#2513 - Dean Radin

Dean Radin, PhD, is Chief Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS), Associate Distinguished Professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies, and co-founder and chairman of the neuroengineering company Cognigenics. His latest book is “The Science of Magic: How the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality.”www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/750262/the-science-of-magic-by-dean-radin-phd/www.deanradin.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Switch today at https://www. Visible.com for just 25/mo. Or Save $10 on your first month of Visible+ Pro with code ROGAN. This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Training my day, Joe Rogan Podcast my night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Thank you for being here.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  Good to be here.

• 0:14Joe Rogan?

  I'm excited to talk to you. Did you maybe manifest this conversation somehow?

• 0:19Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 0:20Joe Rogan?

  I've seen a bunch of your talks online and the, first of all, let's start from the beginning. Like, what is your background?

• 0:31Speaker 02

  I thought I'd give you a 40, 45-year arc.

• 0:37Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  In about three minutes.

• 0:39Joe Rogan?

  Perfect.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Because then there's a lot of places you can get into it. So I started out as a musician, violin, up until about halfway through college, and then I realized to be a musician means you have to be an athlete, because you're making your living with your body. No one told me that up through, until I finally decided, I don't think I want to make my living with my body, because I've never been very strong. And more importantly, you also need to have a lot of stamina, and I didn't have that.

• 1:08Joe Rogan?

  And you weren't interested in gaining it?

• 1:10Speaker 02

  I couldn't. I have a genetic mutation that created, like most people, when they exercise, you feel really good afterwards. I feel really exhausted. And I never understood why until many years later, I realized that I have something called Gilbert's Syndrome, which is a mutation of a liver enzyme, and you have no recovery time.

• 1:34Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36Joe Rogan?

  Is there anything they can do for that?

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Other than something like genetic engineering, which I've never heard anybody try, yet, the answer is no.

• 1:44Joe Rogan?

  I've never heard of that condition before, I don't think.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's, there's some missing enzymes, and more importantly, the bilirubin, which is unconjugated bilirubin, you have way too much of it. So there's an upside and a downside. The downside is that there, you can't recover from exercise quickly, and so there's a lot of fatigue that happens. The upside is that unconjugated bilirubin is an antioxidant. It's one of the most natural antioxidants, so my cardiovascular system is like a 20-year-old.

• 2:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:18Joe Rogan?

  So you got your pros and your cons with this.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever tried exercising in very small doses, like throughout the day?

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Well, I walk every day, so that's my primary exercise.

• 2:31Joe Rogan?

  That's always great exercise.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  If I walk too fast, too hard, I will feel it for the next three or four days.

• 2:38Joe Rogan?

  Wow. So too fast, too hard, too long?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43Joe Rogan?

  So what if you do like two pushups? And then just do two pushups like four hours later? And then two pushups like four hours later?

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can do that, yeah.

• 2:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  I can do seven pushups.

• 2:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, maybe that's the move. Maybe the move is just make yourself do things very lightly throughout the day, just to keep your bone mass and all that

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02Joe Rogan?

  good stuff that we lose when we get older.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:07Joe Rogan?

  You know, but it sounds like there's a pro. The cardiovascular benefit's pretty sweet.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. So when you get to a certain age, your doctor says, let's take a cardiac calcium scan to see what your artery's doing. And the range is from zero, so they don't see anything in there, up to 100 where you're basically about to die. So I, my doctor did, said, does do that because your cholesterol's like off, it's way too high. And I have zero.

• 3:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  And say, well, how could you have zero? Because I'm 74. I should not be zero, but I do, and it's because of this.

• 3:44Joe Rogan?

  You look really good for 74.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:47Joe Rogan?

  You do. You, you look like maybe 15, 20 years younger than you're supposed to look.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's the other advantage of this particular mutation is longevity.

• 3:58Joe Rogan?

  Damn, son. Well, that's good.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:01Joe Rogan?

  There's a positive to it. So violinists, can I ask you this, totally unrelated?

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:06Joe Rogan?

  What is the difference between violin and a fiddle?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Well, violin is a career track towards concert violinist. So it's classical music.

• 4:15Joe Rogan?

  So it's how you play it?

• 4:16Speaker 02

  It's partially how you play it, but it's mostly about the nature of the music that you're playing.

• 4:22Joe Rogan?

  So is it just how it's referred in different cultures? Like, in southern music, it would be a fiddle?

• 4:27Speaker 02

  It's also style. It's style and it's also the intonation. Like, if you're, if you're, did like I did, I transitioned from classical violin, when I knew I wasn't going to do that as a career, into bluegrass, fiddle, and banjo.

• 4:42Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  So actually, ended up playing 25 years, the last five years being bluegrass. And so there, I actually had to learn not to play that well. Like, you have, it sounds better for bluegrass if you're a little bit off tune and you're not, you're not holding it right and it's...

• 5:01Joe Rogan?

  Authentic.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:03Joe Rogan?

  Scratchy.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:05Joe Rogan?

  Something to it.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  So, in fact, in graduate school, I, I was in the competition for the Illinois State Fiddler Contest. And so I was probably 25 or something at the time. And Alison Krauss was like a, like a teenager, and she was in the same competition, and I lost miserably. And she was incredible, even at that time.

• 5:26Joe Rogan?

  Who is she?

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Alison Krauss.

• 5:28Joe Rogan?

  I don't know who she is. Sorry.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  She, she is a...

• 5:32Joe Rogan?

  Do you know who she is, Jamie?

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, she's a very, very well-known, somewhere between country singer, but she plays the violin and the fiddle, and has a fantastic voice.

• 5:42Joe Rogan?

  I'm out of the loop. I'm sorry.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you heard, if you heard one of her songs, I'm sure you would know it.

• 5:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, if you made me name a fiddler, I would say, well, "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" was the first time, like, America really understood, like, popular culture, like, the fiddle got introduced.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:03Joe Rogan?

  Is that fair to say?

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:05Joe Rogan?

  Like, that, for a lot of people, that song, that Charlie Daniels Jr. song.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:09Joe Rogan?

  That's, that's the fiddle.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's like-

• 6:11Joe Rogan?

  Is that good?

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, it's pretty good. It's a little bit like fiddle on steroids, but yeah.

• 6:17Joe Rogan?

  But I mean, like, as a fiddler, do you hear that, or is it, like, only for the unwashed masses that think that's good?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, it's good, good fiddling, yeah. Yeah, it's fiddling around.

• 6:27Joe Rogan?

  It's a beautiful instrument. Sorry for the sidetrack. So-

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Okay, so I did that for twenty years or so, and then in the middle of college, I decided, I think I want to get a job where I could use my mind instead of my body. So I switched into electrical engineering. Why? Because I like to take stuff apart, and I used to make things in high school.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  So then, I didn't know what I wanted to do after I got my degree, so I went on to get a master's in electrical engineering. And then, I didn't want to be an electrical engineer anymore, so I got a PhD in experimental psychology. And so, it sounds like flipping back and forth between lots of different things, and it kind of is. But you'll see that my career is a little bit like a game show in that you're presented with, this is what you could do, like, forever, or you can choose door number two. And I almost always chose door number two, because, like, I would do this for a while and say, I sort of understand that now, I want to do something different. Door number two. So, and as a senior in college,

• 7:33Speaker 02

  I learned about this place called the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which was started by Apollo fourteen astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who was the sixth man on the moon. And on the way back to the earth, he had a mystical experience. And so today, a lot of people who go into space talk about the overview effect. And he was one of the first to talk about it openly, even though all of the other astronauts had it. It expresses itself in different ways. So people generally will turn from whatever they were, it's a transformative experience, and they become different. And so, in his way of expressing that, after the mystical experience and thinking, what in the world is that? Because he felt one with the universe, literally.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  He decided to create this institute that would study what he had been studying for outer space, but for an inner space, to explore inner space. So I remember in college, reading about this new institute, and their motto was- Exploring the frontiers of consciousness. And I thought, that sounds like something I want to do. But there wasn't any place to do that, other than this one institute. So I always had in the back of my mind, that's where I want to end up.

• 8:49Joe Rogan?

  What is that term, noetic? I know I've heard it before, but I never looked it up.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Noetic. So noetic is a feeling of intuition, except that it carries a sense of certainty that the intuition is correct. So intuition is knowing something without knowing how you know it, just sort of arrives. But it's knowing with certainty. And more often than not, the certainty is correct. So when people talk about downloads, in meditation and other places, that's what that is.

• 9:20Joe Rogan?

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• 12:04Joe Rogan?

  This is a subject that, up until, I would say, the last couple decades, was pretty openly dismissed by rational people, right? There's almost like a desire to dismiss it, like a desire to define the world in much clearer terms, where it's maybe ego-driven, you're in control of your own destiny, and then there's certain factors that are out of your control, and just, this is how it is, and this is life, deal with it. And all this mystical woo-woo magic bullshit that people have been talking about for some strange reason for thousands of years, we just dismiss. And we dismiss it under the narrative of

• 12:45Joe Rogan?

  science. We're talking about science. We're science people. We want data. But there is data. That's what's weird. And if you're willing to look a little preposterous, which I certainly am, I think it's a good thing to do every now and then.

• 13:00Joe Rogan?

  Take a fucking chance and try to figure out if the world is exactly constructed the way you've been told, because it might not be. There might be some weirdness to it all. And it seems like we all agree. We all agree there is some weirdness. You could chalk it off to coincidence when you think about a person and you haven't thought about them forever and all of a sudden they call you. There's some weirdness in the world. There's some weirdness in the world, like knowing not to do something and then something happens. There's some weirdness in knowing something's gonna happen and you ignore that feeling and then something terrible happens, you're like, "Fuck, I knew I shouldn't have gone there." There's weirdness in the world.

• 13:41Joe Rogan?

  And it's not necessarily just pattern recognition and understanding scenarios because you've experienced them before. There's something to that, too. That's part of it, too. But there's also something else. There's some weird connection that people have. There's a thing that when you know someone's mad at you and they don't say anything, you're like, "What is this fucking weird energy I'm getting off this guy?" There's some stuff we're experiencing in the world that you can't put on a scale. You can't put a tape measure to it. You can't measure its density, but it's there. There's something. And we have a very limited amount of senses in terms of our ability to see, feel, touch, smell. It's not enough. There's probably some other stuff out there, we don't have the tools to measure, but it impacts us.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  But we do have the tools to measure. So that's what attracted me to the rest of my career. Because exactly for the same reason you just said, that people have experiences, oftentimes they feel pretty strange, and so they start looking for, "Well, what is that?" So if you go to a, like, a conventional science spokesperson, they will echo back exactly what you're saying. It's coincidence, it's frailty of memory, all of that stuff. But I learned early on, even in college, that there is a branch of science that has studied these things. I mean, it's been going on since the late 1800s, that there's scientists have been interested in these kinds of phenomena.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  And science is really, really good at taking even strange, subjective experiences and figuring out, is that a coincidence, or is that, what is that? Is it real? That attracted me. So, and it partially came out of reading a lot of science fiction. Science fiction is saturated with these kinds of stories, where the element of the story is revolving around some kind of psychic or neurotic thing.

• 15:31Joe Rogan?

  The force.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:33Joe Rogan?

  Classically.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  The force in Dune, the series, Frank Herbert's Dune series, the whole thing about spice. Why did they have to take spice? Because that's the only way you can navigate when you're jumping through wormholes. Like, you needed to know what you're about to expect on the other side. It just saturates novels and science fiction, it's there. And generally, if you have a topic that people are paying attention to like that, and are very popular, it's because something is resonating. Like, if it was so strange that nobody even had a way of thinking about it, it wouldn't be popular. But it is, and it's perennially popular. So, so I took the science fiction interest, and as even a younger kid, about fairy tales,

• 16:18Speaker 02

  which is saturated with these things too. And I thought, well, that, I wonder if that's real. But then you kind of get shuttled into a scientific career, and one thing that happens for fledgling engineers and scientists, and for a lot of other academics, is that you're being taught a set of assumptions about the way that the world works, called materialism or physicalism. And the thing is, you're not taught that that is a set of assumptions. You take it for granted after a while, because after you go through college for 20-plus years, and no one ever mentions that we're working under a set of assumptions, a materialism, and no one ever talks about the philosophy of science, which is all about studying the assumptions and are they correct.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  Once you do start studying the philosophy of science, you find out that there's lots of different ways of understanding reality. And so there's the whole materialistic side, which is really, really good at explaining aspects of the physical world. It gives us these kinds of technologies. But it doesn't explain subjective experience at all. And so that's like the existing number one mystery in science today because you have to challenge the idea that materialism is all there is. And so people have weird experiences. They're talking about a more comprehensive way of understanding reality. That's what's going on. And so that's why I end up writing a book like this. So the magic here is not stage magic.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  It's the real magic, which we don't have a name for yet.

• 17:50Joe Rogan?

  When they first started studying this in the 1800s, what were they specifically trying to isolate or figure out?

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Well, just like today, people would see apparitions. They would have the sense that there were telepathic connections between people. They'd have precognitions. And it was the beginning of figuring out ways of using experimental science to be able to study these things, under controlled conditions. And the word "control" is important because it means you exclude coincidence by the design and you exclude leakage of information. You exclude all kinds of things. So the only thing left over is if that telepathic thing was real, then we'd be able to see it in the lab. And the short story is, yeah, so we're now 150 years past that and we have very, very strong evidence that telepathy does exist.

• 18:41Joe Rogan?

  So what was the first evidence that they were able to get out of these initial experiments?

• 18:48Speaker 02

  They used to call it thought transference. And so the methods they were using then would not pass muster today. They would have like two kids who said, "We can do telepathic transfer between us." And then many times they would find that the kids were using some kind of signal. And so that that wouldn't work today. Today, people have to be strictly isolated. Neither can know what the target is that they're trying to transfer to the other person. And we do lots and lots of replications with lots of people. And so that that then forms a body of evidence where it becomes extremely difficult to think of what the flaw might be. And in fact, if you ask skeptics about it, who know the literature, their usual response

• 19:31Speaker 02

  now is either there's no plausible flaw that they can identify, because a lot of time has been spent to figure out what might be a flaw. And the second response, which is more recent now, is we're not even going to look at the evidence because we know it's impossible, which is no longer a scientific argument. But that's that's the approach. We're not going to look at the data.

• 19:52Joe Rogan?

  That's silly.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's really silly when you consider the intelligence agencies have spent an enormous amount of money and a considerable amount of time studying remote viewing. Like, why? Why would they invest that much time in nonsense? Why would they invest that much time in something where there's no evidence whatsoever and they've never achieved positive results? That doesn't seem to be correct.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  No.

• 20:15Joe Rogan?

  If you just if you listen to the stories of the guys, like Hal Putoff and all these different people that have been involved in these remote viewing experiments, they had actionable data that they they they derived specifically from remote viewing. I don't understand it. I can't I've never done it. I've never attempted it. I don't know if I can do it. I did it once. We we had an experiment on a television show that I did where we had this guy who claimed to be a remote viewer, remote view this area, and it was he was off. But it was also under duress with cameras. Like, is that the state of mind that you want to be in when you're trying to remote view? No, that's not ideal at all. And that is a factor, a major factor.

• 20:57Joe Rogan?

  Whether or not you can understand intuition is where, what is your state of mind? Are you in a place of complete anxiety and fear? Or are you totally relaxed and focused on what you're doing? Is there any distractions? Is there a jackhammer nearby? Is there a dog barking? Is there something that could interrupt this state of mind that you're trying to achieve? Because there's different states of mind. We know this. We can measure this. We can measure the brainwaves. We can, we can, we understand that the state of mind, it's not a static thing like a toaster. You know, it's not on or off. There's a bunch of different shit going on in your brain, in your mind, at any given time. So, the idea that remote viewing, which is some very bizarre connection that some people

• 21:42Joe Rogan?

  have to reality that's nowhere near local. They can describe things in detail, talk about submarines that are being constructed in the Soviet Union. Like, it's, there's weird shit to that. And if you just, if you just dismiss that, you're being a fool. There's something there. And the only way anybody figures out there's something there is if you study it. If actually intelligent people are willing to look a little foolish and spend some time studying it. This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too.

• 22:24Joe Rogan?

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• 23:04Speaker 02

  Right. So that brings us to my next job. So after I got my, my doctorate, I started working at Bell Laboratories.

• 23:12Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  So it was the biggest laboratory in the world at the time, it's still the Bell system. And because I was interested in these kinds of things, for some of my time at Bell Labs, I started doing little psychic experiments involving mind-matter interaction and also involving precognition. So there's an ongoing link here that goes back to the Institute of Endowetic Sciences in a strange way. Edgar Mitchell gave the first money to SRI International, which is where Hal Putoff and Russ Targ was, to do remote viewing studies. He also brought Yuri Geller to the United States, and he brought SRI and a bunch of other places, including Bell Labs.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  So when I was working at the Labs, I knew that there had been people who had seen some of the stuff that Geller did, and I was doing these little psychic things. So I asked for permission to be able to present some of the work I was doing at an annual conference of the Parapsychological Association, which is an affiliate of the largest scientific organization in the United States, the American Association for the Advancement of Science. So many people don't know that the Parapsychological Association is one of the 200-some affiliates of the AAAS. It's a legitimate scientific organization. So I did this precognition test, I asked for permission, and I got permission, not only to give my presentation at the conference, but to use the Bell Labs imprimatur.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  So I was giving this as some guy from Bell Labs talking to this audience. Unbeknownst to me, there were a few people in the audience who came up afterwards, and one of them said, "If there was an opening, would you be interested in joining the Stargate program?"

• 24:57Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  And so that was an offer I couldn't refuse. That's one of these cases of, you have this door, or you have that door. Well, that door looked really interesting, because it was known at the time that there were people at SRI doing this sort of thing, but the classified portions were a rumor, like, nobody knew what was really going on.

• 25:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  So I took a leave of absence.

• 25:18Joe Rogan?

  That must have been exciting.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:20Joe Rogan?

  You get that offer?

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:22Joe Rogan?

  Stargate?

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, are you kidding?

• 25:24Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  So I took a leave of absence for one year from Bell Labs. And so I went to SRI International. Hal Putoff was my boss, and then Ed May, when Hal left in 1985, Ed May took over. He may not be a name that is known as well, but he was the director for 10 years. And so I worked on that project and it took a long time to get the clearances. Because, first of all, I didn't know anything about classification or anything, but I figured, well, maybe it's just secret. No, it's just top secret. No, it's top secret SEI. No, it's top secret SEI Special Access Program. Which means, there's literally a book that you have to sign, and you can see all the

• 26:10Speaker 02

  other people who have signed that book. Special access means, even if you have a top secret clearance, you cannot know about this place. You cannot know about the code word. You can't, the code word was classified. So, I mean, it seems kind of odd, because if you have a code word, it's not saying anything. But nevertheless, that's how it worked. Wow. So, we were the research side of people who talk about Stargate. Mostly, they're talking about the military side, the operational side. Well, we knew what they were doing, but our mission was different. Our mission was, figure out those questions that you're asking. How does this stuff work? Like, is it real? Yes. Some people are very talented. What are the limits of it?

• 26:55Speaker 02

  Can you block it? Can you shield it? Can you do camouflage? And one of the main areas was, what's the difference between someone like Joe McMonigal, who's a superstar in this area? Why is he any different than anybody else? Because, like, when I first met Ingo Swan and Joe and a bunch of other people, they were the kind, they were so different than my stereotype of madam Zodiac, that they, like, I'd say, you gotta be kidding. These people are remote viewers? They're just, like, guys and gals. And so every method was used to try to figure out, is it psychological difference? Is it physiological? Is it medical? What is it? And the answer was, we couldn't find anything.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  There may be some background about the people themselves, but in terms of finding out something that we could use to select, because the Army and others were interested in getting lots of other people who would be talented, too.

• 27:51Joe Rogan?

  So there was no consistent factors?

• 27:53Speaker 02

  No, there wasn't, it wasn't anything.

• 27:55Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  So.

• 27:57Joe Rogan?

  That seems crazy.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Except maybe talent. Two things, talent and openness. So talent is natural talent. It's partially based on genetics. And openness is a psychological trait where you're simply open to experience. So people who tend to be, to have like a certain way of thinking about things and are not open to other stuff, they block it. They could block it real good. People who are open to experience and willing to try new things, they in general tend to do better. So that brings us to talent, which I'll get to a little bit later, especially about the genetics of talent. So we didn't have the genetic tools at the time. Now we do have the genetic tools.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  And so we've done a couple of studies looking for what we call the psych gene. So we've, we think we're on to something. Okay, so, so I work on Stargate for a year. I go back to Bell Labs and almost immediately get another invitation. It's one of these doors open again. How would you like to go to Princeton? Because at Princeton at the time was the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory. It was the, a lab doing psych research that was headed by the dean of the School of Engineering. And so that lab went almost for 30 years, doing mind-matter interaction, doing remote viewing and a bunch of other stuff at Princeton.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  So my position was in the psych department, because that's where I had my PhD, but to lead a program among many departments, one of which was the pair lab. And the idea was, in order to have any chance of beginning to understand this stuff, you need to pull in every discipline, because it's way too big. It's, it's too complicated for a single discipline. So we had the philosophy department and the psychology department and civil engineering and the pair lab and a bunch of other departments. My job was sort of corral it together to create multidisciplinary research projects. And I was told on day one, that's impossible. This is a job you cannot do. Well, why?

• 30:05Speaker 02

  I mean, we had the money for it. And the answer is that in the academic world, you succeed within silos. You know a enormous amount about a very particular kind of topic. Like even in the psych department there, you have cognitive psychologists, perceptual psychologists, social psychologists, and on and on and on. They don't even talk to each other because it's outside of your discipline, outside the little silo. My job was to sort of mash it together and it was ridiculously complicated.

• 30:35Joe Rogan?

  Was there resistance?

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Oh, my god. Resistance is not quite strong enough. It's like each one of the departments was getting money from this big grant that we had, so they were willing to play the game. But when it actually came down to doing some kind of a cross-filtering, no.

• 30:54Joe Rogan?

  Why didn't they want to collaborate?

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Because everything of value in the academic world is in your silo. And so if you're trying to work across silos, again, even within the same department, social psychology and perceptual psychology might not even talk to each other. And their offices are right next to each other. But that's simply the way that's...

• 31:15Joe Rogan?

  That's insane.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it also, it sort of makes sense when you think about it. To become an expert in something takes 20 years from the university and then the rest of your academic career, just to keep up with it. So it kind of makes sense that you don't want to start turning your attention off to something else because you're not in that department anymore. So it's a problem and it's always been there. It's not getting any better either.

• 31:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, it seems like there should be a way to fix that. The ultimate goal should be whatever we're all working on collectively should benefit mankind. And if you're in the psychology industry, which you are, if you're teaching psychology, if you're working on psychology, you should want to get involved in this. The fact that they're all siloed off like that seems insane.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the approach that's sometimes taken in the academic world is to create a center, a center for the study of fill in the blank. That brings in people from different disciplines and then they're kind of forced together.

• 32:11Joe Rogan?

  But these people from different disciplines probably are already working on important stuff to them and this is taking away from their time.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  It could be, except that depending on the nature of the work, it may be something that requires another discipline. So you might have somebody in computer science who's working on that and then you have somebody in psychology who's interested in the human side, like how do you connect the computer and the people? Well, there's a sub-discipline called human factors. That's where I was working in Bell Labs because I had engineering and psychology. So you kind of mash those two together and then you could actually learn some new stuff that's of value to both. And also, that's how you create new disciplines. That's how the discipline of neuroscience began. So you go back, now it's more like sixty to seventy years ago, somebody noticed that you have all these people in biology and all these people looking at cells and all

• 33:01Speaker 02

  the people looking at things having to do with the nervous system, they were all different disciplines. So a large foundation came along and said, I think we need to create a discipline of the neurosciences. And they threw enough money at it to bring people together and that formed a new discipline. So I work in the area of consciousness studies, which is only now starting to become its own discipline. Because before that, it was maybe a few philosophers interested in it and anesthesiologists, and that's it. But it's changing.

• 33:36Joe Rogan?

  So when you were at Princeton, what specifically did, how did you start it? Like, what specifically were you working on initially?

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Well, besides trying to get people to talk to each other, which was frustrating.

• 33:48Joe Rogan?

  A big task.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. So one of the things I did was meta-analysis. So this is a way of taking the results of individual experiments that are similar to each other, like telepathy experiments, and putting them all together with a statistical method to see whether independent people are able to replicate the same thing. It's called meta-analysis. Meta meaning it's like an analysis of analyses. And so it answers two questions. One is, if this is really real, in a scientific sense, then other independent people ought to be able to do the same experiment and get the same result. So that's one part. The other part is, if you do have a lot of people doing the same experiment, then what is the overall result? It's like one gigantic experiment now.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  So I did a number of meta-analyses, ended up writing a book on it that nobody wanted to buy, so it just sat there. And then I was doing experiments on precognition as part of my job. And because of my engineering background, I was using the latest version of machine learning at the time, which was neural networks, and applying it to the data from the pair lab to see if, you know, when you do an experiment involving mind-matter interaction, you usually use a random number generator, and you ask them, buddy, this thing is, you tell them, this is going to push out a whole bunch of bits, random bits, and I want you to make more one bits than zero bits. That's your task. So they press a button, and they get some kind of result.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  And now make more zero bits. And now don't do anything. So this is a, three different kinds of tasks in one session. And so what they were finding was that, in general, if you run a lot of people in this kind of task, yes, their intention makes the bits go in the direction that you want. So you aim high, it goes up; aim low, it goes down, so on. So the question then is, not everybody can do that. Some people get the opposite result. Some people get really good at making it go high, but they can't make it go low. So the idea came about that there's something like a signature. That was from each person.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  People had a way of interacting with the machine that made it do certain things that was unique to them, but overall, it worked out. So I started using neural networks to see if I could train a neural network to tell who was doing the task based on how the random bits were working. And it turns out, you can. So when I left Princeton, because it was getting way too frustrating, I took that idea-

• 36:23Joe Rogan?

  Just trying to get people to work together. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th, because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks, and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with

• 37:08Joe Rogan?

  insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better, H E L P, dot com. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Believe it or not, the holiday season is here again, and that means you might need to fill some seasonal roles, fast. Maybe you need extra cashiers or stalkers, or maybe something more unique, like a lead elf, or an expert gift wrapper, or a Zamboni driver. Whoever you're looking for, whatever skills you need to power through the rest of the year, ZipRecruiter is one of the best places to start your search, because you can try

• 37:52Joe Rogan?

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• 38:27Speaker 02

  Trying to do this multidisciplinary teams. Yeah, and as I told you, the first day I was there for the job, I was told, by the way, you have an impossible job. It's necessary, though, because this was part of the grant. What you're doing is part of the grant. So you have to do it anyway. And I did it for three years, and then I decided I don't want to do that anymore. But so I went back to industry, but I specifically told the people I was interviewing with, I want to pursue this. Like, this is the beginning of a technology where that will have a machine identify who you are and your intention, kind of like Neuralink, except there's no connection. There's nothing going in the brain. It's purely intention.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  So I did end up working for a company outside of Washington, D.C., where part of my work was doing exactly that. We're using more advanced neural networks with random number generators. And got to the point where we're about to set a patent for this device because it worked. And the head of the organization at the time was a retired general who had a buddy who was an admiral, and he said, "The Navy's interested in this." Kind of for obvious reasons. They want ways of communicating with submarines. So at that point, we're like right on the edge of doing that, and we get bought by another company. And the new company said, "You're not going to work on that anymore."

• 39:55Speaker 02

  So the wheels internally started, it was like golden handcuffs. A lot of money, I mean, it's a very good position, but I didn't really want to do that anymore.

• 40:05Joe Rogan?

  Did they have a, was it a profitable issue?

• 40:09Speaker 02

  The vice president in charge of the lab did not believe that it was possible.

• 40:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  He also didn't look at the data.

• 40:15Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  So he said, no, we're not going to do that.

• 40:18Joe Rogan?

  He doesn't want to be silly.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, I mean, it's so frustrating. You have the, it worked. We have a thing here. It's working. No, he just, he didn't want to do it.

• 40:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's so frustrating.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, a few years goes by. I kept doing all this stuff on the side now, outside of work, because it was just too interesting to drop.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  My, there was a recession. This was 1992. There was a recession.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Part of my department was laid off, including myself. So unbeknownst to most people at the time, that the Stargate program, and by the way, it wasn't called Stargate then. There's a lot of code words involved, but it's just known as Stargate, so we'll use that. That program was giving classified contracts to other people around the world, including at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland. So we had a colleague at the University of Edinburgh who was creating an automated Gonsfeldt testing system. This is a telepathy system where you press a button and the people are involved and everything is automated. It's kind of getting the human out of the loop, except for the two people in the experiment.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Well, the man who was developing that unfortunately died. And so this was an unfinished project, so I went to Ed May, who was director of Cart Stargate at the time, and I said, well, can I go there and finish the project? Yeah, sure. Okay. So I went to the University of Edinburgh for about a year, and I worked on this project to finish the automated telepathy system. And they've run many, many people through that system by now.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  And so while I was there, I finished that pretty quickly. I started to develop the presentiment experiment. And you had Julia Mossbridge on the show recently. So she was, I think she was talking about this experiment where you can see if somebody's body is reacting to something in the future that is unanticipated, that's random. Well, I was developing that at the time. This would have been around 93 or so. And like... And so, let me, let me tell you a story about the kind of effect that gave me the idea to do this experiment. So, the usual way that people talk about it is that you're, you drive to work the same way every, every day, thousands of times, and you have a, a traffic light that you're

• 42:41Speaker 02

  coming up to, and it's green, and normally you'd start accelerating towards it, because you want to get through the light. Something tells you today, there's something wrong. I don't know what it is, but I'm going to slow down. And you keep slowing down, the cars behind you are beeping, they're saying, what, what's going on? You get almost up to the intersection, and a truck blasts through their red light, and you would have been hit broadside if you didn't slow down. So you have this momentary shock of relief, realizing that you just saved your life by paying attention to that little voice inside your head. So I thought, okay, let's simulate that in the laboratory. Well, we can't put people in danger, but we can do emotional tests like that.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  So, you wire somebody up, looking at skin conductance, or pupil dilation, or brainwaves, all kinds of things, in your nervous system. And then you just record that continually, tell them to press a button, and then they're going to see something on a screen. So it could be a very calm picture, or it could be a very emotional picture. So emotion can split in two ways. It could be a very negative picture, like picture of surgery, or an explosion or something, or it could be a positive, like a smiling baby. So they're two different valences, they're called. And you don't know which is going to come up, because a true random number generator is a thing that decides, after you press the button, then it decides what it's going to show you.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  So nobody knows in advance, including the experimenter. So I set up an experiment to do that. And by this time, I already, I'd left Edinburgh, I had to make a decision then, again, do you want to go back into industry? And I had an offer from Oak Ridge National Labs, which would have put me back in the classified world, or this other opportunity, which was to work at, at University of Nevada, funded by Robert Bigelow, who's probably best known for the OSAP program. He's been on here before? Yeah. So Bigelow has very generously said, yeah, I'll pay for your way to go into the university there, and I was able to run my own lab. So one of the very first things I set up then was, first of all, I want to continue

• 44:49Speaker 02

  working on this neural network or machine learning method for making a technology of intention. That was one of the things. But the other one was this presentiment experiment. So I ran that experiment, and it was unbelievably good. Like, it's normally you have little statistical effects. This is like in-your-face, holy smoke, this is a big thing. Big, big presentiment effects. Like if a skin conductance, one and a half seconds before you, well, you press a button, you wait five seconds. Then it selects a picture. So one and a half seconds before the picture is selected, if it's emotional, you start to become emotional. If it's calm, you remain calm.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  So that difference beforehand, we call the presentiment effect. It's your body somehow, or unconscious, knowing what you're about to see. Just like approaching a light and slowing down. Something is telling you something. So we did that experiment, and I told this to one of the guys at the center I was working at, and he told me a story which is far more interesting than not going through a red light. So the story is this. So he used to go hunting with his buddies, and they had a whole bunch of guns. His favorite gun was a six-shot revolver, a double-action revolver. And so the way that he, he would take all the bullets out, he'd clean the whole thing

• 46:15Speaker 02

  out, and he put in one, two, three, four, five bullets, and leave the hammer over the empty chamber, so it wouldn't get jostled accidentally. So he's cleaning the gun, he's putting in bullet one, two, three, four, he picks up the fifth bullet, and he has that feeling. Something about this bullet isn't right. So he didn't put it in, left it aside, put the hammer over cylinder six, and then they went hunting. So it is now two weeks in advance. They come back from hunting, his pistol wasn't used, and a bunch of other guns weren't used. But they do what you should not do after you go hunting, which is starting to drink. So they're all getting a little bit too tipsy and drinking too much, and a fight breaks out between two people there.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  One of them picks up my friend's gun, points it point-blank at somebody else, like right in their face, and my friend is now looking with horror because the trigger's getting pulled. The hammer's going back, the cylinder is turning, and he's trying to intervene now. He steps right in front of the gun, and it goes click. The hammer hit. It hit that fifth chamber because it rotated from six to five.

• 47:25Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  So he realized with horror at that moment that if he had not taken out that bullet, he would be shot in the head. And so afterwards, he said, "Everyone has a bullet with their name on it, and mine is in a safety deposit box, and I know exactly where it is, and it's not coming out."

• 47:42Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  So that's a real-life version of this, which is two weeks in advance. In the laboratory, we can only look seconds in advance.

• 47:51Joe Rogan?

  Also, you should have the intuition and not go hunting and drinking with psychos that are willing to shoot somebody in the face over an argument.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Nevertheless, yeah. So it happens. Yeah, so...

• 48:03Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy, though.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  See, this is where we want to go in these kinds of experiments. You need, like, real-life stuff that you can actually test in a controlled way in the laboratory. But there's all kinds of ethical reasons, obviously, why you can't do that. But I'm pretty sure that if we're able to get something at that level in the laboratory, we would have much, much stronger results than we currently do.

• 48:26Joe Rogan?

  Now, when it comes to things like remote viewing and being able to be open and being able to actually pull it off and actually remote-view things that you can prove, what is the state of mind these people are trying to achieve? And what is the protocol for achieving that state of mind?

• 48:50Speaker 02

  It depends on whether you're naturally talented or not. So Joe McMonical and a few others that I know...

• 49:00Speaker 02

  If you were to ask them at breakfast, "Could you remote view what I have in, I have a hidden folder over here?" They would continue eating and tell you the answer immediately. So for them, it doesn't take much at all. And in fact, what Joe would say, and I have some pictures from what Joe had done, Joe would say that if he knows in the afternoon he's going to do a remote viewing, he'll get all the information in the morning, like instantly, it'll just be there. And then he has to wait until the, you know, the whole thing plays out, but it's like, bang, he got it. So it's a matter internally of simply knowing, "I need to get this information," and it happens immediately.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  For people who don't have that natural talent, you go through training where, and by the way, almost everybody can do this, but it does require some training now. So for an average person, the training typically is to not name an impression, which is really tough. So you have a target, which may be somewhere in the world, maybe a person somewhere, maybe in an envelope, something like that. You're taught, you will have something come to mind. You know that that's the target. You have no idea what it is, but you know that there is a target you're going to have to describe. So name the first thing that comes to mind, but not, without naming it. So you start little scribbles, and then you have more complicated scribbles,

• 50:25Speaker 02

  and you start adding feelings and senses that are associated with these scribbles. Eventually, you get to the point where it's kind of all gels together, and then you get a coherent image. The problem is that if you tell somebody, "I'm going to show you a picture in 20 minutes," that you don't know what it is, and you say, "Okay, well, just imagine what you're going to get," and you get a flash of yellow, you're instantly going to start thinking of bananas. And once that happens, you can't not think of bananas anymore. So that's what I mean by not naming. So that's one of the very first things that you learn is, anything that comes to mind that you have a name to is probably not it. It takes practice, but you can get there.

• 51:07Joe Rogan?

  Wow. What was the most impressive thing that you ever saw anybody achieve with remote viewing?

• 51:15Speaker 02

  After I got the clearances, Hal gave me the briefing that everyone gets, like in SKIFs, in Congress, in presidents, whatever. I got the same briefing. So, one picture after the other of experiments by Joe and by a bunch of other people who are not as well-known, they basically give almost a veridical drawing of the target. And these are targets that are elsewhere in the world. These are targets that are in envelopes. These are targets that are in SKIFs, all different kinds of targets, where nothing about the target is known. Like, I will tell you a five-digit number, which stands for the target. And so, all you have is a five-digit number. Now, give me a description of what I'm going to show you in two hours.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  And they do it.

• 52:01Joe Rogan?

  So, you're putting the number to the target? You're just saying, like, Moscow is number 654?

• 52:08Speaker 02

  A random number, yes.

• 52:10Joe Rogan?

  And just by you attributing that number to whatever this target is, there's a connection made?

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 52:17Joe Rogan?

  What's happening? How's that?

• 52:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:20Joe Rogan?

  What's that?

• 52:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. We don't know why that is. There are theories about it, and the theory requires probably stepping away from materialism as the only model of reality. So, there are other models which allow for consciousness, whatever that is, because we don't know that either, but consciousness seems to have a non-local quality. So, it's the same kind of non-locality that you talk about in quantum mechanics. So, quantum mechanics has entanglement, which are non-local connections between things. It is also through time. So, connections through space and time. So, we know that that's a real thing. That's what the physical world allows. It is as though consciousness, whatever that is, also has that property. It is non-local.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  So, if you push it hard enough, you end up with something like that movie, Everything, Everywhere, All at the Same Time. That's basically what we're talking about. There is an aspect of reality which we don't ordinarily see, but nevertheless connects everything throughout space and time.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  And so if that were not true, then things like precognition wouldn't work so well, telepathy wouldn't work, remote viewing wouldn't work, none of that would work. But nevertheless, it does work. So that is like a more comprehensive way of understanding what reality is like.

• 53:39Joe Rogan?

  Do you think this is an emerging quality in human beings? Or do you think this is an atrophied quality that we used to all have before the development of written language, books, media, all these different things that sort of take away this quiet communication that people probably had with each other? We believe wolves have that with each other. Wolves coordinate somehow. They coordinate attacks on animals. And it could be through learned experience, but how do they remember it and know what to do? And how do each one have specific roles? Like, one wolf will chase the elk into like a certain corridor, and the other wolves will wait and be on like a higher ground and come down and attack.

• 54:23Joe Rogan?

  They know that they do weird stuff that somehow or another requires some kind of communication.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Yes. And they're way more intelligent than we had usually thought.

• 54:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, think about how intelligent some dogs are.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:37Joe Rogan?

  You know, like a Belgian Malinois or something like that, one of those dogs they use for military training. Those dogs are incredibly intelligent.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:44Joe Rogan?

  And they need exercise. They need activities. They need things to stimulate them because their brain is like firing all day long. Wolf is that times 100.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, most animals, plants, insects maybe have consciousness in some form, and if that consciousness is similar to ours, it is non-local.

• 55:02Joe Rogan?

  Do you think it's an emerging thing?

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:05Joe Rogan?

  Or do you think it's a thing that we've always had?

• 55:06Speaker 02

  I think that we are shaped as humans by evolution to not pay attention to the there and then. Because if we were paying attention to there and then a lot, then you may not notice that there's a tiger in front of you who's about to eat you. And so if you like look over the long span of development of whatever it is we are, people who are walking around thinking about Pluto a million years ago would have been pruned out of existence. So only certain kinds of people historically were able to do that. We call them shamans. And the shamans, as part of a tribe, were extremely important because they knew the food would be 10 miles away that way next week.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  But the shamans typically could not take care of themselves very well. Their minds were off in Pluto, and so the tribe took care of them. And so today, we don't have that very much. We're distracted by everything, and we don't have the same kinds of needs that they would have had 10, 20,000 years ago, except in some indigenous societies. So one time, I gave a talk for the Australian government. There was a whole bunch of ministers there and people in the military, and I was talking about this sort of stuff. And unbeknownst to me, one of the ministers was representative of the indigenous people there.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  I finished this long talk on telepathy, and she came up afterwards and said, "Well, we've known this stuff for thousands of years. They would use it, like in the outback. There was no phones, but somehow they were in communications, part of the culture." So they didn't have the distractions, and they had the need. So you can imagine a more or less isolated culture for a long period of time that didn't have tigers immediately always trying to capture them, they had the need to be able to communicate that way. We don't have the need anymore, so it atrophies.

• 57:04Joe Rogan?

  Okay. So it atrophies. And so with things like remote viewing, do you think this is almost like a relearning of a skill that people had at one point in time?

• 57:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there's still some people who have some of the genetics, because all of this is basically is devolving back into talent. Some people have that talent.

• 57:25Joe Rogan?

  And you think that's a genetic thing?

• 57:27Speaker 02

  I think a good chunk of it is genetic, yes.

• 57:29Joe Rogan?

  So it's from people in their ancient past that had that quality, had that ability, and they've passed on that trait?

• 57:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:37Joe Rogan?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer is great, isn't it? It's the perfect season for adventures, but it can also be pretty exhausting juggling chaotic schedules and trying to make the most of summer. That's why it's important to take a moment for you. Go out for a weekend without planning anything and just have fun. Or relax at home. Or if you're really struggling, try therapy with BetterHelp. With a network of over 30,000 quality therapists, they can connect you with the right one, just like they have for millions already across the globe. Together, you can work out what you need and how you can enjoy summer to the fullest.

• 58:22Joe Rogan?

  You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's better H E L P dot com slash J R E.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  So like in Joe McMonigal's case, he was one of those guys who did search and rescue behind enemy lines. And he always came back. His team always found their guy and they always came back alive. And so, well, where did that come from? Well, he used his intuition in the field to decide, let's not go down that road. Let's go over here. And it was safe. So afterwards, when asked, when there was recruiting for people who had some abilities like this, they would ask people like that. Do you find like, and you're in combat, you never get hit? Okay, let's talk. The other thing, of course, is, did you ever have any experiences beforehand? That suggests that maybe you had these experiences.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  Well, Joe did and his sister did too. So there's suggests, again, some kind of a familial genetic underpinning for why people have these experiences. So I will continue the story because I'm going to intersect with this genetic part in a minute. So I'm at UNLV doing all kinds of interesting stuff. Somehow, the New York Times learns about what I'm doing. And they think it's an interesting character story for a parapsychologist be working in Las Vegas. Because Las Vegas is sometimes called the largest parapsychology lab in the world. You have a whole bunch of people trying to mentally influence more or less random systems,

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  like they are all the time. So, okay.

• 1:00:07Joe Rogan?

  It's an interesting way to look at Vegas.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it kind of is, right? You toss the dice, you want a certain result. Well, we do that in the laboratory, except we don't have a lot of money associated with it.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  I was able to actually get data from one of the casinos, the smaller casinos, because the general manager was interested in what I was doing. So I said, well, can I get all the data, as much as you have, on jackpots for slot machines and also the table games? And a miracle occurred, and she said, yeah. So she gave us the data, was able to analyze it, and, among other things, found that jackpots happened more often and payouts happened were larger and table games did better between one, or plus or minus, one day from the full moon. Which, by the way, matches magical lore. I mean, all kinds of things are related to when the full moon happens, religious effects

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  and all kinds of things. So I thought, well, that's interesting, more jackpots happen, plus or minus a day of the full moon. And so I said to the general manager, maybe this is something you don't want to tell people, because they'll all start coming in the full moon. She said, yeah, bring them in, because all you could do with this information was lose a little bit slower. Because everything is, you know, Vegas- Pretty rigged. Yeah, it's not rigged, but it's set up in such a way- The odds. ... that the odds are against you. So you would lose slower, but nevertheless, you'd see it in the data, so there's something interesting. Okay, so I get to the, to the end of my time at UNLV, and a new door opens.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  And partially because I, because of the New York Times piece, that book that I had written at Princeton that nobody wanted to buy, I suddenly had publishers calling me and saying, do you ever think about writing a book? Yeah, I have one. So I published that book. That caught the attention of people at an organization called Interval Research, which was funded by Paul Allen, the co-founder of Microsoft.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  So Paul Allen was interested in doing what he called "Developing the Wired World." This was, this would have been started in 1990 as a 10-year project to figure out, given that the Internet was going to be a gigantic thing, what do we do with it? So this was people that were, that were poached from Apple and from Xerox PARC and the MIT Lab and all, lots of places. They brought 100 people together. And so I was invited to do a psi research program there with a budget that was 10 times larger than I had at UNLV and a salary that was three times larger. So I thought, yeah, that's the door that I want.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  So at interval, everything was proprietary because it was all leading into patents that would eventually create things. And so some of the things we take for granted now were developed there. I was there not so much to develop a psychic technology, but because a small percentage of the projects were considered blue sky. It's kind of to make sure that everybody in the lab realized that we're trying to push the envelope hard in developing new things. And so it's always useful to have a couple of speculative projects around. So I worked on that. And then the 10 years was over in 2000. So this was all in Silicon Valley.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  So a couple of us then left to create a nonprofit, which, which we called the Boundary Institute, which would continue the research that we were doing. And then that lasted for about a year because there was the dot-com crash and we couldn't raise money to keep ourselves afloat. I was invited then to join the Institute of Neuistic Sciences, where I've been now for the last 25 years. So the, the circle here is, here I am in college and looking at this, this place, studying the frontiers of consciousness, and that's where I end up and have been there ever since. And no new doors have opened that have attracted me. So I'm, I'm there and I've been having great fun at the institute.

• 1:04:17Joe Rogan?

  I interrupted you when we were talking about numbers being associated with targets. And you were expanding on actionable data, like real, like what, what was the most impressive thing to you that you saw that people achieved with remote viewing?

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  Do you mean from an operational sense or?

• 1:04:35Joe Rogan?

  I mean, just, just for people listening, like what would be?

• 1:04:40Joe Rogan?

  The most spectacular example of something that couldn't be achieved any other way.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  Well, one of the things was actually admitted by President Carter way back when, when they found a bomber, a nuclear bomber, that landed somewhere in Africa, which could not be seen from above because of the canopy of all the, and nobody knew where it actually landed.

• 1:05:04Joe Rogan?

  It crashed, right?

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  It crashed. There was a bomb on board that they did not want anybody else to get. And so they asked one of the remote viewers. In fact, this, one of the, they asked several of them, but one of them specialized in location, which is very difficult for remote viewing. Like, if you look at a map and you say, well, you know, put a dot on the map of where it is, that turns out to not be very easy, even for remote viewers. But this one lady was very, very good at that. She was a dowser. In fact, she was a map dowser. So you get a big piece of blank-

• 1:05:37Joe Rogan?

  You're saying dowser, like those people that walk around with the stick to find water?

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Except map dowsing is, you have a blank sheet of paper, which is linked by association to an actual map somewhere. You don't, you know, you don't want to give anything away, so you don't use a real map, use a piece of paper which is, has little X's on it, that map onto an actual map.

• 1:05:57Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  So we asked this lady, her name was Fran, put a mark on the map of where this bomber landed. And of course, she doesn't know it's Africa, she doesn't know anything. She does her thing, she puts a mark on the map, says, I think it's there. And so they go there, and they find it within a couple of kilometers of that spot.

• 1:06:17Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  And so they, they originally go to that spot, they see natives nearby, so they asked the natives, you know, was there anything crashing out of the sky recently? Said, yeah, something happened over there, that's where it was.

• 1:06:31Joe Rogan?

  Now, what did Carter say, when he, when he spoke about this publicly?

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  Carter was asked a very similar question, that, did you ever encounter anything really weird? So that's the example that he used.

• 1:06:43Joe Rogan?

  Didn't Carter have a UFO experience before?

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  He did. He had that as well, yeah.

• 1:06:48Joe Rogan?

  And Carter was, the folklore is that Carter was briefed about something having to do with alien life, and he was so upset that he started weeping.

• 1:06:58Speaker 02

  Yes, I've heard those stories, yes.

• 1:07:01Joe Rogan?

  What do you think about those stories?

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  It could well be true. I mean, so here, there's actually-

• 1:07:06Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever hear a rumor of what he was told?

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  Uh, no. I don't know what he was told. If I had to guess, given that he was a very religious person, it probably was pushing against his religious beliefs.

• 1:07:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  That's what I would guess.

• 1:07:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, that was the, the giant rumor that was going around recently, that there was going to be some big disclosure by the White House and that a bunch of pastors had been briefed about this to try to talk to their flock and, you know, get ahead of it.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:07:36Joe Rogan?

  You heard that, right?

• 1:07:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:37Joe Rogan?

  What did you think of that?

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  It could well be true. So, I, I know Jacques Vallée really well, and, uh-

• 1:07:44Joe Rogan?

  He's a fascinating guy.

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and I know Gary Nolan, and, and-

• 1:07:48Joe Rogan?

  Another fascinating guy.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I, I've worked in circles where we've basically all known each other for a long time. Uh, and the, the UFO business, UAP, is very similar in some respects to the psychic side. Both in that there's an enormous amount of misinformation that has been pushed by government, by other places, to deflect attention.

• 1:08:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  And so, there, there's lots of examples of that, uh, which, I mean, because of what we know now about the UFO thing, it's relatively easy to see how that could have happened for, uh, for the psy business as well. So, just one example. I, I go to the Naval War College and I've given a number of lectures, and one of them is on telepathy. How do we know that telepathy actually exists? There's a bunch of different ways of knowing that. And so afterwards, two sub-commanders come up. In fact, that's, that's the story, that's the opening story gambit in my book, The Science of Magic. So, the two sub-commanders come up and they say, "Well, we have a story to tell you." These are two independent subs,

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  or the commanders are two subs. So, I'm telling them everything we know about telepathy and they say, "Well, one time, and we're, we're submerged, we're under maneuvers, a crewman wakes up from a dream and goes to the commander and says, 'We need to surface because something bad has happened at home.'" "Well, we can't. We're under maneuvers. Next time we can surface, well, then you can call home." So, the next time they surface, they call home and sure enough, when the sailor woke up from his dream, there was indeed something bad happening at home.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  So both of the commanders had the same story. So I said, well, does this happen like every Tuesday? No, there were no false positives. It happened once, and both times it was correct. That's very important to know, not simply that it happens, but it is happening when the submarines are at a classified depth, which means at least 300 meters, probably more, below the surface of the ocean, where it's extremely difficult to get any kind of message there. So it's not electromagnetic. We don't know what that would be.

• 1:10:00Joe Rogan?

  What were the events at home that were bad?

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  They didn't tell me the events at home.

• 1:10:05Joe Rogan?

  Personal events, like in someone's family?

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  Yes, something in their family, something was going wrong, which turned out to be correct. So one thing is, yes, it tells us something that's important to know from a scientific perspective, because they are not reachable by ordinary means. That's the whole point about having a submarine. Very difficult to know where they are and get messages to them. The other thing is that people who are selected to be submariners are psychologically extremely stable. They're not prone to flights of fantasy, they don't have claustrophobia, they don't have any kind of the neuroses that you would imagine that somebody would need to go into a submarine for months, submerged, who knows where.

• 1:10:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  So it means that this happens to ordinary people, in this case, in an altered state of awareness, namely in a dream state, but nevertheless, they got it, and there were no false positives. So I was a little, whenever I give a talk to a new type of group, especially in the military, always thinking that these guys are, they think I'm nuts, because I'm telling them stuff that shouldn't exist by any conventional perspective. It's exactly the opposite. Mostly I've talked to officers, like up to generals and admirals and a few levels below that. They're all completely on board, and I began to understand why. That not only are they in life and death situations, and that's where these things

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  tend to bubble up, but also they had to trust their intuition in making lots of decisions that affect other people, and they would not have risen through the ranks unless they were really, really good at it. So that's why I was not getting the kind of pushback that I expected to get.

• 1:11:47Joe Rogan?

  Interesting. The Bell Labs connection is very interesting, too. You know, Bell Labs is it's also the source of myth and folklore about the Roswell crash, that they received things from the Roswell craft and back engineered it. Do you know that whole crazy?

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  I know about those stories. I don't know any, I don't have any direct knowledge of any of that stuff.

• 1:12:11Joe Rogan?

  Never heard anything when you were there? There was a company called the American Computer Company way back in the day, and they just would sell, you know, Windows computers. You could, you'd pick out the hard drive and all this jazz online, they'd build it for you. And they had a whole page of their website that was dedicated to Bell Laboratories. And Bell Laboratories being close to a military base, not because the military base was really to protect New York City, it was really to protect Bell Labs, because they were working all this top secret stuff there, and that they had back engineered some stuff from the Roswell crash. This is all like this.

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 1:12:46Joe Rogan?

  It's so fun. Why is that stuff so fun?

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe. I mean, after all, they invented the fiber optics, lasers, and everything in modern, the modern world.

• 1:12:56Joe Rogan?

  Fiber optics specifically was one of the things that they discussed, as being something that they discovered.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  Well, there is, I mean, if you go to the, to the ordinary history, you can figure out why that happened. Not that it didn't involve reverse engineering anything, that there's a long history about why somebody would have gotten to the point to realize that you can do certain things with glass. That would be interesting. Whether the idea came from somewhere else, that's, that I don't know.

• 1:13:23Joe Rogan?

  It's just interesting. It's just, it's fascinating when you find out that there are these very limited access programs that are beyond top secret, that even the president can't find out about them.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And so, one of the disadvantage of a special access program is that you could be working next to somebody and are not allowed to talk about what they're doing. And that, that was happening a lot. So, a lot of the Stargate program is now public. There's like four volumes that go through great gory detail on this, called the Stargate Archives. Not all of it has been released. So, a lot of the military stuff will never be released because it involves people and methods and so on. Some of the research side is not released either. And so, I know about that because I was in there. I also, just by virtue of hanging around other people, you'll learn things that they talk about.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  So, we know about some of those things too. And I know when you're talking to Hal Puthoff and occasionally you would ask him something and he'd say, "Well, I can't talk about that." Well, I can talk about this.

• 1:14:29Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:58Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:40Joe Rogan?

  That's shipstation.com code JRE. Taxes and fees apply. That's a problem. Does that frustrate you that you can't openly discuss some of these things?

• 1:16:54Speaker 02

  Yes. It was especially frustrating when I was working there because we go into the building and we're doing all kinds of interesting psychic things and you go out of the building and it does not only doesn't exist, that if it ever comes up in conversation, you don't say, "I can't talk about it" because that would mean they know. You have to go along with the game and just agree with everybody else that it's all nonsense. So it's nonsense out there and in here, we're working on it. So that kind of...

• 1:17:22Joe Rogan?

  What a weird psychological dilemma.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  Well, even worse. The whole point about classification is to keep secrets. We were figuring out ways that you can't keep secrets. Right? I mean, the whole thing about remote viewing and telepathy and all that stuff, there are no secrets. With the right talented people, nothing can be shielded, nothing. Outside, everything is all about secrets. So one of the reasons, I think, that these topics are still have a stigma attached to them and why there's disinformation is because imagine how this society would work if there were no secrets.

• 1:17:59Joe Rogan?

  Don't you think that technology is eventually... Taking us in that direction.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Yes, but it's not going to be Neuralink. It's not going to be brain-computer stuff. It's going to be the real thing.

• 1:18:13Joe Rogan?

  So you think technology will aid us in achieving the real thing?

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:18Joe Rogan?

  How so?

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  Okay, so one day, we're talking to Gary Nolan.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  Gary says, have you ever looked at the genetics of highly talented people? There's a lot of folklore out there, that there are people who are psychic who come from psychic families. And then there are people who don't have anything psychic and don't have anybody talking about psychic stuff.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  That suggests genetics. So this was a couple of years ago. We decided to do an experiment that we call Sci-Genes. We're looking for the psychic gene. More likely a polygenetic trait, but nevertheless, something about genetics. So we do an experiment where we recruit 3,000 people using the Internet who say that they're psychic from psychic families. And then we do all kinds of vetting to make sure that they are who they say they are, and they have some talent. And we get their DNA. We only had enough money to find, out of the 3,000 people, 13, because we also did face-to-face interviews to make sure they weren't nuts. So we get their DNA. Then we find match controls.

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  And we do standard methods of comparing the two, the two sets of genomes. And so we found something that we didn't expect, which was that the psychics were all so-called wild-type. They didn't have any unusual things happening in their DNA. The controls had a significant effect in an intron sequence. So when you have DNA, it's billions of base pairs. Only about 50,000 of them produce proteins. It's called the exome. It's a portion that creates our body. It's that stuff. All of the rest of it used to be called junk DNA, because they didn't know what it did. It's the intron sequence. It's the thing between the genes.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  That now we know is the epigenetic portion. It's the portion of the DNA that turns genes on and off. These controls had a mutation in their intron sequence. So they were turning something off. We still don't know exactly what it is, but something about their makeup was turning off psychic sensitivity. And so one of the people on our project was a specialist in the genetics of societies. Different societies have different genetic makeup. And he found that, to our surprise there too, that countries that were exposed to Christianity, the longer they were exposed, the more this intron sequence was there, the mutation.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  We started thinking, well, how does that make any sense? And then suddenly we understood. The Inquisition had systematically looked for people over hundreds of years who had these abilities, and then they killed them. And so you think about, this is a non-evolutionary method, but nevertheless a pruning of a portion of humanity.

• 1:21:17Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:21:18Speaker 02

  They were getting rid of people who had this, and what were left over were people who had this, no psychic stuff at all. So, yeah, so it's like eugenics in an opposite direction, where they weren't trying to pull people for talent, but get rid of the talent. And you can see it in the genome.

• 1:21:37Joe Rogan?

  And this is directly connected to the Inquisition? Because, so the Inquisition, this is, what were they, like, who were they targeting specifically?

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  They were targeting witches. So the witches were once, I mean, an awful lot of innocent people were caught up in that as well. But people who were known as healers, who were people who had precognition. And of course, the church at the time was just concerned that somebody's going to come along that's going to attract our followers away from us. So magic was okay within the church. Within the bounds of the church, if a priest is anointed in a certain way, they can do magic. The whole ceremony of the Eucharist is a magical practice. It's okay. Outside of the church, it was not okay. And so it was a very heavy-handed way of ensuring that the power would remain in the church.

• 1:22:31Joe Rogan?

  So by enforcing their Christian ideology, they eliminated anybody that had any alternative powers or visions or anything weird, any other kind of practices?

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so the case of the Catholic saints is very interesting. Like Joseph of Cupertino was said to have levitated and also to do bilocation, very psychic things. He was very, he was lucky, in a sense, that he was already a priest. Lots of people, thousands of people, saw him levitate. And he made, basically a deal was made with the Inquisition that you now need to go to this place out in the middle of nowhere and don't show this anymore to anybody. Because we don't-

• 1:23:17Joe Rogan?

  So when you say he could levitate, like how high?

• 1:23:20Speaker 02

  There are stories of him levitating 30 feet.

• 1:23:23Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes drifting into the rafters of churches in front of astonished crowds and even Pope Urban VIII.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:30Joe Rogan?

  You could read more about it in his extraordinary life through Franciscan media.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, Saint Teresa of-

• 1:23:37Joe Rogan?

  The patron saint, go back, please. Often called the patron saint of air travelers.

• 1:23:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, why not? Right, we're all levitating.

• 1:23:45Joe Rogan?

  That is cra- the most famous levitator in Catholic history. So there's other levitators?

• 1:23:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's a book called-

• 1:23:52Joe Rogan?

  How come nobody could do that now?

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  There are stories that people can do it now, but so far in the laboratory, we haven't been able to see this. There's a book called-

• 1:24:02Joe Rogan?

  Stop, stop, please. Go back. This one, Saint Teresa of Avila.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:08Joe Rogan?

  A Spanish mystic who famously recorded that her levitations occurred unexpectedly during states of deep spiritual rapture. She described the sensation as a violent force lifting her up from beneath her feet and was so embarrassed by it that she instructed fellow nuns to physically hold her down.

• 1:24:26Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, dozens, dozens of things.

• 1:24:28Joe Rogan?

  Francis of Assisi, but it's like, do it now. Why do you think people don't do it now and film it on their iPhone?

• 1:24:36Speaker 02

  Well, so the TM organization had a city program, the city yogic powers.

• 1:24:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  And they had this whole thing for a long time about yogic flyers. So one time I went to the university where they were going to show the four best yogic flyers. So we're all excited about that, you know, a few other people. And so there are four young men who go in full lotus position and then hop.

• 1:25:00Joe Rogan?

  I've seen that.

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we were like, you know, right next to them seeing hopping and the hopping's pretty good because you're in a full lotus position and you hop around two and a half feet.

• 1:25:09Joe Rogan?

  It's plyometrics, though.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Speaker 02

  It was hopping. So I asked them, well, why, why aren't anybody flying? Why, why is the flying not happening? There they go.

• 1:25:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:19Joe Rogan?

  You know.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  So that's, it takes, you have to be pretty strong to do that.

• 1:25:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but that's all that is.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:24Joe Rogan?

  I know guys who can do that.

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  So the Maharishi was asked, why, why don't, why isn't anybody flying? And his response was, is there's too many people who think it's impossible. So it's, it becomes like a sociological thing. So is that true? I don't know.

• 1:25:40Joe Rogan?

  Do you think it's, people are more closed minded to the ideas than anything outside the norm? Anything like that, levitation, it's nonsense. So it's like, it's permeated our, our zeitgeist?

• 1:25:51Speaker 02

  Yes. It also, I believe that it can act as a block for other people. So what, one is, so you haven't asked yet, why is a scientist who worked at Princeton and Bell Labs, why am I writing about magic? It's because of a couple of experiences that told me that our understanding of psychic effects now is like in a box. We generally do experiments, we get relatively small effects. They're not gigantic effects, they're not levitation. Well, maybe it's the same thing. Somebody can make a random number generator do something. It's, you need statistics to see it, they're really small, but we don't know the limits.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  So I've had a few experiences that told me, I really don't know what the limits are. And so that, that brings up this. So bending a bowl of a spoon without force, which I did. And so I brought you a spoon. This is the same spoon from the, it's from 1961. It's this particular. So I set up this. I went to a spoke called Spoon Bending Party because-

• 1:26:58Joe Rogan?

  You bent that spoon with your brain? Or your mind?

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  Well-

• 1:27:01Joe Rogan?

  Or your consciousness or whatever it is? Something-

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  I mentally did something, but I'll show you in a minute how we did this. So I, the reason I did this, because I was at an interval. And at the time, Russ Targ was working for me in Edmay, too. And Russ came back from one of these parties and he said he had bent a rebar, a half inch rebar, which that, I mean, some muscle men can do that, but you have to be pretty strong to bend a rebar and have it stay there. So I was thinking, that is ridiculous. I didn't say that, but I was thinking, that's impossible. And the same thing about this. If you bend the neck of a spoon, which is what typically people do, a person can do that, just, and it's gone. So fast that you, you can't see it.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  And then you hide it and you reveal it and it looks like you bent it. So I went to one of these parties and I heard that there was a woman there who was able to bend the bowl of the spoon just by touching it. Not by itself, but sort of touching it and moving it over. And I said, I want to see that because it's ridiculous. So I'm standing in front of this woman and she's holding it like this. She has a thumb there and a finger here. And, and so she's, I'm waiting for her to do it and I'm mimicking her because I want to, I want to see how she's doing it. You know, is it a trick? So we're doing that and nothing is happening. And then somebody says, look what you did. And I'm looking, well, somebody did something? No, Dean, look what you did. I had bent it 90 degrees. And I immediately look at my fingers.

• 1:28:32Speaker 02

  Did I do this by force? No, no indication, no indentation or anything. And so the person said, bend it all the way. So it was halfway and I, I literally went, and went all the way. So I, so now I have this spoon and I'm sort of mind boggled by it because I know it wasn't force. I'm not strong enough to be able to do that. Very few people would be able to do it. So I have another spoon, just like it. And I'm on the plane flying home and I'm, I'm trying to do it with the spoon and I suddenly get a huge shock of fear because I'm in a metal tin can 30,000 feet up and I don't know how I did it and I don't want the wings to suddenly go.

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  Because I'm

• 1:29:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  I still don't know exactly how, but I know the metallurgy now. So it turns out that if you're holding it like that and you can do between fifty and seventy pounds of force, suddenly, like an impulse, you will cause the lattice that forms the grain boundary to momentarily soften. And then for about twenty seconds, it will be really, really soft. And that's, and at that point, you can literally just take a thumb and finger like this, which is what I did, and squish it over, instantly tightens up again.

• 1:29:48Joe Rogan?

  But there's no explanation for what caused the initial force?

• 1:29:51Speaker 02

  No, because I was holding it like this, and I can't do it.

• 1:29:55Joe Rogan?

  Can you do that now?

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  No, I don't know how I did it. I do know, however...

• 1:30:00Joe Rogan?

  Is that the actual spoon you did it with?

• 1:30:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is the spoon.

• 1:30:03Joe Rogan?

  Can I feel it?

• 1:30:06Joe Rogan?

  So this is a regular spoon?

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:08Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  I want to show you the...

• 1:30:10Joe Rogan?

  It's pretty easy to bend.

• 1:30:11Speaker 02

  I want to show you this other part here. This is the motivation. So I was told...

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  Well, more importantly than that, is to take the full spoon that you have, because this is what I was working on.

• 1:30:27Joe Rogan?

  Right, this one's already weakened, right?

• 1:30:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:30:30Joe Rogan?

  No, but I mean now it is.

• 1:30:31Speaker 02

  No, that is the way it is. It's a little spongy, but you know...

• 1:30:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying, like that, I just did that.

• 1:30:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:38Joe Rogan?

  Strained it out.

• 1:30:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you have to apply a lot of force to do it.

• 1:30:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, a lot. Yeah, I gotta really strain.

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47Joe Rogan?

  And I have fat thumbs. But once it's like that, I could kind of do that pretty easily.

• 1:30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, well now, of course, you smoothed it out. So now try to do it without it being in that position.

• 1:30:58Joe Rogan?

  With just one finger, one hand?

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  No, just like this. Hold it like that, hold thumb underneath, finger on top, yeah, and bend it down. Not the neck.

• 1:31:08Joe Rogan?

  No, it's bent in the neck.

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  The shell shape resists bending.

• 1:31:13Joe Rogan?

  It's very hard to bend.

• 1:31:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, and more importantly, don't hurt your fingers on this.

• 1:31:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I can't do it.

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, I might be able to do it if it was more stable, but it's very hard to do. It's not something that's easy at all.

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, with leverage, certainly, you can do it, but there was...

• 1:31:27Joe Rogan?

  Like a clamp, maybe I could do it.

• 1:31:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31:29Joe Rogan?

  But, I mean, I would want to use both hands. I'd want to, like, get in there with my palm.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, but that's...

• 1:31:34Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  That's not what happens.

• 1:31:35Joe Rogan?

  But to do it with a finger, that's very hard to do.

• 1:31:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:37Joe Rogan?

  And you don't know how you did it.

• 1:31:39Speaker 02

  Well, so I was in a very weird state of motivation, because we were told that if you could do that without force, that you would get this button.

• 1:31:50Joe Rogan?

  Certified warm former?

• 1:31:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's called warm formering, because you're forming this as though it became warm, because it feels like putty when it actually works.

• 1:32:02Joe Rogan?

  That's what I had heard that people do with, like, the necks of them.

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, no, I wasn't interested in the neck.

• 1:32:08Joe Rogan?

  I've seen a guy do that, and he told me it was a trick.

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:10Joe Rogan?

  He goes, "I'm not going to tell you how I do it, but I'm not using magic."

• 1:32:13Speaker 02

  You could just do it.

• 1:32:14Joe Rogan?

  No, he said he was, like, doing something, like, rubbing it with his fingers, and it would, like...

• 1:32:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:32:18Joe Rogan?

  It was a specific type of spoon or something, like...

• 1:32:20Speaker 02

  But even with this spoon, I mean, you're certainly strong enough to be able to push it over.

• 1:32:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:24Speaker 02

  At the neck. The shell shape is very difficult.

• 1:32:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I can't do it.

• 1:32:30Speaker 02

  So I was told if I could...

• 1:32:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I did it. But, look, I had to use both hands.

• 1:32:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you apply leverage, and you're going to feel it tomorrow in your fingers, too.

• 1:32:39Joe Rogan?

  Nah, I'll be all right. But, yeah, this is... That's very hard to do.

• 1:32:45Speaker 02

  So, if you could do it, you'd get a button. So the next day, I was giving a talk to this conference, this was held at a conference, and I imagined myself with my suit on with the button, and it was like some kind of weird ego thing, where I felt I needed to demonstrate to the people in the audience that I can do this stuff. And it was so strange, because I'm not very egotistical, and I'm not self-aggrandizing either, but there was something about getting this stupid button that put me in a position where I felt, if I don't do this, the universe will end. I mean, that kind of level of obsessiveness.

• 1:33:21Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:33:21Speaker 02

  I needed the button.

• 1:33:23Joe Rogan?

  For no reason?

• 1:33:24Speaker 02

  Well, because I needed the button.

• 1:33:26Joe Rogan?

  I know, but that's kind of crazy.

• 1:33:28Speaker 02

  I don't know how to explain it.

• 1:33:30Joe Rogan?

  That doesn't seem like something you would be interested in, knowing you for the brief amount of time that I've known you.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  Nevertheless, that is the strange state I was in, and it's...

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  It's relevant to the idea of how traditional magic is supposed to work. There's a number of factors involved. There's belief and motivation is very important, imagination and a bunch of other things. So it's very difficult in an experiment to create that level of motivation. This is not something I want. This is something I need. I need this to happen. So, well, so I got the button. And the moment I did that, and he gave me the button, it all vanished. The whole thing about the need was suddenly, and then everything in the universe was okay again. So that's, when you, you know, you look into how magic works, you build up this sense. And there's two ways of doing it.

• 1:34:22Speaker 02

  One is very long-term meditation, where you can gain certain skills. And the other one, I call screaming at fire. So that, the image that that evokes. You're screaming at fire. It's that kind of motivation which allows things to unfold that otherwise wouldn't happen.

• 1:34:39Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. So, this state, have you ever tried to achieve this state again, under any of the circumstances?

• 1:34:47Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, in the airplane. And now I don't do that in the airplane because I, I don't know how I did it in the first place.

• 1:34:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. I've tried several times since with a quarter-inch aluminum bar. This is the same kind of bar used in aircraft. It's very strong, very stiff. And you start with it flat, and it doesn't rock at all. And so I was able to make it go so that it rocks a little bit. So it moved at a, probably a fraction of a millimeter.

• 1:35:13Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:14Speaker 02

  And using the same kind of thing, but without that crazy motivation, because I didn't have a button.

• 1:35:18Joe Rogan?

  Did you film yourself ever doing this?

• 1:35:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:35:21Joe Rogan?

  No? Has anybody ever filmed himself doing something like this?

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  There are some films of people doing this. Generally, what you see is it breaking. Like a spoon, a spoon will break here, and it'll go bleep. But again, there was a lot of research on this in the 1970s by metallurgists and physicists. Some became convinced that it's real and some came convinced that it wasn't real.

• 1:35:45Joe Rogan?

  So there's some kind of energy, some unknown energy, that you're transmitting to that spoon?

• 1:35:51Speaker 02

  I think what's happening is very similar to what's going on with these micro PKs events, micro psychokinetic events, that you're changing probabilistic structure at a very deep level, at the atomic level. And that would actually do it here. If you're able to target a, like a strip across here, you can momentarily cause the grains to shift.

• 1:36:15Joe Rogan?

  And the fact that you didn't know you did it?

• 1:36:18Speaker 02

  I didn't know how we did it. I just know what I wanted to happen.

• 1:36:21Joe Rogan?

  But did you recognize it was happening while it was happening?

• 1:36:23Speaker 02

  No, no, I was too freaked out.

• 1:36:25Joe Rogan?

  See, that's what I'm saying. That's like, so the state of mind was so peculiar.

• 1:36:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:30Joe Rogan?

  That you were doing it without even focusing on the fact that you were doing it?

• 1:36:35Speaker 02

  I'm pretty sure if I was being analytical at the time, it would not have happened.

• 1:36:39Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:01Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:41Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:58Joe Rogan?

  That's what's so weird about the whole idea of intuition, is that if you try it, if you like, you really think about it too much, then you get fucked by your own perceptions in some way. Like you skew the thing. You start defining it, and you can't see it anymore.

• 1:39:16Speaker 02

  It's, in a very general sense, it's right versus left brain. Our left brains are analytical. It's what allows us to do this sort of communication. It is maintaining stability about the way that we think the world works. The right brain isn't interested in that stuff at all. It's about form and function. That's where remote viewing and most psychic stuff takes place. And it's not simple as left and right brain, but it's generally a general idea. So, the second level of our CyJeans test. So they're both published now. So the second one, we need thousands of cases and controls in order to do this right. Like if you're studying schizophrenia, what's the genetic basis?

• 1:40:01Speaker 02

  Use tens of thousands of cases, and they know the genes now as a result. We don't have money to do that. So we've got data from 23andMe and from Ancestry and those kinds of places that give you your exome. So it's not the full genome, it's a portion of it. And we had people fill out a questionnaire of what kind of experiences you had. And then we're able to do an analysis. Is there a correlation between the two? And the answer is yes. We found 212 SNPs. These are single nucleotide polymorphisms. So it's a piece of the genome. 212 correlated with these psychic experiences, one of which correlated with a probability

• 1:40:45Speaker 02

  of a million to one. So that one's probably a real thing. So what is that SNP associated with? You go into the atlas and you can say, well, what portion of the body is that involved in? And it's involved with a whole bunch of different things happening in the brain. So anybody who's listening who has $10 million to spare and wants us to figure out what is the rest of the story, we can do that because we have the technology now.

• 1:41:12Joe Rogan?

  Elon, you've got some cash. Throw it at this thing. So when you think of consciousness, do you think that we, as individual biological entities, are interacting with consciousness and with different levels of achieving certain aspects of consciousness? Some of it being genetic, some of it being life experience, education, training, but that we're just these individual biological entities that are tapping into whatever consciousness is?

• 1:41:45Speaker 02

  Yes and no, but you see the subtitle, "How the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality." So I'm viewing this as consciousness. And the physical world are like a tapestry. They're both necessary for our understanding of reality. And they're weaved together. They're both part of it. You can't have just a physical world. Maybe you can't just have a consciousness world either. They're working together. So we are that. Our physical body, our consciousness, are woven together into the form that we currently take. So that is essentially a philosophy called dual aspect monism. There's one world of which we don't know what that is, but two things split out of

• 1:42:30Speaker 02

  it, mind and matter. But they come out of something that is uniform. It's one thing. So Carl Jung called it the unis mundis, the one world, out of which things split. Well, why does it split? His idea was that it splits because of meaning. So meaning is what caused this mind-matter split. And because they come out of the same place, they're tightly correlated, like two sides of the same coin.

• 1:42:57Joe Rogan?

  But meaning being very subjective, right? Like, what is, when you say meaning?

• 1:43:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good question, because Jung did not clearly define what he meant by meaning. We sort of know what that means, what meaning means, but it's, in that theory at least, or the philosophy, it's not clearly defined.

• 1:43:15Joe Rogan?

  So when you get down to this one thing, that these two things branch out, what is the one thing?

• 1:43:20Speaker 02

  It's the one thing that everything comes from. And also, mind and matter are two aspects that split, but there's an infinite number of other aspects that can split out of this one thing. So maybe it splits into other worlds, it splits into other universes, it splits, we don't know how, splits into aliens, we don't know.

• 1:43:41Joe Rogan?

  That's a lot of "we don't know."

• 1:43:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. When it comes down to, it comes down anywhere in science, we don't know. The leading edge, we do not know. And it's largely because science doesn't answer why. We don't know why. Why does an electron have a certain charge on it? We don't know. That's the way it is. Science observes stuff and then tries to make theories to explain it. And sometimes, really good, we can make stuff out of it. But when it comes down to brass tacks, most of the answers are, we really don't know.

• 1:44:11Joe Rogan?

  And it gets down to the base of the observable universe. You get to like quantum mechanics and quantum theory and particles being connected. Spooky action at a distance. You get to the weird stuff about quantum, the quantum world. And particles being in superposition, moving and still at the same time, being connected over vast distances. Like, wha-- that's magic. Like, whatever the hell that is, that doesn't seem to follow any of the rules of reality that we, like, average people exist in.

• 1:44:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, but our average experience is provincial. It's human-centric, at human time scales.

• 1:44:53Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:44:53Speaker 02

  And so, imagine a few thousand years ago, you look up at the dark sky and see a bunch of stars. And a couple of them look kind of fuzzy. Well, you didn't know they were galaxies. Well, you take the James Webb Telescope now, and the estimate is at least 3,000 galaxies in the observable universe. So imagine how your cosmology changes between those two. In one case, you're the center of the universe, and there's some smudgy stars, a few of them, five of them about. Now, we know we are in the middle of nowhere in some gigantic universe with basically no understanding of the rest of it. Cosmology is changing day by day. So I gave a talk on this recently

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  about how every time a new instrument extends our senses, whole new realms of reality open up that weren't even imagined before. So the reason why I'm continuing to be so interested in what is the nature of consciousness, what is the frontier, is because without consciousness, we wouldn't know anything. Quite literally, we wouldn't be aware of anything. So in some respects, we are creating all of this. And so something seems weird because we don't have the senses yet to be able to actually experience it directly.

• 1:46:11Joe Rogan?

  God, it's such a fascinating subject. And the concept of consciousness interacting with things.

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  Less than, yes, interacting, but more so that it is, everything is built of it. It's like, it's part of it.

• 1:46:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  So if you're, if you're-

• 1:46:29Joe Rogan?

  It's not just experiencing it.

• 1:46:31Speaker 02

  It is it, in a sense.

• 1:46:33Joe Rogan?

  It is it.

• 1:46:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you go all the way to full-blown idealism, which is the philosophy that everything is consciousness, everything, the physical world emerges out of consciousness, that's idealism. It turns out that almost all of the founders of quantum mechanics were idealists.

• 1:46:53Speaker 02

  Which is pretty odd, when you think about it.

• 1:46:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:55Speaker 02

  The most successful physical theory developed so far were people who are idealists, who felt that everything ultimately was consciousness. Not only that, most of them were also mystics. They read very extensively in eastern philosophy, they knew about mysticism, they were deeply into it, and that still is true for leading physicists today.

• 1:47:18Joe Rogan?

  Do you think there's ancient truths in all that, all the mystic traditions and all these different things that have existed in religious texts and-

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  There, there is truth there that has been distorted by history and language, yes. And it doesn't help that, but the, not, and I'm not going to pick on the Catholic Church, but, but religion in general, I said, of course there's magic, like, everything is magic, supernatural, fill in the blank, but don't pay too much attention to it, which is, which is kind of strange, especially in the spiritual traditions. So I had an opportunity to talk to a famous guru called Sadhguru.

• 1:47:58Joe Rogan?

  Have I had him on?

• 1:47:59Speaker 02

  Okay. So I, I asked Sadhguru, "I'm a scientist and I'm studying psychic phenomena, but within the yoga tradition and virtually every other spiritual tradition, you're told not to do that. Don't pay attention to these psychic things, they're a deflection." So I said, "Well, am I wasting my time as a scientist? I mean, what, what do I do then? And also, why did the spiritual traditions say that?" And his answer was, imagine you're riding in a car and you've never ridden in a car before, and you like the feeling of the air as it's going against your arm. Well, it might rip your arm off if you go near a tree. So the underlying story is, you're dealing with something which is so powerful, you don't know what you're doing. And it's

• 1:48:43Speaker 02

  too powerful, so don't do it. To which I was thinking, well, you're saying I shouldn't be doing this, but that only makes me want to do it more. Because, like, we need to figure out what this stuff is, right?

• 1:48:56Joe Rogan?

  Right. The idea that you should just ignore it is ridiculous.

• 1:48:59Speaker 02

  But that's what the spiritual traditions do. They say, ignore it.

• 1:49:02Joe Rogan?

  Is that so they can maintain control?

• 1:49:04Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:49:05Joe Rogan?

  So they can be the purveyors of knowledge and no one goes outside of that realm and questions the ideology?

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  Some of it is that, yes. Certainly within Catholicism, Christianity in general. Yes, don't do that. It's written into the catechism. Like, don't do this magic stuff. Because it's demonic. I mean, that's kind of beaten into your head for a long time.

• 1:49:28Joe Rogan?

  Where did that come from? Why demonic?

• 1:49:30Speaker 02

  Because it's-

• 1:49:30Joe Rogan?

  Because of the potential for it going wrong?

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  Because it's not within the bounds of the church.

• 1:49:34Joe Rogan?

  That's it.

• 1:49:34Speaker 02

  Yep. Everything else is demonic.

• 1:49:37Joe Rogan?

  Poo.

• 1:49:37Speaker 02

  And it will get you. And by the way, there's still a lot of people in our own government and in the military who believe that, and that is one of the reasons why UFOs has been deflected.

• 1:49:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, J.D. Vance said he thinks they're demons.

• 1:49:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so-

• 1:49:52Joe Rogan?

  I can't wait to ask him about that again.

• 1:49:54Speaker 02

  The same is true for psychic stuff and UFOs, right? This is demonic. People are like, we shouldn't be doing this.

• 1:50:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:01Speaker 02

  So, within spiritual traditions, the other reason given is that the power is seductive. And people are too weak. And so if you gain this power, by one means or the other, you're going to use it badly. And that probably is true. That's why, at least with the Neokic tradition, if you're going through the path where you're eventually going to gain the cities- You spend probably the first three to five years not doing that. You learn how to get your ego in check. And so that turns out to be an extremely important aspect of the yogic training. And yoga, by the way, has very little or nothing to do with the whole stretching and the maneuvers, all of that.

• 1:50:42Speaker 02

  All of the things that we think of as yoga in the West are designed to get you strong enough so you can sit in a lotus position for eight hours. Because that's where the action starts, in meditation. It's not the physical side.

• 1:50:57Joe Rogan?

  It is a reality of the human condition that if you give people that kind of power and that kind of influence over others, a large percentage will abuse it.

• 1:51:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:10Joe Rogan?

  Or at least use it for their own personal gain, to control people.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:51:14Joe Rogan?

  And to set themselves up as being godlike.

• 1:51:18Speaker 02

  So here's what I told Sadhguru. So one of the projects, because of our interest in this side genes thing, it's going to be a very complicated series of genes and probably intron sequence and so on. But nevertheless, we have the tools, we can do it, if we had enough money. Setting aside the issue about ethics, about whether or not it's a good thing to do, seven years ago, a couple of colleagues and I formed a company called Cognigenics to see if we could use genetic engineering methods to do something like that. Could we significantly enhance perception and cognition and memory and all of that stuff? So that you don't need to be a monk going into a cave for 30 years, but you can take a genetic edit and kind of get there quickly.

• 1:52:03Speaker 02

  So again, setting aside for a moment the ethics and the power seduction and all that, is it possible? And we now think it's possible. Because we've developed an intranasal delivery method for RNA interference. You shove it up the nose, you snort it up the nose, it gets into the brain and it down-regulates certain receptors.

• 1:52:24Joe Rogan?

  Is it a one-time treatment?

• 1:52:26Speaker 02

  It's a multi-time treatment because it's RNA. So RNA will last for a while and then months later you'd have to re-up it. You can do it as a one-time.

• 1:52:36Joe Rogan?

  So you could literally blast something up your nose and it'll affect your ability to do this stuff?

• 1:52:43Speaker 02

  In principle, for psychic things.

• 1:52:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:46Speaker 02

  But we see that that's far in the future. What we're doing now, as a company, is addressing dementia. So we're looking for ways of how do you, how do you fix memory loss, especially short-term memory loss? It is related to certain receptors. Turns out to be the same receptors as in psilocybin, 5-HD2A. We can down-regulate them.

• 1:53:07Joe Rogan?

  You saw that study where that, where that article recently about a woman who was, she, I believe she had dementia, but she couldn't speak anymore. She took five grams of psilocybin mushrooms and all of a sudden she could talk.

• 1:53:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. So this, this is doing that without the hallucinations and much, much longer. Psilocybin will get in and out of your body pretty quickly. The RNA interference will take, will, will come up and then stay for about a, we think, a couple of months and then slowly begin to, to decline. And so you, you would need to take this, this treatment, this intranasal treatment, probably every two or three months. And we don't know about the dosing yet. We've done studies with mice and rats and now with monkeys. So we know it works in a primate brain. The next couple of steps.

• 1:53:57Joe Rogan?

  When they do the studies with monkeys, what happens?

• 1:54:00Speaker 02

  Well, they, there are two things that you look at. Well, first of all, you want to make sure that actually gets into the brain. So you do a radioactive tag on the compound itself and then use a PET scan, a positron emission tomography. And you can then see, does it actually get out of the nose and go into the brain? The answer is yes. We can track where in the brain it's going. We mainly want it to get down to the limbic system because that's, that's where the hippocampus is and where memory is encoded. And we know from our studies with mice and rats, you get 100% improvement in memory in mice and rats that are either aged or normal. A normal mouse will get 100% improvement in memory.

• 1:54:44Speaker 02

  Exactly at the same time, they'll get a almost 100% reduction in anxiety. So as you think about a treatment for dementia, dementia patients get very anxious. So you want to calm them down and improve their memory. This does both in one shot.

• 1:54:58Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:55:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:55:01Joe Rogan?

  And what does it do to regular people? With no, no ailments?

• 1:55:06Speaker 02

  We don't know yet.

• 1:55:07Joe Rogan?

  No one's tried?

• 1:55:08Speaker 02

  Well, we don't have permission from the FDA to do clinical trials yet.

• 1:55:12Joe Rogan?

  Wink, wink.

• 1:55:15Speaker 02

  If you ask the people, if you ask-

• 1:55:17Joe Rogan?

  Someone must have done it.

• 1:55:18Speaker 02

  No, we haven't tried it yet.

• 1:55:20Joe Rogan?

  Not, not a single person has said, "Shoot it up my nose"?

• 1:55:22Speaker 02

  That would admit it, no.

• 1:55:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that would admit it.

• 1:55:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That's my point.

• 1:55:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it actually has pretty much the same effect as psilocybin, but it is only doing this one receptor. Because when you take psilocybin, there's all kinds of things going on, which is one of the reasons you get hallucinogenics. So we wanted to do this for people who probably wouldn't take a hallucinogen. It would probably come on faster and it would last a lot longer. And for some cases, like if somebody was terminal and they're losing their memory, you can make this a permanent edit as well.

• 1:55:56Joe Rogan?

  I wonder what would happen if you combined the two?

• 1:55:59Speaker 02

  Which two?

• 1:56:01Joe Rogan?

  The RNA and psilocybin.

• 1:56:04Speaker 02

  Well, we, well, once we get this approved, we'll have you do it and see what happens.

• 1:56:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, let's find out.

• 1:56:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah.

• 1:56:12Joe Rogan?

  I'll come back and quit the podcast immediately, like, I've got other things to do.

• 1:56:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, this would only last for a while. I mean, we're specifically making it temporary because if somebody had a bad trip on it, essentially-

• 1:56:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:56:25Speaker 02

  It'll, it'll eventually go away, and so it's not a big deal.

• 1:56:27Joe Rogan?

  But if you continue to do it, like brushing your teeth?

• 1:56:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, so one, one of our concerns is that because this is going to improve memory, if you, if a normal person who doesn't have dementia, would it be something that, that kids are gonna try to just snort all the time?

• 1:56:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:56:44Speaker 02

  So it's like Ritalin.

• 1:56:46Speaker 02

  That would not be good. So this would almost-

• 1:56:48Joe Rogan?

  Or would it be awesome?

• 1:56:50Speaker 02

  Let's put it this way, it probably will not ever be O T C. It's not gonna, you're not gonna be able to buy this at the drugstore.

• 1:56:58Joe Rogan?

  It's gonna be have, you'll have to be prescribed.

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  You have to be prescribed.

• 1:57:01Joe Rogan?

  So you have to find a dirty doctor in Tijuana.

• 1:57:04Speaker 02

  You also, you will need, you need a special kind of delivery system. So when you think of a nose spray, it's atomizing the stuff. It gets down into the lower nose. In order to get it into the brain, you need to shoot a stream all the way up to the back. It's like the cleft right up here. And just beyond that is a bone that separates it from the brain. A compound gets through that bone.

• 1:57:29Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  So, and it has all to do with how, how big is the, is the compound.

• 1:57:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  So similar to like, if you snort cocaine, it'll get in there, it gets in your brain because it's a certain size.

• 1:57:41Joe Rogan?

  But you can imagine if this just becomes a performance enhancing substance that normal people take, you know?

• 1:57:46Speaker 02

  That could very likely happen.

• 1:57:48Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:57:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I mean, we're, we're being very careful at this point. We have people on board who are ethicists to say, because we're talking about enhancing human performance and human cognition and perception. Can we enhance it all the way out into extrasensory perception? E S P, meaning psychic stuff? We don't know, but as I said, once we find what the polygenetic trait is.

• 1:58:13Speaker 05

  It's the story of the lady who did the mushrooms.

• 1:58:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so case study published in Frontiers in Neuroscience. Researchers focused on an 80-year-old Japanese-American woman with Alzheimer's. Her condition had declined over the last decade and was reduced to urinary incontinence, speaking in single syllables, and dependence on caregivers for mobility and support. She was then given a five-gram dose of magic mushrooms. During the initial phase, she was agitated, sweated profusely, and entered a prolonged sleep state that suggested unconsciousness. But around hour 19, she began speaking in full sentences, recalling life events she had been unable to articulate for years. In the days and weeks that followed, more incredible changes emerged. She regained urinary continence, even in the evenings, and began dressing herself.

• 1:58:58Joe Rogan?

  She was able to make and maintain eye contact, remember social interactions, emotionally respond to others, and hold lucid conversations.

• 1:59:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:59:06Joe Rogan?

  And that's one dose.

• 1:59:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so what is, what happens when you take this, when you take psilocybin? The first effect is that it is a 5Hd2A agonist. It means it's souping up that particular receptor. But the brain notices that and then it down-regulates.

• 1:59:24Joe Rogan?

  You see what it says here, "A subsequent three-gram dose of psilocybin was given to the patient and was followed by increased verbal expression, humor, and greater walking agility." Miraculously, miraculous as the mushrooms may seem, the study authors note that the patient's improvements were temporary and psilocybin did not reverse the disease as her neurodegeneration remained. They did not specifically, they did not specify exactly how long the improvements lasted. However, the researchers, the research does demonstrate that some function believed to be irrevocably lost to late-stage dementia may not be gone but merely inaccessible, and that a mushroom trip has the potential to recover it, albeit briefly. But it sounds like this would be even better at that.

• 2:00:06Speaker 02

  Well, this has the hallucinatory part in the beginning. The reason why we think this works and the reason why we're doing a down-regulation of 5Hd2A is because when you take psilocybin, it soups it up. It's an agonist. It makes it more expressed. That's when all the hallucinations and stuff happens. Then the brain compensates and it starts pushing it back down. So it starts suppressing 5Hd2A. We're doing that directly. So we would guess then that if the reason why this happened is because of the reduction of hyperactivity, which is what's involved with neurodegeneration, that it would happen immediately. So you don't, you don't need that initial push that you, you're starting right from

• 2:00:50Speaker 02

  the get-go with the reduction in this 5Hd2A.

• 2:00:53Joe Rogan?

  God, that would be a phenomenal game changer for people that are suffering from this.

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  Yes. And also, the same platform that we use to deliver this particular compound can be used with lots of other compounds. So the more that psychiatry learns about neurodegeneration and about memory loss and all that, we can just change the compound and change the receptors. So, yeah, we can do it now.

• 2:01:18Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:01:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. So this now links back into the Institute of Neuistic Sciences Psygenes Project, which launched this thing. So we're launching it in a very pragmatic way, which could help a lot of people, keeping in mind that we can go into a place where we're beginning to enhance people. That's going to take a while to get there. And again, we think carefully about is this a good thing or not?

• 2:01:46Joe Rogan?

  Why would it, of course, why would it be a bad thing?

• 2:01:48Speaker 02

  I think it's a good thing.

• 2:01:49Joe Rogan?

  What would be the bad part of it? When you, you know, tried to look at it in worst case scenario?

• 2:01:55Speaker 02

  What I have in mind is every time a new technology came along, people think this is the best thing ever. Like, I met the guy who developed trans fats, who thought he was going to help a lot of people because then they wouldn't, you know, fat wouldn't be so bad. Turned out to be really bad.

• 2:02:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:10Speaker 02

  And so unintended consequences when we're developing new things.

• 2:02:14Joe Rogan?

  Are there side effects that have been observed?

• 2:02:17Speaker 02

  Not yet. It's partially because when you do preclinical work, there's only so many things you can infer about what a mouse or a rat is doing.

• 2:02:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:02:27Speaker 02

  Now that we're doing monkeys, we do know that there were two monkeys in our test that were very aggressive. They, you get clear, near them, they'd bare their teeth, they don't want you to deal with them. They took the compound and then they were chill. For two days afterwards, having, having a single dose, those two monkeys were no longer aggressive. So that's the anxiolytic effect.

• 2:02:48Joe Rogan?

  It fix society.

• 2:02:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's a nasal spray.

• 2:02:53Joe Rogan?

  Can you imagine that? You just give it to everybody and everyone just gets along?

• 2:02:57Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, you probably need permission to do that.

• 2:03:01Joe Rogan?

  But I mean, if you just like told people that this is available and we don't, no longer have to be in conflict with each other.

• 2:03:08Speaker 02

  That would be nice.

• 2:03:09Joe Rogan?

  And we might be able to connect with each other on some new realm.

• 2:03:12Speaker 02

  That would be very nice, yes.

• 2:03:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:15Speaker 02

  And so some-

• 2:03:15Joe Rogan?

  It sounds like the, the pluses way, way outweigh what potential negatives could be.

• 2:03:22Speaker 02

  We would need to figure out first what the unintended consequences are.

• 2:03:26Joe Rogan?

  I like how you think, like a real scientist.

• 2:03:27Speaker 02

  Yes, the brain-

• 2:03:29Joe Rogan?

  I'm thinking like a person's like, let's go, give it a shot.

• 2:03:32Speaker 02

  No, the brain always compensates.

• 2:03:34Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:03:34Speaker 02

  For any kind of drug, it compensates immediately.

• 2:03:36Joe Rogan?

  There's no biological free lunch.

• 2:03:37Speaker 02

  No, so something would happen and maybe good, maybe bad, we don't know yet.

• 2:03:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, particularly for people that don't have a problem.

• 2:03:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:03:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:45Speaker 02

  Right, we're, we're targeting people who do have a problem.

• 2:03:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:48Speaker 02

  And so far, there's no treatment for it. I mean, there's, there's a couple of, of things that are mostly stimulus, stimulators, and, and they don't work that well. My dad died of dementia. I saw that happen. So I'm thinking, if I can prevent that in anybody else, just to, just to get short-term memory back. Because he, my dad had five degrees, including a law degree, made his living as a graphic artist. So he was very intellectual, but had a very pragmatic kind of job. By the time he had advanced dementia, he could no longer watch TV. And I thought, well, why not? He couldn't track what was happening in a show. He couldn't listen to audiobooks. I mean, that's not good.

• 2:04:31Joe Rogan?

  What a terrible thing for someone who just relies on their mind.

• 2:04:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I rely on my mind.

• 2:04:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:38Speaker 02

  I don't, if, I would take this stuff in a second.

• 2:04:41Joe Rogan?

  I bet you would.

• 2:04:41Speaker 02

  If, if something like that started to happen. So, yeah, I'm, I'm thinking ahead.

• 2:04:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:47Speaker 02

  So if we have time, I would, I'd like to explain one other experience that I had, which led me into thinking more about magic.

• 2:04:57Joe Rogan?

  Can I ask you one more question about those?

• 2:04:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:04:59Joe Rogan?

  If you developed some sort of a compound that gave

• 2:05:08Joe Rogan?

  real psychic ability, like some, something that was just undeniable, you, you could literally communicate with people, and you found out that this is something that you could give people as a supplement, or some sort of a medication.

• 2:05:23Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:05:24Joe Rogan?

  What, what would you do with that information?

• 2:05:28Joe Rogan?

  Would you pause?

• 2:05:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:05:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. I would pause for the same reason that Sadhguru said this is not a good idea. Because, like I, I told him, we were doing this, this research on telepathy, we might be able to make people super telepathic. He said, that would be a bad idea.

• 2:05:47Joe Rogan?

  Why?

• 2:05:47Speaker 02

  Because we ordinarily, we'd normally think of being telepathic as, as receiving other people's thoughts, but it's actually a two-way street. You could then inject thoughts.

• 2:05:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:58Speaker 02

  And control people. And he said that that would be that is would be such a seductive power for most people that unless they were had significant training beforehand, you don't want to do that.

• 2:06:11Joe Rogan?

  Significant training, like you were talking about the monks.

• 2:06:14Speaker 02

  Ego out of the way, yeah, go through meditation. And one of the things, one of the reasons why I'm interested in in the noetic sciences in general is that when somebody has an experience, whether it's psilocybin or some other method, oftentimes there's a personality transformation. The personality transformation is like the positive side of PTSD, like their mind is blown, they become pro-social, which is the fancy term, meaning they suddenly become compassionate. They become more interested in service. They want to help others. They could have been a complete jerk beforehand.

• 2:06:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:49Speaker 02

  Something changes, and it changes in a flash, and it sticks. Well, we probably ought to understand why that happens. What is it about simply getting in like a larger picture of who and what we are and what the nature of the universe is, that becomes really, really important to understand. So we know what happens, we don't know why it happens.

• 2:07:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's one of the most fascinating aspects of the psychedelic experience is the ego death, right?

• 2:07:15Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 2:07:16Joe Rogan?

  So it's also like you, you would have to have the two of them together. If you had ego death induced by psychedelics along with some sort of supplemental medication that allowed you to achieve like legitimate psychic ability.

• 2:07:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I see. You really want to do this.

• 2:07:35Joe Rogan?

  I'm fascinated by it. I would be weird, I would be weirded out by it for sure. I mean, I don't know how I would function if I was the only one who had it. I don't think that would be a fun place to be.

• 2:07:48Speaker 02

  You would have to be prepared.

• 2:07:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think it would be a real struggle.

• 2:07:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, think about in the old days when there were mystery schools, like in ancient Greece and elsewhere. So, everybody would get the drug.

• 2:08:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:00Speaker 02

  They'd have this opening.

• 2:08:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:02Speaker 02

  Some people would be opened and more or less stay open. But there was that drug experience that did an ego change. And so, you may be right, that you need to have some kind of a noetic whatever in order to push the ego down far enough to realize that we are all interconnected.

• 2:08:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:22Speaker 02

  It's all one thing.

• 2:08:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:24Speaker 02

  And so...

• 2:08:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think that idea has to get out there more. And I think it is more now than ever before. So, it's more of a common discussion that we're all connected. I feel like, over the last few decades, it's much more acceptable to discuss this concept of us being all connected without being dismissed as being a kook.

• 2:08:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:08:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so, which is part of the whole thing of like, if you don't believe it, if you're completely skeptical, you're blocking it, right? And then we have to kind of understand that there's real evidence that we are all connected. And this biological being that we live in, that is, you know, millions and millions of years of evolution have led us to this position. And over the last, you know, 20,000 years, it's filled with barbaric acts and tribalism. Like, all this stuff is encoded in us. And we have to figure out how to squash that, and how to move past it, move into whatever the next stage of the human experience is.

• 2:09:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, we had better do that.

• 2:09:31Joe Rogan?

  And it better, it better involve ego death. It can't just be the psychic ability, because then you're just gonna have manipulative psychopaths that have the ability that other people don't.

• 2:09:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:09:42Joe Rogan?

  And, of course, all these crazy people that want to control the world, and they're gonna be the ones that first have access to it.

• 2:09:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think it's not exactly ego death. It's not a complete...

• 2:09:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:09:54Speaker 02

  Right, you still need some ego, because we're embodied systems, we need to operate in the world.

• 2:09:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a bad term.

• 2:09:58Speaker 02

  It's more like a recognition of, like, you teach a kid, you're really, really angry. That doesn't mean you need to act on it.

• 2:10:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:10:05Speaker 02

  You recognize it. And like mindful meditation, you're learning that you...

• 2:10:10Joe Rogan?

  Control of the ego is a better term.

• 2:10:12Speaker 02

  Recognition of it and control, yeah.

• 2:10:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and understanding of it.

• 2:10:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:15Joe Rogan?

  Having like legitimate methods that you use to keep it in check.

• 2:10:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:10:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it's also like... In sort of encoding in people the discipline to be able to do that. Because that's also involved in controlling the ego.

• 2:10:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:10:32Joe Rogan?

  But having that and where it seems like we're if all these things come to pass and this this technology emerges and this research continues to bear fruit. You're you're looking at the potential for a completely different way of human beings interacting with each other.

• 2:10:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:10:49Joe Rogan?

  Completely different paradigm, like society moves into a totally different realm. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees and thousands of fee free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate crazy high. It's nine times the national average.

• 2:11:34Joe Rogan?

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• 2:12:15Joe Rogan?

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• 2:12:55Speaker 02

  Right. Not everybody will, are interested in that.

• 2:12:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:00Speaker 02

  So.

• 2:13:01Joe Rogan?

  A lot of people are very uninterested in that.

• 2:13:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:03Joe Rogan?

  And it would fuck with their business.

• 2:13:04Speaker 02

  Actively not interested.

• 2:13:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:07Speaker 02

  Like in, we don't want that.

• 2:13:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:09Speaker 02

  And we don't want you to have it either.

• 2:13:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a fear. That's a fear that like if you had some real breakthroughs that were somehow or another gonna be a problem for powers that be.

• 2:13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's a problem.

• 2:13:24Joe Rogan?

  Like when you hear about these scientists that are all involved with the UAP story, wind up dead or disappearing.

• 2:13:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:31Joe Rogan?

  And people say, well, statistically, this can't be a coincidence. This is a little too weird. It's gotten to some weird number where you're going, we have to look at this.

• 2:13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:40Joe Rogan?

  Now, so you hear the actual White House is not talking about it. Like, we have to look into this.

• 2:13:44Speaker 02

  So the way I keep myself safe and our other colleagues, we publish everything we do. Right? It's all, it's all public domain, so we're not doing anything that's secret.

• 2:13:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:56Speaker 02

  And the long-term consequences, most people don't think about at all. So, so that too. I mean, there are all kinds of technologies that are being developed that may have bad consequences in the future. Not that many people, except maybe professional ethicists, are thinking about, is this a good thing or not?

• 2:14:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, just imagine a world where something comes along, like, let's, for lack of a better example, let's use GLP-1s. Right? GLP-1s, nobody heard about Ozempic and Wegovy just a decade ago, right? Now, all of a sudden, it's a multi-trillion-dollar industry. It's gigantic. There's something like 39 million Americans are on these GLP-1 drugs. Imagine if something comes along that...

• 2:14:41Joe Rogan?

  Is beneficial, and I'm sure it's beneficial to obese people, but beneficial in a cognitive way for people, that you have real science, real science which actually achieves a result, this result becomes a supplement, and it becomes something widely used and spread. Imagine the forms of control that are used by society, that are used by governments, that are used by mass media, that are used by corporations in order to pass whatever regulations they want, when you see politicians talking, when you see the real agenda behind it, all of it would evaporate.

• 2:15:23Joe Rogan?

  All the bullshit, all propaganda would be completely useless. You would, you would enter into a completely new cooperative society, where all the parasites and psychopaths and sociopaths would literally be exposed, and you'd have to deal with them. You'd probably be terrified to realize how many of them are in control of so many institutions.

• 2:15:44Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:15:45Joe Rogan?

  And how much of what you've been told is complete horseshit, how many nonprofits are a scam, how many, how many different things that are happening are just happening in order to maintain control.

• 2:15:55Speaker 02

  That's why you can't do this overnight.

• 2:15:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:15:59Speaker 02

  Right? So the justice system would be totally different.

• 2:16:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:03Speaker 02

  Politics would be total, everything would be totally different.

• 2:16:05Joe Rogan?

  Economics, everything.

• 2:16:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:16:08Joe Rogan?

  Resources, everything.

• 2:16:09Speaker 02

  So there is a TV show kind of with this plot now, the one called Pluribus.

• 2:16:16Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:16:17Speaker 02

  Right, the science fiction show, which I think is doing a great job in illustrating then that people.

• 2:16:22Joe Rogan?

  But it's a nightmare.

• 2:16:23Speaker 02

  Well, people who are, who are involved in the hive mind.

• 2:16:27Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:16:28Speaker 02

  It's like suddenly everything is fine.

• 2:16:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't like it. I like the lady that gets drunk and yells at everybody.

• 2:16:32Speaker 02

  Well, because, yeah, because it's a nice, it's a nice story.

• 2:16:35Joe Rogan?

  It's also, it's more recognizable. It's a human.

• 2:16:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's, she's, she's us.

• 2:16:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, she's us.

• 2:16:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, but. And of course, there are stories like the Borg in Star Trek.

• 2:16:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:46Speaker 02

  And that, the way of hive mind is portrayed is horrific.

• 2:16:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:50Speaker 02

  Why? Because it's ego dropping. That's why.

• 2:16:53Joe Rogan?

  It also eliminates creativity, individual expression.

• 2:16:57Speaker 02

  We don't know that.

• 2:16:58Joe Rogan?

  We don't know. We think of it in the, in the show it does. In the show, everybody just becomes a worker.

• 2:17:02Speaker 02

  Not, no. In Pluribus.

• 2:17:04Joe Rogan?

  No, not a worker, but I mean, they're all connected. They're all like, they have a task.

• 2:17:08Speaker 02

  Everybody can have the skill of a surgeon.

• 2:17:10Joe Rogan?

  Mmm.

• 2:17:11Speaker 02

  Everybody, right? So, so we have a bunch of naturally creative people out there. Well, they all have it now.

• 2:17:17Joe Rogan?

  Right. That's, that's the glass half-full version of it, right?

• 2:17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:17:21Speaker 02

  So would we collectively even be more creative?

• 2:17:25Joe Rogan?

  Right. If instead of, you know, asking perplexity a question, you just ask the universe a question.

• 2:17:31Speaker 02

  You ask the collective.

• 2:17:32Joe Rogan?

  You ask the collective.

• 2:17:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:33Joe Rogan?

  How to fix a carburetor.

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then you know how to do it.

• 2:17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's, so I mean, it's from a point of view of efficiency and peace and all that stuff. I think it'd be great.

• 2:17:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also, people have to look at it this way. Just what you have now by having a phone and being able to, like I said, just ask perplexity any question on human history, any question on mathematics, coding, anything. It gives you all the available information instantaneously in your phone.

• 2:18:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:18:03Joe Rogan?

  If you just said that to someone 30 years ago, they would say you're fucking crazy. You look at all the depictions in science fiction about the future, none of them involve the internet. None of them involve phones. None of them involve devices that you carry around that have 24 hours of fucking battery life. That can essentially do whatever you want. Take pictures, make videos, record audio, download movies, watch them instantaneously. You could fucking do anything on these things.

• 2:18:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:18:31Joe Rogan?

  And we're just accustomed to it. It's just normal. Imagine a society where this technology that you're developing, imagine this, you continue this research 10, 20, 30 years. What do we have? What, what, what, what does this look like? What does you and me even talking look like? One of the reasons why I insist on doing these things in person, because I think it's a very different experience. I just intuitively, it just feels different when someone's in the room. When you're having a conversation with someone in the room, it's, I've had great conversations with people through Zoom, like with Edward Snowden when we do podcasts. We have to do it that way for obvious reasons. But there's something missing. People, when you and I are talking right now, there's something else going on.

• 2:19:16Joe Rogan?

  We're, we're, we're, our minds are connecting and we're connecting somehow with all the people that are listening. There's this weird thing that happens and it happens when people in proximity to each other, when they're right in the same room with each other. There's something to that.

• 2:19:30Speaker 02

  Right. So now think of the, the downside, the, the compensation for having phones everywhere.

• 2:19:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:19:38Speaker 02

  So you talk to teachers about it and they are running scared.

• 2:19:41Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:19:42Speaker 02

  Right? Kids don't know how to write anything anymore.

• 2:19:45Joe Rogan?

  No attention span.

• 2:19:46Speaker 02

  And, and not only that, if you start relying on, on Perplexity or any other kind of AI, you're in serious trouble because those things are not perfect.

• 2:19:54Joe Rogan?

  Right. Right. They have hallucinations.

• 2:19:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:57Joe Rogan?

  They give you bad information.

• 2:19:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:19:58Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure you saw this, uh, there was a, a gentleman who was recently, um, he was a lawyer involved in a case and he was citing these.

• 2:20:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:20:07Joe Rogan?

  You know that story?

• 2:20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:08Joe Rogan?

  So he's citing various cases that just didn't exist.

• 2:20:11Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:20:12Joe Rogan?

  And he had gotten them from AI.

• 2:20:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:15Joe Rogan?

  And.

• 2:20:15Speaker 02

  It probably looked structurally correct, except it wasn't actually real.

• 2:20:18Joe Rogan?

  He thought he had it, like, beautiful, I got this case wrapped up. And the judge was like, none of these things you're saying have happened. They're not true.

• 2:20:27Speaker 02

  That's some other world.

• 2:20:28Joe Rogan?

  Bizarre, right? Well, hopefully that'll get ironed out, right? But the point is, you're relying now on the device to do all the thinking for you.

• 2:20:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:38Joe Rogan?

  And you're not, you're not absorbing much of that information. You're not absorbing it the same way.

• 2:20:43Speaker 02

  I can say as a scientist that AI is making my job much, much, much easier. So I use Claude Code a lot. We use it also in our genetic research. It, it is making things more efficient because it, basically for coding up until things like Claude Code, it took a lot of skill and time to be able to write something that did what you wanted to do.

• 2:21:06Joe Rogan?

  But you're already a disciplined thinker. You're not a developing mind.

• 2:21:10Speaker 02

  Well, not only that, but when I ask, I ask AI to help me write something, I immediately see all kinds of things that it doesn't know. You know, I say, well, where did, where did you even get that information? It basically responds, well, I scraped it off of the entire internet. Well, you didn't scrape very well because, you know, did you look at this? And did you look at this and that? And it comes back immediately and says, oh, I apologize. I didn't, I didn't look at that part. Because the algorithms are designed to work fast.

• 2:21:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:38Speaker 02

  And so it'll pull like the, the surface off and usually that's okay.

• 2:21:43Joe Rogan?

  It could be a troll Reddit post where someone's just fucking around.

• 2:21:46Speaker 02

  Who knows what it is? It's like half of Wikipedia is written by teenagers.

• 2:21:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:50Speaker 02

  So, yeah, so you, you need to already have a, a knowledge base so they can challenge what it's telling you because sometimes it's completely off.

• 2:21:57Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, this is in the beginning stages of this application, right? If you think about the beginning stages of the printing press, most of the books were like how to spot, spot witches.

• 2:22:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's true. So one hopes that things will, well, of course, the, the danger at this point is the AI is eventually right itself.

• 2:22:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:22:16Speaker 02

  And it's already getting to that point. And then we completely lose what's going on. We have no idea.

• 2:22:21Joe Rogan?

  Right. That gets weird.

• 2:22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. That, that was already true with the development of neural networks. So I was using neural networks back in the eighties when the first idea first came up. And so you would, you would learn that this is related to that. And it would do it through the neural network training. And then you say, well, what did you learn? You couldn't figure it out because you have all of these, these weights and nodes inside the network that were encoding the information, but you couldn't then extract out from it to say, well, what, how, how did you learn this? It couldn't even tell you how it learned it, but it did and learned it really well. So that's, a lot of that is going on in the AI world too. That it's learning things really, really well, but it's too complex for us to understand.

• 2:23:08Joe Rogan?

  Right. But do you think if you emphasize disciplined thinking and teach people specifically how to think and how to learn and how to do for themselves, that they could then expand upon that knowledge with AI instead of using it as a crutch?

• 2:23:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:23:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:23:26Speaker 02

  Yes. Is that happening? I haven't seen that yet.

• 2:23:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, I haven't seen it either, but one of the things that gives me pause is the popularity of long-form conversations like this. Because we have this concept about today and about human beings in general that we're losing our attention span. But yet, what's one of the most popular mediums? It's long-form podcasts.

• 2:23:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:46Joe Rogan?

  Right? Because I think there is still a hunger from a lot of people. And whether it's people that grew up at a different time, where they did learn how to think, and now they're missing it, and then they could find it in long-form conversations? Or whether it's just always going to be something that some people intuitively gravitate towards, because they need more stimulation than they're getting from these simple TikTok videos and Instagram reels.

• 2:24:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:11Joe Rogan?

  And I think there's, like, we have this generalization about the perceptions of people. And they go, oh, we've lost all of our ability to concentrate. Like, we don't care, everyone has a short attention span. I don't think everyone. I think a lot of people, because it's easy. All right? If you leave junk food in front of a lot of people, they will eat it. If you leave healthy food in front of disciplined people, they will say, I don't want the junk food, I'm gonna have the eggs, and I'm gonna eat healthy. I'm gonna take vitamins, I'm gonna do what I'm supposed to do because I know the benefits of it, because I'm a thinking person.

• 2:24:42Speaker 02

  Right. You may still want the junk food.

• 2:24:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:24:45Speaker 02

  But you're able to override that.

• 2:24:46Joe Rogan?

  Yes, you're able to do disciplined thinking, right? So I think maybe education will move into a realm of being able to understand your own personal psychology. You know, understand the value of discipline and the value of having a structure to the way you think, and being able to apply those things, and then also recognizing that whatever this AI is doing is just giving you information, it doesn't make you smarter.

• 2:25:11Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:25:11Joe Rogan?

  It's not giving you more knowledge, it's just giving you data. And you have to then learn how to assimilate that data in an actionable way, where you could use it in life.

• 2:25:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:25:20Joe Rogan?

  And we could teach people how to do that, maybe.

• 2:25:23Speaker 02

  I hope so.

• 2:25:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, it seems possible. But again, it's like every single technology that comes around. When television came around, people were terrified. People were just gonna stare at the TV all day. And a lot of them did.

• 2:25:33Speaker 02

  They do, yeah.

• 2:25:33Joe Rogan?

  A lot of them did. But also, television, which led to the internet. Well, yeah, it's definitely distracting people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, we have more access to information, more of an understanding of so many different things than have ever before. And you have the ability to have a conversation like this.

• 2:25:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:25:51Joe Rogan?

  A three-hour weird conversation about a very esoteric subject.

• 2:25:55Speaker 02

  It's not that weird.

• 2:25:56Joe Rogan?

  No, I mean, it's not weird. It's cool.

• 2:25:59Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, it's different.

• 2:26:00Joe Rogan?

  It's exciting. I mean, for the people that are interested in this kind of conversation, this is like food for them. You know, they're like, oh, exciting. You know? I guarantee you, a bunch of people will see this and see the description of it in Spotify and go, ooh, this is gonna be a good one. You know? Because there's a lot of people that have a hunger for interesting things. You know? I'm not a dooms guy when it comes to technology. I have a feeling we're gonna sort it out. But I think it's gonna be a, it's gonna be a bit of a battle, a bit of a struggle. It's gonna, it's a new thing. And you're gonna, exceptional people are always going to exist. And there's always gonna be people that aren't gonna be willing to just give in to whatever this thing is that gives them this crutch and just become a blob that just presses buttons

• 2:26:45Joe Rogan?

  to get information instead of thinking. I think people are always gonna wanna think. It's part of what's fascinating about being a person, is learning new things, expanding your understanding of things. And just pretending you do is a, it's a party trick. But the real, people that, the real fascination is actually learning something that changes your perceptions. I think people are always gonna want that.

• 2:27:07Speaker 02

  Well, I'm optimistic because humanity, at least our species, is extremely resilient.

• 2:27:13Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:27:14Speaker 02

  So, all of us have some percentage of mutations, which is part of the resilience. I forget exactly, 11% or something like that. Every, every single person, even identical twins.

• 2:27:27Speaker 02

  That's why we can survive an asteroid hit, or that's why we can survive a mistake that happened somewhere.

• 2:27:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:33Speaker 02

  So, ultimately, I'm optimistic about it.

• 2:27:36Joe Rogan?

  I am too, but, I mean, I'd look back at things like, you know, I mean, there's been moments in society, like, you look at the pyramids, you go, okay, what happened? Where are those folks?

• 2:27:45Speaker 02

  They took off.

• 2:27:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I don't know. What do you think happened?

• 2:27:51Speaker 02

  An asteroid, or, I don't know, I mean, it could have been the Ice Age, right? We don't, still don't know exactly how old the pyramids are.

• 2:28:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:01Speaker 02

  So, it may have been the Ice Age, and now they all moved to Africa, and they're Africans now.

• 2:28:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Something, something definitely happened, some strange shift. And that's the, the question is, how many times has that happened over the course of human civilization? We want to think of it as been this linear progression from caveman to where we are now. It doesn't seem to be accurate.

• 2:28:20Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so.

• 2:28:21Joe Rogan?

  But there's a lot of people, along with the same type of people, that want to resist the idea, even if you have data, they don't want to look at it because they think it's nonsense. There's, there's also a perception of that, like, there's no way people were more advanced 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 years ago than they are now. That's not possible. Like, well, it kind of is.

• 2:28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:42Joe Rogan?

  Kind of, it's not impossible, that's for sure. And there seems to be some very weird evidence in the form of 2,300,000 perfectly cut stones that point to true north, south, east, and west, that were put in place by the civilization that just emerged out of nowhere with this ability. Kind of weird, that's kind of weird, too, to pretend it's not, and just write it off to, oh, people were smart, like, yeah, yeah, that's it, that's it. Seems like they knew some shit we don't know. They, they did something we can't explain to this day.

• 2:29:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:29:17Joe Rogan?

  Like, I don't know if I would be so confident as to be able to say that there's a linear progression from caveman to us. I don't think that's true.

• 2:29:26Speaker 02

  No. Hardly anything in, in the natural world is linear.

• 2:29:31Joe Rogan?

  Which just scares me, if we fuck it all up right now, and we have a nuclear war, and there's only like 50,000 people left, like, how long before we get to this position where we're trying to almost get past this again?

• 2:29:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like it's rough adolescence.

• 2:29:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:47Speaker 02

  And so it's true. How long do you need to take? Do you need a hundred thousand years of a high technology society? Maybe. Well, where are we? Well, like twenty years, fifty years?

• 2:29:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:58Speaker 02

  Into it and yeah, we're having a problem.

• 2:30:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's where things get really weird when people start talking about UAPs and these, whatever these beings are, if they are real. Like, are they us? Are they us from the future that is coming back to make sure that we don't fuck it up and to sort of hold our hand through this experiment and just watch and observe on the outside in case things go horribly wrong, but allow all these mistakes to take place and allow this progression to take place and just wait it out?

• 2:30:30Speaker 02

  I'm a fan of Hal Puthoff's ultra-terrestrial idea, that these are not from the future, they're from the past. They just happen to be way more advanced than we thought.

• 2:30:41Joe Rogan?

  The past?

• 2:30:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:43Joe Rogan?

  Like how far in the past?

• 2:30:45Speaker 02

  A million years? More? Hundred thousand? Something like that. It's because you think about convergent evolution. So when I was at UNLV, one of the places nearby was a ornithology laboratory, so birds. So I would, I went to the museum and I said, oh, these are very nice penguins here. And the director said, those aren't penguins. Well, what is that? It looks exactly like a penguin. No, those are auk. So there's different birds from the North Pole and the South Pole because of convergent evolution were shaped to be like this bird. And so, I mean, they looked absolutely identical to me because I don't

• 2:31:28Speaker 02

  know that much about penguins anyway. But I said, it looks like a penguin. It's not a penguin.

• 2:31:33Joe Rogan?

  And they evolved independently in the north and south?

• 2:31:35Speaker 02

  Yes. And so why is it that the aliens, that we?

• 2:31:39Joe Rogan?

  That's not a penguin?

• 2:31:42Speaker 02

  Probably an hawk.

• 2:31:44Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:31:45Speaker 02

  I know, it's crazy.

• 2:31:46Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:31:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, so we had one of those and had actual penguin next to each other in the museum and I thought, well, that, you know, what is that?

• 2:31:55Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:31:56Speaker 02

  So, a lot of these aliens that people talk about are basically like humans.

• 2:32:01Joe Rogan?

  Hawks can fly and swim and they're smaller.

• 2:32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:06Joe Rogan?

  Wow, but they're so similar, even the color.

• 2:32:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, the color, the shape.

• 2:32:10Joe Rogan?

  The color is crazy. Like, what is the benefit of the color? The whole thing is very odd.

• 2:32:16Speaker 02

  So, why do we have so-called Nordic aliens that look a lot like people in Scandinavia?

• 2:32:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:32:23Speaker 02

  But, I mean, you think either come from a planet that is almost exactly Earth-like, which is possible, I guess, or they've already been here, they've been here a long, long time. And the same for many of the other aliens that people talk about. It's, they're humanoid. Well, humanoid is shaped for evolution to be in a certain place. Because like, we're so well-shaped by evolution that we can go outside on an average place and even though there's only a couple of miles of atmosphere, we're perfectly fine.

• 2:32:58Joe Rogan?

  Are you aware of those examples of very bizarre heads that they've found, skulls they've found in places like Peru that don't have the sagittal suture, that have a brain capacity that's 30% larger than ours? There's some weird skeletons.

• 2:33:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Gary Nolan talked about this, I think.

• 2:33:15Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:33:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And there's real examples of it. These aren't theoretical, like, you can find these skulls that have a larger brain capacity. And, you know, they've attributed to a real practice of flattening heads, shaping skulls, that's a real practice. But the question has become, was, did that real practice emerge to mimic?

• 2:33:39Joe Rogan?

  A type of creature that was alr- that already existed.

• 2:33:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:33:42Joe Rogan?

  Because these skulls, see if you can find one of them, Jamie. They're very weird looking. Like, they're very weird. They're big. They're bigger than a normal human skull. They have more brain capacity. And it's in elongated shape. It's a different shape. This is not like a science fiction theory. This is not like an artist's rendition. This is an actual, real skull. That doesn't have the sagittal suture. No, no, no, that's the alien things. These are, that's a, that's those, uh, those monstrat. That's that thing that a lot of people think is a fraud.

• 2:34:18Speaker 05

  Those skulls they were talking about, no?

• 2:34:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, but there's actually elongated skulls that they found. Elongated skull, just, don't pull in tridactyl mummy. Just put in, uh, elongated skull, no sagittal suture. There you go. Like that. That one right there. Like, what the fuck is that? That does not look like a person. That is a real skull.

• 2:34:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, so some of that is shaping.

• 2:34:48Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:34:48Speaker 02

  Right?

• 2:34:49Joe Rogan?

  Some of it, some of these are, but the ones without the sagittal suture are really weird.

• 2:34:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:54Joe Rogan?

  Because that's a thing that all human babies have. Because as your brain grows and your head grows, your, you know, your, your brain, your skull is kind of malleable. That doesn't have it. And some of these that they found actually have more brain capacity. So the shaping of it wouldn't change the brain capacity. So some of them do have that sagittal crest, that sagittal suture. Some of them don't. And that one that you showed up there, I, I hope that's not AI. That one doesn't. I think that's real.

• 2:35:27Speaker 05

  Could just be hard to see.

• 2:35:28Joe Rogan?

  Could be. Could be, but it's been described by people who have examined them as being different. There's also the positioning of where it connects with the spine is different. Oh, Sarah, that goes right there. Uh, where the spinal column enters the bottom of the skulls, very much further back than normal. A genetic adaptation. Or a different kind of person.

• 2:35:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:35:50Joe Rogan?

  A different kind of person that coexisted. Like, look at that one right there, Jamie, the Eby Cuscheron. Click on that. That's crazy. Like, that is really crazy.

• 2:35:59Speaker 05

  That's a replica.

• 2:36:01Joe Rogan?

  Wild looking. But, that's a replica. So what's the real one? The real one is the one that you showed that has Instagram on it. That's a real one.

• 2:36:09Joe Rogan?

  Like, that is kind of bananas.

• 2:36:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:12Joe Rogan?

  And if that's not done through forming of the skull and pushing the skull into the new shape, what is it? And were they doing that because they were trying to mimic something that was superior to them?

• 2:36:23Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:36:23Joe Rogan?

  And that's where it gets weird. Like, those real elongated skulls in a museum up there, right above your cursor? Yeah, to the left, right there. That's crazy looking, man. That's really crazy looking. And again, that one doesn't seem to have that sagittal suture.

• 2:36:41Joe Rogan?

  Neither does that one down there that says 118. They're fucking strange. So if that was an actual different kind of human being that existed along with us, God, that explains a lot.

• 2:36:54Speaker 02

  Well, they're not here anymore.

• 2:36:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:36:56Speaker 02

  Unless they're ultra-terrestrials and they're living in the bottom of the ocean.

• 2:37:00Joe Rogan?

  Right. I don't know about that. But if they are, if that's them, who knows? I mean, you could get to a point where a civilization becomes so advanced that the biological entities aren't necessary anymore. And then that would explain why they could exist at the bottom of the ocean, why they could exist with no oxygen, why they could, they no longer become dependent upon their environment to survive.

• 2:37:26Speaker 02

  They might have creative environments.

• 2:37:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:37:30Speaker 02

  Like the, like the movie, uh, there was a movie.

• 2:37:36Speaker 02

  I forget the name now.

• 2:37:38Joe Rogan?

  What was the premise?

• 2:37:39Speaker 02

  It was that there's a ship and, um, there's like a missing submarine and so they, they dive down to it, but then they see lights coming up.

• 2:37:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the abyss?

• 2:37:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:37:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that was a great movie.

• 2:37:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:51Joe Rogan?

  That was a good one. Yeah. Well, there's always been stories about, I mean, Tim Burchett, the congressman, came on this podcast and was talking about how there's five different locations in the deep ocean that they're aware of activity, that things have happened there, that continue to happen. But if you were gonna study Earth, if you, if you had to be like local, like where would you go? I mean, if you can come here from another dimension, another galaxy, or wherever you're coming from, you'd probably go in the ocean. You'd have, I mean, they'd observe these transmedium crafts that are able to fly and go into the water.

• 2:38:26Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that orc, that orc thing, isn't that kind of transmedium? It flies, swims?

• 2:38:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Could be an alien, it's an alien form of a penguin.

• 2:38:36Joe Rogan?

  But it is, at a certain point in time, you would imagine if we could get far more advanced than we are now, and we found out about a society that is at a stage where we are currently, for sure we'd go visit. For sure we'd observe. And we would also probably try to stop nuclear war.

• 2:38:55Speaker 02

  It is an interesting question, because the prime directive in Star Trek is you don't mess with them.

• 2:39:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:39:01Speaker 02

  Right, but they always do.

• 2:39:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, Star Trek is, they didn't even have the internet. They had walkie talkies, Kirk out.

• 2:39:09Speaker 02

  No, well, they had, no, they had the communicator thing, so we don't know.

• 2:39:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you're talking about the next generation?

• 2:39:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, we don't know how that worked.

• 2:39:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm talking about the original.

• 2:39:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, the original is pretty good, though.

• 2:39:18Joe Rogan?

  Really good?

• 2:39:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:20Joe Rogan?

  Especially when you think about it was like the 19, what, 60s when it came out?

• 2:39:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so part of my, my personal mission was to make Star Trek real. That's, that's like, it's.

• 2:39:30Joe Rogan?

  Including beaming people up?

• 2:39:32Speaker 02

  Oh, no, it's like the Vulcan, the most rational creature on there was the one who could do the mind meld.

• 2:39:37Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:39:38Speaker 02

  That's why I was thinking, yeah, okay. An advanced species, this stuff is taken for granted.

• 2:39:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:39:46Speaker 02

  That's, that's where my vision is seeing. Yeah, and so that advanced species may be us, might need a little evolutionary push with genetics, but yeah, we could do that, too.

• 2:39:56Joe Rogan?

  So in this concept of the ultra terrestrial, that these things have come from the past, like, how are they here?

• 2:40:03Speaker 02

  They've always been here.

• 2:40:04Joe Rogan?

  They've always been here. They just exist, but they exist in a different way?

• 2:40:08Speaker 02

  Well, so imagine, even given current technology, if there was another ice age coming, and we may have a thousand years to prepare, would we be smart enough to do that? I don't know. Could we do it? Yes, we probably could.

• 2:40:23Joe Rogan?

  Boy.

• 2:40:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then, so, so another thousand years passes and you're below ground somewhere, and then there are the cavemen who are beginning, well, do we interact with them or not? Well, it's an interesting question. Like, we, we don't want to get involved in all that mess, because we don't.

• 2:40:41Joe Rogan?

  Sort of like how we don't visit North Sentinel Island?

• 2:40:45Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 2:40:46Joe Rogan?

  You know, like those people that live the uncontacted tribe?

• 2:40:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:50Speaker 02

  It's like.

• 2:40:51Joe Rogan?

  You're literally not allowed to go there.

• 2:40:54Speaker 02

  Let them develop the way they shall develop, yeah.

• 2:40:56Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can, I can, I could accept that.

• 2:41:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's, if, if it turns out that there is some activity, that there are some things that we can't explain that are happening from deep in the ocean, we're gonna have to come up with some sort of an explanation. If that is an actual intelligent species, an intelligent life form, something, whatever it is, there's gotta be some explanation for that. So, the ultra-terrestrial one is just as good.

• 2:41:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's an explanation for everything. The question is, A, are we smart enough to figure it out? And B, how long will it take? And, and both of those are complete unknowns. But that's, I mean, that's yet another reason why I like the kind of work that I do, that you need to have very high tolerance for ambiguity, of which I do. Like, I'm, I'm okay with not knowing a lot of, basically, everything. I, I know enough to be able to be dangerous, but otherwise, I, I don't mind that I don't know.

• 2:41:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm very thankful that people like you are out there. Cause if you weren't out there doing this work, and you weren't out there expanding on this, I mean, it, it's really fascinating when, if, if something like this does emerge, it would change the human race. And think about the small amount of people that are involved in this research.

• 2:42:16Speaker 02

  Tiny.

• 2:42:17Joe Rogan?

  It's kind of, kind of crazy.

• 2:42:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:42:19Joe Rogan?

  It's a huge responsibility you have, in a lot of ways.

• 2:42:22Speaker 02

  Well, fortunately, I also enjoy it. So, I, I mean, I'm, I'm having fun while I'm doing this, uh, cause otherwise, I, I don't think I would have chosen some other door. I mean, I had plenty of opportunities to, to work with Golden Handcuffs somewhere, but I, I get bored easily. And this is the one area where I have never gotten bored.

• 2:42:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm very thankful. Thank you for being here, too. And tell everybody where they can get, did you do an audio version of this book?

• 2:42:48Speaker 02

  Uh, I have an actor do it because I don't want anybody to have to suffer with 12 hours of my voice. Cause it won't last that long. Yeah. So, there's, there's an actor that does it, is very, very good.

• 2:43:02Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, this is, there's one other story I want to say that's in the book. So this is a synchronicity which, again, gave me the idea that we don't know the limits of what we're dealing with, which is important. So I had mentioned that after interval, we started a nonprofit. This was called Boundary Institute. It was in Silicon Valley. We found an office park in Los Altos, which is just outside of Silicon Valley. And so, we found a space, liked it, we decided to get that. So that's where our new place would be. So I were close enough to where I lived, so I was able to walk to work. I always walked a certain way. One day, I decided to walk a different way.

• 2:43:45Speaker 02

  And I go past another office called SciQuest, Inc., PSI, Quest, Inc. And I thought, that's an interesting coincidence, because we're doing sci-research, and now we have SciQuest, Inc. We thought it was Personnel Services Incorporated, something. We didn't know what it was. We thought that was funny. About three weeks go by, and I decide to walk a different way to work. I'm going through this office place different ways. And I notice that right next to our office is something with a tiny little sign that says SciQuest Labs. And so now, we're thinking, what does a Personnel Services thing need with a laboratory? So I look through the mini-blinds, there's nobody in there. So now, I'm determined to find out, what are you guys doing?

• 2:44:30Speaker 02

  So every day, over the next couple of weeks, I go past that place, I knock on the door, and I'm looking through the blinds, there's nobody there. Finally, one day, I see somebody in there, knock on the door, and I'm going to say, hello, my name is... The door opens, the guy's jaw drops. Before I could say my name, and he says, Dean Radin? And now, I'm thinking, well, I have never seen you before, I don't know who you are, how do you know who I am?

• 2:44:59Speaker 02

  So he says, who says his name, and I said, "Well, what are you doing here?" "I'm doing what you're doing." "What do you think we're doing?" "Cyber search, parapsychology, like what you're doing." So I had to sit down at that point because we knew everybody in the world who's doing this. There's only like 40 of us around the world in maybe five or six different locations. Here is a psi research laboratory in Silicon Valley that no one has ever heard about before. And so I said, "Well, how did you know who I was?" Even if you knew, you know, we had nothing in our door that said it was psi research. It said Boundary Institute.

• 2:45:40Speaker 02

  He said, "I was looking to contact you because I want you to be on my board of directors, but I didn't know where you were, and I didn't know how to contact you." So I opened the door, and there I am. So I said, "Well, what were you doing?" He was doing an exercise called yoga nidra, which is the yoga of sleep, but there's a magical element to it as well. So over a course of 24 hours, for three hours he was awake, three hours he sleeps, back and forth over the course of 24 hours. While awake, he's picturing that I show up. And so I opened the door, and that's why his jaw dropped, because at that point, he was awake, he was walking around, but I showed up, and he was trying to make me show up.

• 2:46:25Speaker 02

  So in a sense, he manifested me. Now, I think I have free will. Like, we freely chose that office next door, I freely went to the door, I freely did everything, but apparently it was being pulled by him. So, well, that was strange. And so I said, "Well, so how are you doing this? What are you doing?" And so he gave me a tour of his laboratory, and that's when my jaw dropped, because what I had been doing, adjacent wall next to his, without knowing what's going over there, on a whiteboard, I was drawing a special kind of chair that we wanted, and a special shielded room, and equipment and everything, on the whiteboard. That's what he had.

• 2:47:07Speaker 02

  The other side of that wall is what he had in his laboratory.

• 2:47:12Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:47:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's like a four-part synchronicity where I was drawing to me what I wanted. I didn't know it was the other side of the wall, but I was drawing it into existence. He was, at the same time, drawing me. We had the same intentions, draw each other essentially, and we literally got pulled into the same location at the same time.

• 2:47:34Joe Rogan?

  That's incredible.

• 2:47:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it was so incredible that I told the other guys in our institute, and in a sense, they understood what was happening because they saw the same laboratory and stuff. After a while, we never talked about it again. But, I mean, it was so bizarre and so magical, in a sense, that we all thought we were doing things of our own free will, but apparently not. So I started looking into yoga nidra, the magical side of it. It's all about intention. It's focused intention in a non-ordinary state, and it is literally a magical practice out of the yoga tradition.

• 2:48:16Speaker 02

  So yeah, another reason why I'm writing about the science of magic, the real magic, and showing how a lot of the science that we know now actually overlaps.

• 2:48:25Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:48:26Speaker 02

  It's not at the level of what you would get in Harry Potter, but nevertheless, a lot of it is real.

• 2:48:34Joe Rogan?

  Thank you for telling that story. That's awesome. Thank you for being here, too.

• 2:48:37Speaker 02

  You're welcome.

• 2:48:38Joe Rogan?

  This was really exciting. I really enjoyed it very much.

• 2:48:40Speaker 02

  Good. Thank you.

• 2:48:41Joe Rogan?

  So the book, The Science of Magic.

• 2:48:43Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:48:44Joe Rogan?

  Available everywhere. Thank you.

• 2:48:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:48:47Joe Rogan?

  Is this for me?

• 2:48:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:48:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I got a copy. All right. Thank you very much. This is really, really, really fun.

• 2:48:52Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:48:53Joe Rogan?

  Let's do it again. I'm excited to hear where you go with this stuff.

• 2:48:56Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:48:56Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 2:48:57Speaker 02

  Maybe next time I'll bring that nose spray.

• 2:48:58Joe Rogan?

  Let's do it. Bring it. All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody.

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