Macklemore ON: How to Stop Letting the Past Define You & Ways to Discover your Greatest Strengths in Hard Times

Today, I sit down with the one and only Macklemore to talk about recovery, healing, and choosing to live a better life. We start with being self-aware and how this is helpful in cleansing yourself to recovery, the endless battle with self-hate and how to put your focus on self love instead, how success can also mean finding the willpower to change yourself and become someone better. We end the conversation by talking about authenticity and setting new goals for a better life. Macklemore is a multi-Platinum and Grammy award-winning artist, who's made history with a combination of commercial success, critical acclaim, and international appeal with a total of 12.8 billion combined streams to date. He is one of the most successful independent artists of the 21st century and he's consistently used his art and platform to raise awareness around issues of addiction and recovery. You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon. What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:32 Why is it important to cut out the noise when there is a constant narrative of who you should be? 04:50 Despite the success, it’s easy to fall into the trap of addiction while being plagued with fear. 09:13 Addiction is like an allergy and this is the reason why. 11:50 It came down to choosing between life and death, and a choice had to be made. 16:43 Service is a pillar in the recovery community. 22:30 The darkness is always there and it can creep at you anytime. 28:28 When you mistake the numbness you feel as peace and then find a more sustainable way to experience inner peace. 31:46 Macklemore shares what it felt during his near death experiences. 34:45 Sometimes a supportive partner is all you need to pull yourself out of the rut. 44:38 Rediscover who you are as a person and the different ways to accomplish this. 50:09 How do we ‘normally’ size people up or gauge success? 51:16 Think Out Loud - how Jay started how mission to make wisdom go viral 57:17 Macklemore answers the question, “How would you define success now?” 01:03:07 Authentic art cannot be manufactured because you can’t fake authenticity. 01:12:25 Setting goals to help change yourself and lead a better path in life. 01:17:58 Ben on Final Five Episode Resources Macklemore | Website Macklemore | Instagram Macklemore | YouTube Macklemore | Twitter Macklemore | Facebook Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to-do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet,

• 0:44Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and is clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe.

• 1:28Jay Shetty?

  Listing items is a quick and simple process and once something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part? There are no seller fees, so you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful, and maybe make some extra money along the way. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees, so you keep every dollar you earn. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. One of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is the chance to step outside of our routine. Travel is a way of slowing us down and shifting our perspective.

• 2:09Jay Shetty?

  And with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, every journey becomes even more rewarding. Earn four times the points on flights and hotels booked direct. Enjoy access to award-winning airport lounges, three times the points on dining and reserve-exclusive tables. Learn more at chase.com/sapphirereserve. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, N A member FDIC. Subject to credit approval, terms apply.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  I believe that what's supposed to be will be. And when I can get in that place of acceptance, that regardless of what happens with Maniac or the next single or my album and how many first week sales it does and YouTube numbers, all of that is not happiness. It is completely.

• 2:59Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thank you so much for coming back every week to become happier, healthier and more healed, something that I'm always working on for myself. And I am so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love, is out and I cannot wait to share it with you. I am so, so excited for you to read this book, for you to listen to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to eightrulesoflove.com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep or let go of love. So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book.

• 3:44Jay Shetty?

  And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour, Love Rules. Go to jayshettytour.com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences and more. I can't wait to see you this year. And one of the things I love about this community that we've built here is I love talking to people who are using their platforms for. A greater purpose, who find artistic and creative ways to talk about the things we care about here, whether that's mental health, personal growth, addiction, personal challenges that we go through internally and externally. And today's guest is someone who has used their platform through and through to talk about really important, interesting, fascinating topics.

• 4:27Jay Shetty?

  I'm talking about multi-platinum and Grammy award-winning artist, Macklemore, who's made history with a combination of commercial success, critical acclaim, and international appeal with a total of 12.8 billion combined streams to date. And Macklemore is one of the most successful independent artists of the 21st century. And he's consistently used his art and platform to raise awareness around issues of addiction and recovery. And now the two new singles are out, Chant and Maniac. Make sure you go and stream and listen. Macklemore, Ben, you could tell me how you want me to go.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Ben is great.

• 5:02Jay Shetty?

  Ben, Ben, thank you so much for making the trip to be here. Thank you so much for this opportunity.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me, man. This is fantastic.

• 5:10Jay Shetty?

  Amazing.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  What an intro. One take.

• 5:13Jay Shetty?

  Oh, yeah. Well, we had to cut it down. I mean, there was so many achievements. I was like, I need to get back. You know, everyone knows who you are. I grew up listening to your music when I was back in London. And so for me to be sitting with you today is awesome. And you'll see that for a few of the questions I'll ask. But I wanted to pick out, I love, there's a lyric here that I wanted to share with you. It's obviously one of yours. And I wanted to start with this. Your new song, Chant, says, "They told me that I vanished. They told me that I had it. They told me that I'm gone. I told them, don't panic."

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:46Jay Shetty?

  And when I was listening to that, there's a lot of what they're thinking about where you are.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:53Jay Shetty?

  And my question was, where do you feel you are today?

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Let's just get into it. Okay.

• 5:59Jay Shetty?

  You said you like to get into it.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. That's what we're here for. You know, I think there is a constant narrative when you're in the public eye. There's a constant narrative about who you are. And that ranges between people that love you, people that hate you, people that, you know, have maybe heard a song or two. And what I like to get back to is cutting out the noise of any sort of outside influence in terms of who I am as a person. That when you put yourself out there, when you put out art in any capacity, can I do it in a way where regardless of its success, or lack thereof, or critical acclaim, or nothing at all,

• 6:46Speaker 01

  I know who I am. And I think that that is the most important part about being an artist, because it's very easy to start looking. And I was actually, I was, I was listening to something that you said, and you can correct me because I will be wrong, but about seeing yourself through how you think other people see you, and how, how false that is. And we get this very precious, like this finite amount of time on this earth, and we waste it wondering what other people think of us, and also inheriting how we, how we believe that they might be seeing. And it's a waste of time. And I got to a point years ago,

• 7:31Speaker 01

  and granted, this is a daily process to like completely shed this. So I have by no means arrived. But I stopped reading what people were writing. I stopped reading reviews. And I make art because I love it. And when you do that, and you come from a pure, genuine place, that is where happiness lies and fulfillment lies in the creative process. So that's what I'm getting to with those lyrics to chant, is just getting back to the core of who I am as a person, as an, as an artist regardless of the outside.

• 8:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I love that. And I love what you're saying about how it's a daily practice. It's something we have to recommit to, that ritual of getting back there and blocking out the noise. I wonder, when was the first time you felt you lost that? Did you feel you had that? And then you started to lose that at a certain point? Or was it something that you've always been able to like grasp onto even when it's been tough?

• 8:26Speaker 01

  I think that at the height of our success. And I look back to coming off of, um, you know, number one, Thrift Shop was number one, Can't Hold Us was number one. All of a sudden, this music that you feel like is yours becomes the world and it becomes open, you know, to public interpretation. And I think I lost it then. I think that, um, there was a point where it wasn't just a relapse anymore. I went back into active addiction around that time period. I didn't know how to maneuver this success. I had been an underground rapper forever. And as long as like that, like, you know, my entire career was just like this.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  And then all of a sudden, there was this skyrocket moment. And when that skyrocket moment happened, and you're at the mercy of the critics and the think pieces and like the people that are out there just to write scathing reviews or whatever, I lost it. And when, and I compounded that by then turning to, to drugs to escape it, right? Like, there's no escaping that. There's figuring out healthy ways to, to cope or even better to heal or to just, you know, tune it out. But I tried to put drugs on top of that to escape, which made it that much worse. And for me, um, you know, with my history of addiction, it is a progressive disease.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  So I'm, I'm putting drugs on top of it and I turned to a place of fear. And I think that that fear really was a paralyzing force in that time period where I was scared. I didn't know how to deal with the outside world. Yeah, so around that time, kind of, and, and it's crazy because it happened at the height of the success, right? So I had on one side, all these, you know, awards and acclaim and millions of people and millions of dollars and all this money and, and all these things that in. In society's eyes, that's what you're working towards. And on the other side, I had completely lost track of who I was

• 10:35Speaker 01

  and the things that actually really mattered.

• 10:38Jay Shetty?

  And when, when did drugs first come into your life? Like, when was your first connection with that? Because you talk about your history of addiction.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:46Jay Shetty?

  But I'm intrigued by that. I, I feel like we always talk, and I do want to talk about recovery, but I feel like it's really interesting watching like when we as young people or as adults get involved with anything of the sort to then go back the other way. So when was your first kind of foray into that space?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  The first time that I ever drank alcohol, and I consider alcohol a drug. I was 14 years old and my parents drank. And I had a liquor cabinet in my house above the fridge. And I went into that liquor cabinet and I took one shot of vodka. I was 14 years old and I had on my undershirt. I had Tupac in the background. I poured one shot, I took the shot and, uh, and I was like, oh, my God, I love the way that I feel right now. Like, I finally am turning this off. I took two more. I wonder what three feels like. Another one, wonder what four. I ended up, I probably weighed 130 pounds and I took 12 shots of vodka

• 11:45Speaker 01

  in maybe a 30 minute time period. And, um, you know, ended up stumbling. I got on the bus to go downtown Seattle. I ended up throwing up all over myself in a McDonald's. The cops came, I had to run from the cops. That was the beginning of my drinking career, which turned out to be a very painful one, um, in the moment and in hindsight. And, yeah, you know, drugs came along with that. Marijuana and, you know, some pills and a bunch of other things. But, you know, that was the beginning of, um, a very unhealthy relationship from the very jump.

• 12:24Jay Shetty?

  And for different people, it's different things. Like, for some people, it's confidence. For some people, it's, it sounds like numbing the noise. Like, switching this off, you said, was, was that the goal? Was that the intention? Like, where, where was that coming from? And where did it escalate to? Like, what was the, the reasoning behind it for you?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  The easiest way for me to describe it is that it was like an allergy. It was. Once I had a sip, or a hit, or a sniff, or whatever it was, I wanted more. And I couldn't turn that off. And I never could. It was like, from the very first time, I didn't take two shots and say, you know what? I don't want to get busted by my parents, like, I'm done. This was like, I took one and went to 12 in a really short period of time. And the longer that I've been in recovery and examining my own life, and maybe what led me to that point, because, I mean, maybe, you know, I don't know what the science is in terms of genetics are being predisposed.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  I had some things that happened at an early age that I think I wanted to turn off. And it wasn't until relatively recently that I've kind of examined those and seen other men in the recovery community open up about sexual trauma from an early age, and be open and willing to talk about things that happened to them. Things that, like, definitely, growing up, I never heard about. And up until relatively recently, finding a community of men in recovery, I never heard people talk about openly in meetings. So I'm like, maybe that was the reason why. I don't know exactly.

• 14:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's fair. I mean, I think it's always a collection of things, rather than it being one thing. But when you're talking about recovery now, and, you know, congratulations on just, you know, an incredible journey to recovery. When, when it was at its lowest point, which sounds like it was when you were at your highest point externally, you're at your lowest point internally. And it's, it's actually not as surprising, like, that happens so often.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:35Jay Shetty?

  Like, you hear that so often, that people had their best moments externally and their worst moments internally. What was it that did give you reassurance or redirection to say, I want to find a way out? Because I can imagine that's so dark, and anyone who's listening and watching, maybe they have a family member who's in that position, or maybe they have a loved one, or maybe they're in that position themselves, and they're listening to us right now. And they're like, but it is so dark, it is so hard, it is such a strong addiction, that it always looks easy on the other side, from the outside, but the person who's been through it knows what it's taken.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:12Jay Shetty?

  What was it at that low point, that dark point, that you said, no, I, I see another side to this?

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Life and death. What do I choose? It came down to that. And I knew the truth. I had been lucky enough that I had already been to rehab. I had already understood that this is the disease of addiction. This is an uncurable disease. This is something that I don't graduate from. This is something that I don't go into remission. Like, this will be with me forever. And as a daily reprieve and a daily practice, what am I doing for my recovery? I went back to the origin, the roots of what wrote the music that ended up being the heist that ended up getting all the awards and all the love and all of that.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  I went back to that place of, okay. Where were you when you felt fulfilled? And what did you have? And I had a home group where I went and I had a service position. And I made coffee for a bunch of other alcoholics and addicts. And on Tuesdays, in order for the meeting to happen, I needed to show up an hour early and put out the chairs in the meeting and I needed to make the coffee. And the coffee was trash. It was horrible, but I needed to do it. And I had that accountability. I had that sense of community. I didn't feel alone. I felt something that I think all human beings want, which is to feel a part of.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  And the disease of addiction leads you to isolation, at least for a lot of us. You know, right before I went to treatment, I would, you know, the only person I would pick up the phone for a call was the drug dealer. The blinds were drawn. I was in a super dark place. Now, granted, after the height of everything, I couldn't hide. I couldn't hide from the world. I had a full calendar. I just wore sunglasses inside and kept going.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  But I remember my wife and I, and it was after the Grammys. And my wife and I, we went to India. And, you know, I was actually detoxing from drugs during the Grammys. Like, I was like, you know, maybe three or four days off of opiates and definitely was not out of my system whatsoever. So that place of fear was very still there. And I never talked about this before. And I remember winning the four Grammys. And at the after-party.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Got a pill from somebody again at the after party. And that was the beginning of another attempt to escape everything that was happening. My wife and I went to India and I and I really detoxed and realized that I needed to find my community again, that all of this other external pats on the back, all these strangers, all these people that are are with you for the for the moment, but they don't really know me. I need to find the people that really know me, that really love me and the people that share this commonality of the disease of addiction, because those are the people that speak my same language, that make me feel again a part of and not distant and disconnected.

• 18:32Jay Shetty?

  And why India? What specifically about India? I'm fascinated.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  It's my favorite place on earth. There's something about this spiritual undertone. This ain't really undertone. You can just feel it energetically moving throughout India. You know, we were we were traveling around from from Varanasi to Dharamsala to, you know, Delhi to all over. And no one knew who I was. No one cared. I was back to just being Ben. And there was something so simple about that in that moment. And I think that you you travel throughout India and you see extreme, extreme poverty

• 19:16Speaker 01

  in people that are still happy and fulfilled in that. And you realize that to actually be fulfilled and happy in this world, all what we have been taught in the Western world, that we need these benchmarks in terms of success and square footage of a house and what type of car, all of these things do not lead to happiness. And I was reminded of all of that. And I just I just love this. I just love India.

• 19:42Jay Shetty?

  That's amazing. Was that your first time there?

• 19:44Speaker 01

  No, I'd been there before, yeah.

• 19:46Jay Shetty?

  Oh, wow. That's incredible. Obviously, I've I've spent so much time in India and that's been such a I I feel the same way as you do about it in the sense of it's it's spiritual energy that's just emanating.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:59Jay Shetty?

  Constantly.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:00Jay Shetty?

  And I I find it's even easier to develop spiritual practices there and habits there and and things like that. What have become some of the? Habits or practices or rituals that you feel you've formed that have aided this process of recovery. Community seems to be a big one of them. You keep referring to being around those people, reconnecting with who you were before. What are some other things that you've really worked on that you think have been pillars of supporting you at this time?

• 20:28Speaker 01

  I think service is a massive pillar in terms of getting outside of self. You know, it talks about in some of the literature that I work from, the disease of addiction is rooted in self-centeredness. And in order to get outside of self, the quickest way to do that is to think about other people. It's like the thing that's under all of our noses, it's right there in plain sight, and yet we keep going on this journey of like, what do I want right now? How can I serve myself? What are my needs? What are my immediate family's needs? But to really actually, you know, to find like connection with other people, it is to serve. And that's something in the recovery community that is one of the, you

• 21:12Speaker 01

  know, pillars. That's a massive part of it. And it's looking inward, it's doing the step work, it is figuring out my character defects, really stripping down, figuring out who I am, and how can I improve? And there's so much work to be done, you know what I mean? And I'm at a very, I've been in and out of the rooms of recovery for 14 years now. And I relapsed at the beginning of COVID, so I have a couple of years. But I still feel like a newcomer. I still feel like this is brand new. And I'm just on the precipice of figuring out something that's gonna open a new door.

• 21:53Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Service is such an underestimated habit and ritual. And hearing you speak about it in that way is... So life giving because I think it's one of those things, as you said, we've just completely taken out of society. It doesn't really exist in our vocabulary. It doesn't really exist in our recommendation to people or as an antidote to anything. But as you're saying, in the recovery community, it seems to be a big pillar and a big part of that. Do you remember an opportunity where you got to serve or something where you tried to do something like that, where you felt the benefits that you just described? Was there a particular example?

• 22:33Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know if there's a particular one that sticks out, but I think even to piggyback off what you were just saying in terms of society, even with this culture of like, okay, now we are working on our mental health. Now I'm in therapy. Now I'm, you know, eating healthy. Now I'm working out. Now I'm doing Bikram yoga, like whatever, like all of those things are fantastic, right? Like, those are all great things of the self-care model that we have now. But they can still, without the balance of service, you're still thinking about me, me, me, me, me, right? Like, what do I need right now? How can I get my light? You know, I need to talk about my trauma and all of that. And that's, again, fantastic.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  It's still easy to be thinking about self in all of those practices. And can you actually have all of that in that still balance? Am I thinking and showing up for other people? And that can be as simple as, you know, picking up a phone call that you feel like you're too busy to take. That can be as easy as listening to a story of someone when you feel like, you know, you're running and gunning and you're trying to keep up with everything in life and just slowing down and showing up for others when you don't want to. That's the thing is like, because services. In a way, there's still a selfish component of service because you are still,

• 24:03Speaker 01

  you know, this feels good. There's something that feels good about it, but you're actually, you know, benefiting others at the same time.

• 24:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and it's so counterintuitive, right? Like, we constantly feel like we have to focus on ourselves to solve things. But the studies actually back up what you're saying as well. There's so many studies on depression that show that even people who are depressed, who support other people who are going through depression are happier than those who are not supporting that community. And so it's even about supporting that same community makes such a huge difference. And I know that for sure in my own life that that was the insight that saved me too, was because for me, the change happened that I worked harder on myself in order to serve people better. So what you're saying by the balance, it was like, the more I tried to serve others, the more I realized that I needed to be purified and cleansed.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  That's real.

• 24:56Jay Shetty?

  And so then I worked on my purification and cleansing so that I could

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:00Jay Shetty?

  try and give back better. And again, this is a daily process. I haven't arrived either. But that cycle became a really beautiful cycle where it's like, let me work on myself so I can give my best to others.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:10Jay Shetty?

  Now that I've given my best, I need to refuel. And then that becomes this beautiful journey that you go on as a human. And I feel like, for me, I'm there today too, where I'm trying to pour out into people and then I'm trying to pour in so that I have more purity to pour out.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  That's a really good observation. And I think that, yeah, it is a cycle. It's a constant, you know, evolution of like, oh, my God, I've been giving so much. Like, now I need to refill the tank. You know, the spiritual tank or whatever it is. That that does get depleted and that there is this balance that needs to be found. It's much easier said than done.

• 25:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, of course. Absolutely. How have your lyrics and music changed at that time? Because I feel like, you know, a lot of musicians feel they often write their best stuff in the worst times and the darkest times because it's raw. It's real. Like, you can connect to people's emotions and people also feel that way so they can see themselves in your music.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:11Jay Shetty?

  How have you felt as you observe your music evolving and with the two new singles, like? Has that, has that impacted the music? Or do you feel you're writing from a place of always working on yourself? And that's what connects with people?

• 26:25Speaker 01

  I think that I'm always working on myself. You know, I was, you know, just in the coffee shop an hour, hour and a half ago. And I get the coffee and I go to the bathroom and I'm like, you know, I just felt this wave of depression. And I'm like, huh, like where, where is that coming from? I didn't find an answer. The darkness is always there. I don't have clinical depression by any means. I'm, you know, someone that I would like to think is like relatively happy, but I do go through lows. I'm a human. I'm going through this, this spiritual experience and this human form. But I, I felt this wave and I was like, I wonder if, if Jay ever feels this wave of depression, which I do want to hear if you do.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  But like, but I also had this, this thought of like, you know, this is what creates art, right? If we were always just like this, or if it was just kept going up and it just got better and better until we died and then we're out here. It wouldn't be interesting. Like I need to feel those, you know, moments of elation and translate that to music. I need to feel those moments of, of darkness. You know, sometimes it's self inflicted. Sometimes it's just that way that I, you don't know where it's coming from. But it's like this blanket of darkness over you. And you're like, man, I gotta fight through this right now. But it all makes great music. It all makes great art if you channel it. But do you feel that?

• 27:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I, I think, I, I want to answer your question. There's some things I can relate to. When I was in my teens and I first started hearing about depression, in that time, it wasn't the norm to talk about those things. Like today, as you said, we're, we're trying to talk more about these things. But when I was in my teens and I first heard someone was depressed, in my head, I was like, how can you be depressed? You have everything. Like that was, I was one of those people who looked at a friend who seemed like they had it all together and couldn't fathom or understand how they could be depressed.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:20Jay Shetty?

  It was like, you make good money or, you know, you, you, you have a good situation. You know, you're a good looking dude. Like what's, what's, what's, you get women like.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:29Jay Shetty?

  I had that very basic view as a teenager. And then I felt it for the first time when I left the monastery. So I lived as a monk for three years, majority of it in India. And when I left, that's the first time I felt depressed. And I was around twenty five, going on twenty six. And that was the first time it hit me in my entire life. And that was because I had a plan and I had a direction I was going in and it didn't work out.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:57Jay Shetty?

  And all of a sudden, I had, I wouldn't even say a wave. I would say a very strong sense of depression. And I didn't even let myself admit it to myself at the time because I was so scared about what would happen if I admitted it. And so if you asked me during that time, I would have said, I'm fine. And it was only years later that I was able to locate and say, actually, I was depressed during that time. I just was scared to even say it out loud because I didn't know who to say it to. And it was then where my monk skills and tools that I'd learned actually came to help me and give me that direction. Now, today, that was, that was nearly ten years ago since I left. So it's been a long time.

• 29:37Jay Shetty?

  And I'd say today that I get sad thoughts, I get depressive thoughts. But it's two things. One is they don't last as long anymore because I've found a process and tools of what to do with them. And the second thing is I see them as useful.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:54Jay Shetty?

  As you said, as insight into what can be changed, transformed, grown, what work needs to happen.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:00Jay Shetty?

  So now they're not things I try and avoid or things I'm saying are bad or labeling them as negative. I accept that as a human, you will always have thoughts, but it's your choice what you want to do with them. And I've now learned skills and tools that allow me to process them differently than I would have ten years ago.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:19Jay Shetty?

  And so it's not that you will never, I don't think there's anyone in the world who could never have a negative thought or a tough thought or a difficult thought. Because the world is put in such a way that there's constantly conflict, there's constantly uncertainty.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:36Jay Shetty?

  So unless you're numb from it all, there's gonna be something that gets beneath your skin or something that gets into you. But it's what you do with that. It's kind of like saying wishing for a day where it stops raining and stops being cold. It's like, that's never gonna happen. The weather's gonna be the weather. It's gonna rain, it's gonna get cold, it's gonna snow. And you either have your umbrella and your snow boots ready to go, or you're gonna be cold and wet. And so I think for me, it's like, I'm focusing on what's my umbrella? What's my snow boots? What's my raincoat? You know, what are those tools and habits and practices that help me through that? Does that make sense? A hundred percent. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I'd be lying if I said I don't have sad thoughts or...

• 31:19Jay Shetty?

  And I think we have to get out of that because I think we all deep down believe that we will one day get to a place where you don't feel that way. And that kind of, I feel, stops us from getting there. I don't know if you've ever sensed that. Yeah. We kind of think about getting over something. We both talked a lot about getting through stuff. Yes. And with it, but I feel like in society, we have this idea of you're an addict and now you've recovered. Right. And you said, I'm in recovery. And that's, I'm guessing that's language that lasts. Yes, completely.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing in wearable. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, can tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. The features described are for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. iPhone 11 or later required. Based on Apple conducted study of heart rate accuracy, August 2026. Visit apple.com slash Apple Watch Series 12.

• 32:21Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in. Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with Wi-Fi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favorite podcast. Choose a seller or Northeast Regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit amtrak.com to plan your next trip. This episode is brought to you by Orange Theory Fitness. One of the best investments you can make is in your own strength. The choices you make today can help shape how you feel for years to come. Orange Theory Fitness provides a one-hour workout to build strength, burn fat,

• 33:06Jay Shetty?

  and build muscle with an expert coach guiding you every step of the way. Head to orangetheory.com/onpurpose to learn more and get your first class free. Orange Theory Fitness, helping people live longer, more vibrant lives. Terms and conditions apply. See webpage in studio for details.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  It's interesting you said that because the first time that I went to India, I was nineteen years old and I did a three-day silent meditation. And on the third day, I remember like I couldn't meditate. I never had really meditated. I'm trying to calm the mind, follow the breath. I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm like, this is never going to work for me. On the third day, I was like up in the hills. I was looking out over, you know, a mountainous terrain. And, you know, I'm watching the trees and I'm closing my eyes and the trees are still. And, you know, I'm seeing it through my eyelids and the breeze came through.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  And I had this moment of meditation where I didn't have any thoughts. You know, or whatever version that was, I thought that I was having this experience. And, um, and I felt this wave of just like this warm peace, this sustained, whether it was three or 10 seconds or whatever. And, um, it was this contentment that I don't know that I had ever really felt. And it was interrupted with the thought of, but you're going to lose this. But you're going to go back. And I think that there was a, that part of that was like, but you're gonna go back to drugs,

• 34:46Speaker 01

  but you're gonna go back to depression, but you'll never be able to sustain this. And part of, I think, what the compulsion around using for me is, is like, you know, you get that moment of, ah, you know, like I've turned off the thoughts or like, you know, the, the drink hits or the drug hits and now I'm, you know, a quantumist in my, in my, you know, being and, you know, I feel I'm high. I, I like the effects of this drug and, um, and then you go down and then you're trying to find that high again. When really, for me, what I have experienced is the most sustained period of happiness that can be achieved is through a practice of clearing the mind.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Now, do I meditate presently? Not at all. Not at all. As I'm saying all this, I'm like, bro, why, why aren't you meditating, man? You gotta get back.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  But yeah, I just, you know, I, I remember that feeling of peace and, and immediately being like, but you're not gonna be able to hold on to this. It's a lack of a practice.

• 35:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And, and that's that challenge, right? It's like constantly wanting to hold on to anything.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:55Jay Shetty?

  And constantly wanna go back to anything. Both of those thoughts, I think, is what I'm referring to and it seems like we're aligned. It's that,

• 36:03Jay Shetty?

  yeah, I feel like those are the two thoughts that actually keep us the most trapped.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 36:08Jay Shetty?

  It's like, I wanna hold on to this and I wanna go back to that.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:11Jay Shetty?

  And those two things keep you trapped for, forever and ever and ever because now you can't experience and you can't accept and you can't be.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:20Jay Shetty?

  And, and it takes you everywhere and, you know, towards more the beginning, you were talking about, you're like, you know, life and death, like that's, you, you've had near-death experiences.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:31Jay Shetty?

  And that's.

• 36:34Jay Shetty?

  One of the most challenging emotions, and obviously no one ever wants to go back to feeling that way. Talk us through that of having a near death experience and how that impacts you when you reflect on something like that.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  The near death experiences, they're not linear in terms of the, you know, I kept going down, down, down, down. It was rock bottom and then I almost died. It wasn't that necessarily. You know, it can, you know, just be like, yes, I wasn't in a great place. I was in active addiction and I used this drug and that drug and then I ended up in the hospital and my heart was beating out of my chest, that type of thing. But I think of this moment where I was withdrawing off of OxyContin. I was just crying, I was crying. I was in the middle of the street. It was summertime in Seattle, which is like the most beautiful place in the world. I'm biased, but it was the most, it's the most beautiful

• 37:33Speaker 01

  place in the world in the summertime and I'm there and I can't stop crying and I see no future for happiness. All my serotonin was completely depleted. I was 100% reliant on this drug for any sort of crane to pull me out of a place of wanting to die. And I think that these near death experiences, yes, I have had actual like, you know, you were close moments and, you know, ended up in the hospital moments, close to, you know, death. But even more scary than those are those moments where you don't care. It can

• 38:16Speaker 01

  even go a step further than you don't care. It goes to a place of, I don't want to be here. Those are super, super scary in hindsight. In the moment, it's like,

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Take me.

• 38:29Jay Shetty?

  Wow, yeah.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Take me. I'm not fighting anymore, not fighting for life anymore. I've, I've gone down the trail deep enough into the forest of this that I am fine to just leave this physical space. That's scary.

• 38:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it definitely is. I, I, you're reminding me of, I had a conversation with Dennis Rodman, like, three years ago now, on the podcast. And I asked him what his purpose in life was, and he said to survive another day, like to live another day. And to have someone say that in front of you, like, in an interview, I was like, it really took me aback because you're not expecting that, A, that much honesty, but, but in that moment, that much.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:14Jay Shetty?

  You know, vulnerability as well. And I know he's surrounded by a good group of people who are supporting him and helping him, but it was scary even to experience. And you know, you've had your partner, your wife, who's, who's been such a big part of your journey. You know, you've, you've spoken about her music, like, she's been such a supporting figure. Obviously, she loves you, that's, that's without a doubt, and you love her. But what do you think has allowed her to be a supportive and helpful partner during this time? And how have you tried to help her help you?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:51Jay Shetty?

  Sometimes you may have got it wrong, sometimes, you know, but tell me a bit about what she's done exceptionally well.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:57Jay Shetty?

  And then when you've helped to help you in an exceptional way, but then sometimes when maybe you haven't helped the situation.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, it's a good question. You know, my wife is, is a, is amazing. She's a big fan of, of you. She's super excited.

• 40:12Jay Shetty?

  She should have come today.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Right, she's.

• 40:14Jay Shetty?

  She's not here.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  She's, she's directing a music video, actually, so she's in the midst of, of planning for that.

• 40:19Jay Shetty?

  Tell her I sent my love.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  I, I definitely will.

• 40:21Jay Shetty?

  I'll send a gift. We'll have to send something with you for this.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's, she's a massive fan. So, um, it's cool to, to talk about her. She's, um, yeah, she's my best friend. She's amazing. She, um, I think first and foremost, you know, I was in, I was in rehab in two thousand eight, and I had been with her for, you know, since two thousand six. So we're, you know, a couple of years into a relationship. And she was supposed to come up and visit me in rehab. And all the families show up. You know, the commencement of group therapy starts. My, at the time, girlfriend wasn't there. And she had ended up getting arrested on the way up.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  She was still drunk from the night before. After that, she never went to treatment. She did some 12-step work, but she has never used sense. And she was definitely, you know, one of us, like one of me, an addict and an alcoholic. And I never had that off switch. But the way that she has shown up for me is that she has stayed clean. And for herself, first and foremost, foundational level. And we just celebrated last Friday, her 14 years of sobriety. And I got to watch her take her coin, go up to the front of the meeting in front of, you know, 100 people and take her coin and she's all nervous.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  And, you know, I have tears in my eyes and I'm just like, this is my person. I'm rooting for her more than anything, to be clean and to be healthy. And it's something, and she has done something that I haven't been able to do, which is continuously stay clean. And it's a complex question, you know, like, how do I help her help me? The one thing about the disease of addiction is that it is insidious. And that when I am in active addiction, it starts before I actually pick up the first drink or drug. It starts slowly and it creeps and it escalates. And it starts telling me, you know what? No one's around, no one's gonna know, you can do that.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  All of a sudden, I'm in self-will. I'm not in God's will anymore. I'm in self-will. What do I want? And that selfishness rises and rises and rises. And it can start with simple things, you know, just like, you deserve that. Like, go ahead, buy that.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Omit that. These little ways that it just starts creeping, creeping, creeping, getting louder. And for me, all of a sudden, it leads me to this place of none of that works. Like, material possession to feel happy does not work for me. You know, like, go ahead, get another watch. Go ahead, get that jacket, get those shoes. You know, do that, have that experience, you deserve it. It doesn't spiritually fulfill me. So now I'm like, I'm on empty in the spiritual tank and I'm reaching for anything. Come on, more, more, more. How do I fulfill, how do I fill this void? This God-sized hole? What do I do with this? And eventually, I start to think, a drink or a drug sounds like the best idea.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Cause I hate myself. Now, how can I help my wife help me in those moments? It's counterintuitive. Because when I'm in active addiction and the disease is talking to me, I don't want to tell anybody. The disease is like, don't tell her. No, she doesn't care. You know, the lies, the lies that I'm telling to myself in order to act out are getting increasingly loud. It's a very, you know, I probably sound crazy right now. But it's, um.

• 44:04Jay Shetty?

  You're educating.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  That's how the disease works for me. And I think unless you have the disease, and maybe it sounds crazy, but that's actually the narrative that's slowly happening, whether I'm conscious or unconscious in my head, to get me to the point of hating myself enough that a drink or a drug sounds like the best solution. So, I have to tell her. I have to be honest. And she has seen enough relapses at this point that she's like, dude, what are you doing? You're in self-will right now. When was the last time that you called your sponsor? When have you got outside of self? When have you done something in your recovery community? Why don't you go to a meeting? She holds me accountable, even when I don't want to be held accountable.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  And usually, I can tell because she'll say something. And if I'm naturally defensive, if I'm like, no, you don't know what I'm doing, you know? Usually I'm like, okay, she's got, she's got a pulse. She knows me very well and she's trying to help you, dude. Like, you know, if she says, you know, sometimes she can misread the room. And I can completely hold that space and listen to her and be like, I understand that I could be doing better in these, these categories, but I'm actually feeling pretty good right now. And I welcome that from people in my life. Like, I think part of addiction is that it's, it has to be secret.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  You know, even you talk about 10 years ago with like, you know, this depression that you're like, I feel like I, I had to be okay. I had to be fine. I had to tell people I was fine. And there's this secrecy with addiction that we can't talk about it. That when those thoughts come in or in recovery and I'm like, I'm a person in recovery. I have to be like, you know, holding up these pillars. And now I'm a public figure in recovery and I need to be, it's like, dude, I am still, I am just like everyone else, completely fallible and so far from who I want to be. But the more people that I can talk about, that I can talk to, where I'm not a secret, that is when I share my truth and it opens up a platform for other people to, or when they share their truth,

• 46:14Speaker 01

  all of a sudden I feel comfortable in the space to tell mine. The disease dissipates.

• 46:19Jay Shetty?

  And by the way, you don't, in your words, don't sound crazy at all. Actually, I feel like you're educating us and enlightening us on what's going on inside. And so actually I'm learning a lot and I appreciate it a lot. Because I don't think we, we only watch these, if it doesn't happen to us, you only watch it from the outside.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:38Jay Shetty?

  And you have no idea what the dialogue in someone's mind is. And so hearing what dialogue you've had in your mind is massively illuminating. Because like you referred to mine, I, I agree with that on so many levels. And that's, that wasn't even addiction. That was, that was a form of depression that I was experiencing and couldn't vocalize it. What to speak of something when you're going through addiction.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:03Jay Shetty?

  And, and I couldn't agree with you more that.

• 47:07Jay Shetty?

  Whether it's something tiny or whether it's something huge, if we don't talk about it, you actually never learn. Like, I had a very non-life-threatening surgery recently. Like, it's pretty routine, it's inconvenient, but it's not like, you know, it's not, I'm not gonna, you know, die from it. Like, that's not what kind of surgery it is. And me even just telling some of my friends about that, I found out a quarter of my friends have had that surgery but never told me. Like, no one ever talks about it. And I know it's not a big deal, but the point is that knowing that they'd had it and knowing that they'd been through the surgery and knowing that they'd recovered or knowing where they'd had struggles was useful.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:44Jay Shetty?

  What to speak of addiction or something that's far more detrimental to your health and wellbeing.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:50Jay Shetty?

  You know, I can totally understand why being able to share that. And I really love the point you're making about, and this is partly societal and ourselves, is you just explained a lot of roles. Like, I'm a public figure in recovery, I'm a, I'm a this in this. I'm a music artist who was addicted, whatever. So, we create all these titles and roles and designations that are not the real us. And society forces us to play them and we force it. There was a lyric that I, I love. This is probably one of my favorite songs that you've done. I was talking to my, I have a meditation program that I've created for calm and we were just there recording before this.

• 48:35Jay Shetty?

  And so, we, I'm recording for like four hours just teaching meditations. And I was speaking to my producer, I'm really good friends with, his name is Ben too, saying that you were coming on the show. He loves rap too. And so, I was showing that you were coming on. And we then started talking about some of our favorite songs. So, he was saying this one was his and I was like, oh, me too. It's the Light Tunnels. And there was this lyric that, that I thought is really powerful for what we're talking about right now. You say, they want the gossip, they want the drama, they want Britney Spears to make out with Madonna, they want Kanye to rant and go on longer, because that equates to more dollars. They want talking topics, they want trending topics, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And so, you know, it's, it's that idea that we're trying to create, society's trying to create these identities for us.

• 49:21Jay Shetty?

  And then we kind of try and live up to those identities. How do you in this moment disconnect from that and go, well, actually, yes, people may say I'm a public figure going through recovery. I'm a music artist doing this. How have you found a way over time to not subscribe to that identity? And be like, no, I'm Ben, I'm, you know, who, who are you today? Like, how do you create that disconnect?

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Things that help my kids getting off of social media. Again, not to be redundant, but my, my community in recovery. I think we're all trying to get back to that place. Whether you're in the public, you know, space or not. It's, it's the idea of who am I really at the core? And I've always used, used art as a medium to find out my own truth and to find out who I am as a person. But it's all the things that we're kind of discussing. It's like, and you were talking about in terms of service too, like, you know,

• 50:26Speaker 01

  doing your own work and then putting it back and then going back and forth in this cycle. I think it's getting exercise. I think it's clearing the mind. I think that it's, um, picking up the phone. I think that it's like, I, I think it's these small little acts throughout the course of a day that, that you realize that all of this is so fleeting and that it, that it's not real. It's not all of that world that, that's in light tunnels that we're speaking about. It's as real as we make it. And I think that it's really challenging to divorce yourself from media when you are a part of the media, when you are a part of a, a topic. Or, you know, you can, I could throw out 10 celebrities' names in like the first, you know,

• 51:11Speaker 01

  you'll have thoughts and judgments right away when you hear someone's name. And we've put people, we've compartmentalized people. We put them in the boxes. We don't really get to know who they are. And I think that that's why long form podcasts or, or, you know, conversations are, have helped to, to kind of reshape how we view certain people. And are actually really beneficial to get to know individuals outside of a headline. Now, the unfortunate part is, and also for how short our attention spans are.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  And now, you know, we, you know, five second increments, fifteen second increments. We're scrolling, we're moving on. We, we can't retain information. We're, we're on to the next. It's really dope to see that like long form podcasts, there's a lane for this. Where either it's super fast, or like, I'm gonna listen to Joe Rogan for three hours. You know what I mean? And like, and I think that that's because people are longing for something deeper. They want to hear conversation. They want to see the evolution of, of dialogue. Start here and go here. You know, like, that is what actually is real.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  We are not, we, we are not creatures that operate in, in three to five second increments. There is a flow and an evolution. And I think that explaining who, who we really are, you know, our character defects, our flaws, our shortcomings to the things that make us brilliant and unique. To really examine those is, is what this life really is all about. And that the rest of it is something, is, is a hurdle to get over.

• 53:06Jay Shetty?

  I, I, I love that analysis of it, I really do. Because you said earlier, you, you said we're spiritual beings having this human experience. And I think a lot of people on their spiritual journeys or their inner journeys, at one point you get caught in the evolution of it where it's hard being a spiritual being having a human experience. Like, you're like, how do I make music in this world, but then not feel of this world? Like, that becomes a really tough thing. And I've worked on that personally. I work on it personally. I work with so many people on it personally. And I find that the natural human instinct is to retreat.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:50Jay Shetty?

  It's like to remove ourselves. And when I became a monk, I think subconsciously, that's exactly what I was doing. Where I wasn't escaping because I didn't have a, a bad experience with the material world. I could just see from other people's experiences that the material world wasn't satisfying to them.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:07Jay Shetty?

  I could see people who were more successful than me, more wealthy than me, more, you know, everything than me. I was 21 years old. And I could see that they weren't happy. And so I was like, okay, well, I need to figure out a different path. And I gained three years of getting time to figure out what my values were and who I was and why I wanted to do anything. And then coming back, like, I find that too today, where it's like, I'm not a monk anymore. I'm married, I have businesses, we have money, like, you know, things like that. And it was like, I had to make peace and sense of those ideas for what they meant to me

• 54:48Jay Shetty?

  and what their use was, without them defining me or me trying to distance myself from them. So I think when we, first, we chase things.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:58Jay Shetty?

  And then we run away from them until we figure out how to use them properly.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Yes, I was on your Instagram today. And, you know, a massive way that we size people up or that we gauge success is by numbers, right? Analytics and find our own value, right? Like, how did this TikTok do? Why did this one work and this one didn't?

• 55:24Jay Shetty?

  Yep.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  You know, I really liked what I said in this one. And, and no one really, no one shared it.

• 55:32Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Why?

• 55:32Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  I mean, that's part of your business.

• 55:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Yet, your platform is based around like, mental health, which in a way, our society, and yet, the way that you talk about this is via TikTok, via Instagram, via these social media things that have got our society stuck in this place of comparison, in this place of ego, in this place of I am lesser than, I am not enough, look at all of these other people's lives, I am living scrolling, these death scrolls that we do, I feel horrible about myself. Culture that is really addictive. How do you balance the game that you have to play, yet with the spiritual, mental health side that you have to live?

• 56:18Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, definitely. It's such a great question. And. I'd say that, so I started doing what I do today offline when I was eighteen years old. So after I met the monk for the first time, which I talk about in my book, Think Like a Monk, I met my first monk teacher at eighteen years old and I started spending time with him. And whatever he would teach me, I would share it.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:40Jay Shetty?

  Because I was so blown away by it. So I started a club or a society, as we call them in England, a society in, at university, at college called Think Out Loud. And every single week, I'd invite students over and we'd sit and we'd dissect a movie and talk about it philosophically, psychologically, spiritually. And I would facilitate these sessions. And when I first started them, like zero people showed up because it's like, people at eighteen wanna get drunk and go to the club. They don't wanna come to a society to think out loud.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:13Jay Shetty?

  And so then I started handing out posters and flyers because I realized that I had to do a bit of marketing to make sure people were interested. And then people started coming. And so by the time I finished university, we had a hundred people coming.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:25Jay Shetty?

  And no one paid for it. It was absolutely free. I did it because I loved it. I did it because I got the buzz of presenting what I was learning to people and helping them. And I built some of my best friendships that way because I met all these people at university who were like, oh yeah, we, Jay helps us understand the stuff he's learning from the monks and the wisdom. Same stuff I do today. And then when I went to the monastery, obviously, I actually spent time studying and deepening my meditation and actually deepening my skills. And since I've come back, I've done the same thing. So I've been doing this offline when no one cared.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:59Jay Shetty?

  And no one viewed and no one watched and there were no followers and there was no money for ten years before I did it online. So up until six years ago, if you came to one of my events in London called Conscious Living, ten people showed up once a month to hear me talk about these same things that I talk about today.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  It sounds like my underground rap career.

• 58:18Jay Shetty?

  Right, yeah, exactly. That's, that's basically what it is. It's like, and I did it for ten years, not thinking one day it would be big. I did it because I loved it. I, I loved this. So I went from.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 58:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I loved it. I did it for ten years with no money, no followers, no nothing.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:33Jay Shetty?

  And it was amazing, even when ten people showed up, I was so grateful.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:37Jay Shetty?

  So then when six years ago, this kind of took off and then in the last couple of years, it's really blown up. I live in gratitude every day. And yes, I am massively aware of what connects with people and what resonates with people. But my intention is different. My intention is, how deeply can I speak what I'm learning and what I've learned? So that it scales and gives access to everyone. So I'm not basing my self-worth on how many people like it. I'm basing my ability to simplify ideas on that. And that's just one part of me. My self-worth is based on how I feel about myself, how my wife thinks about me, because she knows me really well. How my monk teachers feel about what I do.

• 59:22Jay Shetty?

  And my best friends, who've been my best friends for like nearly 20 years. Like, those are the people whose opinion matters deeply to me. My community here matters to me. But at the same time, my self-worth is not based on that. My ability to do my job well and the purpose I've chosen is based on that. And I think, like you're saying, that isn't a perfected formula. It's a daily commitment to, can I improve my ability to communicate? But this isn't me improving who I am. This is me improving my ability to communicate seemingly complex ideas in a way that everyone can understand and digest them. But that's just 1% of who I am.

• 1:00:04Jay Shetty?

  That's not, that's not me in entirety, if that makes sense.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  It does. Do you look at the numbers?

• 1:00:10Jay Shetty?

  Of course I do, yeah, 100%. I, I, I think it's hard to do what I do without looking at the numbers. It's just that the numbers don't dictate. Like, I won't go to sleep upset at myself as a human being, as a soul, because of a number going badly. I will just be like, there is a defect in my process of communicating. Or effectively... Transferring this message, that I can work on. But if I think this is a problem with me.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Jay Shetty?

  That's too heavy. And that's where I think the disconnect is.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Dude, you can always blame the algorithm. You always blame the algorithm.

• 1:00:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I don't like doing that.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  When in doubt.

• 1:00:50Jay Shetty?

  I'm one of those people that I'll sit down with people. I'll be like, the issue is never the, well.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:54Jay Shetty?

  Very rarely is the issue actually the algorithm from my six years of social media experience. The issue is your ability to understand what is going on. But again, that's not you. And so, and I think that's what we've not learned how to differentiate our album sales from our self-worth.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:14Jay Shetty?

  Or our social media following from our self-worth and our identity. So to me, they're two things. This I need to improve professionally, but my professional failure is not a personal failure. And I think that, I'm always grappling with that. Again, I have not arrived. This is a daily conversation in my head.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35Jay Shetty?

  But I feel healthier that I want to figure out how to fix this for this. But fixing that is not fixing this. These are two separate, like I meditate for me. I don't meditate to improve my career. And I don't focus on my career to improve my feeling of me. They're two separate lanes.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Jay Shetty?

  If that makes sense.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:01:54Jay Shetty?

  I see success and happiness, and I want to come to this to ask you. I see success and happiness as two separate lanes.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:02:01Jay Shetty?

  Happiness is what I do for myself. And success is what my career brings and what it can achieve. But I don't cross the two because that's when I think it gets messy for me. And I wanted to ask that, like, as you've gone through so many highs and lows, successes and losses. How have you, how do you define success and happiness for yourself right now? Like, how do you look at those terms? And what do they mean to you now compared to what they meant to you like 10, 15 years ago?

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:30Jay Shetty?

  And I hope I answered your question.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, you did.

• 1:02:32Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Beautifully.

• 1:02:34Jay Shetty?

  Honestly, it was just an honest answer.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No.

• 1:02:39Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I know how important every hire is for a business. If you need to make the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed sponsored jobs helps find quality candidates when you need the most. You can reach who you need based on whatever criteria you're looking for, like skills, certifications, or location. In fact, people are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast.

• 1:03:22Jay Shetty?

  That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Mazda. The best habits are the ones we hardly notice, the ones that quietly shape the way we move through life, giving us the confidence to focus on what really matters. That's Mazda's approach to safety. Every Mazda is designed with proactive safety features that help keep you more aware, more connected, and more engaged with your drive, so you can stay present behind the wheel. That commitment has earned Mazda recognition as Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. And as of July 2026, Mazda has won more 2026 IIHS Top Safety Pick Plus awards than any other car brand.

• 1:04:07Jay Shetty?

  Visit www.iihs.org to learn more. A lot can happen when an accident doesn't. Mazda, more of what matters to you. Visit MazdaUSA.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  I think about success very different. And I get caught up in the matrix of everything.

• 1:04:28Jay Shetty?

  Of course.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  But am I fulfilled? Happiness is fleeting, right? The more we try to grab on to it, the further it gets. Do I have sustained fulfillment? Do I have meaning? Do I have purpose? Do I have a life that is worth living? Do I feel excited to wake up most days? Am I engaged with my kids? All of those things, that to me is what success feels like today. Now, I also have a business. I have multiple businesses. And I like to win. I'm a competitive person. Me too, I get that. I do like to win. Now, winning, I think, is a tricky thing, right? Because oftentimes, we don't know what, we never know what's in store.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  I might drive away from here and, you know, crash down the hill and that's it. You don't know. And I think about, you know, what I want. You know, the last two singles that you've mentioned, I thought that they were really great pieces of art. Thought that they were, you know, had potential for like, you know, Chant. It's like, it's got this anthemic hook and, you know, it's got a feature that people know. And I'm rapping really well and the beat gets really big. Hasn't performed well commercially. Maniac, sounds like something that could be on the radio and, you know, it kinda is, but it's bubbling slowly. But it's not really streaming well. All these things, I have a team of people that are trying to figure out, that we're trying to figure out, why this worked, why this didn't work.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  And I realize that the universe is already, it's already been written. I believe that what's supposed to be will be. And when I can get in that place of acceptance, that regardless of what happens with Chance, regardless of what happens with Maniac, or the next single, or my album, and how many first week sales it does, and YouTube numbers, and if I grow my TikTok audience, all of that is not happiness. It is completely separate. And if I get too caught up in that, like you're saying, if I get too caught up in that world, then I cannot truly be fulfilled and have meaning in my spiritual life, which...

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Is where the true like, I'm just okay. I'm just okay with what is. And I don't control it. And some of the most painful experiences where I was like, why is this happening to me? Like, God, why would you do this to me? Were my greatest blessings. Were the things that opened up the door for something. And it sounds cliche. It's like, you know, but you have to go through those moments of pain. You have to walk through that fire to get to that place of, oh, I had no idea why I was doing that. And now I am here and look at how beautiful this moment is. And I think that the trick is remembering in those moments of, of why. Why is this happening?

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  That there is a deeper reasoning and that this will pass.

• 1:07:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, totally. Yeah, the way I was thinking about what you were saying and what I was sharing earlier. And it's that imagine you just bought a brand new car. You love it. You think it's beautiful. It's great. And you go driving and you were saying when you drive out here and you're driving your car. And then someone knocks into it and it gets a dent. And it's a really bad dent. That means you can't drive it. It needs to get fixed. It needs to get sorted out. Now, when I get out of that car and I get into bed that night, if I'm thinking I'm dented, that's just inaccurate. The truth is something I have, something I care about is dented and that needs to be fixed.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:03Jay Shetty?

  But I'm not dented because my car's dented. I'm not damaged because my car is damaged. My car is damaged and it needs to go to the shop and it needs to get fixed. But that doesn't damage me. And I think that's that disconnect where it's like, yeah, like when you're saying like the album sales are not right, whatever it is. It's like, yeah, that needs to be fixed. That needs to be sorted out. But that doesn't mean that I'm broken. That just means that there is a system mechanism with somehow how we're creating, how we're building, that can be improved.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:08:30Jay Shetty?

  Right? And so to me, and I love the point that you're saying that to me, it's also. An alignment of how much we're creating and what we're creating. I find that when I make something out of alignment, it's more likely to fail.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:45Jay Shetty?

  When I make something from a place of I'm making this because I really believe in it. I care about it. I've actually focused on getting good at it. And now I'm putting it out there. It has a better chance of doing well.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:56Jay Shetty?

  Versus when I put something out, because I'm like, I can do this.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:59Jay Shetty?

  I know I can do this because I have this. And so I think when people are like, oh, I have followers, so I can do this.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:06Jay Shetty?

  But you don't really want to do that. You're just doing that because you have followers. And I think there's a study that shows how after someone sells a company, in the next two years, they make their worst investment decisions.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:09:19Jay Shetty?

  Why? Because now they have money.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:09:21Jay Shetty?

  So they make bad investment decisions. When you didn't have money, you made better investment decisions because you were so careful and so thoughtful about it.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:29Jay Shetty?

  And so I find like sometimes abundance leads to stupidity.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:34Jay Shetty?

  Because abundance needs to be treated with love and respect as opposed to with abandon and and wastage.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you brought up a good point in terms of, you know, the 10 people that would come out in London.

• 1:09:50Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  To talk and what your intention was. And I think that for all of us, but particularly being in in the public eye, it's constantly moving that needle back to what is my intention here?

• 1:10:06Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  What is my intention?

• 1:10:08Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  And if you're in the studio and and or, you know, I'm in the studio and I'm creating a record. If I'm going into it like this is the one that's going to be on the radio. That song sucks.

• 1:10:22Jay Shetty?

  Yes, thank you.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  That song is horrible.

• 1:10:25Jay Shetty?

  Yes, thank you.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  No one wants to hear that. And the public is smarter than we give the public credit for. They can tell when an artist doesn't know another artist and they just made a song because the labels were like, you know what, one plus one equals three. No, it doesn't. Real art is felt.

• 1:10:40Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Authentic people.

• 1:10:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  That's that's what's contagious is when people can actually feel and hear that authenticity. You can't manufacture that. And again, but with all the noise, with all the white noise that's it's in the periphery. If I'm not centered, if I'm not spiritually fit, I'm eventually going to feel like, guys, we need a TikTok song. We need something that like is gonna be really catchy in a five-second increment. And if we don't have that, then I'm not gonna be happy.

• 1:11:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  And it has been proven time and time again that that's not how art works.

• 1:11:17Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  And I think that this fast food way of of of media right now, in some ways can be great, but in other ways, it's it has. My fear is that it's killed the art. It's it's killed the overall arc of an album or the growth of an artist, you know, from track number one to song number fifteen. I've realized in this in this album cycle that I'm like in the beginning stages of putting out, we don't take in media like that anymore. Like, the album is almost obsolete. And I don't ever wanna get to a place of creating out of necessity to appease an algorithm or a structure that I don't believe in.

• 1:12:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  I don't believe in it. Now, that's not to say I'm not gonna play the game with what I've created.

• 1:12:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  But I don't want to create and then go play the game.

• 1:12:10Jay Shetty?

  That is brilliant. I I love that. If the intention in in the Vedas, which is the the system that I studied as a monk or the Vedic tradition, it said that there's four motivators or four intentions. So we're talking about intention. So the lowest form of intention is fear or insecurity. We do something out of fear. So it's like, I'm not relevant anymore.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:31Jay Shetty?

  Let's make something that makes me feel relevant, right? That's fear. That's not from a place of art. So you make something from a place of fear. It might do well, it might blow up, but you won't feel satisfied because you know that you were just scared and now you're scared to do it again.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:47Jay Shetty?

  So when you create a fear, it just creates more fear for for new creativity because you don't know how you got there. Higher up from that is to have the intention of what you were saying. You have a target or a goal, but you just plucked it out of the air. I want that number one. I wanna build a billion-dollar company. I wanna and now it's just about this goal because the goal makes you feel good. You don't actually feel good about what you're making, but you like the idea of it might become a number one, whatever billboard or whatever it may be. And so that's a goal or target. Higher than that intention is you're doing something because it feels true to you. And then higher than that is you're making something out of service. Or to improve people's lives, or to impact people. So when you look at those four intentions, what I'm hearing is,

• 1:13:33Jay Shetty?

  like, I want to try and make things in those top two intentions.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:37Jay Shetty?

  And that way, I'll be fulfilled. And like you said, we can play the game with those things too. We'll still figure out a way to make those things relevant and important. But we know that the art is sacred. The art wasn't sold out. And I think that's what I vibe with too. Like, I can totally get behind that because I always connect back to why I started and what connected. And I love the joy of making something sacred go viral. I get so much of a kick out of that. Rather than making something sellout go viral because it would go viral anyway.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great, dude. Like.

• 1:14:11Jay Shetty?

  Oh, you're inspiring this. This is great.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, you think about whenever I'm in the studio, you're trying to get to those top two. And it's almost an exercise when I'm in front of the page to work through those bottom two layers. Because they're there. They're not always there, but they can pop up. You know that, like, can you do it again? And then you said it, like, okay, now you did it. You're still not fulfilled. Can you hold on to it? And you watch people, their entire careers, trying to hold on to that relevancy. And it's just this game of like, come on, can we hold on to this thing? That's like, you know, so we can be put in this echelon and keep working and keep going

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  and never take more than a, you know, 14 months off of an album cycle. We gotta keep going. What awards show are we showing? It's exhausting. It is exhausting and I couldn't keep up with it. And I realized that it really, um, you know, in the first couple of months of being like really famous, that this was not sustainable for me. That I needed to recharge, that I needed to take, take time off to work on myself. So when I go into the studio, I'm not operating out of that place of fear, of scarcity, of, you know, what if this doesn't happen? It's like, dude.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  And I think that that's easier said than done when you had the success, right? When you're like, you know what? I'm gonna be good for life.

• 1:15:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Financially, I'm straight. Just be honest. I'm gonna be okay. But when you're, you know, when you're really, you know, I'm trying to feed my family and I've been there too, you know? I'm trying to, you know, make sure that I don't overdraft, that I'm, that I, you know, can pay this month's rent with my six people I'm living with. And, you know, I need to get this show. So there's, there's a privilege in being able to like, be like, okay, well, like now I'm just working on the spiritual side of myself. Um, and there's an actual real side of it, you know, in terms of the, the physical world of I need to eat.

• 1:16:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  I need to be able to pay for this roof over my head.

• 1:16:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:16:13Jay Shetty?

  That's a great point.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  But still, I'm almost writing in that space to, to get out the cobwebs of those first two, two layers. And get to a place of, you know what? Bare minimum, this does nothing. At least we had a great time in the studio. At least I found out some truth about myself. At least this was an exercise where I got better at my craft and I enjoyed being creative. And I got together with community, whoever was in the studio. And we made something that will be around forever.

• 1:16:48Jay Shetty?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  Regardless of if it's viral or if it's a number one or top a hundred, it doesn't matter. We made something with pure intention. And the people that heard it were the people that we're supposed to. And everything else is outside of my control. And if you're a creative, then you just keep going.

• 1:17:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  You just keep going. And I was like, I was listening to some old music that I had written in like, you know, two thousand four or five or something the other day. And there's this Dennis Hopper sample and he's talking about, um, you know, if you're an artist, if you are really, truly an artist, um, your art is like breathing. You have no choice but to create, that that is the exercise. And I want to be that person. I am that person. I don't have to try to be that person. I just, I am an artist. And for those of us that are, there is no choice. The success is a bonus, but at the end of the day, if I wasn't doing this for a living, sure, I might have a different nine to five.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  But I can almost guarantee you that when I get home from work, I'd be going right back to writing raps.

• 1:17:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and that's what it is. It's that love. It's that dedication. And I love the clarity you gave, though, of when you're on the come up versus when you've created a platform, because I agree with you that sometimes fear and the goal of survival are actually what gets you started and gets you going and gets you your first breakthrough.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:18:19Jay Shetty?

  It's just, once you've had that, please upgrade.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:18:22Jay Shetty?

  Right? Because if you don't upgrade at that point, you're still driving in gear two.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:18:28Jay Shetty?

  And it's like, but no, no, no, you were meant to get to gear five by now. And you're still going at gear two. And it's like, that's what takes you down the other way. And so I agree with you. I think you're right there. I think it's such a great clarification. I'm so glad you brought that up. That sometimes fear and the goal and the insecurity is what gets you moving.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:48Jay Shetty?

  And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that it gets you moving. It's just not going to keep momentum. And I've just seen too many people just stay on that gear two. And that's when it all breaks down, right? So I think that's such a beautiful description. Where are you today as you look to the future, as you look to now, as you look to what you're building and creating for yourself? Like, what are the values that govern your personal and professional life today? Like, what are some of the values that you're developing, working on, and holding close to your heart right now?

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Honesty with myself, with my partner, with my kids, with my community. I want to be transparent in all facets of where I'm at. I think that Vulnerability, honesty, telling the truth are constantly things that I come back to that just make my life more streamlined. I don't want to hide anything. I don't want this person to know this part of me and this person. Like, I want to be someone that can hold that space of this is who I am. And, um, and I'm honest about it. I want to have integrity in that sense.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  I want to keep delving into the layers of my own character defects, of things that I need to work on, of studying my past traumas in order to figure out my next step and to figure out where I'm at. I want to, I want to be a dad that listens, that asks questions, that is there for the beautiful moments, the difficult ones, that's super important to me. And I realize that with my lifestyle, there's a frequency in our house, right? Like, my wife is working on a million things that have to do with all of our creative projects.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  I am, there's people in and out of my house all the time. And I think that that frequency, my, my kids, I know they can feel it. I know they can feel the insanity of this creative, like, you know, home that we have that is beautiful, but it's also chaotic. And I, I want to make sure that, um, I'm taking time for those small moments that is much of like this rat race that we're in to, to do a media run and to, you know, go from here to the next thing to this and that I taking the time to really be present with my kids because it goes so quickly. You know, my daughter's already, you know, my, my eldest is seven and a half.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  And it's like, seems like, it's so cliché. It seems like yesterday she was, you know, two months old. And, um, I know that that's how life moves. And I just want to be someone that like, when I look back at it all, through all the ups, the downs, the triumphs, the shortcomings, that I can look back on it all and be like, you know what? I left something.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Here on this earth, I was, I made some art that impacted the world. And that doesn't need to be on a broad, big, broad brush stroke scale. That can just be with a couple individuals, that I made some art that resonated, that changed some lives. And not in a grandiose way, but just like the MCs that came before me. Underground rappers that changed the way I think about life. That, you know, I think about, there's this rapper that passed from the group Blackalicious. His name's Gift of Gab and he passed last year. And he had this era of fantastic music and he passed away, didn't know he was sick. And he passed away during COVID.

• 1:22:42Speaker 01

  And I remember just thinking like, I never got to tell him what his music meant to me. And the spiritual, the spirituality in his writing and how that resonated with me when I was 18 years old. That led me to delve into myself via the pen. And that if it wasn't for him, I might not have ever written Other Side. I might not have ever written Same Love. That he actually gave me some tools that opened up this conduit. That I was able to channel something bigger than myself in these moments that led to music that then impacted others.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  And that that music could go on to transfer in different ways to a next generation. That is what I'm seeking as a person and as an artist. And I think that that, you know, when you've had that platform, you know, or you have a platform like I have. There's this tendency to think that it has to be on this massive scale. And I don't want to think about my life in this big, you know, open canvas of a world. Like I need to, you know, there needs to be millions and, you know, a billion people that know who I am and lose what's right in front of me, which is my seven year old, my four year old and my 14 month old. Or my wife and know that my family is there and that's.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  At the very forefront of what I care about just as much as speaking to the rest of the world. I don't want to miss that.

• 1:24:12Jay Shetty?

  Ben, that's extremely powerful and I love that reflection coming through you right now and channeling all those ideas with us. We end every episode with two segments. One's called the final five, which is every question has to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So you have a sentence.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  One word, one sentence.

• 1:24:33Jay Shetty?

  One word to one sentence. You get, you get that. And then we'll do the other one. So these are your final five, Ben. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever received?

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Be present.

• 1:24:46Jay Shetty?

  Nice.

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Be present.

• 1:24:47Jay Shetty?

  Simple and easy. That's good advice. That's, that's always great advice. What's some of the worst advice you've heard, received or seen repeated? Or advice you'd never want your kids to receive, advice you'd never want them to hear?

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  I never want my kids to believe that other people's opinion of them

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  is any of their business.

• 1:25:08Jay Shetty?

  I agree. That's beautiful. All right. Question number three. What is your current purpose in life? Like, how do you define your purpose today in the work you do and who you are?

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  My purpose is to create, to explore and to show up for other people.

• 1:25:25Jay Shetty?

  Question number four, if you could, what's something you used to value that you don't value anymore?

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  I used to value superficial, momentary escapism.

• 1:25:37Jay Shetty?

  Fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  That all people would have empathy for one another.

• 1:25:54Jay Shetty?

  We need that.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  And accept people for where they're at.

• 1:25:58Jay Shetty?

  Ben, thank you so much.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:26:00Jay Shetty?

  I'm so grateful to have spent this time with you, to have had the opportunity to connect with you. I mean, we've been talking for like nearly two hours. It's been amazing. And thank you for being so open, so vulnerable, so. So giving and also just generating so many interesting directions for this, it felt like a real conversation and back and forth. So I appreciate that a lot. Absolutely. Thank you so much. You're great, man. I appreciate this. Thank you. And everyone who's been listening and watching, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're cooking, whether you're on your way to work, on your way back from work or at work, I want you to share what you learned today. So please tag us both on Instagram, on TikTok, on YouTube, on whatever platform you use, Twitter, and just let us know what

• 1:26:44Jay Shetty?

  were the insights that stuck with you. Maybe there's a practice or an idea that you're going to share with a friend. I love knowing what's going to stay with you from this conversation. And of course, we hope that Ben will come back on in the future and keep documenting this journey with us. Absolutely. You have an open invite, Ben, whenever you want to come back. Appreciate that. So grateful for your time. Likewise. Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion.