Will Amazon Be Kinder After Jeff Bezos? A Conversation With Recode's Jason Del Rey

Jeff Bezos is headed for the door at Amazon, and because 2021 is the craziest news year on record, we mostly haven’t stopped to consider this seismic story and what it means for the business world. Joining us to discuss what Amazon looks like after Bezos is Jason Del Rey, a senior correspondent at Recode and author of a forthcoming book on Amazon’s battle with Walmart. Here's Jason's story on what to expect from incoming CEO Andy Jassy: https://www.vox.com/recode/22264330/amazon-ceo-andy-jassy-jeff-bezos-aws Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 0:43Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 1:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hey Jason, good to see you again. Hey Alex. Thank you for doing this on such short notice. Of course. Appreciate it. I'm going to read a quick ad and then we'll get into it. The Big Technology Podcast is sponsored by MediaOcean. Looking for a job in big tech? You might want to take a look at MediaOcean. They were just named by Ad Age as the number one place to work in advertising technology. Go to mediaocean.com/bigtech to learn more about the company and check out their careers hub. MediaOcean is building the mission-critical platform for omnichannel advertising. If that sounds cool, or if you just want to find out what those buzzwords mean, hit up mediaocean.com/bigtech and browse their job listings. And big thanks to MediaOcean for supporting the Big Technology Podcast. All right, let's do this.

• 1:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hello and welcome to the Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed nuanced conversations of the tech world and beyond. Well, Jeff Bezos is headed for the door at Amazon and because it's 2021, the craziest news year on record, we mostly haven't stopped to consider this seismic story and what it means for the business world. Joining us to discuss it is Jason Del Rey, a senior correspondent at Recode and author of a forthcoming book on Amazon's battle with Walmart. He's also the host or the original host of Recode's Land of the Giants podcast, which I will be co-hosting this year and a little bit more on that in a bit. But for now, Jason, welcome to the show.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Hey, Alex. What's going on?

• 2:39Alex Kantrowitz?

  So are you deep in book writing life or are you still reporting day to day normally?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  I'm doing both right now. I'm doing reporting and writing on nights and Sundays and eventually we'll take some time to exclusively focus on the book. But right now I'm trying to do both and be a decent or above average father and husband. So I'm not succeeding at all of them at the same time.

• 3:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, each one of those is its own situation, but I do appreciate you making the time. So, you know, we've known each other for a long time. We were, I followed you at Ad Age. We both reported on ad tech there. I actually remember I was thinking about taking the job. I remember the exact place I was standing when I called you and said, Jason, what do you think about this advertising age place? You have a good experience there. And you're like, the only place I would ever leave for was All Things D. You remain there and now it's Recode.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's amazing how I said that lie with a straight face. No, I was kidding. It was for me, it was the place to be for me. Yep. Absolutely.

• 3:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  And so, so and then you moved from covering ad tech to commerce, e-commerce, a lot of Amazon stuff. And I moved from covering ad tech to the tech giants and also was obsessed with Amazon and ended up writing a book, Always Day One, title is like the catchphrase of Bezos. So my first question for you, my first real question for you is, what's, what is? The deal with us, ad tech guys that are just drawn to be obsessed with Amazon. What do you think is behind it?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  So just to back up for one sec, I really did want to work at All Things D with and for, you know, Kara Swisher, Peter Kafka and Walt Mossberg. And the only job available was the commerce gig. Because Peter, very, I covered digital media as well as ad tech. And Peter Kafka was covering that well for All Things D.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  But I've grown to become probably like an e-commerce and retail nerd. Just because so much of our life, for better or worse, revolves around

• 4:59Speaker 01

  buying stuff. I mean, that sounds, and Amazon obviously is, Amazon is obvious, and Amazon is obviously expanding in so many ways that they affect us in other ways. And so I feel like I sort of lucked into covering that company at a time in which, you know, it was pre, pre Alexa when I first started covering the company. Pre AWS being something that the world knew about because its financial results were public, pre Bezos transformation in a lot of ways.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  And they've only become more-

• 5:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  You mean before he was jacked?

• 5:37Speaker 01

  He may have been jacked, but he was not showing it off yet. And so, anyway, I am fascinated by the company and by the space. But it was, I don't think there was any connection between ad tech and commerce, for me at least.

• 5:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, it's interesting to hear about your journey. So we're here to talk a little bit about what Amazon, what the commerce world's going to look like after Jeff Bezos is resigning. How surprised were you when you saw the news?

• 6:08Speaker 01

  When I, when I took a breath and, and um, and got inside from shoveling my car out outside, which is where I was when the news broke, not great timing. Um, it was not, it was not altogether surprising. I mean, who he chose was definitely not surprising after his other sort of number two, Jeff Wilkie had announced his retirement.

• 6:30Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right, and he chose Andy Jassy.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Last year, yes.

• 6:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  A W S.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I, I think frankly, looking, I think it might have happened sooner if not for the pandemic. Like, I think, I think many people both inside and outside of Amazon have made the point that this sort of almost formalizes the way Bezos was um, interacting with the company for a couple of years now, which is working on sort of his, you know, pet projects, early big swings, um, but trying to make time for his other, you know, rocket building and other, you know, and increasingly philanthropic initiatives. Um, so uh, anytime it was gonna happen, it was gonna feel like a big moment, and it is, but um, when I could digest it for a second, it was not, it was not altogether surprising.

• 7:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  Why do you think now is the moment that he's leaving?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Uh, there are a couple of theories. One is, you know, he will, maybe he wanted, well, there's three theories, and I think they could have all played a role. One is, you know, he was planning to leave before the pandemic and then felt like he couldn't with everything facing the company and society, but his company. And so now, hopefully feeling like we're on the back end of the pandemic and with vaccines rolling out, that um, it, it would be a fair time to pass the baton. I think for sure, like, does he wanna be being, you know, does he wanna be testifying in front of different congressional committees more, or, you know, have to face that? I don't know anyone that wants to do that. Maybe he'll still have to

• 8:05Speaker 01

  as the founder and executive chairman, but I, I don't think he wants to spend his time being briefed on that stuff. And I think there's gonna be more, more of that to come. Um. And then some people suggested that the exact timing when he'll transfer, you know, will be,

• 8:21Speaker 01

  uh, you know, Amazon will be sort of, from a financial perspective, uh, they will be sort of lapping their amazing growth numbers from the pandemic. And so he'll stick around a couple more quarters, maybe as, um, those growth numbers don't look quite as good as we lap those numbers. And so he'll face the, you know, this is a generous take, but that, you know, he'll take the brunt of, you know, if the growth slows down before passing it off to Jassy. But, um, I think it's a combination of, he has other interests he's been spending time on, the scrutiny. I would imagine he does not want to be the face of it for much longer.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  And then, uh, and, and then trusting, I think really trusting that Andy Jassy is the person that can make sure this company stays on track.

• 9:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I bet all those elements play a role. And personally, uh, I've been watching like every Bezos presentation over the past couple of years. And the thing that surprised me the most was that he kept saying, the most important thing I'm doing is trying to get to space with Blue Origin.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  And I have to think that, you know, Bezos is a type of guy who tries to, looks at the output that he's getting from the input of effort.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  And he was trying to maximize the output. And I think that he's probably at this point say, my effort will be better spent on the Blue Origin stuff. And of course he'll look at the philanthropy in the Washington Post. But it does seem like it's a battle between Bezos and Elon Musk to get to space.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Is that your next book? Is that your next book?

• 9:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  The Billionaire Space Race. I think it'll be a pretty good book, actually. Someone's gonna get it. Someone's gonna write that.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Well, I, I'm, I'm choosing you if you want it, so.

• 10:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  The publishers are listening out there. Uh, so, I mean, does that, does this change your book at all? You're gonna write about Amazon and Walmart?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, you know.

• 10:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Cause Wilkie's also, Wilkie, Jeff Wilkie was the head of Worldwide, uh, Consumer and he's out too. So the two big characters inside Amazon, you'd think are, are now leaving.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, um.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  I'm trying not to give away story ideas, but uh I I think there is I think there is something to be said for Bezos stepping aside, Wilkie. Um, a guy named Steve Kessel, who uh had headed the Kindle project back in the day, but then more recently, all the physical store projects like Amazon Go. Who announced his retirement, uh Jeff Blackburn, longtime exec who's been on, yeah, I I um it is a new era um and so. Obviously I'll be looking for um changes as as far as my book. I think unlike Brad Stone's book, which is an Amazon centric book.

• 11:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right, Bezos is on the cover.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Um, uh, uh, I think Brad has some work to do between now and his book publishing in May.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  I I my my book's not coming out for a bit after that, and so um I'm not super concerned um. Uh, maybe, maybe I want Jassy to play a bigger role in this book now than I anticipated, but um. But uh, that is not high on my stress list and I have a lot of things on my my stress list.

• 11:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, yeah. So when I was writing Always Day One, I had five CEOs uh that I was writing about.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Bezos, Zuckerberg, Sundar Pichai, Satya, Nadella and Tim Cook. And I was like, man, I just hope none of them step down. And I made it like 10 months before Bezos went, which which is nice. Uh, so.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  You had some Wilkie, you had some Jeff Wilkie in there, too.

• 11:56Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, Wilkie was in and then Wilkie stepped. I thought Wilkie was gonna be the next person in line, but obviously. Wilkie must have had a premonition or at least some knowledge that it wasn't gonna be him and that's when he decided to leave. Uh, Jassy obviously stayed, took it over. Um, so. Uh, I just kind of am curious to hear your perspective on how Amazon as a company changes. And I made this point in my newsletter recently, but um the thing that Amazon and I you read it, you wrote a great story about. Uh, what's gonna happen to Amazon under Jassy. The thing about. Amazon under Bezos is that it had this retail DNA and the e-commerce and the retail business is notoriously cutthroat and every penny matters and you have to be extremely

• 12:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  frugal to beat competitors and in fact frugality is one of Amazon's principles and

• 12:44Speaker 01

  And Walmart first.

• 12:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  And Walmart, yeah, okay, we'll talk about that. So it and this has it's been like, I think, one of the reasons why Amazon's been so cutthroat, doesn't want to pay any taxes, that doesn't want to pay its employees very much, although it's reformed its way in recent years with some encouragement from Bernie Sanders. And, and yeah, and won't, you know, it's one of those companies doesn't serve employees lunch, you know, and then now Jassy's gonna come and, and he's coming from not the retail, but the money printing side of the business.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  One that doesn't naturally have those constraints. Does that background change the way Amazon looks moving forward? Does it make Amazon a kinder culture?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  I don't know. I'll, I have, I have two sides of the, I can answer it both ways and it's, I think it's a complex answer. One side is the guy now running Amazon's retail business, and yes, it's a guy, not surprisingly at Amazon, the guy running the retail business now is, is Dave Clark, who has run the warehouse network operations for years in sort of a cutthroat fashion, great Bloomberg profile of him, said his nickname used to be the sniper because he would, in his early days, hide out in an Amazon warehouse to watch workers and maybe fire people on the spot if they weren't doing the right thing. So

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Clark is running that retail business and he's, he's a tough guy. I will, you know, the Jassy thing I'm interested about, coming from AWS and helping to invent that, is that you, I've talked to Amazon exec, former execs who won't say this publicly, but privately will tell me, Jason, when's the last time Amazon has really had a breakthrough invention? Like, you know, and they will point out Alexa, AWS, you know,

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Kindle and like the initial idea for Amazon, basically. And uh, and what, and just say like, um, when, where is that, when is that new biz, like new breakthrough invention lead to a new business? And you could look at things like hands-free technology in stores and um, anyway, so my big thing is, will Jassy lead to, you know, will his taking over in some way directly lead to the next great invention? And you know, does Amazon even need that? I don't, you know, with all the room to grow in retail, in logistics, in vid, media, in Alexa, the things they already do well, it doesn't really feel like that.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  But there's an argument, some former execs would say privately that they're, they worried that the company's already, you know, um, uh, touching day two, which is this idea of like, when you stop becoming that invented inventive scrappy, um, no hold, no holds barred startup. I don't know if I answered your question, but those are some of the, yeah, yeah.

• 15:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, I, I want to know whether it's gonna, yeah, well, first of all, I see there's a worry that it's gonna be defend your flagship company, maybe like a Microsoft in the Windows days versus an Amazon invent, invent, invent, and don't give a damn about what you've built so far, which has been the mantra under Bezos. But yeah, the thing is that I wonder about, you know, whether it becomes a nicer company. Um, one of our former guests, Tim Bray, uh, who left Amazon at a protest, uh, that they fired some whistleblowers, spoke with you for your story about Andy Jassy, and I was surprised at how positively he reacted. He said, AWS was by a wide margin, the best managed place I've worked, including places I was the CEO.

• 16:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  Uh, and, and that was surprising to me. And I want to know whether that's surprising to you. And he had also in his memo that when he left, said there's a vein of toxicity running through Amazon culture. Do you think what Tim Bray is saying and that is that vein of toxicity was Jeff Bezos?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Well, let me first say, I asked him if he would talk to me about Andy Jassy and did not have any idea what he was going to say. And so, yes, I was surprised just because of the way he went out.

• 17:05Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, he lit the place on fire when he was going.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, you know, I asked him of like, how do we make, how do I, how do I, you know, uh, make sense of you going out the way you did? And then this praise of Jassy and he basically said, he doesn't think Jassy has had anything to do with the whistleblower firings that he was really upset about. The truth is Andy Jassy's on the S-team at Amazon, you know, um, and so I, I don't know that he oversaw those firings. I don't think he did, but, um, I wouldn't be surprised if there was, if there was.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Correct. Sorry. Yeah. Um, my editor would tell me the same thing. Don't assume, don't assume people know. Um, uh, so, so I was surprised. I think, I think Bray was talking more about, you know, the DNA that comes from Bezos. I think that is true. I've had people describe Jassy to me as, while there are a lot of similarities in management style and philosophy, that, um, uh, more human, which is a weird thing, a weird way to describe a person, but more human than Jeff Bezos. Um, the word empathetic has been used as well. Um, I think he's a hard-charging executive for sure, but I think,

• 18:23Speaker 01

  I think some people internally have a hope that the place will become, uh, you may have described it as a, a nicer place. How that manifests itself externally, I, I, I have no idea, but I'm going to be looking for any sort of signs of, of change. Um, I'll stop there, but those are some of my thoughts on that topic.

• 18:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, having studied Amazon, I think it's a solid company. I think the biggest weakness that the company has is that it does have a lack of empathy. And you can see it manifest in terms of the way that it will work its workers sometime, or even you referenced this in your story, there was concern about conditions around workers in the beginning of COVID. And instead of like taking those seriously, they organized a smear campaign against one of their employees and said internally that he wasn't very smart and inarticulate. And so how do you think the company, let's say the company does get more empathetic. I mean, I know we're in speculation territory now, but how do you think that might change it? And can it make it, I mean, we know they're going to be halt.

• 19:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, I'll ask the next question about the FTC after this, but how will a more empathetic Amazon be changed from, from what it is today? Does it make it stronger?

• 19:42Speaker 01

  The, the answer I want to give is that yes, it would make it stronger. But then I look at all the coverage, all the, you know, employee activism. And many of it negative, right? And shining a negative light on the company. And yet, record sales and profits through the pandemic. And I just, you know, and people will say it's not on consumers to vote with their wallets. You know, they're just trying to, you're just trying to get by day to day. But I, I, I don't know, I don't know that being a more empathetic will make it a more, a more popular company. I just, um, I think people, I think the service is just so accept, has historically been so exceptional

• 20:27Speaker 01

  and far and away the best in retail that, um,

• 20:32Speaker 01

  people, people just, you know, people just make decisions that are best for them when it comes to, you know, buying stuff. Um, I think, I think recruitment wise, I think, um, yeah, no one wants to be at the center of potential antitrust enforcement. I, I think all of that could help.

• 20:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, where do you, talk on that because we only have a couple of minutes. Yeah, talk on the antitrust stuff. Is that a real threat to Amazon because they're coming after Google and Facebook?

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think I've talked to, I've talked to people about, does the government have the bandwidth to take on more than two giants?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  I think separating the cases to DOJ FTC and then states, maybe so. Um, I think there's still a real risk Amazon's facing. Um, I, I, I've been surprised at how combative they've been with critics over the last few years from both a communications and public policy side. I just think, um, they had a lot of friends on Capitol Hill, um, a few years ago. And now they go in there and every conversation doesn't start with, oh, I'm an Amazon Prime customer. It starts with in a sort of interrogation. Um, and that's what, you know, that's sort of what I've learned over the years reporting.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  And so I just, maybe Jassy will instruct his comms and policy teams to like, take a different tact. I'm just, uh, I just will believe it when I see it. And so, yes, I think there's real risk, risk. You know, I've reported Lena Khan, um, sort of, uh, I don't know if you wanted to describe Lena, but, um, uh, wrote this paper. Yeah, Lena is sort of an antitrust scholar and was the, a lawyer on the House Antitrust Subcommittee that investigated the tech giants, who believes all these companies need to be reined in. She's, she's in contention for an FTC commissioner spot, which would be a very big deal.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Um, I think there's real risk and, you know, you would think Jassy might not want to sit down before Congress or, you know, other, other courts, um, and might want to take a different tact. But smart people inside that company think the best way forward is to be, um, somewhat combative and dismissive of some, you know, some of these complaints. And so.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  I'm just, I'm just, I'm just here to watch the ride.

• 23:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  Welcome to the Thunderdome. Yeah, it's gonna be intense and they won't, they won't easily get past the government on this stuff. I think it's gonna be a rocky few years for Amazon. We'll have more to say about it on the show. Lastly, you hosted the first season of Land of the Giants, great podcast with Recode. I was a fan of it and remain a fan of it. And now I'm going to be hosting this season premiering on Tuesday, this upcoming Tuesday about Google. So I just want to say a quick thank you, Jason, for pioneering the show and to everybody out there. Give it a listen, it's gonna be fun. We get everybody from Larry and Sergey's advisor, Terry Winograd, to Marissa Meyer and people who've worked on products like toolbar and Chrome and folks involved in the employee protest.

• 23:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  So thank you, Jason, for laying the groundwork on that front.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  As long as people start with season one about Amazon, I'm happy to help.

• 23:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's a great, it's a great, I mean, really, it was a great season. I sourced it in my book. I thought it was, was great. You got some great access, went into fulfillment centers in towns that had been impacted by fulfillment centers that had set up shop and left. So when people are finished with the Google season, then they should go listen to your season.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  That's, that's fine with me. I'm very excited to start listening to your season.

• 24:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, sounds good. Well, Jason, it was great to reunite, really nice to see you again. Congrats on all the great work and you'll have to come back when you're on your book tour.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Thanks, Alex, so much.

• 24:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, thanks, everybody for listening. It's been another great week here on the Big Technology Podcast. Shorter episode this week. We're doing some experimentation and so let's see if people like this better or they like it worse. As always, your feedback is appreciated. You can always send it to [email protected]. Next week, a special episode. We're gonna air it Tuesday to sync up with the launch of Land of the Giants. Three mayors on the future of technology in the United States. Mayor Francis Suarez from Miami, Mayor Steve Adler from Austin, Mayor Satya Rodecon from.

• 25:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  Madison, Wisconsin. That'll be a fun one. I'm about to go jump and do that interview. So I hope that you join us and stay tuned. And thanks again for listening. Big thanks to Red Circle for hosting and selling ads. A big thanks to Nate Guattini for editing this on a short timeline. And thanks again to our guest, Jason Del Rey. We will see you next week here on the Big Technology Podcast.

• 25:36Speaker 02

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