Jacques Vallee - The Bizarre Nature of UFOs

Dr. Jacques Vallée seems to have a talent for being in the right place at the right time. He was a newcomer at a French observatory when he saw evidence of a UFO incident being tossed aside, and it ignited a lifelong interest in the phenomenon. He was at Northwestern University working on a precursor version of what evolved into the internet, earned his PhD in what we now know as artificial intelligence. And he was on the ground in Silicon Valley, guiding investments in companies and ideas that revolutionized modern technology. Throughout the different phases of his life, he’s maintained an abiding interest in the UFO mystery. His work inspired the Lacombe character in Steven Spielberg’s monumental film Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Vallée worked hand in hand with Dr. J. Allen Hynek during and after the infamous Project Blue Book program, has written the most influential books in the history of the UFO subject, was directly involved with research that led to classified projects to train remote viewers, and later had an essential role in Robert Bigelow’s groundbreaking organization (NIDS) as well as the DIA’s classified investigation AAWSAP. So, what is he focusing on these days? Is a form of disclosure on the way? Can Congress force the secret keepers to divulge what they know? Vallée has acknowledged that UFO crashes are real, as are crash retrieval operations, but where are the retrieved articles stored and studied, including the Trinity craft he spent years investigating? In this wide-ranging interview, Jeremy and George ask Ufology’s most serious thinker and writer to address the thorniest issues now facing Congress, the public, and science itself in trying to understand the multiple layers of secrecy and confusion that continue to befuddle scientists, governments, and everyone with a serious interest in figuring out the truth. Dr. Vallée also describes the most significant roadblocks that remain today, and offers advice on how we might move forward. The conversation is long, complex, and serious, much like Vallée himself. GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ••• Watch Corbell's six-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://tubitv.com/series/300002259/tmz-presents-ufo-revolution/season-2⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Watch Knapp’s six-part UFO docuseries titled INVESTIGATION ALIEN on NETFLIX here : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://netflix.com/title/81674441⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ••• You can now watch all of Corbell's movies for free on YouTube here : BOB LAZAR : AREA 51 & FLYING SAUCERS https://youtu.be/sZaE5rIavVA HUNT FOR THE SKINWALKER https://youtu.be/TczkJ6UAQ8A PATIENT SEVENTEEN https://youtu.be/gDVX0kRqXxE ••• For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠WeaponizedPodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Jeremy Corbell?

  1917 and the experience of Thaddeus, where most people, they portrayed it as a cultural or religious event. And you looked at it, you know, from the observations scientifically.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Thaddeus is very deep, both in terms of testimony. I mean, there were 80,000 people there, you know, under the last apparition. They didn't see the virgin. They saw a disc, a silver thing between them and the sun.

• 1:06Jeremy Corbell?

  You showed me a case this morning, something you wanted to talk about. And when you showed me the image, it reminded me of a military image that George and I obtained and released to the public. Can you show me or show our audience that image and why that case is important? The photo that you said you wanted to talk about?

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yes. But what they described to me is a very sophisticated process by which we may be able to interact with the entities.

• 1:38Jeremy Corbell?

  But so you're saying you've been made aware that there is a government project, maybe it was 20 years ago, that was able to establish direct communication with a non-human intelligence and that you believe this information to be true and that this is a reality. This is what you understand to be true. Is that correct?

• 2:01Speaker 02

  I cannot tell. Yes. Yes. It's factual.

• 2:08Jeremy Corbell?

  This is weaponized.

• 2:19George Knapp?

  This is Weaponized. I'm George Knapp, coming to you from Las Vegas. Jeremy Corbell, friend and colleague of mine. How you doing? Great, man. Good to see you. This is a pretty big day for us here. I mean, in the, you know, in the long and tortured history of the UFO subject, investigations into that mystery, as well as offshoot phenomena related to UFOs that are bizarre and frightening on their own, there's, there's no more singular and more important figure than Jacques Vallée. And you and I have talked about this a lot over the years. He's like at the forefront of so many key moments in history, not just UFO history, but history. I mean, in other industries and topics as well. He, he was

• 3:01George Knapp?

  a pioneer in the development of the internet, in the development of AI, which is huge. He was there at key moments in the overall investigation of UFOs, both in France, where he was trained as an astrophysicist, here in the US, and cases all over the place. He was there with J. Allen Hynek on Project Blue Book in the beginning. He became a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley, kind of a key place to be. He's done breakthrough research with NIDS, the organization that was created here in Las Vegas 30 years ago, almost exactly to the day, and with BAS. I mean, BAS, the organization that Robert Bigelow created to handle the contract for the DIA and this OSAP program, half of the budget for that

• 3:46George Knapp?

  program was creating a data warehouse. And Jacques designed it, created it. It is the world's largest UFO data warehouse that we know of, anyway, 260,000 cases. He's done boots-on-the-ground research in Brazil, in Argentina, in France, elsewhere in Europe, and Central America, and South America, all over North America as well. He's been there at the forefront of this topic for as long as, you know, as long as I've known him, which is a heck of a long time, and longer. And, you know, I mean, the books that he has written, if you have a UFO library at home, those are the essential books. Jeremy, you've been to my house. You know the piles of books. I don't even know how many there are here

• 4:30George Knapp?

  in UFOs and related subjects, certainly more than 10,000 or so. That Valet shelf that I've got and the Valet books that are scattered all over the place, that's the, that's the core. That's, that's the core information in the entire library. He's the deepest thinker and probably the best writer on the subject in my estimation in the world. So, you know, getting Jacques Valet on Weaponized is something you and I have imagined and have talked about, but until today, I never really was sure we would do it.

• 5:02Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, you know, as I said in 2019 on the Rogan podcast, it's Jacques fucking Valet. I'm the guy's a legend, you know, he's been involved in this over decades and he has really been a changer. He's changed things up. He shook things up. Specifically, what I mean by that is when everybody was talking about the extraterrestrial hypothesis, you know, he pushed that on its head and came up with the interdimensional idea and he, and in a lot of ways, he's revolutionized the way that we look at the UFO phenomenon. I've got a few key points of why I thought it'd be great to have him on. Now, now, look, he's very mercurial. He's like a jazz musician. He'll talk and, and you have to like listen

• 5:45Jeremy Corbell?

  because he goes, yeah, he wheeze because his life is so rich. He doesn't think about the UFO phenomenon in the same way we do. And, and I think you'll see that in the interview. But I was really excited because as a friend, I've been able to talk with him and correspond and have him to, to my house a couple of times. And I really got the most insight from that is just one-on-one dialogue. But the reason I wanted to have him on today is because a few of the revolutions that he's created in this field is really about when, when we're looking at the government control, he said some very mercurial things over the years. For example, he says that the governments don't control the phenomenon, they react to it, which is contrary to like the conspiratorial assumptions that we all have. Valet concludes

• 6:29Jeremy Corbell?

  often, when you talk with him, the governments are not orchestrating the phenomenon and that they struggle to even understand it themselves. He once said, intelligence agencies collect data, but they do not control the phenomenon and they misinterpret it through their own institutional bias. So I wanted to talk with him because right now there's all this talk that a lot of what we're seeing. Is black budget programs of US technology. Look, I wish that was true. He has definitively proven through his research over the decades that this phenomenon is pervasive, it's persistent, it's unusual, that it's got extreme depth and it's got a ever-changing characteristic to it.

• 7:14Jeremy Corbell?

  He said, "A secret program cannot explain identical phenomena reported centuries before aviation across rival nations and in eras with no technological infrastructure capable of producing such effects." He's told us for decades that this cannot be explained with military, government, craft, and that sort of thing. So having him on today, I think is really important, especially in the era that we're in, because he sees the real mystery not just being the craft themselves, but what he calls the interface, the human interface. He once said, Jacques Vallée once said, "The most important data may not be what the objects are made of, but how they change us." And I just thought that was such a cool and mercurial way to look at it.

• 7:59Jeremy Corbell?

  So this is Jacques Vallée on Weaponized, a dream come true. Excited to have you, Jacques.

• 8:05George Knapp?

  Well, Dr. Vallée, it's Jeremy and I have been looking forward to speaking to you on Weaponized for a long time. You and I spoke a few months ago, earlier this year, but there's always so much more to ask. I'd like to get your impressions of current events, Congress. So we've had five hearings since 2017, public hearings. Do you see value in those hearings? Because it seems like the members of Congress are frustrated that they're not quite getting what they want. And can you reflect on your own experience with Congress? 1968, you were involved in that first hearing. Were you hopeful back then? Are you hopeful now that congressional investigation

• 8:50George Knapp?

  might actually lead somewhere?

• 8:53Speaker 02

  I did not participate, I was not asked to participate in the latest hearings. I was asked to meet with the experts for the Intelligence Committees, as an extension of the work I had done with PAS, and in terms of background data that the committee could use and should know about. So I went to Washington, spent a couple of hours

• 9:34Speaker 02

  with the staffer of the Intelligence Committee, which is a very impressive place in Washington.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Obviously, we went over a lot of details and so on. So my impression is that Congress is doing this with a number of people who are knowledgeable about the long-term research, and they are building some of the database that they can use to place the new information. And I think that's the right thing to do, is to backfill versus the new testimony coming in, which is what we see, what you, George, and both of you participated in.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  So I'm hopeful that that's... I had experience with congressional hearings before, twice. And that's sort of funny. The first time was, as you know, I've worked extensively in the early days of the Internet and the ARPANET, and that raised a lot of questions for Congress about where this was going and what they should be funding.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Mr. Kennedy, in those days, had a hearing with, that involved the post office and all the things, to see what the impact, and so that was my experience going to Washington to testify and to be parts of those discussions, both official and back, you know, discussions about the impact that the network, if it developed, would have on the post office. And that was very interesting, because I was there, you know, there were two of us who were considered, you know, internet experts.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Everybody else was with different communication companies and the post office. And the consensus was that they could wait and that the technology would help them and so on. I had concerns about that, because I could see how fast the network was going to develop, and especially develop in terms of message systems and systems like what we're using now. And the, you know, I approached some of the people there, saying, "Look, you know, we should, we should also consider that first-class mail is going to disappear."

• 12:32Speaker 02

  I mean, when is the last time you put a stamp on a letter, on the handwriting of the letter that you mailed? Okay, and the answer was, "Look, one in every worker in the US, one in every 100 workers in the US works for the post office, directly or indirectly. So we're not going to raise that question now." So the the message I got from that is that, yes, they they know the some of the answers. They understand very well what's going on.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  But they it has to be balanced with the social reality and, you know, the bureaucratic reality of of the whole country. And I I was reminded of that by some of the discussion that, you know, that you guys participated in, that watching the reaction of the congressmen. I I think they they they understand what's going on, but those meetings are not science meetings. They are not technology meetings. And a lot of people want to talk about technology, and that's not what Congress is about.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  I mean, Congress is about adjusting the laws of the country and managing the social reactions to events. And, you know, many of these people have a background in law or business, not not in mathematics or astronomy. So that's that's important to know, you know, and and to understand the the problem they have in taking the the the data that, you know, that that they get from us or from the

• 14:30Speaker 02

  UFO community and and then managing it properly so that, you know, the community can understand. But I always remember that that comment about the post office. Yes, of course, they're going to lose all first-class mail in a few, just a few years. And my point was they should concentrate on packages because people will want to send more packages because there will be much more communication. And all the first-class communication is going to be with the software that we are developing. Which is what's what's actually, you know, what went on?

• 15:14Speaker 02

  And, uh, yes, today they, uh, you know, the post office manages a lot of packages, but most of that business has gone to private companies. The FedEx being the first. Yeah, so they've lost that market. They've lost the leadership of that market.

• 15:33Jeremy Corbell?

  You, you see, you saw hearings happen in the sixties and George is telling me about that with J. Allen Hynek and there was two congressional hearings. But now we've had a number of modern day hearings with people coming forward. Do you feel those are valuable? Do you think these hearings are good for the UFO topic for the American public? That we're doing that again since the sixties?

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Well, in, in part, uh, I think this is backfield. Because there is a new generation of people discovering UFOs on, on the web on, you know, and they don't know the, the depth of the information and who was involved and what was done. So if you suddenly try to make a decision, uh, about publication of certain things and so on, people, you know, might not understand the context. And I think what they are doing, which is wise, is to expose the public to the, the, the context of all of that.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  I think when George spoke about Russia, about the documents from Russia. Uh, as you know, I've been in, in contact with, in those days. I, I don't plan to go back now, but in those days I was in, in contact with some of the same people and, and the scientists. And Russia was surprisingly open at that point. You know, at certain times, they, there were some openings. When, um, you know, when I went there, there were three different. Scientific panels looking at UFOs from different areas. And so all of that needs to be brought up so that people are, you know,

• 17:27Speaker 02

  the culture is brought in at the same time.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  We're still waiting, as you said, it's been five years. We're still waiting for the pièce de résistance, for the real thing that we can, that science can look at.

• 17:50George Knapp?

  Do you see any chance, any hope, that Congress will be able to pierce that veil of secrecy and find out where the goodies are stored? If in fact we have non-human intelligence and non-human intelligence and technology, is Congress the way to go? It seems to me there is value in the hearings, even if members of Congress are frustrated because they can't get to that point, that the keepers of the secrets are never going to give this up, not even to Congress. What do you think?

• 18:28Speaker 02

  As you know, I was a member of the Neds organization, of the Science Board for Neds in Las Vegas, with Mr. Begolo and the team. And then of the BAS project, which was sponsored by the government.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  My area of responsibility was, together with the team that they recruited, was about half of the budget. People have spoken about some of the things that were, you know, some of the investigations that were done and so on. Nothing has been said about the database, which was really a data warehouse that we built. Um, the idea that that I proposed and that I initiated was a three-stage process. Um, on the computer, we recruited, you know, about twenty-five to thirty people

• 19:39Speaker 02

  who were investigators, translators. We had translators from French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Russian. Uh, we took a number of databases that I donated to the project and a number of others with their own that were brought in. And we we built a data warehouse of fourteen databases communicating among them. And that that project was going to go into a second phase. We ended up with two hundred and sixty thousand filtered, you know, cases

• 20:18Speaker 02

  for which there was real information out of, you know, all the things that are floating around. And in, you know, in in those several languages and countries. The the the next phase in the plan was to reduce that to, you don't need two hundred and sixty thousand cases. You need maybe fifty thousand filtered cases where you maximize the information that you can you can get. And, uh, we had, uh, you know, a process of selection we were going to go through.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  And this has been published, by the way, uh, in, uh, in in a couple of books that have come out. But you collaborated with George. Your name is on on the first one. So I'm not, you know, uh, disseminating any great secret, but the information was is still classified. Now, without that second phase of data reduction and data improvement and cleaning, the database is useless. Okay, it's, uh, you can, yeah, you can put AI on top of it, but the AI is going to go, you know, off the road. Uh, because, you know, too much of it is.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Information that looks like it's relevant to UFOs, it may be marginally relevant, but it's not what you're looking for, you know, in science. And so whoever has that now, um, you know, it doesn't know what the plan, the real plan was. So the plan was a data reduction and then two years of AI. In other words, I was told that you have five years. So I said, two years to for data gathering around the world and translation so that everything is in English. Um, and then, uh, one year of data filtering and improvement.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  And then we'll have two years for AI. And then we'll get,

• 22:36Speaker 02

  you know, we'll drive it to the point where we have the basic answers to the the nature of the the data itself at the ground level. Not just, you know, pilot data, not just some, you know, astronomical pictures and so on, but the real data in the field. And, uh,

• 23:01Speaker 02

  we don't know where that is. You know, the, the, the project was cut off. Um, usually, as you know, I had allowances on

• 23:14Speaker 02

  other projects at, at Stanford Research Institute, working with Dr. Putoff and, and his team and so on. And, uh, at the end of the project, I was debriefed. Uh, and there was a second project with Ed May. Uh, and again, I was debriefed. Here, I, I wasn't debriefed, so I, I called Dr. Putoff, I called Dr. Keller. They haven't been debriefed either. So we don't even know what's still classified and what's not classified. So I'm treating essentially everything we did, including the data, as classified. And I respect that.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  But there is a deeper problem here. That in the military area,

• 24:08Speaker 02

  you need, if you're developing, if we're developing a new rocket, it needs to be classified,

• 24:18Speaker 02

  at least throughout the development project. When you start testing it, people will understand that there is a new technology. But all you need is, you know, you're going to call two of your friends who are experts in propulsion and one who is expert in optics and one who is expert in electronics, and, you know, six or seven people, and you can keep the secret. And you'll be funded to develop that particular weapon or that particular instrument.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  That's not true with UFOs. I mean, the information is in the mind of the farmer I'm going to meet somewhere, you know, in Kansas. And as you know, I've spent a lot of my time going to meet people at their farm or in their house, gathering that kind of information. It's not what Congress is looking at. They are looking at pictures from fighter planes and satellites and all that. And they are looking mainly at the military because there is this idea

• 25:35Speaker 02

  that the phenomenon may be a threat, which is a valuable, you know, idea to look at. But that's not all. I mean, in many of the cases I have,

• 25:50Speaker 02

  that Amark published, the thing was not a threat. It was minding its own business. You know, it appears, and it's not something you're going to track out of space with a telescope. It appears as a point of light. And people are intrigued by the point of light. And then it expands into, you know, a, a, an area of light. And then out of that emerges something that looks like a craft. And then it lands. Uh, it may be forty feet in, in diameter and it makes an impact on the ground. I mean, the case in Valensol, you know, is a perfect case.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  It, you know, and, um, so you can, you can analyze with soil. We've done all of that, but it's not something you can track, that anybody can track with a telescope. And, uh, in the, the case in Valensol, there is a very good movie now about Valensol. Um, the, um, when I, I met with, with the witness, spent three days there with, with the witness. And it took us to the place and I said, well, you know, how, how did it go away? And he said, well, it, it lifted and then it went off at an angle and then it vanished.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  And I said, well, do you mean it vanished by just accelerating? He said, no, it just wasn't there anymore. Okay, so, and I have a number of cases like that, that I've, that the people did not want to publish. Uh, so I've, I've kept them, uh, but very well described and very well. You know, I'm in Silicon Valley, so people have been in Silicon Valley for forty years. Uh, I funded about seventy companies with my, you know, with my friends from a number of funds. Uh, within that community, people know me pretty well.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  So I've had a number of CEOs come in to me saying, you know, you know, we have a, a house on the coast and me and my family, you know, we've seen something. And, uh, and I say, well, can I, can I, uh, publish it? Can I put it there? He said, no, you know, I'm, the, I'm running a company.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  And people cannot, you know, people on Wall Street has to know that I'm, I'm a serious guy. And I run into that situation all the time. So Congress does not have that information.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  They may have it from other people. They may have that kind of information, but so far they've only concentrated on, on the, the armed forces, because again, the, the motivation is in, in order to, to get, um, you know, funding for anything, the, the best way to do it is to say this is a potential threat. Now, in the rest of the world, people are not treating it as a threat. You know, the, the Russians never thought it was a threat. I mean, you, you and they are George. They, they, their attitude, some of the scientists have spoken to,

• 29:26Speaker 02

  was, you know, this is a fascinating phenomenon and we should study it because we're going to learn something important about physics. And, um, there is no, none of that filter that, that we, we have here. The same thing in France. You know, the, the official group studying it is, uh, the, the French Science Agency. That's been, you know, since the days of Claude Porair, in the late, in the early seventies, you know, has been consistently just, uh, taking reports from the, from the public and, uh,

• 30:12Speaker 02

  sending people there to do analysis and so on. And, you know, I've worked, I've been working with them on enough for a number of, of years. Uh, and, uh, that's not considered necessarily as a threat or as a, as a military subject. The military is obviously interested, uh, interested in the potential technologies that could be derived from it. But they, the, the public is still seeing it as, um, you know, more like an extension of science fiction, you know, wouldn't it be nice to?

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Know what else is in the universe.

• 30:57Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah. Um, Jacques, I got a question. For for fifty years, you've been looking at this problem not just as technological, but also as cultural. A lot of your writing is about that. And I I want to talk about that. But a lot of people like me, we get introduced to this through the nuts and bolts, the the technology. There's rumors that the United States government has been able to reverse engineer what we call UFOs. Do you have any personal knowledge if we've made any headway? You say as a as a scientist, you say it's important that we can look at this to be able to reverse engineer it. That's what a scientist would want to do. Have we been successful? Has the United States? Do do we have craft

• 31:41Jeremy Corbell?

  that traverse the cosmos because we've reversed engineered them from UFOs? Or is that mythology as far as you're concerned?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  The the investment community, the venture capital community in California is is a sophisticated community and it has its own way of keeping secrets and exchanging secrets because a secret that you keep is is pretty useless in business. You know, you're you're at the end of the day, you have to be able to sell something that people like or want. And so there is a network and, you know, someone you know who used to be with the CIA for a long time told me,

• 32:32Speaker 02

  you know, don't think that we have these great secrets first in Washington. We we find a technology when we come to San Jose that could be applicable to something we do. And then we, you know, we we use it, we take it, we use it. We may classify some applications of it. But you guys have been working on it, you know, openly for two years and there may even so there there is even the curve that people look at of of patents, you know, you have patent one, two and three about the new technology. And then all of a sudden.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Nothing is published for ten years and then some product comes out that everybody thinks is extraordinary. Well, what happened during those ten years when nothing was published? And there are a number of areas in science like that that you can look at. It's very interesting. Well, for ten years it was classified. It was then, you know, in some lab somewhere, maybe at Los Salamos, maybe at Batel, maybe it, and they developed it into something that could be a product. Either a product for a computer you're going to buy. I mean, it's

• 34:01Speaker 02

  or it could be, it could be a product that will go into a new weapon system. So if in Silicon Valley, if you're trusted, they, you know, people don't sign special contracts or secrecy things and so on. But if, if, if you're told something which is sensitive and you don't keep it to yourself or you don't then you can't be trusted and you're not going to, you know, it's like Hollywood, you know, you're not go

• 34:43Speaker 02

  you go eat lunch in San Jose, you know, next year. And that's the way the system works. It works on trust. And people think Silicon Valley is all new stuff. It's not new stuff. It goes way back. You know, it goes back to actually before World War Two. So those, those relationships of trust are very deep. And people talk about UFOs within those relationships.

• 35:13Jeremy Corbell?

  I'm just asking you, have we reverse engineered technology from non-human intelligence? Do you have knowledge of that? Have we done that?

• 35:23Speaker 02

  So, and I, I wanted to get back to that. If, if we had, there are, there would be signs that would be

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Visible, you know, certainly in Silicon Valley and in other places. There would be repercussions, you would see.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  And, you know, that's one of, you know, i- i- if you read espionage novels, I mean, that's a typical thing. Of claiming that you know something to illicit information from witnesses or from other people or agents. Or, and there are a number of things that have intrigued me that the, in documents that we've looked at. You know, within Meds and Mass, we've looked at the number of, quote, official documents that had very surprising thing.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  You know, the MJ12 documents, massive, and they contain a lot of that. Where we can trace historically to an authentic document somewhere. And then along the way, somebody talks about flying saucers. And where did that come from? So, did General Eisenhower, was he briefed about flying saucers?

• 37:01Speaker 02

  And so you have all these rumors and someone, you know, explained to me that if you suspect that there is someone within an organization who is an agent from a foreign power. And you want to know, say, you know, a scientist at Los Alamos, who's in a classified project. You want to know if he's likely to leak information somewhere. You can plant a document that comes to his knowledge and has a number of keywords.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  And then you have somebody in Czechoslovakia who looks at what comes in within a particular

• 37:53Speaker 02

  group or particular office. Then if you see that keyword coming up, then you can, you have two, two parts of the link. You know, I I've never been trained to learn about those things, but those are tricks that, and we know, you know, I'm not going to use any names, but we know people within the UFO community who were tasked to work with researchers and so on, to help do exactly that, get documents and solve them. I was told by a member of the Academy of Sciences who had worked on UFOs.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  I I I asked him about the way the database from BAS had vanished essentially. And he said, well, you know, it may be reborn somewhere

• 39:00Speaker 02

  in a sordid state. And I asked what he meant, because I had never understood, I had never heard that concatenation of words. And he said, well, you know, you you you take data and you want to know who is going to use it, so you you you change the data. And then you you alter the data or you destroy the data, so that if it shows up somewhere, you know, you know, how it was, how it was leaked or how it was used. And that,

• 39:42Speaker 02

  you know, I don't know about those techniques. I've never been trained in in that that kind of, you know, that kind of skill. And of course, that would explain why scientists don't want to get into this business, because this is not the way science is done. You know, if I, if, as you know, I I've Turned over all my samples to Dr. Nolan at Stanford, so that we can continue to do the investigations together about those cases. We've started to publish, as you know, in the number one aerospace journal about the analysis of some of those cases.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  And, uh, you know, it's all cases where I have verified their history. I verified the, you know, where they came from and how they were acquired to the best of my ability. And he knows that, okay, and he can, he knows he can trust that. Uh, of course, you know, we're

• 40:50Speaker 02

  we may discover something in the analysis that tells us more about

• 40:57Speaker 02

  where it may have occurred naturally or whatever. That doesn't mean that all of it is valid, you know, UFO data. But, uh, at least the, the data is clean to this level. Uh, he knows I'm not salting the, you know, the stones or the data, you know. Uh, and, uh, that's the way you do science. You know, if, if those games are being played, as they seem to have been played with the BASS project in Las Vegas, then the data is useless, which means we have to start from the beginning.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  But George, you know, it's been fourteen years since the end of the BASS project. Fourteen years during which that database of two hundred and sixty thousand cases has disappeared. Now suppose that somebody has a database and they may be very good people somewhere in a classified project and they want to use it. You know, in fourteen years, many of those witnesses have died. They've moved, you can't find them anymore, you know. How are you going to validate the data? Because there, there are, there are cases where you need to go back and find additional witnesses, you know, from that area.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Well, all that is done. So. If somebody wanted to essentially derail the study we were doing, that would have been the way to do it. Okay, even if you went to a new group of scientists, they didn't have the the internal plan for the how the AI was going to be applied to the project. So what I'm doing is, you know, I have all the data.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  It's not as good as, of course, as what Bas had done, that I have the original data that I had donated to the project, that I have the right to use it. And then a lot of it is actually public data. But, you know, I spent, as you know, a lot of years compiling it and reducing it to the right format. So I've restarted to work on it, but to work on it by myself now. Fortunately, you know, computers now are much more capable and they are, they have primitive AI. And, you know, my PhD was in AI from the days of Dr. Heineck.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  So I I understand what you can, what you can do with hard physical data.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  And I'm I'm doing it on my own now, just out of curiosity for the years that I may, I I may still have. And I'm I'm going to start publishing some results from from that, you know, as as time goes on. The first one was the the presentation I made at SAU, you know, a few weeks ago in Italy about that that case, which is actually in, you know, in in the in the report from.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  From the Comden Report, that nobody has noticed, because it's in the appendix of the Comden Report, everybody threw that out, because they thought there was nothing there. Well, this is a case that's unidentified after extensive study by the Comden Committee, both physicists and the social sciences guys, with analysis, with infrared photographs from aircraft at night and so on, over that forest.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  And I have the wood, you know, I still have, not here, it's a safe place, but I have the wood that was impacted by the radiation from that object, which was an object in the forest. The witness was a nuclear physicist, so I put him in touch with Comden. Dr. Heinich and I were the first scientists, were called to testify, you know, in Boulder, before the Comden Committee, to brief them on the history of all that. And I'm going to continue that study.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  We want to get the data from the wood. The data, we've looked at it in France, we published that paper with my French physics colleagues, and it was taken to Saclay in France, which is the main atomic research facility. And we think that within the wood, there are layers of radiation intensity. The witness saw the object pulsating, and the calculations on the energy would give you something equivalent to the energy of the reactor at Diablo Canyon.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  In a sort of ball of light in a clearing in a pine forest at night when it was raining, temperature was close to zero, I mean to freezing. And the the the thing was pulsating, but it was no more than two or three meters in diameter.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  The witness being a a nuclear physicist, young professor at a local university, um, you know, got the hell out of there. He was just driving home with his family. And all that was published in the Condon Report. No, not not all of that, because they continued to do the research afterwards. Um, they took wood from the the trees that had been burned, but it was it's not a burn, it's a radiation impact. Uh, so they took the the the bark and bark from the intact part of the tree.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  And they sent it to the government, you know, radiation expertise lab that returned it with no comment. They obviously had looked at it and didn't want to be involved. So I I called the witnesses and I said, can I have it? This was a few years after the sighting. And they said, sure. So they they sent it to me and I've kept it ever since. So we have the report from the witness uh, who had computed the the energy. And Dr. Condon recomputed the energy and found twice as much

• 48:30Speaker 02

  from the the actual distances and so on, after they they had done. That's in the Condon Report.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  And again, that's a case that's not that ufologists have never talked about.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  So I have all the data, so I'm going to continue working on it. And I really don't need anybody else. I mean, I don't need, you know, a big group. I don't need funding. I don't need anything. I can just go ahead, go ahead with my friends and do that.

• 49:05George Knapp?

  You wrote a book about a crash at Trinity, nineteen forty five. It's eighty years ago. Where is that? They didn't just take it to the dump and cover it with dirt. Where is that object? Where, hangar eighteen? Where do they keep it? And in the same vein, I mean.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  It was taken to Los Alamos, which is a logical place to take it.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  The, the, the book, when it first came out, was, you know, Trinity, was with, with Paula Harris, who had done four years of investigation before I got involved. So, which is valuable because at that time, both of the witnesses were alive. By the time I got involved, Remi had died. But, you know, one, the one witness is still, you know, very much, very much alive. And, you know, and the book was criticized with some flaws.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  In my, you know, I mean, it's my fault not digging fast enough or deep enough into the actual documents. A critic, you know, a good critic, good skeptic, there are good skeptics, the ones who actually do the work, went and got a number of documents that showed that there were some inaccuracies in what I had published.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  Now, that happens in science. I mean, it happened to Einstein, so, you know, I'm not going to apologize too much for that, but I did go back. And now we have four more years of of research on it. And we have verified, you know, all the information we could. There are two cases where um he's right about the actual name of the policeman who was there was not the name that the witness remembered. Okay, well, the witness is a little bit older than I am and uh you know, memory uh plays games, but he was there with another policeman.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Uh, and, you know, little by little, we've we've done all that. So we've republished the book now with with a lot more information that answers all those all those questions.

• 51:34George Knapp?

  But after eighty years, the government has not acknowledged that as being real. It doesn't tell us where that is. I think about Steven Spielberg, uh, his magnificent film Close Encounters. La Combe, the character based on you, arranges this meeting with aliens. If that event happened today, I don't believe the public would ever hear about it. Just as we have not heard about the object that crashed at Trinity for eighty years. Um, can you address the idea of secrecy? Whether some level of secrecy is necessary? And where are we ever going to learn, um, you know, the the physical objects are real, that the government's been stashing them away?

• 52:19George Knapp?

  And no matter how many times Congress asks questions or holds hearings, they're not going to tell us.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Well, some of them.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Are real, and I respect that the research has been done by the, you know, Mufan and Kufas and Apro especially and so on. They've gone to the site, they've interviewed the people, they've seen the traces. I've done some of that, you know, with colleagues.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Recently, you know, well, you can still go to the site, some, enough of the witnesses are still alive, that you can get your own data and make up your own, you know, your own decision about that. But I think a number of those cases are fake, or they were, that doesn't mean that there wasn't an official report, that there had been a UFO. But, you know, I remember that discussion with Dr. Heinecke, you know, that there are

• 53:39Speaker 02

  cases, that there are cases in the Blue Book files that are unidentified and classified, very few of them. Most of the Blue Book files were unclassified from the beginning. That was the whole point, was to reassure the public. No scientist bothered to look at them, except Heinecke and me and Dr. McDonald.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  But in those, in those cases, you know, the classified cases, you know, I asked Dr. Heinecke, well, you know, when, why is this particular case classified? Don't tell me if it's, you know, if there is something really secret, but, and he laughed. He said, well, you know, this is, in the very early days, this woman in Alaska saw a light in the sky, that was a big light at sunset, that was flying, and it was flying from east to west, over Alaska.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Well, you know, what would be flying from east to west at very high altitude over Alaska in the 50s? Well, it would be an early U2. The air force knew that. It was reported as a UFO. So they, you know, they, they labeled it as unidentified UFO. And they, you know, kept it as classified. So if you look at the file now, if somebody, you know, innocently goes back to the file, which are still there, they find this classified case, which by now has been declassified.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  And they find this, this UFO over Alaska, they're, they're, you know, they are going to be very intrigued. If they don't know the backstory, that, you know, this woman innocently had detected, you know, a secret CIA aircraft. And of course, it's unidentified. So you have to get into the details. You have to do the, you have to do the, the homework, you know, as, as you guys have done. And that's, that's how you get to the, to the truth, instead of, you know, going off on a tangent somewhere.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  But it, you know, it takes time and it, you, you need to have the trust. And it's all about trust. The fact that the, um, that there is something unique somewhere doesn't really, you, you have to, you cannot base it on secrecy because sooner or later, somebody is going to sell it to somebody. I mean, you know, too many spies in Washington and so on. They, you know, that, again, that information will be sorted and changed and used. And that, that world is, that's not a world where you can do science.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  It's not a world where you can advance knowledge. Knowledge is based on trust. So

• 57:20Speaker 02

  if you want to build something that really changes world, it's not by spreading misinformation around or making making little secrets look like big secrets because sooner or later you'll be caught. I mean, that's not the way to do it.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  I think that in this, again, there is a place for secrecy that I respect. There is a place for classification of of certain things that I respect and I've always followed.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  But this is too big. I mean, it involves too many countries. It involves if if we keep secrets, the French are going to keep secrets. They already do. The Russians, certainly, are going to keep secrets and the Chinese even more. And then where do we go? I mean, everybody has part of the information.

• 58:20Jeremy Corbell?

  Jeremy? Yeah, so Jacques, I wanted to talk with you a little bit about these days. A lot of people are saying that the UAP we're seeing are reverse engineered black projects. I gather from your answer that you don't think we've made a lot of progress with reverse engineering the technology over the last 50 years you've been studying this. But more importantly, you say this is not a modern phenomenon, that it crosses all cultures and all time, that the UFO phenomenon is persistent, global and adaptive. That's something you talk about. And you've really you've really proven that case by going back into antiquity in a couple

• 59:03Jeremy Corbell?

  of your books and talking about how people are seeing the same things back then that they're seeing now. One of those cases that you wrote about, and I wanted just to hear about it from you, is 1917 and and the experience of Fatima, where most people, they portrayed it as a cultural or religious event. And you looked at it, you know, from the observations scientifically. Can you tell me how cases like Fatima in 1917, how they relate to the modern day UFO thing? Explain to us what happened in Fatima.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  How much time do we have? No, Fatima is very deep. Both in terms of testimony, I mean, there were eighty thousand people there. You know, on the last apparition.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  They didn't see the virgin. They saw a disk. A silver thing between them and the sun.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  And everything dried up. It had been raining and everything dried up very quickly. Which was surprising. And the social environment was remarkable, was really remarkable.

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  It started by three shepherds. Seeing just a ball of light. And then messages coming from an entity in that ball of light.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Primarily to one of them, Lucia. Who was, these were kids, I mean, they were ten, twelve, thirteen. Just guarding the sheep. It's a scenario with fairly poor vegetation, but they do have agriculture and sheep and goats. That's the setting where it took place.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  I went there with my wife and saw the basilica that has been built there. And also saw the, you know, the area that really hasn't changed very much in terms of the vegetation and so on. And by coincidence, it was also a day where there was alternate rain and sunshine.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  The second, so first, they, they, they saw this and then they, they had a number of meetings every month on the same day of the month. So, uh, but some months are thirty days, some are thirty-one days. Well, it was always the same day, so, you know, whatever that phenomenon is, it has the same calendar we do.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  Which is, again, one of those things you had, you know, why would that be? Uh, which may, of course, make people suspicious of the authorities. So, uh, it built up. It came to a point where more and more people were going there and the authorities were concerned because people say, "Well, Portugal, you know, that this is a super Catholic country. Uh, they believe in all those miracles." Well, the government in, in Portugal at the time in nineteen seventeen was socialist. They were not believers, they were not Christians.

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  They were, uh, they, they were rather with, you know, more the, the Leninist, you know, current in all of Europe and so on. Uh, they, of course, nineteen seventeen is the time of the Russian Revolution. So you have that coincidence of different things. They tried to prevent people from going back to the place and that didn't work. That at the last predicted, you know, apparition, uh, there were so many thousand people coming from all over Portugal

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  with, you know, a, a donkey in a cart carrying food and so on for the travel and, and, uh, you know, entire families and they were there. And that's what the photographs show. They show this large crowd at the site. And then at the indicated time, the sun was covered by a, a disc you could look at without being blinded, a silver disc. And then, uh, they were rotating beams of color.

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  Around, around that. There were, I, I have here, you know, the, the, the books are behind me and in front of me. And I have ten books about Fatih Mabit were mostly written by experts hired by the church or by

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  churchmen who were there, who had interviewed the people.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  There were also non-believers. There were two scientists there who described what they saw as everybody was, was kneeling, you know, around praying around them. When the, the, these beams were going, they described it as collimated beams. Uh, which is a, you know, a, a perfect physical description of it in physics. So tho- those were, again, this is in the language of, you know, a, a physics professor. Uh, so they were not believers. They were just describing an actual phenomenon.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  There, there is testimony from somebody who was not interested in miracles. He was working in the fields, couple of miles away. He saw the sun was still in the sky. And he saw a disk between the sun and the crowd. And he testified to the ex. Unfortunately, there were no photographs in those days. It would have been very, very hard to have a camera that could capture that. There are photographs of the crowd, but not of the phenomenon itself, unfortunately. So, um, I, Professor Misson, who is a physicist, uh, and a ufologist from Belgium.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  I, I've worked with him over the years. Uh, we. And we disagreed about Fatima, and he said that Fatima was an aftereffect in the eyes of people from staring at the sun because of the atmosphere being so thin. Well, when I was there, it had just been raining. There was a lot of water vapor in the atmosphere. I was there with my wife, and I stared at the sun a little bit too long. And I didn't have rotating beams, but I, I obviously saw colors and so on. I mean, obviously, it, you know, saturated my retina.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Uh, so I, I, I didn't stare at it, obviously. But I could understand that, you know, the, the atmosphere was very special, very thin, very saturated, and it could have done that. So, um, I don't know where I stand about Fatima. But I, you know, I, I, I, I got more books. And there is a book that was written about the miracle of nineteen fifteen, two years before. Two years before, three shepherds in the same area,

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  um, in the same conditions, including one of those who were at Fatima um, in two years later. Um, saw a globe of light, not the sun, the globe of light that came to the prairie, to the, to the field. And out of that globe of light stepped a, a human.

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  Uh, angel, they perceived it as an angel. He gave them the feeling that he was an angel and he taught them a prayer. And he said that should keep praying that particular prayer. And they, uh, when it rained, they would go into a cave that was there. Of course, the sheep didn't care, uh, and they, you know, they wouldn't lose them. And they went into that cave and they were praying and praying and going into sort of a second state.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  And they reported that and, you know, it was dismissed and there were no other witnesses. I find that interesting because very often in those, in prominent UFO cases, what you have to do is ask what happened before. Well, two years before the miracle at Fatima, there was this apparition of this being, uh, of this creature who came out of, essentially, uh, uh, you know, a globe of lights.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  Well, you know, we're getting reports now about globes of light moving around orbs. Now we call them orbs, so we have a new word for that. Uh, in those days, it was just a globe of light, you know, up to two meters in diameter. Well, you know, that's a complex series of, of things. Um, of course, the impact of Fatima, like the impact of the miracles in Mexico and so on.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Has been enormous. So, and it's in many ways for a scientist, you know, there isn't much more that you can do. Uh, but the, the, the impact on

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  humanity has been, has been, you know, important. The impact of belief, uh, the year again was the year of the communist revolution in Russia. Uh, the, uh, Maria, uh, thought that she had communicated. She had heard communication from the virgin. The virgin appeared to her, not to her cousins who were with her. Um, who saw the globe.

• 1:11:05Speaker 02

  Uh, and I think one of them saw the lady, but didn't hear the message.

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  One of the messages was that Russia would be converted. Again, it was nineteen seventeen in a country with a socialist government that had forbidden people from coming there to see the alleged miracle. And they couldn't stop, you know, eighty thousand people. So,

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  you know, that's part of our history. It's, it's part of UFO history. We can't just, you know, forget it. I mean, that kind of thing is, is important. The, the thing that, you know, that movie that was made about the case in Argentina is extraordinary because he, you know, he started, uh, making a movie about local traditions, local beliefs of the Indians.

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  And this funny story about UFO. I told him it's not a funny story at all. It's a complex story and it's relevant. But, you know, he wanted to come interview me in San Francisco. And I said, well, for the same price, I can go to Buenos Aires. I still speak a little Spanish. And if you give me time, I'll relearn enough Spanish to talk to the witness directly. And, you know, he changed the thrust of the movie.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  And I think he's captured exactly what the problem is. And the message from the local people is what has touched me the most. You know, that we misunderstand all of that. We really misunderstand all of it by immediately translating it as a threat. And I think there are cases where people have been injured. There is a potential that it could be a threat. There is radiation from it.

• 1:13:31Speaker 02

  I mean, that's well recognized in that last latest case I published. You know, with Dr. Nolan and with the group. The...

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  Maybe they don't care.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  We don't know what they are doing. I think the other cases that I'm looking at that are the very special cases. Where you will notice that that case in from 1966 or 67. The skeptics have not attacked it. You know, they have not...

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  They have not attacked me on that basis because they know better. This is a case that has gone through the Academy of Sciences. Okay, after study by Dr. Comden.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  Who is regarded as someone who dismissed UFOs. Okay, so you you get into the deep stuff, you know, when you touch those cases and they are complex, but if you if you can array the the right tools and and the right science around it, you can get to the truth. And that's what, um, you know, we've done with with Trinity. And um, I think that that story is not over.

• 1:15:01George Knapp?

  Let me try this again about the idea of disclosure. Lacome, the character in in Close Encounters, based on your life, arranges and and coordinates this meeting between humans and non-humans. And it's the start of a beautiful friendship, we hope. There's exchanges there. If that happened today in real life, we would not be told. Your friend, Dr. Hal Podoff, our mutual friend, has admitted in a in a film that recently came out and in public presentations, that he was part of a brain trust during the first Bush administration, the dad, not the son, where they all got together, these brainiacs and experts, they looked at all the evidence about the effects of disclosure. And at the

• 1:15:45George Knapp?

  end of it, even somebody like Hal said, I don't think it's a good idea. Uh, we we shouldn't do it. Well, last time you and I spoke, Jock, back in April, I asked you the question about it, and you said, we need to have some discussion before we just disclose. We need to consider the potential impact. You know what the reaction was? People wanted to scalp me and probably do worse to you. Have you thought about disclosure, how it could happen, and how far we should go? Do you believe, as Hal and his colleagues did, that it probably could be disastrous and have terrible effects?

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  We have to take, well, let me go back a little bit. I knew about that meeting when it happened in Washington. It wasn't a secret meeting. It was just, you know, one of those meetings that are done for, essentially for backfill of information and testing of ideas and so on. So it happens frequently in futures research. You know, you simulate a situation. We did that when I was at the Institute for the Future. We would get experts together frequently, you know,

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  and present them with a future technology and see what their reaction might be, or simulated future technology. We did that with video conferencing a long time ago. And we've published all that. And I have some problems with that meeting. Because, yes, that's a logical conclusion. And I understand, I had other friends in that meeting and they say the same thing that Hal says. And they agree with the conclusion.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  I've done studies of crises

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  in other areas and reactions to crises.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  You know, I had a little computer company for a while and was asked to testify about, you know, what happens during nuclear, industrial nuclear crises, like through my life, and how we can mitigate those crises. Well, my little company was running, it wasn't secret, but it wasn't advertised. But we were funded by the nuclear industry.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  Civilian nuclear industry for three years to manage nuclear crises. Now, Three Mile Island was known to the public, it was on TV and so on, because it wasn't contained within the company. There were people in other companies who had experienced the same failure and they knew how to fix it. Except that they didn't have access to that particular company. There are two hundred companies in the US running some sort of nuclear, nuclear plant or nuclear applications to, you know, electrical current. And to generate electrical current, so

• 1:19:28Speaker 02

  they didn't communicate. And as a result of Three Mile Island, the industry got together and said, we need to establish a link. And we had, at the time, we were pounders in, in computer conferencing and we had a system to, to link together up to fifty four online, simultaneously fifty four individuals or groups. So they funded us for three years. We had the dedicated computer, they did nothing but that. And we solved and extinguished a number of alerts

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  that never became known to the press or the public because there was a simple way to fix it or there was a technical way to fix it that prevented a crisis after an incident or an accident.

• 1:20:31Speaker 02

  The accident would be reported, the incident could be solved technically, you know, by people knowing the information. They knew the information through our computer. So we, we ran that, that thing for three years and then we sold it to a larger company that's still running it. We had five countries, by the way, linked into this.

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  Because they couldn't afford, the industry couldn't afford another three mile island. You know, it would have stopped nuclear power as an industry. Um, because it's scary. So I, I had the experience of, of that. Now, what does it take to, uh, present that to the public? It takes, again, the key, the coin of the realm is trust. Um, you know, I'm old enough to remember the end of World War Two. I was born at the beginning of World War Two. I don't remember the beginning, but I remember the end.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  I remember the bombing, I remember the invasion of France. The reason France stayed together

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  is that, uh, under the bombing, under the invasion, under all of that, under the crimes, was the goal. The goal had, uh, moved to London and started the resistance and made a link with the resistance. Uh, and, uh, there was

• 1:22:14Speaker 02

  trust, he was able to build trust among everybody from, you know, the, the, mostly he was on the right. Uh, he was accused of being on the extreme right, but he had the communists with him, he had the communist Maquis, you know, the, the, the, the resistance itself in the factories, in the trains, in the, in, you know, in the mines, so on, with, with him. And he had the admini- much of the administration that was still in place. And he had the army and the navy and, and, and could present something credible to

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  as an hour when it came time for the invasion. Now, um, That's in many crises, in industrial crises, which I've lived through as, you know, as an investor, I mean, every, every startup has a series of crises, you know, even Google and Apple, I mean, look at Apple. What happened when Apple was essentially out of business and they had no CEO? Well, you know, they, they brought back their initial CEO, who had been dismissed by the board of Apple 10 years before. Okay.

• 1:23:38Speaker 02

  And, but by then, he had learned something and he had the trust of the remaining people and he rebuilt Apple into what it is today, which is, admittedly, the leading, you know, personal computer company in the world. So, the, that's what it takes, is leadership. The, under, and that's a question that they didn't ask at that, at that test, you know, that my friends attended in, in Washington.

• 1:24:19Speaker 02

  It, it all depends if you, if you trust your leader, whether that's in war or in business, or in a situation where, a desperate situation, like France, and it was invaded, became part of Germany essentially, the, the trust in the leader, you know, is the, is a key factor. So, a question is arising with UFOs, you know, is, at the time when it becomes obvious

• 1:24:56Speaker 02

  that, that there is, the phenomenon is here, is there going to be a leader who can reassure the population and the scientific community, which right now is silent, it's absent, you know, it's not, I mean, in spite of all the, all the work that Dr. Nolan is doing, that I've done, that Dr. Heineck had done, you know, the, the professors are not following us. You know, they are staying in on their campus, doing their research. Uh, and they don't trust the uh, the UFO.

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  The medium, you know, the UFO, they don't trust what they see on TV. And and they have good reasons not to trust it. Because again, it all comes from, you know, secret thing, classified project. Somebody says, oh, I was part of a classified project that did this and that. Well, yeah, so they built a gadget that can, uh, you know, uh, I would perform a Russian work. Fine, I'm I'm glad we have that technology and I don't need to know how it works. But that's not what that farmer told me. You know, that farmer told me, or in one particular case, some very sophisticated people, professionals,

• 1:26:23Speaker 02

  who saw that little light, little light got larger. And then, uh, out of it came a craft, the si- the size of my apartment. And, uh, it left imprints on the ground. And someone I know went there the next morning when he heard that, uh, threw the police and he went there with plaster of Paris. And he took an imprint of the impact of the leg of the craft. And, uh, we have that.

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  And it's it's about this big, okay? And this high, and it's round, and it's perfectly round on top. You know, that's a mold from the the thing before the the dirt. You know, the the and at that point, only the the the cops had, the gendarmes had access to it. And then they they they secured the area. It's an area that's pretty far away anyway. I mean, pretty, uh, it wouldn't be trampled by. But he was there that very morning and he took that that uh, that cast.

• 1:27:40Speaker 02

  That's real. That's something we can study.

• 1:27:45Speaker 02

  There are, of course, in the cast, there are leaves of grass that are stuck to it. Well, you know, why don't we probe those leaves of grass to see? I know it's been many years, but we, maybe we can still do some, some good with that. And there were four imprints like that, you know? The craft was about forty-five feet in diameter.

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  What was it doing there? And there was some.

• 1:28:23Speaker 02

  So, uh, I'm, uh, those are the cases I continue to work with. And really, I don't need, I, I don't need anybody. I mean, I can, I can find the labs, I can find people to, you know, help me interview the witnesses. I know the witnesses. I, I have interviewed some of them already. And, uh, uh, you know, I can go back and do, do some more.

• 1:28:53Jeremy Corbell?

  You, you showed me a case, you showed me a case this morning as something you wanted to talk about. And when you showed me the image, it reminded me of a, a military image that George and I obtained and released to the public. Can you show me or show our audience that image and, and why that case is important? Can you show that to me right now?

• 1:29:14Speaker 02

  Um, I'd, I'd rather keep it fairly quiet because I don't want any interference with it, you know? So that's.

• 1:29:24Jeremy Corbell?

  Oh, no, I, I'm talking about the photo that you said you wanted to talk about.

• 1:29:28Speaker 02

  Yes, um.

• 1:29:31Speaker 02

  That's, that's also an interesting case because it happened in France in broad daylight.

• 1:29:43Speaker 02

  With a woman who was driving from her home to the family home with two

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  two girls in their early teens in the back of the car. The car had a, the roof was open, but there was a glass a glass top that was not open. So they were looking at the sky through the, through the glass. And the, ahead of the car, they saw an object coming towards them that looked like, that looked like this. It was essentially a star shaped. Uh, today we would call it a drone. Uh, it, uh, it was,

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  it was strange because it seemed to be flying, but it stayed in the same position with respect to the car. And they, uh, the woman had this old camera. And you can see the sky. Uh, there is every there is a spot here that could be the shadow. And the, the photograph is not good enough, but we'll work, we continue to work on it. And, uh, and again, uh, Dr. Nolan has, has looked at this also and we're, we're trying to work with the photograph to enhance it.

• 1:31:27Speaker 02

  If it's a shadow, it's interesting because we, we know the exact time. We know the exact place. The woman is a professional woman. She's a marketing executive. She's worked in the U S. She's French. Uh, she works with a company. Uh, the, uh, that's her camera, but she was driving, so she gave the camera to the girls on the backseat. And, and one of the girls took that picture through this glass. So it's not the ideal scientific conditions to take a photograph. But, uh, but we have the photograph.

• 1:32:06Jeremy Corbell?

  That, that's amazing. It, it just, it, yeah. What year was that?

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  So thi- this was about seven years ago. And you know, way before the all the stories about drones and so on. So I said, can you know, you should report it to the French. Uh UFO project at the French research organization. And she said she wanted nothing to do with, you know, with the officials because again, she. Many people now in the US and in France and in other countries have gotten it. That you see something, you don't report it.

• 1:32:48Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:32:49Speaker 02

  You may report it to George, you know, to you. Uh or to me, if if they are in contact with me, I get those reports. They don't go any further anymore. Because tho- those people don't want to be known in the community as crazy. They don't want to be on TV. They don't, they really don't want to be ridiculed. They don't want to have to testify to the police and so on. Uh they may report it anonymously or or maybe not, um maybe openly. To a a group that they trust, to a UFO, local UFO group.

• 1:33:35Speaker 02

  And they will discuss it like they'll discuss it with me. I mean, they, you know, she she wrote to me about this. Um because she had red night books. But uh again, it's not.

• 1:33:49Jeremy Corbell?

  That's amazing. A lot of people like us, we we get a lot of the information and and it doesn't go to places where we think it should. George, you remember this? It looks so similar to the one, the military footage. This is a thermal image, so it's showing the heat signature. But when Jacques showed me that, I had heard about the case. It's just amazing that there's still so much reporting going on, but it's not going to a central location. Like like it would be useful, you know, for scientific data. Anyway, George, what's your next question?

• 1:34:22George Knapp?

  Well, I go back to where we started, whether Jacques is hopeful. Now, you've seen the peaks and valleys of public interest over the years. And, you know, the public is really excited. There's a case that grabs their attention. They demand answers from the government. Congress reacts, has hearings. There are commissions and studies. And then it all goes away. Is there a model that you would you would recommend that could be used to push the topic forward? Jacques, I don't know if you know it, but we're coming up on the 30th anniversary of NIDS. The very first meeting of the Science Advisory Board is two weeks from the time when we are talking here today. Seems like NIDS was

• 1:35:06George Knapp?

  was a wonderful model. And BAS was a wonderful model. But the fact that it had government money in in BAS put limitations on where it could go. You had great freedom to follow the evidence where it led. But you're not allowed to share that information. Is there a model that you would recommend for how to move forward and finally get some solid answers?

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  Yes. You know, what you're describing is the public is chasing ambulances. People will say, oh, yeah, you know, I heard of that case. But there was a new case just this morning on TV. Somebody took a picture at night of a light. And I say, well, you know, where was it? Oh, well, it was in Africa somewhere. Well, what time was it? You know, what direction was it? Does the picture show, you know, other things, planets? Or, you know, oh, no, it's just a light in the sky. You know, I mean, there is nothing you can

• 1:36:11Speaker 02

  do with that. At the same time, we have cases and are documented. But, you know, when when I said, even with my colleagues at SAW, when I said, you know, I want the title of my talk should be 1966, Hansville.

• 1:36:35Speaker 02

  That's the title of my call. It's not, you know, the sensational thing that was in the Commonwealth Report. It's not. It's 1966. And they said, people will say, who cares about 1966? Well, okay, what about the wood that I have? That, that I, you know, was last year, it was tested, you know, at an atomic lab in France. Okay. And we, we know there is new information in the wood from that tree. Okay, that we're going to continue working with, you know, those. Uh, the same thing in, um, in medicine, you know, people chase ambulances.

• 1:37:17Speaker 02

  They, oh, there was a new case of, you know, COVID or something. Well, yeah, but if you, if you talk to Dr. Nolan, he'll say, well, COVID is just one of many, you know, many things that have developed and they come and go and there will be more. Okay. Because that type of, uh, the, the type of biological entity is going to keep evolving and it will reappear in other things. And he's been doing research in Africa on, on other, you know, other things that are part of that family and so on. So when you talk to the scientists, they, they are not looking at the last thing that was on TV.

• 1:38:02Speaker 02

  You know, they are looking at the history of it and you need, that's certainly, you know, I, I think my last responsibility in this field is to transmit some of that, which is why I wanted to talk about the 1966 Haynesville case, you know, and really put it on, you know, re, reawaken it from its ashes and, uh, and, and bring it, bring it forward. I think we, people need to get back into those books and, you know, uh, and, and look at the old, the old data.

• 1:38:44George Knapp?

  Should there be something like BaaS as a way to move forward, but with private money, not government money, so that there are no strings attached?

• 1:38:52Speaker 02

  Well, BaaS was painful. And we didn't expect that because the NIDS experience,

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  you know, was essentially the most outstanding team I've ever worked with in science. I mean, you know,

• 1:39:15Speaker 02

  of course, Colm Kelleher and the whole team and Dr. Pudoff and so on. And Dr. Green, all of us, you know, had specialties, but we all brought something to the meeting.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  When it became BaaS, all of us not only, you know, had that knowledge but a background from NIDS, but we had top secret references, you know, with a few things attached to it. So at that point, you know, we couldn't talk to each other anymore. And I mean, Dr. Green worked on my data warehouse for two years, expanding it in certain areas. I had consulted him about the structure that users would want in different disciplines. And I implemented it based on the structure that the specialist gave me,

• 1:40:21Speaker 02

  which is what you do when, you know, when you're a computer guy. And but then there were new cases coming in that I never knew about that had a different structure. And I never knew about that, so I couldn't adapt dynamically the structure as I would have adapted it if we had been at IBM or AT&T or in any, you know, any open company. Because there were barriers and I didn't know about these cases. In fact, I still don't know about these cases.

• 1:40:57Speaker 02

  And, you know, the other people didn't know what I was doing. Apart from, apart from that, and with other cases. And so, that, that structure, again, coming back to the beginning, is fine if you're a small group of people developing a new weapon or a new radar. You know, you all know each other, you know what you're building, and that, that information can be contained, and you're all in the same room, working on the same device. This is not it. We need to open the doors and the windows.

• 1:41:38Speaker 02

  I'm not going to be a part of any, any new secret, you know, I'm, I'm done with it. And that comes up with UFO samples, you know. And it's, it's ridiculous. I, I have samples that are part of a case that people in other countries, that I could name, are keeping secret. And I don't know what they've done with their samples from the same case. So I'm not going to tell them what I'm doing with my samples, or the ones I gave Dr. Nolan. But it's ridiculous because we can't make any progress. And they are stuck with their samples.

• 1:42:23Speaker 02

  They think that they are the only ones who have, who know about that case. Now, I went to that place, I spoke to the witness, and the witness was smart enough to give them, he had five pieces of stuff that he picked up. When they, they came, you know, they are a government place. They came there and they said, "We need the, the thing, and of course we'll return it to you after analysis", which is what they all say. Now, don't, don't believe that, okay? They never do. They may return something, but they've taken the good stuff in the meantime,

• 1:43:07Speaker 02

  and they may return something to you that has nothing to do. And, you know, that happened in Sokoro, you know, in that, that case.

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  Well, the the actual stuff that was was picked up by Dr. Stanford and Dr. Heineck was never returned to them and they were told, you know, just a fairy story about what what was found there, that it was silica. But it wasn't silica. And they they fooled everybody to get it to a secret lab. And it's, you know, presumably still there. Dr. Stanford died in the meantime and, you know, we don't know where the actual samples are. We'll never get that. So, fine. But the witness kept the number five sample.

• 1:44:01Speaker 02

  And I was offered the number five sample. And which was, you know, which was about this this big. And I said, I don't need all that because Dr. Nolan is looking at very small things, so I just need, you know, a few grams of it. So we carved out. I said, keep it. I don't want responsibility to take anything through customs. You know, you keep it. I'm just going to take, you know, a few a few grams of it, and that's what we have. Now, the people back there are surprised that I'm talking about that case because they think they have the old samples and they are secret.

• 1:44:46Speaker 02

  Well, too bad, but they are not alone. Maybe theirs are secret, but mine mine isn't secret, you know. So we we you run into this kind of stupid situation. And that's why why scientists are not going to get involved. You know, you can't do science that way. You're not going to get, you know, your your university, your lab, your students involved in something. And then at the end of it, you find it's a hoax by the D I A or or something to fool the Russians about something. And and the whole thing was a joke. And, you know, you're not going to risk your career, you know, with that kind of thing. And I don't blame them.

• 1:45:33George Knapp?

  I've tried to pin you down on this question for as long as I've known you. It's about the control system. A theory that you proposed, a hypothesis you proposed more than 50 years ago, that there is some sort of a control system imposed on humanity, on Earth, from somewhere else, that it limits what we can do. And whether Earthlings are aware of it, whether they like it or not, it's there. Is there a way to test that? And have you done so?

• 1:46:05Speaker 02

  Well, that idea comes from a discussion I had in France with scientists. And because I was showing them the statistics that I had. And as you know, I've done a lot of computer work on this, looking at the inner structure, not the raw data, the filtered data. After you get all that 90%, you know, delusions, illusions, clouds, the moon, all that out of it, then you end up with the hard data. The hard data follows a periodicity, which is very strange,

• 1:46:50Speaker 02

  that looks like an induction sequence. And some psychologists looked at it and said, "It looks like a schedule of reinforcement." And I said, "What's a schedule of reinforcement?" And they sat me down and got me to read Skinner and the whole psychology, you know, thesis about induction of changes in behavior in animals and in humans.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  You know, with things that repeat, but don't quite repeat the same way all the time. And that's what the inner structure, that's what I was hoping we would get to with that. And that's the thing that was cut off, you know, and essentially taken from us with no explanation, before we could get to redo that. That's the secret, that's a big secret. Now, when I discussed it in France, I said, "Well, you know, a schedule of reinforcement or a mechanism like that can be natural or it can be artificial."

• 1:48:13Speaker 02

  Nature presents us with lots of control systems. You know, this room has a control system, you know, that controls the temperature. If I step out on the balcony, you know, I'm going to get a completely different temperature. The temperature inside here is controlled. If I wanted to test it, I could light a fire, you know, warm up the temperature inside and see if something controls it and dampens it down. So I can do a test of that. Of course, the environment is a series of control systems. And many people don't believe that the environment is changing.

• 1:48:58Speaker 02

  And there are scientists who, for the last fifty years, have said, "Yes, the environment is changing." And, you know, insects from Africa now showing up in Paris. You know, how did they get there? From the Sahara? Well, they got there because the temperature of France is going up two degrees in a few years. Two degrees in a few years. That's a control system. That it's not an evil group that's doing that. It's just the planet, okay, is doing that. It's the environment. So, you know, UFOs could be from the environment. There could be plasmas.

• 1:49:42Speaker 02

  Many people say, you know, there is many UFOs manifest the way plasmas would be manifesting. So, go to a physics lab and ask the professor, you know, "What's a, what's a globe of plasma?" You know, and he'll give you, you know, a bunch of the questions. And you say, "Well, how come it can last for ten minutes?" And he doesn't have an answer to that, because it surely shouldn't last for ten minutes, according to our physics. So even that is a mystery, okay?

• 1:50:21Speaker 02

  So, but UFOs we're talking about are not that. I mean, they are artificial. We have to believe they are artificial. And if they show up according to a schedule of reinforcement in distinct waves over distinct countries, then it's an intelligent system. And that's where my sort of control systems come from. The, the question is, can we interact with it or not? Are we being trained for something, the way Skinner reinforcement schedule would

• 1:51:03Speaker 02

  train a mouse or, you know, a man to learn something? And, and one of them said, look, look, look at the university. I mean, a, a university is a control system. But if you apply for your PhD, you don't know what you have to do to come out as a doctor. They don't really give you the steps. You know, when you, in, in the law classes, you have to get good notes, good grades to graduate, and then you graduate. Not so at the PhD level.

• 1:51:46Speaker 02

  Many people have gone through PhD studies and they never got the degree. And they don't know why they didn't get the degree. But there was something in the process which was not written down anywhere where they didn't get the degree. Okay? So, I, I spoke to Jacques Berger, who had been in a concentration camp. He was, he was a French spy. He was a French, he, he helped build the first scientific espionage network against the Germans, you know, with the discovery of heavy water and where heavy water came from and everything else.

• 1:52:29Speaker 02

  He was involved in that. He was caught. He was put in a concentration camp. He was a Jew. He was tortured. And he said in those, he was in three different concentration camps. Uh, they wanted to know, of course, what the French were doing. Uh, he didn't tell them, so they kept torturing him, which was their idea of a control system. They actually said it was a closed control system. And we think of concentration camps as a closed control system, then he said, we're wrong. One time in one of his concentration camps, the, uh, all of a sudden, the firemen

• 1:53:13Speaker 02

  from Munich were brought there by the Nazi. The firemen of Munich were not happy and they were on strike. The Nazi arrested all of them and moved them to, uh, the concentration camp for three weeks. They didn't know they were going to be released after three weeks. Now they were put in the same regime as the, um, inmates of the concentration camp. After three weeks, they were no longer on strike and they were driven back to Munich.

• 1:53:47Speaker 02

  So he said the concentration camp was like a university, in a way you could graduate.

• 1:53:54Speaker 02

  But I didn't know that because, you know, they were torturing me pretty much every day.

• 1:54:02Speaker 02

  That's reality, okay? That's, that's human reality. He fortunately survived. He escaped, uh, and, uh, he w- w- went on to be, you know, a prominent advisor to the Gaul and and prominent publisher in Paris. That's, you know, that's a real experience.

• 1:54:28Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:54:30Speaker 02

  He was in a, he said that was a control system, uh, but it could be open or closed depending on the conditions. He said, I think UFOs may be the same thing. They may be open to some people under certain conditions that they control. They certainly have, uh, spoken to people who were confronted with entities that were open to discussion.

• 1:55:05Speaker 02

  There are cases that I know

• 1:55:11Speaker 02

  where there were this happened in government facilities, but nobody is talking about that. So I suspect that that's true, based on the people I've met. But they were not the people who are running the program, so I cannot be completely sure. But what they described to me is a very sophisticated process by which we may be able to interact with the entities. Those are not the entities that are described

• 1:55:52Speaker 02

  at Trinity in, you know, in my book

• 1:56:01Speaker 02

  with Paula Harris. They are not the entities that were caught in Brazil

• 1:56:11Speaker 02

  that are, you know, in that documentary.

• 1:56:17Speaker 02

  They are, they may be the controllers, they may be the higher level entity. They, if, if what I'm told is true, the communication with them is very sophisticated and it's complex. So there may be a group that I would respect that has access to that. And this was from years ago, by the way. I mean, that report of that, that particular interaction was more than 20 years in a, in a lab somewhere, in controlled conditions. If that's true.

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  Then there is a process ongoing where we may be able to

• 1:57:09Speaker 02

  acquire information at a very sophisticated level. And that would be,

• 1:57:17Speaker 02

  you know, that could be a reason for stalling called disclosure until there can be a rational way that we're not confronted with something so overpowering that it would destroy our culture and our society. I mean, we have enough to deal with with AI these things, which is, you know, a foreign entity potentially.

• 1:57:50Jeremy Corbell?

  But so, so you're saying you've been made aware that there is a government project, maybe it was 20 years ago, that was able to establish direct communication with a non-human intelligence and that you believe this information to be true and the, and that, and, and that this is a reality. This is what you understand to be true. Is that correct?

• 1:58:12Speaker 02

  I cannot tell. Yes. Yes. Uh, it, it's factual. What I cannot tell is whether that the entity that was presented was a simulation of a real entity or whether it was the real entity. Okay, uh, it, the, the, the, the people I spoke to couldn't probe it. Uh, to see if it was made of flesh or in metal or, or, or, or something else. But the, it was presented to them

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  in a secure facility that I've never heard of anywhere else where there was structured interaction.

• 1:59:09Speaker 02

  With it on a continuing basis by specialists from different areas. The the person I spoke to was an extreme, you know, specialist in in a particular discipline. Uh, and not not another casual observer.

• 1:59:32Jeremy Corbell?

  And so that could be kind of one of the reasons we have to be careful or there's a slow rollout of disclosures because you're saying we might already have communication with some non.

• 1:59:44Speaker 02

  Forms of communication or ways to engineer communication at a sophisticated level. I don't think the the entities from Trinity, you know, were obviously scared. They were not the controllers of the craft. The the witness was still alive, you know, uh, with become close friends with him, went inside as a kid, you know, I mean, was a very curious, very smart kid who knew his, as he says still today, I know my territory, you know. This is the land from his family.

• 2:00:25Speaker 02

  He knows that ranch, he knows the cattle, he knows where the water is, he knows everything about it. And, uh, you know, when he was inside, there was essentially nothing except a very crude thing that we actually have, which and we disagree about what it is, but I I think it's something that the soldiers that the military brought and they forgot to take it back. But I don't think it's a sophisticated, we've tested it in the lab. It's what we've spent over $10,000 testing it in Silicon Valley labs and it's it's just perfectly

• 2:01:07Speaker 02

  normal gadget. It's not mysterious at all. So, uh, it may have been there just for the convenience of the soldiers doing work at night or whatever. But I I don't think it's part of the original of the original manufacturing equipment, you know, of whatever it was. Uh, the craft itself. We had very good description of it. By the way, the, the, the shape and the, the, you know, the look and feel, as, as people say in Silicon Valley,

• 2:01:47Speaker 02

  is identical to the one in Socorro and it's identical to the one in Valensol. So we have three cases there. You know, what's funny is when people are, are describing it in a newspaper and they, they always hire an illustrator and the illustrator always draws a disc. And none of those was a disc. It was egg shaped. Egg shaped, yeah. The witnesses, you know, called it an avocado. And they were obviously speaking Spanish. And they, you know, they called it an avocado. It was not quite oval, but it was an oval, oval, you know, oval shape. There was nothing inside.

• 2:02:32Speaker 02

  If there was a, an engine, it would have been under the floor. And they looked in, under the, under the thing. When it was in the truck, in the army truck. It was on the side to go under the overpass. I mean, all that is very clear. I mean, there's nothing bizarre about it. And they could see the underside. The underside was intact. And there was no opening. And it would have been about two feet deep and maybe six feet long. That's where you could put an engine. And, you know, when Baas was initiated,

• 2:03:14Speaker 02

  the, the task given by the DIA for us was to look at, you know, propulsion,

• 2:03:25Speaker 02

  uh, weight and, and all kinds of things. It would be the ordinary things that you'd want to know about a rocket. Those things don't have propulsion.

• 2:03:39Speaker 02

  You know, you could go, if you master,

• 2:03:45Speaker 02

  you know, if you talk to a modern physicist, talk to Eric Davis, you know, who knows all of this stuff. He'll tell you, you know, time and space are fine to do equations, you know, in school. Now, that's not what physics is about. And in the universe, you could go from one point to another without any propulsion system to take you from one to another in the sense of we think about propulsion with engines and fuel and so on. And if you master the,

• 2:04:21Speaker 02

  you know, the super space, you could move from one point to another. I mean, what do I do with my computer? I mean, I can be in Romania tomorrow with my computer. Right. In remote viewing, I've been moved to places, you know, by Ingo Swann just by reading a set of coordinates. And I've experienced the physical data about that site physically in my body, okay? I didn't have any rockets. I didn't take the train, I didn't take a plane. No, he just read longitude and latitude. And I felt frozen, I felt vertical.

• 2:05:07Speaker 02

  I told him, "Ingo, I can't go on. I mean, this is, this is very uncomfortable. I think I'm going to fall." And he said, "Jacques, go home. You got the site." I said, "Ingo, where did you send me?" And he said, "You're at the top of a peak in the Andes. So you should be cold, you should be afraid of falling. You should feel wind around you," which I was feeling. And I was in that classified room, you know, on the third floor of the S.A., in Menlo Park. He was at the end of the table, I was at the other end of the table. And all we had was white paper and a pen.

• 2:05:51Speaker 02

  And he read to me a set of coordinates, and I was there. And you said.

• 2:05:57Jeremy Corbell?

  That's pretty amazing.

• 2:05:57Speaker 02

  That's pretty amazing. And I said, you know, I'm on a roll here, you know, let's go. This was, you know, early in the morning. And he said, no, I want you to, I don't want to do another side. I want you to stay with that because you, you went to the site. Okay, well, if, if, um, that a human can do that. It's not with my mind that I did that. It's with my, my, my body was trembling and was freezing. And I was afraid to fall and there was wind. Okay. Now, if, if a, a number of people have described that, Ingo described that.

• 2:06:42Speaker 02

  I know Yuri Geller described that. Um, I couldn't do it again. I mean, I'm not a trained remote viewer. But I, you know, we spent a year with Ingo going through a number of cases like that. Because he wanted, it wasn't to train me. It was to train his methodology because he was going to publish his, his method. You know, uh, of, of going through step by step. Well, in that, most of the time we went step by step. And he wanted to see how good he could refine it with somebody who was not a remote viewer.

• 2:07:25Speaker 02

  But understood what remote viewing was by spontaneously. And, uh, I, um, in that particular case, I, I, I broke the, the methodology. But that was accidental, but I know you can do that.

• 2:07:46Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, you, you've experienced that now, which is different. Jacques, after 50 years, right? You're looking at the FO phenomenon and you're, you're seeing that it's so vast. And you've looked at it through a lens that, that most people haven't. One time you came to my ranch in Pioneer Town, California. And we were sitting out watching the, the sunset. And you said something to me and I want to see if you still feel the same way. I asked you. What is it that we truly know about UFOs? Out of all the research you've done, what is it that we actually know for a fact? And you said, there's, there's only one thing that we know for sure about UFOs,

• 2:08:27Jeremy Corbell?

  that they represent an enormous amount of energy in a very, very small amount of space. That's what you told me then, that was probably 10 years ago, at this point, maybe eight years ago. Do you still feel the same way?

• 2:08:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:08:42Jeremy Corbell?

  After all that research?

• 2:08:43Speaker 02

  More and more, and after doing more, more research on that case that I presented, I saw, you know, we've continued to talk to physicists about this and so on. They, they really don't care about energy. They, people are coming up and publishing models of how you could use, you know, thermonuclear energy in such a way that you could go very fast, or you could manipulate things in the atmosphere. This is not it. I mean, it's useful to do that. I mean, if it inspires people to, to build those theories, that's good.

• 2:09:25Speaker 02

  I mean, they shouldn't stop, but that's not, that's not it.

• 2:09:30George Knapp?

  Jeremy, I have no conscience. I, I feel no guilt about exploiting Jacques as much as we can. I'll keep him here for two days. You, however, have a big heart, so maybe you want to wrap it up with a final question or say goodbye?

• 2:09:44Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, absolutely. You know, Jacques, I just wanted to say, um, you know, thank you so much for coming on. You have created such a huge impact on the way that we look at the UFO phenomenon, which you yourself admit we still don't know much about. But I, I'm going to ask you the same question to end this episode that I asked you on my ranch that day. And I hope you can give me a better answer than when I was at, you were at my ranch, which is, are we asking the right questions? And if not, what is the questions we should be asking about UFOs?

• 2:10:22Speaker 02

  I think the right question is probably not just in our brains. You know, it's really, it's a phenomenon that is forcing us to look at our culture, look at, you know, what we do in wars, what we do in, in business, what, you know, everything is going to be in question, not just the physics, it's not just propulsion.

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  It's our culture, our hopes, our visions of, you know, of God, of, of other powers. And then what we're going to be facing when we go into the solar system and beyond the solar system. And are we really prepared to do that? I mean, just look at, you know, the silly things we do about the moon right now, about just going to our closest satellite, you know? And I, I think that's, that's what's in question. And the, the answers have to come from us, you know, not them.

• 2:11:44George Knapp?

  Are you gonna get answers? Maybe it boils down to fundamental misunderstandings about the nature of the relationship. You know, we think of them as invaders from Mars. They came here from somewhere way out there, as opposed to that they have coexisted with us throughout human history.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  There is a, one big question, one hypothesis that's very tangible is that they can be time travelers, or that maybe there is no time, that may be what they are teaching us. Now, Eric Davis tells me the same thing, that basically the universe is not a space-time universe, that it's, what we perceive as space and time is a derived quality from

• 2:12:40Speaker 02

  something else, which is much larger than, you know, that we, we haven't, we have difficulty in perceiving. With our senses. Now, that may be the level where we have to continue exploring to, to really come to a point where we can communicate with whatever is, whatever is there. But we can trust the witnesses and we have to get away from that feeling that this is only a threat. I, I think it's dangerous. Uh, I think we learn more and more about it as time goes on.

• 2:13:25Speaker 02

  And I think we have to learn to, um, cohabit with it and we have to learn to communicate with it.

• 2:13:35Jeremy Corbell?

  Well, thank you, Jacques, for your continued work. Thank you for your friendship and, and the things you've shared with us. Um, I hope that we get some satisfaction within our lifetimes, that more of this will come out, but none of it will unless we keep, uh, you know, trying to understand the phenomenon. So thank you so much for being here with us.