Decoding Social Cues: Harnessing the Power of Communication for Success w/ Vanessa Van Edwards EP 1448

The Summit of Greatness is back! Buy your tickets today – summitofgreatness.comToday’s guest is Vanessa Van Edwards, who is the Lead Investigator at Science of People and is the bestselling author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People. Vanessa works with entrepreneurs, growing businesses, and trillion-dollar companies. She is renowned for teaching science-backed people skills to audiences around the world where her mission is to help introverts leverage their strengths, show high achievers how to activate their secret skills and teach awkward people to feel more confident. She’s written a new book called Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. In this episode you will learn,How to make a great impression at a big conference or networking eventThe best questions to ask when you meet someone and whyHow emotions are contagiousWhy “fake it til you make it” isn’t the best strategyWhat personality traits to be mindful of when dating For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1448Another great episode with Vanessa Van Edwards – https://link.chtbl.com/1231-guest Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection. I've got an invitation for you. Join me at this year's Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio to unleash your true greatness. This is the one time a year that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful transformative weekend. People come from all over the world and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Josprey Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Sanchero, and many more. You'll also be able to dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials.

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  So if you're ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com/summit2023. Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I'll see you there.

• 1:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't think you should ever pretend to be something you're not. I think that you're better off spending your time instead of trying to be the bubbly extrovert, is trying to find out what is your unique brand of charisma? Like, what is your flavor? I think that the more time you can spend on that before trying to emulate someone else or trying to dial up something that isn't natural to you is...

• 1:22Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 1:46Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to today's special episode. Over the last 1,300-plus episodes, there have been so many impactful interviews that I've been lucky enough to have, and I always like to reflect on some of the most powerful. And this episode was one that resonated with most of you guys in the past, and I'm excited for the value it's going to bring you today as well. So I hope you enjoy today's episode.

• 2:10Lewis Howes?

  So you wrote this book Captivate the Science of Succeeding with People. I love the first couple of pages where it shows a photo of you with like, I don't know if you have braces on or not.

• 2:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, yeah. So I'm in LA. My family's here. And I give my mom the galley. And she was like so excited. She's like, "Oh, my God. Yay." And she opens, she was like, "Why did you choose this picture?" I was like, "Mom, like, that's real."

• 2:34Lewis Howes?

  It's real life.

• 2:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like, that was me. And she said something that was interesting. She was like, "That was the most painful part of your life. Why would you share that?" Which I think is really...

• 2:46Lewis Howes?

  You have to.

• 2:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You have to.

• 2:48Lewis Howes?

  To connect with people and show them that you're not alone and that you're just like everyone else. Yes.

• 2:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Also, like, I have this problem. People like will put me in the expert position. Like, I'm always kind of uncomfortable in that position a little bit because I'm not a naturally charismatic person. I'm not naturally extroverted. I'm a recovering awkward person. And so I was like, I could either position myself in the intro like everyone does. As I am the expert. Yeah. All of these awards. I'm the extrovert. I'm naturally charismatic. And I was like, but like, that is not me. So I was like, I would rather switch it and say, "It is so hard for naturally charismatic people to teach people how they do what they do." It's much easier in a certain sense to not be that person and then have to learn it the hard way. So I say that I learned it the hard way to teach it to you the easy way.

• 3:35Lewis Howes?

  Right, yeah.

• 3:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So that was a big, that was a big decision that first two pages.

• 3:38Lewis Howes?

  I love it. I mean, if I showed you a photo of myself, I sent a photo actually yesterday.

• 3:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't believe you, though.

• 3:43Lewis Howes?

  No, hold on.

• 3:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No way.

• 3:45Lewis Howes?

  I'll send you a photo of me.

• 3:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, you were like an athlete. I was like a mathlete. Come on.

• 3:48Lewis Howes?

  I was an athlete the way you are an extrovert. I was not, you know, an athlete because I was good because I was bad. And I said, "I'm going to master this," just like you were.

• 3:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 4:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. So that's kind of how I became one.

• 4:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Are you going to show me a vest picture because I want to see helmet hair?

• 4:04Lewis Howes?

  No, not a vest picture. Let me see. I'll show you a photo of me.

• 4:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Recovering Awkward Louis.

• 4:09Lewis Howes?

  I mean, this is...

• 4:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's what I want to see.

• 4:11Lewis Howes?

  This is pretty goofy, you know?

• 4:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 4:15Lewis Howes?

  It's pretty like lame, goofy.

• 4:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Yes, this would fit really well next to mine.

• 4:22Lewis Howes?

  This could have been perfect next year, I guess. So anyways, I mean, I was like tall and gangly and, you know, all those things. But I was like, okay, how can I learn how to be a great athlete? And so I reverse engineered it. I wasn't like gifted as a kid. And I was very awkward. I was in the special needs classes. I couldn't read and write.

• 4:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 4:39Lewis Howes?

  I was awkward in connecting with people. I was the youngest kid always in the sports teams because in high school I started to become good at sports because I put my energy in that. So I was like the freshman with all the seniors.

• 4:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 4:51Lewis Howes?

  So I had to learn how to connect with people. And I think I told you this before, when I was a senior in high school, I was like terrified because all the jocks that I hung out with were gone now. So it was just me.

• 5:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Lewis Howes?

  I was like, I was like, oh, you know what I'm gonna do? I want to become friends with everyone. So I hung out in the choir. I hang out with like the band people. I hung out with like the science nerds.

• 5:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh my gosh.

• 5:13Lewis Howes?

  And I hung out with everyone. I was like, I'm gonna learn how to connect with each human being and just listen to them and hear their needs and try to be friends with everyone. And that was the greatest thing that happened to me is like having no jock friends anymore.

• 5:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And being like, I'm gonna connect with everyone.

• 5:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and just understand people.

• 5:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Can we talk about the science? Can we reverse engineer that? So like, you told me that story, I think a couple of weeks ago. And I was like, yes. So there was research. I have always been fascinated by the popular kids, right? Like these, these magnetic sort of like, what makes a kid cool or popular, whatever that is. And Van Sloan did a really interesting research experiment with teenagers. He found, well, can you guess what makes the most popular kids popular? Like what is it? It could be anything from attractiveness to clothing to the way they talk. If you had to guess. Listeners, guess too.

• 5:59Lewis Howes?

  What makes a popular person popular?

• 6:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 6:03Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 6:06Lewis Howes?

  Their confidence? I don't know. Their outgoing?

• 6:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, that, I would have guessed outgoing. That's exactly what I would have guessed. Like extroverted, talkative, which was like, I was like, oh, please don't let it be that. So first of all, it wasn't attractiveness, which I think is very important for people to keep in mind. It wasn't the most beautiful girls or the hottest guys. What it was is the most popular kids also liked the most people.

• 6:30Lewis Howes?

  That makes sense.

• 6:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And like now that I heard that, which is exactly what you just said.

• 6:34Lewis Howes?

  I suppose just five people, they're like, you know.

• 6:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 6:37Lewis Howes?

  Everyone.

• 6:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, exactly. It's like, what he found was is that the most popular kids, when they were asked, "Who do you like?", they had the longest list.

• 6:45Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 6:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And that also meant that they were liked by the most people. And this was measured by typically, they smiled more in the hallways. So they would do the, you tell me if this is right. So men, when they know, see someone they know, they give the upward, "Hey, nice to see you", like it's like acknowledgement, versus if you don't know someone, but you want to acknowledge them, you give them the downward nod.

• 7:04Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 7:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Is that right?

• 7:06Lewis Howes?

  Probably, yes. If you're conditioned that way. I try to just smile at everyone.

• 7:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so that's what the cool kids said.

• 7:12Lewis Howes?

  Because you like, you train yourself to just... I just started smiling at everyone in the hallways, too. Just like, "Hey, how are you?", like, "Good to see you", just like a compliment or something.

• 7:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Without realizing it, and that's what I kind of wrote about in your chapter, was like, without realizing it, you were actually activating a scientific principle that we like people who like us.

• 7:30Lewis Howes?

  Makes sense.

• 7:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The biggest...

• 7:31Lewis Howes?

  You're not gonna like people that hate you.

• 7:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No.

• 7:32Lewis Howes?

  Or ignore you.

• 7:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or, and this is the real killer of relationships, people do not think of. We talk a lot about toxic people, right? Difficult people, toxic people. But actually, the killer is ambivalence.

• 7:45Lewis Howes?

  You're not sure.

• 7:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, you're not sure, "Do they like me? Do I like them?

• 7:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 7:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Were we friendly? That actually takes up more mental energy than the toxic people. And they did a study with police officers where they found that police officers who have more ambivalent relationships versus police officers who had a lot of toxic relationships, the ambivalent ones actually had less efficiency, they had less happiness and career satisfaction, and they skipped more days of work. That's because if you, if someone's toxic, you know. You don't want to sit with them at lunch.

• 8:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You don't want to stop by their desk. It's clear. Ambivalent, you're like, "Should I invite them to lunch?"

• 8:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or no.

• 8:24Lewis Howes?

  It's not safe. You're like, "I'm sure."

• 8:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, and I think that that's the key word, is safety. And so ambivalence, when you like someone, you clearly are like smiling, nodding, "Hey, what's up? Good to see you", the person's like... I'm liked. And like that is the greatest feeling of safety in the world. And so if you go to a conference, you have a big conference coming up, you're really nervous. I don't want you to think about being extroverted, especially if you're an introvert or ambivert. No, like, don't pretend.

• 8:49Lewis Howes?

  Ambivert?

• 8:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ambivert.

• 8:51Lewis Howes?

  Ambivert.

• 8:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. It's, it's, I'm an ambivert. An ambivert is if introvert or extrovert never felt right to you, it's when you can flip into extroversion if you need to, or in the right situation. So like for me right now, I'm not that nervous, right? I'm a little bit nervous, you make me a little bit nervous, but like not terribly.

• 9:09Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 9:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like learning one-on-one situations, conferences, I'm okay. Nightclubs, bars, those kinds of things, no. So if you are in those situations, going to a conference, don't think about how can I be more extroverted? How can I be more outgoing? It's actually, how can I just like more people? Like when I'm at a conference and I do this, you were at WDS, so I go every year. And all of my trainers, my science people trainers come with me and I say like, our one thing is, we are inviting everyone to sit with us. We are inviting everyone to come to lunch with us. If you see someone standing alone, we say hello, we invite them to come over. Like that is our number one goal. And so that, that's an easier way, I think, to tackle like big groups or conferences. It's just how can you like more people?

• 9:52Lewis Howes?

  That's cool, yeah. Smiling is a good practice anyways. Whenever I see someone on the streets, I just try to smile. Sometimes people are a little awkward about it, they're like, they don't react to me.

• 10:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  See, I can't do that as a woman, I don't think.

• 10:02Lewis Howes?

  That's true, because if you're like leading people on or something, you're flirting or whatever, yeah.

• 10:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Gender differences.

• 10:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's challenging. I try to smile as much as I can, guys and girls.

• 10:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, I think you should.

• 10:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Also, I think a smile is never going to hurt you. It might get you into a conversation that you didn't expect.

• 10:17Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But I think it's always a good, a good basic thing to try.

• 10:20Lewis Howes?

  Yes. We're gonna go into later, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hook you guys right now. We're gonna go in later and talk about how to understand when someone's lying. Want to do about it. And Vanessa said that this is like a scary thing to talk about. It's like, uh, she doesn't know if she wants to talk about it that much, but we're gonna go into a little bit. But first, you have different sections in your book. There's the first five seconds, the first five hours, and the first five days.

• 10:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  First five minutes, first five hours, first five days.

• 10:47Lewis Howes?

  Minutes, hours, days. Yes, not seconds. But the first five seconds are important, too.

• 10:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Actually, I debated calling it the first five seconds.

• 10:54Lewis Howes?

  It's true.

• 10:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like, that would work. But the reason why I didn't is because a couple of chapters are on like conversation starters and it's hard to get out of full conversation.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  A few seconds.

• 11:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, right, right.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. But there are cues within the first five seconds.

• 11:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 11:06Lewis Howes?

  Probably, right?

• 11:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Very much.

• 11:06Lewis Howes?

  Maybe sooner than that.

• 11:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I, I think that it happens the moment you first see someone.

• 11:10Lewis Howes?

  Within him, within a second.

• 11:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Within a second, and that, that has proven as well online. Like, a lot of our first impressions are actually happening digitally. Right? Someone emails you for the first time, they Google you, they see you on LinkedIn.

• 11:21Lewis Howes?

  See a photo, whatever.

• 11:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it. That's your digital first impression.

• 11:23Lewis Howes?

  Everything matters in what you're putting out. Every angle, every smile or not a smile, it can be like misread.

• 11:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think if you think of it like an algorithm, right? So like, if you think of, okay, my LinkedIn profile is a piece of my information that I'm putting out there, as well as like my email signature. As well as my dating profile name.

• 11:43Lewis Howes?

  I should just have you like, break down everything that I do and just say, no, this is wrong.

• 11:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Can I give you a really quick tip on dating profiles? Are you on dating profiles right now?

• 11:51Lewis Howes?

  I've got a girlfriend.

• 11:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so if anyone who's on, anyone who's on dating profiles, not Louis.

• 11:56Lewis Howes?

  Yes. I'm not on anywhere. I've never been on. I was on Tinder for like three days because.

• 12:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What happened?

• 12:02Lewis Howes?

  This is years ago.

• 12:07Lewis Howes?

  It was my friend, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll take his, I won't say his name. He's pretty well known. I'll tell you afterwards. He was like, get on here, it's amazing. And I just, it's as an experiment, just get on there, right? So for three days I do it, and I'm like, it's crazy, right? It's like madness, it's addictive, you're swiping all the time, and I'm like. And then it was just like, okay, I had a bunch of matches or whatever. And I was like, this is just exhausting.

• 12:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 12:30Lewis Howes?

  It's so exhausting. And I just deleted it after three days. I was like.

• 12:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You didn't even see anyone?

• 12:35Lewis Howes?

  No, I had a couple of text conversations with people and I never saw anyone. But here's the thing, I mean, I'm so like forward with like saying hi to someone if I like them.

• 12:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 12:44Lewis Howes?

  If I'm single, that I'm not like, I need to find someone to like.

• 12:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  For sure.

• 12:47Lewis Howes?

  Match with me. It's not uncomfortable for me to like, see anyone and stop them.

• 12:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 12:51Lewis Howes?

  And say, hey.

• 12:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know, you don't have to optimize in that area.

• 12:54Lewis Howes?

  I don't have to.

• 12:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because you don't need the intro.

• 12:56Lewis Howes?

  I don't need to. But I, you know, I had to learn how to do that because I could never do that. And I think I told you this when I was, uh, 16, 17. I didn't have like, you know, the good looks. I didn't have anything. And I was terrified of girls when I was in high school. And so for a summer, I made it a mission. I said, every single day, I think I was 15, going into junior year. Every single day, I was like, uh, whenever I see a girl that gives me butterflies, I have to go towards her and, and talk to her. And then it was like, I have to go ask her.

• 13:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Every day?

• 13:25Lewis Howes?

  Every day I saw a girl for the whole summer. It was an experiment that I gave myself. I was kind of like a mini you.

• 13:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 13:31Lewis Howes?

  I was like, I need to overcome this fear. This is BS. Like, I want to be able to talk to girls and not be afraid. And like, I always stumbled over my words. I just couldn't get anything out.

• 13:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:40Lewis Howes?

  Terrified.

• 13:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 13:41Lewis Howes?

  So I said, every day, whenever I see a girl that I'm like, have butterflies, I'm gonna go run to her. Not like, literally, but yeah, not like.

• 13:50Lewis Howes?

  But I was like, I'm going to go up to her and just say hello. And then it was like, ask her for her number. Then it was just like, ask her out. It was like, another challenge. And by the end of the summer, I was like fluent in the art of like asking girls.

• 14:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The approach, the ask, the opener.

• 14:04Lewis Howes?

  And even if it didn't like work out, or if they were like, no, I was just like, at least we had like a fun interaction. And it was like, okay, you know? And I learned how to gain confidence through taking action and giving myself a challenge.

• 14:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, my gosh. So if anyone is listening and it feels great, if they.

• 14:16Lewis Howes?

  It's the greatest thing.

• 14:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That is like, so I, one of the biggest challenges, I think we have to think about our life like a big experiment.

• 14:22Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 14:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And the problem is, as adults, we did this when we were kids, right? Like you would play with something, or you would, you would try something out, uh, you would take a class just because you were curious. Now as adults, we're like, I can't, I can't try anything because what if it becomes forever? Or what if it's permanent? What if there's a risk? I think that every interaction is an experiment. When you think about it that way, you become so much braver. Right? You think, okay, I'm nervous about approaching that VIP, or that girl, or that guy, or whoever. That butterflies, those butterflies are a chemical signal for me that there is something here. Right? Like, there is an experiment that I can have.

• 14:58Lewis Howes?

  You should do it, yeah.

• 14:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I should do it. So there's a couple of things when you're approaching. If you're, if this is something that you want to work on, whether it's a VIP, or a stranger, or a... See if another, so there's...

• 15:07Lewis Howes?

  A girl.

• 15:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  A girl, right? There's the approach and the open. So the approach is actually very important, because that's usually when someone's first impression is made. So when you're approaching someone, you want to signal a couple of things. You want to first signal friend, not foe. So friend, right? Like...

• 15:24Lewis Howes?

  And I heard this last time.

• 15:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, hands, eyes. Perfect.

• 15:27Lewis Howes?

  First thing people look at is the hands.

• 15:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, go, go, go listen to that episode if you, if you didn't hear that.

• 15:32Lewis Howes?

  No, it's great, yeah, the first thing. Keep your hands out of your pockets.

• 15:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hands out of your pockets, and hand first if you want to do a handshake or a hug. Eye contact, great. Then there's the approach, the verbal, which we didn't get to talk about last time. So what people don't realize is actually the verbal approach matters very little. And that is because in the first few seconds of interaction, there's a lot of chemical reading going on. There's a lot of decoding. The verbal becomes sort of secondary.

• 15:55Lewis Howes?

  Doesn't matter.

• 15:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's why the, "Hey, how are you?" is one of the best openers you can do, because it, it doesn't actually necessarily mean anything.

• 16:03Lewis Howes?

  Doesn't take brain power.

• 16:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It doesn't take a lot of brain power. The first question, however, is important. So after you...

• 16:08Lewis Howes?

  Well, "Hey, how are you?" is a question, but after that...

• 16:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But is it really, though? Like, we never really...

• 16:13Lewis Howes?

  It's more of like a...

• 16:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, kinda.

• 16:14Lewis Howes?

  "Good to meet you."

• 16:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, so I, I, my, my approach is usually just, "Hey, my name's Vanessa."

• 16:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like, or, "Hey, nice to meet you," so it's not even a question.

• 16:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That first question, though, is when you want to have some kind of a spark. This is a way that you signal to someone else, this interaction is going to be different.

• 16:29Lewis Howes?

  Meaningful, interesting, unique.

• 16:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Fill in the blank, what your intention is for the social interaction. So you set up someone's response based on the kind of trigger that you ask. So for example, if you say, "So what do you do?"

• 16:42Lewis Howes?

  I'd be bored.

• 16:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You've signaled. Yeah, you've signaled autopilot.

• 16:46Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 16:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't really want to think deeply about this.

• 16:49Lewis Howes?

  No, I don't care.

• 16:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I'm judging you on what you do, which might or might not be true.

• 16:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I would much prefer, and I call these conversation sparkers. These are these very dopamine-producing. Dopamine is like a pleasure chemical that gets people excited. And you can actually do this with the words you use. Have you ever talked about priming on the show? I don't know if I've ever heard you.

• 17:06Lewis Howes?

  We can talk about it.

• 17:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, like, so priming was one of those things that I had never thought about this way. But the words you use signal things for other people. So, for example, if you say, exciting, the other person immediately looks for hits, not misses. So if you say to someone, um...

• 17:21Lewis Howes?

  What are you most excited about lately?

• 17:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, they're immediately in their brain going to search for anything in their life that hits that. If you say, hey, have you been busy recently? They immediately then search for hits for busy. So that's actually a very powerful thing to know because your words dictate everything, including in emails, right? If you're sending an email to someone and saying, hey, we're meeting on Friday. We're really crunched on time. Um, I'm a little worried about getting everything done, so hopefully we can make it all happen.

• 17:47Lewis Howes?

  Seems stressful.

• 17:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's a very, you're actually cuing the person.

• 17:51Lewis Howes?

  To feel stress.

• 17:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  To feel stress, worry, and crunched for time.

• 17:54Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man, that sucks.

• 17:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 17:55Lewis Howes?

  It's like anxiety, like, ah, I gotta do this now.

• 17:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And you are, you are in control of it, like, you're creating it. Whereas, if you look at your emails, you're like, what am I priming with this email? Like, what am I asking them to search for in their brain? I'm so excited to meet with you on Friday. I can't wait to talk about all the topics we're going to go through. And I know that we're going to be super efficient.

• 18:11Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. At ease, excited.

• 18:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, and like boom, boom, like, you're going to try to get through each thing on your list.

• 18:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So that same thing happens with that initial kind of big sparker. So, hey, I'm Vanessa, good to meet you. Hopefully not, how are you, because it's not a real question. And then, working on anything exciting recently? Going on any big vacations? Hey, do you love this wine? This wine is pretty good, huh? Those are all ways that you're signaling, cueing what kind of interaction you want to have. And that sets yourself up for success.

• 18:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, interesting. So those are the few questions you would ask.

• 18:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Those are my-

• 18:43Lewis Howes?

  Exciting.

• 18:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exciting, vacations.

• 18:45Lewis Howes?

  Vacation.

• 18:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then what I call context cues. So um-

• 18:48Lewis Howes?

  Whatever you're doing in the moment, like, isn't this cool?

• 18:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  God, isn't this restaurant great? Wasn't that speaker awesome? Hey, how's the wine? Did you get any drinks? Right, so you'll never run out of things to talk about if you're looking for context cues.

• 18:59Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure. That's cool.

• 19:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, like, I could even, I could even be like, wow, three cameras, Louis, impressive.

• 19:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, now we're talking about cameras.

• 19:05Lewis Howes?

  It's actually four, but yeah, you missed it.

• 19:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Where? Oh!

• 19:08Lewis Howes?

  It's two on you over there, yeah.

• 19:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  My gosh.

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  It's all good.

• 19:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I am impressed.

• 19:13Lewis Howes?

  You just activated my mind to feel like you like me and that you're impressed with me.

• 19:19Lewis Howes?

  Now I feel good and at ease. Okay, cool.

• 19:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, so that, that's how it kind of works.

• 19:23Lewis Howes?

  One of the questions I like as well is what are you most grateful for? And maybe it's not the first one, but it's, I like to keep it one of the first few. And maybe that's wrong, I don't know.

• 19:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, I love it. I mean, you're-

• 19:32Lewis Howes?

  A, triggering gratitude.

• 19:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You're triggering gratitude and you're setting an intention of like, I don't want to talk about surface things.

• 19:38Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 19:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. And by the way, it goes the other way too. Like, if you're with someone who like, you're not comfortable with, or you're ambivalent about, or you don't want to build a deep relationship, you want to avoid those kind of personal topics because you're not safe yet. And that's also a really important internal trigger. There's um, did I tell you about the skydiver study when we talked last time?

• 19:56Lewis Howes?

  Probably.

• 19:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh my gosh, this is like one of my favorite new studies. So-

• 19:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 20:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What they did is, the thing happened to me in New York City. I was in New York City. And I was walking by myself after a dinner party into the subway. New York City is like not, like, I love New York, but like, at night by yourself, it's like, eh. So I was like kind of already nervous and I walk into the subway, walk on the car, and like immediately I feel fear. Like, you know that feeling you get like in the pit of your stomach where you're like, and like, I could feel the hairs in the back of my neck stand up and I was like, what is it, what is it, what is it? And I'm like looking around the car and everything looks fine. And right before the doors close, a guy standing right next to me grabs the purse of the woman sitting, elderly woman sitting, and runs out the doors.

• 20:40Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 20:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Now, thank God, people stopped him, like, within five minutes of, like, within five seconds of him getting off of the car, got the purse back, but I was like, how did I know?

• 20:49Lewis Howes?

  How did you know?

• 20:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So, I was like, I don't think I'm psychic.

• 20:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 20:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So, there's, what else is going on here? So, there was a study that was done, where they had first-time skydivers, before they went up in the air, run on the treadmill. They ran on the treadmill enough to get them real sweaty, and they had them wear sweat pads to absorb their sweat. They took those sweat pads out, they put them in a new sweatsuit, and then they had them jump out of a plane. Took those sweat pads, obviously get a little sweaty when you're jumping out of a plane.

• 21:14Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 21:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Then they had participants smell these sweat pads. I know, it's kinda gross.

• 21:19Lewis Howes?

  See which one was fear, or which one's excitement, or what?

• 21:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They didn't even tell them what they were smelling. They put them in a, a brain scanner, and they had them smell each one. And these people had no idea what was being tested. They didn't even know they were smelling sweat.

• 21:31Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 21:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  When the people smelled the sweat pad that was used when they jumped, the person's fear part of their brain activated. In other words, when we feel fear or anxiety, we actually

• 21:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 21:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  produce a fear chemical. This study kinda blew my mind, because it means two things. One is that, three things, actually. One, we produce, there's a physical response to the emotion that we feel, in, in, in a chemical or a pheromone. Second, other people pick that up. And third, not only do we pick it up, we actually mirror it. Like, we catch it, like a contagion. Which means that, if you, if on that train, I clearly smelled his adrenaline or his fear, and it made me very scared. Even though it only happened two seconds later, I could, I could feel that something was about to happen. So, when you show up to an event, feeling either really anxious or really nervous...

• 22:24Lewis Howes?

  You're gonna create that in other people.

• 22:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. People are going to catch it from you. Which is why I do not believe in the phrase, fake it till you make it. I don't think that that works. I think that what's much better is figuring out where you naturally rise to the occasion, where you already feel strong and confident, because I would much rather infect excitement than infect anxiety. So we are, we have a lot of power in our social interactions. The cues that people catch from us can literally physically not only change our conversation, but change the shape of their entire day.

• 22:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 22:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so I think that that's where we're talking about here is not just like, oh, make fun conversation and smile more. It's like, no, you can actually change someone's entire being. You can change their physiology.

• 23:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. But you've got to have the energy to show up in a certain way.

• 23:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, and it also shows up in the body differently. Like, there was a really interesting set of studies that looked at how we feel emotion. And they found that anger, for example, you have a lot of activity in the chest and the face and in the hands. Like, they're like bright, they get bright red because usually we feel that heat in our chest. We're usually yelling if we're angry, and then we might get into a fistfight. Whereas depression or sadness, we lose activity over our entire body. It's why people who are very sad or depressed want to be in bed, want to be horizontal. They have literally less activity in their limbs. So there's a lot going on that I think we still, it's very exciting. We have a lot left to learn about people. But I think that even what we know so far, there's a lot we can do with it.

• 23:54Lewis Howes?

  Amazing. Tell me about PQ.

• 23:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Lewis Howes?

  What is PQ?

• 24:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Interpersonal intelligence.

• 24:01Lewis Howes?

  And I love this because once, you're going to tell us what that is in a second, but you have a test in the first chapter, which tells you how your personality, what is it, your?

• 24:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Your interpersonal, your level, your interpersonal intelligence.

• 24:14Lewis Howes?

  Level.

• 24:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 24:15Lewis Howes?

  Got you. How socially like adaptive you are, essentially.

• 24:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. So I'm, I love quizzes. I can't help it. I love quizzes. It's my, I love checklists and all those to-do boxes and things. So I was very focused on IQ, right? Like, growing up, like, book smarts, technical skills. I never heard about PQ. I never heard about social or emotional intelligence. So there's all these IQ tests and things like that, but I found that what a really good way to start is like, where are, where is your smarts? Right? Like socially, what are your social strengths? Like, we even have like StrengthsFinder 2.0. I'm working on something right now where I want to do like Social Strengths 2.0. Like, what are our social strengths, which are just as important as some of our capabilities? And so the quiz is sort of like, okay, where are you at right

• 25:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  now? Right? Like, how good are you decoding? So we're talking about social intelligence. There's really two things we're talking about. Decoding, so spotting cues, spotting hidden emotions, decoding lies, and encoding. Encoding are the signals that you send out to others. So we're kind of testing both sides of that.

• 25:16Lewis Howes?

  Got it, got it. And I read that people with a higher EQ or PQ also make more than people.

• 25:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Twenty-nine thousand dollars more per year, according to this research.

• 25:27Lewis Howes?

  Than someone with a high IQ or a lower?

• 25:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Lower, lower EQ.

• 25:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, lower EQ. So higher EQ, you're gonna make more.

• 25:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's right.

• 25:35Lewis Howes?

  Ninety percent of the time.

• 25:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's right. And that's because we are interacting with people in ways that we don't even quantify or realize, right? Like every time you send an email, like that email has to be received, processed. There's a difference between having someone respond to it right away and having it sit in their inbox for five days.

• 25:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Negotiating, interviewing, around the water cooler. People still have water coolers in their office.

• 25:55Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 25:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Like, I, and my team is all virtual and I still am using that PQ every day, all day. One exercise that sometimes I think about, you can do this if you're listening, is in the course of a day, make a note of every single interpersonal reaction that you have. It will shock you how many of those there are and how big of an impact they have, right? Like, even if it's just like a casual coffee, all the possibilities that could come out of that interaction. And then, so you make one column where you mark out all the interactions you have. The second column is, if that interaction went as good as it could possibly go, what magic could happen for you?

• 26:33Lewis Howes?

  So much.

• 26:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So much. But instead, a lot of our interactions are like, meh.

• 26:38Lewis Howes?

  Average. So you get average results.

• 26:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly.

• 26:41Lewis Howes?

  And when you, you know, I'm thinking about it, I'm probably like, I have hundreds of these interactions a day potentially.

• 26:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You do.

• 26:45Lewis Howes?

  Especially with social media and emails and in person. And if you're at events, like, yesterday I was at Oprah's event, Supersoul Sessions. And there was like, you know, thousands of people, but I've met a lot of people.

• 26:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 26:56Lewis Howes?

  Even for like 10 seconds, I've met people.

• 26:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Lewis Howes?

  And I remember there were a number of people, even I just met and gave them a hug. Like, they always left a comment like, "Man, you give really good hugs."

• 27:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 27:07Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to just like, "Oh, nice to meet you," off. Like, they always said something.

• 27:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 27:11Lewis Howes?

  That was like a positive reinforcement. And for me, it's like, Maybe the next time and maybe months when I see them, but they'll remember I gave them a good hug.

• 27:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Absolutely. So that was, you took something in the interaction, even in 10 seconds and you made it above average.

• 27:23Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 27:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So Michael-

• 27:24Lewis Howes?

  I have awkward, long hugs. I try not to make them awkward, but I try to make them like, not like super awkward, like get off me, but like just a little extra, like an extra second.

• 27:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  A little extra second.

• 27:34Lewis Howes?

  Like right when they start to pull away, I squeeze.

• 27:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Want a little bit more.

• 27:37Lewis Howes?

  I squeeze a little bit more and they're like, oh, okay.

• 27:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 27:39Lewis Howes?

  I always do that.

• 27:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes.

• 27:41Lewis Howes?

  Sometimes it goes bad, but most of the time it works.

• 27:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I mean, I have a theory that you should greet everyone like they're an old friend.

• 27:46Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. That's good. Yes. That's what I do.

• 27:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hand hug. Yes.

• 27:50Lewis Howes?

  That's what I do.

• 27:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because if you have that mentality, same with an email, you give so much more, like excitement, whatever. It's like, oh my gosh, you haven't seen this friend in three years? How would you greet them? That is the way that I think I greet most people.

• 28:02Lewis Howes?

  Maybe not screaming up to them.

• 28:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Like that's the girl scream, right? Because two girls get together and like, immediately, I told you, like, the volume would go up on me. Once I got excited.

• 28:11Lewis Howes?

  No, you're kidding.

• 28:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, because like we scream, we go up. What I was gonna say also about that, which is really very smart, is it doesn't need to be a five minute interaction. It can be 10 seconds. A lot of the time we focus on productivity. You know, we focus on efficiency. We focus on maximizing our business revenue. All those things are great, but like, if we focus on some of the social aspects of that, it makes it so much easier. Like, let's not just optimize our IQ, our business acumen, let's also optimize our social acumen. Because you make that list of every interaction you have and all the good things that could happen if it went really well. It's magic in every other area.

• 28:46Lewis Howes?

  Magic.

• 28:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 28:47Lewis Howes?

  And, oh gosh, that's why I love this stuff. Because I feel like this has really been kind of the key to my results in my business and life. Because I would probably have, if I took an IQ test, I probably wouldn't even, you know, I don't know. I don't even know what the rankings are. I don't even know what the lowest is. I'd probably be at the bottom. And so for me, it's like, I just feel like I stack and stack and stack so much good, uh, PQ, is that right?

• 29:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:11Lewis Howes?

  EQ, PQ.

• 29:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly right.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  SQ, whatever you're calling it, social, yeah. And I feel like people care more about how you make them feel, you know, as opposed to how smart you are or whatever.

• 29:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And that quote, that famous quote, I think it's by Maya Angelou.

• 29:23Lewis Howes?

  People don't care how much you know until they know what you care is one quote.

• 29:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, and then people remember.

• 29:28Lewis Howes?

  They remember what you say, but they remember the way you made them feel.

• 29:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, God, quote, quote.

• 29:33Lewis Howes?

  Those are my two favorite quotes.

• 29:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, so I saw that quote, that second quote, what I just explained with the skydivers, that is the scientific reason behind that quote. So in the book, I talk about these quotes we share all the time, like the Dale Carnegie, how to, you know, be interested to be interesting, like, what is the science behind that?

• 29:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, not just like, oh, that's a cool philosophy.

• 29:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because now that Maya Angelou quote, you actually could think to yourself, what emotion do I want to infect today? Right, like, is it gratitude? Is it excitement? Is it fulfillment? And like, by the way, this doesn't mean that you cannot be vulnerable. This doesn't mean you can't have a bad day. This doesn't mean that you can't go into a meeting and be like, I'm so sorry, like, I am feeling really down. In fact, I have those days, we all do. I regularly do not cancel meetings on those days. I feel that I would rather go in and say, listen, like, I am just overwhelmed.

• 30:28Lewis Howes?

  I'm off today.

• 30:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, like, I'm off, I'm overwhelmed, I'm sorry for that. Because I also want to catch theirs, right? It's not just a one-way street, we don't just infect. I also like to be infected by others. And so I feel like, and not every time this has worked, but a lot of the time it works, when I come to someone and I'm like, I am so stressed about this book launch, right? Like, I am terrified. Like, recently, fully honest, I am in so much fear.

• 30:54Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 30:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, my God, I am so.

• 30:56Lewis Howes?

  The book?

• 30:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 30:57Lewis Howes?

  Why? What are you afraid of?

• 30:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Everything. I'm afraid that people aren't gonna like it. I'm afraid that people are gonna be like, you're not a real expert, you're an awkward person, how could you write a book? I'm like afraid that it's gonna get out there and be misused or misrepresented. I'm afraid that I put all this energy into launching, you know, launching is such a big thing, and it's gonna fail.

• 31:20Lewis Howes?

  What's failing?

• 31:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  For me, it would be

• 31:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  no one reading it.

• 31:30Lewis Howes?

  Okay, well, that's not gonna happen. I've already read it, so. You've succeeded.

• 31:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You had to read it. I forced myself onto your podcast. You had to read it.

• 31:38Lewis Howes?

  My production manager read it.

• 31:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It could be two people.

• 31:43Lewis Howes?

  People are gonna read it because it's powerful and it's what people need if they want to get results in their life. If you want to make more money, if you want to have better relationships, if you want to not be in pain and suffering, then you need to read the book.

• 31:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I wrote it for me. I wrote it for them. So I think that going in with these fears is not necessarily a bad thing because then I can say, "Please infect me with calm." Right? Like, "You are so calm and so confident that that made me feel better." Right? You're like, "What do you mean? It's gonna be great." Like, "I know what this book is." I'm like, "Right. Like, if Lewis knows it, okay." Like, "Lewis knows it."

• 32:13Lewis Howes?

  But you also have proof. Your blog does well, your courses do well, and this is like an enhancement of those.

• 32:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I mean, you know, we could talk about business models if you want. This was an interesting platform change for me because my platform is B2B and B2C. I've never had a book piece in a platform.

• 32:28Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 32:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So it was an interesting addition to add in a book piece, which you know, not just online courses. Yeah, it's a new platform play and I'm excited about it, but it's different. I've never done it before.

• 32:39Lewis Howes?

  It's gonna bring you a lot more opportunities.

• 32:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I hope so.

• 32:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it will.

• 32:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I hope so. People always ask, "Should I write a book?" And I've self-published and I traditionally published. And that's like a totally different, they're totally different bags, those two buckets.

• 32:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What was this publisher again?

• 32:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Penguin Random House Portfolio.

• 32:53Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 32:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And they're fantastic.

• 32:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're gonna be fine.

• 32:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like your goal.

• 32:58Lewis Howes?

  Don't worry about it.

• 32:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Wait, can I tell you something, though?

• 33:00Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 33:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. So, neuroticism. I'm a high neurotic. And I, people are always like, "Neurotic, it's such a bad word." But neurotic is a way, it's a way of talking about emotional stability. You are, I think, low neurotic, yes? You're not very neurotic. You're very emotionally stable.

• 33:19Lewis Howes?

  I can have triggered moments that make me frustrated and yeah, but I think I'm pretty emotionally stable.

• 33:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 33:25Lewis Howes?

  But I like things the way I like them.

• 33:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh.

• 33:28Lewis Howes?

  And so when it's not the way I like it, I, you know.

• 33:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 33:31Lewis Howes?

  I get frustrated, but.

• 33:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So that's about the ritual, like the habit of setting things up.

• 33:36Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 33:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  As a lone neurotic, you told me it will be fine.

• 33:40Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 33:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Now, for my high neurotics listening, you might know who you are. When people tell you it will be fine, it actually makes you more nervous.

• 33:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 33:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 33:50Lewis Howes?

  You know what, it's not gonna be fine. You need to work harder. You're screwed. You're gonna fail.

• 33:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so.

• 33:56Lewis Howes?

  Is that what I should say?

• 33:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So like, when, I know this sounds crazy, but so neuroticism is one of the five personality traits. And it is actually, it's genetic. And what I mean by that is, so how we look at neuroticism is by the serotonin transport gene. I promise this won't get too scientific, but this made me feel a lot of relief when I read this. So serotonin is a very, very lovely little chemical that makes us feel calm. It calms us down, yes. Like if we like almost get hurt and we're like, oh. Then like serotonin is what floods our body to say, you're okay, everything will be fine. Serotonin, its mantra is, everything will be fine.

• 34:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  High neurotics carry a special form of the serotonin transport gene, which means they do not produce as much serotonin and it goes more slowly.

• 34:43Lewis Howes?

  That's why they're more neurotic.

• 34:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly. Because when I have something bad that happens to me, it takes me longer to calm down than you.

• 34:50Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. Depends on the thing.

• 34:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Totally depends on the thing.

• 34:53Lewis Howes?

  On the trigger.

• 34:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly.

• 34:54Lewis Howes?

  If I feel like I've been attacked or something, or been like, something's been questioned about me or something, or someone did something to me wrong, I felt like wronged, then sometimes it could be weeks that I hold on to it.

• 35:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, interesting.

• 35:06Lewis Howes?

  It depends on the thing, but other things I'm gonna be like, ah, whatever. Like if someone's like flipping me off in the streets or something, or in the driving, I'm like, alright, on to the next.

• 35:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So that, that my friend, is a resource language thing. So that means that you have a resource language of status, which means that if someone has challenged you, that there's a respect issue, there was a wronging, there was a disloyalty there.

• 35:29Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 35:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Your value was taken from you in terms of resources. So there are six, there are six resources. Status, information, money, goods, services, and love.

• 35:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We all have, need all of these resources, but we typically want the resource we did not get in our childhood.

• 35:44Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 35:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Absolutely.

• 35:45Lewis Howes?

  I mean, I was sexually abused, so for me, when I feel like anyone's taking advantage of me.

• 35:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It triggers.

• 35:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 35:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Absolutely right.

• 35:52Lewis Howes?

  So I understand it, you know.

• 35:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, and it threatens you. So when, when you talk about neuroticism, someone who cannot self calm as much, they are more anxious because they know it will affect them for longer.

• 36:03Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, it's becoming more anxious, yeah.

• 36:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, so that is. So I hire people who will worry for me. Like, not literally, I don't have like official warriors on my team, but my lovely team, like, I will say, Danielle, can you just worry about this for me?

• 36:16Lewis Howes?

  Smart.

• 36:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Can you just, because I know that if she's worrying about it, I don't have to.

• 36:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So you'll notice in relationships, partnerships with colleagues, you have to be able to ask for your resource theory. You have to be able to ask for things that will keep you calm.

• 36:29Lewis Howes?

  Can you take care of this for me? Can you handle this for me?

• 36:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly, and what your trigger points are. So for a high neurotic, it might be emotional stability, right? Like worry or anxiety, and having someone else share that worry with you makes you feel better. So in a typical male female relationship, typical, and this is not everyone.

• 36:45Lewis Howes?

  Generalized, yeah.

• 36:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Generalized, the woman is the warrior, the man is not the warrior, not always, but sometimes. So for example, in my relationship, my husband is the rock, right? So I'm really worried about something and he'll be like, it'll all be fine, babe.

• 36:56Lewis Howes?

  And that makes you even more worried.

• 36:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Because I want to know that I'm not the only one worrying.

• 37:00Lewis Howes?

  So what if he says, you know what, don't worry about it, I'll handle it?

• 37:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, now we're getting better.

• 37:04Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 37:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 37:05Lewis Howes?

  Then you can say, alright, he's gonna take care of it.

• 37:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Whoo, I like that, especially if he's actually.

• 37:09Lewis Howes?

  Then you can let go of it?

• 37:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I get on the way to help, quicker, right? Here, here would be the ultimate.

• 37:14Lewis Howes?

  Like, I got this, here, I'll show you, go do something else.

• 37:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, see, that's, that would like be magic, right? If he was like.

• 37:20Lewis Howes?

  Does he not do that?

• 37:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He does, now he does do that, right?

• 37:23Lewis Howes?

  Cause he communicated what you need, yeah.

• 37:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, so he'll say, like, I'll be worried about, I don't know, I don't know, like, planning something for an in-law trip or something like that, right? And he'll be like, babe, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna book the flights. I'm gonna let my mom know about our timing. We're gonna make sure that we have early reservations. And we're gonna make sure that all these things are taken care of.

• 37:41Lewis Howes?

  You pack a week in advance?

• 37:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. I'm the packer, actually.

• 37:44Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I pack as he does the travel.

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 37:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, so like, that, like, I think that when we talk about how we're wired, it helps us not wanna change the person we're with. So the biggest mistake, especially when we're talking about personality or resource language, is we hope that we can make someone better. The problem is, is that we are wired a certain way. Thirty-five to fifty-five percent of our personality is genetic. The rest is shaped in early childhood. So, yes, while we do have some ability to change our personality, that's called free trait theory. You can optimize parts of your personality to achieve your goals.

• 38:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and you can be aware of it, and so you can move out of a shifter.

• 38:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hundred percent. It is much better to figure out, how can I work with my partner, colleague, friends, resource language need, or personality in a better way? So, for example, one of the personality traits is openness. So openness is like adventurous, adventurous, adventur-ness, creativity, new ideas. People who are high open always wanna try new restaurants. They wanna go to new places. They're always trying new ways of doing things in their business. They're the boss that's like, "Let's try this, let's try that, let's do this." Low open people love habit and tradition and routine. They love having things set up the same way every time. They like to honor that routine. It makes them feel whole and one. So if you have people in a relationship where someone's high open-

• 39:01Lewis Howes?

  They're opposites, eh? You're like, constantly stressed.

• 39:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You don't have to be, but you're constantly stressed. It would be better to be like, for the high open person to be like, "Hey, I, it's really important to me to be adventurous with food. Trying new restaurants is a thing. Is that okay with you? I'm totally okay with having the morning routine be the same, having our grocery shopping be the same."

• 39:21Lewis Howes?

  Smart.

• 39:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But on this area, that makes me feel alive.

• 39:24Lewis Howes?

  Two nights a week, we're going somewhere different.

• 39:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly. Or, do I need to have a friend who's my adventurous eater?

• 39:28Lewis Howes?

  Right, yeah.

• 39:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That, that's like, I think, something that we don't always negotiate in that way. And as soon as you have the language, it makes it a non-hot-button issue.

• 39:37Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So instead of-

• 39:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I want to try a new place. You always want to try a new place. That's a hot button issue, right? Versus, hey, like Thursdays are night out, night. Are you open to trying somewhere new? Or should I call my friend George?

• 39:52Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. Like, that's a very different kind of conversation. And my goal is not to get rid of your fights, it's to make them discussions.

• 39:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, not fights.

• 39:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 40:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:02Lewis Howes?

  So you said you wanted to talk about something in the beginning, about personalities.

• 40:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I did.

• 40:07Lewis Howes?

  Now, what is this specifically?

• 40:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. So you're like, I don't know about this topic.

• 40:13Lewis Howes?

  Let's hear it.

• 40:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So when we talk about science of personality, there's a lot of things out there. DISC and Enneagram and Myers-Briggs and all these things. The only one that is scientifically based is the Big Five. And it's five personality traits.

• 40:26Lewis Howes?

  The Five Love Languages?

• 40:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's, we talk about the Five Love Languages, actually. That's a good one, too. So there's like special five, Five Love Languages and the Five Big Five.

• 40:33Lewis Howes?

  Yes. I know that's not scientific, the love languages.

• 40:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Actually, I mean-

• 40:36Lewis Howes?

  Although it seems-

• 40:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There is some science.

• 40:38Lewis Howes?

  Very practical.

• 40:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There is some science behind it.

• 40:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, there is. And the Big Five has a lot. And so everyone has these Big Five personality traits and they're either high or low in them.

• 40:49Lewis Howes?

  It's one or the other. High, low. There's no middle.

• 40:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There is middle. It is a spectrum. This is the biggest difference between like Myers-Briggs that like labels you like an extrovert or introvert. Like, a lot of people like really struggle with that label.

• 41:00Lewis Howes?

  Well, I'm kind of both, or I'm in the middle.

• 41:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly. So it's all, every trait is a spectrum. And like, we have like a nice spectrum and you kind of place yourself on it. A lot of these personality traits are not our choice. So that is why I brought up the serotonin thing for neuroticism. The greatest understanding that we can have about ourselves is to know that our reactions, our emotional reactions are part of how we are wired. So a lot of the times, like you feel guilty, or jealous, or all these dirty emotions, right? The negative emotions that we don't like to feel. And then we judge ourselves for them.

• 41:32Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 41:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like, ugh, I'm so not gracious right now. I'm so not feeling my gratitude. But actually, your optimism or your negativity is wired within you. So you're better off trying to figure out, what are my triggers? How am I natural out and how can I optimize that? So we talked about openness, right? Figuring out how you can balance routine versus something new. Talked a little bit about neuroticism. The other one that I wanted to bring up was conscientiousness. So conscientiousness in a relationship, studies have found that this is the biggest one. That if you have a difference in your partner's conscientiousness, you have the most relationship problems.

• 42:08Lewis Howes?

  Say it again.

• 42:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So if you are different than your partner's conscientiousness, scientifically speaking, you're more likely to have more relationship problems.

• 42:16Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 42:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So conscientiousness, yeah. Conscientiousness is how you approach detail. So high conscientious people, this would be me, we love to do this.

• 42:26Lewis Howes?

  Details, everything.

• 42:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Details, alphabetizing, steps, routine. Like, we love lots of things.

• 42:31Lewis Howes?

  And if your partner is like, I could care less about it. And it's like, oh, loosey goosey, like, hey, you know, we'll get it to it someday.

• 42:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Low conscientiousness is exactly what you just said. Big ideas.

• 42:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Strategy, doesn't want to get bogged down in the details.

• 42:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This is you, right?

• 42:48Lewis Howes?

  That's not me. I like the detail, but I just see where you're coming from. It's funny, yeah.

• 42:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. And so what happens is, is you have people who are like, hey, let's plan a vacation. I have a color-coded spreadsheet with all the different possible locations and approximate weather in those locations. And then you have the low conscientious person who's like, let's just fly to a place and figure it out when we get there.

• 43:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I like that, too.

• 43:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I think you're in the middle.

• 43:11Lewis Howes?

  I think I'm in the middle. Here's the thing, because I love big ideas and I love strategizing about them. But I know, as an athlete, you've got to execute on a daily basis if you want to make them happen.

• 43:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ooh, that's a different thing, what you just said there. Okay.

• 43:24Lewis Howes?

  So here's what I do now. Tell me what you're going to say.

• 43:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 43:28Lewis Howes?

  So I come up with the ideas and then... I hire the people who are very detailed and say, run with it. So I can come up with more big ideas and then bring them back to you and say, now we're gonna do this. Now run with that. So I, you know, hire people with those strengths to work with me on that.

• 43:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The way that, I don't know if you guys heard what Lewis just said, which is, that is so free trade theory. So what, what you said is, I basically, I optimize. I know that details are important as an athlete. I know that details are important in my business. So either I work those details out in a workout routine, or I hire those people. So that is a great example of how you can take what you naturally are and then free trade there, optimize it.

• 44:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 44:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So that you leverage it up. So I would say that you're probably medium-low.

• 44:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But you know how to turn it up in the areas that it's needed, which is probably one of the reasons why you're so successful.

• 44:17Lewis Howes?

  It depends too. As an athlete, I didn't have, I couldn't hire anyone to do the work for me. It was like I had to train all day. I had to do the research. I had, you know, I was constantly studying game film. I was practicing. I was doing everything myself.

• 44:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, can't export it.

• 44:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you can't. You gotta, you gotta do it yourself as an athlete. So, um, so I understood it. But now that I have more resources and, you know, different part of my life, I can optimize the thing that I like doing the most.

• 44:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I, I think that that is the key to happiness, right? Like we, I did a whole, um, two-year study on happiness. And we can get into if you'd like to.

• 44:48Lewis Howes?

  Did you write a book about it?

• 44:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I didn't yet. I have an online course on it, but I didn't write a book on it yet. And I wrote it from the place of like, I'm also not a naturally like a happy person. Like I'm a worrier. And so like, I really have to work at it.

• 45:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And, um, what I learned was, is that it's actually not the big things that make you happy. It's the little things, including.

• 45:12Lewis Howes?

  That cup of coffee you're gonna get later as a treat.

• 45:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, like the smell of the coffee, like the amazing juice at Creation, whatever, right? Like, oh, the smoothness of it. By the way, everyone, I went to, I went to Creation with Lewis.

• 45:23Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 45:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And you downed your juice faster than I could drink.

• 45:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It was impressive. I was like, where did it go? It was magic. Um, so yeah, so saving those things and also those moments where you have optimized your natural personality instead of changing it. That is where happiness comes from. When you can say, I'm a big idea person. I love creativity. I love strategizing. I love big ideas and big pictures. Getting bogged down in the details is necessary, but I don't like it. So therefore, I'm going to find a way to either outsource it or minimize it, so I can focus on those things. That feeling of capability, that feeling of control, is incredibly happiness-making. Control is a very happy-making emotion. You know, we think about happiness as like, pleasure and joy and ecstasy.

• 46:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But actually, you know, the words for happiness are control, capability.

• 46:18Lewis Howes?

  Like feeling like you're in control, right? Not like controlling people or something, but feeling like you're in control of your results or your life.

• 46:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, and one example of this that I like thinking about is, there's this thing called the Tetris effect. I don't know if you've ever heard of this. So these researchers had students.

• 46:37Lewis Howes?

  They said the Tetris, I was like Tetris effect?

• 46:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But I like that one too. That's very happy-making. That's good too. Yes, we can hand hug later. Hand hug, yeah. Yeah, so this is not as fun as the Tetris effect, yes. So what researchers did, this was not a study on happiness. They brought students in, they had them play Tetris for like four hours.

• 46:59Lewis Howes?

  Sounds fun. I haven't played Tetris in probably 20 years, but I used to love playing games all the time.

• 47:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It is addictive, yeah. So they were testing something about the brain. And an unexpected result of this study is that students left the lab and were literally seeing their entire life like a Tetris board. They wanted to rearrange their furniture like Tetris. They wanted to like stand in line like Tetris. They wanted to reorganize their shelving like Tetris. And they realized that in a weird way, they had primed the brain to think in a Tetris-like pattern. So what happens is, is typically humans have a negativity bias. We are trained to see the negative things in the world, the bad things. This is a survival mechanism, right? As cavemen, we had to go, hmm, it might rain. I better get ahead. I should really forage for the winter.

• 47:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know, like we are trained to see all the problems and potential things that could go wrong, so we could prepare ourselves. So our bias, our training is negative, negative, negative. We open our email and go, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? Right? We walk into a room and we're like, who don't I know? Why don't I belong? I'm not saying everyone has this, but there's certain extremes. I think that we can retrain our brain, just like the Tetris effect, to see in happiness patterns. So instead of walking into a room and being like, ah, I don't belong. I don't know anyone. Thinking about, why do I belong? Who can I know? That's a very different kind of framework to see the world.

• 48:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so I think that that's about control. Right? That that's bringing control into a negative mindset and flipping it.

• 48:30Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 48:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So that it's not necessarily positive. You just know where your frame is coming from.

• 48:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, okay. Control. What was the other thing?

• 48:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Control, capability and optimization.

• 48:39Lewis Howes?

  That's the key to happiness.

• 48:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Those three things are, I think, are the key to happiness, yes.

• 48:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Okay, cool.

• 48:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I think that they're under, underappreciated.

• 48:49Lewis Howes?

  I got it.

• 48:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Especially with capability.

• 48:50Lewis Howes?

  Okay. So where else? Did I get us off track?

• 48:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think I got us off track. I got like down the happiness.

• 48:55Lewis Howes?

  You were gonna say, so we're talking about personality, something, right?

• 48:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, so the last thing I was gonna say was with conscientiousness is thinking about, if your partner is a big idea person.

• 49:05Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 49:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or a detail person. Same with your colleagues.

• 49:07Lewis Howes?

  You said the most conflict of.

• 49:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's the most conflicts. Where you have, why didn't you clean up? I did clean up. This isn't clean.

• 49:14Lewis Howes?

  Not the way I want.

• 49:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly.

• 49:16Lewis Howes?

  So you and your partner, your husband, are you guys complete opposites in that space then?

• 49:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He is much lower conscientious than I am.

• 49:22Lewis Howes?

  So how does that work?

• 49:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So we figured it out. So for example, we figured out what needs to be changed and what doesn't. So like, for example, I like an organized sock drawer. My husband doesn't care if he's wearing whatever on his feet, right? So we have, after many months of being like, did you get your socks? Did you fold your socks? Your socks are everywhere. I was like, you know what? Like, that is his drawer. We do not share a drawer any longer. He has his side of the closet.

• 49:45Lewis Howes?

  He has what he wants.

• 49:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I have my side of the closet. So instead of trying to change him and teach him how to have a better sock drawer, I was like, no, that's a waste of both of our, it's not, it's not real to who we are. I'd rather have us optimize and say, that's his, this is mine. That's a really small example, a very like concrete example, but there's bigger ones as well. For example, if you are talking about a friendship or how you wanna raise children. Someone who is high conscientious is gonna wanna break down all the details and plan for every eventuality, where someone who's a big picture person is gonna be like, "Let's meet the kid and let's see what we think."

• 50:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 50:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And those can be major value differences. So instead of getting angry at them or trying to convince them to be more like you, big idea or detailed, the better conversation is, "Why don't you want to pre-plan? Or why do you think that going by the seat of your pants is better? Like, where is the value there? How can we pick this based on actual strengths and not how we're wired?"

• 50:42Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I think that's a very different kind of conversation to have. So the three things, the ones I would focus on is, how organized someone is, how big of an open, adventurous someone is, and how much of a warrior someone is.

• 50:53Lewis Howes?

  And it's okay if they're opposite on both of those, all those things with you, but you just have to figure out how to...

• 50:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Optimize them. And by the way, if you're single, I think that one of the things to think about is like, what is your ideal personality match? I know this is a crazy way to think about dating. Like, most people are like, they don't think about this, but like, I think that if you're dating...

• 51:13Lewis Howes?

  That's where a lot of stress comes from.

• 51:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  A lot!

• 51:15Lewis Howes?

  A lot of pain and suffering in a relationship comes from it.

• 51:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, and I think that like, a really fun, maybe this is me, this is my idea of fun, I think a really fun conversation you can have in the beginning of a relationship, the first few dates, is like, "So like, I read this book, or I listened to this podcast on personality, you know, are you a big idea person or detail person? Are you a morning person or are you a night person?" Right, like, those kind of conversations early are so much better than when they normally come out, which is on the first fight.

• 51:39Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to just having like this chemical attraction and being like, "Oh, we love each other," and it's like, you know...

• 51:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, we'll figure it all out.

• 51:44Lewis Howes?

  Hook up constantly, yeah.

• 51:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, yeah, and remember that people will free-trait, they'll optimize during the lust phase, so that you don't actually know how much they are. This happened to me recently, I hired a developer, and in his interview process, he came across as very high conscientious. He sent phases, sent the proposal, I was like, "Great, this is wonderful," because I work well with other high conscientious people. But he optimized for me during the interview process. Because I did not, of course.

• 52:08Lewis Howes?

  Put his best foot forward.

• 52:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Of course, so I didn't ask the right questions, which should have been. So, over the course of this eight-month project, how do you like to work? Are you a weekly check-in kind of a person?

• 52:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I kinda like to check in once in a while.

• 52:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then I would have, I would have immediately found out.

• 52:23Lewis Howes?

  Like, oh, it's not a good fit, yeah.

• 52:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then I would have been like, shoot. He's a kinda do-it-as-you-do-it kinda guy. But I didn't know to ask those questions. So I think in the beginning of all relationships, the best thing we can do is don't let the lust overcome us. Right?

• 52:36Lewis Howes?

  It's so tough. In personal relationships, in business relationships, all that, yeah.

• 52:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I've seen in dating profiles, people will put their MBTI in dating profiles sometimes.

• 52:44Lewis Howes?

  MBTI?

• 52:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The Myers-Briggs, like ENFJ or INFJ.

• 52:48Lewis Howes?

  In dating profiles?

• 52:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I've seen it. I have seen it in dating profiles.

• 52:50Lewis Howes?

  People are obsessed with that stuff.

• 52:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  People are obsessed with it.

• 52:52Lewis Howes?

  Someone always tells me what I am, but I forget it. Um, I can't remember.

• 52:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  ENFJ?

• 52:57Lewis Howes?

  I think so, maybe. Yeah.

• 52:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, maybe. But that Myers-Briggs, remember, is not scientifically based. Because it, because also, we do change over time slightly. And it's hard if you have one label, like if, like if you're just E, it gives you very little wiggle room.

• 53:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't like that.

• 53:12Lewis Howes?

  There's another, uh, personality test with four quadrants. Have you seen this?

• 53:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  DISC.

• 53:17Lewis Howes?

  Is that what it is? Where it's promoter, supporter, analyzer, controller.

• 53:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 53:22Lewis Howes?

  Have you seen that?

• 53:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think, I think that that's DISC, but I've seen that one, yes.

• 53:25Lewis Howes?

  Promoter, supporter, analyzer, controller. And you kind of like, you rank, you go through a quiz of figuring out which quadrant you're the highest at.

• 53:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 53:33Lewis Howes?

  So you'd be, you know, I'm a promoter controller. I'm first off promoter, I'm like a big idea, I'm passionate, I'm like excited, let's go, let's do this. I like to be in control, I like to, you know, have all those things. Uh, and then it's support, analyze. It's kinda like the top four. But really, I'm like, very close to almost all of them. Like, all of them are pretty high, so I'm almost like, very spread out. And like, the true leaders, I hear, is what they say, is like, you wanna be able to tap into each quadrant. To connect to an analyzer. If they're an analyzer, you want to be able to be analytical with them. If they're a promoter, you want to be promoting with them. If they're a supporter, you want to be in support with them.

• 54:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 54:09Lewis Howes?

  So you're always meeting someone where they're at, not trying to have them meet you where you're at.

• 54:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So it's like a flexible leadership style.

• 54:15Lewis Howes?

  Flexible leadership.

• 54:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That is the same thing with emotional intelligence.

• 54:18Lewis Howes?

  It is. This is emotional intelligence. That's what it is.

• 54:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And it's the exact same thing with that. And also like expressiveness.

• 54:23Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 54:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  For example, like from a nonverbal perspective, if someone shows up and they're like super bubbly and super excited and the other person's like kind of calm.

• 54:31Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 54:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's a mismatch.

• 54:33Lewis Howes?

  You gotta meet them where they're at.

• 54:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, you gotta meet them where they're at.

• 54:35Lewis Howes?

  You get a little bit ahead and you know, try to get them to that space, but.

• 54:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, I think that matching and mirroring is an interesting way to think about interactions, especially like phone calls. We're doing a bunch of research right now on vocal power, and which you think about vocal power probably all the time because a lot of people are listening.

• 54:52Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 54:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So what we found was, well, there's, there's an interesting anchor study here where they looked at doctors. And they found that doctors who record 10 second voice tone clips, so hello, my name is Dr. Edwards. I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital and I specialize in oncology. Something like that. They took those clips and they warbled the words. So you couldn't understand the words that were being said. So it was.

• 55:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They asked people to rate those clips on intelligence, warmth, competence. And imagine this for a second, like you hear a clip of like gobbledygook, like.

• 55:25Lewis Howes?

  How could you rate it? Yeah, yeah.

• 55:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exact, how could you, but people do. They found that the doctors who got rated the lowest in intelligence and warmth also had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits. Yeah.

• 55:38Lewis Howes?

  Just based on confidence in voice.

• 55:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Somehow, we don't sue people. We don't sue doctors based on their actual skills. We sue doctors based on our perception of their skills. So in your voice, how they show up, how they sound, it does not have to do with the verbal. Remember how at the very beginning I was like, whatever you say in those first few seconds is actually not as important as what you're showing up as. We even catch that on the phone. So your vocal power, you know, how you say hello. And like what's interesting is the biggest mistake people make.

• 56:09Lewis Howes?

  Hello.

• 56:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh my gosh. Hello.

• 56:11Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 56:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. So tone, cadence, and pitch. Also, another one is like people will hold their breath while they answer. So they go, hello? That's the highest end of my vocal range. I'm working very hard right now to keep my vocal range in the lowest possible range.

• 56:26Lewis Howes?

  What's more calm and relaxing.

• 56:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Much more calm.

• 56:29Lewis Howes?

  It's like stressed out.

• 56:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Better resonance, right, a better resonance point. So if you hear yourself and you hear yourself going a little bit higher in your range.

• 56:37Lewis Howes?

  It's not good.

• 56:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The best thing you can do is actually speak on the out breath. So if you hear the difference, so I'm gonna make myself go tense. So if I get really excited and I tense my vocal cord, I sound a little bit nervous, a little bit more like a child. Now, if I speak on the out breath, it forces the words out, it relaxes my vocal cords, and it makes me sound more resonant. So the best thing you can do is actually answer on the out breath. So not hello versus hello. A very, very different.

• 57:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  All these careers I could do.

• 57:08Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. It's funny, I heard, uh, my brother told me that he read some science project or something where research on, when he's on the phone, he smiles when he's like saying goodbye. He's like smiling in the last like 30 seconds and he says people can feel that on the other side.

• 57:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, okay, so that is absolutely right. There are 16 different kinds of smiles that can be detected from voice tone alone.

• 57:33Lewis Howes?

  Wow, 16.

• 57:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  16 different kinds of smiles. What's interesting is we're on our vocal study that we're doing right now. We haven't published this research yet, but it's super interesting. We found preliminary results. We had the same people record hello with different body language expressions.

• 57:51Lewis Howes?

  Hello.

• 57:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly.

• 57:52Lewis Howes?

  Like slung over, like.

• 57:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We can do it right now, actually, let's try it. See if you can guess what we're doing. So like, let's do like this one, like really, yeah, hello.

• 58:01Lewis Howes?

  Hello.

• 58:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, versus hello.

• 58:05Lewis Howes?

  Hello.

• 58:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, so like that's low power versus high power, right? It's like it's supposed to change our voice. Now, we make them do it for a little bit longer because it's very quick. And we also had them do micro expressions. So happiness micro expression, anger micro expression was when you pull your eyebrows together, harden your lips, versus sadness micro expression, so that's when you pinch your inner corners together. Yep, and we had them record hellos.

• 58:27Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 58:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then we had people in our lab, or participants, and you can go play if you want, listen to these clips, and rate them on warmth, competence, and charisma. The same person will get totally different ratings based on how they are holding their face and their body.

• 58:42Lewis Howes?

  So how you hold yourself on the phone matters.

• 58:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This is the same thing we were talking about earlier, which is like, what do you want to infect, right? If you answer the phone sad, and anxious, and distracted, not only do people perceive you as sad, anxious, distracted, they catch those emotions too.

• 58:58Lewis Howes?

  So what's the best thing people should do before they answer the phone?

• 59:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Outbreath. So not holding your breath in. So like, if you can take one or two deep breaths before you answer, it will relax your vocal cord, right? So, "Oh, you're like picking it up, who is it?" Yeah, a couple of deep breaths, and then, "Hello." So that's the first thing you can do. It relaxes your vocal cords.

• 59:16Lewis Howes?

  Should you say hello? Or if it's a friend, you're like, "Hey, what's up?"

• 59:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Either one.

• 59:20Lewis Howes?

  "Good looking."

• 59:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Either one. I like that, that'd be even better. That's a compliment. I like a compliment, anyway.

• 59:24Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 59:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, so like, "Hey, this is Louis." "Hello." "Hey buddy, what's up?" Right, so one or two deep breaths.

• 59:30Lewis Howes?

  So it doesn't matter what you say.

• 59:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly.

• 59:32Lewis Howes?

  It's the energy and how you're saying it.

• 59:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 59:33Lewis Howes?

  Just like when you're meeting a person.

• 59:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly. So breath, yes. Breath, oh, I didn't get an explosion. Yes, breath. I'm not cool like that.

• 59:42Lewis Howes?

  You are cool.

• 59:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I cannot do a fist bump like that.

• 59:44Lewis Howes?

  You're cool.

• 59:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Can we just like wave at each other? That's like way more comfortable for me.

• 59:47Lewis Howes?

  Hey guys!

• 59:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hey guys! Yeah, so outbreath is actually the most important one. If you can do it. The second one would be to try to actually just be as expressive as they are. So if you hear that, so you say, "Hello," right? And they're like, "Hey, what's up?"

• 1:00:01Lewis Howes?

  "Oh, hey, what's up?"

• 1:00:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, "Hey, what's up?" Right, like that match is like an instant, "I'm with you. I'm on the same page."

• 1:00:09Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:00:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Especially for business.

• 1:00:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Especially for business.

• 1:00:13Lewis Howes?

  Okay, I want to get to the final part of talking about lying.

• 1:00:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:00:17Lewis Howes?

  And how you can tell if someone's lying.

• 1:00:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, oh god. So I

• 1:00:22Lewis Howes?

  You don't have much of this in the book, right?

• 1:00:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't. I don't have very much of this in the book.

• 1:00:25Lewis Howes?

  Why don't you have this in the book?

• 1:00:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The reason is because I think this is one of those evil superpowers. Yeah, it's like, it's like muhaha, it's like that. Because it is very powerful. The science behind lie detection is, is very concrete. It's not a guessing game. We do know a lot about what people, what happens to people when they lie. The problem is, is amateur lie detectors do worse than people who don't know anything about lying.

• 1:00:49Lewis Howes?

  Ah, got it.

• 1:00:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That, so my, my, always my worry is like, oh my gosh, if I give someone a little bit of information, I actually make them worse. So for example, in the biggest study on lie detection that was done, we can spot lies with 54% accuracy.

• 1:01:03Lewis Howes?

  So flip a coin?

• 1:01:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exa- exactly. It's terrible. Like, we're terrible. By the way, like, police officers don't, oh. So can you guess there's one group that did better on this? It's not police officers, it's not doctors, it's not teachers.

• 1:01:16Lewis Howes?

  Kids.

• 1:01:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, I, I wish it was kids. They actually didn't test kids because that's a whole different IRB process.

• 1:01:20Lewis Howes?

  Who could test, who, who was more efficient in seeing if there's a lie?

• 1:01:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It was.

• 1:01:24Lewis Howes?

  Someone was lying? Is that what you're saying? The group?

• 1:01:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Prison inmates.

• 1:01:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that makes sense.

• 1:01:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. As soon as I read that, I was like, oh yeah. And they, they joked, like, the, said a lot of sections, like, it takes one to know one.

• 1:01:37Lewis Howes?

  Oh yeah, of course.

• 1:01:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? And so that was like very interesting to me.

• 1:01:40Lewis Howes?

  Can't BS her.

• 1:01:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exa- exactly. So.

• 1:01:43Lewis Howes?

  Can't steal from a thief, you know?

• 1:01:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  All those things. Yes, exactly. The same thing happens with lying. So the problem is, is that the moment you give an amateur, like liar, like someone amateur tips, their ability goes below 55%. It gets even worse.

• 1:01:57Lewis Howes?

  That I'm no, yeah.

• 1:01:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because it's like, you need the whole system. But I think there's a couple of things that, if you are interested in this thing, or in this idea, this topic, there's a couple of things that you want to start with. And there are things that can immediately help you spot lies in your life. Are you ready?

• 1:02:11Lewis Howes?

  Let's do it.

• 1:02:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. The first thing that you want to look for are incongruencies. So in interactions, it's very easy to control our words, right? Anyone can say anything. What you're looking for is incongruencies with the body or voice tone. So for example, if I were to show up and be like, I'm so happy to be here today, right? Like, you can hear it. Our body language has 12.5 times more weight than our words. So with liars, what you're looking for is leaks. Leaks are incongruencies. A very common one is, in Western cultures, an up and down nod. A vertical nod means yes, and a horizontal one means no. So an incongruency would be...

• 1:02:49Lewis Howes?

  Like, yes.

• 1:02:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, exactly. Or like, and for people who are listening, I'm shaking my head opposite. So it would be, "So, did you take the cookies from the cookie jar?" No?

• 1:03:00Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:03:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Shaking their head, yes, right? So that's like a leak. That's something that we often see, where we're seeing some kind of incongruency. The other big kind of incongruency is micro-expressions. And this is something that I do talk about in the book. It's sort of the first step to lie detection, is learning how to read faces.

• 1:03:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And the most important facial expression to recognize, this is the most powerful one, is the expression of contempt. So contempt is a one-sided mouth raise. Smirk. Dr. John Gottman, he analyzed thousands of couples in his lab, looking for patterns in marriages. He found that couples who showed contempt towards the other, with 93% accuracy, would get divorced within 30 years. I mean, you don't hear stats like that very often.

• 1:03:45Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:03:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So contempt is a really interesting one. You see it a lot on liars, because if someone is truly happy about something, or very excited to see you, or happy to be there, there's no reason they're gonna show contempt or the smirk. It often will come out, either because they're actually not happy with what they're saying, or they hate having to lie. Liars hate lying. So oftentimes, we did a big lie detection experiment. We had people play two truths and a lie with us. And we analyzed their videos. Oh, yes, it was...

• 1:04:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Wanna play, Lewis?

• 1:04:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, so like, we actually analyzed their cues. Liars hate to lie. We don't like the feeling in our body when we lie. It feels really unauthentic. So sometimes you'll see a liar who will make contempt, because they're like, "Oh, I really don't want to have to do this." And they hold their mouth in that side contempt expression, because they really don't like it. So the two things that I want you to look out for, and if you're starting to see it, that means you actually have an eye for it, is contempt when there shouldn't be contempt, and any kind of incongruencies, like that negative head nod, or when someone says something but doesn't actually mean it. You start with those two steps, and you're already gonna increase your abilities.

• 1:04:55Lewis Howes?

  Your lie detection capabilities.

• 1:04:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:04:57Lewis Howes?

  I like it, I like it.

• 1:04:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But you use your gut. You use your intuition for lie detection.

• 1:05:01Lewis Howes?

  I think you feel it, you know. Like, you're reading everything, just kinda like you reading the guy, like sweating and smelling it, and you're like...

• 1:05:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:05:08Lewis Howes?

  Everything combined.

• 1:05:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly, so actually, that is more important, that's the most important thing.

• 1:05:12Lewis Howes?

  And eye contact as well, you know, if someone's like, not looking at you, and they're, you know...

• 1:05:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So liars, if you're lying face to face, not on video, so liars typically look you in the eye more, because they wanna see if you believe them.

• 1:05:24Lewis Howes?

  Uh, wanna see if you believe them? No way!

• 1:05:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:05:27Lewis Howes?

  Wouldn't you wanna, like, try to do that, so you could try to like, just act like you're telling the truth?

• 1:05:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So, either one, so really good liars actually make more eye contact.

• 1:05:38Lewis Howes?

  I wanna see if they're like, "I don't believe you, yeah, yeah."

• 1:05:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, so like, for example, like a really good liar is like, "I'm gonna deliver this to you, and hope you do..." And they're trying to see, "Does this, do they believe me? Are they making any weird facial expressions? Can I convince them?" So actually, looking away, shifty eyes, is just a sign of nervousness.

• 1:05:50Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And a truth teller can be nervous, too. So there's all these weird myths, also, um, do you wanna guess the, um, mode of communication that has the highest amount of lies? So your choices are, face to face, emails, IM, or chat, like text. Which do you think has the most amount of lies?

• 1:06:08Lewis Howes?

  Uh, text? Is that the least amount?

• 1:06:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Nope, it is, phone has the most amount of lies, and the reason for this is because...

• 1:06:17Lewis Howes?

  Oh, I think I know why.

• 1:06:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Tell me, yeah.

• 1:06:19Lewis Howes?

  Maybe.

• 1:06:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, I bet you, I bet you have it right.

• 1:06:21Lewis Howes?

  Well, because, well, I don't know, I was gonna say, anything that's not recorded.

• 1:06:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ah, yes, that's it, that's the answer.

• 1:06:26Lewis Howes?

  But text is like, you got the proof or something, you can go back to it.

• 1:06:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's exactly right, though, that's why, so phone has the most, because there's no paper trail.

• 1:06:33Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:06:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And, you don't have to lie to someone's face, right? Like, it's real easy to like, turn your back and be like, "I'm gonna..."

• 1:06:39Lewis Howes?

  No, yeah.

• 1:06:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, so, um, whereas email, text, and face to face, email, text has a paper trail, and face to face hasn't. So, there's all these really interesting things about lying, that we have misconceptions, or we don't think about them. So by the way, if you're doing a lot of business on the phone, if you're doing a lot of coaching on the phone, you really have to be careful, um, I have a lot of students who are life coaches, they work with a lot of students, and they do a lot of phone consulting. What the problem with that is if it has the most amount of lies, or we're talking about hidden emotions, if you're working as a coach, like you really have to spot those hidden emotions. You have to think about what are ways that we can either bring the video to this, like do video chat, or do in-person.

• 1:07:14Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or at least say, "Hey, I'm taking notes on this call. I'm gonna send you a summary after we hang up." That actually brings the amount of lies down to email level because you're telling them that I'm gonna commit this to black and white.

• 1:07:28Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:07:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm gonna commit this to paper.

• 1:07:30Lewis Howes?

  Yes, they feel like it's trustworthy.

• 1:07:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly, so whenever I do negotiations, I do a lot of phone negotiations when I'm doing corporate events, I always say, "My assistant's on the line," so third person, right, to hear.

• 1:07:39Lewis Howes?

  Who's taking notes.

• 1:07:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly. "My assistant's on the line, she's gonna be taking some notes for us, and don't worry, she'll send a full summary out afterwards. Please confirm that we got all the details right when you get it."

• 1:07:48Lewis Howes?

  Amazing.

• 1:07:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I have caught so many little lies. People don't mean, I don't think-

• 1:07:55Lewis Howes?

  Take the notes.

• 1:07:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, because my assistant will take notes, very good notes, and then we always send it back and we say, "Please review these notes, and please send us receipt that they all look good to you, that we got everything right."

• 1:08:05Lewis Howes?

  And what do people say?

• 1:08:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Well, the lies that we've caught is they've overestimated amount of people, overestimated a budget, they're not the actual decision-maker, and so when we reply back with that email, they have to say, "Mm, you know, I'm so sorry I mentioned 5,000, but I actually think it's gonna be a little bit closer to 3,000."

• 1:08:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:08:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, because they know that we'll have it in writing if anything is changed.

• 1:08:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, of course.

• 1:08:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So protect yourself in the business world by adding that in there. I think that's a really important strategy for just getting more honest interactions.

• 1:08:35Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, what about negotiations?

• 1:08:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hmm, yes, so for negotiations, the biggest thing here is actually vocal power. So going back to vocal, yes, because, because we sue doctors based on our perception of their skills, the same thing happens in negotiations. We value people on our perceptions of their skills.

• 1:08:54Lewis Howes?

  Perception of their skills.

• 1:08:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I know, our perception of their skills.

• 1:08:57Lewis Howes?

  And that comes through vocality.

• 1:08:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, because when you go to a negotiation, you're not thinking about vocal, you're thinking about, "What are my assets? What are my value points? What are all the things I'm gonna do?" Those are all important, but the very first impression, especially how you ask your number- Is the most important thing. So for example, if you are quoting a price, this is the hardest part of negotiation. Someone says, "How much do you charge? What do you cost?" And you say, question inflection, "I charge $10,000."

• 1:09:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's not good.

• 1:09:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You are begging them to negotiate with you. You're basically telling them, "I'm not sure of this number," and you shouldn't be either. So first is making sure that you are saying, not asking. So make sure that you're going the downward inflection. So the question inflection is when you go up at the end of your sentences. That's very, very-

• 1:09:41Lewis Howes?

  Saying, not asking.

• 1:09:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, versus going down at the end of your sentences. So when you have a number, you have a skill that you're gonna share, think about the verbal ahead of time. But with vocal, you want to deliver that in authoritative voice tone. So for example, like President Obama was very good at this.

• 1:09:55Lewis Howes?

  How would you say $10,000?

• 1:09:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ah, so here's the bad way first. I always like to do negative practice first. So bad way is, it'll be, "I'd love to work with you. I think we'd be a great partnership," and it will be $5,000. That's the bad way. The good way is, "I'd love to work with you. I think we'd be a great partner, and the cost will be $5,000." Right? So it's just adding at the end.

• 1:10:14Lewis Howes?

  Going down a little bit, yeah.

• 1:10:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's a finality, right? It's like saying, like, "This is my cost, and I know how much I'm worth now." If you don't know how much you're worth, we can have a different discussion about that.

• 1:10:24Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:10:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like, "I want you to own your worth. Your time is valuable. Your skills are valuable. You've spent years learning to do what you do." So you have to be able to price that well.

• 1:10:33Lewis Howes?

  Your worth is only worth what someone's willing to pay as well.

• 1:10:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  100%.

• 1:10:37Lewis Howes?

  So if you can't convince or enroll someone, or, you know, and then back it up with results, then, you know, you may get it, but you may not keep it. So you've gotta like do a lumber fist.

• 1:10:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And they don't have a perception of your value that way. So the first thing is the downward inflection. The second thing is volume. So when we're really nervous, we will lose volume. Remember how we are excited? I go up. Yeah. So salespeople, I do a lot of sales trainings. They'll do this thing where on the point that they're most nervous about, like their weak point, or something they're lying about, or a bad number. Ah, yeah, we'd love to work with you. I think it'll be really great and um, cost will be $5,000.

• 1:11:10Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:11:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Again, that's a social signal of, ah, this person doesn't really want to charge that. I'm gonna ask for less.

• 1:11:18Lewis Howes?

  I think it's when you're like calm and comfortable when you speak about it, that's gonna come across well, right?

• 1:11:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And practicing saying your hardest points. So go through that practice sheet, you know, the notes you take before a meeting, and practice saying to another human being, not your mirror.

• 1:11:35Lewis Howes?

  Here's my rate, yeah.

• 1:11:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Here is my rate. Or, um, there's other things you can be nervous about too in a negotiation, right? Like a timeline, or a skill level, or maybe, uh, other competitors who you think might be able to beat you. Make sure that you are practicing those comments with authoritative voice tone and solid audio.

• 1:11:52Lewis Howes?

  So people feel comfortable and confident in your work.

• 1:11:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And they catch it. And you infect that feeling.

• 1:11:57Lewis Howes?

  I love like, for me, it's so easy. I get a lot of email, inbound email requests for speaking. And I never want to jump on the phone with anyone because I'm just like, it's exhausting, you know, like having these conversations. So, people will say, "We'd love to book you," and I literally reply with like one sentence, something like, "I'm $35,000. Just let me know the dates, and I'll see if I'm free."

• 1:12:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:18Lewis Howes?

  That's about all I say.

• 1:12:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:12:20Lewis Howes?

  Sometimes they'll ask, like, "Tell me more about like what it is," but you know, it's usually just like, "Here it is. If I'm free, I'll let you know, but tell me the dates."

• 1:12:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And typically, someone who is emailing you should already know that you're gonna have a high value.

• 1:12:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:12:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And if you're, that's also part of your brand, right? Like, you're very direct. If people want to know about you, you have a podcast they can listen to, you have a book that they can read. And so, it's also about how do you position your numbers? So, yes, you can give a lot of information, right? And there's different kinds of proof. There's three different kinds of proof. There's social proof, so that would be, um, you know, we've had 15 events in the last six months, or whatever. There's, um, qualitative testimonial proof, so this is like, a CR person or a salesperson says, "Louis was the best speaker I ever had." And there's credibility proof, so media mentions, published book, bestselling author. So you have to think about, now Louis, you have those. You have all three of them because you have a book, that's on your website, you have social proof, you have podcasts. So you don't need to necessarily go and prove that.

• 1:13:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  However, if you don't have a website, or if you don't have those obvious buckets filled, you need to make sure that you are hitting all three of those proof buckets in your response. So if you don't have a book, or a podcast, or anything like that, your email back should be... So great to hear from you. First mention of social proof. I've done events for groups like yours in the past. They've done really well. I think we did three different groups last year.

• 1:13:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Social proof number one. Second, attach this email. I have a deck with an overview of topics as well as some testimonials from some of our previous groups that have really enjoyed us. And then here are my rates. Please let me know dates. And then at the bottom, any professional credibility mentions. So are you certified? Are you a doctor?

• 1:14:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Have you been on any media? Those can go be at the very bottom. That way, you're very subtly hitting those three proof buckets. And they're very important in negotiation.

• 1:14:09Lewis Howes?

  I love it. I love it. Is there anything that you want to share that we haven't shared?

• 1:14:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, my gosh. I would say that the last thing, and this is something that I tried to make a big point in the book. I don't want to hit people over the head with it, but I don't think I got it as well as I wanted, which is, I don't think you should ever pretend to be something you're not. Again, I don't believe in fake it till you make it. I think that you're better off spending your time, instead of trying to be the bubbly extrovert, is trying to find out what is your unique brand of charisma? Like, what is your flavor? I think that the more time you can spend on that before trying to emulate someone else or trying to dial up something that isn't natural to you is a much better place to be. And that's where happiness comes from. And that's what people mean when they say authentic. And so anything I've said today in this interview or anything that you've read,

• 1:14:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  try to figure out what's your unique take on that? Like, go prove, go make me prove my worth, right? Like, if I said something that sounded interesting to you, go make an experiment, right? Like, go up to 50 different people in the next 50 days.

• 1:15:11Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:15:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And see if you can try out a conversation starter, if that works for you. If you can find your unique flavor, if you can treat it like an experiment, you can never fail. Because experiments never fail.

• 1:15:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's good. I did an experiment when I moved to New York City as well. Because I was like, I want to meet some new people. I don't know anyone here.

• 1:15:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:29Lewis Howes?

  And I called it the Red Rose Project.

• 1:15:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What?

• 1:15:32Lewis Howes?

  Can you guess what it was?

• 1:15:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Did you give red roses to people? Yes.

• 1:15:36Lewis Howes?

  Every day I bought roses and I would give them out.

• 1:15:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:15:39Lewis Howes?

  This is when I was single. I gave them out to girls.

• 1:15:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Were you only trying to meet girls?

• 1:15:44Lewis Howes?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:15:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. You were about to say no.

• 1:15:46Lewis Howes?

  I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie.

• 1:15:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I feel like you were about to say.

• 1:15:48Lewis Howes?

  I'm not gonna lie.

• 1:15:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Don't lie. You can't lie.

• 1:15:49Lewis Howes?

  No, I was trying to meet guys too, but this specific project was for like dating girls.

• 1:15:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Got it.

• 1:15:53Lewis Howes?

  Take girls on a date. And I, uh, it only lasted like four days because I like met a few different people and.

• 1:16:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It worked.

• 1:16:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it worked, but a couple times it didn't work.

• 1:16:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What happened?

• 1:16:04Lewis Howes?

  I thought I was like so smooth.

• 1:16:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Did the girl like throw to like hit you with the rose?

• 1:16:07Lewis Howes?

  You know, I'm a nice guy, like, I'm disarming. You know, I wasn't like this weird like dude or whatever. I thought I was like a nice guy.

• 1:16:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Well, leading with the rose is pretty good. Yeah.

• 1:16:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, but I remember I went up to like one girl and she like ran from me and I was like, oh my God. I was like, okay, this did not work. But, but most people over there were like, oh, thank you. They were kind of taken back. They thought I was gonna ask. And I didn't ask for anything either.

• 1:16:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You just gave it to them?

• 1:16:30Lewis Howes?

  I just gave it to them. Yes.

• 1:16:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And let it go?

• 1:16:31Lewis Howes?

  And I would see what would happen.

• 1:16:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And what happened?

• 1:16:33Lewis Howes?

  I would just like smile and just say, I wanted to give you a rose today. And I would like walk away.

• 1:16:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And did you, and did you meet people? Did you meet girls?

• 1:16:37Lewis Howes?

  I did. I did. I met a few people. Uh, yeah. But it only lasted for like a few days and then I was like, oh.

• 1:16:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So here's a challenge to everyone listening. I like love that. Is there a project you can do for five days?

• 1:16:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so for, for my introverts listening, for my lovely introverts, maybe for you it's something small. Maybe it's as small as texting a good friend. A conversation starter that you heard today, right? Like just with your good friends.

• 1:17:01Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:17:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Deepening a relationship you already have. Maybe if you're a little more ambiverted, it's, um, asking a new colleague to lunch. Or asking a friend to lunch you haven't been to lunch with. And if for my extroverts, maybe it's the Lewis challenge, which is. Go buy roses or go buy lavender. I actually did this in the streets of New York with my.

• 1:17:18Lewis Howes?

  Lavender?

• 1:17:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, we did. We did little bouquets of lavender for everyone.

• 1:17:22Lewis Howes?

  That's cute.

• 1:17:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Um, and just told them to have a great day. Maybe it's something like that, like buying lavender, buying a rose.

• 1:17:26Lewis Howes?

  See what happens.

• 1:17:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And just see what happens. See what it's like when you get butterflies in your stomach and you have to approach someone. Take a five day challenge from today because I think that we can hear all this stuff as knowledge. We can keep it in the back of our head. It makes us feel good. But turning it into action is how we actually have behavior change.

• 1:17:42Lewis Howes?

  Yes. Make sure you guys go get the book. Captivate the Science of Succeeding with People. I'm telling you, it's a game changer. Highly recommended.

• 1:17:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You'll like Lewis's chapter, chapter five, reverse engineered Lewis's success.

• 1:17:53Lewis Howes?

  It's good. It's good. Um, final couple of questions.

• 1:17:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:17:59Lewis Howes?

  If this microphone was connected to 8 billion people right now, and they had headphones on, and you had 30 seconds to share a message that they would hear from you, every human in the world would hear this message in their language,

• 1:18:14Lewis Howes?

  and this was your message to the world, what would you say?

• 1:18:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, hold on. It doesn't start yet. It didn't start yet.

• 1:18:20Lewis Howes?

  It didn't start yet.

• 1:18:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I would say, there is one person in your life who you've been meaning to reach out to. There's probably one person in your life who you've been holding something back, or worried about, or you've been trying to fix something with them, and it's scary to fix things. Reach out to that person, and actually work on fixing it. Ask them the question you've been waiting to ask them. Bring up the thing that you've been too afraid to bring up, and try to mend that relationship. Because those broken things really weigh us down, and there's a lot of potential in fixing whatever is broken in that relationship. So go talk to that person.

• 1:19:03Lewis Howes?

  That's great. I like it. A lot of healing there.

• 1:19:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, healing, yeah.

• 1:19:07Lewis Howes?

  This is called the Three Truths. So if you could only share three truths, and your book would be gone, and all your videos you've ever created, no one would have access to anything else, except for these three truths.

• 1:19:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Lewis Howes?

  That's all they would have of you, for all of time. What would be your three truths, or three lessons, that you would share with the world?

• 1:19:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Vulnerability is sexy.

• 1:19:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's just three, right?

• 1:19:31Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:19:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Vulnerability is sexy.

• 1:19:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Own your weirdness.

• 1:19:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And your confidence is contagious. Hopefully, we've touched on some of those today.

• 1:19:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good, okay, good. Those are my thesis statements.

• 1:19:45Lewis Howes?

  It's been good. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, for continually using your awkwardness to help other people. To help yourself, to, you know...

• 1:19:58Lewis Howes?

  Not feel so awkward and feel so alone, because I know you felt that way for many years.

• 1:20:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Very alone, yes.

• 1:20:03Lewis Howes?

  And I'm sure sometimes you still feel that way.

• 1:20:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:05Lewis Howes?

  So I want to acknowledge you for constantly pushing your discomfort to stretch yourself, to help yourself, and to help so many people that listen to your work, that read the book, that watch the videos. So I want to acknowledge you for all of that.

• 1:20:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thank you. For my awkward people listening, you are not alone.

• 1:20:23Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. I don't know if I asked you this the last time, so final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

• 1:20:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think we did, but I actually like revisiting this question because I think that that definition can change.

• 1:20:35Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 1:20:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  On the brink of a book launch,

• 1:20:37Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:20:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I would say greatness is not the success of that book launch, or hitting a list, although all those things would be great. Actually, I think the real greatness was being able to put my truths into something and have it be so kindly accepted by others. That feels like the best feeling in the world. I think that's what greatness is.

• 1:20:59Lewis Howes?

  Love it. ScienceOfPeople.com, get the book Captivate. Vanessa, thank you so much.

• 1:21:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thank you.

• 1:21:06Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate it.

• 1:21:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thanks, everyone. Bye.

• 1:21:08Lewis Howes?

  I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media, or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple Podcast, and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels, @lewisHowes. I really love hearing the feedback from you, and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter

• 1:21:51Lewis Howes?

  and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now, it's time to go out there and do something great.