#2576 - Dr. Peter McCullough

Peter A. McCullough, MD, MPH, is a physician, author, and chief scientific officer of The Wellness Company. His most recent book is "Vaccines: Mythology, Ideology, and Reality," co-authored with John Leake.www.skyhorsepublishing.com/9781648211898/vaccineswww.twc.healthwww.thefocalpoints.comwww.youtube.com/@petermcculloughmdwww.petermcculloughmd.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at https://ziprecruiter.com/rogan Use code ROGAN at https://BlueChew.com to get 10% OFF + Free Overnight Shipping on your first order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Dr. Malone, good to see you, sir.

• 0:14Speaker 03

  Great to be back.

• 0:16Joe Rogan?

  You were the first guy that got me canceled, I think, about COVID.

• 0:20Speaker 03

  Is that true?

• 0:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's you, it's either you or Malone. One of you guys was the beginning of like all the like the White House and CNN and everything when they all came down on me. It was, it was your misinformation that all turned out to be true.

• 0:38Speaker 03

  I'm so sorry.

• 0:41Joe Rogan?

  Don't be sorry at all. It was great. Turned out well for me, but it was fascinating to watch. What, what has it been like for you these, we haven't seen each other in five years. What has it been like?

• 0:55Speaker 03

  Well, but you know, before I came on the first time, had anybody accused you of misinformation before that?

• 1:02Joe Rogan?

  No, not really. No, I don't believe so.

• 1:04Speaker 03

  Had the word even come up?

• 1:05Joe Rogan?

  No, I don't mean perhaps. I doubt it though, because we never really talked about anything serious. You know, it was the, the COVID crisis was like the first time I was ever really confronted with a very obvious psy-op. Like it was, it was very obvious that we were being fed some very filtered information. We were being gaslit and there was a narrative that you were being forced to push and I wasn't going with it. And when I experienced the pushback, I mean, like, like I said, from the fucking White House, like watching the White House Press Secretary saying that Spotify needs to do more to censor me and watching, I mean, Spotify got calls from the president, they got call,

• 1:48Joe Rogan?

  my, my management got calls from the White House. It was wild.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  You know, before 2020, before the pandemic, the word misinformation never appeared in the medical literature.

• 2:01Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:02Speaker 03

  Never. And in fact, by 2021, it's called a mesh term. Now it's an official term in the National Library of Medicine. There are scientific instruments that measure misinformation, that you can actually assess someone on a COVID-19 misinformation scale.

• 2:22Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:23Speaker 03

  So I looked into this and I said, where in the world did this come from? This, this word? And you can find it in the English language around 1500. And then I can tell you during Nazi Germany, it was Goebbels who's run the Office of Propaganda. Oh my Lord, what a useful word they found it as, a propaganda word. So if someone you didn't like, you could accuse them of spreading misinformation. So as soon as you make that accusation, you achieve moral superiority, that you hold information, the person you don't like is spreading misinformation.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  It became very powerful then, believe it or not, in 2018, it was word of the year in Webster's dictionary of, of all the words. It became such a powerful word. So it was ready to go and be weaponized in the pandemic. You and I just were on the, we were on the naivety side of things. We didn't see this coming and we went on and before you know it, that these were, this was flying around.

• 3:32Joe Rogan?

  I never would have imagined that talking about things that are facts would become such a problem. And then there's the reality that no one ever corrected all the things that they got wrong, whether it's Rachel Maddow, or all these different people on television, or even the White House itself. All these people that were saying things that turned out to absolutely be incorrect, there was never any, there was never any correction. There was never any.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Did anybody say they're sorry?

• 4:01Joe Rogan?

  No, no, nobody ever said they were sorry. No.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Not a single person?

• 4:06Joe Rogan?

  Not even people that I know that were wrong about it. Not even people that I know that were wrong about it that got vaccine injured.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  What other circumstance in human life, does it greatly impact people, large numbers of people? And in the end, no one apologizes for harm. Can you think of anything?

• 4:25Joe Rogan?

  No, not offhand.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  How about war?

• 4:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  Right? Oh, we went to war. No one ever says we made a mistake. No one ever said we're sorry. No one ever apologizes when it's a big time thing like war. And this pandemic, as it rolled out in many ways, it had the characteristics of war in the sense of we were invaded by a virus and the, the response was to behave like we were at war. And a lot of the, the statutes that we relied upon, the Bioshield Act and the PREP Act, what have you, you know, they used military terms, you know, there were countermeasures and they were, the public was at risk and the government was going to step in and going

• 5:15Speaker 03

  to take control. But whatever happened, all of these countermeasures were immune from a liability. So as if the pandemic was a war. Now maybe you're ready to go to war, looking at you, Joe, you're, you're so jacked, you could probably take on somebody. Look at me, I, I can't go to war, look at me. But what happened in this pandemic, which I thought was very, very interesting, is that we were told, listen, there's a war, a virus is coming, the government is providing countermeasures, but oh, wait a minute, you doctors, you're the ones, and the nurses, you're the ones that are going to have to do the fighting. The, the CDC doesn't treat any patients, HHS and the FDA doesn't treat any patients,

• 5:59Speaker 03

  you're going to have to treat the patients. So in a sense, you're a foot soldier in this war that we didn't ask for. That's where I found myself.

• 6:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for the first time in your career.

• 6:09Speaker 03

  For the first time in my career. I said, well, what am I going to do? Well, I have to make some decisions. It's not about shooting rifles, but I have to make medical decisions. And that's what I did. And I made the, what I thought was the best decisions I could make. And before you knew it, as you learned, I got in deep trouble.

• 6:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Is that the first time that you can recall where people were getting in trouble for correctly treating people that helped them? Cause by the use of hydroxychloroquine, by the use of ivermectin, they became so controversial that doctors were getting in trouble and losing their licenses for providing patients with medication that had not just efficacy, but there was, there was real studies that showed that especially Uttar Pradesh and India, there's studies that showed that people that use these medications were more protected and were safer.

• 7:08Speaker 03

  All over the world, Joe. This happened all over the world instantaneously. That was the most astounding thing to me, is that, wait a minute, how can the entire world agree on something all at once? And talk about people losing their license. There were thousands of doctors in France and Australia that literally just, it was almost immediate if they had tried to help somebody with COVID. And before you know it, you know, in, in early 2020, the Federal Trade Commission came out with the COVID misinformation policy. The Federal Trade Commission, what do they govern? Nutraceuticals and supplements.

• 7:51Speaker 03

  Before you know it, a great company in Salt Lake, Clear, Nate Jones, the CEO, Nate Jones gets a lawsuit from the Federal Trade Commission saying, you're being sued, you personally, Nate Jones and the Clear Corporation for studying your products, which are nasal sprays and gargles against SARS-CoV-2.

• 8:11Joe Rogan?

  Just studying?

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Just studying. He was putting the results on his website. That's all Nate was doing. This went on for four years. They tried to drain him dry on legal fees.

• 8:21Joe Rogan?

  What, what was the charges? If so, if they're suing him, what are they saying that he's doing incorrectly?

• 8:27Speaker 03

  It's violation of their policies, that in a sense, these policies were corrected, were erected. I faced the same thing with American Bar of Internal Medicine. I had no idea a policy was coming, but as soon as this policy is violated, now there's an opportunity for the government or whatever authority it is to inflict harm. A professional reprisal against him, in the case of the Federal Trade Commission, happened to Dr. Eric Nepudi, who's running a company, vitamin D. Eric had great data on vitamin D. It turns out vitamin D, there were seven clinical trials showing it actually helped prevent COVID-19. Those with higher vitamin D levels, they had lesser severity of illness.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  All the data were positive, no safety concerns. He gets nailed by the Federal Trade Commission and it just keeps going and going. So something happened and it was even worse for our colleagues overseas.

• 9:25Joe Rogan?

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• 11:33Joe Rogan?

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• 11:48Joe Rogan?

  What, what do you think was, how did it get uniformly adopted across the entire world? Like, what was done to get all these different countries to put all these different rules in line?

• 12:07Speaker 03

  All at once. You know, in my first book, I had to sit down and write a book. This, what happened, was so mind-blowing. And you're actually in the book, two of them.

• 12:18Joe Rogan?

  I'm in the book?

• 12:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. The first one is Courage to Face COVID-19. And the title, we come up with this term called the biopharmaceutical complex. And what do we mean by that? Somehow in the world, there was a formation of very powerful entities. And we believe at the core is the World Health Organization, the World Economic Forum, the Gates Foundation, the Rockefeller Trust, the Wellcome Trust, GAVI, SEPI, Unitaid, all regulatory agencies. We have the MHRA, the EMA, SAFRA, TGA, FDA, CDC, NIH. They just became aligned.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  And this was building over time. You know, these meetings that happen, a lot of these players are on the world stage. And when the WHO put out a white paper in 2019, it was called A World at Risk. And it had a diagram. These are all the pandemics that could happen. Sure enough, SARS-CoV-2 was one of them, or the SARS pandemic. One of the four principal players at the World at Risk? Anthony Fauci.

• 13:34Joe Rogan?

  Shocker.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  Jeremy Farrar, who was at the Wellcome Trust, who's now the lead scientist at the WHO. And I give credit to investigative author Lisa Myron in Toronto, who investigated this. So listen, the world doesn't agree on anything. Can't agree on currency, can't agree on policy, can't agree on anything. How can they completely agree on this pandemic response? She believes that the communications center is the WHO. You have about 190 countries. You have 140 national focal points, which are branches of the WHO. Ours is in Washington. It's called PAHO, Pan American Health Organization.

• 14:19Speaker 03

  And she believe all the commands really came out of the WHO through this, this complex. And, you know, it's interesting, people think, wow, the pharmaceutical companies drove it. Our belief is the pharmaceutical companies, they're just the suppliers. And the people who benefited was anybody in position for a pandemic. So it wasn't just vaccine companies, but how about companies that made testing? Or that made gowns and hazmat suits and rubber gloves? And the companies that did home delivery? And you can go on and on and on. So if you were positioned well, one could financially have an unbelievable heyday with pandemics.

• 15:01Speaker 03

  And one of the groups here is SEPI, Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness and Innovation. It was founded by Gates Foundation, a World Economic Forum, and a few companies. They poured money in, 2017. In their business plan, it says there will be a series of pandemics. A series of them. Oh, just one after another, like a storm's coming in. And in each pandemic, there will be a single response, mass vaccination. So everything is oriented towards tamping down anything else outside of vaccination.

• 15:35Joe Rogan?

  Does vaccination in other countries have the same protection from liability that they have in the United States?

• 15:42Speaker 03

  I don't know. I don't know. I know.

• 15:45Joe Rogan?

  That's a problem.

• 15:46Speaker 03

  Well, in 1986, that's when it was memorialized as the liability protection. You know, it became, what product can essentially be mandated for an entire population and be free of liability?

• 16:03Joe Rogan?

  Right. And then how can you take a product that's not a vaccine and call it a vaccine? Which is essentially a gene therapy. I mean, this is not, it's not a technical vaccine in terms of like how we have defined vaccines in the past.

• 16:17Speaker 03

  The connections here are extraordinary. So let's take Moderna as an example. So Stephan Banzel, have you had him on your show?

• 16:28Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 16:28Speaker 03

  You should invite him.

• 16:29Joe Rogan?

  I didn't know he existed. Who is he?

• 16:31Speaker 03

  He's the CEO of Moderna. He's a, he's a good-looking guy from Europe who's got a really intriguing accent.

• 16:40Joe Rogan?

  He's the CEO of Moderna? Does he have horns?

• 16:43Speaker 03

  Well, listen to this. He's a pharmaceutical representative, and he becomes a, becomes a distribution supervisor for one of the bigger companies, and he's in Belgium. In 2007, he gets, he gets a master's degree. He's well-trained in the United States and Europe as a business executive. He gets the job as CEO of Bio-Meuh. Bio-Meuh is a big lab company. They're like Abbott Diagnostics or Roche. They're a big company. 2007. So he's the CEO of a lab company in France. Well, guess what? That lab company in France, guess what one of their contracts is?

• 17:22Speaker 03

  One of their contracts is to help the Chinese build the biosecurity annex in Wuhan, China, at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Okay? This is beyond belief. So, and they train the Chinese staff. So Banzel is overseeing the company that's doing all this. Then in 2011, he leaves Bio-Meuh. As a young CEO, he's already done very, very well. He joins a tiny company in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Moderna. Moderna. And he's on record telling his wife, listen, there's probably less than a 5% chance this will ever be successful.

• 18:04Speaker 03

  Well, within a few years, they've got contracts to work on messenger RNA vaccines for different viruses. This keeps going and going. 2016, he's got a patent on part of the COVID virus. By 2019, he's communicating with Ralph Baric at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, saying, listen, can we actually use your viruses and, and challenge our vaccines? This is before the pandemic. Now we learned the NIH and Moderna, they co-own the patent to Moderna's vaccine. Trump announces that we have a national emergency. Five days later, Banzel says, well, we have a vaccine for that.

• 18:47Speaker 03

  This was all happening, nobody was watching.

• 18:52Joe Rogan?

  Do you have any suspicions that it was leaked on purpose?

• 18:55Speaker 03

  I think it came out by accident.

• 18:59Joe Rogan?

  So you think they were working on it, someone got sick, and it just got out?

• 19:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:04Joe Rogan?

  Just bad safety protocols?

• 19:06Speaker 03

  There are papers now written on this, and we featured it on our Substack focal points. Nicole Scher has, of these bio labs, there's leaks all the time. You can barely contain these things. They're very contagious. They're working with very contagious virus, bacteria, fungi, spores, different pathogens. They depend on meticulous ventilation, sterilization. You see these pictures of people wearing these moon suits.

• 19:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we actually went to the one in Galveston.

• 19:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:36Joe Rogan?

  My friend Duncan and I, we were filming Joe Rogan Questions Everything. It was a sci fi show that was on in the, like, 2012 or something. We went down there because we were, we did an episode on bio warfare. We talked to a guy from the former Soviet Union. They talked about the bio warfare program that Russia had. It was spooky. It was spooky being in that Galveston lab and these people walking around with these moon suits on with, you know, the vacuum hoses attached to them. It was very weird. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Hook up a better speaker to your TV and your home theater experience is immediately 10 times better. Or add a little extra treat to your dog's food. They get so happy at dinnertime.

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• 21:04Joe Rogan?

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• 21:10Speaker 03

  Well, listen, if people started getting really sick on Galveston Island, that'd be the first place that I would look.

• 21:17Joe Rogan?

  What about the wet lab?

• 21:18Speaker 03

  I wouldn't go to a fish lab.

• 21:19Joe Rogan?

  Wet market.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  I wouldn't go to a wet market. I wouldn't go down the street to a restaurant. I'd go right to that lab.

• 21:25Joe Rogan?

  That sounds racist, what you just said.

• 21:28Speaker 03

  Well, Joe, I gotta tell you what. Peter Daszak, who was leading the Eco Health Alliance, who was helping Barrick coordinate with the Chinese. This is astounding. He's involved in this. You have Anthony Fauci leading the NIAID, and this, the funding organization that's funding this research. Barrick is the mastermind at Chapel Hill. He knows more about coronaviruses than anybody. They get a lot of contracts to work on coronaviruses. They take the research to Wuhan. Peter Daszak is the go between. He's getting these grants to actually help coordinate what's going on in Wuhan. So when this thing gets out of the lab, this is astounding, and the World Health Organization

• 22:11Speaker 03

  says, we want to investigate the origins of the virus. We're going to send a team to Wuhan. They contact Brett Gerrard, a rare admiral. He went to medical school with me in Dallas. And Brett Gerrard was on Trump's White House Task Force One. Brett Gerrard says, great, I'll get three American scientists. We'll dispatch to Wuhan. We'll investigate. The WHO says, no, don't send us these independent people. We'll take Peter Daszak. The WHO says this. So Peter Daszak goes over to Wuhan. He goes, you know, he looks around, boy, I can't figure out where this virus came from, but I know one thing. It didn't come from the lab. Didn't come from any of his projects. I mean, this is ridiculous.

• 22:56Speaker 03

  This all happened under the watch of people. I had no idea this was going on.

• 23:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, it was just bizarre that more people didn't push back against it. And, you know, credit to Jon Stewart. Did you ever see that Jon Stewart segment?

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:10Joe Rogan?

  On Colbert?

• 23:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:11Joe Rogan?

  Where he was making fun of the fact that, like, maybe it came from the Wuhan coronavirus lab? And they're like, no, a pangolin got in the cloaca of a...

• 23:22Speaker 03

  Do you know that there were 12 papers written? It looks like Fauci commissioned the first one with Jeremy Farrar, who was at the Wellcome Trust at the time, and with Peter Daszak, whatever. And the first paper was written by Christian Andersen from Scripps. And it was written in Nature. And it says, "The Natural Origins of SARS-CoV-2." And says, you know, by looking at this, almost certainly it came out of nature. In Fauci's emails and texts, they all knew it came out of the lab. That was a cover up manuscript. And there were 12 more manuscripts published, to this day, that haven't been retracted, that say, well, it came out of the lab. In fact, Daszak is part of a manuscript that was published in British Medical Journal that

• 24:06Speaker 03

  says, how dare anyone say it comes out of the lab? We stand with the Chinese who are suffering from this right now. And the National Academy of Sciences and Engineering stands with the Chinese. It's amazing. This cover up was so big and so, you know, iron clad. These guys weren't going to give an inch.

• 24:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's just amazing how coordinated it was with all these different countries. And so many countries instituted these draconian measures. Australia was incredible. New Zealand was incredible. It was bizarre to watch everyone in lockstep. It was really weird.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  And things that could not have made sense. You know, in Australia, they got to one point, there was a five kilometer rule. Like, well, you couldn't go more than five kilometers from your house, like, as if the virus obeyed those boundaries. Or do you remember all the ridiculous things?

• 25:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  One time Laura Ingraham asked me to come on Fox. And, you know, I was always, you know, busy with patients and, you know, having to get over to the studio and have you, and I never know what they're going to show me. So he shows me this teenage girl, this sunny day, and she's somewhere in the Midwest, and she's running a 1,000 meter race, and she's winning, but they're making all the kids wear masks. And she's trying to, you know, get enough what's called minute ventilation. That's the amount of air you can move at the maximum of exercise through this mask. And she can't do it. And she collapses on the track. She destroys her shoulder. They have her parents on, they're upset. And Laura Ingraham asked me, Dr. McCullough, is this reasonable? Is it reasonable to wear masks outside? I said, no, this has been studied.

• 25:46Speaker 03

  The virus diffuses into the air. You don't, you can't contract it outside. In fact, people in Singapore tried to study this. So people wearing masks outside. There was one, people were only wearing masks when they were in Olympic swimming pools, swimming, the mask was all... So the masks seem to come to symbolize a madness. Still, if you travel today, you'll still see people wearing masks.

• 26:08Joe Rogan?

  You'll see them in Austin. If you go to San Francisco, they're ubiquitous. They're all over the, it's a, I say it's like the Democrats' MAGA hat. It's, it symbolizes that you are an avowed leftist, that you are on board with all these different things. Do you know the story about the lesbian bar in Massachusetts?

• 26:28Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 26:28Joe Rogan?

  You don't? Okay. This is a great story. There was a lesbian bar in Massachusetts in 2026, recently. They're going under. All right, they tried to be communist, and they tried to have no cover charge for people that couldn't afford it. And so, of course, everyone said they couldn't afford it. They tried to do this, this thing where you just pay what you can. You know, they were trying to be like communist. Didn't work. And so they talked to a financial advisor, and one of the things that they had was a mask policy. They had a strict mask policy for this bar. And they said, why don't you have one night a week, like Saturday night where it's mask optional? And so they instituted this.

• 27:08Joe Rogan?

  And so the people that supported the bar, that were regulars of the bar, revolted, went crazy, threatened to firebomb the bar, threatened violence. It became a national news story. It became, it's so emblematic of like how insane some people got and continue to be that it became a destination where people wanted to go visit, just to see how fucking kooky it was.

• 27:35Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 27:35Joe Rogan?

  So it became a tourist destination. I think it's called The Last Ditch. Is that the name of the place?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's now closed because they're trying to find new owners.

• 27:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, crazy. So sad. It went under. Massachusetts lesbian bar makes frantic effort to find new owners after relaxing masking policy in 2026. Now, we knew in 2020 that masks didn't work. In fact, there was one doctor, we played it on the podcast, and we got in trouble for this, where there was one doctor who was explaining how vape, like nicotine vape, that the particles in the vapor are larger than COVID particles, than the COVID virus, and oxygen. And so, which is why you can actually breathe through the fucking mask, right? Duh. And so this guy puts on these masks, and he takes a hit of the vape and then blows it through the mask.

• 28:25Joe Rogan?

  And he shows you, it's like, these don't work. And, you know, we were like heavily criticized for showing that video, where people go like, you're showing, again, misinformation. And then the other term that I really love that they wheeled out, which was malinformation.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  Well, there you go. So now we got two out of the six.

• 28:42Joe Rogan?

  Do you know what malinformation is?

• 28:44Speaker 03

  Malinformation is information that would actually harm someone else, right?

• 28:48Joe Rogan?

  No, it's factual information that turns out to possibly cause harm.

• 28:54Speaker 03

  Okay, factual information.

• 28:55Joe Rogan?

  Factual. Telling the truth.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  And there's disinformation, which is somewhere of like not factual, but going to cause harm. So you have misinformation, disinformation, malinformation. There's two, there's three more. Anti-science. Oh, you've had Peter Hotez on.

• 29:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  He's made a whole lecture tour on that.

• 29:15Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  He went to my alma mater here at Baylor and he said, listen, this is the rise of anti-science. Now, now, listen, he holds science. So if you don't, if you're, if you don't agree with him, you must be anti-science. Again, that's that moral superiority.

• 29:31Joe Rogan?

  We remember Fauci actually saying that. Do you remember that statement?

• 29:34Speaker 03

  Science, right. So he embodies the science.

• 29:36Joe Rogan?

  If you disagree with Anthony Fauci, you disagree with science.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  So, so, so that's number four. Number five is anti-vaxxer. So, so that's like saying, well, you know, I'm anti-hypertensive medication, or I'm anti-lipid lowering medicine, or I'm anti-penicillin.

• 29:55Joe Rogan?

  I'm anti-aspirin.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is like ridiculous. Anti-vaxxer. So you're an anti-vaxxer. And then the last one is conspiracy theorist.

• 30:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, that one's a good one. That one's been around for a long time.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  Right. So that's a solid one. That's an intelligence community. So I was, I was part of a video. So this gal in Australia who was a dissident, she was a dissident voice. Oh, she was locked up actually at one point in time.

• 30:20Joe Rogan?

  She was jailed?

• 30:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, she put in jail. She, she made a video and I'm in it. And they say, oh, this guy is, is spreading misinformation. She said, no, they're not. He's actually, we're not, he's not a conspiracy theorist. He's a rational theorist, that we're all rational theorists. We're presented with something that's brand new, that no one can possibly know really what's going on. And so we all construct rational theories that are discussable. They're testable. So when people immediately, this is a brand new virus, and people immediately grasped for something. And this is, I think, a theme of what we learned in the pandemic is

• 31:03Speaker 03

  human beings have a terrible time with ambiguity. Ambiguity. Oh, no.

• 31:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 03

  It's a, listen, if it's a war, if it's a virus, there must be no ambiguity.

• 31:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  We have to know everything right now. And so I saw this in the prosecution of all these doctors. Well, they're outside the mainstream consensus. It's a brand new problem. Consensus of what?

• 31:29Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, especially with science, the idea that science exists with consensus is nuts. Like, the whole idea is that you're supposed to be testing these things. And it requires people questioning.

• 31:41Speaker 03

  Well, especially in the, what's called the inferential area of, of reasoning. This is very important. So deductive reasoning, let's take that. Deduction is the hard physical sciences, mathematics, physics, engineering. So, you know, there's laws. And if the laws are true, the roof will stay up above us. If the laws of physics work, the plane will take off today and what have you. Those, that's deduction. So deduction, there must be some truth to gravity. There must be some truth to velocity, what have you, because these, these equations work. We rely on them. In clinical medicine, it's very different.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  It's inference, meaning we never really know the truth. We never do. The human body is, is enormously complex. We can't ever really know. But we use inference. And inference, we try to inch closer and closer and closer to the truth. But we never know. And so because the clinical sciences are like that, we always have to question what people are saying, where there's always a debate. How many times have you opened up the paper that says, well, chocolate's good for you? Oh, here's another one. Chocolate's bad for you. Chocolate's good for you. It goes back and forth.

• 32:56Joe Rogan?

  Coffee.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  It goes back and forth. Coffee is good for you. Coffee, you know, it just keeps going. It goes back and forth as we approximate the truth.

• 33:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  And so this idea that there's a brand new virus, it comes out of China, and instantaneously, there's a consensus. And if you're outside the consensus, you are spreading misinformation. There's a policy erected. You're violating the policy. Now you're being prosecuted. People found their entire professional lives destroyed over this.

• 33:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, Dr. Robert Malone had a great phrase, that I think he got from someone else, called mass formation psychosis. And that this thing happens, everyone's terrified, and then they offer one solution. And this one solution must be adhered to by everyone. And there, again, can be no ambiguity.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  Right. So that, credit to Mathias Desmet. He's a

• 33:48Joe Rogan?

  Is that the guy?

• 33:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's, he's, he's a Belgian psychologist. And he's investigated this. And in fact, there's this mass formation. And people feel like they, they actually, you know, become divided over something like that. So the vaccine, for sure. Have you lost any friends over this vaccine?

• 34:12Joe Rogan?

  Not real friends. Yeah, not, you know, no one that I miss.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  But many have. Many of the listeners listening to this show will say, you know what?

• 34:20Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  After the pandemic, somehow, things are reordered in my life, that my friends are family.

• 34:26Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a good thing. I mean, I think those are the people that you really didn't want as friends in the first place.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  You know, in my field in medicine, we can talk about anything. So if I, if I, you know, and doctors love to talk shop. That's all we do, basically, because it's so interesting. So we, we had some social gathering, we're talking about back surgery, or talking about a new medical advance. We come up to vaccines.

• 34:52Speaker 03

  I can't talk about it.

• 34:53Joe Rogan?

  Right. Why is that?

• 34:54Speaker 03

  We get the Heisman. We think what's going on is that, we have this in my second book, it's become an ideology. It's not, it's not scientific.

• 35:06Joe Rogan?

  Right. I had Aaron Serian, you know, in Vaccines We Trust.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  He's on the right track.

• 35:11Joe Rogan?

  He's on the right path.

• 35:12Speaker 03

  He's on the right track.

• 35:13Joe Rogan?

  Religion.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  It's become a religion.

• 35:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  And it turns out in our book, we went all the way back three centuries to figure out where this came from. Where did this come from? How can this become religion? There's not a religion around antibiotics, or religion about surgeries, or religion about radiology. Why is there a religion around vaccines? Well, it turns out, there's, mankind has always had a susceptibility to contagious infectious diseases, probably more so, by the way, than other mammals. You know, you don't see groups of dogs getting colds and blowing snot, or squirrels out there. For some reason, we're vulnerable. So mankind has been vulnerable to infectious diseases. And so there's always been a fear. We didn't understand them.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  But when infectious diseases blew in, oh my Lord, like when the bubonic plague blew in, you know, thousand years ago, watch out. There's all kinds of bad things that happen. And you see all different types of human behavior when there's fear like this. You don't understand it. And so when this idea that maybe we can do something to prevent these horrible contagious diseases, and we had to start somewhere in our book. John Lee, who's the first author, is from Highland Park, Texas. A great, John's probably one of the world's greatest historians. We looked around to see where did this idea of giving a vaccine come from, inoculation?

• 36:41Speaker 03

  We had to start somewhere. And we started with Cotton Mather in 1721 in Boston. Do you have any idea who he was?

• 36:48Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  So Cotton Mather, in the late 17th century, turns out, he was one of the advisors to the judges in the Salem witchcraft trials. So Cotton Mather, he's a Puritan minister, but he clearly believed in witches. So Cotton Mather, this is horrible, and we start out in our first chapter in the book on this. Cotton Mather watches his wife and several kids die of what's probably measles. And he can't save them. He just, he just watches them die. And he's like, oh, my Lord, he's keeping his memoirs of all this. And then he hears a story that a ship is coming, and the men on the ship have smallpox. And, smallpox, very different rash than measles.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  And so he takes up with Dr. Boilstein in Boston with a new project. And Boilstein has this idea of called variolation. Variolation is taking a little, your little pustule, the little blister that you have with smallpox, taking a blade, a scalpel blade, opening that little blister, taking a little bit of the, the fluid, and then stabbing it into the next person. And the idea is, well, just give a little bit of that fluid. They thought it was actually a poison. They didn't think it was, they couldn't conceptualize of an infectious disease. It was thought to be some type of poison. But the idea is, we'll give you a little poison, and maybe if you can survive that, you'll survive a big amount of it. And they start up with variolation.

• 38:20Speaker 03

  And it turns out, Ben Franklin at the time, who's one of the bigger intellectuals, he's kind of, he's kind of ridiculing them. Saying, listen, these guys, these guys are nuts. This isn't, you know, they're wasting people's time and proclaiming all these things. And then sure enough, Ben Franklin loses little Frankie. Frankie dies of smallpox. Ben Franklin turns around, follow Cotton Mather. He's on the right track. Cotton Mather, at one point in time, declares in the public square, this process that we've come up with is a gift from God.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  That's how vaccination started. It was conceptualized as a gift from God to mankind. And then it just keeps going and going and going. And the bold claims, the bold claims. You think Fauci had some chutzpah? Louis Pasteur, holy smokes. That guy made more claims. Well, I've got a vaccine for foul cholera. I've got an anthrax vaccine. They'll say, well, great. Where's your notes? Does it work? I'll get back to you later on that. And this, this just keeps going and going. So all this hubris, all this fear, money. There's always been a ton of money at this. Edward Jenner picks up after Cotton Mathers in the UK. He's at the right hand of the king and queen.

• 39:39Speaker 03

  So these vaccinologists have money, power. The population is at fear. They're providing a solution that in a sense, man is outdoing God. Man, through vaccinology, is improving God's creation. This is the ultimate hubris. Man outdoes God. And that's how these vaccinologists present themselves. Remember Fauci? Fauci says, I am science. So that brings us to the coin on the front of the cover. This is 2022. This is a 20-year-old coin issued by the Vatican.

• 40:20Speaker 03

  It's a boy in the classic tripartite positioning about to receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ. But instead, he's receiving a vaccine. So the vaccine-

• 40:35Joe Rogan?

  This was issued by the Vatican?

• 40:36Speaker 03

  This was issued by the Vatican.

• 40:38Joe Rogan?

  A coin of someone getting vaccinated?

• 40:39Speaker 03

  Yes. This shows you, this iconography, I think, is confirmatory that what we're seeing is with vaccinology, there is a religious zeal. There's a madness here. And it's gone on for three centuries. And boy, it got turned on big time in the pandemic.

• 40:59Joe Rogan?

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• 43:04Joe Rogan?

  That same terminology, that a gift from God, that same terminology was used by Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York, talking about the vaccines.

• 43:12Speaker 03

  Really?

• 43:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was a quote by her. She said, these vaccines are a gift from God. Same terminology. Yeah. Was there any efficacy to those original smallpox vaccines where they would take the pustule and they would give it to people? Did that work at all?

• 43:32Speaker 03

  We can't possibly know. It took off. Before you know it, it became mandatory in a lot of places. And people were put in jail if they didn't take these shots in certain places around the world, Boston, Toronto, UK. It got to such a madness and controversy that in the UK, there was a city, Leicester in the UK, that said, we're not doing this. We're not taking these vaccines. This is nuts. We can't, you know, they're taking fluid from other people. They're taking fluid from horses and animals. You can't know what's in it. You can't know if it's sterilized. There were examples of people taking the poke and then dying because maybe it was contaminated with tetanus or staph or syphilis. And in Leicester, they said, we're not doing it. We're going to do the Leicester method.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  We think how this is happening is the kids are sleeping on top of each other in straw beds covered in these pustules. When the kids get smallpox, we're going to separate them. We're going to separate them and see if we can't stop it from spreading around. And they were right. So the Leicester method basically got control of smallpox with no vaccines. It's very important.

• 44:38Joe Rogan?

  What percentage of people that smallpox that got infected died?

• 44:42Speaker 03

  I don't know, but it was high. It was high because, you know, the, once you got covered in these pustules, it didn't take much for it to be super infected with staph. And then, once the staph took off, remember back in the olden days, there was a term called erysipillis. That was just a bad skin staph infection. That would be fatal. And all of these infectious diseases, this is really important. You've had Suzanne Humphries on, you've had Aaron Seary. All of these infectious diseases came under control before widespread vaccination. This is very important.

• 45:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 45:15Speaker 03

  Through better nutrition, sanitation was big and personal hygiene.

• 45:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 45:21Speaker 03

  This was very big. So we don't have erysipillis outbreaks. There's no vaccine for that. That's just like a staph. You know, streptococcal, my family was greatly affected. I'm Irish, greatly affected by streptococcal through the Irish as they immigrated to the United States. My great-grandmother died of Bright's disease at age 32. That's post-streptococcal kidney failure. My grandfather, who I never met, he died of rheumatic heart disease against streptococcal. I never see patients dying of streptococcal disease now, ever. Pharyngitis, chlamydia, laryngitis, carditis, never. Because we have antibiotics and we have appropriate testing. No vaccine.

• 46:05Speaker 03

  This is very important. Decades ago, we had tuberculosis sanatoriums in the United States. There's no effective vaccine for TB. So if you go to the 63 schools of public health in the United States and you read through their, you know, their mission statements, they'll tell you that vaccination was one of the greatest public health achievements in the history of mankind. They almost never mention sanitation or improved hygiene or testing.

• 46:32Joe Rogan?

  So you think those are the primary factors?

• 46:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:35Joe Rogan?

  And what about nutrition? Nutrition is a big factor, particularly when you're dealing with cities in the winter where they don't have access to fresh vegetables.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 46:45Joe Rogan?

  And they don't, they're very poorly fed.

• 46:49Speaker 03

  I mean, a great example is measles fatalities. I mean, it's tightly linked to vitamin A deficiency. In fact, vitamin A is so critical that there's a vitamin A protocol. So there was a prospective, double-blind, randomized placebo-controlled trial of giving vitamin A to critical kids with measles pneumonitis in the New England Journal of Medicine, and it reduced mortality. That's just an example of a nutritional intervention that reduced mortality. So in the modern day, I've said, there's a great hullabaloo about measles right now. I've said in the modern day, we shouldn't lose anybody due to measles. No one. Because we have, we have modern nutrition, sanitation, hygiene. We can handle complications.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  So the measles encephalitis and pneumonia is very responsive to steroids. The bronchitis, pneumonia is all bacterial. We handle that with antibiotics.

• 47:43Joe Rogan?

  Aaron Seary was also discussing how it seems that prior measles infection protects you from some other things?

• 47:51Speaker 03

  You know, it may, it may. You know, natural infection and recovery always seems to be far more durable and broadly applicable. And a good paper to quote is Bianchi and colleagues, where it was a perfect time at an Italian medical school where they had, half the kids had kind of natural measles immunity because, you know, they grew up before there was availability of a measles vaccine and the other kids had measles vaccine immunity. And they tested them serologically to see if they have any protection. The answer was if you had natural measles infection, 96% protection. You could get it again, maybe. But boy, natural measles, you're good.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  Our CDC says today measles was so common that if you were born before 1957 in the United States, you're good. You're just, we just assume you're completely immune. The kids who took the measles vaccine, that would be me, I took a measles vaccine, only 80% had any measurable protection. And I've gone through this now four times. I took measles vaccine as a kid. When I went to medical school, checked the blood test, no protection, take another shot, became a resident a few years later, took another test, no protection, became, took another shot, MMR shot, and then a fourth one. I went through it four times and I still don't have any protection. And in our book, we-

• 49:15Joe Rogan?

  And how is that measured? Is it by antibodies?

• 49:18Speaker 03

  By antibodies. It's a reasonable proxy. But in our book, we mentioned Ben Edwards. And Ben is here in Texas, Ben went to Baylor just after me, doctor, he's out in West Texas taking care of the Mennonites. Remember a couple of years ago, there was an outbreak? He's taking care of the Mennonites and he's communicating with us. And actually, I talked to some of the Mennonites myself. And Ben says, listen, I took all these measles shots. He goes, I'm not sure I had any, I have any protection. Sure enough, he sent me a picture. He's covered head to toe with measles. He's taken four measles vaccines. So the point is, the measles vaccines, while they have dropped case count terrific, they're not perfect. And our CDC is deceptive about measles reporting. Now, this is very important.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  When they categorize people, they're not going out and investigating each case. They're getting feeds from state labs, or even the commercial labs and other sources. And unless somebody really can somehow show their vaccine record and prove it to somebody, the CDC says they're unvaccinated or vaccine status unknown. It's a very dishonest way of epidemiologic reporting.

• 50:25Joe Rogan?

  So they say that, just to downplay the possible effect-

• 50:31Speaker 03

  The failure of a vaccine.

• 50:32Joe Rogan?

  The failure of the vaccine.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  Right. It's intentional and they do that as part of their reporting. And I've looked into it. Well, how do you determine if it's unknown? They said, well, if somehow the vaccine card isn't made apparent to us, you know, and this is through data systems and stuff, no one's going to be able to get a vaccine card through some data system.

• 50:50Joe Rogan?

  So they essentially assume someone's unvaccinated if they get measles.

• 50:53Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 50:54Joe Rogan?

  One of the least scientific aspects of the COVID pandemic was if you had had COVID, they still required you to get vaccinated.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  Now, that was interesting. Because in 2020, when they were doing the clinical trials, this is very important. So Moderna, Pfizer, Janssen, they said, listen, they're doing a clinical trial? Oh, no, we're not going to take anybody who's already had COVID. We're not going to take anybody who has any antibodies to COVID. We're not going to take women of childbearing potential or pregnant women. No, no, no, the vaccine either is not going to work or it's not going to be safe. We just want virgin cases. Okay, well, they do their clinical trials. December 10th, 2020, when it rolls out, they said, well, damn the torpedoes, everybody takes it. So wait a minute, just two months ago, you excluded people with natural immunity.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  Now, why do they suddenly need it? That's part of this madness about vaccines. And it goes, it goes even further. Now it says, listen, you can get COVID any number of times, it doesn't matter, take more boosters. Take a booster, get COVID, take another booster. And you know, I had patients in Dallas who were, you know, very much zealots over vaccines. They would go to the pharmacy and say, you know what? I'm feeling a little insecure. Can I get another shot? Can I just get an extra dose? Pharmacies would get them extra dose.

• 52:18Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that they were vaccinating the people that had prior infection because they wanted to get rid of the control group?

• 52:28Speaker 03

  I think there's a sense in this vaccine world. Part of this vaccine ideology is, you know, man outdoes God, but the vaccines aren't perfect. It's very important. So the vaccinologists will tell you, the vaccines aren't perfect. So in order for this to work, everyone must take them. Everyone, without exception. Without exception. Because it's for the betterment of humanity. It's for the greater good. And if some people are harmed, or somebody's already had the infection, and they can't possibly benefit, we don't care. Because this is for the greater good. And this has gone on for centuries now.

• 53:09Joe Rogan?

  But it literally makes no sense. Like, one of the things we found out very early on was that prior infection was up to seven times more effective of preventing a reinfection. So this is something that I brought up to Sanjay Gupta when he came on the podcast.

• 53:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, what'd he say?

• 53:24Joe Rogan?

  He said, you had COVID, are you going to get vaccinated now? And I said, why? I said, no, why would I? You know that prior infection is far better to prevent another COVID outbreak. Like, why?

• 53:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:41Joe Rogan?

  And he had no answer. It didn't make any sense. He knew it didn't make any sense, but it's a religious thing. Like, he wanted me- I had another friend of mine who's a vaccine kook, who, you know, he was like, now that you've had COVID, are you going to get vaccinated? And I go, why would I? I go, you know that prior infection is better at preventing getting it again. Like, I don't understand.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  If you get chickenpox, you don't go get a chickenpox vaccine.

• 54:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:09Speaker 03

  Right?

• 54:10Joe Rogan?

  It didn't make any sense, but it was this thing where you had to become a part of the team.

• 54:14Speaker 03

  Well, that's interesting, right? It's almost as if, it's almost as if there was a marking there. You know, have you seen on social, social media where people put their, their band-aid?

• 54:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:25Speaker 03

  Remember Jason Kelsey? No, Travis Kelsey. Travis.

• 54:29Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:30Speaker 03

  Travis puts the blue band-aid on.

• 54:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:33Speaker 03

  He's part of the team.

• 54:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, he also got paid.

• 54:36Speaker 03

  But, you know, this is the type of thing-

• 54:37Joe Rogan?

  He got paid.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  But there is a symbolism of being on a team.

• 54:41Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 54:42Speaker 03

  You take the vaccine, you take it for the greater good, damn the torpedoes. You know, there were three papers that I was quoting that showed if you previously had the infection, if you previously had the infection, you actually were harmed by taking those vaccines. There were more serious adverse events, things that landed you in the hospital. Because your body's immune system is already jazzed up, you don't need to juice it some more.

• 55:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:09Speaker 03

  So there's actually harm. That's the reason why the FDA and the company said, no, no, no. If you've previously had COVID, you shouldn't get this shot. And to just change in three months and just throw out all of that regulatory pathway, except a good clinical practice, I think the worst example is pregnancy. That's, the golden rule is we never use experimental new things on a pregnant woman. Never, never, never. And the clinical trials, there was no way that a pregnant woman was going to get one of these vaccines, or even of childbearing potential.

• 55:50Speaker 03

  Do you know in the first week of the vaccine campaign, I'll never forget, December 10th, 2020, 3,000 American women who were pregnant, they were largely nurses, took the vaccine. No one at the vaccine center said, wait a minute, we shouldn't do this. And before you know this, the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology said, you know what? Give it to them. Give it to them at any time during pregnancy. Without any rationale. It was complete malpractice.

• 56:21Joe Rogan?

  And what was the side effects of that?

• 56:25Speaker 03

  It was horrendous. Great credit to Jim Thorpe, he's on the chief medical board with me at the wellness company, obstetrician, called this out immediately and said, listen, this is madness. Tom Schumberu at the CDC puts out a paper in the New England Journal of Medicine, doing the math, it looked like the miscarriage rate in the first trimester could be as high as 84% of women losing their babies. Now, in reality, we can't really tell because they didn't have full nine months of data. A standard number is to lose a baby in the first trimester is 15% miscarriage rate. Finally, after all of this back and forth in the letters to the editor of New England

• 57:07Speaker 03

  Journal of Medicine, Schumberu and the CDC said, listen, we really can't tell you the real number. But whatever it is, it isn't good. We saw rates of miscarriage, and there's now Thorpe and others have published extensively on this, rates of miscarriage went up. Rates of stillbirth, which is losing the baby in the second trimester, that should be less than 1%. That happened to somebody in my church. This is horrible. The baby was fine, they take a shot and all of a sudden, the baby's not moving. That's it. Then the baby has to be extracted. And then, in the third trimester, what can happen is, there can be premature delivery. Now, the baby is premature, can have, you know, pre- neonatal ICU, all the complications of intracranial hemorrhage, premature lung disease, et cetera.

• 57:52Speaker 03

  It's a disaster to do something like this during pregnancy. And the rationale is, these vaccines are very strong. They cause a very high fever. And you cause a fever, that inflammation and reaction, the uterus and the baby don't like it. And, you know, fever is one of the single greatest triggers to lose the baby or have a premature delivery.

• 58:18Joe Rogan?

  And the vaccine gives you fevers?

• 58:21Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 58:23Joe Rogan?

  Boy, and they weren't operating on any data when they were recommending it to pregnant women and administering it to pregnant women.

• 58:31Speaker 03

  None.

• 58:32Joe Rogan?

  But yet, they were saying it's safe and effective for pregnant women, and they were encouraging pregnant women to take it because they said that the risk of getting COVID was far greater than the potential harm of getting vaccinated while pregnant.

• 58:47Speaker 03

  There was a paper by Pennellis and colleagues in also internal medicine that looked at that. What happened if pregnant women contracted COVID? Turns out, because they're young and healthy and robust and pregnancies and immune, you know, one of the strongest states of natural immunity, pregnant women did better than non-pregnant women.

• 59:11Joe Rogan?

  But what about fever?

• 59:12Speaker 03

  Honestly.

• 59:13Joe Rogan?

  Pregnant women getting fever while they had COVID?

• 59:15Speaker 03

  They could, again, that's a risk, that's a fair point. So COVID itself could be a risk factor for miscarriage, just like influenza or any other fever. It had to be managed. Turns out hydroxychloroquine was perfectly safe during pregnancy. There's actually been randomized trials of using that in lupus. I've used hydroxy in pregnant women. Ivermectin turned out to be safe. We had monoclonal antibodies, bamlivimab, safe during pregnancy.

• 59:41Joe Rogan?

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• 1:00:23Joe Rogan?

  Head over to bluechew.com for details and important safety information. Check it out. This ad and the products being advertised are intended for a United States audience. Monoclonal antibodies were very effective, but made incredibly difficult to get at one point in time. What was that about?

• 1:00:44Speaker 03

  There's a paper in Medical Economics, 2020, said Operation Warp Speed's going to deliver monoclonal antibodies. The US invested in doses for every single one of us. Every single one of us. These monoclonal antibodies, I used them hundreds of times, Joe. They were safe, they were effective, they were miraculous, they really worked. They should have been in every single nursing home. They should have been in every ER, every urgent care. Anybody really sick should have gotten a monoclonal antibody. Do you know of all the patients admitted to the hospital with COVID, only 15% of them got monoclonal antibodies?

• 1:01:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, there was, there was actually a policy at some hospitals where, once you were admitted to the hospital, they would no longer give you monoclonal antibodies.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  Right. And it happened, I was advising on two patients here in Texas, just south of Dallas. Husband and wife, he's a pastor, his dad's a pastor, I know him well. The husband and wife get really sick with COVID. They come to the emergency room. They give her monoclonal antibodies and say, you know, you're well enough, you go home, take care of your five kids. They look at him, he's a little heavier guy, they said, oh, you're too sick, we're admitting you. They don't give him monoclonal antibodies, and he dies. It can't be any more clear.

• 1:02:01Joe Rogan?

  What would be the reasoning to not give him monoclonal antibodies while he's sick?

• 1:02:06Speaker 03

  That reasoning was, well, that wasn't the way it was tested in clinical trials. It was only tested in outpatients. What, my viewpoint on this is that this is where clinical judgment comes in. And if I was running the show at the top, I would have made sure everyone got these monoclonal antibodies. And when my patients were anywhere close to the ER, I made sure that they got these monoclonal antibodies. I held them up in the ER. I said, listen, you're not going into the hospital until you get monoclonal antibodies. But it took that type of forceful clinical approach to make that happen. And the fact that people were denied monoclonal antibodies, which are emergency use authorized,

• 1:02:46Speaker 03

  fully FDA endorsed, expensive, Operation Warp Speed, that tells you something. That tells you something about what this pandemic was really about.

• 1:02:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, what I had heard was they wanted to, they wanted to limit the use of monoclonal antibodies because they felt that it contributed to vaccine hesitancy. And so, one of the things that happened during the pandemic was, when I had gone public with, I made this video and said that I got, what had happened was, I had some shows that I was doing with Dave Chappelle, and we had to cancel the shows. And I had to say, in this video, hey, I think it was Nashville or New Orleans, I had to say, hey, we have to cancel the show this weekend, I had COVID. This was when CNN turned my face green on television. I'm sure you saw that, right?

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Joe Rogan?

  I had said all the different things that I took, and I said, I feel great, I'm fine, but we have to cancel the shows, we'll reschedule them. And that's when I started getting attacked. But what, what happened was, I had gotten phone calls from everyone that I knew who knew anyone who got sick. What did you take? My aunt is sick, my uncle's sick. I sent nurses, private nurses, to, I don't even know how many people, I lost track of it. I just had an account, and I paid for all of it. I just had, sent nurses to people, people that I didn't even know. Actors that I never even met in person. They reached out to me on Instagram, I called them, we talked, I sent a nurse to them. I paid for all of it. I don't know how much I spent. I spent a lot of money on it. I just sent, I was like, look, I'm going to save these people's lives.

• 1:04:26Joe Rogan?

  And one of the things that we administered to them was monoclonal antibodies. And I did it to a lot of fucking people, man, a lot of people, all over the country, comics, all these different people.

• 1:04:36Speaker 03

  You remind me of this gal I met on social media and Instagram. Her name is Nurse Michelle. You should check her out. She's middle-aged, got like a bunch of kids, and she's just a good lady in rural North Georgia. She saw this happening. She said, this is so horrible, I don't care about the law, I don't care about the rules. She stocked up her minivan with every drug she could possibly get a hold of from overseas, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, antibiotics, steroids. She reached out to me, I had published the McCullough Protocol in the American Journal of Medicine. She goes, I'll follow your protocol, Dr. McCullough. She went around Georgia just treating patients. She didn't have a medical license. She just did it. She goes, I don't care.

• 1:05:20Speaker 03

  This is about saving lives. That's what people did. And I, I met people in South Africa doing that, in Southeast Asia. This, going back to the analogy we used, this was a war.

• 1:05:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what I was going to get to was, somewhere along this process, we couldn't get access to monoclonal antibodies anymore. So I was sending all these nurses out to administer IV vitamins, a bunch, a bunch of different things. And then it got really difficult to get monoclonal antibodies. And one of my friends in New York was really sick, and we had to get him monoclonal antibodies. And it was like, one of the last available doses of monoclonal antibodies we could get him. And we got it to him, and he got better. But it was like, really weird.

• 1:06:05Speaker 03

  And you know, there were six of these that were FDA emergency use authorized, and then one after another, they were taken off the market.

• 1:06:12Joe Rogan?

  And this was all about vaccine hesitancy?

• 1:06:14Speaker 03

  Well, they were taken off the market, saying, well, the virus mutated, these probably won't work. Well, wait a minute. If the virus mutated and these probably won't work, then why are we still continuing with vaccines?

• 1:06:25Joe Rogan?

  The exact vaccine that was for the wild virus.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  So here's the point. This whole pandemic, my analysis is, this was about mass vaccination.

• 1:06:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  Treatment, and if you go through the warm-up exercises, so the SARS pandemic, that was Johns Hopkins, Bloomberg School of Public Health in 2017, where the hypothesis is, the virus is going to come out of Brazil, and again, there'll be controversy over treatment, but we're going to railroad vaccines. And then Event 201, which is October of 2019, New York City, again, Johns Hopkins, Bloomberg School of Public Health, there, the Chinese CDC is there, George Gao, he's paired up with Avril Haines, who becomes our Director of National Intelligence. Now, the virus, again, it's a coronavirus, but this time it's coming out of Southeast Asia, maybe the Philippines. Same story.

• 1:07:16Speaker 03

  We're going to have confusion over treatment, but the real answer is to railroad mass vaccination. So we're back to this biopharmaceutical complex, the vision of SEPI, which is one of the key players, that said, listen, no treatment, no treatment. Assume the virus is unassailable. Even if you find something that works, don't use it. Let's feature vaccines.

• 1:07:40Joe Rogan?

  And this probably has something to do with profit, and also the fact that they're immune to liability?

• 1:07:49Speaker 03

  It could be, it could be just this, this religion with vaccines, which goes back a long way. And it's a head-scratcher, because, believe me, these monoclonal antibodies, there was Lilly, Sanofi, there was a lot of money, there was thousands of dollars per dose. This was big money. In many ways, per unit, it was way bigger money than the vaccines. And they really worked. But there was something about the narrative, and what I call the false narrative. The false narrative was, this virus is unassailable, don't you dare try to treat it. And it turns out Operation Warp Speed gave a pretty, pretty good answer, which was the monoclonal antibodies.

• 1:08:32Speaker 03

  And, you know, for the first two years, in terms of at home, the only oral drugs we had, the first year, we used hydroxychloroquine, plus the other generics, second year, ivermectin. The third year, that's when Paxlovid comes in. Paxlovid, which is a combination drug by Pfizer. And it's not, it's not great, but it's not bad. And, you know, the large randomized trials, there was a reduction in hospitalization of death. And I had patients use it, it's a little slow to work, and there's some rebound and drug interactions. But even then, our government didn't feature this. This is, again, this is so curious. We've got this. Why is it not featured? Why is it still vaccine, vaccine, vaccine?

• 1:09:14Joe Rogan?

  And then also, why did they feature things that turned out to be very detrimental, like remdesivir?

• 1:09:22Joe Rogan?

  Didn't you know nurses, what they used to call it, run death is near?

• 1:09:27Speaker 03

  The WHO, November of 2020, comes out with a statement with the European Society of Critical Care. They look at this, they say, listen, don't use remdesivir. It doesn't work and it has toxicities. This is the WHO, backed by a very solid physician group. They put this out there. You know, a year and a half later, in Lancet, they revisit the original recommendations. Now they've got the WHO solidarity, they have all the trials, and they said, listen, we were right. Remdesivir still doesn't work. It's got kidney and liver toxicities. It should never have been used. What happens in the United States? We frontline remdesivir against the WHO.

• 1:10:07Joe Rogan?

  How did that happen?

• 1:10:08Speaker 03

  I have absolutely no idea. And when I ask my colleagues in the hospital, they give me blank stares.

• 1:10:16Joe Rogan?

  Because remdesivir was not formulated for COVID-19?

• 1:10:19Speaker 03

  No, it was a failed Ebola drug. And the WHO is strictly saying, do not use it. It's still on their website.

• 1:10:28Joe Rogan?

  And it had that side effect, the particular side effect, one of them was kidney failure that didn't exist with COVID-19 infection.

• 1:10:35Speaker 03

  No, there was a risk of acute kidney injury with severe illness, but this was additional toxicity. And, you know, I had several patients get it. So I had patients, you know, getting sick going in the hospital. I don't think I had a single, it was a five day series. I didn't have a single patient get through five days because it was so toxic to the liver. We would see the liver injury numbers skyrocket.

• 1:10:57Joe Rogan?

  So liver was the big one?

• 1:10:58Speaker 03

  Liver and kidney. The liver can rebound, the kidneys can't. So some people ended up on dialysis.

• 1:11:03Joe Rogan?

  So what I had heard was that one of the red flags was the high instances of kidney failure.

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:10Joe Rogan?

  And that this wasn't, it didn't match up with just COVID-19 infection, that it was much more rare? Is that what it was?

• 1:11:17Speaker 03

  No, it's a correct analysis. That's a correct analysis. These people were very sick. But the fact that you had Health and Human Services go directly against the WHO, and you know, a lot of other countries didn't even use it.

• 1:11:29Joe Rogan?

  So who recommended remdesivir?

• 1:11:32Speaker 03

  Well, HHS at that time was Alex Azar. That was under Trump 1.0. Then, under Biden, we had Javier Becerra. And we had Robert Califf, who was the FDA chair. Why didn't they relook at this? Why didn't they have a meeting with the WHO? None of this can be explained.

• 1:11:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the remdesivir one was very disturbing because a doctor that I talked to said, under no circumstances, allow anyone that you know to take that stuff. And I was like, well, what is it? Like, it was very weird to have someone say that. And they said, I don't understand why people are prescribing this for COVID-19 infection. Not only does it not seem to be effective, but it seems to be deadly.

• 1:12:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:12:20Joe Rogan?

  Which is like, how is that possible that that got through?

• 1:12:24Speaker 03

  And listen, at that time, there was a critical study published in one of the best journals for pulmonary medicine called CHEST. The first author is Roche, from Florida. It's called the ICON Study. And there was a group that got ivermectin in the ER and continued during the hospitalization, and a group who didn't. So it's a very good, it wasn't a randomized trial, but it's a very good, you know, in the heat of the pandemic, you're in Florida, lots of senior citizens getting sick. Ivermectin has over a 50% reduction in mortality, very safe. It was, it had matched, case matched, all the, you know, all the ways they can control to make the two groups basically be comparable. Ivermectin, hands

• 1:13:09Speaker 03

  down, saved lives. And when that trial came in, I said, that's it. Every single person should not only be getting monoclonal antibodies, but if they get admitted to the hospital, they should be getting ivermectin. And before you knew it, we started seeing the emails come out, don't give ivermectin, don't treat ivermectin, treat anybody with ivermectin. And Pierre Corry, who you've had on your show, ultimately published, I think, the best named book in the entire pandemic. It was called The War on Ivermectin. Our regulatory agencies launched a war on ivermectin. Matter of fact, the AMA in 2021 came out with an official policy. This is, this is a trade group for doctors, American Medical Association.

• 1:13:50Speaker 03

  It says, our objective in this campaign is to abolish the use of ivermectin.

• 1:13:57Joe Rogan?

  Something that has a 50% effective rate of stopping hospitalization and death.

• 1:14:03Speaker 03

  And it was the most rapid acting drug. So we saw patients, we ultimately published on this, Sabine Hazen in Malibu gets great credit, Dr. Etherios Goukouakas down in Rio Grande was in our team, Tom Barodi, who's passed away from Australia. We had a greater national team. We showed that ivermectin can actually recover oxygen levels in people sick at home, people with low oxygen levels. We had patients in South Africa, United States, I had some of my patients, I had a couple that their oxygen saturations were so deeply low, they said, listen, if we go to the hospital, they're going to put us on the ventilator. We're going to die. We're not going to come back from that. And they were right. The

• 1:14:48Speaker 03

  early ventilator mortality rates were through the roof. And so we let their oxygen saturations go down. A normal oxygen saturation, right now, you should be over 94%. The hospitals started getting worried when we saw below 90% or 88%, what have you. They started putting people on the ventilator, typically in the 80s. I had these people at home, and they had home oxygen. You know, then COVID was a long illness. This was 2020, 2021, in the 70s, in the 70s. And they go to the kitchen, maybe get something to eat, and they go into the 60s. And I'd say, here are the rules. Can you manage the work of breathing? Can you, I know you're a little breathless, but have you ever been to Pike's Peak or

• 1:15:31Speaker 03

  been, you know, you're a little breathless, but you can manage, right? So this idea of can you manage the work of breathing, and can you think clearly? It's very important. So if there's mentation, and you can manage the work of breathing, we can, it's called permissive hypoxemia. Turns out, it was a brilliant strategy. And when we published these papers, and Etherios Goukouakas is the first author from UT Rio Grande, we realized, oh my God, all these people who were put on the ventilator, it wasn't needed. The vast majority, we could have just allowed the oxygen saturations to go down, provided we were using ivermectin in the multi-drug protocol.

• 1:16:07Joe Rogan?

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• 1:17:33Joe Rogan?

  first year with the promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE, or go to lifelock.com/jre for 30% off. Terms apply. So what this war on ivermectin, do you think that this was about vaccine hesitancy? This was about people found out that you could use ivermectin, and you know, there's that famous Rolling Stone article, which I'll never forgive them from. It was so disgusting. They showed a bunch of people waiting in line at a hospital, and they said that people were waiting in line for the emergency room with gunshot wounds because so many people were overdosing with veterinary medication, ivermectin. They were calling it veterinary

• 1:18:16Joe Rogan?

  medication, of course. I mean, they called it horse dewormer on CNN with me.

• 1:18:21Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 1:18:21Joe Rogan?

  Do you remember that article?

• 1:18:22Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 1:18:23Joe Rogan?

  It's a crazy article, because the people that are waiting in line, they're wearing winter coats. These people were waiting in line for the flu shot.

• 1:18:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:18:30Joe Rogan?

  It wasn't, it wasn't the same, it was July in Oklahoma, or August in Oklahoma.

• 1:18:35Speaker 03

  It's complete fraud. Do you know the FDA had out there, it's only a horse dewormer and all these things?

• 1:18:41Joe Rogan?

  You're not a horse.

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  So Paul Merrick, who's one of the best critical care doctors in the world, Dr. Apter from Arizona, Mary Taylor Bowden, who you've had on the show, they sue the FDA. They sue the FDA and say, listen, you're making false claims about ivermectin. The FDA gets lawyers. They start to, you know, engage. The lawyer said, okay, we'll take down all our false information. So the FDA, under Biden and Robert Califf, who is the commissioner of the FDA, had a false campaign on ivermectin to dissuade people from using it.

• 1:19:17Joe Rogan?

  What is the root of this? Like, what is the original person that says, go out and do this? So it has to be...

• 1:19:24Speaker 03

  Joe, it was in Australia, it was in Europe, it was in India, you know, they tried...

• 1:19:30Joe Rogan?

  Even in India, when it was effective.

• 1:19:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, they tried it. There was, there was a guy who came out from Emory, Indian doctor from Emory, said, listen, my mom just got revived with, with ivermectin. That guy got squashed in two seconds. All over the world, there was some type of incredible force to squash what I think was the most valuable drug out of all the drugs in the pandemic. I think, I put ivermectin number one, I put steroids number two, and, and down the line. We used about five or six drugs in combination. So we get to just this last hearing that Ron Johnson has. And one of the most spectacular witnesses is an attorney, Ralph Lorigo. I don't know if you saw this. So people started contacting him and saying, listen, my loved one's in the hospital. I think they could be saved with ivermectin. The doctors and

• 1:20:15Speaker 03

  hospitals are not allowing him to get ivermectin. I can't bring it into him. I want to, I want to get a court order to get him treated. So of 62 cases where he got the court order, and they actually got the ivermectin into the patient, they lived. Of the over 100 cases where they didn't get the court order, or they got the court order, and they still blocked the ivermectin, they all died. And what Lorigo said, listen, I'm a lawyer. This isn't a randomized trial, it's not, but these are the data. What I'm telling you is if we would have had ivermectin, monoclonal antibodies, my color protocol, which involved nasal sprays, gargles, all the vitamins, secondary antibiotics, aspirin, colchicine, anti-thrombotics.

• 1:21:00Speaker 03

  My color protocol, as I published it in the American Journal of Medicine, was more extensive than what people got in the hospital. I've testified under oath that 85% of these deaths could have been avoided.

• 1:21:11Joe Rogan?

  How is that possible in 2020, 2021, with the internet, with all the available information, with people being able to speak freely? How is it possible that they suppress this information to such an extent that they suppress doctors using this on their patients? Supposedly, people that had been in their care. So probably a lot of people that they knew and loved and watched die. How is this possible?

• 1:21:42Speaker 03

  Censorship made it possible. The power of YouTube censorship and Google and Twitter and all of the social media, any one of us trying to, you know, we're making observations, we're finding things that work, and we're putting out these observations, we're crushed. And I tell you, it wasn't just social media. It was in the medical literature. So I'm thankful. You know, I published the most widely used protocol in the world. That probably saved tens of millions of lives, spared hundreds of millions of hospitalizations. The pandemic would have been a lot worse without my protocol published in American Journal of Medicine, which is, you know, right up there with the New England Journal of Medicine. But when I got these letters to the editor in,

• 1:22:27Speaker 03

  I got one from McGill. I got one from Manash in Australia. I got one from Brazil. They said, Dr. McCullough, you can't do this. You can't treat COVID patients. You don't have enough evidence. That's what Ashish Jha told me in the US Senate in November 19, 2020. And I was there with George Freed. George Freed was with, he was with Fauci at the NIH 50 years ago. George Freed said, I'm using hydroxychloroquine and other drugs in combination. I'm in California, there's tons of Hispanics. They're pretty poor baseline care, and I'm saving them. He treated 6,000 patients. Mary Telly Bowden treated thousands of patients in Houston. We're reporting what's working. I was told, listen, you can't do this. You don't have enough data.

• 1:23:11Speaker 03

  We'll only have enough data for the vaccines. That's what Ashish Jha said. And you know what? The next day, in the New York Times, he publishes an op-ed. Now, I'm senior to him by a mile in academic medicine. He has done nothing compared to me. And you know what he publishes? That I'm a snake oil salesman. I'm a snake oil salesman at the.

• 1:23:33Joe Rogan?

  Is that guy still working?

• 1:23:35Speaker 03

  I think he's back as being a dean somewhere in the Northeast.

• 1:23:38Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:23:39Speaker 03

  So we saw stuff like that happen. And in the medical literature, we began to see retractions now. Wait a minute, retraction. I've been an editor of major journals for decades. I've never retracted a paper. Because the submission and peer review process is so arduous and so intensive, some papers can take years to get published. But when they're published, they're considered valid. People may not like them. They can write letters to the editor. We can debate things. But what we saw is we saw papers retracted. So any paper that actually showed that therapeutics could work was threatened, potentially could be retracted. Any paper that saw any flaw with the vaccines, ooh, watch out.

• 1:24:23Speaker 03

  And so what we'd get, these notices that said, you know, we had a problem with reference 42 and 43. That's not a reason for retraction. You know, questioning administratively of reference. And yet, these administrative retractions started coming in from all over. And so now the medical literature became tainted and biased. And it's biased in only one direction. And it is favoring vaccines and disfavoring everything else.

• 1:24:54Joe Rogan?

  There's another thing I want to talk to you about when it comes to vaccination during a pandemic. Previous literature had pointed to discouraging vaccination during a pandemic because it encouraged variants.

• 1:25:10Speaker 03

  Gert van de Bosh, a virologist. He's actually a doctor of veterinary medicine. But he had put that statement out in a valid way that we should never vaccinate in a pandemic, never. Because when you get a viral infection, it's up there in the nose. You know, it's percolating, by the way, for about a week. You never know it's there. And then it drains back to the throat, the lymphatics. You get a sore throat, that's the first sign you think you have a virus. You've already had it up here for about seven days. It's percolating. You don't have a single viral strain. You probably have 1,000 different substrains. Just the virus replicates, it makes little mistakes. You introduce a vaccine. The vaccine has antibodies. The antibodies in the nose are called IGA.

• 1:25:55Speaker 03

  There's certain cells that can recognize the virus in the nose. They're keyed in on a certain strain. Well, the virus that's there that can escape this and thrive, it's going to thrive. That's an evolutionary principle. So of course, in a widely prevalent respiratory viral pandemic, vaccination is the worst strategy.

• 1:26:20Joe Rogan?

  Especially with a leaky vaccine, a vaccine that does not prevent infection.

• 1:26:24Speaker 03

  It's not sterilizing, right. See, it's not sterilizing, and it can't be sterilizing. If you had, because the vaccines were all coded for one part. Oh, and Joe, I have to give you a virus at this stage.

• 1:26:37Joe Rogan?

  You gotta give me a virus?

• 1:26:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:26:41Speaker 03

  I brought this all the way from Amazon.

• 1:26:45Joe Rogan?

  You gotta give me a virus from the Amazon?

• 1:26:47Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:26:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, amazon.com?

• 1:26:50Speaker 03

  I'm going to give you three of them. So here you go. So this is the example.

• 1:26:54Joe Rogan?

  Am I sick now?

• 1:26:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:55Joe Rogan?

  How's that work?

• 1:26:56Speaker 03

  So, listen, all these guys are all SARS-CoV-2, but they're a little different, okay?

• 1:27:01Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:27:01Speaker 03

  So the vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna, Janssen, and Novavax, they're only directed against the spike protein, which is this little spike on the surface. It turns out, there's like 30 other proteins inside the nucleocapsid. So all the virus has to do is change its spike protein a little bit, and it's free. See, it's very different than a sterilizing vaccine. A sterilizing vaccine would be comprehensive against many, many different proteins. Even if you changed a little bit, you could, the body's immune system could wipe it out.

• 1:27:34Joe Rogan?

  Can you give me an example of a sterilizing vaccine?

• 1:27:36Speaker 03

  You know, there's not good examples for viral vaccines. So for instance, influenza vaccines are not sterilizing. Pertussis vaccines are not sterilizing. It's hard to understand. Maybe some of the bacterial vaccines, I'd have to put some, I'd probably have to consult an expert on this, to tell you the truth. But the idea is for sure, going after the spike protein alone was a mistake. Because that's actually the most pleomorphic or mutational part of the whole virus. The envelope protein, the nucleocapsid, they don't change that much. But the virus would just say, listen, I'll just change the spike protein. And so there were papers by a Corsi, a Cherryan, and others

• 1:28:20Speaker 03

  that measured the viral load in the nose and mouth of the vaccinated and unvaccinated. And they were the same. This is in 2021. So vaccinated were going around with the virus, and they were equally as contagious. They were infecting other vaccinated people. And there was a paper from Houston, Farr and Hope, said an entire vaccinated wedding, and they all got COVID, they all taking the vaccine. So in August of 2021, Rochelle Lewinsky comes out. And this is a press release. So, listen, got a news release. The vaccines are not stopping transmission of the virus. She says it officially. What happens within a few months?

• 1:29:00Speaker 03

  All the employers in the Biden administration and the athletic teams say vaccine mandates. So they mandated the vaccines after the knowledge that they don't stop transmission. The only reason to ever mandate a vaccine would be that it was going to protect the workplace.

• 1:29:17Joe Rogan?

  One of the more egregious bits of propaganda was Rachel Maddow on TV saying, the virus stops with you. You remember that?

• 1:29:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:26Joe Rogan?

  If you get vaccinated, the virus stops with you. You can't infect anyone else. You can't get infected. We can get out of this. The virus stops with you.

• 1:29:36Speaker 03

  What made her, Joe, what made her so confident?

• 1:29:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, she's a lesbian.

• 1:29:43Joe Rogan?

  And you're a lesbian on television. You have incredible confidence. Also, she's wearing a nice suit. She's on television.

• 1:29:49Speaker 03

  She's got the longest neck. I don't know. It's like a giraffe.

• 1:29:52Joe Rogan?

  She's obviously very smart. That's why she's so confident.

• 1:29:55Speaker 03

  I think, I think that people, the people have a hard time with ambiguity.

• 1:30:05Joe Rogan?

  I don't think that. I think they were giving a mandate. She was, I think she was told to discuss it in that manner.

• 1:30:10Speaker 03

  But listen, you never said that. I never said that.

• 1:30:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, I certainly didn't. I got in trouble for not doing it.

• 1:30:16Speaker 03

  I know. When people ask me, listen, I'm a doctor. My, this thing was rolling out. My patients were asking me, Dr. McCullough, should I take a vaccine? My honest answer is, I don't know. I don't know if they work. I don't know if they're safe. So ambiguity, that's the important point. There was nobody in the public health apparatus that, that could even live with ambiguity for a second.

• 1:30:40Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever see the Facebook call with Mark Zuckerberg dealing with the entire stuff? Where he's like, there's a call where he's like, warning people about this. Where he's saying, we don't really know what's going to happen with this gene therapy.

• 1:30:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. This is like, early on. Well, by the way, do you remember during Trump's administration was when all this was discussed? And all of these people, including Kamala Harris, all these people were saying, are you going to trust a vaccine that Trump comes up with? I'm not going to trust it.

• 1:31:12Speaker 03

  I remember that.

• 1:31:13Joe Rogan?

  Do you remember that? Yeah.

• 1:31:14Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm not gonna take it.

• 1:31:15Joe Rogan?

  Boy, did that switch over when Biden became president. Then everybody trusted it.

• 1:31:18Speaker 03

  And then nobody called him on it.

• 1:31:19Joe Rogan?

  It's the exact same vaccine, but yet because Trump wasn't involved anymore, and it was Biden promoting it, everybody was gung ho for the same exact medication that they wouldn't trust because Trump was a part of it.

• 1:31:33Speaker 03

  Well, why would a medical problem get politicized? It affects both Democrats and Republicans.

• 1:31:38Joe Rogan?

  Everything's politicized in this stupid country.

• 1:31:40Speaker 03

  But this is the type of thing where you'd say, listen, they're not going to take a vaccine under Trump, but under Biden, it's the same vaccine they're going to take it.

• 1:31:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:48Speaker 03

  This is, this is this madness that we saw through the pandemic, but sadly, people were harmed. I'm on record, the US Senate, saying that 85% of these deaths, of COVID deaths, could have been spared with an intensive early treatment program at home, continued through the hospitalization, including monoclonal antibodies and ivermectin. And listen, when Paxlovid came in or molnupiravir, terrific. Believe it or not, we have a drug now that's approved for post-exposure prophylaxis in really sick patients called Zocova. I can prescribe it, and people can take it once they've been exposed to COVID. There's even a monoclonal antibody pair called Pemgarde. I can prescribe that and give it an infusion every three months if I had a really sick and frail person. People who, who had organ

• 1:32:32Speaker 03

  transplants and other serious diseases, they were more prone to death, not because of the virus, but because of their frailty. This is very important.

• 1:32:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:32:43Speaker 03

  Their frailty. It turns out, for the viral infection, we actually gave immunosuppressants. Steroids are immunosuppressants. So being immunosuppressed itself was not, I mean, I've had people with heart transplants who went through it. That's not the problem. It's the frailty. And you know, the opposite, when we got to people, look how big and strong you are, Joe. You get to people, there was a paper by Daniels and colleagues from the NCAA, and there was two papers in college athletics. Do you know by 2020, 30% of all college athletes and kids had already had COVID in 2020? By the time we get to 2022,

• 1:33:22Speaker 03

  70% had gotten COVID. And you know, among all those athletes, no serious cases, no hospitalizations and deaths.

• 1:33:30Joe Rogan?

  Right. Importantly, there was no data at all that showed that the vaccine stopped infection or stopped transmission. So when they were saying that so confidently on television, they were completely talking out of their ass.

• 1:33:44Speaker 03

  Well, you knew it. The, the original trials, remember, it was one month of the primary series, and they kind of cheated on that. So the primary series in the vaccine group, you weren't considered an infection. An infection didn't count until after two shots. But in the placebo, it did. See, that was, they, there was modify, intent to treat. That was actually cheating. You should count all the infections in both groups equally. There's an analysis by Michaels and colleagues that nailed this down. But in the clinical trials, there's one month of getting the shots, and there's two months of observation. So when Rachel Maddow says that, or anybody says that at month four, no one could have known. The trial was only two months after the primary series. So that's an example.

• 1:34:29Joe Rogan?

  So what instructed people? What, what was it about them that made them say it so confidently?

• 1:34:34Speaker 03

  It's a wishful, I think people are wishful that they take on this, this religious zeal around vaccines. And I've been looking for the memos. I'm a frequent contributor on Fox. I go on all the stations. I'm looking for the memo that says, listen, become a zealot over the vaccines. I never got any memo like that. And, and I saw it happen worldwide, by the way. So it's all over the world. I think there's an infectious, contagious group think around vaccines.

• 1:35:03Joe Rogan?

  Mass formation psychosis.

• 1:35:04Speaker 03

  Yes. And people, there's, there's a word about people who mimic their, other people's behaviors. They just, they hear something and they just kind of chime in. And it's called a mimesis. There was a mass mimesis, and people fell into this. And this is stunning that very few people could see it. Now, once you could see it, it seems like you could see it right away. I could see it right away.

• 1:35:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, I couldn't see it right away. I almost got vaccinated. You know, the UFC allocated a bunch of vaccines for all of their employees. We were doing shows during the pandemic in a place called the Apex Center. The Apex Center is a very small arena that the UFC has. And what they did was, they had shows where they would put on fights, but they COVID tested everyone, and all the staff, all the corner people, and all the fighters. And so you would show up. You, I got tested before I got on a plane. I landed, I went to Vegas, I got tested in Vegas, and then you had to isolate, and then you had to show up for the event. They told me, we have the COVID vaccine. Do you want to take

• 1:36:10Joe Rogan?

  it? And I said, sure. This is early. The UFC was the first organization.

• 1:36:16Speaker 03

  What month?

• 1:36:16Joe Rogan?

  I wish I could remember. I don't. But it was the Johnson and Johnson is what they had allocated. The one shot, you're done. I'm like, okay, give it to me. So I showed up on a Saturday, and I showed up for the event, and I said, hey, can you vaccinate me? I was going to get vaccinated before the fights. So I got there in the morning, and I was like, can you guys vaccinate me? And they said, yeah, we're going to get the, the doctor, we'll call you right back. And then they said, I talked to the doctor, he said, we can't do it here. Can you come to the clinic on Monday? I said, I can't come on Monday. I have to leave tomorrow, but I'll be back in two weeks for the next event. Can we do it then? They said, yes. Great. During that two, two weeks, two people I knew had strokes.

• 1:36:58Speaker 03

  After taking the shots?

• 1:36:59Joe Rogan?

  After taking the shots.

• 1:37:00Speaker 03

  That you knew personally?

• 1:37:01Joe Rogan?

  Yes. One that I didn't know personally, that, but a good friend of mine knew. And then one that I knew. And, and a bunch of people got really ill. And it was weird. And I said, hang on, what's going on here? And that's when I started to get a little hesitant. Because one of the guys was 50 years old and very healthy. And I was like, this is weird. It was weird. And I just started getting a little nervous. And I was never vaccine hesitant at all. In fact, there's been podcasts before where I was mocking people where, that were anti-vaccine. I thought that was ridiculous. Like, I, I had thought that all the science had been settled. Vaccines were the most important. I mean, I had a joke that I did in my, my last comedy special, before COVID, I thought vaccines were the

• 1:37:43Joe Rogan?

  most important invention in human history. After vaccines, or after COVID, rather, I was like, I don't think we went to the moon. Because I was like, I think there's so much horseshit, there's so much lies and so much propaganda. Like, this is, I don't believe anything anymore. Like, this is crazy. So I had gone through that, and then I said, okay, let me figure out what's going to happen. Then my family got sick. And my wife got sick, and my kids got sick, and I never got it. I had a couple of days where I felt a little weird in the gym. So I just worked out lightly. But I work out almost every day, and I have a very strict vitamin protocol. And I, I take vitamins every day. And I take

• 1:38:26Joe Rogan?

  a bunch. I take all, I take vitamin D, I take vitamin A, K2, D3.

• 1:38:33Speaker 03

  Bring it on.

• 1:38:33Joe Rogan?

  I take it all. And I'm very healthy. And I think it's part of that. And I'm, I'm a firm believer in supplementation. This is not just voodoo. It's just me talking to scientists, and me talking to doctors, and me talking to athletes in particular. And so I was hesitant about it then. And then I knew multiple people that had problems. Multiple people that had real problems. One of my friends had to get a pacemaker. He was in his 40s. Yeah. Another one that I knew started blacking out. He had to get a It was a friend of mine, a good friend of mine's brother, who was a dentist, he had to get a pacemaker. And he was in his 30s. Okay, it got really fucking weird. And I was like, what is going on here? Now, I had already known about certain side effects of pharmaceutical

• 1:39:18Joe Rogan?

  drugs that had been suppressed. You know, one of them was Vioxx, because I knew a guy who had a stroke, who was a UFC fighter, who was a real elite athlete, and he had, you know, knee problems and arthritis, and he took Vioxx, had a stroke. And I was like, what the fuck is going on? I was like, something weird is happening. And I knew that vaccine, or excuse me, pharmaceutical drug companies would put out medications that they knew were going to have potential deadly side effects. And Vioxx wound up killing somewhere around 50,000 Americans, right? So I started getting hesitant. But then when my family got it, and I didn't get it. And I slept with my wife, I slept in the bed with her,

• 1:39:59Joe Rogan?

  I hugged my kids. I didn't do shit. I didn't wear a mask. I'm like, I think I'll just get it and get it over with. But I didn't get it. I was like, this is weird. I thought this shit was just gonna get you like a ghost. It was gonna haunt you. And if you're around people that have COVID, you're fucked. But no, I didn't get it at all. And the only time I got it was a couple, like a year later or two, whatever it was, I was in Florida, and I had done a bunch of shows. I was doing arenas, right? So I was doing standup comedy in front of 16,000 people. Everyone's laughing, which is like the worst way, right? And my friend John, my friend John Showman, who was a guy who makes pool cues, shout

• 1:40:43Joe Rogan?

  out to John Showman, good buddy of mine, he and I met up to play pool. And we played pool till like 5 o'clock in the morning. I had a bunch of margaritas, had drinks. I was exhausted at the end of it. And then I started feeling terrible the next day. And that's when I got COVID. But it was just because I had destroyed my immune system by staying up till 5 o'clock in the morning, playing pool and drinking.

• 1:41:03Speaker 03

  Well, if you heard of germ versus terrain, right? So the idea is you probably had the virus many, many times in your nasopharynx. And your immune system is working, working, working. You just have enough of a wrinkle in it, then, or you get a big enough inoculum. That is, you know, you get enough of it at once. Now, interestingly-

• 1:41:23Joe Rogan?

  I think it was my immune system being-

• 1:41:24Speaker 03

  Right. You just get a little-

• 1:41:26Joe Rogan?

  It was me getting drinking. I think the drinking was the thing.

• 1:41:29Speaker 03

  So-

• 1:41:30Speaker 05

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• 1:42:00Joe Rogan?

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• 1:43:05Speaker 03

  The vaccine you were gonna take is Janssen. Janssen was an adenoviral vaccine, so it's not messenger RNA. So this is a replication incompetent adenovirus. It gives the genetic instructions temporarily for your body to make a massive amount of the spike protein.

• 1:43:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:22Speaker 03

  Massive.

• 1:43:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:24Speaker 03

  And the adenoviral vector itself is thrombogenic. And so, and by the way, Janssen and AstraZeneca are nearly the same. They were made by the same manufacturer, Emergent Biosolutions, out of Baltimore, a biodefense contractor. It's kind of interesting. Why is a biodefense contractor making a human vaccine for a pandemic? Anyhow, so you have AZ, and you have-

• 1:43:46Joe Rogan?

  Why is that?

• 1:43:46Speaker 03

  Janssen going. None of the companies make their own products. They subcontract to biodefense contractors.

• 1:43:53Joe Rogan?

  Oy.

• 1:43:55Speaker 03

  Moderna is made by a company called Resilience. Anyhow-

• 1:43:58Joe Rogan?

  Funded by the DOD.

• 1:43:59Speaker 03

  Back on the story. So the point is, this one was so thrombogenic, there's a disease named after it. It's called VITT, Vaccine-Induced Thrombotic Thrombocytopenia. So the platelet count goes down, massive blood clots form. Blood clots form actually in the brain, in the major sinuses in the brain. This is horrible. And when that happens, there's a 30% mortality rate. People have to have their skulls opened. There were huge blood clots forming in the legs, shooting to the lungs. It was so bad, that was AstraZeneca and Janssen, you know, we got to mid-pandemic, and court cases were coming up all over, and they both withdrew their vaccines. Pfizer and Moderna had the same blood clot problems, and they stuck with

• 1:44:45Speaker 03

  it. They should have all pulled off. And you avoided a nightmare, because that vaccine was a blood clot, you know, threat to anybody who took it. It's very important to understand that all of these vaccines have risks and benefits. The COVID vaccines, the equation is so stilted towards risk, and so minimal on theoretical benefit, it became the most obvious example of something really going wrong in a biopharmaceutical equation. And when I've pushed artificial intelligence, and I've said, listen, look at the major

• 1:45:27Speaker 03

  journals, Lancet, New England Journal of Medicine, British Medical Journal, New England Journal of Medicine, I've published in all of them. And I said, find a paper where the conclusion is that the risks outweigh the benefits. You can't find one. 100%, no matter what, say that the theoretical benefits outweigh the real risks. Now, you go elsewhere, you can find the papers. What does that tell you? There's editorial bias. They're not gonna allow a paper in one of these big journals that concludes this. And I can tell you, with anything else in medicine, there's balance. If you take a paper on statins, there'll

• 1:46:09Speaker 03

  be papers saying, well, you know, the risks outweigh the benefits here. Back surgery, there's always a balance. When it comes to these COVID vaccines, there's no balance. It's a 100% bias. And I think it comes from the originator. So these papers come from large academic institutions. They all mandated the vaccines. All the authors took the vaccines. They pushed the vaccines on their patients. Do you think a paper's gonna come out from Harvard, or Baylor, or Emory, or UCLA concluding that the vaccines, the risks outweigh the benefits? That paper is not even gonna be get out the door.

• 1:46:49Joe Rogan?

  That's terrifying, if it's true.

• 1:46:50Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 1:46:51Joe Rogan?

  But I know it's true.

• 1:46:52Speaker 03

  Because I was a division chief, I was a program director, I was a chief academic scientific officer. I had to sign off on these papers. If I was at an institution where there was a mandate, and a paper like that came, and I'm sure they're out there, there's no way they would get approved.

• 1:47:07Joe Rogan?

  Now, one of the things that's really disturbing is reports that people today, five years after they've been vaccinated, their bodies still producing spike proteins.

• 1:47:21Speaker 03

  We published the first, Holshering colleagues, we published this in the European Society of Medicine Medical Archives, Patient of Mine. He's worked for a pharmaceutical company, he's trying to do the right thing. In 2014, before the pandemic, he has a blood clot, which people can have, and he got treated for it. So we knew clinically he was at risk for blood clots. So he takes two Pfizers. What happens? He gets blood clots and they shoot to his lungs with two Pfizers and he develops myocarditis, proven by MRI. His employer says, listen, it's time for boosters, you gotta take a booster. He takes a booster, he has even more blood clots. He said, listen, this is nuts, I'm gonna die with these things.

• 1:48:05Speaker 03

  So he sees me, we engage in research, we do blood tests, skin biopsies, everything, and we do repeated samples. We use a lab in Germany, doing research, we find Pfizer intact and circulating in his blood, and the spike protein for three and a half years after the shot. How in the world can the vaccine be there? There's little pieces of code for it. And it has to do with a Nobel Prize winning advancement called pseudo-eurydination. And what happened is in the development of messenger RNA, which is a very long development history, it goes back to the 80s, there's a paper by Lallani and colleagues that outlines this. There's people have been working on this forever, because it's a wonderful way

• 1:48:50Speaker 03

  to make a peptide, by the way. Talk about making designer peptides. Messenger RNA would be a great way to make peptides, because that's what it does. So you take messenger RNA, and your body is making it right now, it's reading it, it's producing proteins, you're making proteins, you and I are making proteins, we're talking to each other. That messenger RNA is single use. Natural messenger RNA is dissolved by RNAases, ribodiocyanucleases. So it's single use, and you make more. So when synthetic messenger RNA came along, and you gave it to patients back in the 80s or 90s, the body would dissolve it, wouldn't do much. And then the idea, and Kariko and Weisman had this idea, there's four base

• 1:49:34Speaker 03

  pairs for RNA, adenine, guanine, thymosine, and uracil. Replace the uracil with a synthetic nucleoside analog called pseudo-eurydine. So what happened in the Pfizer and Moderna development program, and Kariko and Weisman had, you know, were gonna win the Nobel Prize for inventing this in 2022, and they got it, is they said, okay, let's replace 25% of the uracil, see if it lasts longer. Well, it lasted a little bit longer. Well, how about replace half of them? Lasted even longer. And they got down to the end, they had to make a decision, and they said, damn the torpedoes, replace all of them. And when

• 1:50:18Speaker 03

  they did that, they made a synthetic messenger RNA that appears to be nearly completely resistant to any human breakdown. It's synthetic. And so now there's a molecule in people's bodies that for some, they can't degrade it, they can't get rid of it. And one of these is my patient. Now, there's polymorphisms in our enzymatic clearance system. Some people have lost some function mutations in there, they're the ones who are probably accumulating messenger RNA. Other people are clearing this out just fine. But the scary proposition is there are people who have taken this vaccine, Pfizer, Moderna, it's still in their body,

• 1:51:01Speaker 03

  it's still producing spike protein, it's accumulating, and then sure enough, look what just happened to Chris Murphy, sure enough, four years after a shot, stroke.

• 1:51:12Joe Rogan?

  And people are still taking this?

• 1:51:20Speaker 03

  Very few.

• 1:51:21Joe Rogan?

  But enough that I've seen people post about it online, like openly bragging, or at least signaling that they're following the science?

• 1:51:34Speaker 03

  The CDC quit keeping track of who actually took boosters in 2023.

• 1:51:41Joe Rogan?

  Why?

• 1:51:45Speaker 03

  Almost certainly because of low uptake. And so what happened is they rely on what's called NIS, the National Immunization Survey, which is a robo-phone call. Talk about getting robo-phone calls, it's the election day, and they were pouring in last night. So a robo-call comes in and says, hey, we want to talk to you about taking vaccines, are you gonna take a COVID vaccine? And they ask you a bunch of questions, and it's only those people who answer it. So the CDC started in 2023, said, listen, we think 15% of people are taking boosters, from a robo-call, not from actual data. So last year, McCullough Foundation said, listen, and this foundation, I started to do research, since our organizations are not doing the research that we need, we said, listen, let's take the data from Pfizer, Moderna, the sales data, where they said they sold the vaccine units, what they

• 1:52:30Speaker 03

  charged for it, what the revenue was, what the wastage was, and we can figure out how many doses were delivered. Answer, last year, it was 8.9% of people took a booster, last year. This year, I think it's gonna be under 5%.

• 1:52:45Joe Rogan?

  That's still a lot.

• 1:52:47Speaker 03

  I know, but a government's, you know, contracting for billions of dollars.

• 1:52:51Joe Rogan?

  Right, but, which is horrifying. But if all the things that you're saying are true, and that the risk outweighs the reward, and that with many people, your body continues to produce spike protein years later, how in the world are they still prescribing this?

• 1:53:08Speaker 03

  I think there's some people who clear it out. Listen, my neighbor's somebody, he's taken every shot, to him, it's like an elixir. He is fine, and I have people in my family who find that. They have very high antibody levels to the spike protein, meaning the messenger RNA is chugging away at spike protein, but this is another part to the secret here. If you have the vaccine in you, and you're producing lots of spike protein, these little spikes, but the antibodies that are made to it are perfectly keyed to the spike protein, gonna neutralize it, neutralize it, neutralize it. It's a perfect system. Now, it may not prevent COVID, because a variant over here can just get around it,

• 1:53:51Speaker 03

  but you're gonna stop the vaccine spike protein being produced. If there's any wrinkle in that, and there's IgG1 and 2 neutralizes the spike protein, but IgG3 and 4, particularly 4, do not, if there's what's called IgG subclass switching, and we get to, you know, the immune system essentially gets tired of seeing this, and get to IgG4, then you have unopposed spike protein. Now we're in trouble. Because if there's unopposed spike protein, there's a paper by Yonkers and colleagues in circulation showing that's what damages the heart. So it explains why you can have one of these athletes, and he's going along fine, took some shots several years ago, and all of a sudden, boom, a cardiac arrest. That's

• 1:54:33Speaker 03

  called COVID vaccine subclinical myocarditis, and then a cardiac arrest. We've seen this in athlete after athlete after athlete. You know, when Damar Hamlin went down for the Buffalo Bills, you know, he's playing, God bless him, but when he went down, Fox called me. Tucker was, that was back when Tucker was on Fox. And they said, listen, you're a cardiologist, can you come on? And so I watched it, in fact, I had a friend there at the game, we were texting about what was going on. I said, sure, I'll go on. And the first thing that I was asked is, what do you think caused this cardiac arrest? And I said, well, the tackle is ruled out. This is very important. When there's trauma, is what we have, what's called the mechanism of injury. The mechanism of injury is your

• 1:55:15Speaker 03

  common sense assessment of, can this mechanism cause this event? So if you had a car wreck like this, and there was a broken neck, you'd say, no, the neck was not broken from the car wreck, right? The mechanism wasn't sufficient. When you have a football helmet, and there's a breastplate, there's no way that can precipitate a cardiac arrest. It's never happened in the history of pro football, ever. So I knew it wasn't the tackle, he had tackled him, he got up, he was about ready to clap or adjust his helmet, and then he collapsed. That's a vaccine cardiac arrest. He had a big surge of adrenaline, he had vaccine myocarditis, that's the perfect milieu for a cardiac arrest. He got very good resuscitation, he probably

• 1:55:59Speaker 03

  aspirated some Gatorade, because I was watching what was going on, so he had some of that in his lungs, gets to the hospital, has a perfect resuscitation, perfectly normal cardiac function, no heart failure, he passed all his tests. And in fact, I was watching that, and I said, you know what? If he got McCullough Protocol spike detoxification, which is my second contribution to what's going on here, and he can get rid of this spike protein, and he's critical drug treatment, what's a drug called Colchicine, which is very safe, but all the myocarditis patients need Colchicine, I said, I bet he can avoid getting a defibrillator. Virtually everybody has to get a defibrillator if they have a primary arrest, because this is a form of cardiac arrest that's treatable with spike detoxification, which is Natto

• 1:56:42Speaker 03

  kinase, bromelain, and curcumin, and natural products, plus Colchicine, super important. And we wrote the Buffalo Bills doctors, wrote the Buffalo Daily News, of course, they never write back, but I would lay odds that Damar Hamlin has gotten my protocol, he's never needed an ICD, and he's back playing. So this is very important, and I have many patients in my practice like this, they don't need ICDs. This is a very important message. If there's vaccine myocarditis and a cardiac arrest, if they're appropriately treated for the spike protein, and get this out of the heart, out of the system, they can be fine.

• 1:57:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, we saw a lot of athletes during the pandemic, drop.

• 1:57:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:57:22Joe Rogan?

  And it was really disturbing, particularly soccer players, who have some of the best cardio you've ever seen. Soccer is all about cardio, it's all about leg strength and cardio and coordination, obviously, but they're running constantly. If you ever watch a live professional soccer match, it's extraordinary. I mean, these guys are constantly sprinting. And it wasn't a common thing to see them drop, but we saw a lot of it during the pandemic.

• 1:57:46Speaker 03

  There was a panicus polycretus and myself published in European leagues, pro and semi-pro under age 35, we had all the data, tenfold increase in 2021, when they rolled out the vaccines, and they forced him to take it.

• 1:57:58Joe Rogan?

  Tenfold.

• 1:57:58Speaker 03

  Tenfold. And the best example is Christian Eriksen, Danish soccer player, he has a primary cardiac arrest, for sure. You know, everybody denies the vaccines, or the managers, they all took the vaccines. I'm gonna tell you right now, they did. And he actually gets a defibrillator, he gets a subcutaneous ICD. My fear is that he never got appropriately treated with spike detoxification and with Colchicine, and you know, about five years later, he just had a second arrest. And the defibrillator saved him. But check on your patients who needed pacemakers, I guarantee they had vaccine myocarditis, and I have patients like this too. None of my pacemaker patients now actually need the pacemaker.

• 1:58:41Speaker 03

  So they can interrogate their pacemakers, Joe, and they can ask the question, does the body need the pacemaker now? Or is the body managing its own rhythm? If they're appropriately, and a wellness company, we've come up with Ultimates Bite Detox, which is one, if you go on Amazon, you'll find a lot of these products. But Ultimates Bite Detox is high dose medicinal grade, natto kinase, bromelain and curcumin, which most people need to get out of this problem. It's vital. It's the reason why we formed the Wellness Company in 2022, because we were fulfilling an unmet need.

• 1:59:16Joe Rogan?

  What was the rate of adoption in professional sports in the United States? Was it all sports? I know the NFL, my friend Aaron Rodgers had a real issue, obviously. You know that story?

• 1:59:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:31Joe Rogan?

  Where he was actually allergic to one of the ingredients in one of the vaccines. So he had a very legitimate medical reason for not taking it.

• 1:59:39Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:59:40Joe Rogan?

  And yet he was raked over the coals.

• 1:59:43Speaker 03

  Didn't they make him wear a special band and all of this? But isn't it interesting? You have Aaron Rodgers, at the time, Aaron was the number one quarterback in the league at that time. He was the number one. You had the number one tennis player, Novak Djokovic. You had Kyrie Irving, who was probably one of the top people in the NBA. All of them said, listen, my body is more important than this. I don't need this vaccine. Eric Clapton, greatest guitar player in the world, doesn't, you know, he takes the vaccine.

• 2:00:15Joe Rogan?

  He took it and had a horrible reaction. And was really attacked.

• 2:00:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:00:20Joe Rogan?

  They wrote a horrible LA Times article about what a terrible person he was because he talked about the side effects.

• 2:00:27Speaker 03

  He couldn't play for a year.

• 2:00:28Joe Rogan?

  Of being vaccinated.

• 2:00:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. Eric told me he couldn't play for a year. He had a baseline neuropathy, couldn't play for a year. These other superstar players aren't going to take it. And yet the punishment they received for, and sadly, people did take it, Damar Hamlin, Christian Anderson, all these athletes who had cardiac arrest. Look at Bronny James, who had a near miss, LeBron James' son. You had Uwe Chuchu, who played for USC. He has a, USC mandated the vaccine, so 100%. These guys took the vaccines, the USC basketball team. Uwe Chuchu, he has a cardiac arrest. He actually gets a defibrillator. He got a transvenous defibrillator in. There's all these players out here who are damaged. What I hope is, I hope Cam Newton is right. And you know what Cam said?

• 2:01:14Speaker 03

  You know, Cam kind of grumbled about the vaccines and Atlantic wrote a horrible piece about Cam. You know what ultimately he said?

• 2:01:21Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:01:22Speaker 03

  He said, I think a lot of these people got fake vaccine cards.

• 2:01:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they definitely did.

• 2:01:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:29Joe Rogan?

  I personally know people who got fake vaccine cards.

• 2:01:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:32Joe Rogan?

  Because they needed to travel.

• 2:01:33Speaker 03

  Well, think about it. This is a war. Nobody's being honest with us. Governments are not being honest with us. Why would people be honest with a paper card?

• 2:01:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:01:45Speaker 03

  Where somebody's scribbling writing. Now, in Europe, they actually had electronic systems and Canada was, but United States, it was a lousy paper card. Half my patients can't even find their cards, for crying out loud.

• 2:01:54Joe Rogan?

  What is this supplement?

• 2:01:56Speaker 03

  This is Wellness Company Ultimates Bite Detox. This is high dose, natto kinase, bromelain and curcumin, plus minor ingredients. It's natural. And this is what we use, Joe, to clear the spike protein out of the body. It has very, very good supportive data. Natto kinase gets inside and outside of cells.

• 2:02:16Joe Rogan?

  I take that.

• 2:02:17Speaker 03

  I take it myself. It dissolves the spike protein. It's anti-thrombotic. It helps fight blood clots. And it is our lead product. And we intentionally didn't patent this. Now, it's copyrighted in my name so people can locate it. But we intentionally didn't patent it because the whole world needs this stuff. And if you were to go to Amazon right now and type in Spike Detox, you'd see about three dozen rows of products, all different companies. Wellness Company is the lead. We've done this since 2022. But the point is, if people get on the right detoxification protocol, Spike Detox is huge. Another thing you do a lot of that really helps is sweating.

• 2:02:59Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:03:00Speaker 03

  If you sweat, do you know the messenger RNA Pfizer's been shown in breast milk? Breast milk is modified.

• 2:03:06Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 2:03:07Speaker 03

  And what it's modified sweat. In my patient, we did skin biopsy.

• 2:03:11Joe Rogan?

  So kids are getting vaccinated through their mother's milk, essentially?

• 2:03:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:03:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 2:03:15Speaker 03

  And the spike protein and the vaccine's been found in the placenta.

• 2:03:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:03:19Speaker 03

  But Joe, the body can heal and get rid of this. I want to be very hopeful to people on this. They have to stop taking more shots. Most people have. Get on Spike Detoxification and find whatever protocol. This is a blood thinner. It's very important. This is a minor blood thinner. So people on blood thinners, I use this in conjunction with blood thinners, but I'm a doctor and I oversee this. But you know, we have four US senators now with premature stroke, which is a blood clot?

• 2:03:53Joe Rogan?

  Nick Holstetter?

• 2:03:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, Nick Holsher at McCullough.

• 2:03:55Joe Rogan?

  Holsher, how you say his name? He posted something today that 5% of Democratic senators or congresspeople.

• 2:04:04Speaker 03

  9%.

• 2:04:05Joe Rogan?

  9%?

• 2:04:06Speaker 03

  9%. It's four out of 45. It's 8.9%. So Nick and I were on Newsmax last night.

• 2:04:11Joe Rogan?

  Explain what they got.

• 2:04:12Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:04:13Joe Rogan?

  The 9%.

• 2:04:14Speaker 03

  Okay, so it's four out of 45 Democratic senators right now have had a stroke before age 65. So these people are younger than me, Joe, and they've had a stroke. So we just had.

• 2:04:25Joe Rogan?

  How unusual is that?

• 2:04:26Speaker 03

  It should be way, way less than 1% of the population ever has this happen. And they publicly take vaccines. So Chris Murphy.

• 2:04:38Joe Rogan?

  Performatory.

• 2:04:39Speaker 03

  Right. Listen, I took the vaccine. So we have Chris Murphy, Chris Van Hollen, Ben Ray Lujan, and we had John Fetterman. Now, Fetterman had atrial fibrillation back in 2017, which is a risk factor for stroke and blood clots, not on blood thinners. He may have gone into heart failure, had leg swelling and problems. He publicly takes the shots in 2020, 2021. 2022, in the milieu of atrial fibrillation, not on blood thinners, he has a stroke. Now, he has trouble speaking. Now, last night, I told Rob Finnerty on Newsmax, I said, listen, I think Murphy's going to be fine. I usually have good judgment on this. It's probably an internal capsule stroke, which is a little strategic place in the brain that that can be dissolved and he'll come back fine.

• 2:05:23Speaker 03

  My mom had an internal capsule stroke. The one thing I've done is I've not been wrong. And I've been on, I've been on primetime news now, probably hundreds of times over the last five years. I'm not wrong. When Damar Hamlin had a cardiac arrest, I said, listen, he's going to come back. He's going to walk out of that hospital and be just fine. You know Mark Siegel, who's on Fox? Mark says, oh, we need to raise money for his family. He's a goner. He'll never survive. It's like, you know, we need to have doctors who are right and can give accurate information to the public. And if we ever have another pandemic, I got to tell you right now, I think, I don't think people are going to trust the government. They're going to be going directly to people who have been right all along.

• 2:06:07Joe Rogan?

  I think you're right. Another thing I want to talk to you about, cancer. How many people who took these vaccines have aggressive cancer? And ironically, including the former CEO of YouTube, who actively suppressed all the information about anything that had anything that was remotely critical about the vaccines, she got cancer, like super aggressive cancer, and died.

• 2:06:38Speaker 03

  As a doctor, if you were to tell me there's a product, a biopharmaceutical product, that would cause heart damage and myocarditis and cardiac arrest and heart failure and blood clots. The spike protein is directly in the blood clots. And it would cause autoimmune problems because the body attacks itself because the spike protein is on the cell surfaces. And it causes neurologic problems like transverse myelitis and Guillain-Barre syndrome, of which all those four disease categories, for sure, the vaccines do. If you were to say, listen, Dr. McCullough, just for kickers, it causes cancer. I'd say, come on. How can one product do all this?

• 2:07:23Speaker 03

  This is a mind blowing reality. So a paper that caught my attention was by, was by Bustos. And it was published in Curious Journal of Biomedical Sciences. And it's titled, "The Multi-Hit Hypothesis of COVID-19 Oncogenesis." That is, how the vaccines can actually promote cancer. And it showed a variety of mechanisms. And Sutherland and Baylor, 1984, said, listen, if something's going to cause cancer, it's not by a single mechanism. It has to be by multiple mechanisms, meaning multiple things. So a good point is smoking causing lung cancer.

• 2:08:07Speaker 03

  It's because there's 2,000 components to tar. There's too many things together that can cause cancer. So it makes sense that, geez, the COVID vaccines, how could this happen? Well, the messenger RNA can impair DNA repair because it gets in, it kind of screws up the genetics. The spike protein can interfere and does interfere with two major suppressor systems that actually help defend against cancer, P53 and BRCA, that we have a situation where now a paper by Cantazaro and Holsher has shown, there's probably about three dozen mechanisms by which the scale has been tilted towards cancer. Now, this year, a paper by

• 2:08:54Speaker 03

  Eldery, who's at Brown, Wafik Eldery, very well-respected oncologist, has analyzed this. There are 66 peer-reviewed papers showing both the infection and the COVID vaccines probably tilt the human equation towards cancer. The vaccines far more, but just the infection alone. I'm greatly concerned. 2025, Joe, Time Magazine, on its cover, has all these young people and says, where's all this cancer coming from? And Katie Coric is out there on our podcast. Where's all this cancer coming from? They go out to cancer centers all over the United States. Time Magazine said, what do you think's going on?

• 2:09:37Speaker 03

  Cancer in certain areas, not all cancers, but some cancers are really skyrocketing. And the doctors say, well, they look around. Well, maybe it's cell phones. Maybe it's microplastics. Maybe it's something in the air. Maybe it's... None of them considered the fact that we just went through a worldwide pandemic with a virus that was synthesized in a Chinese biosecurity lab and that 2/3 of the world had taken genetic vaccines. Not a single person they interviewed thought of that.

• 2:10:07Joe Rogan?

  No, I guarantee they thought of it. They just didn't want to say it.

• 2:10:09Speaker 03

  This is...

• 2:10:10Joe Rogan?

  They're still averse to saying it.

• 2:10:12Speaker 03

  ...a mind-blowing reality. Did you see the Irish runner, McGeehan, who just died?

• 2:10:17Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:10:18Speaker 03

  Oh, my Lord. Now, okay, 2024, she wins a world championship in the 1,000 meters. You know what it takes as a woman to win a thousand? She has to be perfectly healthy in 2024. Here we are, 2026, you know, 3/4 of the way through the year, and she's dead of colon cancer.

• 2:10:38Joe Rogan?

  Aggressive.

• 2:10:39Speaker 03

  Unheard of. Joe Biden, sitting president of the United States. Now, listen, his doctor is O'Connor. And I can tell, I'm in practice. I see patients every day. I'm an internist cardiologist. I examine men. I examine their genitalia, prostate exam. I order the tests. I don't have a single patient in my practice in that tenure that has developed widespread metastatic Gleason grade 9 prostate cancer. So here, Joe Biden is in the White House, and it happens under the watch of everybody right there. He's publicly taken six vaccines. I think Joe Biden has COVID vaccine turbo cancer. He's a classic example. And on top of that, I think Joe Biden has a neurologic syndrome

• 2:11:23Speaker 03

  that looks like a vaccine syndrome. I mentioned...

• 2:11:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's also had strokes.

• 2:11:27Speaker 03

  He's had subarachnoid hemorrhage. He's had craniotomies. He's had... So he's been kind of set up. But a paper by Ota and colleagues from Japan showed the messenger RNA is in the brain. It's physically in the blood vessels in the brain. And in my practice, Joe, which is I see, you know, hundreds, if not thousands, of patients who have problems after the vaccines. When they develop a syndrome, it's not classic. So when it's a neurodegenerative disorder, it's not classic Alzheimer's and it's not classic Parkinson's, but a blend. And that's what Biden has. So he shuffles his gait. He's kind of looking forward. He looks like he's going to fall forward, but he doesn't have other features of it. It's not classic.

• 2:12:09Speaker 03

  And there's a paper by Ro and colleagues from Korea, 8 million Koreans. They showed that these neurologic disorders, when they take off after the shots, they skyrocket within a few months. Not everybody gets them, but many of your listeners will tell us that, yeah, my loved one took a shot and they developed rapid dementia or rapid Parkinson's or Lewy body dementia. And sadly, a lot of these are fatal. I don't think Joe Biden has long to live.

• 2:12:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's old anyway. I mean, there's that. He is obviously not healthy. This episode is brought to you by Tacovas. The holidays are coming up. And if you've got a pretty high bar for what's going under the tree this year, check out Tacovas. These guys make some of the best Western boots you can get. They're made by hand designed in Austin, Texas, and they're incredibly durable. Plus, they're super comfortable, right out of the box. No break in required. And it's not just boots. They've got hats, some great-looking apparel, and gifts for the whole family. From the moment you step into one of their stores, you'll feel right at home with friendly folks, true Western craftsmanship, free drinks while you shop, and free holiday gift wrapping.

• 2:13:20Joe Rogan?

  So whether it's your first pair or your 15th, check out Tacovas in-store or online at tacovas.com. That's T-E-C-O-V-A-S dot com. And right now, get 10% off at tacovas.com/rogan when you sign up for email and texts. This episode is brought to you by ShipStation. Black Friday is madness if you're shopping. But if you're the person trying to get all those orders out the door, that's a whole different kind of crazy. That's where ShipStation comes in. It's an end-to-end order fulfillment platform that brings all your orders into one place. So when volume spikes, your team isn't scrambling to keep up.

• 2:14:02Joe Rogan?

  More than 1 million businesses have used ShipStation to get through peak season, scaling fulfillment up to 40 times, while cutting costs up to 30%. It's the kind of tool that helps businesses stay in control when things get nuts and every order matters. Peak season doesn't wait, and neither should you. Get ahead of it today with ShipStation and get 60 days free at shipstation.com with the code JRE. That's shipstation.com code JRE. Taxes and fees apply. I want to talk to you about SV40

• 2:14:42Joe Rogan?

  and the instances of SV40 being found in samples of the vaccine.

• 2:14:49Speaker 03

  Multiple labs. Now, simian virus 40, this is... And it's used, by the way, to make vaccines. So we take... When you want to make a...

• 2:14:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, the virus isn't used to make vaccines. Simeon virus 40 is used to make vaccines?

• 2:15:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is kind of how it works.

• 2:15:04Joe Rogan?

  It's the culture. It's like...

• 2:15:06Speaker 03

  I know, but you want to... Okay, one wants to make a ton of messenger RNA. So this is how you do it. You take a DNA in plasma. You take a DNA, a circular piece of DNA in E. coli. And remember, the RNA is going to anneal to the DNA and be the complete reverse pattern of this. So if you take the DNA code for the spike protein and insert a promoter, SV40 promoter, SV40 enhancer, what's called the origin of insertion, and then antibiotic resistance genes. So that E. coli that actually has the goods can survive. And you treat the rest of the E. coli with antibiotics and kill them off.

• 2:15:50Speaker 03

  Now you've got a purified E. coli colony that can crank massive amounts of DNA that code for the Pfizer-Maderna messenger RNA. And that's how you can make it in high quantities. That's called process one. Process two, they were making it from scratch during the clinical trials. When they got to mass production, they said, listen, we got to put this into E. coli.

• 2:16:12Joe Rogan?

  That's very important, right? Because they made it very differently during the clinical trials than they did during mass production. And during mass production... So the simian virus 40 comes from primate kidney cells?

• 2:16:24Speaker 03

  Right. And it is... It's a oncogene activator. It's basically a cancer sequence. So, but one is going to make this crank. And it was used, actually, the polio vaccine got contaminated with SV40 back... Actually, in the time as a kid, that I probably received one of these shots as a kid, where this became a big deal with the polio vaccines that were using SV40. The Institute of Medicine was called in. They did a big review. They said, listen, you got to clean up the process. Get SV40 out of polio vaccine manufacturing. They did. But the Institute of Medicine said, listen, we can't know how many cancers, like in Dr. McCullough, later on are going to be attributable to these shots. That was their final report. They said, we don't know.

• 2:17:08Joe Rogan?

  Is there an increase in cancer post-polio vaccine?

• 2:17:13Speaker 03

  We don't know. We don't know. There's a great concern since, you know, a decent segment of the population received SV40 in these vaccines. Now, hopefully, it was low enough dose and the body is hopefully edited this out. But with the COVID shots, when SV40 in multiple labs, David Speaker in Canada and Kevin McKernan in the United States and Schoenberg in Europe, multiple labs have said, listen, Pfizer-Maderna has SV40 in it, for sure, for sure. This was presented to Health Canada. Joe Ladapo, the surgeon, Joe North of Florida, wrote this up and presented it to our CDC and FDA, regulatory authorities all over the world.

• 2:17:55Speaker 03

  No, we don't have any concerns about this. No investigations, no inspections. Think about this. Not a single country has, as a government agency, opened up the vials and inspected them for SV40.

• 2:18:12Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. That is absolutely insane.

• 2:18:17Speaker 03

  It's formerly been brought to their attention. We're concerned that SV40 is one of these multi-hit mechanisms that has been summarized by Kent Azaro, summarized by Anguas and Bustos. I'm concerned. Listen, I've got family members who have taken this.

• 2:18:35Joe Rogan?

  So you've laid out all these different factors, including SV40, and you think that is what should have been on the cover of Time Magazine when they were talking about all these people getting cancer.

• 2:18:45Speaker 03

  Correct. It should have been. Listen, we went through a pandemic. We were all exposed to this spike protein. By the way, how many of your friends never got COVID ever? Do you know anybody?

• 2:18:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I know one lady.

• 2:18:57Speaker 03

  Okay, you know one.

• 2:18:58Joe Rogan?

  No, I know two. I know a guy who never got it as well.

• 2:19:00Speaker 03

  So you know two out of 2,000?

• 2:19:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and they weren't vaccinated either.

• 2:19:02Speaker 03

  In my practice, I know one or two. But I've pushed artificial intelligence on this. I said, listen, go to the county databases, go to the serology database, go, go, tell me how many people got COVID in the world. You know what the answer is? 97%. So we almost all got it. We got exposed to this stuff.

• 2:19:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:21Speaker 03

  And it was the spike protein is devised in a Chinese biosecurity lab. We all got exposed to this. Couple important inferences. Can you imagine way back when in the Trump administration, if we had good forecasting, and we said, listen, everybody, we're all getting it. This thing's so damn contagious, we're all gonna get it. So the goal is to just get through it. If we can avoid hospitalization and death, we win. Let's call in McCullough, Corey, Zelenko, Bowden, let's call in everybody, and let's just treat people and get them through this. This will be over with in two years. Spanish flu was over with in two years. It was done. If we would have accurately forecasted this, that everyone's gonna get

• 2:20:05Speaker 03

  it, we never would have wore masks. Remember, masking is to try to prevent getting it. Remember lockdowns? That's to try to prevent getting it. Hand sanitizers. All of this stuff was under the false narrative that you can avoid getting it. And again, she's jaw, Fauci, nobody's come back and said, you know what? We are wrong, by the way. All that contagion control was a waste of time. We blew trillions of dollars trying not to get COVID, and we all got it anyway.

• 2:20:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:35Speaker 03

  It's a mind blowing reality.

• 2:20:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, hindsight is 2020, though, right?

• 2:20:41Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 2:20:42Joe Rogan?

  And there was also this very distorted perception of what the dangers of the virus were going to be. It was listed by some people as high as 10% mortality.

• 2:20:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:20:51Joe Rogan?

  It got crazy in the beginning.

• 2:20:52Speaker 03

  It took a while to shake out initially. I remember a very frightening call we had at the National Institutes of Health, and I was on one of the oversight panels for NIH for years, where initially it was like, oh, my lord. We had a report in from Italy where doctors were dying of it, nurses were dying of it. I came home when I told my wife, I said, listen, this could really be it. I mean, it was frightening, until we sorted through it. We also had a precedent that threw us off, and that was SARS-1. Remember, the first SARS virus, it didn't spread over the world. It lasted about 90 days, and all this masking and locking down and contagion control kinda contained it. It was kinda contained. Remember

• 2:21:35Speaker 03

  for other viral outbreaks, like Ebola, some of the real fatal ones?

• 2:21:38Joe Rogan?

  Isn't there an Ebola outbreak currently?

• 2:21:40Speaker 03

  There is. Democratic Republic of Congo.

• 2:21:42Joe Rogan?

  I think 5,000 people have died, 10,000 got it.

• 2:21:45Speaker 03

  Right, but the principle is it's containable. It almost certainly won't be a worldwide thing.

• 2:21:50Joe Rogan?

  Why's that?

• 2:21:51Speaker 03

  Because the fact that it's so fatal, and it's a contact virus, so just simply hand hygiene, keep the people separate. 99% of people get Ebola, can't wash their hands after they use the toilet. It's spread from feco-oral stuff. And so far, virtually everybody in that outbreak who gets to the hospital is saved. So you can save people with Ebola, they just need IV fluids and support. So the point is, viral outbreaks can be contained, and people can avoid getting it. That was the first operating principle in 2020. And then, when this thing broke loose, it became more obvious over time we were all gonna get

• 2:22:34Speaker 03

  it. But I think the last time you and I met, it's very interesting, I was telling you how good natural immunity was, and I was citing the data. I'm probably the only person who comes on your show. I actually cite the papers with first author, I'm nailing it down, Cowan colleagues, all the other papers that showed you couldn't get it twice. You and I met two days later, on the border of Rwanda, a vaccinated traveler gets COVID for the second time. It was two days after you and I met, that it became known with the Omicron variant, you could get COVID twice. You could genuinely get it twice. Before that, natural immunity held up for two years.

• 2:23:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:14Speaker 03

  Now you can get it over and over again.

• 2:23:16Joe Rogan?

  I got it a second time. But when I got it a second time, I literally, I had sniffles.

• 2:23:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:23:21Joe Rogan?

  That was it. I had a nurse that was testing everyone before the shows. So we would do a test, not a PCR test, by the way, which is important, we should talk about that as well. So we did a test before the show, and I was joking around, because I had a little bit of a sniffle. I'd just gotten back from the gym, and I said, hopefully I don't have COVID, just joking. And she's like, oh, my god, you tested positive. I'm like, no way. Like, this is COVID? This is crazy. Got some IV vitamins, went home, took the podcast day off, got tested the next day, I was negative.

• 2:23:59Speaker 03

  Hmm, okay.

• 2:24:00Joe Rogan?

  So I think it was on a Monday, so I might have had it on the weekend or something? I don't remember. I don't remember the details. It was very fun.

• 2:24:07Speaker 03

  But it shows you how robust natural immunity is, right?

• 2:24:09Joe Rogan?

  Yes. It was very quick. And by the way, I didn't feel bad at all. I literally just had sniffles, and I was laughing. Like, this is COVID? This is the second infection of COVID? Okay, I guess I have it, you know?

• 2:24:21Speaker 03

  Well, you know, natural immunity is cellular, it's antibody, it's IgG, IgA, natural killer cells. It's, natural immunity is robust, and if you'd have your druthers on anything, you'd rather have natural immunity.

• 2:24:35Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:24:36Speaker 03

  It's true for measles, it's true for all of this.

• 2:24:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, with COVID, it was seven times more effective, right? So, the PCR test. You know, I'm sure you've seen the video of Carey Mullis criticizing Fauci, saying he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, and that he's a bureaucrat, and has no business telling people, you know. And this was, this was a long time ago. This was before COVID, you know? I think this was, like, he died before COVID. But the false positives were through the roof, especially early on, because they were running so many cycles of the PCR. How much of that contributed, do you think, to the hysteria?

• 2:25:13Speaker 03

  Oh, tons. Here we are. Podcaster is, knows as much as a laboratory physician. I mean, everyone knows about the PCR test, even kids, junior high kids and high school kids, polymerase chain reaction. So turns out that any one of the genetic sequence for any one of these 30 proteins in this little ball, the genetic sequence is known. So if one can identify a few little base pairs of a genetic sequence that's exposed, that one can create what's called a primer. So the PCR test used four primers, spike protein, envelope protein, nucleocapsule protein, and what's called origin ascension protein,

• 2:25:56Speaker 03

  or sequence. So these are not proteins, but these are sequences, RNA sequences. So four primers, and you float it out there and say, listen, see if these things, let's cycle it once, see if anything comes up, cycle it again, cycle it again. And you know, if you, if you were to cycle it, and it turns positive on the second cycle, woo, you probably got a real thing. And four cycles, whatever. And the CDC was looking at this and said, listen, no matter, whatever you do, lab companies, don't go past 25 cycles, because if you do, this is CDC said this in their guidance, they say you're gonna generate a lot of false positives. People are picking up little, you know, surfaces of an orange, or off a

• 2:26:36Speaker 03

  table, because you can just ultimately get false positives. So what did the companies do? They took it all the way up to like 45 cycles plus. So the vast majority of the PCR positive tests were false positive, and the best data come from the employee screening studies. So a good one to quote is in Japan Olympics. So if you screen everybody who's completely asymptomatic, you know, every day, or every week, about 1% of people over time will generate positive, which is probably what you found on your show. 1% would be positive. Of those who are positive, 80% are false positive. So what I've said is, listen, because it can be a potentially fatal illness, and it has consequences with employment

• 2:27:19Speaker 03

  and have you, once we got to PCR testing, certainly low cycle threshold would be the way to go, but if we're not gonna do that, let's have confirmatory testing with antigen testing, like rapid antigen testing.

• 2:27:30Joe Rogan?

  Right. That's what we did here.

• 2:27:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, with HIV, we don't rely on one test. We always have confirmatory testing. We use duality of testing. We should have done that with COVID. So the PCR test became this generator of false cases. This got reported, and what made it worse is the PCR test influenced attribution, attribution of mortality. So what now, you know, the CDC definition of a COVID death is that if you were PCR positive at any time, and then you died, it counted as a COVID death.

• 2:28:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Elon was on the podcast saying that if you got bit by a shark, and you tested positive for COVID, they listed it as a COVID death.

• 2:28:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:28:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, they also were financially compensated for COVID deaths. This was a problem.

• 2:28:15Speaker 03

  Well, it was the leading cause of hospitalization, and the number one hospital reimbursement for two years, two years. So the hospitals quickly learned the game. They're, they're in the money, making money like anybody else. They're in the game, and so they would do PCR testing. And of interest, many of them dropped influenza testing. So someone comes in.

• 2:28:40Joe Rogan?

  So they're doing 40 cycles, 45 cycles of PCR testing, they're dropping the influenza testing, and they're getting compensated for positive COVID results, more than 80% of which are false positive.

• 2:28:51Speaker 03

  And to make matters worse, Joe, some little old person who really has influenza, they would come in and get remdesivir.

• 2:28:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, god. Oh, god.

• 2:29:04Speaker 03

  You know, influenza basically went away.

• 2:29:09Joe Rogan?

  I know, which is wild.

• 2:29:10Speaker 03

  This is mind blowing.

• 2:29:12Joe Rogan?

  Wild, which is also impossible, actually impossible.

• 2:29:16Speaker 03

  So it had to be gaming of the PCR test, gaming of, and you know, there's an example of what's going on now, today of gaming with the PCR test. And you know, the disease?

• 2:29:26Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:29:27Speaker 03

  It's measles.

• 2:29:28Joe Rogan?

  Really? They're using PCR tests for measles? How many cycles are they running?

• 2:29:32Speaker 03

  I don't know, but I can tell you, Quest and LabCorp have gone bonkers with measles testing. Now, listen, a few years ago-

• 2:29:39Joe Rogan?

  Because this is all because of a lot of anti-vax talk about measles and a lot of-

• 2:29:43Speaker 03

  Now it's easy, now it's easy to ramp up the case count. So people are blaming RFK and Trump. Oh, there's a measles outbreak. Of interest, guess what? There's a measles outbreak in the UK. Well, Trump and RFK have nothing to do with what's going on in the UK. So testing is going through the roof. It turns out, we've probably had viral exanthems, viral rashes forever, and there've probably been breakthrough cases of measles, you know, not of any clinical import. Now everyone's being tested, and I've looked at a few of the cases in Pennsylvania, and I'm enormously suspicious that Josh Shapiro, who is really taking aim at Trump and RFK, I think Josh Shapiro has basically given out the orders

• 2:30:23Speaker 03

  for the medical examiners to do measles PCR testing of deaths. So a couple of these deaths don't make any sense at all, where there's no rash, there's no, there's no pneumonitis, whatever, but they're measles PCR, and they said, oh, we've got a measles death.

• 2:30:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 2:30:41Speaker 03

  So, no, so the gaming of the PCR and attribution of death is something we have to, you know, get a grip on. It's really bad.

• 2:30:49Joe Rogan?

  That's terrifying. It's just, it's terrifying when there's financial incentives. The financial incentives that existed during COVID to list everything, a COVID death, and that COVID infections, that they were financially compensated for treating COVID infections, when in fact, many of them were false positives.

• 2:31:10Speaker 03

  And the amount of money we paid for these hospitalizations, do you know that even in 2023, there was a paper in JAMA from Johns Hopkins of Omicron? You know, if people ended up on the ventilator that late in the pandemic, you know, the mortality rate was still 40%, 40%, ventilator mortality. You know, early in the pandemic, I was on some calls where people were talking about 90% ventilator mortality rate.

• 2:31:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:31:37Speaker 03

  So, wait a minute, we've had six years of the pandemic. Hospitals and doctors have a lot of bravado. They want to be really good at heart disease and cancer and surgery. And have you ever seen those billboards where the doctors, they kind of look like you, Joe, they're all jacked, and they're wearing their scrubs, and they're like fighting disease. Have you seen these type of, you know, these commercials for healthcare, you know, we're gonna, we're the best. In Dallas-Fort Worth, everyone is claiming to be the best. Do you know how a single hospital claims to be the best at COVID? Not a one. There's not a single hospital that said, we're number one. We had the lowest mortality rate, the lowest ventilator use, here's our innovative protocols.

• 2:32:18Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 2:32:19Speaker 03

  This is wild.

• 2:32:20Joe Rogan?

  That is crazy.

• 2:32:21Speaker 03

  Not a one. This was a number, this was a cash cow. Nobody claims to be any good. I'm on a standing committee in the Arizona Senate and House, and they said, Dr. McCullough, how can we ever get ready for another pandemic? I said, call in your hospital CEOs and CMOs, and let's do comparative statistics. Let's do lessons learned. Let's do shared learning about this. Comparative statistics. She said, they will not come in. They will not show up. They will not show up. They showed no innovation. They delivered, they just had a US Senate hearing on this. The care was horrible in the hospital. And they know it.

• 2:33:06Joe Rogan?

  Why are you depressing me?

• 2:33:10Speaker 03

  Well, we have, we have, listen, out of the pandemic, Joe, good things have happened. We formed the wellness company, Foster Coulson, founder from Canada, Peter Galouli, our CEO. We've got a wonderful board. We've got Drew Pinsky, Kelly Victory, myself, Harvey Risch. We have formed a nationwide global company with our own pharmacies, our own compounding pharmacies, innovative products and solutions. We have emergency medical kits. We'll never get burned with COVID again because we have pre-prescribed medications that get out to people. We've got ivermectin compounded. We've got ivermectin and amendazol, which is a wonderful story now for cancer.

• 2:33:51Joe Rogan?

  Has ivermectin lost its stigma?

• 2:33:55Speaker 03

  Oh, I think so. I think so. The pharmacies, if you go to CVS or Walgreens, they still won't fill it. But the compounding pharmacies are very good wellness company.

• 2:34:04Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy? The pharmacies still won't prescribe-

• 2:34:06Speaker 03

  They still won't. They still won't.

• 2:34:07Joe Rogan?

  Still won't make it.

• 2:34:08Speaker 03

  Wellness company, listen, we've got, we have the nation's Medicare care management contract for the senior citizens with Medicare, big Dallas office in operation. That's where I am right now.

• 2:34:19Joe Rogan?

  What if somebody gets something that they used to use ivermectin for before the pandemic, like yellow fever? Will they fulfill prescription for that?

• 2:34:28Speaker 03

  Well, you could do any parasitic infection, like river blindness, for instance.

• 2:34:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:33Speaker 03

  But my experience is, they will prescribe no, they will fill no ivermectin.

• 2:34:39Joe Rogan?

  That is literally crazy.

• 2:34:40Speaker 03

  That's the reason why we need the wellness company. We have pharmacies now, and you know, we only use our green-listed, FDA-approved, original pharmaceutical ingredients, the APIs, high quality. And I can tell you, the next pandemic, people are going to look at Fauci, or Zhah, or any of these people. They're going to go to innovative companies that are going to provide solutions, and we're ready to do it.

• 2:35:06Joe Rogan?

  Certainly Fauci, certainly Fauci, particularly after those last hearings, which was wild.

• 2:35:10Speaker 03

  Remember, the government didn't treat anybody. The CDC has 12,000 employees, $9 billion annual budget. They didn't treat a single patient. They don't operate hospitals. They don't operate clinics. They don't dispense drugs. This is very important. That's the reason why, out of the pandemic, we've had innovative solutions arise. You know, there are now companies giving provisions. We have this recent, have you heard this American Fortress warning about having 90 days of having water, food, having provisions?

• 2:35:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:48Speaker 03

  We have companies that can do it. The wellness company, we have medical solutions, you have Patriot Supply, you have all these other companies now. Solar, Elon Musk and his solar and cellphone service. People, now, we actually have solutions, whereas years ago, we didn't.

• 2:36:07Joe Rogan?

  Before we leave, I want to talk to you about the personal cost that you endured when you spoke out, and when you were, you know, essentially a dissident. When you were, in the beginning of the COVID pandemic, you were the person that people pointed to and said, this is an example of misinformation. Like you said, you were accused of selling snake oil. Like, what was it like for your career? What was the impact?

• 2:36:41Speaker 03

  Well, let me tell you, I didn't have a stroke. I didn't have myocarditis. I'm healthy. I'm older than you, and I feel great. And so, when you look at the people who lost their lives, and the people who have been devastated by the infection or the vaccine, just the fact that we have our health, Joe, is so important. It's so much more, honestly, than our jobs. And I had put my whole life into medicine since age 17. But I, what I saw was so horrible, and saw people suffering, you know, people died alone. They died alone. I saw things that were so bad. I couldn't sit back and say, you know what? I'm going

• 2:37:22Speaker 03

  to protect my career and let somebody else take the bullets. If I helped one person, it was worth it. One. That's the criteria. That's what a doctor does. We have a million doctors, and half a million nurse practitioners that sat on the sidelines and let Americans get slaughtered. We had a handful of people who stepped forward.

• 2:37:54Speaker 03

  I wouldn't change a thing.

• 2:37:57Joe Rogan?

  But what happened to you? Like, what was-

• 2:38:00Speaker 03

  Well, everything, everything. I was stripped of everything. Professorships, editorships, grants, advisory panels, consultancies, you name it.

• 2:38:11Speaker 03

  If they could, they would have just pinned me up to a cross.

• 2:38:17Speaker 03

  It's just, it's so bad. And, you know, I have colleagues in Australia and Europe and the UK and Canada and South America, they did the same thing as me. They did the right thing.

• 2:38:29Speaker 03

  I think history will record.

• 2:38:31Joe Rogan?

  I think it will as well. Have any of those things been restored? That you were stripped of?

• 2:38:37Speaker 03

  Out of these professional downturns, and there were lawsuits and money lost and corruption and gray things have been spawned. We spawned the wellness company, you know, which is heading towards skyrocketing for evaluation and IPO. We're going to be enormously successful. We have New York Times bestselling books. You know, I'm in my fifth office in Dallas, but I'm thriving now, you know, in a great environment. I'm the editor of a major journal after losing two editorships. I've still yet to have an academic organization call me in for grand rounds. And my goal is to live long enough to get that call.

• 2:39:21Speaker 03

  2019, I was a visiting professor in medicine and I lectured at Harvard in two divisions. Two divisions. They all know me. They all know me at the Mayo Clinic. They know me at every major institution in the United States. And I have patients go to those institutions. And they specifically bring up my name. They say, "Yeah, we know Dr. McCullough." Not a single one of my former colleagues in academia will send even as much as an email or a text or a phone call.

• 2:39:51Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:39:51Speaker 03

  It is airtight.

• 2:39:56Speaker 03

  It is airtight.

• 2:39:59Speaker 03

  And some of them have died. You know, our former chief of cardiology, when I was a division chief, had William Beaumont in Detroit, David Haynes. We have an annual ski meeting. David just dies right there in the hotel. He had cardiac arrest. One of my colleagues at Baylor in Dallas, cardiologist my age, Dr. Jimenez, he just dies of cardiac arrest.

• 2:40:20Speaker 03

  It's happening. It's happening. We are seeing people die out from the pandemic. I predict that when we look back on this, for a period of time, human longevity will be truncated due to the pandemic, both from the infection and from the vaccines. We're already seeing a fertility cliff. It's very important. Dr. Viva K. Manichy, one of the most respected public health figures in Democrats, already published this. Fertility has fallen off a cliff after the first year of vaccination, both male and female fertility. I just told you, 9% of Democratic senators have had premature stroke, 9%.

• 2:41:02Speaker 03

  Add in a few more. Lauren Boebert, a Colorado representative, has had blood clots surgically taken out of her legs. It was called Matherner syndrome, probably driven by the spike protein. Dianne Feinstein dies of neuroinvasive varicella in her brain. That's a COVID vaccine injury syndrome. And the list goes on and on. All the athletes, all of our friends in the media, we see this happening. So we're gonna, humanity took a hit. Two big waves, the infection and now the vaccines. Now we're gonna recover through the wellness company, things that you've done. Independent media is rocking right now because no one can trust mainstream media. They know they're not getting a straight story.

• 2:41:44Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely. Another thing was the increase in all-cause mortality, which insurance companies were posting about. And that was extraordinary. At one point, I think it was like 40% increase in all-cause mortality for young people, which is nuts.

• 2:42:02Speaker 03

  It's a Six Sigma event. These guys, these actuaries know the expected rates of death. And all-cause mortality for working age people skyrocketed. Great credit to Edward Dowd, who's a former, you know, financial manager, who studied this very carefully. John Beddewine, who's studied the death certificates and what's going on. These people have all written books. The books will go down. There's dozens of books now that are very helpful to understand what's happened. But you're right, mortality has gone up. You know what's really spooky is probably 10 or 15 years ago, we used to hear about people, politicians being concerned we're gonna run out of money for Social Security or Medicare. You never

• 2:42:47Speaker 03

  hear that anymore. No one brings it up.

• 2:42:51Joe Rogan?

  They don't?

• 2:42:53Speaker 03

  Have you heard anybody this season worry about Social Security running out of money?

• 2:42:57Joe Rogan?

  I thought I have.

• 2:42:59Speaker 03

  Fiscal responsibility. Well, fiscal responsibility's kinda gone out the window. But the point is, you know, there is an actuarial loss now of people. Now, the baby boomers are on the tail end of the baby boomers. Baby boomers are 19, gosh, what are they? 1960, 1946 to 1964. So on the tail end of the baby boomers. That big swallow of the population now is all either older than me. Sadly, some have passed away. So we're gonna see a big swallow of the population pass away. It is a reality. And things are gonna curtail. But we have to get control of fiscal responsibility. And these numbers are very

• 2:43:39Speaker 03

  important to know. Our US spend on our budget in 2004 was 2.2 trillion with a T. That's how much we spent in 2004. We got to 2019, we're at 4.4 trillion, doubled. That's more than the time value of money, doubled. We get to COVID, under Trump administration, we go 4.4, 6.6 trillion overnight, overnight. That's a 50% increase in our budget. Money was just hemorrhaging all over the place. Now, now we're into Trump 2.0, big, beautiful bill, which is a big spending bill as well, 7.7 trillion dollars. Elon Musk, you've had him on your show. Elon tries to go to Washington. He sees waste,

• 2:44:23Speaker 03

  fraud, and abuse everywhere. And they couldn't wait to see him get out of Washington because he was gonna ruin the party. We're in an absolute spending orgy as a country right now. And we're borrowing from ourselves through Treasury bonds. So when this whole party ends, it's gonna be, "Sorry, American people. We know you liked your 401Ks, but the whole Treasury bond system is going bust."

• 2:44:50Joe Rogan?

  All right. On that note-

• 2:44:53Speaker 03

  So we have to do better. The point is, we have to do better. And I think people are learning the truth. Let's hope that through elections, let's hope through people seeking truth, getting a whole variety of opinions, that we take a better course. And I think the future's bright, but the pandemic was certainly a six-year learning experience, and it's gonna go on for a few more years.

• 2:45:14Joe Rogan?

  Agreed. All right. Well, thank you, sir. It was great to see you again.

• 2:45:17Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:45:18Joe Rogan?

  And thank you for all your courage. I really appreciate it. And for your ethics and your morals. You're a good man.

• 2:45:25Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:45:26Joe Rogan?

  Bye, everybody.