Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All when Karen discussed the tragic murder of Polly Klaas and Georgia detailed the killing of Kitty Genovese. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and much more!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.

• 0:09Karen Kilgariff?

  When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.

• 0:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.

• 0:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.

• 0:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 0:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye.

• 0:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 0:46Georgia Hardstark?

  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 0:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 0:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 1:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello.

• 1:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:25Georgia Hardstark?

  To Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

• 1:27Karen Kilgariff?

  This, and you may know this already, but this is our Wednesday episode where we travel back in time to recap old episodes of this podcast. Then we return to the present. It is a very painful process.

• 1:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It is a painful process. Today, we're recapping painfully, episode 24, which we named, and 20 Justice for All. It's fucking classic. This came out on Thursday, July 7, 2016.

• 1:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So get ready to defy the laws of space and time because now we're all going to be day one listeners.

• 2:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, let's do it. Let's listen to the intro of episode 24.

• 2:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you want a podcast? Do you want to start a podcast?

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want, hey, do you want a podcast?

• 2:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 2:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi.

• 2:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi.

• 2:14Georgia Hardstark?

  We need a way to start this and end this that's like.

• 2:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That's clean.

• 2:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 2:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Distinctive. What if it was like 70s newscast, kind of like a. That'd be good, right? This just in.

• 2:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Instead, it's just me laying down on the love seat.

• 2:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, guys.

• 2:35Georgia Hardstark?

  You leaning back on the couch.

• 2:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I lean back on the couch like a, kind of like an old drunk hobo leans on a park bench. Right, Steven? Steven had to put his hand over his mouth. It was that accurate.

• 2:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so true.

• 2:48Karen Kilgariff?

  He's like, I'm seeing, it's as if my hat is tipped forward.

• 2:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and I'm leaning on this love seat like Mrs. Roper.

• 2:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 2:57Georgia Hardstark?

  On a fucking.

• 2:58Karen Kilgariff?

  If Mrs. Roper went and got some scissors and cut her caftan in half.

• 3:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 3:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause Georgia doesn't fuck around with full length anything.

• 3:06Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 3:06Karen Kilgariff?

  You're all about the leg.

• 3:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's true. I do show a lot of leg.

• 3:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, cause it's, you know why? That's summer Georgia in full effect.

• 3:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you whoever made that. I, I did a kind of rude thing. I posted the picture, Summer Karen in full effect on my Twitter page. And then after I did it, went, oh, I probably should have found out who made that.

• 3:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, right.

• 3:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't have the name.

• 3:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Man, fucking credit gives me so much stress.

• 3:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 3:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Like I won't, it's so hard to make sure that everyone gets credit and you don't want them to hate you and stop making shit.

• 3:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 3:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, here's the thing. You have a job that you go to every day.

• 3:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh.

• 3:46Georgia Hardstark?

  You have dogs, which everyone knows is very stressful. I have no day job. I mean, I work from time to time.

• 3:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You do stuff though.

• 3:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I have extreme anxiety, which causes me to constantly do things.

• 3:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 3:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is great.

• 3:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Mine causes me to constantly not do things. That's interesting.

• 4:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause you're like, I can't do this right. I'm not even, this is gonna suck. I won't do it.

• 4:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly. I freeze up. I have perfectionism and then I'm, yeah, I just go fuck it. I've, I spent my life saying fuck it essentially.

• 4:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, cause I'm, I don't have perfectionism, so I'm like, let's fucking try this and see what happens and then we'll learn from our mistakes and we can quit it if it sucks.

• 4:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the way to be.

• 4:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like if you do everything, like if at a, at a, at a B plus. You know, and, and no one else does anything else because they think they're gonna get a B.

• 4:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Then that rounds up to an A.

• 4:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Then I get a fucking A.

• 4:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yeah, girl. I like this.

• 4:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I have to rely on other people's perfection anxieties to just deliver mine.

• 4:40Karen Kilgariff?

  God, that's really smart.

• 4:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Did I tell you my grandma's, my grandma sang Bigger Dummies Than You.

• 4:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 4:47Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 4:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good.

• 4:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good and bad at the same time.

• 4:51Karen Kilgariff?

  My grandma's saying was, be quiet now.

• 4:54Georgia Hardstark?

  She Romanian?

• 4:56Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that's Irish.

• 4:57Georgia Hardstark?

  She was a vampire or something.

• 5:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, be quiet now.

• 5:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I hear it now. She was a gypsy. I only saw her once.

• 5:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 5:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, just try it. And if it sucks, you can just walk away from it.

• 5:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Girl, I'm about it. I mean, you were right about this podcast.

• 5:17Georgia Hardstark?

  But, oh, let's walk away from it?

• 5:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no. Like, just try it. Why don't we try it?

• 5:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's just do one and see how it goes. That's my whole motto.

• 5:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do one and see how it goes.

• 5:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very smart.

• 5:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Now, everyone's making these awesome crafts, which, by the way, I gave my fucking P O box on the Facebook. Is that a mistake?

• 5:35Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it's a P O box.

• 5:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, but, man.

• 5:39Karen Kilgariff?

  What, do you think someone's gonna go stand by the P O box and wait for you?

• 5:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:43Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that's the, the whole point of P O boxes is there's someone that works there. And if someone just starts standing by a P O box, they're like, hey.

• 5:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 5:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, weirdo with the kitchen knife, get the fuck out of here.

• 5:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm just, I don't know why. I'm just gonna always go with Vince. So anyone who's thinking about beating me up, I'm going with my big, tall husband,

• 6:02Georgia Hardstark?

  who will probably do nothing.

• 6:05Karen Kilgariff?

  A P O box would make you this nervous. See, this is like, we're, now we're opposite seas. Again, this is where I'm brave, where I would just be like, come at me. Give it your best.

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm terrified.

• 6:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, but who cares? I mean, you could take a nice swing at somebody.

• 6:24Georgia Hardstark?

  What a stupid way to die, though. Like, what, I feel like if I heard that, like, this girl who has a true crime podcast put her P O box up and got killed, what a fucking idiot. Why did she do that? That's what I would think.

• 6:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I wouldn't. P O, P O box is like the most vague, like, if it's a city, you don't even know if the person lives in that city. You just got the P O box.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true.

• 6:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, this is Los Angeles. There's so many people here.

• 6:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So, like, I almost wanna say millions.

• 6:53Georgia Hardstark?

  That sounds fucking right.

• 6:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I dare say.

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That sounds right. Okay.

• 6:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, and also no offense, but there's better P O boxes to stand next to.

• 7:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything was great up until you just said that.

• 7:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Better dummies than you.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So sad.

• 7:09Karen Kilgariff?

  There's so many better dummies in this town.

• 7:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 7:12Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 7:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 7:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't be sad. I meant that in a complimentary way.

• 7:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Is there one?

• 7:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No. But I mean, Justin Timberlake lives here somewhere. That's what I'm saying.

• 7:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 7:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what I mean.

• 7:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Go kill, don't kill Justin Timberlake, you guys. I was just gonna say, go kill him tonight.

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  No, don't kill.

• 7:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not okay.

• 7:29Karen Kilgariff?

  The people who kill are not influencible by these podcasts. We can't, they're not gonna be like, with their murder kit under the passenger seat and then be like, you know what, girls? You show me the way.

• 7:41Georgia Hardstark?

  No one diabolically listens to a podcast. People only, like, at least medium joyfully listen to podcasts. No one's like.

• 7:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Now we're baiting people. Now people are like, I'm gonna show her.

• 7:53Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no like Mr. Burns-esque podcast listeners sitting at his desk going, you know, with his fingers and like,

• 7:59Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 8:00Georgia Hardstark?

  He doesn't listen.

• 8:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-mm.

• 8:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Marge listens. Simpsons, this podcast always comes back to the Simpsons.

• 8:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Lisa totally is a fan. Lisa's on that Facebook page.

• 8:09Georgia Hardstark?

  NPR for sure.

• 8:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I saw, can I recommend a Netflix series that I watched all of in one day?

• 8:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Olive, always. Olive, always.

• 8:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, Olive. Uh, this is from our new section, Olives.

• 8:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Olives always.

• 8:27Karen Kilgariff?

  All of you. Um, it's called Marcella or Marcella. They pronounce it because they're British. So they'll do a fancy pronunciation that baffles me, as I've already proven.

• 8:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's with Anna Friel. It's super good. It's female homicide detective who's all screwed up as the, all the good ones are.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  We're always screwed up.

• 8:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I watched the whole season, which I think was eight episodes, maybe more, in a day. And it was so good. And there's a couple of people on the Facebook page who have recommended it.

• 8:59Georgia Hardstark?

  What's it called?

• 9:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Marcella is how it's spelled.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you watch it, Stu?

• 9:04Speaker 02

  I wanna watch it. I haven't seen it yet.

• 9:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I totally, you should watch it.

• 9:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I've never heard of it.

• 9:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really good. And it's like, um, I mean, do you like, do you like those kinds of procedurals? Like a Luther or a?

• 9:16Georgia Hardstark?

  What, what, uh, country of origin?

• 9:19Karen Kilgariff?

  England.

• 9:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Ye- yes?

• 9:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And no.

• 9:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 9:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It just depends. Sometimes I, sometimes I just-

• 9:29Karen Kilgariff?

  What do you need?

• 9:30Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 9:30Karen Kilgariff?

  What do you need?

• 9:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you know what I loved is the one, I'm not gonna remember the name, the one with the woman.

• 9:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes, that one.

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I, I love-

• 9:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Was she dead?

• 9:41Georgia Hardstark?

  No, she was a police detective and she was incredible.

• 9:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, Happy Valley?

• 9:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 9:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 9:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I loved Happy Valley. And then there was another one and I was just like, I can't with this. I don't care. I, it's, uh, I just don't know.

• 9:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe you need yours more character driven. Like Happy Valley is almost more about her family.

• 9:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Her trying to deal with just her shit.

• 10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I guess it was like, the, about her, I could legitimately see why she was fucked up and sad.

• 10:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And it wasn't like, just go get a fucking coffee and cheer up.

• 10:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Or like, you don't have to talk like this all, like, they didn't do those like dramatic bullshit things, like talking in dramatic voices and, and words that no one would ever fucking say. Not that I can understand everything that was said on that show, cause there's some thick accents, but-

• 10:25Karen Kilgariff?

  You watched the second season, right?

• 10:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know if I finished it yet.

• 10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, it's the best.

• 10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Anyways, yeah, sorry, go on.

• 10:30Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no. That's just my recommendation. There was, um, like one lone person was like, did anybody watch this? It's so good. So I found that on the Facebook page and I was like, I did, I loved it. There's, maybe there were two people actually, sorry. But I just wanted to, to tell more people. If, if people liked British procedurals, like a Luther or a, um, uh, I don't know.

• 10:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Dexter? Was that good?

• 10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 10:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You ever watched that?

• 10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I did not like Dexter.

• 10:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Never saw it.

• 10:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It was super cheesy. It's a different type of-

• 11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  procedural because it's, it was very heavy handed. It was also narrated, which I almost always hate.

• 11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So interesting. Was it like CSI?

• 11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It was actually, but yes.

• 11:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No interest.

• 11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It was CSI and, but Michael C. Hall is awesome. He's from Six Feet Under.

• 11:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah, of course. He's great.

• 11:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's like, the storylines are interesting cause it's serial killer stuff, but there was just a lot of like- I don't know. And it didn't do it the way I like it.

• 11:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I went to his house on 4th of July once.

• 11:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 11:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, now, this is a, we'll call this, this area is called Celebrity Center.

• 11:41Georgia Hardstark?

  It's called who does stock at a P O. Box besides Georgia? Let's talk about it.

• 11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Michael C. Hall's a good person.

• 11:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Michael C. Hall, for example. I know where he fucking lives, you guys. If you're thinking of killing me at my P O. Box, let me know and I'll give you Michael C. Hall's address.

• 11:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Good. Throw him under the bus. Or give, why don't you have your mail sent to his mailbox?

• 12:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. I can't wait to see what, like, what we start getting, though. Like, as much as I'm scared of dying, I'm also excited for, like, presents.

• 12:07Karen Kilgariff?

  For living.

• 12:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 12:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone, I, I don't even want to talk about it yet, but someone's made us lipsticks.

• 12:12Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 12:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, our flavor of lips, like a Karen Kilgariff lipstick and a Georgia.

• 12:17Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I can't.

• 12:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you even fucking go?

• 12:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm, I couldn't be more excited.

• 12:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. I don't even want to talk about it yet, because I just want to open the box with you. Should I open before and present to, present to you?

• 12:26Karen Kilgariff?

  However you like to do it.

• 12:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Or should I, should we open the stuff together?

• 12:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I have a feeling you have a very specific way you like to do a mail situation. Well, I mean, yeah, probably things in general.

• 12:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Um.

• 12:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, do you, would, do you like to have it be a surprise? Remember last time when I was afraid moths were gonna come out? That's like a thing. I like a surprise, but probably because you, I knew you knew everything about it.

• 12:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, yeah, we can do either way. I guess it's, I don't know. We can do anything. It might be fun to open it together.

• 12:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And neither of us know.

• 12:57Karen Kilgariff?

  What if we open it and then we have to fake our response?

• 13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Because we're not that stoked on it?

• 13:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Or like, you know, I used to work at Bio Bottoms, which was a children's natural fiber clothing company in my hometown.

• 13:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 13:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And the returns.

• 13:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Bio Bottoms?

• 13:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It was called Bio Bottoms. They made a shit ton of money.

• 13:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet.

• 13:12Karen Kilgariff?

  But the returns department used to come and tell us weird shit that they got.

• 13:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Like what?

• 13:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, just dog shit. Like, someone sent back a box that just had an old dried piece of dog shit in it. Yeah.

• 13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'll open it first and then.

• 13:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, as much as it would be fun to do that live. No, let's do it live.

• 13:35Karen Kilgariff?

  If we got, we should get like corners, like goggles, the full suit gloves.

• 13:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Hazmat.

• 13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm. Go hazmat with it.

• 13:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Or we should be open it all on video and post that somewhere.

• 13:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, make people pay to watch us open mail. That's a good idea.

• 13:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, why not pay to open free shit?

• 13:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 13:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we should do it on video. Here I go again with my fucking.

• 14:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Plans and schemes.

• 14:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Plans and schemes.

• 14:01Karen Kilgariff?

  You're the architect of this high rise building that we're.

• 14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 14:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Living in.

• 14:06Georgia Hardstark?

  We do this together. I'm just a.

• 14:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Conduit.

• 14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Fueled by too much coffee and Adderall.

• 14:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And the Invisalign.

• 14:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And the Invisalign I just took out of my mouth because I realized how awful it's sounding.

• 14:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I actually get great joy from watching you take your Invisalign out of your mouth. Because it looks like it's three times bigger than your mouth as you take it out. Like it's so, it's an event.

• 14:31Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. I, I feel like, and then there's like a, like a string of saliva attached to it. It's real sexy.

• 14:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fun.

• 14:37Georgia Hardstark?

  So you know what? Someone recently emailed me and said, uh, I listened to your podcast and you, thank you for talking about depression and anxiety. I have it and I've never done anything. Where do I even start to find a therapist? And I was like, so stoked this person wrote me because to me it's like fucking second nature. I've been doing this since I was 12. So I'm just like, what? And so I gave them psychology today has a great, uh, a great page. You put in your zip code and it tells you the psychologist in your area.

• 15:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how I found my therapist.

• 15:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I found most of my therapist through that.

• 15:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And I love my therapist. I've been with her for like 12 years.

• 15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, really?

• 15:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. Yeah. And that's, it was one day, I think I tried one other person because I told my friend who was a therapist. So I couldn't go to her. So she's like, just tell me what you want. I'll recommend. And I said, I need to talk to somebody that looks like Olympia Dukakis.

• 15:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, that was a mistake. You can't do it that way.

• 15:27Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 15:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't cast it in your mind and then pretend you're going to go act out scenes. They do have photos on thing. And I've definitely been like, that's it. She looks like a hippie.

• 15:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 15:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want to go to her.

• 15:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't want to go into a cloud of pot to talk about my problems.

• 15:41Georgia Hardstark?

  She doesn't know what it's like to just wear all this makeup all the time.

• 15:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't want someone who keeps interrupting my good stories, their stories of Woodstock. And the doors?

• 15:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that Psychology Today.

• 15:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Is this shit, that website?

• 15:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so in case you're too scared to ask.

• 16:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't be scared. Everyone's in therapy.

• 16:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And everyone needs to be in therapy.

• 16:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, Psychology Today is the frickin' best magazine.

• 16:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's good.

• 16:08Georgia Hardstark?

  You should get it.

• 16:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all about understanding yourself.

• 16:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, sure.

• 16:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry, that was so condescending.

• 16:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we're back. Georgia, would you like to apologize to British procedurals right now? Or Olivia Colman personally?

• 16:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Personally, yes. My apologies to Olivia Colman. You are a fucking, the queen of queens, literally, and I'm fucking obsessed with you. British procedurals, yes. It's still Karen's thing, but I, I support.

• 16:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm forcing your hand on that one. You're just, you're just being nice.

• 16:49Georgia Hardstark?

  A little bit. A little bit, sometimes, depends.

• 16:52Karen Kilgariff?

  We still have that P.O. box, right?

• 16:55Georgia Hardstark?

  We still have that P.O. box, and luckily, I don't pick up that mail anymore, if you can believe it.

• 16:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 17:00Georgia Hardstark?

  So feel free to go and hang out at the P.O. box, but also send us whatever the fuck you feel like sending us. We get wedding invites, we've gotten maple syrup, we've gotten hot dog earrings, paintings of Stephen. So much, like, I have a wall full of paintings of my cats, like, in my office right now.

• 17:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just my favorite thing.

• 17:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty great. You guys have been very generous over the years, but if you haven't been generous, you still have a chance. The P.O. box is myfavoritemurderinc@pobox39585, LACA 90039, so.

• 17:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the explanation I had to give to the guy at the post office to get my favorite murder, like, listed. He looked at me very strangely and I had to, you know, get my dimples going to be like, ah, everything's okay.

• 17:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fine. Don't worry. It's about something else.

• 17:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It's cute. Don't worry about it.

• 17:54Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, and as if that would be the creepiest thing that's ever happened at a P O box. Come on.

• 17:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 18:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Grow up.

• 18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. So this is when I first share my grandma Molly's saying, bigger dummies than you, which makes me so happy. I was just in an episode of the therapy podcast, Your Mental Breakdown, and I talk about this saying specifically and how much it means to me that it's become part of our lore because it's just like memorializes my grandma and I love that.

• 18:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And it also just lets people know that you can have a little wider perspective when you're feeling insecure, when you're feeling like you have self doubt, that like you have to think about what's gone on in the world for the last couple of thousands of years and how dumb a lot of people have been and they, they weren't insecure.

• 18:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And they've accomplished everything. So like, you can fucking do it too.

• 18:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Get out there with your talent and your brains, please.

• 18:50Georgia Hardstark?

  This isn't the same, but my friend Crystal is a Pilates instructor and I had like this toenail surgery mishap and you know, I love my feet. They're so cute. And I was like bitching to her about how my toe is ruined. And she goes, Georgia, have you not seen other people's feet? She's like, I see people's feet all the time. She's a Pilates instructor. I promise yours are still like on top. And I just stopped caring about the toe thing. Like it really helped me. I forgot that other people have hideous feet.

• 19:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I love Crystal.

• 19:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And so even mine, I mean, she really did it for me.

• 19:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Grandma Molly and Crystal, high fives all around. Everyone's doing an incredible job. It's very important to have other people help you keep perspective. You can't do it for yourself all the time.

• 19:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Shame thrives in the shadows, right?

• 19:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 19:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what Brene Brown says. So fucking scream that shit to the ceiling.

• 19:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Might as well.

• 19:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And let your friends and your grandma talk you down. So Karen, this is when you tell your like legit classic, I mean, awful hometown.

• 19:54Karen Kilgariff?

  A true hometown of mine.

• 19:55Georgia Hardstark?

  A true hometown. I mean, I, I don't know why, like re-listening and remembering that you worked with Polly Klaas's mother. I completely forgot that. I mean,

• 20:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 20:07Georgia Hardstark?

  This is such a hometown for you.

• 20:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and it's that kind of thing where like when you thought of the idea of people sending in their hometowns, the idea is there are so many people that have like these kinds of connections. It didn't happen to you. It didn't happen in your family, but it happened in a way that affected you. It's like Michelle McNamara in I'll Be Gone in the Dark, where it's like, these things happen around us and it affects us. And watching how it affects other people affects us. And if you're an empathetic human being, you know, the fact that these senseless murders happen, there is a ripple effect and that ripple effect matters and people, there is the tragedy and there's the part that shuts people down entirely.

• 20:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And then there's the part where then people become detectives, they become forensic scientists, they become victims advocates. Like, you know, the ripple effect isn't, sometimes can actually end up doing good, which is a, a pretty cool thing that I think as this podcast progressed, we started to get a handle on where it went less from the salacious kind of, oh, Ted Bundy, blah, blah, blah, you know, 90s attitude that we came up with. And then it turned into like this, this is real, these are human stories.

• 21:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And the fact that like, for a lot of us, these stories have stuck with us in a way that we're not allowed to talk about because we're not involved and we're not, you know, it is the victim's story. It is their family. We're not that. We're not trying to say that like, you know, boo hoo us, but like they've stuck with us and in our heart in a way that we've never been able to get out because people don't talk about this. And I feel like we've given people a platform to talk about it and still acknowledge that they care about it, even though they're not directly involved.

• 21:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And I mean, there's no better proof of that than web sleuths, people that are online actually doing that work that could actually get cold cases solved. Like, that's real. And that is, has nothing to do with like, the, the media aspect of it. It's like the people going and trying to help get the job done.

• 22:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the Doe Network. Yeah, all of that. It's incredible.

• 22:18Karen Kilgariff?

  It's incredible.

• 22:19Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Well, let's listen to Karen's hometown story, the murder of Poli Class.

• 22:28Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 22:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 22:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 22:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 23:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 23:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.

• 23:32Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.

• 23:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.

• 23:41Georgia Hardstark?

  So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.

• 23:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price.

• 23:48Georgia Hardstark?

  They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time. There's no filler, every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.

• 23:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.

• 24:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having. Sorry, everyone, when it's like sunny and gorgeous year round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie Lay in the Sun, and the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 24:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Visit article.com/murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 24:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 24:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 24:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That means crisp weather and soft layers.

• 24:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.

• 24:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Bombas has your favorite footwear for fall, including new suede moccasins with cushy soles, shearling lining and water-resistant suede, plus soft slippers, slides and booties.

• 25:05Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat-wicking sports socks and dressier options for weddings.

• 25:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house, I wear them to bed, and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 25:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to Bombas.com/MFM and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 25:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash MFM, code MFM at checkout.

• 25:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 25:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's going first this week?

• 25:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's you.

• 25:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Skipper times. Come back to us, skippers.

• 26:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 26:01Karen Kilgariff?

  If it's mine this week, if I go first, um, I've, uh, oh, I've been, this past week has been quite crazed.

• 26:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want me to go first?

• 26:13Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no, I can go. But I just want, I just need a little ramp up of, I had plans and schemes about what I was gonna do and then realized I needed to do more work, uh, like really dig in and do some serious research. Cause that's the thing is sometimes you go to talk about, so I wanna do Ted Bundy, because I'm, uh, three quarters of the way through that Anne Rule book, The Stranger Beside Me, which is amazing. There's other people on the Facebook page reading it. Um, so I love that, that we're reading it at the same time. But I, when I do it, it should be comprehensive and not, you know, half-assed. Cause he is, he's pretty much one of the most famous serial killers of our time.

• 26:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I like sometimes when you will like pick a part of that story or pick, you know, you don't have to tell. Him from start to finish, but like, you know, the coed murders that he did.

• 27:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, if you pick a thing from it, or how Richard Ramirez got caught, I think that was an amazing story on its own.

• 27:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll say what I'm passionate about, about Ted Bundy. But no, when I do it, it's gonna be a three hour presentation.

• 27:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 27:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll just take a nap.

• 27:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Just read the book on the podcast.

• 27:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly. In kind of a slow, low voice, where people are just like, alright. I was trying to get through my work day, but whatever you feel like doing is fine.

• 27:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, this podcast has changed.

• 27:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a bummer. No, so I figured I would go back to my roots and I'm going to do my hometown murder, which is the most famous murder from my hometown, which is the Polly Klaas murder.

• 27:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, girl.

• 27:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And the other reason I'm telling this is because not only was it a firsthand experience, I didn't live in my hometown when she was kidnapped. But I lived in San Francisco and I would go home for holidays and I was back and forth all the time. But Polly Klaas's mother is a woman named Eve, and Eve was my boss at the last job I had when I lived in Petaluma, which was at Byr Bottoms, the natural fiber children's clothing.

• 28:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Dun, dun, dun. Comes back around.

• 28:25Karen Kilgariff?

  So I actually didn't mean to make that reference, but then I was doing it and I was like, oh, I'm probably doing this on purpose, consciously. But it was very strange because it's, there's a lot of, a lot of the times we look and we research these stories, and it's these places that are like, you know, when we, when we talk about like the police messing up an investigation or things, you know, things getting screwed up or whatever, a lot of times it's because it's towns that have never had a crime

• 28:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:53Karen Kilgariff?

  to that degree, a murder or kidnapping or something where people don't have the experience and most of their career as a cop is pulling people over, you know, giving people like DUIs and stuff.

• 29:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And it's before the internet, so you don't really experience, I mean, now we can. And read about other crimes in other cities ad nauseam.

• 29:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and people and all police stations are and cops are more connected because of the internet. So that's like that whole East Area Rapist, the Golden State Killer thing where there were, you know, there were police departments who are keeping information from each other. They were the ones that wanted the collar. That's it's like all of that in the way that, you know, that criminal science is kind of developing because of the internet. So, um, so my hometown is Petaluma, California, and it is one of those towns where, uh, when I was growing up there, I think it, the population was somewhere around thirty two thousand. So it was a small, um, farm town, basically.

• 29:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So the, the main town itself, there was like the downtown area, the east side had like more of like the newer development tract homes. Um, kind of everyone on the east side had like a two story house. Um, but on my side, on the west side, that was out where all the dairy and chicken ranches were. So that's, I grew up five miles outside of town. And, uh, so we basically were, it was the country. And so when we like, when I was growing up, we didn't have cable.

• 30:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 30:23Karen Kilgariff?

  We only had four channels. We only got four channels on our TV and we couldn't get pizza delivered to our house. We live too far out of town. And that was how a lot of kids I knew grew up. It was just country.

• 30:36Georgia Hardstark?

  That just seems like I can't imagine being that far, like as someone who grew up literally with like shared walls with other apartments.

• 30:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I just can't even imagine living in that much space.

• 30:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's, it's weird. It's like, you know, the, we didn't have sidewalks. We didn't have, we didn't have, um, street lights.

• 30:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 30:57Karen Kilgariff?

  So at night, I think now they do on the street that I grew up on, but like at the time, like there was, when you drove at night out where I grew up, it was pitch black.

• 31:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't even know what that looked like. I have never seen the stars like that unless I'm camping or something.

• 31:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so fun. When I go to my dad's house for like holidays, I get out of the car and I stand in his driveway and they'll be like, come on crazy. Like, it's like, it's stars from like horizon to horizon.

• 31:23Georgia Hardstark?

  People who aren't in LA or New York or a big city don't, there's no stars because there's so much light pollution that you just can't see.

• 31:29Karen Kilgariff?

  We can never see stars here.

• 31:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Never.

• 31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And the, and people that live in like, oh my God, if you live in like Kansas or like. Somewhere that's like kind of low population and and no light pollution.

• 31:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 31:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Dang.

• 31:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Dang dude.

• 31:45Karen Kilgariff?

  We used to lay out at nights in the summertime, our next door neighbor, the Withingtons, had a pool. And we would sometimes have like a slumber party where we'd all lay in sleeping bags next to their pool. And we would lay on their chaise lounges and look up and there would just be shooting stars all night long. We just, that's all we did was go, there's one, there's one, there's one. It was awesome.

• 32:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's amazing.

• 32:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So anyway, that's basically the feel of this town. This was the kind of town where, and I think I've told the story before in the show, but like in my town, at one time, a guy on the street tried to purse snatch a lady's purse. And everyone on the sidewalk chased him up the street.

• 32:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 32:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's that, everyone knows each other, everyone's from there, people like stay there, grow up there, stay there, raise their kids there. There's generations and generations of like ranching people, of all kinds of people. So it's cool. It's, I feel, now I feel lucky. When I was growing up there, I was like, get me out of here. I want to go to Manhattan.

• 32:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 32:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So when this happened, it happened, it was a little house that was on the, a little walnut park that was, I think it's Walnut Park, a little park that's in the kind of city center. And it's really cute. My friend Heidi Peterson's mom actually had a house. So it's basically a park in the center and then the, you know, four streets squaring around it.

• 33:15Georgia Hardstark?

  So it wasn't rural, it wasn't in the middle of nowhere.

• 33:17Karen Kilgariff?

  No, they lived downtown Petaluma.

• 33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 33:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So they lived walking distance, like the main part of downtown is like Petaluma Boulevard and Western. And that's where like the really old buildings, the old two and three story buildings are. They lived probably 10 blocks from that part of town.

• 33:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 33:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So, but still, and this was, this happened in 1993. But even then, this was the kind of town where people did not lock their front door.

• 33:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You just didn't, there was no reason to.

• 33:53Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I, it seems like such a like what everyone says, like you didn't lock your door, but like, we didn't, I don't think you did. It's how like.

• 34:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It was, I think that's also that, that's that thing of like people as, as we get older and as this kind of like 2020 generation grows up.

• 34:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 34:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's that thing of like, now we just know what happens to other people.

• 34:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Our parents didn't do it because they came from a time when you didn't have to. We do it as adults because we.

• 34:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Because we know the possibility.

• 34:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 34:21Karen Kilgariff?

  They didn't understand the possibility as much, I think.

• 34:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:24Karen Kilgariff?

  But also in these small towns, that, it just didn't happen there. So it wasn't like, you're like, well, we should be careful anyway. It'd be like, don't be weird.

• 34:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, there's no reason. So on October 1st, 1993, Polly was having a slumber party with two of her friends. And Eve was in the front of the house. Her mom was in the front of the house. And somebody came in their back door, walked into her bedroom. And the, the rumor is that he said, which one of you lives here? Now, I know a bunch of small town rumors about this case. And they could completely be bullshit, but I'm basically just telling you this.

• 35:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I want to hear those. Wait, so how old was she?

• 35:10Karen Kilgariff?

  She, at the time, was 12.

• 35:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, and so were they sleeping already? They were all awake?

• 35:16Karen Kilgariff?

  They were awake and like doing slumber party stuff.

• 35:19Georgia Hardstark?

  And the mom was awake and everything?

• 35:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 35:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 35:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So he tied the friends up first and put sleep, pillowcases over their head. And they, then he took her out of the house. And that he told them to count to a thousand or he'd kill them.

• 35:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 35:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So they, once they heard him go, they got free and then ran to the front of the house and said someone took Polly.

• 35:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Good for them.

• 35:43Karen Kilgariff?

  So, uh, the other thing is Dave Anthony, the co-host of The Dollop.

• 35:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 35:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, my first comedy boyfriend. When we lived in San Francisco, he still worked at the bank in his hometown, which is Novato, the town next, like, the town next to my town.

• 35:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 36:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Going south to San Francisco. And his boss at that bank, his daughter was one of those two girls. So when this shit kicked off, it was like everyone you knew was affected in some way.

• 36:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone you knew knew a person, everyone you knew, like, my sister's best friend, Adrienne, who is basically like my sister too, she, she pulled out a photo album one time because she also worked at Bio Bottoms. That job was actually really awesome. It was like, paid you way more than minimum wage.

• 36:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 36:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It was, and we basically just sat there from like six in the morning until two in the afternoon and took calls and took orders. And so you could actually make kind of a good living.

• 36:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And, and then have the rest of your day done. So she was like a young mother. She worked there with me. She pulled out a photo album one time of, uh, there was, somebody had a baby shower and everybody was there and Eve brought Polly to that baby shower. So this girl was like, it's that thing where it's not just, oh, a girl from our town.

• 36:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Karen Kilgariff?

  We all feel so, everybody knew this family.

• 37:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit. That's like, that's so crazy that when there's this like, and I've noticed this with hometown murders that are all like, my brother's best friend from college, or it's always someone, you know, it's not just the hometown murder, the thing that happened in their hometown. It's like a thing that could have been them, or they knew the people, or they affect, you know, affected them somehow.

• 37:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally.

• 37:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So interesting.

• 37:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and that, I think that's also the thing that ties us into it is because, like, I remember the first time I went home, my sister called me to tell me that it happened. And the first time I went home, I drove, so to get off the freeway, I have to drive up Pedaluma Boulevard.

• 37:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And then my parents now live, my dad lives in town. They finally, of course, when we graduated from high school and moved out, that's when my parents moved into town.

• 37:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 37:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And got cable. And ordered pizza.

• 37:50Georgia Hardstark?

  They didn't have cable until you left for college?

• 37:53Karen Kilgariff?

  No. No, I, my, my friends would talk about the Brady Bunch. That was like on Channel 44, which was like, oh, that's the San Francisco station that like, other people have.

• 38:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:03Karen Kilgariff?

  We just had dipshit Gilligan's Island. Anyway.

• 38:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not shaming you. It's just like, it's such an interesting fact of your life.

• 38:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's so weird. And also because my dad's a fireman, which is this classic move of firemen, which was, we have cable in the firehouse. We don't need that shit. Cause so he saw all the terrible stuff that cable provided. And he was like, I'm keeping that away from my kids.

• 38:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And yet, it didn't make a fucking difference. Look at you now.

• 38:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at the things I'm talking about and how much I say the F word.

• 38:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It has no, it had no bearing on your life at all.

• 38:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it pushed me the other direction.

• 38:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably.

• 38:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's why I'm a Satanist. Just kidding, dad. He's not listening to this. So anyway, what the first time I came home, after my sister told me about it, I'm pretty sure it was for Thanksgiving.

• 38:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Was it, or maybe it was somewhere in the middle of November. The entire town, because her, Polly's favorite color was purple. The entire town and every fucking car had a purple bow on it. Like the, like a purple ribbon, like the yellow ribbon for soldiers. There was purple ribbons for waiting for Polly to get found.

• 39:09Georgia Hardstark?

  How long had she been gone by that point?

• 39:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that, she got kidnapped on October 1st.

• 39:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 39:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And so this was probably three weeks. It was everywhere. And it was like, it gave me the chills. By the time I got to my parents house, I was crying.

• 39:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 39:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It was so heavy. Then my sister, who loves to be this person, started telling me all the stuff that she heard. And apparently, so that happened the night of October 1st. The next day, they had to tell all the kids at Petaluma Junior High. Cause she was in, I believe, 7th grade.

• 39:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And the, she was, is the beginning of 7th grade. Like, if it was October, she'd probably only been in school for a couple of months.

• 39:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:50Karen Kilgariff?

  They made the announcement that she was missing. And they had flyers that said, have you seen me? And they said, after school, we want you all to hand these out everywhere you can. The kids got, took the flyers and all got up and left school. Right that moment and went out into the town.

• 40:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my, are you crying?

• 40:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Started that, my sister told me that story and I sobbed for like 10 minutes straight. Cause it's like these kids, this was a girl that was their friend. This was the girl they had a crush on. This was like a real person, a human being, that someone just fucking took out of her room.

• 40:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's so brazen that it's.

• 40:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a nightmare.

• 40:29Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, it's even scarier that it's just like not.

• 40:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Other circumstances, like she was alone, or you know, her parents weren't home or something.

• 40:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly.

• 40:40Georgia Hardstark?

  How do you protect yourself?

• 40:41Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't blame anything. Yeah, exactly. And, and also that, yeah. It's just, it's every parent's nightmare. It's every kid's nightmare.

• 40:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So, the young, the young children of that class in Petaluma High, Petaluma Junior High, I've always had just this, like, the biggest warm spot in my heart for them because also it was just like, we don't give a fuck, like, put us on detention, what are you gonna do? We are gonna go do everything we can to help find her.

• 41:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and how can you sit through the rest of the school day? I mean, I get it.

• 41:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'm sure, you know, but it's just, it was kind of just a beautiful, incredibly sad thing. And the whole town took it that way. I mean, everybody, you know, they, they, uh, so Winona Ryder is from my hometown.

• 41:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 41:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And she, I think she also grew up, like, out in the country like I did. And she went to Petaluma Junior High and Petaluma High School. And she, uh, came back and she made the announcement when they were still looking for her. So they ended up finding her, or no, they,

• 41:47Karen Kilgariff?

  they ended up, like, making an arrest, uh, near the end of November, the beginning of December. So, somewhere in there, like, at the end of November, Winona Ryder went on TV and made an announcement in national news, saying, this girl's missing. If you've seen her, we love her, she's part of the community, this is my town. Like, all the shit where, you know, I'm sitting in an apartment in San Francisco, watching it, being like, this is so weird, this is my, this is where I grew up, this is my whole life. And like, and it's everyone going like, yeah, this is, this is our girl, like, we have to find her. Someone has to do something. So.

• 42:25Karen Kilgariff?

  The horrible part of all of it is these, the policemen, the peddled police actually immediately called in the FBI. They did all that stuff that, uh, we talked, we talked about like, there's other, or Nevada, that other murder, that young girl, where they just immediately called the FBI, like they know they're in over their head.

• 42:49Karen Kilgariff?

  They do the whole missing persons thing, but the problem was the night that it happened, when the APB went out, it went out on the sheriff's channel, which was channel, um, one. And that night, there was some Sonoma Valley police officers that found, so a woman was babysitting at her boss's house, and she saw a car that was on her boss's private road. And so she called the police and said, I don't know who this guy is, but there's a car sitting down there, it's stuck in a ditch, and someone needs to come. So it was the, from, from what I saw on Wikipedia, it said Sonoma Valley Police.

• 43:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm not sure if that's accurate, or what area they were in. Yeah. But it was, it was somewhere kind of in the rural part. Um, so it all goes, kind of starts going by county. So it might have been Sonoma County Sheriff, Sonoma County Police, whatever. But they called the police to go out there, and the police who went were on channel three. This was before they had united all of the APB channels. Oh, God. So if the APB went out for the sheriff's department, it only went out to the other sheriffs on channel one, I guess. Fuck. Now they have it, because of this kidnapping and this murder, they changed all of that. So the second an APB goes out in 911, whatever thing like that, everybody hears it on all of those channels.

• 44:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But it wasn't like that then. So these two cops go up and they check this guy out, they don't know, they don't like how he looks, they don't like where he is, they don't, they're asking him a bunch of questions, he's got an open container, he's clearly been drinking, he's got leaves in his hair, he's got shit on him. And but they searched the car. There's nothing going on. There's nothing in the car. So there's nothing they can do. They told they really didn't like they just the feel of it. Knowing nothing about what was going on, they didn't like him. But they told the um, and this is gonna sound blamey, but it's it's one of those things where it's like you. It's better to overdo it than not do anything at all.

• 44:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 44:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they told the uh, property owner.

• 45:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You need to make a citizen's arrest so we can arrest this guy because we can't. There's nothing that's going on. That we can do anything about because this is a private road. It's your property. So you need to come out and say. I want uh, you're under citizen's arrest and then we can take him away. And the property owner was like, I don't want to do that.

• 45:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So they.

• 45:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is understandable because then he knows where she lives.

• 45:25Karen Kilgariff?

  That's exactly right.

• 45:26Georgia Hardstark?

  The minute she, you know, he gets let out.

• 45:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So. So they have to let him go.

• 45:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:33Karen Kilgariff?

  But what they did was they did. They basically did every little piece. This is like now the opposite of most of the stories we hear. These cops did every little piece of paperwork they possibly could about this guy. They took his name. They took all the information about his car, where they were, the report and everything. And they filed the thing. It's called like an F1 file or something like that. And it was the one thing that they could basically do was was fill out this um. Uh, what is it called? It's called an. It doesn't really matter. It's like F, an F1 card or something like that. That basically says.

• 46:12Karen Kilgariff?

  This was an event that happened that the police got called to that we don't like, but there's nothing we can do, but it happened and we want people to know.

• 46:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So they did that immediately. And then when did they find out that that's who that was?

• 46:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, it was an FI card, a field interrogation card.

• 46:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 46:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So they have all his information. They have the car information and what happened. Sorry, what was the question?

• 46:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That makes sense. So when did they realize who it was? Or were you getting that? I thought that's what you meant.

• 46:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. So no, the so once they left. They don't know. On November 28th, so then it was basically two, two months later.

• 46:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That same property owner is inspecting her property after loggers partially cleared the property of trees and she discovers items that make her think that they might have matched those used in the kidnapping.

• 47:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 47:00Karen Kilgariff?

  So the sheriff's department goes out there and they find a torn pair of ballet leggings that matched by the FBI crime lab to the other part of the leggings that were taken as evidence the night of the kidnapping. So they basically, the, the theory is that he had already taken her out of the car and hidden her out in these bushes while, while, and then went back to the car. Then the cops pull up and he's just like, yeah, you can look at any shit that I want because she's tied up in the bushes over there. They, they don't know whether or not he, when they arrested this guy, so this guy's named Richard Allen Davis.

• 47:41Karen Kilgariff?

  He has, he is on par with Charles Manson in how many times he has been arrested, been in jail, like the worst record, miles long. He wouldn't tell them anything. He wouldn't tell them the, the events. Once he confessed that he's the one that, that killed her, he didn't, he wouldn't give them details of anything. So they would try to walk him through it and he just wouldn't say what happened or what he did or anything. He just admitted, like they had all the enough evidence to bring him to trial.

• 48:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And he basically was like, yeah, I did it.

• 48:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 48:18Karen Kilgariff?

  But he didn't, he didn't tell them, he didn't, they don't know if she was murdered that night.

• 48:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:23Karen Kilgariff?

  They don't know if he kept her for longer, but she wasn't found, her body wasn't found there. Her body was found off of the 101 freeway, pretty far north up in Cloverfield. Which is like, it's so weird too. Like when I, you hear all these things, like these are the towns where we played, we played against them in softball in high school. It's like the town you would go to, we would go there on our way to Blue Lake on our way to vacation.

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Like every summer.

• 48:50Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'm picturing places in Orange County and I can, I can make sense of that.

• 48:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So it's just like, you're just thinking, as you drive up, it's also rural up there anyway, but as you drive up, you just look out and somewhere off the side of the highway, there was a little girl's body buried.

• 49:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I hate it.

• 49:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really awful.

• 49:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Essentially, they, the three-strike law was put into place after this case happened. Um, because this guy had such an insane record where it was like, you can't just get arrested for a ton of terrible shit, like 50 times in your life.

• 49:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And not have, and just keep getting out.

• 49:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And keep doing stuff like this. Like, he, he was, um, he was pretty awful. So he admitted to strangling her to death. Um, but that's all the information that he would give.

• 49:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder why he wouldn't, because he was toying with them? He would think that if he had gotten them, sorry, am I interrupting you?

• 49:48Karen Kilgariff?

  No, not at all.

• 49:48Georgia Hardstark?

  You would think that if he had not killed her before the cops came, he would have wanted them to know that so he can like taunt them almost.

• 49:58Karen Kilgariff?

  He was super weird. So when they, when they put him on trial, he did a bunch of weird shit. He flipped off like the jury, like he was Manson in that way.

• 50:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Where he, it was stuff like, before they arrested him, in my town, there was, the rumor was that the father did it.

• 50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, fuck.

• 50:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was because they were like, he's got, you know, he owes money to the, he owes money for gambling, he's this, he's that. And the father was on TV constantly. If you remember anything from this case, you remember Mark Klaas being on TV and talking about her. So I think a lot of people in my town, their reaction to that was like, it seems like you're enjoying this publicity a little too much.

• 50:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, looking back, that poor guy.

• 50:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 50:43Georgia Hardstark?

  What an awful thing to say.

• 50:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, that's small-town gossip.

• 50:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 50:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I mean? Where everyone's looking for the answer.

• 50:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And so it's easy to get a target on your back.

• 50:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 50:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, and also it just, it, it's, it's one thing to be on the news crying and being like, I need my daughter back. But I don't know, there, I, it was easy to kind of put that on him.

• 51:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I think it would, he- He was a zealot, but I mean, you know, that's, it's that thing of like, we don't know how people grieve.

• 51:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 51:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And, and he could be the kind of person that's like, I just need to do something with myself.

• 51:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. Look at, um, uh, Nicole Simpson and, uh, Ron Goldman's dad.

• 51:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:20Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, that went out of his mind.

• 51:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who's to say how, how you would act or how it would be. Here's the good news, uh, if any, about any of that. There's a, there's now, they took the, um, there was this little church that in this weird part of the road where I go to go to my dad's house. And they took that, and that's now called the Polyclass Center for the Performing Arts. Cause she was big into theater and she wanted to be an actress. And that was why it meant so much that Winona Ryder came back and talked about her.

• 51:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It was all very sweet. So they've kind of dedicated that to like kids, you know, making sure kids like, I guess, have a place to perform. And I don't know, it's for that part. It's very sweet and positive. Um, and the thing about they basically, all the things that got fucked up in the beginning of, with through communication, they actually did stuff about.

• 52:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. Yeah, that's great.

• 52:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the APB thing and the three strikes law, there like a lot of good things came out of that.

• 52:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's amazing.

• 52:22Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, um, Richard Allen Davis actually had to get put into solitary because he was getting beaten up so much. So God bless, like that jailhouse justice.

• 52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:35Karen Kilgariff?

  They couldn't, they couldn't wait to beat this man up for killing this girl.

• 52:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I want to say good, but at the same time, it's, you can't, can't say that.

• 52:45Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no, yeah, there's no.

• 52:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Clean conscience.

• 52:47Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no good, but, uh, they actually, and he's on death row. He got the death sentence.

• 52:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So he's still alive now?

• 52:55Karen Kilgariff?

  He's still alive because California doesn't ever really execute anybody. So that's just, it's people sitting on death row, but his lawyers actually tried to say, um, they try, they, they have tried to, um, get, uh, where's that, where's this part? They basically tried to say that, that it's torturing him by making him wait to find out when he's going to be executed.

• 53:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 53:19Karen Kilgariff?

  They tried to make that argument that it's like, that it's, um, What do you call that?

• 53:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's called inhumane, what's it called?

• 53:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I don't know. Something like, it's something along those lines. Or it's just like, when you, when I read the paragraph, I was just like, you gotta be fucking kidding. Who would actually have the balls to say that out loud?

• 53:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Sometimes, sometimes I get really mad at lawyers. I don't, I don't want to start the whole like shit talking that we do about cops sometimes because I know it's complicated. And you promised to do these things and you're, and uphold the law. But sometimes I'm just like, I just don't know how they live with themselves sometimes when they're defending someone who's a monster.

• 53:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly.

• 53:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And, and doing the best that they can to, to, to get them off? I guess it's not, I guess you just want to get them a fair trial.

• 54:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it must be hard. I would never want to be a lawyer, ever.

• 54:11Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 54:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, cruel and unusual pun.

• 54:14Georgia Hardstark?

  There it is.

• 54:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's the one we were looking for.

• 54:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 54:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, yeah.

• 54:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's sad.

• 54:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's mine. I, I actually had a lot of guilt for not doing this story earlier because it was, it's my real hometown murder. Cause I knew, like I was, it was really a part of my life. But then also it feels bad to talk about, like, I actually hesitated in saying her mom's name because I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to, anything.

• 54:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, Karen, you started crying and I don't think you've ever done that in any of them before.

• 54:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think I have either.

• 54:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's important and I don't think you should feel bad at all.

• 54:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Also, there was, this is, there's another little girl that got killed in my town that no one talks about because she was black. Her name's George, uh, Georgia Moses. And that story is really sad and awful. I'll do it a different time, but that actually gets brought up a lot in tandem with Poli Class because it's like, Poli Class was a beautiful little girl who was like, the, you know,

• 55:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Blonde.

• 55:09Karen Kilgariff?

  She was, no, she wasn't blonde, but she was,

• 55:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Say she was blonde.

• 55:12Karen Kilgariff?

  She, but it's that thing of like, you know, the press loves like a beautiful little martyr like that.

• 55:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And then when it's a story of a girl who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and had all the worst in her life, and then was just murdered, like just thrown away, no one talks about it.

• 55:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And except for Tom Waits, who lives in my town, who lives way out in the country, wrote a song for Georgia Moses.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I bet you can find his P O. Box pretty easy. Is that terrible?

• 55:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Not at all.

• 55:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Oh, Georgia Moses. I'm sorry.

• 55:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:51Georgia Hardstark?

  But I'm all, yeah, that's fucking bummer.

• 55:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 55:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. How do you feel now?

• 55:58Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what? I'm glad, I'm glad I said it.

• 56:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you feel cleansed a little?

• 56:02Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 56:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. No. I just think it's like, you know what? It's all around us. That's kind of the thing that

• 56:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 56:08Georgia Hardstark?

  that I feel like keeps coming up on this podcast. It's like, this isn't special.

• 56:13Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I know.

• 56:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It happens. The people that it happens to are, and it's a full-on tragedy in ways that you can't even take in, but it, it happens constantly.

• 56:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's like a, it's a very normal part of life, which I think once you, the reason we're doing that is because like we're, we see that and we're freaked out by it and fascinated by it. And like, we could have a million episodes and not get to half the, the like everyday murders that just happen all the time that you haven't heard about, or you haven't, didn't know the details.

• 56:49Georgia Hardstark?

  For real.

• 56:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just.

• 56:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 56:53Georgia Hardstark?

  People get fucking murdered.

• 56:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. I mean, oh, that like close call where he gets, like, you know, his car gets searched by the cops. There's just no way they could have known, but you want so bad for her to have been discovered at that moment. It's just like such a fucking tragic detail.

• 57:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So horrible. So horrible. Yeah. I mean, everything about this story is horrible, obviously. There are a few updates on this case. In May of this year, Richard Allen Davis' attorneys argued that his death sentence should be recalled because of recent changes to California sentencing laws. A California judge rejected the resentencing bid and Davis is still on death row. And the Polyclass Foundation, a national nonprofit focused on recovering missing children and promoting child safety policies, has assisted, to this date, 10,000 families in locating their missing children.

• 57:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That's amazing.

• 57:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible. If you want to donate to the Polyclass Foundation or learn more about them, please go to poly, the name poly, P-O-L-L-Y-K-L-A-A-S.org.

• 58:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

• 58:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Make a little donation to Polyclass Foundation? That'd be amazing. I would love that.

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  10 grand to fucking polyclass.org, the Polyclass Foundation.

• 58:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. Oh, also, I talk about this. There was a kind of a parallel case that I brought up in this story, which is, is the murder of Georgia Lee Moses, which is, I believe, still a cold case. And Georgia Lee Moses was a young black girl. I think she was 13 years old or 12 years old. And she was found, I mean, I've already, you've heard me say it if you just listened to that clip, but it didn't get really any coverage.

• 58:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So should we also donate to the Black and Missing Foundation?

• 58:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, great idea. Beautiful.

• 58:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go. It's blackandmissinginc.com. So 10 grand to them immediately.

• 58:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we had Derica and Natalie Wilson on the podcast. I mean, when was that? Was that like two years ago or?

• 59:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That was during the pandemic, for sure.

• 59:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. But they were amazing. We got to talk to them about this foundation, about the work that they do. I believe there was a HBO docu-series about them. Definitely go watch that.

• 59:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible. All right, let's move on to more fucking horribleness, shall we?

• 59:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, now it's time for Georgia's story, and she tells the legendary story of the murder of Kitty Genovese.

• 59:33Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 59:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 59:42Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 59:46Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:00:12Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 1:00:37Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 1:00:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 1:00:43Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:00:45Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:00:48Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:00:58Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:01:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity, with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house, I wear them to bed, and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 1:01:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to bombas.com/mfm and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 1:01:38Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:01:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 1:01:50Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 1:01:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 1:02:05Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:02:09Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:02:11Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:02:17Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:02:23Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:02:29Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:02:35Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:02:39Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:02:41Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:02:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 1:02:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 1:02:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S.O.L.A.C.E. health.com/murder.

• 1:02:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:02:58Karen Kilgariff?

  What's your murder?

• 1:02:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So my murder, okay, like a month and a half or two months ago, we got an email inviting us to the screening of a new documentary called The Witness. And it's a documentary about Kitty Genovese. That's how you say it, right? Kitty Genovese.

• 1:03:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And we couldn't go. And so the guy sent us a screener to watch.

• 1:03:26Karen Kilgariff?

  He did?

• 1:03:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 1:03:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Didn't see that? There's like a password and shit.

• 1:03:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. I'm an email skimmer.

• 1:03:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:03:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Constantly in trouble for it.

• 1:03:36Georgia Hardstark?

  That's hilarious. I like read into every single word in the email. I'm like, what did he mean by that?

• 1:03:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I just saw that invitation, and I was like, they invited, it was a big, long thing about being invited, but there were no details where I was like, what time? Like where?

• 1:03:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:51Karen Kilgariff?

  What? And then I just kind of gave up after that.

• 1:03:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I mean, and I was kind of like, okay, whatever about it. And this was like a while ago. And finally, I started watching it last night, and it's really fucking good.

• 1:04:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, awesome.

• 1:04:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The narrator, the guy who's kind of the, in the shit of it, he's like, the dude who you follow is Kitty Genovese's little brother.

• 1:04:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:04:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:16Karen Kilgariff?

  In real life?

• 1:04:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:04:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:04:18Georgia Hardstark?

  So he, okay, so let me tell you about the murder a little bit.

• 1:04:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:04:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So Catherine Kitty Genovese was stabbed to death outside her apartment building in Kew Gardens, Queens. Like, I feel like everyone knows the story. And that's why I was a little like, okay, like, I've heard the story a million fucking times. She's the girl that basically everyone is like, she was being stabbed. There were 38 witnesses from an apartment building across the street and no one did anything. And it kind of started the whole, like, the bystander effect, bystander effect, where no, but, you know, the more people watching something, the less likely anyone's going to interview being and it had, it had all these, like, these effects on New York and what's happening to the city and people are horrible and, you know, this kind of, this

• 1:05:06Georgia Hardstark?

  kind of awful thing of, of nobody helping.

• 1:05:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's in, like, every Psych 101.

• 1:05:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:05:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Georgia Hardstark?

  So, yeah. And so I don't want to spoil the movie because I think everyone should go see it, but I'm going to talk about the murder so that people remember what it is and also some of the interesting points from this movie without spoiling it because I don't think I could do that. It's really fucking good.

• 1:05:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:05:27Georgia Hardstark?

  So on March 13th, she finishes her shift at a sports bar. She's a bartender and she gets home and parks her car at 3:00 in the morning at like a side parking lot, which sucks. And I feel like she immediately saw her killer. Winston Mosley was like hanging out, clearly looking for a victim. So she gets home at like 3:15, she parks. It's about 100 feet from her apartment door.

• 1:05:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Ugh.

• 1:05:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So she's walking towards her building. He starts to approach her. She immediately starts running and like knowing something's going on. He overtakes her and stabs her twice, right there on the sidewalk, right across the street from this huge apartment building. And so the story is that people came out and looked and no one fucking did anything. But in reality,

• 1:06:19Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so much murkier than that. What it sounds like is that most people thought it was a lover's quarrel. They look out the window, but she's, but she yells, oh my God, he stabbed me. Help me. But most people didn't hear her cry out in the beginning. Most people thought it was a bar brawl or a lover's quarrel. And by the time a lot of people looked out, he was running away. And, and so she walks around the corner stumbling to her apartment. And so people see her go around the corner and that's all they saw. And in reality, people did call. Oh. The police. But back then you just called, you didn't call, there was no 911.

• 1:06:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And this is part of the reason there is a 911 now is because they needed, they need, you know, you can't just call the police precinct and get people there. Okay.

• 1:07:11Georgia Hardstark?

  The earliest calls to the police are unclear and weren't given a high priority by them. And it looks like some of them might not have even been logged. One witness said his father called the police after the initial attack and reported that a woman was beat up, but got up and was staggering around. So no one knew she was actually being stabbed. Hmm. So, so he fucking runs away when someone yells out the window, uh, let that girl alone. This like, you hear him in the documentary and he's like this salty old man. He's amazing. Uh, let that girl alone. He runs away. She staggers off. He mostly leaves, comes back when he realizes that no cops are coming and finds her again,

• 1:07:56Georgia Hardstark?

  which is the most fucking terrifying part of this whole story. So you can't, if someone had come out to see how she was and there was a doorman in the apartment building right across the street, if someone had come out. You know, maybe they could have helped her, brought her into their house. Instead, she goes into the doorway of her apartment building, which has one, it's got one outside door and then a locked inside door and she's dying and so she can't get her keys or unlock that door. He fucking comes back and finds her in the stairwell, just like a fucking deer that had been, you know?

• 1:08:35Karen Kilgariff?

  And what, and stabs her more?

• 1:08:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Stabs her more. They don't mention, I haven't finished the documentary yet and they don't mention this and maybe it's just because he can't fucking handle it, which is fair, but I read that he raped her.

• 1:08:47Karen Kilgariff?

  After he stabbed her?

• 1:08:49Georgia Hardstark?

  After he, well, she was dying. He raped her. I don't know if they're gonna mention in the documentary. I, I'm sure they will because it's a huge part of it, but I heard that in the, in the documentary, it says that he attempted to. So I wonder, and the brother, it's so interesting because he's like, I've never been able to deal with, I, I haven't known the details of this until recently because I just couldn't handle it. And it seems like it was a really tight knit family.

• 1:09:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's so understandable. I don't know how people

• 1:09:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:09:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Deal with that when they find out the details of horrible things that happened to their, their, like those next of kin. I mean, it's awful.

• 1:09:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, they didn't, I guess the family didn't even go to the trial because they just couldn't even handle it.

• 1:09:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet.

• 1:09:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? Which is like, gee, I, what's great about this documentary is it feels like this guy is kind of like, the more I know, the closer I'll be to her and I need to find out what happened and know the truth because this is, the truth of the, of that crime now is what everyone wrote about it and what people talk about it in sociology classes and shit, which is turning out not to be true. So, you know, the New York Times article said that it was 38 people who witnessed it and didn't know. Um, but so, but the upstairs neighbor looks out into the stairwell, sees her being stabbed, closes the door and calls his girlfriend who said, don't get involved. But then later calls the police. So like, dude, you should feel like shit, right?

• 1:10:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like.

• 1:10:14Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, it's New York City.

• 1:10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's that thing where, yeah, you don't, what are you gonna go out there and who knows what's actually happening?

• 1:10:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it just a lover's quarrel? Do you really want to get involved? It's like.

• 1:10:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Not that I wouldn't get involved, not that the woman deserves it because it's a lover's quarrel, but.

• 1:10:32Karen Kilgariff?

  But it makes sense in that city setting.

• 1:10:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, anything can happen and you just don't know.

• 1:10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:38Karen Kilgariff?

  You put your life at risk for a stranger who could turn around and be like, get the fuck.

• 1:10:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:10:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't know.

• 1:10:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, here's a really interesting, one of the parts of the documentary that I loved is he's interviewing the kid. And the family never knew that their next door neighbor, who was Kitty's best, like, one of her good friends. The soon as she found out what happened, put on her housecoat, ran out and helped Kitty. Until she, until the ambulance came.

• 1:11:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:11:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And the brother in the documentary was like, I wish my, why didn't my family know that? It would have meant so much to us to know that her friend was there while she died.

• 1:11:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And so the son is being interviewed, the friend's son, and is like, here's the thing about this neighborhood, a lot of people were Holocaust survivors. And a lot of people in that building were Holocaust survivors and you don't, you don't intervene. You don't stick your nose. You don't, you know, get involved in what might happen with, in cops, in police interrogations. You just fucking leave it alone.

• 1:11:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is such a sad thing that you would never think about.

• 1:11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:11:42Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 1:11:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, those are people that are like, I've had plenty of trouble. I'm not doing it anymore.

• 1:11:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. You mind your fucking business.

• 1:11:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:11:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's gross, but it's hard to, it's hard to argue. So Mosley gets, gets caught a couple of days later when he's burglarizing a house. He had no prior criminal record and he was married with three children. And he got up the night of, out of bed where his wife was sleeping to go find a woman to kill.

• 1:12:11Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:12:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. But he had actually killed two other women. And he had never been caught. And he did a bunch of burglaries as well.

• 1:12:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so he is like a burgeoning serial killer?

• 1:12:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, absolutely. Let's see, he confessed confessed to thirty to forty burglaries. It's psychiatric examination suggested he was a necrophile. Fuck. And then he said something, he said that he, his motive was simply he wanted to kill a woman. That was his motive. Yeah, that's pretty sick. So.

• 1:12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I have to say, I've seen a picture of that guy. He has very plucked eyebrows.

• 1:12:54Georgia Hardstark?

  He looks a lot like Prince and Richard Little had a baby.

• 1:13:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Richard Little?

• 1:13:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not Richard Little, Little Richard.

• 1:13:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Where am I?

• 1:13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no. No, he does. That's exactly right. He, he looks like a drag queen at the end of her shit.

• 1:13:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:13:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Like washed it all off, is ready to just, you know?

• 1:13:18Georgia Hardstark?

  High cheekbones.

• 1:13:19Karen Kilgariff?

  High cheekbones, very plucked eyebrows or something. Like a cat like face.

• 1:13:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Weird.

• 1:13:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm picturing seeing that face standing above me, stabbing me. Cause.

• 1:13:31Karen Kilgariff?

  What is the deal?

• 1:13:32Georgia Hardstark?

  What is the deal? So, all right, he confesses. Let's see, he's a fucking necro. So in the seventies, he, okay, so while in prison in the seventies, he gets a bachelor of arts in sociology.

• 1:13:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good.

• 1:13:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Insane.

• 1:13:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, good.

• 1:13:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Like there's, you're not using that for, for good, dude. You're using that to understand.

• 1:13:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:13:59Georgia Hardstark?

  How you can take advantage of people.

• 1:14:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That is Ted Bundy action.

• 1:14:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 1:14:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Ted Bundy was a psychology major.

• 1:14:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Son of a bitch.

• 1:14:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, and they know. That's so man.

• 1:14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And then during his, he's eligible for parole in eighty-four, which is like, what the fuck? And at his first parole hearing, he told the parole, well, the parole board that the notoriety he faced due to his crimes made him a victim stating.

• 1:14:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, he's the victim, for sure.

• 1:14:24Georgia Hardstark?

  For a victim outside, it's a one time or one hour or one minute affair. But for the person who's caught, it's forever.

• 1:14:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, much sadder.

• 1:14:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Much sadder.

• 1:14:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you get a minute of murder and I have to live the rest of my life in jail?

• 1:14:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you know what? How about you put your super sociological mind to that and say, then maybe don't stab people and you won't be so deeply victimized by your fucking shitty behavior.

• 1:14:49Georgia Hardstark?

  You're correct. And that's why you don't fucking not, that's not the only reason, but that's one of the reasons you don't murder.

• 1:14:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's, this is the Brock Turner thing of like, this, this drunken girl is ruining my whole future. And it's like, no rapist.

• 1:15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You ruined your future.

• 1:15:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:05Karen Kilgariff?

  You did it, dummy. Like, it's the, it's that, it's very psychopathic. It's like you skip over the thing you did that made things happen.

• 1:15:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you known people like that where you're like, how do you not see your role in this thing?

• 1:15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I asked that because I'm sure you-

• 1:15:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I've stopped, I have stopped participating with people like that for that very reason. The, if you cannot admit your own faults in your life, that, that the behavior that you bring to the table is the thing that affects, and, you know, creates the situation around you, if it's always other people.

• 1:15:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you have a major problem.

• 1:15:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so, so weird to see those people and like, I mean, it almost feels like the, an argument or the blame thing is like a game to win.

• 1:15:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's exact-

• 1:15:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And so as soon as they can get you to not blame them and to take it all on you, which I've fucking done many times with people, they win.

• 1:16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to read the book, um, The Sociopath Next Door.

• 1:16:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I think in the, I think the numbers are, it's one in four.

• 1:16:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:16:12Karen Kilgariff?

  People are sociopaths and those people have no conscience. Everything is a power game to them. All they want to do is beat you and they will beat you in terms of money, in terms of sex, in terms of status. That's all they care about.

• 1:16:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And they don't have empathy. So you're constantly left going, I would never do this. But it's like, yeah, that's right. Cause this isn't, this person is nothing like you.

• 1:16:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you scared you're gonna like, if you read that, you'll just like, look for that- And everyone, I mean, I guess everyone.

• 1:16:43Karen Kilgariff?

  You should look for it in everyone. You should, because then you know, when you're being mind fucked, you'll go, oh, my God, that's, oh, now I realize why I'm so, like, you need to know that information.

• 1:16:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:16:56Karen Kilgariff?

  You need to be able to spot a sociopath. I think that should be taught in high schools.

• 1:17:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I put it in a comic book so Vince doesn't see me reading that and think I'm like studying up on him?

• 1:17:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Vince is not a sociopath.

• 1:17:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I know he's not.

• 1:17:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, you just don't want him to see you.

• 1:17:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Paying attention to it.

• 1:17:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, or like being like, why are you reading that?

• 1:17:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Say, I'm doing it for you, baby.

• 1:17:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:18Karen Kilgariff?

  This is for, this is for the marriage.

• 1:17:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Should I say, I'm a sociopath? I think our cats are sociopaths.

• 1:17:25Karen Kilgariff?

  One in four. I mean, if we had one more person in this room, it would be one of us.

• 1:17:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm thinking.

• 1:17:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Even.

• 1:17:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so easy to like, put some of that on people I know.

• 1:17:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, also because sometimes people just piss you off. So it's like calling someone a sociopath is very satisfying.

• 1:17:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, well, this makes sense.

• 1:17:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It is.

• 1:17:44Karen Kilgariff?

  But I do know people who, after being friends with them for a while, and then being like, I cannot be friends with you anymore. You are like, you're basically a vampire.

• 1:17:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Then when you, when you pull away and then you read this book, you go, holy shit.

• 1:18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, there's like a step by step thing where it's like, is this a person who would never cop to anything? Is this a person who only ever wanted to take more for themselves? It's like, it's a very clear kind of defining thing.

• 1:18:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, dude.

• 1:18:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Read it.

• 1:18:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I think I over, I over accept responsibility for things because I don't, I'm trying so hard not to, not to let myself get away with shit.

• 1:18:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, well, part of it, I do the exact same thing. And for me, part of it is an ego problem. Because I think the world revolves around me a hundred percent. So I like the idea of people of like, oh, my God, this person's doing this and that. Like, it, it adds to my egomaniac of like, I'm, everybody's thinking of me all the time.

• 1:18:44Georgia Hardstark?

  There is a certain something about like, even being like, I feel so bad about this thing that happened where it's like, nobody, why are you making it about you?

• 1:18:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:18:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Not you specifically, but like.

• 1:18:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It's better to let it go. Like the healthier thing is to be like, maybe I had 50% of that. Maybe I had 0% of that.

• 1:18:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, but look at it, learn from it, move on and let it go. But to sit around and be like, "Oh, I was so bad that time." It's like, yeah, you're just thinking of yourself and not thinking of other people.

• 1:19:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm a sociopath.

• 1:19:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you?

• 1:19:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm in media right now. One in three, one in three, including Elvis. It's me.

• 1:19:19Georgia Hardstark?

  But what if it's me? Now it's not me.

• 1:19:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, do you have a conscience?

• 1:19:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you're fine.

• 1:19:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, what's a, can you, what's a conscience? No, I don't know how I do.

• 1:19:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Guilt. I mean,

• 1:19:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:30Karen Kilgariff?

  we got that covered.

• 1:19:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven.

• 1:19:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Guilty.

• 1:19:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you feel it?

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  I feel guilty all the time.

• 1:19:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we're all good. We just need to, the next person who walks to the store, which will probably be Ben. It's the sociopath. Let's play a game.

• 1:19:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Your neighbor knocks on the door, "Excuse me."

• 1:19:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, how are you? My mom just drops in and I'm like, "Yeah, no shit."

• 1:19:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi.

• 1:19:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, welcome.

• 1:19:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, my therapist was right about you.

• 1:19:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Could you answer some questions for me as I, let me just pull this book out of my back pocket.

• 1:19:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Mom. Um, okay, what did I wanna, what was my, let's see here, Holocaust survivors.

• 1:20:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:05Georgia Hardstark?

  None of the witnesses observed the attacks in their entirety because of the layout of the complex was weird.

• 1:20:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And it seems like she was attacked in two different places.

• 1:20:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and they, and as far as they knew, he ran away and she walked away and they couldn't see her anymore. And she was staggering. I mean, how do you, she only got stabbed twice. So how do you know you couldn't even see that she was stabbed by the time you run to the window?

• 1:20:27Karen Kilgariff?

  See, I remember that story from psychology class that she got stabbed like 35 times.

• 1:20:32Georgia Hardstark?

  She got stabbed a lot more once he came back to her.

• 1:20:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh, okay. So that was, oh, I see.

• 1:20:36Georgia Hardstark?

  The initial attack.

• 1:20:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Witnessable part was two stabs.

• 1:20:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. The initial, like, when everyone saw it was two, and then he had a private moment, you know, private, in the doorway. So no one actually saw that.

• 1:20:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So terrible. That's so nightmarish. There's a, um, Crime to Remember about Kitty, Kitty Genovese.

• 1:20:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and I just was like, okay. I didn't even watch it.

• 1:20:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You didn't?

• 1:20:59Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'm sure I watched it because I watched every episode of that show. There, it's, um, there's also a girls' episode where they like, talk about it.

• 1:21:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, really?

• 1:21:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, one of the guys is in a play where they reenact the whole thing.

• 1:21:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:21:12Georgia Hardstark?

  But of course, there's a lot of girls' drama going on, so they don't really talk about it, but.

• 1:21:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that show. I'm not making fun of it. Let's see, so it became known as the bystander effect or the Genevieve Genevieve's syndrome. And but people are now questioning what really fucking happened.

• 1:21:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So, okay, so everyone go to YouTube and you can watch the trailer. It's called The Witness. And if you go to the witness dash film.com, you there, it's in the theaters right now. If you have an art house theater in your town and it's it's gonna be at a lot of small towns. So it's not like random and then hopefully it'll be on Hulu or something at some point.

• 1:21:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then do do do, it's unlikely that she was able to scream at any point after she got stabbed the first time anyways, because they stabbed her. Um, because they stabbed her in the lungs.

• 1:22:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Yeah, they they punctured her. He punctured they. He punctured her lung. So after that second stabbing, she probably wasn't screaming anyways. So it's not like a bunch of people ignored that as well.

• 1:22:20Karen Kilgariff?

  This whole murder is like worst case scenario.

• 1:22:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking, fucking worse. Like she would have died from the initial attack, it sounds like, because he punctured a lung and she died from asphyxiation. But.

• 1:22:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And so if the cops had been called and at that point they took her to the hospital and she died, it it wouldn't have been the same thing as if he fucking ran away and came back and was like, nobody cares.

• 1:22:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I can continue this.

• 1:22:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so awful to think about.

• 1:22:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's dark.

• 1:22:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:56Georgia Hardstark?

  But the universal emergency phone number was created after this.

• 1:23:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And yeah, today it's used all the time, but so, yeah. The Witness is the Movie. It's by James Solomon and it's a really fat like just watch the, I feel like anyone who listens to this podcast will watch this trailer and definitely want to see it.

• 1:23:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It's really good.

• 1:23:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's such a classic case. I feel like even if you were, you've never been interested in true crime.

• 1:23:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:24Karen Kilgariff?

  You've heard the Kitty Genovese story.

• 1:23:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It like, it's like prerequisite in college and stuff. But I guess it's, it's an interesting thing to be like, yeah, you know, this thing that you've heard about your whole life. It's not the way you heard it.

• 1:23:36Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I love about it. So I hope it's not boring that I did this, this case, but I just thought it was the stuff that you'd never, you'd never knew about it. And I really was, it's one of those cases where I was like, ah, I've heard that a million times. I know about it. You fucking totally don't. And then to see it from the brother's point of view. Who also is like, kind of a badass dude himself.

• 1:23:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Where it happened in the Bronx in Queens.

• 1:23:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Queens.

• 1:24:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Queens.

• 1:24:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:01Karen Kilgariff?

  People from Queens are kind of the greatest.

• 1:24:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh yeah. The voice, you listen to it just for the interviews he does with the people who live around there. They're incredible.

• 1:24:08Karen Kilgariff?

  The accents.

• 1:24:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The accents are incredible. There's a lot of, there's like a beautiful illustrated element of it that they use as like interstitials or to, to, to show what was actually going on with this gorgeous illustration.

• 1:24:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:24:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Very simple line drawings, but it's super beautiful.

• 1:24:25Karen Kilgariff?

  The, I haven't seen this movie, but I also recommend the crime to remember episode about her, Kitty Genovese, because they put out some other alternate theories that are very interesting.

• 1:24:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Wasn't one like the downstairs neighbor might've done it?

• 1:24:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. They don't, they didn't seem convinced he did it.

• 1:24:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:42Karen Kilgariff?

  But I did, none of that information of that he'd already killed two other women was in there. They focused a lot on how racist the NYPD was back then. And so that they basically would grab up black people, black men.

• 1:24:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And just be like, were you in the neighborhood? It's you.

• 1:24:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounds like way different than it is today.

• 1:24:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so, so different. Um, I would just like to say, cause I saw a documentary. Is yours done?

• 1:25:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. Yeah, no, totally.

• 1:25:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:25:09Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it totally is, yeah.

• 1:25:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I just saw this. I'm gonna bring yours to an end so I can recommend my documentary that isn't true crime. But, well, it is because it's crime.

• 1:25:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It's called Tickled and it is unbelievably amazing. Cause it starts out there about this online, uh, tickling competition. Tickling league.

• 1:25:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 1:25:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Professional tickling league, I think it's called.

• 1:25:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I already need a fucking shower.

• 1:25:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, except for it's not what you think. It's not some weird like, can you believe these people exist? It goes into the craziest, darkest, scariest fucking thing. And it's this one New Zealand reporter who went, who went looking into it because he's basically a human interest reporter for the local news.

• 1:25:57Georgia Hardstark?

  He got in too deep.

• 1:25:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And he immediately started getting threatened. And so instead of being like, whoops, better close this up, he starts investigating. And it's amazing. And interestingly enough, and not to talk about them all the time, but our friends, the Dollop, who did a very, very popular episode about these tickling competitions very early on. Like this guy did, this New Zealand reporter did the story. They, Dave and Gareth got sent the story, I think by people in Australia or New Zealand saying, you guys have to talk about this. It's crazy. And so then they did that episode of the Dollop was super popular. And it's actually featured in the documentary.

• 1:26:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 1:26:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, they have, uh, audio clips of the Dollop talking about this.

• 1:26:44Georgia Hardstark?

  He's made it.

• 1:26:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's the very beginning of the movie. And then it goes into like, he's like, he basically is like, yeah, I thought this was this kooky, crazy thing. And then I started researching it. And it is edge of your seat. It was one of those things we saw at the Sunset Sundance, whatever theater. And there was only like 10, 15 people in the theater. And a bunch of us were all sitting in one row, which was kind of funny. Like basically there was like nine people in one row and then like four people outside of our row.

• 1:27:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:13Karen Kilgariff?

  But by the end, we were all talking to each other.

• 1:27:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:27:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It was one of those, like, so upsetting and like, oh, my god, what's happening?

• 1:27:19Georgia Hardstark?

  What channel is it on? I want to watch it.

• 1:27:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, no, it's a movie. It's a documentary movie that's in, like, art house theaters right now, like The Witnesses.

• 1:27:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, man, we gotta have a double feature.

• 1:27:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:27:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder if we could host a double feature. We should email this guy. I feel like we want to do this.

• 1:27:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Another, everything that comes up, you've got an idea.

• 1:27:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Man.

• 1:27:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it.

• 1:27:39Georgia Hardstark?

  What is that?

• 1:27:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the best. It's, you're, you're the reason, um, you're the reason it's all happening.

• 1:27:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I always think of myself as such a lazy person and I'm like constantly be writing myself for being lazy. And then, like, sometimes I'll have to write a list of things I'm doing to just be like, just look at this, Georgia. Everything is okay.

• 1:27:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. No, you're doing a lot of stuff. I liked when we were watching The Simpsons and we were on the same episode and then you were like, we've got to watch episode five together and live tweet it. And I was like, you might want to watch the other episodes before you decide we should live tweet this. It's kind of a bummer.

• 1:28:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. It's like, we can, what if we do this? What if we do that? We can do this, we can do that. And like, sometimes, like, when you just got here, you were like, you kind of had a, like, we had a conversation about something regarding the podcast and you kind of had to, like, talk me down from it.

• 1:28:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I couldn't breathe.

• 1:28:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I get it, though. Yeah, you get, I can tell when you're excited or like, there's a lot going on because you're, it, it almost looks like you're slowly drowning and you're trying to tell me something before you go under.

• 1:28:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't.

• 1:28:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's kind of what it's like.

• 1:28:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Take a deep breath. It's happened my entire life.

• 1:28:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I, I have to yawn. I yawn a lot because I have to catch my breath. And so I get so worked up. That's funny that you've noticed it.

• 1:28:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to think about breathing more.

• 1:28:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that's what yawning is about. Yawning is about low oxygen levels.

• 1:28:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And you have to, like, your body goes, take this, take as much oxygen in as you can.

• 1:29:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so, like, I've gotten up in the middle of the night and, like, wrote a blog post about how, like, it's, you really feel like you're drowning and you can't breathe.

• 1:29:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And it, it's just anxiety. And then that perpetuates itself and you just still can't breathe. And anyways.

• 1:29:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So a lot of great ideas, guys. A lot of great. Oh, there was someone that made my favorite piece of art that got made on the, that got posted on the Facebook page last week is someone did a free hand drawing that was a picture of the forest that said, um, get a job, make, buy your own shit, stay out of the forest. But, but with these banners, did you see that?

• 1:29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so beautifully done. And it was someone who said their friend did it, but they're not, they don't want to be on the Facebook page.

• 1:29:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Come on, man.

• 1:29:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Bless their souls.

• 1:29:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I got an email from a girl that I know today who was like, um, I just started a new job and I overheard my coworkers saying, oh my God, I'm obsessed with this new podcast. And they were like, me too. And, and they were like, what's it called? My Favorite Murder. And my friend Kelsey was like, I was trying, I wanted to tell them so bad and brag that I knew you, that it's a new job. And I was like, tell them, look at her raise.

• 1:30:10Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, I'm gonna hold it for four more days.

• 1:30:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And then drop the bomb.

• 1:30:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And be like, guess what?

• 1:30:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:30:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 1:30:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It makes me happy that a lot of people say they feel like we're best friends.

• 1:30:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Not with each other.

• 1:30:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Best. There it is.

• 1:30:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's it.

• 1:30:29Karen Kilgariff?

  We're done. Stay sexy.

• 1:30:31Georgia Hardstark?

  No, are we?

• 1:30:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:30:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, go do it again.

• 1:30:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. I just want a cookie. Want a cookie?

• 1:30:43Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a yes.

• 1:30:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Bye.

• 1:30:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. Are there case updates on a story this old? Yes, actually. Well, first of all, I love the detail. And I think these are the things we look for now in stories, that this case created the universal emergency phone number, 911, which is like, just fascinating to me. You know, okay, this is early on, episode 24. I did not mention when my story took place. When? Yeah. That little, that little detail. It's, it's, a journalist would have caught that, you know, the who, where, when, what, how, you know? You know what? Smarter people than me have covered this and you should go read and listen to their shit. I am covering their coverage. And I forgot to mention that this took place in 1964.

• 1:31:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I was sitting across from you and I didn't.

• 1:31:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Ask.

• 1:31:36Georgia Hardstark?

  So ridiculous. And also, the man who killed Kitty Genovese Winston Mosley died in a New York prison in 2016. So fucking recently. He served almost 52 years and was one of the state's longest serving inmates. And it's so terrifying when you, when I was telling the story that he was trying to get parole and you're just like, absolutely fucking not, you know?

• 1:31:59Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, well, that was it. That was the boiled down version of this episode. So now we'll talk about what we could have entitled it instead of 20 justice for all.

• 1:32:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And the number, the word for is F O U R. You know, it's not visual.

• 1:32:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, this is an auditory situation that we were doing written jokes, like page jokes for lots of mistakes.

• 1:32:24Georgia Hardstark?

  We were, we were very tired and working very hard and very surprised that anyone was listening to this fucking podcast.

• 1:32:31Karen Kilgariff?

  We meant very well.

• 1:32:33Georgia Hardstark?

  We did.

• 1:32:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And we still do. And also, that's the thing, we'll say it again and again, we're just people doing a podcast. That's all.

• 1:32:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 1:32:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all.

• 1:32:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep, that's it. All right. So let's see, we could call it obstetric, we could call this episode obstetrician of T-shirts.

• 1:32:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I don't even fucking know.

• 1:32:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That was you.

• 1:32:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, merch.

• 1:32:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's me saying that that's what you are by being the merch girl. We could also call it plans and schemes, which was all the ideas we had about doing unboxings.

• 1:33:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I like that. Plans and schemes. It's so funny, like way back then, we were like, maybe we'll do video. And it's like, now we have to do video. It's like, it's like required in today's world, today's modern world.

• 1:33:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Gotta compete, gotta get out there, gotta do podcasts on video.

• 1:33:21Georgia Hardstark?

  We're on YouTube and TikTok and fucking Instagram and fucking all the shit.

• 1:33:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fun to be middle aged on fucking all those websites.

• 1:33:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like in this, when this episode recorded, I was 36 and I was like, not yet, video. No, let me be 40 fucking four before I have to be on video. Let's wait a minute.

• 1:33:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, I'm gonna dig my 11 lines down a little deeper. I wanna have. Way more stress and then see what that does to my old face.

• 1:33:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, I want to wait until this filler migrates before I get fucking lit from below and fucking on camera. Let's just wait until it's in the wrong places.

• 1:34:01Karen Kilgariff?

  We should have actually done flashlights under our chins for the Halloween episode, now that I think about it, now that you say that.

• 1:34:07Georgia Hardstark?

  It all feels like flashlights under the chin when you're on video.

• 1:34:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's tough, but also what we have to remember is no one gives a shit anymore.

• 1:34:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No one gives a shit.

• 1:34:16Karen Kilgariff?

  No one gives a single shit.

• 1:34:18Georgia Hardstark?

  No, and I'm learning contouring finally, so I'm gonna be fine.

• 1:34:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Can't wait until I'm sitting across from Kim Kardashian. What a joy. Okay, thanks, everybody for listening back then. Now, were you there? Are you here now? Oh, my God, that's so nice of you.

• 1:34:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 1:34:35Karen Kilgariff?

  You must be so patient. Stay sexy.

• 1:34:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:34:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:34:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:34:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 1:34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 1:35:01Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 1:35:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:35:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be. Goodbye.

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