James Harrison 2x Super Bowl Champion, former All Pro LineBacker one of the NFL's scariest man opens up on what kept him humble, the mentality fueled his greatness, his famous 100 yard Interception return in SB XLIII and how parenting saved his life

“I never really wanted kids because I never wanted to care more about somebody than I did myself. And when I had them, I became vulnerable. I was no longer invincible. I think that was something I needed.” James Harrison 2x Super Bowl Champ and 5x Pro Bowler on his biggest Pivot After the sports world just witnessed one of the best defensive performances by a team in a Super Bowl with Philadelphia’s win, we can’t help but remember the infamous 100 yard interception return by James Harrison in Super Bowl XLIII and how maybe the All Pro Line Backer was onto something when he said, "Offense win games, Defense win championships." The Super Bowl hero and former Pittsburgh Steelers All Pro sits with his old teammate Ryan Clark, along with Channing Crowder and Fred Taylor, for a wide open and wide ranging conversation about his NFL journey, his unmatched intensity on and off the field and how fatherhood saved his life. Starting out the gate, the question is asked: Is James Harrison actually scary, or just misunderstood? Channing has funny banter as the guys debate James’ intense, no-nonsense demeanor and how he maintained this alter ego. Harrison shares how he was raised to believe that kindness could be mistaken for weakness and lived by that mantra with his on-field play reflecting it. Harrison opens up about his struggles early on in his career from playing at Kent State to NFL Europe to getting cut multiple times, and almost walking away from football. But his relentless work ethic instilled from his parents and a 'chip on the shoulder' mentality fueled his efforts. He shares how Steelers Defensive Coordinator Dick LeBeau played a crucial role in shaping his career, admitting that without him, “There is no James Harrison.” Harrison doesn’t hold back when discussing some of his hardest hits and biggest fines, including a notable play involving Josh Cribbs that cost him $75,000, which he feels he shouldn’t have paid, but perhaps someone in the room who was truly responsible for it, should have paid, as he gives a look to Ryan. The guys get into a deeper conversation about how the locker room and playing mentality was different during their days vs today's era. He reveals in a shocking story, what ultimately led him to leave Pittsburgh to play with AFC rivals Patriots and then Bengals. Always living on the edge with a reckless abandon approach to all aspects of his life, Harrison opens up on how becoming a father didn't just soften him, but changed his entire outlook financially, mentally and even safety wise. In a heartfelt moment, James shares the 180 his life took after becoming a dad and how 100% honesty is what guides his parenting skills, even when some things are better off not said! From parenting advice to chatting about James' potential MMA/boxing match with Chad OchoCinco Johnson, the guys' conversation goes from laugh out loud moments to tears filling up discussing the evolution of life as the men have grown older. This episode has it all whether a football fan or curious about life, family, growth as we peel back the layers of James Harrison- the fierce competitor, the devoted father, and the man who never backs down from a challenge. Pivot Family-Use code 50PIVOT to get 50% OFF plus free shipping on your first Factor box at https://bit.ly/40yF3k1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Running a small business means I wear lots of hats. When I put on my hiring hat, I can count on LinkedIn Hiring Pro to make it easy. LinkedIn Hiring Pro helps manage my hiring workflow, puts my job post in front of a unique network of professionals, and matches me with the best candidates for my business. I can also share my job with my network. No other job site lets me do that. No wonder most small businesses say they'd use LinkedIn Hiring Pro again. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free on LinkedIn today at LinkedIn.com/quality.

• 0:30Ryan Clark?

  He should look dumb in the suit anyway. He had too many muscles. I was telling you.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 0:36Ryan Clark?

  I was saying.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  He should look good in the suit.

• 0:38Ryan Clark?

  I was trying to tell you that you don't dress up, you know what I mean?

• 0:41Speaker 02

  No, I was about to go there.

• 0:43Ryan Clark?

  Why you cross branding with your shorts, your shorts on the armor?

• 0:47Speaker 02

  Everything.

• 0:47Ryan Clark?

  Your shoes, Nike?

• 0:48Speaker 02

  Everything. I'm letting everybody know I'm open.

• 0:52Ryan Clark?

  Bruh, but you coming on a show like, people watch this.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  I don't care.

• 0:57Ryan Clark?

  Why you dressed like that?

• 0:58Speaker 02

  They ain't looking at nothing down here. They looking from here up.

• 1:01Ryan Clark?

  What's that? Well, you got muscles up there at least.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's what I'm talking, what you talking about.

• 1:06Ryan Clark?

  How much you weigh right now, Dibo?

• 1:07Speaker 02

  Shit, I haven't lost weight, so...

• 1:12Speaker 02

  I would say maybe 270.

• 1:13Ryan Clark?

  What was the most you got up to since you retired?

• 1:16Speaker 02

  308.

• 1:16Ryan Clark?

  308? Why were you 308?

• 1:19Speaker 02

  I was depressed. I had my knee surgery. I couldn't move for like six weeks. I couldn't walk on it. I couldn't put no weight. I was eating, bruh. Son called me fat. It was bad.

• 1:31Ryan Clark?

  You like case?

• 1:32Speaker 02

  I went to tie my shoe, bruh, and my stomach got in the way and I had to do this one right here. Kick my leg out.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  I was like, yeah.

• 1:42Ryan Clark?

  Dibo, you try to be intimidating? Is it a goal?

• 1:47Speaker 02

  I don't really try. I don't really try.

• 1:48Ryan Clark?

  You have to, bruh. Cause I tell the story at Peasy House years ago when he used to do the thing in Bakersfield. You came and asked me, "Do I want a drink?", and I was terrified. And you don't say, "Do you want a drink?", like normally. You was like, "You want some?", I'm like, "Man, no, I don't. I don't, bruh." You just, do you try to be that? Is that you or is that a character?

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Dude, I don't talk like that.

• 2:07Ryan Clark?

  Yes, you do talk like that.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Right? Don't talk like that.

• 2:10Ryan Clark?

  Yes. You're scaring him.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  You're actually scaring him right now.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Listen, if I do, I don't recognize that I do. If I'm trying to, it's a lot.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  I think it's more than that. I don't think I normally like just

• 2:27Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:27Speaker 03

  Communicate like that. I don't, I don't think so. I don't.

• 2:30Ryan Clark?

  You think like you, you, you a kindergarten teacher? You talk like a, you're pleasant?

• 2:35Speaker 03

  I don't do that. I don't, I'm, I'm think I'm pleasant. Yes, I'm pleasant. Don't you think I'm pleasant?

• 2:38Ryan Clark?

  Yes, I do.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:40Channing Crowder?

  He's scared.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  No, he's not.

• 3:04Ryan Clark?

  The voice you hear is James Harrison, better known as Debo, Super Bowl champion of the Pittsburgh Steelers, 2008, 2009 Defensive Player of the Year. Someone who I believe should be in the Hall of Fame, who said publicly that he doesn't believe he should be in the Hall of Fame. Maybe we can have that conversation. This is Channing Crowder. This is Fred Taylor. I'm Ryan Clark. This is the Pivot, Pivot fam. Thank y'all for pivoting with us. Chan, you are right about him. He is pleasant, though.

• 3:31Speaker 03

  Really?

• 3:31Ryan Clark?

  He is pleasant. He's very pleasant. He's like, he's like one of those-

• 3:34Speaker 03

  What about the golf tournament I saw you at? Even that, how you hitting him? I, I don't, I'm, I don't know.

• 3:40Channing Crowder?

  Oh, you sit here and just lie all day?

• 3:42Speaker 03

  Bro, I'm not lying. You present, like, bro, you're intimidating. I ain't no little dude.

• 3:49Ryan Clark?

  Hey, you did let Chad call you the B word and you ain't do nothing, though.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  Listen, that's when I knew the game was over. Now we actually got to deal with this.

• 3:59Ryan Clark?

  So you and Chad had to deal with it now?

• 4:01Speaker 03

  Oh, no question. What do you mean? That's when he let, I thought he was just playing. Like, really? I thought he was just playing? When he said bitch, that was like, yo, it's over with.

• 4:09Fred Taylor?

  Oh, just cross the line.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  Oh, no question. Come on, you know, you can't go.

• 4:12Fred Taylor?

  You know what? But before we keep going, now you, you, they, you, they want to paint you as like this pretending to be bullied, tough guy. I think you're a pleasant gentleman.

• 4:22Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 4:23Fred Taylor?

  And I say that because I might be slightly afraid, too.

• 4:27Fred Taylor?

  That was a pivot. No, well, no, seriously. I want to take the time and do this while I got you here. Because this is the first time this has happened on the pivot. We're going to split the room. That's happened. Super Bowl champions, yes. Undrafted players, yes. Pro Bowlers, yes. First time in pivot history, we have two guys on this show that were both undrafted pro bowlers and won a Super Bowl. Shout out to you guys.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you.

• 4:52Fred Taylor?

  Now, the real question. Who's the best player ever out of Kent State?

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Jack Lambert.

• 4:57Fred Taylor?

  Excuse me?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Jack Lambert.

• 4:59Fred Taylor?

  So, not James Harrison?

• 5:01Speaker 02

  No.

• 5:02Fred Taylor?

  Not Julian Edelman?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  I love Julian. He's a good dude, but no.

• 5:09Fred Taylor?

  So, why not you?

• 5:11Speaker 02

  It's Jack Lambert, man. Come on now. That's who everybody look up to. What are you talking about? That's, that's one of the greatest Steelers of all time. It's Jack Lambert.

• 5:19Fred Taylor?

  But as dominant of a player as you were, like, you have, like, really such, like, a humble, like, demeanor when it comes to your ability and what you did on the field. We played each other many times. I know my assignment was going to be hell, and I couldn't always get it done. I was like, please don't run me out there to block this man. Because I, I couldn't do it, right? I didn't want to do it. But you're so humble, dude, and you've always been that guy. Why are you so humble?

• 5:47Speaker 02

  I think it really comes from Coach LeBeau. Um, to be honest with you, you know? He said, "You're never as bad as they say you are, and you're never as good as you think you are." So, you know, even, you know, even for me, just, just growing up, my, my dad, you know, you had to, you had to work for everything. Everything you did, you had to grind and, and, and, you know, really, really earn. And the crazy thing is, my dad told me I did a good job twice in my whole career. One time, it was, uh, we were playing university schools, and, like, I smoked them boys for, like, three, four, three, fourteen, something like that, you know, ten tackles, all that. And he was like, "Good job." You know what I'm saying? So, when people ask me, like, you know...

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Are you upset that you're not in the Hall of Fame, all that other stuff? Nah, I ain't tripping. You know, if I get there, I get there. If I don't, I don't. I really don't feel like I belong because of the numbers, to be honest with you. They just, they're not, they're not up there where they're, you know, where they should be. But the biggest thing for me is that, you know, I made my dad proud. And that's all that matters to me.

• 6:54Ryan Clark?

  D-Bow, I love the fact that we're talking about your dad, but let's talk about the real OG in the family, your mama.

• 7:03Ryan Clark?

  The conversations that like, the short times I would be around her, or like when you would come in and talk about her, even like your siblings, bro, y'all family is different. Like, being at the bottom of the totem pole, as you were, right? And being the baby of everybody, having that many siblings, having parents that were like that, what was life like growing up? And did that sort of make you the way you are now? That Channing thinks that you weren't a pleasant human?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  So, it didn't really make me that way. I think my mom made me that way. Because my mom told me, you know, people are gonna take kindness for weakness. So I was never really an openly jolly person that you could just approach because, you know, they, they took that as weakness. And that's the way I lived my whole, you know, my whole life. Probably all the way up until I had kids, you know what I'm saying? So, me being the youngest, actually, I'm eight years removed from my nearest sibling. When I got into like my teenage years, I was, you know, I was almost like a, like an only child, you know? Um, but my other siblings, you know, they're all close together. So in the summers, you know, we're all together. It's six from my mom, seven from my dad. My mom and dad, they actually had me.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  So I'm the only one that is, that is from them. So, I gotta credit all that to my mom and dad, to be honest with you. And, and the persona that you see was just a makeup of, you know, just not, you know, trying to look like you were a happy, jolly person. So you didn't get, you know, took an advantage of.

• 8:36Ryan Clark?

  It's, it worked.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Did it?

• 8:38Ryan Clark?

  Like, yeah, if they told you not to be overtly kind and jolly, and if that's what you were going for, mission accomplished.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Listen, listen, my thing is this, I already have like a naturally mean look. So if I don't smile, they like... He pissed off, did it? No, I'm not pissed off, that's just my natural look. Like, like I said before, I'm not gonna walk around like this just so you feel comfortable, you know what I'm saying? No, it's like, I'mma, I'mma walk around like me, straight face, and something make me smile or laugh. If it don't, I won't, you know?

• 9:11Channing Crowder?

  But it did, it did hurt you, cuz Utah brought up Kent State. Ability like you shouldn't have been at Kent State. You should have been at a D1, Big D1. But, like, we know the story, you can read the story, that you thought you got in trouble and all of that, so...

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:26Channing Crowder?

  Bruh, that, that's not an act. That aggression that's inside of you is there. That snap, when that trigger goes off, I talk about the, um, Peasy. You and Peasy and different people on the Pittsburgh Steelers, he got a little trigger. It, it's a trigger in there that, do you, do you know it, or are you trying to?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 9:43Channing Crowder?

  Avoid knowing that you got that?

• 9:44Speaker 02

  It's not a...

• 9:45Ryan Clark?

  No point in me.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  You got a trigger too, don't make me put you out there.

• 9:49Ryan Clark?

  You do have a trigger.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Anyway, uh, like I was saying, it's not really a trigger.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Like, I can't be triggered. I can't be triggered, let me stop that.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  But I'm getting better at controlling my trigger. You right, I got a trigger. I was trying to deny it, I was trying to deny, swear I was.

• 10:10Ryan Clark?

  I respect that dude.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Self-awareness is really, is really coming, coming along right now, you know what I'm saying?

• 10:15Ryan Clark?

  You were never this self-aware before. Like, you really thought you were a nice guy for a long time. Like, there were times in the locker room, and you know Logan thinks you're the sweetest. Like, my daughter just thinks you're the most awesome. She's like, Uncle Debo this, I was like, actually, he's not nice to everybody like he is to you.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:32Ryan Clark?

  Right, but you FaceTimed me recently, uh, with Lil' James, you know what I mean? So I could follow him on Instagram, and you mentioned, like, you were a certain way until you had your boys. What was it, or what was the change that you felt in yourself, once you had James and Henry?

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Once I had my kids, I realized, you know, saying that, you know, I had heard, you're never gonna love your mom and dad, you know what I'm saying, as much as they love you. And, um, I didn't realize that, bruh, until, you know, I had my sons, dude. And I'm telling them dudes, like, man, I love y'all, like, y'all understand how much I love y'all, like, you'll never be able to love me as much as I love you. And I just wanted them... To know that and instead of it being by my actions, I wanted wanted to hear the words. So even, you know, now, the last thing, you know, my son say is, I love you, and I say, I love you more.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  And when I grew up, that wasn't something, you know, that we said, you know, I knew my parents loved me. But that wasn't something that, you know, we openly communicated. Here's the crazy thing. So it's like my first year at the Pittsburgh Steelers. And it's a dude, his name's McCray, and I'm hearing him talk to his family. And like, I love you, you know, duh, duh, duh, they're getting off the phone. I'm like, yeah, that's, that's cool. I'm like, you know what, let me, you know, let me try this, you know what I'm saying? So I calls, you know, I call, talking to my dad, whatever, blah, blah, blah, you know, we talking about whatever, duh, duh, duh. Get off the phone. All right, Dad, I love you. Talk to you later. All right. He hang up the phone, right?

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Two minutes later, the phone rings. It's my mom. Hey, what you doing? I ain't doing nothing. What's going on? You all right? What you mean? Am I all right? Well, your dad said he talked to you and you, you okay? I'm like, yeah, well, he said, uh, he said, I love you. I mean, ain't nothing going on. Like, that was a, you know, I'm about to go do something, something bad, you know what I'm saying?

• 12:36Speaker 03

  They thought you were signing off.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  I'm signing off, or I'm about to go sign somebody else off, you know what I'm saying? So, you know, and, and, and, you know, that's not something that I want to have, you know, you know, with my kids. So, you know, even towards the last few years of my dad's, like, we were more, you know, communicative about, you know, saying I love you. And even now with my mom, I'm way, way, way more, um, you know, communicative about, you know, saying I love you. So.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  That is awesome.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what, um.

• 13:04Fred Taylor?

  Most people who see this, they'll see the tough Pittsburgh Steelers linebacker. What I want to try and tap into is that, that soft spot. You're talking about your kids. I know we all have soft spots for our children. Who was, what was James Harrison like as a kid?

• 13:21Speaker 02

  As a kid?

• 13:21Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, before all of the toughness and like, how were you as a, as a child?

• 13:25Speaker 02

  I'm trying to tell you, I, I, I came out, I, I came out that thing with my fist balled up, man. I'm trying to tell you, that's my first baby picture, my fist balled up. Honestly dude, it just started from the time, you know, I was able to understand, you know, and remember, it's just, you know, don't take no shit. You know, people take kindness for weakness, so don't be one of those people that's walking around smiling, cheesing, laughing, you know what I'm saying? It was just ingrained in me dude, like, long, long time. I'm not gonna say that it didn't, you know, serve me well, especially in football. I mean, sometimes I leaned into it, you know what I'm saying, a little bit?

• 14:07Speaker 02

  But it was just, that was just my natural approach. I was just straight faced in everything that I did. Even when I was younger, you know, elementary, like, you know, what's up with James Howard? Like, no, that's just, you know, him. If he's not happy, he's not gonna smile, you know? If it's not something that's, you know, he's gonna laugh, he's gonna have, that's just him, he gonna have a straight face.

• 14:28Fred Taylor?

  Right, and the story about your mother not wanting you to play football early on? How did that kinda transpire? How'd you convince her to change her mind?

• 14:38Speaker 02

  I didn't convince her, my daddy convinced her to do that. She thought I was gonna get hurt, so she didn't want her baby to get hurt. So, what she was fearful of was actually happening to other people's babies, and...

• 14:52Ryan Clark?

  Because of you?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  You too.

• 14:56Ryan Clark?

  I'm saying as a baby, like, were you hurting, did you hurt people?

• 14:59Speaker 02

  I didn't hurt people as a baby. Maybe it was like a teenager, like, high school?

• 15:05Ryan Clark?

  You started playing football, I'm saying.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, my legs were skinny at the time, so they beefed up a little bit, and she was, you know, she was just worried about her son, you know what I'm saying? And I was, I can understand that, you know? I don't understand that, cuz I'm not worried about mine. I'm worried about him, but I ain't worried about him getting hurt. Sometimes you gotta get hurt to develop, so, you know?

• 15:26Ryan Clark?

  Devo, like, everybody sees the finished product, right? So, 2008, 2009, you're the best defensive player in the world. To me, still, the greatest defensive play individually and team-wise in Super Bowl history. The 100-yard interception return, but nobody talks about the amount of times you were cut. Nobody talks about playing football in a different country. What was there ever a moment where you thought to yourself during those times of being cut, going back Baltimore, Pittsburgh, all those things that you thought to yourself, this might not be for me?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Never get too high with the highs, never get too low with the lows, dig the ball again, right? It was 2003, I had just came back from NFL Europe, I was cut by Baltimore, and I'm sitting there and I'm like, you know, I've been basically two years, cut five, four or five times, whatever it is, back and forth, back and forth, then did NFL Europe, all that, and I'm like, you know what? Maybe this is not for me. I'm gonna sit here, I'm gonna wait until, I'm gonna give it till, you know, training camp starts, and I said, if I don't get picked up, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna get a regular job like everybody else, work my 40, 50 hours a week, call it a day, and you know, be good with it.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  And Clark Hagens breaks his hand in a weightlifting accident, and I get picked up. And my first two years, to be 100% honest, I didn't know what I was doing. I couldn't, I couldn't learn the defense, you know, dig the ball's defense, dude, I'm coming in and it's, it's, you know, they're doing motions, you know, you, the true dig the ball fire zone, you, one motion can take you from blitzing free to covering somebody man all by yourself, you know what I'm saying? And it was times where I would just stop in the middle of the play. Dude, I'm, I'm, honestly, dude, like, one time I'm sitting there and they started motioning,

• 17:29Speaker 02

  and they did it on, like, they did it on purpose in practice, just trying to make sure we knew, dude, boom, boom, boom, dude, I'm like, hey, I don't know what I'm doing, get me out of here. In the middle of the play, I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing, get me out of here. Like, so.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  At that point in time, you know, I was just like, if it don't work, then you know, I'mma, I'mma give it up. But, once I got in, I'm like, I'mma sit down, I'mma take the time, I'mma be a true professional, I'mma have to learn this defense, I'mma have to sit here and study and understand it. And the first thing I did, I'm like, yo, I just need to know what the hell I'm doing. And I need to know what the hell I'm doing on everything. And that one nuance that you know, every time you get that maybe four, you know, quads or whatever, what you gotta do in that situation, or whatever it may be. And I just went from there. And I learned inside linebacker too. So, that, you know, preseason, I started playing both outsides, and I was playing both

• 18:29Speaker 02

  insides. And I was doing decent on special teams. So, I really just sat down, man, I put my bed on the floor, dude. I, I didn't have nothing but a bed on the floor and a desk, no TV, nothing. And everything I did was just dedicated. I said, if I'mma actually not make it, it's gonna be because, like, I don't have the actual skills, not because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. And, one thing led to another, and, you know, we're, we're where we're at now, I guess.

• 18:58Channing Crowder?

  I'm with RC, like, potential Hall of Famer, like, those type stuff, the, everybody knows about the plays you made. When did you understand that, oh, I'm not just, I'm not just a NFL player, I'm one of the faces of the league right now?

• 19:12Speaker 02

  I think after they tried to make us the poster board of a player safety, to be honest with you. Before that, I'm just out there trying to do my best, so I don't let my teammate down, so I don't let Dick LeBeau's defense down, dude. And, you know, everything else came for itself. Like I said, the first year, I'm learning what I'm doing. The next year, I'm trying to figure out what my corner is doing. Year after that, I'm trying to figure out what my, what my D lineman is doing, what my linebacker behind me is doing. Like, if I know, once I knew exactly what I was doing, each year, I'm, I'm trying to spread out further to see what the other guy is doing. Because, if I don't have anything in my zone, there's something I could do to better help my inside linebacker to help cover his zone, or to help my corner to help cover his zone, or if my safety is rolled down, whatever that may be. So, it was just an advancement of, you know what?

• 19:56Speaker 02

  I can't know what I'm doing better, but I can learn what somebody else is doing to better help me, the defense, the whole team. Yeah.

• 20:04Ryan Clark?

  During the 2008 year, right, we, when you start to run... Troy's balling out, like everybody defensively, we were in total sync. At what point did you start to look at that year and say to yourself, okay, I know he can't block me. I know he can't block me and just start to understand how you can eat these dudes up each and every game?

• 20:26Speaker 02

  In my head, I didn't think that, like as far as like, he can't block me, he can't block me. I use something different. I'm like, he actually in front of me trying to block me. I want to destroy him. The fact that you sold up to the game was disrespectful to me. Like, oh yeah, yeah, it made me want to try and, try and hurt you and I wanted to do everything to, to prove and show that you shouldn't have been out here. Like, it was never, oh, he can't block me. It's like, yo, he came out here and he really think he could block. Like, I needed something, I needed something negative. I didn't have, like, don't pat me on my back. Like, I'm there serious. Like, when we get into the meetings, don't show me what I did great. I know what I did wrong. Show that, show that to everybody. Let everybody see that. Because this going to motivate me and drive me to want to, I can't never make that mistake again.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't never want to mess up. Like, everything that I like, dude, even if I was to get like knocked down, even though I'm like getting a double and dude come through and run through dude, I'm trying to do everything the next time I see him to take his head off. Like, everything, like, so, the, the, again, like, the, I'm not the person that, oh, you could do it, you could, no. Tell me what I can't do. Because that's what I've been told my whole life and I proved you wrong. So that's what I'm trying to do. I want to hear what you think I can't do. I want to, oh yeah, I need all that.

• 21:39Ryan Clark?

  Could you play against your friends? Because you played, you played a decade.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  My friends, I'm trying to, I'm trying to do you the worst because I want to be able to talk to you in the off season. Josh Cribbs was my college quarterback. Night and night. Yes. I talked to him after the game. My mama hugged him and all that. Yeah. Like, I'm trying to do you the worst because I need to be able to talk to you later.

• 22:02Channing Crowder?

  And fine, you'll knock somebody to sleep and then y'all go have dinner.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Oh, I do all that. I'm trying to do all that, honestly. Why wouldn't you?

• 22:11Channing Crowder?

  No, no, no. I talked about it with Marshawn. Marshawn was in Buffalo, Marshawn, so we played against each other. We boys. And before the game, be like, man, I'mma fuck you up. He be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you ain't got a chance.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 22:22Channing Crowder?

  But you, it seemed like yours a little more, a little more emotionally hateful than mine was.

• 22:28Ryan Clark?

  It's very deliberate.

• 22:30Speaker 03

  Very, yeah. You on the other side. Like, what are you talking about? Like, I wanna, I wanna do my best to make sure that you don't, I don't wanna injure you. I don't want you out for the season, but I wanna do my best to make sure you don't finish that game. That's it.

• 22:43Ryan Clark?

  Debo, you remember when Coach Tomlin blamed me for your fines that time? When you hit up?

• 22:50Speaker 03

  He started doing the Indian dance.

• 22:53Speaker 03

  I ain't lying, dawg.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  And that's how I got fined. What happened?

• 23:00Ryan Clark?

  Man, so the same game he talking about with Cleveland, right? Josh Cribbs killed us one year with the Wildcat. So they run Wildcat away from Debo.

• 23:13Ryan Clark?

  He done, like, it's a wrap. If he was playing in today's ball, he don't play for a month. Right? They put him on IR. So then, Massa Quai, he run a low crosser. Debo was like curled flat. And I think it was Colt McCoy.

• 23:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:28Ryan Clark?

  Just, just.

• 23:29Speaker 03

  Laid him up.

• 23:29Ryan Clark?

  Set him up. And so with Debo hitting, God forgive me, because I was wrong now looking back at it. He shut his lights off first, but not his body. So his body was still going through the motions. So he just fell to his knees. And so like, it was a second, he was just on his knees, right there in front of me. And as he starts falling, I start spinning around in a circle. I started spinning around in a circle.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  Picking his legs and everything.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Everything. I'm literally, I didn't hit him, I seen him fall and I'm like, yo, let me just walk away and turn away. And I see this dude doing the rain dance.

• 24:09Ryan Clark?

  Hey, Wednesday meeting, Coach Tyler goes, RC, we can't dance around dead bodies.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:16Ryan Clark?

  Really?

• 24:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, dude.

• 24:18Ryan Clark?

  What'd they hit you for?

• 24:19Fred Taylor?

  Seventy-five.

• 24:20Ryan Clark?

  Racks?

• 24:21Fred Taylor?

  Mm-hmm, a thousand, seventy-five thousand.

• 24:24Ryan Clark?

  He gave you half? No, I got forty that day, that week, so.

• 24:28Channing Crowder?

  Y'all was getting fined, fine.

• 24:30Fred Taylor?

  Fine, see, but, that, that, that's the thing too, I mean, um, you know, people try and paint the picture of, especially that 08, the 08 still is defense as nasty, you guys kind of pioneered a lot of the rule changes and all that different stuff. I don't think it was nasty, I just think y'all played ball the right way, y'all ruled to the ball, y'all had some head hunters, some warriors. I mean, obviously, I know you guys well, just from the, the multiple times playing against each other, but as nasty as the perception of you guys were, that, that ESPN, the magazine cover, that was nasty.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  They lied on that. If you run, listen, man, I want you to run back that play, look at that play. They actually elevated me two, three feet off the ground. When I hit him, my toes barely came up this high. When they reset that, they, I'll go, go look at the picture, go look at the live view. My toes come off the ground like this, they elevated me like this. It's no way I could have hit him like that. He was already crouching, I was just trying to make sure he was trying to let go of the ball, dude. I didn't even hit him with no more than make like maybe thirty, forty percent, man.

• 25:41Ryan Clark?

  Devo, is this, is this what you said on the appeal?

• 25:44Speaker 03

  Dude, that's what I was trying to tell him, they ain't wasn't listening. Listen, listen, I, I hate to say this right now because I'm saying, man, but back then, if I had knew they were gonna find me seventy-five thousand dollars, dude, I would have did everything I could to try and make that the most grotesque hit that the NFL had ever seen because I only gave him thirty to forty percent.

• 26:07Fred Taylor?

  So it was AI?

• 26:09Speaker 03

  Oh, yes. You can look at the, dude, the magazine, they literally lifted me like two, three feet off the ground to make it look like I launched into him. Like, I literally was like, yo, just let the ball go. Like, I'm looking at Cole, I'm seeing him running across. I'm like, why is he about to throw in the ball? Let me go over here, give him a little thump, so he don't catch it. And, like, that was it. And I ain't even realized I was gonna hit him that hard. And then when he did the, he went limp like that. I'm like, alright, let me turn around. Maybe they ain't, you know, they didn't even throw a flag, did they?

• 26:39Ryan Clark?

  I think they did. I started dancing.

• 26:41Speaker 03

  Bass started dancing.

• 26:43Fred Taylor?

  See what? That, that goes to show you. If you go back and look at the magazine club I'm talking about.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:50Fred Taylor?

  He's doing the prison pose. Him and Troy, like this, in the front.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  Oh, he, he talks about.

• 26:56Fred Taylor?

  The ESPN magazine. That's what I'm talking about.

• 26:59Speaker 03

  Oh, that's different.

• 27:00Fred Taylor?

  I know, but no, no, I'm just saying, I'm just highlighting that defense, all of the amazing players that were on your defense. And him and Troy like this, in the front, the hoodlums, in the front.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  You know what's so crazy? He could have been in the front like a hoodlum Troy.

• 27:16Speaker 03

  That ain't Troy, man. That baby Jesus. What you talking about? I know. Man, you can't, can't put that on Troy.

• 27:23Fred Taylor?

  The point I'm trying to get to after all of that, give us some, the craziest, the craziest locker room story that you can remember. Like, I wanna get inside y'all locker room. Like, I actually really wanted to be in there when I was a free agent, but bring me to the locker room.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  We ain't really, I ain't got no crazy stories, you know what I'm saying, that I can think of in the locker room. So, I'm all devoid of, um, crazy stories. It's not really anything crazy that happened. What'd you think, right?

• 27:51Ryan Clark?

  Like, honestly, bro, we're pretty professional. Like, like, to be truthful, like, we didn't really have a lot of issues. Boys ain't fight, boys ain't beef. Like, other than AB.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  We got along.

• 28:00Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, other than when AB clicked out, like, that was it.

• 28:03Speaker 03

  Was it a bunch of alpha males, or was it a certain way y'all play ball?

• 28:08Ryan Clark?

  I would say this, I would, and, and he could speak to it as well. Like, there was a feeling of earning your stripes in that locker room that I never felt anywhere else. And you didn't necessarily seek the approval or the validation of the people who you thought were Steelers already, but until you got that validation, you knew they didn't respect you in that way. And so it was probably, you know, I told a story, like, they barely talked to me. Like Troy talked to me a lot, TC was my dog, but like everybody else. Chris Henry, God rest his soul, New Orleans boy, he run a skinny against, we playing Cincinnati, and I fire on him.

• 28:52Ryan Clark?

  Ball pops up, Ike picks it off, so I'm celebrating. He runs out to the middle of the field, and he was like, now you a fucking Steeler. You know what I mean? And like, and to me, like, before that moment, I didn't realize I needed that. Right? Like, before that moment, like, I got the jersey, I've been at practice, I'm starting, you know what I mean? Clearly, my check says Mr. Rooney. Clearly, I'm a Steeler, but it was like, that moment, when he said that to me, I was like, okay, finally. You know what I mean? I think that's what was great about that locker room. Fellas, New Year's resolutions are over, right? If you didn't want to be fat anymore, that's probably gone.

• 29:36Ryan Clark?

  If you wanted to, if you wanted to tap into your mindset, that's probably going too. But you can still get up on your financial wellness with Rocket Money. It's a personal finance app, and what I love about it is it organizes all my subscriptions into one. Because you know, man, as we traveling, I'm buying these subscriptions to study and do different things, and it organizes and tells me what's available, what I'm using, and gets rid of the things I don't want no more.

• 29:56Channing Crowder?

  Thing I like about Rocket Money is that they will go to those subscriptions, and they will argue for you with the customer service. I don't like to sit on the phone with that little elevator music playing. Rocket Money will go in, they will negotiate with them, they will get you out of that, and then sometimes you can even get a little money back. Like, who don't want a little money back?

• 30:10Fred Taylor?

  Hey, real freedom starts with financial freedom. Make sure you grab Rocket Money. What it does for me is it notifies me every time a dollar is moved. So I love Rocket Money. Do not let your subscriptions outlast your paychecks. Go grab Rocket Money.

• 30:22Ryan Clark?

  Rocket Money has helped over 5 million users save up to $500 million in canceled subscriptions, helping some members get up to $740 a year in savings when they're using the app's premium features.

• 30:33Channing Crowder?

  Man, you can cancel those unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster, and Rocket Money got your back on all of that.

• 30:38Fred Taylor?

  Hey, just go to rocketmoney.com/pivot today. That's rocketmoney.com/pivot.

• 30:43Ryan Clark?

  With you though, Debo, you were a great special teams player before you became a starter. Clark was there, Pezy was there. It was in that position, the outside linebacker position at Pittsburgh is a wait your turn position.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, I was five years before I started.

• 31:00Ryan Clark?

  About to say, did you, was it hard in any way to wait your turn knowing that you could be what you ended up being?

• 31:07Speaker 02

  I can't say that I knew I was going to be that, you know what I'm saying? It was, like you said, it was just wait your turn. At that time, I knew those guys was better than me. You know, at least that's, you know, that's how I felt. And I don't, I don't have a problem earning it, whatever that time, you know, timeframe may be. And, um, you know, it just, it just happened to be five years.

• 31:26Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  So, you know, when I got the opportunity, you know, to get in there, you know, I, I did everything I could to, you know, to grasp and hold on to it, you know, you know, considering my first year, the first thing they did was they, you know, people don't realize is they drafted one and two outside linebackers. You know, as soon as Mike got there, he went one and two. They forget that Lawrence Timmons was actually an outside linebacker. They went Lawrence Timmons and Woodley. And the crazy thing is, I was like behind Timmons for a hot minute. Like, it was like, oh, here you go. But he ended up getting hurt. I took off from there and when they, you know, when he finally got back, they ended up just moving him inside. So, you know, from the time... You know, like I said, I need that. Go ahead, draft.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  I mean, I could probably name off every linebacker they drafted while I was there. To be 100% honest with you, but I won't do it. But that was me. I need that chip on my shoulder. I want you to draft a linebacker. I want you to tell me what I can't do. I'm going to go out there and do everything I can to prove you wrong. So motivation. Don't tap me on my shoulder. Don't pat me on my back. I'm not going to slap myself on the back either, you know. I ain't going to break my arm and pat myself on the back. And I think that's what made it to where like each year I was like, yo, I'm coming in to prove myself. Everyone else is like, you know, you know, I got this or that. I'm going to make, nah, I'm coming in there like, yo, I gotta make the team.

• 32:51Ryan Clark?

  Dibbo, how hard was it after reaching those heights for your back to take away some of the things that made you special?

• 32:59Speaker 02

  I don't think it took away some of the things that made me special. I think it made me have to focus on other things that could help keep me special. Yeah, the bounce, you know, that stuff like that, that was going to. But the one thing I could keep going and get better with was my strength, you know. I got lucky, to be 100% honest, that you introduced me to Ian, bruh. Like, without Ian, I don't know if I would have been able to play, you know, an additional, what, five, six years after that, without him, you know, helping me train, you know, getting my body right, soft tissue work, all that stuff.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  His knowledge of what actually needed to be done so that I could get back to the level of play that, you know, I was accustomed to. And just my strength gains, dude, just out of control. If it wasn't for you, dude, I'd have probably been done a long time ago.

• 33:59Channing Crowder?

  And, bro, you bring up Dick LeBeau. Love Mike T. We done been up there. We go to camp every year. Ryan has an end with the Steelers.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:08Channing Crowder?

  But we were talking about like the Hall of Fame earlier. You were like, my numbers don't see that. Could you have been somewhere else where you would have had another 20 sacks? You've been around 100, you would have had those numbers. Did the system create you?

• 34:23Ryan Clark?

  And you had to work through it, you know what I'm saying?

• 34:25Speaker 02

  I played in a great system, you know.

• 34:27Ryan Clark?

  But you in Arizona, you might just be showing out for 15 years.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  I don't know, man. You know, everything happens for a reason, you know. There's no mistakes, you know, God put you where you're supposed to be and, and things that happen, happen. Without Dick LeBeau, there is no James Harrison.

• 34:42Ryan Clark?

  Real talk.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  You know, without Keith Butler, my linebackers coach, there's no James Harrison. He developed me, you know what I'm saying? He, he, he made me into, you know, the player that, that I became and, and Coach LeBeau, without his wisdom and defense, he, uh, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be here. That defense that I thought was so hard to learn was actually tailor made and built for me. You know, like you said, back then, we dropped a lot more. So yeah, that could add to, you know, that could add to the numbers, you know. Sometimes you had to, you know, you had to cover a receiver number two. And I'm looking back like, yo, RC.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  You see?

• 35:19Ryan Clark?

  I got you. Help! He like, this ain't what I do.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  This ain't what I do, I'm a trailing. Hey, I ain't gonna let him get too far away.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  I'm gonna need something over the top.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  You know, that, that added to it. And then, you know, the combination of, you know, I didn't start for my first five years. When it come down to it, I think, I think I only started six seasons. Then it was, you know, spots starting here and there after I came back out of retirement. Four games, one season, a game, one season, six or seven another season. So like the, you know, the numbers aren't on any que. And, and back then, you know, it was, you know, you had to actually, it was a 50 50 chance that you were rushing and dropping. So you didn't get, you know, you didn't get a pure rush. And that, that time that you would have that pure rush, it may be a run. So like, I understand that, but when it comes down to it, man, and people look at it and, and, and they doing the eyeball test, it don't match.

• 36:17Ryan Clark?

  Why you pick Cincinnati and New England though? Like, there was 29 other teams.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  They picked me.

• 36:24Ryan Clark?

  We already talk about like the culture and the way that we embrace each other and the brotherhood. And you picked Belichick? Like he was the one person that we couldn't beat.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Belichick picked me. That's the difference. I don't even know if I told you this. I knew they weren't gonna play me, okay? But like you said, the brotherhood, the loyalty.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  I'm sitting there in New England.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  Peasy could tell you that's I call Peasy. I say, Peasy, I'm sitting here in New England. I say,

• 36:55Speaker 02

  be honest with you, man, I really don't want to sign. I say, hit Mike T.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Tell him I'm here, I'm willing to come back, just, whatever, if that's what you want to do.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Peasy do his thing, nothing, right?

• 37:11Speaker 02

  And the whole time before he even gets back to me, I'm sitting there and I'm like,

• 37:16Speaker 02

  I go back to Pittsburgh, I know I'm not gonna play.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  I'm gonna be sitting there doing nothing.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  If we win the championship, I got something that I didn't even earn.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  And before,

• 37:31Speaker 02

  you know, I'm going back and forth, just back and forth. And I'm like, you know what? I want to play. Like, you can, you know, you can say, oh, you know, TJ and Bud were better than me, you know, they beat me out or whatever, but I didn't even practice in training camp. So, I mean, at that point in time, do I believe that both of them were better than me? No.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  And I'm like, you know what? I'm signing. I don't even need to wait for him to come back. Because me going back there, I'm gonna be back in the same position, pissed off, mad, that I'm just sitting there when I told you, week one at Cleveland, hey, I see what y'all doing. Y'all want to play your younger players, dah dah dah. Just release me, let me go, so I can go play out, you know, this year, you know, somewhere else, whatever. No, no, no, no, no, we good, we got a plan for you, we got a plan for you, we got a plan. Like, you ain't got a plan. Your plan is just to hold me here just in case something happens, that you got the backup. But then when the numbers hit, and you're like, oh, we're good, then you ended up releasing me anyway. And here's the crazy part, bruh.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  So they released me, what was it, Christmas? Was it Christmas they released me? The day before, I'm talking to Mike, I'm like, hey, why don't you just let me stay home? You're not gonna dress me, you ain't gonna play me. Just let me stay home before y'all go on this trip. No, no, no, no, no, no, I can't do that. And then you release me the next day.

• 38:56Ryan Clark?

  Because you're back around. How do you feel about Mike T now in some of those experiences?

• 39:02Speaker 02

  I understand the business of it, but my thing, to be 100% with you, is I need honesty, dude. 100, I don't care if it's, like he says, you ask a tough question, I'm gonna give you a tough answer. I've been asking tough questions. I was asking tough questions then, but I wasn't getting the tough answers. I was getting the, whatever they thought would, would keep me from doing whatever. And at the end of it, I'm like, just, dude, tell me the truth. Like, if that's what you want to do, cool. No, no, no, we got a plan. You ain't got a plan, dude. Your plan is, if your plan is to hold me here and wait till, till whatever, say that. I'm willing to deal with that, if you say that. But you're telling me you got a plan that it's gonna be, oh no, we're gonna use this for that and whatever it may be.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  And like I said, the, the big issue for me was when Tennessee game. I done practiced all week, bruh. I'm thinking I'm getting snaps doing everything. I go in, I don't even have my stuff in, I'm a no communication, non-dressed, nothing in my locker. I told them right then and there. I said, if I ain't playing, I ain't staying. And I left and went home.

• 40:12Channing Crowder?

  Did you, can you look back now and admit that your play, your productivity was dropping? And all that stuff, because all Ryan speaks about it, where he couldn't break on the seven. And that's when he was like, I can't break on this seven like he used to break on the seven.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  I understand, I understand what you're saying. That my productivity, but I still believe my productivity was better than theirs at that time.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  I mean, you could go back, I think the last game I actually played was Kansas City. Look at Kansas City, you could go back to Kansas City. I think I might've got, no, I know I got 15 snaps. And I believe they may have got 40, 45 snaps.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  But my stats was the same as theirs with 15 snaps with their stats together. I never saw another snap after that, though.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  I never even dressed again after.

• 41:04Fred Taylor?

  That's, that's the nature of the business. Obviously, I could see it.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:08Fred Taylor?

  Something similar to me having.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  I don't have a problem, but be honest with me.

• 41:11Fred Taylor?

  Right, no, that's, that's how it should be.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:14Fred Taylor?

  Right? That's what they owe you, especially all the things you've done for that organization.

• 41:19Channing Crowder?

  Man, you know what? I used to live in the grocery store. Factor done cut it off. I know the, the fruit lady's gonna be hot with me for not showing up because Factor has delicious food right there already made for you. I spend time at home now.

• 41:30Ryan Clark?

  Well, the thing is, you used to go to the grocery store to talk to the people, not actually buy the groceries. So Factor may not have cut into that, but for me, I never had the time to go to the grocery store. So now, I don't have a hassle. And also too, these meals are never frozen. They're always delivered fresh and they have the best products and ingredients to make them.

• 41:45Fred Taylor?

  You know, sometimes we can go fast food and feel guilty about it. But you don't have to worry about feeling guilty because you know you're getting fabulous, amazing food, some, some good stuff, some good nutritional stuff. That's why I choose Factor.

• 41:56Ryan Clark?

  Head to factoring75.com or click the link below and use code 50PIVOT to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first Factor box.

• 42:02Channing Crowder?

  That's code 50PIVOT at factoring75.com to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box.

• 42:09Fred Taylor?

  I want to go back to something you said earlier. As physical as you play the game, you know, we, we're all out here. We have things that are lingering from our time in, in the NFL. You mentioned being depressed after having a surgery and not being able to do and move like the way you wanted to. How's, how's your mental?

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm good now, baby. Be honest with you, when I can't work out,

• 42:33Speaker 02

  I am the worst person to be around. Like, I'm snapping, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm popping off on anything. You know, it could be, it could be a piece of paper on the floor and now the house dirty as hell, which I'll, you know what I'm saying? I'm, I'm popping off, you know? You know, for me, at that point in time.

• 42:55Speaker 03

  It was more, I wouldn't even call it depression, to be honest. Like, depression is a deep, dark thing, you know what I'm saying? I, I, I think it was self pity.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 43:06Speaker 03

  Self pity, you know? And I'm like, you know what? And excuses, give myself a reason to just eat like, eat like shit. You know what I'm saying? You know, I can't, I can't do this, I can't do that.

• 43:19Ryan Clark?

  Might as well be fat.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  Right, I might as well, I might as well eat a dessert with every meal that I have, you know what I'm saying? And you do that for, you know, six weeks, by the end of, you know, one week, you have a eight hundred, nine, nine hundred thousand calorie dessert with every meal, that's three thousand a day, you know? End of the week, that's twenty one hundred, next thing you know, you done gained two pounds that week. You put that into six, you know, six weeks of work. You up twenty some pounds when the three months over with. That's what happened. Stomach touching your leg when you go to tie your shoes, stomach calling you fat.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Wind it.

• 43:57Speaker 03

  I ain't even wind it, because I couldn't even do nothing. Listen, when I started back trying to walk on the trail with it, man, it was twenty minutes, my calves was on fire. It wasn't even on the incline, it was like at two and a half miles an hour, I was bad.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 44:08Speaker 03

  I was bad, I was disgusted with myself. Yeah.

• 44:11Ryan Clark?

  Devo, your, your, your boys, um, you know, obviously you came out a while back, you was like, hey man, ain't no participation trophies in the Harrison household. And, like, your boys are different. I'm not going to comment on your level of attractiveness, but they're some handsome jokers, bro. They still got all the hair, you know what I mean? They red bones like Chan, you know what I'm saying? As they get older, just call James, as they get older, what is?

• 44:45Speaker 03

  That's like the pot calling the kettle black.

• 44:48Ryan Clark?

  I didn't call you ugly. I said I'm not gonna speak on your level of attractiveness.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Let's go, man, come on, man.

• 44:54Ryan Clark?

  What's that? You know what I mean? Like, when y'all called that day, man, like, y'all relationship, way you and James talk, what is James, the football father, if father-like now with his boys?

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Man, this, to be honest with you, it's open. 100% open communication. This gonna sound horrible again, but I think he would say the same thing. I think the best thing that happened to James was he, uh... He blew his SC joint. And he messed up his ankle, so he had to get surgery on his ankle. So he had to miss half of his sophomore year and all of his junior year. And that, I think, really made him understand and believe everything I was trying to tell him. I'm like, dude, you gotta, you gotta work at this. It's just not gonna happen. You gotta put the time in, you gotta do everything, and that doesn't guarantee that you're gonna make it. And with him having that happen, he's like, oh, man, this could be gone. Like, in a snap of eye, like, that plan A, I gotta really have a plan B, N C.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  And with him getting hurt, now he's like, you know what? I gotta, I gotta eat right. I gotta, you know, I gotta train right. I gotta do the things to make sure I recover my body. Like, you know, he gets in the cold plunge, you know, he does acupuncture, he does straight needling. Yeah. And now he's eating super clean. So from that time, he had his surgery in July, all the way up until we started working back out or were able to do upper body stuff in, uh, September or October, he dropped from 190 to 155.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  So he done took the 155, though, and bounced it all the way back up to 192. And he's trying to get a little harder than that, but he's eating clean. He stopped eating junk. He stopped eating sugar. He's down to four percent body fat. Like, yeah, he's doing everything that's necessary. And I think, you know, that that process of him having to go through that was the best thing that ever happened to him. And like I said, I think he would, he would, he would say the same thing too. And right now, you know, he's trying to get his younger brother. He's trying to get Henry. He's like, Henry, brother, you gotta stop, you know. Henry, Henry likes the sweets. He likes to have a little, well, a lot, a lot here and there. And he's trying to, you know, push him that way. And I'm like, James, you can't want it more for him than he wants it for himself.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  I said, look how long it took you. Look what had to happen before, you know, you realize that what I was telling you was something you need to do. I said, until he wants it for himself, dude, you're, you're not going to be able to talk him, you know, into doing all the, the hard stuff. It's not the, you know, you can hold him down and he'll hold him down in the cold tub and make him sit there, you know, for, you know, three to five minutes or whatever. But, you know, the things when you're not there, you, you can't, you can't want it more for him than he does for himself. And the, the relationship, you know, like, like I said with my boys, I don't, I don't really sugarcoat anything. I, I use my words, like I would talk to y'all, I talk to them. I think that's the reason I can't coach kids because I'm going to talk to your kids and coach them the same way I would coach mine, you know?

• 48:05Speaker 02

  So, over the course of the last probably two, three years, it's just, it's a totally different, you know.

• 48:11Ryan Clark?

  They come to you for girl advice?

• 48:14Speaker 02

  So, I ain't even know if I'm allowed to talk on them. I ain't gonna talk on them. I ain't allowed to, I probably ain't, no.

• 48:20Ryan Clark?

  Wait, so you saying, you saying you're not allowed to talk about what they're doing with young, like their dating lives? Or, I just want to know, like, what's it? Give me an example of a conversation you and the boys have had about girls. Like what?

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Hold up, listen.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  Dad, what's your body count?

• 48:41Ryan Clark?

  The boys asked you what your body count was? Did you answer them? You told the truth? And they thought you was a little whore, didn't they? Why would you call that man a whore? What'd they say? Devo, when you gave him the number, Devo, what'd they say?

• 48:57Speaker 03

  It was James, so... We're going through a whole, it's a whole, you know... He done went through a little, little heartbreak, whatever, you know? I ain't, I ain't gonna talk about it, anyway. He said, "Dad, you know, how long this feeling lasts," all that, you know, dah dah dah dah. I'm like, "Man, it's gonna last a minute, it's the first time," you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, let's go... And I'm telling him, you know, so-and-so, I don't wanna speak her name, but I got her name. So-and-so, she broke my heart at this point and dah dah dah dah. I said, "From that point forward, everybody else had to deal with the destruction," you know what I'm saying? So, you know, my, you know, he was, uh... He was asking, you know, other questions, all that, and at that point in time, my son was on the...

• 49:42Speaker 03

  You know, he wanted to, he wanted to do everything, you know, the correct way, you know? He wanted to wait till marriage and all that other stuff, and dah dah dah, and I'm like, I'm applauding that, you know, that's great. And then, um, after that happened, he went off the rails, like I did with... The thought process just got lost, and then he started, you know, he was asking me stuff, and then he was like, "Dad, you know, what's your body count?" I'm like,

• 50:10Speaker 03

  "Do I tell him the truth? Do I lie to him?" And I'm like, "I'm afraid he might ask his mama."

• 50:18Speaker 03

  And I know she know the truth, so I can't lie to him.

• 50:22Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  I tell him. So... He like, "What?" I'm like, "Yeah." Like, I was, I was hurt in a bad way. Like, for a long time. It was, I was raised a different way. Like, I wasn't raised, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't raised like you were raised, son. You, you know, you got your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I didn't, I didn't have that then, you know? We didn't go to church like that, I didn't understand the representation of all, you know? I'm living by a whole different set of rules at that time, you know? I didn't know.

• 50:57Speaker 03

  You know, I gotta tell, I gotta tell his mama, I'm like, "Hey, you asked me the question."

• 51:03Speaker 03

  And I, you telling the truth, yeah, why you do that? I said, I didn't know he was gonna ask you before I got to you, I ain't, she want me to do? So, he say, um, he say, he, he tell, he tell, he tell, man, he say, "Yeah, I think I'm gonna be like dad." "Just not that bad."

• 51:26Speaker 03

  So I was like, she's like, "He said he's gonna be like you, just not that bad." "She want me to do."

• 51:33Channing Crowder?

  Can we hit the number?

• 51:34Speaker 03

  Uh-uh.

• 51:36Channing Crowder?

  You know what? For the world.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Uh-uh.

• 51:39Channing Crowder?

  Divo.

• 51:40Speaker 03

  We don't need the number.

• 51:42Channing Crowder?

  The, the, the alpha testosterone-filled masculine male. Does your big ass, can you do candles, do you lay down roses, do you? Are you still romantic because you don't see? I don't see no romance, I don't see no romance in you.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  It depends, I ain't gonna lie to you, it depends. Catch me in the right state of mind?

• 52:03Speaker 03

  Um, you know, it's, it's a possibility.

• 52:06Channing Crowder?

  Cause I see you as National Geographic.

• 52:09Speaker 03

  No.

• 52:09Channing Crowder?

  Only one way.

• 52:11Speaker 03

  Bunny hopping on him like Ving Rhames.

• 52:16Channing Crowder?

  Hey, you gotta be strong to do that though, dawg.

• 52:18Speaker 03

  No question.

• 52:19Channing Crowder?

  And flexible.

• 52:21Speaker 03

  I'm flexible.

• 52:22Channing Crowder?

  But.

• 52:22Speaker 03

  I'm good.

• 52:23Channing Crowder?

  He said what?

• 52:24Speaker 03

  I'm good, I'm flexible, I'm good.

• 52:26Channing Crowder?

  To that point, man, that, that, that persona of you, go be joking about it all show, that persona of you is this, you know, this male male, this, you know, silverback.

• 52:35Speaker 03

  I'm a man's man.

• 52:36Channing Crowder?

  You a man's man, you, you run, you, you know, you got your territory and all. Is that advantageous in real life? Football is, is extremely advantageous.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  I'm not gonna lie to you, man, real life is more, is more, is more, is more advantageous in real life than it is football. At least in football, you got some dudes that, you know, I feel like are gonna try and fight the fact that they actually may be a little intimidated. In real life, it's just written all over their face. Like, it's sometimes where I see like somebody is just so nervous, I just gotta crack a smile like, hey, you know, like, don't piss on yourself. You know?

• 53:08Channing Crowder?

  Don't piss on yourself.

• 53:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, it just looks bad, like.

• 53:11Channing Crowder?

  But you say.

• 53:12Speaker 03

  I ain't did nothing.

• 53:13Channing Crowder?

  But, did you see his smile though? I gotta crack a smile, how he doing it? Hey, he say, yeah, crack a smile. Your smile is very endearing, brother.

• 53:21Speaker 03

  I'm just saying, like, I'm trying not to show my braces.

• 53:26Ryan Clark?

  Debo, um, we started talking about it a little bit earlier. I was there when the whole Chad versus Debo fight talk started. Right? Well, inside the NFL, he said, he was like, we can do MMA, whatever. Chad started talking. It seemed very playful.

• 53:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 53:44Ryan Clark?

  At that moment.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  Right.

• 53:45Ryan Clark?

  And you were even playful.

• 53:46Speaker 03

  Damn.

• 53:46Ryan Clark?

  You was laughing. You kiki'd as much as I've ever seen you fake kiki.

• 53:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it was funny.

• 53:52Ryan Clark?

  It was funny. But now, we've moved past funny. And you let him call you a B word in front of people. I was very proud of your restraint.

• 54:01Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 54:02Ryan Clark?

  That's growth.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  That's real growth.

• 54:05Ryan Clark?

  So if Chad truly wants to get inside a cage.

• 54:07Speaker 03

  I'm gonna give him everything he want. On my daddy, I'm gonna give him everything he want.

• 54:12Ryan Clark?

  Chad's little.

• 54:13Speaker 03

  I don't care. He asked for it. I didn't ask for this. I didn't ask for that. Listen, when you went and stepped over the bitch, you went to the bitch. Come on, what you want me to do? What you want me to do, Arson? I can't put my hands on you right then and there. Catch a case, but you actually want this thing? And you want it inside of a cage? You want to actually, like, do this, like, you really, truly believe this, like, like, he believes that. Yeah. I'm gonna give you everything you're looking for.

• 54:43Ryan Clark?

  I just got heartburn.

• 54:46Ryan Clark?

  Don't hit that little man, Debo.

• 54:48Speaker 03

  No.

• 54:49Ryan Clark?

  Don't hit that little man.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  There's certain things you can say and you can't say. Come on, man, you know a bitch ain't want. Hey, you a bitch. You know that ain't one of them.

• 54:56Ryan Clark?

  Very disrespectful.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 54:59Ryan Clark?

  Now that it needs to be handled as some.

• 55:01Speaker 03

  If that's what he wants, but like he said, I got a lot of growth and development.

• 55:06Ryan Clark?

  Lots.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  I could see that maybe he just

• 55:11Speaker 03

  went sideways. Okay, but if you're saying you, you really want to do this, we get this done. I ain't holding nothing back.

• 55:21Fred Taylor?

  That would be interesting, but I don't know if we could take the biggest troll on the planet that serious. But that's your, that's your deal. But I want to ask you this. From coming out the womb with your fists up.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Knotted up.

• 55:34Fred Taylor?

  Knotted up. To going to Kent State, undrafted, Pro Bowler, Defensive Player of the Year, Super Bowl champion, to where we are now. What's, what's been your biggest pivot in life? That one moment you can look back and say, without that happening, I wouldn't be who I am today?

• 55:52Speaker 02

  My kids. That's easy. I don't even think I'd be here.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  100% I don't think I'd be alive today. I didn't care about myself. I didn't care about nothing. I had, you know,

• 56:09Speaker 02

  I just didn't have a, a bigger picture, dude. I mean, I didn't save money till I had my son.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:20Fred Taylor?

  You didn't save money?

• 56:21Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Bruh, I had, I had maybe, you know, at that point in time,

• 56:26Speaker 02

  before, right before I had my son, I bought a crib. I had 360,000 debt on that, maybe 300,000 in the bank. And, you know, low, you know, a few, few grand in checking. I didn't save nothing, bruh. I wasn't, I was living on the edge. I, dude, I rode a motorcycle. Like, I didn't have no sense, bruh. I'm talking, you know, I'm going down 60, I don't even know, you know what 60 is. And, you know, I'm doing like 180 miles an hour, dude. 3 o'clock in the morning. And you know, you know what's so crazy? I'm, this is that time, I was 28, 29 years old.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  It's like right before, you know, end up, you know, having, having James.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  And I, I thought I couldn't die. It was impossible for me to be killed. I was in, I was like, like in my head, I just, I couldn't die. I'm doing like 130 at that time, right? And, uh, I'm like, oh, what happens if a deer run out in front of me? I'm like, oh, I know.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  Gear down, gun it, shift back up, get to 180, I'm just gonna cut through it. That was my thought process, dude. I was gonna cut through a deer. At 180 miles an hour, it might just mess up the headlight on my bike, I'll be good. Like, I really thought, like, it was no way for me to be hurt, or, or, like... And then when I had my sons, it was like, I had James, I'm like, oh, God.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  What if I, what if I die? What's gonna happen to him, you know? And then, you know, I had, I had Henry, I'm like, oh, my. And from that point, dude, I started saving everything. You know, I started trying to make plans for, you know, you know, what, what I'm gonna do to, to make money, you know, when I'm done, you know? I got into, you know, real estate. I got five, um, you know, working on my six residential building. Everything just started planning towards, you know, what can I do to secure, you know, their future? So they have something, you know, when that point in time comes, you know, when I am gone. But before I had my kids, dude,

• 58:47Speaker 02

  I didn't, I didn't think about anything.

• 58:48Channing Crowder?

  You convinced yourself you were really a superhero?

• 58:50Speaker 02

  I was, dude, yes.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  You know what? That was a logical thought all the way up until I was like, a year, year in after I had James, it was like a logical thought. It was like, yo, I just cut through it, it's nothing. Slide through it. Just cut through him, keep, keep going. Like, ain't nothing, that's how, you, you wanna know what's so crazy? That's how I got over my fear of flying.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  I'm like, the plane crash, I ain't gonna die. I'm gonna roll through this thing and get up out of here, I'm gonna be good. Swear.

• 59:24Ryan Clark?

  Devo, why did you think you created that false or that fantasy world away from reality? Cause none of what you're saying is real life. You're not gonna cut through a deer.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Oh, I know that now.

• 59:36Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, you, if the plane crash, doesn't matter how much you roll, if it blows up, you're not gonna live through it. Why did you create that reality? Did having James...

• 59:50Ryan Clark?

  Bring you into reality? Or did you finally say, it doesn't matter if I can do those things or not? I don't want to risk it because of him?

• 59:59Speaker 02

  It brought me into reality, dude. Because now I had someone, like I was, I was seeing what could happen to him. And I'm like, yo, that could happen to me. And it was like, oh, my goodness, you're not invincible, dude. You can't cut through a deer. Like, you know, even if he was a grown man, he wouldn't be able to do that. And I think it just, like I said, it just kicked all in and it was, um, fear.

• 1:00:25Ryan Clark?

  Was it your first time being scared?

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  That's how I dealt with being scared of flying is I made it to where, oh, I can't die. So I no longer scared, you know? And then it was, my son is fear. Like, I can't protect him on everything. You know, I can't be there for everything. It's, you know, all the situations, you know, that you see, you know, happening in the world. It's like, damn, now it's possible. The crazy thing is, I never really wanted kids. Cause I never wanted to care more about somebody than I did myself. And when I had them, I became vulnerable. I was no longer invincible. I think that was something I needed.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Because like I said, I don't think I would be here because I've been and did something already that got me took out of here. And then just wanting to secure, you know, their future and making sure that I'm around, you know, as long as I possibly can be. It don't matter, you know, when you lose your, your father. But you're hoping, at least me, I'm hoping that I go before my kids because that's the natural order. But it's still going to be hard for them. And I want to be around as long as I can to make sure it's easier for them to deal with that pain because they'll be older. They'll, you know, they already have a relationship with their Lord and Savior. So. You know, that's something that they can,

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  you know, hopefully deal with when that time comes, but young and with nothing, you know, to, you know, secure, you know, their future is crazy.

• 1:02:02Ryan Clark?

  I've been knowing you a long time, man, and some of this was the first time I ever got to hear it. And it was special for me, man. You know, I love you.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:10Ryan Clark?

  You're my dog. One of the most special people I've ever met throughout my career. You know, we say all the time, man, all your friends ain't your teammates, all your teammates ain't your friends. You know what I'm saying? But you are my friend, man. I, I do believe you belong in the Hall of Fame. Whether or not it happens, I know you'll be all right. But you would get my vote any day.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Thank you, man.

• 1:02:30Ryan Clark?

  My dog.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 1:02:32Ryan Clark?

  Dang, man, you had me a little teary eyed, man. Yeah, dog. I ain't like that, dog.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Sir.