#1085 Shiva Singh Sangwan On If India The Next Silicon Valley

Shiva Singh Sangwan is an Investor and Founder at 1947 Rise Fund. In this episode, we discuss the country of India, population growth, why more tech companies are being founded in India, and the reverse "brain drain" of talent choosing to work for India-based tech companies. ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Even better? Eight Sleep recently launched the next generation of the Pod. The new Pod 3 enables more accurate sleep and health tracking with double the amount of sensors, delivering you the best sleep experience on Earth. Go to eightsleep.com/pomp for exclusive Labor Day savings through September 11th. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia ======================= Compass Mining is the world's first online marketplace for bitcoin mining hardware and hosting. Compass was founded with the goal of making it easy for everyone to mine bitcoin. Visit https://compassmining.io/ to start mining bitcoin today! ======================= Exodus is leading the world out of the traditional financial system by building beautiful and user-friendly blockchain products. With its focus on design and user experience, Exodus has become one of the most popular and loved cryptocurrency apps. It’s supported on both desktop and mobile, allowing you to sync your wallet across multiple devices so you can have access to your funds anywhere. You can instantly exchange around 100 different cryptocurrencies straight from your wallet. Interactive charts let you view an asset’s price history and your portfolio’s performance over time. And maybe the best part, Exodus is integrated with the Trezor hardware wallet - making advanced security easy for everyone. Visit exodus.com/pomp for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or Playstore. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= Amberdata provides the critical data infrastructure enabling financial institutions to participate in the digital asset class. We deliver comprehensive data and insights into blockchain networks, crypto markets, and decentralized finance. Download our Digital Asset Data Guide at https://www.amberdata.io/pomp =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Shiva Singh Sangawan is an investor and founder at 1947 Rise Fund. In this conversation, we talk about the country of India, the population growth, the demographics, why so many tech companies and so many investors are finding it interesting, and also the idea of reverse brain drain. Shiva continues to be one of the loudest proponents of the Indian ecosystem, and I enjoyed learning from him in this episode. Before we get into this episode, I first want to talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by FTX US. They're the safe, regulated way to buy

• 0:47Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:32Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Again, exodus.com/pomp. Go check them out today.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 2:42Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Shiva here with me. I'm very excited about this and I thought a great place to start is just the country of India in general. Obviously, most people know it's a very large country, 1.4 billion people. Talk to me a little bit in terms of the culture of India and why is entrepreneurship kind of having this renaissance or this resurgence within the country?

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, so let me start by, Pom, giving you a, maybe let me start with a global worldview on the tech in general. Right?

• 3:15Speaker 02

  US pioneered it. China came along. China started seeking inspiration from US. They started, in the beginning, they were mostly copying and carrying ideas from US and building it. And then, you know, China reached an inflection point where they had a bunch of, you know, massive companies like Alibaba, Tencent and all that stuff. And they could really build their entire ecosystem moving forward, meaning they had capital and they had talent. Then, you know, Chinese entrepreneurs started building ideas and companies really unique to themselves, solving China-specific problems.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  And then India has been there. India has been seeking inspiration from US and it's been taking inspiration from China.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  And and you know now, India is also reaching that inflection point where you know, India has about, I think it's about hundred five unicorns now, India has capital, both basically talent and capital. And moving forward, I think, you know, the rest of the world, which is emerging world, they will be seeking inspiration from US, China and India, and India will play a massive role. And I'll tell you why in a bit. So let me talk about Indian technology ecosystem, how it has evolved over the years. We'll go back in nineteen nineties. In the beginning, it was mostly about call centers. It was about, you know, BPO,

• 4:45Speaker 02

  meaning small jobs that were not really core to your business. And then TCS, you know, inforces came along. They started providing IT services to US companies. And then a lot of companies, for example, Microsoft, Facebook, a bunch of these companies, they started opening up tech, you know, centers in India because they could tap into the tech talent. The real technology ecosystem, or the startup ecosystem, I would say, started in two thousand eight. That's when the company, companies like Sumato, Flipkart, a bunch of others got founded. And I would say, I would view startup ecosystem of India, just like a startup.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  From two thousand eight to two thousand thirteen or fourteen, I would say, was really can India find product market fit? Meaning, can you really build companies? Can you build startups in India? That got proven right. And then the second phase was from two thousand fourteen to two thousand twenty twenty one, which is can Indian companies scale? And I think the first inflection point was when Flipkart got funded. It was valued at a billion dollars. So that kind of like story got kind of, you know, really proven. And in twenty twenty one, we saw about thirty nine billion went into the Indian startups.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Forty-four unicorns got minted. Overall, we have one hundred and five. So that means it has inflection point. And then, you know, moving forward, why I'm saying India would play a massive role moving forward is if you look at other emerging markets, the demographic and the problems are very similar to India versus if you compare that to US and China. And I think a good benchmark is Y C. If you look at Y C, you'll see we're building Micho for Africa, we're building Sudan for Pakistan or Bangladesh. And and talking about their words brain drain bomb. I think it's very inevitable. Once a country reaches inflection point and what that means it happened in China.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  I think it was David B. He said we should be thankful of Microsoft and what that means. Seventy percent of CTOs of Chinese companies were once Microsoft L M Is, meaning they moved back and built massive tech companies. Similar thing is happening in India. Out of, I think, yeah, we have one hundred and five. Out of one hundred and five, you know, around forty percent is again founded or co-founded by returnees. And this speed is only going to accelerate moving forward. So in a nutshell, right now, if you think about it, you know, there's a lot of unicorns, meaning founders and operators, they're getting some liquidity.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  They're helping their coworkers and friends starting new companies. That's basically smart capital, or the early employees are leaving and starting companies. And meaning moving forward, the ideas would be much more related to India, sophisticated. And the speed of execution would be faster. So it's interesting times ahead.

• 7:57Anthony Pompliano?

  So when you talk about, let's call it one hundred and five unicorns in India, that's the third highest anywhere in the world for a country. There's about thirty-nine billion dollars. To put that in context, in twenty nineteen, I think there's only eleven billion dollars, so kind of a four X increase over a two, three year period. When you start to think about that, is that capital coming from what I'll call India native venture capital firms? Or is this venture capital firms and angel investors coming from outside of India? And now recognizing the opportunity in the country and they're either setting up offices or they're just coming and visiting and deploying capital in the country?

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, good question, Pom. So the late stage has been mostly overseas fund, meaning Tiger, O2, and a bunch of others, SoftBank. But, you know, as the ecosystem is evolving, I think someone tweeted recently, they were talking about, you know, given the market dynamics right now, I think emerging markets are gonna have a tough time. But I would say it's not true for India. The reason is because we have about seven, eight funds just this year. Combined, they have raised over 10 billion. So meaning the good capital or the capital is available. It's available for great companies.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  And I think it's only gonna evolve. To give you context again, it's gonna get difficult. It's gonna get really hard and competitive in India. And what that means, when I moved back to India in 2019 from US, I joined Angel List to lead business development for them and then really build out the early stage investing.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  You know, in the beginning, we used to in fact give deals to people, you know, to lead syndicates and help them raise capital. Fast forward to today, now deals are happening within a day or two. So you can see the scale. And again, moving forward, you know, it's gonna get competitive in India, which is a good, great thing for the ecosystem.

• 9:49Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think about the types of companies, obviously Silicon Valley was built on a very specific type of company. Now it's expanded. If you fast forward to modern day, you see this rise of kind of AI or machine learning type businesses. You see a rise in American dynamism. There's kind of these themes that play out. If you look at the Indian ecosystem, what are the types of companies that are really finding success? Are they consumer or the enterprise software? Do you have a mix of these different industries? What are you seeing in terms of kind of the vertical popularity?

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. So in the beginning, again, it was very similar to any other emerging market. You copy an idea that has worked somewhere else and it's easier to get funded. And once you reach a scale, again, this capital, this talent, then you start building companies or you start solving problems that are very specific to India. And in terms of, you know, to answer your question, so what the trend that we are seeing right now, again, like, you know, let me step back a bit. In the beginning, it was IT services, right? We were giving technology services to companies outside, then we're building software for companies outside. And then, you know, now companies, global companies are

• 11:03Speaker 02

  actually building products in India so they can utilize the same product in other emerging markets. But what we are seeing next, moving forward, would be there'll be a lot of B two B SaaS companies going global. That's been happening. You know, Freshwork is a great chance. That recently went public. Soho, Chargebee, Punch, others like 1015 now. And we're also seeing consumer companies going global, meaning very, you know, ready from India, like Cars 24 is one of them. Lens Guard is, you know, similar to, again, Warby Parker, but they're dominating the Asian market. And it's, again, it's evolution. As the markets get deeper, there's more capital, there's more talent, then you go after really,

• 11:47Speaker 02

  really hard problems because the risk capital would increase over time.

• 11:51Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think about your exact activities, you've got 1947 Rise Fund. Talk a little bit about what the strategy here is. And you're backed by a just glitterati list of investors and operators and American-based VC funds. How exactly did you go about putting together that LP list and raising the capital?

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think I raised the entire fund through cold tweets, cold emails. But let me, let me give you a quick background, Pom. So, you know, early life was all about tennis. I would say the best decision in life was picking up tennis. Played professionally in India, won the nationals, used to be one or two in the country, represented India on a few occasions. Then I ended up moving to San Diego on a tennis scholarship. And I Googled San Diego for the first time. And I was like, okay, man, this is it. I love the place. So went there, had a fantastic time, played college tennis, you know, my teammates were from 15, 16 different nationalities. And then introduction to Twitter was really

• 12:53Speaker 02

  a turning point in life, both professionally and personally. And I think that was 2013 or 2014. And that's when I started following smart people and just started learning from them. It's there, right there. And all you need to do is you should just have a desire to learn and implement things. Wild luck pump, I came to know about this event called Stocktoberfest, which is organized by the guy named Howard Lenzin. I went there, I couldn't afford the pass, I was in the restaurant trying to figure out how to get in. Someone had forgotten the name tag, took the name tag, went in, introduced myself, and I tweeted at him saying, thanks for organizing the event. I have no idea why he responded to it, he gave me his email address.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  I emailed him saying, how about me as a professional tennis player, give you a tennis lesson in exchange for your expertise in venture capital? He took a shot on, still I don't know. But anyway, there on, fast forward to twenty eighteen, I started writing a newsletter called nineteen forty-seven tech. Back then, there was no newsletter on Indian technology ecosystem. The idea for me was to, if I were to move back to India, I should know what's going on in India. It gave me enough data points, Pom, because, you know, you can kind of learn from things. I was in the US, I could see what's happening. And then again, like, I got super convinced, okay, this is the time, this is when you should be moving back to India, let's move back to India. And again, with Utse, who heads Angel List India, we became friends in twenty seventeen.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  I was literally cheerleading for him on Twitter, for him and for Angel List. When I came back, joined Angel List, started leading, sorry, I joined the Angel List. And then twenty twenty-one is when a lot of Dice Pro started asking me, how should we plan our move back to India? And I've been talking about reverse brain drain since two thousand and eighteen, it's not something new. And, and then, yeah, so for me, the idea was I move back to India because I want to be part of the growth story in India. Why not have others move back and be part of the India growth story as well? So that's when I started interviewing people who have moved back and built massive tech companies. It's been fun.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  And by the way, Pom, if, you know, if you come on my podcast, for that, you need to be in India, you get a free tennis lesson. And we still hang out. But yeah, and then yeah, so what's the next step, right? We've been, I've been creating content. I've been helping these folks understand what India is about, how, you know, what frameworks these folks have used to move back and build companies. What's the next step? Next step for me was, okay, how about I, you know, give capital as well, not just content. And, and yeah, so again, like, for me, literally from day one was, I, you know, this is something I ask myself, whatever I do, career-wise, you know, you have to really, basically you have to, you know, I think we spoke

• 15:45Speaker 02

  about it, where you said like, almost everything is a noise. You just need to figure out what's something just for you. And, you know, no one else can compete with you. So for me, it was very authentic to what I was doing, you know, reverse printing, I moved back, I've been, you know, trying to be, you know, part of the story. And then, and then, yeah, I mean, for, for me, the fund was, okay, I want to raise capital from people that I've admired over the years. I started binging, I started cold emailing, literally every person on this planet is one email away from you. All you need to do is you need to be smart, you need to be thoughtful when you're sending an email. And, and yeah, so that's, that's, that's how the fund came along.

• 16:21Anthony Pompliano?

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• 17:02Anthony Pompliano?

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• 18:28Anthony Pompliano?

  And you keep mentioning reverse brain drain. Explain that concept a little bit more to folks in terms of what that exactly means and how you're seeing this play out on the ground.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so anyone who has moved to a different country for education and then worked for a bit and then you move back and apply those learnings in your country. So I can give you a quick analogy here. So let's say country A started tennis. I'm from country Y. I moved to country A. I trained, practiced with the best people. When I move back to my own country, to a certain extent, I will have an edge. And that's what I meant about the reverse brain drain.

• 19:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, and what is the value of that in India? Obviously, there's an education component. There's a work experience component. But is there also a kind of a knowledge transfer that you're seeing when somebody comes back? Is it just simply being applied to their own companies? One of the statistics that I saw as I was doing a little bit of research, which I almost never do for conversations, but I said, I feel like I gotta make sure I'm prepared for this one, is 40% of the unicorn companies in India have actually been founded or co-founded by somebody who's gone through this kind of reverse brain drain. So 40% is a pretty big number compared to maybe where I would have thought it would come in at.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think few, I would say few reasons. One is when you move to a different country, you're just exposed to people from different cultures. Uh, you know, uh, someone from a different country or different geography and all that. And I think the experience that you get, it really opens up your own worldview. And when you start something, uh, you know, from scratch, I think culture is very, very important. And I think that's where that skill comes in. Uh, secondly, I would say, you know, there's a bunch of companies actually, uh, you know, in India or funds that were, you know, so I'll give you a quick example now. I was chatting with, uh, you know, uh, a fun, a GP name, Saloni.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Uh, she came back and she founded, uh, the first gaming and entertainment, uh, fund uh, in India. And the way it all came down was she was already, she founded a company in, uh, in England, in, in, uh, in gaming space. She worked at a fund that was focused only on gaming. She saw the opportunity, similar things are gonna happen in India. And she came and, and she was literally the best person to do that. And then that's on, she's doing great. So I think, uh, these are the few learnings I would say, uh, that I've seen.

• 21:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Give me an example of kind of the quintessential Indian startup today and kind of what that path looks like. Is there one that sticks out in your mind that, that you can kind of help people not in India actually understand how this is working?

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Um, again, it's bump, I, I didn't get the question.

• 21:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Can you give us an example of like, uh, uh, Indian startup that you're like, this is the, uh, perfect, you know, kind of, uh, company story that we're seeing? So a founder leaves, they go and get educational work experience somewhere else. They come back, they start a business, it specifically solves a problem in India, and then it scales to a large size. Like, is there one story that sticks out to you as, as a great example?

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this couple actually, there's one, he moved back and for him, the reason was, he didn't get his visa approved. His name is Kunal Behal. And he's definitely, you know, one of the most influential founder in India. Now he came back and he built this company called Snapdeal. Again, the learnings from the US and he's been also enabling the ecosystem through investing. There's another guy who came back, you know, he went after building, I would say SoFi in India. I had him on my podcast recently. Again, like the learnings, I saw those patterns in US, came back and went after these problems.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  These are the few that comes to mind.

• 22:26Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you see that kind of story happening, the employees that work at that business, are they mostly from India? Or are these global workforces and they're going outside of India to hire talent as well?

• 22:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, so they're mostly India because you have to have talent from India. I think it works the best once you have, there's a combination of someone coming back, you know, applies learnings back home and someone who has always been India. So that's there, you know, most of these, you know, employees are from here. But what I see is many times the talent that has moved back, they still have connections overseas. That could help them raise capital, that could help them hire good talent, they can come back. I've seen this play out here.

• 23:15Anthony Pompliano?

  What's going on with Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in the country?

• 23:19Speaker 02

  I think, you know, you've got to have JD on your podcast.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  He's the founder of Polygon, but

• 23:28Speaker 02

  I really don't know. It's mostly about wear and watch. Personally, I'm bullish on the technology. And the talent, the talent density is a lot. Another thing I would say, something interesting that happened to India in Web3 spaces is really JD and Sandeep building Polygon.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  And they're really, really enabling the ecosystem. What that means, they are funding other companies. You know, they have funds now lined up. They've been investing. They've been helping. So it's really again, the ecosystem that's been building. And it's there to say, and Web three is global, right? You could be anywhere, could be hiring anywhere.

• 24:09Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you think about something like Bitcoin cryptocurrencies, how important is it for there to be one example? You mentioned Polygon as, okay, there was one example. All the other entrepreneurs see that this is possible to happen in India. And then do you see a big rush of kind of entrepreneurs fast following into an industry?

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. So in fact, Pom, I was having a conversation with one of the investors where there was a trend that I was seeing. I would say, you know, the last three, four months, the good talent was actually migrating to Web three. And what that means, either they were founding companies in Web three, or they were joining Web three company. So to me, that's just a validation. And again, like you should be just following the smart talent, what, you know, where they're headed to. And then that's where you can really, you know, kind of have a sense and go after it.

• 24:59Anthony Pompliano?

  And then talk to me about this conversation. There's going to be a lot of Indian entrepreneurs or even folks who work in the tech industry from India. Maybe they live there or maybe they are still kind of abroad. What's your message to them as to why maybe they should either come home or start a business in India?

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, you know, again, like I was, I was interviewing one of the guys, he's moved back and he's built a billion dollar company. He said, you know, India is a movie, not a picture. And, and one should, you know, stay at it for long enough and you'll get, you'll get what you deserve. So it hasn't even started. With his business, you know, he told me, Shiva, when pandemic hit, I, we thought it's going to be bad for the business, but it was actually the opposite. What ended up happening, you know, from 400K users to, I think, within

• 25:59Speaker 02

  You know, few months, they got to, I think, about three to four million users. And, uh, and, you know, we were just in general talking about, okay, you know, if people are thinking about moving back to India, the traditional advice is it, it, it's either now or never. But the reality is India is only getting better. Uh, and what that means, so he said, you know, the digital revolution that we saw in the last two years was way, was probably more than what we've seen in the previous six years. And the next two years would be even faster. Uh, and the foundation has already been laid, right? These technologies have been built. So at a base level, I'll, I'll talk about the levers, you know, how it all happened.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  So one is Geo. Geo came in and it literally just brought India to the internet. Now we have about almost eight hundred internet users. Uh, UPI came along, uh, that really digitized the, uh, the payment system in India. It's actually the most sophisticated payment system in the world right now. Uh, and then Aadhaar came along. It really digitized the identity or digital identity. So the point is the foundations are laid, uh, and, and this talent, there is capital. So now it'll be easier to come back and build companies and they'll, they'll be scalable, they'll be faster. Uh, and yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I'm pumped. Uh, it's, it's gonna be interesting times ahead.

• 27:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk to me about, uh, nineteen forty-seven Rise Fund. When are you trying to meet founders? Is it pre-seed, seed, series A? What size checks are you looking to write? And, uh, any specific types of companies you're looking for?

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm focused on reverse brain drain talent and highly ambitious Indian founders. I come in at pre-seed and seed. Uh, I'm, I'm sector agnostic. Uh, for me, it all comes down to the team, uh, and the, and then the big market. And team is really about back to that thing, like you just have to have that thing. Okay, this is just for me and, and just no one can compete against me. Uh, and that's, you know, really the kind of people that I'm looking for.

• 28:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then in terms of how people can get in touch with you, where should we send them, uh, to find you on the internet?

• 28:13Speaker 02

  So I'm there on Twitter, uh, Shiva S Sangwan, DM is open. Feel free to, I, I love, uh, sliding into other people's DMs, so feel free.

• 28:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And on the newsletter, what should people get from that? Is that just something that you're putting out in terms of trends and it'll be valuable to investors that aren't based in India as well if they want to know what's going on within the country? Or is it specifically targeted for folks that are in the country of India?

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's anyone who's looking to keep updated with the Indian technology ecosystem. It's a five-minute read and I curate the top news that happened in that week in that ecosystem, basically.

• 28:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Before I let you go, you mentioned my friend Howard Lindzen earlier and I wasn't going to let you get away with, can you say one good thing and one bad thing about Howard? So I can cut this clip and then send it to him and make fun of him?

• 29:06Speaker 02

  You know, I think one thing that I learned from him is, you know, I had only read about it, which is, you know, many times, high performers, there's nothing crazy, crazy about them. But I think one thing which is very hard to do is what I see in him is it doesn't matter how he's feeling, he's gonna just show up, he's gonna be there, he's gonna do the work. And that's something that I've picked up from him. And then I think on the other side, yeah, I think he just needs to get better at tennis.

• 29:43Anthony Pompliano?

  I was gonna say he's not funny because I know that will actually hurt his feelings, but not being good at tennis is probably the second best thing. No, Howard is amazing.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  He tries, he tries to be funny, but yeah.

• 29:56Anthony Pompliano?

  He is the funniest not funny investor that we have, so we'll take it. Is there anything that, anything else that I missed or anything that you think people should know about the Indian ecosystem?

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Again, I think it's a very, very exciting, you know, times in India, especially if you're looking to build from India. And then not just that, even if you're looking to expand to India, this massive market. But another thing is POM. I think my friend Alfonso is asking me, he has a question for you. He's saying, what needs to be true for POM to come to India?

• 30:37Anthony Pompliano?

  So people, I think most people know, I came to India in, I think it was 2015, if I remember correctly, and I spent two weeks in the country. I absolutely loved it. My brother and I went to, I think, five different cities and we did, we did everything, man. It was an absolute blast. And folks always say like, what do you mean you did everything? And I'm like, look, we went and we saw some of the tech scene in Bangalore. We went and we spent New Year's Eve in Goa on the beach. We were, yeah, exactly, right? Like, we had, we had, we had plenty of fun. We were up in Delhi. We went to the Monkey Temple. We literally got motorcycles.

• 31:20Anthony Pompliano?

  This is a great story for you. We got motor, we rented motorcycles and we were driving. And for anyone who's never been to India before, if you think that New York City traffic or somewhere else is bad, there are places in India where traffic is absolutely just unbearable. But the thing that's crazy is if you're on a motorcycle, traffic does not work the same way it works in the US. And so you're kind of like, you know, okay, I'm supposed to be enjoying this, but I'm also trying not to die right now. But it was this amazing experience because we went to all these different places and it's a country that if I had to kind of just like pull out a couple of themes, I think one, from demographics, very young

• 32:01Anthony Pompliano?

  country, right? There's a lot of young people and they're very ambitious, but the energy within the country is just incredible. Like, it was a place where there's only two times that I've really gone on a trip and spent a lot of time meeting with founders and entrepreneurs and walked away with this feeling. One time was in India, one time was in Nigeria, and they both have a lot of similarities in terms of demographics and, and kind of hitting an inflection point. But in India specifically, it just felt like people were there building companies and there was this feeling of inevitable success. Like, we as a group are going to be successful. Some companies will work, some companies won't, but like, we as a group

• 32:43Anthony Pompliano?

  will be successful. And I took it away. And when I came back to the United States, I remember saying to myself, like, a special place, right? And I think that that was probably a trip that It's like, why would I not go back? So it's less about like, will I come back? And it's more about when will I come back? But I need to set up. Now I'm like, feel more educated. So I need to set up kind of a whole little trip throughout the country. So that I can actually see people that I know. At the time, I only knew one person, which was kind of crazy to go there and not really know anybody. But now I feel like the trip would be even more fun than the first time I went.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, absolutely. A lot has changed since 2015. It'll be a different country that you'll be seeing. And I agree with you that, you know, the, again, like the, I think the median age is 27 year old and highly, highly aspirational. Another thing is, I think, you know, a story or, or a theme or, now it's a slogan can really change a country's mindset altogether. I think the Prime Minister of India has done a great, great job. You know, he started the slogan Startup India. And, and I think that's helping India really, I would say that's helping startups go mainstream in India. And if you combine all of these things, which is highly aspirational, young and tech talent, that becomes very powerful. So yeah, it'll be interesting.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  And, and to your point to traffic, I think, you know, the folks in India are very patient.

• 34:10Anthony Pompliano?

  It, it, uh, it is one of these things that every place, traffic in LA sucks. Traffic in Miami sucks, right? New York City sucks. You go anywhere in Europe, traffic sucks. Like it is a universal experience of sitting in traffic nobody likes, but that is one of the downsides to, to growth. And you know where there's no traffic? It's where people don't want to live, right? So at some point, traffic is actually a sign that something's going right. Listen, this is a fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed it. I feel like to some degree, in a positive way, it feels like, you know, it's India versus the world, right?

• 34:53Anthony Pompliano?

  And India is still obviously very collaborative, but there's a ton of great stuff going on there. So for those that are listening or watching that have not done kind of work on, on the Indian ecosystem, I highly suggest that you do it. I think that you're Twitter and newsletter are a great place to to get started. And then folks who obviously are in India, which is actually, I don't think you know this, one of the top three countries that consume the podcast. But for those that are in India and they're building company, they should definitely reach out to you and hopefully, you know, you'll be raising more money over time and continue investing in the ecosystem.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, absolutely. And one, one, one last thing, you know, if someone is new and they're traveling to India, this is how you should be thinking about India in terms of technology. If you're looking to hire talent, just go to Bangalore. That's where the talent density is. If you're looking to build a SaaS company, go to Chennai. That's where, you know, Freshworks came out from Zoho, Chargebee and a bunch of others. Now the network effect is kicking in. If you're looking to sell products and markets or trying or looking to set up a shop for sales or business development, Delhi NCI is the place. And then the Mumbai, Mumbai is, you know, it's a blend of LA, which is again, the culture or the movie,

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Bollywood, amazing music, and, and then the New York. So it's a combination of LA and New York.

• 36:19Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. All right, my friend. I appreciate it very much. Thank you. And we'd definitely do this again in the future as India continues to progress.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Thanks a lot, Pamp. I had a great time.

• 36:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to thecryptoacademy.io. My team and I have been working with the top HR teams in the industry to develop an intensive three-week training program with over 50 live events. We teach you exactly what you need to know to break into the industry, including live interview prep and resume review. Our students have been hired at over 75 of the world's best Bitcoin and crypto companies. Go to thecryptoacademy.io to learn more. Again, that's thecryptoacademy.io. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with your friends and I'll see you all for the next episode.