How to experience the world like a good dog (w/ Alexandra Horowitz)

Can our dogs feel guilt? Or have they successfully trained us with their puppy eyes to win a treat and extra kibble? Alexandra Horowitz is a researcher and head of the Dog Cognition Lab at Barnard College; she joins Chris to chat about how dogs make us laugh and ways to be more present in life. Featured guest Follow Alexandra Horowitz on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/alexandrahorowitz/?hl=en and at dogcognition.weebly.com/ https://dogcognition.weebly.com/ Connect with the team Follow Chris on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en and at chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/Buy Chris’ book, Humor Me https://t.ted.com/ZGuYfcL Watch How to Be a Better Human videos on YouTube at TEDAudioCollective https://www.youtube.com/TEDAudioCollectiveFollow TED on X https://x.com/TEDTalks, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ted, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TED, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/ted-conferences/, and TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@tedtoksFor the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Chris Duffy?

  You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. In today's episode, we're going to talk a lot about attention and about noticing. But despite the fact that this is a show for humans, on today's episode, we're going to be getting our advice from dogs. Today's guest, Dr. Alexandra Horowitz, is a world-renowned scientist who studies canine cognition. That is to say, her job is to figure out what dogs think and know and feel, and she is going to help us figure out how to pay attention to the world like a dog. To get us started, here's a clip from a video Alexandra made about her research with TED Ed, and this clip is narrated by Penpen Chen.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  If you can smell a spritz of perfume in a small room, a dog would have no trouble smelling it in an enclosed stadium and distinguishing its ingredients to boot. And everything in the street, every passing person or car, any contents of the neighbor's trash, each type of tree, and all the birds and insects in it, has a distinct odor profile telling your dog what it is, where it is, and which direction it's moving in. Besides being much more powerful than ours, a dog's sense of smell can pick up things that can't even be seen at all. A whole separate olfactory system, called the vomoral nasal organ, above the roof of the mouth, detects the hormones all animals, including humans, naturally release.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  It lets dogs identify potential mates or distinguish between friendly and hostile animals. It alerts them to our various emotional states, and it can even tell them when someone is pregnant or sick. Because olfaction is more primal than other senses, bypassing the thalamus to connect directly to the brain structures involving emotion and instinct, we might even say a dog's perception is more immediate and visceral than ours. But the most amazing thing about your dog's nose is that it can traverse time. The past appears in tracks left by passersby, and by the warmth of a recently parked car, or the residue of where you've been and what you've done recently. Landmarks like fire hydrants and trees are aromatic bulletin boards carrying messages

• 2:07Speaker 01

  of who's been by, what they've been eating, and how they're feeling. And the future is in the breeze, alerting them to something or someone approaching long before you see them. Where we see and hear something at a single moment, a dog smells an entire story from start to finish.

• 2:27Chris Duffy?

  We are going to have a lot more story for you, our human listeners, and for any time traveling dog companions you've got with you, right after this quick break. Don't go anywhere.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 3:27Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court, and that fight needs your support today. Donate at nrdc.org/human and your gift will be matched five times.

• 4:15Chris Duffy?

  Today on the podcast, we're talking to Alexandra Horowitz about what we can learn about being human, being present, and paying attention from dogs.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  Hi, I'm Alexandra Horowitz. I'm the head of the Dog Cognition Lab at Barnard College and an author.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  So Alexandra, you study dogs and a lot of people know you for your book Inside of a Dog. But I also am really interested because you wrote this book that I am passionate about and have recommended to so many people called On Looking, which is just about seeing the world in different ways. So can you give us the kind of two-sentence description of what On Looking is?

• 4:49Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. That's very nice of you to say. On Looking really grew out of my experience with dogs, actually, where I was starting to see the world differently through trying to see it through dogs' eyes or the dog's nose as it happens. And I decided that I would do a book of walks around my neighborhood with people who had different ways of seeing and try to see what else there was to see in that same sort of boring set of blocks that I was very used to walking. And it was a terrific exercise for me because it was all about perspective,

• 5:32Speaker 03

  which is what you have to keep in mind all the time as a scientist and especially when you're studying a non-human. But all the work I did with dogs, which was about trying to understand what dogs know and understand an experience of the world, really fed back into my own life completely. So my own relationship with my dog and trying to think about her and what she needed and wanted and thought about. But then also how I viewed other people and thought about their lives and what they knew and wanted and thought about. It really was like a perspective and empathy opening exercise. And it continues to be, right? Like, it's an ongoing... It's not something that I did that project and then it's done.

• 6:17Speaker 04

  I'm done looking. That's my lifetime of looking. We've fulfilled the quota.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  Now I know.

• 6:22Speaker 04

  Now it's on knowing. Now, this is something that I think anyone who has a pet, but especially a dog, can relate to, which is that before you explored your home or your neighborhood with your pet, you did not stop in the same places. You did not notice the same details. And all of a sudden, your dog being so fascinated by that particular corner, by that particular tree stump, by the fire hydrant on this stretch, it makes you pay attention to it in a different way.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly right. I mean, from the very first moment you leave your house, I live in the city, but wherever you live, and head out in your morning, you're going to work or you're exercising, typically, we just sort of stop looking. We're no longer looking. If there's something wildly different, we might notice it. We might notice it, right? And especially in New York, where you're kind of inured to the presence of things on the street, even people, we're constitutionally sort of not supposed to look, in a way. And so, yeah, we ignore everything around us. And even though I could tell you that I'd passed buildings, or vehicles, or people, or trees on my route, I know that more conceptually

• 7:36Speaker 03

  than perceptually, right? Like, I didn't experience them. So having to go a dog's pace allows you to see a lot of things. Every time you stop and stare up at the building while your dog's nose is staring down at the sidewalk, there's something there you haven't seen before. Is it ghost writing? Is it funny brickwork? Is it a bird who's perched there? Or whatever, you just notice things. And then as soon as you notice one thing, it leads to another thing to notice. And so it's contagious. And I really am thankful to my dogs for showing me that.

• 8:07Speaker 04

  I think that also one of the reasons why people who maybe aren't necessarily science people, or don't think of themselves as science people, why people are so drawn to your research and wanting to understand it, is because there's this deep curiosity people feel that is tied to that noticing with their dog of what is my dog actually experiencing? What is my dog thinking? When they get excited about that leaf, why? What is it that is making that happen? And you spent a lot of your career trying to answer those questions in a really rigorous way.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, those why questions, right? Because I also was a person who lived with a dog, and I also have those exact questions. And when I was a couple of years into studying dogs, which I didn't start doing because I was interested in dogs for the sake of dogs, actually, it was because they were sort of a good model for studying this idea of theory of mind in non-human others. During play.

• 9:02Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 9:03Speaker 03

  Boom, boring. But it turned out that got me studying dogs. And I saw that the things I learned from my own research and then from other people's research, as more people started doing this, I translated immediately to living how I thought about living with her and started to answer questions about, you know, what she was doing. And that got me then listening to other people's questions and also the ways they talk to dogs, right? And the things they make assumptions about with dogs. And so the very fact of how we live with dogs becomes its own kind of empirical subject. So yeah, it's been very fertile.

• 9:42Speaker 04

  For people who aren't aware of what it means, let's talk a little bit about that theory of mind. What is that? What is that?

• 9:47Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, theory of mind is this notion that a psychological notion of a ability we all develop as children to think about other people's perspectives, essentially, to know that, as I talked to Chris Duffy, you, Chris, know, want, think about things that are different than what I know, want, or think about. There might be similarities, but you have your own knowledge set. And it's important, children are sort of wildly egocentric in some sense, you know. So you have a very young child, right? You know, if you say they can't have a cookie that's in front of them on the table, they will, well, maybe not take that cookie, right? But at about three years old or so, if you

• 10:31Speaker 03

  leave the room, they have a great insight. You no longer know whether they're taking the cookie or not.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  You, because your knowledge state is different than their knowledge state. And this leads to deception. It also leads to like a lot of interesting higher cognitive abilities. And it's a really open question whether non-human animals have this ability to think about other. Animals minds in the way that we do.

• 10:57Speaker 04

  One of your studies, which I always find so fascinating, and I know is like, it prompts the most outraged debate, not because they're offended by the study, but because it challenges something that they believe themselves about their dogs. When I tell people about it is you did quite, in my opinion, very well-designed study to look at whether dogs display guilt, whether when you say, my dog is looking guilty because he knows that he wasn't supposed to eat that on the table and he jumped up and ate it, whether that is in fact a dog displaying guilt or not. Tell us about what you found in that study.

• 11:34Speaker 03

  I got very interested in these sort of anthropomorphisms that we make of dogs, where we attribute to them what we know are human qualities. And dogs have this guilty look, right? And it's become a kind of internet phenomenon, frankly, is dog shaming, you know, sort of like a sign around a dog's neck saying, I know I ate the couch pillow, and I'm so sorry, or something. And they have, yeah, sort of hangdog look, right? Which is maybe their ears back and their, or their head aside, or they, their tail is low and wagging ferociously. And people assume when the dog gives them that look, that they've done something wrong in quotes, and that they know they did something wrong. So they feel guilty about it. And I thought, well, I don't know that.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  And, you know, as a scientist, I can set up a really simple experiment to just test what prompts that look. Is it having done something wrong and there, and then maybe feeling guilty about it because they know it's wrong? Or is it something else? And it turned out it was something else. It was not whether they did something wrong. It was, in this case, it was eating a bit of food that was forbidden for them. It was whether the owner thought they had eaten the food. When the owners thought they had eaten the food and were kind of coming in to scold them, the dogs give the most guilty look.

• 12:56Speaker 04

  And that was even if they had not eaten the food. So they had nothing to feel guilty about. They would still do the look.

• 13:00Speaker 03

  Yes, that's right. But if they ate the food and the owner thought that they hadn't, they didn't give as much look at all, right? So it wasn't their sort of internal sense of Jewish guilt that felt like, that made them give this look. It was their response to us.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  And they're very good at reading our behavior even before we sort of know we're behaving, you know, for them to read. And they put on this basically appeasing, or you could call it submissive, look, which is designed to look pretty cute and hopefully to avoid the punishment that it looks like is coming. So it's not to say dogs can't feel guilt. It's, you know, as you rightly expressed it, it's more about whether that look is evidence of their feeling guilt, and it really isn't.

• 13:52Speaker 04

  This is one of the ways in which I think your research, for me, informs how I think about being a human, even aside from the whole dog part of it, which is that we can create a narrative. And even more than create the narrative, we can prompt that narrative into existence and believe that it is outside of us, when in fact, it is entirely coming from us. Right? Like, I'm like, oh, that dog feels so guilty. He's looking at me guilty. And in fact, it's like, the dog is reading me and thinking, I better look guilty because I'm getting the energy from Chris that says, you better look guilty. And I wouldn't even know that I'm making that happen.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  I think with the dogs, I've been looking at it more carefully because of just my interest in the dogs. But it's an interpersonal dynamic for sure, right? Imagine bringing just anger, resentment, or stress into any dynamic with somebody. It's not like you aren't wearing it all over yourself and like seeping it out with everything you say and how you present yourself and how you react to things. We are, right? Even when we think we're being subtle. And actually, we're pretty good at picking up on that as, as humans. It's interesting to me that we don't pick up as well on what the dogs are actually doing, right? We sort of put emotions and thoughts and feelings onto them without looking at them often.

• 15:09Speaker 04

  We're doing this series on the podcast in January. That's about how to have more laughter and humor in your life. And for me, one of the big pieces that I think of when I think of how to laugh more in your life is to start with noticing things. Because laughter, I think, is magical because it is so, it forces us to be present. You like, when you are laughing, especially when you're laughing with someone else, you are both locked into that moment. And I think that your book on looking, but also your research with dogs and the way you talk about it, it is a really interesting way of getting people to be present, to be in the moment. And I also think there is like, this is a place where there is a clear one to one,

• 15:50Speaker 04

  which is any dog owner can tell you that they have laughed really hard at something that their dog did, or at something that they experienced with their dog, because it's really easy to be present with an animal.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  I completely agree with that. And I also agree with this idea that like, the humor is in the details, right? There is a ton of pleasure for me in noticing, in noticing anything, just the delight of noticing it, which isn't inherently funny, right? But just, it's almost like, oh, like, who knew, right? How did, I'd never seen that. I'd never smelled that. Like, what, I just heard this. And that almost like, just the experience of being alive, if you're super engaged in it, is like delightful. Is that like, a really big belly laugh funny? Not always. But I think it does open up that possibility, too.

• 16:43Speaker 04

  What is the last time, or a time that you can remember, where a dog, or your dog, made you laugh?

• 16:49Speaker 03

  We live with two dogs, Tilda and Quiddity, and they're sort of differently sized, and they're just really different people. But sometimes they just get it together and have like, a great romp, rough and tumble play. And I just lose it. I mean, I just laugh and laugh. It's just funny to me to be kind of affiliated with their pleasure, right? Like, it's a laugh of, it's almost like contagious laughter, even though I can't always hear them laughing in play. The, their pleasure is my pleasure. So that, that happens regularly. But even just silly things they do, when one of them needs attention, and Tilda needs attention, and is not getting

• 17:32Speaker 03

  it from us, and she'll go and find one of Quiddity's favorite Pelican toys and bring it in proudly. And it's just fun to see her manipulating our attention and seeing, you know, figuring out how to work with these like, slow humans. That's funny to me.

• 17:50Speaker 04

  And is there a dog equivalent to laughter, or a dog analog to laughter?

• 17:55Speaker 03

  They do have a play pant, right? Which is this sort of breathy exhalation that they do in play. But you'd have to get like, really up in there with them to hear it in their play. It's a kind of Kind of sound like a chimpanzee might make in play. They were the sort of original non-human playpanters. And then there was a researcher who found that dogs playpant as well. So we call that a laughter because it's used in laughing contexts and playful contexts. And it's different than the pant that they use when they're hot or stressed. So yeah, I think they're laughing.

• 18:31Speaker 04

  It's also, you know, when you think about kids, human children, some of the first laughs that kids have are from these very primal types of jokes, right? Like, I'm gonna get you. I'm gonna get you. I'm chasing you or I'm tickling you, like a play attack that's actually not an attack. That is what gets kids laughing. And it seems like that same type of joke, if we could call it that, is what makes a dog laugh, too.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Isn't there also an evolutionary story that laughter and smiling are kind of like fear responses a little bit as well, right? So the chimpanzee, for instance, has a fear grin. Their big grin, if you see a chimp grinning, they're not like a super happy chimp. They're one who's worried about the situation and trying to put on like the guilty look, this appeasing gesture to sort of tone down what they see, the tension that they see happening.

• 19:24Speaker 04

  And certainly I've done that. I've walked into a party where I didn't know a lot of people and been like, oh, no, here's time for the big fear grin. Hey, oh, yeah, I remember you. What's I, of course, I know your name. We've met before.

• 19:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  Hi.

• 19:38Speaker 03

  Teeth, the whole thing, yeah. But there's a out of comfort zone area that I think dogs, chimps, and little people especially, but you know, we'll laugh nervously, right? So the laugh comes up in lots of other contexts as adults rather than just like true funniness.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  We're gonna take a quick break and then we will have more from Alexandra. So take a second to laugh nervously. And by the time you're done, we'll be right back with you.

• 20:14Chris Duffy?

  This episode is brought to you by Planet Visionaries, a podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. What connects a hidden laboratory in the Amazon, giant pandas in China's mountain forests, research relating to the ocean, and communities living alongside wildlife in India? That's what you'll hear on season six of Planet Visionaries. Stories from the explorers, scientists, and conservation leaders whose work addresses research, biodiversity, and conservation issues in specific locations. Planet Visionaries, hosted by environmental advocate and professional climber Alex Honnold, brings you real stories of discovery, determination, and research and initiatives relating to environmental change.

• 20:58Chris Duffy?

  In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts.

• 21:07Speaker 05

  This episode is sponsored by WeShare Health, an affordable alternative to traditional health insurance. While healthcare costs keep climbing every year, WeShare is doing things differently. It's a nonprofit built to put people first. No annual price hikes, no surprises. In fact, their membership prices haven't budged in five years. Members can pay up to 60% less than they would for traditional health insurance, saving up to $5,000 per year. Plus, members get real benefits: a nationwide PPO network with over 1 million physicians, unlimited telehealth, and access to more than 68,000 CVS Caremark pharmacies. WeShare goes beyond traditional health insurance, providing both extensive preventative and holistic care.

• 21:51Speaker 05

  Over 100,000 members have already made the switch. Call 1-888-WESHARE to get a free quote in minutes. That's 1-888-WESHARE. Or visit wesharehealth.org to learn more.

• 22:06Chris Duffy?

  This episode is brought to you by Whatnot. You know what makes shopping great? When it feels like an experience, like a conversation with someone who's just as excited about what you're buying as you are. That's what I like about Whatnot. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping app where you can hop into a live show, hang out and ask questions. And on the other side of the screen, sellers are building real thriving businesses. I recently joined a couple of live shows on their app and I found all sorts of great deals. I bought giant boxes of candy bars at a huge discount for Halloween and then I got a tool I needed for my home repairs. It's just such an interactive way to shop. It's really unlike any other way that I've bought things and it's a lot of fun. And not only can you shop, you can sell too. It doesn't matter if your business is big, small, or still just an idea.

• 22:47Chris Duffy?

  You go live, show off products in real time and turn what you love into real income. You're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers. Search Whatnot, W H A T N O T in the App Store. Download and you can start selling right away.

• 23:06Chris Duffy?

  And we are back. The vast majority of people who are listening to this, I would venture to say you are the only professional canine cognition researcher who is going to be involved in this podcast, whether as a listener or an interviewee. But I think there's many pieces of your research that can be applied to people who have dogs in their own life and even to people who do not have a pet at all. So I would love for you to be a little prescriptive here and say, how can we notice and be more present in our everyday lives?

• 23:43Speaker 03

  My book Unlooking is actually a good place to start with that. I walked with other people for a reason. I gave them a kind of blank slate of just walking together on an ordinary route, not like a special area of the city where there's a lot to see, but sort of someplace where there's nothing to see and just asked them to show me what they saw. And their showing me that allowed me to see more of...

• 24:11Speaker 03

  Of whatever it was, were they a geologist who could recognize the bluestone sitting next to the limestone, right? Or somebody who knew a lot about the history of lettering and signs and fonts, who got me looking at the 10 million kinds of letters in the city. So even though they're the ones that had the expertise, it was just like following their gaze that allowed me to start to notice more of whatever that category of things was, insect tracks, urban wildlife, you know, or geology or letters. And how people walk, this kind of thing. I walked with a doctor and a physical therapist, and that's never left me, even though I'm not an expert in diagnosing disease

• 24:55Speaker 03

  by watching people walk. I could start to see some of what they saw by walking with them. So just like grab anybody you know. It doesn't have to be an ex, like the world renowned expert in canine cognition. It could just be anybody who has just something they like to think about. Is it fashion? Is it color matching? Is it brickwork? Is it whatever it is, shadows? Like people's hats? And have a walk with them and ask them to show you what they see. And I guarantee they'll see things that you aren't seeing, and you'll start to notice more of them too, right? Like almost chasing to get ahead of them to notice that next hat that comes around the corner, or whatever it is.

• 25:38Speaker 04

  And obviously, you could do this with another person. But, you know, I love that this this framework you can actually even do alone. Like, I watched a really fun documentary on bird watching, and I am not a bird watcher. And I had never thought about that. And then I walk outside and instantly I notice, oh, there's the sound of a bird. Oh, there's something flying over there. I wonder what that is. Or, you know, I grew up in a tiny apartment, and so we never had to do like any sort of home repair or home maintenance. But now I live in a home. And so all of a sudden, I've become aware of like roofs and pipes as things that are possible problems that you have to pay attention to. But it actually is kind of fascinating to then walk around my neighborhood and go, huh, what kind of gutters do houses have?

• 26:21Speaker 04

  Like, oh, I never even thought of the idea that there were there's variation in the thing that catches water that comes off your roof. And you walk around and it just opens my Awareness to new possibilities.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. I love your gutter collection. And that's sort of what it is. It's almost like collecting observations, right? And maybe you pick a category of thing, or a color, or whatever. And having somebody else, or just watching something which introduces an idea, is, I think, a good way into it. Otherwise, it might be hard to like, ab initio, like, just say, oh, yeah, today I'm looking more. I think it's easier to just pick one thing, to look for that one thing. It just focuses your mind, and your perception, and your, all of your sensory modalities. And then you start noticing a lot of them. So you can sort of,

• 27:18Speaker 03

  it scaffolds you into being a bigger observer.

• 27:21Speaker 04

  So one thing that you taught me, and that I've never forgotten, is that among the frameworks that you can shift, right? We, as humans, most of us, tend to experience the world primarily through sight. That's our, like, primary sense for most of us. However, for dogs, they experience it primarily through scent, like their nose is the primary sense organ. Dogs have a very different sense of like, what time traveling would be. Because scents linger in a way that visual sights don't. So a dog is experiencing the world and saying, like, you were over there 10 minutes ago. I smelled that you were over there. And I smelled that the squirrel took this path.

• 28:05Speaker 04

  And their primary sense is giving them this also, like, ability to time travel into the past.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  I'm delighted that stayed with you, because I think it is a really transformative way to think about dogs, and smell, and ourselves, right? Because at some level, if we spent more time smelling, we would have some of that kind of superpower ourselves. Yeah, I think it changes so much about how I think about dogs, to realize that they're smelling, you know, that they're out there nose-first, because of everything about how smells work, you know? So it's not just that they're sort of traveling into the past, but they can almost smell a little into the future, because they sort of will be able to smell the thunderstorm that's coming, or the person that's coming around the corner, potentially, before you see them.

• 28:54Speaker 03

  And their sense of what is happening at this moment is sort of expanded in that way. So wow, if their sense of time is different than our sense of time, that really transforms that, you know, the dog who I think is like cooperatively sitting next to me on the couch and sort of doing the same thing that I'm doing. And then, you know, follow their nose anywhere and you're going to see something, you're going to notice something different. I did write a book about smell called Being a Dog, which I feel like your podcast stole, maybe. All right.

• 29:28Speaker 04

  Being a human, being a human, being a dog. Yep, that's our dog spinoff that's only available to dogs.

• 29:35Speaker 03

  One of the things I did for that book was follow my dog's nose.

• 29:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:38Speaker 03

  And so where they sniffed, I sniffed. And I have to say, if you do want, if you do want to laugh, follow your dog's nose to where they're sniffing on the street, other people will laugh at you. You're getting a laugh because you're down on the tree guard and like trying to smell whatever they're so super interested in. And I can't always smell what they're smelling, right? Or I don't know how to interpret it. Sometimes my nose isn't good enough to notice anything. And sometimes there's a smell and I'm like, that's a smell, but I don't know what it is. But boy, you realize that the whole like walk that we're taking together is transformed by thinking about them as smelling creatures, not just seeing creatures.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  So yeah, that was a big moment for me personally and in my work.

• 30:25Speaker 04

  Two ways that you've suggested that people could shift their own perspective of the world, but also understand their dog better are, one, to experiment with leading your own life nose first for a little bit of time, but also then to just get down at the level they are, to see that even the visual world is very different from the height of a dog than it is from our height.

• 30:45Speaker 03

  Same thing with children, frankly, right? And I In that book On Looking, I walked with a doctor Bennett Lorber, who told me that as, when he was a child, his dad used to take him around to museums and sort of oblige him to pay attention by coming into a room, having them look, and then asking them to like leave the room and draw what was in the room. So kind of high stakes. But at some point, they also realized that, he also realized that his sons weren't seeing what he was seeing when they looked up at paintings, because he got down to their level and he looked up at the painting that he was asking them to look at. And because of the way

• 31:26Speaker 03

  the lights are situated and the glass protecting the artwork, kids like sometimes can't see the art on the walls. It's just like a big blinding reflection to them. So suddenly you realize this thing that you're asking them to gaze at for hours for edification in the museum is just like a bright light for them. And they don't see Picasso at all, right? And it's so transformative just to be in this, just to be at the altitude of someone else and see like what the world looks like to them. So little tiny things, you know, lead to a pretty big effect.

• 32:03Speaker 04

  And I'm not trying to get up onto a big preachy soapbox here, but I will say that I think that one of the reasons why this is so important for ourselves, right, is to, it can break you out of the very egocentric thinking and it can help you see the world differently. But I think one of the reasons it's also so important as a society is that when we understand that other people and other animals don't experience the world exactly the same way we experience it, I think that's just a fundamental building block of empathy and of care for others.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes dogs are like a great ambassador for like thinking about other perspectives in that, in that respect. They're sort of unwitting ambassadors.

• 32:49Speaker 04

  Thing about dogs as ambassadors, one, one other experience that I wanted to ask you about is a lot of people don't know their neighbors very well. They don't know the people in their neighborhood. And then they start walking a dog and everybody knows the dog, right? Even if you are, if people don't know you, they're probably like, oh, that's Quiddity's owner.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:09Speaker 04

  Hey.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, right. It's a great, it's a great social lubricant to be out there with the dog. Because people will talk about the dog or they'll talk to the dog. Right? And then suddenly you're at the end of the leash and they're sort of by fiat, they're also talking to you and, or because you're talking for the dog. And, and then you suddenly have made a social connection, which feels really nice. Absolutely. They're facilitators in that way. God, they're great dogs. Aren't they great? They're great.

• 33:36Speaker 04

  It's funny because I have never owned a dog and I don't own a dog currently. Although I actually wonder, is that as one of the leading dog experts in the world, how do you feel about the phrase owned a dog? Is that, do you live with a dog or do you own a dog?

• 33:47Speaker 03

  It describes the legal relationship we have with dogs.

• 33:50Speaker 04

  Okay, okay.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I consider the, the dogs I live with, who I say I live with, I guess, I, I consider me to be their person, right? They're sort of my dogs and I'm their person. So I don't really, I use owner for convenience.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 34:06Speaker 03

  Some people say guardian or parents and all of the same, wrong. I'm just the person in the family and they're the dog in the family.

• 34:13Speaker 04

  There's also the very famous Seinfeld joke, of course, about dogs, which is, you know, that if aliens came down to earth and they saw two species and one species was walking along behind the other one and picking up its poop and then giving them food and treats. Which species would you think was in charge on earth? It wouldn't be the humans.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, carrying their poop around in a little bag like is kind of an amazing, humbling part of living with dogs in a city. But, you know, on the other hand, I very much think about, now that I'm really noticing everything about my dog's life, how captive they are to us. Right? Like we control when they can go outside to poop. How amazing if somebody was like, you know what, Chris? Nope. You're going to stay in that room for. Indefinitely long.

• 35:02Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 35:03Speaker 03

  And then you'll be able to go out somewhere in the street. Well, we'll, we'll let you defecate.

• 35:09Speaker 04

  You are almost, almost two, almost exactly describing my experience as an elementary school teacher, which is you will stay in this room and we will dictate when you can poop and it is not when you need to. It is at the time that you can receive coverage.

• 35:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I mean, I guess there's a lot in common there.

• 35:25Speaker 04

  How do our emotions affect the long-term behavior of our dogs? For example, like if someone has anxiety, do those emotions transfer to the dogs in a way that might make the dog more anxious?

• 35:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, there is a little research on this that I could speak to where it, it looks like in some cases, this was a study of people who were doing agility training with their dogs. So it's like a kind of sport that people and dogs do together where the dog, maybe you've seen agility.

• 35:56Speaker 04

  A very fun to watch.

• 35:58Speaker 03

  Performance, super fun to watch. The, my, my favorite part though was actually before the dogs get out there, when the people practice going around the set of obstacles pretending to like guide the ghost dogs into the, through the circuit. In that relationship, even though the dog isn't being handled by the person, like they're not even on a leash or anything, the person, they're following the person to sort of know how to go through the route of obstacles and ramps and tunnels and so forth. And there was good evidence in this study that when, with at least male handlers, when they got really stressed, their dogs also got really stressed. So that local emotional state was sort of contagious for the dogs.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  And then there's since been a lot of research about, for instance, dogs' distinction of the smell of stress and happiness in people. So they, we like are giving out smell all the time. That's another thing that thinking about smell has brought to me is realizing like, like a worse smell sources in an interesting way, like, and I like that we should come to terms with a little bit as human beings. And dogs are noticing our emotional changes via our smell. So stress has a smell, apparently like happiness has a smell. I don't know if it's a smell of happiness or some sort of affiliated smell, but dogs can distinguish them. So, and it also looks like there might be some contagion of those emotions.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  So if you come at them. With a happy smell, they're more likely to respond with happiness. If you come at them with a stress or anxiety smell, they're more likely to be stressed or anxious themselves.

• 37:39Speaker 04

  And is that why, like, for someone like me, I am not super comfortable around dogs often. I mean, especially big dogs. Little dogs, I'm fine with. But often if I'm meeting a big dog for the first time, I am stressed. I'm not sure how it's gonna go. And I do find that often tends to make it not go super well, like the dog is also nervous.

• 38:00Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, you smell stressed, you know? And it's also body, you know, what you're doing behaviorally. So if you're approaching a dog you're uncertain about, you look completely different than someone who's excited to see a new dog, right? Like, think about just how you stand, how you move. And you might not be noticing it, but like, I'd love to see that videotape, right? And we'd be able to characterize, like, here's how you, like, react stiffly or move away or... And then you, the cortisol that you're experiencing, the sort of stress reaction, all of that is telling the dog, like, nah, like, we've got a target there. That doesn't mean the dog's gonna react to that by attacking you, but well, but it just means you're visible in those ways.

• 38:45Speaker 03

  Your stress or anxiety is visible to the dog.

• 38:49Speaker 04

  But then with dogs that are more playful, it takes me a little while to understand and to read the play signals to see, like, that's a safe play signal versus a dangerous play signal.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I, since I started studying dogs via play, that was what I was looking at specifically is they... And they do have a bunch of play signals and you have to learn them, right? There's no, and dogs have to learn them. They don't come out, you know, as puppies, just play bowing in front of other dogs right away. They learn them. And when they do start playing without doing a play signal and saying, like, I'm gonna play, then it sort of reads like a, an attack. And the dogs will react to them as though they've just been attacked instead of in play. And that's like our play, you know, if you... If I wanted to play with my son, well, he's 16, so we don't do as much like

• 39:41Speaker 03

  rough and tumble play anymore. But if I wanted to, I like, I could tackle him, but I have to like tell him, like, we're playing now first. Otherwise, I just tackled him, right?

• 39:51Chris Duffy?

  You also did tell me before we spoke that your son is quite a successful and strong powerlifter. So if you tackled him out of nowhere, he might also like throw you through the ceiling.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  I'm in big trouble.

• 40:02Chris Duffy?

  There's gonna be a hole in the roof where you were launched into the sky.

• 40:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's like, not a joke, actually, because he, uh, he did come up and give me a big hug the other day and like bruised my wrist.

• 40:13Chris Duffy?

  Oh, yeah. That's a strong, that's a strong boy.

• 40:18Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by ADT. It's that time of year again when life gets busy. Back to school, back to work, back to routine. When everyone is out the door and on the go, it's comforting to know your home is taken care of while you're away. ADT makes that part easy. Enjoying the little moments with friends and family is easier when you have one less thing on your mind. With their customizable systems that can be professionally installed, ADT has your home security covered. The ADT Plus app lets you access your whole system from your phone. You can arm, disarm, and even check live camera feeds. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP. When every second counts, count on ADT.

• 41:02Speaker 06

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 41:32Speaker 07

  Being a serious business owner takes hard work, patience, and a drive to keep moving forward. So it's important to find a serious business card that goes the extra mile. With the Venture X Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with big purchasing power, you can spend more and earn more. This is your sign to take your business to the next level. The Capital One Venture X Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 42:02Speaker 04

  Well, you know, something that I'm curious about is in your home, you have, you know, you have a 16-year-old son, you have a husband, you have two dogs, you have a household full of people, and then you also have this research lab where you're studying these things in a more controlled setting. How do you take the lessons that you learn in the lab and apply them in your own life? How do you apply those lessons in your home?

• 42:26Speaker 03

  Sometimes it's what's happening at home that gives me ideas for my lab.

• 42:30Speaker 04

  Oh, tell me about that.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  Right, so it actually feeds back pretty nicely. So if I'm wondering, sometimes I'll see a behavior that someone's doing and think, I don't know the purpose of that, just like all those owner questions, like, why do they, why are they shaking off? What does that mean? You know, you shake off if you're wet, but also dogs who have this like brilliant ability to like move their skin independently of their like frame, right? So they can like do those crazy shakes. Why do they do that? So I took this to the lab, we studied shaking behavior and like why it, where it appeared in normal social interactions. And we found that it appeared like when dogs were changing what they were doing. So if they're going from play to like walking, or going from walking to like chasing,

• 43:15Speaker 03

  or something like that, when they were at a switch, or getting up from the being, sitting down and going over to like sniff that other dog, they would shake as they were changing. It's just, allows me to see a little bit more. It's not like I change my behavior with them that much, but allows me like even further entree into their like umfelds, right? Their worldview. But with dogs, a lot of behavior is viewed as misbehavior. So you want your dog to like be calm when guests come over, but they're not calm. They're like jumping up on the guests and licking and barking and people get very frustrated all the time because they're misbehaving.

• 43:59Speaker 03

  And you think, okay, but what's happening for the dog there, right? Like there's someone new coming in the house, exciting. So what do you do when you're excited? You tell everyone, right? You're barking. Also, we smell amazing, especially from our mouth. Like whatever we have eaten is like coming out all the time. So they're like, let me find out who that is and what they ate. And our mouths are way up here and they're way down here. So that's how they get up there. So then you think all those behaviors make a lot of sense. If you just get into their perspective, it's not misbehavior. It's like good dog behavior. And if I don't want my dog to do that, I have to create a whole context that will allow them to be themselves and not like be rude.

• 44:43Speaker 03

  And same for my, you know, son. I have to, I could look at his behavior as rude or whatever it is, whatever teenage behavior could be thought of as being. Or I can try to get into his head and say, well, what is it like to be this person who's like body is literally expanding overnight. Right? And who's in this like really fraught and interesting social life with other teenagers? And how would I react when my parents say this? Right? So that perspective it taking is, is always a good exercise at home.

• 45:16Speaker 04

  I love it. What is a little experiment that anyone who is listening and has a dog or has access to a friend's dog, what should they run to just see their dog or the world a little bit differently? What's a little experiment that they should run on their own?

• 45:31Speaker 03

  Oh, nice. Well, something that we were sort of thinking about recently in the lab, just to like see how well they can smell things. You could just create a little scent scavenger hunt or a scent like trail. Take a little bit of kibble or like one treat and like run a trail, you know, like down the, down your hallway and hide a treat and see if your dog, if you point out where the trail starts with your friend, get them interested in smelling, see if they can follow that invisible trail of like the tiniest micrograms of treat that you, you can't smell anymore to where the treat is hidden.

• 46:12Speaker 03

  And I bet that you start rethinking about how all the smells of you through the space you share with your dog and all the things you bring into the space that have smells might be meaningful for them.

• 46:27Speaker 04

  That's so fun. I love that. And let us know how that went. I'm very curious to hear if you want to send in a video or just a, send an email and let us know what happened. I would love to hear the anecdotes about how your dog's scent scavenger hunt went. Alexandra, thank you so much for being on the show. It's such a pleasure to talk to you and I just am such a fan.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  It is always a pleasure, Chris. I'm just delighted. Thanks for having me.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  Thanks for being here.

• 46:51Chris Duffy?

  That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to Alexandra Horowitz. She is the author of, among other books, Inside of a Dog, On Looking, and The Year of the Puppy. Alexandra runs the Dog Cognition Lab at Barnard. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and this episode is part of a month-long series on How to Laugh More that is inspired by my new nonfiction book, Humor Me, which just came out and you can order now. You can find more about me and about Humor Me, my book, at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team of very good doggos. On the TED side, we've got the house-trained and well-behaved Daniela Balarezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansika Summanivong, Antonia Lei, and Joseph DeBryan.

• 47:35Chris Duffy?

  This episode was fact-checked by Matthias Salas, who gets a treat every time an episode doesn't contain factual errors. On the PRX side, we've got leaders of the pack and Best in Show winners Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And thanks to you for listening. You are a good listener. Yes, you are. You're such a good listener. Please share this episode with anyone you think would like it, anyone who loves a dog, acts like a dog, or you just want to sniff the world with. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care and thanks for listening.

• 48:17Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at nrdc.org/human and your gift will be matched five times.

• 49:03Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by PayPal. This holiday season, don't miss your chance to turn "just looking" into "just bought it." Make it easy for your customers to say yes on the spot. PayPal Checkout is a trusted conversion engine fueled by 400 million active PayPal and Venmo accounts. And when you add Pay Later, you can turn holiday shoppers into regulars. 96% of Pay Later shoppers are repeat users, so if you give them Pay Later flexibility now, it could help earn their loyalty all year long. PayPal is built for all business. Get started at paypal.com/business. PayPal data eight markets, March 2025 to February 2026. Repeat users defined as more than one Pay Later purchase in the past year.

• 49:50Speaker 07

  With the Spark Cash Plus Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase, and you get big purchasing power, so your business can spend more and earn more. Steven, Brandon, and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2% cash back to help build the company's retail presence. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at capitalone.com/sparkcashplus. Terms apply. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs.

• 50:32Speaker 07

  Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.