E10: Dom's Diary - Mental Health, Addiction & Quitting Business

In this chapter, Dominic McGregor, Co-Founder of Social Chain joins me to talk through his story of building Social Chain, the pressure's of entrepreneurship, mental health, his struggles with addiction & his recovery. Dom's EverydayHero challenge - https://calmchallengeevents201718.everydayhero.com/uk/TeeTotalRunner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  This week may be my favourite chapter of all time. In chapter 10, I fulfil a promise I made to you in chapter nine by inviting on my business partner Dominic McGregor. He comes on the podcast today to share his deep, dark secrets and his incredible story. So many of you will know my story. But this whole time, I've had somebody stood right next to me. And he's a completely different person. He chooses not to take the limelight, he has a different perspective on the world, and he's built in a different way. He has an incredible story. You'll hear things from Dom that, you know, I was honestly frightened to share with the world.

• 0:42Steven Bartlett?

  And I first hired Dom back in 2014 to join my startup, Wallpark, because he had grown a large social media page and I was looking to advertise the platform on social media. I messaged him online and I met him in a bar and I encouraged him to drop out of university and join me full time. And surprisingly and courageously, he did exactly that. We've worked together side by side ever since for the last six years and we went on to start Social Chain together many, many years ago. Through that time, we've been through it all. We've lived together, we've worked together, we've travelled together, we've slept on floors together, we've argued, we've had celebrations like you wouldn't believe. Dom has his personal struggles and me and him, as I said, are very different people. And there are things that I've always wanted to ask him.

• 1:27Steven Bartlett?

  Today was that day. This is his story of success, of mental health issues, of alcoholism, of the... So without further ado, I'm Steve Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 2:01Steven Bartlett?

  Okay Dom, a lot of people that listen to this podcast would probably follow me across Facebook and YouTube and Twitter and Instagram and they know a lot about Social Chain, but they don't hear a tremendous amount about you. So my first question to you is, from your perspective, why is that?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Good question. I think the reason people don't hear a lot about me is a couple of reasons. So I don't like to put myself out there too much, which again, what you put out there, you get back. So that's probably a very main reason. Secondly, the role I play is a little bit different to what Steve plays and what you play, what you play, because it's much more about like bringing people together and getting shit done. And I think, you know, being frank, you know, I probably wasn't someone that maybe like a year ago, two years ago, could be someone who's put out there.

• 3:05Steven Bartlett?

  So what is it you do then? And what, make the distinction between what I do at Social Chain and what you do at Social Chain?

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've always seen it mainly like, the way I think about my head really, is like a little bit like external, internal, like a little bit like, we've always said like a marriage. So what I do is solve problems of how things are working at the moment. So solving what, you know, we've got problems with a campaign because, you know, two parts of the business aren't working very well together, things aren't going smoothly, needs to be someone to come in there to fix it, to tweak it. What Steve does is the role that you do. That's weird, I'm doing it this way. What you do is much more about, it's the external, kind of the noise, who we are, getting ourselves out there, always being the face, always being repping the business, bringing them through the front door, being

• 3:52Speaker 01

  that kind of side of things. But then also more of the, the stuff that involves inspiration and the kind of...

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Perception of what we, who we are internally as well, while mine's more nuts and bolts, pulling things together, sticking things together, this can be more efficient like that.

• 4:11Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. And obviously because I spend a lot of time doing external facing stuff, I, I put myself out there, I'm speaking on stages, I do the podcast, YouTube channel, all these things. I have a cameraman following me at all times. I get a tremendous amount of credit, right? I get like a disproportionate amount of credit. How, a lot of, I think something that I don't think anybody would understand, and one of the questions I want to ask you, because I feel like it's a question that people must wonder, is I, I definitely, just being completely honest, because that's what the podcast is all about. I definitely get a lot more credit than you do, um, in terms of people using my name when they think of social chain or when they think social chain. How does that sit with you?

• 4:53Speaker 01

  I don't care because I know, like, we've said a number of times, he can't alter history. So I think it comes from being secure myself. I know what role I play. I know what, where we came from. I know the story. I know what we do here. I know what we both do and it doesn't matter to me. I think I've always been the business's most important thing here. Social, social chain is us. So it's about making sure that is always going forward.

• 5:21Steven Bartlett?

  Question then, if social chain was two Steve Bartletts, would it work?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  No, it would never work. Same question to you.

• 5:30Steven Bartlett?

  If social chain was two Dom and Gregors?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  No, same question to you.

• 5:33Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, you mean the same question, if it was two Steve Bartletts?

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Two Steve Bartletts.

• 5:36Steven Bartlett?

  No, no.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  No, it would never, we know it never would.

• 5:37Steven Bartlett?

  It would be a completely, it would be a completely different place. And I don't, I don't, I don't know if it ever would have been possible, to be honest.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  It wouldn't have got to, it wouldn't have got anywhere.

• 5:43Steven Bartlett?

  No, because my, my, no, no, it wouldn't have.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  It wouldn't have got anywhere. If it was two Dom and Gregors, it wouldn't have got anywhere.

• 5:49Steven Bartlett?

  No, I'm saying it would be a complete, I know, it wouldn't, I wouldn't even started. That's the problem.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  You know.

• 5:53Steven Bartlett?

  So if, I was gonna say, if you like dropped me in, if you dropped two of me in.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:00Steven Bartlett?

  It would, it would hold, I think it would hold on for a little bit because Steve wouldn't wanna jeopardize it because of other Steve. But I think, I think I'm very, very strong minded in like the ways, the ways that I think should, things should be. I think over time I've got more like. Open to, um, ah, this sounds really bad, but like, I'm very like, I'm very, very specific. And if there was another very, very, very specific person from very early on, in terms of like, what, minor words and these like tiny things, I really don't know if that would have worked.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  It's, Roy said about having like complimentary traits.

• 6:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  And it, that's why it's worked. There's so many times when you, things have been realigned and things have to, we had to have to talk, where conflicting personalities, where similar personalities already would have clashed over their perceptions. And we say that about ego quite a lot. If you have two really big egos who are very, the same type of ego in the room, they, but like you say, they're both in their positions, right? They don't have the, they wouldn't have the foresight to be humble enough to say, well, could do it this way. Especially, and I always think that the, the biggest impact, well, is the biggest impact we both made, is in the early days. You know, when it was just two of us, when with Hannah and obviously everyone else there, that's when we defined the place.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  And, you know, that's when it took a lot of like, work, you know, being honest, you know, you know, you get me there.

• 7:30Steven Bartlett?

  You've been doing a lot more public speaking lately.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:32Steven Bartlett?

  Which is the, so we've, we're now, I don't know, three years into social, and probably like five years into doing this really. But, um, three years as a company, you've now sort of decided to take the stage and start doing more of the outward facing stuff. What's A, inspired that? What's, what's given you the courage to do that? And how are you finding it?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Well, what's given the, what's given me the courage is the self-confidence. Like, I, I guess crippled by, like most people, I'm crippled by their own anxieties about themselves, how they're looked, how they're perceived. Uh, one of the biggest things I hate about myself is my voice. I've got a very distinct accent. You can hear it right now. It's not clean. It's not the best. And that's what my perception of myself is. So I speak quickly. I don't know. I know. So I've always, um, shied away from long public conversations because of that reason, but also because of how I perceive myself. And maybe not being the, uh, a very natural presenter that it's.

• 8:32Steven Bartlett?

  How are you finding it?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I love it now. Honestly, I've got, I've got over them. Um, the voice thing I'm not getting, not over yet, but I'm more embraced it.

• 8:39Steven Bartlett?

  What do you mean by the voice thing?

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Just like how I sound, I don't like how I sound.

• 8:43Steven Bartlett?

  It's just an accent though, isn't it?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. But I've, I struggle, I think people struggle to understand me sometimes, which is again, probably self-deluded, but.

• 8:52Steven Bartlett?

  I think I did, in the earlier days, I would always, I'd say, I'd always say, what, what, what?

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:57Steven Bartlett?

  And then you'd say, repeat yourself, what, what? And I could never understand what you're saying. And then, you've got, you're much more articulate than you were back then. Cause you, I, I just had no idea what you're saying most of the time at the start.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  And that's, that was a huge, I've had that my whole life. People, and I'd be like, God, I need to speak slower. And then when you're speaking in front of people, the minute you feel like you lose their attention, that's when you start going into yourself even more. So, the idea of public speaking now, and I couldn't, wasn't confident with my voice, just triggered everything.

• 9:27Steven Bartlett?

  What's, um, what's the, the most annoying thing that I do?

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Hmm. What's an annoying thing?

• 9:40Steven Bartlett?

  What's like the most annoying thing in terms of working with me? What's the, what's the hardest thing to deal with that I do?

• 9:50Steven Bartlett?

  The thing that's most irritating?

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Um.

• 9:53Steven Bartlett?

  I'm pretty sure it should come to mind pretty quickly. And you can say, you can be a sandwich, that's fine.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. What is the most irritating thing? Uh, there's so many, I'm joking. Um, irritating thing?

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Sometimes forgetfulness.

• 10:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Forgetfulness. We've had conversations about this, it's happened. This is, you know, things go, move on two months later, we, revisit it. It's like, we had a conversation about this.

• 10:13Steven Bartlett?

  And I've forgotten.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  We've forgotten. That's, that's.

• 10:15Steven Bartlett?

  I think it's dementia.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably, mate, yeah.

• 10:17Steven Bartlett?

  Pretty convinced.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  But it's, things with them, you know, it happens.

• 10:22Steven Bartlett?

  What's, um, what do you think the most annoying thing that you do is? In terms of working, working with, working with you?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Uh, over promise.

• 10:31Steven Bartlett?

  Over promise?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:32Steven Bartlett?

  Why did you, why, so?

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Take too much on. Maybe, maybe not over promise, not over promise is probably wrong. Take too much on.

• 10:38Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Try and do too many things.

• 10:39Steven Bartlett?

  Why, why is, why do you do that?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Don't trust other people. I think that was a hard thing at first to get over. Um, I always think I could do a better job than people.

• 10:48Steven Bartlett?

  I also think you're a bit of a yes man.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Bit of a yes man. Definitely, I know, I definitely was more of a yes, yes man.

• 10:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you were.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Definitely more.

• 10:56Steven Bartlett?

  Too much of a yes.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause I was, again, I think trying to, I think what's always been weird.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  And I've talked to a lot of people about this now is when you don't, not that you don't, you don't have a tangible output, you don't have like a, I did X today or I did Y. That shift in your life of, from going like where I started was running communities and you know, growing the pages back at Warpack. From going from that position, I remember, I still remember when you sat me down and we first took the investment and it must have been about a week after. And you said to me, you're not going to run any pages anymore. That was a really weird, that was a really weird feeling. I was like, what do you mean? Of course.

• 11:32Steven Bartlett?

  For context, when Dom says pages, he means Twitter pages. So when I met Dom, Dom was running a bunch of Twitter pages. And um yeah.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's good. And that was very strange. And then that transition between doing that, where you've got like a clear result, to not actually doing a tangible output, but actually helping other people, growing them, doing much more.

• 11:56Steven Bartlett?

  Leadership oriented.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Leadership oriented things was a very difficult transition.

• 11:59Steven Bartlett?

  So on that point, do you think, do you think that entrepreneurs are, are made or do you think they're born? This is a question I get asked all the time. It's, do you think you can, do you think some people are born entrepreneurs or do you think you can be made into entrepreneurs? You answer first and I'll tell you the answer, what I always say.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  I, I've been asked this before and I always, my opinion is that no one's born anything. A lot of life is nurture. And it comes through like the early stages of development. So playing spa, playing, which things you could learn from any influence, whether it's how your parents and how you interact at school. And you do develop certain traits like leadership, for example, which can translate into business. And natural curiosity of wanting things to be done better. And I think that a lot of it is nurture and then however, putting yourself into a position where you run a business, you can learn it's a skill. I honestly think it's a skill rather than something that you're born with.

• 12:55Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, so I think, I think obviously, not all, you've really got to define what you mean by entrepreneur, because there's a very sort of like stereotypical idea of what an entrepreneur is, and it's kind of like, in my mind, it's a bit of like a show pony, risk taker, fearless kind of type, whereas entrepreneurs are. Problem solvers. Yeah, and there's so many different types of entrepreneurs. So you've got like a Mark Zuckerberg, who was a coder that built an amazing product and learnt how to be an entrepreneur. When I say entrepreneur, we're imagining this person that's like really good with people. This is what I imagine anyway, really good with people, like a bit of an extrovert as well, risk taker, kind of big ego, that kind of thing. Whereas really, if you look at the most successful entrepreneurs in the world, when you think about,

• 13:39Steven Bartlett?

  you know, like Elon Musk and Steve Jobs and all these, you know, they didn't start that way, but they're made into that. And from knowing you, when I met you, you were kind of a bit, I wouldn't say you were a bit shy, but only to me, right? You weren't shy to your friends, of course. But you're a bit shy to me in a professional sense, and I think you were low confidence. But going from there, when we met in that bar in York, and I think it was a revolutions bar, to now, has kind of answered the question for me that you can be made one. Because you can be, you know, hammered enough times and hit and, you know, you can, you can kind of teach yourself to be one, which I think will give a lot of people a lot of peace of mind, I guess.

• 14:22Steven Bartlett?

  Anyone that's maybe doesn't look like the person they want to, they want to become, I guess. One of the other questions I had was about your personal journey. So just from my sort of account of knowing you, we met when you were how old, nineteen? Twenty. Twenty. I must have, how old was I then? You were twenty as well. I was twenty as well. And we've come a long way in that time, so.

• 14:47Steven Bartlett?

  You you've had a very sort of interesting personal development journey, much more interesting than my personal development journey. Um. You've gone from being someone that was very, very low confident to taking on great responsibility. And I would say at times in the early days, like really struggling with the the stress of that. And then getting to the point where alcohol started to become a bit of a, um, I don't know what the word is. Started to become something that would help you get out of the stresses of running a business. And, you know, this is just my perception of the situation. Um. And as things got harder and harder, you you you began to escape more. But you didn't, I didn't just feel like you were escaping from the job and the stresses of the job.

• 15:28Steven Bartlett?

  I also, in some respects, felt like I represented the stresses of the job. So we were living together at this point. And um, I speak to some of my friends about this, who are in similar situations where if you work with me and we're with business partners. But then you also come home and live with me, it's kind of like the stress comes home as well. And that's kind of what it felt like at one point, I think.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  I think, I think I had stress from so many angles.

• 15:53Steven Bartlett?

  Where do you think, where was your stress coming from?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  A crap relationship.

• 15:57Steven Bartlett?

  Which which one?

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Hannah.

• 15:59Steven Bartlett?

  Which Hannah, you've dated three. All Dom's girlfriends, by the way, have all been called Hannah in a row. I think that's a bit of a psychological thing there, isn't it?

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that was like, I wanted to get out of that so badly. And half it was just that work, everything. I don't, I don't ever think, I don't think it was coming home to it. I actually, you know, we had, I actually enjoyed it. The house was like, at first was was better than anywhere. But then I think everything just got on top of me, everything from.

• 16:31Steven Bartlett?

  Because I hated this girl, I absolutely hated this girl. She was, I don't, we don't need to, there's so many girls that you've dated called Hannah. Not really saying which one it is, but I couldn't stand this girl because she was just so anti your career and your, well, your ambitions. And it was almost this competition. And obviously, as like the third wheel, I'm, it's always, it's always, it's always gonna happen like that.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And like, I, I wasn't, I hate thinking about it, I mean, as put like then, I was just, I didn't like myself, I hated myself.

• 16:58Steven Bartlett?

  What did you hate about yourself?

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Everything, how I was, you know, like, how I was with her, like, I, I don't even know if I ever said thank you for like, how it ended, but like, basically what Steve did is Steve just sorted it for me and I was, I, I really became a person I didn't like. Really became a person I didn't like.

• 17:15Steven Bartlett?

  You said you hated yourself, what did you hate about yourself?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  I hated, I hated everything, everything to do, everything to do with me, how I was, how, how I looked, how I was acting, how I was speaking. I really hated myself and that, that when you've got this kind of like, base layer of like crap going on, on top of it hating yourself, you know, we, we need, in this situation right now, we need to love ourselves because we're putting ourselves through a lot of stress and a lot, not stress, stress isn't the right word, um, just a lot. And like, you need to love yourself and I hated myself.

• 17:47Steven Bartlett?

  And, and you, you at some point near the end of your relationship with this girl, you developed a, so just to set the scene, you've got this, you know, this job and at the time, Social Chain was, it was still a startup and there was tremendous financial pressures, nothing was guaranteed. We were obviously looking at the bank balance all the time, trying to figure out if we were going to be able to make payday. Clients cancelling left, right and centre because we just weren't set up to fulfil the work properly at that time. Going home every, you know, every night at midnight, 1am, 2am, 3am. Unsure how you're going to pay payday in a, in a couple of days' time. And then you've got, you know, your girlfriend's giving you a hard time, there's all these other sort of, sort of more personal pressures that you've exhibited upon yourself.

• 18:33Steven Bartlett?

  And then you start developing a fairly unhealthy relationship with alcohol.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Destructive.

• 18:37Steven Bartlett?

  Destructive, I think it is.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Destructive.

• 18:39Steven Bartlett?

  And we had this term, didn't we, which I, I used to call you drunk Dom.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and the thing is, you know, it start, you know, what, what Social Chain started out, you know, we had a lot of, you know, we were struggling for paying people, but we're having a lot of wins as well, so there's a lot of things to celebrate as well as we were growing. And at first, everything started off as a celebration, you know, we all go out at weekends and have fun and that was it. And I think the more, it was quite funny because the more, you know, not many, not only me and you know what it was like. You know, no one else knew at the time what, what we were, where we were. And I think, you know, when we're trying to put a smile on, celebrate. With everyone else and when there's things going on in the background, it's like that's when you you start just keeping more drink drinking more and more.

• 19:24Steven Bartlett?

  But you you the relationship you had with drinking was um like nothing I'd seen before. You would you would drink one beer and then if you drank one, you would drink.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Because.

• 19:35Steven Bartlett?

  Until you just wouldn't stop. There wasn't like three or five. It was like it it would you go and keep on and got to the point where we would lose you because you'd be at the bar ordering your own drinks and go and guzzling them down. And I'll never forget that night where we came home and um you were you had the lights off and it was like three three AM in the morning and you were in the front room drinking a bottle of wine with the lights off and I I just got home. Um, and I think that was maybe the start of me realising, well, me thinking like this, this isn't normal. Um, what was that whole period like for you? What was the?

• 20:10Steven Bartlett?

  Did were you? Did you have a con- did you consciously think alcohol was helping? That's what I always wondered. Did you realise? Did or was it a very sort of unconscious thing?

• 20:20Speaker 01

  It was it was so totally unconscious. Like I say, it's that everything for like it started off as a celebration. You know, we'd go out, we'd go to a neighborhood every weekend, we'd celebrate and like by like drink four, drink five when I'm when I'm gone. You don't realise anything because you don't think anything.

• 20:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  And then I just when everyone else was celebrating, I remember the neighborhood opening, we went with me, you, Alex, someone else sat upstairs. And that I just, you know, it's everyone else was celebrating neighborhood opening, but I've got this constant pressures of like crumbling on me like, oh, God, I'm thinking about everything. I'm not. I'm not there. I'm not actually there in the moment with you guys. I'm just sat there drinking my drink, drinking it quickly, getting this feeling of going a little bit numb, making myself go numb. Um, and just I wanted to get away from everyone. I didn't want to get away from from from anyone in particular, but at work, I just wanted to get away. I wanted to go off by myself. I wanted to be in my own little space because.

• 21:16Steven Bartlett?

  Did you? Did you ever think about quitting?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  I thought about selling. I wanted to sell, you know, when the offer started, this is a strange, when the offer started to come in. And people weren't interested to buy, of course, head was turned and I was like. Alright, you know, this we could, we should sell. And I was, I know I was very pro of selling to some people that came in in the early days because it was a way out. And I was like, okay, you know what, if I get the security of selling some, you know, the shares and then I'm alright, I can sort myself out, I, I feel like I've completed something. And kind of in the back of my mind, I knew, you know, if we had to do that, I, I could then sort myself out.

• 21:56Steven Bartlett?

  What would you do? What would, what would, what was your plan?

• 21:58Speaker 01

  I had, I had, I had no plan because I, I just, I just know I wanted something and I was like, I was seeking, seeking something in myself, like. And when this is when I was drinking, like I've, I've said to you a million times, but once, once I, once I stopped drinking and now every single time I get an offer, I'm not, I don't care about it. You know, it's, in that moment there, I, and then I was seeking like.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  I don't know what I was, I don't know what I was looking for, I was just looking for something. Like the, when, when the Hut Group wanted to buy us, I was, you know, I snapped their hands off then because it would have meant

• 22:36Speaker 01

  security.

• 22:37Steven Bartlett?

  And then, so you get out of this fairly toxic relationship.

• 22:42Steven Bartlett?

  As you alluded to, it wasn't, uh, it wasn't, it didn't happen easily, did it? I remember you telling me one night, you said, right, Steve, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go meet her. And I'm gonna go and end it. And then you went, um, met her. You were out for four or five hours, I sat home waiting. You came back and you were still in the relationship and in fact, she managed to convince you that you were the problem and that in fact, your career was so selfish that she was the victim.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Steven Bartlett?

  And so you came back really upset about what you had done to her by having this career. And I think again, that for me, it was just another sign that you, you weren't really in control of the situation.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't in control of my own emotions, I wasn't in control of the relationship. And.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  I'm, I know, it sounds stupid, but like, I hate that person. I see, I see him now in other people.

• 23:34Steven Bartlett?

  Drunk Dom.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Drunk Dom, that, that guy, you know, so, even in Sober, when he was in a relationship, and I just look at him and think, how, how, how you like that when there's, it's so obvious you're in a bad relationship, it's so obvious you've got a problem. And I've, because I've been through that, obviously, but it's, it's so obvious, obvious to see now, but at the time, you're just so gazed with everything, like you just, you don't know your right from wrong, you've got all these voices in your head, you don't know what's going on with you, you're not, you're not happy with anything, you're not happy with yourself, you're not happy with your relationship, no one's like, no one's like making you feel good, you're putting so much pressure on yourself and, you know, something's got to change at that point.

• 24:15Steven Bartlett?

  And you, um, because you were in that state where you were struggling with these external things, I, rea- just from hearing you now, it's evident, it's sort of clear that that's why you lost control of that romantic relationship.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:27Steven Bartlett?

  In the sense that you would, you were almost quite submissive to this person, and she was quite naturally a bit of a manipulator. So, I remember the day after you'd, I think, finally broken up with her, and she calls you on the phone and she says, if you don't leave work right now and come and see me, I'm gonna crash my car, and she's driving on the motorway.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  And then she screams.

• 24:46Steven Bartlett?

  She screams and she hangs up the phone to make it seem like she crashed.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:50Steven Bartlett?

  And obviously you're very upset by that, as everybody would be, because you, you know, you believe this person, but she was really playing to this guy that wasn't in control of himself, and she knew that.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:00Steven Bartlett?

  And she, so, and then, so what we did that day, obviously I'd already banned her from everywhere, I hope she was banned from the house, she was banned from the office, because, you know, I just thought she was a bad, uh, bad influence. I always felt really guilty, I'll be honest, I always felt really guilty because I'm a bit of a control freak, as you'll know, like I'm very controlling when it comes to a lot of things, and I, I was always really worried that I was controlling you, that I was controlling you, but that's how it felt sometimes, I felt like I was, I'm like, is this just me controlling Dom?

• 25:24Speaker 01

  No, do you know, because when I, when we, when I first met her, we were the same on Lisa's floor.

• 25:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  So I was like, I've met a girl, she lives in Manchester, I can stay at her house, you know, I can, like, get a bit of a base. And I was like, this sounds like a good idea, you know, not like Lisa's.

• 25:38Steven Bartlett?

  So for context, when we, when Dom met this girl, me and Dom were basically homeless.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:42Steven Bartlett?

  And in the sense that we were, we'd moved out of our place and we were looking for somewhere to live.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:46Steven Bartlett?

  So.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so, and, you know. I latch, I latch to that. I, I look for any kind of like stable base. And I was like, I fell into it. I was like, this got a house, I can stay there, I can, I can do something, you know.

• 26:01Steven Bartlett?

  And she, so she, she ended up, she gave you those phone calls where she, you know, she threatens to kill herself. You obviously get very upset. We say to you, listen, go, go to Thailand today, literally booked the flight, went to the airport that day, you just flew away. Cause your men had gone on holiday with her, weren't you, to, to Africa? Um, you flew away. Talk to me about the day that you quit alcohol and how that happened. Or what made you quit?

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:26Steven Bartlett?

  In the end.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  So I think I was always a danger for myself. Which I could deal with. I knew, I, I broke my, I damaged my ankle one night and I was hurting myself, you know. I remember my birthday, this, this is like my birthday, went out, my birthday was on Sunday, went on, right on the Saturday. I spent the entire Sunday in our cinema room, which is pitch black, no lights, just there in the dark. And you guys came in and asked if you wanted to go to town for, to Barren Grill. I said, no, I'll stay here. And that for, that for me was like a moment when I was like, what? It's my birthday. And I'm just sat in this black room, hungover, not seeing anyone. And I was like,

• 27:11Speaker 01

  that's when, that's when I really started to think, what the hell am I doing with myself?

• 27:16Speaker 01

  And then a couple of incidents happened when I was still doing damage to myself, but I wasn't doing damage to people. I thought, you know what, as long as

• 27:26Speaker 01

  it's not too bad, you know, no one's, I don't think people were catching on. Obviously people knew. And then, um, I'll just be honest, I quit, I quit drugs first, you know, that, I got that out of my life. I was like, I don't need that.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  And I thought that was a problem.

• 27:43Steven Bartlett?

  What drugs?

• 27:44Speaker 01

  What drugs? Um, coke. Doing coke, you know, um. I felt that was a problem. I felt that was the problem. So I got rid of that. Uh, like, you know, I'm not, I don't need that. That's not me.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  For a bit of time, maybe it's my head I got better, but I don't think I did. And then went to the races.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Alcohol foot fuelled day. I got back about eight o'clock, middle of the day. To Piccolino's in Oldley Edge. And I just went in there. Started stealing bottles of wine off people's tables. Generally just disruptive shouting at people.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  In front of some of the team. And then realised that. Got thrown out. Started walking down the street. Shouting again at other people, you know, just for how, how can they throw me out?

• 28:43Speaker 01

  And then, yes, I, I regretfully, probably the worst moment of my life, said things to someone who.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  I probably considered to be one of my closest friends. And.

• 28:56Steven Bartlett?

  Someone that works in the team.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Someone that works in the team. Very good, very, very good friend of mine. Who's been here since day one. I care about deeply. And waking up that morning, finding out what I said to him. And the manner in which I acted towards him. He was only trying to help me. He was actually trying to get me to bed. Take me home.

• 29:15Steven Bartlett?

  What did you say to him?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  To this day, I can't remember.

• 29:19Steven Bartlett?

  Did you know what, what the topic was?

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know what the topic was, yeah.

• 29:23Steven Bartlett?

  Was it about his performance within the team?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  It was about his performance in the team and his perception from other people and.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Me saying things about, about that. And. I, on hearing the demeanor of the conversation I had with him. I drunk, completely drunk, you know, this is, like Steve said, this is drunk Dom, this isn't me. I realised that I'm hurting other people.

• 29:50Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, so just from my perspective, because I was, I was also out and about that night. I just went for some dinner with some friends. And obviously there's two, there was two different Doms. There was the Dom in work, who was the, you know, the super nice guy, the, the team player, the, the calm, collected, funny guy. At times, I'd, I'd say the butt of the joke as well. But predominantly, the reason why you're the butt of the joke amongst even some of the team was because of the other Dom.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 30:16Steven Bartlett?

  And obviously, when you're less secure in yourself, you kind of make yourself the butt of the joke. And you, you'd been that guy for a while. And then there was this other Dom, which was the drunk Dom, which. Because of how out of hand it was getting, was doing damage to Real World Dom. And the problem we have when we're trying to lead people is, um, we need to, we, like, leadership is a given thing. People give it to you and if they don't respect you because of how you're acting, in work or out of work, you cannot lead people. And so this was the, and so I was at dinner at Sicana, I think it's a restaurant in Manchester and started getting texts from people in the team saying, um, it was Alex and Sam that texted me saying like, listen, Dom's out of control, he's da, da, da, he's been kicked out of Pecolino's, he's walking down the street, he's just said something to somebody.

• 30:57Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and I think that was the, the first moment when we had a conversation, which was really, really not pleasant.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  No, no, yeah.

• 31:05Steven Bartlett?

  I remember on texting you and you texting me saying that, you know, and you were absolutely wasted, but you were saying that you wanted to sell. And I remember that moment thinking, it was, it hit me like a ton of bricks because although I was like, I was so pissed off in the moment, I was like, fuck you, whatever. I was also like, that's pretty serious. If you're at the point where even drunk version of you is like, it wants to, wants out. Cause that's what you're saying, you want it out. I was like, that's pretty fucking serious.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  I wanted out because I couldn't, I didn't think I could deal with it.

• 31:34Steven Bartlett?

  And what, what are the, you know, you, you, you do so much now, um, on things like mental health issues. And your recovery from, from, you know, drinking too much, I guess, and the way you've progressed. What, do you, did you have mental health issues? And if you did, what were they? Cause I know mental health is a very broad thing. It's not necessarily depression or anxiety what it is, but mental health, as I've come to understand through my own sort of education of it, is such a broad thing from, you know, OCD to hoarding. Like, what are the, the mental hea- health issues you think you've had?

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had, I, I had anxiety. That was like what I had.

• 32:11Steven Bartlett?

  Well, how does that, what was, what did that feel like?

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Imagine, imagine you've, you've, you're talking to yourself and you're talking yourself out of everything.

• 32:22Steven Bartlett?

  Talking yourself out of everything?

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you don't, like, for example, so, um.

• 32:28Steven Bartlett?

  Because I always wonder if I've got anxiety.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  You have, everyone has.

• 32:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Everyone has, but it flares up. And so what I learnt was how to manage it, to notice when you're having moments of feeling anxious. And what to do in them moments. And just to be aware that you you have it, because I never I never knew what anxiety was.

• 32:45Steven Bartlett?

  What how does it feel, what's the?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Um, how does it feel? Um. Something's pressing on your mind and you know you need to talk to someone about it, but you put it off. Because you don't think it's the right time, you want to get them in a different situation. Um, take, for like example, like a client, a client not paying. You'll hold that information to yourself, try and solve it yourself. But you'll you'll not get anyone else involved. You'll lock it away until it's a point where either it's got so far out of hand that you need someone to come in to help you. Or you've solved it and it can go away.

• 33:19Steven Bartlett?

  Is it like a feeling though?

• 33:20Speaker 01

  It's it's it's.

• 33:21Steven Bartlett?

  Is it a feeling like of nervousness? Or anxiousness?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's, yeah, you get it.

• 33:28Steven Bartlett?

  Because sometimes I get this real, when I when I've got something on my mind. And and I'm like, I've put, I've compartmentalized it a little bit. And I start feeling like super anxious. I think like, almost like a, almost like a kind of, almost the feeling like that I get just before I go up on stage. I get that for a while in my in my like, in my insides.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  So I had that. That's what you get, but naturally what I do is I take I take on too many things. So when you've got these.

• 33:55Steven Bartlett?

  You're just adding to the.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, adding to it, you're not solving it. And like, some small thing that made a big difference to me, like at work, was like. Getting a calendar, you know, we didn't have a calendar for the first two years, we were just roping stuff. Getting a windowless, you know, learning how to deal with the problems put in front of you. Small changes make such a big difference. Um, but the main thing was, when you get that feeling of being anxious. Solving it. And I had to write down like every single time I felt anxious over a problem. And then. Say what I thought the outcome was going to be. So for example, if if someone someone asks for a pay rise and. Someone would ask for a pay rise and you, you don't know, you don't know how to react because it gets this anxious in your, in your head because you're thinking about paydays coming up, we haven't got enough money to pay people and

• 34:40Speaker 01

  you start thinking about a million things before you can even go back to them and say, this is where we're at.

• 34:45Steven Bartlett?

  And, and they pile on top of each other.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  They pile on top of each other and then.

• 34:47Steven Bartlett?

  Making all of them.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then, and then I was drinking and I was forgetting about them over the weekend.

• 34:52Steven Bartlett?

  Then you're sober up.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Then you're sober up and you're like, it gets on top of you.

• 34:55Steven Bartlett?

  Got you.

• 34:57Steven Bartlett?

  So that's interesting for me.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  And that's just work things and there's life things as well, you know, you look at yourself, you look at how you, in so, so, so this is a weird one, so I get, I, I get small doses like social anxiety where and it comes out more when I'm drunk, that's why I go off by myself, because sometimes I don't know what to say to people in conversation. Because I think, because you've got everything going on in the back of your mind, sometimes you're just a blank person. Like you'll be there in social situations, but you won't be there because your mind will be gone away. And you're just sat there and you're like, I don't know what to say to people because I've got this million things I'm thinking about, so I don't want to appear socially awkward, so I'm just gonna leave.

• 35:32Steven Bartlett?

  So you never, you never really spoke to me about that feeling?

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:37Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  I didn't speak to anyone about it. I've not, the only person I spoke to about it was the guy I was seeing. I, I spent so long trying to understand myself, I'm still not there, no one ever gets there. And it's like, understanding the triggers you have, how you are, um.

• 35:55Steven Bartlett?

  When you say, when you say the guy you're saying, you mean, after you quit drinking, you went and sought help, et cetera, from somebody?

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:01Steven Bartlett?

  But, but you never, you never, I was sat next to you this whole time while you were feeling these things. Think about, why didn't you just turn to me and say, this is how I'm feeling, it's really tough and I'm, you know?

• 36:15Speaker 01

  I think it's probably the same reason a lot of guys don't speak.

• 36:17Steven Bartlett?

  Why's that?

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Feeling, feeling inadequate, don't feel like you're up for it, um, feel like you can solve it yourself, you don't need help, that, that kind of whole thing. You know, I can get through this, you know, I'm not, we, sign showing weakness.

• 36:30Steven Bartlett?

  And did you, did, did you not think that I had any weaknesses or what was your perception of what, how I was dealing with all these things?

• 36:40Speaker 01

  I always thought you were so good at putting them to the back of your mind, that they weren't there. And I don't know, I don't know, I thought, I don't know. I don't know, I think I was just so caught up in myself, worried about them, that I didn't... You know, you were the first person to tell me to talk to someone about it. I didn't even think, I didn't even know I should speak to someone about it.

• 37:03Steven Bartlett?

  That's really interesting.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  I thought, I thought, I thought me as a person, I didn't know I needed help, you told me I needed help.

• 37:12Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so let's go back to that day then. So, the day after, you get very drunk, you wake up, you realise you've damaged a few things, a few relationships, etc.

• 37:22Steven Bartlett?

  I messaged you and I said, "Let's meet at the office", and we met at the office and we had a conversation, a very private, honest conversation, in which we talked about...

• 37:33Steven Bartlett?

  You know, we were very honest for the first time ever, I think. And I think the only thing that stopped me on that day being mad at the damage you did... Because the way I always felt was like drunk Dom would create a mess for me to clear up.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:44Steven Bartlett?

  And the only thing that stopped me being mad on that day at all was just how honest you were about your situation. It was the first time, that was the first time where you were actually honest about how you were feeling. And you can't be mad at somebody when they tell you that they've been struggling with some stuff and that they want to get a grip of it and that they want to... You know, so that was, and then from there, you said, "I told you you needed to see a guy", I can't really remember that, I certainly didn't make you go and see him.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 38:08Steven Bartlett?

  You get the credit for that.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  No, and I think, like I said, the first time I hurt someone else. I think I could deal with hurting myself, but hurting someone else, that, that's not me. And it's not, complete contrast to who I am as a person, I don't hurt people, you know.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm not that. And I think that, that bit of me, knowing that I've done that damage to someone, and alongside like actually speaking to someone about it for the first time, being told by my best friend that something's not right with you.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Is like, that hits all in the space of twenty four hours and you know, you know, that's the lowest point and that, that low point, that day is like the day I never want, I, you kept using that feeling how I felt that day as I'm never going back there. I'm never feeling like that again.

• 39:01Steven Bartlett?

  And the thing, the thing that's, I've always wanted to, to hear from you from is, um, entrepreneurship and being, you know, let's use that full letter word, the boss and all these things and, um, being, you know, the CEO and in charge is something that's glamorized, um, on social media, in movies, in magazines, in culture in general. There's this obsession with, you know, being the, the entrepreneur. The, the association is that you're on private jets and you've got jet skis and all the money you want and the biggest smile in the world. But there's another story which nobody tells you about. Um, what is that other story from your perspective?

• 39:40Speaker 01

  And that other story is like almost the reality. It's almost, you know, you, you do, you do see the project, you do see that, but you don't see the, the actual work that goes into getting there. And I think the reason that the entrepreneur is this flamboyant person is because what they learn through the journey. They learn to become, like you say, you learn to become that type of person, um, through going through hard times.

• 40:02Steven Bartlett?

  What are the hard times?

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Hard times, what, God, where do you start? Hard times. Um,

• 40:09Speaker 01

  questioning whether this is like, constantly questioning whether this is the right thing that you're doing, you know, we, how many times have we changed course of what, who we are as a business, you know, it's taken us two, three years to find our identity. Um.

• 40:24Steven Bartlett?

  Here's, here's one of the hard times that I think you just mentioned there as well, just to add, is being the, the buck stops with you. So if you come, this is one of the things that I've, I learnt that, um, this is the first sort of challenge, I think, that entrepreneurial gods give you. They say, Everybody's problem is your problem, as well as your existing problems.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:47Steven Bartlett?

  And unfortunately, you can't pass it to anybody.

• 40:52Steven Bartlett?

  And also because you're in charge, nobody's going to tell you what to do or how to handle it. Which is also one of the, you know, perceived upsides of being an entrepreneur is nobody tells you what to do. But also, you know, at moments where you've got a, you know, a twenty five year old guy or girl come to you with some serious problems. Whilst you're dealing with your clients, you know, massive client problems and then massive financial problems and then massive personal problems. And then more of the same repeated the same day.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  And then every single person adds another problem to the mix.

• 41:22Steven Bartlett?

  And everyone adds one more to the, it's almost this conveyor belt that comes to your desk.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  That's one thing I said, I said to the guy when I was seeing him. You know, every time we'd celebrate winning a contract or a new person would start, that was like another layer on top. It was more worry, you know, the more people we got in the team, the more people we had to pay, the more money we had to make, the more.

• 41:41Steven Bartlett?

  Issues.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  The more issues, you know, and the, the growth of it, the growth of social sharing was so quickly. And the amount of people we got in, the amount of clients we won, the minute we won, as soon as we won a client, my first thought was, God, how are we gonna?

• 41:58Speaker 01

  How, you know, are we gonna be able to deliver this? What happens if it goes wrong? We, you know, we've got a lot of, a lot of backing on this being a success. And then, you know, another thing would happen, you get more people on top and then, like Steve said, you got your, you said you got your personal stuff as well. And it's.

• 42:15Steven Bartlett?

  I, I, I just remember those days. I mean, I, I've talked on my podcast before about that day when we got hacked and, you know, we had all, all of our clients at one point basically tell us they were going to leave. We had a team waiting who would just want, you know, we're waiting to go into paintball and we had to tell them, but we had to try and fight to convince our clients that we didn't hack, you know, it wasn't us that had sent them those malicious emails, et cetera. And then I remember that day, you know, someone in the team's boyfriend had dumped them and they were in a terrible state and they needed picking off of the floor. You know, your clients need picking off of the floor, you've got, you know, family issues at home and all these things going on and you are twenty three years old, like at these times.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:54Steven Bartlett?

  You're twenty three years old, you, you're barely trying to figure out the world to yourself and you're being forced to be. Significantly beyond your years without the qualifications or without the stress. And so, one thing that I've learned is how much it changes you. And I've seen you change, it's hard to see yourself change, but I can, I know what old Steve was like. I also know what Dom's like and the change I've seen in you is probably more drastic. Going from that, that kid that I met in that revolutions bar to the like the weathered, tough, hard, very, very, very impatient, I'd say now with, when it comes to bullshit.

• 43:38Steven Bartlett?

  A very, very low tolerance for bullshit or people bullshit, people that are causing problems or that are egotistical or that are doing things with bad intentions. Your reaction now is you very much want to wash your hands of them very quickly. Probably, you're probably more impatient in that regard than I am. And it's just interesting how in three years you can change so much. There's very sort of character of who you are because of the experience that you put yourself in. But I just want to take you back to, so on that day, you know, this is, this is the moment your life changes in your own words. The day that you sit down and you admit you're struggling and you say you're going to go see this guy. And you said you're going to go quit drinking. Honestly, didn't believe you.

• 44:19Steven Bartlett?

  Of course I didn't believe you. I'd, I'd known drunk Dom for so long, for my whole, you know, my whole life working with you and, you know, being friends with you, that's the only guy I'd known. So I didn't see how you would do that. But here we are. How long's it been now? What month were you, January? Nineteen, nineteen months. Nineteen months. Nineteen months without a drop of alcohol. Ran multiple marathons. You've lost, I don't know, you're probably skinnier than me now, which is concerning. Healthier than ever, transformed in sense of your leadership skills, total respect from everyone in the team and beyond. People that don't, you don't know this, but people that didn't respect you then are literally intimidated by you now.

• 45:01Steven Bartlett?

  And we've got a mutual friend who I won't name, but he literally told me this weekend, he was like, Dom is like intimidating now. You went from being this, the, the, the joke in the group to being the, you know, the, the, so good at leadership that you're intimidating people. Talk to me about that journey from the start, meeting this guy, what he taught you.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  What he taught me, he, so I said, I said it was always like lessons, alright. He, he gave me the, he asked me the questions which made me, I always, how do I frame it? He made me think about myself. He asked me questions that I've never been asked before about family, about relationships, about work, and he made me think. And I, I first understood what I was going through. It took him about fifty minutes of me talking at him to say, okay, this is, this is what you've got, this is what you're dealing with, this is how we're gonna like get over it. And the minute he told me what I had and he said the word anxiety, it, it, things started to fall into place. I was like, okay, this is, this is why, this

• 46:04Speaker 01

  is, this all makes sense now. And it, it was, I just, it just made me think about myself. He made me, gave me confidence, gave me some ways of getting over it. What, what did you learn about yourself from him?

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Where to start? You learn your triggers, you learn, you learn, you learn, I lost who I was. And I won't forget when I used to go home to York to see my parents, my, my mum would just be completely different with me. And I tell him this guy, all these things about, like the small things about my mum not like wanting to see me and, you know, how family think you changed as well. It makes you think like, that's not me as a person. And then I went, he sat down with me and said like, look, what, what do you think your values are? What do you want to be known for? Who do you want, who do you want to be in five years? What do you want people to think of you? And we kind of did that exercise.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  And then he said to me, what you need to do then is all your actions have to sit within your values. So if you don't think something aligns with who you want to be or how you want to be perceived, you can't do it. Not you can't do it, but you shouldn't do it because it's not who you are. So I had a real big session with him where we just spoke about what I was known for growing up, how I was, how I thought people perceived me. And he said, look, that's who you are. You're still that person, you've just lost him. And it was really hard, really hard, like, hearing that you, like, because my mum, my mum said that to me, that she feels like she's lost me as well, which was really hard to hear.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, I think through that, I, I, it comes down to your personality. So loads of people have told me they're gonna give up drinking. Loads of people have told me they wanna do try, try January and fail. But really, you know, you've, you've said it as well. You said it to me and it always resonates with me. It's like the, I can't remember off the top of my head, you'll, you'll jump in it. But change only occurs when the pain of staying the same is.

• 48:03Steven Bartlett?

  Greater than the pain of making the change.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  And you said that to me, you said that to me, I can't remember, a number of times. Um, and that was, that was something that always resonated with me. And I was like, okay. That's never, that feeling, that feeling I had that, that morning waking up, I'm never having that feeling ever again. I'm getting past that. Um, I'm never gonna be there again. And I was just so spurred on by who I think I want to be, what my values are, and never letting myself get into that position of feeling like that ever again.

• 48:34Steven Bartlett?

  Who, who do you wanna be and what are your values?

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Um, so I want, I've, okay, going back to what, when I was younger, I was always really active and really sporty. That was something that I really loved. I always loved doing that. Um, I always saw myself as, um, loads of friends, loads of people that really liked in social situations, um, which I started to lose. Um, and then as well, I guess,

• 49:04Speaker 01

  I guess one, one thing is that I always, you know, I always saw myself as really ambitious and I really always saw myself as someone who takes on challenges and solves them. Um, so solves them but also overcomes them. Um, and I turned it into a game for myself. I turned it into a self that I, um, alcohol's the enemy and alcohol's the opponent from sport. You're gonna beat it. And that's how I, how I framed it. And who I wanted to be is I, I wanted to be, um, I've got this image in my head. I've always had it. I've always like looked a couple of years forward of this kind of perception of this person of who I am. Um.

• 49:41Steven Bartlett?

  Describe it.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Not far off where I am now.

• 49:45Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Like, I've got, um, obviously the journey's never complete, but um, I'm in two, in just nearly, in under two years' time, transformed into the, this person who, when I was sat there, hungover after doing what I did, this is who I want to be.

• 50:04Steven Bartlett?

  I don't, I don't know how you've done it, to be honest. Honestly, I fucking, I guess it must be the pain of staying the same or something, but.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  It, it.

• 50:11Steven Bartlett?

  It takes, to not drink for nineteen months when you're your age, despite everybody pressuring you, go on, have, you know, go on, have a drink. And then, and then to do the running thing as well. I'm like, Christ, not drinking, but then to run marathons every bloody other day. And to run, I think you've run like twelve, was it twelve K yesterday?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:28Steven Bartlett?

  Twelve K yesterday on a Sunday. It's like, I was in bed, like, watching Netflix with my dog. Um, and you're out there running at like bloody two AM in the morning. I don't know where you get that, that like drive, uh, to, I guess, you know, I don't know.

• 50:43Steven Bartlett?

  To, it must have, like, because, you know, people, they'll wanna make a change and it'll last a month and they'll be like, you know, back to my old ways. So it's pretty tremendous that you've been able to completely shift the course of your life for a sustained period of time, I think.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think it's only in hindsight you start realising how dark things got. Like, I'll never forget, and this is, I haven't told, I haven't, I've only told one person this because, um, I had a very open conversation with someone who, who's a friend, um, who was going through things as well. And he asked me, um, have you ever thought about it? And I went, thought about what? And he went, killing yourself. And I said, I said, no, I've never sat there and thought, uh, okay, I'm gonna kill myself. Never thought about that. Um, but sometimes, you know, and this will be all completely saying it, when, when the train's coming past the station, you just think, oh, what if?

• 51:40Speaker 01

  What if I jumped, you know, oh, I'd be all right. And I had, I, and I had that thought with a couple of things.

• 51:47Steven Bartlett?

  Was that at low times or was that?

• 51:49Speaker 01

  That was low, that was the low time. That was, that was, that was a low time. Um, going on to London, I'd sit there and think, if I'm on the station, but if I jump, what happens if I jump? Who would miss me? What happened? It ha- and honestly, I had that a couple of times and it's only when you like, all these things I'm saying have always only been in hindsight, like, understanding my anxieties and understanding my triggers and understanding what sets me off. Um, it's only been discovered in hindsight when I know about myself. So when you, you have that such a contrast of who you were versus the path you're on now. You'll do everything you can to, to move forward and not go back.

• 52:26Steven Bartlett?

  And how important was

• 52:29Steven Bartlett?

  taking that first step just to go and speak to somebody because it is incredibly hard. I think, you know, it's, people, you know, people often think, you know, I don't speak to somebody about the way I'm feeling because I want to be brave. But for me, there is nothing braver than being like, holding my hand up and saying, do you know what? I need to speak to somebody. I couldn't, I, I really wonder if I went through some serious like mental health issues, would I be able to go and speak to somebody? I don't think I'm that brave.

• 53:02Steven Bartlett?

  I, I, because, just because of the stigma, it's a terrible shame, but you know.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Speaking, speaking to you about it, that's what.

• 53:09Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  I, we, we spoke about it and that was me talking about it.

• 53:12Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  And I think if I can say it to you, you know, I can, I can, I've said it, I've said it now and.

• 53:20Steven Bartlett?

  But how important was it though for to, to go, to, to go and speak to somebody about it? Cause you've, you've referenced before that.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the most important thing. It was the most, you know, it was the biggest, most important first thing was finding, you know, someone telling me something's wrong. Something's telling me, someone who knows me better than anyone, telling me that something's wrong. That was the most important thing in my life.

• 53:40Steven Bartlett?

  The start was you admitting it though, wasn't it? The start was that day you admitted it.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:44Steven Bartlett?

  To yourself, I think.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  I admit to myself, yeah, and I made it to you. But you know, you, we spoke about it, you know, it wouldn't have happened if it didn't happen. But then the second part of that was then acting upon that and having a conversation with someone who knows what we, I had the same, I said the same thing to him that I said to you. You know, that day, same, I said exactly how I felt and he can put it into a, into a structure that helps me overcome it, so.

• 54:12Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things I was, I've always wanted to speak to you about is money. So we talk about how, you know, not having money is in terms of paying your staff and, you know, cash flow issues and all these things, which we went through for a good eighteen months, non-stop of, you know, like probably five months in a row where we're just like, I have no idea. I remember that one month where um, we looked at the bank account and payday was just around the corner, I think a week away. There is no money in the bank, but there is a team to pay. And there's many, many bills to pay, probably, I don't know, seventy, sixty, seventy thousand pounds worth of bills to pay in a week's time. No money in the bank and just that mad scramble to sell something, um, which we did and we always seem to get past it. So, and get them to pay, yeah.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Then paying was a different story.

• 54:58Steven Bartlett?

  This is such a funny story. We managed to sell to a, um, a company at the time, a, a campaign. And one of the KPIs was there'd be a trigger payment if we hit a certain, uh, objective.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:08Steven Bartlett?

  Uh, and we're, we're very good at our jobs and we've always been good at social media. I mean, it's why Social Chain exists. But the, the objective, basically to save Social Chain in hindsight, was getting them to be the number one trending topic, um, in, in the country. So it was really, if, if this brand doesn't become the number one trending topic in the country.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  We fail.

• 55:27Steven Bartlett?

  We fail.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  And that, that, that is the truth.

• 55:30Steven Bartlett?

  That's the crux of it, isn't it?

• 55:31Speaker 01

  I remember you messaging me then, this has to happen.

• 55:33Steven Bartlett?

  We have to, we have to make them the number one trending topic in the country, or it's goodbye.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  I think that's the last, I think, I think that's the last campaign I did. I ran, yeah, because we.

• 55:42Steven Bartlett?

  Probably one of the last times I've sold.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  Because I think it was the last, I remember we were in the white room there. And it was, it was, I think it was me and Hannah who stayed late to do it. And we were like, this has to happen. And Hannah, Hannah was so shocked when I celebrated and I celebrated, I'm, you know, probably not since Tippy Tap. But I celebrated like we, you know.

• 56:03Steven Bartlett?

  That's just unbelievable.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  We've just done it. Because you were, I think you were in London, weren't you?

• 56:06Steven Bartlett?

  I can't remember, but I remember messaging the client the next day and be like, hey, we did it. Can you send the money, please? But anyway, moving on. So the point I was going to make is, okay, so not having money in a business is tremendously stressful. But what about on the opposite side of it? Being, you know, 22 years old, the time when we first started getting a little bit of money. And it wasn't even a tremendous amount of money. It was just more money than we needed, right?

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got spare.

• 56:29Steven Bartlett?

  How did having too much money impact you?

• 56:34Speaker 01

  I guess.

• 56:36Steven Bartlett?

  And does money make you happy?

• 56:37Speaker 01

  No, money doesn't make me happy. It didn't make me happy.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  What it does, it gives you freedom, you know, money, having money, disposable money, you can do things. And we were partying. That's what we did.

• 56:51Steven Bartlett?

  But what was, what was the, was it all, is it all upside?

• 56:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:55Steven Bartlett?

  To get a make. What's the downside?

• 56:59Steven Bartlett?

  So for me, and this is kind of what I was, I was alluding to, I guess, was. The, I guess, a bit of a sense of anticlimax.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:09Steven Bartlett?

  Thinking, I remember we had a conversation in the old flat where I. I think me and you realised that we were not motivated by money because I remember standing to him saying. This was before Social Chain was a company, really, and it was in the sort of gap between Wool Park and Social Chain. I remember saying to you, there's 20, 30,000 pounds worth of business in my emails. If I just go downstairs and send an email, then we make the money, but I just can't be arsed because I'm not, because 20, another, you know. Couple of grand isn't going to make me happy. So there's no motivation to do it. But, and what that taught me in that moment when we had that conversation. Is that I don't do this for the money. I I mean now when we when we sign big deals and you know we sign major clients, I'm tremendously happy. But the reason isn't because of the money.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 57:55Steven Bartlett?

  It's and that's that's what I I came to learn. The thing from that conversation which um stayed with me is. I think and I'm just gonna be completely honest, at the time you were pursuing a girl. Do you remember this? You're pursuing a girl.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  I know exactly who you mean.

• 58:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  From York.

• 58:10Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  I know exactly who you mean, yeah.

• 58:12Steven Bartlett?

  And she and I and I think because you thought that money was the enabler of all possibilities, which is what I when I say the anticlimax, what I mean. You thought money basically, when you're gonna grow up, you think it gets you everything.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:26Steven Bartlett?

  But you couldn't get this girl.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 58:27Steven Bartlett?

  And and you and you were putting pressure on yourself because you're like, well, I've got I've got some money now, not a huge amount of money, just a couple, you know. You were doing, you weren't a student anymore, you weren't a broke student anymore. But you you thought that the money would get you the girl.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:39Steven Bartlett?

  And because it wasn't getting you the girl, you were struggling with that.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yep, and I I think you're completely right, you know, you think the money, the money side of things is a success, you know, that's that's like an open door, but. It um only exposes cracks in who you are as a person. And I think that that's the way, you know, you see about, one, I'm so glad that I managed to make a bit of money when I was younger because. It teaches you about yourself, it teaches you about what you value, it teaches you about what you want in life and. Right now, money, it doesn't make a difference because I wasn't happy then. I I know I wasn't happy then, you know, I went through. A year of not being happy with myself, obviously, and no amount of money would have changed me, it would have destroyed me.

• 59:24Steven Bartlett?

  What makes you happy?

• 59:25Speaker 01

  What makes me happy now, the number one thing that makes me happy is like seeing other people happy. And that comes from like seeing them here, progress, seeing them here, um do things. Every time. Like today, we had such a great day with good news. I'm so glad that people are winning and it's like we've we've we've. Built an environment here where people can can do that. I think that that's what makes, that gives me the most satisfaction now.

• 59:50Steven Bartlett?

  Still wanna sell?

• 59:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 59:52Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 59:53Speaker 01

  No, um, this is, this is, this, this is me. I think I was like, I, I don't know, I didn't, I saw the, the work stress as a, as, as the enemy.

• 1:00:03Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  But then, you know, they had the girlfriend in one ear at the time, but then I realised that this is, this social trend, you know, I'm, this is, it's me. You know, it's us, it's everyone who built it. Um, this is our purpose. And I think I needed to, I learnt that. Um, I learnt that. I don't know why I didn't know it, but I learnt that, that this is like, everything I'm doing is for this. This is, this is who we are.

• 1:00:29Steven Bartlett?

  I think, I think it's, it's, it's important to note that through all the hard times, I obviously we went through the hard times too.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Steven Bartlett?

  And I, I never, um, I think the only thing.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  I think that, that one question I wanted to ask, I wanted to ask you that I'm not, is like.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Like, I always assume you dealt with it by switching off and forgetting. And like, same way I did. So I was thinking, no, I'm, I get drunk and I party.

• 1:00:54Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  You would always go to your bed and you'd watch YouTube videos. Um, and you forget about it that way.

• 1:00:59Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  What, how did you deal with it?

• 1:01:01Steven Bartlett?

  Um, I think that, I think it comes, I think a lot of it, and I've only learnt this from speaking to you now. I think it comes from your inner dialogue.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:01:09Steven Bartlett?

  And that person that speaks to you in your head.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Steven Bartlett?

  And I think, so I think, you know, we talked about, it's important that you go and talk to somebody. You're talking to someone the whole time.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:17Steven Bartlett?

  You're talking to yourself.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:19Steven Bartlett?

  And whatever that person's saying back to you.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:01:21Steven Bartlett?

  Will shape your perspective on the situation. And only in hindsight do I think now, the guy that was talking back to me was very good at rationalising everything. And he, um, he was so, he, he had such an innate self-belief that he probably wasn't that scared of failure.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:39Steven Bartlett?

  So to him, it was all, all a bit of a game as opposed to it being real life. And although, as you know, as the business grew, there was more real consequences. I just never thought it was gonna go bad. I never, I never believed it was gonna go wrong, even in that, you know, and then I, I talk to you now about being addicted to the hard times. I think the guy talking, because I felt it, I felt the bad, the tough days, the moments thinking, I literally have, have had so many moments in those, in those early stages where I think.

• 1:02:04Steven Bartlett?

  Wow, what the fu- like, today is so bad. Surely there is no human being that can deal with this and not break? Like, I've literally said that to myself. I'm like, this is the worst day ever. You couldn't make this up. But that's the kind of tone that I'm taking in my head. It's like, this is so fucking bad. And do you know what I mean? It's not like, oh my god, I can't deal with this. It's, oh my god, this day is, this is, there's no way you can make this day worse. And then someone would come in or send me an email and make it worse, and I'd go, there you go. This is the fucking, this is the, but I'd also, that voice would be like, this is the test. Yeah. It would be like, it would be asking me back, can you deal with this? And then, you know, all you've got to do is get over one small little bump, and then you can do a little bit bigger one. And then you keep doing that for a couple of years. You can do hills and mountains, and then you almost feel a sense of like,

• 1:02:50Steven Bartlett?

  invincibility, I think, at a point. You become better and better at rationalizing bullshit. And I've seen the same in you, where the news you can take today results in very little reaction versus if I'd given you that news three, two years ago, you would have taken that shit home. You would have been thinking about it all night. You probably would have had a glass of wine. So you almost become, this is why I say the word like numb and weathered. We're both fucking a bit fucking haggard, yeah. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Honestly, I've got no emo- it sounds like I've got no emotions. I don't get excited, I don't get sad.

• 1:03:22Steven Bartlett?

  That's an interesting thing. I said this on the podcast about, you just stay in the, stay in the middle. You just, you get the best news in the world, you go, amazing. And then, but you don't feel shit. And then you get the worst news in the world, you think, oh fuck.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  You don't feel anything.

• 1:03:34Steven Bartlett?

  And you don't feel shit. And because you realise that it's much more, much healthier for you, but also the people around you, for you to just be unmoved.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's, that's where, that's where the running comes in. So you talk about like, you had that person telling you, you can go more, you can do more, this is a test. I didn't have that. My person was telling me, oh, but what about this, what about this, you know, so many like, what ifs and asking myself more questions. And like, from the running, you realise that like, I always say running is a mental battle. You can do that, you can do that, you can do that, you know, you can keep, keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. And that's like, that fell into, that, that kind of got me through, through everything, that you just keep going, it's, you know, everything's fine.

• 1:04:17Steven Bartlett?

  So you've come from, you've come from, so we've kind of traced your whole journey, though. You've come from a kid in York, in a, in a bar in York, who's very, very nervous, not really speaking much. You've gone through that process of dealing with the pressure that you, um, You were given um by this, the nature of this lifestyle, struggling to cope with that, struggling to cope with that.

• 1:04:41Steven Bartlett?

  Speaking out about your struggle, overcoming uh the, the, the destructive side of you, don't burying drunk Dom. Um coming out the other side where you've now turned it into a positive thing. You have a blog, you, you're raising money for charity. You're one of the most vocal people in terms of mental health issues and mental um uh sort of awareness that, that I, that I know now. You use every opportunity you can to use your sort of platform to talk on those topics. Um you're ra- you know, raising money currently for.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  Calm.

• 1:05:11Steven Bartlett?

  For Calm Charity, which is, what's Calm?

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Calm is the um campaign against living miserably. It is um focused on raising awareness of male suicide. Uh met suicide is the number one killer of men under the age of forty five. Um and obviously suicide comes from um guys not speaking out, having internalizing all their problems and, you know, looking for a way out. And that, that's what suicide is quite bluntly is, is people's escape route. It's their, it's how they, they end their problems. Um, yeah.

• 1:05:43Steven Bartlett?

  And you've, you've talked about how, you know, you, you absolutely love the job now. I think we've both come out the other end in a way. You know, we, we weathered the storm, the, the tough, tough times where most people would quit or they'd fail. And we've come out the other end and it's almost this like the promised land where, you know, we're in these pastures, there's like unicorns and. Um there's obviously all the bullshit every day, but it's nothing compared to the shit we went through. So it seems like we're in fucking, you know, heaven, whatever. But what is, what does the future look like for you? What are your, what are your big ambitions personally within social chain, et cetera?

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Future like, I think, you know, as I said, this, this social chain, I feel like it's me. I feel like this is my purpose. This is, this is who I am. This is like. Um, you know, I look, look around at the people here, you know, I feel like this is, this is the family we've built. Um I want this, out in this place to just go to where we, we want it to go. I want to create um the world, the world which, you know, uni- I want unicorns for everyone, I guess.

• 1:06:41Steven Bartlett?

  Unicorns for everybody.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Unicorns for everyone.

• 1:06:43Steven Bartlett?

  Unicorns for everybody here.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  You've heard it first. Um but I think that's, that's, you know, we, we know where we're going on a, on a company level. I think that's, that's also helped me a lot because really at first we never had a plan. We kind of winged it. And I think that. That was something that caused always a lot of discomfort. We didn't, we didn't know in ourselves who we were. And I think that, that always kept me up questioning like, where are we going? What is this business? Is it a business? And I think we, when we, when we decided on the media chain, social chain split, in my head, it made a lot more sense as like, this is who we are now. This is like questioning like, what we're actually doing here? Like, what is the business?

• 1:07:19Steven Bartlett?

  So you've got more clarity over what the, the business is, where it's going, what it, what its importance in the world.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Steven Bartlett?

  Um. We've obviously got an incredible group of people here. Now, I think this is probably the most understated part of why, um, social chain is so good, but also, uh, why we're so much happier. It's because we now have real, mature, incredibly effective, talented people in key roles. And these people are smarter than we are.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:45Steven Bartlett?

  Better than we are.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:46Steven Bartlett?

  They fill all of our weaknesses and more. They teach us, um, how to be better, um, entrepreneurs and leaders and, and managers and teammates.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  And we, we learned that from, we learned that because we, you know, you're, you're a control very, um, I, I don't like handing things over to people. Um, but we had to learn to. We had to learn, we had to learn that we can't do everything and that we're not the best at doing everything. Um, and I think that, you know, when, when I was like, you know, when Steve, when you first met me, I was in a suit. Um, and I thought when you talked to me about someone who runs a business, you have this idea of someone who's, who does, does everything. Um, and is very, you know, what everyone thinks someone who runs a business is, but reality is, it's like, great people, great, you, you, great people run the business, great people, great people, you know, that's how, what builds an amazing business.

• 1:08:35Steven Bartlett?

  It's the definition of a company, isn't it? A group of people.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's, it's not down to any individuals or down to anything. It's about having a great cohesive working family.

• 1:08:43Steven Bartlett?

  Starting eleven.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Starting eleven family, yeah. Person, where I want to go personally, um.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  I'm very happy. I know I've been very happy with who I am right now. I've got a couple of things I wanna do. I'm still feeling, I'm still finding out.

• 1:08:58Steven Bartlett?

  You're in a relationship as well and I really like her. She works here at Social Chain. And this is, this is the moment when I knew I wasn't just controlling you because I like her and I don't interfere in your relationship. So that's when I was like, okay, it's not me. It's, it's just that other one was in.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  She was in the.

• 1:09:13Steven Bartlett?

  Terrible.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I think I'm very open minded for where I'm going at the moment. Like I'm, I know, I know I'm on the right trajectory. I, I wanna, I'm doing more in the public space. I wanna do more in the public space. I think I can, I wanna make a difference. I think, I think that's, I think that's coming, coming back to the point of what makes me happy now is seeing people progress and people develop and people be happy. I think if I can, that's why I'm in, that's why I'm so passionate about mental health is because I can make a difference to people. And I think my, I wanna continue to do that. And I think that's where I'll go.

• 1:09:49Steven Bartlett?

  I, yeah, and I, you've, I'm gonna put the link in the, the podcast description for the, um, the com fundraiser that you're doing currently. So talk to me a little bit about that. You're, what are you doing? You're raising funds and you're, what are you doing? You're doing marathons?

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm doing 12 races over 12 months.

• 1:10:03Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Um, all different lengths, all different, kind of like sizes from Tough Mudder, which everyone knows about, but also some like really cool ones. Um, I did a 12K in France where I was like running through at midnight through the snow. Um, and then kind of the, the whole thing is leading up to the London, London Marathon in April. So that's kind of like the big thing.

• 1:10:25Steven Bartlett?

  April two, this year?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  April 23rd.

• 1:10:27Steven Bartlett?

  I might do it. I'll see what my schedule is saying, but I might do it.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  You've got means up there.

• 1:10:31Steven Bartlett?

  Now I'm gonna pull it. Um, listen, thank you so much for a few things. First thing is for being so tremendously open because it's not, it's not easy and it's a very selfless thing to do. It's, it's much easier and much more selfish just to like protect your ego and to, um, and to be a bit closed off. But I think one of the things I've, I've, I've learnt from you is, um, the importance of speaking and being honest with yourself and other people. I've really, really learnt that. I didn't often say that to you, but I've really, really learnt that. Um, and you've inspired a lot of people within the team now. You've gone from someone who, as you said at the start, was maybe a bit of a joke to people to now people look up to you, but they, not just that, they also seek advice from you on a private level. To deal with their own personal struggles and you've become a bit of a magnet, especially to the

• 1:11:16Steven Bartlett?

  the men within the business as the team's grown to nearly two hundred people now. As somebody you can come to who will, um, you know, be the ear, um, as the, the, the guy that you saw was to you. Um, and I think that's so important because there's just not enough men, especially in high positions or positions of leadership that are willing to be that open. I think that's something that I completely respect you for and, um, has been inspiring to me, but also, uh, thank you for the turnaround you made because, look, look, fucking, I don't think I could have done this alone with Dr. Dom and I think in sorting yourself out, you took a, you know, you really, really did me a massive, massive favour. You made my life so much easier, you, um,

• 1:12:01Steven Bartlett?

  you took the weight more with me, do you know what I mean? Took the, the strain of the business more with me and, um.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  No, I, I, I will, I will, I'll never forget that day. Like, I'm not saying it to you, I've not told you, uh, I don't know if I've made it, said it like a little bit, but like, that day, that, I don't, I don't know, I've said to people, I don't know whether I'd be here, not, not in social change, but alive. I've honestly felt that, I honestly, the way out, the route I was going down, I don't know whether I'd be here. It's like, when I say like, like, thank, like, thanks for, like, saving my life. Cause I honestly feel like I had no one telling me the truth.

• 1:12:38Steven Bartlett?

  I, I, yeah, as much as you say, and I appreciate that, but I, I, I can't get around, away from the fact that you very much did that yourself, like you, I, I don't know many people and I know a lot of friends who are going through a very similar thing to you. And none of them are admitting it, are, don't have the courage or the bravery to talk. And I admire the, I genuinely admire the bravery to say something. I honestly question whether I would, I don't think I would. And that's something that I struggle with, I'm like, and I, and I think, why not? And I think, how are you gonna do it? Like, if I was really, really struggling at some point in my life, would I, would I say, I just really, and I, I worry about that? Because that's even more dangerous, that's like the most dangerous thing.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  I, I, I've, I've spoken to.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Someone high up here, female, who we both, we both said the same thing. She's gone through, I think once you break and you feel yourself breaking, you never went back. And like what I said, what me and her have said is that we wanna, we want people not to be, have to break to, to realise that they can, there's something wrong with them.

• 1:13:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  And like, I, and that's what I think like is, you know, you,

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  if you haven't felt like that, you know, you haven't, like, I don't know if you've felt like you've broken or you felt like, maybe you've had that, like, maybe like earlier, like, early days you had that. And you've, you've had that feeling. Cause you, you said it to me as well, again, like, about the stress, stress threshold. Everyone's got that day where it was the worst day. And it was the worst moment in your life. And it keeps building up that, that was the worst day. And everything underneath that you can deal with. You can deal with all the shit that, that as long as it doesn't reach that threshold ever again. And like my fresh, I feel like my threshold now is so high for like, that moment when I felt like I was, I wanted to give up on the, the dream, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to, sell it all. I wanted to get rid of it because it was on top of me.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  And that, that bullshit was so, so much that I, I know now I can deal with everything.

• 1:14:37Steven Bartlett?

  On that note, um, just wanna say thank you for coming on the podcast. Again, your honesty is, um, is something I, I hope you never ever lose because I think honesty and that openness and the vulnerability is something that's rare. Um, is healing to a lot of people. So thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. All of the links to Dom's social channels and his, um, GoFund, is it GoFundMe?

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Everyday hero.

• 1:14:59Steven Bartlett?

  Okay. Uh, all, are all below in the podcast store and you can find them on my Twitter account as well. Um, do tweet me, do tweet Dom, watch your twitter dot Dom.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  At Dominic McGregor.

• 1:15:07Steven Bartlett?

  At Dominic McGregor. Um, and let us know what you thought of the podcast. And I'll see you again in chapter 11. Thank you.