282. Can we change our personality?

It feels like the personality we have is the one we're stuck with, regardless of how much we wish we were different...but is that really the case? In today's episode we are joined by writer and author Olga Khazan who ran a year long experiment to see how much she could change her personality to be more outgoing, less anxious and hopefully, happier. We discuss: The root of all personalities What does science say is the best kind of personality When does personality become stable Is it possible to change? How could we change our personality? The results of her experiment then & now + much more Listen now! Olga's book here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Me-But-Better/Olga-Khazan/9781668012543 PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.psychologyofyour20s.com/general-clean https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/ Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Jemma Sbeg?

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• 0:49Jemma Sbeg?

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• 2:54Jemma Sbeg?

  Today, let's talk about destiny or something that feels strangely attached to it. Let's talk about personality, whether it's fixed or it can be changed, how it shapes our future, our beliefs, maybe even how happy we are. Personality is like a little bit of a black box. Like, we know it's shaped by nature and nurture. We know that genetics are involved, how we were raised is kind of involved. But I think as we get older, we become more aware of the parts of ourselves that are holding us back and that, you know, we really would wish for something different. Well, today I have the honour of interviewing someone who has investigated that very possibility. What if we could be ourselves but better by rewiring our personality? I want to welcome our author and journalist, Olga Hazan. Thank you for joining us.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

• 3:41Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm very, very excited for this episode and this topic in general. But before we kind of jump into it, can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience and your work?

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Sure. My name's Olga Hazan and I'm a staff writer at The Atlantic Magazine. And I'm also an author of books. This is my second book and it is actually, it kind of stems from a cover story I did for The Atlantic a few years ago. So that's, that's my backstory.

• 4:11Jemma Sbeg?

  And you're not going to give us any spoilers? I feel like the, the cover story, like you go into it kind of in the book, right?

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. I can. I can give you a spoiler. So the the cover story, I kind of experimented very lightly with changing my personality, but then I kind of realized that I needed to do more and that it, you know, kind of letting up on the experiment, I backtracked, I noticed that I was sort of falling back into old patterns. So the book is really an overview of the five traits of personality, my personal attempts to change on three of them. And because the other two, I actually don't need to change. They're fine. They're very high in me as it is. But I do interview other

• 4:59Speaker 02

  people who increased on those traits through various methods.

• 5:03Jemma Sbeg?

  We're gonna get to that because I feel like it's such an interesting premise. But I do also want to talk about how you became a journalist, how you became a writer. I think as much as I love interviewing people about the very, you know, amazing niche things that they're doing. And they're like, whether it's psychology or neuroscience or anything like that, you know, this podcast is for people in their 20s and a lot of people probably aspire to do what you do. Can you kind of talk us through how you got from maybe graduating high school to where you are now?

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah. Wow. That's a long time ago.

• 5:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, just to give us an overview of your entire life, please and thank you.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Graduated from high school like 20 years ago. Then I I went to college, did not major in journalism, but really found myself drawn to journalism. I did an internship in journalism. And then I went to graduate school after I graduated from college, which is not like a necessary step for anyone listening at home, but it is something that I did. Then I got a job at the Washington Post out of graduate school and I worked there for a brief time. And then I moved to the Atlantic in 2013. And I've worked at the Atlantic ever since. And I've done a couple of different jobs there, but I've mostly been a writer covering like health and human behavior.

• 6:28Jemma Sbeg?

  Well, that's my, that's the perfect topic for this. Do you remember like what your first big piece of writing was? Like your first article where you were like, oh my gosh, like I'm a journalist?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, that probably was, so when I did my internship in college, I wrote one story during that internship. It was complex why I only wrote one, but that was like the amount that I was allowed to write. And it was about online gaming addiction. And I remember when it came out, I felt so just accomplished. Like, I was like, yes, like, my life is all coming together. And of course, like, I wouldn't be a full time writer for, I think, eight years after that. But it was, it was like, very good motivation to keep going.

• 7:20Jemma Sbeg?

  You know, I love stories like that, where it's like, okay, just because your dream isn't happening right now, doesn't mean that it's not going to come true eventually. Like, as you said, you had this, like, what sounds like this big accomplished moment, and, you know, it really didn't come full circle until, what did you say, like, 10 years ago, almost, maybe 12 years ago?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:37Jemma Sbeg?

  We love hearing those stories on the show. Let's talk about this book. The premise of this book was basically that cover story and this idea that you wanted to change your personality. Why did you feel like it was necessary? Like, why did you feel like you had to do that?

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so your personality, you know, a lot of people think it's sort of like what you like or dislike, or sort of the kinds of things you say, or whatever. But it's really a lot about your reactions to situations. And kind of like, something comes across your way, and are you like, yes, let's do it? Or are you like, oh, I don't know about that? Or, you know, it's kind of like how you interact with the world. And I noticed that a lot of how I was interacting with the world was not helping me, really. So, the intro to the book kind of gives a good overview of this. But I had this day, this is before I had a kid, and it was like, now, having had a kid, I'm like, wow, this was actually like

• 8:36Speaker 02

  a fantastic day. I should have just appreciated it. But, you know, it was like, I got stuck in traffic, I got a bad haircut, I got photos taken that looked really bad.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  I had a stressful thing where I had to like pick my mom up at the airport, but I had to go grocery shopping before. But the like, there was like a delay at the grocery store and then I was gonna be late to pick up my mom. And it was like this whole thing and I just had a meltdown. I I got back to my Airbnb that I was staying in and I like drank wine and like cried to my boyfriend at the time. And was just like, I hate everything. Um, and then I kind of got to thinking and I was like, even like me saying that now to you, I'm like, wow, that is so whiny. And like, unappreciative of the fact that like that day, you know, I was able to buy groceries. I was in Miami, like I got myself to Miami.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Uh, I, you know, was getting a haircut, like spa day for me, you know, I got professional photos taken like, you know, and it was sort of like, I had this realization that like, wow, I can take anything um, good and positive and maybe, or maybe even just like mediocre, right? Like a lot of things that happen in life are kind of like, oh, that was whatever. Um, you know, and I have a tendency to dwell on the negatives and to like emphasize the negatives and create these stories out of the negatives that were not serving me. Um, and it was making me like not enjoy my life, like to the extent that I, that it could have and should have been enjoyed. Um, and so that's kind of the long and the short of it, why I decided to change.

• 10:12Jemma Sbeg?

  That's actually really interesting. And can I be honest? Maybe I'm like, maybe I need to change my personality because I had a day like that, like literally yesterday.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 10:21Jemma Sbeg?

  I know, I literally even got my haircut and like, I didn't like my haircut. And like, my mom was literally in town yesterday as well. And that's like, honestly crazy. Um, so like you're, I'm like hearing that story and I'm like, no, like you, you just feel your emotions, girl.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  There's a time and a place to feel your emotions. But you can, you can feel your emotions and also like look at the bright side.

• 10:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I know. It's just really funny. And I think like what you're really pointing at is like, this wasn't like a one-off situation. Like you had seen this pattern of not being able to enjoy your life. And what I'm hearing is that you were like, okay, well, something needs to change in me. Why did you hone in on? Personality and like specific building blocks of personality rather than something else. Why didn't you like speak spiritual enlightenment? Why didn't you like say to yourself, oh, I need to change something about my lifestyle? Like, did you feel, yeah, what was like the focus on changing? What I'm guessing is like neuroticism, right? Like as a building block.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, so neuroticism was one of the things I wanted to change. So neuroticism is one of the five traits and it's just anxiety and depression, right? And I had a lot of that. I had a lot of anxiety and a lot of kind of negativity, as I mentioned. But there are other elements of personality and they sort of encompass those other things that you mentioned. So actually, as far as like improving my neuroticism, a big thing I actually looked to was Buddhism and a lot of Buddhist teachings. Because a lot of neuroticism, it's not about like reducing the number of things that happen to you that are bad. It's, I mean, although like if you're like addicted to drugs and like that's why bad things keep happening to you, like that's something to look to.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  But let's say you're like a, like a functional person who's, who's, you know, living like a basically normal life. It's gonna be a lot easier to change your reactions to the things that happen to you than it is to like make every single thing in the world go your way. So that's why I kind of like looked inward and, and, and personality does encompass a lot of those things that you mentioned. So like spirituality, Buddhism has a lot to say about depression and anxiety. And, you know, as far as like lifestyle, that was really more extroversion. Like I, I wanted to become more extroverted and that was a big part. Lifestyle was a big part of that is, is sort of, how often do you go out to socialize? And do you make an effort to do that?

• 12:52Speaker 02

  You know, not just like, do you sit, sit by the phone and wait for people to contact you? But do you make connections? Do you try to get out there? So those, those are things that I did. But I, I called it personality change because personality includes all that.

• 13:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm, okay, that makes, that makes a lot more sense. So in this like. Endeavor to change your personality. Did you figure out like who the happiest kinds of people were? Like, was there an assumption that like the happiest kinds of people are extroverted and are low in neuroticism and like high in openness to experiences? Like thinking about like the big five. What did you come across in your research?

• 13:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, so people are not going to be thrilled to hear this, but the happiest people are like high in all the traits except for neuroticism.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  So, so there's five traits. I will just briefly say what they are. It's so openness to experience. Happy people are high in that because that's like, yeah, spiritual, but not religious, like creative, imaginative, conscientiousness, which is like getting stuff done. So it's like being places on time and being like healthy and exercising. Happy people tend to be high in that. Extroversion, extroverts are happier. That's like a really consistent finding in psychology. Unfortunately, I was, I'm an introvert and I was not thrilled to hear that. Agreeableness, agreeable people are happier. They're always like making friends and going to baby showers and what have you.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  And then neuroticism is the one that's correlated with unhappiness. And so the opposite of it is emotional stability. That's what it's called and people who are high in that are happier.

• 14:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm, kind of rough. Not gonna lie.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:44Jemma Sbeg?

  If you're listening to this being like, oh, I'm an introvert and I'm like, and I have anxiety. I think like maybe caveat, like I'll put the caveat in. Um, like sometimes I think that it's like, are introverts less happy? Or the scales by which we measure happiness just obviously overly influenced by extroverts. Right? Because who's going to participate in those early studies that like created indicators of happiness? It's going to be the people who have a lot of friends. So we're going to invite them to participate and who are like, yeah, I'll do this. I'll go out, like I'll get paid to like sit in a room with a stranger for an hour. Like, so sometimes I think that. And I also do think that like, what we'll get to is even if you don't think you can change your personality, you can most certainly manage it.

• 15:28Jemma Sbeg?

  And you can manage like medications and you can manage lifestyle factors and routine and therapists.

• 15:36Jemma Sbeg?

  So don't see this as like a curse upon your name if you kind of associate with some of those other traits. Um, but this kind of leads me to my next question, like, at what age do you think our personality really starts to stick? Um, at what age do you think we really feel like stuck in who we are?

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I would say there's not an age at which we, we start to stick in who we are. So that used to be the thinking, um, this like influential psychologist named William James, um, had this infamous sort of quote that like, uh, the character is set like plaster by the age of 30. Um, and, uh, which is relevant for your podcast for people in their twenties. Um, so I mean, even he said, like, in your twenties, you can still change. But, um, but uh, kind of more recent research has found that that's not really true, that people kind of continue to change throughout their lives, even naturally, even if you don't really do anything to try to change, your personality is gonna kind of shift from decade to decade.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  You're gonna be a different person, you know, when you have kids and like a job than you were in college, um, than you were in high school, you know? Um, and that is like freeing and it's kind of scary, but it's also kind of nice that like, you're not gonna be like, if you're not crazy about something, um, you know, about yourself or about your life, you're not stuck with it forever.

• 16:59Jemma Sbeg?

  That is very, very freeing. And even like as we get, um, into like older age as well, something that I like, the statistic that I really like to talk about is how, um, by the time people reach like 60 and 70, symptoms of mental illness really decline. Um, which I don't, I don't know. I've always like, thought about that and been like, oh, that sounds great. Like

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Can't wait for that.

• 17:22Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, can't wait for that. Like, maybe I'll have 10 years of just like bliss. Um, but it is like a really beautiful thing that you mentioned this. I hear this a lot, like another myth about personality change slash personality stuckness is by the time you reach 25, like your frontal lobe is fully developed. And I think we kind of think like, okay, so like, that's it. Like, this is who I'm always going to be. What evidence did you find like on the contrary, before I like really dive into your personal experiment?

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so um, so there's two kind of um, branches of evidence to the contrary. Um, so first, uh, your frontal lobe being fully formed doesn't really mean anything about your personality, because we don't have like a lobe in our brain that is where the personality lives. Um, so like even if they study like, um, brain changes, or, or you know, like those like FMRI studies where it's like brains lighting up, um, those don't necessarily correlate perfectly with, uh, personality necessarily. Um, so, um, there's kind of two elements to this. The first is that, um, when researchers have followed people,

• 18:32Speaker 02

  um, you know, and given them personality tests over and over across the years, um, they do find that people change. Um, you know, they tend to change in certain, uh, uh, ways over time. Um, so like you mentioned that people become, um, kind of mentally healthier, um, in old age, neuroticism does go down naturally across your life. Um, so if you feel like you're very anxious and depressed, usually in older age, people become less so. Um, so that sort of just naturally happens. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to like take any Lexapro. That naturally happens for most people. The other

• 19:12Speaker 02

  element of this is that if you actually try to change, um, it can happen even faster. So, um, there's been studies that show that people who get therapy, for example, become less neurotic. Um, and in a short period of time, they become a lot less neurotic than you would expect them to, having just like naturally, you know, decline in neuroticism. Um, and the same with some of the studies that I cover with my, in my book, um, researchers who, who have given people these like challenges, you know, people will say, I'd really like to become more extroverted. I'd like to make more friends. And they're like, okay, every day for, uh, or whatever, every week for a month, uh, reach out to someone new and

• 19:56Speaker 02

  have coffee with them, uh, or have, you know, lunch with them or whatever. Um, and they do maybe like five to 10 challenges like that over a period of time. They actually find that they do grow in extroversion based on personality tests that they take at the beginning and the end. Um, so not only do you naturally change, you can also change through effort.

• 20:17Jemma Sbeg?

  So are things like introversion, like I always thought that they were very innate. Like it's a genetic, oh my, I don't know, like genetic predisposition, it's temperament. But you're saying that actually, no, it's more of a nurture factor. Well, it being like environment, sorry.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so it's both. So um, so genetics is responsible for about forty to sixty percent of our personality. Um, and even then it's not like direct, like if you think about either of your parents, you're probably not exactly like either of them, right? You're probably like, you have like elements of them, but you're not like their twin. Like you, you kind of, most people are, I mean, usually people are relieved to hear this, like not exactly like either, either, either parent, right? Um, so you get a little bit, like you get some ingredients. So I have like a natural uh proclivity toward anxiety because both my parents are very anxious, right? Um, but at the same time, there's other, there's like this, you know, forty to sixty other percent of personality

• 21:16Speaker 02

  that we don't really know where specifically it comes from. It's not necessarily like the way your parents raised you. Um, it's like, it's like kind of that, but it's also like your friends. It's like, did you go to college? What kind of job do you have? Um, you know, do you make an effort to like read self-help books? It's kind of like the stuff that you do and absorb into yourself that creates that other part of personality. So that's the kind of element that I'm talking about is that like, yeah, if you have two parents who are totally bookish and hate talking to people, um, you're gonna naturally be kind of like, I feel really introverted. Um, but if, but if you, you know, go into a job in sales and you talk to people, you know,

• 22:00Speaker 02

  all day and everyone around you is extroverted and you get like high fives and promotions for being extroverted. Like you're gonna be a little bit more extroverted than you naturally would be, if that makes sense.

• 22:11Jemma Sbeg?

  So it's kind of like, at some point reinforcement does kind of work, like.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 22:17Jemma Sbeg?

  Being rewarded. See, I find this really interesting because like, um, my parents are so totally opposite each other. Like they're the perfect definition of like opposites attract. Like my dad is like a stay at home dad and like, we call him like a charity wife. Like he runs like a non-for-profit, like giving bags to refugee children in Australia. And like then my mom is like a, like badass, like CEO. And like she has like, she is. Oh, but like she is the lowest person, like the lowest neurotic neuroticism levels I have ever seen in an individual. Like I have never seen that woman break a sweat. She is not anxious at all. Like, nothing phases her. And then my dad is like, the complete opposite. And it's like, completely like, he's not completely anxious, but he's

• 23:02Jemma Sbeg?

  very anxious and very existential and very like in his own head about very deep things. And it's really funny, like seeing it, like me and my sister's always joked that it was like, you know, one of us got my mom's jeans and my, me and my other sister got my dad's jeans. And it was like, damn, like if I could switch, like I totally, yeah.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. So there you see it. Yeah.

• 23:27Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. But then again, it's like me and my sister, like, not to like tell her story, but had that had very different approaches to like how we face neuroticism and like, um, and other things as well. And like agreeableness and all those things. And like, there definitely has been a difference in like how we've approached it and how we've changed as people. So I'm ranting. Really what I want to get to is what you found in yourself. But we're going to take a tiny break and we'll be back in just a second. Stay tuned.

• 24:00Jemma Sbeg?

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• 25:07Jemma Sbeg?

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• 25:49Jemma Sbeg?

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• 26:31Jemma Sbeg?

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• 26:44Jemma Sbeg?

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• 28:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's like the whole book. So let me just break it down into, let's talk about extroversion first, because I think that is like the easiest to wrap your head around and also has had the clearest results. So extroversion, basically the secret to increasing extroversion is to socialize with people. Some of the other traits are more existential and more like mindset oriented and kind of like how you think about things. Extroversion is like very clear cut, go talk to people, like go do activities. So I signed up for a bunch of stuff. I signed up for improv, sailing club, a bunch of meetup groups.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  So which is like groups of strangers meeting up, literally. I like threw a party at my house. I just went out all the time. I went from basically going out maybe once a week to going out like pretty much every night or like not, and not like going out drinking, like although there was a lot of drinking.

• 29:11Jemma Sbeg?

  I can imagine.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Like, like just being around people. And I found that like almost every time before I went, I dreaded it. I did not want to go. I was like, I hate improv. I don't even know why I'm doing this. This is stupid. I don't want to go. And then almost every time after I would do it, I felt better. I was like, that was super fun, or like, that person in the sailing, my sailboat today was really interesting. Or like, that was cool, or like, hey, like, I got to get whatever, a burger on the way back home. Like, there was something that came out of it usually that I was like, huh, that was like a nice break from the day. That was like a nice way to like, liven up the day a little bit.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  Um, and I think that's kind of like the, um, when I talk about increasing extroversion or like changing your introversion. You can remain an introvert, but just do like 20% more stuff, like connect with people 20% more. And there's a little bit of a mood boost there. Like, researchers who are introverts have studied this concept. And have found that like, even just connecting with people a little bit. And it doesn't mean that you have to be like the life of the party. Like, I think people assume extroversion means like, you're super talkative and like, can't shut up and, you know, or you're always telling jokes.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  You can like go hang out with two close friends and like, you know, listen more than you talk and like knit the whole time. And, uh, that's still extroversion. That's, you know, still being around people. Um, so, yeah, I, for, for that one, I, my introversion, my, my, my extroversion did go up. Um, and I think what I took away from that is that like, I do enjoy having fun. I need to sometimes force myself to have fun. But it's okay to do that. Like, it's okay to be like, commit, you know, kind of to an exercise class or to something else that doesn't sound super appealing all the time, but ends up being rewarding.

• 31:14Jemma Sbeg?

  This is what I always say, like, people, people will DM me, be like, how do I make new friends? Or like, how do I stop feeling like everything is an effort? And I'm like, pick two things to do a week and do them in the same place at the same time. And you will meet other people who are doing the same thing as you. Like, whether it is at an exercise class, or like an improv class, or a life drawing class, or like social sport. There are so many people out there who also want to make friends and who also are like seeking connection. And There's like no shame about it either of being like, okay, I'm trying to train my brain to like this more because you do fall into a habit. Like I'm such an extroverted person and last week I spent the entire day at my house and like the entire week like

• 31:56Jemma Sbeg?

  indoors working and I had such cabin fever. And I was like, I've just, I'm just so depressed. Like I just don't know who I am anymore. And then I went and did like barefoot bowls with my friends. And I was like, wow, like life is so beautiful. Like, look at those flowers. It's like, yeah, giving your brain what it needs. Um, so extroversion was the one that you saw an improvement in. What about neuroticism?

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. So neuroticism, I also saw an improvement. So neuroticism, I will cut to the chase. I meditated a whole lot. I, and meditation is also something that I did not enjoy. I didn't even enjoy it while I was doing it. And I did not enjoy it after I was done. I was not like, that was really nice. I was like, thank God I don't have to do that for another 24 hours. I signed up for a class where we had to meditate for 45 minutes every day, which is so long. Um, it's literally the longest 45 minutes of your life. Um, however, it did work. My neuroticism went down and my anxiety went down a little bit, but my depression went down a ton. Um, it went down a lot, like

• 33:03Speaker 02

  to basically like not being depressed anymore. Um, and why that happened is sort of anyone's guess. Um, if I had to like posit why that occurred, it's that, um, I did a lot of what's called loving kindness meditation, which is where you're just like really nice to yourself, um, for however long. And it's usually, I do it to like a guided, like a tape, basically. Um, people don't use tape anymore, like a, a recording, like a guided.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Um, like a guided recording. And it's like, you know, um, like, like there's like the line that always makes me cry is like there's, you can search the whole universe for someone who is more deserving of love and happiness than you are yourself and not find anyone. And it's like, like, yeah, you're just like, oh my God.

• 33:54Jemma Sbeg?

  You need to know what this tape is.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  Um, so it's, it's Sharon Salzberg. Um, and I use the 10% happier app for meditation.

• 34:04Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, I love that app.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:07Jemma Sbeg?

  I have a podcast just up from, um, the Yale. Is it from the Yale person?

• 34:14Speaker 02

  No, um, I think if you think of Judd Brewer, um, the, the 10% happier is Dan Harris.

• 34:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, yeah, Dan Harris. Yes, yes, yes. He does podcasts as well, I think.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, I mean, everyone. Yeah.

• 34:27Jemma Sbeg?

  Everyone has a podcast is so embarrassing.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  Um, but, uh, but he, yeah, but it, it actually like really worked. I think like there's something about like repeating that. I don't know. And my meditation teacher also really tried to like hammer home the self compassion. And, um, I think it, it worked. Yeah.

• 34:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Wow. See, I get this like meditation. And I, I've never met someone who's been like, I'm really into it all the time. Like, I do feel like you kind of have to drag yourself into it, kicking and screaming.

• 34:59Jemma Sbeg?

  It's like when you have to like get a needle and you're like, I really don't want to do this. Or like go to the dentist or like go to the doctor and then you feel amazing. Like, oh, wow, that pain's gone. Like, that's what meditation sounds like. And it's just like discipline towards your soul, right? In the same way that you exercise your body, like you're exercising your mind, even if it's like tense and uncomfortable and stressful or whatever in the moment, like it feels, gives you strength later on.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  I think it, what it did is made me less afraid of my negative emotions. Um, so you're sitting there like sometimes for hours and you're just like, your mind is like going and going in its silence, you know? And I think what it does is like, for me at least, I don't know if this is like correct, but, um, for me at least, it made me like inevitably like negative feelings will come up during that. But it was sort of just like, it's okay. Like nothing bad is really happening right now. You're literally sitting in a room in your house on a cushion. Like, um, meditating, but you, you kind of have, you still have your same negative, you know, strong emotions. If you're someone who's prone to neuroticism, but it, I don't know, it just lets you like, um.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Kind of not be as thrown off by them or like, because bad things are still, I mean, my meditation teacher would say this all the time, like, things happen that you don't like. Um, which is like, very simple, but is like, oh yeah. And like, you're just, you're gonna have to deal with that for the rest of your life. And it's all about, you know, do you, you know, your mom, you mentioned is like, so not neurotic. I'm sure bad things happened to her.

• 36:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  But she thinks about them in a, like, somehow more zen way than the average person. I'd love to know her secret.

• 36:43Jemma Sbeg?

  I would love to as well. It's crazy. And she's had a tough life, like, not to give her story. And I have done an episode with her where she talks about it, but not even the full extent, like, n- not an easy life. And sometimes I just look at her and I can see, like, there'll be a time that like me or my, my sister will like be panicking about something or being like, don't you just see like how terrible this is? And I, I can literally just see her looking at me being like, no, like trying really hard to have empathy for me and being like, I just can't do it. Like, she, she's incredible. And like, I, she has obviously like learnt what to say, but she doesn't like feel it in her bones, the way that like my dad would

• 37:27Jemma Sbeg?

  or my sister would. So she honestly needs to do like some kind of life course. Like, she's pretty incredible. Okay. I want to ask this question, but I think everyone is probably thinking at this point, you did all these amazing exercises. How long did this last as well? Like, six months?

• 37:43Speaker 02

  This lasted a, a year.

• 37:45Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, a year. And when did that experiment end?

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Um, I honestly only had a year of book leave, so it was just like June of, uh, twenty twenty-two to June of twenty twenty-three.

• 37:57Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, cool. Um, so like a year, a solid year. Have you found that you've gone back to your old self since?

• 38:06Speaker 02

  So in some ways, but not in others, um, since I did that, I had a baby. And that necessarily like changes a lot about how you're thinking about things.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Especially in the beginning, but I would say that there is still a lot of things that I carried through into even my life as a, I guess I'm still a new parent technically. So one example is like just reaching out to other moms. So it's a very stressful time when you first have a baby, like it just is, there's no getting around it. You don't know what you're doing and they're very tiny and they cannot speak to you.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  So you're just like, ah, what do you want? So I kind of made a point of reaching out to other moms and like I'm in a mom's group that's been really supportive. I also just like really, really try to, even in day to day life, if I meet another mom with kids the same age, I really try to like reach out and at least see if she's open to the possibility of friendship. And sometimes that means that I, and this is not something I would have done previously. I actually do a lot of reaching out repeatedly. So like if someone, let's say I reach out to someone and they're like, yeah, let's have coffee and we have coffee and we both have a good time. I, and then some time elapses and no one follows up.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  I might reach out again, even though it was me the last time too. And then I might do that like a third time. Like there are some relationships where I'm just always the person who organizes things. And that used to really bother me. Like I was like, that person doesn't want to be friends. Like I'm going to move on because they're not putting in equal effort into organizing things. And like, I don't, I don't want that. But I kind of just realized through this that like, everyone has stuff going on and like, people just don't think about things the same way. They are maybe swamped in other ways. They're maybe like not as comfortable with reaching out. Like, I don't know, it just made me like a lot less.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Sensitive, I guess, about these like rules of social interaction that I had previously thought were like iron like laws, you know? So that's been one thing that I've noticed. Like yesterday, we went on a playdate to this woman who I like barely knew just because I was like, I'm really bored and if I have to like sing Baby Beluga one more time.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  So it was like, let's go over to Yuchen's house. And yeah, that's what we did and it was great, you know? So I don't know.

• 40:44Jemma Sbeg?

  I think it's like a really interesting like how you can.

• 40:49Jemma Sbeg?

  It's quite personal, but like whether you would have been a different kind of mother if you hadn't done this experiment like the year before you had a baby.

• 40:57Jemma Sbeg?

  And like, maybe the answer is no, but maybe it's like, wow, like in this weird way, like maybe you were preparing your personality for like literally the biggest challenge on planet Earth. Like I heard this quotes, like when you become a parent, you have to use every single skill that you've ever put on a resume, like and the ones that you haven't. So it'd be interesting to see that. Not that you wouldn't have been a very competent, capable mother if you hadn't have done this, but it's, yeah, it's fascinating. Like I would have loved to see a control group.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  I know. I'm not very competent or capable as it is, but I will say that I think that doing this experiment helped me decide to have a baby.

• 41:37Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, cool. Interesting.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  Like it helped me get more comfortable with the idea of having a baby. Yeah.

• 41:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Because babies, listen, I don't have one, but they seem like a lot of work.

• 41:49Jemma Sbeg?

  And they seem like they will put you in like a state, like they will bring up all those challenges. So, you know, the other day, this is like so funny, but I didn't realize you can't give babies water.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Not until six months.

• 42:03Jemma Sbeg?

  See? Guys, I don't know if any of you did know that, listeners of the podcast, but I was like, wow, if I had a kid right now and no one had told me that, like, that would have been a real problem. Like, what are the other things that I don't know about this, like, grand mystery?

• 42:16Speaker 02

  You end up Googling. Don't worry about that stuff. Don't worry about it right now. It's honestly, you will be Googling, you will Google, the internet has answers. You Google everything. No one knows any of this stuff before they start.

• 42:28Jemma Sbeg?

  There we go, guys. And I think it will be a long time. But I've got one final question for you, and I ask every single guest on the podcast the same question. What advice would you have for listeners in their twenties? What's one thing that you wish you'd known earlier? And it doesn't have to be about what we talked about today.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  I would say that my advice for people in their twenties

• 42:54Speaker 02

  is that it's okay to just pursue what you want. You don't have to do something that seems practical or like what other people want you to do, or just because you've always been doing it. You can, it's a time of life when you can completely pick the thing that is your biggest goal, the thing you most want in the world, and just go at it with full force. That's what I would recommend doing.

• 43:24Jemma Sbeg?

  I also love that. I love that piece of advice. I would give that advice myself.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Oh, good.

• 43:29Jemma Sbeg?

  Which is brilliant, which is so brilliant. I want to thank you for coming on the podcast. Where can the listeners find you? Actually, I want to give a shout out to an article that you wrote that I think is really, would be really amazing. It's called "The Joy of Underperforming." I think you wrote it like a couple of years ago, maybe.

• 43:47Jemma Sbeg?

  But if you guys are looking for further listening, for further reading, I'm sorry. All grown men are not even like, you give your own recommendations. I will in a second. But I remember reading that article that you wrote and being like, wow, this is incredible for people in their twenties.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks.

• 44:01Jemma Sbeg?

  It's great. But where else can they find you?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, so our website is theatlantic.com. And I'm a writer there. You can find me and all my brilliant colleagues there. And you can find my book, which is called "Me But Better," wherever books are sold.

• 44:17Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm very excited for it to come out, comes out today. If you're listening to this the day that it launch, this is released, you can literally go and preorder a copy. And I know we had quite a few spoilers, but having already read a few chapters slash pages of this book, like there is so much more there and so much more science and research and just like fascinating tidbits. So, thank you so much Olga for coming on the show. And as always, if there is someone that you know who would like to listen to this episode, who you think would be interested in this topic, feel free to send them a link. Make sure that you are following along. If you want to rate us five stars, that would be very much appreciated. Until next time, thank you for listening and stay kind, be safe, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very, very soon.

• 45:05Jemma Sbeg?

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• 45:50Jemma Sbeg?

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• 46:19Jemma Sbeg?

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• 47:02Jemma Sbeg?

  that have made me more intentional and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 47:23Speaker 00

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