UFC Fighter Michelle Waterson On Training the Mind and the Body

On today’s podcast, Ryan talks to champion MMA fighter Michelle Waterson about the philosophy of being a mother, a business owner, and a world renowned fighter. Known as “The Karate Hottie”, Waterson made her fighting debut in 2007 and is the former Invicta FC Atomweight Champion. In 2013 she joined the UFC and was later ranked the #1 women’s atom weight fighter in the world. She is currently ranked #7 in the Women’s Strawweight Division. This episode is brought to you by Trends. Trends is the ultimate online community for entrepreneurs and business aficionados who want to know the latest news about business trends and analysis. It features articles from the most knowledgeable people, interviews with movers and shakers, and a private community of like-minded people with whom you can discuss the latest insights from Trends. Visit trends.co/stoic to start your two-week trial for just one dollar. Today’s episode is also brought to you by Molekule. Molekule makes air purifiers that don’t just trap pollutants and impurities, but destroys them. Molekule’s air purifiers work in all sizes of rooms and are beautifully designed to match with any living space. For 10% off your first order, use promo code STOIC at Molekule.com. This episode also is brought to you by Native. Native makes amazing, all-natural deodorants, and they have some great new holiday-themed scents to make this time of year more festive. Native is risk-free to try, too. Every product has free shipping within the US, and free 30 day returns and exchanges. With service like that, it’s easy to see why Native has over 14,000 5 star reviews. Visit NativeDeo.com/stoic or use promo code STOIC at checkout to receive 20% off your first order—and be sure to order by 12/7 to receive everything by Christmas.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Michelle Waterson:Twitter: https://twitter.com/karatehottiemmaInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/karatehottiemma/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/karatehottiemma/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7umzXakvUNpkrXs27ZBx3wSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to The Daily Stoic, where each day we read a short passage designed to help you cultivate the strength, insight, wisdom necessary for living the good life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2000 year old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at dailystoic.com.

• 0:28Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's me, Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. My guest today is Michelle Waterson, one of the greatest mixed martial arts fighters in the world. And as it happens, as the Stoics would love to hear, a bit of a Stoic philosopher as well. I connected with Michelle on Instagram after I saw she'd posted about one of my books. You can follow her at @karatehottie. That's two Ts, MMA, Karate Hottie MMA. She's a great fighter. You've probably seen her on television. She's actually fought twice during the pandemic, which is pretty incredible. But I think she lives by the philosophy that Marcus Aurelius talks about when he says, "To face life like a wrestler dug in and

• 1:11Ryan Holiday?

  ready for sudden attacks." Between 2013 and 2014, she was ranked as the number one women's atomweight fighter in the world, which is pretty incredible. And right now, she's ranked number seven in the UFC, which is incredible. It was an honor to talk to her. Unfortunately, we couldn't do it in person. Michelle is also repped by Vayner like I am. So enjoy this interview where we talk Stoic philosophy, fighting, parenting, and greatness and mastery. It was an honor to talk to Michelle, and I think you'll like this one.

• 1:47Ryan Holiday?

  I was thinking about this, like, on the one hand, there's, it probably feels like there's nothing more different than, or further apart than fighting and philosophy. And yet, I actually think they are intricately intertwined.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 2:07Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I'm glad we're on the same page. And I think, I think one of the reasons I was, maybe I was drawn to your work, and I think you were maybe drawn to my work, is that the Stoics were fighters themselves. Like, when you read Seneca and Epictetus and Marx, they, they talk about wrestling and fighting and boxing as if it was the, the sort of sport they were drawing their metaphors from, just like we do today, which I think is so interesting.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think that it's kind of like, it's a balance, right? You, you need one in order to have the other. It's like, um, the mind and the body, they have to connect. And the best, the best way I know to connect my mind to my body is through physical pain. You know, physical is to, to get over something challenging physically, and, and then that forces my mind to mentally become stronger.

• 2:58Ryan Holiday?

  Because, because you, your mind has to override what your body wants to do? Or what do you mean?

• 3:05Speaker 01

  I would say, I, I would say both. I, I would say that, um, I would say that I don't think I would be as wise as I, as I believe I am right now if I hadn't been forced to face my fears in fighting.

• 3:23Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  And so every time I take a fight, I, I mean, I, I think that I've, I've learned what I needed to learn in order to, to be victorious, in order to win. And then, but there was always another lesson to be learned, whether I win or lose.

• 3:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, is, is, and I can only imagine, you fought, what, twice during the, the pandemic? Like, that it must have been lessons on top of lessons.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  The first fight from the pandemic, it was, it was strange because it kind of was almost as if it was like a hazy dream. It didn't, it didn't seem...

• 4:05Speaker 01

  All the lights and the and the crowd and the media, it wasn't, they weren't there. And so it kind of just seemed like for myself that I was just going through the motions. And I I I feel like my my performance reflected that. I I felt like I've had more entertaining uh sparring matches. I I couldn't get myself up to go because the crowd wasn't there, you know. Uh it just wasn't what was routine for me. And so, you know, uh uh coming off of that, the lesson that I had to learn was that I had to pull. I had to pull motivation from myself. I had to pull motivation in other ways. I had to figure out a way to um get fired up outside of external things.

• 4:47Ryan Holiday?

  Sure. Right, no, it must be weird. You train your whole life, the idea of a fight being in the octagon, cheering fans, the pre-fight ritual, the post-fight ritual, and then all of that goes away. How do you distinguish the fight from training, real life, from, you know, that that sort of that moment? That must be very strange.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. And then it kind of reminded me why I fight to begin with. Like, was it the crowd that I fought for or was it myself that I fought for? You know, and like try un- understanding that helped me get in the right mindset for the next fight.

• 5:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, that's interesting because like in my world, right? There's a big difference between writing and publishing, right? Like, writing is what you do yourself. No one's watching. It's the hard part. It's like the training, really. And then there's the publishing, which is the the ostensibly the fun part. It's the rewarding part. It's it's what they pay you for, right? Um, and and I remember, well, because I did a book in September and so it came out during the pandemic. And it felt so different than all the other books because you weren't doing events. You weren't doing in-person media. It had just felt so different. But on the other hand, it was almost it was almost better because it was sort of like, oh, back to work. You know what I mean? There wasn't like the build up and come down.

• 6:11Ryan Holiday?

  It was kind of just like, it was like another ordinary day of training. You know what I mean?

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm, as you're saying that, I'm just, I I I think about my fights and and and how you're paralleling them together is that.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  It's like all the stuff you do in the shadows that nobody sees.

• 6:30Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  These are the things that you can appreciate yourselves and the people, the loved ones and your family can appreciate because they see you in the grind, you know, day in and day out. And then, and then when you step into the octagon and you fight and you get your hand raised, it's that, that moment of gratification, that moment of, of, of exhilaration, right? But I also think about when I get my hand raised, what are the thoughts that go through my head? And a lot of times the thoughts that go through my head are all, is, is all the hard work that I put in leading up to that. Like, I don't think about, yes, like my hands being raised. I think about, man, like all those times sprinting up the hills, all those times that, you know, I, you know, I broke down in fight camp, all those times that I

• 7:15Speaker 01

  didn't think that I was going to be here because it was that battle when, that nobody saw.

• 7:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I remember Lance Armstrong told me once, he was like, I like riding my bike. They paid me to compete, right? Like, like he, he liked the training, the actually doing the thing. And actually, the least fun part was like the race. And as soon as the race was over, like he wanted to go home and go back to the thing. So, and it must be, it must be, I mean, obviously, uh, bike racing is painful, but, but you're literally getting punched in the face. Um, you know, like you have to actually like the training and the practice and the strategy of it more than those like five minutes in the ring because that's a deeply, it's literally a painful experience.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  I don't think I like it, uh, but I, I, I know that it's necessary. I don't know if that makes sense. Like, I don't, like, I, I, um, it's, it, it's grueling and it's hard. And there are moments, and, and don't get me wrong, I think that like, um, I've worked on my mental practice enough to, to embrace the process, you know, and to understand that that is kind of the meat of, of everything. And so, um, like, in a, in that way, I do enjoy it because I know the benefits that I'm going to reap from it, but I know that it's going to be a hell of a uphill battle for sure.

• 8:37Ryan Holiday?

  Well, so I was going to read you this quote. This is from one of the Stoic philosophers. His name is Panateus, and he says,

• 8:44Ryan Holiday?

  We must be similar to the athletes who are called "pancreatists." He says, "For just as they, when called to the contest, stand with their arms raised and stretched out and protect their head and face by opposing their hands as a rampart, and as all their limbs before the battle has begun are ready to avoid or deal blows, so the spirit and mind of the wise man on the watch everywhere and at all times against violence and injury ought to be alert, ready, strongly protected, prepared in time of trouble, never flagging in attention, never relaxing its watchfulness, opposing judgment and forethought like arms and hands to the strokes of fortune and the snares of the wicked, lest in any way a hostile and sudden onslaught be made upon us when we are unprepared and unprotected."

• 9:28Ryan Holiday?

  And you know what pancration is? It was like the ancient form of MMA. I just love this. The Stoics used over and over again this image of the philosopher as sort of the wrestler or the boxer who's sort of protected but also ready to go. What do you, how do you feel like your training has sort of shaped your philosophy of life?

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Because I'd rather be prepared than afraid. I'd rather, I'd rather have all the tools in my box that are readily available than, than be left in the dark and not know what to do. I think that's what fighting has taught me is, you know, life is unpredictable, life is unfair, life is painful and beautiful, you know, and, and you have to, you have to roll with the punches and you have to take the good with the bad. And, and a lot

• 10:36Speaker 01

  of the times, if you ignore the bad, you don't get to...

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Really enjoy the good as it was intended to be. Like if you're if if I I don't know how else to explain it other than like if you didn't earn your stripes, like the victory isn't isn't worth it, you know what I mean? Like if it's given if it's given to you, it's just kind of like, oh, yeah, like you you don't have as much pride in it as other rather than if you know how hard you've worked for it. And all those things I can translate into my life, into teaching my daughter, into into whatever I decide to do when I'm done fighting.

• 11:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I was thinking about that. It's like if it was easy, everyone would do it. And then it wouldn't matter that you did it. Do you know what I mean? Like if if it didn't require the training, if it didn't require sort of pushing through the pain, uh, if there weren't obstacles, then there'd be no scarcity and everyone would be a champion or everyone would be an author or everyone would be rich and successful. But it's it's almost that it's that it's hard is the is the whole point.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I and I I do believe that um us as humans um are all fighters, you know, um, and I do believe that sometimes we shy away from facing our battles because we're afraid of of of the outcome, whether it is failure or success or that it's going to be too hard or that you're going to be embarrassed or that you can't. And so instead of trying, uh, people just decide that they'd rather not see the outcome. And I think that is, um, you know, that's a shame because whether you win or lose, there is always something to be gained.

• 12:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I get this question. A lot of people go like, what's the biggest obstacle that you've ever faced? And I I always I'm always struck by that question because I think it it it's it shows that we kind of think about these things as something you do once. When it's like every day is an obstacle. Seneca says, uh, to live is to fight. Like every day you're waking up and shit does not go your way. It's not easy. It's not the way you want it to be. That's that's the grind, right? Like I I because for for me, like I like to run. And so one of the interesting things you'll hear from people is they're like, oh, are you training for a marathon or something? Like people can't even they can't even conceive of doing a thing not for. Some arbitrary outcome, you know what I mean?

• 13:11Ryan Holiday?

  Even even just even just the ideas like, no, no. The grind is the the grind is the challenge. Like, I'm doing it for the grind. I like the grind of it.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  You know, honestly, if I'm if I'm being honest, I think that that might be something I will struggle with when I'm done fighting. Because I've always had something in front of me, you know? Like, I've always had a goal in front of me. And so when I'm done fighting, it's like, OK, now it's going to be up to me to put something in front of me to overcome. You know, so because when you fight, you sign the dotted line. Boom, that's the date. You got to get ready. They close the door behind you and you can't get out. So but yeah, um, I don't know. I, uh, I I wish that more people would just not be so afraid of the outcome and and to just to just go for it, you know?

• 14:03Ryan Holiday?

  Do the contracts motivate you? Like, is is the idea of like, I have my next fight? And that's the thing. Is that part of what keeps you going?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  I think it's helpful to have to have a date. So it's kind of not it's not in the gray. It's like, this is set in stone. This is going to happen regardless if you're ready or not, it's going to happen. You know, so for me, it's helpful. And like I was telling you, I think that once I'm done fighting, the the struggle for me is going to be, OK, putting a goal in front of me and and being self motivated to hit the deadline and not let it just pass and to not just push it out and to not to not just kind of let life happen because it does.

• 14:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I I've experienced that as a writer. It's like there's a certain benefit. Like, so people go, should you self publish? Should you traditional publish? One of the benefits of traditionally publishing is that you sign the the line. And if you don't deliver it, they they come take the money back, you know? And it's a bad thing. And and there is a certain it's like when when you are self publishing or when you're not running for a when you're not training for a marathon, there it actually requires more discipline because you have to wake up every day and do it for no. Like no urgency and that creation of urgency can be really difficult. So my, it's funny because I was saying not having a goal, but one of the reasons I always

• 15:27Ryan Holiday?

  try to sell my next book before the book comes out is so it's like, it would be the equivalent for you. It's like you've lined up your next fight before you know whether you've won or lost this one. So you never, so you can't psych yourself out based on the, the outcome.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's already said and done and you just gotta go.

• 15:49Ryan Holiday?

  And, and I'm, I'm fascinated with the idea of like a fighting weight, right? Like no other profession do you have to be like, do they go like you, you have done the training or you haven't done the training, right? Obviously making weight doesn't determine whether you win the fight or not, but there's like a qualification level in the, in the NFL. It's like, once you sign your contract and you're on the team, like, yeah, sure, you can get cut, but they're not like check, there, there's no demonstrable proof whether you've been training or not. And, but, but I love the metaphor of a fighting weight. Like one of the reasons I'm always, always try to be working on a book is I've, I have this fear that if I stop writing, it will be too hard to start again. Do you know what I mean?

• 16:30Ryan Holiday?

  Like getting out of shape and then having to get back in shape must be insane.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. And I think, um, I'm just speaking for myself in this case, but I'm kind of like an all or nothing type person. So I kind of shoot myself in the foot in that sense. Cause like I am, I get into incredible shape and, and you know, I've been fighting for over 10, I've been fighting for over 13 years. And so I've, each time I get better and better, but I still like, it's either all or nothing for me. So I get in incredible shape. I have a great diet. I have, I exercise and I'm so laser focused on my fight. And then when the fight's over, it's like, like a sigh of relief and I just take all this pressure off my shoulders and then I go eat a big burger and pound down a beer. And I'm like, what am I doing to myself?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  But, um, so really definitely understanding that balance has been something that I've had to, you know, force myself to, to really try to overcome on my own. But for sure, like you said, I always tell people making weight for a fight.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  It's like the rite of passage, like you said, it's like, once you make the weight, then I know that my, I'm, I'm serious about this fight and so is my opponent, like, and um, so to me, that's the rite of passage, just the fight before the fight. And so like, it's a, it's a mental, it's a mental fight for sure, because you don't want to be there. You're like, why am I doing this? When I'm just going to replenish myself as soon as I get off the scale.

• 17:59Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  But for me, it's, it's um, it's that one extra mental push that I, that I need right before I go into battle.

• 18:10Ryan Holiday?

  That expression you use, the, the fight before the fight is a beautiful one, because I feel like that's sort of what life is, right? It's like, there's all the things you think you want to do, and so you focus on that, but really, there's, there's the, the buy-in beforehand, which is like, the making weight, or in my case, it's like, I want to write a book, but if I haven't researched the material, then I'm not going to make the weight, right? You know what I mean? I'm going to sit down and write, but I'm disqualified before, before it even starts. So it's this tricky thing of like, what is the, what is the, what's the, the entry fee to do whatever it is that you're trying to do? And a lot of people just aren't willing to pay it.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yes. Because it's hard, you know, and, and, and like, I was just thinking about that today. I was like, man, I'm going to get, get on the show with Ryan, and what do I think about, you know, everything that's going on in life and this and that? And I guess just for me being a fighter, I'd like, I've realized that um, I'd rather be a participant than a spectator. You know, I, I love, I love watching and seeing other people, but for sure, for myself, I would rather be participating. And I think that you get the most out of participating. You know, even like, even if it's reading a book, like, when I read a book, I can, I can take from it what I want to take from it, you know?

• 19:29Ryan Holiday?

  Well, that's the, the Theodore Roosevelt thing, like, the man in the arena, that, that's what counts, right? Like, are you in the arena or not in the arena? And I think a lot of people spend their lives not in the arena. It's, it's easy to be the critic, it's easy to have opinions, but like, where are you actually putting your ass on the line?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  And I honestly feel for the most part, when you do put your ass on the line, you're less of a critic, because you know, you know what it takes to get through all of that stuff. You're, you're more supportive, you're more sympathetic.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  You know, like, I don't know how else to explain it other than that. Like, I will always have respect for my opponents because I know what it takes to step inside the octagon.

• 20:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, there's a, there's a kinship for people who have crossed the desert, whatever that desert is, right? Like, you either fought in the octagon, you've published a book, you've been through some public scandal, you've fought in a war, like, w- once you get to the other side, there's a certain thing that only people who have done that know. And, uh, yeah, it, it helps make you feel connected with people. Do you think that one of the reasons it, it does that is that it's, it, it, it suppresses ego? Because you know how hard it is?

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. It, it, that's why I like fighting too, because it can humble you real quick. Like, we always have these guys coming to the gym and they're all, like, tatted up, big, muscular, and they're just, they're really boastful and they think they're hot shit. And, um, uh, you know, they get put in their place real quick because there's always somebody bigger and badder than you, you know?

• 21:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, the, uh, the, the gyms I've been into, you tend to find that the best people, especially in martial arts, maybe it's, maybe basketball's different or other sports, but I've always been amazed at how, like, the, the real, like, killers are the quietest and the friendliest. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, if you walked into a, a, a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu gym, it, it would be intimidating and scary, you've never been there before. But the person who would, who would probably come over and talk to you and help you and introduce you to it would probably not be another new person, but it'd be the person who is the most trained or experienced.

• 21:45Ryan Holiday?

  There's like, there's supposed to, a humility and an empathy that comes, I think, from being really good at a really hard thing.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I think, at least the school that I'm at with the jujitsu, they pair up the highest ranking students with the lowest ranking students because they need that balance. The highest ranking student has the control, you know, and the humility in order to kind of tame this new green fighter that's just coming in and trying to show the world how good they are, you know?

• 22:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, the few times that I've ever been hurt rolling have come from people who were not very good. You know, who were like at or a little bit below my level that felt like they had something to prove. And that's like the most dangerous thing.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  It is. It's the most scariest thing to watch like two amateurs sparring because it's like a car wreck. It's just like, especially when, you know, you have professional fighters on the sidelines watching you because now they're like, oh, now their energy's all ramped up and they're ready to go. And they, like you said, they want to prove themselves, you know?

• 22:55Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think that's what's so dangerous about ego is that it's not, it's thinking about everything but what's important, right? So it's like your identity, you think that like, oh, if I don't do well, it says something about me. No, hurting someone because you're a fucking idiot, that says something about you. And so you get sort of focused, you end up flailing about. And I imagine they hurt themselves more often than other people as well.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And I'm not going to lie, there are still times, you know, where in areas, certain areas of different martial arts, where I am still very green, you know? Where I, you know, I will be rolling with my professor and he, just by the pace of my breath, he can tell that I have no control over what I'm doing. So he'll like, he'll just remind me like, breathe, you know, slow down. Like, this isn't a fight, you can calm down. So it's, like I said, that's why I love fighting. It's so humbling to know that. I honestly feel like the more I learn, the less I know. Like, it's just...

• 24:05Ryan Holiday?

  To go back to where we started, this idea of like, you know, the mind having to sort of rule over the body. I think there's a part of that in fighting. I was just, I went deer hunting last week and there's this interesting thing when you do anything like fighting or hunting or whatever, where all these sort of primal instincts or biological, you know, whether it's hormones or adrenaline or whatever, and you realize like, oh, like, my body wants to do one thing, my emotions want to do one thing, but what I actually need to do is a different thing. And that's where that sort of mastery of oneself becomes so important. So your point about like, oh, my body wants to be worked up and nervous

• 24:47Ryan Holiday?

  and rushed, but my mind has to actually stop and slow that whole thing down. That's what training's all about.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so when you went hunting, what did you feel that you were?

• 25:01Ryan Holiday?

  Every time I go hunting, it doesn't, and I almost never hunt for anything dangerous, like this is a deer and I'm in a deer stand. So there's no chance you're gonna get hurt. But like, when it comes, every time, and I think it gets less each time, but every time you get that sort of flutter of adrenaline, like this is the hunt, like this is the thing. And that, I think there's a, there's a beauty in that because it's connecting you to a part of the human experience that we've been doing for hundreds of thousands of years. But then there's also a part where you know, like, that adrenaline isn't gonna make me do this thing that I have to do well. Like, if you're jerking all over the place, you're gonna miss, right? You're gonna, you're gonna pull the trigger too quickly, or you're, you

• 25:42Ryan Holiday?

  know, you're not gonna do what you have to do. And so you have to be able to do exactly what you said, which is breathe and relax and go to the, you have to revert to the training, or, or you're gonna, you're gonna end up, in your excitement to do a thing, prevent yourself from doing it well.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, um, my husband tells me all the time it's not natural to stand in front of somebody when they're trying to take your head off, you know, like,

• 26:08Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  You know, it's, it's kind of like that fight or flight. Um, it's, it's, it's natural to want to, to survive, to stay alive. And so you wouldn't face somebody and fight them if you were trying to survive. So you have to like physically train yourself to see these punches coming without flinching, without closing your eyes, without backing up. And it almost seems kind of backwards, but it's like the safest place to be is in front of somebody with your hands up, looking at them versus pulling away, which a lot of people do, like when they go to kick or punch, they do it and then they pull themselves out at the same time. And they're putting themselves in more danger, thinking that they're more safe, but when they're, they're really safe inside the fire.

• 26:47Ryan Holiday?

  Right, yeah, you wouldn't, you also wouldn't be observing any of these arbitrary rules if it was a real fight, right? So you have to, you have to take like what your body wants to do and mesh it up against with what the situation demands that you do.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:02Ryan Holiday?

  Like, it's like when you're golfing, right? Like you hit the golf ball, your first instinct is to look up and see where the ball went, which is, which is how you end up jerking your swing. And so the, the, the, the real act of discipline in golf is not how hard you can hit the ball, but are you strong enough to keep your ego and curiosity from immediately following the ball?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  I guess, I guess that's what I've been doing wrong all this time. I suck at golf and that's exactly why. I'm like, boom, where'd it go?

• 27:34Ryan Holiday?

  Right. Yeah, it's like, uh, yeah, it's just so funny. It's like you're, almost all things, right? You're training yourself to do it in the most, in the least natural way. Um, even writing, right? Like you would never write, you never speak the way that you write, but you, uh, if you want to reach an audience is what you have to do.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:58Ryan Holiday?

  So what is your, what is your like training regimen look like? Like what, uh, let's do this. What is the difference between like Michelle training for a fight and Michelle not training for a fight? Are those very different routines?

• 28:12Speaker 01

  I would say so because, you know, I wear so many hats, you know, I'm a wife, I'm a mom, I'm a business owner and a professional fighter. And so when I'm in fight camp, I put a lot of those things on the back burner because that's not my priority. My priority is to win the fight and you have to be like laser focused in order to do so. Super strenuous training regimen. I probably train anywhere between three and five times a day.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  So it's like, I probably do three to five runs a week, two, two times strength and conditioning. And then every morning we have group practices which consist of, you know, big gloves sparring, MMA sparring, wrestling and MMA sparring. And then we have technical training for jujitsu three times a week. And then I do probably three or four private sessions for stand-up training.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  And then probably once or twice, well, once I meet with my sports psychologist physically. And then every day, you know, getting dinner ready and doing stuff a mom would do. But when I'm out of camp, it's, I'm probably training five times a week. And really taking care of other things that I did put on the back burner, working on the business, trying to, trying to build my brand, trying to, you know, connect the dots of things outside of fighting that will kind of help me in the future.

• 29:57Ryan Holiday?

  I was talking to Wright Thompson, the sports writer, he writes for ESPN, he's amazing. And he's profiled like Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. And we were talking about like, is it possible to be world-class at something and not neglect those other obligations? You know what I mean? And, and I feel like one of the things that I really strive to do is to be balanced in this. Like, if you told me I could be a much better writer, but be a much worse father, I don't think I would take that trade. But a lot of people would, you know? And so sometimes I wonder, is that, is that fear? Not, because we're, obviously, it's such an easy part.

• 30:38Ryan Holiday?

  But the point is like, is my, is my lack of singular focus leaving potential gains on the table? And I'm afraid of doing that? And I'm actually just using family as an excuse? Or is, is that, is that actually the real struggle? To be able to do all these things well?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  I, I guess it just depends on where your priorities lie. Like if, do you want to balance the life? Or do you want to be, you know, a master? You know, because there, there's this book that I read and he, it's called relentless. And he talks about that. He talks about how, um, when you, when you look at any champion, the reason why they're champions is because they have all of their focus in this one thing. But in doing so, the things, other things in their life fall off the wayside because all of their focus is there, you know? And, um, that is something that I've always struggled with. My dad used to always give me so much grief when I was younger because he was like, you put so much on your plate and you think you can carry it all. And eventually things just start rolling off

• 31:43Speaker 01

  or you just drop the whole plate completely, you know? And so that's why I think for me is like, it's important to understand that when I'm in fight camp, that that is my singular, um, you know, priority. Uh, and I have an amazing, um, team behind me in order to let me do that. My husband is super understanding. You know, my mother helps a lot. I have coaches that, um, you know, are here for me, teammates. And so we make it work. But, um, I also do have a sense of guilt because there are things that I let fall behind that I would love to be responsible for. Like, you know, my daughter's schoolwork and, you know,

• 32:26Speaker 01

  helping her do this and do that and working on the business and the finances and all that stuff. So when I'm done fighting, I, I shift my focus to that.

• 32:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I think it's about balance. And, and that doesn't mean you do everything. Mediocre, but it's, you know, like so Aristotle talks about the golden mean, right? He's like sort of between fear and recklessness is courage. Right? And so courage is actually the middle ground like we tend to think like settling in the middle is bad or that the middle ground is the is the less good way. But but actually, when you see it that way, oh, you're like, yeah, of course, there's there's something beyond courage that's actually dangerous. And sometimes I think about that as far as like drive or, you know, you know, wanting to be great at something or professional ambition is it's like there's

• 33:19Ryan Holiday?

  there's the there's some people don't have enough. And then some people maybe have so much that it that it actually is kind of more of a curse than a blessing. You know, I mean, like, like, there's plenty of people who have won two or three NBA championships that seem to be normal people, you know? You don't you don't you don't have to be Michael Jordan to be great. And maybe maybe maybe actually, Michael Jordan's greatness has nothing to do with that extremeness. Maybe it's also all these other factors. So we can learn, we can sometimes learn the wrong lesson from these people, too.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I just just listening to your most recent book. That's kind of what I got out of it was a lot of these like, you know, philosophers, I feel like kind of like got some of them, they got ahead of themselves. Right? And so it was just like the momentum just took them. And it was like, it kept going so fast that they couldn't get out of it, even if they wanted to. It was like they've reached this pinnacle. And then it was just like now they're on a roll and they couldn't get out. They couldn't take themselves out of the situation. And it was it was to their demise a lot of the time, you know?

• 34:28Ryan Holiday?

  No, that's a that's a great question. It's like, are you in charge of your career? Or is your career in charge of you?

• 34:36Ryan Holiday?

  And I guess you see that with fighters, like some fighters who don't know when to retire, some fighters who don't know which fights, you know what I mean? Like, you can, if you're driven, you can just say yes to everything. And it's actually, it takes more discipline to be strategic. Or to say, "I really want to do it, but I'm gonna wait." Or, that's actually a harder thing to do.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I would say, like, especially in the MMA world, that's where it is. That's where it lies a lot of the times. And I'm not sure if it's because the ego comes in and it's that fighter spirit that says, "I'll take a fight anywhere, anytime, I don't care who it is."

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Instead of pausing and taking a moment to look at your fight career as an, like, as an actual career. Because your fight career is so short-lived, how are you going to maximize this space in order for it to launch you into your next chapter of life? And don't just think, you know, instantly and actually allow, you know, your choices to be strategic in the long run without feeling like you're sacrificing your... I don't know how else to explain it, because a lot of fighters will say, "Well, I'm a true fighter, so I'll take a fight anytime." Well, yes, I'm a true fighter too, but I also understand that there's their strategy to this whole thing, you know?

• 36:01Ryan Holiday?

  People who have sort of that combative personality, like fighters in general struggle with that. It's like, should you get in every argument possible? Or should you only get in arguments over the things that matter, right? Like, you can't, Churchill has a line, he's like, "You'll never get anywhere if you stop and throw rocks at every dog that barks." You know, like, you have to keep going, you have to go to where you're wanting to go. But people are gonna be coming after you, or there's incidents, or... You have to know, I mean, not to get too political, but this is clearly something Donald Trump struggles with, right? And Hillary Clinton baited him in that first, in one of those early debates too, where it's like, if you're someone who can never lose a contest

• 36:45Ryan Holiday?

  and has to dominate in every situation, it becomes extremely hard for you not to fall for traps or not to get sucked into stuff that you should actually be above.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Because you're just emotionally invested in it.

• 36:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to win, you want to win more than you want to, you know? I understand, I totally understand that. Um, gosh, what was I think it's something it's like something my coach said it's along the same lines because he was saying, you know, gosh, I forgot who it was that he was talking about, but he was talking about a guy that was in battle and was getting shot with these arrows, but he kept coming forward and he didn't pull the arrows out because if he was if he would pull the arrows out, he would bleed out and he wouldn't be able to finish his battle. So it's like you gotta, you gotta let those shots come and you gotta keep going forward.

• 37:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, especially in life when momentum is so important. And if you're if every time you stop to deal with this, or every time you stop to get sucked into that, what you're losing is your forward momentum, which is really the important place. It is, it must be hard, though. You're right, like, fighting is such a strange career, and it's over so quickly. How do you, how do you think strategically about where you want to go when it also feels like you have a window that's closing?

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it I mean, it I think it's a hard thing to balance. And it's, it's also one of those things, too, like, it's such a, such a dangerous sport that you can't be one foot in and one foot out because that's when you get hurt, you know. So you have to be a hundred percent committed, but you also have to have a plan. You have to have a plan. You know, if that plan doesn't come out how it does, at least you put something together.

• 38:31Ryan Holiday?

  No, Eisenhower has this great line, he says, um, uh, uh, plans are worthless, but planning is everything.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, I like that.

• 38:41Ryan Holiday?

  And I think that's similar. I mean, it's, you know, Tyson's line, like, everybody has a plan to get punched in the face. You have to be able to pivot and change that plan. But if you walk into the ring, or into a new profession, or to life, without some plan, you're just going to be reeling all the time. And, and you're going to be reactive all the time because you don't, I, I, when people talk about doing books, and they're like, I'm gonna sit down and figure it out. It's like, how will you know if you got there? You, you can't. Nobody gets in the car and says, "I gotta go somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I'll figure it out while I'm driving." Like, that's a great way to gloss.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Or like, or go shooting without a target, you know? Like, what are you gonna shoot at? So, yeah.

• 39:28Ryan Holiday?

  It's so paradoxical. It's like, you have to, you have to know the target, you have to know what you're doing. And then, you know, Zen and the Art of Archery, it's like, also, the target is worthless. Don't think about the target. And yet, you actually have to have both of these totally contradictory philosophies in your head at the same time.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  That's something that I was able to learn, I would say, in my last couple of fights. I remember talking to my coach, Coach Jackson, and telling him how the pressure was getting to me. I was so close to the top to fight for the belt, and all I needed to do was to win this fight. If I won this fight, I was going to be able to fight for the belt. And this was my moment. Like, I'm towards the end of my career, and everything is riding on this one fight. And so, every day when I got up to go train, that was what was on my mind, was like, "I have to win this fight. I have to beat her."

• 40:29Speaker 01

  And in having that type of mentality, it stifled me. I wasn't, I was rigid. I wasn't, it was coming from a place of eagerness, instead of a place of, like, wanting. And I ended up losing the fight. I remember talking to my coach about it, and he was like, he was like, "You have to think about yourself as if you were the sun." And he explained it in a way that, if I'm the sun, I am everything to all these planets. These planets orbit me, and I give life to these planets.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  But in the bigger scheme of things, how many, you know, trillions of suns are there in the galaxy? So you are everything and nothing all at the same time.

• 41:19Ryan Holiday?

  That's absolutely beautiful. I love that. It's like if you're doing a book and you're like, "Okay, I have to sell this many copies to hit this spot in the list, and then I have to do this, and I have to do this." I try to remind myself, it's like, even though that's not taking a lot of mental energy, it's taking 1% of my mental energy, and the margin for error here is probably smaller than 1%. So the idea, it's almost arrogant to think, like, in your case, it's like, you're like, "So I gotta beat this person, so then I can beat this person, and then if I do that," you know, you're getting ahead of yourself is really what you're doing, which you can't afford to do.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, by putting it in that way, it kind of put my mind at ease, because it allowed me to train my hardest, because I was, I was the scent, like, I was trying to achieve greatness. But at the same time, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Like, so, like, it takes that pressure off, because at the end of the day, like, we're just all gonna be dust.

• 42:25Ryan Holiday?

  Or it's also, the way I'm hearing it is like, you already are great. So really, the training is helping you realize your greatness, as opposed to, "If I do X, Y, and Z, then I will have a chance to be great." It's like, no, I actually just have to be what I already am, and what I already am is enough. And that's a much more confident place to come from also.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. And a truer place to come from. Like, it's no longer like approving, like, I'm no longer try, like you were saying, trying to be somebody or to do something, like, I am just being me. And when you can be in the present moment, then that's the best place to be in a fight, is in the zone, in the present, you know?

• 43:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, you have to... Yeah, and that's when I wrote my book on stillness. To me, that idea, what that thing you're talking about from your coaches, that's getting you to a place of stillness, where instead of feeling eagerness, or desperation, or fear, or ego, or any of those things which are not helpful emotions, you're replacing it with like, a centeredness and a fullness, which is a much stronger emotion to come from.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And it, it, I, it's easier said than done, for sure.

• 43:48Ryan Holiday?

  Of course.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? It's easier said than done. It's like, it's a constant battle. And even if you've conquered it once, does it mean that it's gonna overtake you again? You know?

• 43:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's like, you could have conquered it every day, except for three seconds before you went into the fight.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:04Ryan Holiday?

  And, and that's, it's, can you do it when it counts, is what matters?

• 44:09Speaker 01

  That's what matters, yeah. Like, that, those, those are the minutes that count. So, that's the hard part.

• 44:17Ryan Holiday?

  My last question for you is about that idea of coaching. I think people probably think that a profession like yours is a solitary profession, but you talked about being on a team, and you talked about having a coach. How does, how does that work?

• 44:33Speaker 01

  I, I think,

• 44:37Speaker 01

  it is an individual sport. Like, at the end of the day, when I, when I step inside the octagon, it is me and my opponent. And it is up to me to make the right decisions in order to be victorious. But, everything leading up to that point requires a team. And, and I have an amazing team. I have a jiu-jitsu coach, I have an MMA coach, I have a stand-up coach. And Coach Jackson is kind of like, he, he is kind, I would say, he's a philosopher. Like, he, he makes fighting, he, he makes fight problems, like...

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Into concepts that you can grasp across the board. Whether it's stand up or ground or mentality in or outside of the cage. So that's what Coach Jackson's really good at. Coach Wink, you know, a stand up guy. And it's funny because Coach Jackson is very compassionate and talkative and, you know, very, he sees things very differently. And Coach Wink is like very cold and harsh and just straight into the point. And it's great because they just, they balance each other out. And my husband, you know, he's, he's a real pivotal part in my, in my fights because he is always with me.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  So he sees when I'm burnt out. He sees when I'm overworked. He sees when I'm not overworked. He sees it. He knows if I'm, if I'm pretending to be, to not want to do work or if I really can't do work. And, and it all matters. It all matters. And then I have a sports psychologist who works with me to get myself mentally prepared for the fight. And it all has to align, like you said.

• 46:26Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and, and it's funny, like I imagine as you've gotten better, you've actually gotten more coaches. Like, so it's this weird thing where as you get better and better at the thing, you actually find yourself more and more of a student. Like, Epictetus says, "You can't learn that which you think you already know." And Spoke said, "The greatest enemy to progress is conceit." It's like, the more you think you've got it, the, the more complacent you get. Whereas if, if as you get better, you bring more and more people along with you who show you what you don't know, who are adding new elements to your game, then the opposite is happening.

• 47:08Ryan Holiday?

  There's always something to reach for, always something to, to struggle with and get better from.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to, you have to humble yourself and always be the student. I was, it's just funny that you said, I was just telling my daughter this because I've been helping her with her homework and she thinks she knows the answer when obviously the answer is wrong. And I was like, "Aria."

• 47:28Speaker 01

  I told her, I said, "Only a fool knows everything," is what I told her, you know? And she was like, "What?" It was crazy, but I was like, "It's okay to not know the answer," is what I explained to her. I said, "If you do know the answer, that's good, but don't, don't let your pride get the best of you if you don't know the answer." You know, I'd rather you actually, you know, listen, open your ears, and actually try to, to, to consume something that is going to have you understand it, you know?

• 47:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I mean, the entire system of science, the, the discipline of science is around the idea of like, "I don't know, I'm gonna put a hypothesis out there, and then I'm gonna get a, kinda, I'm going to go try to disprove that hypothesis." So, progress comes from humility and curiosity together.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I also told her too, I said, "I love that you're, that this is your guess of what it is, and I think it's great that you have an opinion of what it is, but just because it's your opinion doesn't make it right." Like, you know, like, it's, it's your opinion, and that's a great starting point, and then we gotta, we gotta grow from there, you know what I mean? And so, um, yeah, for sure, like I was telling you earlier, the, the more, the more I learn, the more I feel like I don't know. And I, I, I tell that, I was struggling for a while to, to own my own space, and I was talking to my, um, sports psychologist about that,

• 48:58Speaker 01

  because I grew up, like, in a, in a traditional, you know, you know, Asian home, and my, my father was a military background, and so there was always order, you know, even in, in martial arts, there's order. White belt, yellow belt, you know, purple belt, like, these, these belts, there's a pecking order, and I just always felt like, because I hadn't, you know, become the, the, the champ of the UFC yet, that I didn't have the right to, to be confident.

• 49:26Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  That I didn't have the right to, to, to walk amongst the greats, to be spoken amongst the greats, and I was telling him that, telling him that, that I needed to do this, this, and this, in order to, to be called a champion, in order to feel like I've earned it. And he looked at me and he said,

• 49:47Speaker 01

  When, you know, Michael Jordan is considered the greatest of all time. You know, when he was at his peak, do you think that there were still things that he needed to work on on a daily basis? And I was like, of course, you know, he probably practiced even more. And he was like, so why can't you be great and still be working on yourself?

• 50:08Ryan Holiday?

  Right. And feel good about yourself as you're doing it?

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:14Ryan Holiday?

  No, that's, that's right. It's, um, it's like, obviously, anytime you're doing something new, you're not going to know whether you can do it or not because you've never done it before. But you have to be able to draw confidence from what you've done before and from your sort of inherent innate qualities, you know, your, your work ethic and your creativity and your perseverance and your endurance. So that, to me, that's where, that's what helps me hold my head up high. It's not, oh, I've sold this many books or I've done this or that. It's like, hey, like, I know I don't quit. I love your talk.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 50:49Ryan Holiday?

  That's amazing. No, I know I don't quit shit. I know I learn quickly. You know what I mean? The confidence is on the attributes, not the achievements.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Absolutely. This is Douglas.

• 51:00Ryan Holiday?

  That's amazing. Well, that's the perfect place to stop. Douglas, clearly, it's Douglas's time. And, uh, is that a Great Dane?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:10Ryan Holiday?

  I love it. Well, Michelle, thank you so much. I'm glad we finally got to meet. We'll have to do this again in person when, uh, when that stuff becomes possible again.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. I think that would be great. And, you know, as I'm listening to your, to your most recent book, I'm thinking that a Netflix series is in order.

• 51:28Ryan Holiday?

  I'll take it. Yeah, we'll, uh, we'll have to make that happen.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:33Ryan Holiday?

  All right, see ya.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Have a good one.

• 51:35Ryan Holiday?

  You too. Bye.

• 51:38Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. It's incredible to think that these episodes have been listened to more than 3 million times. If you could do us a huge favor and just leave a quick review of the podcast on iTunes, Google Play, or whatever you're listening to this on, we'd really appreciate it. The reviews help with visibility and help bring Stoicism to even more people. Thanks again. Talk soon.