The 2026 NBA Trade Value List. Plus, Harden, JJJ, and Giannis Trade News With Joe House

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to discuss some trade news around the NBA before breaking down his 2026 NBA trade value list (0:34). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Joe House Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Order ALDI on Uber Eats: https://earn.sng.link/A99vk/i2fm/okid The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:25Speaker 01

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• 0:37Speaker 02

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• 2:04Bill Simmons?

  All right, live on Netflix. I can't speak. Live on Netflix. Bill Simmons here with Joe House. We are going to do our annual NBA Trade Value List podcast that we have been doing. The first one, House, December 2007, the first year I had a podcast on the worldwide leader. And in that trade value list, I think we ranked Carlos Boozer above Dirk Nowitzki.

• 2:29Bill Simmons?

  And now 19 years later, Carlos Boozer's son now about to be a top three pick in the NBA draft. It all comes around. And now we're on Netflix, a place that was mailing out DVDs to customers in 2007. And now we're doing a live podcast for Netflix and Spotify. Spotify existed in 2007, but look at this, we're just moving with the times. This is great. I will explain the trade value concept to everybody in a second, but we got to talk about James Harden first.

• 2:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:00Bill Simmons?

  James Harden.

• 3:01Speaker 04

  News of the day.

• 3:02Bill Simmons?

  We always get everybody's like, it's gonna be a slow trade though. And then all of a sudden, Saturday or Sunday, whatever day that was during the weekend, it was like, James Harden not playing tonight, personal reasons, parentheses. It was like, oh, hmm, personal reasons. What does this mean? Are we, are we about to do the dance with James Harden again? Then it leaks out. Chris Mannix reports yesterday, there is a James Harden, Darius Garland trade that's far down the road and might happen, might not. Now, as we're recording this, Tuesday, 10:30 PT AM, feels like this trade is happening. What was your reaction when you heard that this trade was even a one for one possibility as we're working on the trade value list?

• 3:41Speaker 04

  It made sense, to be honest. I got to see Cleveland this year up close and personal, went to Wizards game, and Darius Garland played, which was great, you know, got to see him. I will tell you, you're, you're the expert at, at the body language and, and all of the, you know, you have your PhD in analyzing team chemistry.

• 4:08Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 4:09Speaker 04

  But it was, I was paying attention because we had, I had really good seats. Thank you to our good friends. I'm not going to give a shout out, actually. Just thank you to all of our good friends out there. And the, like, it was just not like a big bro hug kind of vibe coming out of, out of Cleveland in general when I saw them. And I think this was in December. But, you know, the guys were kind of all navigating their own paths is what I would say. And I didn't.

• 4:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's a, it's a car keys situation, right? They, they somewhat easily coexisted last year, Garland and Mitchell. The team did really well.

• 4:52Bill Simmons?

  But now, you know, Garland's in year seven. Mitchell's got a new extension coming up. Garland has been repeatedly getting hurt. I want to talk about that in a second. I did want to remind people the Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by FanDuel. And it's the last call for football on FanDuel. One final Sunday, one last kickoff, the final chance to place your bets before the NFL season closes its tab because after the Super Bowl, the season's over, football's officially done and we, me and House are sad. Last call for football on FanDuel, an official sportsbook partner of Super Bowl 60. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game, promo code 100 gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

• 5:36Bill Simmons?

  So Garland, there's a durability thing with him that I think is factoring in. One thing about James Harden, he, the moods will go up and down, maybe the weight will even go up and down a tiny bit, but he does play. He's out there. He is durable. Whereas Garland is not, and you know, he can get out of his contract after the year. The shit detector in me though, he had a trade kicker, 15% trade kicker. Harden. Cleveland is, yeah, Cleveland is over the second apron. So this deal works as a one for one, but if you put in the 15% trade kicker. Now granted, we've only had these apron rules for a year and a half and they're like trying to figure out, trying to read Chinese or something, but I'm pretty sure the kicker

• 6:18Bill Simmons?

  would then make it impossible for Cleveland to do the deal, which leads me to wonder, did they have to ask Harden to waive the trade kicker? Hmm. And he's like, well, why would I do that? Are you going to give me an extension? Both teams or one team both say, well, we can't give you an extension because the one-year deal you signed, you can't get an extension till the summer. Then we move into wink, wink category. Oh, boy. Well, what if we wink winked an extension for the summer? Who knows? The other thing we don't know is who pushed for this trade. Did the Clippers do this? And Harden found out, I theorized that today. He finds out all of a sudden he's in a trade. He's mad. He doesn't play. Or because the Clippers wouldn't give him an extension.

• 6:59Bill Simmons?

  Was he out scouting possible teams, ended up with Cleveland and now they're just trying to figure it out. Which one would you bet on out of those two scenarios?

• 7:07Speaker 04

  I, I think the latter, although I, the, the whole wink wink thing, he doesn't have a great track record of that.

• 7:14Bill Simmons?

  No, he said, he's had a poor wink wink history.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  Daryl Morey is a liar.

• 7:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's right. He called Daryl Morey a liar.

• 7:21Speaker 04

  According to, according to James Harden, not me, James Harden.

• 7:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, I'm proceeding like this trade is going to happen and it's interesting timing because the Clippers, at least by advanced metrics, were the best team in the league for the last 20 games. I don't think they actually were the best team in the league, but they were making a playoff run. Um, they were gonna be at least in the play in and probably in the playoffs. Gahaw, our producer is a big Clipper fan. And I'm gonna assume this trade happens and I just want to say this now, I don't want to jinx it. I'm so happy as a Clippers season ticket holder who has deliberately not been going to that many games, mostly because, all due respect, I'm sure he's a nice guy. I cannot stand watching James Harden. I can't stand it. I don't like it. I don't like driving 40 minutes to the

• 8:06Bill Simmons?

  Intuit Dome and then having to watch James Harden just have the ball all the time and fish for fouls. I just don't have a good time. It's not what I like.

• 8:15Speaker 04

  So I'm kind of surprised to hear that.

• 8:18Bill Simmons?

  What do you mean? You've known me for almost 40 years. How are you surprised? What part of James Harden's game would I be like, oh, I love, that's my kind of basketball?

• 8:26Speaker 04

  Well, first of all, he, he does, you know, get his assists and especially, you know, the guys who, who will go to the rim, he and Zubac had a really nice, uh, pick and roll thing going and, and Zoo really elevated last season. I mean, the run that they went on and how they got to 50 games was in no small part because of that chemistry between Harden and, and Zoo and then-

• 8:49Bill Simmons?

  So you're driving 45 minutes back and forth to watch James Harden? That's what you're telling me? You're gonna do that 15 times a year?

• 8:55Speaker 04

  Let me ask you this question. How many times have you seen Luka play live?

• 9:00Bill Simmons?

  Luka is more fun to me because even though it's the same kind of monoculture basketball thing, but Luka brings in the added benefit of you get to try to figure out what mood he's in. He gets mad at people. He gets like really pissed at opponents and referees. It's like, it's almost like watching like my six-year-old son as an NBA superstar. You don't know when he's gonna throw a tantrum.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  Does have a short fuse. It does seem like that.

• 9:25Bill Simmons?

  He'll take over a game for like eight minutes and it's awesome. Like I'm way more fascinated in him and I think he makes sense in the context of the Lakers in LA. Like he's a celebrity. Like your eyes gravitate to him.

• 9:36Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 9:37Bill Simmons?

  I just maybe have been watching James Harden for too long.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  What about in the context of a winning basketball team? He did, he did drag a team to the finals and it really was the, the perfect kind of team.

• 9:47Bill Simmons?

  Luka did.

• 9:47Speaker 04

  Luka did. That's what I mean.

• 9:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I'm pro, I'm way more pro Luka than James Harden. I have a list for you. It's my least favorite good players to watch in the 21st century. We're not 25.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  Least favorite good players. Okay, go ahead.

• 10:01Bill Simmons?

  James Harden is my least favorite player to watch in person since Dwight Howard.

• 10:08Speaker 04

  I could see a good.

• 10:09Bill Simmons?

  Never, ever, ever enjoyed watching Dwight Howard. Ever.

• 10:11Speaker 04

  I could see a good bit of him. I can't remember. I feel, I think I left feeling neutral about him.

• 10:16Bill Simmons?

  Remember we sat courtside in, uh, for the Super Bowl in Indianapolis?

• 10:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 10:21Bill Simmons?

  That the Patriots fucking blew. Um, we sat underneath the basket and it was right when Dwight Howard was becoming unhappy with his Orlando situation. Maybe he was already unhappy. We got to watch him just ram into bodies and bang around and do Dwight Howard and stuff. Yeah, he was very physical. I don't know if I would have wanted to watch that 15 times. Um, Steve Francis.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 10:42Bill Simmons?

  Putting him on here for my least favorite good players to watch 21st century. The classic score-first point guard.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:49Bill Simmons?

  Who has no interest in setting up anyone else in the team, but somehow gets all his stats. I have him.

• 10:53Speaker 04

  I feel like this is gonna be a theme.

• 10:56Bill Simmons?

  No, your guy Bradley Beal.

• 10:59Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 11:00Bill Simmons?

  Putting him on there. Yeah. Bradley Beal last few years.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  What do you want me to say? I mean, I have nothing, I have nothing to say.

• 11:09Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 11:10Speaker 04

  What's crazy, I will say this, you know, there, there was a very nice celebration of John Wall last week. John Wall's part of the prime team. And they did a bobblehead for him. And I honestly think they may get around to retiring John Wall's jersey. But the curious thing is you can't retire both John Wall and Brad Beal. I mean, all that team did was get to the semis.

• 11:34Bill Simmons?

  You're telling me you're gonna retire John Wall's jersey?

• 11:37Speaker 04

  I think there's a chance. I think it's possible.

• 11:39Bill Simmons?

  They should retire his, his cap, his amnesty clause cap figure, whatever the hell they had to do. Who, who should be the fifth player in this team? Harden, Dwight Howard, Steve Francis, Bradley Beal? I need a power forward.

• 11:51Speaker 04

  Oh, well, I'm glad that, that you didn't say the guy who's going to, to absolutely be transformative for my Washington team next year, next year. And that's Trey Young, who I was positive.

• 12:00Bill Simmons?

  I don't mind watching Trey Young.

• 12:01Speaker 04

  It's gonna come out of your mouth. Good. Thank you. All right.

• 12:04Bill Simmons?

  I need power forward. Is there a power forward from over the years?

• 12:06Speaker 04

  It's just like.

• 12:07Bill Simmons?

  Anyone? Maybe Rasheed Wallace when he didn't care?

• 12:09Speaker 04

  Well, no, it's that's Derek Coleman, right? Like it's, it's in that like.

• 12:12Bill Simmons?

  That's 90s though. I need this century.

• 12:14Speaker 04

  Okay, this century. Somebody who had Josh Smith. Did you worry? I mean.

• 12:18Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's a great one. Josh Smith. That's my fifth. I'm gonna write him down. James Harden, Dwight Howard, Steve Francis, Bradley Beal, and Josh Smith. That is an automatic calling the season ticket represent, representative and saying, I've decided not to renew my tickets. Can I give you another James Harden? Last five weeks, 24 points a game, eight assists a game. Solid.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  Good.

• 12:41Bill Simmons?

  38% field goal, 29% three pointers.

• 12:46Speaker 04

  Tough. It's tough.

• 12:48Bill Simmons?

  Older player, starts out hot, season goes along. Hmm. Now, if he's on the Cavs, you have to do less.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  I get the

• 12:57Bill Simmons?

  Mitchell has the ball a lot. I actually like the fit for him and the Cavs.

• 13:00Speaker 04

  Me too. So, so explain to me Garland and the Clippers, how that works? Because I get Harden and the Cavs and how that raises their ceiling. Um, and especially this run that they could go on if they could just, and maybe this, this little chemistry bit will, will be the, the tipping point for them. Help me understand Garland and the Clippers.

• 13:20Bill Simmons?

  10 years younger. I'll just put it this way. If I told you in July, when I don't remember, can't remember if the Clippers had signed James Harden yet. If I told you in July, there's really no market for James Harden other than one or two teams. He's going to sign a one-year deal and in six months, he's going to be traded straight up for Darius Garland. You, your answer would have been, no way. There's no way that's happening. Cleveland would never do that. Stop it. But I think Garland's stock has fallen a little bit. I think if you're the Clippers, it's a no-brainer. You have a chance to get a younger asset. His deal's not bad. It's got three years left. He's represented by the ringers, Rich Paul.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  Hey now.

• 14:02Bill Simmons?

  Now I'm all in.

• 14:03Speaker 04

  Listen to this.

• 14:04Bill Simmons?

  No, but I, I, I've always loved Garland. I've always wanted to see him with the car keys on his own, uh, team. And I actually like the fit with him and Kawhi and, and Zoo and, uh, I don't know. I, I, I don't think they're gonna, I don't think it's gonna hurt the team this season that much if he's playing. The problem is you're, you're rolling the dice on his feet. And I think, what did we say? He wears New Balances?

• 14:28Speaker 04

  Is that right? I don't know. I'll look at her picture and see what shoes he's in.

• 14:32Bill Simmons?

  When players continue to have problems with feet and ankles,

• 14:38Bill Simmons?

  to me, that's, that's less about the player, more about the equipment. Most famously, Grant Hill wearing the Phyllis is the worst example of this, but obviously he's got weird feet. I was talking before we came on, I have fat feet. It took me forever to realize I should wear the wide Nikes when I, when I walk for 15,000 a day.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  Nikes are narrow. The, Nike's are perfect for my feet.

• 14:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Nike's are narrow. My feet are fat and the Nike's would, would grind the sides of my feet and I would get blisters all over the place. I'd be like, oh, I have dumb feet. Why do I get so many blisters? It's like, because I'm wearing the wrong shoes, dumbass.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's your feet fault.

• 15:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 04

  It's not you.

• 15:13Bill Simmons?

  It's very fixable.

• 15:16Bill Simmons?

  Let me throw one other thing with Cleveland. Cause this will lead into the trade value thing that we're about to do. They are my, I still, I know there's a bunch of people who are like, Yanis isn't getting traded until this summer. That seems to be the consensus around the league.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  I'm one of them.

• 15:32Bill Simmons?

  I disagree because I think for a few teams, this is their chance to grab a Yanis trade before it gets to the summer. And the Knicks, Cleveland has a better way to do it. Some other teams, it would just be easier to make trades in the summer and go after them. Teams will be less happy with, you just, you, you're bringing more variables into it.

• 15:54Speaker 04

  But that's good for Milwaukee.

• 15:57Bill Simmons?

  It's good for Milwaukee, but it's also good for teams, you know, like a Cleveland. They're 13.8 over the second apron. When you're over the second apron, you can't package players to make trades. You can only trade one player out. Whatever you're getting back has to be less than that player or the trade's off. They're now, because of stupid Vivek and the Kings, once again, like doing something dumb to help out another team. The Kings trade for Deandre Hunter and they send back Keon Ellison Schroder. It saves, saves the Cavs. Uh oh.

• 16:34Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 16:35Bill Simmons?

  We just got breaking news.

• 16:36Speaker 04

  This is better than the trade deadline show.

• 16:39Bill Simmons?

  This is the best, I'm having a great time.

• 16:41Speaker 04

  We better start doing this show on Tuesdays. 30, this is the new thing.

• 16:47Bill Simmons?

  So Jaren Jackson has been traded to the, Jaren Jackson's been traded to the Utah Jazz. What's the trade?

• 16:58Speaker 04

  Marketing has to be involved, right?

• 17:00Bill Simmons?

  We might have to get Zach Lowe to come on this.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  Great, let's do it.

• 17:03Bill Simmons?

  You should just text Zach if he's available, he should just pop on.

• 17:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:08Bill Simmons?

  Holy mackerel. So what was the trade?

• 17:11Speaker 04

  Marketing has to be involved, right?

• 17:15Bill Simmons?

  Does he? I mean, they could do, keep marketing, they have expirings and just traded a bunch of their picks.

• 17:20Speaker 04

  What, what is Memphis doing? Memphis is, this is the, the, the full rebuild. So Morant, they'll, they'll get a bag of Cheetos from Morant now.

• 17:28Bill Simmons?

  So Jaren Jackson's 35 million this year. Extension kicking in next year, five years for 205 million.

• 17:35Speaker 04

  It's fair.

• 17:36Bill Simmons?

  Five years is also the number of rebounds per game he averages.

• 17:39Speaker 04

  You, you, you really, uh, obsess over the number of rebounds that Triple J gets.

• 17:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause you didn't rebound. You weren't a great rebounder. You were, you were always.

• 17:48Speaker 04

  I'm a perimeter player.

• 17:50Bill Simmons?

  That's what Jared Jackson said. It's like, yo, can you grab some rebounds?

• 17:54Speaker 04

  Me and Triple J.

• 17:56Bill Simmons?

  Uh, back to Cleveland. We'll find out what this trade was, but back to Cleveland for a second. So they gotta get 13.8 million under the second apron. There's a bunch of teams with exceptions. They have Lonzo 10 million expiring, Max Struce at 15, Keon Ellis at 2.3, they can get rid of some. So they can actually get under the apron before Thursday, which would allow them to then do a Mobley and other stuff for Giannis and Kuzma, whatever it takes. Would you trade Mobley for Giannis?

• 18:23Speaker 04

  Maybe. Here's, here's my reservation and here is why I think we're waiting until the summer. Tell me the truth about, um, Giannis' calf. Tell me the truth.

• 18:37Bill Simmons?

  The truth? It's, it seems to get, it seems to get tweaked a lot.

• 18:42Speaker 04

  A lot. This is the problem. Is he gonna play in the playoffs this upcoming season?

• 18:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, he's not gonna be in the playoffs. Oh, here we go. Here's the trade. Jaren Jackson, John Conchar, Jacque Landell, Vince Williams Jr. I kinda like him. For Walter Clayton Jr., Kyle Anderson, Taylor Hendricks, George Niang and three future first round picks, which I'm guess are, guessing are unprotected.

• 19:10Speaker 04

  Wait, did you say Kessler?

• 19:13Bill Simmons?

  Uh, no, I said.

• 19:15Speaker 04

  You did not.

• 19:16Bill Simmons?

  I did not. Well, he's out for the year.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  So?

• 19:21Bill Simmons?

  Now that's interesting swing for Utah. I don't know if I love Jaren Jackson at 50 million a year, but that's just me.

• 19:27Speaker 04

  Jaren, that means they have a very strong conviction about Jaren Jackson and Laurie Markkinen playing together.

• 19:32Bill Simmons?

  Do like that combo.

• 19:33Speaker 04

  That's pretty interesting.

• 19:35Bill Simmons?

  Who's rebounding on that team?

• 19:36Speaker 04

  Kessler, when he comes back next year. That's what I just asked.

• 19:39Bill Simmons?

  The thing with Jaren Jackson is like, he's a really good rim protecting center, but he needs to play next to a center.

• 19:45Speaker 04

  So, so something about-

• 19:46Bill Simmons?

  But I thought he was the center.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  Something about Keonte George pushed them in this direction.

• 19:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 04

  Right? There's something-

• 19:54Bill Simmons?

  It pushed Keonte George in a trade value, uh, direction too.

• 19:58Speaker 04

  Well, well, well placed.

• 20:01Bill Simmons?

  So Memphis, they trade Jaren Jackson, they get picks back. Last summer, they trade Desmond Bain. What, they get four firsts for him?

• 20:08Speaker 04

  A whole bunch of picks, yes.

• 20:10Bill Simmons?

  And now they're gonna try to stick Ja Morant on Vivek, which they'll probably succeed in doing. And that's just a full reboot for a team that I think the furthest they got was round two. And ironically, the guy they couldn't wait to get rid of first turned out to be the culture guy on their team, Dillon Brooks. Everybody was like, this guy's so immature. What's wrong with this guy?

• 20:32Speaker 04

  In fairness to the team.

• 20:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  He was, I'll just use the, the word, somewhat erratic. Not completely erratic.

• 20:40Bill Simmons?

  No, he was erratic.

• 20:41Speaker 04

  He was pretty erratic.

• 20:42Bill Simmons?

  Nobody was like, wow, I can't believe they decided to move on from Dillon Brooks. Like he, he, but I think he's matured.

• 20:48Speaker 04

  He kind of dared them to.

• 20:50Bill Simmons?

  And he's a, uh, he's turned it into being a really good, I, like, culture setter for Phoenix. Like, if you look at Phoenix's team, we're doing trade value. I think we only have one, we have two sons, Booker and Brooks.

• 21:05Speaker 04

  They didn't know-

• 21:05Bill Simmons?

  Out of the entire list.

• 21:06Speaker 04

  He didn't know. Somebody didn't know what kind of leader he could be. Maybe this was the, the, the problem all along. Nobody ever gave him the car keys. Let Dillon cook.

• 21:19Bill Simmons?

  That's what, see, that's what was making him crazy. Nobody would give him the car keys. It's like me at ESPN.

• 21:28Bill Simmons?

  So the difference with this Jackson trade, and when you were in a similar situation in DC with Bradley Beal.

• 21:35Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 21:37Bill Simmons?

  Is they moved fast to trade even before the extension kicked in to get the first round picks back.

• 21:42Speaker 04

  How much are we allowed to curse on this show?

• 21:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, the whiz gave Bradley Beal the extension and people were like, that's where Jaren Jackson, the extension was much more defensible.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  The extension wasn't the problem. I can curse, right?

• 21:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 04

  It was the fucking no trade clause. It was the motherfucking no trade clause. That was the problem. Giving him the car keys over whatever preferred destination he wanted and having to kowtow to a player that made one third team, all NBA team, once in his entire career. It gave him the benefit of that super extension. It only took one time under the previous collective bargaining agreement, so they had to pay him. Good God, I'm over it. I'm over it. I'm sorry. Let me take it down a notch.

• 22:36Bill Simmons?

  We're going to talk about this Super Bowl for one second and then we're going to do the trade value.

• 22:39Speaker 04

  Great.

• 22:40Bill Simmons?

  And the Super Bowl moment is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. It is now Tuesday. I've spent the last 48 hours studying all Drake May's shoulder footage, including him saying on the podium last night that he feels really good and it's turned the corner. He was carrying his bag coming off the plane. Just his demeanor, his shoulders didn't seem lopsided. I'm feeling good, House.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  Do you think it was the compression in the, in the plane, you know, the air in there is different? Maybe that's what, what helped. He said he got off the plane and immediately felt better.

• 23:11Bill Simmons?

  Maybe his wonderful wife, the queen of the north, was just giving him some shoulder massages and working out the kinks in the back.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  I don't think she's allowed.

• 23:17Bill Simmons?

  That's what we call her now, the queen of the north.

• 23:19Speaker 04

  She allowed on the plane?

• 23:21Bill Simmons?

  I think they have their own, they have a family plan.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 23:24Bill Simmons?

  The line has not moved. Were you surprised the line has not moved at all?

• 23:27Speaker 04

  No, that tells us.

• 23:28Bill Simmons?

  We're just at four and a half.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  That tells us the story. If he was hurt, line would have moved. It would have moved Sunday. It hasn't moved.

• 23:37Bill Simmons?

  So Thursday, I'm doing a trade deadline special live with Zach Lowe on Netflix. We are going to record a Super Bowl segment with our picks. That's going to run at the end of that.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  You and I?

• 23:49Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna, yeah, we're gonna do that either Wednesday. We'll record it tomorrow. I'd rather get it closer to the game as possible. Cause if there's footage of Drake May just throwing ducks and wobblers, maybe that'll affect the line. Who knows? Anyway, that is the Super Bowl brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Let's do it. And well, once we get more info on that Jaren Jackson trade, we'll pop in, but the trade value.

• 24:10Speaker 04

  I mean, this is the trade deadline show.

• 24:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah. It turned into like a borderline.

• 24:15Speaker 04

  So happy.

• 24:16Bill Simmons?

  So for the people who, who don't know, I've been doing this trade value gimmick since I had my old website before I got to ESPN. And the concept is ranking the players from however, the highest number is to one based on who is the most untradeable player in the league. And we've been doing that. I started writing this as a column. When I got my podcast in oh seven, we started doing the annual podcast every year to try, you helped me figure out the list. You're my list conciliary, my trade value conciliary. Have you put that on resume? Put it on your LinkedIn. Trade value conciliary, 2007 to 2026. Here are the rules. Trade value. It's really important. We follow these rules. Rule number one, salaries matter.

• 25:02Bill Simmons?

  Which matters more than ever in this goofy apron era we're in. The apron is terrifying to everybody. Rule number two, age matters. So this is like a James Harden, Darius Garland thing. Darius Garland's 26, James Harden's 36. Which guy would you rather want to have? Contract link matters. This mattered more in the 2000s when we had guys getting seven year deals. Remember that era? You had a couple of bad ones. I think you're still paying Gilbert Arenas.

• 25:27Speaker 04

  Probably.

• 25:28Bill Simmons?

  Contract think matters. Rule number four, happiness matters. So does durability.

• 25:36Bill Simmons?

  Conflicting for James Harden fans here. Durable guy, many times unhappy. We've seen this multiple times in the know. Rule number five, bizarre real life trade should affect the list. So if you think somebody has this trade asset and they were given away for 30 cents on the dollar, AKA Trey Young. That was like 20 cents a dollar. Whoa. But I'm saying like Trey Young's a good example. That trade, that trade told us what his trade value was.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  There's no example that will ever surpass Luca. I mean, it will have to like forever cope with that.

• 26:12Bill Simmons?

  So you think that affects the list? Or is that like an outlier?

• 26:15Speaker 04

  It affects the concept. It is the all time outlier. It is the.

• 26:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, see, I think that's an outlier. I don't think. I think that was a unique once in a lifetime event.

• 26:24Speaker 04

  To its knees because one first round draft pick. And it was infinitely, permanently hurt.

• 26:31Bill Simmons?

  But a lot of Max Christie moving right now. Uh, and then rule number six, concentrate on degrees. And we're going to talk about this over and over again. Two guys that are close together. And basically, and this is one of the things House says as my trade value conciliary. I call you and I say, you're Utah and I'm the Pelicans. And I call you and I say, what about Trey Murphy for Lori Markkinen? Straight up. Which side deliberates longer, has a longer meeting? If somebody's like, no way we're doing that. And it hangs up, that guy, that means that side probably has more trade value. So you just have to think about it in that context.

• 27:11Bill Simmons?

  Degrees of, obviously, you know, Wemby's not getting traded for Jokic. But if San Antonio and Denver had that phone call, how does it unfold? Who's more likely to say, that's ridiculous. We're not doing that. Or Denver going, we can't do that. Jokic is our guy. But Wemby's available and they're going to actually trade him? Probably a longer meeting on the Denver side, right?

• 27:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:36Bill Simmons?

  Joker's older. So anyway, that's, that's the thing. Okay.

• 27:41Bill Simmons?

  We have a top 80 this year, House. It's the biggest list we've ever had, I think. You remember the days in the late 2000s when we had 40 guys? We could barely get to 40. We had to pad it with like Chris Kaman. Guys that missed the cut, just quickly. Zachary Rissachay, Josh Hart, Tyler Hero, Naz Reid, Michael Porter Jr., Cam Johnson. Any of those names surprise you so far?

• 28:06Speaker 04

  Kind of Michael Porter Jr. Cause he seems fit to be traded and he seems to be in a position where he could actually fetch decent assets.

• 28:16Bill Simmons?

  40 million this year, 37 next year. And has not played defense, I don't think, since 11th grade.

• 28:23Speaker 04

  Right team, right situation.

• 28:25Bill Simmons?

  Okay. All right. So that's your first. He's gonna stay there. Cam Johnson. Demontes Sabonis really surprised me. He didn't even make the toughest omissions list, but just had this huge extension kicked in. The advanced metrics are terrible for him and his team seems to lose when he plays. And he's older. I don't, I don't see a case for him.

• 28:44Speaker 04

  I would say free Sabonis. I'd love to see him play on a decent team where we could. I mean, remember the double double machine he was as recently as like last year? I mean, he can, he could definitely play and he can definitely be a winning basketball player in the right circumstance. This unfortunately is not it.

• 29:02Bill Simmons?

  Jared Allen, who would have made the list last year and probably did, but has this big 30 million a year extension kicking in next year. And I think Cleveland would probably be delighted to get off of that and get a cheaper big man. Agor, Demon.

• 29:17Speaker 04

  You did it.

• 29:18Bill Simmons?

  I screwed that up. No, I know it's Agor. I can't remember Demon. I always call him Agor.

• 29:22Speaker 04

  You could call him Demon.

• 29:22Bill Simmons?

  I'm actually, I like him a little more than I did when I saw him in person. But he, there's maybe something there. We'll see. Herb Jones, Aaron Neesmith, Khalil Ware, who doesn't really play anymore. And I also think could have been on this list a month ago.

• 29:36Speaker 04

  So what is weird is, you know, he and Kaminga, two guys who came in with all of the like, oh, wow, there's, there could be something here. They, these guys could grow into, into players. Ware drafted much further back than Kaminga.

• 29:52Bill Simmons?

  Right. No, Ware was in the middle of the lottery, basically.

• 29:55Speaker 04

  Right.

• 29:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So what's your point?

• 29:58Speaker 04

  Um, just the, the weird falling out of favor with coaches that we trust. We, we tend to trust, trust, uh, um, Spoelstra and we tend to, to trust, um.

• 30:12Bill Simmons?

  Right. Maybe it's a tough love approach.

• 30:16Speaker 04

  Didn't really work with Kaminga.

• 30:18Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 30:18Speaker 04

  Is it, I think it's gonna work.

• 30:19Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna say it did not work with Kaminga. I'm gonna say it decidedly did not work. Isaiah Hartenstein's on here. He's paid a lot. He's like 29 million. And I think it's a team option next year so they can grab it.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  Worth every penny.

• 30:33Bill Simmons?

  I like him, but I'm just saying like that's.

• 30:35Speaker 04

  They won the title because of him.

• 30:37Bill Simmons?

  But the center position, I think teams are usually looking for that 15 to 20 million range, not 30. Miles Bridges, Christian Braun, Shaden Sharp, my guy Scoot Henderson. I'll still buy all your stock. I know, I know the stock for Scoot is, is lower, but, uh, it is what it is. Kobe White. He's on his last year of his deal and probably getting paid next year. So that's why he's not in there. Okay. Toughest omissions. So we have 12 guys for this list.

• 31:06Bill Simmons?

  The first one is a wizard.

• 31:09Speaker 04

  Let me tell you.

• 31:09Bill Simmons?

  Keishon George.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  Keishon George. Yeah.

• 31:12Bill Simmons?

  Keishon George. I call him Keishon George. Keishon George. I don't think I've watched a Wizards game with the announcers. I just see them on the bottom left TV and I have no idea how to pronounce any of their names.

• 31:22Speaker 04

  Respectfully, uh, it's hit or miss with the, with the local broadcast group. But I will say this, this dude can flat out play. He can absolutely, he could be a scorer.

• 31:31Bill Simmons?

  Hit some threes?

• 31:32Speaker 04

  He can definitely hit threes. He's tough. He's super young and he's not yet reached the full potential of how strong he's, he can be. And when that comes in, he, it's, he's going to be a force. He, he absolutely. You know, they, they, when they want to win games, he's on the floor in the fourth quarter and he makes good decisions.

• 31:52Bill Simmons?

  Nikhil Alexander Walker.

• 31:54Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 31:54Bill Simmons?

  Who has been a great signing for Atlanta and is averaging almost 20 a game. Devin Vassell on San Antonio, a little pricey. He's like around 27. Alex Caruso, great glue guy, um, little older, 32. He's got a new deal. It's, it's like 20 million a year for a few more years, but I, I've found it hard to believe he couldn't crack the list. Jalen Suggs, who I really like, and so do you, but, uh, fatter contract now and doesn't seem to be able to play more than 10 straight games.

• 32:23Speaker 04

  That's a, we don't like that.

• 32:26Bill Simmons?

  First rando, Collin Murray-Boiles. You wear his work in Toronto?

• 32:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's an elemental part of their success. He's part of the overall depth that that team has that makes this version of them successful. He can play. They wouldn't trade him.

• 32:44Bill Simmons?

  Really, really elite, elite, elite defensive shit going on with him.

• 32:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:50Bill Simmons?

  And just the kind of guy you need and he's on a rookie contract. I put Luke Cornet on the list.

• 32:55Speaker 04

  No, that's just you. You did that.

• 32:57Bill Simmons?

  He's 10 million a year. Would you rather pay Luke Cornet 10 million a year or Jared Allen 30?

• 33:04Speaker 04

  You had the chance. I mean, I guess you couldn't figure it out in Boston how to keep him.

• 33:10Bill Simmons?

  Well, they didn't want to spend the money. Jabari Smith, I'm just going to go down on the ship with. I just like him. I think he's kind of criminally misused on this team because they have so many assets and they just kind of tell him to stand in the corner. I think there's so much more there.

• 33:25Speaker 04

  I don't like it.

• 33:25Bill Simmons?

  If I was a GM, I'd be trying to trade for him constantly.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  If they don't do anything by the end of the day Thursday, I am jumping into their win, regular wins market. The season total, it's 53 and a half right now and I am hammering the under. I am going to buy so much under on the Rockets at 53 and a half if they don't do anything on the trade deadline.

• 33:51Bill Simmons?

  I watched them play Indiana last night. There wasn't a lot of basketball on last night. It just feels like everything's a grind with them now that they don't have that. They had that Steven Adams offensive rebounding wrinkle that made them invincible sometimes. And now they don't have it and they feel gettable every game.

• 34:10Speaker 04

  Their fourth quarters are not good.

• 34:13Bill Simmons?

  So their regular season wins now?

• 34:17Bill Simmons?

  It's still, oh, it's 53 and a half now.

• 34:19Speaker 04

  That's what I mean.

• 34:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 34:21Speaker 04

  If it stays there at the trade deadline, I am buying a big chunk of under.

• 34:27Bill Simmons?

  Could I interest you at all in Utah 24 and a half for an over/under?

• 34:31Speaker 04

  I think they're gonna go over.

• 34:33Bill Simmons?

  Right now, they are.

• 34:35Speaker 04

  Well, it's not, can you still?

• 34:36Bill Simmons?

  They're 15 and 35 now. There's 32 games left, so they'd have to go nine and 10 and 10 and 22 to hit it?

• 34:46Speaker 04

  How many games is Triple J gonna play?

• 34:48Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Do they, did they ice him?

• 34:51Speaker 04

  They are, they, they will ice somebody in a heartbeat. I mean, the things they come up with.

• 34:55Bill Simmons?

  That's a fun team for him to go to, by the way.

• 34:57Speaker 04

  Well, I'd love him getting.

• 34:58Bill Simmons?

  When Kessler comes back with marketing, if they get anything from Ace Bayley, they have a point guard, they have cap space and draft picks to get more stuff. Like, I don't mind that.

• 35:06Speaker 04

  Will Hardy.

• 35:06Bill Simmons?

  I'm talking myself into that trade.

• 35:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:09Bill Simmons?

  We'll see if the picks are unprotected, because I want to see if the picks are unprotected. If they're unprotected, that would make me a little more nervous. Um, okay.

• 35:18Bill Simmons?

  Moussa Diabate on the Hornets.

• 35:22Speaker 04

  I know.

• 35:22Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if you're familiar with his work lately, but there's like, in some of the most insane plus minus stats of five man lineups and eye test, too.

• 35:30Speaker 04

  Yes, that's a.

• 35:31Bill Simmons?

  Just exactly kind of what they needed. Hugo Gonzalez, who has the best plus minus, I think, of any rookie in the last five years, and is only like six months older than my son and comes in and swings games and is an absolute man and a maniac, and I love him. And if they ended up somehow out of nowhere doing a Yanis trade and he was in it, I'd be bummed out. And then I'd be like, Yanis is on the team. I'll get over it. Uh, Tumani Kamara.

• 35:58Bill Simmons?

  And Trey Johnson is our last toughest omission. I put him on there for you.

• 36:03Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 36:05Bill Simmons?

  Do you think Trey Johnson had a case to be in the top 80?

• 36:08Speaker 04

  No, not yet. He might get there. He can shoot. Um, he works super hard, perfect character guy. Let's see this rising stars thing. I want to see how he is, you know, playing with, with his peers.

• 36:20Bill Simmons?

  That's the first time that sentence has ever been said. Okay.

• 36:23Speaker 04

  I'm still learning my team.

• 36:25Bill Simmons?

  Top 80, we separate them into tiers.

• 36:29Bill Simmons?

  Going from 80 to 1 in Group O. It's going by letters. We, I don't remember us getting to O before. O was, O was a lot. Jesus.

• 36:39Speaker 04

  It's a lot of guys.

• 36:40Bill Simmons?

  Group O is called Grab Your Stock Now, and it's all cheap guys. It's number 80, Anthony Black, 79, Ace Bailey, number 78, Peyton Watson.

• 36:50Speaker 04

  Look at you.

• 36:51Bill Simmons?

  Jumping in out of nowhere and is an RFA, so they're actually gonna have to pay him this summer. Tari Eason, who I'm never gonna give up on, and it's actually been playing. Modest Bazellus and, uh, and Donovan Klingon at 75. So Black, Bailey, Watson, Eason, Bazellus, and Klingon. Who's your favorite out of all those guys?

• 37:11Speaker 04

  It's Eason, and I tried to come up with a case to, to push him further up, that he would fetch more in value than, than where he is right now. I couldn't get there, and...

• 37:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the league's too deep.

• 37:25Speaker 04

  And, and, you know, again, um, he is one of the guys on, on Houston when there's, you know, seven minutes left and their, their opponent is closing the gap, closing the gap, closing the gap.

• 37:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 37:37Speaker 04

  He, he, he, on the offensive end, he's not doing anything to help stave that off.

• 37:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think that's a good point. I will say all six of these guys I really like for different reasons.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:48Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what Bailey is, but he's clearly, there's something there. I have no idea what's there, but something's there. Black's been playing really well recently, like the last five weeks. Watson's been a revelation since Jerker went out, and I, I'm still in on Bazellus. I like him. I like his game. Um, he's so young.

• 38:06Speaker 04

  Why do you say it that way? Still in? Why would you be out?

• 38:09Bill Simmons?

  Sometimes it seems like the Bulls aren't in on him. There's games where he was, he'll just like disappear from the game.

• 38:13Speaker 04

  Well, you just can't, I don't think we can take any, um, draw any inferences from anything the Bulls do.

• 38:19Bill Simmons?

  That's very fair. And then Klingon is just a badass.

• 38:24Bill Simmons?

  He really is like he he killed the Celtics last month like really like kind of destroyed them and took the game over.

• 38:31Speaker 04

  So Portland and Washington played and there is definitely last week, there is some kind of rivalry thing between him and Sar. And they were talking and Keyshawn George was really the the animating force. They were talking so much shit to Klingon the whole game and they it was physical. I couldn't have enjoyed it more and Denny, you know, Denny Abdi is motivated.

• 38:53Bill Simmons?

  Former whiz.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  To the former whiz. Yeah, it was a really fun game. Washington, Portland, super underrated.

• 38:59Bill Simmons?

  Klingon's really competitive and kind of kind of talks his shit a little bit.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  Sure does.

• 39:05Bill Simmons?

  And tries to intimidate. I really like him. I think he's good. I I almost wanted to put him. Uh, like 15 spots higher next to Alex Sar and that group, but I couldn't quite get there because I'm not sure about the health of them. Okay, next group. So those are all rookie contract guys, which are the easiest, you know, best commodities, especially in the apron era.

• 39:25Bill Simmons?

  Next group is group and valuable assets on okay contracts. These aren't bad contracts. They're not great.

• 39:34Bill Simmons?

  Number 74 Dyson Daniels. He just signed an extension for four for 100. I liked him more last year and I've watched a lot of Hawks. I have some overs with them and there's just they've never been able to put their shit together and it doesn't feel like he's better than he was last year, which I would have assumed he would be better than he was last year, but he's not.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  We've been on the wrong side of the Hawks.

• 39:57Bill Simmons?

  Every year.

• 39:58Speaker 04

  What feels like.

• 39:59Bill Simmons?

  They're like the Steelers for us in NFL for basketball. Anyway, I can't give up on him because he's too good of a to his his hands on defense are just unlike anything. James Harden, number 73, 39 million this year, 42 million dollar player option. And I got to be honest, he wasn't on this list until two days ago when the Garland stuff started because that I think made both of us realize, oh yeah, I guess he still has the value because of the stats. So he's there. Brandon Ingram, number 72. He's on a three for 120 deal.

• 40:32Bill Simmons?

  Still can't believe my guy Rich Paul pulled that one off.

• 40:37Speaker 04

  He helped stabilize Toronto.

• 40:39Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable, unbelievable contract though.

• 40:41Speaker 04

  Toronto's gonna get, you know, like a, like a five seed, six seed in the East.

• 40:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we'll see.

• 40:47Speaker 04

  They're competitive.

• 40:49Bill Simmons?

  Mikal Bridges, number 71. He is 24 million this year and then it kicks into a 4 million, 150, $50 million extension. I, I mean, he's kind of taking the hits on this team. Doesn't have the ball a ton. Their defense has been really good for the last two weeks and all the Knicks fans I know are like, shit's happening. Mike Brown finally figured it out. They're not playing Clarkson.

• 41:13Bill Simmons?

  And he's a piece of that, but this feels to rate the right range for him, right?

• 41:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, he, he's, he's tough to know what exactly to do with. Cause there is.

• 41:23Bill Simmons?

  Because like on the Wizards, he'd probably have the ball a lot more and be more fun to watch and.

• 41:27Speaker 04

  He also really could be, um, he's so tough. He could be, you know, that enforcer kind of role for a team that wants to play physical. Like if he was on Houston, um, I think he could be an absolute force for them.

• 41:44Bill Simmons?

  Norm Powell is number 70. Interesting one because he's 20 million this year and then he's a free agent. And I, I don't know whether that helps or hurts trade value. I feel like it probably hurts.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  How old is Norm Powell now? This is the, the.

• 41:56Bill Simmons?

  I think, yeah, I'm gonna say he's like 33 or 34.

• 41:59Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 41:59Bill Simmons?

  33? Why do you ask?

• 42:01Speaker 04

  Well, because he, um, by the numbers is having a better shooting season for the Heat than he did last year for the Clippers and the Clippers really missed him at the beginning of the season. I think that was the one ingredient, more than any other ingredient that led to them only winning four games.

• 42:18Bill Simmons?

  John Collins has been, yeah, John Collins has been okay now, but.

• 42:22Speaker 04

  Now.

• 42:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  Like in the first 25 games, the Clippers were a disaster and I think a big part of that was because they missed Norm Powell and Norm Powell has been good. He's, he scored well.

• 42:32Bill Simmons?

  You're right. He's 33 next year. Josh Giddy's number 69. He's four for 100. Right contract for him, right team. I'm not sure if you're trying to win a title. I'm not sure what number in the pecking order is, but he's probably fourth, I would say. You probably have to have three guys better than him on the team to win a title.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  Three, yeah, two or, two or three guys. Yeah.

• 42:52Bill Simmons?

  Desmond Bay, number 68. He's five year, 197 million dollar deal. So I'm dinging him for that. That's pretty pricey.

• 43:03Bill Simmons?

  Rudy Gobert, number 67. Reid did his deal. It's now 3 for 109. There's just not a lot of him. And I'd rather have him than Jared Allen if we're paying roughly around the same money. Jaden McDaniels, 4 for 108. He's number 66. Darius Garland, number 65, 3 for 126. Interesting that he's 65. Harden is 73, and yet they're being traded straight up. Obviously, I can't tell teams what to do, but that's how I have them ranked. And then Lou Dort is number 64. He's 18 this year, 18 next year. And House just signed with Clutch.

• 43:38Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 43:39Bill Simmons?

  So OKC is the team option for him next year at 18, but now he's with Clutch. I think Lou Dort is a... I'm not saying they're going to trade him in the next two days, but you have to think about it if you're Presti, because you're not going to pay him. You're paying three max guys, basically. You're not going to pay Lou Dort 30 million a year. You have Kason Wallace, who can probably take some of his minutes. So I'm just, if OKC did something, I think he's involved, right?

• 44:03Speaker 04

  Makes perfect sense. And this is exactly, it was either this trade deadline or this coming summer when folks anticipated that he would, he would have to go. I mean, that's the sacrifice the team's going to have to make. And it's, it's fair. He helped them win a ring. That was awesome.

• 44:17Bill Simmons?

  They won a ring. He did his job.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  He did his job.

• 44:19Bill Simmons?

  Everything else is gravy. So Group N, Daniels, Harden, Ingram, Bridges, Powell, Giddy, Bain, Gobert, McDaniels, Garland, and Lou Dort. That's from 74 to 64. I'll do, we're going to take a break, but I got one more quick group. Ah, no, let's save it. The group's called Valuable Assets on Horrific Contracts, and we're going to do it right after this break. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Last call for football. Sad. FanDuel is giving you a daily profit boost every single day leading up to Super Bowl 60. Today's 30% profit boost is on over/under an alternate rushing yard props. Check back each day for a new daily boost because FanDuel is giving everyone something

• 45:04Bill Simmons?

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• 45:49Bill Simmons?

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• 46:19Bill Simmons?

  All right. For next is get group. We have some Jaren Jackson stuff that we found out about the trade. Thanks to the reporter, Shams Shirania and Bobby Marks as well. Two things I want to point out. One, Shams says the Grizzlies now have a $28.8 million trade exception that they've created in this deal.

• 46:42Speaker 04

  Oh, interesting.

• 46:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 46:46Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 46:48Bill Simmons?

  You know who makes 27.5 million?

• 46:50Speaker 04

  Who?

• 46:51Bill Simmons?

  Anthony Simons.

• 46:56Speaker 04

  Congrats.

• 46:57Bill Simmons?

  If the Celtics just wanted to get under the tax and punt on this year, I have a chance.

• 47:02Speaker 04

  You have no chance.

• 47:04Bill Simmons?

  Bunch of other players too that could fit into that. So they become, so if Cleveland wanted to.

• 47:10Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Will you take Lonzo Ball and Max Druce from us? And we'll do two swaps with you and whatever, and then they can get under the and go for Yanis. So the Grizzlies, who we didn't even know were going to factor into this trade deadline, now a huge factor.

• 47:28Bill Simmons?

  Bobby Marks also says Memphis now has 13 firsts over the next seven years.

• 47:32Speaker 04

  Yes, they do.

• 47:33Bill Simmons?

  And we still don't know exactly what the firsts are, unfortunately.

• 47:38Bill Simmons?

  But I assume they're unprotected.

• 47:39Speaker 04

  They're not in the Yanis market, right?

• 47:42Bill Simmons?

  Utah?

• 47:43Speaker 04

  No, Memphis.

• 47:45Bill Simmons?

  Memphis. No, why would he want to go there?

• 47:47Speaker 04

  Well, does he really have a choice? Doesn't have a no trade.

• 47:52Bill Simmons?

  You follow the NBA. What do you mean?

• 47:53Speaker 04

  They had that to persuade him.

• 47:55Bill Simmons?

  Teams just don't send people to teams like that. That's just why.

• 47:57Speaker 04

  I understand. They would offer him the extension.

• 48:00Bill Simmons?

  He's not going to Memphis. Stop at house. Is that, you know where else he's not going? Washington.

• 48:05Speaker 04

  I never thought about it.

• 48:07Bill Simmons?

  Group M valuable assets on horrific contracts. There's three people here. Karl-Anthony Towns, Anthony Davis, and Joel Embiid from 63, 62 to 61. Embiid is four for 243. Davis is a max guy with an extension possibly coming, and then Towns gets into the 60s after a couple of years. Kudos to Embiid for working his way back in the trade value list. I think the odds were like 30 to one five weeks ago, right?

• 48:35Speaker 04

  It is bizarre, the kind of luck that Philadelphia has fallen into here. Because going into this season, you know, and I won't express it purely in terms of win totals, but they were a just throw up your hands, what the hell could they possibly be team?

• 48:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we said they had no ceiling and no floor.

• 48:59Speaker 04

  What's the best case scenario? Well, it turns out BJ Edgecombe can immediately come in and form a backcourt with Maxey that looks like one of the best backcourts in the entire NBA. You know, in the mix, top five backcourt and make them competitive in an East that's up for grabs. So that all they need out of it. Embiid is like 15 to 20 minutes. And then it turns out that that 15 to 20 minutes that they're asking for from him coincides with him. He's in great shape, like his, his body is in, you know, in terms of the overall size. He's not carrying around the extra weight. Now he moves crazy slow and, and you know, the lateral movement.

• 49:40Bill Simmons?

  Don't forget about how he has one leg that works.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  But holy shit, is he an efficient shooter? Holy mother of God.

• 49:48Bill Simmons?

  That's what legs said last week.

• 49:49Speaker 04

  22 minutes and have 40 points.

• 49:52Bill Simmons?

  He's one of the best pure shooters in recent league history now. Every shot just goes in. When it hits the rim and goes out, you're shocked. You know, obviously it's a 20 game sample size where he's been healthy. I hope it stays. I'd rather have more good basketball players than less. I just, you know, anytime he falls down, you think the worst, right? He's just, I guess that's just who he's going to be for the rest of his career. But I thought at the start of the season that this was inconceivable. He does have Drew Hanlon talking a lot of shit on Twitter, which he should squash.

• 50:25Bill Simmons?

  Drew Hanlon, his shooting coach, just, he's doing a lot of chirping. It's like, let's see him be play 50 games in a year before, before the chirping starts. Like just, I, I, this is like talking.

• 50:35Speaker 04

  Victory lap yet.

• 50:36Bill Simmons?

  It's like talking during the no hitter, Drew Hanlon. He's like yelling at the ringer. We had him 31st in the ringer 100. Drew Hanlon's like, oh my God. It's like, the dude hasn't played 40 games since 2023. Where do you want us to rank them? So let's see him get to 50 games and Drew Hanlon should mute himself.

• 50:53Speaker 04

  I wondered if we were going to get a combo deal with the Paul George that, that Joel Embiid and Paul George together shared whatever substance so that we get them 25 games closer to the playoffs. So that they're both healthy coming into the playoffs.

• 51:10Bill Simmons?

  That's interesting, a fake, a fake jet, then they just pay him under the table.

• 51:14Speaker 04

  He could just take whatever the thing is. He could have taken it.

• 51:16Bill Simmons?

  What is that? Paul George did not make the trade value list.

• 51:21Bill Simmons?

  So Towns 63, Davis 62, Embiid 61. If the Knicks offered Karl Anthony Towns to the Sixers for Joel Embiid. I think the Sixers would say no, right?

• 51:36Bill Simmons?

  This is official trade value. Yeah, I think they say no, right?

• 51:40Speaker 04

  I don't know. How many years are left on that MB extension?

• 51:44Bill Simmons?

  He's four for 243 right now. This is year one. Towns has three left and it's like over, over 180. I can't even remember. It's, it's not great.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  Towns is a better bargain.

• 51:58Bill Simmons?

  No, he's, he's really not. I'll read you the numbers.

• 52:00Speaker 04

  What's last years?

• 52:02Bill Simmons?

  No, it's not. Cause it goes, oh yeah, it's one less year, but it's 53, 57, 61.

• 52:10Speaker 04

  Okay. Yeah. What's Joel?

• 52:11Bill Simmons?

  One less year. So you think Towns should be above Joel? Cause I can, this is why you're the conciliary.

• 52:17Speaker 04

  They're in the group. I mean, I, I think the, all three make sense. It's funny because we have tons of trade rumors about Carl Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis. You know, those two teams trying to find, this is the reporting that's out there and it's been out there for a while. You know, the weird chemistry of towns with this Knicks team with Mike Brown's offense, you know, trying to find his place. And Davis was gonna go to Atlanta by all indications.

• 52:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And then he had his 14th injury in the last nine years.

• 52:46Speaker 04

  Yes, exactly. Defense wins championships.

• 52:50Bill Simmons?

  All right. Now we're hitting a really fun stretch here. This is group L. We're not even in the top 10 letters yet. Group out valuable assets on great contracts. Number 60. Your guy. Alex Sar.

• 53:07Speaker 04

  Could definitely play. The whiz did not miss with that number two pick overall.

• 53:11Bill Simmons?

  So in a redraft. Is he above castle or no?

• 53:17Speaker 04

  It depends on the team drafting. If it's, is, is Atlanta?

• 53:20Bill Simmons?

  I still have castle above him, but I think, I like Sar. I think Sar is a legit guy.

• 53:24Speaker 04

  Yeah. If Atlanta's drafting number one, I think that they might've taken, it would have accelerated what they had to do with Trey Young if they took castle. Right? You, I don't know if that's a thing that they, they could have coexisted.

• 53:38Bill Simmons?

  So you're in, so out of like, all right, let's say since we graduated college. Young guys, the Wizards have had. So I'm gonna say 22 and under guys, the Wizards have had. Has anyone been better than him? Cause you gotta read this a little bit later. Was John Wall better than him?

• 53:56Speaker 04

  He was pretty effing good.

• 53:58Bill Simmons?

  Was Beal better than him? Young Beal? Young Beal was great.

• 54:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, Young Beal was on an arc where the thing is, both those guys arrived in the NBA, I think a little bit older than Sar. I think Sar is still a little bit younger.

• 54:12Bill Simmons?

  I thought he was 20. So he has three things that are just home runs. You know, they're going to translate to the next 15 years. He can already shoot threes for real.

• 54:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 54:23Bill Simmons?

  Right? He's a really, really good three-point shooter for his size.

• 54:26Speaker 04

  For sure.

• 54:27Bill Simmons?

  He's a rim protector already. I think he's over two blocks a game, but he's at least as aware, hey, that's the rim. The other team's trying to score in it. Let me try to stop them. Also, like, he's a pretty good one-on-one defender. Like, when he gets... I can't believe I've watched The Wiz enough to even have an opinion on this.

• 54:45Speaker 04

  What do you mean? They're kind of fun.

• 54:47Bill Simmons?

  If they switch and he has to guard a smaller player, I feel like he can guard the smaller player. Like, if he's in space one-on-one, he can actually, like, defend.

• 54:56Speaker 04

  He moves great.

• 54:57Bill Simmons?

  I like him.

• 54:57Speaker 04

  He moves great. His feet are great. For a seven footer.

• 55:02Bill Simmons?

  He might be two... He might... Should be lower than 60, maybe. I don't know. We'll go through the rest. Number 59, Andrew Nemhard, who is 3 for 59 as a contract and is just a proven... I've seen him in the finals. You can win a title if he's one of the guys that's out there. And you and I value that the most. Same for this next guy, Kason Wallace. He's number 58. Still on a rookie contract. They're gonna have to pay him soon. I'm sure the Lou Dort money goes to him. I want to see when he's playing 32, 33 minutes a game. What do we got? Is there a little more offense there? Can you run offense through him? Is he just a Dort Caruso? I'm gonna be over here and I'm gonna be a pit bull on defense,

• 55:44Bill Simmons?

  and that's who I am. But I, obviously, I'm a huge fan. Huge fan. Okay, this is a good battle here. Number 57 and number 56, Reed Shepard and Keonte George. I wanted to have Reed Shepard higher, and you threw your body in front of it. Because I think I like him the most because he reminds me of Mark Price so much. I'm almost like, can't... Mark Price, you and I, one of our most beloved 90s players. We love Mark Price.

• 56:10Speaker 04

  He came to Washington and then had a foot injury that he never recovered from, but I was so excited when he came to Washington.

• 56:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he was so excited to have his jersey.

• 56:18Speaker 04

  And then he never played. We signed him. He broke his foot and that was it. God.

• 56:23Bill Simmons?

  I love Reed Shepard. He does so many things I like. I want him. I want him to be considered for the 28 Olympic team.

• 56:29Speaker 04

  This is ludicrous.

• 56:30Bill Simmons?

  Histories.

• 56:31Speaker 04

  This is outrageous.

• 56:32Bill Simmons?

  Brakes.

• 56:32Speaker 04

  It's an outrage.

• 56:34Bill Simmons?

  What's an outrage?

• 56:34Speaker 04

  He shouldn't be on, on the list. He should have been a tough omission at best. He could have, he could have easily not made the cut. He, he's definitely a tough omission. He has no business.

• 56:45Bill Simmons?

  How's, he's like 20.

• 56:47Speaker 04

  No business whatsoever. I don't, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He can't play 25 minutes a game on his, on the team that drafted him. And he couldn't, he couldn't play last year.

• 56:58Bill Simmons?

  So you think I should move him into the seventies?

• 57:01Speaker 04

  I think he, he should be a tough omission. I don't think he's ahead of any of these guys.

• 57:07Bill Simmons?

  Thank God.

• 57:07Speaker 04

  How is he ahead of Anthony Black? How's he ahead of Tari Eason?

• 57:12Bill Simmons?

  He's, those guys are about to get paid though. Those guys are about to all get paid though. He's on year two of a rookie deal.

• 57:20Bill Simmons?

  Playing real minutes and crunch time and stuff.

• 57:22Speaker 04

  All I'm suggesting is the tapping of the brakes. He does play real minutes at crunch time sometimes, not all the time. I mean, it could be the case that email is, is the most, uh, limiting factor on, on what he's capable of.

• 57:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna embrace that. Um, I might just have, so he's shooting 38% from three already this year.

• 57:46Bill Simmons?

  He's averaging 12 and three. I think maybe Kyle man, we just text too much about him and that might be messing with my brain on it. I'm all in on Reed Shepard.

• 57:55Speaker 04

  Kyle man can text me and I want to have, have the, the case made. He's not in the top, in my top 80.

• 58:00Bill Simmons?

  Would you have, so you'd have, you wouldn't trade Sar for him ever?

• 58:03Speaker 04

  Oh my God. All right. Well, what? What?

• 58:06Bill Simmons?

  All right. You know what? I'm going to move Sar above him. That's fine. I'm going to give you that. I'm a sar above these next two guys.

• 58:13Speaker 04

  All these guys should be above. Andrew Hamhard played important minutes in the effing finals.

• 58:19Bill Simmons?

  I'm projecting five years from now for Shepherd. I think he's gonna, go look at Mark Price's early stats.

• 58:25Speaker 04

  That is some kind of rose colored projection.

• 58:26Bill Simmons?

  John Stockton barely played as a rookie. I'm just listing white guys. Um, number 56, Keanthi George, who I guess is now number 57. Uh, Keanthi George is averaging 24 a game for Utah and has been so good that they just mortgaged some of the future for Jaren Jackson.

• 58:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 58:43Bill Simmons?

  Because I don't think they were expecting his timetable to, uh, advance like this. And it's interesting.

• 58:50Bill Simmons?

  I'm not positive I'd want to play with him. I've said this on earlier pods. I'm not sure it would be the most fun experience ever to be like a swing or a big on his team. But I also would like in a close game in the last minute, I feel like he's going to get to the basket or get a good shot. Like he's, he's just really tough to defend. And I think he's a gamer too. And I don't know if this is too high or too low.

• 59:12Speaker 04

  When they stop messing around and start playing serious and like actually try and win games in Utah, he's going to be an effing revelation. The, the league is, he's going to put the league on notice. He might, he could, he's capable of, of, you know, 28 to 30 points a night. No two ways about it.

• 59:30Bill Simmons?

  So you want to move Reed Shepherd all the way up into the, into the group with Tarius and Buzellis and Klingon? That's your conciliary recommendation?

• 59:38Speaker 04

  I, I, I push him all the way up.

• 59:39Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to do this. I'm going to give you this one. No, I'm not making the toughest omission. I'll make him number 74.

• 59:45Speaker 04

  Fine.

• 59:45Bill Simmons?

  And we'll, we'll figure out when I, we're going to run this on the radar tomorrow.

• 59:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. You want to put him in the same place as Donovan Klingon, then I can't argue with that. That's fine.

• 59:51Bill Simmons?

  Okay. All right. That's fine. That's fine. You got a W. Congrats. Now Reed Shepherd, anytime he does well, I can text you about it.

• 1:00:00Speaker 04

  I love him. I, I think he's amazing.

• 1:00:02Bill Simmons?

  Obviously not. You don't love him enough to fight for him in the top 60.

• 1:00:07Speaker 04

  It's outrageous.

• 1:00:08Bill Simmons?

  Number 55, Osar Thompson.

• 1:00:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Bill Simmons?

  Kind of the

• 1:00:14Speaker 04

  The best record in the East. A very important player on that team.

• 1:00:18Bill Simmons?

  Interesting, not as good as his brother, but still really valuable.

• 1:00:21Speaker 04

  Super valuable. It's funny that, that the limitations that we see out of both of those guys were exactly the limitations. It's like read their draft profile coming in, you know? Incredible athletes, this is super dynamic, capable.

• 1:00:37Bill Simmons?

  They're like the Nader sisters, like you just, you can't tell them apart. They all have the same weak decision strings.

• 1:00:42Speaker 04

  They can guard one, they can guard one through five. It's, it's really amazing. Neither one can shoot. Who's, who do you think will be able to shoot first? I mean, Amin, he has the green light, so Amin is, is ahead of Oscar.

• 1:00:54Bill Simmons?

  I think he, I think Amin has the, uh, he is more of a bag already, but you can actually give him the ball. Like Lego was talking last week about how he wished he posted up more.

• 1:01:04Speaker 04

  Oh, that's, it was such a great point. I loved hearing that.

• 1:01:07Bill Simmons?

  I like when they spread the floor for him and he just goes one on one. I, I don't think his brother can do some of that stuff.

• 1:01:11Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:01:13Bill Simmons?

  Also, Houston Thompson, probably the best defensive non-center in the league right now? Would you say he's number one? Who's better than him?

• 1:01:23Speaker 04

  Non, oh, uh, no, no, for sure. I have him, uh, I have a ticket for, for defensive player of the year on him.

• 1:01:32Bill Simmons?

  Number 54, Isaiah Stewart, three for 45. I test great. The advanced metrics are unbelievable with him. He's the best rim protection guy in the league. Like he's better than Wemba Yama and people like that. He's by far the best rim protection guy.

• 1:01:49Bill Simmons?

  And Peyton Pritchard at number 53. Who I think has the single best contract in the league. That's a non-rookie contract other than Denny. Peyton Pritchard is basically making $7 million a year. His contract is three years for $23.3 million. It's, it's just nuts.

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

  I want America to know, I seriously considered trying to mount a vigorous case for not having Pritchard here.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:18Speaker 04

  Because, you know, America.

• 1:02:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, be careful, you're going to a Celtic game on Friday night. The Boston fans are watching this right now.

• 1:02:26Speaker 04

  They expect you to have him here. America expects you to have him, you know, damn near the top 50 in the entire league. The problem is this Celtics team is surpassing all expectations.

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  And he is so important to them and the money is insane. Three years for 23 million is crazy.

• 1:02:51Bill Simmons?

  My, uh, I didn't do this on the pod, but I'm going to do it in my finalist, the ringer. I have a 13th guy for toughest admissions, but I didn't want to put him in on the podcast because you were going to laugh. But I have Kada as the toughest admission. I just was hiding it from you until Thursday.

• 1:03:05Speaker 04

  I'm glad you did.

• 1:03:06Bill Simmons?

  Kate has, Kate has been a revelation too. He's been unbelievable. But yeah, Pritchard, he's the third best guy in a team that's basically the two seed or two or three seed. And has the second rated offense in the league and um, he's a crazy one on one player.

• 1:03:25Bill Simmons?

  There's also good stats on this too, but I test wise can beat guys off the dribble and then has this, this new TJ McConnell, this new revolution of these guards under the rim that can do these herky jerky double up fakes.

• 1:03:37Speaker 04

  So TJ McConnell doesn't appear anywhere in any of this.

• 1:03:40Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:03:42Speaker 04

  Because he's not playing.

• 1:03:44Bill Simmons?

  He, yeah, I think his body is finally one too many charges. So that's the group. So we moved, we moved Shepard into the seventies, which leaves us with Nemhard, Wallace, Keanthi George, Alex Sar, Thompson, Stewart and Peyton Pritchard.

• 1:04:01Speaker 04

  That's a really good group of basketball players, like really good.

• 1:04:05Bill Simmons?

  That group is called valuable assets on great contracts. Okay, group K, this is called, if you tell Shams, I'll deny it to the death, but I am absolutely unequivocally 100% listening. Number 52 LeBron James, number 51 Zion Williamson, number 50 Jaren Jackson Jr. We did it.

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  Look at that.

• 1:04:25Bill Simmons?

  He got traded.

• 1:04:27Speaker 04

  But for not.

• 1:04:28Bill Simmons?

  Probably said like, dude, you can't tell Shams until we agree on the deal. He can't find out.

• 1:04:33Speaker 04

  Not for anybody behind him, curiously.

• 1:04:37Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:04:38Speaker 04

  Not for anybody, what was the, who were the other players?

• 1:04:42Bill Simmons?

  LeBron, Zion, Jaren, LeBron is like, oh, in the Utah trade.

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it was like Clayton and expiring basically.

• 1:04:52Speaker 04

  Here's my issue. Um, I wanted to, to argue about Zion.

• 1:04:58Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:04:58Speaker 04

  Like, all they're doing is listening. I, I, I think he is in the same position as Ja Morant.

• 1:05:06Bill Simmons?

  No, they're, they're doing, uh, we don't want to trade him. He's finally healthy. That's what they're floating, but nobody believes it.

• 1:05:12Speaker 04

  It's because it's not credible. I mean, they, I think that they would trade him if they got the one legit offer with one player or one, set of draft picks that, that would be, you know, interesting to them.

• 1:05:27Bill Simmons?

  Is there a more fun trade on the planet than Zion Williamson for LeBron James? And, and, uh, New Orleans agrees to immediately buy LeBron out?

• 1:05:37Speaker 04

  Why would New Orleans do that?

• 1:05:40Bill Simmons?

  If they got a first round pick.

• 1:05:42Speaker 04

  Oh, okay. Well, now you're talking.

• 1:05:43Bill Simmons?

  They're basically paying like $30 million for a first round pick and to get out of Zion.

• 1:05:49Speaker 04

  But then.

• 1:05:49Bill Simmons?

  I don't think this trade will happen. I'm just trying to figure out how to get LeBron out.

• 1:05:52Speaker 04

  This is the problem I'm having. How can we have Zion there? You just, you, that was a, that's a, that's a bag of chips trade. You just traded Zion for a bag of Lays.

• 1:06:01Bill Simmons?

  Where's Zion supposed to go? In the seventies? Uh, like, would?

• 1:06:04Speaker 04

  Kind of not on the list.

• 1:06:06Bill Simmons?

  Would you trade for him in the Wizards?

• 1:06:07Speaker 04

  Fuck no. No. For what? How does he help this young team get better? How does he help the chemistry of this young team? He puts asses in.

• 1:06:16Bill Simmons?

  What's the food situation in Washington for him?

• 1:06:19Speaker 04

  When he plays, there's great food in Washington. Washington in the last 15 years.

• 1:06:22Bill Simmons?

  But is it food that would make him put on weight or is it food that?

• 1:06:25Speaker 04

  You can, you can do it all. There is definitely food here. That would be not good, you know?

• 1:06:30Bill Simmons?

  It is Chocolate City.

• 1:06:31Speaker 04

  Mambo sauce on the chicken wings is not.

• 1:06:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:33Speaker 04

  A low calorie, uh, sauce, but you know, the half smokes from Ben's.

• 1:06:38Bill Simmons?

  I can't put Zion, I can't move him out of this group. I just think he's too talented because I think every team has meetings about whether they should trade for him or not. He's too talented and he's young still.

• 1:06:49Speaker 04

  But what, what teams, what are they thinking that they have to give up is, is the hard question and, and, you know, the question for this group.

• 1:06:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Speaker 04

  I don't think that there's.

• 1:06:59Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying.

• 1:06:59Speaker 04

  It's very much.

• 1:07:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't know the answer.

• 1:07:05Bill Simmons?

  Would he, he would not have fetched as much as Jaren Jackson just did.

• 1:07:09Speaker 04

  I don't think so.

• 1:07:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't think so either.

• 1:07:11Speaker 04

  I would have him in the same category as Karl Anthony Towns and Anthony Davis and Joel Embiid.

• 1:07:17Bill Simmons?

  All right, I can do that. I'll move him back.

• 1:07:21Bill Simmons?

  I'll move him with the next trade towns for Zion.

• 1:07:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, we have a trade.

• 1:07:29Speaker 04

  Another one.

• 1:07:31Bill Simmons?

  This is unbelievable. It's like the league was waiting for us to do this.

• 1:07:35Speaker 04

  This is the trade deadline pod. From now on, remember this. Go on Tuesdays. You need Zach.

• 1:07:40Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:07:44Bill Simmons?

  Huh.

• 1:07:48Bill Simmons?

  Shams says, Jaden Ivey and Mike Conley Jr. To the Bulls. Kevin Herter and Dairo Sarge to the Pistons. And Detroit receives a 2026 first round protected swap from Minnesota.

• 1:08:04Bill Simmons?

  So that's basically just Minnesota dumping Mike Conley. And not getting anything back and cutting $10 million out of.

• 1:08:15Bill Simmons?

  Freeing money for. Oh, look at this. The, the, oh, boy.

• 1:08:20Speaker 04

  Who I see when.

• 1:08:23Speaker 04

  He's doing it.

• 1:08:24Bill Simmons?

  So why is Minnesota freeing up $10 million?

• 1:08:27Speaker 04

  So why is Minnesota?

• 1:08:29Bill Simmons?

  Why would they trade a beloved teammate in Mike Conley?

• 1:08:35Speaker 04

  This is great. Live on Netflix. This is amazing.

• 1:08:40Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:08:42Speaker 04

  Who is it?

• 1:08:42Bill Simmons?

  House.

• 1:08:43Speaker 04

  Who are the candidates? Let's go through the potential candidates to play point guard for the Minnesota Timberwolves. Here's my number one.

• 1:08:49Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you're going that way. Could it be James Harden?

• 1:08:52Speaker 04

  No, although that would be really interesting. Wow.

• 1:08:57Speaker 04

  The rerouting from Cleveland to Minnesota or the Cleveland deal, the Cleveland Clippers deal isn't done, right?

• 1:09:06Bill Simmons?

  John Moran?

• 1:09:07Speaker 04

  That you, you cocksucker. I just was gonna say it. I said that was, that's the best one. That would be effing amazing.

• 1:09:17Bill Simmons?

  So for that one to work.

• 1:09:21Bill Simmons?

  Um, let me look at Minnesota's spot track. For that one to work.

• 1:09:28Bill Simmons?

  Come on. Spot track, spot track going slow. Lot of people on spot track right now.

• 1:09:34Speaker 04

  Busy.

• 1:09:35Bill Simmons?

  So Memphis did that 28 million trade exception thing. And I wonder if that factors into anything. They could also be a receptacle for an extra contract in the honest trade. If spot tracks is not working.

• 1:09:46Speaker 04

  Who does?

• 1:09:47Bill Simmons?

  We're never gonna know who's on Minnesota.

• 1:09:50Speaker 04

  They don't have.

• 1:09:50Bill Simmons?

  They have Randall's making money. They have Jada McDaniel's making money. They have Di Vincenzo making a little less money.

• 1:09:59Bill Simmons?

  Rob Dillingham, that could stick somewhere and spot track doesn't work.

• 1:10:03Speaker 04

  They need a bunch of those guys to make the run, to keep up the momentum, to be where they are in that upper echelon in the West. They can't really, who's the most expendable of that group? It's gotta be Di Vincenzo. Does that create enough room? The 10 million bucks plus Di Vincenzo.

• 1:10:20Bill Simmons?

  And I think Randall's good. Like I wouldn't trade Randall.

• 1:10:22Speaker 04

  I wouldn't either.

• 1:10:23Bill Simmons?

  Why would they do that?

• 1:10:24Speaker 04

  I don't think Randall or Nas Reed or I don't think any of them.

• 1:10:33Bill Simmons?

  So the picks in the Utah trade, they're trading their most favorable 2027 pick, Cleveland, Minnesota, or Utah. So Memphis gets that. They're trading the Lakers 2027 first and Phoenix's 2031 first to Memphis.

• 1:10:50Speaker 04

  How do they have the Lakers 2027 first?

• 1:10:54Bill Simmons?

  Cause I think it was one of the, I think that was the, what's the guy Vanderbilt trade?

• 1:10:59Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 1:10:59Bill Simmons?

  From two years ago.

• 1:11:00Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:11:01Bill Simmons?

  That's not, those picks aren't that good. So Memphis gets some half decent picks, but then they get the trade exception. And they get out of that contract.

• 1:11:11Speaker 04

  13 first rounders.

• 1:11:12Bill Simmons?

  That's the best they could do. So we might've been in the right range with Jaren Jackson. Right?

• 1:11:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20Bill Simmons?

  Okay, back to trade value.

• 1:11:24Bill Simmons?

  Wow. Keep those trades coming, NBA. This is great. What a great idea to go live.

• 1:11:31Bill Simmons?

  Group J, sorry, we're pot committed here.

• 1:11:36Bill Simmons?

  Darren Fox, number 49. Five for 260 is his contract situation.

• 1:11:41Speaker 04

  That's a lot of money.

• 1:11:43Bill Simmons?

  OG and an Obi.

• 1:11:46Bill Simmons?

  He's 48. Next two I'll put together. Pascal Siakam, number 47. He's three years, 146. Or Julius Randall, three for 100. I think Randall has more trade value because of the contract. I like both players. I loved what Siakam did last year. But if I'm trying to build a team as cheap as possible, I'd rather have Randall.

• 1:12:08Speaker 04

  I, this is true for live TV. I have to run downstairs for 15 seconds to let my child into my house.

• 1:12:18Bill Simmons?

  I'll do it. This is great for live TV. You locked, you locked your kid out.

• 1:12:22Speaker 04

  I locked him out.

• 1:12:23Bill Simmons?

  So you weren't even listening to my Siakam-Randall thing.

• 1:12:26Speaker 04

  They're in the perfect spot. I just realized though, panic moment.

• 1:12:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, if we can throw to a break, we'll throw to a break. Otherwise I'll filibuster. Go, go, go. Do your thing. Okay, I'll keep going. So Minnesota, by shedding 10 million, trying to find, is there more? This is hilarious. I wonder if this has happened. Does this ever happen on ESPN where somebody just had to solo? This happened once I did a rewatchables and I forgot. I brought the wrong iPad out and the iPad ran out of batteries and I had to leave the stage and run back and get the other iPad. While, while Van Lathan and Chris Ryan filibuster. But House, locking out his own kid. This is borderline child abuse by House.

• 1:13:11Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of. Major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta, lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:14:41Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Carhartt. We spend a lot of time talking about football, the players, the coaches, the big plays, but there's a whole other team we rarely think about, the people who make the game possible, the workers building stadiums, paving parking lots, growing the grass, welding the goalposts, even making the footballs. They're committed to their craft and they're doing the work long before kickoff. Carhartt is proud to outfit those crews. So next time you're watching a game, take a second to appreciate the people behind it. Learn more at carhartt.com/jointhetrades. Honestly, I'm glad you guys got to witness this. This is kind of Father Joe houses.

• 1:15:17Bill Simmons?

  I can't find any more information about this trade. There's House.

• 1:15:22Bill Simmons?

  I couldn't find any more information and America just decided you're a terrible father.

• 1:15:28Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:15:31Bill Simmons?

  We're back.

• 1:15:33Bill Simmons?

  Are you back?

• 1:15:34Speaker 04

  He wasn't really locked out.

• 1:15:37Bill Simmons?

  Parent corner. Pascal Siakam, three for 146, or Rando, three for 100. What do you got?

• 1:15:43Speaker 04

  Those are both very fair contracts and both those guys, I mean, really, let's, let's take 10 seconds to commend Pascal Siakam on the season.

• 1:15:52Bill Simmons?

  Really? This season, playing really hard?

• 1:15:55Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:15:55Bill Simmons?

  I watched Indiana last night, like, they, I know they're tanking, but they're not tanking. Like, that team was trying to win and was super competitive and was really upset that they didn't beat Houston.

• 1:16:05Speaker 04

  One of the hardest teams to gamble on.

• 1:16:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's a stay away.

• 1:16:09Speaker 04

  It's a stay away.

• 1:16:11Bill Simmons?

  Number 45, another guy who's played himself back onto the list, LaMelo Ball, four years, 168 million. The Hornets have won seven in a row, and he has gone from maybe being in the vicinity of Trey Young and Ja Morant as a trade asset to, I think, playing, maybe shedding that, and is a big part of what Charlotte does. And I just think, when you combine with how popular he is in Charlotte, I just don't, I think he's moved himself in the top 50 house.

• 1:16:38Speaker 04

  I was prepared to fight this one as well, but there is a nucleus there, those.

• 1:16:46Bill Simmons?

  Four guys that really play well together.

• 1:16:48Speaker 04

  And, and the, um, those lineups, the five man.

• 1:16:53Bill Simmons?

  Diabate?

• 1:16:54Speaker 04

  He's an important part of it, Ball.

• 1:16:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. You're rattled. You're rattled from being screamed at by your son, I can tell.

• 1:17:01Speaker 04

  Everything's good.

• 1:17:03Bill Simmons?

  Next three, 44, 43, 42, Dillon Brooks, Zubats, Austin Reeves, all with really good deals. Brooks is 21 and 19 for the next two years. Zubats is in the, uh, in the 18 to 21 range, and Reeves just has 14 this year and is getting paid next year. Would that be the order for you? Brooks, then Zubats, then Reeves. Reeves is gonna get paid this summer is the problem.

• 1:17:27Speaker 04

  I don't think it's a problem. I mean, this seems super fair to me. Um, I feel like Zubats is gonna fetch something meaningful, potentially, in this upcoming trade deadline. You hear his name.

• 1:17:40Bill Simmons?

  They do Garland for Harden. Yeah.

• 1:17:45Bill Simmons?

  Dillon Brooks being number 44 on a trade value list, I think would have been 500 to 1 odds two years ago.

• 1:17:51Speaker 04

  And five years from now, we might look back and say, holy cow, that was insane.

• 1:17:55Bill Simmons?

  I'm still watching Phoenix games, being unable to comprehend how they're this good.

• 1:18:02Bill Simmons?

  Like Jalen Green's done nothing this year, right? They basically have two guys that you would have counted on, and then a bunch of awesome role players who played really hard, and it works. And I don't really understand it. We only have two Suns on the list. Number 41 is Aaron Gordon, who is-

• 1:18:19Speaker 04

  Did you apologize to Ishbia yet?

• 1:18:22Bill Simmons?

  I'm not going to apologize to Ishbia. Did he apologize to me last year for killing our Suns over bet? When we bet on them to win 50 plus games? It's a year to year thing. The league goes up and down. He apologized to me last year.

• 1:18:33Speaker 04

  I had them as over this year.

• 1:18:35Bill Simmons?

  Did you go over with them?

• 1:18:36Speaker 04

  Of course, yeah. I just thought-

• 1:18:38Bill Simmons?

  Of course, you're Mr. Over.

• 1:18:40Speaker 04

  No, I'm gonna get killed on a couple.

• 1:18:45Bill Simmons?

  Aaron Gordon, number 41. He's three for 103, good contract. I wish we knew he was playing all the time, but I also think he's so essential to Denver. It's not like they'd be like, oh, we'll trade him. Number 40, Kevin Durant, or number 39, Kawhi Leonard, are the last two in this group. Durant is three for 144. Kawhi is two for 100, plus you get to learn about planting trees if you have Kawhi on your team.

• 1:19:10Speaker 04

  Carbon cares about carbon footprint.

• 1:19:12Bill Simmons?

  Big tree guy, really cares about the environment.

• 1:19:16Bill Simmons?

  My question for you, do you think Houston, knowing what they know now, do you think they wish they hadn't done anything and instead would be doing the Godfather offer for Giannis right now versus going in last June for KD? Do you think they would want to mull it on that deep down if you got Rafael Stone drunk at a hotel bar at 2:00 in the morning and be like, come on, be honest. Now, would you rather just had, kept the assets and made a Giannis?

• 1:19:43Speaker 04

  So this season, they would still had Dillon Brooks and Jalen Green.

• 1:19:51Speaker 04

  Did they give up cap flexibility?

• 1:19:53Bill Simmons?

  They gave up the number 10 pick, too.

• 1:19:57Bill Simmons?

  Your center that you wanted, who's in the G League. Tough, tough, tough one for your scouting.

• 1:20:03Speaker 04

  Malawak.

• 1:20:04Bill Simmons?

  Malawak.

• 1:20:07Bill Simmons?

  But it's interesting, because

• 1:20:10Bill Simmons?

  now that, now it'd be harder for them to pull the trade off. They'd have to put, like, they could have had Green as the contract in it. Now they'd have to put one of their good guys. So I don't really know the answer, and it doesn't seem like you do either.

• 1:20:20Speaker 04

  I don't know the answer.

• 1:20:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, if you were a Houston fan, would you be happy with this current outcome?

• 1:20:27Speaker 04

  Only if Steven Adams wasn't hurt. That's the problem.

• 1:20:30Bill Simmons?

  But he gets hurt every year. Like, is it like a shocker Steven Adams got hurt?

• 1:20:34Speaker 04

  Well, okay, F V V and Steven Adams.

• 1:20:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that combo's tough.

• 1:20:39Speaker 04

  When it was this, you know.

• 1:20:40Bill Simmons?

  Right, they had F V V before that trade.

• 1:20:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:20:44Bill Simmons?

  Are you okay with Kawhi at number 39?

• 1:20:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, you know.

• 1:20:48Bill Simmons?

  Yes, he says sadly.

• 1:20:49Speaker 04

  Well, what are you gonna do?

• 1:20:53Speaker 04

  He's on pace to, he's only played 60 games once in the last, you know, six years. And he's on pace to play less than 60 games again this year. And when he plays.

• 1:21:04Bill Simmons?

  He's probably been one of the three best guys in the league for the last seven weeks.

• 1:21:07Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:21:08Bill Simmons?

  So I can't not have him in the top 40.

• 1:21:10Speaker 04

  I'm with you. I'm not even arguing it.

• 1:21:13Bill Simmons?

  All right, Group I is called. That last group was, sorry, we're pocket committed here. Fox, Ananobi, Siakam, Randall, Ball, Brooks, Subats, Reeves, Gordon, Durant, and Kawhi. Big group. Next group, Group I. If you're dangling a reckless Bain Bridges type overpay, sure, we'd love to talk. Number 38, Franz Wagner. Number 37, Bam Adebayo. This is the highest he's ever been on one of these lists. He's usually in the 20s. Number 36, Trey Murphy. Number 35, Lauri Markkinen. And number 34, Derrick White, who is going to make four years, $118 million over the, this year and the next three. So he's under 30 a year. Trey Murphy also has a good contract, 4 for 112.

• 1:21:58Bill Simmons?

  Bam is at 37 this year. And then three years, $161 million.

• 1:22:04Bill Simmons?

  For a guy who's shooting under 50% field goal and feels like he's worse than he was two years ago offensively, and then Franz and Laurie Marketing are on big, kind of basically max deals. So any of those names jump out to you?

• 1:22:17Speaker 04

  Well, here's, here's my, my proposal to you. I would take this entire group and put them either in J or K. Like, I don't, I don't, I look at LaMelo Ball and Trey Murphy. I don't, Charlotte's not doing that. They hang up the phone immediately.

• 1:22:40Bill Simmons?

  Trey Murphy making $20 million less, though?

• 1:22:44Speaker 04

  But, but.

• 1:22:44Bill Simmons?

  I mean, Trey Murphy at 25 and LaMelo Ball at 45.

• 1:22:49Speaker 04

  They're getting what they pay for with LaMelo. Like, I bet them to make the playoffs. I think we're gonna see if he stays healthy.

• 1:22:55Bill Simmons?

  He's been hurt all the time.

• 1:22:56Speaker 04

  I know. Well, that, that's right. That was a bad example.

• 1:22:59Bill Simmons?

  No, I think that's why he's in that group.

• 1:23:01Speaker 04

  Let's do, let's do Franz and LaMelo Ball then. Speaking of guys who can't stay healthy.

• 1:23:05Bill Simmons?

  Franz has been hurt twice. Right. You could argue that Franz should be in, in the previous group. I think that's fair. I can move him.

• 1:23:13Speaker 04

  And, and Bam, you can move two groups back as far as I'm concerned.

• 1:23:19Speaker 04

  I understand the, the immeasurable impact defense wise, and they did this experiment of playing at the fastest pace in the NBA, Miami, with the way they started the season. But where the hell are they now? And he, and he's, he's diminished his own trade value.

• 1:23:39Bill Simmons?

  So here, here'd be the counter on Bam. He's playing on a team that doesn't really have a single player in their roster who would be like, tonight, I'm gonna make Bam out of bio better. Right?

• 1:23:52Speaker 04

  Agreed.

• 1:23:52Bill Simmons?

  Like, what would he be like on a team? Like, what would he be like with a real guard? Like, what if he was with Donovan Mitchell? You know, somebody like an explosive guard that could create space for him. I just think he's on a weird team.

• 1:24:06Speaker 04

  Cleveland would be a great team for him.

• 1:24:09Bill Simmons?

  So we'll go for that group. I'll move Franz back, Odebio, Murphy, Markkinen, Derrick White. And the Derrick White case is just, he, there's just nobody in the league right, like him right now. And he's out there, and this has been the case for years and years. The lineups are just better and more favorable. He just knows where to go, what to do, how to play. He's an unbelievable defensive player. I think he's in the running for top two all defense teams this year.

• 1:24:38Bill Simmons?

  And he's just additive. He can't be one of the best two guys on your team, but he can be the third best guy.

• 1:24:42Speaker 04

  I'm not gonna say one bad thing about him. He delivered a chip to you guys. He was the most important player.

• 1:24:49Bill Simmons?

  We're hitting a really fun part of the trade value pod now. Thirty-three guys left. Group H, two guys. Let me save you some time. Fuck no.

• 1:24:59Speaker 04

  My word.

• 1:25:00Bill Simmons?

  We can swear on Netflix. They just ran the rip. Those guys are swearing at each other for two hours. Number thirty-three, Cedric Coward. Number thirty-two, Brandon Miller. Who, this is a rare type of player, Brandon Miller. We've had these guys throughout the years. These guys that they're not as good as you want them to be, but you don't care. Like you watch them and like, that guy might be, Ray Allen was like this far out and Ray Allen ended up having a great career.

• 1:25:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Bill Simmons?

  But these guys that you just watch them and you're like, man, I'd fucking kill someone for that jump shot. Man, that guy could have fifty tonight. Oh, my God. That, it's so effortless, everything that dude does. Like, he's just, he's just so talented and I love his jump shot. I think that might be my favorite jump shot right now.

• 1:25:50Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:25:50Bill Simmons?

  Somebody you'd have above him?

• 1:25:52Speaker 04

  Your favorite jump shot?

• 1:25:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think it is. It's really great. It's like an old school, awesome, awesome, awesome fucking jump shot.

• 1:26:01Bill Simmons?

  Every time he shoots, I think it's going in. If he's open, I just think, I assume it's going in.

• 1:26:06Speaker 04

  And it's surprising when it doesn't.

• 1:26:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I really like him.

• 1:26:10Speaker 04

  It's pretty good.

• 1:26:10Bill Simmons?

  And Coward, uh, Coward is just, wow.

• 1:26:14Speaker 04

  So that's also part of, of the Memphis.

• 1:26:16Bill Simmons?

  Have you seen him in person?

• 1:26:17Speaker 04

  I have not. I did not go to Wizards Memphis.

• 1:26:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, he's, I mean, now he's probably the best player on the roster.

• 1:26:26Speaker 04

  It's, it's now a team with, with, that's, it's Jalen Wells and, and, and Coward, right?

• 1:26:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Jalen Wells is a role player. I mean, they.

• 1:26:34Speaker 04

  He'd be good.

• 1:26:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, maybe. But they're in the full tank. They're now, they have their eyes on the prize now. So there, that would be a good over under for us. What do they have?

• 1:26:45Speaker 04

  Oh, I already bet it. I bet it under this week, 32 and a half. Thank God.

• 1:26:50Bill Simmons?

  Off the board now. Fanduel's like, that, that, that over under is gone. We don't, we don't trust whatever that team's up to. Okay.

• 1:26:59Speaker 04

  I think Coward is incredible. He's, he's very dynamic.

• 1:27:04Bill Simmons?

  You could argue both of those guys could be higher, by the way.

• 1:27:08Speaker 04

  You mean in, in, inside the top 30?

• 1:27:10Bill Simmons?

  On this list. Yeah, I'm just saying, you could argue it. I, I think they're in the right spots. Next group is a one man group. It's called Group G. Thank God he's on a poison pill and we can't seriously discuss this. Paolo Bencaro.

• 1:27:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:24Bill Simmons?

  They can't, there's no way for them to trade him until the summer. You know, everything has been said. Yeah, I think he's taken more shit than any good player this season. There's signs of life with the Magic. And sometimes taking shit can be good for a basketball player, as we've witnessed with Jalen Brown. Right?

• 1:27:45Speaker 04

  They, they need an overhaul in, in the approach, in, in their concept, in their scheme.

• 1:27:51Bill Simmons?

  I tried to say that to Legs last week. Legs doesn't like coach stuff.

• 1:27:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know. I understand.

• 1:27:57Bill Simmons?

  Has not done a good job this season.

• 1:28:01Speaker 04

  They also never get their, their three best players healthy at the same time to play 50 games. Never.

• 1:28:07Bill Simmons?

  I will say with Palo, he dropped, he was in the top 10 last year when we did this, and now he's 31. So that tells you all you need to know.

• 1:28:15Speaker 04

  Seems fair to me.

• 1:28:17Bill Simmons?

  Still feel like he could pull it back and be a top 10 guy again, but the question for me is, if that's the guy that's taking most of your shots, where are you going? Right?

• 1:28:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:28:29Speaker 04

  I watched it. Went to a Wizards Magic game.

• 1:28:33Bill Simmons?

  What were your takes?

• 1:28:35Speaker 04

  Well, he didn't play very much in the fourth quarter. He might not have played at all. He shoots when he touches the ball.

• 1:28:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:42Speaker 04

  And it doesn't matter where he is.

• 1:28:44Bill Simmons?

  Group F. This is a unique, group F. This is a unique situation and I'm hanging up. Number 30 Tyrese Halbert, number 29 Jason Tatum. I have no idea where to put these guys. Obviously, they're not getting traded. Obviously, nobody's trading for them.

• 1:28:57Speaker 04

  Right. We can keep moving.

• 1:28:59Bill Simmons?

  Group B, budding, but expensive, almost franchise guys.

• 1:29:04Speaker 04

  Almost.

• 1:29:06Bill Simmons?

  Really interesting category here with the almost franchise guys, the not quite franchise guys. You and I both have the same definition of a franchise guy. You need to guarantee me 45 to 50 wins if you're on my team to be a true franchise guy, in my opinion. Or at least have the potential to do that. I don't think any of these three guys do it.

• 1:29:24Speaker 04

  These names are so good.

• 1:29:25Bill Simmons?

  Number 28, Jalen Williams, another guy that's dropped. Number 27, Scotty Barnes, having a great year in Toronto. And number 26, Evan Mobley, who is also dropped.

• 1:29:36Speaker 04

  It's a great category and absolutely perfect grouping to have the three of them together. All of them inside the top 30.

• 1:29:44Bill Simmons?

  All making big money.

• 1:29:46Speaker 04

  Deserve it, too.

• 1:29:47Bill Simmons?

  All making salaries in the mid 40s. So you're not getting deals anymore. They're not, they're second contract guys. And they're probably the second best guy on an awesome team. In Jalen Williams' case, we know for a fact. In Mobley's case, we know for a fact. In Barnes, we'll see.

• 1:30:02Speaker 04

  He might be the top guy. He might be.

• 1:30:05Bill Simmons?

  Who?

• 1:30:05Speaker 04

  Barnes.

• 1:30:07Bill Simmons?

  But top guy on a finals team?

• 1:30:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, probably not.

• 1:30:12Bill Simmons?

  No. He's the number two guy on a finals team. Okay. Group D. Some good either ors in this group. We're down to the top 25. Group D. Number 25, Dylan Harper. Number 24, VJ Edgecombe.

• 1:30:27Bill Simmons?

  Who hangs up faster?

• 1:30:29Speaker 04

  The Sixers.

• 1:30:30Bill Simmons?

  Sixers or the Spurs?

• 1:30:31Speaker 04

  The Sixers, the Sixers.

• 1:30:33Bill Simmons?

  I think the Spurs hang up faster, but I still had Edge come ahead of them. Yeah, Harper fits more with they, where they're going.

• 1:30:39Speaker 04

  That, that's, that's fine. I mean, I think he gets the benefit, Harper.

• 1:30:42Bill Simmons?

  Actually, the Sixers hang up faster because they already have Maxey.

• 1:30:45Speaker 04

  That's what I just said.

• 1:30:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think they hang up simultaneously. It's almost like a 24 A and B. Nope, we both hang up.

• 1:30:52Speaker 04

  Not interested. No, thank you.

• 1:30:54Bill Simmons?

  So we had a conversation about whether this was too high for Harper.

• 1:31:00Speaker 04

  I, I'm not sold that this, that this is the right spot for him.

• 1:31:05Bill Simmons?

  You want to make the case or you just going to be a wuss?

• 1:31:07Speaker 04

  Well, only in the sense that, um, I think VJ, VJ Edgecomb is, is way ahead of Harper. Like not even close, uh, in terms of the, the value and, and impact. And the proof of concept comes in the form of all of the clutch minutes that VJ Edgecomb has played. And propelling that team to the wins that they have. There was no concept of that Sixers team coming into the season that he was going to be playing the crunch time minutes. With the, with the big, you know, S on his chest and, and, you know, taking very confident shots.

• 1:31:50Speaker 04

  Shots that make sense of the offense, the last four minute shots. He, he's in a class of his own. Honestly, I, I understand why Cooper flag is going to win rookie of the year if he doesn't get hurt again. But I, I have VJ Edgecomb in the conversation for sure.

• 1:32:09Bill Simmons?

  Wow. I think you, that was your audition for being on an ESPN show.

• 1:32:15Speaker 04

  Well, I can sit and get.

• 1:32:15Bill Simmons?

  What are you talking about? Cooper flag and canip have been better than Edgecomb.

• 1:32:19Speaker 04

  In what situations?

• 1:32:21Bill Simmons?

  I think just offensively.

• 1:32:22Speaker 04

  The Hornets sucked for the first 30 games and, and.

• 1:32:26Bill Simmons?

  That was a canip's foul.

• 1:32:28Speaker 04

  Edge, Edgecombe elevated.

• 1:32:30Bill Simmons?

  I love Edgecombe. I'm not gonna argue the other side of Edgecombe.

• 1:32:32Speaker 04

  He elevated the situation.

• 1:32:35Bill Simmons?

  I, I think he's in an unbelievable spot where offensively, he literally doesn't have to worry about doing anything because he has a, right now, healthy Joel Embiid with Tyrese Maxey on his team averaging 60 points a game.

• 1:32:46Speaker 04

  He didn't have.

• 1:32:46Bill Simmons?

  Anything he does is a bonus.

• 1:32:48Speaker 04

  He didn't have Embiid at the very beginning and they weren't playing Embiid at the very beginning.

• 1:32:52Bill Simmons?

  You made the key point. He seems to really show up in the last three, four minutes. You can feel him in the game. And he's great at like, I'm not really involved in this play, but I'm gonna figure out how to get involved. I'm gonna run to the basket from the blind side and try to see if I can tip a ball, anything.

• 1:33:10Speaker 04

  Totally agree.

• 1:33:10Bill Simmons?

  And then defensively can do whatever he wants. I love Edgecombe. I love Dylan Harper. And, uh, my only regret with Dylan Harper was I just wish he had more minutes. I know why the minutes aren't there, but he's just, the team's almost too good for him. But I think ultimately it would benefit him because he's gonna be in these playoff series in a couple of months.

• 1:33:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, I would have him behind a whole ton of guys that, that you have him ahead of.

• 1:33:34Bill Simmons?

  He's gonna remember me finally on my Dylan Harper number 25.

• 1:33:37Speaker 04

  I would push him 20 places back. 2026 Harper is not wowing anybody.

• 1:33:44Bill Simmons?

  Okay. You're going against the guy who told everyone in July that Konkunipole was gonna be in the 2028 Olympic team. Just, just warning you. Number 23 in the apron friendly untouchables, Jalen Johnson.

• 1:33:58Bill Simmons?

  Five years, 150 million. One of the better bargains in the league and, uh, has been really good. I wish his team was more consistent. You're the best guy on the team. I need you to win a couple of games in a row and then not do the thing where you win two or three in a row and you start getting excited and then you stink the next game.

• 1:34:14Speaker 04

  There might be a coaching situation there too. We, they, we just.

• 1:34:19Bill Simmons?

  With red glasses Quinn?

• 1:34:20Speaker 04

  Why are they so inconsistent? Why, why are they so underwhelming?

• 1:34:25Bill Simmons?

  They killed the Celtics last week and it was like, here they go. And then I think they lost two games later to somebody terrible.

• 1:34:30Speaker 04

  They just can't get healthy at the same time and go on a run.

• 1:34:33Bill Simmons?

  One thing with Jalen Johnson, unbelievable that he wasn't a lottery pick. Had a, remember he had that weird Duke?

• 1:34:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:34:40Bill Simmons?

  Season and he left early and it kinda, he got the stink on him a little bit. But that guy not being in the lottery is nuts.

• 1:34:47Speaker 04

  Worked out for him.

• 1:34:49Bill Simmons?

  Ooh, another either or. Number 22, Jalen Durin or number 21, Alpern Sengun?

• 1:34:56Bill Simmons?

  Shango makes five for 185 is his contract because he already maxed up. Duren has not been maxed up yet, so Duren's on a rookie deal. And that could be the argument if you want to have Duren ahead of Shangoon.

• 1:35:07Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 1:35:07Bill Simmons?

  That he's cheap, but I'm, I love Shangoon. Every game he almost gets in a fight with somebody now, like the, the UFC Turkey side's really starting to come out.

• 1:35:20Speaker 04

  See, I, I have Shangoon up in the, like, the, the next group, the group, the group C. Like, I would have him.

• 1:35:27Bill Simmons?

  You would have him next to Chet?

• 1:35:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, I sure would. Yes, I would. Yes. Yes. I think.

• 1:35:33Bill Simmons?

  So you'd have him number 17?

• 1:35:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, that, that class.

• 1:35:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, let me read the next four guys and you tell me if you still feel that way. Number 20, former Wizard, Denny Avdia, who has the best contract in the entire league. Three years, 40 million dollars for an all NBA player potentially.

• 1:35:50Speaker 04

  Not going to say a single bad thing about Denny. I'm just going to make the observation, his best use is high use. He needs the ball to be this version of himself. So how many situations can he have the ball? At least that, that, this revelation of him.

• 1:36:07Bill Simmons?

  Being on a 500 team makes sense for him to have that ball all the time, but if it's a 55 win team.

• 1:36:12Speaker 04

  Time and he's constantly going downhill. He's a downhill player, so he's a specific type. Again, love him, love him. And look at us, you know, look at Washington's explanation for why they had to trade him when they did. A little side eye, I will confess, I'm not 100% persuaded. I do think ultimately this group of kids, the timeline that Washington has. But man, this version of Denny is really something.

• 1:36:40Bill Simmons?

  People seem to be relatively surprised he was an All-Star. I mean, to me, it was like, Denny Avdia made it. It was like, yeah, do you watch fucking basketball? To me, he's still in the all NBA conversation. He has, he did get hurt last week, so he's had some back issues. Number 19, Stephon Castle.

• 1:37:00Bill Simmons?

  Number 18, Con Knippel. Number 17, Amen Thompson. This is probably my favorite grouping of the entire list.

• 1:37:11Bill Simmons?

  I think Thompson has to be first out of those three. Knippel versus Castle is a great argument. Knippel, you get, you get an extra year of him on the rookie contract. I just, I honestly can't believe how good Knippel is. I can't believe it. I can't believe the shit he's doing in these games. Like, he's getting like hard baskets and in, you know, four minutes left, tie game. He's getting like physical, takes a guy into, into the paint, up fake, puts his shoulder against him, gets a 15 footer, like, professional baskets that 29 year olds make.

• 1:37:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:37:43Bill Simmons?

  And then Castle, what he did to Durant last week, was one of the great things anyone's done all year. Like, just absolutely gotten his shit and shut down one of the greatest scorers in the history of the league. Just shut him down. I don't care. He's 37.

• 1:37:54Speaker 04

  Literally a joy to watch.

• 1:37:56Bill Simmons?

  Could not care more game to game. Maybe cares the most.

• 1:38:02Bill Simmons?

  Maybe, I wouldn't say cares the most, but if you rate guys one to 100 for how much you care about each game, he's probably 100.

• 1:38:09Speaker 04

  It's not time for us to do this, but it's going to be really fascinating as the playoffs approach, where we try and forecast how San Antonio is going to perform in the playoffs. Because the conundrum is, as hard as they play, can they go up another level? Can they go up another level against a team that plays them, you know, over a, a seven game series? Do they have the ability to change?

• 1:38:32Bill Simmons?

  Right. So it's the old football thing. Are you the regular season really good team? Or do you have the other? Give the, can you up at one level for the playoffs?

• 1:38:40Speaker 04

  The way that they came back against Houston last week and just took that game away and, and bullied, bullied Houston in the fourth quarter.

• 1:38:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. The history of the league says, bet on the team that's a year too soon than a year too late. And that if there's signs of what, like what they did last week against Houston, bet on that. Cause in the playoffs, that tends to blossom in an even bigger way. Castle, Knippel, Thompson, that's about as.

• 1:39:04Speaker 04

  Really fun.

• 1:39:05Bill Simmons?

  Like 20 years ago, that, but all three of those guys probably have been in the top 10. Group C, the not apron friendly untouchables. And there's one argument to have, but let me read all the guys. All these guys have big contracts. Number 16, Chet Holmgren, Jamal Murray, Jalen Brown, Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunson, number 11. And the reason he's number 11 is because by far he has the best contract. He is four years for 156. You're basically saving 10 million a year by having Jalen Brunson on your team. And I think that swings it. I have all these guys near each other. Is there, does that order look right to you? Or is there, do you have, would you raise your hand?

• 1:39:49Speaker 04

  The only player that I'd like to have a conversation about is Chet. Because this group of players right here are all guys that could absolutely,

• 1:40:02Speaker 04

  we have proof of concept. Jamal Murray helped Denver win a championship. Crucial, crucial player to Denver winning a championship. Jalen Brown, crucial player to the Celtics winning a championship. Devin Booker, crucial player in the NBA.

• 1:40:15Bill Simmons?

  To make the finals.

• 1:40:15Speaker 04

  Finals, right? Jalen Brunson, sacrifice, however you want to characterize, whatever happened with this, this deal, that whatever accommodations were made, accommodated a situation where the Knicks have a genuine chance to, once again, be in the Eastern Conference Finals and make a push to get into the.

• 1:40:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, that would be one thing why he would be more untradeable because obviously, things were said and things were promised.

• 1:40:42Speaker 04

  Not, not a knock.

• 1:40:45Speaker 04

  I think he's.

• 1:40:45Bill Simmons?

  You can't trade him. He's like, but wait a second. What about that meeting I taped?

• 1:40:49Speaker 04

  I don't have Chet Holmgren in this class, is all I'm saying.

• 1:40:53Bill Simmons?

  So it sounds like you wanna,

• 1:40:56Bill Simmons?

  it sounds like you want to put Chet Holmgren and Shingun together.

• 1:41:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, honestly, I'd rather have Shingun over at Holmgren.

• 1:41:06Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:41:08Speaker 04

  I think over the course of their entire careers, Shingun has, I'm gonna knock on wood, I don't want to jinx him, has the capacity to avoid injuries that have him out for, for extended stretches.

• 1:41:22Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:41:23Speaker 04

  And he plays a very physical brand of basketball that makes him very special in this. And I mean, again.

• 1:41:30Bill Simmons?

  Chet's had a couple, Chet's had a couple injuries already. I guess with Holmgren, the defense and then the metrics that back up his defense. It's way, way up there. But you also feel it when Hartenstein goes out. And all that like they've been on they were on a little bit of a slide into the Denver game. But on paper, threes and rim protection, that's what you're looking for. All right, we can move so I can move Holmgren back. Right after so it goes Thompson, Knipple, Castle, then Shangoon, Holmgren. Then Avdia, then Jalen Dern. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero.

• 1:42:15Bill Simmons?

  Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching, just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. Do that.

• 1:42:57Speaker 04

  Let me ask this.

• 1:42:58Bill Simmons?

  So I'd make group C would be Jamal Murray, Jalen Brown, Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunson. Do you like that?

• 1:43:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes, that's very fair.

• 1:43:08Bill Simmons?

  Okay. We are now in the top 10. And we have two groups left. Group B, only if they made us do it. Number 10, Steph Curry. Number nine, Giannis and Tadakupo.

• 1:43:21Speaker 04

  So Giannis is making him do it and Steph, I guess, won't, won't. I wish he would.

• 1:43:30Bill Simmons?

  Does Steph sing hard because? Nobody, like, would it make sense for San Antonio to trade Stephen Castle for Steph Curry?

• 1:43:40Speaker 04

  Of course. What kind of question is that?

• 1:43:42Bill Simmons?

  Right. But they can't do it with the cap because one guy makes $7 million a year and the other guy makes 50. So that's where, like, he makes so much money. That it it kind of throws off. It's like no trade is realistic for him is my point.

• 1:43:58Speaker 04

  For Steph Curry?

• 1:44:00Bill Simmons?

  Cause Golden State's not trading him for Brunson, Mitchell, Booker, Brown, or Murray. Why would you at that point? You're just going sideways.

• 1:44:07Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:44:08Bill Simmons?

  You're not really trading him for one of these younger assets like Castle, Knipple, Thompson, just because what is, what does that do for those teams? Oh, who?

• 1:44:19Speaker 04

  I don't know. Steph Curry on Houston?

• 1:44:23Bill Simmons?

  For Thompson, F V V?

• 1:44:27Speaker 04

  I would consider it. Like Amon is untouchable to me nearly.

• 1:44:31Bill Simmons?

  You just said you would consider it though.

• 1:44:33Speaker 04

  Fucking Steph Curry.

• 1:44:36Bill Simmons?

  Poor Durant would be so bummed out. He'd be like, what the fuck? Now I now I get to hear about Steph. Couldn't win a title without Steph.

• 1:44:42Speaker 04

  That'd be the funniest thing ever.

• 1:44:44Bill Simmons?

  Trying to fix this Steph thing. And then Giannis, if he had a contract that everyone felt good about,

• 1:44:52Bill Simmons?

  and a situation that everybody felt like he was staying in, he'd be higher than number nine.

• 1:44:56Speaker 04

  Sure. Right. He's gonna get traded, so he can't be.

• 1:45:00Bill Simmons?

  He will not be traded for any of these next eight guys. This is Group A, completely and utterly untouchable.

• 1:45:07Bill Simmons?

  Number eight, Tyrese Maxey, and number seven, Cade Cunningham.

• 1:45:12Speaker 04

  Two, two really impressive seasons.

• 1:45:16Bill Simmons?

  Hangups.

• 1:45:17Speaker 04

  Way to, way to go.

• 1:45:17Bill Simmons?

  Hey, I'm calling about Cade. I'm just hanging up.

• 1:45:21Bill Simmons?

  Hey, what's the deal with Maxey? I hung up.

• 1:45:25Speaker 04

  Here, I need to do it with both hands. We need both those guys healthy for the, for the NBA playoffs. We need the Eastern Conference, we need those guys in the Eastern Conference Finals. Or, you know, wherever the Sixers end up.

• 1:45:38Bill Simmons?

  Maxey's hit a point where I don't, not even sure who he reminds me of in NBA history.

• 1:45:43Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 1:45:45Bill Simmons?

  He's almost like.

• 1:45:48Bill Simmons?

  I was almost thinking of other sports.

• 1:45:51Speaker 04

  Huh.

• 1:45:51Bill Simmons?

  Like, he reminds me of Jameer Gibbs.

• 1:45:53Speaker 04

  It's the speed.

• 1:45:55Bill Simmons?

  It's the speed, but it's like these little stretches, these four-minute stretches he has, where he just completely takes over the game and the other team's helpless and you know he's doing it.

• 1:46:05Speaker 04

  He's making every bucket.

• 1:46:06Bill Simmons?

  It reminds me of like those Lions drives where Gibbs is like, here's Gibbs again for 12. Here's Gibbs on the wheel route for 25 and the other team's like, we can't stop this. Or Bijon Robinson when he gets like that, like that's who he reminds me of. Yeah, these like crazy athlete just taking over a drive. He takes over drives, even though NBA games are obviously different than football, but he'll take over these six-minute stretches. He's done it over and over again. They'll be down 10. And then all of a sudden, Maxey will just hit two threes, he gets a fast break layup, and he gets a floater and it's a tie game. And the Philly fans are going nuts. We're like, what just happened? They were down 10. I don't, I can't think of any other players like him.

• 1:46:49Speaker 04

  In history?

• 1:46:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and I'm not saying like, like I'm not putting him up on a, you know, in the pantheon. I'm just saying, I don't know what kind of guard was like him that I've watched.

• 1:46:59Speaker 04

  What's, what's artificial intelligence say? We have to ask.

• 1:47:04Bill Simmons?

  You going to like Gemini?

• 1:47:05Speaker 04

  I'm in one right now. The historical comp that comes up, speaking of AI, is AI.

• 1:47:12Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's interesting. AI wasn't the shooter that Maxey was.

• 1:47:15Speaker 04

  No, I agree.

• 1:47:16Bill Simmons?

  I loved AI and you and I were both, we were on the fucking wall with AI.

• 1:47:20Speaker 04

  Deep, deep AI.

• 1:47:22Bill Simmons?

  Deep, deep defenders of AI.

• 1:47:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:47:23Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, he wasn't the, he was streaky, but not like, not like Maxey. Maxey's getting the ball off rebounds and you know he's gonna go 80 feet and he just does it. And the team seems like they were completely surprised by it each time. And then K, I mean, the stuff he's doing where he's really the only option. They just traded Jaden Ivey today. They finally punted on that.

• 1:47:45Speaker 04

  Playmaker, playmaker. I love, he leads with his chest. I love, I mean, can't say enough good things about that dude.

• 1:47:55Bill Simmons?

  And all the losing that Monty Williams year, just getting kicked in the nuts and kicked in the teeth for four months feels like made him and a couple of other guys in those team.

• 1:48:07Speaker 04

  So they have Herter now. That solves one of their shooting.

• 1:48:12Speaker 04

  Open questions.

• 1:48:13Bill Simmons?

  Maybe.

• 1:48:15Speaker 04

  Well, it addresses it.

• 1:48:16Bill Simmons?

  Maybe you flip Herter into something else.

• 1:48:19Speaker 04

  I still think that Michael Porter Jr. What, what?

• 1:48:22Bill Simmons?

  He doesn't play defense, though. Do you need defense on that team?

• 1:48:24Speaker 04

  I think that team has.

• 1:48:25Bill Simmons?

  Not that Herter does either.

• 1:48:26Speaker 04

  Plays enough team defense. They're strong. That's what Jalen Dern is for.

• 1:48:30Bill Simmons?

  After Porter fucked up that Celtics play a couple of weeks ago, when we just got a wide open three to tie the game, I was like, I don't know.

• 1:48:37Speaker 04

  All right.

• 1:48:40Bill Simmons?

  Here we go. Most controversial moment of the, of the column of the podcast. I don't even know. Am I doing a column or a podcast? The next two guys are number six and number five.

• 1:48:53Bill Simmons?

  Number six, Luka Doncic. Number five, Cooper Flag.

• 1:48:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, obviously.

• 1:49:02Bill Simmons?

  Obviously what? Say it.

• 1:49:06Bill Simmons?

  Obviously what?

• 1:49:06Speaker 04

  All you can do, I, I, I think there are many, many teams in the league that would value many of the players that we've already gone through.

• 1:49:19Speaker 04

  Higher than Cooper Flag.

• 1:49:21Bill Simmons?

  On a rookie deal, making like 11 million dollars a year at age 19.

• 1:49:26Speaker 04

  That's the argument.

• 1:49:26Bill Simmons?

  Doing things.

• 1:49:27Speaker 04

  That's the argument.

• 1:49:28Bill Simmons?

  Doing things at his age that nobody's done in the history of the league.

• 1:49:31Speaker 04

  That's the argument.

• 1:49:32Bill Simmons?

  Not even Kobe Bryant.

• 1:49:33Speaker 04

  Right. No, I get it.

• 1:49:36Bill Simmons?

  Not even Kevin Garnett.

• 1:49:37Speaker 04

  It is the evolutionary, you know, this is the version, this is how we've gotten so lucky as we've gotten older. The way that the league has developed, the way these kids come in more and more and more ready, like we went, lived through a whole history of, of kids that jumped straight from high school into the pros. And, and now you have to go through one year of college, but they're, they're very young in their first year of, of college because of the way that the.

• 1:50:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and he skipped a year of high school, so he was even a year younger.

• 1:50:08Speaker 04

  They're doing, they're all that reclass. I was kind of trying to think about it. Isn't that what it's called reclassifying or whatever?

• 1:50:14Bill Simmons?

  Well, he reclassed during the season because he went from being a really good rookie to a fucking animal in the last two months. I cannot believe what I wa, I watched the two Mavs games, the 49 pointer against Charlotte.

• 1:50:26Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:50:26Bill Simmons?

  And then I watched that other game the next morning.

• 1:50:29Speaker 04

  It was Houston, wasn't it?

• 1:50:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, 37, whatever he did. I cannot believe, I honestly cannot believe how much better he is than he was at the start of the year. I can't believe it. He has, I was texting with Legler about it because Legler did the Houston game. I was texting the next day. I was like, I don't understand. This guy now has a finishing move where he goes left, full speed, and does this craning lefty layup off the glass that he makes. Which by the way, it took five years for Jason Tatum to even have that shot. And he misses it like half the time, or he missed it before he got hurt. So he's got that as a finishing move. He has this hesitation move where it seems like he's going to the basket. He stops and then he keeps going that I haven't seen anyone stop yet.

• 1:51:13Bill Simmons?

  He's got this move where he goes into the paint, spins around and does a little one-handed, like 12 footer. He has that. He's a pull-up jumper already. And he's running the team. He's playing point forward for them. Jason Tatum couldn't do this until like year five. I'm dumbfounded by this. This guy was supposed to be this awesome two-way glue guy. Had some offense, but was just impactful all over. This guy's an elite offensive player already. Like, have you actually watched those games? The shit he was doing was like impossible.

• 1:51:45Speaker 04

  They couldn't defend him.

• 1:51:45Bill Simmons?

  Cooper flag case.

• 1:51:47Speaker 04

  Houston couldn't defend him.

• 1:51:48Bill Simmons?

  Houston had Amen Thompson on him and he was going by him.

• 1:51:52Speaker 04

  Because he can start and stop in a way. That pull-up jumper makes him, you have to respect it. Now he's by you and he's by you with both hands.

• 1:52:00Bill Simmons?

  Full speed lefty. He can fake the fully expected come up. He can go back, come up. He can do the lefty and then he can spin into the right hand and the, I just can't believe what I'm watching. On top of, he's a really good defensive player already, like really good.

• 1:52:15Speaker 04

  I think he's like fine defensively. I, that's the part of it that, that makes me.

• 1:52:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think he should be a stretch four, but they're playing him. He's guarding like guards half the time. He should be guarding like Pascal Siakam and Jalen Brown and people like that.

• 1:52:28Speaker 04

  I agree.

• 1:52:31Speaker 04

  That's the only, that would be the portion of it where, you know.

• 1:52:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, so what's interesting about this is Cooper Flag is five and Luca is six on this list. Luca makes five times as much money and he's seven, eight years older, right? They don't get Cooper Flag unless they fuck up this Luca thing. I was texting with our friend Jason Gallagher about this, diehard Mavs fan.

• 1:52:52Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:52:53Bill Simmons?

  And I was like, dude, you just have to admit this worked out.

• 1:52:59Bill Simmons?

  It was horrible. It traumatized the city. It almost ruined basketball in Dallas until you ended up with Flag.

• 1:53:07Bill Simmons?

  I would just rather have Flag. I think in a weird way, but he was like, that's fine, but we built this team. He was like, I see the case, but we built this team for Luca and we made the finals. And we had a chance to win with Luca. And he was saying, what bums out the Mavs fans because they love Luca, is that now Luca's on a mediocre team again, and now he's two years away from being where he was two years ago. And he just lost all this time. So I think they, they just really wanted Luca to win a title like they wanted Dirk. So I get it.

• 1:53:36Speaker 04

  All that's super fair. I agree with every, every single word that, that, that he said, especially the part about the Lakers still being two years away from being, having the right players around him for him to be the, the best version of himself. And I will say, having the, the good fortune of, of having great seats to see him, he, he's, he's in shape. He looks good.

• 1:53:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:59Speaker 04

  He looks, he moves, he's moving good. Now he was motivated because he knew he was going to get that triple double in the first half against Washington, but.

• 1:54:09Bill Simmons?

  Flag.

• 1:54:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:54:10Bill Simmons?

  Holy shit. He was 18 for the first two months of the year. I, I just can't believe what we're watching.

• 1:54:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:54:16Bill Simmons?

  You should not be able to do this before you're 20. You should not be able to run NBA teams playing out of position and getting every shot you want and doing all the things that he does.

• 1:54:24Speaker 04

  It's arriving with, with the brain is the thing. That, that's why you have to live with it.

• 1:54:30Bill Simmons?

  I also like that in two years, he's made himself so much better in all of these different ways. Clearly he just works his ass off on, on his game. And he's added all of these different things that I just don't even think he had to do, but what do I know? Number four, Anthony Edwards. Number three, Shay Gildes Alexander. Number two, Nikola Jokic. Number one, Victor Wembudiamma.

• 1:54:54Bill Simmons?

  Anything off on that final four for you?

• 1:54:56Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:54:58Bill Simmons?

  Stealth you could make if we were on first take and you wanted to just zag. You could do the, all right, you have Victor Wembanyama first. Is he gonna play 20 games in a row? Am I gonna get that?

• 1:55:12Bill Simmons?

  Am I gonna get nine months out of this guy? Is he gonna stay healthy? Is he gonna be healthy four years from now? You would do that thing. I'm cool betting on the seven foot seven guy who's the generational freak. I'm still gonna bet on that. Who's like 22.

• 1:55:26Speaker 04

  Well, and, and part of what should be encouraging for Spurs fans and for Wemby fans is you can see him putting on weight this season. He is, he has, you know, developed a little bit.

• 1:55:41Bill Simmons?

  But not in the Yao Ming, this actually feels like it might be hurting you way.

• 1:55:45Speaker 04

  He's still moving awesome. Like it's, it's making sense. So if that's, you know, the, the path that he's on at his height and his body can hold up and he can just grow in, you know, to becoming the, the, the version of the tough guy that, that he, I mean, he's already pretty tough. He's, he, he, he is showing us that he's up for, you know, guys getting into him, getting into his shit. I love, you know, how, um, Oklahoma City, uh, you know, he, he just enjoys torturing Chet. He, he's, he's made it a pet project of his. Uh,

• 1:56:20Bill Simmons?

  That's really why you wanted to drop, drop Chet into the twenties.

• 1:56:23Speaker 04

  Well, Wemby's.

• 1:56:25Bill Simmons?

  Wemby's declared war on Chet.

• 1:56:26Speaker 04

  And he's made him his bitch. I mean, I think Wemby pretty clearly he's done, done it, you know, successfully.

• 1:56:32Bill Simmons?

  Chet is a defending champion.

• 1:56:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's it. Not a lot of drama for the end unless you wanted to have a Jokic versus Alexander debate.

• 1:56:46Speaker 04

  For what? No.

• 1:56:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:48Speaker 04

  No, no.

• 1:56:48Bill Simmons?

  Not doing that. Um, okay. And before we go, cause I've had you for two hours. I had a great time, by the way.

• 1:56:55Speaker 04

  Thank you. I've enjoyed it. Did we somehow manage to not, uh, you don't have to have any British tabloids chasing you. Cause that was like, what was two years ago? We did the.

• 1:57:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's true. That's true.

• 1:57:07Speaker 04

  Talked about.

• 1:57:07Bill Simmons?

  I'd also like to shout out Cooper Flag's mom, long time diehard Celtics fan. Um, I would encourage you to read in the CBA agreement that, um, you don't have to sign a second deal with the team that drafted you. You could just take it to free agency and bet on yourself. And I don't think anything would be more meaningful to the Flag family and to the region of New England for him to play on the Boston Celtics with his second contract. So I'd like to shout out her. I hope she's doing great. Hopefully she'll come to All-Star Weekend. I can maybe get a meal with her and talk to her and maybe become friends with her.

• 1:57:39Speaker 04

  I don't want to prolong this show, but I am interested in how does Dallas kind of has to move up his timeline a little bit, doesn't it?

• 1:57:48Bill Simmons?

  With how he looks now?

• 1:57:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. You have Lively and you have Cooper Flag.

• 1:57:55Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:57:55Speaker 04

  What else?

• 1:57:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, Lively's out for the whole year.

• 1:57:58Speaker 04

  No, I understand, but like you're talking about timeline. You're talking about what are the assets? How are you going to build around this, this kid? What's the team?

• 1:58:08Bill Simmons?

  Can I ask you one question that I was looking at for the play-in bets?

• 1:58:12Speaker 04

  I'm listening.

• 1:58:14Bill Simmons?

  Dallas is 33 to one to make the play-in.

• 1:58:19Bill Simmons?

  Right now, hold on, let me find out. Right now, they are the 12 seed. They're 19 and 30. They're three games behind Portland, who has 27 losses and four games behind the Clippers. And watching Dallas, they're in all these games.

• 1:58:38Bill Simmons?

  Right? They, they barely lost to the Lakers. Minnesota beat them. They barely lost to Charlotte. They barely lost to Houston. They beat the Knicks. Gold State, they beat Utah twice. Like they're a 500 team with a guy who's getting better and maybe Davis comes back. I just thought 33 to one, I thought was crazy.

• 1:58:59Bill Simmons?

  What if Portland tanks?

• 1:59:01Speaker 04

  Is Davis coming back?

• 1:59:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't know.

• 1:59:03Speaker 04

  When's Kyrie coming back?

• 1:59:05Bill Simmons?

  Hopefully soon, unless they're tanking.

• 1:59:08Speaker 04

  They, they can't score at the end of games.

• 1:59:11Bill Simmons?

  He's trying.

• 1:59:12Speaker 04

  He, he singularly.

• 1:59:16Bill Simmons?

  Here's the other thing, the since, since, uh, since the start of this podcast where we've had multiple trades and we sorted out the 80 best trade value guys and even moved some of the list around a little bit, um, it seems like the Timberwolves have moved all of their forces into Giannis Island and they're trying to invade.

• 1:59:36Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 1:59:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that seems to be, yeah, that seems to be

• 1:59:43Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:59:44Bill Simmons?

  what's happening here.

• 1:59:47Bill Simmons?

  Where we have, they cut money there by getting rid of Conley. They have a little more flexibility and they seem to be rounding up. Now, what they would have to do to get Giannis, it would involve Randall, it would involve Nas Reed and Di Franschino probably to make their contracts work.

• 2:00:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:00:10Bill Simmons?

  They'd probably have to be a third team where somebody gets one of those guys. And you basically just try to end up with Giannis and Ant and Gobert, right? And just patch around, maybe get some buyout guys, but I would think that would be their plan. They have that Behringer who I really like too, that rookie.

• 2:00:26Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:00:27Bill Simmons?

  The French guy?

• 2:00:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:00:28Bill Simmons?

  Um, maybe he could be in the trade. They have some swaps, I guess they can do, but, um, my question is if Giannis says to the Bucks, I want a title for you. I'd like to play with Anthony Edwards and try to win another title. I've paid my dues here, I've been here 12, 13 years, I've been great for the community, I've been an awesome guy. Can you trade me to Minnesota? Does Milwaukee then have an obligation to do that?

• 2:00:56Speaker 04

  No.

• 2:00:57Bill Simmons?

  And that's how I feel too.

• 2:00:58Speaker 04

  No.

• 2:01:00Bill Simmons?

  They could say, well, try to do it.

• 2:01:01Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:01:02Bill Simmons?

  But they have to, the offer has to be solid enough.

• 2:01:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:01:10Speaker 04

  I mean, do, do we think that Portland?

• 2:01:14Speaker 04

  In their deal with Milwaukee, got back enough for Dame?

• 2:01:21Bill Simmons?

  What do you mean?

• 2:01:22Speaker 04

  When they traded Dame to Milwaukee.

• 2:01:26Bill Simmons?

  Portland got enough back. They got some kick ass Milwaukee picks for the end of the decade that they were kind of banking on. Hey, maybe this Yanis thing won't be working out five years from now. We'll have some picks. So that trade. Remember that big argument about their offer versus the Miami offer?

• 2:01:41Speaker 04

  That was never an argument. That was just Miami.

• 2:01:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, it was an argument for a lot of people who didn't follow basketball.

• 2:01:45Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:01:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So Minnesota. And then I'd never have thought Golden State has enough and I don't know where he'd want to go there. Like if he's getting traded, it's got to be to a place that wins the title. Cleveland, as we mentioned earlier, especially now that Memphis has this trade exception. Maybe they can stake salary there and figure out Mobley. And I still think it'll never come out if Boston's involved, but I'm still watching what Boston does.

• 2:02:12Speaker 04

  The East makes more sense to me than the West still because the West is so loaded and by my forecasting is going to remain loaded for a while yet.

• 2:02:21Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:02:21Speaker 04

  So that's where you put yourself into.

• 2:02:23Bill Simmons?

  Boston can go really stealth if they wanted to put Jalen on the table. Which as I'm on the record as saying Jalen and Tatum, I hope they retire as Celtics together. But I'm just saying, the Celtics could get the organization, it's basically Chisholm and Brad and nobody else would know. And if they really wanted to kick the tires on Jalen and Yanis as part of a package with some picks and then Milwaukee could send Jalen somewhere else like. You're at least having lunch about that and talking about that. If you and I were running the Celtics, we would probably have lunch. You would probably overeat.

• 2:02:57Speaker 04

  I would definitely overeat.

• 2:02:59Bill Simmons?

  And then, and then that's what happened. By the way, chicken parm last night was great.

• 2:03:02Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 2:03:03Bill Simmons?

  Kind of, kind of broke my carbs thing a little bit. Yeah.

• 2:03:06Speaker 04

  Cause you knew we're going to be together at the end of this week. You better get ready. We're not.

• 2:03:11Bill Simmons?

  I'm prepared to be disappointing.

• 2:03:15Bill Simmons?

  To be healthy as you look at me in disgust.

• 2:03:17Speaker 04

  We'll see. Wait till we see what comes to the table.

• 2:03:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:21Speaker 04

  Whether or not you can resist it.

• 2:03:22Bill Simmons?

  We'll be at Celtics Heat Friday and then Bob Cousy, the ceremony on Saturday for our school Holy Cross. We get to watch them dedicate the court and meet the Cougs. I'm so excited. And apparently maybe Jalen Coker.

• 2:03:35Speaker 04

  Hey, love that guy.

• 2:03:37Bill Simmons?

  Our guy Jalen Coker. The other thing is we're going to do our Super Bowl pick at the end of Thursday's episode. So it'll be like a 20 minute segment. You have Fairway Roland coming this week.

• 2:03:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:03:48Bill Simmons?

  You're recording. Get some coffee.

• 2:03:51Speaker 04

  I'll be good to go.

• 2:03:52Bill Simmons?

  Unlock your kid out of the closet. I have.

• 2:03:55Speaker 04

  We can golf.

• 2:03:56Bill Simmons?

  I have rewatchables just went up. Wild things. So you can find on Spotify, on Netflix, wherever you get your podcasts. Next week's episode, Ace Ventura.

• 2:04:04Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Great one.

• 2:04:07Bill Simmons?

  Pet Detective. That is our next episode on Monday.

• 2:04:09Speaker 04

  Iconic.

• 2:04:10Bill Simmons?

  That is on Netflix, by the way. Both of the Ace Ventura movies are on Netflix. So.

• 2:04:14Speaker 04

  You don't say.

• 2:04:15Bill Simmons?

  We have not done that one yet. So we.

• 2:04:17Speaker 04

  That's amazing.

• 2:04:18Bill Simmons?

  Bend that one out. Anyway, thanks to Gahow and Eduardo and everybody at The Ringer as well. Don't forget to read TheRinger.com for all of the updated stuff. Enjoy the 48 hours leading to trade deadline. House, thank you. See you in a couple of days.

• 2:04:30Speaker 04

  We did it. See you, buddy.

• 2:04:35Bill Simmons?

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• 2:05:18Bill Simmons?

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• 2:06:02Bill Simmons?

  and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters November 6. Get tickets now. Or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts. Or call 877-8-HOPE-NY. Or text HOPE-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.