Clinical Psychologist on Setting Clear Boundaries ft. Dr. Henry Cloud

Most people think boundaries are about telling someone else what they can or can't do. They're not. Boundaries are about deciding what you'll do when someone crosses the line—and that changes everything. In this conversation, I'm joined by Dr. Henry Cloud, whose work on boundaries has helped millions of people navigate relationships, leadership, and life. We talk about the difference between hope and wishful thinking, the signs someone is genuinely willing to change, why so many difficult conversations fail before they even begin, and how to know when a relationship deserves another chance—or when it's time for a necessary ending. Check out all of Dr. Cloud’s books here - https://www.drcloud.com/books-index Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Monarch Money. 50% off your first year at https://monarchmoney.com/jefferson David. Subscribe and save 10% on every order’ at https://davidprotein.com/jefferson BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Jefferson Fisher?

  When does somebody know that they should say, "You know what this needs? This needs a boundary."

• 0:36Speaker 02

  You're wired with a system.

• 0:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  That from your spinal cord, all the way through your gut, in your neurophysiology, the neurochemistry, all of that system, like a security alarm system, it's running 24/7, asking one question: "Am I safe?"

• 0:57Speaker 02

  That's what the human organism has got to know all the time. I mean, you've been breathing for the last...

• 1:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Didn't even know.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Careless. You can trust it. You don't have to watch your back.

• 1:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  But if you smelled a fuming, that system would kick in and say, "Hit pause." So when you say, "When is it time for a boundary?" Your system is going to tell you.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  "Something doesn't feel good here." They're violating your property, either your head, your heart, your mind, or your soul. It's getting a little bit... Something doesn't feel right. Now, you may be crazy. Just because you're not paranoid doesn't...

• 1:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, sure.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Sometimes we get scared when we shouldn't be. But a lot of times, all the times, we need to stop, pause. You're very good at this, in helping people. You don't have to answer right now.

• 1:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Boundaries are about differentiating yourself from the other. Yourself and other. And so, people are trying to control you or manipulate you. They're trying to get to the steering wheel of your car.

• 2:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Roll up the window, stay in your lane, take a minute. If you're hearing something from... It could be your feelings, it could be your gut, it could be... What you think about what they said, there are a lot of different boundaries. But that's when to do it, first become self-aware.

• 2:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  That would help.

• 2:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, that would help. That would help. And I love that you use your property. Like, I think that's-

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Well, you're a lawyer.

• 2:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  What, where's the boundary of the property-

• 2:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  To determine when the tree falls, who's responsible for that?

• 2:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41Jefferson Fisher?

  You know, what's, what's the perimeter? What's your, what's your border? And not only for land, but also in terms of what they, they call chattel. Like your, your actual, those are my-

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Your stuff.

• 2:54Jefferson Fisher?

  It's my, your stuff, my clothes, my, my food, my, my family, my friends.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Okay, that's a good, that's a perfect, you said, you know, when do you, well, your boundaries, your property line does two things. It keeps the good stuff in and say, and it keeps the bad stuff out. It's why you have a fence.

• 3:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  So what's the chattel? The good stuff? Your feelings, your attitudes, your behaviors, your choices, your limits, your values, your desires, your thoughts, and the things you love. So your boundaries are there to protect, and those can be your signals. If something feels right, or if I'm, can somebody get me to behave in a way, or make a choice I don't want, or this really is not something I desire, or now they're screwing my thinking.

• 3:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Which gaslighting does, among other things, or guilt, manipulation.

• 3:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, or shame. I mean, like, I think, makes me think of when you see your friend being nice to somebody else, you're like, hold on, that's, that's my friend. Like, you, you know what I mean? Like, it's easy because it's not just within your body, it also expands to those whom you-

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Whom you love, you go, they're now in my circle. And so when you, you have that, it goes, okay, that's, that's the push. But I, I love that you used the word-

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Well, who do you want to look, move into your neighborhood?

• 4:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly. Of like, what's your, your heart, mind, your gut, your center? I just feel something, and that's when it's, your body goes, something is off. And just the way that we breathe and our heart beats, that system of, I need to feel safe, operates 24-

• 4:27Speaker 02

  24/7.

• 4:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Even when you're asleep.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  What happens if you hear a noise?

• 4:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly. And you like perk up, and you go, what, what was that? How did that, and what's crazy is- I didn't think about this. You know, when that's that creaky, you know, that one stair that always creaks, or that fan, or that refrigerator noise, that doesn't, you've learned that's safe. But after that, it's, you can go, no, this is something, something's, something's off here.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  And, I mean, that's so good, because, take two different people.

• 5:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  One of them, you know, you know, they're kind of quirky. Sometimes I say stuff that, but you, you trust them and you know they're good.

• 5:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Sure.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Somebody else can say the same thing. And your sense is, no, when that person says that, they're out to get something.

• 5:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  When that person says that, they're just, I screwed up for them.

• 5:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  You know, when to open the door, when to close it.

• 5:29Jefferson Fisher?

  For sure. Oh, yeah. I think there's, there's, there's a lot there. And we talked about the timing. When do you know you should do a boundary? Second, I want to kind of move towards, when you, I know how I frame boundaries and people frame it. In other words, the words to use, because.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Well, that's where, you know, I gotta tell you, guys, I mean, are you really good at giving, people need, I tell people all the time, before a difficult conversation, if you're not good at this, other than watch Jefferson. And you can watch Jefferson do this. Sit down and get a script.

• 6:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Write it down.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Because that's, you know, your language centers in your brain actually map a lot of behavior. And you should get a few of these lines, like you give people, and get a script. Secondly, if it's gonna be tough, go role play it with someone. Get a friend to play that difficult, you know what.

• 6:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Person, yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  And so you can practice.

• 6:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  And then you're gonna be more equipped. And then I tell them to, you know, get a difficult conversation sandwich. Before you talk to that person, meet with your, your shrink or your support friend or whatever. Talk about what you said. Know what you gotta go out of there, having said, and what you don't want to say.

• 6:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  Go in there and do it. And promise them your own column afterwards. It's amazing what that will do.

• 6:58Jefferson Fisher?

  I, when I think of, when someone goes, how do I, you know, put a boundary in with their boss? It always goes to, what are you asking, what are you wanting to do? Cause a lot of the times they don't know that.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Imagine asking that question.

• 7:14Jefferson Fisher?

  It's the first question they go, well, I didn't really think about that, you know, let me, let me think. I go, well, let's, let's start there, you know?

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Remember in Alice in Wonderland?

• 7:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  She comes to the forest in the road, Cheshire Cat's sitting there, she goes, which way do I go? He goes, where are you trying to get to? She goes, I don't know. He says, it doesn't much matter.

• 7:29Jefferson Fisher?

  It doesn't matter.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  And then she says, well, I want to go somewhere. He said, oh, you will.

• 7:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. That's right. I want to go somewhere.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  And in a conversation.

• 7:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Especially in significant relationships, especially with a difficult person. It's so important to know what you want in your, on your property, in your life. If you know what you want, and you don't want deception, you don't want control. You don't want abandonment.

• 7:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  When that shows up, it's a lot easier when you know what you want. And you've hit on a key point. You know, this attorney thing, you should have been a shrink.

• 8:05Jefferson Fisher?

  You know what? I, my dad was practically one because he taught me in what they call the Socratic method. That was how they do that in law school teaching, the professor asks questions. That was the way I got taught lessons. You know, I'd be upset with mom about something. He'd go, what do you think she's thinking about this? Come on, that's not what I want to talk about. You know, I need to be, you need to be angry. And that's, that was never kind of his, thankfully, that was never his, his lane. I'm, I want to give you my framework of I like, and I want you to poke holes in it. Or something you think I should add.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  There's all law school training.

• 8:40Jefferson Fisher?

  There we go. Tell me, tell me what I'm missing here.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  You know, it's just, it's just frightening to be in a room with an attorney. You know, you know.

• 8:49Jefferson Fisher?

  You're right. You're right.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Okay, I gotta tell you a funny.

• 8:53Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm ready.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  A funny attorney story about boundaries with your kids.

• 8:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, perfect.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  How old are your kids?

• 8:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Eight and six.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Okay. Perfect age. My girls are about that age and, and that, you know, they're, they're coming to you going, and Lucy, the little one's like, dad, Olivia didn't, you know? And then Olivia runs, no, she, and so they're getting this thing. And so one day I said, hey, girls, just, just stop. Let me explain this to you. What you have here is called the dispute. Now dispute is when you have an argument over something. And what people do with disputes is they take it to the judge, and that's what you've done. So you brought this dispute into daddy court.

• 9:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Daddy court.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  And I'm gonna be the judge, alright? And what that means, I'm gonna listen to what you say, I'm gonna listen to what she says, and I'm gonna say one of you is right and the other one's wrong, and I'll decide. They go, okay. I said, well, hang on.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Daddy court's not free, there's court fees. And they go, what do you mean, court fees? I said, well, I mean, court, you know, the judge has got to get paid, you're renting this courtroom. It's gonna, well, they said, how much are the court fees? I said, depends on how long the trial goes, how complicated it is. And they said, well, what, what are, I said, I don't know. I mean, it could cost you your bike, or your American Girl doll, or your, and they literally looked at each other and said, that's okay, we'll figure it out.

• 10:20Jefferson Fisher?

  We'll figure it out.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  So.

• 10:22Jefferson Fisher?

  That's good.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  A boundary will offload the responsibility to the only person who can control it. And then they have to own it. And, there you go. All of a sudden, they found something called self-control.

• 10:38Jefferson Fisher?

  And they said, you know what, I think we can figure this out.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  I think we can figure this out. Why am I taking responsibility for your argument?

• 10:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, no joke. Alright, here's my, my method, that's what I like, is, so one, I tell people what we don't, what I don't accept or reject, or I don't permit into my, my border, right, my fence perimeter.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Perfect.

• 11:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Two, is I tell them the condition. If this continues, if trespass continues, then three is the consequence.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Violators will be prosecuted.

• 11:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly, exactly, exactly, and it is my, and that's where it comes down to, you have to be willing to do it. Because we know what it's like when somebody goes, if you say that one more time, I swear I'm going to, and they don't do it. And then the other person goes, well, I got you then.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  It's out of boundary. It's nagging.

• 11:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, yeah, that's exactly right. So it could be, I don't respond to disrespect if you continue to speak to me disrespectfully. This is the end of the conversation of like putting that in a box. Okay, it's now been Henry Cloud, Dr. Cloud approved. So this is what I'm gonna put right underneath it.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Let me dissect something really important here that you're doing.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  What you did was, and this is where a lot of people, a lot of people say, well, I'm gonna put a boundary on that person. There's no such thing.

• 12:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, on that person?

• 12:09Speaker 02

  And they say it all the time. You can't put a boundary on someone. You put boundaries on yourself.

• 12:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Self-control. You cannot control another person. They can continue to be an idiot, or scream, or take care of one, or whatever it is. And what you did was, you said, basically without saying it, you said, you can continue to disrespect me. I don't allow myself to engage with that. And if you do, I will take control of myself and remove myself from this conversation. Now, you can stay here for three weeks talking to air.

• 12:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  I just won't be here.

• 12:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  I mean, your mouth is really...

• 12:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, I think that's where, and I know you talk about this, of the you versus I. And where it's, you can't yell at me, which gives them all the power, and in fact, will only guarantee that they will continue to...

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, I can. Watch this.

• 13:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Watch this. You think, you think this is yelling?

• 13:13Jefferson Fisher?

  You think, yeah, you know what I had to grow up with? You think this is yelling?

• 13:16Speaker 02

  I love this. Just keep going.

• 13:17Jefferson Fisher?

  That kind of stuff, right?

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Shut up, or I'll give you something to whine about.

• 13:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly, exactly. Versus the, I don't respond to that volume. You know, that, that's, that to me, once somebody engages, that kind of shift is exactly what you said. It's a, it's controlling what I'm gonna do.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  And you're the only one you can control.

• 13:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  You've got to transfer the need to change the behavior. See, right now, I'm feeling the need for you to stop yelling.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  But I can't control it. So what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna transfer the need to stop yelling to the only person who can stop yelling.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  That's the magic formula and then they can choose. Do they need their relationship or the time with you more than they need yelling? Or do they choose yelling? It's up to them.

• 14:08Jefferson Fisher?

  I feel like I am Luke Skywalker talking to Obi-Wan. Communication is what it feels like. Yeah, I'm telling you.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  Well, I feel like there's a term unconscious competent. I mean, you have been doing this so well, you just didn't know all the part it was.

• 14:24Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm not a clinical psychologist.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you're an attorney and attorneys are. The whole law is boundaries. You know, we're talking about.

• 14:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, for good or for bad. And they change. Exactly. That's true.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  And in contract law.

• 14:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  It's looking ahead at the relationship.

• 14:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Saying, this is what I want to happen. And we had mutually agreed upon expectations. This is what I'm going to do. This is what you're going to do.

• 14:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yep.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  And if one of us doesn't, here's what's going to happen.

• 14:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Yep. And I mean, every insurance contract is here's this and here's what we exclude. And then they have exceptions to the exclusions and there's all, it's all boundaries in some way or another. I want to make sure that I.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  People that are in relationships, they don't even know what their own expectations are.

• 15:15Jefferson Fisher?

  That's true.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Until they're violated. And what you said is so important to. In your life, you've got to define. These are the kind of people I want in my life. These are the kind of people I won't allow because it doesn't go well. And it's my job to enforce that.

• 15:34Jefferson Fisher?

  It's nobody else's.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 15:36Jefferson Fisher?

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• 16:18Jefferson Fisher?

  The way that David has done this, which to me is. Almost magic is the flavors they have taste like the flavors they say they will. So for example, my wife loves the smores flavor. You eat it, it tastes exactly like smores. So if you want to be able to eat something that you feel is healthy, you know it's good. You know that it's top quality tier. Look no farther than David. So head on over to davidprotein.com/jefferson. When you buy four cartons, you get the fifth free. And you can also use their store locator to find David Protein at a store near you. And now let's keep going.

• 16:54Jefferson Fisher?

  How does one know when the end of a friendship relationship is not only advisable, but also necessary?

• 17:08Speaker 02

  I think the first sentence of the book I put, "Your today may be the biggest enemy of your tomorrow." Meaning what's going on right now may be incompatible with the tomorrow you want to have, be that tomorrow or next week or six months from now or 20 years from now. And what's going on right now, it is necessary for that to end. If you're going to have the tomorrow you want and not want to have this same conversation six months from now, a year from. So back to you, you gotta know what you want.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  And then these things happen, happens all the time. One of the greatest humans, human virtues is hope. Things aren't where they ought to be, but we hope they'll be different. And what I talked about in the book is you've got to learn the difference between a wish and hope. A wish means I want them to be different. Hope is objective. Hope has grounding in some reason to hope.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  And so what you've got to diagnose is when we come to this juncture where this is going on and do I need to end this or should I keep going? You've got to, the worst thing you can do when you're headed down a wrong road is hope that it's going to turn into the right road. You are down the wrong road.

• 18:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, right.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  It is necessary to end that turnaround and go back to the beginning. But there is time to have hope and what you've got to ask is, is, is there an objective reason why if I continue in this, it's going to be different? And there are objective factors that you can look for that can tell you that. And if you don't see them, proceed at your own risk.

• 19:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Which is what you guys put on signs on people's properties.

• 19:15Jefferson Fisher?

  That's right.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  There's alligators, proceed at your own risk.

• 19:18Jefferson Fisher?

  That's right, exactly.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  And, and, and you gotta figure that out. I mean, just a few of them. I've got an actual list in there, but the first one is, is there an awareness and an ownership by the other person, an ownership of what they are doing is not okay?

• 19:38Jefferson Fisher?

  That's key. This first is ownership element.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Ownership.

• 19:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  If they are still excusing it, blaming you for it, blaming external factors, minimizing it, all the things that the classic narcissist does.

• 19:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Hmm.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  You know, the denial, the minimizing, the excusing, the blaming. If you see that, you are not at the point to have hope. Because they're the only ones that can change and you can't change your problem if you don't have one. And if they still think they don't have a problem, get ready for tomorrow to look like today.

• 20:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  So if they own it and they understand empathically, you know, trust, trust is in part based on the other person understanding the effect of what they do has on us, what we need, what hurts us. And if they understand it and can get out of their self-centeredness into an awareness of, I can see this really hurting.

• 20:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Acknowledgement.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Acknowledgement.

• 20:37Jefferson Fisher?

  De-affirmation.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  And see it and empathize with it and truly be remorseful that I don't want to treat you like that. I care about you.

• 20:48Jefferson Fisher?

  What hurts you hurts me.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 20:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's a good start.

• 20:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Love it.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  That's the start.

• 20:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Now, we can talk, okay? Now, if they own it, do they really understand what the behavior is? And then if they say, "Okay, I know that hurt you. I'm so sorry. I won't do it anymore." That's not enough. What is new and different? That's gonna ensure that won't happen again? If my, if I got a bent axle on my car and it's going like this and I pull over and say, "You're riding my car," and it says, "Okay, I'm sorry. I won't do it anymore." That ain't enough, buddy.

• 21:29Jefferson Fisher?

  That ain't gonna do it.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  So then, we've got to see.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  What is going to be involved in some sort of process to enable them to change? Or that, do they say, "I'm gonna get a coach. I'm gonna get a therapist. I've got an accountability group. I'm going into treatment." Whatever. We gotta see something new and different. It's going to build the capacity for them to be able to do what they're promising us they're gonna do. And then, we gotta see them having some sort of a verifiable,

• 22:07Speaker 02

  you know, adherence to that. They're actually showing up. So, "Oh, I'm gonna go to AA or something. Where are you going?" You know, it's some way to verify that.

• 22:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Which gives you security, yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Yes. And another one. The motivation to change? It's gotta come from them. If you're having to push them, "You didn't go to therapy, you know, you said you, and you, come on, let's go." You can trust people who want to be the person you need for them to be, but they want it on their own. Even if you walked away,

• 22:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  They're gonna get sober for themselves.

• 22:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  They're gonna turn into a trustworthy person, cuz that's the person they wanna be. If you're having to drive it, what happens when you stop pushing? So, I mean, you've seen this in court.

• 22:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Sure.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Somebody goes to court, you go for the judge, and they want, you know, some sort of leniency or some sort of... And the judge is gonna go, "Well, show me what you plan to do." You know, and, "Well, we'll see you in a month, in six months. We'll see if you're sticking to that." And there you go.

• 23:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Do you find that, by the way, I love all this stuff. I feel like I'm, like, breathing straight oxygen right now. I love, I love this kind of stuff. So, because all of those things that you talked about are so critical, not only to, not only to business in many ways, they're also incredibly important to relationships. They're important to trauma, or shame, or addiction, or, I mean, any kind of repair that you're having to go through and say, "Okay, is this something that we can... Is it repairable or not?" And so what I hear you saying is some factors that tell you, are they, is it worth repairing or not? Is there an ownership by them?

• 24:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Is there an actual acknowledgement, affirmation of saying, "I concede that what I've done has caused you pain, and that hurts me, and I don't like that, and I don't want that."

• 24:12Speaker 02

  I love what you said. What hurts you hurts me.

• 24:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, what hurts you hurts me. And three, this aspect of, can you see the inner desire for change, separate and apart? I mean, that, that desire for change lives apart from you to be able to continue to go. Do you find that when we come to this necessary ending, if I'm going to communicate, if you're gonna talk to somebody across from you, and they go, "Dr. Gah, how do I know if I need to cut, if I need to end this relationship?" Now, you could have some of those three factors. Is there one overlying principle that you would share with that person? If you could just have two sentences.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  With the person?

• 24:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Well, you start with, you know, we talked about it earlier, kind of what the boundary is of what you will accept and can accept and desire and what you don't. Now, a lot of times, even in business, or if somebody's dating, or whatever, or marriage, it's important to tell somebody, you know, let's say they work for you. So, you know, you, you have an important seat that you sit in. That position that you sit in is really important to the success of this team and this company and our customers. And whoever sits in that seat, this is what I'll need to see from them. I hope that's you.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  But this is what I'll need to see from whoever occupies that seat. I hope it's you. And you're the one that gets to choose. If you want to be in that seat, then we can talk about a path to get there. That will start a great conversation.

• 25:54Jefferson Fisher?

  That's so good, oh my gosh.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  I mean, what if you're-

• 25:56Jefferson Fisher?

  I love, I hope that's you.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Well, they, think of-

• 26:00Jefferson Fisher?

  That's so good.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  I mean, even, you know, let's say a spouse, somebody had an affair or something.

• 26:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  I love you, but whoever I'm married to is not gonna be doing that.

• 26:14Jefferson Fisher?

  No, they can't keep doing that.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Whoever sits in that chair and is my spouse will not be sleeping with me.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Whoever it is. I want that to be you.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  So, but you're gonna have to figure out if you can sit in that chair or not. That's up to you. And if you decide you want to, then we can talk about a path, how to possibly get back.

• 26:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. And that goes back to the, first off, for that other person, the boundaries that have to be adhered to and knowing the consequence if they're not. And then that goes back to the ownership, the affirmation, the willingness to change.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  And structured path, proven path.

• 27:00Jefferson Fisher?

  The proven path.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Some way to validate that. And when you got all that, that's just like, I signed up for college, well, what kind of grades are you making? I mean, there's gotta be a track record of them showing up and incremental invitation back, not all or nothing. They're doing this, oh, we're back to where we were. No. And I just saw a couple turn around the worst scenario. I mean, it's nobody had any hope. Everybody was telling to divorce. And they turned it around. It took a minute.

• 27:36Jefferson Fisher?

  I bet.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  But they turned it around. And what was, what was so key to that is that when, and in this case, she was the one that change had to come from. And he had changed, but she was the big baller. And when he agreed to open himself up to that process, he didn't say, okay, great. Moved back in, they were separated. He said, we're gonna start with having one date per week. And I'm gonna see if you're different on it.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Because she was pretty abusive.

• 28:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  If something triggered her, I mean, she could, he wanted to see if she could have a conversation and talk about stuff without, and then when she passed that thing, and then they gradually, and now they are, and it's been a while now together.

• 28:38Jefferson Fisher?

  You say a while, how many years?

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Since that?

• 28:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Uh, they're about two years now and they say they're in love more and having the greatest marriage they've ever had. And it was everybody telling him he should divorce her.

• 28:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Wow.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  But that's the path that they worked.

• 28:58Jefferson Fisher?

  I think that shows a lot of the two sides of the necessary ending. And that you use that phrase, what was it, the today and the tomorrow? Say it again, if you don't mind.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  Today may be the biggest enemy of your tomorrow.

• 29:16Jefferson Fisher?

  That's so good. I feel like I'm just getting constant just bombs. These are so good. I love this cut. This cut, the kind of stuff, I keep a collection of like phrases that I love. That's one of them. I'm definitely adding that to one of them. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Monarch. As the summer is heating up, you want to be focused on summer plans, having fun with your family and friends and doing things and not concerned about your money. Well, Monarch makes it that much easier to stay focused on the sunshine outdoors. What it is, it is a app, all right? An online financial dashboard to where it has all the inputs from whether it's your income, the cash, investments, whatever you have going on.

• 30:00Jefferson Fisher?

  And it's saying what all is coming in and what all is going out. That you can see it all in one glance from either your phone or your laptop. And what I really like about it is it makes it very clear of where everything's going and takes all the guesswork out of it. And they now have this AI weekly recap where AI will tell you and answer questions like, where is my money going? Where am I spending too much on? What do you recommend? That kind of stuff gives you confidence and clarity to make sure that you're making financial decisions that's going to help your family. And when you can make it that much more convenient and that much easier, it's going to make your life that much easier. And you know what? It's going to make that summer and those summer plans and getting that summer body, maybe, I don't know, that much easier. So you can go over to monarch.com or you can get 50 half off at Monarch Core, that

• 30:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Monarch Core subscription for $50, which is pretty awesome. Monarch.com/Jefferson for $50 off, half off. And now let's keep going. You, I heard you speak at church and you did an awesome job so well that I thought you were the, it was our first time visiting there and I thought you were the pastor, as I said.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  You know, pastors get paid to be good. I'm good for nothing. I can't be that holy all the time.

• 31:14Jefferson Fisher?

  All the time. Well, you made a, you made a point that has stuck with me and I mentioned this to you when I saw you over the weekend. Was this element of seasons. Now, as a, as a dad, as a, a, a parent of an eight year old and a six year old, I look at other couples.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  And you're like, looking, it's almost halftime.

• 31:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Uh, yeah, don't say that to me, please.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Clock's running and you gotta figure out, how long do we still have to win? How are we doing? Going to the halftime huddle? This is a crucial season.

• 31:46Jefferson Fisher?

  This is a super crucial season. I agree. I agree. Uh, we're making, we're making the right place right now.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 31:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Making the right place. And you, you said, sometimes you have to know what season of life that you're in.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 32:02Jefferson Fisher?

  And how that spoke to me was I see these other dads who play golf all the time. Or I see these dads who go hunting and fishing all the time. And a golf tournament or a fishing tournament, or they're going to this show or that show. And I think sometimes I truly, I think that would be nice. I'd like to go do that.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 32:26Jefferson Fisher?

  And then I, something happens when I look at my kids and I go, I can't, I can't do that. And I know of moms who they're at brunch and they see some girls having mimosas. And instead they're with their kids opening up yogurt pouches, you know, with all that. And I've found, found your words such a piece to me of knowing, that's not my season. Like I can, maybe it'll be there again, but right now that's, that's not my season. And I would love if you would just give a little bit of insight on that, that concept for the listeners.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  I think you put it, I, I don't want that. I don't want to be disconnected from my kids.

• 33:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  And back to, it's, it's not true, but there's truth to the phrase. And it's not true. So don't, don't get injured by this, if the places it doesn't apply. But a lot of times we get what we want. You know, we get what we desire the most. And if I desire my own interests and hobbies and fun over my desire for my kids.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  Um, that's what I mean, good, but you started with the right place. What do I want? You look at that tomorrow and what kind of tomorrow do I want to have? Well, I want to have, in your case, I want to have the high school years where they're learning to go out all this stuff, but they still want to come home.

• 34:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  And where that becomes a hub, where their friends want to come. I mean, that's, that's the key to teenage parenting.

• 34:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  When you become the place. And then after they're gone, I want them to be independent, but I want them to still stay connected to us too, without controlling. Now, look at that future. Well, me being gone and showing them that everything else in life is more important to me than them, you will get that in the future. And it's so important, you know, in the book I talk about different seasons have different activities. And in the spring, you sow.

• 34:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Which book is this?

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Necessary endings.

• 34:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  In the spring, you've got, you can't demand harvest.

• 34:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  How many late nights have you taken an airplane to get home from speaking somewhere so you'd be there the next morning when your kids woke up?

• 34:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Yep.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  You're sowing. Don't expect a big reward today for that.

• 35:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  So we got to realize to build a good marriage, to build a good business, talk to any entrepreneur who started a company. When I started my hospital company, I didn't get a paycheck the first four years. There's a period of sowing and you got to accept that. And then there's, the summer comes after you sow, this plant's starting to emerge. You're going to have to be devoted to managing the growth to where it turns into what you want it to turn into. And the harvest is going to come later. And then at some point, what you're engaged in, that may come to an end.

• 35:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  And there's a winter. And the activity of the winter, you see this in empty nesters, that season of parenting is over. You gotta take the time. What do farmers do in the winter? They get their equipment, they clean it up, they get it in working order, and they figure out, what do I want to plant next spring? So you gotta figure out what season you're in and define the activities that are, that are appropriate for that season to get what you want in harvest time.

• 36:05Jefferson Fisher?

  You, you had made the comment of, of your own realization of, I couldn't be a good, I couldn't be a golfer and a good dad at the same time.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I grew up playing competitive golf and time my kids were born, I was back playing. I had an injury in college and had to quit. But, but then I was playing again and I was playing a lot of pretty high level amateur tournaments. And for golfers out there, it's a plus three handicap.

• 36:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, that's really good.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  But to maintain that, I really had to work on it. And, and I got married later. I was in my thirties when I got married. And at that point, I mean, it's time to have kids. I realized I can't be a plus three handicap and a good dad. There's just no way. So I'm not telling everybody you gotta do this, but the level I wanted to play at. So I quit for 17 years.

• 37:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Just quit golf for 17 years?

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now, I could have played then, people play golf to have kids, but I couldn't play at the level that I would love it. And I don't like it when I'm out there hacking it.

• 37:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  And I really want, I just want, I wanted to be a dad.

• 37:28Jefferson Fisher?

  I think that it, it spoke to me. I wanted to make sure that you knew, that really spoke to me and gave me a lot of comfort. Uh, because it is very easy to get jaded and jealous, even.

• 37:41Jefferson Fisher?

  I love my kids. I can stare at my kids and weep, you know, just, just tears in your eyes looking at them. At the same time, I can look at other friends that, you know, they were out in another state hunting and I can get jealous.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Of course. Well, it's a desire. It's everyone with that.

• 37:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  After you got married, you still noticed attractive women, right?

• 38:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. And so it's like, how do you, how do you, but you got kids, right? And so I, that just gave me a lot of peace of this, this, the mantra. I, I've said to myself several times over the last two months since I first saw you speak and it was that this, that's not my season. This is not my season. And every time it just makes my shoulders drop of like, no, that's not my season. And I think that applies so much to also business and, and where you are in life, even as a couple of what, as a couple, what season are you in? Are you planting? Are you growing? Are you harvesting and what are you doing? I want to make sure that I, I talk about your new book, Your Desire Future, Five Essential

• 38:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Steps That Take You Where You Want To Go. I know this is, you said like your 50th something book. Just, I mean, I feel like you just spit out wisdom and I, like you just drop it out of your pocket constantly. So I'm all for it. We're going to make sure that we put the links down in the show notes, but I know from this book, you bring out these five essential steps that talk about having like a very defined future of where you, where you want to do.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:14Jefferson Fisher?

  And not just defined, but you said compelling. I remember you used the word compelling of like what that means.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Is it enough to get you out of bed?

• 39:21Jefferson Fisher?

  That's a great one. Is it enough to get you up and excited out of bed?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  I mean, it's in rocket science either. I mean,

• 39:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  I'm kind of hungry, but I'm watching the Masters on TV and am I hungry enough to go actually make a sandwich? No, I'm gonna wait till the next. And sometimes you gotta, you know.

• 39:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, sometimes you gotta eat.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  What do you want?

• 39:42Jefferson Fisher?

  That's right.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  But here's the thing, motivation won't get you there.

• 39:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  And that's what a lot, you'll hear a lot of people say, well, if he wanted it bad enough, he would do it. That's not true. Motivation can be, research inversely correlated to achieving a goal because sometimes we want it so bad, but we're. We're not getting it. It's not working. All right. And making it. And then you get so depressed over that, it takes away everything. So we need motivation. But if we don't have the path by which things get accomplished in place, it's not, it's not gonna happen.

• 40:23Jefferson Fisher?

  This episode is sponsored by, you know it, Cozy Earth. In fact, I'm wearing Cozy Earth right now. This navy, wonderful, snugly cozy sweatshirt that I have multiple colors in because they feel that good. There's one thing I love about Cozy Earth is that everything I put on with them just feels awesome. And I can dress it up. I can dress it down. It usually has like if I'm wearing, depends what pants I have on admittedly, and if I'm just wearing, well, if I'm wearing sneakers or what I'm doing. But the top is always solid. So if you're like me, and you like, if you want to look good, even in casual, going to run to the grocery store, or you're wanting to go

• 41:06Jefferson Fisher?

  pick up your kids from school, or you want to be like me and be in a podcast episode, and you know, other people are gonna be filming you, you need to look at Cozy Earth, because their stuff's fantastic. CozyEarth.com/jefferson. Get up to 20% off at CozyEarth.com/jefferson. And now, let's keep going. I want to make sure that I, I give the listeners these steps, these five steps on your desired future, because I wanna, I wanna see if we can apply it to some stuff I got going on. So one is your vision, two, engaging talent, three, strategy, four, the plan, five, accountability. I know you have-

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Well, actually, strategy and plan is three. And then there's measurement accountability, or the fourth, and then fix and adapt.

• 41:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Fix and adapt is number five. Okay, let's take, let me, let's, I feel like I'm at a place in life where I'm still just trying to figure it out. And I go, okay, I want to know my desired future, Dr. Cloud. So, you know-

• 42:08Speaker 02

  We all do.

• 42:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, exactly. I want to know my desired future. So, the first thing you would tell me is, Jefferson, you want to make sure that you have a compelling plan or vision for your future. Now, I can tell you, I sometimes don't do that great at goal setting, or vision casting. My wife and I, Ciara and I, we were- I had a speaking engagement and we stayed an extra day and we're like, we're gonna do some goal vision casting. We weren't very good at it. We tried, we tried asking questions, but we found we were, we kept being really vague with things. It was really hard to have something concrete. So when you go a vision, how specific do you need to be with your vision?

• 42:49Speaker 02

  The brain, the human brain hates ambiguity and it loves clarity.

• 42:56Jefferson Fisher?

  All right.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Now, I say that for a reason because the, where I got the model of the book was, you know, there's all this performance literature out there, but it's so much, where do you start? And I thought, wouldn't it be helpful to have a little GPS where somebody wake up every day and just ask the question, am I doing these things? Okay?

• 43:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  And I decided to use as the model, the most incredible performance machine that's ever been created, and it's the human body. There's nothing like it. AI, they're trying to imitate what we do.

• 43:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  So what happens? Your prefrontal cortex, we're the only species that can do this. My dog just runs and does what she, she's gonna bark to protect the, like she's wired, but she never stops and says, I wonder if that was helpful. Is that gonna get me where I wanna be next Thursday?

• 43:47Jefferson Fisher?

  How loud is that bark? That was a little too loud.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. We have the capacity to stop and say, here's where I am. Where do I wanna really be next Thursday? And what do I need to do to get there? Okay, so when your brain does that, and you get clarity on that, it's unbelievable, the neurobiology that starts and then, and the, it pulls networks of everything associated that and memories and, and all of that. And it's really already beginning based on the clarity of what you want. This is why the research always shows people write down their goals, 70, 80% more likely to achieve them. But that just starts the process. Now, okay, brain, go there. If I'm going

• 44:34Speaker 02

  over there, brain, go there.

• 44:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Your brain ain't going nowhere by itself, buddy. It starts to send out emails to engage the talent it's going to need to help it get there.

• 44:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  I'm gonna need a couple legs, I'm gonna need some eyes to focus on. So it gets the talent around the table and this you can hire it. It might be a friend, it might be an uncle that knows how to do it, it might be a support group, who knows? But you're not going by yourself for 10,000 reasons. We need to have the right talent around us. Okay, so now I got all my talent, okay. Well, all right, I'm gonna go, well, wait. How am I gonna get there? I'm gonna call an Uber, well, that doesn't really fit the market, right? That's not the best number three strategy. Your brain decides the best way to win, I'm gonna walk. In this context, that's my best strategy. Your brain actually, at that point, begins to write a plan that you're not even aware of.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  How many steps it's gonna take, every second, three feet, certain heading. While it's doing that, it has come up with a measurement and accountability system that as you start walking, it's looking at it like an autopilot and going, you know, you veer it off, you're gonna hit the wind, and it steers you back. Number five, it fixes and adapts. So, what are we talking about? You know where we're going, you better get the talent around you. You better know how you're gonna win, or you're gonna be trying every random thing in the world. Ah, I'll go to Instagram and see what... No, you got a strategy, you listen to Jefferson, if you want to communicate, that's your strategy. You gotta have a plan, you do it every day.

• 46:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  And you gotta have somebody hold you accountable, and if you miss a day, you gotta, you know, whatever.

• 46:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  But you gotta, if these ingredients aren't there, and here's the problem. None of us are naturally drawn to all five. Somebody might be great at imagining, in strategy.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  But what if you're conflict avoidant? How is accountability gonna work in there? You know, or what, go back to vision. What if you come from a background, let's say you didn't grow up in a house full of lawyers.

• 46:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  They valued education.

• 46:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  I work with a group in LA called First Star. They take foster kids. Almost 100% of foster kids don't graduate high school. Virtually none go to college. They get them in the ninth grade. And they start to take them once a month to UCLA for a weekend. And they start to train them in life skills and how to have an interview and how to do a budget and all this kind of stuff. 100% of their kids graduate high school and 90 something go to secondary education. Why? Because they have a strategy, they have a plan, they have a calendar, they're doing this stuff. But here's what the kids say when they ask them at the end, what did it for you? And I think it's 70%, put in the book, 70% of them say,

• 47:36Speaker 02

  "It was getting a vision that this was possible for me." A lot of people, Jefferson, they've been so wounded or lost so many times that even having a vision that a good relationship is possible for them or an education or a career, it just, it dies at the vision thing because of the internal voices that shut it down. And sometimes, this is gonna sound funny. Sometimes we need all five steps and the vision is to get a vision. So now my vision is to get a vision. Like you said, how did my wife know?

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Well, what I would do, if your wife and I wanted to get a vision, I would engage the talent to help you get a vision. Bring in a good facilitator who does this with couples and helps them come up with the vision for their marriage. What do y'all want to do over 30 years? What do you want your family to accomplish when you look back? And you get that vision. And then, okay, if that's it, what talent do we need to bring to help you do that? And, and then what's the strategy? Well, the strategy might be, okay, We're gonna meet weekly with the, and you just,

• 48:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  It's just how it happens.

• 49:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Hit those five steps just to get the vision.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 49:03Jefferson Fisher?

  And, right, you might. And I think you made a good point too of the, that's why some people are, might be good at the vision and some much better at the strategy.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  They call them dreamers.

• 49:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, right. They just have really good ideas.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  When my office was in Beverly Hills and clients would fly in and,

• 49:22Speaker 02

  they'd always say, okay, but while I'm here, I wanna see an actor. You know, I wanna see an actor.

• 49:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, right.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  I go, I can get it to you, I'll see an actor. And they say, how? I say, well, we're in Beverly Hills. I mean, I promise you, go to lunch, you'll see an actor. But what I knew that they didn't was, every waiter in Beverly Hills is an actor.

• 49:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  You will meet an actor today. Now, sometimes you're gonna see some real ones, but, but the point being, I would, you know, if you talk to, talk to these servers and they say, you know, I'm an actor, and then you say, well, what do you, what have I seen that you've been in? And sometimes, you know, well, I just got here, I've been here a year, and still working on it, and that's great. You gotta do that in the beginning. But sometimes you were here, well, I'm a screenwriter, I'm an actor.

• 50:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  And I say, what have I seen? And, you know, and they say, well, I'm working on, you know, I got this new project, it's always out there, something's gonna happen. And they're like 50 years old, and they've been there for 30 years. And, and no, it's probably not gonna happen. And if you had the video, you would see it's very different than the ones who actually have the talent around them to help them get better.

• 50:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  To get the auditions, get the skills, a strategy to do that. I mean, you think some of these guys like, you know, like Marky Mark and Matt Damon, and people like that, you look at their careers, it has been a strategic process. It's not luck.

• 50:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, it just doesn't just happen.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Every now and then somebody wins the lottery, but usually it's that path right there, these five ingredients are gonna be there.

• 50:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Reminds me of the, uh, The Piano Man by Billy Joel, of like the people that came into the dive bar and, you know, it could have been a movie star, you know, it could have been this, it could have been that, you know, just the, the dreamers and if only this would have happened, it would have been.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  The lyrics of that, though, you're so good.

• 51:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, so good.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  And so sad.

• 51:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  You know, the worst thing you can die with is potential.

• 51:16Jefferson Fisher?

  When you um, talk to somebody, this is, this is a selfish question. Sometimes I don't know what I want.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 51:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Like I really, I, I do, I sometimes I struggle with that because here, I'll, I'll make it personal. I never saw my life, anything like this, right here. I had no, no, I had no clue.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Where's the judge and jury?

• 51:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly. Yeah, there was no, this wasn't in the vision, you know, this wasn't in the vision. I had a very strategic vision of what I thought. Uh, my legal career was going to be to a T. And now I am in what feels like a dream world. And so I have a very difficult time when I talk to other friends who seem like they know what they're doing and they have big social followings and, and they go, well, what do you, well, it just depends what you want. What do you want? And I go, I, I didn't know I'd be even in the room. And so.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  Well, do you like what you're doing?

• 52:14Jefferson Fisher?

  I love what I do. I love, I never thought.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  You want what you're doing.

• 52:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I don't want to stop this. I mean, I, I do love that. I just, when they go, well, where do you want to go with it? Or, I think, I also talk to people I know in conversations that when I'll say, what do you want them to know? I guess maybe I'm taking my own advice here.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Can I interrupt for one second?

• 52:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  There is an underlying theme here, and this speaks to your heart. Okay. And it speaks to that question.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Many times in life, we find ourselves in different contexts, doing different things. But if you look underneath it, there's a theme to it that taps into your, what you love to do, what you're good at, and there's a need for it in the world. You had of those three things. I could love to do it, but if I suck at it, I'm not going to play for the Lakers. Or.

• 53:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  I could love something that's a great idea, but.

• 53:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, has the matchability.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  And the world didn't care. You're on the sell team, mate.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  When you are an attorney, one of the things you're doing is you're helping people clarify how to protect themselves and have the best property their life that they can have. And you're helping them structure that. And you did that in contracts and litigation.

• 53:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Now, what are you doing? You're helping people look at their lives and their hearts and their minds, and how to protect that and get the good things for them.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  It's the same thing.

• 53:59Jefferson Fisher?

  I never thought about that.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  And what you're gonna be doing, I don't know, you may find a different part of your heart that wants, but I would guess there's a part of you that you're, you're always going to be seeing what people need, helping them protect what is good and protect and helping them gain the skills to protect themselves from what's bad.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  It's gonna be fun to watch you and see where this emerges.

• 54:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, I appreciate that.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  I'm gonna be in the audience.

• 54:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, well, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be calling on you is the way I'm gonna be doing. Your desired future Dr. Henry Cloud, this is so good. I get, I mean, we already, I feel like I'm already proof. This, this session right here was proof that this book works. Like, I'm about to get somebody to help me get this vision underground.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 54:51Jefferson Fisher?

  This is wonderful. Thank you so much for

• 54:54Speaker 02

  It's been a pleasure.

• 54:54Jefferson Fisher?

  This has been one of my favorite conversations.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  Well, I told you when, when we met, I go, dude, I've been riding in the car with you for a long time.

• 55:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, so glad, so glad we've been able to ride together. And once I found out that you were able to come on, I was just so, so excited. So I look forward to staying in touch and really, really honored by the, the value that you share. I think you were really one of, to me, one of like the OG godfathers of this space before it became.

• 55:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Such a viral thing online, a social media, and took off. I mean, I think your your heart was in the right place already of helping so many with boundaries. And knowing what's worth repairing and what's not in businesses and how do you know? Because it all applies the same way. And so I think this is just incredible work. So your body of work is something that I, of the amount of people that ask me often, you know, who do you look up to? Who, who, who's the type that you, because this is kind of what, I would be honored to model myself after. You're definitely one of them. And so I really, really appreciate the time.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Kind of power you, I'd raise a bar, but that's.

• 56:03Jefferson Fisher?

  We're great. Thanks. I appreciate you coming on.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Great. Great to be here.

• 56:07Speaker 03

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