Tim Van Orden Runs Beyond The Kale — Why Personal Growth Begins With Self-Acceptance

If you are a consistent listener to this show, then you know very well that my goal is to elucidate the experience, insights and knowledge of my guests as a tool to aid you on your progress towards greater self-actualization. Food is a super important aspect of this process. I believe it’s the best place to begin the process of transforming your life. But it’s also easy to get overly caught up in the dogmatic aspects of diet and nutrition. Unnecessarily boxed in by labels. Overly focused on details and minutiae. This presents a treacherous social, political and internal minefield that can result in truncating long-term growth potential. Because when we obsess on our plate at the exclusion of objectively redressing the many other very important areas of our lives that warrant focus and attention, our overall development towards full actualization is arrested. I didn't clean up my diet so I could get stuck pontificating on the various types of dark leafy greens until all my friends fled for the hills. I cleaned up my diet so I could raise my energy levels, shift my consciousness and direct my newfound lease on life towards continual growth and expansion. A search for greater meaning, purpose and answers that will hopefully occupy me for the remainder of my days here on Earth. Optimal nutrition based on plant-based foods is a great step in the direction of optimal wellness.. But that is all that it is — a step. Hardly the be-all-end-all. Because wellness encompasses so much more than food. Far from the end of inquiry, think of quality nutrition more as a right of initiation that will repair your physical body, raise your vibration, elevate your consciousness and take you on a wild and unexpected journey towards healing, a sense of purpose, greater authenticity and actualization that will be unpredictable and challenging but ultimately astounding. This is a process Julie and I call going beyond the kale. And it's the primary theme of this week's offering. Enter Tim Van Orden. If you have been with me on this podcast journey since it's inception, then you will recall my conversation with Tim back in the early days – RRP Episode 15 to be exact. Over the course of that conversation we delved into Tim's personal story, particularly his trajectory from relatively aimless and unhealthy junk food vegetarian to the raw food fueled running champion he is today. An exploration of food, athleticism, consciousness and holistic minimalism that transformed this non-athlete into a 10-time US Masters Trail Running National Champion. You may also recall the horrible Skype audio. At that time I was still trying to find my voice and had yet to master the technology (I still haven't, which is one of many reasons why I resist interviewing guests by Skype). Moreover, I had yet to actually meet Tim in person. Fast forward 92 episodes and now we’re friends — conversing in person and picking up where Episode 15 left off. This week it's less about diet and more about the bigger picture. Specifically, this conversation focuses on the psychology and emotional landscape that informs and drives self-perception, habits (both healthy and unhealthy) and decision making. This is a very frank, honest, open and soul bearing exchange about ego, vulnerability, authenticity, and attachment. It's about self-image as a predictor of mood, action and outcome. It's about the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves that inform how we see ourselves in the world. It's about the self-acceptance required to confront and ultimately overcome the dreaded and unhealthy aspects of ourselves we keep hidden that handicap growth. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:09Rich Roll?

  Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, episode 107, with Tim Van Orden.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:27Rich Roll?

  All right, you guys, let's do this thing. My name is Rich Roll. Welcome to my podcast, to the RRP, the Rich Roll Podcast. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing the show with a friend. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. This really helps us out a lot. It really keeps the wind blowing in our sails. So, thank you, thank you, thank you to everybody who's been supporting us this way. It doesn't cost you a thing, but Amazon kicks us some loose commission change, and you guys have been amazing in supporting us in that way. So, please, keep doing it, and I appreciate it. If you're new to the show, what do we do here?

• 2:09Rich Roll?

  Well, briefly, each week, I sit down with the best, the brightest,

• 2:16Rich Roll?

  The most paradigm busting minds in health, wellness, diet, nutrition, fitness, and creativity, and conscious capitalism, people like world-class athletes, doctors, nutritionists, entrepreneurs, artists, all here to share their experience, to share their insights, to share their knowledge, to help you discover, uncover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. Food, that's what we're going to talk about right now for a minute. Food is a super important aspect of this process of transformation, and I personally and truly believe that it's the best place to begin the process of changing your life.

• 2:58Rich Roll?

  But it's also very easy to get overly caught up in food, to get stuck, to get dogmatic, to get hung up on labels, and ultimately fall prey to a disposition that, I don't know, truncates your ultimate growth potential by arresting your development, because you become overly focused at the exclusion of other areas of your life with what's on your plate. For me, I cleaned up my diet so I could raise my energy levels, so I could shift my consciousness, and then direct that newfound bounty and search for greater purpose and meaning and new directions in my life.

• 3:40Rich Roll?

  It's what we call going beyond the kale. So, don't get me wrong, food is a great step. It's an important step, it's a crucial step, but it is not the end of the inquiry. The journey, the quest goes on. Food is a first and important step, but it's hardly the be-all, end-all. And that's really the primary theme of today's show. Tim Van Orden. If you're a longtime listener to the show, then you may recall my conversation with Tim back in the early days, episode 15. We talked about Tim's trajectory from relatively aimless and unhealthy junk food vegetarian into a raw food beast, a journey in food and athleticism that transformed Tim, who

• 4:25Rich Roll?

  was then a non-athlete, into a 10-time U.S. Masters, trail-running, national champion. That's right. And we talked about his holistic approach to life and how he makes it all work on a 100% raw, plant-based diet. It's an amazing conversation. So you might want to go back and dial that up before listening to this, or after you listen today, go back and listen to that one. But if you do, you will also notice the horrible Skype audio. This is one of the reasons why I really refrain from using Skype for my interviews. There's just something about doing it in person. But at that time, I was really still trying to find

• 5:06Rich Roll?

  my voice as a podcaster, and also I had very much yet to master the technology involved. And actually, I'd never met Tim in person at that time. But fast forward to now, we're friends, and I'm super pumped to sit down with him in person 92 episodes later and pick up our conversation where it left off last time. So this time, we're going to kind of dispense with the personal backstory, because we did that before, and we're going to delve into the bigger picture. We're going to explore the emotional landscape and the psychology behind habits, both healthy and unhealthy. We're going to talk about what

• 5:46Rich Roll?

  drives decision-making. And ultimately, we have this incredibly frank, honest, open, and vulnerable, soul-bearing conversation about ego, about attachment, about goals and why they are important, or if they're important. What's truly important in life? And the actions required to overcome unhealthy practices in a long-term, sustainable way, and reframe the personal stories we tell ourselves about ourselves that are not serving us. Self-acceptance. Self-acceptance as the starting point to rebuild a new, more healthy,

• 6:29Rich Roll?

  more fulfilling, and ultimately happier experience in this short time we share here on planet Earth. I dig Tim. I dig his vibe. I dig his authenticity, his honesty, and his willingness to be raw, to pardon the pun. He is truly a unique guy, a very, very special guy, and I'm proud to call him my friend. So let's step into it and see what we can dig up.

• 7:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so that's kale, coconut, flaxseed, meringue, and strawberry.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  I wondered what that flavor was. I hadn't had it before, meringue. Tell me about meringue.

• 7:16Rich Roll?

  Meringue, yeah, superfood. It's the, uh, it's the superfood that covers all your bases. It's, uh, of course, now I'm on the spot. I'm supposed to pontificate on the benefits of meringue, draw a blank, but I'll put it up in the show notes. But essentially, it's a really powerful superfood, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, boosts your immune system, all sorts of things. It's kind of like, uh, it's, it's, it's like the, the guy who can play every position in baseball, you know, kind of hits on all levels. So I like to make that a staple.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Anti-bad stuff, pro-good stuff.

• 7:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's pro-good. That's where, that's where it's at. So we're in the garage. You can hear the wind blowing. We had to roll up the garage door. There's a nice breeze. It seems like every time I record a podcast in the garage, it's a windy day. So you're gonna hear a little bit of that and probably some motorcycles. But nothing could be worse than the audio from our previous session, podcast, episode 15, which we did by Skype before we had ever met in person.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:20Rich Roll?

  And I don't know if you remember, but we went back and forth, because I think I wanted you to record it also, because my, I was having problems that day. And I, I went and listened to a little bit of it earlier today. And I was like, oh, that's horrible audio, you know? And that's one of the reasons why, one of many reasons, I really avoid trying to do Skype, you know, for interviews. There's just something about being in person. So it's good to have you here, man.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Hey, it's great to be here, Rich. It's a real honor.

• 8:48Rich Roll?

  Good, man. I'm glad. We have so many things to talk about.

• 8:52Rich Roll?

  You know, we don't need to get into your whole story because we did that before. And people that are listening, just go back and listen to episode 15 if you want to hear kind of more about Tim's background. But I want to jump in and talk about where things are now.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:06Rich Roll?

  You know, one of the things that's kind of going on with me currently is this idea of what's next and, you know, where am I taking this advocacy? Where am I taking this mission? And I think it would be, I talked about, I had Brendan Brajer on the podcast recently, and we talked about this as well. It was a really interesting conversation. You know, it'd be very easy to just stay in this world where, you know, it's all about like, what's your smoothie recipe?

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:33Rich Roll?

  Or, you know, what kind of kale should I buy? And just stick with the food, you know? It's a sweet spot. Everybody's interested in that. And you can build your whole life around that. But, you know, I've been doing that for a while. And now it's really, I'm interested in what's next. You know, what is the evolution, you know, beyond the plate? And Julie likes to call it beyond the kale. Like, let's get beyond the kale. Like, why are, why did we clean up our diet? What are we doing with all this energy that we have? And I know that that's something that you, that you share. And I've watched your evolution even over the last, even, even year. And, you know, I tune into your, your, your videos and I watch what you're talking about. And it's very much not about the food.

• 10:17Rich Roll?

  It's about emotions and it's about psychology. And I like how you lead every video with, you know, change your diet, change your life, change the planet. And it's like, that is, that encapsulates the evolution, I think, that a lot of people experience when they embark on this lifestyle because it does affect your consciousness.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:37Rich Roll?

  And it leads you on this journey that hopefully, if you continue to be committed to evolving, will eventually take you beyond the kale.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yep. And it's not to change your diet. Like, you know, when I came up with that tagline many years ago...

• 10:52Speaker 01

  I realized even then, even though I wasn't talking about it yet, I realized then that this is just the first step. And I made a video recently where I talked about the gas that we put in our cars. You know, we gas up the car, I had to fill up the tank to come out here to see you. And I didn't think about the gas. As soon as I swiped the credit card, that was it. My conversation about gas ended and I got in the car and I drove. But with food, for some reason, we keep thinking about the gas. We keep talking about the gas. And people get stuck there. You know, they change their diet and then they're stuck. And they haven't moved to the next step, which is change your life now. What's important to you, what matters? Okay, you filled up the tank, great. It's high-quality gas, but what are you gonna do with it?

• 11:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  What kind of life do you want? Do you want a life where you just talk about food? You know, is that what's important to you? Or do you just want to use that fuel to do things in a way that you haven't been able to before? Because now you're more properly nourished, you're not numbed out by the food, you've gotten rid of many degenerative diseases caused by malnutrition, in a sense, you know, eating a standard American diet. And, you know, now you're operating at a higher level. What are you gonna do with that?

• 12:05Rich Roll?

  Right. Let's just talk about kale forever.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 12:08Rich Roll?

  You know, one of the things I always say is that with every thought that pops into your head, every word that comes out of your mouth, every action you take, every decision you make, every single one of those micro-events in your life

• 12:22Rich Roll?

  are moving you either towards greater growth or regression.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:25Rich Roll?

  Right? And growth is a process that will continue throughout your entire life, or regression, right? This is not a, there's no destination here. This is something you can do for the remainder of your life and still only scratch the surface of it. So where are you heading? You know, where are you taking all of this? And so that brings up the obvious question, Tim, where are you taking? What are you doing?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  The million-dollar question, or the billion-dollar question. Now, millions are not worth enough anymore.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  You know, I often have to define my occupation when I cross a border somewhere, especially into Canada. I'm driving from Vermont or from Seattle and I'm crossing the border and they ask me, you know, what do you do? And for a while, I didn't know what to say. I tried, I'm an athlete, because for a long time, that's what I was. For seven years, I was an athlete. That's all I did. And they looked at me and like, well, what kind of athlete? And I said, well, I'm a runner. And then one guy even said, that's not an athlete. He laughed and he's like, runners aren't athletes. I'm like, what do you mean? So they would often say, well, how are you affording to make this trip if you're just an athlete? Like, do you make money as an athlete? And I said, no, not really. I'm kind of an advocate and I just, I want to get out there and promote a plant-based

• 13:39Speaker 01

  diet and do things athletically that demonstrate that the power of the diet. But no, I really don't make any money doing that. And they would always give me a really hard time. So what are you really doing? So what am I really, yeah, what are you really doing here? You know, how are you affording to stay in Canada? So I had to think about, first of all, what am I going to say to them when I cross the border? But number two, what am I really? And you brought up the word in the beginning of the, excuse me, in the podcast, which was advocate. And now that's what I call myself. I'm a health advocate. And that's kind of a nebulous term. We kind of understand what it is, but on the ground, what does it look like? What are

• 14:17Speaker 01

  the daily practices of a health advocate? And for me, it's simply about distilling the sea of contradictory information out there, distilling it down to digestible snippets that you can, you know, present to people so that they can make more informed, better, better informed decisions about their life. Not just their diet, but also about the actions that they're taking, the goals that they're moving towards. So for me, I do more to study in psychology now than I do in biochemistry or physiology. You know, I studied a great deal of that. I don't know everything about those topics, but I studied enough to understand

• 15:00Speaker 01

  how the diet works. And now it's about, you know, how does the mind work? How do we actually? Change our lives, okay, we can change the diet, but then the next step is change your life, and that's psychology. So for me now, as a health advocate, what I'm doing is presenting challenge on my YouTube videos, like, okay, here's the challenge, this is what I'm struggling with today, you know, this, I woke up and this obstacle slammed me right in the face. What am I gonna do? Here are the steps. First of all, I hear was my, this was my reaction, I broke down, I got anxious, I got hot flashes, sweaty, whatever, and then I did this, and I did this, and I did this, and this is the outcome. The outcome is, I'm now running 20 miles in the snow, in the mountains, and I feel

• 15:43Speaker 01

  great, and the obstacle just doesn't even really bother me anymore. How did I get there? Here's the process. So, what that looks like for me as an occupation now is traveling around the country, giving talks. I've been working on a book for eight years. Come on, Tim. I know, right? That's what Brendan Brazer said, he's like, "Tim, just finish it already." Yeah, yeah, yeah. I assume it's called Running Raw? You know, it was gonna be called Running Raw, but I think I've changed, um, yeah, that's gonna be part of, I think there's gonna be two books now, one is my story, because I think there's a lot of important lessons that I've learned that could be of value to people. But the, the book that I'm really working on is, it's kind of a user's manual to the

• 16:27Speaker 01

  mind and body, in a way that I haven't seen presented before. You know, it's not, uh, it's not an intellectual plaything, which I think most self-help books are, it's like, these are great ideas, these are great, they sound good on paper, but when somebody is really, really struggling, do they work? So, you know, I put myself through the test in Vermont, I really, really intentionally challenged myself financially, socially, physically, um, and discovered or created tools that helped me deal with those situations, so that I know they work in really challenging times. That's great, I mean, I think that the...

• 17:08Rich Roll?

  The real meat of all of this is the gap between information and inspiration and action, or change, or transformation. Because, you know, we know how to eat, right? We know we need to eat lots of fruits and vegetables irrespective of whatever your dietary proclivity is. That's not news to anybody, right?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Our grandmother told us that.

• 17:31Rich Roll?

  But so many people, most people, struggle with that very concept. You know, how do you implement this concept into action to change your life? And I myself have been doing a lot of study on that. Like, what is it that holds people back? What is the difference between, you know, a guy who can lose 200 pounds and run his first marathon versus somebody else who tries it for a week and abandons it? Like, what are the, what can you discern or, you know, sort of divine from studying these people, their psychology, their emotional well-being, their, you know, spiritual health,

• 18:11Rich Roll?

  all of these things, to be able to extract principles that are applicable and not just sort of platitudes? You know, because I think a lot of self-help books are, they're platitudes, you know?

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Exactly. Just do it.

• 18:24Rich Roll?

  Right. There's a writer named James Altucher, I've had him on the podcast, phenomenal blogger, guy churns out books like crazy, but I've been meaning to read this article, I haven't read it yet, but the title really captured me and I bookmarked it to read later, but basically he's saying that most self-help books are just placebos. And the placebo effect is powerful, like, you know, a placebo works, I think it's a misnomer to even call it a placebo, but, but, you know, what's the difference between the placebo effect and true, you know, catalyzed change?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Well, I think the difference is suffering.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  A placebo gets you so far, maybe it advances you 20%, but I think if you're only moving 20%, I'm making these numbers up, it's just, you know, playing with thoughts here. If you're only moving 20%, it's gonna feel good for a little bit, but then you're gonna slowly ratchet back down to 18%, 15%, 9%, and before you know it, you're right back to zero again, which is zero, the baseline of where you were. And what we see in psychology here, a lot of talk about post-traumatic stress disorder, but there's also a phenomenon called post-traumatic growth. And a certain percentage of the population gets PTSD after trauma, and another percentage,

• 19:42Speaker 01

  a smaller percentage, gets post-traumatic growth, where something really bad happens and it forces the person to change.

• 19:49Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  And it's not that 20% placebo, "Okay, I'm feeling a little bit better, oh, good, I've got a little bit of relief here." It's like, wham, your life is now radically different, like, for instance, my tooth, we're gonna talk about later.

• 20:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  "I just lost a front tooth." How scary is that? I'm walking around LA with no front tooth.

• 20:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're in the wrong town for that, buddy.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Right? And I'm, you know, still smiling at women in Whole Foods and whatever, and it's like, okay, I'm learning how to be okay with that.

• 20:15Rich Roll?

  You're the crazy old guy that lives down by the river.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 20:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Excuse me, I like that idea of post-traumatic growth. I think another thing that comes into play is this idea of short-term goals and short-term gains. Like, if you're trying to lose weight, you get to that place, and then you breathe easy, and then you lapse back into your old habits, because you think you've accomplished something, as opposed to sustainable lifestyle transformation.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, you know, for me, the tactic that I've taken, it started out as a mistake, or at least, that's the way I looked at it. In fact, many great inventions start out as mistakes, accidents. They're trying to do one thing, this guy was trying to make an adhesive, the adhesive failed, because it was too weak, and then he realized that he could make a Post-it note, and that's how the Post-it note was invented. It was a failed adhesive, it wasn't strong enough. And for me, as I started the Running Raw project, the one thing I kept bumping into as my training needed to advance, and then advance, and then advance, was that I couldn't do it, I couldn't do the training. And it wasn't physical, the diet really changed me physically, so I was able to do the training, you know, in that regard, but mentally, I couldn't get myself to train.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  And I've dealt with depression almost my entire adult life. It's, you know, one of my best friends. And I've also dealt with extreme shyness and social anxiety and many other cocktails of emotional challenge all come together as me, as a human being. And I tried to hide that for a while when I started this project. You know, I really, I kept that buried because I just wanted people to see the results of the diet. I didn't want them to know about my personal challenges. Because that's going to take away from the diet. Oh, eating that diet makes you depressed or eating that diet makes you, you know, emotionally weak or whatever people are going to say. So I hid it. But then, after really struggling to keep the training up and failing and trying to do it again,

• 22:13Speaker 01

  I really had to start investigating psychology just so that I wouldn't look bad as an athlete. Because I really wanted to represent the diet. So that's where my journey into psychology and neuroscience began, was to try to get myself, who I consider one of the most emotionally challenged people I've ever met. How do I get myself to consistently train in an inhospitable environment, Vermont? Long winters, running in the snow, in the mountains. Just about as challenging as terrain gets. In fact, I was inspired by Rocky IV, seeing Sylvester Stallone running in the snow and carrying logs. That's essentially what I do. And I thought, if I can get myself to consistently train,

• 22:58Speaker 01

  there's something there, there's value there. If I can, if it can work for me. So instead of looking at the seven habits of highly effective people or, you know, what wealthy people, what their behavior, behavioral characteristics are, what are the characteristics of people that are really struggling? I know, because I'm one of them. So I really started to investigate challenge. Like not investigating people that are doing it right, but let's investigate people that can't do it at all. And really understand intimately what their challenges are, what they're saying to themselves, where they fall down. So I just became really open and honest with myself and with my public as I started talking about depression, talking about emotional challenge,

• 23:42Speaker 01

  and really getting in there and being transparent about it. And man, has it changed my life.

• 23:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, authenticity, honesty, integrity, transparency. This is what people are gravitating towards now. This is where you can find these just beautiful expressions through new media, you know? And that's what I tried to do in my book. That's what I tried to do in the podcast. And it's interesting what you say because as somebody who's considered a thought leader in this movement, everyone's looking to you, "Tim, guide me." You know, you're the one who's out, you know, nine-time US Masters Trail Champion. Like, "This guy knows something I don't, and he's going to teach me." And you're up here and they're down there. And it takes a lot of courage to say, "You know what? I'm a human being and I'm struggling,

• 24:32Rich Roll?

  and these are the things that I'm struggling with." And allow yourself to be vulnerable in that regard. It's not an easy thing to do. But when you have the willingness to do that, that's when you can truly not only connect with people because they see the humanity. They know that you're not bullshitting them. You're telling them the truth. And that's when you can step into a place of really being able to not only help yourself, but help other people. Because you develop a level of trust that is, you know, beyond what people are used to when, you know, they watch something on television or they read the newspaper or, you know, watch the plastic faces on the local news at night.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, also, when I started to embrace my challenge and investigate it, that's when I started getting good as an athlete. When I stopped fighting it, when I stopped resisting it, when I stopped hiding it and really embraced it. Like, okay, I'd wake up and say, "All right." I don't want to get out of bed. I really have no interest in living today. But I know that I've got to run 20 miles. And it's below zero outside. And we've got a foot of snow on the ground. And the trails that I run on are going to be covered. And I don't want to get out of bed. So what is the process? So it's about, it was about really getting in there and looking at these tiny micro steps. And that's what I really advocate now. Not looking at the big picture of your life.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  That's important when you're feeling good. When you're in a good state, when you're not really struggling, great. You know, get up above the scene and take a look and say, oh, okay, I'm flying over Calabasas right now. Or I'm flying over Ventura or Los Angeles. But those are, those are concepts. You know, what does Calabasas look like? I don't know right now, but I know what your table looks like. And I know what the microphone looks like. That's reality. I can actually do something with these physical things that I'm looking at right here. But I don't know what Calabasas looks like here. So when you're really, really struggling, you've got to get present to the, the tools that are at hand. Really come into the moment and say, okay, I don't feel well. I don't want to get out of bed. So what can I do?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Well, I'm in bed and the covers are on me. So I'm going to pull back the covers. That's it. That's it. That's, that's the one thing I'm going to focus on right now. I don't have a lot of energy, but I probably have enough energy for that. So let's do that. And I do. Okay, what's next? All right, let's slide our legs over the side of the bed, put them on the floor, sit up. Okay, how you doing? Well, I really, I don't feel great. I still, I'm not excited, but all right. Okay, let's get up, find a pair of shorts. All right, put a pair of shorts on, find a shirt. All right, let's start walking towards the kitchen. And I don't have a goal yet. I'm simply now out of bed with some clothes on.

• 27:13Rich Roll?

  The next right action.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  The next right action.

• 27:15Rich Roll?

  You're not looking any further than what is the next action.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  No, because that's scary. Because a depressed person, or somebody that's really challenged, if they start thinking into the future, they start comparing themself and how they feel to that future, and the gap is too wide. Okay, if I have to be a raw foodist, or if I have to be a vegan, and that's this identity that I have to strictly hold on to, that's too much, way too much pressure. But if I can just walk towards the kitchen, all right, well, there's no identity there. There's no real pressure there. Yeah, even though I'm depressed, I can walk towards the kitchen. I get there, all right? Grab a banana. Peel it, that's it. That's all you're doing, you're peeling a banana, all right? Put it in the blender. Okay, peel another one. Get some frozen blueberries. Put them in the blender. Open the fridge, get some kale.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Put it in the blender. And I just focus on the steps. I'm not telling myself anything. I don't have, okay, I've got to do a 30-day juice challenger, smoothie challenger. I've got to lose 50 pounds. You know, whatever people tell themselves, they set these big goals. Again, they're flying above the city, looking down, but they're not on the ground. So I just put myself through the steps until there I am, drinking a green smoothie, but I never told myself I had to. Because a green smoothie is a concept. You know, it's holding the banana in your hand and peeling it. That's the reality. And then when I'm done, I walk into my room, put whatever clothes on I need, one step at a time. I walk out the door. I start my watch. I pick up my foot.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  I take a single running step. And then, you know, off I go. I don't tell myself how far I have to go. I don't tell myself how hard I have to go. I simply focus on the tiniest of steps. And not only does it get me in action regardless of how the day started, and my days often start pretty rough, but I always get into action with that method, and it's got me really present, which has changed who I am as a person. It's really caused me to just be present to my surroundings. So when I am running, or when I'm doing anything now, I'm really present to it. And I'm not thinking about these fantasies and these goals. I'm here. And it's changed everything.

• 29:27Rich Roll?

  I love that. I mean, I think that I distill that concept down to one phrase, which is mood follows action.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Mood follows action.

• 29:34Rich Roll?

  Mood follows action. I mean, you cannot think your way out of that situation when you wake up and you're like, there's no way I'm going running. It's freezing out, blah, blah, blah. You run this mental loop and you're done before you've even done anything, right? And for me, it's about really embracing this idea that emotions are things that you don't really have to engage. Like, they're happening. They're not going to kill you. You're feeling a certain way. So, reserve your judgment to the extent that you're capable of doing that. Reserve your judgment about that feeling that you're having, that emotion

• 30:13Rich Roll?

  that you're having. Understand that emotions are fluid. They're always changing. But if you just sit there, you're likely to wallow in it as opposed to the way out, which is to take a simple action, one action at a time, followed by another one. And then before you know it, you're out running and you did your 20-mile run. And I would say that there's nary a day where you get back from that run and say, I wish I didn't do that. I wish I laid in bed.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  I feel incredible. In fact, 20 minutes into that run, I'm on top of the world and I don't want to stop. I don't want to stop.

• 30:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  And if you can't take an action, the action's too big. Make it smaller. And keep making it smaller until you can take it. So, you know, get dressed for running. Well, there's a lot of steps in get dressed for running. So, just pick one of them. Put your socks on, okay? That's just one step. If you can't take it, it's too big. Keep making it smaller until you can do this very smallest step. But also, you know, with emotion, it's about people identify with their emotions. Rather than having emotions, they identify with them.

• 31:21Rich Roll?

  Right. It becomes who you are.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  It becomes who you are.

• 31:23Rich Roll?

  As opposed to it is something that you're feeling that is distinct from your higher consciousness.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's funny because the most popular smartphone is the iPhone. And they do a lowercase i, but really, it should be an uppercase I. Because what happens is emotions are simply signals coming in from the environment. Okay? Something is coming in which triggers a physical, emotional response in me. It's like an email buzzing in. So I've got my iPhone, and if somebody texts me, it's got one sound. If somebody emails me, it's got another sound. If somebody calls me, it's another sound, a ringtone. Depending on who's calling me, it's going to be different ringtones. So that's essentially what emotions are. They're signals coming in. And if I like somebody, okay, well, that's a good ringtone emotionally. If I don't like somebody, that's a negative ringtone emotionally.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  But I am not my iPhone.

• 32:13Rich Roll?

  Right, like who are you? If you put it on airplane mode, then do you disappear?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 32:17Rich Roll?

  Do you not exist anymore?

• 32:18Speaker 01

  A lot of people do. You see them freaking out. They're like, "I'm not connected right now."

• 32:22Rich Roll?

  Uh huh, interesting.

• 32:35Rich Roll?

  This distinction between, and this is something I talk about a lot, between, you know, the thinking mind or the emotional body and who you are, like your true identity outside of these externalities.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  And the awareness of both. That's another part, being aware of the thinking mind, being aware of the emotional mind or body.

• 32:53Rich Roll?

  And the only way to do that is to stop and focus on the present.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Get present. Step back. Just watch, say, "Ooh, I'm, okay, there's a ringtone coming in. All right, let's take a look at it. Okay, that's my mom. All right, how do I feel? Okay, I feel this reaction in my body." Just notice it. You know, you're a surfer, right?

• 33:12Rich Roll?

  I wouldn't go that far.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Okay, well, you've been in the water with the waves. Emotions are simply waves rising. And if you go out to the beach in Malibu and you watch the surfers, 90% of the time, they're not surfing. They're just sitting on their boards, letting the waves lift them up and then drop them. And that's really an analogy for how to deal with your emotions. You don't have to surf every wave. You don't have to answer every phone call that comes in. And you don't have to respond to every emotion that comes in. You get to pick. If it's a positive emotion that's going to take you to a great place, surf it. Paddle for that wave, ride it into shore. But if you know that it's going to lead to a negative outcome, just let it lift you up. Breathe in and then breathe out and it goes away, just like the wave.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  The wave crashes on shore, you don't crash with it.

• 33:59Rich Roll?

  I would say that that applies as well to the chatter of the mind.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:03Rich Roll?

  Distinct from emotions. And again, this is something I've talked about before on the podcast, but we all have stories we tell ourselves about who we are. And usually what we do is we search back into our memory banks and we extract out, you know, four or five or 10 or 12 significant events in our life. And we string those together like beads on a, you know, on a necklace or something like that. And, and these events then comprise, you know, 70, 80% of who we think that we are. And somebody who is pessimistic or negatively inclined will think back on traumatic events

• 34:44Rich Roll?

  or times when things didn't go so well and, and create an entire identity around that.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:50Rich Roll?

  You know, conversely, somebody who's optimistic will think about all the good things that have happened and walk around feeling grateful and blessed. But in both cases, they're illusions because true identity is fluid and so much more than that. And like you have a choice about which emotions to engage in, like the surfer who's sitting, you know, letting the waves roll underneath him or her. We have a choice about which stories we want to tell ourselves about who we are, which events we want to focus on.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:21Rich Roll?

  And again, getting to the present allows you to extract yourself, exempt yourself out of that story, I suppose.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's, we either live in the past or we live in a future informed by the past. And both are problematic. So what happens is you grow up, kids, somebody picked on you. You were never a good athlete, but you always wanted to show them, which for me was part of my motivation.

• 35:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a big part of your story.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I wanted to show people like I can do this, you know, I'm, I'm not a loser or whatever I was calling myself at the time. And so I'm taking those wounds of the past, throwing them up into the future and saying, "Okay, if I make an Olympic team, then that's gonna fix everything. Then I will show them. Then they're gonna see. Then they're gonna like me. Then they're gonna respect me." And I think this motivates a lot of people. They're trying to show somebody. Their dad, their mom, their ex-boyfriend, their third grade, you know, teacher, a math teacher in high school. "I'll show them." And we're really just trying to heal those wounds of the past. So the real problem is

• 36:29Speaker 01

  that we set these goals and the goals really have nothing to do with us at all. You know, "I wanna lose weight" or "I wanna win this race." Like I was talking to someone yesterday who is gonna run a marathon next week, but they're only running 30 miles a week and they're really struggling with their long run, you know, which is they're doing a 20-mile run and then 10 miles for the rest of the week spread out. And it's like, "Why are you running a marathon? You're not, you're not ready to run a marathon." You know, "What?" And she's like, "I have to. I have to prove to myself that I can do this and, you know..." And there's so many people out there getting into athletics, marathons, these Spartan races and whatever else, because they really feel like they need

• 37:10Speaker 01

  to beat themselves into submission somehow, because they, they don't like themselves. And they think if they accomplish this grand goal, it's gonna fix everything. So what, in a sense, they're doing is shaming who they currently are. That's interesting. Yeah, it's, they, people are living in shame and they think the only way they're gonna get over the shame, the only way they're gonna really accept or feel good about themselves is if they lose the 50 pounds, if they complete the marathon, if they get the job, the house, the car, the, you know, music contract, whatever. And what I've learned is that... None of those things work. None of those things work, first of all, because I tell you, Rich, you know, when I'm coming to the finish line to win my first US Masters title, man, I was elated.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  I was crying. I had goosebumps. You know, I turned around. The guy wasn't gonna catch me and I'm gonna be a national champion. And it was amazing. And five minutes later, who cares? I'm, you know, back in my rental car. That hole's still there. Why is that hole in my gut still there? Yeah, and actually now I've won 10. And I've been US Masters Runner of the Year four times, which is huge. And guess what? Didn't change a thing.

• 38:17Rich Roll?

  You're still Tim.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  I'm still Tim.

• 38:19Rich Roll?

  You still wake up in the middle of the winter not wanting to run?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Exactly. I still have the same challenges socially, emotionally and otherwise. So that was a huge lesson for me. And I'm glad I went through that because it's really informed me now. Because my new path, okay, where's Tim going next? It's all about self compassion. And accepting who you are and what you're feeling and even what you're saying to yourself. So I've created this voice in my head because we can control the voices in our head to some degree. When that little boy starts talking to me and telling me that I'm a loser and I'm pathetic and I might as well just stay in bed and nobody's gonna love me and whatever he likes to say. I have a loving parent voice that actually I verbally communicate to myself. I talk to myself out loud. Yeah, I am crazy.

• 39:06Rich Roll?

  So you do, it's like the Stuart Smalley technique?

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Well, but it's not an affirmation so much. It's, I simply say, it's okay. It's okay. I know you're scared. It's okay. I know you think you're not gonna be able to do this and that's okay. I get it. I feel it. I know you don't want to get out of bed right now. I understand. It's okay. I'm gonna carry you.

• 39:25Rich Roll?

  And as a result of doing that for how long now?

• 39:28Speaker 01

  I've been doing that for a couple of years now that I've been practicing that.

• 39:31Rich Roll?

  What is the result?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  The result is that no matter what shows up, I can handle it. I can transform it within 10 to 15 minutes. I don't care how bad the situation is. Like when my tooth came out the other day.

• 39:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  I had like 10 minutes of absolute freak out. And then I'm like, okay, all right, let's just get present. And I started talking to myself and I said, Tim, it's okay. It's okay. You're gonna be fine.

• 39:57Rich Roll?

  So let's talk about the tooth.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  All right, let's talk.

• 40:01Rich Roll?

  So I noticed when I ran into you at that panel the other day, I was like, there's something going on with his teeth. But, you know, I didn't, I didn't feel comfortable saying anything, you know, I hadn't seen you in a while or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, he's got a tooth issue. And of course, even though I've been plant-based for eight years, I immediately go towards, I wonder if that's related to eating raw foods? Is it from eating too much fruit? Because there, I know there's a lot of, you know, sort of chatter out there about eating an 80/10/10 diet and negative impacts on, on dental hygiene, et cetera. So I immediately thought of that. And then I went and watched your videos and heard you explain, you know, your sort of history with dental hygiene. So let's just, why don't you just lay it out?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, basically, I have a genetic disposition to weak teeth. When I was, I don't know, six, seven years old, I probably already had half the teeth in my mouth drilled and filled. As soon as I got adult teeth, they were all drilled and filled. And I don't remember if that was because of dental hygiene or simply genetics, but I knew a lot of kids that were eating crap and not taking care of their teeth that didn't have that problem. I know people that have never had a cavity in their entire life. And now I'm really, really good with dental hygiene. I'm really diligent, several times a day while I floss and brush. And yet, I still get cavities. And so part of it is a genetic component.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  The other part is, the reason I'm missing the tooth, I was doing a lot of fresh squeezed orange juice about a year ago, a lot of it, too much. And four fillings in my front teeth popped out. So basically, the citric acid in the orange juice, which is known to damage tooth enamel, there's a lot of data on this now, especially with sports drinks. It's not just orange juice, but, or lemon juice. Sports drinks are loaded with citric acid. So, and energy drinks as well.

• 41:57Rich Roll?

  Do the gels have that, those?

• 41:58Speaker 01

  I don't know if gels do, but most of the sports drinks on the market and in all of the energy drinks on the market have citric acid in them. And people are basically bathing their teeth in citric acid all day long. I know people that pound sports drinks and energy drinks all day. They're bathing their teeth in citric acid. And the effect of that on me with the orange juice was that four of my fillings basically like came out. My teeth started eroding. The fillings popped out, leaving, you know, some holes in my front teeth. And then the teeth just got unstable around those holes because, you know, they had drilled quite a ways into the tooth.

• 42:31Rich Roll?

  Right, right. Right, if you have a hole, then whatever you're eating is getting in there and eating it away. There's no enamel to protect you from that.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Structural instability. So it was just a matter of time before my tooth broke. But the damage was done 25 years ago, long before I was a vegan. I mean, I was drinking a gallon of milk a day and eating more burgers than you can possibly imagine. So it wasn't, you know, lacking animal protein or calcium because I was getting plenty of it. And my teeth were falling apart then.

• 42:59Rich Roll?

  Right, right. And so, you know, a lot of people would say, oh, my goodness, you know, I'm a YouTuber.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:07Rich Roll?

  And now I've got this dental issue. You know, maybe I should stop making videos. Like, how can I be on camera with this problem? And you made a different decision, which goes back to the issue we were talking about earlier, about transparency and vulnerability. To address it directly, talk about it. You even pull your tooth out.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:29Rich Roll?

  In one video, which is challenging to watch, but incredibly courageous. And what I see when I see that is somebody who's really developed an interesting relationship with their ego. Because the ego would not want you to make that choice.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 43:47Rich Roll?

  Right? And you're saying, I'm gonna do this anyway because maybe somebody else out there is dealing with this. And I feel the need to be transparent. And you're letting the world, you know, levy their judgments, whatever, however those may fall. And that's a bold act.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Well...

• 44:05Speaker 01

  It's not about me. And that's the thing, you watch a lot of YouTube channels, I mean, we live in the the me generation now. Everybody's doing selfies all the time. People are updating their Facebook posts every five minutes, they're tweeting every five minutes and it's like, me, me, me, look at me, please look at me. Why are you not noticing?

• 44:24Rich Roll?

  But look at me in my best light. You know, look at me when I'm, when I'm like, get that perfect selfie and, you know, I post on Instagram and I always try to post some epic running picture. I'm guilty of it as much as anyone else.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  I do it as well.

• 44:36Rich Roll?

  And now there's these studies saying people get depressed when they look on Facebook and it looks like everybody's having this amazing life.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  And see, that's the comparison again. Like you can compare yourself to your goals, or you can compare yourself to other people and what they're doing. And you're the person sitting in your room not doing anything and wow, look at what Rich is doing and look how fit he is. I will never be like that. He's older than me and I'm doing nothing. And it's a recipe for people feeling bad about themselves. And again, this goes back to shame. So, we're all trying to impress each other, but none of us are really living the life that we're presenting on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram.

• 45:16Rich Roll?

  Of course not.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  It's just a tiny slice of our best light, as you said. So I made the choice with my teeth, because my channel's not about me. My channel's not about growing subscribers, it's not about making money, because I don't. It's simply about helping people that are really...

• 45:32Rich Roll?

  Finish your book, Tim. We gotta make some money for you. All right. We get your teeth straight now, too.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that does have to happen, because it does affect my credibility. But while they're broken, I'm gonna use it as a learning and teaching tool. Learning for myself and teaching to others, because since I've started really being public about my depression and... Public about my teeth, especially, you know, pulling the tooth out and showing people on camera. Hey, here I am with a big hole in my smile.

• 46:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  People are like, thank you. I'm getting so many emails from people saying, thank you. Because I'm having issues like that and I'm embarrassed to leave the house. So many people have dental issues that you don't see them in public because they're at home hiding. Or people have depression and they're ashamed to be in public. They're ashamed to be around happy people. They're ashamed to be around thin people. Like, I don't even want to go out in public. I just want to stay home because I'm worthless. So when I talk about depression, the people that are dealing with depression are like, oh, you mean, I don't have to just lay in bed all the time? You mean, I could actually do things and have a functional life? And it's like, yeah, you can. Or you mean, just because I have cosmetic issues in my teeth or wherever else? You mean, I can still be out in public? And I don't have to be embarrassed?

• 46:48Speaker 01

  It's like, no, you don't. You can choose to be embarrassed if you want. But you don't have to. No one's requiring you to be embarrassed.

• 46:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. No, you're able to really connect with people in an honest way. You know, I'm having some pretty significant dental issues myself right now. And I showed you before the podcast, I'm missing most of the teeth. On the left side of my face, the upper teeth. I have historical dental problems that are, you know, just go back to me being a little kid as well. I think it might be caused by really aggressive orthodontia when I was a kid. Just like really cranking up the braces and the headgear and moving teeth around prematurely. And as a result of that, I have tremendous bone loss in all of my teeth. My roots are super short on every single one of my teeth.

• 47:38Rich Roll?

  And I started losing teeth in my early twenties. You know, the back molars were just, you know, like you could literally put a toothpick through the roots in the back. Like, there was such a big hole and they started coming out. Of course, this is, you know, being a, being an alcoholic and, you know, eating junk food, you know, none of these, those are not conducive to dental hygiene. I didn't take care of my teeth and I take responsibility for that. But I had some teeth, you know, within the last year that were like, you know, one tooth, I could just, I could have pulled it out on camera. It was just dangling. And the dentist, I finally, you know, I was like, I gotta deal with this. And basically, they just pulled them all out. I have, now I have, I'm getting ready to have

• 48:20Rich Roll?

  two implants and the middle tooth will be a bridge. So, and I haven't had that done yet. So I've been walking around for the last six or eight months with a huge gap. And you can't really, it's, unlike you, it's not in the front teeth. So unless I smile broadly, you don't see it. But you can see it. If I'm in a conversation, you can see others, you know, he's missing some teeth back there. And I'm self-conscious about it. And I get up and I'm, I've been traveling around doing public speaking and I have to get up in front of big groups of people and talk about health, talking about, you know, optimal wellness. And I have this gap in my tooth and I'm self-conscious about it. And I, when people at book signings or whatever, like, hey, take a picture, like, I kind of don't smile as broadly as I would because I don't want, I don't want that gap to show because I'm, you know, I'm, I have

• 49:04Rich Roll?

  an attachment to that. I have an ego, you know, and it's like, so it's not as extreme as what you're going through right now. But what I'm saying is, I relate and I'm compassionate and I applaud you for being so transparent and public about it.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Well, as you can probably see, I'm tearing up listening to you talk about that.

• 49:23Rich Roll?

  It's not that, it's not that bad. You know, like, and I know, like, next month, I'm going into the dentist and I'm starting the process of getting that dealt, you know, it's gonna be all fixed and fine. But, you know, I have, you know, but it won't be the end of it either. I'm gonna lose more teeth. But it doesn't have anything to do with how I'm eating now. I'm in the reparative phase of all of this.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  And there's gonna be, sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. I'm gonna, when I go home to Vermont on Tuesday, I'm gonna have all four front teeth pulled.

• 49:53Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Because the other three lost those fillings and they're quite fragile. So it's only a matter of time before they break.

• 49:59Rich Roll?

  Wow. Can you get at least like a retainer with some big teeth on it, something like that?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  They're gonna give me a denture. But I won't be able to put the denture on right away because when they pull the teeth out, you know, you can't just put something in there immediately because it's too sensitive. So for a week or so, I'm gonna be missing four front teeth. And I will make a video about that.

• 50:19Rich Roll?

  That's gonna be a very, very interesting video to watch, Jim.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, the thing that really scares me, and again, this is a great learning opportunity. I'm gonna have to look in the mirror and see my forefront teeth missing, and I'm gonna have to be okay with that.

• 50:34Rich Roll?

  That really puts it to the, that's a real litmus test. Like, can you accept yourself? Can you embrace yourself?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Can I still love myself? Can I still be supportive and compassionate with myself in that state? And, you know, there are people that lose more than just their teeth. Excuse me, there are people that lose limbs, or, you know, lose eyes, lose their jaw. You know, I've seen some people with some, you know, horrific disabilities, and they still move on. So, you know, for me, it's about, I spend a lot of time studying emotional resilience now and self-compassion. There's a lot of great literature out there on resilience and self-compassion, and there's a lot of scientific data to back it up now. We're actually getting to the point where science is catching up to what Buddhists have known for quite some time.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  That compassion for self first is the way to resilience, emotional resilience. It's how you bounce back from tragedy, by being compassionate, by being a parent to yourself and saying, "Yeah, you lost your teeth, and I know you're scared, and I know you're embarrassed, and I know you're self-conscious, and you'll, you think that a woman, no woman is ever gonna talk to you again, or nobody's gonna take your videos seriously, or nobody's ever gonna, you know, bring you in to speak in an event because clearly you've failed." And it's like, "I understand that, and it's okay. It's okay." "I'll help you get through this." So I keep saying that to myself, "I will help you get through this."

• 52:02Rich Roll?

  Emotional resiliency in the sense that you can weather whatever is being thrown at you and bounce back.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, bring it. You know, whatever comes at me.

• 52:11Rich Roll?

  That's power.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and the thing is, it's not about denying anything. It's not about pretending that the pain isn't there. It's not about pretending that the fear isn't there. It's about acknowledging them, letting them happen, experiencing those emotions, but not running away with them. Not letting your mind create a story about those emotions. Like, okay, I'm afraid. Now, I can engage, you know, my cognitive brain, and I can make a story about that fear and never leave the house again. Or I can simply feel the fear and use my cognitive mind to comfort myself in that fear.

• 52:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  And not say, oh, don't worry, you know, people are gonna like you. No, it's not about that. It's just about saying, okay, you're afraid, I understand. And it's okay.

• 52:55Rich Roll?

  I'm trying to imagine, you know, you missing some front teeth and then, you know, walking into your local coffee shop and having people react to that. And then you, them expecting you to be sheepish about it or sort of self-conscious. And you just smiling broadly and saying, yeah, man. Like, just being, like, owning it and being okay with that is going to cause other people to, like, freak out, you know? Because you're not, you're not giving them the reaction that they're going to be expecting.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 53:24Rich Roll?

  And that's disorienting, I think, for people.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  It is.

• 53:27Rich Roll?

  But also incredibly powerful.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Well, it's gonna be challenging for some, and it's gonna be, I think, really helpful for others because it's shocking. You know, we're taught to be embarrassed of these things, and we're taught to hide them. In fact, somebody commented on YouTube the other day when I did the tooth video. And they said, Tim, I totally disagree with what you're doing. They said, you're not supposed to flaunt your flaws. You're supposed to hide them. And this is what we're taught. You know, put on a little makeup, put on this, put on that, you know, accentuate the positives and go out there in the world and put your best foot forward. And I've tried to do that. Everybody's trying to do that. And look at where it gets us. We are not a healthy society.

• 54:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think people are getting increasingly savvy about when people are not authentic in that regard. Because we're so used to seeing so much content, we can see through that stuff pretty quickly. And it's the people that are, again, to continue to use this word, truly authentic, and owning their flaws that I think are the ones that are connecting with people in a meaningful way. As opposed to, you know, I'm on the podium and you're down there listening to me and I'm the expert and I know everything. And, you know, implicit in that is that you're flawless and you're perfect and you are going to grace them with your knowledge.

• 54:53Rich Roll?

  And it creates a sort of a power dynamic.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  You know, and it's funny, Rich, I'm sorry, but my brain plays with words. It's just I have a little illness. I heard you say expert on the podium and immediately my brain broke it apart, ex and pert. Like pert for pertinent. The moment that you claim you're an expert, you're basically standing out of the flow of life. You say, "I have the answers. I've grabbed the answers. I pulled them out of the flow of life and now I have them and I'm gonna write a book about it and I'm gonna tell you for the next 35 years that this is the answer and therefore I am no longer pertinent." Because life moves on. Things change. The expert of 20 years ago, his information, most likely if it's scientific, has been overturned completely.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  You know, and we're entering into new paradigms on a weekly basis, it seems, in science. And anybody that claims that "I have the answer" and they put their flag down, well, yes, they are an expert because they are no longer pertinent. The information is outside of the real, actual flow of life and it's not authentic. So for me, it's about leading with my flaws rather than leading with my strengths. Because what are people most afraid of? Where is the fear that stops people? What is it related to? It's related to our flaws. So if we can get people to be comfortable with their flaws, then suddenly the fear just kind of melts away.

• 56:19Rich Roll?

  And the fear is the block between

• 56:21Speaker 01

  That is the block.

• 56:22Rich Roll?

  the information and the action.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  So what happens if we just address the fear immediately? What happens if we just make it okay to have fear?

• 56:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think the confusion comes in because people think of it as eradicating the fear, or they feel bad if they have fear. And, you know, even, everybody has fear. It's about how you react to that fear, whether it's blocking you from acting or not. It's your relationship to that fear.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, Winston Churchill said that the only thing to fear is fear itself. I disagree. I think the only thing to fear is fear of fear. Fear is fine. There's nothing wrong with fear, but being afraid of fear is problematic.

• 57:10Rich Roll?

  I'm trying to wrap my Hold on a second. I'm catching up to you. The only thing to fear is fear itself. You should fear.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  The only thing to fear is the fear of

• 57:21Rich Roll?

  So Churchill's saying, you know, you don't want to fear fear.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  No, Churchill's saying you don't want to have fear.

• 57:25Rich Roll?

  You don't want to have fear. Right, okay, and you're saying

• 57:27Speaker 01

  I'm saying it's okay to have fear, just don't be afraid of it.

• 57:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Don't be afraid of your fear. Just have it and just talk yourself through it like, yeah, I'm afraid, okay? And I've used this, I practice this. In fact, I published a video a week and a half ago about a fight I broke up. I biked up Mount Greylock in Massachusetts, the highest point, and there's a lot of tourists on top because it's an access road. And there was this huge fight, these guys fighting and hurting each other, and there was blood, and it was ugly, and everybody was just watching, and people in are videotaping it, gonna pop it up on YouTube, I'm sure. And I'm like, this is not okay. And I really don't like conflict. Conflict makes me really, really uncomfortable. And being a shy person, conflict is the last place that I want to be. But as a compassionate man

• 58:16Rich Roll?

  Don't go to law school.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Oh wow, I can't even imagine that. But you know, here I am and seeing these men fighting and bloodying each other. And I just, I couldn't stand by and let it happen. And I couldn't be one of those people that just watched. So I walked over. And I said, "Hi, I'm Tim." And they looked at me like, "What the hell?" You know, they're in the middle of a fight and here's a guy walking over saying, "Hi, I'm Tim." And it stopped them. And then I just, I started asking them, you know, what they needed. What, you know, "Sir, you, what is it that you need? And what do you feel you're not getting? And you, sir, you know, what is it that you need?" And I just really started breaking it down and having a conversation about what they need and what they felt.

• 58:58Rich Roll?

  Did they engage you? Or they're like...

• 59:00Speaker 01

  They did engage me. First, they were really heated and they were just screaming, they were screaming at me, screaming at each other. "That son of a bitch did this, ah!" And then finally got, "Okay, I get that. I understand, you know, and I can see that you're angry. Is it anger that you're feeling? Do you feel disrespect? Like, let's, let's name the emotion." And then, "Okay, you, sir, you know, what is it that you're feeling? You know, you're feeling disrespected or whatever. And what is it that you want? You know, what resolution do you want here?" And after like five minutes of talking to them, they're shaking hands. One guy invited the other guy into the lodge to buy him a cup of tea. You know, the fight stopped. The cops who were called, were called again and said, you know, "It's okay. You don't need to come."

• 59:39Rich Roll?

  That's amazing. So was somebody, was the guy who was filming the fight still filming this?

• 59:44Speaker 01

  I, I don't even know.

• 59:45Rich Roll?

  This guy, I don't find that video.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  I don't know. There were like thirty people watching. They were all in the lodge, you know, up against the windows, watching the fight in the parking lot.

• 59:51Rich Roll?

  Did they engage you afterwards? Like, "Who are you? What did you just do here?"

• 59:54Speaker 01

  No, but the, but the two guys, one of the Rangers, he came up, he said, "Who are you? What the heck? What was that?"

• 59:59Rich Roll?

  Just like a Yoda-like character comes in and dissipates the whole thing.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know, the whole point was this, that I was scared. First, I was scared because I was seeing violence and I really don't like seeing violence. It's one of the reasons I'm vegan. But I, I don't like seeing people hurt each other or being hurt. And I was scared to death to approach them and immerse myself in the midst of that violence and maybe have the violence directed at me. But I just told myself as I was walking over, I said, "It's okay. It's okay. These men need help. It's okay. It's okay to be afraid and still walk towards them. That's okay. You can, you can be afraid and you can still be of service."

• 1:00:38Rich Roll?

  And it all worked out.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  And it all worked out. And maybe, you know, maybe I got lucky. I don't know.

• 1:00:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you could have gotten punched in the face.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  I could have got punched in the face, and that would have been okay, too.

• 1:00:47Rich Roll?

  Then you could blame your dental issues on that.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  That's right. They could have saved me the money of pulling the teeth out.

• 1:00:53Rich Roll?

  You could sue the guy, and he could pay for your dental work. How's that for conflict?

• 1:01:08Rich Roll?

  What you bring up really kind of dovetails nicely into something that I wanted to get into with you, which is this idea of compassion and how it relates to masculinity. You know, we live in a culture where compassion isn't exactly considered the most manly of traits,

• 1:01:28Rich Roll?

  especially if you wear it on your sleeve to the extent that you do. And I know you have a lot of opinions on this, and you know, the sort of walk that you walk.

• 1:01:40Rich Roll?

  And I look at it like a great strength, you know, like a great inner stillness. You know, if you look at the greatest leaders in history, you know, they're not the malevolent dictators. They're the benevolent, powerful ones, the ones that know when to exercise their strength, but just as much know how to exercise restraint and show that compassion, which distinguishes them from, you know, the rest of the group. You know, where do you, like, how do you imagine this?

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Well, for me, I come at it from two different angles. One is my own personal experience dealing with my depression and dealing with my shame. I mean, the core of my personality is based on shame.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  And what it looks like is this.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  Compassion as opposed to, or self compassion as opposed to self esteem, which is what we're taught, we're supposed to have. You want to have high self esteem. The metric of a high functioning person is that they have high self esteem. People with low self esteem are low functioning. So our goal is to build up your self esteem. In fact, there's an entire child rearing movement over the past 15, 20 years about raising kids with high self esteem. Like, there are no losers, everybody's a winner. Nobody wins the race. We're going to give every child in the race a number one. So they're all number one, they all get a medal. Because we don't want to hurt their self esteem.

• 1:05:14Rich Roll?

  Right. And I'm not so sure how I feel about all of that.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Well, we're learning now, we're looking at the data 20 years later, 15 years later.

• 1:05:20Rich Roll?

  I don't know that's serving anybody.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  It's not serving them. Because self esteem is not the answer. Because self esteem is very fragile. People love you when you're up. You love yourself when you're up. But what happens when you're down? What happens when suddenly you lose a tooth?

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  What happens when you lose your job? What happens when you lose a spouse? How do you deal with challenge? Suddenly, your self esteem can go through the floor.

• 1:05:46Rich Roll?

  It's contingent esteem.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:05:48Rich Roll?

  It's contingent on externalities going your way.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Yep. So I think it's really problematic that we base our identity or our value on those external valuations from others. So self compassion, on the other hand, is simply about just accepting and choosing and allowing whatever is. Whatever it is. Okay, I'm overweight? Great. I allow that, I accept it, I choose it. Doesn't mean I want to be fat, or I want to have no teeth. It's not about that. Like, I'm just going to sit here and do nothing. No, but it's first about allowing that this is your reality. This is the reality you have right now. So let's allow it. Let's accept it. Because the moment we accept it and get present to it, then we can actually take action inside of it.

• 1:06:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  But if we're fighting it, and we're shaming ourselves, and we don't have high self esteem, we have low self esteem, and we see the gap between where we are and where we want to be again, we're not going to get there, because we're going to say, I can't do that. I can't bridge that gap. But with self compassion and taking those tiny little steps and saying, yeah, you don't want to get out of bed and a lot of people would call you pathetic. The only thing you can do right now is pull back the covers. That's pathetic. You're a loser. Instead of saying that, instead of going down that route, which is the root of self esteem, external valuation, I go the route of, well, let's just pull back the covers and feel okay about it. Let's start there and see where we can go.

• 1:07:19Rich Roll?

  But if you're speaking to somebody who is in that place of low self esteem and low functionality and, you know, in that dire state, how do you begin to transition somebody like that into what you're talking about?

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I do this as a coach quite a bit. I start with getting them to talk to themselves in a compassionate way. Because most people are beating themselves up and they just come at me with a barrage of negative things about themselves. And I just accept everything they say. Yep, okay, yep, okay, you're this, oh, great, that's okay. You know, you're overweight, that's okay. You live with your mom and you're 60, that's okay. You do this, that's okay. You don't brush your teeth, that's okay. It's all okay.

• 1:08:05Rich Roll?

  That's very different from a more traditional, conventional approach would be, which would be something along the lines of, stop telling yourself that. Like coming at it from an aggressive, like, why are you, you know, you realize like the more you say that about yourself, the more that's what you bring into your life. Like you're creating this reality for yourself and sort of brow beating somebody into.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Rich Roll?

  And I think that just fuels the problem.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:08:30Rich Roll?

  I mean, I've tried that approach with.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  It doesn't work. It doesn't work. You know, stop being so negative. Stop taking yourself so seriously. Dude, look at the positive, be grateful, practice gratitude. And when people express, again, these platitudes.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  They're not really present to the experience of the person that they're talking to. So they're basically dismissing what the person is feeling and dismissing what the person is saying. So the first thing that I do is I go in and say, "It's okay. Whatever you're saying, it's okay." I don't judge you. You might judge yourself, other people might judge you, but I don't. I accept you exactly as you are and I embrace you and I love you exactly as you are, where you are right now. Because this is where we're gonna start. We're gonna start right here at the start line. We're not gonna start 10 miles into the race, we're not gonna start at the finish line. Because that's what people wanna do. They wanna manifest the finish line right now. I'm gonna do law of attraction to manifest the finish line into my life right here. And I'm like, "No, no, we're gonna go back to the start."

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  And we're actually gonna start there. And we're gonna run the whole race. And it's gonna be tough to run the whole race. It's not gonna be pleasant, but we're gonna do it. And maybe it's a double Ironman that we're gonna be running and it's gonna take a long time. But we're gonna get started and before you know it, we are gonna be done. So, and the thing that I experience with people is that when I accept them and I don't judge them and they keep questioning me, "Really? That doesn't bother you? You don't think I'm a loser? You don't think I'm pathetic?" It's like, "No, I don't. I think you're amazing." "But I do this, yeah, and that's okay. And I still think you're amazing." "And you know, but I haven't exercised in five years. Yeah, I get it. It's okay. Still think you're amazing."

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  And it's just getting them to see that they don't have to beat themselves up. They can actually embrace who they are. So again, back to the studies, back to the data on this. When you tell yourself to just stop saying that, stop thinking that, stop being so negative. There's something in psychology called ironic rebound. An ironic rebound is this: Stop thinking about a white elephant. Right, well, of course, that's all you can think about. And we know that's all you can think about is the white elephant. You know, they've done numerous studies on this. So if you tell someone to stop being negative, stop thinking about the negative, what are they gonna do? They're gonna think about it more. Because there's actually two areas in the brain that are processing thinking. One is looking out for the threat.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Because if you tell yourself that something is a threat, okay, these negative thoughts you're having, they are a threat to your well-being, so you need to stop having them. So part of your brain is constantly on the lookout for these threats. And in order to be on the lookout, it has to keep them in its focus.

• 1:11:12Rich Roll?

  It's also looking for evidence to support whatever that story is that you're telling yourself.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  Exactly, because it's like, ooh, danger. Okay, these negative thoughts are a danger, so let's keep them in mind so we can recognize them. So it's always processing that thought.

• 1:11:28Rich Roll?

  But if you say conversely, think about a gray elephant. Instead of stop thinking about this, but do this, something that is an affirmative action.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Affirmative action, exactly.

• 1:11:40Rich Roll?

  Will be, you know, a switch.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  Yep. But affirmative action that accepts the state that you're beginning in. That accepts your present state. Like, okay, first, let's acknowledge the state that you're in. I'm waking up and I don't want to get out of bed. Let's acknowledge that. Let's not shame ourselves for it. Let's not say, I should be this and I should be that, but this is where I am. This is how I feel. Okay, great, that's where we're gonna start. I'm not gonna tell you to stop thinking about how pathetic you are. I'm simply gonna get you to pull back the covers.

• 1:12:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:12:10Rich Roll?

  What I love about that is that that's the real work. You know, if somebody says, I want to run a marathon. Well, that's fine.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  That's a concept.

• 1:12:19Rich Roll?

  Either they will or they won't. And when they do, if they haven't addressed whatever is fueling that desire, whatever self-image issue is going on or what have you, they're gonna cross that finish line and sink into a depression because it didn't solve that problem.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Now they need to run an ultra marathon.

• 1:12:35Rich Roll?

  Right, then.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Or an obstacle course.

• 1:12:38Rich Roll?

  It's no different from, you know, oh, when I get that car, you know, or when I get that house. Listen, you know, living in Hollywood, it's like you see that every day. I know so many incredibly wealthy people that are miserable and they can't get off the habit trail of chasing that thing of, if I just close that deal, or if I just, you know, this movie happens, or if I get, you know, if I can take my beautiful house and upgrade it to this house, then it will. And they know, they know. And, you know, I know intellectually that's not the solution, but you can't get off that train.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Yep. And there's something else we now know from modern neuroscience. Dopamine is the chemical of desire.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  And when we look at people that have things that we want, dopamine is produced. When we look at ads, in LA, you're surrounded by billboards advertising.

• 1:13:32Rich Roll?

  You live in the one state where they don't allow, they don't allow billboards. So you're in sensory overload being here. Your dopamine must be going crazy.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I don't watch TV. So, you know, I'm not really present to the advertising culture that really informs most of America. So when you're looking at those billboards and looking at the magazines and looking at the advertisements on TV, what they're doing, they have neuroscientists working for these companies, ad agencies, all have PhDs in psychology and neuroscience working for them. There's not an ad agency out there that doesn't have PhDs of the mind on staff, because they know how to trigger desire. They know how to produce dopamine in somebody's mind, because they know that if they show certain images, and they do all kinds of tests, like which image is going to produce the most dopamine. And they actually have people wired up. They're actually, you know,

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  testing their brains to see, okay, is it this image or is it this one? Okay, it's that one. Let's run the ad with that image in there. Because we know that when people see that image, they're going to be filled with dopamine, which is going to cause them to desire things. But there's a problem with dopamine. And dopamine is essentially the chemical of addiction as well. Dopamine promises a reward and doesn't deliver it. And that is addiction. And we now know that basically, it's not that there are, you know, we have an advertising addiction. There are different levels of addiction in the mind. Some are much, much more extreme than others. But it's all fueled by dopamine. And people basically

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  get addicted to having more and more and more and more. And they can't stop, because they're surrounded by these really powerful stimuli that hijack your brain. They're designed to hijack your brain. They're very smart people designing images to hijack your brain. And it works.

• 1:15:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it works very well. I mean, look at, you know, look at, a perfect example is the iPhone 6.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Rich Roll?

  Which is a beautiful phone. I definitely want it.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Of course. Dopamine is flowing when you see those ads.

• 1:15:38Rich Roll?

  I have a perfectly functional iPhone right now.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  It's not good enough anymore.

• 1:15:41Rich Roll?

  The iPhone 6 does a few, I'm like, oh, but the camera's so much better, you know?

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  And you can do Wi-Fi calling with the iPhone 6.

• 1:15:49Rich Roll?

  That's right, right, all these things. And I'll just loop that, you know?

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:15:54Rich Roll?

  And I don't need it.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:15:56Rich Roll?

  You know, I don't need that. But how do you, you know, how do you have the awareness and the wherewithal to hit the brakes on something like that? It's very powerful. And listen, you know, I have an incredibly addictive personality. Like, I'm primed for anything that's going to trigger that dopamine response. You know? It doesn't have to be alcohol or drugs. It can be any number of things. So you have to be incredibly vigilant to find ways to extract yourself out of that. You know, we pulled the plug on our cable TV.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:16:28Rich Roll?

  We still, you know, we didn't even have, we had, we had internet here, but until like six months ago, because we're in this rural kind of section, they didn't have DSL. So we had really slow, like, it was almost like dial-up speed. So you could send an email, but like, if you wanted to stream a Netflix show, like, forget it, right? And we lived that way for a long time. And we pulled the plug on the cable primarily because we were noticing how it was impacting our young girls. And it's just, you could see the difference in the behavior. And so we made that decision, and I was not happy about it. And I went through like a withdrawal, like, you know, I need my TV, you know? And now I don't think about it. I still watch stuff on Netflix. Now we have DSL, we have decent internet here, and, you know, we'll watch documentaries on Netflix.

• 1:17:13Rich Roll?

  And if there's something I want to watch, I'll download it on iTunes or whatever. But my relationship to that machine is very different. You know, it's not, it's not really the addictive kind of go-to thing to check out that it, that it used to be. But it's made me much more conscious and aware of how profound its pull is.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that I've started practicing, and this is a tool that I've learned from modern neuroscience studies, whenever I feel that dopamine desire coming in, I pause for a moment. And this, it takes practice. This is, it's a muscle that you can build, you know? It's not an instant fix. But I pause, I stop, and I say, okay, what is it you're feeling right now? What are the physical sensations that you're feeling? Because I can feel myself being drawn to something. And, okay, what is it? Where is it in the body? What does it feel like? And what, what is your brain telling you right now? Like, what desire is it promising? Okay, is it real? Have you had this thing before?

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  And if you have had that thing, does it deliver on the desire promised? And the answer is almost always no. So, once I get present to that, first, what am I physically experiencing? So that gets me out of my thoughts for a moment and into my body. I'm now using like a mindfulness practice, like tuning in, checking in with everything. And then, okay, what is my brain telling me I'm gonna be rewarded with? And is it true? And if I think about it for just a second, it's like, you know what? Yeah, I did that before and I actually felt worse after.

• 1:18:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  And then boom, it's off.

• 1:18:51Rich Roll?

  You think it through, you think it's through, all the way through its conclusion. And that's another thing you learn in sobriety is when you have a craving comes up, like, oh, man, it would be so great to like, go to that, go to the beach and crack a beer and, you know, just what's wrong with that? You know, like, there's nothing wrong with that. I think I could probably handle that. But then you think it, like, think it through past that, like, what's gonna happen after that? Then you're gonna feel lousy that you did that. Then you're gonna beat yourself up, like, oh, you ruined your sobriety. You threw away all this time for that. And then you're gonna walk around with this craving and maybe you won't drink for a week or a month or six months, but you probably will again because you cracked the seal on that.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  And you're trying not to think about it.

• 1:19:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and like, nothing really bad hap- you know, it's like, and I know that's not headed in a good direction, you know? So it's thinking it past the event that's triggering you to the aftermath of that.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50Rich Roll?

  And trying to sit with that and experience that. That usually snaps me out of that. But, the exception.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:19:57Rich Roll?

  Exercise?

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:58Rich Roll?

  Going running. How does that fit into it? Like, this sort of wanting this kind of dopamine release experience that you get from going out on your 20-mile run?

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  Well, desire is very different than reward. See, we used to-

• 1:20:15Rich Roll?

  See, that delivers on the promise.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  It delivers on the promise. Like, the dopamine can get you out the door, but there are endogenous opiates in the brain. And we have opiate receptors in the brain because we actually produce them. Endogenous means that our brain produces them. So we have endogenous opiates and serotonin and oxytocin, all which make us feel good and rewarded. So the dopamine tells you to do something, but then it doesn't deliver on the promise. But these other chemicals can. And running helps. Runner's high is basically these endogenous opiates in the brain. And serotonin and oxytocin. There's all kinds of feel-good chemicals that get released in the brain when you run. And man, am I high on life when I'm running. So I can start that day in bed, not wanting to get out, saying, it's too cold, I'm miserable.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  What's the point? But then suddenly there I am, running for two hours in the snow below zero. And I'm having the time of my life. Because now I've got these other chemicals coursing through me. And it's like, what depression?

• 1:21:14Rich Roll?

  Well, you're just an addict.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm in.

• 1:21:17Rich Roll?

  You know? I mean, do people throw that at you?

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, they do. But for me, it's not that I have to run. It's not something I have to do. But I also, I don't think that human beings were meant to sit. In fact, we have a lot of data to support this now. We're not meant to sit and do nothing all day. We are designed to be physically active. So it's not like there are people that, you know, if you exercise several hours a day, you're an addict. It's like, actually, our bodies are designed to move for hours a day. That's what they're designed for. It's the people that are not moving for several hours a day that are the extreme, that are abnormal physiologically. But culturally, it seems like the people that are active are the ones that are abnormal.

• 1:22:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  And they're actually just functioning the way the body was meant to function. Doesn't mean you need to train for hours every day, but you need to be physically moving around.

• 1:22:09Rich Roll?

  Moving around.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and not just sitting all day.

• 1:22:11Rich Roll?

  So back to this idea of compassion. I want to kind of shine that spotlight on, away from self-compassion in the individual and shine it more on, like, the movement.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:25Rich Roll?

  The sort of plant-based movement. And I think we touched on this when we talked previous, but, you know, there's, there seems to be a certain lack of compassion in the plant-based world. Or maybe it's just, maybe it's just diet wars in general. You know, sort of what camp do you fall in? Whether it's Mediterranean, or paleo, or low carb, or high carb, or all the subcultures, you know, that are underneath the plant-based umbrella. The 80-10-10, or the... You know, I don't know, the David Wolf avocado, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. There's a lot of bickering and there's a lot of dissonance there.

• 1:23:06Rich Roll?

  And it can be, I sort of choose to kind of exempt myself from all of that because I find that it's a lot of people who are already converted arguing amongst themselves about what's right and who's better. And I'm more concerned about the average person who's out there struggling, who, you know, is very far from even being part of this world to begin with and trying to connect with those people and show them that maybe they can be healthier through doing a few simple things. But it gets, it's, I guess it's, you know, it's frustrating or disappointing when I, when I see all that. And I don't, I don't always know how to manage it. Like there was this whole thing with the Woodstock Fruit Festival and there was a lot of arguing going on. Between camps and all that. Were you at the, you were, did you go this year?

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, so. And, and a lot of that, it just, it upsets me, you know, I don't know, I don't know what to think about all that. So I'm interested in your perspective.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  Well, there's a couple of ways to look at this. Again, I always go back to the science. And one of the things that people really experience, first of all, when you change your diet, there's many reasons to go vegan. It's not just one reason. Not everybody does it for health reasons. A lot of people do it for animal advocacy, animal rights, but they don't eat a healthy vegan diet. I'm vegan, but as long as I eat all the vegan junk food in the world, I'm, I'm good. I just care about the animals. So there's compassion for other, but not really compassion for self because still eating a standard American diet, just in a plant-based form. And now that, you know, these great restaurants, Veggie Grill and Native Foods, which are amazing, I'm glad they're there, but there's a lot of vegan junk food.

• 1:24:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a double-edged sword. There's never been more vegan alternatives available, but there's a lot of processed crap out there too that tastes really good and is great for helping people make a transition. But it's very easy to fall prey to eating a very unhealthy vegan diet.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  And thinking that you're healthy because now you're vegan. So, you know, saying, "I'm vegan and therefore I'm healthy." Well, not necessarily. You can be a really unhealthy vegan, and I was.

• 1:25:08Rich Roll?

  Right, that's part of your story.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  For quite some time, yeah. So, back to the data and compassion. So people that become vegan for health reasons and they have a physical transformation, as you've experienced, as I've experienced. They want to tell everybody, and most people don't want to listen. So they have to talk to other vegans. And they're excited because I had this transformation. And so they seek other people out who've also had a transformation. And they really, they bond. And it's a really strong bond that forms. And I've seen this, especially in the raw food world. Because it's even more isolating, or, you know, considered extreme to be a raw foodist. So you really need to find allies to support you. So you really seek out your kind. And there's a self-righteousness, or a group righteousness that forms.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  Like, we're better than everybody else. We're superior. You know, we're the only ones making the right choice, and everybody else is doing it wrong. Even the vegans are doing it wrong if they're not raw. Or if you're not 80, 10, 10, then you're not doing raw food right. Or, you know, there's all this hierarchy that forms. And we know that oxytocin is the chemical in the brain that causes the bond with other people. And it can be a child bonding with its mother. Or it can be two raw foodists bonding together because they share similar diet experiences. And they're grateful that they now have somebody to talk about it with. And, you know, put up pictures of their bananas on Instagram and Facebook together. "Look at my bananas, look at my bananas."

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Well, the Army did some studies with oxytocin a little while back. Because they have a real problem now with the guys in the ground bonding with each other. Because, again, it's the me generation. So how do you get people to fight for each other? How do you get them to bond and work together as a team? They're having a real challenge with this.

• 1:26:55Rich Roll?

  Right, when everyone's walking around with a t-shirt that says, "It's my world, and yours."

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. And if you don't like it, well, then you can go, you know, do something with it. And, you know, so how do you take that culture and make them bond? So they, we have an oxytocin nasal spray now that is given to mothers who are not bonding with their children. They can spray it in their nose, and suddenly the mom bonds with the child. It's that fast. So the Army started spraying the troops with oxytocin nasal spray and seeing what happened. And guess what? They bonded. So they had this, you know, really cohesive group forming. And they're like, "Yay, okay, we've got it figured out." But there was one side effect. They bonded with their peers, but they were much, much, much more likely to be violent

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  and aggressive with anyone that was not part of their group.

• 1:27:47Rich Roll?

  That's like some serious primate brain.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:50Rich Roll?

  Stuff going on.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  So it's like the mom, mama bear and baby bear. If you run into mama and baby, mama is not going to be happy.

• 1:27:58Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  And she's going to pop a cap or pop a claw in your ass.

• 1:28:01Rich Roll?

  Right, the oxytocin is running hot and fast.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Because the oxytocin is like, I love my baby and I want to kill everybody else. So it's this protective mechanism, like protect your group and attack everybody else. So yeah, this really primitive primate brain. And you know, oxytocin, we think it's the love chemical. Yeah, it's the love chemical for people you're close to. It's the hate chemical for people you're not close to.

• 1:28:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and just extrapolate that out to religious groups, political groups, any kind of group affiliation, and you can see that at play.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:33Rich Roll?

  That's interesting.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  So you know, that's not the end of the story. It's simply about having an awareness. We are not simply the dictates of our brain chemistry. You know, it's a part of it. It causes tendencies. It can cause certain feelings to arise in us. But again, that's where the mindfulness practice comes in. Like, okay, there's an emotion rising in me. There's a feeling rising in me. There's a judgment towards you rising in me. Okay, let's just notice that. Let's not act on it. Let's not speak on it. Let's just notice it. Let's see if there's anything valid there, or is it simply a chemical in my brain right now that's causing a certain reactive tendency?

• 1:29:09Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  And am I going to be immediately reactive? Or am I going to pause, take a time out and say, wait a minute, is this really, is this necessary? Did this person really do anything wrong? Or are they simply them? You know, us versus them. So I think you're seeing a lot of this in the vegan movement. You know, you have people that are really bonding closely and hating everybody else. So I think that's part of it. But also, we have this, again, you know, primate reactive mind that simply wants to make others wrong if they don't share our belief systems. And, you know, it's all part of the tribal nature of humanity. You know, we grew up in groups of, you know, 20 to 50.

• 1:29:55Rich Roll?

  Right, small groups of people.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  Small groups, that's what we really thrive in. So now you put us in a very large group, and we're always trying to find our small group inside of that. And then everybody else is not the group, so let's attack them and vilify them.

• 1:30:06Rich Roll?

  So being a member of, you know, the raw food movement, you must have people trying to rally you to say this or that, or, you know, take a stand, or, you know, whether it's against or for, how do you confront that when approached?

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  I have consistently, or continuously, pulled myself off of the pedestal anytime somebody tries to put me in that position. "Okay, Tim, you're an authority, you need to speak on this. You need to support this group, you know, demonize that group." And it's like, "No, no, no." The only group that I identify with is humanity. And it's about just pulling back, and pulling back, and pulling back. Pulling away from race, pulling away from religious affiliation, pulling away from everything until the only thing that you can see is, "You're human." Okay, what do we have in common? Well, we're human. And I think that's the most important thing to have in common. And what do humans have? Well, they have brains. And brains are challenging. Brains are not easy to live with. So the fact that you are a human being with a brain

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  makes me feel compassionate for you because I know you have struggle as well. Because there's not a human being alive with a brain that does not have struggle. So that's where I connect with people now. So I don't even really, I don't use the word "raw" to define myself anymore. I don't use the word "vegan." I'm simply a compassionate human being, and that's it. Now, do I eat a plant-based diet that's predominantly fresh fruits and vegetables? Yes. That's not my identity. That's what I put in the gas tank. My identity is a compassionate human being. That's it. It's the only group that I want to identify with.

• 1:31:41Rich Roll?

  It's a hard road to get there, though, because I think we're also hardwired, and maybe it's part of this oxytocin component, to, like you said, identify with a group. We want to be aligned with a team. You know, who's your team? Is it the Green Bay Packers? Is it, you know, whatever it is? We want to... There's something inside of us that craves that.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:03Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:32:04Rich Roll?

  And I think that's a big part why spectator sports are a huge thing. Like, you see it played out in many different incarnations in our culture. But to be able to say, "Oh, I feel that pull, but I'm going to, you know, take a different tact."

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's the muscle that you have to work. It starts with awareness. It starts with noticing the rise in you. Okay, I'm a Yankees fan. Here comes a Red Sox fan. And immediately, I see their hat, and I get all, like, in a... It's like, ooh, okay. Oh, I'm feeling something right now. All right. What is that? Okay. Do I really need to call them a name or remark? Or can I just feel that and let it go? Like, because underneath the hat is a human being.

• 1:32:47Rich Roll?

  Now, you're just a threat to masculinity in general, right? How can you even call yourself a man?

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  Right? No team affiliation. Come on. It's blasphemy.

• 1:32:58Rich Roll?

  It is tricky when you try to signal men with this message. You know, it's not a message that is comfortable for a lot of men to even talk about, let alone really embrace.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  And I get attacked. Man, do I get attacked.

• 1:33:15Rich Roll?

  Well, YouTube commenters are the worst. On YouTube or beyond YouTube?

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  On YouTube and email.

• 1:33:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  And here's how I deal with that. Because, again, if I'm going to call myself a compassionate man, well, I better act like one as well. Saying it is one thing. Being it is very different, especially when the heat is on. So if somebody attacks me on YouTube, and you wouldn't believe the comments, I'll refrain from using the language, you know, reflected at me, but...

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  I don't respond with attacks. I don't call people names. I want to. I have that urge. I feel the emotion rising in me. I just want to attack. You know, and I can. I'm good at that. You know, if I really want to use my intellect to humiliate someone, I'm really good, but that's not what I'm committed to. That's not my commitment in the world. It's not what I'm up to. So I pause. I feel it rise. Breathe in. I notice it. I breathe it out. Yep, I'm angry. Oh, I'm okay. I'm I'm jacked right now. Okay, just feel it. Feel it. Breathe it. Okay, notice it. And let it go. All right, don't fight it. Don't try to resist it. Just deal with it for a little while and let it go. Most emotions only last for like 10 to 20 seconds unless you think about them.

• 1:34:23Rich Roll?

  So do you generally not engage with commenters at all? Or are you selectively engaged?

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  I do engage. And the way that I engage is with questions. So if somebody calls me a name or tells me that, you know, I'm this or that, I will respond by saying, okay, you know, why did, you know, why did you leave that comment? What is your intention? What did you hope to gain? Is it that you're trying to make me feel bad? Are you trying to elevate your status for others who might read that comment? You know, are you getting street cred by knocking me down? Like, what are you getting at here? Really, what is it for you?

• 1:34:57Rich Roll?

  What is the reaction to that?

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  And you'd be surprised with the reactions. People are stunned. They're like, well, he didn't fight back. You know, he's just asking me questions. And just like I did with the fight that I broke up on Mount Greylock. I asked the guys questions. You know, what is it that you're feeling? What is it that you need? What is it that you want? So I ask them, you know, what do you really want? And they may call me another name. And then I ask them, okay, well, clearly I've done something that's upset you. So what is it about what I'm doing that upsets you? What does that bring up in you? What is it triggering? And then they start to think. And maybe they respond. Well, you know, guys that talk about this stuff are weak. So I ask another question. Did someone tell you that you were weak because you had an emotional experience? Did you cry and somebody called you a name? Did your dad say something or a coach say something to you because you expressed vulnerability? Like, what happened? Where is this coming from?

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  And you would be surprised at the conversations that, you know...

• 1:35:47Rich Roll?

  You're doing like a Vulcan mind meld right now, right?

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  And I've turned people. And not that that's my goal, but again, I really, you know, it's not easy because I have the, I'm a man. I have testosterone. I get violent. And it's like, ooh, wow, I really want to do some damage right now. Breathe in. Feel it. Acknowledge that. Okay, yep. All right, violence. Uh huh.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  And let it out. And now ask a question. And sometimes I will, I'll wait a couple hours before I ask the question.

• 1:36:16Rich Roll?

  Well, that's always a good idea.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  I'll walk away.

• 1:36:19Rich Roll?

  You should never do, you should never respond in the heat of the moment, ever. I don't get that much sort of troll-like, you know, behavior on my stuff, but occasionally. And I had an experience, actually, even yesterday. I posted on my Facebook page, it was an article that Neil Barnard had written about the impact of, of the beef industry on the environment. And it was pretty straightforward stuff, and it was consistent with this documentary conspiracy that I'm involved in, and it was relevant to share. And there were some really, there was, there was a lot of great comments, but there were some nutty ones there. And one guy in particular just came at me pretty hard, and I'm like, I don't get that much of that, I'm not that used to it. And I ignored it, and then I went, it was like four days ago or something like that.

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  And then yesterday, I was like, I'm gonna engage this guy, I wanna, I wanna see what happens, because I never do, I usually don't do that. And I do it very graciously, thank you for your comment, you know, I understand what you're saying, here's kind of where I'm coming from, it's very neutral and all of that. But some people, you know, they really are trolls, like, they're just gonna, they're just gonna go and go and go and go until you give up, you know? And this, I kind of went down the rabbit hole with this guy a little bit, and I did a good job of holding, holding an even keel with the whole thing, but it def, like, I can feel the emotion, you know, rising in me, like, this guy's not hearing what I'm trying to tell him, you know? He doesn't wanna hear it, so, he just want, he wants to have the engagement, he wants to have the dispute.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  So, if you're talking about the data, because you've got your data, they've got their data, you've got your opinion about the data, they've got their opinion about the data, and as long as it's a conversation about the data, not gonna get anywhere.

• 1:37:58Rich Roll?

  But it rarely is. When it's in that context, it usually isn't.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  So, that, that's why you go underneath, like, where is this coming from? What is your intention? What do you want? How have you been hurt? What, how is this affecting you? And really getting to the bottom, and suddenly they feel taken care of, wow, somebody's listening to me? Somebody cares about me? What?

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  And you'd be surprised at how they often, they'll back off, or they'll apologize, or, you know, sometimes it takes 20 emails, 20, you know, responses before you really get in there, and like, what is it that you're really about?

• 1:38:29Rich Roll?

  Especially on YouTube.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it works.

• 1:38:32Rich Roll?

  Why is YouTube the worst when it comes to, is it because you can be more anonymous there?

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  You're anonymous, you're, you're sitting, it's not real. It's like, the difference between facing somebody eye to eye and getting in a fight with a knife, or sitting in a room in Florida controlling a drone that's dropping bombs in Syria. You know, you don't have to see the, the human suffering.

• 1:38:55Rich Roll?

  But that's true of all the, that's true of all the social media, I mean, all the different platforms we're commenting.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  It's removed from interaction.

• 1:39:01Rich Roll?

  Something about, something about YouTube is unique as compared to Facebook, or even Twitter. I don't know what it is, but it seems to really attract much more aggressive.

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  I think because it's more voyeuristic. Whereas Facebook, you have your page, and you're presenting your life, but the vast majority of trollers on YouTube don't post a single video, they just watch other people's videos.

• 1:39:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  So I think it's more voyeuristic.

• 1:39:24Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Whereas Facebook is about, here's my life, here's your life, you're my friend, or you're not my friend. But with YouTube, it's more like, I'm gonna watch other people live their lives, and talk about life, and I'm just gonna...

• 1:39:34Rich Roll?

  And toss bombs.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  Toss bombs at them. But you, you have no idea who I am, I'm not even gonna post a profile photo. You know, I am nobody.

• 1:39:42Rich Roll?

  Uh huh, that's interesting. So, what are you doing here in Los Angeles?

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  Ah, I came out here for a race that I decided not to do. Again, you know, and as I move forward athletically, and I don't know where you are at this point athletically, but, you know, I've won a lot of really big races. Most of them I won between the ages of 40 and 44, but now I'm, you know, 46, and dealing with an injury, so I'm still really, really fit. But I don't want to enter a race, not do well, and then people say, ah, the diet doesn't work. So I want to leave the data where it was. Like, I've got all these, you know, US championships and runner of the year titles.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  If I continue racing now, I may actually do that a disservice.

• 1:40:32Rich Roll?

  That's an interesting thing to explore. It's something that I'm grappling with right now. You know, there's, there's a big part of me that feels like I still have some stones unturned and some things that I would, you know, I don't feel like I've had my best race at Ultraman. You know, I feel like there are certain challenges out there that I think I can conquer, and I'm, I'm attracted to, to trying to see if I could do those things. But at the same time, counterbalancing that against what my priorities are, you know? And now, like, you know, I don't know that I really have anything to prove. And what gets me excited and out of bed in the morning is trying to figure out ways to be of service in this movement.

• 1:41:17Rich Roll?

  How can I help people? And that's what really gets me enthusiastic about my life. And as a result of kind of showing up on a daily basis for this process, I've been given opportunities. And those have been great avenues to explore to continue to spread this message and help people get healthier. And if I make that decision to, let's say, train for Ultraman, that's a huge time commitment.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that you can't do this.

• 1:41:43Rich Roll?

  And like yourself, I'm not going to show up at a race half-cocked. You know, I'm not the guy who can go and run a marathon every weekend and just do it with the people. Like, if I'm showing up at a race, I want to be able to look anybody in the eye and say, I did everything I could to prepare. I'm ready to go. I'm 100%. And in order to do that, a lot of other things in my life have to get sort of pushed aside temporarily or don't get the attention that maybe they deserve. And so I'm weighing the consequences of those right now. And if I'm out on a five-hour ride, is that the best way to serve this message? Maybe it is. Maybe not right now. Maybe like when I'm 50, it is. I don't know, you know? But right now, like, podcasting is...

• 1:42:28Rich Roll?

  Ben fantastic. It's a huge time, you know, the amount of time that I was training, I'm podcast, you know, I'm doing, I'm just channeling that energy in different directions. And I don't know that I know how, you know, it's all gonna work out, but I, you know, I know what that feels like. I know where you're coming from with that.

• 1:42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've already got the credibility that got you the podcast. You did the work. You, you put in the effort and the time, training and competing, established yourself. Now here you are. It's, it's given you the platform to speak from and, you know, same with me. I did the work. I've got the platform.

• 1:43:00Rich Roll?

  I didn't do it to get a platform, by the way. Like, you know what I mean?

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  Well, you just did it.

• 1:43:04Rich Roll?

  Like, I was doing it to do it. And now, for some bizarre reason, I have a platform, but, you know, I'm enjoying the platform. So, anyway, sorry I interrupted.

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  Good. No, no, that's a great point. See, and that's where you and I are different, and yet the same, because I did it to get a platform.

• 1:43:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:43:20Speaker 01

  But now that I have the platform, I feel kinda strange about that. It's like I don't wanna be the guy in a platform anymore. It's like I got the platform, it's like, ooh, I don't think it's about a platform.

• 1:43:30Rich Roll?

  Well, platform maybe has a pejorative ring to it.

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  It's not a soapbox.

• 1:43:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's about, you have, you have an ability, you have access to people's ears and eyes right now. And that carries a responsibility with it.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you know, as far as the, the training goes, like, I am still training, just I have to train differently due to my injury. But for me, it's an opportunity. I always multitask when I train. I listen to lectures and audiobooks. So, and as I'm driving around LA as well, I will listen to a book every other day, like a full-length book every other day, or I'll listen to five or six lectures, maybe four to six lectures a day. Used to be biochemistry and physiology through iTunes University, iTunes U. So...

• 1:44:16Rich Roll?

  iTunes U is amazing.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 1:44:18Rich Roll?

  Stanford's got tons of stuff.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  I've gone through so many courses at Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Yale. I went through a clinical nutrition program at the medical school at the University of Wisconsin, which was amazing. And I did that while running.

• 1:44:32Rich Roll?

  You know, it'd be cool if you could maybe after the show, give me a list of some of your favorites and I could put those up in the show notes so that people could access that directly.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll have to, when I get back and look at my computer, I can tell you what they are. But yeah, it's incredible what you can learn while you're training. So for me, if I'm going to be sitting at a desk doing research, well, I don't want to be sitting, I don't want to spend my day sitting. So for me, training is an opportunity, not just to get fit and get outside and get my, you know, those positive chemicals in the brain, but also it's an opportunity to learn something. And if I am going to be an advocate, I want to make sure that I'm current. I want to make sure that I'm not an expert, that my information is not outdated. So I want to know what the latest in neuroscience, the latest in psychology, the latest in nutrition, so that, or the latest studies in, you know, on diet and health.

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  Because, you know, we're getting new studies coming out all the time, so I have to keep up. So I'm just continually downloading things to my iPod and then going out into the university of adversity as I train, you know, in the mountains.

• 1:45:35Rich Roll?

  The university of adversity. I like that. That should actually be a real institution.

• 1:45:40Speaker 01

  It should. Let's do it, let's create it.

• 1:45:42Rich Roll?

  So you came out here to do a race that you didn't do, but now you've been hanging around. You were up north for a couple of days, right?

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  Well, I was going to go up north and I decided not to. I'm thinking of moving back to California from Vermont. I think my time in Vermont is done. I need to be around people that are, Vermont's full of great people. No, nothing wrong with Vermont, just that I like the excitement of California. People are here to make things happen, big things happen. And sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. So I think moving out here would give me a greater opportunity to spread this message and be much more impactful as I do that.

• 1:46:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we talked about that the other day, and I encourage you to do that. Plus, you don't have to worry about running in the snow anymore, right?

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  Well, I think I would miss it.

• 1:46:29Rich Roll?

  So, do you have, so it's, I mean, when we, what was that, a week ago when I ran into you? It seems like it's more of a cemented idea now than it was even a week ago.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's what the trip is. It's like, okay, let's come back to Cali and get a feel for it. Does it feel like home? Are there opportunities here? And, you know, I think that's important, not just for me, but for anyone. Like, you know, are you living in a place that really feels like home? And is it sourcing you? Is it supporting you? Because you can have dreams and you can have goals, but does the environment around you support those dreams and goals? Is it supporting your highest good? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. And if it isn't, I think you really need to take an inventory and address that. And maybe move.

• 1:47:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's no question that people are here to make things happen. And that can be a negative thing if you're not grounded.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  But I think you're very grounded, you're very conscious and aware, and you know what your mission is. And I think that sort of self-awareness and sense of self that you have, you know, sort of exonerates you from the negative pitfalls of being in Los Angeles in Hollywood.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's, it's interesting to see how I behave here as opposed to Vermont.

• 1:47:47Rich Roll?

  You, you notice your behavior changes?

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  I notice my behavior changes.

• 1:47:50Rich Roll?

  So give me a taste of that.

• 1:47:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's funny, I laugh at myself. For instance, running in Pasadena today, ran up Echo Mountain, which is really steep. It climbs, climb like 3,500 feet in three miles.

• 1:48:04Rich Roll?

  Where's the trailhead for that? I've never done that one.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  The end of Lake Avenue. So Lake Ave is like one of the main thoroughfares north, south in Pasadena. Take it all the way till it dead ends in Park.

• 1:48:13Rich Roll?

  There's the, the trailhead's right there.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  And the trailhead is right there.

• 1:48:15Rich Roll?

  Excellent, I'm gonna check that out.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  And, you know, seven years ago, when I used to live here, there was nobody on those trails, it was me. I was alone in the mountains here. Now, it was packed. So a lot has changed. So, you know, you're running along, or I'm running along, and there's a lot of beautiful women out there, it's LA. And I notice that my speed increases, you know? And I'm like running up a really steep mountain, I'm climbing 3,000 feet in three miles, and yet I feel that there's still that shame in me. That that's not good enough. Like, I'm already running up a mountain, a big one.

• 1:48:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  And there's a part of me that thinks, well, that's not going to be impressive enough. Let me do, oh, there's an attractive woman. Let me even pick up the pace more.

• 1:48:54Rich Roll?

  As I pass her.

• 1:48:56Speaker 01

  As I pass her.

• 1:48:56Rich Roll?

  Until she's out of sight.

• 1:48:57Speaker 01

  Until she's out of sight. So, you know, and I catch myself doing this, and it's the funniest thing, because again, you know, I've got that that core of shame in me.

• 1:49:04Rich Roll?

  So what you're really saying, though, is that this doesn't happen in Vermont?

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  It doesn't happen in Vermont.

• 1:49:08Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  Now, in Vermont, I just really don't care. I run at my pace. I train them. I do whatever. I don't care about what I'm wearing, or, you know, my teeth, or hair, or whatever else. Well, now, the teeth thing. But, um, yeah, I notice it more here, because you just, you can see it in people's eyes. You can see that they want to be noticed. They want you to be impressed somehow. And I'm sure you can feel this. You know, when I lived here, I felt it, but going back to Vermont, where nobody's trying to impress anybody.

• 1:49:36Rich Roll?

  And then coming back.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  And then coming back to LA, you really, just to hit you in the face, like, wow. Everybody's putting on a show. Not everybody. But, you know, a large portion of the population is trying to keep up, trying to be good enough. Because there's so much competition.

• 1:49:51Rich Roll?

  But what they don't realize is everyone's so self-obsessed that they're not noticing anyone else.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  They're not even noticing, no, they're not noticing how fast you can run up the mountain, because they're worried about how their ass looks.

• 1:50:01Rich Roll?

  They want to know what you think of them.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And, you know, another thing is, is like, I said to myself today, as I noticed that, it's like, wait a minute, Tim. Okay, first of all, all right, I see what you're up to. Just chill out, relax.

• 1:50:13Rich Roll?

  Doesn't she know that I'm a 10-time US Masters National Trail Champion? She needs to understand this.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  She needs to know. Let me make sure my calves are flexing the right way to really enhance the muscle as I go by her, you know. Whatever the crazy things that people do. I, you see guys walking around flexing their biceps, or flexing, you know, the push on a table as they lean in to flex their triceps. You see it all the time, whatever. So, you know, and I say to myself, okay. Even if she was impressed by what you just did, let's say she was. You're not stopping.

• 1:50:49Rich Roll?

  What does that mean?

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  Are you gonna stop and talk to her? Because if you want to run by her and impress her, well, that means you're not stopping, which means you're not gonna talk to her. So does it really matter what she thinks of you? Like, what are you doing?

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  No, it speaks to where you're at. Like, what is it that, inside of you, that feels the need to make sure that she notices you or is impressed by you? And what is lacking inside of you that still needs to be addressed and cultivated?

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  And again, that's an opportunity to practice self-compassion, which is what I do when I catch myself doing it. It's like, Tim, it's okay. You're insecure. I get it. I understand. And it's okay.

• 1:51:23Rich Roll?

  Right. And congratulations. You're a human being and you're a red-blooded male who saw a pretty girl on the trail. You know, it's like, I mean, you know, that's a natural reaction. So why would you beat yourself up for that? You're doing what every single guy would probably do.

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  And you know, the funniest thing is, Rich, I do get a lot of positive comments from men in my videos, but more often than not, I get positive comments from women who tell me that they are just so grateful to see a man being vulnerable. And what they're teaching me, what women are now teaching me, which is amazing, is that they're not really impressed by guys being tough and macho. What they're impressed by is vulnerability. What they're impressed by is a guy being authentic and being honest.

• 1:52:10Rich Roll?

  Well, because if you're willing to be vulnerable with another person, then that is a giant demonstration of your self-confidence.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, they see it as a sign of strength.

• 1:52:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're not threatened by sort of talking about something that you're not good at or a weakness, because your sense of self is not threatened by that. You're intact, you're respective. And I think that's a core strength that trumps, you know, whatever foible it is that you're actually talking about.

• 1:52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been a huge lesson for me. So as far as compassion, you know, emasculating men, it's actually doing the opposite. It's showing women that I believe that you're more of a man, because you're not afraid of your flaws. Again, you know, the fear of fear. I'm not afraid of my fear. Like, you know, what is a coward? Someone that's afraid of their fear. Where like, I'll go into battle and I'll be scared to death and I'll admit it. I'm scared, but I'm still going forward. I'm still gonna take the steps. I'm still gonna take the hits. I'm still gonna fall on my face, but I will get up and I'll keep moving, embarrassed or scared or not. I will not stop.

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  And you know, and women respond to that and men respond to that. It's like, wow, respect.

• 1:53:18Rich Roll?

  Okay. So the takeaway, Tim, is if you want to get chicks, be vulnerable. Is this what you're saying? Anathema.

• 1:53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you could look at it that way. Yeah, there is a takeaway there, but it's really.

• 1:53:30Rich Roll?

  I'm just kidding.

• 1:53:31Speaker 01

  I know, but it's, it's not a pick up line. It's simply, it's not that just other people are going to respond to you and give you what you really want to begin with. But you're also going to feel better about yourself. It's not just for them, but it's really about how you feel about yourself.

• 1:53:46Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. The main theme of this show is how to unlock, unleash, become your best, most authentic self, right? And so authenticity is huge, touchstone of this program and kind of, you know, informs all of these conversations and the guests that I choose to have on. But authenticity, you know, begins and ends with being honest with yourself and being honest with others about who you are, you know? And there's a lot of healing for a lot of people that has to take place before somebody can truly embrace that. So if somebody's listening and they're thinking, these are all fine concepts, but you know, I'm still, I'm sitting on my couch and I don't feel great about myself.

• 1:54:27Rich Roll?

  And I don't know, you know, even what the next action is to try to break this cycle that has been holding me back my whole life. Like, what are some words that you could share that might be helpful to people out there?

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  Well, the first step is to allow yourself to feel whatever it is that you're feeling and not to shame yourself for it. Either, there's two things that happen. People go into denial about what they're feeling or what their reality is, or they shame themselves for it. And the people in denial are actually harder to help. It's the people that are shaming themselves that are easier to help. So if somebody's really ashamed and beating themselves up, great, I've got an access point.

• 1:55:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because they're not. They know what their problem is.

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, they know what their problem is, but they're like, I know what my problem is and I just, yeah, I am the problem and I'm no good and therefore I have no value because I'm the problem.

• 1:55:18Rich Roll?

  What about somebody who is in denial?

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  Someone who is in denial, it's, again, it's about asking questions, you know, it's about, instead of just accepting them and embracing them and saying it's okay, like, bring it, throw me your worst and I will say it's okay. With somebody in denial, it's about, what I do on YouTube, asking those questions. Because anybody that's going to attack you clearly thinks that they're in a superior position or have a superior belief system, which is, you know, ridiculous. Nobody has a superior belief system, so that clearly tells me they're in denial somehow. They're cherry picking the data. They're a victim of confirmation bias or motivated reasoning in psychology. So I just ask questions, until I get to the bottom of it.

• 1:56:00Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. I mean, by definition, somebody who's in denial is somebody who doesn't believe that they need help, right? And I think transformation begins with breaking denial and accepting that, you know, there's work to be done.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:13Rich Roll?

  But until somebody's ready for that, you can't make somebody ready. You can't make somebody willing.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:56:20Rich Roll?

  You know, billions of manpower hours have been expended toiling, trying to get somebody to change who doesn't want to change.

• 1:56:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:29Rich Roll?

  And, you know, in codependent situations all over the world, in any, you know, all different kinds of shapes and forms, so, you know, I think it's about meeting people when they're ready. Because you can't, you can't make that transition for somebody to readiness.

• 1:56:47Speaker 01

  No, but you can plant seeds. And to me, the seeds are always in the form of a question.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  You know, I do this with the protein conversation. This is, you know, people come at me, clearly their diet is superior, clearly their physique is superior, at least clearly to them. I'm looking at them, it's like, I'm waiting, I'm not getting it, you know? But, you know, you're deficient in protein. And I ask a simple question, like, you know, well, what is protein? Please define protein for me. And some people know it's made of amino acids. Okay, well, what are the amino acids? Very few people know that. What are the essential amino acids? Fewer people know that. Okay, what do amino acids do in the body? Which, you know, what distinguishes one from the other? How do they operate? Very, very few people know this. And you start breaking it down, breaking it down, breaking it down, until they get to the point where they say, I guess I don't know.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  I don't know. So people have, denial is about a sense of certainty. I'm certain that this is the way. Whether it is or not, I'm certain that it is. I'm certain that I am better at driving than the vast majority of people. I'm certain that I could play football better than anybody on the field right there, because I'm yelling at the screen, telling them how they should do it. I'm certain that I have the answers. But clearly, the vast majority of people are simply average, and not above average, but most people want to think that they are. And that's the way the brain's wired. It's no fault of anyone. You know, I'm not judging anyone. It's the way the brain is set up to convince us that we're above average.

• 1:58:20Speaker 01

  But in these cases, by just exposing where the holes are in that certainty, you can get someone to kind of wake up and maybe, possibly, not necessarily, but possibly admit that they don't have all the answers, or that their certainty is a little shaky. It's on shaky foundations. If you push them, they will push back. And this is the whole, you know, compassion with vegans thing. Right. You know, if a vegan says, you're wrong for eating meat, well, the meat eater's gonna push back. And you're killing animals, well, you're killing plants. You know, there's gonna be pushback. But if you ask them questions, like what Casparycy is doing, or what Earthlings did, or what many of these other great documentaries are doing, they're simply like, okay, well, here's some information that maybe you don't know.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  So you're not necessarily asking a question, but you're presenting information that might...

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  Change that certainty. Maybe they're not going to be so certain anymore. And that's a seed that you can plant.

• 1:59:16Rich Roll?

  I think it's important to do that without an expectation of outcome.

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, no expectation.

• 1:59:21Rich Roll?

  Or any attachment to how the person is going to respond to that. I mean, usually in those situations, they still, you know, march off, you know, angry or whatever, because you're challenging their current belief system. But it's a seed, and maybe they'll reflect on that seed later at a time when they're ready to entertain a different idea.

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:40Rich Roll?

  And this isn't just about diet, and this is about

• 1:59:42Speaker 01

  About anything.

• 1:59:43Rich Roll?

  Anything.

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  Diet is the same conversation as any other challenge that we have.

• 1:59:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:59:47Speaker 01

  Between people. It's just, it's the same psychology.

• 1:59:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:59:52Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Well, you can get an airstream and move on to the

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:56Rich Roll?

  Move on to the, we'll set you up right over there.

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  Oh, the view here is incredible. I wish your audience could see the, I was, I was driving in looking at Saddle Peak. I'm like, wow.

• 2:00:07Rich Roll?

  Really blessed to be out here and, yeah, looking out at that mountain right over there. And it'd be nice to run up there right now.

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's dramatic. Such a dramatic landscape.

• 2:00:15Rich Roll?

  Yes, we are building our commune, so keep me posted.

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  And I'm not going to fix my teeth. I'm going to put that money into an airstream.

• 2:00:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  I'm going to be toothless in your backyard.

• 2:00:24Rich Roll?

  But living in a, living in a trailer.

• 2:00:27Rich Roll?

  Do you have a, well, it's going to start snowing in Vermont soon, right?

• 2:00:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've already had frost.

• 2:00:32Rich Roll?

  So let's, let's pick up sticks, man, and make this happen, right? Cool. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Hey, Rich, it's an absolute pleasure. And I just want to say that what you're doing is extraordinary. And I am so grateful that you have taken this on and that you're approaching it the way that you do. Every time that I hear you speak, I just hear such a, not only such an articulate voice, but a gentle voice. You know, you don't use your intelligence to attack.

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  Or to belittle people, you simply, you get people to gently engage in conversation. And that's so important and so valuable. And I'm really, really grateful for what you do and what you stand for.

• 2:01:14Rich Roll?

  Thank you, man. I appreciate that very much. Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not here to judge other people. I'm not here to tell anyone what they should or they shouldn't do. I'm here to share my experience and to share, you know, the, the, the experience of the guests that I, that I bring people on. I allow people the space to make their own decisions about what that means in their own life. And, you know, I kind of start every show with saying, you know, look, I'm going to have all these people on here. You're not going to agree with all these people, you know? Take what resonates with you, discard the rest. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Maybe next week, you know, you'll hear something that, that does work for you. So, you know, uh, it's been fun. It's been hard. It's been very gratifying though, man. And I, I'm excited to see, uh, you know, where it's all leading.

• 2:01:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:00Rich Roll?

  But it's good right now.

• 2:02:01Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 2:02:02Rich Roll?

  So cool. So thanks so much, man. You're an inspiration. I loved that conversation that we just had. There's so many, so much good stuff in there and I really appreciate it. And I think we really did go beyond the kale today.

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, right? Do we talk about kale at all?

• 2:02:15Rich Roll?

  I don't think we did, only using that phrase, beyond the kale. Cool. So if you're digging on Tim, the best way to connect with him is the Running Raw YouTube channel, right? And you're on, you're on Facebook.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  Running Raw on Facebook.

• 2:02:28Rich Roll?

  Running Raw on Facebook. Twitter is, it's Tim.

• 2:02:31Speaker 01

  I don't even know much.

• 2:02:32Rich Roll?

  You don't even know? Oh, you haven't been tweeting very much, have you?

• 2:02:34Speaker 01

  But if you go to runningraw.com.

• 2:02:36Rich Roll?

  I noticed you tweeted, you tweeted when we ran your show the other day, but your avatar is you with like really long hair. And I was like, didn't even look like you.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  Just before I left LA. So that's, that picture's like eight years old now.

• 2:02:46Rich Roll?

  Come on, man. You got to update that.

• 2:02:47Speaker 01

  I need to change that.

• 2:02:48Rich Roll?

  Cool. Uh, and are you speaking anywhere coming up or anything else you want to let people know about?

• 2:02:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, uh, going to be speaking October 11th at the Catskill Farm Animal Sanctuary.

• 2:02:59Rich Roll?

  Oh, cool.

• 2:02:59Speaker 01

  So there's two animal rescue places north of New York City, one in Woodstock and one in, uh, the Catskills, I think it's Catskill, New York. So I'm there October 11th. So if you're in the New York area, come on up, check that out. And then I'm going to be doing some talks up in the Bay Area and early November. Sacramento, San Francisco area and New Jersey in November. You can go to my website, runningraw.com and see the dates for that.

• 2:03:25Rich Roll?

  Excellent.

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  And hopefully back here in LA giving some talks too.

• 2:03:28Rich Roll?

  All right, man. I'm holding you to it.

• 2:03:29Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:03:30Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  Done deal.

• 2:03:31Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  Peace.

• 2:03:33Rich Roll?

  Plants.

• 2:03:39Rich Roll?

  Wow. All right, everybody. How was that for you? Pretty amazing, right? Tim is a pretty special guy. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, don't forget to check Tim out. The best place is his YouTube channel, Running Raw. I'll put links to the various ways to connect with Tim in the show notes, along with a listing of some of his favorite audiobooks to accompany you on your long runs, your commute at work, what have you. He shared with me a long list because we talked about it in the show and I wanted to be able to provide that with you guys. Also, please, if you haven't already, give us a review on iTunes. We're approaching 1,000 reviews. It would be great to hit that. So do me a solid. Take the two minutes required to go to iTunes,

• 2:04:21Rich Roll?

  drop the review in, share a little bit about how the show has impacted you. If you're in Los Angeles, don't forget to check out Joy Cafe. Feeling awesome, as is the cafe's tagline. It's right in the heart of Westlake Village in the West Valley off Agora Road and the 101 freeway. You can find me there, I don't know, three, four times a week at lunchtime. So come by, say hi, introduce yourself to Joy and Nick, the main owners. Get some delicious food and leave feeling great. If you want to stay current with all things Plant Power, subscribe to my newsletter at richroll.com. It is the only way to get exclusive content, deals, sales, discounts on products, podcast updates. And I promise you, I will not spam you.

• 2:05:05Rich Roll?

  Along those lines, if you want to meet all your Plant Power needs, go to richroll.com and go to mindbodygreen.com for my online courses. If you want to go back and listen to my first interview with Tim, really the only way to do that, short of scrolling through my website, Is to get the free iOS app in the iTunes App Store. Totally free, the only way to access every single episode in the RRP Canon, the RRP Earth, all the way back to episode one and have it all in the palm of your hand. So, check that out. Continue to support the show, you guys, thank you so much. Tell a friend, use the Amazon banner ad, you can donate, there are buttons on the site, and please keep Instagramming, I love that.

• 2:05:49Rich Roll?

  Don't forget to tag me at @Richroll and share with me and the world how you're enjoying the show, where you're enjoying the show, and what is going on in your life. If you're a long time listener, maybe you remember my podcast interview with YouTube filmmaker Casey Neistat, and maybe you even saw his latest YouTube video. It's a video called Snapchat Murders Facebook, and it's a pretty entertaining look at the ascendancy of Snapchat as a real player in the social media space in terms of sharing video content, and I'm on board with it, I'm an early adopter, and I've been sharing little snippets, little video stories about my life, sort of a day in the life of food or training, or just being a dad or a husband.

• 2:06:33Rich Roll?

  They're pretty hacky amateur little sort of looks, you know, peeks into what a day in my life looks like. So, if you're into that kind of thing, you can find me there. My name there is I Am Richroll, I A M R I C H R O L L. The assignment, this is where we're gonna leave it today. This is what I want you guys to do this week. I want you to take a look at your life, take a look at your past experiences, and identify the things about yourself, your personality, your past, your actions, that are still causing you pain, the things that you still refuse to totally accept about yourself, the things

• 2:07:15Rich Roll?

  that keep you hung up, the things that are holding you back, and I want you to do an inventory. I want you to take out a pen and a pad and write down... What these things are. And then I want you to identify one such habit, thought, or idea, and explore that by writing about it every single morning this week in your journal. And at the end of the week, I want you to make a decision to truly accept that aspect of who you are without shame, without regret, without remorse. Because it is this level of true acceptance that is the first step, the first stage, as we talked about today on the show, in ultimately healing it and overcoming it. Until next week.

• 2:08:00Rich Roll?

  Peace. Plants.