Pod Insights Scamfluencers Trevor Milton: The Elon Musk of Semi-Trucks | 220 About this episode Trevor Milton called himself a serial entrepreneur and his playbook was simple: pick a futuristic idea, promise it will change the world… then talk about it constantly online. His biggest pitch was an emissions-free semi-truck that would make diesel engines obsolete. Investors poured in billions of dollars. But Trevor spent far more time selling the dream than building the truck – and soon, a scorned business partner, a frazzled engineer, and a finance bro with a conscience will start pulling at the threads of his startup empire, exposing the used car salesman at its core.
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 10,550 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Sarah Hagi? Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
0:14 Sarah Hagi? Sachi, do you remember when the idea of global warming went mainstream and then suddenly every single product was green? It just became green?
0:23 Scaachi Koul? It's amazing that we lived through that. I feel like how my parents felt about like when smoking became bad.
0:32 Sarah Hagi? Whoa, that is such a good comparison.
0:34 Scaachi Koul? It's, that's our thing.
0:36 Sarah Hagi? I feel like it's slowed down because it is kind of getting harder to pretend every individual choice is the cause of climate catastrophe. Like, I mean, deep down, I think people who believe it know it's corporations, right?
0:48 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, I really believe in trying to do everything you can for the planet. I recycle, I don't litter, but if they try to give me one more fucking paper straw, I'm going to start a revolution.
1:01 Sarah Hagi? You and me both, sister. Well, today, our scammer is one who took a lot of advantage of the greenwashing craze. Promising to totally disrupt the transportation industry, this scammer lied his way into millions by offering something too good to be true.
1:23 Sarah Hagi? It's a sunny day in late 2017, and Noah Kerschisnik is sitting behind the wheel of a massive semi-truck on a two-lane highway in rural Utah. Noah is an all-American boy with dark hair tucked under a trucker hat. He rests one hand on the steering wheel and stares out at open fields stretching out in every direction. But Noah isn't a long-haul driver. He's an actor. And this isn't a delivery, it's a commercial shoot for an auto parts company called Philips. While Noah is technically the lead in this ad, the real star is the truck, the Nikola One. It's a white 18-wheeler with red and blue stripes and the letters "H2" stamped on the fender because
2:06 Sarah Hagi? this truck is powered by clean hydrogen instead of dirty diesel. Or at least, that's the pitch. The man behind this claim is Trevor Milton, the founder and CEO of Nikola. And yes, his company is named after inventor Nikola Tesla, just like another electric vehicle company you may have heard of. Trevor isn't as well-known as Elon Musk, but he's hoping the Nikola One will change that. Because if a hydrogen-powered semi-truck actually works, it would revolutionize the transportation industry. Noah is ready to film the commercial's most important scene: actually driving the truck. He can't wait to test this baby out.
2:48 Sarah Hagi? The inside of the truck looks like a spaceship with a panoramic windshield and a control panel that looks like an iPad on steroids. But then the engineers break the bad news. He's not gonna drive it, not even a little. Instead, they're going to tow the semi to the top of a hill and then just let it go. When the engineer gives a signal, Noah and the Nikola One roll down the hill. A drone swoops by, capturing the epic footage. Take a look.
3:20 Scaachi Koul? Okay, so the video is like a pretty standard promotional video of this truck going down the road. But I mean, it's a pretty big deal if you can make a truck this big work on hydrogen power. Like, that would be enormous.
3:34 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, I mean, from the outside, it looks incredible, like this futuristic semi is zooming along the highway. But really, gravity is doing all the work. For Noah, this is just another commercial shoot. But soon, this footage will become something else entirely: evidence. Because Trevor Milton, the man, the myth, the pathological liar behind the Nikola One, is about to reach the end of his road.
4:05 Speaker 02 I'm Lauren Malloy, the host of the podcast My Mom's Murder. For 30 years, I thought my mom died of natural causes. That's what everyone told me. That's what I believed. Until one day, I got a phone call that changed everything. A woman claiming to be my mom's best friend told me my mother was murdered and that no one had ever investigated it. So I did what the detectives wouldn't: pulled the threads, knocked on doors, and confronted the contradictions. And what I found, it's worse than I imagined. Something happened to my mom. Someone killed her. And I won't stop until I find out who.
4:47 Speaker 02 The system may have given up on my mom, but I never will. Listen to My Mom's Murder wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all 10 episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
5:05 Speaker 03 Hi, I'm Kenia Barris.
5:06 Speaker 04 And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible Original Podcast, The Unusual Suspects.
5:12 Speaker 03 We're bringing you fresh, new conversations from guests like Anderson Paak, David Zedars, Ryan Howard, Rich O, Amy Sheld, and many more.
5:19 Speaker 04 Sign up for a free trial to Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
5:27 Sarah Hagi? From Audible Originals, I'm Sarah Haggie. And I'm Sachi Cole. And this is Scamfluencers.
5:42 Sarah Hagi? Trevor Milton called himself a serial entrepreneur. His playbook was simple. Pick a futuristic idea, promise it will change the world, then talk about it constantly online, a strategy that worked pretty well for Elon Musk. In Trevor's case, the idea was an emissions-free semi-truck, one that would make diesel engines obsolete. With confidence and a Twitter account, he created enough hype to raise more than $1 billion. Unfortunately for his investors, Trevor spent more time talking about his trucks than actually building them. But you can only fake it for so long. Soon, a scorned business partner, a frazzled engineer, and a finance bro with a conscience
6:25 Sarah Hagi? will help expose the truth behind an audacious startup scheme and the used car salesman at its core. This is Trevor Milton, the Elon Musk of semi-trucks.
6:42 Sarah Hagi? Long before Trevor became hell-bent on building a clean driving semi, he was a little boy who loved trains. It's 1988 in Las Vegas. Six-year-old Trevor has hair so blonde it looks white, and his skin is pink in the hot desert sun. And he's in little kid paradise, a Union Pacific train yard where his dad works as a railroad manager. Trevor comes here all the time. Sometimes, his dad even lets a conductor show him the inside of a locomotive. Today, the conductor explains that although the trains run on diesel, the diesel actually powers an electric motor, which means these locomotives are technically electric vehicles. The conductor points to a semi-truck on the freeway
7:26 Sarah Hagi? and tells Trevor, quote, "One day, they'll be smart enough to build a locomotive semi-truck." Here's Trevor remembering that moment years later.
7:35 Speaker 05 This is when the light bulb went off. I wasn't anyone special at the time, nor was he. We weren't the first people to think about it. I don't lay claim on it. But what it did is it was a seed. It was a seed that cultivated over my life. It was a seed of desire to build something, a desire to create something.
7:51 Scaachi Koul? All these VC guys are always saying stuff like that. "I'm unique because I wanted to make something." Everybody wants to make something. What does this even mean?
8:00 Sarah Hagi? I know, it doesn't matter what you think when you're a kid, basically, in my opinion. You want to invent something? Sure, so does every kid. But that idea stays with Trevor. He struggles in school, but shows promise with a different skill: salesmanship. When he's still in elementary school, Trevor takes out a child-sized loan of $20 from his dad. He uses it to buy candy, which he then sells to his classmates at a markup. He'll later brag that he made so much money, they almost kicked him out of school.
8:34 Sarah Hagi? Despite being the candy guy, Trevor has trouble making friends. He's overeager and constantly bullied. His saving grace is his mom, a real estate agent with tons of hustle. She's loving and supportive and encourages Trevor to keep going, even when the bullies won't let up. The family calls Trevor and his mom Energizer bunnies because they never quit. And Trevor sees firsthand just how strong his mom is. When he's only eight years old, she's diagnosed with cancer. She decides she needs to leave Las Vegas for a calmer life in a small town, but Trevor's dad stays behind to work in the city. So Trevor has to grow up quickly, taking care of his younger sister and his sick mom at the same time.
9:19 Sarah Hagi? Then, in 1997, his mom dies. Trevor is just 14 years old. The loss will shape the rest of his life. He's committed to honoring her legacy, her optimism, her work ethic, and her refusal to quit. He still carries that dream from the train yard, but Trevor quickly realizes he isn't destined to be the guy who builds it. He's the guy who's going to sell it. So he needs to find a partner to make his dream a reality.
9:54 Sarah Hagi? It's March 2010, more than a decade since Trevor's mom passed away. And Mike Schraut is riding in the back of a semi truck cab, driving through the quaint mountain town of St. George, Utah. Mike is in his late 30s with a blocky nose and kind eyes. But instead of looking out at the beautiful red rock plateaus, he's laser focused on his laptop. He has to get to his work right now, or he's screwed. Mike is an inventor who has created a fuel system that combines diesel and natural gas to power pickup trucks. And right now, he's trying to prove to executives from Swift Transportation that a system can also be used to power semi trucks,
10:37 Sarah Hagi? increasing efficiency and decreasing emissions in their fleet. If he pulls it off, he'll be looking at a multimillion dollar contract. And if he doesn't, months of work will go down the drain. Mike is only in this position because of Trevor Milton. He first met Trevor six years ago in 2004 in St. George. Trevor was in his early twenties and was running a security alarm company down the street from Mike's truck accessory business. Trevor would bring his vehicles to Mike's shop for upgrades and always haggle for a deal. Mike found that incredibly annoying, but he was raised in a religious Mormon family. He was told to always help a neighbor,
11:20 Sarah Hagi? even if that neighbor is constantly trying to squeeze you for pennies.
11:25 Scaachi Koul? That's very generous of him because I would not be so magnanimous if I found someone this annoying.
11:31 Sarah Hagi? No, I don't care if you're my neighbor. But a few years later, during the financial crisis in 2009, Mike's business went under. His family was struggling to get by. But Mike, a self-taught engineer who has always loved a project, realized he could save some money at the pump by converting his pickup to run on natural gas instead of expensive diesel. The conversion worked, and to make some extra cash, Mike started converting trucks for other people, too. Before long, Trevor heard about his new business. One day, Mike was at the gym when Trevor practically cornered him with a request to convert his personal truck. But soon, Trevor wants to go even bigger, asking Mike,
12:16 Sarah Hagi? "Why just pickups? Why not semi-trucks, too?" Trevor painted an exciting picture. Mike would handle the tech, Trevor would handle the business. Even though Trevor had dropped out of college and Mike had no formal training, Trevor thought their outsider status was an advantage. Together, they can think outside the box to transform the trucking industry and get rich in the process. He even played on Mike's faith, telling him this is what he was called to do. Trusting his enthusiastic new partner, Mike shook on a 50/50 deal and their new company, D Hybrid, was born.
12:56 Scaachi Koul? It never ceases to amaze me how many people are willing to fork over money with a handshake. Nobody seems to want to get a contract, anything, even something written down on a Post-it.
13:07 Sarah Hagi? I know, and I feel like it's because, you know, Mike has so much faith, but he was shocked by how fast Trevor moved after that. Through a friend of a friend, Trevor landed a meeting with Jerry Moyes, the CEO of Swift Transportation, one of the largest trucking companies in America. Jerry appreciated Trevor's confidence, and he was impressed enough by the pickup conversion that he decided he wanted in on de-hybrid. He sent Mike and Trevor a full truck cab to convert as a test run. It completely filled Mike's tiny driveway. Mike laid out the parts on his kitchen table and practiced driving the truck in his church
13:49 Sarah Hagi? parking lot. He had to figure it out by himself because Trevor had absolutely nothing to contribute on the engineering side. But little did Mike know, while he was working his ass off building this brand-new technology, Trevor was busy screwing him over. First, Trevor incorporated de-hybrid with himself as the sole owner. Then, he filed a patent for Mike's natural gas conversion system, and Trevor put himself down as the inventor, not Mike. Mike only found out about the betrayal when Trevor asked for his help with the patent filing, and Mike saw that his name was missing. When Mike confronted him,
14:32 Sarah Hagi? Trevor added Mike to the patent as a co-inventor. But instead of making him a full partner in the business, he put Mike on a payroll instead. Mike stayed on because he needed the money and because a part of him still believed Trevor would take care of him. Mike, you may have noticed, is far too trusting.
14:53 Scaachi Koul? This is, as ever, a testament to getting a contract and not trusting someone just because they live next to you.
14:59 Sarah Hagi? And also not trusting someone who actually has nothing to contribute to how the thing actually works.
15:05 Scaachi Koul? Yeah.
15:06 Sarah Hagi? But none of that matters if this demonstration for Swift doesn't work out. Mike sweats bullets as he looks between Trevor and his laptop, which is supposed to control the fuel system, but can't seem to connect. Eventually, Mike says a quiet prayer to himself.
15:27 Sarah Hagi? And then, miracle of miracles, the truck begins to hum.
15:33 Sarah Hagi? After two test runs, the Swift employees pull out some scrap paper, do the math, and say, "This system will cut their fuel costs by more than half." Mike has done it. This is the first step of what he hopes will be a revolution. And even though he's already seen red flags from Trevor, he's hoping they were one-offs, flukes. But he has no idea what else Trevor is hiding up his sleeve.
16:02 Sarah Hagi? It's November 2010, about six months since Trevor and Mike's successful ride with Swift Transportation. Trevor's watching his favorite talk show host, Glenn Beck, who is going on about his plan to fix America.
16:16 Speaker 06 The secret here is talking, talking to each other. This is the story of Passover. Talking, talking where? Put the picture of the family in the Great Depression. That is the answer, at the dinner table.
16:29 Scaachi Koul? You know, I've lived a pretty blessed Glenn Beck-free existence the last little while, and this has been really upsetting to be reminded that he talks like that.
16:40 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, he isn't a name that comes up a lot these days. Let's hope he stays in the shadows.
16:46 Scaachi Koul? Yeah.
16:47 Sarah Hagi? Well, Trevor isn't just watching for tips on how to make America conservative again. He's waiting for Glenn to say this.
16:56 Speaker 06 This is my kitchen table. And this is actually up now. I'm selling for charity. I'm getting rid of a lot of this stuff. And this is in my kitchen. This is now at upill.com.
17:06 Sarah Hagi? You might be wondering why Glenn Beck is using something called upill.com to sell his dining chairs. It's because Trevor is paying him to. Upill is another one of Trevor's businesses. It's an all-in-one website, an e-commerce platform where people can post classified ads, job listings, and find dates. It's basically a Frankenstein of every successful mid-2000s website you can think of.
17:34 Scaachi Koul? I mean, thank God for that because I do want to sell my clothes in the same place that I try to find a date, in the same place that I look for a tutor. So that feels right and helpful.
17:46 Sarah Hagi? In one swoop, you can do that on upillar.com. Well, Trevor started upillar around the same time he started D-Hybrid. And D-Hybrid is still in business. After the impressive test drive with the Swift executives back in May, D-Hybrid signed a $16 million contract to convert 800 semis in their fleet. Swift advanced Trevor $2 million to convert the first 100 trucks. But just two months later, executives tested D-Hybrid's converted trucks again, this time with more sophisticated equipment. The numbers were off the charts, in a bad way.
18:26 Sarah Hagi? The D-Hybrid fuel system was producing 2,000% more emissions than normal. On top of that, the natural gas system had added so much power to the semi that the tires were literally flying off in shreds.
18:42 Sarah Hagi? Here's another thing about Trevor. He works hard, until things get hard. He's all about the vision of a revolutionary semi. But when reality doesn't match the picture in his head, he bails. So he told Mike to fix the engines while he pivoted towards upillar, the shiny new toy. Trevor starts talking up local Utah investors, many of them old classmates and members of the Mormon church. Though we don't know a lot about Trevor's own religious practice, we know that he was raised Mormon. And he often uses this shared connection as a sales tool, telling investors he has good spiritual feelings about their investments.
19:23 Sarah Hagi? Perspective buyers are excited about D-Hybrid and what the Swift deal means for it. But Trevor redirects them and their money to upillar. Trevor is 27 years old and sees himself as the next Elon or Bezos. He doesn't want just one successful business, he wants many. He gets these people, novices who have never invested before, to trust him with their life savings. Between D-Hybrid and upillar, he raises an estimated $8 million.
19:58 Scaachi Koul? This is always my least favorite kind of scam is like regular people with a little bit of money that get caught by someone who's like charismatic with a weird idea. I already hate this.
20:09 Sarah Hagi? And it's even worse because Upillar is limping out of the gate. Trevor claims the site has 80 million users. That's a lie. Upillar only has about 200,000 monthly visits. And the site is burning through $100,000 a month. We don't know exactly where that money went, but it seems likely that Trevor spent much of it on advertising. There are the Glenn Beck ads, of course, but Upillar also sponsors a NASCAR driver and through an 8,000-can silly string party for college students. To keep both companies running, Trevor starts blurring the financial lines. He shifts investor funds from D-Hybrid to Upillar
20:52 Sarah Hagi? and even has some D-Hybrid employees work on Upillar projects. But it doesn't help. While D-Hybrid hangs on, Upillar goes belly up. Trevor says the company didn't have enough money to handle all of the server traffic and that if he had been in Silicon Valley, he would have gotten larger investments, big enough to match the site's growth. That's right, Trevor didn't fail. He was just too successful. But Trevor's tendency to overpromise and underdeliver goes beyond Upillar. Soon, his other partners will catch on and they'll come after him for failing to make good on his word.
21:35 Sarah Hagi? It's May 2012 and Trevor is standing on the floor of the Long Beach Convention Center at a cleanup transportation expo. D-Hybrid has a converted semi-truck parked on the convention floor. They've cracked open the truck's fuselage to show off a new natural gas system, one that Mike Schraut's team has spent the last year developing. There's even a futuristic touchscreen attached to the hull so attendees can get a brochure. Trevor, now 30 years old, is hoping this new tech will attract fresh customers because his current ones have been less than happy with him lately.
22:14 Sarah Hagi? Two years ago, Swift Transportation gave DeHybrid $2 million to convert 100 semis from diesel to natural gas. So far, Mike has only managed to convert five of them, and the trucks barely work. Newer engines meant stricter regulations, and Mike couldn't get them to perform for the price or on the deadlines Trevor had promised. Trevor overpromised Swift, overworked Mike, and overspent Swift's money trying to keep U-Pillar alive. That sounds like classic VC/CEO nonsense. Sounds like what they're all doing, frankly. Exactly. He's just doing it far, far worse than anyone else.
22:59 Sarah Hagi? And Swift CEO Jerry Moise, the man who launched Trevor's career, is furious. Trevor's persistence and salesmanship convinced Jerry to sink money into DeHybrid. But Trevor has repaid him by blowing his cash and failing to deliver. So Trevor needs this expo to work. He needs new money and new momentum. He's trying to project confidence on stage, but behind the scenes, everything is on the verge of falling apart. And that summer, it does. In July 2012, Jerry sues DeHybrid. And Jerry isn't the only one. That same week, Trevor is hit with a second lawsuit.
23:44 Sarah Hagi? This time by a company with a similarly insane naming structure: S-Power. S-Power had planned to buy DeHybrid until they realized Trevor was lying and the engines were a sham.
23:59 Scaachi Koul? I guess I'm relieved that this equally stupid company name could at least figure out that this was bullshit, right?
24:08 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, all you have to do is add a consonant to the beginning of a word and make sure it's lowercase, and that's a tech company, basically.
24:14 Scaachi Koul? Right, yeah.
24:15 Sarah Hagi? But also, Trevor learned something from all those years of being bullied as a kid. Stand your ground and fight back no matter what. So he doubles down and countersues both Swift and S-Power. He claims Swift was trying to steal his IP and that Jerry Moyes had preyed on a, quote, "unsuspecting entrepreneur." Trevor also says that it was S-Power, not him, who violated their contract by misusing confidential information. Meanwhile, Mike Schraut, the self-taught engineer whose inventions built this entire company, gets pushed out. He's been overworked, underpaid, and now there's no money left to pay him at all.
24:59 Sarah Hagi? The man whose fuel system started everything walks away with nothing. The wheels are coming off the car. There's no money left. Trevor's fighting lawsuits in every direction. To make ends meet, he's forced to sell his home, his car, even his guns. Trevor's empire might be crumbling, but he sits with the lesson his mom taught him: Never give up. It'll take some time, but he just has to find a life raft, even if it means throwing his business partners and investors to the sharks.
25:39 Scaachi Koul? I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari, a famous dancer turned World War I secret agent accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari, early and at free on Audible.
26:10 Speaker 04 You stepped out for your morning jog. Except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible, stories that speak to you.
26:51 Sarah Hagi? Two years after selling most of what he owns, Trevor is sneaking in some time on his motorcycle. It's early October 2014, and he's riding through the crisp Rocky Mountain air of Utah. Trevor is in his early 30s now and taking a few precious hours away from frantically trying to salvage his would be business empire. And those hours are about to pay off. To dig himself out, Trevor did what Trevor always does. Started a business. It might seem like a terrible time to found a new company, but Trevor did it anyway. In October 2012, Trevor and his dad launched DeHybrid Systems with Trevor as a CEO.
27:35 Sarah Hagi? Now, you might be thinking, didn't Trevor already have a business called DeHybrid? He did. That one is DeHybrid Inc. This new one is DeHybrid Systems. Trevor took the new company, filed similar natural gas storage patents, and moved it right back into the original DeHybrid offices. Even his own employees didn't realize they were two different companies.
28:02 Sarah Hagi? If this sounds confusing, that's the point. See, DeHybrid Inc. is drowning in lawsuits and has a bunch of pissed-off investors. The new company, DeHybrid Systems, has a clean slate. No lawsuits, no outside investors. And instead of fuel systems, DeHybrid Systems is focused on natural gas storage tanks. Trevor has spent the past two years trying to sell the new company, and he's finally found a mark: Worthington Industries, a steel manufacturer. Much like he did with Swift Transportation, Trevor talks himself up to Worthington executives.
28:44 Sarah Hagi? He sells them the idea of DeHybrid Storage Tank on one hand, while covering up all its problems with the other. Because those natural gas storage tanks have been ripping loose, tearing right off their frame while the trucks are in motion, nearly killing people in the process. To keep up appearances, Trevor has been sending employees out to fix them before his potential buyer notices. Lucky for Trevor, it works. Worthington purchases DeHybrid Systems for $12 million.
29:19 Scaachi Koul? This is craven and inexplicable. I don't even really understand how he just keeps finding money like this to buy stuff. But above all, this is so dangerous. Like, none of this stuff works.
29:33 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, it is so dangerous. And not just for the people dealing with his storage tanks. Because once the sale goes through, Trevor is inundated with calls and texts from his small-time investors who are thrilled by the prospect of finally making back the money they put into DeHybrid. Except they invested in DeHybrid Inc. DeHybrid Systems is a different company owned only by Trevor and his family. So when it sells for millions of dollars, the investors, the high school friends, the churchgoers, the community members who bought stock in the first DeHybrid, don't see a dime. Not only that, the DeHybrid they did invest in goes under.
30:18 Sarah Hagi? Trevor will later offer those initial DeHybrid investors a payout worth less than 1/10 of their investment. But he'll overstate how much they got back and spin it by saying that repaying them anything at all is proof he's a good guy. His victims are left confused and broke, and they definitely aren't thinking of Trevor as a good guy. Like Rob Chambers, one of Trevor's early investors and former high school classmate. After the Worthington sale, Rob reached out to Trevor for some clarification on where his money went. Trevor brushed him off, and Rob never recouped his $40,000 investment. Here's how Rob later described it to the Wall Street Journal.
31:01 Speaker 06 Oh dude, that was everything I had. I was like, looking back on it, I was so stupid. Who dumps their life savings into a company that isn't verified? So I'm gonna be working a 9 to 5 forever, man. Like, I don't have anything to fall back on.
31:23 Scaachi Koul? This is my nightmare. And you know what? It's also one of those things that you're not gonna know what you don't know. You trust someone, you think that they have expertise, you see that maybe they have some wealth, you want some of it. Sure, yeah, it makes sense at the time, and only in hindsight, you're like, wow, I just gave some random guy all of my money.
31:43 Sarah Hagi? That's exactly it, and that's also the power of Trevor. What he calls persistence is actually just lies. And he's really good at getting people to fall for them. While his investors pay the price, Trevor walks away with millions. The sale comes close enough to his birthday that he throws himself a party and pays for 30 of his closest friends to come join him in Hawaii. And then nearly ruins a trip by throwing a fit when his friends go on a hike without him.
32:14 Sarah Hagi? While his victims deal with the emotional blow of Trevor's betrayal, Trevor keeps moving. As the 2010s roll on and a new alternative fuel craze hits the markets, Trevor sees his chance. The dream from the train yard, the electric semi truck, is suddenly within reach. And this time, he wants to be seen as more than a CEO. He'll call himself a revolutionary.
32:43 Sarah Hagi? It's December 2016 at the headquarters of the Nicola Motor Company in Salt Lake City. Bob Simpson is standing on the showroom floor, which has been transformed from a sterile work environment into a lively event space. Bob has a long neck, salt and pepper hair, and a sick mustache. He's got 70s science teacher vibes, and he's an engineer working for Trevor Milton. Nicola is Trevor's new venture, the company he started after selling D-Hybrid. This time, Trevor isn't pitching a simple engine conversion. He's promising something far bigger: a brand-new electric, zero-emission semi truck
33:25 Sarah Hagi? that could transform the entire trucking industry. And today is the big reveal. Bob watches as a group of business types and truckers take their seats in front of a constructed stage. At its center is a shiny white tarp covering something shaped very clearly like a semi truck. In just a few minutes, the crowd will finally get to see the Nicola One, the vehicle of Trevor's dreams. Trevor, dressed in business casual chinos and a too-tight button-down shirt, is soaking in the excitement. But Bob can't muster the same enthusiasm, because he helped build this truck and knows something the crowd doesn't.
34:08 Sarah Hagi? Bob and his business partner Paul had been building out-of-the-box vehicle technologies in their garage, working on electric off-road vehicles using experimental tech that earned them a lot of attention. About a year and a half ago, Trevor reached out. He flew to Oregon to meet Bob and Paul. He turned on the charm, complimenting their work. Then he asked, "Could they take their electric off-road vehicle technology and scale it up?" Trevor was imagining a hybrid-natural-gas electric truck. But during the meeting, Bob pushed back. "Why not go all the way and build a fully-electric, emissions-free electric truck? One that would be great for the environment."
34:53 Sarah Hagi? Sachi, can you read Trevor's response?
34:56 Scaachi Koul? He said, quote, "I don't give a shit about the environment. I just want to make money." You know what? At least he's honest. I find that far less offensive than like any greenwashing that could happen for a truck company that is on the verge of murdering people.
35:13 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, I think it's the first honest thing he has said. And that comment stuck with Bob. But he believed in the good that a hybrid truck could do. So he and Paul agreed to contract with Nikola. Unfortunately, working for Trevor downright sucks. He's demanding, rude, sets unrealistic expectations, and becomes scarily upset when they aren't met. Bob and Paul spent 2015 trying to meet Trevor's expectations, shipping parts as fast as they could to Nikola's headquarters in Utah. But then, on a trip to headquarters, Bob saw that the parts they'd worked so hard to deliver on time hadn't even been opened. He realized Trevor only had a team of about a dozen employees
35:58 Sarah Hagi? working on assembling the truck, and most of them were not experienced auto professionals. Bob starts to doubt he'll live long enough to see a Nikola truck. And yet, just a few months later, in May of 2016, Nikola announced itself to the world with a press release promising a near-zero-emission electric semi-truck.
36:22 Sarah Hagi? Bob was surprised by the early announcement, given the state of things when he visited. He figured, maybe Trevor just wanted to get the word out about Nikola in a red-hot EV market. But Bob was even more upset when, just three months later, Nikola claimed the truck, called the Nikola One, would be zero emissions. And a few weeks after that, the company went even further, claiming the Nikola One would be powered by hydrogen fuel cells, an old, but incredibly difficult-to-engineer technology that produces water, not smog, as a byproduct. That would really make Nikola stand out in the electric-vehicle world. There's just one problem.
37:07 Sarah Hagi? The truck Bob's been working on is powered by natural gas, not hydrogen. Those are two wildly different technologies. When Bob talks to the other engineers, he learns that Nikola doesn't even have hydrogen technology yet. The Nikola press release had called Trevor a, quote, "visionary CEO." Bob can see the vision Trevor's going for, but so far, it's all smoke and mirrors.
37:36 Scaachi Koul? This is a really impressive business model where you just make shit up and hope for the best. I'm amazed at how many companies, especially companies that are rooted in invention, and car companies that are just like, "Hey, what if the car had boobs?" And they're like, "Yeah, what if it did? Here's $1 billion."
37:55 Sarah Hagi? I know, it feels like a child's science fair, where it's like, "That's a big idea, and you deserve a ribbon that is worth millions of dollars."
38:05 Scaachi Koul? Yeah.
38:06 Sarah Hagi? Well, that brings Bob to tonight, Trevor's big unveiling of the Nikola One. After everything he's seen, part of Bob almost didn't want to come. But curiosity got the better of him, because he knows what's really inside that truck, or more accurately, what isn't inside. From the outside, the Nikola One looks like the vehicle of the future. It's all smooth lines, dramatic lights, and red, white, and blue. But beneath the shiny shell, it still has its original natural gas turbine. Nothing about this truck is hydrogen-powered. And Trevor has explicitly told Nikola employees they can't talk to anyone at the event and say otherwise.
38:49 Sarah Hagi? Bob knows this truck isn't operational because he's been asked to plug it in for the show. As he wiggles under the cramped stage and connects the power cord that turns on the truck's lights, he can't help but laugh to himself. This is nuts. Lying in the cramped space underneath the revolving stage, Bob hears Trevor tell an auditorium full of excited industry insiders how real this truck is.
39:17 Speaker 05 It's my pleasure to actually let you guys enjoy the night, see the truck, know it's real, touch it, feel how sturdy it is. You're gonna see that this is a real truck. This is not a pusher. Thank you so much, everyone. I appreciate it. Thank you.
39:32 Scaachi Koul? This reminds me of that episode of Arrested Development where they have to build a house in like, two days. And they obviously can't do that, so they just build the outside of it and it immediately falls apart.
39:43 Sarah Hagi? You know, it's so funny because he keeps mentioning how real it is. And in my mind, if someone is pointing out something I can see with my own eyes and telling me it's real, it's like, you don't have to keep saying that.
39:53 Scaachi Koul? Yeah.
39:54 Sarah Hagi? And Bob can't believe it. A pusher is an auto industry term for a model that can't drive under its own power. This truck doesn't even have a power source. Trevor is blatantly lying onstage and there's a room full of Nikola engineers who know it. How can Trevor possibly think he'll get away with this? Now that Bob's seen behind the curtain and under the stage, he wonders how he could have ever believed Trevor in the first place. But he won't be the last to fall for Trevor's charm. Trevor will take his incredible claims and ostentatious lies about the Nikola 1 out for a joyride, all the way to the top of the stock market.
40:38 Sarah Hagi? But this journey is bound to end in a fiery crash.
40:46 Sarah Hagi? It's the summer of 2020, and like most people during the pandemic, Trevor is living on Zoom. He's nearly 40 now, and he's got an elaborate digital backdrop: a gray wall with textured hexagons and a blocky N logo for Nikola, backlit with a cool blue glow. A lot of people in the manosphere have seen this background lately because Trevor is on a nonstop press junket. He's been doing podcasts and interviews with car bros, business bros, and even the podcast Rise of the Young, hosted by a literal teenager. Trevor's been hopping on the phone with anyone who will speak to him
41:27 Sarah Hagi? because Nikola Motor Company is about to go public. He's been working toward this moment since the unveiling of the Nikola One four years ago. Since then, electric vehicles have gone mainstream, in large part thanks to Elon Musk and Tesla. But Trevor's niche, the hydrogen-powered semi-truck, sets Nikola apart. Their big announcements have the auto industry buzzing. Trevor claims Nikola has $10 billion worth of reservations for future trucks, and says they've planned a network of hydrogen fueling stations across the country, just like Tesla did with their network of electric chargers.
42:10 Sarah Hagi? Now, none of this has happened yet, but Trevor is out here making promises that it will. And he secures more than $500 million in investments, valuing Nikola at $3 billion. Remember when Trevor told Bob Simpson that he only cared about making money? Well, mission accomplished. He's been spending it too: on jets, a big wedding, and the most expensive ranch in the state of Utah, which he purchased for $32.5 million.
42:44 Sarah Hagi? Money aside, this public launch represents something more. Sure, people are buying stock in Nicola, but in another sense, they're buying stock in him. Trevor tells the same stories over and over in interviews about his childhood lightbulb moment at that train yard and how his failed startups taught him the lessons he's brought to Nicola. But he also gets a little snarky and really cringey. He hosts a segment on Instagram called Trevor with Trolls, where he reads out mean comments and responds to them. He even wears a special hat that says Trevor with Trolls while he does it. Just like you, Sachi.
43:25 Scaachi Koul? I obviously resent this because this is my bailiwick. And how dare he enter my space of being an obnoxious little bitch on the internet. I think if you run a company, great, then you should be neither seen nor heard. There used to be a time when you were a CEO, Fortune 500 CEO, and nobody knew who you were. You had no name recognition. You were not famous. You weren't running your GD mouth on a podcast. Those are places for weeners like you and I, Sarah.
43:57 Sarah Hagi? Exactly.
43:57 Scaachi Koul? People who don't own stuff.
43:59 Sarah Hagi? Yes.
43:59 Scaachi Koul? They are ruining what is our place. I don't like it.
44:03 Sarah Hagi? Agreed, because you have to have nothing to lose to clap back.
44:06 Scaachi Koul? And they have so much to lose, and that's why they're bad at it.
44:09 Sarah Hagi? Yeah. Even worse, Trevor also tries so hard to be deep. Listen to the advice he gives a teenage podcaster on The Casey Adams Show.
44:19 Speaker 05 You can't build that confidence just by business. You have to build it socially too, which means you have to go out and serve other people. And if you're serving other people, you can learn to love yourself. And by learning to love yourself, again, you can learn to love the process of going into business.
44:32 Scaachi Koul? Okay, I don't know what that Mad Libs meant. I guess it's true, but I can't think of anybody less equipped to tell you that message than some guy building a fake truck company.
44:43 Sarah Hagi? I also don't think anyone building a company should love themselves.
44:47 Scaachi Koul? Well, they clearly don't. That's why they had to do this in the first place. That's like asking a writer, like, what do I do for my self-confidence? Don't ask me. I am clinically depressed.
44:58 Sarah Hagi? These interviews, by the way, are designed to sell Nikola, and they're also meant to sell Trevor as a titan of the industry. Never mind that he's built Nikola by lying at every step. But the public doesn't know that. What they see are things like the so-called Nikola in motion ad. This is the ad from the beginning of the episode, Scaachi. Remember Noah, the actor who was hired to sit in the cab of a truck while it rolled downhill? In 2018, Nikola PR posted a clip with the caption, quote, "Behold, the Nikola One in motion." Technically, this is true. The Nikola One is moving. But not because of a zero emission hydrogen cell system. Gravity did the work.
45:43 Sarah Hagi? Trevor conveniently leaves that fact out in his podcast appearances. Trevor's PR push is semi-successful. He's not building a brand name as powerful as Elon's, not yet. But he's convinced more than a few people that he could. They're mainly small investors at this point, the kind who are often less financially savvy and more susceptible to hype for hype's sake. They go all in on Nikola, even taking out loans or using their life savings, all to get in on what could be the next Tesla. And it is paying off. Less than a week after going public and without a single working vehicle on the road,
46:26 Sarah Hagi? Nikola's stock soars to triple its initial offering. On June 9, 2020, Trevor takes to Twitter to brag about it. Scaachi, please, can you read us his tweet?
46:38 Scaachi Koul? He says, quote, "I've wanted to say this my whole adult life. Nikola is now worth more than Ford. It may go up and down, and that's life, but I'll do my part to be the most accessible and direct executive on Twitter. Others will follow." Nobody wants this.
46:55 Sarah Hagi? No.
46:56 Scaachi Koul? Nobody wants to be able to find an accessible executive on Twitter. Just pay everybody a fair rate, don't be weird, and ideally, your truck company should work. It should not be a Hot Wheels situation where you like rev the wheels up and then let it go and it crashes into a wall, or like your cat pushes it away. What is he talking about?
47:18 Sarah Hagi? Also, he doesn't have friends. That's why he wants to be accessible. This is all because he's friendless.
47:22 Scaachi Koul? Ah, yes.
47:23 Sarah Hagi? Also, being accessible doesn't necessarily make someone a good CEO, but it does make Trevor's priorities clear: make a name for himself and make money. Finally, Trevor has reached his peak, and this time, he's taken his investors with him. But much like the Nikola one in motion commercial, it is all downhill from here. It's June 2020, and Nate Anderson is scrolling Twitter. He's got dark, thinning hair and a shaggy goatee, a little unkempt in a sophisticated tech bro kind of way. Scrolling is basically part of his job.
48:05 Sarah Hagi? Nate is the founder of Hindenburg Research, and what Hindenburg does is hunt. They find companies with financial irregularities, expose them, and short the stock. Nate catches liars and profits on their downfall, and he's very good at it. He's scrolling and scrolling until he stumbles on Trevor's tweet bragging about beating Ford in the stock market. Trevor's entitlement instantly sets off alarm bells for Nate, and Nate trusts his instincts. He's taken down fraudsters before, and his assessments are rarely wrong.
48:42 Scaachi Koul? Nate sounds like us if we knew how the stock market worked.
48:46 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, he's like us if we knew how to do more things.
48:48 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, if we could do anything at all, we would be Nate.
48:51 Sarah Hagi? Exactly. And after some light digging, Nate discovers that Nikola doesn't actually have any vehicles on the road, just reservations for future trucks. That makes him wonder, why did the stock climb so high? He expands to researching Trevor himself. And luckily, Trevor loves doing interviews and posting about his entire life on Twitter, which means he's left behind a trail of breadcrumbs the size of baguettes. Nate spends hours sifting through videos of Trevor and quickly comes to a conclusion. If Trevor says it, it's probably a lie. Like the video of Trevor pitching government partners claiming that Nikola's headquarters
49:35 Sarah Hagi? is powered by solar panels on its roof. A picture of the top of Nikola's headquarters reveals that's not true. Or a since-deleted video tour of Nikola's offices where Trevor bragged about building some of the best electric converters in the world and said other companies were begging to use them. But Nate notices a piece of tape on the inverter. Turns out it was covering up the real manufacturer's information. Hint: It was not Nikola. And then there's the hydrogen problem. One of the sticking points for Nikola's hydrogen-powered trucks is the hydrogen itself.
50:16 Sarah Hagi? You can't just go to any gas station and fill up your car with hydrogen. Nikola had promised customers they'd build a network of hydrogen stations across the country, but that's nowhere close to happening. Nikola hasn't even been able to produce hydrogen at their own headquarters. Nate is shocked. He's investigated a lot of liars, but none have been this obvious.
50:43 Scaachi Koul? I guess I can understand if somebody presents to you a company, you're gonna think, "Well, it surely must exist in time and space." Like, the very basis of it cannot be bullshit. But as we know on this show, sometimes it's bullshit from the beginning.
51:02 Sarah Hagi? Not to mention, he found all of this just by looking at the guy's Twitter, basically.
51:07 Scaachi Koul? As usual, one Google could save your life.
51:09 Sarah Hagi? Ugh. And if all of that wasn't enough, Nate's been able to get in touch with Trevor's former coworkers who have lots to share. Like Mike Schraut, Trevor's business partner at D-Hybrid, who he screwed out of a 50/50 handshake deal. Well, not only is Mike a self-taught engineer, he's a meticulous record-keeper. And when Nate contacts him, Mike doesn't hesitate to hand over emails and old photos, including a fundraising PowerPoint where Trevor lied about having an experienced chief technology officer on staff. Other insiders tell Nate that the Nicola One in motion
51:51 Sarah Hagi? commercial was a sham that purposely misled the public. Using the video as reference, Nate finds the exact hill from the commercial and sends someone to check it out. It has a very slight downward tilt, one that isn't noticeable on camera. But does that really make a difference? Absolutely. Nate has his investigator take his Honda CR-V to the top of the hill, put it in neutral, and let it go. The car coasts at speeds of almost 60 miles per hour. For two months, Nate gathers evidence with the intent of shorting Nicola and exposing Trevor for the fraud he is.
52:34 Sarah Hagi? But as he finishes his 15,000-word exposé and uploads it to his site, he pauses, hovering his mouse over the publish button. He can't help but feel a pit in his stomach. After all, Trevor is making deals with real companies. Just two days earlier, on September 8, 2020, General Motors announced a partnership with Nicola. Do they know something Nate doesn't? In the end, Trevor's cocky smile is what makes Nate press publish on the morning of September 10. He just knows this guy is lying about everything and he's ready for everyone else to see it too.
53:17 Sarah Hagi? Trevor thought he was going to drive off into the sunset, but Nate's dogged reporting is about to force Trevor to hit the brakes. Trevor's a car crash waiting to happen, and Nate's going to make sure everyone, including the legal system, can't look away.
53:43 Speaker 04 Dr. Seuss's Cat in the Hat and Fish are back for a whole lot of wonderfully whimsical fun. What happens when you switch bodies with your best friend? Discover a caveman frozen in ice? Or make an alien so angry he threatens to destroy the planet? Find out in season two of the Cat in the Hat podcast. The Cat and Fish are traveling the world in the great catastrophic Cockafany Cruiser, meeting genies, clown professors, cave trolls, and extraordinary characters along the way. With clever wordplay, imaginative rhymes, original songs, and stories celebrating curiosity, empathy, and creative problem solving, every adventure brings something new to discover.
54:26 Speaker 04 It's a world of wonderful words, big imaginations, and plenty of heart for the whole family. Listen to the Cat in the Hat podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all 20 episodes early and ad-free right now.
54:43 Scaachi Koul? He lurks in shadow. He slips into dreams. He casts no reflection. Audible presents Bram Stoker's Dracula: How You've Never Heard It Before, with a new full cast audio thriller starring Jonathan Bailey as Dracula, Ella Purnell as Mina Harker, and an A-list cast, including Maggie Gyllenhaal as Van Helsing, Amy Lou Wood as Lucy, David Johnson as Dr. Seward, and many more. When Mina's fiance Jonathan Harker vanishes in Transylvania, Mina pieces together letters, diary entries, and chilling testimony to hunt the predator stalking those she loves,
55:25 Scaachi Koul? only to discover Dracula's already hunting her. Audible's Dracula invites you to welcome literature's most shadowy figure into your home. Listen to the new audiobook adaptation of Bram Stoker's Dracula, only on Audible.
55:52 Sarah Hagi? It's July 2021, and Trevor is in Wyoming at one of his many houses. He's looking out at a beautiful mountain landscape. When his attorney calls with bad news, Trevor is about to be indicted for securities and wire fraud. It's been less than a year since Nate published his expose on Trevor's history of fraud and Nicola's dubious business practices. Trevor stepped down as chairman to take the stink off Nicola, although later he'll say it was to be with his wife while she dealt with health issues. Definitely not because his lying ass had been laid bare for the world to see. While Trevor retreated from the public eye, his victims finally felt emboldened.
56:36 Sarah Hagi? And it wasn't just the wronged investors. The day after Trevor resigned, two women came forward and alleged that Trevor had sexually assaulted them. One was a former employee, and another was his cousin. Trevor denies these allegations. Trevor might be trying to lay low, but the Justice Department isn't going to let him off the hook. Their case is built on something almost absurdly simple. Trevor's own words. All those podcasts, all those tweets, all those interviews where he bragged about technology that didn't exist. The DOJ says he lied to investors,
57:17 Sarah Hagi? quote, "on social media, on television, on podcasts, and in print." Trevor basically built the prosecution's case for them, one interview at a time.
57:30 Scaachi Koul? Um, I don't want to encourage people not to talk to the press, obviously, because, you know, we are the press. But you shouldn't talk to them if you are lying, I think. I'm going to be brave enough to say that.
57:44 Sarah Hagi? You know, some people need to learn how to move in silence.
57:47 Scaachi Koul? Yeah.
57:48 Sarah Hagi? So in September of 2022, Trevor is called to the U.S. Attorney's Manhattan courthouse to face the music and a cast of characters from his past. Trevor isn't happy to see any of them. Mike Schraut, the D hybrid engineer, shows up. And remember Bob Simpson, the guy who plugged in the Nikola 1 onstage? Turns out that while they worked together, Trevor went back to an old trick: filing patents based on designs Bob and his partner Paul had developed, without putting their names on them. Paul had a particular disdain for Trevor's arrogance. Around the time that Nikola went public, he started anonymously tweeting pictures and firsthand testimonies
58:33 Sarah Hagi? debunking Trevor's claims about a functional hydrogen-powered truck. And when Paul is called to testify, he doesn't hold back. He describes the electric converter lie and the Nikola 1 in motion lie. He even references simply "the big lie." When the prosecution asks what "the big lie" means, Paul responds, quote, "The idea that this was a functional and completed truck."
59:00 Scaachi Koul? Okay, perfect. So just like the entire business, then?
59:04 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, basically, anything but a rendering. And with each witness, the prosecution makes their case clear. Trevor is the reason small-time investors believed in Nikola stock. He repeatedly made false claims about the state of the company's vehicles and technology, and he did it loudly, publicly, and frequently. Meanwhile, Trevor's main defense, as laid out by his lawyers, is that he never intended to deceive anyone. He had a "good faith" belief that what he was saying was true. The jury doesn't buy it. When the judge reads out the verdict, guilty on three of the four counts, Trevor's jaw drops.
59:46 Sarah Hagi? He tells reporters after, quote, "I've done nothing wrong." Trevor's conviction is a welcome relief to the thousands of people he screwed over. But just like the Nikola 1, Trevor is always in motion. And this time, he's trying to find one last off-ramp.
1:00:08 Sarah Hagi? It's September 2024. Trevor is now in his early 40s, looking more worn and weary. He's sitting in a studded leather chair inside a tastefully decorated man cave den, wearing expensive jeans, a loose button down, and glasses. There's a camera in front of him. He's getting interviewed for a documentary he's releasing about himself. Since his conviction three years earlier, Trevor's appeals have kept him out of prison, and he hasn't stopped fighting his case. Here's just one of the reasons Trevor thinks he was indicted.
1:00:48 Speaker 05 I just saw me emotions because I didn't understand, like, why are they indicted? Meaning, he says, because of your speech. Yeah, it was how I used my verb tense in conversations.
1:00:59 Sarah Hagi? They indicted him because of what he said or how he said it? Because I'm pretty sure it's what he said, right? I think it's what he said, things he's done, you know?
1:01:08 Scaachi Koul? Like, all of it.
1:01:09 Sarah Hagi? Everything, yeah.
1:01:09 Scaachi Koul? They indicted him because of everything he's ever done, but he's like, it's because of my verb conjugation.
1:01:15 Sarah Hagi? Exactly.
1:01:16 Scaachi Koul? Be for real, dog. Come on.
1:01:18 Sarah Hagi? The verbs indicted him, it happens to so many great men.
1:01:23 Sarah Hagi? In a way, this conviction has gotten Trevor what he wanted all along: recognition. He's a white male victim, and his story has struck a chord with the manosphere in a way that Nicola alone never could. Along with his own documentary, Trevor has been doing long-form podcasts with Jack Dudes advertising gun-themed coffee, and even Tucker Carlson himself. Trevor says the government had a target on his back because he was so successful so early, because Big Oil was after him, because nobody on the jury was a, quote, "look-alike person," AKA a white man, and that they hated the wealthy.
1:02:06 Sarah Hagi? In October 2024, a month after he sits down for the documentary, Trevor takes one last page out of the Elon Musk playbook. He donates $1.8 million to Donald Trump's reelection campaign. And sure enough, in March 2025, President Trump repays Trevor in kind with a full pardon. Trevor's pardon also conveniently negates the hundreds of millions of dollars of restitution owed to his investors, meaning more money for him to produce an hour and 45-minute documentary explaining why he's actually the good guy and the whole world is out to get him. Never mind that he had to trample over small-time investors
1:02:51 Sarah Hagi? and exploited employees to get there. But hey, at least his company was briefly worth more than Ford.
1:03:01 Sarah Hagi? Sachi, you know, it's always great when there's a happy ending to these stories, isn't it?
1:03:07 Scaachi Koul? I'm really relieved that everything worked out for this guy and seemingly for no one else.
1:03:12 Sarah Hagi? It's really incredible that you could basically just like pay your way into a presidential pardon. It is just so insane that this guy is totally fine.
1:03:22 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, I mean, what a clean shot. He came up with a nonsense story about a nonsense company that was completely full of nonsense and then was pardoned for all of the nonsense. I imagine all these people lost their money and never got any of it back, too.
1:03:37 Sarah Hagi? I guess a lot of these guys want to be like, you know, Tony Stark, swaggy, revolutionizing the world, blah, blah, blah. But he was, is, so deeply a loser in every way and legitimately didn't do anything. He didn't do anything. There was nothing to show for it. Someone plugged something in, like, it really reminded me of Theranos when the way Elizabeth Holmes employees had to pretend that those little boxes were actually reading the blood and not doing anything weird. It's like, it's all smoke and mirrors and like weird toys these people make up. And even that actually Works probably better than this.
1:04:18 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, I mean, I think this case obviously has a lot of similarities to Theranos, which is someone who looks the way they want a CEO to look like, talks in a particularly strange affectation. In this case, he's like, kind of has like a nonsense story about what all of this means to him and the value of the company. And, and of course, like, you take a look behind the curtain and it's just like a bunch of cockroaches crawling over a control pad. There's nothing to it.
1:04:48 Sarah Hagi? No, there's nothing to it. And like, obviously, anyone who believes him is stupid, but it's like, you think out of all of human existence, everything that's happened since the industrial revolution, you think this is the guy who's going to change trucks? A guy who's never done anything, who liked trains as a kid? You know, if someone could create an emissions free truck, obviously that would change the world. But to be honest, I don't think it's ever going to happen because it would have to take so much lobbying. It would, it would have to destroy the oil and gas industry in some way. No part of it makes real sense as to how he was able to do this so quickly if you thought about it for like more than two seconds.
1:05:30 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, I mean, maybe the lesson here is that if there is a CEO that's coming forward with some sort of business model that will inherently disrupt the investors that they have, the market that they're speaking to, their colleagues in the CEO space, it's probably bullshit. Because with Theranos, it was the same thing. If that thing worked, it would have completely changed healthcare forever. And there are a lot of people who were investing in her who probably didn't want it to be that different.
1:05:59 Sarah Hagi? Without getting too in the weeds about capitalism, blah, blah, blah. I think the biggest red flag for anyone who has a way to make a lot of money, regardless of whether or not it's real, is that it is a vehicle for them to make content. Like, why are you making content when you have something that's making you money? Like, you want to be liked that badly and put yourself out there in that way? That's the red flag. Someone who makes content, who's trying to sell you something, is fucked in the head.
1:06:29 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, because the reality is that if you're gonna make content online, you are selling something, again, which is you. So why do I have to buy the product and the person? Is the product not enough that I have to buy the person?
1:06:42 Sarah Hagi? Anyone who's trying to innovate and is talking a lot is stupid. You should just let the work speak for itself.
1:06:48 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, take it from us, two people who talk all day, don't listen to anybody who talks too much.
1:06:53 Sarah Hagi? Yeah, but this is the, the content is the money, you know? You think I'm out here being rich, making content?
1:06:59 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, that's true. We are only selling ourselves, and that's how you know we're real, because we have nothing else to offer you but volume.
1:07:06 Sarah Hagi? Listen, if we ever hit it rich, there will be signs, and the signs will be that you'll never see or hear of us again, you know?
1:07:13 Scaachi Koul? Yeah, exactly. As long as you know where we are, we are poor.
1:07:18 Sarah Hagi? Thank you, that's exactly it.
1:07:24 Scaachi Koul? Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.
1:07:33 Sarah Hagi? From Audible Originals, this is Trevor Milton, the Elon Musk of semi-trucks for Scamfluencers. I'm Sarah Haggie.
1:07:41 Scaachi Koul? And I'm Sachi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected] . We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were reporting from Ben Foldy of The Wall Street Journal, Nikola's Trevor Milton Left a Trail of Bitterness on His Way to Founding the Electric Truck Startup by Roger Parloff, Trevor Milton: Inside the Nikola Founder's Tumultuous Past by Mark Matusek, and A Dubious Truck: A Whistleblower Army and Inept Spies Inside the Very Weird Nikola Saga by Ali Conti.
1:08:13 Sarah Hagi? Kyle Raby wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Haggie. Alex Burns was the story editor. Our senior producers are Sarah Enni and Ginny Bloom. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Fact checking by Kalina Newman. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Free Executive Producer for Audible is Jenny Lauer-Beckman. The Head of Creative Development at Audible is Kate Navin. The Head of Audible Originals North America is Marshall Louie. The Chief Content Officer is Rachel Giatza. Copyright 2026 by Audible Originals LLC.
1:08:58 Sarah Hagi? Sound recording copyright 2026 by Audible Originals LLC.
1:09:08 Speaker 04 Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, this trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next.
1:09:50 Speaker 04 Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts, and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
Previous John McAfee: The Antisocial Virus | 219 Next Bill Mize: The Car Crash King | 221 Page updated October 29, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated