#591 - Ro Khanna

Ro Khanna is the congressman for California’s 17th district and a member of the Democratic Party. He is originally from Philadelphia, PA and also served as co-chair on Bernie Sanders’ presidential campaign in 2020. Rep. Ro Khanna joins Theo to talk about going bi-partisan to stop America’s involvement in another war, his thoughts on the rise of AI as the representative for Silicon Valley, and what needs to happen for future generations to still achieve the American dream. Ro Khanna: https://x.com/RepRoKhanna ------------------------------------------------ Tour Dates! https://theovon.com/tour New Merch: https://www.theovonstore.com ------------------------------------------------- Sponsored By: Celsius: Go to the Celsius Amazon store to check out all of their flavors. #CELSIUSBrandPartner #CELSIUSLiveFit https://amzn.to/3HbAtPJ Moonpay: Head over to https://www.moonpay.com/theo to sign up Shopify: Go to http://shopify.com/theo to use Shopify to help build your business. Liquid IV.: Go to http://liquidiv.com to get 20% off your first order with code THEO at checkout. Symmetry Sauna: Go to http://symmetrysauna.com/THEO to learn more ------------------------------------------------- Music: “Shine” by Bishop Gunn Bishop Gunn - Shine ------------------------------------------------ Submit your funny videos, TikToks, questions and topics you'd like to hear on the podcast to: [email protected] Hit the Hotline: 985-664-9503 Video Hotline for Theo Upload here: https://www.theovon.com/fan-upload Send mail to: This Past Weekend 1906 Glen Echo Rd PO Box #159359 Nashville, TN 37215 ------------------------------------------------ Find Theo: Website: https://theovon.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/theovon Facebook: https://facebook.com/theovon Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thispastweekend Twitter: https://twitter.com/theovon YouTube: https://youtube.com/theovon Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheoVonClips Shorts Channel: https://bit.ly/3ClUj8z ------------------------------------------------ Producer: Zach https://www.instagram.com/zachdpowers Producer: Trevyn https://www.instagram.com/trevyn.s/ Producer: Nick https://www.instagram.com/realnickdavis/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Theo Von?

  California, we've got some new tour dates for you. I'll be in Los Angeles on August 14th at the Dolby Theatre. Anaheim on the August 16th at the Honda Center. And Oceanside on August 17th at Front Wave Arena. Get your tickets early this Thursday, June 19th with code RATKING. 10 a.m. local time. General on sale begins Friday, June 20th. Get your tickets only at theovon.com/TOUR. Please avoid any scalper sites. And thank you so much. This is the Return of the Rat Tour. Almost over. I promise it's almost over. And thank you guys so much for all the support.

• 1:13Theo Von?

  Today's guest is a United States Congressman from California's 17th District. That is Silicon Valley. He's from Philadelphia. His parents immigrated from India. He worked with Bernie Sanders. He was his co-chair on Sanders' presidential campaign in 2020. I'm grateful for his time. He's a member of the Democratic Party. Today's guest is Congressman Ro Khanna.

• 1:53Theo Von?

  Uh, Rohana, is that right?

• 1:56Speaker 02

  That's right. Perfect.

• 1:57Theo Von?

  Nice. Thank you for coming in today, man. Thanks for, uh, thanks for meeting up and just, uh, being willing to come and chat. Um, you are Indian? Your family is Indian?

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Indian heritage, yeah.

• 2:07Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  My parents immigrated from India. Uh, my grandfather, actually, uh, Amrath Vidyalankar, spent years in jail fighting for India's independence as part of Gandhi's independence movement. And then, uh, my parents, uh, came and settled in Philadelphia.

• 2:25Theo Von?

  Hmm.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  That's where I was born.

• 2:26Theo Von?

  Do a lot of Indian people, is that a, is a, you know how some places in America are certain like kind of spots where people start to come? Is that a, is that a popular place that a lot of Indian people have gone to over the years?

• 2:35Speaker 02

  You know, where I grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, there were a few Indian families, but it was 99% white. Uh, the bigger places are New Jersey. Have you ever been to, uh, Edison, New Jersey?

• 2:46Theo Von?

  I don't think so.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Uh, Edison, it's got a lot of Indian food. Have you eaten Indian food?

• 2:49Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah. I've had some good Indian food.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  What's your favorite dish?

• 2:52Theo Von?

  Um, I think it's like the one, it's like, uh, where you all sit in a circle and everybody kind of like catches a cold together or whatever, whatever.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Catches a cold?

• 3:01Theo Von?

  No, I just mean like, everybody's like kind of sharing off of the same plate.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is a very sure thing. You gotta come to Fremont sometime in California. That's the best Indian food in the, in the country. But Fremont, Silicon Valley, a lot of Indian families, New York, New Jersey. You know, but my upbringing was interesting because I was one of the few Indian kids growing up in, uh, Pennsylvania. And, uh, you know, I grew up though with a lot of people who, teachers who believed in me, Little League coaches who believed in me. Uh, and, uh, at times I would get teased being Indian, but by and large, uh, it made me very hopeful about the country.

• 3:36Theo Von?

  Hmm. Yeah, man. Well, thanks. Um, I know we wanted to talk about, I'm trying to think, I actually wrote some questions down today because I feel like it's important.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  This is, this is like Meet the Press. You got, you got the, you're, you're, you're on, on a different level. I, I thought, you know, the thing I love about your show is it's kind of, uh, just you talking like a regular person.

• 3:55Theo Von?

  Maybe you're right. Should I put these away, you think?

• 3:57Speaker 02

  I mean, no, you, you can give it a try. I mean-

• 4:00Theo Von?

  I think you know why I think this is what I realized. I was like, man, I have sometimes I have conversations with people that I want to be able to get more information from and I can't remember everything, right?

• 4:12Speaker 02

  But you know what the thing about you is I'm not saying this to flatter you. A lot of times you'll ask questions and they're like deeper and smarter than some of the Sunday talk show hosts. And I think it's because you actually talk to real people. And it's sort of like, well, how does this affect my buddy? How does this affect real people? So you could give it a try when they

• 4:29Theo Von?

  Well, we'll do a mix. How about this? We, um, I know how we got in touch is you and I have like similar thoughts on different topics online, right?

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:37Theo Von?

  Well, let's just start with Iran or Iran. People say it differently, but do you think we're headed into World War III here? What do you think's going on?

• 4:44Speaker 02

  I'm really concerned. I'm fearful. We have a possibility where we're going to blunder into another war in the Middle East. And just today, actually, to make some news, Thomas Massey, who's a principled Republican and myself, introduced a war powers resolution saying that the president should not get into a war with Iran without coming to Congress. You know, the president, to his credit, ran against the war in Iraq. He ran saying, I don't want any wars. And the reality is that if we strike Iran, they start hitting us back and hitting our troops in the Middle East terrorist activity. That's going to cost this country a

• 5:28Speaker 02

  lot of money that should be being spent here at home. It's going to mean people could die who are serving the country.

• 5:35Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah. Well, let's take a look at this, at the bill that you guys were thinking about. What is it called?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  It's called the War Powers Resolution to Stop a War in Iran, which basically says, before the president does anything to go into war with Iran, he's got to get a vote in Congress.

• 5:50Theo Von?

  And how long does that take, though? Like usually to get a vote in Congress? Like, is there a certain period of time? Like, can they do it in 24 hours? It takes weeks or what?

• 5:56Speaker 02

  They could. It's the decision of the Speaker of the House to when he can bring it. He has to bring it within 15 days. But what we want is today. But by the way, you know, there are a lot of Trump supporters who are telling him, don't go into this war. Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Greene.

• 6:12Theo Von?

  Oh, Dave Smith was talking about it. He's a political, he's a comedian who also talks a lot about politics, you know? Oh, I think it's, this is a horrible idea, you know? You know, and yeah, people will say, well, you don't know a ton about the Middle East. Like, that's fine. I don't want People I know, my friends, getting called up. I don't want

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Seriously.

• 6:29Theo Von?

  Uh, the children of my friends getting called over to die. Um, it, I don't even understand how it's an option. The only reason I even kind of want it to be possible is to give, is that if Israel like goes to war with Iran, then it'll, they'll at least stop killing Palestinian people for a day or two, right? You know what I'm saying? Like, that's like my own, it's like, at least if, point the guns that way, you know, kind of, that's where some of my thoughts are.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Look, you've been such a courageous voice on, on Gaza. I mean, you look at what's going on there, right? Fifty-five thousand people killed. Now, Israel says some terrorists, and they're right, some terrorists, but most of them, women and children.

• 7:10Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  You've got a hundred and thirty thousand people injured. You've got over six hundred thousand kids who are not in school there. You've got the entire population of Gaza being forced into a corner, southern corner of Gaza. And then you've got, uh, over four hundred thousand people who are starving, who don't have enough food to live a decent life.

• 7:36Theo Von?

  Yeah. And the saddest part, I feel like, is you see this and you're like, somebody should come help them. That's my first thought a lot of times. And then the saddest thought for me after that is, we should come out. Like, it feels like America is the group that would go to help that situation usually.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  That's, we're the good guys, right? I mean, we were the good guys in World War II. We saved the world from Nazism. We were the good guys in the Cold War. We stood up the Soviet Union. People want to think that we are the good guys. Why are we helping Netanyahu in the killing of children, women, and so many Palestinian civilians? Now, look, Israel was hard hit October 7th. I'm sure, like many people, you thought that was horrific, the October 7th attack.

• 8:25Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  And neither of us have any sympathy for Hamas. They're a terrorist group. But what happened is, I supported initially, Israel saying, go get those terrorists who committed those horrific attacks on October 7th. But by, within three months, they had destroyed a lot of Hamas. What now is happening, over two years later, they're still going and bombing. And they're bombing because Ben Gavir and Smollett, two of the people in Netanyahu's cabinet, are saying, "Don't stop the war." Even though they know that they can't, you can't bomb and eradicate Hamas. They haven't been able to do it. And what's, the only thing that's happening is that civilians are getting killed.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  And Israel actually is becoming less popular in that region. I mean, I was in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, they're losing support.

• 9:20Theo Von?

  Yeah. So, why is Netanyahu trying to drag us into it? What do you think that relationship is like between him and Donald Trump?

• 9:28Speaker 02

  So, I think Donald Trump actually initially stood up to Netanyahu because he wanted to bring this war to a close. And he didn't want to get dragged in initially to a war in Iran. I mean, you know what Trump's courage was while he became president in 2016? Do you remember the Republican stage and they all asked, "Are you for the Iraq war?" And Jeb Bush, who was George Bush's brother, wasn't willing to say that his brother made a mistake.

• 9:52Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah, he's a little oil bunny.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  You know, and Donald Trump, to his credit, stood up on a Republican stage and said the Iraq war was a disaster. I think that's how he became president. And he ran saying, "I want to be a president who ends these wars." I really believe that's what he, uh, thought at the time.

• 10:11Theo Von?

  Oh, well, sure. Well, I think recently, you know, um, how are you doing? Okay, without the notes so far, huh?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  You're doing great.

• 10:17Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  I, I wish, I wish people had more common sense, like you, than the people who are making this foreign policy stuff. Actually, my recommendation is that before Donald Trump makes a decision, he needs to have a conversation with you.

• 10:28Theo Von?

  Oh, God.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  No, well, to remind him, because I, you know, I watched your actually clip with him during the presidential campaign. And I said, "You made him the most, uh, human that I've actually seen him." I mean, your conversation with him about his brother and alcoholism, and then he asks you, "What is it, what was it like for you to have cocaine and your addiction?" And I thought, "Well, this is like him having a normal conversation."

• 10:52Theo Von?

  Yeah, felt pretty normal.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  And so, you, you know, but I think, do you know anyone, Theo, in your life who's like, "Yeah, we should go out and go, go to war with Iran"? Like, any of the, the folks you talked to?

• 11:02Theo Von?

  Nobody. Nobody. Even like, even like hard-headed, you know, like even guys who, like Navy, former Navy SEAL, no, none of them, nobody is saying yes. And I felt like... The biggest thing that's, I mean, there's so many things right now and it's like that I feel like in the world that are kind of stressing people and making people nervous. Um, but one of the things is I felt like it was supposed to be America first. Like we're focusing on like, what are we doing to get things back into America, right?

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 11:33Theo Von?

  Increase like the purpose of being an American to refill like our hearts with blood and like, and, and, and, and make us feel something again here and make us be excited about being an American, right? And I felt like that was what a lot of the energy was for. And then now that we're caught up here and it feels like we are just working for Israel. Uh, I think to a lot of people, it's, I don't know. You, you just really start to feel very disillusioned, uh, pretty quickly. And, and I don't mean disillusioned in people. I don't mean disillusioned in like the human beings. Um, but this disillusioned in our leaders, right? You start to feel like, I don't know, at one point, neither one of these parties is helping us.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Well, they both seem like parties that have gotten us into war. I mean, six trillion dollars it cost us into Iraq and Afghanistan. And we need now an anti-war movement in this country. And I don't think it has to be Democrat or Republican. I think Americans are sick of war. Uh, here are the two things I think we could do. Look on, how do you end the war in Gaza?

• 12:41Theo Von?

  Yeah, that's a great question. How do you, yeah, what would you do to curtail things right now in Gaza? Do you think they're really going to aim for like a two-party state over there? To me, it looks like they're just going to try to sweep these people into the ocean, you know? Well, I hate to say that.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  The, the problem is you've got Netanyahu, who is listening to his right wing, right? Ben Gavir, uh, and Smollett. These are two guys.

• 13:03Theo Von?

  Smollet's his other guy's name?

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Smollet.

• 13:06Theo Von?

  Smollet, bring him up.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  There he is. Buzalal.

• 13:10Theo Von?

  Buzalal Smutl, yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  And these guys are basically telling, uh, they're telling Netanyahu that if you stop bombing Gaza until all of Hamas is killed, that we won't support you for prime minister. So, so if Netanyahu stops, he stops being prime minister.

• 13:29Theo Von?

  Ah, I see what you're saying. So he's in a bit of a catch 22.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  He's in a catch 22.

• 13:33Theo Von?

  But why don't, I don't understand if they're, because you always hear great things about the Israeli military, right? The IDF, you always hear like how amazing they are. And I've met a lot of former people that have been in it and, um, guys who were like in the crumb of Gaza, some really talented, um, warriors really. But then why not send like your Navy SEALs to get the actual Hamas people? I don't understand this. If you're so precise.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:58Theo Von?

  Then what is this, you're bug spraying this group, these people, you know, like?

• 14:03Speaker 02

  They, they got them in the first three months. They destroyed most of Hamas's military capability. But the reality is there, Hamas is both a military movement, but it's also partly a political movement. I mean, there are people.

• 14:17Theo Von?

  Some people in Palestine elected Hamas because they thought they needed a desperate political party.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 14:22Theo Von?

  Right.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  So then the question is, well, what do you do? Cause I agree with you that Hamas can't be governing Gaza.

• 14:28Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  And so there is a solution and the solution is the president, Donald Trump can call Netanyahu and says, okay, enough with the bombing. You know, we're giving them right now 2,000 pound bombs to, to hit these civilians. We're giving them.

• 14:42Theo Von?

  There's a video the other day, sorry to interrupt you, bro. Can you see, see if you can pull that up, Trevin? There was a video of a child picking up the casing of a missile and, uh, and reading it. I think, see if you find that.

• 14:59Theo Von?

  Maybe we can't find it. That's okay. Um, do you think there's any chance of Palestine getting its land back there?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  I do. But first of all, I mean, you talked about this child getting a missile. I mean, how would it make you feel that our tax dollars actually were paying for a lot of the missiles and the weapons that are being used to now kill Palestinians?

• 15:21Theo Von?

  I agree. I think we've given them 12 billion dollars this year, Israel allegedly. Can you look up what amount of war materials that we've given them, Trevin?

• 15:33Theo Von?

  The United States has provided significant military to Israel throughout 2025. The Trump administration, which took office in January 2025, has approved nearly $12 billion in major foreign military sales to Israel. This includes nearly a $3 billion arms sale. Does that mean we're selling them to them?

• 15:51Speaker 02

  We're selling part of them to them, and then we've also given aid. Now, I voted against the offensive weapons aid about last year, but we approved it. So some of it is in aid, some of it is in sales. Trump is giving them 2,000-pound bombs that they can be using. So here's, though, what I think that I'm hoping he or others may be listening to this, because your voice really matters, because you know, and a lot of people who voted for him, and they voted for him because they wanted American patriotism, they wanted to focus on building our industrial base, they wanted us out of these wars. Donald Trump can call Netanyahu and he says, "Enough. We're not going to be giving you more offensive weapons to kill more civilians in Gaza." But here's what I'm going to do.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  I'm going to convene Saudi Arabia, I'm going to convene Jordan.

• 16:41Theo Von?

  What does convene mean, sorry?

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Convene means bring them together.

• 16:44Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Convene, bring them together. That's it. We're going to get the Arab states together, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, people in Palestine, Fatah, Israel, the United States. And we're going to say, "We need a new government in Gaza. It can't be Hamas." You know, Hamas is a terrorist organization. We're going to get rid of Hamas. And we're going to make sure that this new government has Palestinian voices, but also has Saudi, Jordan, Egypt, part of it, to make it secure.

• 17:14Theo Von?

  Right.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  So that they don't attack Israel. Because Saudi doesn't want to attack Israel. You know, he could win the Nobel Prize. You know, he wants to always win the Nobel Prize.

• 17:23Theo Von?

  Who, Donald Trump?

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Donald Trump could win the Nobel Prize.

• 17:24Theo Von?

  How could he win it, do you think, right?

• 17:25Speaker 02

  I think if he comes in and he says to Netanyahu, "Stop. Stop this. I'm actually the president who's going to bring peace. And here's how we're going to do it. It's not just going to be Israel, the United States, and Palestine." Because we agree Hamas can't be anywhere running Gaza. I mean, Hamas has called for the Destruction of Israel. We have to stand for Israel's right to exist as a Jewish democratic state. I mean, that is a principle we have to respect. But we're gonna get Saudi Arabia.

• 17:52Theo Von?

  And they have to respect Palestine's right to exist, right?

• 17:56Speaker 02

  They have to respect Palestine's right to self determination and have a Palestinian state in Gaza and in the West Bank. And you can get those two states and with land swaps, you could actually make it that even a lot of the the settlers are still gonna be able to stay in some of the places. I mean, you could get to a lot of the deal we know that needs to happen. But Trump has a good relationship with the Saudis. We have a good relationship with Jordan. We've got a good relationship with Egypt. Get all of these countries on board and say, okay, what is the new Palestinian leadership gonna look like? Saudi, Egypt, Jordan, are you gonna guarantee?

• 18:33Theo Von?

  Qatar too.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Qatar.

• 18:34Theo Von?

  My boys over there.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  You got, you know.

• 18:36Theo Von?

  I was just over there, man. They had us all dressed up like a bunch of Ku Klux Sand.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  You were in Qatar?

• 18:40Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  What were you doing in Qatar?

• 18:42Theo Von?

  They had me come and perform for the troops.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 18:44Theo Von?

  It was really great. It was pretty, pretty special. But sorry, I interrupted you just to get a joke in, but also was excited and had a great time there. They really treated me very nice. People thought I was a spy. I thought maybe they were gonna try.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  You, you could be part of this whole Middle East plan. Maybe you'll go perform if they get, if they get, if they get, if they get a state there. I mean, I look, I, I, what bothers me is that we know what we need to do.

• 19:05Theo Von?

  Right. So why is Trump afraid? Is Trump, is Donald Trump afraid of Netanyahu? I don't, I don't understand that. You know, cause Trump certainly feels like he seemed, he is a guy who does not seem afraid to say what he wants to say.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  I don't think he, I don't know what it is, cause I, I, I want Trump to do the right thing. Like, I want him to start to end the war in Gaza, to actually figure out how we get peace there. And I think he could. He could, if he picks up the phone and he says, Netanyahu, you're done. Netanyahu is gonna stop the bombing. And then Netanyahu is gonna say, okay, but we got Hamas. I can't stay here with Hamas. And he's, and Trump can say, okay, I'm gonna help you get rid of Hamas. But you can't keep bombing and killing women and children. That's not getting rid of Hamas.

• 19:49Theo Von?

  Yeah, it's fricking crazy, dude. I mean, it's just like.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  And, and so you get Egypt, you get Jordan, you get Saudi Arabia. I call it the 23 state solution. You get all of those Arab states.

• 19:58Theo Von?

  Mississippi. Dude, I'll tell you this. We can give Mississippi to Palestine. I've been saying that for 15 years. Have them come over, have Mississippi.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Have Mississippi?

• 20:08Theo Von?

  Yeah, have the Palestinian people come and move there if they want.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they they want Palestine.

• 20:11Theo Von?

  I understand. And I do understand that. I was just trying to give them something that I think everybody could, you know, because Mississippi could use um an economic boom, you know, they could use, I think, some uh.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  You're for Palestinian immigrants coming, maybe?

• 20:24Theo Von?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. With Palestinian immigrants coming, it would just kind of like add a new texture to that whole state. I think it needs like a rebirth of uh of thought, you know, they have a lot of great arts there, but I think they.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  They had Faulkner.

• 20:37Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah, they had some great, they had Udo R. Welty, they had Faulkner, they had um Jackson Dart. I mean, they've got some great uh Morgan Freeman. I mean, those are easy ones, some of them, but but no, I'm just saying if they had the Palestinians there, it'd be interesting. So I've I've just always thought uh that that would be interesting.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  But I think your voice on this really matters because no one sees you as sort of like some campus activist shutting down university buildings. You're talking to regular people. You're talking to uh people who are truck drivers and blue collar workers and you're saying, you know what? I'm always for the little guy. I'm that that's from the stuff I've seen about you. If there's like one Theo Von political philosophy, it seems like you're for the people who are being bullied. You're for the people who are kind of shut out and and that's how you're seeing this Palestinian issue. It's not because you're, I mean, you're, it's not Jewish or Palestinian or Muslim. It's like, how can we not be for both people?

• 21:31Speaker 02

  And now you're the most powerful country in the world and a lot of people, you know, supported Donald Trump and and he has an opportunity to bring the suffering to the end and make peace.

• 21:43Theo Von?

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• 23:47Theo Von?

  Over the years, Shopify has been there as we moved out of a basement over there in Akron, Ohio, in bigger areas to hold our merch. Shopify makes it so easy for me to start and run my business, and it will for you too. So if you're ready to build your own little empire or just start selling seashells by the seashore, whether it's merch, a new product, or your new idea, go to Shopify.com/THEO and make it happen. That's right. Shopify.com/THEO.

• 24:22Theo Von?

  You know what I realized the other day, because I've been thinking a lot about like voice, right?

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:26Theo Von?

  Like, what does it mean to have a voice? And I don't mean like me having a voice in the world, but just even have a sound that comes out of my throat that means something that's connected to my heart, or to my feelings, or to my thoughts.

• 24:39Theo Von?

  You know, and it's just, it's, you know, it's a gift. It's interesting to have. And then, I, I, what it feels like when you're afraid to speak, right? Like, I feel like my whole life, when I was a kid, I was just, I, I, I just, I wanted to have a voice for myself, you know? I just never had a voice. We were in a pretty traumatic place when I was a kid, and so I just never had, I couldn't even, I didn't even have any feelings to put together to share what I wanted to share, right? So I think like, um, like, I'll just, I'll always go for the underdog. I think that's all it is. Dude, I will have my, my team-

• 25:11Speaker 02

  That's kind of like your philosophy, right?

• 25:13Theo Von?

  Look, my team will be in a series, right? A best of five.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:17Theo Von?

  And if the other, and if the other, and if our, if my team goes up two to one, I'll start cheering for the other team. I just, for some reason, I always cheer for the underdog.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Um, you know, I grew up in Philadelphia, there was the Rocky story, right? And that's, that's the American thing, like Rocky is the underdog.

• 25:32Theo Von?

  Right. We're supposed to be the ones there to help, right?

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:35Theo Von?

  We're supposed to be the ones there to help. And if your country isn't even gonna do that at a level that's grandiose, right? Then, what, what makes you want to go home and do that at your own level? You know, like, well, you'll, you'll still do that, but you won't do it in feeling that you are supported by your country. And, uh, yeah, I don't want people to go die over there. I don't think that it's, it doesn't feel right to me. Um, and that's okay. Some people might be like, well, you're not a political pundit. I don't give a shit.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  But you know what? You know-

• 26:03Theo Von?

  I don't care if I am or not. I am a human being.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  And you're a citizen.

• 26:06Theo Von?

  And I am a citizen, and I, some people are like, well, you're lucky to be a citizen. Yeah, but I have, I'm a citizen. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm a citizen. I think the Native Americans should get things back.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  And you know, well, your voice hasn't been-

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Corrupted. I think part of the challenge in politics is you get surrounded with so many of these interest groups. You get surrounded by how you're gonna raise money. You get surrounded by all these foreign policy thinkers.

• 26:32Theo Von?

  Dude, we're working together. I didn't even realize it. Ro, I hate to interrupt you, but right now, my question is.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:38Theo Von?

  Ro, I, one thing I like about you is I feel like you're a black sheep. You take a lot of unpopular stances. That's something I really admire. One of those is not accepting lobby from PACs or PACs. We hear about them a lot of times. Some of my listeners, you hear about these PACs. It means Political Action Committee, right? And I'm reading this. Just give me a break, guys. Real quick. We are at a point, I believe, where a lot of people are starting to see that neither party really represents the people. That's the, that's the feeling that I'm hearing people say. I've heard Candace Owens say it, and you know, she's, you know, very much been a kind of a Republican role model, I feel like, or at least have some influence of that. I feel like she's also kind of in the lane of her own. Parties have been unable to keep businesses and lobbyists away from

• 27:22Theo Von?

  politics. In 2025, lobbying was at an all time high of 4.4 billion. I believe that's a couple sites said that online. The sites could be lying. How can we know who is accepting lobby money? First of all, how do we know that?

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So first of all, take a guess how many lobbyists there are in Washington right now, ballpark?

• 27:45Theo Von?

  12,000.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, 10,000. That's pretty good. 10,000.

• 27:50Theo Von?

  They're hiding a couple thousand. You know it.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  10,000. Think they're 500 members of Congress. That's, that, that, 535, right? Members of Congress, senators. That's 20 to one, right? You play football, like imagine you got 20 people, your wide receiver, you got 20 people covering you.

• 28:03Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Now, let me give you a concrete example of how this stuff works. Pharma lobbyists, right? Just big pharma. There are about 1,200 big pharma lobbyists. So it's about two and a half to one for every member of Congress. I'm sure you know people who want to get some drug, prescription drugs I'm talking about, and it's too much money, right? And they skip it. Do you know folks?

• 28:27Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah, totally, I do.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  So Donald Trump, one of the good things he does is he puts out an executive order, and he says, Americans shouldn't pay more for any of these prescription drugs than people in other parts of the world.

• 28:40Theo Von?

  Right.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  You know, I've had people who like go to a foreign country to get the drug because they don't want to pay them, they can't afford to pay the drugs.

• 28:48Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah. One night, I'm hanging out with a girl, and you know, we had, we've been on a couple of dates. I thought I was, we're gonna maybe smooch a little. It's 11:00 PM. She's like, she's like, I have to go drive to Mexico.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Are you serious?

• 29:00Theo Von?

  Ozempic. I'm not even joking. She's like, I have to drive to Mexico to get Ozempic. And she's like, if I leave now, the hours are best for driving there and back. And I was like, oh, gosh.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  So the weight of her heart was like getting her this drug?

• 29:10Theo Von?

  I don't, I'm not riding with her, you know, but I definitely, I gave her a little bit of gas money, you know, because I hope to see her again. But, uh, anyway.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Anyway, it's crazy, right? I mean, we're, we're, we're paying for all these drugs to be developed. You and I pay the NIH to develop all these drugs. Then the big pharma sells them at a profit to Americans, and basically, the rest of the world gets these drugs at a fraction of the cost.

• 29:34Theo Von?

  Right. So we're subsidizing their cost over there.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  We're subsidizing their cost. Now, one, someone could say, okay, Mexico or some of these developing countries, fine, you, they, they should have these drugs cheaper. But we're subsidizing Great Britain. We're subsidizing Japan. We're subsidizing Europe. These are rich countries. We're subsidizing Switzerland. So Donald Trump, one thing that I agree with, he comes out and he says, Americans shouldn't pay a higher price than any other industrialized country.

• 29:58Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  I'm the first congressperson, actually, to introduce his executive order as a law. I said, okay, because the executive order, you know, the pharma just will sue it and tie it up in court and nothing's gonna happen.

• 30:12Theo Von?

  Yeah, because he had another one with price transparency, right?

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 30:15Theo Von?

  Where it was like, all the, all the prices of, um, of, of, if you go get an MRI, whatever it is, it needs to be like a menu. Like, you go to McDonald's, you know how much it costs.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:24Theo Von?

  Because without a menu, they can just charge you later whatever they want, right? Which is part of the whole bait and switch of the insurance system, is part of the whole, uh, shell game. Um, that was another executive order, but that hasn't been enacted. Like, how do you, we get these things to actually? Happen like why, why do they stop at an executive order? Cause there's always this pomp and circumstance.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:45Theo Von?

  It's an executive order, but it never gets followed through.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Because they, it gets tied up in courts and they get sued and they say, well, Congress didn't authorize it. So I, look, I actually give Trump some credit for putting it out there, but he, he knows, everyone knows it can't actually make a difference until it becomes a law.

• 31:03Theo Von?

  And who sues it? The pharma companies?

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Pharma companies sue it. They, they've, they've got a whole industry of lawyers, of lobbyists, and they, they come out and they, they sue them. And they're, by the way, they're making record profits and, and they say, oh, we need this money to do research and innovation. Give me a break. They're, they're, they have those profits, they're buying back their stock, they're giving out dividends, their executives are making tons of money.

• 31:28Theo Von?

  Oh yeah. They're buying fricking Corvettes, dude, they're doing it. But they are, they're all probably all have Corvettes and they don't care. That's the thing, they don't care. But wow, so how do we stop that system, right? And first of all, do you believe that system can actually be stopped?

• 31:42Speaker 02

  I do. And I, I, I do, and I'll give you two examples why. Cause we did it with big tobacco. You remember that when tobacco basically had Washington DC bought? And then there was a campaign that said, free kids from tobacco.

• 31:55Theo Von?

  Hmm.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  And they-

• 31:56Theo Von?

  Bring that up, I wanna see a picture of that. Some kid would have smoked if they let him. They used to, uh.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  There it is. Yeah. Campaign for-

• 32:05Theo Von?

  The Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids, an American nonprofit membership organization established in 1995 with Bill Novelli as its first president. Okay, so that happened in 1995 and that had an effect?

• 32:15Speaker 02

  That, well, it was them, it was grassroots organizing. There was a hearing in front of Congress, they brought in all these tobacco executives. And basically the tobacco executives were seen lying to the American public saying, yeah, we know that this stuff is addictive. And that had a huge impact. There was laws that got passed that said, you can't sell tobacco cigarettes to kids. You have to disclose the addictive, uh, quality. So we stood up to big tobacco. We also did it one other time, uh, in this country famously. I don't know if you know what DT, DDT is?

• 32:49Theo Von?

  DDT, yeah, definitely. It's in the yard, brother.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:52Theo Von?

  That's what they say. It's in the grass, right?

• 32:54Speaker 02

  You know, it's the fertilizers.

• 32:55Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  And there was this woman, Rachel Carson, she exposed that it was hurting your health, it was hurting uh, or uh, the birds, it was hurting the ecosystem. And that led to Congress saying, no, we're going to ban DDT for a lot of different uses. We gotta do the same thing in standing up with pharma. How much money does pharma spend? Three hundred and eighty million dollars a year.

• 33:16Theo Von?

  In lobbying?

• 33:17Speaker 02

  In lobbying.

• 33:17Theo Von?

  Or in commercials, you mean?

• 33:18Speaker 02

  And just in lobbying.

• 33:19Theo Von?

  Now, does lobbying include commercials? That means paying paying to congressmen and reps.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  That's paying to congresspeople and reps. That's like money that is going to congressmen, to representatives, to state legislators. So I introduced this bill, right, saying, okay, let's do what Donald Trump wants. Let's do what Bernie Sanders wants. Like, how can we disagree on this? Let's take it to pharma, so Americans don't pay more. I get two Republicans who co-sponsor it, Representative Luna and Representative Biggs.

• 33:46Theo Von?

  Bring them up. Bring up Luna and Biggs. First of all, and if that's not a animated series, I don't even know. Um, it sounds also like it could be a rap group, Luna and Biggs. We gotta shout them? So that's Andy Biggs. He's a legitimate guy?

• 33:58Speaker 02

  He's a legitimate guy. I mean, look, I mean, disagree on things, but like, he's willing to stand up for what he believes. Representative Luna, she's willing to stand up, uh...

• 34:09Theo Von?

  Oh dude, I was just looking at her online yesterday. I like her. I mean, she has her, I like what she says, you know what I'm saying? I like her energy.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  She's, she's, she, she has an independence. And I got a few of the Democrats to be on board with this. Obviously, they, they don't want Americans being overcharged for prescription drugs. I mean, this was part of Bernie's whole campaign.

• 34:29Theo Von?

  And now people are, are there also people telling you that they got on board, or, or did it come down to a vote? How did it end up?

• 34:34Speaker 02

  So right now, we don't even have a, we don't have a vote. We, we should have every single person in Congress co-sponsoring this. The way Congress works is you gotta get it to about a hundred people to co-sponsor it, and then the speaker calls up a vote on the issue. But because you got big pharma's lobbying money, well, they, they're so cynical. They don't say, they don't try to stop, convince people to vote against it. They try to stop the congresspeople from, the speaker from bringing it for a vote.

• 35:02Theo Von?

  So they would like, they would invest in Mike Johnson?

• 35:05Speaker 02

  They'll invest, not just in Mike Johnson, they'll invest in...

• 35:07Theo Von?

  Mike, is that libel or slander for saying that?

• 35:10Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it's just

• 35:11Theo Von?

  They would lobby with, they would try to lobby Mike Johnson.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  They'll try to lobby Mike Johnson. But you know, there's this quote that I love from Dr. King. He said, attack the evil system, not the individuals who happen to be caught up in the evil system.

• 35:25Theo Von?

  Okay, got it.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  So, yeah, there's some egregious cases. The problem is the system is rotten.

• 35:30Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  And the, they are pouring money into different campaigns, into different lobbyists, and basically are not going to allow a vote on this. Because they don't, because they know if there's a vote and someone votes against Donald Trump and against lowering prescription drugs, the American people will be furious.

• 35:50Theo Von?

  Are gonna know who they are.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Are gonna know they are.

• 35:52Theo Von?

  Right, and then we can call them out by name.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  So they just don't want anyone to do it. And this is how, this is the game. This is why we don't get Medicare for all, why we don't have health insurance. Health insurance is not that we haven't had a vote on Medicare for all. This is why we still have fossil fuel subsidies. We haven't had a vote to get rid of fossil fuel subsidies. This is why we still have a defense budget that is over a trillion dollars. We don't get votes on cutting out the excessive contracts. I mean, it's, the game is to stop the vote. And so, it, let me ask you, the thing I wanted to ask you actually the most in this conversation is do you know people who are just like, yeah, I'm done with politics because I don't think I can make a difference? You know, it's just

• 36:32Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah, I'm saying, that's what I'm telling, that's what I've noticed in the past few months on some of my favorite shows that I listen to and watch. People are like, oh, I see now, neither, nobody has our side. Neither one of these groups, it feels like, have our side. You feel like it's just all these articles. It's like, well, here's an article about this is gonna happen. And then people get in an uproar about it, but nobody, it's almost like it's all algorithmed perfectly to the amount of our attention span, where it just fades out of, like, the zeitgeist of discussion. And zeitgeist just means, like, the circle of discussion at the moment, I think. Um, but so it's just like, it just fades, and then the next ball hits the area.

• 37:15Theo Von?

  You're like, oh, look at that one. That's it, transgender or something, you know? And then that one, then it's like, oh, racism again. Here I am, you know? Forget about me. And then it, but it's the same, after a while, you're just like, I've seen this show so many times. I think even our DNA is sick. So I think you're having newborn children that are like, this is fucking bullshit. Because even, I think it's in our DNA now, how long the charade has been going on. And that's where I see people are like, at a point where they're just at a loss. Um, how can that be stopped? How can that sort of thing actually be stopped? Can we do anything? Or does it have to fall on our representatives?

• 37:53Speaker 02

  The representatives aren't going to change things. And this is, this is my biggest concern for the country, that people keep getting disillusioned. They're like, I can't change anything. I'm just going to focus on my own life. Every two years, every four years, you get congresspeople, presidents saying they're going to do something. They do some executive order. It gets tied up in courts. Big Pharma blocks any reform. And what's the point? Right? And then the problem is that the less people get engaged, the more power these lobbyists and moneyed interests have. Because they don't want the engagement.

• 38:24Theo Von?

  No.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Right? They, they're perfectly fine with the system. Uh, and they're like, okay, well, we, we will keep supporting our members of Congress and presidents. Every four years, they'll run unchanged. Nothing actually changes. And let people get more and more disillusioned. That's what's going on in this country.

• 38:41Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, look, I believe that we've entered like a privatized communism. That's what I say a lot. That's pretty good. What it seems like we're in. Right? And you're sitting here telling me that our vote doesn't even really matter. So, yeah, people are getting disillusioned. Like, like, but what do we do?

• 38:54Speaker 02

  So, but that's why I gave that example of tobacco and DDT. When the country actually mobilizes, when they're like, we're done with this.

• 39:03Theo Von?

  Like, what do we need to do? Buy a Jeep or whatever?

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Well, I think one of the things you go do is like, look at who's taking money from these interest groups, right?

• 39:12Theo Von?

  Okay. Is there a site that we can look at where that's reported?

• 39:15Speaker 02

  Opensecrets.org. Opensecrets.org.

• 39:18Theo Von?

  Crack that bit open, kid. I know Chuck Schumer's on it.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Yo, and, and everyone is-

• 39:26Theo Von?

  Is that slander or not?

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I think you're, I think you're pretty, you're well, uh, not even close to the line of slander.

• 39:33Theo Von?

  We're not?

• 39:34Speaker 02

  No, we're not.

• 39:34Theo Von?

  Oh, good. Oh, yeah, that little money monkey's taking something. But you can find it on Open Secret Side, or you can find out how much each person gets and from where?

• 39:42Speaker 02

  You can find out how much each, so I don't take any PAC money, right? I don't take any lobbyist money. But you can even find out individuals aggregated, how much they're getting. And then, if they're getting money, fine, but then look at their voting record. Are they, are they, uh, uh, voting on, uh, against Big Pharma? Are they voting, uh, against, uh, the, uh, big insurance companies? So first is just being aware. But the second thing is, we've got to demand that people have a vote on getting lower prescription drug prices.

• 40:16Theo Von?

  Who do we ask that for, from Mike Johnson?

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Mike Johnson.

• 40:18Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  He's from Louisiana. He's from Louisiana, and he's-

• 40:21Theo Von?

  So I'll say it right now, Mike Johnson, why don't you put the vote up? I mean, everybody wants this. Everybody is tired of paying, of watching people, uh, medical debt's the number one cause of bankruptcy in America. We know that. It's bipartisan, right? It means both partisans like it?

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, Trump, it's Trump's bill. I mean, Trump's executive bill.

• 40:42Theo Von?

  Just help us, dude. Give us something. You know what I'm saying?

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Two things, two things he could do a vote on. One is stopping the war in Iran. I mean, that, he can, Massey and my bill, he has to give us a vote on it unless he play, plays games. And then two, let's just focus on Big Pharma, getting, getting Big Pharma.

• 40:58Theo Von?

  Yeah, let's start with one lobby. Let's start with one big lobby. I think it's just the, it's like, give us something, man. I was like, cause, you know what I'm saying? He's from Louisiana, so, like, that, Louisiana's a state where it's like, it's mostly about like people, right? Peer to peer. It's like, it's like, the state doesn't have a lot of, um, I don't think we have one top, um- We don't have one Fortune 500 company, I don't think, in the whole state. Maybe Entergy, but I think that they left. So we're a low-income state, but the one thing that we do have is each other's backs, right? And I just can't imagine that Mr. Johnson wouldn't bring this to the floor. To the floor, is that it?

• 41:36Speaker 02

  To the floor, yeah.

• 41:37Theo Von?

  Bring it to the floor, Mike. You know what I'm saying, bro? Like, if, if, if, people are sick. People are, people are sick, man. People are dying. You don't want to bring it to the floor? I think that's fucking bullshit. Now, if you are bringing it to the floor and Rose is not telling me the truth, then I'm sorry, Mike, right? I'm sorry, dude.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  And I, I, I got a good relationship with Mike Johnson.

• 41:56Theo Von?

  Mike's awesome.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  But, but someone has just got to say, okay.

• 41:59Theo Von?

  He's a cool guy.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  I'm done with it.

• 42:01Theo Von?

  But he's got keys to the janitor's closet and it's time to fucking get the, it's time to get the broom out and, and sweep this shit out from under the rug. That's what I feel like.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  And you know what will happen? If there's one time we take on one of these lobbying groups, whether it's Big Pharma.

• 42:14Theo Von?

  The rest will get scared.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Big, the rest get scared. And it's going to give hope to this country. Yeah, my voice matters. Yeah, I can get involved. Yeah, I can bring change. I mean, we have been voting for change in this country since Barack Obama. Every, every four years, every two years, like, kick them out. Let's try someone else.

• 42:32Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  And, and no one, and people.

• 42:33Theo Von?

  Yeah, we put in a mixed guy. You know, it's like that, we got an Indian guy showing up.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  They're trying everything. They're even trying the Indian guy. I mean, you know, the, the, the country is, the country is like, who do we need? They don't care about Indian, black, woman. They're just like, get me someone who's going to actually bring change.

• 42:53Theo Von?

  Give me, it's like, give me somebody with some balls. That's one reason why I support a lot of trans stuff, because I'm like, and maybe one of these women will have enough balls on them to fucking get us to where we need to be. Like, if, if that's where we're at, where we have to attach balls to an emotional sense of empathy that a lot of times is in a woman, and that's who we need to get us over this hill of bullshit that we keep climbing up, then maybe that's what we need, you know?

• 43:16Speaker 02

  You know what? It struck me when you said Louisiana doesn't have one Fortune 500 company. You know, I represent Silicon Valley. You know, in my district.

• 43:23Theo Von?

  Hold on.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  You know, my district.

• 43:25Theo Von?

  Hold on. Dude. We're about to go in.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  All right.

• 43:30Theo Von?

  You and I spoke on the phone about, this is crazy, bro.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:34Theo Von?

  Did you read this somehow?

• 43:35Speaker 02

  What?

• 43:36Theo Von?

  Are you that Oz mentalist guy?

• 43:37Speaker 02

  I mean, I have.

• 43:40Theo Von?

  No, you're not.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  I'm not.

• 43:42Theo Von?

  Sorry. Um, it said, and I'm sorry, I'm going back to my notes. And thank you, man, for talking about this stuff with me, man. It even helps us like, one thing I noticed, even we spoke on the phone the other night, man, and it just like, after I got off the phone with you, I felt a little better. I was like, at least I have somebody to talk about this with. Dude, yesterday, I'm, I'm leaving this restaurant and a guy comes up to me, he's missing a tooth or he's, he, he was missing one. And he was like, hey, man, thanks for speaking up about, uh, Palestine stuff. And I was like, I said, well, I don't, honestly, I don't know a ton about it. It's just kind of how I feel. And he goes, well, I think a lot of people are just afraid to speak up. They're afraid if they speak against Israel that they're going to be labeled an anti Semite. And I was like, oh, no, I said, I understand that, but I think that's just a verbal trap.

• 44:26Theo Von?

  You know, I'd said, you can have, like, I have tons of Jewish friends that I talk to every day and, and I don't think what, uh, Netanyahu is doing is good, but anyway.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  But don't undersell yourself. You have more common sense and your values than 90% of the foreign policy blob that has gotten us into all these wars and that has compromised our humanity. There's a reason the founders wanted Congress to be making decisions about war and peace. They trusted the American people, right? Like the kings of the past, when the founders were there, they would just do wars for their own glory. And the American people were really, the founders were really suspicious of that. And they, so they said, you know what? We actually trust the farmers and the people in factories and ordinary Americans not to get us into all this stuff. And they trusted people like you, Theo.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  And the problem is that your voice has gotten out of Washington and, and, and not, uh, central to it, but now we've got all these podcasts and they can't ignore you. So good for you to try to take back citizen voices. That's what this country was supposed to be.

• 45:30Theo Von?

  Well, yeah, thanks, man. I, I can't, sometimes I'm like, what the fuck do I have to do with anything, dude? That's a shit that like, I'm like, good.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  You're a citizen.

• 45:37Theo Von?

  Right. Now, now that I agree with.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Who hasn't been corrupted?

• 45:39Theo Von?

  But then you're just shocked when you're like, this me? Like, it's, it just, I think it just always blows my mind.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  I think the test in politics is like pretty simple. The two basic tests of politics. Do you believe that the American people are smarter and wiser and have good values? Or do you believe in like a bunch of experts and elites? Like, I fundamentally believe like the if we just allowed and listened to people, normal people, we'd be much better off in this country. And the second is like, do you love and believe in this country? And I do, I think we're a good country. I think we're the good guys, right? Most Americans want to be the good guys. And like, we've gotten away from that.

• 46:15Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Because you got so many intermediate moneyed interests, lobbying interests, PhD foreign policy experts who are corrupting the process.

• 46:25Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah. They're corrupting, man. They're bought and paid for. They're spies. They're spies. And the sick part is, to me, they're just killing themselves. They're killing the future of their children's imagination. Think of all the little things that you are hampering. But then I guess, you know, money, you know, when you see things happen with money and it's hard to to to prevent. So like you said, don't point at the person. Try and point at the overall issue. But I love that open secret.org or com.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Opensecrets.org. They can they can do an analysis on everyone. They can do it on me, they can do it. And, you know, it's not like people, there's no one who's perfect in American politics.

• 47:06Theo Von?

  Let's look at Mike Johnson.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  All right.

• 47:07Theo Von?

  I'll look at him right now. He's not going to be happy about it. I'm sorry, Mike.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  He's a good man, a man of faith, but like, like, the whole point is like, maybe he ends up actually putting this for a vote. I mean, that would be, see, but like all these packs.

• 47:19Theo Von?

  Imagine being fucking Paul Revere. You know what I'm saying? That's what he has a chance to be. Because then we could all hold these people like, you you fucking vote for this? Or you will never be back in this thing again.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Seriously.

• 47:33Theo Von?

  I think that's what people can do. Why doesn't Open Secrets have an app that makes it really easy? Is it very easy, the interface for people to be able to navigate? How to find out who gets what and whatever?

• 47:43Speaker 02

  It's pretty easy. You can do it like that. I would look at two things. One, how much money do they get from PACs? Which are the PACs? How much money do they get from lobbyists? And what are the industry groups? Now, if they're taking money and they're still voting against those groups, fine. But the the what raises red flags is when they're taking money and they're not bringing something for a vote? Or they're voting with those industry groups?

• 48:07Theo Von?

  Right. This says top contributors for 2022, 23 for Mr. Johnson, American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  And that gets to the vote on Iran, right?

• 48:18Theo Von?

  That's AIPAC, right?

• 48:19Speaker 02

  That's AIPAC. And like Massey and I have shown independence on that. So, okay, bring this vote so we don't get into war on Iran or, and don't be beholden to groups who are telling you, no, no, no, let's just go along with Netanyahu and strike Iran.

• 48:35Theo Von?

  Like, it's fucking cra- it's absolutely crazy. Uh, and you know what the craziest thing is, is that we've had Thomas Massey scheduled to come in for like a month, right?

• 48:44Speaker 02

  He's great.

• 48:44Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  He's one of the smartest members of Congress.

• 48:47Theo Von?

  He's a maverick. That's what I like. I think you and him both are mavericks. It's one thing that I admire about you is that you make choices that feel like your own, right? Um, and the odds that you guys have a building together and then, uh, you're here today and he's coming tomorrow.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Oh, is he coming tomorrow? That's awesome.

• 49:01Theo Von?

  I wanted to put you on the same day so you at least get to say, hey, but maybe, maybe in the future.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  We've done stuff, we've done a lot of stuff together. We both have like people in our own parties who get upset because we take stances that are independent. We work across the aisle. But isn't that what Congress is supposed to be like? I mean, when you have a conversation with your buddies, do you always agree with like three of them? And then have three of the others always disagree? It's like so irrational. Usually like you'll agree with someone on one thing and you'll disagree on something else. And yet in Congress, it's like you got these two teams and they're always supposed to be with their own parties. That's not how people actually are in real life. They want people who just think for themselves.

• 49:39Theo Von?

  I agree. And the craziest part is they're on two teams, but they should be playing for the same group, right?

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Team America.

• 49:47Theo Von?

  Yes. And the fact that there's like, it always feels, the craziest part is it feels like it's you as a citizen against your own, against, that's what it feels like now. It doesn't feel like this person, it feels like that in the voting, like they're gonna, and then it feels like it just changes. Once they get over that hill, you never see them again.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  And you know what?

• 50:08Theo Von?

  But Mike Johnson's a Louisiana boy and I think that he'll do the right thing, man. And I, uh, but I could help, um, keep tabs on who votes for the right thing that they're supposed to vote for. Um, because it's, it's unbelievable. It's, it's, we are literally, it's still DDT, but it's prescription drugs and we're killing our own people, you know?

• 50:30Theo Von?

  This show is sponsored by Liquid IV. I like staying hydrated, baby. It's important to me. It's important to me just to get, just dang, just get to a cellular level. I like to hear them little babies getting drenched inside of me. That's who I am. And Liquid IV, well, they help me. Now, mostly I enjoy the sugar-free options that they have. White Peach, Lemon Lime, Rainbow Sherbet, and more. They've got them. I just love, I just get my water bottle, open it up, hit it with that stick of Liquid IV, bam, shake it up, doused, doused, and my cells are feeling hydrated. That's it. No matter what your summer brings,

• 51:15Theo Von?

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• 51:59Theo Von?

  improves skin, boosts heart health, and melts stress like hot butter. Hmm. And I'm finally sleeping like a baby, which is rare since I'm usually up at 3 a.m. wondering if penguins have knees. Pro athletes, fitness buffs, big folks getting small, small folks getting big, everybody's hot boxing, and Symmetry Sauna can help. Designed in the USA, made with Aspen wood from ancient Estonian forests, ooh, yup, fancy trees. Symmetry Sauna, the perfect balance of form and function. Learn more about how to get your own premium home sauna from Symmetry Sauna at SymmetrySauna.com/THEO.

• 52:48Theo Von?

  Okay, so you and I spoke on the phone about the tech lobby, right? And that was something that I had never even heard the term before.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Really?

• 52:55Theo Von?

  Never heard of it. Your district in California, um, because you're a Democratic congressman, right?

• 53:01Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 53:01Theo Von?

  From California?

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:03Theo Von?

  Your district is home to five companies worth over $1 trillion.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:07Theo Von?

  That includes Apple, Google, Nvidia, Tesla, and Broadcom. Um, while half the country is deindustrialized and dependent. Um, you guys are, you're, you're in part of a, you're, you represent a very special district.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:21Theo Von?

  Um, how big is that tech lobby? Uh, who are the biggest players? And are there multiple tech lobbies fighting against each other?

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, first, let me just say that part of the problem in this country is that we've got $14 trillion in my district and five companies over a trillion dollars. And Louisiana doesn't have a single company in the Fortune 500. Like, how did we allow this to happen in America? Where all the wealth is piling up in Silicon Valley and New York.

• 53:48Theo Von?

  Sorry, there are two Fortune 500 companies headquartered in Louisiana, Entergy and Lumen Technologies, and I'm sorry about that, guys.

• 53:54Speaker 02

  But even that, right? You got two companies and you got five trillion dollar companies in one district. And a lot of what we've got to figure out is all these places like Johnstown, Pennsylvania, Lorain, Ohio, Downriver, Michigan, places totally hollowed out. You go there and there's 30% hotel occupancy. And then they're looking at Silicon Valley making more money than any time in human history in the world. Like, how in America did we allow this to happen? It's crazy.

• 54:19Theo Von?

  It's sad.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  It's sad and it's unconscionable. But is there a tech lobby? Yeah, there's a tech lobby. Let me tell you one of the things that's been in the news that I know you've discussed. Palantir, right? And the, the contracts that they're getting, $113 million to create this database on Americans. And I, you know, I know you asked someone.

• 54:40Theo Von?

  Yeah, I did. I'm gonna, I asked J.D. Vance about Palantir because I'm scared of it, right?

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:45Theo Von?

  Um, this is just on my thing. That's so crazy, dude. We are like, this is bananas. Um, I asked J.D. Vance about Palantir because I'm scared of it. I felt like he gave kind of a political answer to me, right? Which is no judgment. That's what I felt like. I want our listeners to know why I'm concerned. Well, one of the reasons is that Palantir got a $795 million contract with the US Army for the Maven Smart System, which is using artificial intelligence tools for data fusion and target identification. And then a $30 million contract from the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement to develop an operating system that identifies undocumented immigrants and tracks self-deportations.

• 55:28Theo Von?

  So one of the things that's going on is that it feels like to me that they are asking Palantir, or they are, they've granted Palantir the opportunity to create this overall database. And that is one thing that JD did talk about. So maybe he didn't give that just a political answer. He said he believes that it's just an overall database where like the local police department will now have them in the IRS, everything will be synced up so that if you're involved in something in the world, everything will, all the databases will be linked, right? Now, I felt like he would maybe know more about it because he has a relationship with this guy, Peter Thiel, who is one of the founders of it or something. But I don't know if that's true,

• 56:12Theo Von?

  right? And maybe he didn't give me a political answer. I think it felt, I don't know. You know what? Maybe it's just it wasn't the exact answer I wanted, right? And so that's why I'm kind of framing it like that. So, yeah, I don't want to say that. It just felt, yeah, I think it wasn't kind of what I wanted to hear. But that's also part of diplomacy, right? It's like, I learned that recently. It's like, everything is, you're not going to get everything, right? Nobody gets everything. But anyway, that's what it said. It was this overall database. And to me, I'm thinking, Dude, if they have an overall database, right? And they know every, they're gonna know everything.

• 56:56Theo Von?

  To me, it feels like they, that they'll just have this, like, all your information, your bank card, your blood type, they'll know if you prayed this morning, they'll know, just by like biometrics or whatever, if you've hit your knees, they'll know, if you're feeling hopeful, they'll know all of these things, right? What are things that we don't see coming from this Palantir deal? Do you think that those fears are realistic? What do you think?

• 57:19Speaker 02

  Well, I'm concerned, let me tell you what, how I see the facts. First of all, I don't wanna dunk on the Vice President, cuz I saw some of the interview, and I love the fact that you have people here of different viewpoints. But he's got a particular view. I mean, Peter Thiel founded Palantir. Peter Thiel also, I mean, it's public record, put fifteen million dollars into his campaign.

• 57:41Theo Von?

  Into his campaign, yeah, we talked about that.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  To make him a senator. So, I'm not saying, I'm not questioning him, I'm just saying he's got a view of a relationship with Palantir, and, and we've gotta figure out what are the objective facts. I mean, the Palantir was founded by Peter Thiel, and it was founded by CIA, is Incutel, right? This is what funds it.

• 58:01Theo Von?

  CIA is, what do you mean?

• 58:02Speaker 02

  The CIA has a venture capital firm.

• 58:04Theo Von?

  Oh.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Called Incutel.

• 58:06Theo Von?

  Incutel.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  They gave the money initially for Palantir.

• 58:08Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  There are certain things that Palantir does that are important to our country. They're using AI for military applications, so that our fighter pilots can identify targets, right? We need certain things to make sure that we're the leading military in the world. The problem is, on this database that they're creating about Americans, right? And here's what they can do, they're not collecting the data, they keep saying, "I'm a data aggregator." That means they're creating the program, the software, where the government puts in the data, your financial records, your health records, your employment records, they can buy your social media records, and they put it in, and Palantir spits out information. Now, let me give you a concrete example of why this could be dangerous.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Let's say you're a comedian. You know comedians, right? My guess is before you became Theo Von, there were times where as a comedian you did shows that made you maybe 5,000 bucks a night and maybe then you'd go a while and not make anything or make 500 bucks, right? You got good shows, bad shows.

• 59:12Theo Von?

  Oh yeah, I mean, we made 25, yeah, 100 bucks, yeah, for sure.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  And I'm sure you still have friends who are in stand-up comedy and who have good nights and bad nights. Now Palantir, this database, suddenly flags and does an algorithm and if someone's having income here and there, they say, "Well, is this person a risk for tax evasion?" And suddenly, they're getting audited because they're making a predictive model that comedians, stand-up comedians, should be making $70,000 a year and this person isn't disclosing their income. Are they a risk? We don't know with Palantir, are they target, what their algorithm is targeting? Are they targeting ordinary people who have incomes that are variable?

• 59:56Speaker 02

  Or are they targeting the billionaires who are evading taxes? It's just a black box. We don't know what data of your friends or my friends is being collected and whether they're actually creating a database. All we need to do is have transparency. I have three simple things that I think we should be able to get consensus around. Your data should not be collected without your consent. You need to know what data of yours the federal government has. The federal government should not have any of your data that they don't absolutely need to provide you a service. And then, when Palantir, we should know what their algorithms are. What are, are they doing this to get audit people who are like making 50 grand

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  because they're accusing them of tax evasion? Are they targeting their algorithms on the very rich or on ordinary folks? What if you have a social media post that says things that are critical of the government? Is that information now the government has? It's like a whole black box.

• 1:00:56Theo Von?

  Yeah, it's very scary. It's very scary too because what if?

• 1:01:02Theo Von?

  Another country says, hey, Palantir, you're our friends. Why don't you target these people in America so we can start to bring them down? Right? Why don't you start to adjust their scores? Hey, why don't you, why don't you, why don't you not, um, why don't you make it so that it makes it look like these people have already paid their taxes? If they have, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's just all these little things that could be plausible based on whoever owns the information. Like whoever owns Palantir, whoever owns that algorithm is gonna be able to basically puppeteer so many things that could be possible. And even if they're not doing it, there's the fear that they could be doing it.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  There's a fear they could, and there are no laws right now, right? We need laws saying, show us your algorithms. Have an audit of the algorithms. Who are you targeting? How do we make sure that you're not using this in a negative way? And basically, like, Americans should know what data people have about them.

• 1:01:55Theo Von?

  I agree. I agree with you 100% man. And I want to say also, and I don't want like a company like Palantir to think like, you're bullying me or you're doing this or that. They just happen to be the company that has been picked. And it's a scary time. It's already so scary with like technology, everything happening so fast. Um, it's spooky, right?

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  And you have a nuanced view. Look, I have a nuanced view. There's things that Palantir does that are important for a military. Like just saying, oh, Palantir is all bad would be unfair to what they're doing on the pandemic. They helped with distribution or what they've done on the military. The point is though, this American database building is scary and trying to predict whether someone is being a tax delinquent or not, trying to predict if they're going to be a financial risk, trying to figure out a profile on them. And what we need, I really blame the lawmakers because what we need is the laws to protect people's privacy, to protect people's data, like to protect the use of these algorithms.

• 1:03:00Theo Von?

  Yeah, I agree 100%. And we're going to get to that. I know you have the Internet Bill of Rights, and so we're going to get to that in a second. Um, yeah, this is the push. I want to say this, the push has put a key Palantir product called Foundry into at least four federal agencies, um, including DHS, HHS, uh, and others. Widely adopting Foundry, which organizes and analyzes data, paves the way for Mr. Trump to easily merge information from different agencies, the government officials said. And that's what J.D. Vance said when he was here, right? He was saying, um, and I'm reading that off of, uh, the New York Times, give or take what you think about them. Um, but, uh, that's what J.D. Vance had said, that he thought it was just this overall compiling, this kind of aggregating of information, right?

• 1:03:45Theo Von?

  He didn't think it would get super specific. So I do, you know, I don't think he, it felt a little politically, but that also could just be what he exactly believes, and that could be exactly what's happening. Um, I think the, there's just a lot of fear with it. A lot of, it says in here also, creating detailed portraits of Americans based on government data is not just a pipe dream. The Trump administration has already sought access to hundreds of data points on citizens and others through government databases, including their bank account numbers, the amount of their student debt, medical claims, disability status, uh, et cetera. So this will just, I mean, I think this whole thing just goes further down that line. And I don't even, of just like, knowing everything about everyone, and I don't even think that it's, it's Republican or Democrat.

• 1:04:28Theo Von?

  I just think it's where we are in time right now, um, with technology, and that it's very scary, uh, and that you can start to see how big the, uh, tech lobby is. I want to say this, um, one thing about Palantir though, that a lot of people have had issues with, uh, is what they're doing in Gaza, right? With AI targeting. And this is off of, I read this online, and so that makes it probably incredible, but, uh, allegedly Palantir's software is reportedly used by the Israeli military to help select targets in Gaza. Its data mining and AI systems can process intelligence reports, communication intercepts, and surveillance data to generate lists of potential targets in a matter of minutes, a process that previously took hours.

• 1:05:14Theo Von?

  Lavender and Habsoura, uh, which are two of the, they're kind of, I guess, programs or overall idea names. Um, and Habsoura means the gospel. Uh, investigations indicate that two AI systems, Lavender and Habsoura, are at the core of this collaboration. Lavender assigns Palestinians a threat score based on metadata, social media, and movement patterns. These systems reportedly operate with significant error margins, and their recommendations can be enough to authorize deadly strikes, sometimes with minimal human oversight. Gaza is described as a live laboratory for these AI technologies,

• 1:05:53Theo Von?

  where new systems are trained, tested, and refined in real-time combat conditions before being marked globally as battle-tested solutions. I think that's where a lot of the fear is.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  It really is.

• 1:06:05Theo Von?

  If that can happen there and this, they're capable of that, then how do I know if, when I'm walking down the street, that some decision I made years ago or something, a bullet's not just gonna fly out of anywhere and go through my head from a drone or something, you know? That, I think, is, is the big fear about this. And I think some people don't even know it.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  I think the big fear with technology-

• 1:06:27Theo Von?

  Is that crazy for me to say that?

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  No, I, I, I mean, I don't think it's crazy to fear that machines should not control human beings, right? I mean, we, look, technology can do a lot of good, it can do a lot of bad. But the key principle here is, are human beings gonna be in charge? From what you described, it looks like that AI is being used, they're selecting, targeting, and the biggest negative in that whole paragraph you read is without human oversight. I mean, you still need a human being saying, okay, wait, we're not just gonna go do strikes 'cause AI tells us there's a risk, there's some women and children there, let's not have those strikes. There's a hospital there, right? And I think that one of the things we need to adopt for the United States

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  is there has to be a human being making decisions before any military use, any military strike.

• 1:07:16Theo Von?

  Yeah, at least give me the fat guy with the donuts sitting there to be like, nah, forget it, nah, nah, nah.

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  He's like, it's like, we're now gonna be, we're celebrating, we're celebrating. He would, I'd rather have a human being, right? Because there's some compassion, there's some-

• 1:07:29Theo Von?

  Oh, I agree.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  That there's some sense of guilt. AI's not gonna feel guilty, AI's not gonna feel compassion, AI's not gonna have any accountability.

• 1:07:37Theo Von?

  AI doesn't even go to sleep at night.

• 1:07:40Theo Von?

  How can you trust something that doesn't even go to sleep at night?

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:42Theo Von?

  You know, that doesn't even give God a chance to rebuild the inside of it while it's resting.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  That's pretty beautiful, yeah.

• 1:07:48Theo Von?

  I do not understand this, man. And it's very scary. And that happens, it's happening allegedly, I want to say that. It's allegedly, you can go look it up for yourself, happening in Gaza that this, and to me, it does start to feel like that. You're like, it has been such a massacre. They are so over abundant. I mean, it's basically people climbing into holes of rubble, looking for pieces of their children and family members. And it's like, we're watching it all. It really does feel like, am I now part of some sick experiment? Like, how long do I sit and watch before I raise my hand or say something? Or at least some part of me that has a voice inside of me, like says, I don't want, ah, just take me out.

• 1:08:32Theo Von?

  I don't want to be in this game anymore. I don't, I don't like it, man. I don't like it.

• 1:08:38Theo Von?

  We're going to keep it moving right there because we have some other stuff that I wanted to say, oh, I wanted to think about this with you. At some point, like if we lay this layer of technology over our society, right? And whether we do it now or it's in the future with AI, this all-knowing kind of layer

• 1:08:55Theo Von?

  that knows like, if you've eaten, knows your blood pressure, knows how far you've walked today, knows how much money you have, knows the emojis you've sent recently to kind of get an aggregate idea of how you're even feeling as a human. Then that almost becomes your God, right? In a weird way, I know that some people will say, nothing will ever be my, be a new God for me. I feel that and I agree with that and I respect that. But if you're, say, future generations, if they're raised under this cloud of, that's all-knowing.

• 1:09:30Theo Von?

  Then that would they almost at some point pray to this algorithm? That it would change, give them a lottery ball of some sort of thing or something? Does that even, I mean, it's kind of Ray Brad Bellian or whatever, Brad Wellian or whatever? Um, or Brad Burwellian, but does that make any sense to you, man?

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  Well, that's why we have to keep our humanity. You know, some of the stuff in Silicon Valley is crazy where these tech leaders really are trying to be godlike. Uh, let me give you two examples. Have you heard of this thing called, uh, uh, cryonics?

• 1:10:05Theo Von?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  You know, where?

• 1:10:06Theo Von?

  We had a guy on who did the freezing.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Theo Von?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  Yep. I mean, basically they want to like freeze your body if you die, if I die, freeze your body and your brain. So that some future medical technology could bring you back to life.

• 1:10:20Theo Von?

  Some pervert probably too.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  Uh, and, uh, Peter Thiel's done this, reportedly Sam Altman at OpenAI has done this.

• 1:10:25Theo Von?

  Have signed up for it?

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  Have signed up for it. That's the reporting. Now, I'll tell you why that's so bad to try to be immortal. One of my favorite speeches of all time was Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs founded Apple Computers. He dies of pancreatic cancer. He gives this commencement speech and he says that life invented death. And death is a change agent because death allows for the removal of the old guard. And for new ideas and new creativity to, to come about. Like you're supposed to, uh, make way for a new generation. We're supposed to be mortal. So you have these people who are trying to be immortal. Now, why does that matter? Cause this is partly AI, right?

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  If you don't have a sense of your own mortality, your own limitations, you're not going to have a humanistic sense of putting people over machines. A second example with a, uh, with these tech leaders. They want to build these tech cities. Have you heard of that?

• 1:11:24Theo Von?

  Mm hmm. I've seen like pieces in Memphis and stuff where people are getting sick because of like data being uploaded and stuff in their neighborhood and shit like that.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's.

• 1:11:31Theo Von?

  Storage, you know?

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  That's a big issue of how these data centers are, are being built and whether they're, uh, going to cause pollution or dislocation. But they really want to build. Tech cities, not just a city, it's like a secular genesis, like they want to build a new civilization with algorithmic norms, with morality that they're setting, not like that was set by God or years of civilization. And it's scary. It's scary because it shows an arrogance, a lack of humility. My sense is, look, AI can be an incredible tool if it helps you figure out how many steps you walked and when you're sleeping and how to be nutritious.

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  But it has to be subservient to human agency. It has, we have to have laws that say ultimately human beings are in charge. And we have to make sure that we're teaching people to have the critical thinking skills and the autonomy to be able to use these programs and not be subservient to them. And that's, to me, that's the biggest question for humanity. It's ironic because, you know, you're asking almost deeper questions than any of these Sunday talk shows in Congress. Like in Congress, we're busy fighting about like who insulted who and like who's up, who's down in the polls. And we just have this technology revolution that's

• 1:12:54Speaker 02

  going to change how all of us work, that, you know, is going to make people afraid if they're going to lose their jobs, that's going to try to create the super intelligence, wondering whether we're making the decisions or machines are making the decisions. That's what we should be talking about.

• 1:13:10Theo Von?

  Right. And we should be talking about it in a way that is, and I guess there are ways to talk about it in ways that are exciting. But I just think right now with what you have seen, like, but what the, to me, the destruction and the, the stuff caused by Israel now, it makes it very scary right now with that company because you've just seen that and then you're now that's the company that's going to oversee our country. What's going to keep me from being a Palestinian to the next guy who starts the button in the morning from his cellphone and then goes off on his yacht, you know, and just.

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  The Constitution, hopefully.

• 1:13:45Theo Von?

  Right, but. Right, right. Hopefully the Constitution. Thanks for your patience today, Mr. Kana.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  Ro is fine.

• 1:13:52Theo Von?

  Ro. Rohit, that's your real name, Rohit?

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Theo Von?

  How do you say it?

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  Rohith. You know, when I was a kid, people used to, I still remember this, they used to say, uh, Rohit, Rohit, Rohit is on fire. And then I figured out it was like, I'm making fun of my, my full name. And then, uh, when I used to go up to hit, uh, on Little League, I used to all chant, Ro can't hit. Ro can't hit, watch the bunt. But, uh, you know, we, we have this in common, right? I looked up that you, you got a long name that.

• 1:14:20Theo Von?

  Oh, yeah. What's your full name?

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  It's Rohith Kana.

• 1:14:23Theo Von?

  Rohith Kana.

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  But you know, you know, we're both, I don't want to geek out because I, I was, I loved literature, but the, the, it's like quintessentially American, uh, to in some ways, change your name and to make your story, right? Like my favorite character in all of American literature is this guy, Jay Gatsby. And his name was James Gatz. He was from North Dakota. And he said, well, James Gatz is not a sophisticated name, so I'm going to call myself Jay Gatsby. And he reinvents himself. And in, in different ways, you, Theo Von, like no one would have thought you'd be Theo Von growing up. No one would have thought this geeky Indian kid is going to go represent Silicon Valley. Uh, and Rohith Kana is going to become Roh Kana, representing the most economically powerful place in the world.

• 1:15:06Speaker 02

  But like, that's the story of America, right? That's the story of self-invention. Uh, and it's something that we've kind of lost that, that it's why my parents came here. Uh, and the question is, how do we, how do we get that back? Like, how, you know, we, we've talked about all the negative stuff, which I get. But how do we, how do we get people believing in this country again? Believing that we can do big things again?

• 1:15:28Theo Von?

  Well, I think there's some ways, and we'll go into this now then, because we're on my list here and I am using a list today. That's okay. Um, because it's an important conversation. Because of AI, uh, job replacement has already started to happen.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:43Theo Von?

  What kind of worker protections can be implemented, do you think? Because I know you have an internet bill of rights and then we can talk about that right after that.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Theo Von?

  Um, or it may be part of it, but what do you think? Cause we should be protecting the human, right? At a certain point.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  We should be protecting the human and we could go two ways with it. AI, right? One way of AI is like this could create a lot of new jobs, right? We could build new factories now that are productive in this country. You could have someone in a classroom in Kentucky now who because AI doesn't get to go to Harvard or Stanford, but suddenly has the knowledge of the whole world at their fingertips. And it can get that kind of education. You can have someone working in a small rural town making eighty grand or a hundred grand because they're a content creator. Or you know how many content creators there are in this country? One point five million who make some money doing content creation. Or they can do digital marketing, or they can help AI start a small business.

• 1:16:38Speaker 02

  So like my point is, how do we get AI to lessen the wage gap? To create economic opportunities as opposed to just eliminating jobs? The scary part is, what if they're going to start to eliminate jobs? Like if you're a truck driver, what if they say, okay, we're just going to have self-driving trucks? That's why we need to pass laws saying, no, I need a truck driver for safety. Like, would you fly on a plane right now without pilots? You know, same thing, I wouldn't. So let's make sure we have basic safety in terms of recognizing that we do want workers and workers get to have a say in how to use this technology. You know what the scariest thing is? The unemployment rate for kids between twenty-one and twenty-nine who have a college degree.

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  Everyone often says, oh, if you have a college degree, you're going to be employed. Actually, it turns out if you have a vocational skill, skilled trades, twenty-one to twenty-nine, you have a two percent unemployment rate right now. College degrees, fifteen percent. That could go up to thirty percent if with AI, with these entry-level jobs. And one of the things we need, I think we need the federal government to help incentivize people getting apprenticeships after they're done with a trade school or a college. So they can actually get a job, but make sure they're subsidized. Create a government, Future Workforce Administration that hires them so they get a few years of experience and then can go on to the private sector.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Most importantly, everyone needs to understand technology and AI. The old cliche is you're not going to be replaced by AI, but you will be replaced by someone who knows AI. And in our schools, K through 12, everyone should have a technology class. China is aiming by 2030 to have universal literacy on AI.

• 1:18:24Theo Von?

  No, yeah, not to interrupt, but I think, well, one thing you said here that was really great was, anybody, I agree, a lot of jobs are gonna, it's gonna be scary. I'm amazed, I was talking to my brother yesterday, I was like, I said, bro, do you have your kids learning about AI right now? Like, are they learning about it? Are they starting to use it? My brother's like, no, I don't think so. I said, dude, I feel like it's coming so fast that it could change things really fast. Now, one thing you mentioned is, anybody can learn this right now. It's almost like a great reset in a lot of ways. So you have the kid who couldn't afford to go to Harvard, right? Who couldn't afford to go to MIT, whose father doesn't have the nepotism, because we certainly live in like a neposociety now a lot, in a lot of ways,

• 1:19:09Theo Von?

  whose father didn't have that capability. Now, that kid can get on a computer for probably six weeks or something, really focused and cracked down, and could probably get a job. Like, I was literally looking the other day, I was like, I need somebody who knows everything about AI, right? I need somebody who can program and design and help with AI. Like, I want to start like an AI studio, right?

• 1:19:31Speaker 02

  Oh, that's pretty cool.

• 1:19:32Theo Von?

  And I gotta do it fast, because everybody else is gonna be doing it, right? You could have a new.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  So even someone like you needs AI, right?

• 1:19:38Theo Von?

  A hundred percent. I feel every day, and there's a little part of me that pulls, like a little string inside of me that gets reminder, like, hey, man, you have to get on top of this. I know other things are pressing.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  I hope kids who are listening to this hear that, because a lot of people want to be like, how do I be Theo Von? How do I be this guy with a podcast? Or do stand-up, be a stand-up comedian? Even someone like you, you want to do that, you gotta know AI. Look, one of the things I say is, look, I was really good as an Indian kid in math, right? Like every Indian kid is. But you don't need math. Like, you don't need algebraic calculus anymore to do AI. You don't have to.

• 1:20:10Theo Von?

  Dude, you're gonna shake up all of Madras by saying that.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  You don't, you don't, you don't have to be like I was like some nerdy kid who did like mathletes and you know, got good grades on math tests. Don't, don't need it anymore. If you want to be an advanced coder programmer, fine, but the amazing thing with AI is now it does all that for you. You know what jobs are actually being eliminated? The coder jobs, the guys who did all the math, the AI is doing the coding for them.

• 1:20:36Theo Von?

  Imagine there's a guy sitting there building AI and it's only gonna, it's gonna take his job.

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  So now like, okay, you don't have to be the kid who did algebra and calculus. Not to say that you shouldn't learn math, you should learn it for your own sake, but even if you don't like math, now you can just learn this technology. You just have to be comfortable with it. How do you use it to do a business? How do you use it to learn about the world? And you can be the one asking it questions and prompting it. And it could create a whole new level of jobs. And you know what the exciting thing is? You don't have to leave Louisiana for so, so, so many times we said, okay, you gotta go move to Silicon Valley, move to New York and people in Appalachia.

• 1:21:15Theo Von?

  Rush or whatever.

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  And people are Appalachia, we're like, yeah, no, it's really beautiful here. No, I really like living in my small town, in my rural community. Like, no, I don't want to go live in New York. No, I don't want to go to Rose District. I often ask all these people in my district who are like, oh, okay, just tell them to move here or move to a tech place. I was like, well, are you gonna move to Louisiana? And no hands go up. Then I was like, why are you so arrogant to think they want to live here? They, they like it where, where they grew up with their families. But now you can like live there and you learn a little bit of tech and you can work for almost any company in the country, in the world. That is the opportunity if we do this right. And we should start with kindergarten through 12th grade. It's just like reading or writing.

• 1:21:55Theo Von?

  I agree.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  Your brother's kid's gonna do it?

• 1:21:58Theo Von?

  I hope so. I'll say this, they're not working for me one day if they don't. This is also interesting because it's like every now and then there's something that makes it where you can jump. You can jump up a cast or a system, you can jump a couple of levels. And I believe that right now this is that thing.

• 1:22:13Speaker 02

  I said the same exact thing, you know. The wealth gap, there are two huge wealth gaps in this country. One is between places like Silicon Valley and factory towns, rural towns that were decimated. And the other is a racial wealth gap, 10 to 1. White families and Asian American families, 10 to 1 the wealth of people who are African American, Latino American. Technology, you can do that, scale that in one generation. If we can, if we can get rural communities, factory towns, towns in the black south, the opportunity to do things with tech, build companies, build wealth, be content creators.

• 1:22:50Theo Von?

  Oh, hell yeah, black AI dude, you know what I'm saying? Build me a trap beat, homie, let's get this. Uh, no, but I, I agree with you. It's an, it's an opportunity, right? And, and that is, it's like, it's an opportunity. People, some people are like, there's no, and I know that's just one thing. But also another thing is that trade jobs, like you're saying, you're still gonna need plumbers for sure, you're still gonna need, uh, you're still gonna want the hands on the wheel of a human being, I believe. But there's a lot of trade jobs, you're not gonna be able to replace those. Um, you talked about an internet bill of rights, right? Which you tried to, uh, pass, I'm guessing? Or tell me about that, tell me a little bit about that experience and why do we need that? Do you feel like we already answered that or no?

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  I could go do it briefly. I mean, I, there, there's a guy, Tim Berners-Lee, you should have him on sometime.

• 1:23:35Theo Von?

  Tim, what's his name?

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Tim Berners-Lee. He is the founder, basically, of the world wide web. He's, he's the, one of the people who made the internet, the internet.

• 1:23:44Theo Von?

  Oh.

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  And I'm sure he was like knighted or something. And, uh, you know, so he and I talked and we came out with this internet bill of rights. Uh, when, you remember that Facebook, Cambridge Analytica scandal where people lost their data on Facebook and profiles were made? And basically it said, in this country, no one should take your data without your consent.

• 1:24:08Theo Von?

  Agreed.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  And you should know where your data is. I mean, there are other parts of it, but it's like pretty simple. You own your data, you control your data, and you should know what's happening with your data. And I think, and, and by the way, you should be compensated to some extent for the use of your data if you, if you consent. There should be a data dividend in this country. And I think that is not a partisan issue. Uh, it is an issue that's going to become increasingly important with things like this database that may be being made. Like, you should know, do you know, Theo, right now, what the government knows about you? Do you know if there's a profile on you? Do you know, like, what if that database is wrong?

• 1:24:43Theo Von?

  Pisces, I know that. I'm trying to think of what else. Uh, I don't know. Yeah.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  Like, you should, you should know. You should be able to consent. You should be able to get something deleted if they have an incorrect information. And what that applies to the government. And it applies to big corporations. I don't want Google having some profile on Ro Khanna. I mean, so, uh, we introduced this in 2017. 2017. Congress, to this day, has not been able to, uh, to, to introduce or pass any Internet Bill of Rights. There are no protections. You know, when Josh Hawley-

• 1:25:18Theo Von?

  When you say there's no protections, oh, you're just saying there's no protections for people?

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  I mean, no protection for people. Josh Hawley once, and I, uh, there are places where I actually agree with Hawley. He had Mark Zuckerberg stand up and apologize-

• 1:25:29Theo Von?

  To those parents behind him.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  To those parents.

• 1:25:30Theo Von?

  I saw that.

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  And someone said to me, you know what he should have also done? He should have had the whole Congress stand up and apologize. The problem isn't just these tech companies, it's the Congress. We've, we've had this stuff going on for 10 years. And Congress has not passed an Internet Bill of Rights. And one of the things I say is, like, I know these people. I know they, I know how they think. They're gonna run circles around you. You gotta hold them accountable. Have the, the tech guy saying, hold them accountable.

• 1:25:55Theo Von?

  Why won't they do it? The same reason as before?

• 1:25:58Speaker 02

  Why won't the tech companies do it?

• 1:25:59Theo Von?

  Who's lobbying? Who's lobbying against them? Big tech?

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's the, uh, it's tech lobbying. It's Internet Service Provider lobbying. It's these lobbyists. And they don't want, uh, and we haven't, I mean, can you imagine this country that has a constitution? That is a country founded on freedom? And we don't have any federal legislation saying you own your data?

• 1:26:21Theo Von?

  Oh, well, I, well, that's what it's all become. It's all part of this thing where all you become is data. And then you don't own it. And then you're part of a new country without you even realizing it. You got put into a whole new continent. titled or owned by whatever um tech monarchy owns it or allajarchi owns it and then you that's where you are people were like I'm in America like that's fine you can believe that all you want right but if another company owns your information that company can't really even be sued there's a there was also part of that uh big beautiful bill that keeps um state like AI

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  it's the worst part of that bill

• 1:27:01Theo Von?

  the AI you can't even sue the people bring it up for me get to that really quick

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  10 years they want no state to have any regulation on AI 10 years to give a free pass to these big uh tech companies no regulation I I spoke out against it and my phone blew up because I had all these angry tech leaders saying Ro how are you speaking out against these moderate terms that's when I knew I was doing the right thing

• 1:27:23Theo Von?

  that's when you know you're doing the right thing man

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  but but you know you know what's sad they own this country and because you and I both have gone to some of these towns that lost their factories that lost their industries and we screwed them twice first we took away their jobs we literally shipped their jobs offshore or watched their jobs go to China these towns started to deindustrialize there was pain there was opioids there were drugs and then what do we do we get social media companies to find algorithms on their data to start targeting them with content which is causing young girls to commit suicide which is getting some people more addicted to drugs which is getting people to be angry at each other it's like we screwed them taking away their jobs and now we're taking their data and screwing them with

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  social media

• 1:28:11Theo Von?

  I just feel like the devil is at the gates man I feel like we are at such an important time and I know people have probably said that before and what the fuck do I know dude I am I'm not mentally handicapped or whatever but I am definitely adjacent right but I do know some things I know this that I'll say this this is in that big beautiful bill um and I don't know everything that's in it but this is one thing that really stood out to me and I I asked JD about this it says for a full 10 years after enactment no US state or locality may enforce any law or regulation that limits restricts or otherwise regulates artificial intelligence models artificial intelligence systems or auto automated decision systems entered into interstate commerce only

• 1:28:54Theo Von?

  laws encouraging use or deployment of AI are excluded That means that we will, you won't have any legal recourse against a machine.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically, like you know how you said you want hands on a wheel?

• 1:29:07Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  If now a state wants to pass a law saying you gotta have a truck driver on a truck, you can't do that. If your state wants to pass a law saying you can't have an algorithm in social media that gets young girls addicted to content that makes them more likely to have eating disorders, can't do that.

• 1:29:25Theo Von?

  So it's just gonna be federal have the only?

• 1:29:26Speaker 02

  Federal will be the only one. And you know what's?

• 1:29:28Theo Von?

  Guy, do you not see how cra- do you not see what is at the gates?

• 1:29:33Speaker 02

  And, and by the way, you're not gonna get federal legislation because the way you get federal legislation in this country is when you get a bunch of states that pass legislation, then you get the industry coming to the federal government saying, oh, there are too many state laws, can you just get one federal standard? But if you don't have the state laws, you're never gonna have industry coming saying, let's get a federal standard. So it's basically like, let's have AI just develop. And that is the problem, right? There's the beautiful AI vision of how your nephews could learn this and build wealth and we could have some people in one generation have economic security. And then there's the dystopian AI vision where big government and big companies control our data or making

• 1:30:13Speaker 02

  decisions based on what predictive algorithms are telling about, about us, where we lose control to machines. And the question is, which way are we gonna go as a society? And, who's gonna benefit? Is the AI revolution gonna be like globalization? All the money piled up in my district, you know, we'll be sitting here five years from now, instead of 14 trillion dollars, it'll be 50 trillion dollars and places like Louisiana will still be shafted? Or is the AI revolution going to be owned by American citizens? Like, to me, that is the whole biggest question of our society right now.

• 1:30:48Theo Von?

  I agree. I agree, man. It's one of the reasons why I was so grateful that you were willing to come here so quick and then we're able to talk about this stuff. Cause I wanted to have, I just, I don't know, sometimes I just get afraid that I'm not educated enough to have certain conversations.

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  You're, you're, you're, you're perfectly, you're educated to, to the point where it's your values. And that's, I think that's actually- One of the things that the tech folks rely on, and it's like what the foreign policy establishment relies on. It's like the old priests, like we've got some secret language, secret vocabulary. You can't talk about the Middle East because you haven't studied the Middle East as much as us. You can't talk about technology because you don't know the math that went into the coding of AI. Who cares? These aren't questions of technological competence. These aren't questions of foreign policy competence. These are questions of human values.

• 1:31:34Theo Von?

  Right. It's a moral, yeah.

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  It's a moral issue.

• 1:31:37Theo Von?

  But just, but just to be sure to go back. So on, on that point, we're talking about that part that's in the big, beautiful bill. It will not leave you very much legal recourse. Is that correct?

• 1:31:46Speaker 02

  It'll leave you no legal recourse if you're a state. You can't do any regulations.

• 1:31:50Theo Von?

  What if you're a citizen?

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  And if you're a citizen, you have almost no legal recourse. It's basically saying, look, let's trust the AI developers to just develop AI. And the argument they give is, well, we don't want to lose out to China. Well, you know what? I don't want to live in a society like China. China has a social credit score on every single person. Like if you're in China, you get ranked 10, you're a great Chinese citizen. One, you're not, you know, because you didn't pay your bills, because you were rude to someone, because you made fun of someone.

• 1:32:20Theo Von?

  Because your karate sucks. That's just an old joke.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  The, the, the, the argument can't be like, we're going to stay ahead of China, so let's become like China. How about we're going to stay ahead of China without being China? And we're going to have regulations because we're Americans.

• 1:32:35Theo Von?

  And it's here now, though. People don't understand it's here now, right? Like it's, we can't keep kicking this, the ball, I feel like, I feel like we're on the goal line.

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  We're on the goal. This is the thing that the tech leaders, why they're so involved only in politics. They understand that this is the whole ballgame. Like, well, we're fighting over all this other stuff. Oh, where is the funding for Medicaid and taxes? All very important. They're like, well, we just want the whole enchilada. We just, we just want to, we just want to control data and control jobs and control the economy. And these people in Washington are kind of clueless. Like there are people and members of Congress, I'm not going to say the names, who are asking the Google CEO about the iPhone. They don't know that Apple makes the iPhone, you know, they're, they're technol- Logically illiterate and they're just being run circles around and now they're saying like Congress you're so Illiterate just don't do anything, don't have any regulation, let us just do everything like really?

• 1:33:28Speaker 02

  We didn't fight a revolution in this country to let the tech billionaires get to decide our future. It's and and I think what we need, you know, FDR was a traitor to his own class. He came from from New York, Wall Street Finance, he said, no, I'm not gonna let finance dictate America. And in some ways, we need people from technology saying, yeah, we love technology, but no, technologists don't get to call the shots in this country. Theo's buddies get to call the shots and by the way, they got better judgment than you.

• 1:33:59Theo Von?

  Or just human beings, people with some, I think, because I'm not, I don't have the best morals in the world or anything, but I feel like I fucking try to be alive because that's what I'm I'm sentenced to right now is being alive on earth. So why don't, why don't, why isn't there a tech leader that comes out was like, this is the app that shows you exactly who's doing what? So you can, and this is how you start to change, like we need something that's step by step, almost a for dummies and I hate to say that, but we've all become dumbed down by our phones and games, but we need to know if we have, I mean, because I just feel like this is it. We gotta find a developer who's like, you know what? I'm gonna fucking try to save humanity.

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  You know who we could have, and maybe you should have him on here is Steve Wozniak. He's the, he's the guy who developed Apple with Steve Jobs.

• 1:34:43Theo Von?

  Cool guy?

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  Cool guy and he's a humanist, he's, he believes human values. We need some people like Wozniak, I mean, there are others, the Woz, you know, and you know, Steve Jobs in many ways was a, was a humanist. People who understand technology, but are like, you know, technology in the service of human values. We're not gods, we don't want to rule. I often say we need Silicon Valley in the service of America, not America in the service of Silicon Valley.

• 1:35:09Theo Von?

  Amen, amen, I agree. I would love to meet Mr. Wozniak and talk to him.

• 1:35:14Theo Von?

  Okay, you campaigned for, um, and I'm, yeah, I'm going back to some of my charts here, but that's all right today, guys. That's where I'm at. It's been a long week and it's been a long, uh, life. Um, you campaigned for Bernie Sanders in 2016 and co-chaired his presidential run in 2020.

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:31Theo Von?

  Is that right?

• 1:35:32Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:35:33Theo Von?

  We've, uh, asked him directly what happened, you know, and I was always a thing, I, I wish that they made it so that whoever won the presidency, the other per, like, if a president was Republican, the Democrat, the vice president had to be Democrat, right?

• 1:35:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:47Theo Von?

  I wish it was like that, because then it seems like there would be a-

• 1:35:50Speaker 02

  A common ground, or invited them to govern together, even, you know, like that.

• 1:35:54Theo Von?

  Then there has to be some sort of teamwork, because otherwise you outsource it, and it's just, it seems like it's so much more expensive. But what I was gonna ask you right here was, um, and we've asked him directly what happened, but in your opinion, why do you think that, uh, he lost out on the nomination both times? Because I think that's had an effect on, um, how the Democratic Party has been perceived over the years.

• 1:36:12Speaker 02

  Well, the establishment screwed him. I mean, there's no doubt about that. He, he should have been the nominee in 2020.

• 1:36:18Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:18Speaker 02

  You had the whole party, basically, like, drop out, tell people to drop out, and endorse Joe Biden. They resurrected Joe, Joe Biden. He had lost Iowa. He came in like fourth or fifth. He lost New Hampshire, fourth or fifth. It's never happened in the history of the party in recent history that someone is losing that badly and then wins. And they suddenly see Bernie's winning Iowa, he's winning New Hampshire, he's winning Nevada, unstoppable. Nate Silver had him at 70% odds to win the nomination at that point, and the party, uh, just reacts, and they say, no. And they convince Buttigieg to drop out and endorse Biden. They convince Beto to endorse Biden. They convince Klobuchar to, uh, endorse Biden.

• 1:36:58Theo Von?

  How'd they convince them all? Was it, uh, funding and stuff, you think?

• 1:37:01Speaker 02

  Well, I think they said, look, you, you wanna have a future, you can be in the, you can be in the cabinet, you can, we're gonna be for you. And then they're like, Bernie can't win, Bernie can't win. Come on! Donald Trump just won. He's talking about invading Greenland, and you're telling me we can't talk about Medicare for all? I mean, like, the one thing that Donald Trump has shown you is like, you can say what you believe.

• 1:37:21Theo Von?

  And you know, win.

• 1:37:22Speaker 02

  And, and, and that's like- JD had that too. He was like, you come on, I disagree with him, but you know where he stands. Like, just campaign with your heart, campaign with your ideas, that's what. And Bernie was speaking to people who were outsiders, who were underdogs. You know, I think that's why you and I resonate. I was an underdog growing up. I was not, I was not supposed to be a politician. I didn't have a father who was a senator, or a rich person, or a congressperson. Like, no one would have thought this Indian kid of Hindu faith was gonna have any shot to get elected the dog catcher in this country. But Bernie was speaking for all the folks who weren't supposed to make it, who aren't making it in this country.

• 1:38:03Theo Von?

  Bernie was an underdog.

• 1:38:04Speaker 02

  He was an underdog.

• 1:38:05Theo Von?

  That's another thing about Trump, though. Trump was also an underdog. You know what I'm saying? He did have part of that with him. A lot of these, but I do, I do think there's a, there's people that love an underdog, man. Um, okay, let's build the primary early, right? Uh, who should the Democrats run? Well, first of all, do you think we need to still have just Republican and Democratic Party? Or do you think there's value in getting a big financier to support like a third party? Like, say if Elon Musk decided to go and support a third party?

• 1:38:32Speaker 02

  I think there's a value in third parties. Here's the problem I have in terms of just like third parties running for president. A lot of times it has to be a billionaire. And then you're like, okay, is that billionaire really gonna have the values of the working class? But in terms of parties, and I'm one of the few people in the Democrat Party who says this, I think have more parties. You know, if like the Democrats are like, oh, your third party's gonna take away votes from us. That was like, be better. Like, it's not the voter's job to vote for you. It's your job to convince the voter. I never understood this with like the whole Harris Trump race. They're like, well, you know, Jill Stein is taking votes away from us. I was like, her job is to run. Your job is to convince people to vote for you.

• 1:39:11Theo Von?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  You know, it's like if like Apple computers wasn't selling iPhones. They're like, well, this other third party company is taking iPhone sales away from you. Okay, well, why aren't you making the iPhone better, right? And so I think having more parties is good. I still think the Democratic Party is the vehicle where we can really have a progressive, working-class agenda. I think we've got to reform it in the way Bernie Sanders was, was trying. And, uh, you know, and I think, and I think the Republican Party, I hope, will become more anti-war, will become more, uh, working-class centered, uh, so that we have, uh, reform in this country.

• 1:39:46Theo Von?

  Yeah, I just don't know how we could keep going with nothing because that's what it starts to almost feel like is that we're just they we're not even getting anything. Um, I've heard you talk about the idea of economic patriotism.

• 1:39:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:57Theo Von?

  What does that kind of mean when you say that? I like that terminology.

• 1:40:01Speaker 02

  My parents came to this country in the 1960s. It was the time John F. Kennedy said, let's go to the moon. Let's dream big. This country was humming. We were building things. We were making things. We were doing things for civilization. I think that's what can bring us together. Let's have a Marshall Plan, not for Europe, a 21st century Marshall Plan for America. Where we start to build new factories, new industry, new AI centers, new AI academies, new universities, new trade schools. And we come together in this country, white, black, Latino, Asian, to build things in America. Uh, and by the way, I think that's something even some of the MAGA folks would could get behind like, what is it?

• 1:40:42Speaker 02

  What? We, we need a new national purpose, you know, and when John F. Kennedy was president, 60% of Americans had trust in government. Today, it's probably like down to less than 20%. And the reality is, you know, we talked about the PAC money and the lobbyist money, but most people go into Congress, they are still, they want to do something for America. They, they, they.

• 1:41:00Theo Von?

  Really? You believe that?

• 1:41:01Speaker 02

  I do. I believe that about, you know, JD Vance and I've gotten into arguments. I believe that about him. Like I, I believe that.

• 1:41:07Theo Von?

  Oh, I do too about him. I do believe that.

• 1:41:09Speaker 02

  You know, I, I believe that about most people. Like I think they have a story. They, they, they want to do something good. The system is so broken, but you know what we need again is a vision that's going to inspire us to come together, uh, to do things. And, and economic patriotism, I think would be one of those visions. Like let's make a, let's redevelop communities.

• 1:41:30Theo Von?

  Yeah, me and Mike, I was talking with Mike Rowe and, uh, we've kind of started to put the wheels on creating like a, a, a place that's just American products, right? Where you go to buy stuff that's just American, you know, and start to see what that would look like. So that would be really interesting. To have like a new American kind of QVC, but all the stuff is just American stuff and, um.

• 1:41:49Speaker 02

  One of my bills is actually to give a tax credit at the end of the year if you keep your receipts and buy American. So. You buy an American glass, American book, you get to deduct it on your taxes.

• 1:42:01Theo Von?

  I love that. I mean, I love that. If we could, and also if we just didn't give money to some of these other places and stuff, that we, I think it would be, we'd have a lot of money for people. Yeah, it's funny that American, American manufacturing doesn't even seem to be a part of the democratic talking points anymore.

• 1:42:14Speaker 02

  Which is so ironic because FDR industrialized the whole country. You know, the, the tragedy I would say of Elon Musk, who I've, who I've known, is that he could have been Bill Nudson. I know you're like American history. Bill Nudson was this guy who was running GM.

• 1:42:28Theo Von?

  K N U D S E N?

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  K N U D S O N. And you can look him up and he was running GM and FDR says, you know, we need you. We need you to build American industry. We were making a thousand planes a year. Within a few years, Bill Nudson takes it to 300,000 planes. And instead, I mean, the tragedy in my view of Musk is he was undermining and destroying like the NIH and all these agencies. Where what we needed is someone to come in and say, let's industrialize this country. Let's work with labor to build new industry, new jobs. The Democrats did that. Like we, I don't understand how we let Trump become the made in America guy. We, we need to be the party that says, here's our vision for making things in America. And wouldn't it be great?

• 1:43:14Speaker 02

  If the argument in this country was who was going to build America better? And like Trump's like, here are my ideas. And we were like, here are our ideas. And maybe you take the best of those ideas. But how about a common goal again? Like I, I think the country is exhausted. We're embarrassed. They see all of us in Congress and I'm guilty of this too sometimes and we're arguing and name calling. And they're like, yeah, but my life, like I can't afford a house. My kids aren't going to have the same job I did. I don't know where I'm going. I don't know what's happening with this country. Like just get your act together and get some direction. This supposedly the greatest country in the world. And start working together on Team America.

• 1:43:53Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, the, the, the dream is fading. I feel like some, and I don't want to be a pessimist, but I don't, I, I feel like. I don't want to say the dream is fading, but I want to say that's, that it feels like.

• 1:44:12Theo Von?

  We don't all have the same dream that's fading. That's the part that feels like it's fading. It used to be that you'd go to bed at night and it felt like you all had this universal dream, you know, I think.

• 1:44:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, and we've, we've lost that, like, what is the common American dream and, and we've, one, we're so divided, right? Life is so different for some people in Silicon Valley than it is for folks who are like, how am I gonna pay my medical bills? How am I gonna pay for rent? How are my kids gonna have a decent job? And the other thing is that we lack a common sense of vision. Like, what are we doing as a society together? As Americans? And I, you know, I think if, if we get people talking about that, and, and that's why I say a Marshall Plan, economic patriotism, rebuilding this country, and that doesn't mean old factories, like, it's gonna be the new, modern factories, new industries.

• 1:45:00Theo Von?

  Well, I think people, it's also gonna get weird if people, that some of the greed doesn't end, that people are just gonna wanna see the rich start to suffer. And that's when shit can get really weird. That's when you start getting people in a revolutionary thought. But then maybe, who knows? Maybe we just, you know, we just slowly drift off into the ether of our sofa with, uh, Cheez-Its on our chest, you know? I don't know, some man with fake breasts laying there eating Cheez-Its, you know? And just drifting into the ether of existence.

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  That would be sad if we don't, you know.

• 1:45:29Theo Von?

  But I hope that's not our Paul Revere, right? I hope that there is still, like, a lot of people who believe in something, and I think there is. And I think there's people that want something new. I'm glad, I'm glad that even, uh, just saying, asking Mike Johnson for help with that thing, you know? I think that that's, um, neat, just 'cause I didn't even know that we could do that, you know? Um, what was it, anything else we wanted to talk about? We're almost there. Let me see. Um, oh, one thing that J.D. Vance said that was really interesting the first time I spoke with him was, he said that a lot of Congress people and representatives will go, uh, turn over to be, or senators, will turn over to be lobbyists. Because they don't get paid enough by the government type of situation. Is that true?

• 1:46:13Theo Von?

  Take me down a little bit of that discussion where, um, the, the salary's better being a lobbyist. than it is to be on on the this side.

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  Well, he's absolutely right, and it's terrible what happens. I mean, you are in Congress, you're working on the Armed Services Committee overseeing defense contractors, then you'll retire, and suddenly you'll become a lobbyist for the defense industry. You'll go from making a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year to making a million dollars a year. And that's why I have a bill. It's called the Drain the Swamp Act or my Political Reform Act, and it says ban members of Congress from ever becoming lobbyists. Now, you know, Harry Truman won World War II. He did more than anyone in Congress put together, and he started NATO. And Harry Truman, at the end of his presidency, the guy who wins World

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  War II, sets us up for the post Cold, post-World War II order, writes to someone when they, he was invited to give a speech, he said, I'm a little embarrassed. Betsy and I can't afford the train ride. Can you pay for the train ride? Happy to give the speech, right? It used to be you went into politics not to get rich. And I don't begrudge people who are wealthy. There are a lot of people who are wealthy, but you shouldn't be in public service to make money. And afterwards, you can do a lot of things. Go do something in AI, go do something, you know, don't go and lobby. Don't become a member of Congress who's just going to cash out by lobbying. It's something I will never do, but it's also a ban we should have. And I, you know, maybe we can make that a bipartisan effort.

• 1:47:49Theo Von?

  I don't see how it couldn't be because every human wants it on both sides. So I don't see why it just keeps happening. And yeah, if you're good at your job of being a congressman or a senator, are they different ones? Yeah.

• 1:48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:01Theo Von?

  Then afterwards, you could do a tour at all the donut shops. You show up over there.

• 1:48:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:06Theo Von?

  People pay in a heartbeat to show up there, take photos and stuff, have a, get a hug or something, get a glazed.

• 1:48:14Speaker 02

  Just the one thing they shouldn't do is start a podcast. Politicians, podcasts are terrible. They're like so boring.

• 1:48:19Theo Von?

  Newsom tried it.

• 1:48:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I mean, it's just kind of because it's like so stilted and it's not, there's no humor. You gotta have some humor like, you know, the politician by the straight guy, you need someone who's funny. You need like this conversation, it's kind of all over the place. It's not, it's not like, oh, wow, what are the poll numbers on this? So it's just, I've never seen a politician who had a good, interesting podcast.

• 1:48:41Theo Von?

  Yeah, I think that that would be a bit much maybe, but I don't know, shit. I mean, anybody could do it. Sorry for saying shit right in front of you, sir.

• 1:48:46Speaker 02

  Oh, no, not at all.

• 1:48:47Theo Von?

  Well, I should have done better.

• 1:48:49Speaker 02

  No, not at all.

• 1:48:51Theo Von?

  Oh, um, I did have this question, though. We're talking about that. Um, you voted in the past about finances. Um, you voted in the past to ban members of Congress from trading and holding individual stocks. Uh, this hasn't happened yet, right?

• 1:49:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:04Theo Von?

  Um, why do you think that hasn't happened, you know? Like if Martha Stewart went to prison, then Nancy Pelosi should go to prison, it feels like, you know?

• 1:49:11Speaker 02

  Well, I, I, I don't think that Pelosi, in my view, I mean, this has done, uh, things that are unethical. But I think that there's this, such a trust deficit.

• 1:49:21Theo Von?

  Okay.

• 1:49:21Speaker 02

  In the Congress, that people think that the biggest problem is money in politics, right? They're taking all this money from PACs, they're taking all this money from lobbyists. But at the same time, uh, people are concerned if members of Congress are individually trading stock. And so the bill I've supported, calling for a ban on stock trading, is a No Trust Act. And it says, you know, put your money in a trust, have someone else manage it. Don't be there trading stocks or telling your advisor to trade stocks while you're creating a conflict. And, uh, why has India gotten a vote? Uh, I don't know. It's something Johnson can, Johnson could get us a vote on. I, I think it would pass overwhelmingly and we've got a bipartisan group, uh, that's pushing for a vote on that.

• 1:50:06Speaker 02

  But you, if you do the five parts of my political reform plan, ban PAC money, ban super PACs, ban lobbyists from getting money, ban members of Congress from ever becoming a lobbyist, and ban stock trading in Congress, I think you would start to restore trust in Congress. And some of the MAGA folks actually have liked the plan the most. I had a Drain the Swamp Act, which I said, you want to drain the swamp? How about just telling lobbyists they can't give gifts to White House officials? And someone's like, oh, you only wanted to apply for Donald Trump. No, I was like, I wanted to apply whether it's Donald Trump or a Democratic president.

• 1:50:40Theo Von?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, all the things you're saying seem very.

• 1:50:46Theo Von?

  Like, I think these are things that are super important. I feel like it's things that feel, most people feel are super important. And that's, but, but it never what happens. It's like, it just like, we talk about these things. Everybody's like, yeah, and then it gets to some place where it all, nothing ever really evolves, it feels like. And that's where I feel like we're at now. Instead, Hollywood gives us like, here's a Diddy case, go like, you know, keep the black population at ease, you know, like, uh, or here's a, um, you know, we'll stretch the NBA finals another week. We'll send in a special ref that'll-

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  Are you for the Pacers?

• 1:51:18Theo Von?

  Allegedly, I'm for the Pacers. Um, I like Halliburton. I think he's just a super guy, but, um, but, uh, or, um, yeah, I know, it just, it feels like it never gets there. Um, you, you had, let me see, my producer also, you have a, but your family owns stock? Or you had stock in your family before you got married?

• 1:51:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:36Theo Von?

  How does, how would that relate into a congressman or, or Senator owning-

• 1:51:42Speaker 02

  Well, under the, under the trust act, people can, members of Congress and they can be in a trust. They just can't trade stock. They can't trade stock. And that, I think that, that's why I've sponsored the bill. I think that we, what we want to do is eliminate, uh, conflicts. And if you can, uh, have, uh, the no trust act happen, it says, uh, members of Congress cannot trade stock. Uh, if there are any assets, they put them in a trust, uh, and that would eliminate conflicts. But what, what, what is upsetting to people is, uh, people making, uh, trades while they're, uh, doing policy. And that's where the conflict is. The federal employees currently aren't allowed to do that. They have to have their money in, uh, in some trust.

• 1:52:25Theo Von?

  Yeah. Yeah. Because it would almost be, I mean, they, ethically it doesn't make sense, but it would be hard not to. You're in a meeting and you're hearing about this or that, to get on your phone and get on your app and, uh, and, and make a trade, you know? Heck, if I'm watching a SportsCenter highlight or something and I see like one of the players has a cough or something, I'm betting against that team the next night, you know? Like, if, you know, if I see Walker Bueller's, uh, you know, if he seems like he's angry about something the next day, I'm gonna, I'll probably bet he has a few more strikeouts.

• 1:52:50Speaker 02

  Well, I, I, look, I think the honest truth is there are not many Pete Roses in the Congress. There are not many people honestly- Who are out there trading on information. You know, all my parties, for example, gone after Marjorie Taylor Greene, and she says that she's got an independent advisor who's making the trades. I actually believe her. I believe her. But the problem is that the perception that has been created is that people are benefiting from this. So just pass the No Trust Act. It's got bipartisan support. People, if they have assets, they can put them in a in a trust. They can have it independently managed. Then you know that they're not sitting there making trades or telling people what to do.

• 1:53:32Theo Von?

  Can they legally advise the trust advisor?

• 1:53:34Speaker 02

  They can't in day to day trading. They can't. They can. They can set it up, but they can't tell the trust advisor, okay, trade here, trade there, and it has to be all disclosed. And that that would assure the American people that you don't have people out there trading on stocks in a way that is that they can't.

• 1:53:55Theo Von?

  Yeah. You know, the craziest thing is, I just thought sometimes that one of the benefits of the surveillance system would be that finally we get to see what all these senators and congresspeople and everybody's up to, you know?

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:54:07Theo Von?

  I wish you could just tell us like, do a, I wish you had a breathalyzer for if people were being honest or not. That's what we need. That's what we need.

• 1:54:16Speaker 02

  There you go. Have forced a lie detector test. Next time I'm on, maybe I'm have to like do a lie detector.

• 1:54:23Theo Von?

  Take that back to Silicon Valley with you. Rohana, that's your name.

• 1:54:29Speaker 02

  You got that. You got the pronunciation perfect.

• 1:54:31Theo Von?

  I'm getting better. Yeah, I got to go to India once. I went to Madras one time and had a really great time. Really loved it. A lot of excitement, energy in the faces of the in the eyes and the smiles of the people there thoroughly enjoyed it. Best of luck to you, man. I appreciate you coming on and talking. Keep us out of Iran unless we're already there. I know we've been on the air for a couple hours, so.

• 1:54:52Speaker 02

  But with Massey, we're gonna do it together and with your advocacy and keep up your voice. You know, it gives me hope that we got people like you out there just speaking from your heart. And don't let anyone say you don't know what you're talking about. You know, you know a lot more of what you're talking about than a lot of the people running this country.

• 1:55:11Theo Von?

  But thank you much, so much for your time. Yep.

• 1:55:13Speaker 02

  Appreciate you.

• 1:55:26Speaker 03

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