The Manipulation Expert: How to Spot Hidden Manipulators & Take Your Power Back

In today’s episode, you’ll learn the hidden signs of a manipulative, toxic person from the #1 researcher in the world on dark personalities, Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD. She is here to teach you how to spot the poisonous people that are hidden in plain sight around you - in your family, your community, and at work. And, she’s giving you the science-backed guide to understand poisonous people: how they operate, how to spot the patterns early, and what to do when you realize you’re dealing with one. Dr. ten Brinke is a professor at the University of British Columbia, where she directs the Truth and Trust Lab and has spent nearly two decades studying trust, deception, manipulation, and dark personality traits. She wants to make one thing perfectly clear: most people are good. But one poisonous person can create an enormous amount of stress, confusion, and pain. This episode will help you recognize the pattern, trust what you’re seeing, neutralize their behavior, and know exactly what to do when you’re around them. In this episode, you’ll learn: -How to spot dark personality traits of narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism, and sadism in daily life -The #1 sign you’re being manipulated -What gaslighting is, what it is not, and what to do when you’re being gaslit -Why many toxic people seem charming at first -How gossip can reveal a manipulative personality at work -The simple ways to become more strategic instead of more emotional when dealing with difficult people After listening, you will know exactly what to do to spot toxic behavior, handle manipulative people, and take back your peace and power. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-416/ Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Meet the Guest 02:31 Why Toxic People Are So Harmful 09:10 The Four “Dark Personality” Traits 12:55 Hidden Signs of a Sociopath: What to Look For 21:26 What a Machiavellian Personality Looks Like 31:45 The Easiest Way To Spot A Narcissist in Your Life 38:03 How to Spot a Sadist and What To Do 44:14 How to Tell if Someone is a Psychopath or Just a Bad Person 45:15 Spot A Toxic Person in 10 Seconds 49:21 Why People With Toxic Traits Are Often in Powerful Positions 50:42 What Is Gaslighting And How To Spot It 53:09 Why Narcissists and Toxic People Don't Change 59:31 How to Protect Your Peace & Take Back Your Power Verizon: verizon.com — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:08Mel Robbins?

  Have you noticed that nowadays, people just throw words around like, oh, this person's toxic, that person's a narcissist, this person's a psychopath, as if it's nothing. But these words do mean something very specific. And our expert today is going to take you and me into the world of dark personalities. Because what she calls poisonous people aren't just the subjects of true crime investigation, or sitting in jails, they're in boardrooms, they're in public office, you might encounter them in your living room, or at work. Dr. Leanne Tenbrink is here in our Boston studios. She runs the Truth and Trust Lab at the University

• 0:53Mel Robbins?

  of British Columbia, where she is a professor of forensic psychology. She's spent two decades studying manipulators, chronic liars, and dark personalities. Because there will always be people who don't want peace. They want control, chaos, they want you confused. And you know what? They don't care when you're upset. This episode is not about labeling people as toxic. It's about something very specific and important. How to spot dark personality traits in other people. And when you do see these toxic traits, exactly what you should do. And more importantly, what you should not do when you encounter someone

• 1:37Mel Robbins?

  like this. And if in listening to this, you recognize that you, or someone you love, is in a relationship with someone with a dark personality. She has specific recommendations for how to extract yourself, or how to support someone you love who needs to. What you're going to learn today will help you protect yourself. Because as you know, you can't change and control their people. But you can recognize who you're dealing with, and become strategic in how you approach them. And that is the first step to reducing the stress and pain they can cause in your life.

• 2:21Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am thrilled that you're here. I'm so excited about this topic. It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're new here, or somebody sent this episode with you, I just want to take a moment and personally, welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. Dr. Leanne Brink is here to teach you and me how to spot a truly toxic person, and what to look for, and what to do. Dr. Tenbrink is a bestselling author who earned her PhD in psychology from the University of British Columbia, where she is also a professor and the director of the Truth and Trust Lab. She studies the patterns behind manipulation, gaslighting, chronic lying, and why a small number of people can cause so much damage

• 3:05Mel Robbins?

  in relationships, workplaces, and in positions of power. So what can forensic psychology teach us about the dark personalities that you encounter in your day to day life? That is exactly what she's here to teach you today. Please help me welcome Dr. Leanne Tenbrink to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

• 3:27Mel Robbins?

  I am so excited that you flew in all the way from British Columbia. Because I am fascinated by your field of expertise and your research. And our team devoured your bestselling book, Poisonous People. And what I'd love to have you do is, if the person listening applies everything that you're about to teach us from your studies of deception and dark personalities, and they apply it starting today, what will change?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I think they learn how to reduce one of the biggest stressors in all of our lives. Because dark personalities, and I'm not talking about like, the super extreme clinical levels here necessarily, people who are just like consistently callous and manipulative in our lives. And so you can probably, you know, everyone has someone in their lives that kind of might be popping into their head right now, right? The manipulative sister-in-law, the boss at work who just needs all the attention, and takes all the credit for your work, the callous mother-in-law. I get a lot of callous mother-in-laws in the comments. And these

• 4:38Speaker 01

  are people who cause us incredible amounts of stress. They divide us. They make us think that everyone is terrible, when that's not the case. And they erode norms of polite conduct. They enshrine competition, where cooperation would be so much better for everybody. This one bad apple can really ruin the barrel. And I think today, I'm hoping to give people some tools to stop that rot.

• 5:09Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my gosh. You know what was amazing about as you were talking, is it probably happened for you as you were listening to Dr. Tenbrink. But I started to have situations and people pop into my mind. And one of the things that I wondered almost immediately, because as you talked about, these are the huge source of stress. You talked about callous, manipulative, they divide us, they make you think other people are terrible, they stir up controversy and competition. Is it always someone who's doing it overtly? Or would

• 5:50Mel Robbins?

  this apply to somebody who's maybe a little bit more victim-y and softer in their approach? Like as we kind of, because I want, I want to start the conversation by you having people in your mind that cause you stress, so that you can think specifically about how to apply this.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  So we define dark personalities as the overlap between kind of specific dark personalities, which I'm sure we'll get into, is this kind of nexus of like, callous, manipulative, and hostile. And they certainly know what they're doing. So one of the questions I often get is, do these people realize that they are this way? Right? And the answer is yes. Because we often measure these personality traits with like a self-report. We ask them, is this characteristic of you? And they will say, yeah, that sounds like me. I don't have any remorse. I am a born leader. I am okay manipulating other people to get my

• 6:47Speaker 01

  way, and I don't feel bad about it. And so it's not like they don't realize that they are this way, but they don't necessarily care, or they're not like concerned about that impact on other people, right? That's that callous piece. So that combination of manipulativeness and callousness, I'm going to take advantage of you, I'm going to tell lies, and then I don't really worry about the consequences or how that makes you feel.

• 7:13Mel Robbins?

  Got it. I'm so happy that you just defined callous, because that was going to be my next question. So manipulative is, my behavior does impact you? And callous means, I don't really care that it does?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:25Mel Robbins?

  So what does a poisonous person look like in day-to-day life?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  So a poisonous person has elevated levels of callousness, manipulativeness, and hostility toward other people. That's kind of the core of dark personality traits.

• 7:41Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  If you're trying to think of, in your life, what does that person look like?

• 7:45Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  They might be the boss who is like consistently self-focused, and takes advantage of all the people that work underneath them, takes credit for their work, manipulates them perhaps into doing work that is not part of their job description, and then is like, oh, this is all about me, right? It could be the manipulative mom at the PTA, right? Like, she's kind of pulling the string, she's spreading rumors, and all so that she can kind of maintain this position of power, right? There's other versions, right? So you might have your friend's new boyfriend, right, might seem really kind of sickeningly sweet around her, but is actually

• 8:27Speaker 01

  really cruel to everyone else around him. And seems like he might be like love bombing her, right? Like, creating this beautiful sense of a future for them. But you see the pattern everywhere else, which is that he is callous, he doesn't care about other people, he treats them poorly, he dominates people. And so I think we see these personalities in all different versions, or all different aspects of our life, because a personality is a consistent way of thinking, feeling, and behaving.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  And by virtue of it being consistent, that means you take your personality with you wherever you go, right? So sometimes you're at the grocery store, sometimes you're at work, sometimes you're with your family. And so we see these types of personalities, you know, in all different aspects of our life.

• 9:17Mel Robbins?

  I want to hover right there and make sure that I got that. So a personality is a consistent way of being, thinking, behaving, and feeling.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:29Mel Robbins?

  And when we look at this in the context of, you know, poisonous people that are hostile, callous, manipulative, so you're kind of seeing this almost consistent trend of somebody who's hostile towards other people, callous, I don't care, manipulative, I'm going to do what I need to do to get what I need. Before we go even deeper, I cannot wait to dig into this, could you just list quickly for the person who's listening right now, what are the four kinds of dark personalities that we're going to dig into in detail?

• 10:02Speaker 01

  So, personality psychologists talk about four different but overlapping traits as the dark tetrad of personality traits. So we've got-

• 10:11Mel Robbins?

  Does tetrad mean four?

• 10:12Speaker 01

  It sure does.

• 10:13Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:15Mel Robbins?

  I'm learning a lot today.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  You know, we probably-

• 10:17Mel Robbins?

  You're using some big words, Dr. Tenbrink.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  We probably could have come up with like a flashier name for that or something.

• 10:21Mel Robbins?

  Well, I would have thought it would have been a quad if it was four. So tetrad threw me off.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  That might sound better. But anyway, that's what we've gone with. We've got psychopathy.

• 10:29Mel Robbins?

  Psychopathy, okay.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Narcissism.

• 10:32Mel Robbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Machiavellianism.

• 10:35Mel Robbins?

  Uh-huh.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  And sadism.

• 10:37Mel Robbins?

  So these are the four dark personality types, but as you've already said, as we're digging into each one, so we can spot trends.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:47Mel Robbins?

  There may be some overlap.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. So like, that question that I sometimes get, is this person a narcissist or a psychopath? That also suggests that they're like completely separate things, right? And when we get into the definitions, you'll notice that there's a reasonable amount of overlap. So, uh, these traits tend to be moderately correlated. So if you're high in one, chances are you're also higher in others. And so it's not like an either-or kind of thing. It's often like a yes and.

• 11:20Mel Robbins?

  Got you.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:22Mel Robbins?

  After this episode, when you start to apply what we're learning, is it more useful not to label somebody a narcissist, but to go, that's a narcissistic personality style right there, ding ding ding ding ding? Or they have the makings of a sociopath? Like, how do I talk to my, my best friend about this?

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's certainly more accurate to say like, this individual seems like they have high levels of psychopathic personality traits or narcissistic personality traits. I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but it recognizes the fact that, you know, this is a continuum and not, you know, kind of a black and white situation.

• 11:59Mel Robbins?

  Yes. Well, what I also like about that, even though it's a mouthful, is that, I think for so much of my life anyway, and I'm sure as you're listening, you're going to feel the same way, that I have given so much time and energy and experienced so much heartache at the hands of people-

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:18Mel Robbins?

  -that are hostile, callous, and manipulative.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:21Mel Robbins?

  And if I can take a step back and be able to be more of a ninja with this, where I can go, oh, there's a narcissistic personality style.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:33Mel Robbins?

  I think I could recognize it sooner versus thinking you have to label somebody something versus spotting behavior and recognizing, oh, I gotta, I gotta step back from that. I gotta, I gotta recognize that and step back.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:47Mel Robbins?

  Versus just saying, oh, that person is that kind of person, if that makes sense.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I think sometimes we get caught up in like trying to figure out what is the label.

• 12:56Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Is she this or is she that?

• 12:58Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  And that can kind of distract us from like, you know, it doesn't have to be either or, it's just, oh, I see there's callousness coming across in a lot of her behavior. And so now, okay, I'm cued into the callousness and I can try to interact with her in a different way that is going to reduce some of the impact of those personality traits.

• 13:16Mel Robbins?

  I find that to be really helpful.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:20Mel Robbins?

  Because I feel more equipped than to spot it across a continuum versus waiting for behavior to build up to the point where I label somebody.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:29Mel Robbins?

  Let's start with sociopath, because you hear that word thrown around a lot. What actually is a sociopath, Dr. Tenbrink? And how do you spot one?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  So, people with high levels of psychopathy, I've got a visual here.

• 13:41Mel Robbins?

  You do?

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, check this out.

• 13:44Mel Robbins?

  And I want to tell the person who's listening what it is, so you don't feel like you're left out. It is a illustration of a person who is wearing a mask, and behind the mask, you can see that they're either angry, callous, and manipulative, but the mask that they're wearing has a big, smiley, kind of friendly face.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. So, psychopathy is actually a constellation of traits. It's not just one thing, but it's a set of traits that when you kind of put them together, creates psychopathy. I think this illustration is, um, is a good kind of depiction of the mask of sanity. So one of the early researchers who studied psychopathy used this phrase to describe people with high levels of psychopathy. And it's because they, they're incredibly manipulative, and they often come across as very superficially charming. And so like, what you see is not necessarily what you get, right? And so you can see this kind of friendly-looking demeanor on the outside masking that hostility and anger underneath.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  But when I talk about psychopathy being a constellation-

• 14:50Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  -of traits, that means that it's more than just one thing. It all comes together to form psychopathy. One way to chop up those behaviors or those constituent parts of psychopathy has a relatively long history with Dr. Bob Hare. And he broadly mapped those pieces on to being callous, manipulative, impulsive, and antisocial. And so we can go through each of those.

• 15:14Mel Robbins?

  Yes, let's. Like, because I'm like, oh, okay, well, so we hear callous, manipulative, but you also said antisocial.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:23Mel Robbins?

  And what was the other one?

• 15:24Speaker 01

  And impulsive.

• 15:26Mel Robbins?

  Impulsive. What's the impulsivity about?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  The impulsivity is that they tend to respond to risk differently than other people. So they don't do a lot of thinking before they're acting. They tend to be pretty reckless and irresponsible. This might lead to them kind of having a, what we call parasitic lifestyle, like they're mooching off of other people because they're not putting in the like consistent work and planning of planning out a career, a family, all these things that go into life, right? So that's the impulsivity bit. And then antisocial is a proneness to breaking the rules. And this, we've often studied psychopathy in the context of criminal justice settings. And so this could be legal rules, right, that they're breaking, but it doesn't have to be that.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  It can be kind of social norms of kindness or politeness or fairness. It can also be like workplace conduct, right? We've got certain rules in the workplace and they are kind of blatantly disregarding those kinds of things. So, putting all those things together, callous, manipulative, antisocial, impulsive, that's what is the kind of combination that makes up psychopathy.

• 16:33Mel Robbins?

  So when I hear the words psychopath, I think about some sort of horror movie.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:40Mel Robbins?

  And some person running around killing people. Dr. Tenbrink, can you give us an example of two, since this personality trait runs on a continuum?

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:53Mel Robbins?

  What does a subtle version of a psychopath look like, you know, on one continuum? And what might it look like on the other in terms of what you would encounter in your life?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. So, I mean, very low would be someone who is like kind and honest and follows the rules, right? And so that is actually most people.

• 17:17Mel Robbins?

  Gotcha.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Um, very high, but perhaps not that kind of serial killer stereotype-

• 17:25Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  -would be someone who tells a lot of lies, is very superficially charming, so like, they're kind of fun to talk to in the moment, but if you think about the conversation you had later, you're like, none of that really makes sense. There's not a lot of substance to what they said if you examine it in some depth. They don't care. They're like very remorseless, right? Not experiencing a whole lot of guilt, breaking a whole lot of rules, and they're not really thinking too far ahead, right? So you can imagine this kind of personality almost anywhere. You can think about them in the workplace, maybe. You might have a coworker who is very charismatic and everyone loves them at the start, and

• 18:09Speaker 01

  they're always breaking the rules at work, but people see them and they're like, that's a go-getter, they're great, they are so smart, but you, behind the scenes, are like, they don't do their work, they're, they're breaking the rules all of the time.

• 18:22Mel Robbins?

  Uh-huh.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  And they're really more like, you know, talk a big game than actually back it up with the time and the effort that you often need to be good at your job.

• 18:33Mel Robbins?

  That is incredibly helpful. Are there any early warning signs that you may be dealing with this kind of personality type, either in somebody that you're dating, or that your brother's now dating, or in a family member?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  So I mean, you spot one of these individuals again by looking for consistent patterns, right, of these traits over time and across contexts. But there are some early warning signs, right? So if you think about, if you act in these ways consistently over time, if I just happen to pop into your life for like a minute, chances are I might see some of those patterns happening, right? It's not a perfect indicator and I might see new information over time. But there are some things that you can look for. So you can look for things like inappropriate emotional expressions, especially, you know,

• 19:24Speaker 01

  if someone has failed or if someone is hurting, they might look like they're actually enjoying that kind of thing. They might be expressing really hostile language, but smiling at the same time. So you get this kind of like weird emotional presentation. You might also get that superficial charm where it feels, you know, kind of really good in the moment, but if you examine what they actually said, there's not a whole lot of substance there. They tend to be kind of combative, right? So they might be kind of pushing on your personal and professional boundaries. So even if you say, oh, I don't really talk about my family while I'm at work, they keep

• 20:09Speaker 01

  asking you about it. And in addition to that, they might be kind of impulsive in their answers. They're asking, answering very quickly, off the cuff. They interrupt you all the time, but they get really angry if you interrupt them because they tend to like to be kind of dominating or domineering in conversations.

• 20:28Mel Robbins?

  Dr. Tenbrink, thank you for explaining that. I have another question I want to ask you, but I gotta take a quick pause so we can allow our amazing sponsors to share a few words. And if you've been listening and you've ever said to yourself, I don't know why I feel so off after talking to this person, share this episode. Text it to your best friend, send it to your sister, drop it in the group chat at work. You don't need to explain anything. Trust me, when they hit play, they're gonna get it. And don't go anywhere because we have so much more to dig into with Dr. Tenbrink when we return. Stay with me.

• 21:12Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are here with Dr. Leanne Tenbrink and we're talking about what she calls poisonous people, manipulation and how to protect your peace without becoming cynical. All right, Dr. Tenbrink, let's keep going. My next question is, what is Machiavellianism? Did I say that right?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yes, you did.

• 21:32Mel Robbins?

  That's a big word.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  It's so many syllables. So Machiavellianism is a tendency to desire status and control. Like they really want to be in charge. They want to be empowered. They want maybe fame or money, whatever that is. And they have a really amoral approach to manipulation, meaning like they're very willing to kiss someone's butt to get ahead, but they're also just as willing to like spread rumors or tell lies to do that. And they're not particularly bothered. They're just like, what do I need to get to the top of the food chain here? And they're willing to do that.

• 22:09Mel Robbins?

  So does somebody will step on your head or spread lies about you in order to get what they want?

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Yes, we do have a visual. Okay. So this one, we got the chess pieces, right? So he's knocking you off the board.

• 22:22Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Right? So you're in the way, knocking you off the board. I think, you know, what this depicts is essentially is very strategic social style. So like where we talked about psychopathy, having that kind of impulsive nature, right? This is different. This is like they're willing to like kind of plan things out. They're like, oh, Mel told me something kind of embarrassing. I'm gonna like put that in my back pocket and I'll bring that back up later whenever I kind of need to turn the screws on her or something like that.

• 22:53Mel Robbins?

  Is this the kind of person where, I think we've all had that experience where you have this sense that somebody is turning it on and showing up when they need something?

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 23:06Mel Robbins?

  And the second that they have gotten what they needed and used you for a particular purpose, you're gone.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. You know, I spoke to some people who especially at work would see this kind of behavior, very strategic, pushing people out very subtly, managing up to the boss to try to get what they want. And these people tend to be very unsatisfied with their current position and like always gunning for something better. Yeah.

• 23:34Mel Robbins?

  What does this look like in a family?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  That's a great question. You know, usually we think about it at work, but in a family, you know, again, it would be just that desire for power, control over other people and probably very willing to create these divisions maybe between the cousins and the uncles and the whatever, create divisions so that they come out on top. So yeah, it would be very similar, right? And so like we take our personalities with us wherever we go. So same kinds of strategies, but just playing out in a different context.

• 24:12Mel Robbins?

  How do you spot a Machiavellian personality style at work? Like what are some of the behavior patterns that you should just pay attention to?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  What's really going to be helpful here?

• 24:24Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Is talking to other people.

• 24:27Mel Robbins?

  About that person?

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 24:29Mel Robbins?

  Why?

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Okay. So my dear postdoc advisor, Dr. Dacher Keltner.

• 24:35Mel Robbins?

  Yes, who's been on this podcast. We love him, the science of awe.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  He's amazing. He did this study on gossip in a sorority. And essentially he asked everyone to fill out a measure of their Machiavellian traits. And then he also asked the girls who gets talked about like in private conversations, right? Who's well liked? Who has status and who is respected? And what he found is that the people who were gossiped about the most were people who were not well liked, but they were well known. And they weren't well liked because they were highly Machiavellian and people perceived them as having status that they didn't really deserve.

• 25:17Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  And so this is a situation in which it can be really helpful to maybe not take all rumors as face value, right? But like, you know, pay attention because people are going to be talking about these individuals because they're so power hungry and because they are often like stepping over other people to get to where they want to be.

• 25:40Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, it doesn't seem fair that they have the job they have or they have the attention of the boss or they have the title that they have because behind the scenes, we all know they either manipulated their way there or they didn't earn it.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:53Mel Robbins?

  Well, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot. You could, you could see that playing out in a family.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:59Mel Robbins?

  Where you have somebody that becomes the favorite and who is also always stirring up drama and always sucking the energy out of the room.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:07Mel Robbins?

  And it doesn't seem fair.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. And it can be hard to see, you know, because they use manipulation and they use it quite strategically, like it can be hard to see through at the start. I think that's what's hard about all of these personality traits is that they've got manipulation at the core of them, right?

• 26:23Mel Robbins?

  How do you define manipulation?

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Manipulation is just the, the willingness to use other people to your own ends. And so you are, you know, you're essentially like pulling the strings on other people, changing their perspective, perhaps by telling lies or half truths. Yeah.

• 26:41Mel Robbins?

  So it sounds like, because I was about to say, aren't we all like using other people? But what you just said, though, is very important. You basically said you're, you're willing to do whatever it takes to use people. Like I suppose on some level, we all hope that our friends reciprocate.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:57Mel Robbins?

  We all hope that by, you know, being loving and kind, you're gonna get it back. But that's not a form of manipulation because I'm not deceiving you in some ways. Is that a fair way to think about it? Because I, I often struggle with the fact that, you know, this is kind of probably a conversation for after we finish these four personality traits, but here's something I struggle with. Like I know people are wildly stressed out and overwhelmed.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:21Mel Robbins?

  And there's a lot going on with the state of the world and you never know what somebody is dealing with. And I also recognize that you typically are not dealing with the actual person in front of you. You're dealing with their childhood issues and their emotional state, whether or not they've eaten anything and their tolerance for emotions and blobbity, blobbity, blobbity, blah. But, and so I often try to give people the benefit of the doubt from a very safe distance.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:54Mel Robbins?

  But we are living in a moment in time where the behavior of people in public, the behavior of people online, the acting out in families, it just seems like toxic behavior has skyrocketed. And so I am just trying to disertain when you know

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:19Mel Robbins?

  that somebody's truly being manipulative versus somebody is having a super bad week.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:27Mel Robbins?

  Or they're just really at a point because of the stuff going on that you don't know about, that they're emotionally flooded.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 28:35Mel Robbins?

  And they didn't intend to be this way, but they're walking all over. Do you know what I mean?

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Totally. So you could be consistently callous and manipulative, right?

• 28:44Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  And therefore you probably have high levels of these dark traits. But that doesn't mean that the rest of us are never callous and manipulative, right? And there's often situations that are more likely to bring that behavior out.

• 28:59Mel Robbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  So, and you're right, that the world right now seems like it is pushing on a lot of those situational factors that increase the likelihood that we'll behave in these kinds of ways. So, I mean, we can probably all think of a time when we were not our best selves, right?

• 29:15Mel Robbins?

  I feel bad about that, though.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:16Mel Robbins?

  And I apologize for it. And I then beat myself up over it. And what you're saying, I, I'm starting to disertain, Dr. Tenbrink, is that a person with dark personality traits actually does not?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  No, no. I mean, especially psychopathy, a lack of guilt and remorse is like core to what that personality is.

• 29:38Mel Robbins?

  Is that the kind of person that also holds grudges?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

• 29:44Mel Robbins?

  Obviously, I'm thinking of somebody that I know.

• 29:48Mel Robbins?

  Dr. Tenbrink, what's the number one sign you're being manipulated?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  So if this person wants something from you, you know, maybe it's your time, your money, your influence, and if they seem to be a different person around you than everyone else, I think that's a big red flag that you're not seeing who they are. So, you know, early in romantic relationships, we'll hear about, you know, love bombing and, you know, this person seemed like the perfect partner. They were always texting me. They sent flowers. They want the same things that I want out of this relationship. All seems great, just the two of us, but like, look at how they treat the Uber driver, the barista,

• 30:33Speaker 01

  the like hostess at the restaurant, especially when they don't think you're looking. And if you start to see that, like, consistent kind of cruel treatment of people that are not you, I think that pattern is going to come for you eventually, because the broader pattern is bad, is a dark personality kind of pattern. Eventually, you're not going to be the exception anymore. You're going to become part of the rule. And I think, yeah, seeing that kind of deviation, when you are, you are the deviation, that I think is a, is a problem.

• 31:09Mel Robbins?

  Let's talk about narcissism. So what is the clearest sign that you're dealing with somebody that has the dark personality of narcissism?

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Okay, got another visual. Narcissism. All right. So here we've got someone looking into a broken mirror, and you see kind of like the cracks in the facade here. And I think essentially what this is kind of pointing out is that what you see is not really what you get. Actually, this signifies to me kind of like a vulnerable type of narcissism, where their ego is actually really easily shattered. Grandiose narcissism is kind of the opposite of that, where their ego like cannot be deflated, even though they're getting kind of feedback that it should be. But at the core of both of those kinds of

• 31:58Speaker 01

  narcissism is entitlement and exploitation of other people in order to get that, what they think they deserve, which is more than most other people. And I think it's really helpful to try to identify those things early if you can, because those traits look really attractive early on, and they are the exact same traits that lead to problems a little bit later. So there's this one study that I love, Delroy Paulhaus at UBC. He did this study of groups of students, and they were working together over the course of a term, right? And week one, they all, you know, got together in their new groups, and they

• 32:42Speaker 01

  made these little like first impressions of people. And it turns out that the people who were the most narcissistic in those groups were originally seen as like really agreeable, really well-adjusted, and very competent.

• 32:55Mel Robbins?

  Really? That was the first impression?

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it-

• 32:59Mel Robbins?

  Agreeable?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And then, week seven, he asked them to do those same ratings, again. Those same people were seen as arrogant braggarts, who were actually really hostile and who overestimated their abilities, right? So it's kind of like, there's this sheen at the start, and it quickly wears off when you start to realize, like, the person they are putting forward is not the person they actually are. So there tends to be a lot of self-enhancement. Some early cues might be having lots of confidence, coming across very confident in your kind of verbal and nonverbal presentation, the way you carry

• 33:42Speaker 01

  yourself. They tend to be very concerned about their physical appearance, so putting, they tend to be quite stylish and like put a lot of effort into their appearance. And so it can be really hard to kind of pull apart, what is the real person, and what is the impression that they're trying to make? And sometimes it's like time that is going to reveal that.

• 34:05Mel Robbins?

  You know, you said that there were kind of the two camps of the narcissistic personalities, one being grandiose, which I think we all have somebody in mind you can think of that represents that-

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:18Mel Robbins?

  -whether it's in your family, or at work, or, you know, in public here in the United States. But vulnerable-

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:26Mel Robbins?

  Because I think these can be sneakier-

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:29Mel Robbins?

  And like, you don't realize that's what you're dealing with. And so can you talk a little bit about how the vulnerable narcissistic personality shows up? Like, what are we looking for? Because I think this one's really sneaky.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So with respect to vulnerable narcissism, like the entitlement and the willingness to exploit other people is still involved, just like for grandiose-

• 34:55Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  -narcissism. But they tend to have a real fragility to their ego, like they're, they're almost looking for, you know, your admiration to prop up something that's like not there, right? And they tend to be very defensive and somewhat avoidant. And I think learning a little bit about what triggers these two different kind of types of narcissists is actually pretty revealing. So the grandiose type tends to get very angry when there's like a failure, because they, they are supposed to be incredible and amazing, and they're going to be pissed whenever, you know, they don't get that job, they don't get the promotion,

• 35:36Speaker 01

  they don't get, you know, the raise at work. Whereas for a vulnerable narcissist, because they're kind of getting that ego boost from other people, it's rejection that really upsets them. And so if, you know, they get broken up with, or, you know, someone just doesn't treat them very nicely, you know, they tend to really react strongly to that kind of thing.

• 35:59Mel Robbins?

  How can this show up in a family, especially in the vulnerable narcissist? Like, is this the person that flies off the handle because you can't make it home this weekend? Is this the person that's just constantly giving you the guilt trip if you're not doing everything you wanted them to do because meeting expectations?

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:19Mel Robbins?

  If you don't do it, it's the rejection piece?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:22Mel Robbins?

  Like, how does this show up in a family?

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I mean, they're going to have those same traits, right? So the entitlement, whatever they want the family to do-

• 36:31Mel Robbins?

  After everything I've done for you.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. Very willing to manipulate people, so using guilt trip, whatever it would be that would like work to kind of push you around. And in addition to that, it's like rejection. So yeah, if you don't come to the birthday party, if you don't make it to the retirement party or whatever, you don't come home for Christmas, that is going to really, you know, set someone with vulnerable narcissism off, whereas someone who's more grandiose narcissism, like, it's kind of dirt off their shoulder, right? So like, they're, they're them, they're big, whatever. Yeah, exactly.

• 37:09Mel Robbins?

  Gotcha. Okay, that's so interesting. And I want you to hold that thought, Dr. Tenbrink, because we're going to take a quick break so our sponsors can have a moment to share a few words. And don't go anywhere, we're going to be right back.

• 37:31Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are here with Dr. Leanne Tenbrink. We're talking about dark personalities and how to spot them in real life, and exactly what to do and not do to protect yourself. All right, Dr. Tenbrink, let's just jump right back in. Here's the next thing I wanted to ask you. What about the fourth dark personality, which is sadism? What is sadism?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Sadism is essentially having an appetite for cruelty.

• 37:57Mel Robbins?

  Ooh. Oh.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:00Mel Robbins?

  Oh, I don't, oh, really?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's centered around finding enjoyment in the pain of other people.

• 38:06Mel Robbins?

  Enjoyment?

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:07Mel Robbins?

  Oh. Like, oh, God, that's awful.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. So we've got a depiction of this one, too.

• 38:14Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Sadism. Okay.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  So here, we've got someone who is, you know, taking some control over the situation. I might actually like add like little knives or something.

• 38:27Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my gosh. So this is a visual that Dr. Tenbrink is holding. If you're listening, there's a person that's big above and then a little person that's almost like on puppet strings being manipulated. But you're saying they take pleasure in hurting other people. And so if you were to add anything, you would literally stab the person that's at the end of the... Oh, my, that's terrible.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, they get enjoyment out of pain. And what's so interesting about your reaction is like, yeah, there are those like very extreme versions of this. Like when I was an undergrad, I was coding these descriptions of sexual homicides. And I was coding them for evidence of gratuitous violence and sadistic violence. And those are obviously these like very extreme examples, right? But there's more like everyday versions.

• 39:13Mel Robbins?

  Like what?

• 39:14Speaker 01

  So things like enjoying really violent sports, maybe, you know, enjoying, you know, you're scrolling through Instagram or something and you see a video of a kid getting hit with a soccer ball and you find that funny, like little kind of everyday sadism is what it's called. And I think we think of these people as like, you know, monsters, right? But we can probably all think of a time when we felt something sort of adjacent. So let me try this on you. So imagine that you are thinking about someone really powerful, maybe a politician, a CEO of some company that you dislike, and they are walking across the stage to give a speech, and they trip and they fall. Like, how do you react?

• 39:56Mel Robbins?

  Um, you know, I guess I might be like, you deserve that.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, there might be like a little smirk might come on your face, just for a second.

• 40:07Mel Robbins?

  You know why? And you know what I would call it? Karma. She just came for you because you didn't deserve that, you know,

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:13Mel Robbins?

  title. And so I can see what you mean by like, that's a example of like a micro sadism.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this is, the Germans have a great word for this is schadenfreude. And it is taking joy in the misfortune of someone else. And often we experience this when it's someone who's in like a position of power and they kind of fall or falter or something like that. And so that's, yeah, kind of like an everyday sadism kind of experience.

• 40:41Mel Robbins?

  Well, let me tease that a little bit more. Because I was very intrigued when you said a micro everyday form of sadism is watching very violent sports.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 40:50Mel Robbins?

  Or maybe even watching extremely violent horror movies.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:55Mel Robbins?

  And really seeing that as a form of entertainment that you like. And when I think about the example of somebody that you don't like, tripping, and you taking a small amount of like, hmm, there's a part of me that feels like it's justice. You know what I'm saying? For somebody who doesn't deserve the power that they have.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 41:18Mel Robbins?

  How do you know the difference between something that might feel like they're getting what's due versus taking pleasure in seeing someone else suffer? If that makes sense, or is it is the same thing and I'm just putting a better label on it?

• 41:32Speaker 01

  I think what it would be is just kind of like different places on that spectrum.

• 41:36Mel Robbins?

  Got it. Okay.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Right? So like, someone who scores really high on sadism might be like, oh, yeah, I love, you know, violent sports. I love violent video games because I enjoy seeing, you know, the heads blow off the characters or whatever. And I also love, I also love trolling people online because it gives me kind of a thrill to just like

• 41:54Mel Robbins?

  Bring people down.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And so they might also feel schadenfreude, right? But they would be like, yes, yes, yes, to like all of these different items that we present to them. And you would be like, yeah, a little bit on one item, right? So you would be pretty low on that spectrum and they would be pretty high.

• 42:10Mel Robbins?

  So when there's a pile on online, and people are just tearing somebody down, those are examples of micro sadism?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there's great research showing that people who score higher in sadism also tend to be more likely to engage in online trolling. And it's actually like a small proportion of the internet. It feels like a lot of the internet, right? But it's actually a pretty small proportion of people.

• 42:36Mel Robbins?

  Why should micro sadism, somebody in your life that is really into violent sports or love seeing heads blown off and video games, should that concern you?

• 42:48Speaker 01

  I think as with all of these things, I kind of file them away. And I'm like, I'm gonna hold on to that red flag. And I'm going to think about how I need to interact with you, and whether this personality trait is going to get in the way of that. If you've got like, I don't know, a brother or a cousin who's like, I love UFC. I mean, this is not necessarily like a throw them away kind of situation, right? It's like, he might, you know, score relatively low on all of the other aspects of sadism, and not a problem whatsoever. It might be part of a personality pattern that is a much bigger problem.

• 43:28Mel Robbins?

  Gotcha.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  And so you're looking for evidence of this like over time and across context. It's not just in sports, right? It's not just in conversations with you. It's also at work. It's also, you know, at home with his own family.

• 43:41Mel Robbins?

  So Dr. Tenbrink, what are the signs that someone is being terrible, just temporarily, versus they truly have dark personality traits?

• 43:58Speaker 01

  So if you're just coming into the situation at that moment, it's gonna be very difficult to discern. What you really need is time.

• 44:07Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Because someone who has high levels of these dark traits are that way consistently across time and context. Whereas someone who, you know, is stressed, is tired, is hungry, etc., and they do something callous, they do something cruel, that is a deviation from their normal

• 44:29Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  pattern of behavior. So having like a bigger scope of information about this person is going to help you to see whether that's like, that tracks, or more like, oh, that was a weird thing that they just did.

• 44:41Mel Robbins?

  You know, Dr. Tenbrink, you say that within 10 seconds, even of meeting somebody, you can spot a dark personality trait. What are you looking for?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Okay. So bit of a good news, bad news situation here is that good news, people with very little training can detect with some kernel of truth, the extent to which someone has psychopathic personality traits, or not just like five seconds.

• 45:07Mel Robbins?

  Five seconds?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Five seconds of their behavior. It's not perfect, and it might need to be updated over time. But let's talk about this research. So this is work done by Scott Lillenfeld and his colleagues. And he had videos of men who were incarcerated. They were actually doing a semi structured interview with a psychologist that was part of a psychopathy assessment. And so he had trained psychologists who were doing this long interview and like criminal case review to try to assess these personality traits. And then he took five seconds or like 10 second clips of this interview and showed them to people who just had, you know, a little definition of what psychopathy was, kind of like we did earlier in this episode.

• 45:52Mel Robbins?

  And just for a refresher, psychopathy is when you are manipulative and callous, but you also are a rule breaker and you're impulsive. Is that right?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 46:06Mel Robbins?

  You got it. Okay. Got you.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So gave completely untrained people that little definition that you just gave, and five seconds of their behavior and said, you know, where do you think they fall on this kind of spectrum of psychopathy? And the ratings that these untrained people gave were reasonably correlated with the trained psychologists who had the benefit of like a much longer interview and this criminal case file review.

• 46:32Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  So we're like, what are they looking at? Right? So my colleagues and I, we reached out to Scott and we're like, can we get these videos? We want to code. We want to know what people are looking at. And what we found was that... The people with high levels of psychopathy were saying really hostile things and smiling broadly. We call it a Duchenne smile with you. You've got those little crinkles around your eyes that go along with the upturned lips.

• 47:04Mel Robbins?

  All I heard was douche. And I'm like, okay, yeah, it sounds like somebody would smile as they're saying something like cruel. Yes.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So we're getting this like extreme kind of discordance between the things they're saying and the way that they're expressing it. And people kind of naturally were like, that's weird. I think that's associated with psychopathy. And that was a reasonably useful cue in this case. There are other things that you can look forward to. So high psychopathy folks are more likely to interrupt you in conversation, but refuse to be interrupted themselves. They ignore those personal and professional boundaries. They might be kind of like oddly calm. So like, they're not showing guilt or shame whenever you would expect that to be the case, which they have an air of moral superiority

• 47:54Speaker 01

  about them. They might be unusually angry. And they might get frustrated when they can't bait you into an argument. Like if you don't take the bait, like they're looking for that hostility. And if you don't give it to them, they can get frustrated. So like, none of these are a Pinocchio's nose, right? They're not, there's no one behavior that's always going to be like, all people with high levels of psychopathy do this all of the time. But if you start seeing this pattern unfolding, you know, across multiple interactions, that's when you can be, you know, increasingly confident that that this personality trait is present.

• 48:34Mel Robbins?

  Why are people with dark personality traits so often in leadership and powerful roles?

• 48:41Speaker 01

  This is a great question, which I've spent many, many a moon thinking about. There's, I think, a whole bunch of different reasons. The first one, I think we overlook, which is just that they want it. When we study narcissism, often we have people do self-report. So they're just reporting on their own personality. One of those items is, I am a born leader. You're like, how much do you agree with that statement? If you're like, yeah, I am a born leader, then you're probably also gunning for that promotion at work. Like, you're going to be more likely to put yourself forward for a high status position. So that's one thing. Another is that we tend to be really blinded by their confidence. Like, we confuse

• 49:25Speaker 01

  confidence with competence. And so when people, you know, come across with like, a lot of bravado, they say they can, and they have done all of these incredible things, and they seem very self-assured, we believe it. And whenever you're talking about people who tend to be pumping themselves up and are willing to lie to, in order to get what they want, like, that can be quite misleading.

• 49:51Mel Robbins?

  What is gaslighting Dr. Tenbrink? And what is not gaslighting?

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think people throw around like, are you gaslighting me? Like, even when there's like, a little bit of confusion, or like, you interpreted a situation a little bit differently than I did. Or, you know, if something doesn't make sense to them. And there's, there's like, a kernel of truth in the way that we're using that. But it's certainly overused. It's not just, you know, having a different perspective on things. It's not just a disagreement. It is a type of psychological and emotional abuse that involves someone attempting to make another person feel crazy by creating this kind of like surreal environment around them. So it's not just like isolating, or intimidating,

• 50:42Speaker 01

  or minimizing someone. It's trying to make them like, not trust their own mind, their own, their memories, their reactions, their like, experience of the world. And our brains are essentially like prediction machines. And so whenever we get feedback from another person that like, all the predictions that you are making are wrong, it can be really destabilizing. And, and I think what's most concerning about it is when you start to feel like, I can't trust my own mind's interpretation of events. So I need your interpretation.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  And that can create this real sense of dependence on another person and isolation from other people. I mean, compared to other types of abuse, we actually have relatively little research on gaslighting. But we do know that people with high levels of dark personality traits endorse this kind of behavior in romantic relationships. People were asked, what do you think about, you know, telling someone that, you know, that didn't actually happen that way? Or their reactions are completely outsized, or trying to make them doubt their experience of the world. And people with higher levels of all the dark personality

• 52:03Speaker 01

  traits that we talked about today were like, that seems fine. So, that can be, you know, incredibly destabilizing and difficult to get out of.

• 52:15Mel Robbins?

  Can a person with a dark personality change?

• 52:18Speaker 01

  So, personalities can change. They tend to change very little over time, especially if people are not committed to that kind of change. And people with dark personalities tend not to be very concerned about changing themselves.

• 52:33Mel Robbins?

  Well, if your call is manipulative and hostile.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:37Mel Robbins?

  Then why would you change?

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. They see it as more of, this is a you problem, not a me problem, right? So they tend not to have a whole lot of commitment to therapy. Now, the research that we do have, say, on psychopathy in particular, suggests that if people will stay in therapy for like, multiple sessions, they can reduce, it's almost like a harm reduction in their behavior. So most of this research is with incarcerated men. And the outcome that we're looking at is recidivism. So likelihood that they will commit another offense when they get released. And the guys who stick with treatment longer are less likely to engage

• 53:20Speaker 01

  in recidivism and come back to prison. So that's amazing. That's an improvement. They do not become dramatically different people. Like, they don't become, you know, the most kind and honest person. We're not looking at a personality 180 here. But you can get reduction in some of perhaps more problematic behaviors.

• 53:38Mel Robbins?

  Well, the reason why I ask you that is because I remember Dr. Romani Diversila, who specializes in narcissistic personality disorders, once said something to me that changed the way that I forever deal with a person in my life who clearly has all the traits. And what she basically said is, the single thing that is creating so much pain and frustration, when you're dealing with somebody, once you recognize these dark traits, is your belief and hope that the other person will change.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:13Mel Robbins?

  And holding out hope for a fantasy of what might happen if you twist yourself in knots, or you stay for 10 more years, or you just lower your voice, or you bake more cupcakes, or have more sex, or show up at Christmas, that that hope for the fantasy

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:30Mel Robbins?

  keeps you from recognizing the reality of what you're dealing with.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:36Mel Robbins?

  Do you have any thoughts on sort of that perspective?

• 54:40Speaker 01

  I think she's totally right, is that my commitment to someone else changing really doesn't have anything to do with their commitment or ability to change. And so, someone's personality is, as we've been talking about, their consistent way of thinking, feeling, and behaving, not how you feel about it. That's not part of the definition. So like, your reaction to their personality.

• 55:05Mel Robbins?

  Or wish.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, or wish.

• 55:06Mel Robbins?

  Or dream.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  It's not part of it. It's not relevant. And, but it hurts whenever you are like, I'm doing all of the things that I can possibly do to change you. I think there are ways that we can approach interactions with people with dark personalities to make them a little smoother, to like, make, it just makes it like, less likely that this interaction is going to ruin my whole day. It's not going to change their personality, but it's gonna just like, okay, we can reduce the stress, like, day to day interaction, interaction.

• 55:37Mel Robbins?

  Okay. So let's take an example. So, as you've been listening to Dr. Tenbrink, I bet you're imagining somebody that you have to deal with, whether they're in your family, or they're somebody that you see at work, or they're in your friend group. Maybe it's a neighbor who is particularly difficult and hostile to deal with. Or maybe it's your ex. Like, a lot of people have situations with exes, especially when there's custody issues, that have a lot of dark personality stuff coming up. So when you recognize that you're dealing with somebody with these traits, and you also recognize the truth, that you

• 56:18Mel Robbins?

  have no control over them changing, but when you recognize this situation, you could maybe change how you approach a situation to reduce its impact on you.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:31Mel Robbins?

  I would love for you to speak directly to the person who's listening, because you have taught us so much today. And really helped us to see both that this is on a continuum, that there's only certain things you can control, which is how you're going to show up. And that there are things to do here, one of them not being that the other person's changing. If the person listening takes just one action after hearing everything that you've taught us, what do you think the most important thing to do after listening to this is?

• 57:07Speaker 01

  I think it's to slow down because personality is a pattern. We keep talking about this over and over again. And it's a pattern that as a spouse, or as a friend, or a coworker, you don't have a whole lot of ability to change, right? So take some time to get to know someone before you commit in whatever ways you need to commit to that relationship. I think we're all looking for like this magic bullet, this like one behavior I can see. And you can be like, you're in and you're out, right? But that's kind of like trying to see an entire puzzle and you're just holding one piece in your hand. And so I think in addition to slowing down, don't do it alone. Like, we know that we are better at detecting lies, at discerning people's personalities,

• 57:50Speaker 01

  and at managing relationships when we do it with other people that we trust and we know. And maintaining that supportive social network is just so important. Like, you're going to need them to identify the bad apple. You're going to need them if you've got to get out of a situation with a bad apple. And so they're going to help you escape if you decide to leave, and they're going to help you muddle through it if you decide to stay. And so like staying connected to other people, I think, is so important.

• 58:17Mel Robbins?

  Dr. Tenbrink, what are your parting words?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  So I think it's important to end this conversation by like putting it into context, right? So about 1% of the general population would meet the clinical criteria for psychopathy. About 10% of the population, on average, would like agree with the self-report statements that we use to measure dark personality traits. And that sounds like a lot, Mel. It does. But it's so important to flip that statistic around. That means nine out of 10 people are not callous and manipulative and impulsive and antisocial. They are honest and they are kind and they are helpful. And if you take the time to get to know people, I bet you'll be surprised at how many good people there are out there.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  There's such a lack of trust in society right now. And I think some of it is really misplaced. So I hope people don't let this malevolent feud that can have such a huge negative impact on our lives keep us from enjoying a life with all the benevolent, amazing people out there.

• 59:22Mel Robbins?

  Oh, Dr. Tenbrink, I'm so happy you ended there. Because you're right, after you hear all this, you start to just feel like you're in a dark cave surrounded by dark personalities.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it can be a bummer.

• 59:32Mel Robbins?

  The bigger zoom out is that it's probably one person. It's probably one person that has been causing the massive amount of stress in your life.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:44Mel Robbins?

  And I really hope that as you've been listening, you take to heart what Dr. Tenbrink has taught us and understand that when you spot these traits, okay, you now recognize what you're dealing with. And you've got to assume this person's not changing. And if you're going to choose to continue to be around them, you can be smarter about how you're showing up. And you can think about what motivates a dark personality, right?

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:15Mel Robbins?

  And just get very strategic about the way you deal with this person.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it can feel like, you know, it's a dark personalities world and we're just living in it. But if we can learn how to identify those people and like either avoid or approach those interactions a little more strategically, it means that we can dramatically reduce the amount of stress and pain that we feel throughout our lives. But just learning how to deal with like one person a little bit more effectively.

• 1:00:43Mel Robbins?

  Well, we all have that one person that's causing 90% of the stress. So I appreciate that you walked us through all of this in depth and really explained it so we can see what's just normal stress and immaturity, and what's really something that you need to protect yourself from. So, Dr. Tenbrink, thank you, thank you, thank you.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  Thank you, Mel.

• 1:01:05Mel Robbins?

  And thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to this. And one more thing, in case no one else tells you today, as your friend, I wanted to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And I think one of the things that helps you create a better life is recognizing the truth of what and who you're dealing with. Taking a step back, remember Dr. Tenbrink said, pause, assess, and then be strategic about how you move forward. Because when you start being more strategic about how you relate to other people, I promise you, your life is going to get a whole lot better. So go do it. All righty, I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play.

• 1:01:51Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 1:01:53Mel Robbins?

  Dr. Tenbrink, how do you, how do you support someone? Okay, and they're starting to change for the worse? Wait, how do you, and you don't even, and they don't even? And thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to this. And in case, is that how, wait, Jesus Christ, I'm starting to lose it with my hand. Okay, so read the last line again, Tracy. I'm sorry, everybody.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Uh, you choose, uh, and if you're going to choose to continue to be around them, you can be smarter about how you're showing up, and you can think about what motivates a dark personality.

• 1:02:22Mel Robbins?

  And I personally love knowing that we can both be more strategic, given that there are dark personalities out there. Well, okay, wait, what?

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  I think it's like, and I'm so.

• 1:02:34Mel Robbins?

  And thank you for watching all the way to the end here on YouTube. And if you're thinking, okay, what should I watch next? You are going to love this video. Oh, my God. Thank, now look, there are always, okay.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  I think more because there will always.

• 1:02:48Mel Robbins?

  Okay, got you, right. Gotcha. Now, Dr. Tenbrink has fascinating research about how to spot, how to spot a dark personality trait in, how to dark. Dr. Tenbrink also has fascinating research about how to spot a dark personality type in less than 10, in 10 seconds. Okay, sorry.

• 1:03:13Mel Robbins?

  Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.