How to Be More Securely Attached in Relationships with Dr. Amir Levine

We are beyond honored to be joined by the modern master of adult attachment theory – Dr. Amir Levine! The neuroscientist and co-author of the bestselling book Attached, and his new release Secure, is here to explain the four attachment styles and how they dictate our lives, and how anyone (yes, anyone) can become more secure in romantic relationships, friendships, family dynamics, and more. He walks us through the five attributes of secure attachment (CARRP), and the importance of seemingly insignificant minor interactions (SIMIs). We talk about whether an avoidant person and an anxious person can work out romantically, his technique of “wall tennis with love” to use with an avoidant, why predictability in a partner is hot not boring, his rule for managing a conflict with someone you love, and why secure attachment is contagious. Before Amir joins us, Rayna recaps her movers coming, Ashley has an unpopular food opinion to discuss, and we talk about how much your best friend should know about your sex life. Enjoy! Watch Dr. Amir Levine’s MasterClass The Science of Connection, get his books Attached and Secure, and visit his website for more. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Article: Get a beautiful new couch or bed at http://article.com. Rocket Money: Reach your financial goals faster at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. AG1: Get a free morning person hat and free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first subscription at https://drinkAG1.com/gge. FP Movement: Go to http://fpmovement.com/ to shop their full line of activewear and workout gear. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  We can all become more secure. We can learn these little tricks, these little tools to really get us to a more secure place, to act in a more secure way.

• 0:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back. Birthday week.

• 0:35Rayna Greenberg?

  It's my birthday week.

• 0:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  How do you feel?

• 0:38Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel great. I did not have another Raina Palooza in me. I was gonna do it and I really don't know why I thought I was gonna be capable of doing it because I moved this week.

• 0:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  But you've known you didn't want to do it for a minute. Like, you were talking about doing it before you knew when you were gonna move.

• 0:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 0:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, I think your goal was originally to move more in May, which was also psychotic and delusional.

• 0:58Rayna Greenberg?

  How did I think I was gonna?

• 1:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know, girl. And then you'd be, like, settled and have Raina Palooza in June.

• 1:04Rayna Greenberg?

  How did I think I was gonna do that?

• 1:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know.

• 1:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm so underwater right now and we have nothing else going on besides our normal jobs.

• 1:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, the move. I think Raina Palooza is every other year. You know, I like that.

• 1:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or every four years.

• 1:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Or every five years. Yeah, like, make them want it.

• 1:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Four.

• 1:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe I'll do it for 45 and then 50.

• 1:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Every four years, like, the Olympics?

• 1:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Or the World Cup? Either way, it's not a yearly adventure.

• 1:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  It just can't be.

• 1:30Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just...

• 1:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  So make people want it. Make people miss it. You know?

• 1:35Rayna Greenberg?

  We'll do it next year, maybe. We're ready for it next year. All right, well, lots to talk about. Let's just thank our partners and then we'll get into it. Thank you to Article. Get a beautiful new couch, sofa, or bed at article.com. And Rocket Money, reach your financial goals faster at rocketmoney.com slash GGE.

• 1:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to AG1. Get a free Morning Person hat. Oh, I love this hat. I have it. It's great. And free AG1 Flavor Sampler and your welcome kit with your first subscription at drinkag1.com slash GGE. And thank you to FP Movement. Go to fpmovement.com to shop their full line of activewear and workout gear.

• 2:08Rayna Greenberg?

  You guys, I said couch, sofa, or bed, and I meant couch, dining table, or bed.

• 2:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 2:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Because a couch and a sofa are the same thing. But you can go to Article for literally everything. We'll talk about that later.

• 2:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  New couch, sofa.

• 2:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, you know, get a couch sofa.

• 2:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Arena exclusive.

• 2:22Rayna Greenberg?

  So my movers came yesterday and it was a really interesting day. I have been wondering why. So like, we talked about it last week. I felt pensive.

• 2:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 2:32Rayna Greenberg?

  But I don't think it's like hit me. I think I've been like a little bit like suppressing how I feel and it really doesn't hit you until the movers come. And I, my, my feeling is akin to how I felt when I left New York, which is that like, this is going to be painful, even though I know what I'm doing is right. I, I feel it in my soul and my bones and my body. I'm a New Yorker. I want to be back in New York, but like, I feel like I'm also like more in love with LA than ever. And I don't need to like, talk about this forever. You guys listened last week, but it's just, it continues to reiterate to me that like, even though something's hard and painful, doesn't mean that it's the wrong decision. It just was really interesting seeing all these people pack my house up yesterday and like, that is the most important purchase I've ever made in my life. I poured my heart

• 3:14Rayna Greenberg?

  into all the things I did do it and renovated and I'm just like, this is not mine anymore. And it just, I had a lot of feelings about it. I was so proud of it and to turn my back on it 18 months later, I changed my mind. And that's painful and it sucks. And it's, it's, you know, a real like closing of a chapter, but I am like elated, over the moon, can't wait. But it's, you know, it's just a mix of emotions. And I think that like, it reminds me of breakups and I got some like really great messages from our listeners and you guys were so wonderful about our episode last week and Ashley and I talking about both of our decisions to move or stay and Ashley and her husband's decision to move or stay and what we're going to do. And you guys really feel like our wins are your wins and our losses are your losses. And it, it means so much. And I got so many messages today, people saying like, they reframed it, our relationship to their romantic

• 3:58Rayna Greenberg?

  relationships and deciding whether to leave and feeling like just because you're leaving, things don't have to change. And I don't know, it just, it really stuck with me these emotional.

• 4:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  I never know like, what's gonna make me emotional. I just, I think a lot of it is our audience too. Like I woke up this morning and like, you know, I was just like glance at the comments just to see if there's something I missed. And it just was like overwhelmingly positive. And yeah, and like people just rooting for us and like, this is my favorite type of episode because it's like you. Guys and your friendship and being open about it and stuff. So.

• 4:34Rayna Greenberg?

  You guys are just, you're wonderful and you're so open with us. And I got a lot of messages about like feeling like you want to leave a relationship and you're not sure and like just because something hurts doesn't mean it's the wrong decision and all these things. And obviously really nice message about our friendship and just being at this point in your life where you feel like the only single girl amongst your friends and what do I do? And I would never recommend somebody like completely shut the door to their entire community. I'm very lucky that you and I have a huge community of friends in both LA and New York and the decision can be easier for me. I'm not getting up and going somewhere where I don't know anybody.

• 5:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. Yeah. And this doesn't come easily, you know, like I think there are a lot of decisions in life. It's like, fuck it. Like we said last week, but a lot of them take a lot of decision making and consideration and planning, planning, logistics, like all of that.

• 5:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Money.

• 5:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, right.

• 5:19Rayna Greenberg?

  A lot of money that I can't ever get back.

• 5:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't imagine what you must feel like because you bought that house and it was your first house you bought. And that's such a big deal and I still haven't done that. And I don't know what that feels like. I can relate to when I moved from New York and wasn't sure what the future would hold, but I was moving out of my apartment. That meant so much to me. That was my first expensive, nice apartment. And like the day the movers came was the day it hit me, like seeing him with all my stuff down the hallway. I was like, this is like gutting me for a lot of reasons and I didn't even own that apartment. It just meant so much to me and we were, we were leaving New York, even though we thought it wasn't really permanent. But just that alone, that like this was a huge milestone for you. You didn't just rent that house. I think it would hit different.

• 6:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I walk around the house. I'm camping out of the house now for the next week. I'm here. There's nothing in it. I have a bed and I have one stool in the kitchen. We'll put a photo up in the, on the screen, but I just, I mean, I certainly walk around and see dollar signs, but I see all the little touches that were so important to me. It's so weird when you like really think you want something and you could be wrong.

• 6:25Rayna Greenberg?

  So anyways, thank you guys for always being along on the journey of us and being so supportive and the messages about our friendship and how this hit home for you. And we just love you guys. You know, I'm here to reiterate that. But yesterday I had this funny moment where like all the movers were at my house and I, it like hit me, I like really had to take a shit.

• 6:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my god.

• 6:42Rayna Greenberg?

  And I have three bathrooms in my house. Like I should be able to pick one, but they were just

• 6:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Everywhere. Oh my god.

• 6:48Rayna Greenberg?

  And I was just like, I don't like, there was a guy in my bedroom, packing up the bedroom. There was a guy in the guest bedroom and there was a guy in the kitchen. That's where all my bathrooms are. And so I was just like, I don't know what to do. So I drove to the studio.

• 6:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  To shit. You can't ever hear to shit. Oh my god.

• 7:00Rayna Greenberg?

  And there was like a children's church choir going on here.

• 7:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh yeah.

• 7:04Rayna Greenberg?

  And like, there was just like, there was a pastor and there was children and there was like a daycare and I had to like walk in through the daycare.

• 7:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is so wholesome. I'm allowed to go blow it up in the public bathroom.

• 7:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 7:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  This kid walks in, he's like, mommy, why is this smell in here?

• 7:16Rayna Greenberg?

  I was glad that they were so loud. I mean, that was the loudest choir.

• 7:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  When you try to make a bunch of noise when you're taking a shit. But instead it was children being like, hallelujah.

• 7:28Rayna Greenberg?

  So there are people here during the day on the weekends.

• 7:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. I've never been here on a Sunday.

• 7:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I can't shit with four men in my house. Like you need them to respect you a little bit.

• 7:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  That is so funny. You like tap a glass. Men, I'd like you to leave the premises for the next 15 to 20 minutes. Momma's gotta shit.

• 7:45Rayna Greenberg?

  And then I had to text your brother. I text your, I've moved so much. I moved to an Airbnb, then to a house, then to another house, then to another house. The last four years I've moved like four times. I text your brother once a year and ask him what to tip the movers because I really don't know. Like I texted your brother yesterday morning. I was like, hey, it's my yearly question.

• 8:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  That is so funny.

• 8:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't know what to ask.

• 8:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  I always give him a hundred.

• 8:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I gave everybody a hundred and then I gave the guy who like the former guy, I gave him a hundred and 40.

• 8:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. My brother, his moving company, Black Time Moving, you guys can check them out. They do moves everywhere.

• 8:16Rayna Greenberg?

  That's why I asked him. But I mean, I do, I do ask Matt pretty much everything.

• 8:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 8:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Anything masculine. Well, Shashank and I have been talking about my car because I am going to sell the car.

• 8:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Shashank is the cargo too.

• 8:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Immediate. It's, it's the only thing I've ever solo texted Shashank about.

• 8:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like I'll look over him like Brittany's texting him. It's just so funny. So Shashank's your car guy. Matt's your home guy.

• 8:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Matt's pretty much catch all for everything else.

• 8:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Shashank's tech too.

• 8:40Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't text anybody about tech. Rob.

• 8:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Rob, yeah. I mean, Shashank has replaced Rob in that way for me. Tech wise, he handles all my tech.

• 8:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't think I have a tech guy at the moment. I don't need any, I don't have any tech, I don't have any tech needs.

• 8:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  But Rob would be.

• 8:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but car, Shashank and Shashank and I were debating whether I should sell my car. What would it cost to fix the car?

• 8:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  You've really banged it up since you've been here.

• 9:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Really? No, just two like chong.

• 9:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's always something.

• 9:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Two dings.

• 9:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's always the mirror. Every time Shashank comes over, she's like, can you put that mirror back on? I'm like, this fucking mirror.

• 9:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I had to get the mirror actually fixed.

• 9:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, we never talked about was when you talked about all those recalls. So many people in the comments were like, oh, you didn't know what it was like to have a Jeep. I guess they're known for recalls. Yeah. All the people are like, oh yeah, Raina, welcome to the world of Jeep ownership.

• 9:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I thought Jeeps were like the best. I've never had a problem with my Jeep.

• 9:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  People did not echo you in the comments.

• 9:32Rayna Greenberg?

  There are a lot of recalls, but I've never had a, in three years, I've never had a single problem with the car. However, there's 11,000 miles on my car. Like I'm not beating this car up.

• 9:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 9:42Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm barely in it.

• 9:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 9:43Rayna Greenberg?

  So anyways, I'm selling the car, I guess.

• 9:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Oh, you are.

• 9:46Rayna Greenberg?

  So this week I will move into my new place. We'll celebrate my birthday and that's it. Then I will live in New York, but I feel like you and I are just going to be together continuously. Like there's no time off.

• 9:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Like, I don't know. We've, we've just been talking about it and what's kind of settled in, how our life is going to look. And I was like, well, Raina, you haven't really been around this year. You've been touring a lot, like socially, you know, like no one ever thinks you're in town. You know, like I will certainly feel a void. It is very sad for me. I want to be clear, but we have vacations planned and all this travel. So I'm like, when am I going to feel it like that? Like when is my life going to feel different? It will, but I don't know when I'm not looking forward to it.

• 10:28Rayna Greenberg?

  We're together continuously.

• 10:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but Raina, we're going to be. We're having this conversation before you even move. So it is something that's going to hit and it's going to be upsetting.

• 10:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Hear me out.

• 10:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  You need to validate that.

• 10:38Rayna Greenberg?

  I just was like, we are going to be together all the time. We're going to be in New York together and then we're going to go to Europe together. And then we're going to go to Dewey together and then I'll be in LA, I'm sure. And then we're going to spend Labor Day together. I mean, we're going to get more time together than we actually have.

• 10:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is what she did. She was like, you know what? If I move away, I'll be able to get her on vacation more.

• 10:56Rayna Greenberg?

  We've not spent that much time together since January, since I've been, now we're going to be together all the time. The minute we get back from Europe, we're going to go to Dewey. And then I'll be in LA probably and then Labor Day.

• 11:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, great.

• 11:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Clock it.

• 11:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Clock it. Okay, so Shashank and I had this fun little day on Saturday. We just ran around, went to eat at this really great place. We wanted to go, they were like walking down Abikini. And we ended up having a drink at Owa, which is a great place in Abikini, sushi, drinks, such fun vibes. And I've always wanted to sit, like, there's a bar that faces the street, and like these high stools, probably the most uncomfortable stools in Venice, I would say, but you know, whatever, it's fine, maybe the world.

• 11:35Rayna Greenberg?

  They're so little, they're like trying to fit your butt on this.

• 11:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  If you're, like, my brother, Rob, couldn't sit in.

• 11:42Rayna Greenberg?

  I've seen Rob try to sit on it. Remember when he came to Owa, he like stood the whole time?

• 11:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, like Matt couldn't, though. Like, he would be like, I'm not, I'm, I guess I'm gonna stand or we're gonna go somewhere else. You know, like, Matt has to assess the restaurant when he walks in, see where he can actually physically fit, whatever. So, but we, I've never really sat on the street like that, like facing the street. And so we're sitting there having beers, talking, and Raina just pops up.

• 12:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Raina takes my walk every day.

• 12:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know, but like, you did pop up like you had, like, our location. Like, how did you know we were there?

• 12:12Rayna Greenberg?

  What do you mean? I take the same walk seven days a week down the same street. And I saw this color blue, and it reminded me of the blue from Lavain's, Lavain Cookies packaging. And I was like, I must go get a Lavain cookie. And so I, it's right next to Owa's. It's the walk I do every day.

• 12:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so, I'm gonna jump in here and talk about Lavain. So first of all, it's Lavain, but you, I, I just know this because it's, I did a partnership with them years ago, and it's French, but I accept Lavain, right? Like, it's fine. But if people are gonna be in the comments, it's Lavain.

• 12:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Grow up, people.

• 12:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Either or works in this conversation. I wasn't correcting you. I like to say Lavain, but unfortunately, they gave me talking points and I had to say it right. I can't believe you haven't asked about Shashank's review, because that was his first Lavain cookie.

• 12:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I was a little drunk when we left Owa, and I forgot until right the second that we went there together. I forgot that I was like, before you guys drive me home, can we go get cookies together?

• 13:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was a little buzzed up too. You had like three glasses of rosé.

• 13:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I was drunk. I went to bed at 9:00 PM.

• 13:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, we're gonna talk about what happened, but I just feel like I have an unpopular opinion to share.

• 13:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, I don't think this is gonna be that unpopular, but tell me.

• 13:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  What do you think it's gonna be?

• 13:22Rayna Greenberg?

  I think you're gonna tell me that's just, it's too much cookie.

• 13:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, it's not too much cookie, it's too much chocolate chip. Okay.

• 13:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Did you guys get the chocolate chip cookie?

• 13:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but it's not just them. It's, so I love a Levine cookie, but it's, it's a top tier. I gotta be clear. I love the Bristol Farms cookie here in LA. I think that's an incredible cookie.

• 13:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Beverly Hills cookie?

• 13:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Beverly Hills cookie, yes. We have amazing chocolate chip cookies. My unpopular opinion is some of these cookies need less chocolate chips.

• 13:49Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm totally with you.

• 13:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  They are so densely packed. Like, what is the point of the cookie? I could just be eating chocolate chips, or I could eat a Hershey's bar. Like, what, I, I love the cookie dough. That's the compliment to the cookie.

• 14:00Rayna Greenberg?

  What are we doing? And there, every time I order a chocolate chip cookie from there, they correct, they go, you mean double chocolate chip? And I'm like, first of all, you know what I mean? And second of all, oh, it's, why, why are we doubling it up?

• 14:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  So is that their standard chocolate chip cookie is a double chocolate chip cookie?

• 14:15Rayna Greenberg?

  What you gotta do is get the chocolate chip walnut.

• 14:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course you do.

• 14:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Which is less.

• 14:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's, it is a little less. I always go towards a chocolate chip with walnut, or I love a chocolate chip cookie with sea salt. I like a balanced ratio of cookie dough and chocolate.

• 14:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I get their oatmeal raisin.

• 14:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, we got the carrot cake, and you probably were too drunk to remember.

• 14:35Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I remember this.

• 14:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  The carrot cake is a sleeper hit. It has some white chocolate, I think, in it, or macadamia. Like, it's so bomb. Their fucking carrot cake cookie, now you guys have probably turned on me, but I just feel like some of these chocolate chip cookies, is this really what people want? It's just chocolate chips.

• 14:50Rayna Greenberg?

  It's too much.

• 14:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  I need a ratio of dough.

• 14:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm trying to eat the cookie.

• 14:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  I want the cookie.

• 14:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't wanna be drowning in chocolate. I feel like it is just pouring down my throat.

• 15:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  So sometimes, like, if there's an opportunity, when you, I go get a cookie, to pick one, I pick one that looks less densely packed.

• 15:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Me too. I'm, I, this is not a unpopular opinion to me.

• 15:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 15:11Rayna Greenberg?

  And I can't wait to go after a problem with one right now.

• 15:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think that these companies who thinks this is what people want, they, they must.

• 15:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I just think people really like chocolate, and I just, I'm more of like a savory person, and to me, like, cookies are not a savory food, but they're not as sweet as chocolate.

• 15:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just eat chocolate then.

• 15:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cookie dough is also sweet, but I guess it has a little.

• 15:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Also, when you melt it, it's more intense. Cookie dough, I could eat with more chocolate chips because they're crunchy and I like that texture.

• 15:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I do think a chocolate chip cookie with a little sea salt is, that's my shit.

• 15:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, hell yeah.

• 15:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  And so it's just, I want Levine, Levine to make a half chocolate chip. Let's take double out of it.

• 15:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Why are we doubling?

• 15:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Let's have chocolate.

• 15:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Who gave this feedback?

• 15:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm telling you, I'm curious. You guys have got to let us know in the comments. And again, if you're a real chocolate slut, which I really do think I was when I was younger, I could handle more sweet. Maybe I would want this, but now I just need a more balanced ratio.

• 16:11Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm with you.

• 16:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 16:11Rayna Greenberg?

  No feedback. Okay. So this very funny thing happened when we were at Oa. So this guy had asked me, it's not somebody I was on a date with. He's just somebody I flirt with sometimes.

• 16:21Rayna Greenberg?

  That's fine. Not somebody I'm ever gonna date or I wasn't to date.

• 16:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Definition of your relationship, somebody I flirt with sometimes.

• 16:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. He asked me what I was doing and earlier in the day, and I said, he wanted to get a coffee. There's no point in this conversation. I said, I might be on Abbot Kinney.

• 16:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think people would want to know how we got here.

• 16:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, okay. So he texted me and said, what are you doing today? You want to get a coffee? And I said, no, I have to pack. And if you want to come down to Abbot Kinney, I'll walk down to Abbot Kinney. And he was like, maybe later. And I was like, little fuck boy. And then I just forgot about it. Maybe later. Guys, say maybe to you. Go on with your day.

• 16:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 16:50Rayna Greenberg?

  You don't have plans.

• 16:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  If you have friends, okay. Yeah, I'm gonna make alternate plans.

• 16:54Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, he initiated the initial plan and then gave me a maybe. I was like, I will see myself. I'll just do my day. Anyways, I had walked down to visit, to visit you guys on Abbot Kinney. And he texted me and said, like, what are you up to? I can meet you there now. And I was like, great. Come down and meet us. So he came down to meet us. And we really had fun, the four of us.

• 17:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we. But then it was funny because then Rain and I took the uncomfortable stools and they had stood on the street.

• 17:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Stand on the street.

• 17:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  So it was very funny. Like, it was like a meet and greet. Like, they had to stand in the window on the street and we were sitting inside. That's very funny for us to be in the restaurant there on the street.

• 17:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I started off on the street and there, it's elevated up into the restaurant and you guys are so tall. So I was really down there.

• 17:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  The men can stand on the street. We're gonna take the seats.

• 17:34Rayna Greenberg?

  But as we got drunker, I flirt here and I forget why we started talking about sleeping with each other. Probably just because it's fun to. Talk about. I forget what he asked to open the conversation. We just started talking like what I like in bed and like oral and different sex positions. And if you could pick two sex positions, like which two would you pick? And you just started like jumping in and telling him like what I like with like precisional accuracy.

• 17:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't think I could. It was, it felt like it was the rose looking back. Like I was on one. Like, I don't know if I could replicate that today. But yeah, I just did like a whole monologue.

• 18:05Rayna Greenberg?

  You were just like, she likes watching people jerk off and you could jerk off. He was like, do you like to be blowjobs? And the come talk. And then I was like, I like when people go down. I mean, you're like, you haven't been liking that. And I was like, lately, I've been liking it. And you were like, you guys should 69. And then we were talking about liking 69ing. And then you were like, it's type two fun for her. She just likes to think about it later. And like, and then you were like, you should see her butthole. It's so nice. Like, it is a world-class butthole.

• 18:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I wondered, like, when I got home, I was laying in bed, just sporadically laughing about this. I laughed about this for days, but like, I was wondering if like, I mean, you and I just talk about this every week and what I like and like have talked about this for a decade. But like, I wonder if other girls could do this with their girlfriends. Like, it wasn't even weird. Like, your husband was there, this guy that I'm with is there. The four of us are just going back and forth. Like, actually, Shishank, I don't think participated. He was like, I'm gonna let them look.

• 18:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  He really was just like, where am I?

• 18:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. He was like, I'm gonna be watching sports on my phone. But like, I wonder if other people could do this with their friends, like with such precision.

• 19:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people could do this about you.

• 19:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Raina, like, I don't know if my knowledge of your sex life comes from our private conversations or this podcast or both. Like, you and I don't sit around that much and talk about what you like in bed. It's been on a mic. It's a lot of it's happening at live shows. Like, I don't know. It's, I can't decide. I guess I have a few extra tidbits from private conversations, but most of it's public knowledge.

• 19:34Rayna Greenberg?

  You don't think this is a two people have a podcast thing. You just think it's a me thing?

• 19:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  No.

• 19:38Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel like the comments are gonna be, every person is gonna be like, yeah, I know what Raina likes to bed.

• 19:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I think people know what I like too.

• 19:44Rayna Greenberg?

  But you think me more so than other people?

• 19:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, a little more, maybe. But we both. I think people know what I like too.

• 19:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Like I could do this with you for sure. Maybe not with as much precision. I'm, I think I get more disgusting.

• 19:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I think that I just have a lot of exposure to what you like.

• 20:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think, but I think someone who's listened to every episode and has come to a few live shows also does. And I think they could have done that same thing if they have a good recall.

• 20:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm really graphic. I mean.

• 20:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  You were just open.

• 20:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 20:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know?

• 20:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I wondered if people can do this with their girlfriends. Let us know if you guys could all, you guys all feel like you could sub out for Ashley and have this conversation with anybody.

• 20:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, it feels less of a friendship and more of can you name your favorite podcasters? Sex preferences, because I don't know that I can do this for another friend.

• 20:34Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't know if that's because of the closeness of our relationship.

• 20:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. I mean, I've been talking with Corey about sex for our whole friendship and we've been friends since we like lost our virginity, even friends since we were four years old. So I think I could do a pretty good job and I know what her and her husband are into. And he knows, I know these things about him. We've sent them sex toys and all kinds of stuff, but certainly not, not like I could do with you. I mean, it's like your sex life is part of my job.

• 21:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Also, I feel like a lot of stuff is on the menu for me. Like I'm just open to a lot of, like I have like one, like best friend and she's a very sexual person. She has a lot of sex, but she, she doesn't like to dirty talk. She doesn't masturbate. She doesn't want to go down on guys. Like I know all this stuff she doesn't like, but I'm not like, there's all this stuff on the menu for you.

• 21:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 21:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Like I just, I'll put a lot of stuff on the menu. There's a lot to talk about.

• 21:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 21:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Like Ashley was like, she likes to watch guys jerk off and she likes to.

• 21:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  I like nailed it. I was like, man, that was solid.

• 21:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, thank God he's a comedian because otherwise like a normal person, I don't know if they could have handled that. You think just like a normal dude would have like?

• 21:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  No.

• 21:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Even your husband didn't want to participate.

• 21:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  The normal dude in the group didn't.

• 21:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Like a normal person with a normal job.

• 21:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, or they would have like taken it to judge you or like kind of put you in a box. I don't know what the word I'm looking for. Just I don't look at you differently.

• 21:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that to like put you in this like really slutty box. I mean, I've definitely had people that I've gone on dates with, like learn that we own a sex toy company or learn that like we talk about sex on the show and they do. See me through this lens of like this girl's gonna fuck me and do anything. And it's like, I'm allowed to say this stuff.

• 22:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 22:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Ashley's allowed to say this stuff. You don't get to say this stuff.

• 22:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. And we're comedians.

• 22:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 22:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, we're like.

• 22:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Mentally ill.

• 22:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're performing right now. No, there was a moment where I was like, what are we doing here? This is a live podcast onsite at Oahu. You're welcome.

• 22:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I know. People would get to sit around us sometimes like at airports.

• 22:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  The servers. We're like, what is going on over here? All right, guys. Well, let us know if you could describe, you know, I just think people are gonna be like, no, I could tell you so much more of what Raina likes than my best friend.

• 22:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm dying to know. I think that's probably true. I also think that when people are in very serious relationships, they don't talk about that stuff as much. I am not talking to even my closest friends about their serious partners' sex lives. And if I do, it's because they're talking to me more as like a therapist, because you and I do this so much. It's like, I think our friends come to us with like, I'm having a real problem, not like, I don't really want to know about like my friends' serious partners' dicks. And I mean, I'll, I'll listen.

• 23:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it is interesting. It's like, I always think about this. Is it age and growing up? Or is it the level of commitment? Like, are you talking more graphically about your long-term boyfriends and your sex life in your twenties or your early thirties as opposed to your husband in your forties? And then it's not even really like, it's husband, I guess, but more long-term relationship. Like, is it that we outgrow some of that? Or is it because our relationships are more serious or their marriages? And it, it's not, I don't know. I want to say sad, it's like you miss it, you know, and I do love when you you get going with your best friends who may or may not be married or in long-term relationships or whatever it may

• 23:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  be, and everybody's sharing and not too much, you know, they're not oversharing and they're certainly not going to say anything that makes their husband or their long-term partner look bad, but like you miss it sometimes, like those are fun conversations to have and like sometimes when they happen at this age, you're like, God, this is all we used to do.

• 24:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that people in serious relationships have less sex, they have less crazier sex.

• 24:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, crazy stories, yes.

• 24:16Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that life gets in the way and stress and kids and jobs and money and I think you just there are less stories in general.

• 24:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's totally true.

• 24:22Rayna Greenberg?

  I think when a friend starts to talk to us about their serious relationships because they're not having sex.

• 24:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, yeah, and you're totally right, like you've been married for 10 years, like, I don't know, what would Corey say, you guys, last night? I mean, we do know some things and like her and Ham have a great sex life, but like, you know, they have a bunch of kids and I love that they're still doing it, but it's like, she's not going to come to me unless it was crazy. And that's 10 years later, what would it even be? Like, where did he put it?

• 24:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I broke his dick, right?

• 24:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  What did you guys do? I'm hanging from the ceilings.

• 24:50Rayna Greenberg?

  What's left?

• 24:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like you get older and the conversations turn to like grievances and like, we're not having enough sex, or he can't get like all these different things. So I don't know, it's it's just like to the younger ladies listening, like those moments that you're having, even if you're like, God, we're all just like, single and don't want to be and running around and sleeping with whoever, but you're going to those happy hours and you're sharing all these stories, like just know that this won't be like this forever. And it goes back to like our conversation with Toon Day and just know that you're really doing it and like appreciate those moments and cherish them because you're not going to do that when you're you're all married.

• 25:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 25:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's a good times.

• 25:25Rayna Greenberg?

  It's a good reminder. Sometimes you do just, I miss that stuff sometimes, you know, and then if in your 40s, if you're still doing that, I mean, you're the only person left to entertain anybody.

• 25:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, it's like it's Sex and the City, you know, and I think that was like a pretty realistic depiction, you know, like you had Samantha, who was telling everybody everything because she was single and sleeping around in the best way. And then Charlotte, who's like, these are the problems I need to talk about with my girlfriends, with my both of my husbands. And then Miranda, Steve's one ball, I'm pregnant, whatever. And then Carrie and all her toxic bullshit. Like, I feel like that's a really realistic depiction of women 30s, 40s.

• 26:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, for sure. All right. Well, if you are just like drunk sluts running around, enjoy it.

• 26:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Carrie in the friend group on your back, like Samantha.

• 26:08Rayna Greenberg?

  My going away party here is gonna be me and three couples and you guys are so lucky. Actually, I already texted the group. I fucked the bartender.

• 26:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Raina, I like forgot. So if you, I'm not gonna,

• 26:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I would say arguably one of your best bits in your, in your hour.

• 26:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Ever.

• 26:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  And the, and the physical comedy of it all.

• 26:29Rayna Greenberg?

  That I've done, yeah.

• 26:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Is this guy who I forgot is the bartender at the restaurant. And that's where you chose to go?

• 26:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. It felt chaotic.

• 26:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's the perfect send off. I wouldn't want to have your goodbye dinner at a place where you hadn't fucked somebody.

• 26:42Rayna Greenberg?

  So I thought about like, where do I want to go? And I thought like Kobe's, you and I and Taylor have had like really wonderful cozy dinners.

• 26:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm just laughing. Like, that's the requirement. You're like, what places have I fucked the bartender? Where has someone that works here have teabagged me? Okay, here's our options.

• 27:02Rayna Greenberg?

  So I was like running through the list and I was like Kobe's in Santa Monica is so wonderful. Enrique Alibera just opened up a new restaurant in Venice on Apikini.

• 27:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Nope, haven't fucked anyone that works there.

• 27:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Literally.

• 27:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Kobe's there. Also, the other night we were at a bar and like, I was also kind of drunk and Shashank told me that one of our friends' exes was inside the bar with a date and I just go, I'm about to go be chaotic and just walked into the bar.

• 27:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Shashank just doesn't like, I don't even know. Do you think he reveled in that moment? He went and got drinks. He was gone for a while. The bar was getting kind of crowded to come back with that news. Like, I would have been sprinting. I would have sprinted back from the bar slashing margaritas. You'll never believe it. And he was just like, anyway, so so and so's at the bar. We're like, oh, okay. Raina gets up immediately.

• 27:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I was like, I'm gonna go cause some chaos and just like ran into the bar. It was so fun for me.

• 27:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 27:58Rayna Greenberg?

  I drank a lot this week.

• 28:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it was more than usual. And I was feeling a little sluggish this morning.

• 28:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Not me.

• 28:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's talk about our partners. I am telling you guys about AG1. You know what? Let's just get right into it because if you are feeling that type of way, this is a great way to combat that sluggishness and that lack of energy. It is a daily health drink with a multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants. One scoop, eight ounces of water, just chug it down and it's really a great thing to incorporate into your daily routine. The next gen formula delivers 75 plus ingredients backed by four clinical trials, clinically shown to support gut health, fill common nutrient gaps and improve key nutrient levels within three months. So as we're getting into summer, I mean, I think that's just how it be, you know, you're maybe drinking more, you're just sleeping less, traveling more, running around, having the time of your life, late nights, long weekends,

• 28:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  spontaneous plans. AG1 helps you keep one thing consistent. It is going to be that high quality nutritional support every single day, no matter where you start your morning, take it on the go, the travel packs, it really can fit so easily into your daily routine. So you guys can visit drinkag1.com/gg to get a free morning person hat and free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription and $82 value. That's drinkag1.com/gg. And I love this hat. It's just like a really solid dad hat. And I think it's funny to wear if you aren't a morning person too. Like, it's just a great hat. It's like a conversation starter. So anyway, get that hat, you guys. Drinkag1.com/gg.

• 29:27Rayna Greenberg?

  All right, I'm moving. What a better time to talk about furniture than right now. So Article, can't recommend it enough. I absolutely love what they have. They make it effortless to create stylish, long-lasting homes at an unbeatable price. So if you go on Article's website, you'll see tons of different styles. So my style at my house in Venice has always been really coastal and boho, but in New York, I want to make it just like a little more edgy, more colors. So they offer mid-century modern, they do Scandi-inspired pieces, but like, everything is curated really beautifully. If you're like, I have no idea how to curate a space, just go on their website and look. Obviously, people are looking for outdoor furniture at this time of year. They have furniture that is just second to none. They have patio furniture. They have great tables for outside. I just love the quality of everything and the delivery is fantastic.

• 30:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Fantastic. So I love this LuBeck, L U B E K, outdoor. Love the seed and they have it in all these different colors. So you can look at different finishes and colors, but truly like finding outdoor furniture can be kind of tough because it can be kind of low quality and articles is

• 30:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my gosh, last forever. Like I still have stuff from Article from New York patio moved here, still using it, like still looks great. The colors haven't really faded even. It's I don't really even cover it or anything. I just let it sit outside. And yeah, it's just, it's really still so great. Still so quality.

• 30:44Rayna Greenberg?

  And their shipping is fast and affordable. The assembly is fantastic. They have great customer support. It's really important. Ashley and I had a work of companies of great support. They have support seven days a week and they have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. So if you are in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table, or bed, or outdoor furniture, head to article.com.

• 31:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's get into it.

• 31:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome our guest today. He is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and co-author of the bestselling book Attached, which transformed the way people think about relationships and attachment styles. As an associate professor of psychiatry at Columbia University, he has become one of the leading voices on the science of human connection. His new book, Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life, is out now, as well as his masterclass, The Science of Connection: Rewire Relationships to Last with Attachment Theory. Please welcome to the show Dr. Amir Levine.

• 31:32Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm glad to be here.

• 31:34Rayna Greenberg?

  We are really glad to have you.

• 31:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  So we were just chatting with you a little bit before we started recording about how incredible and widespread, I mean, your book is just, it's this number one book, Attached, obviously Secure will be the same, but it's been out for a month. In the zeitgeist and any relationship expert podcast, this whole entire world, did you ever, did you think that when you were writing it, where you were like, I got a real banger on my hands? Have you been surprised at?

• 32:04Speaker 00

  I mean, definitely not. We used to have like this, I wrote it with my best friend from high school and we had this running joke that he's only going to sell one copy to the Library of Congress because we just never really imagined that he would get to where he got. No, ever.

• 32:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, you really are. I mean, attachment theory isn't new, but romantic attachment theory, you really are like the father of this concept.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  So that's exactly when I came across that, that's exactly what I felt because it has been around, actually, since the late 80s. Actually, the first, the first paper about adult attachment was published in 1987, but it was really buried in academic lingo, these adult attachment styles. And I came across it by chance because I was working with mothers and kids and we're doing secure therapy for the mothers, like they were trauma survivors and we're working with them. And I knew about attachment styles in kids because I'm also a child psychiatrist. But I loved their work so much that I did something you never do in any of those rotations as a resident, you're on call, you never have any time. But I read, they always gave you this

• 33:13Speaker 00

  suggested reading list and I read everything on the suggested reading list. And that's where I came across these adult attachment styles. And at the time I was going through a breakup and it was so painful, it was, I think, probably the most painful breakup of my life. And all of a sudden, it explained so many things. It's like I went from seeing relationships in black and white to seeing relationships in color. And it explained so many things to me that I knew that this is just like, it felt like an epiphany. So basically what I did, I took all those, those concepts that were buried in academic lingo and I translated them to something that people can use in everyday life.

• 33:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, it's amazing and it's really, I'm going to start working. I have to tell you, it's funny, my mom's a psychologist and many years ago, I said to her, this guy invented attachment theory. So I actually thought that you were the father of the whole concept, but.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  No, you know who did that? It's, yeah, no, it's John Bowlby, actually, that invented it. But there is something to be said about translating it too, because it could, it could have stayed. And to tell you the truth, when the book came out and I said, I want, we really want to write about this because it's so helpful. And also my friend, we were friends from high school. It's like, oh my, if we had this in our twenties, it would have been so helpful to understand that. And so there's really something to be said about also taking that academic lingo and then making it into something that people can actually use.

• 34:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Digest.

• 34:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 34:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean,

• 34:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  The book that changed my life in my twenties was He's Just Not That Into You. That's all we had. I mean, so it's just, it's like, I wish we would have had this. We could have looked at it so differently.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  I know exactly because you know something? It's just like, like, it sounds like he's not that into you. And it was so popular because sometimes people do behave in a way where, and we can talk about that. That's kind of like what avoidance do. Like they, oh, no, I can't meet tomorrow. And then they're telling, well, he's just not that into you. But then they give you other messages too. So it's only, we're that simple. He's not just that into you. I wish it were that simple, but that's why we're the attachment sample. It really gives you more depth into understanding what's going on.

• 35:19Rayna Greenberg?

  So we want to talk to you about your new book and the masterclass. But maybe we start really quickly by just explaining if somebody lives under a rock, what attachment theory is and what the romantic attachment styles are.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Right, so attachment theory was like actually invented by John Bowlby, who basically said that attachment is a basic need, just like food and water. We need to attach to other people. And before that, the Freudian thought was that we attach to others, like the infant attaches to the mother because she gives him sustenance and she takes care of him and that's why. But Bowlby said, no, no, no, it really is a basic need. And he saw that because it was during World War II and their kids were separated from their families and they failed to thrive. But Bowlby also said that we attach, our attachment needs like start when we're born and end like to our last, to the last of our days.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  And that's when later on in the eighties, they saw that also it actually functions as an important part in, in romantic relationships too. And before we even go to the attachment styles, I have to say, so people really have to understand what it means like basic need is a basic need. And people oftentimes feel so bad that they really want to find someone and without it, their life feels incomplete. And people say, well, but you should, you, you have to learn to love yourself first. Or you have to, like, all these, like, you need to learn to be alone and things like that. But if it's a basic need, you can't say that. Imagine if I were to tell you right now, or ask you, oh, like, you have to learn to go without food or without water and be fine with it.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  So if we understand that it's a basic need, we can't have it both ways. You can't tell us, oh, you have to learn to be alone. I'm sorry, it's a basic need, something that we need.

• 37:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, human disconnection, for sure.

• 37:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, and when you say that, do you you mean connection and love in general from family, friends? Or do you feel like romantic love is a basic need?

• 37:17Speaker 00

  I think all of the above, and that's where we get into the attachment styles, that we don't all need the same thing. We need different things, and that's where the attachment styles come in. Like, people who have anxious attachment styles, they want a lot of closeness, but they also need a lot of reassurance. Because if they're very, and we can talk about that, they can insecure. You'll see, it's actually, in a way, a superpower. They see a lot of things that other people can't see, and they can identify things that other people can't identify. And so they need to feel safe, and they need the environment to be safe. So, and they want a lot of closeness. But people who are avoidant, they also want to be attached to others and be close to others.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  But there's a caveat there, they don't feel comfortable with too much closeness. And when there's too much closeness, they start to feel, eh, like, no, it doesn't feel good to me, stay away a little bit. And they have, we call it the active any strategies, different ways in which you can, like, keep some distance, create the measure of distance from the other person. And people who are secure, they are blood type O. They love, they like closeness a lot. And like you, they'll give you as much closeness as you want, but if, even if you create distance with them, they don't really care that much. Whereas the anxious were like, oh, my God, this is this, this is the end of their relationship. I know it's the beginning of the end, they probably wouldn't even notice.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  So let's say, if someone's secure, you want to hold their hands all the time, they'll hold your hands all the time, it's not a problem. You don't want, you want to, they want, you want to walk a few steps ahead of them, and then was like, like, walking behind you? That's fine for them too, they're not going to take it to heart. So they get along, they're very easy to get along with. So these are the three main attachment styles. And then there's fearful avoidant, which is a combination of anxious and avoidant. One hand, stay away. One hand, come, come close.

• 39:09Rayna Greenberg?

  And these are, these aren't fixed for everybody, right? You can kind of vacillate between these depending on who your partner is and which stage of life you're in.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  So that's like a key question because like in attached, we treat it more as categories. It's more like, okay, that's how you are. Uh, but the research since then has shown that that's not so actually. It's so much more nuanced and actually I find interesting and hopeful. It's really more in a spectrum and we can have different attachment styles with different people. There's a new quiz in secure about your attachment style and even also on my website. And I put a whole dropdown menu of you can figure out your, and you get a map with the different people in your life. And your attachment style with them, like you can even have it with your partner, even a coworker, your boss,

• 39:59Speaker 00

  your siblings, your children, and then you really get a, get a clue and you see how it really can change between different people. I even put your pet there. I heard a little bark there, so I have a dog too. And you can have different attachment styles or different, even with your pets.

• 40:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  So funny. I mean, dogs are funny. They're so obvious. I feel like avoidant dogs versus anxious, needy, cuddly.

• 40:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Don't you mean how you attach to your dog, not how dogs?

• 40:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm talking about the dog. I always want to be on the dog.

• 40:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, you always want to be on the dog.

• 40:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm saying the dog. I feel like it's so obvious if they're avoidant or anxious.

• 40:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, the dog is.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Completely. Yes.

• 40:35Rayna Greenberg?

  I think about like my romantic life. I think about my childhood and I was really conditioned that like love was given sort of by one parent intermittently. And I had to work really hard for it. I didn't know when I was going to get like acceptance and kindness and things like that. But as an adult, it's manifested. Like there's some people I've been with that would describe me as pretty avoidant. And there's other people I've dated that would be like, she's extremely anxious to the point that it's like annoying. And other people I've had really secure, wonderful relationships with. So for me, it is kind of partner dependent and with friends as well.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, people can bring out different things in you. That's why I really like actually the like secure. And also in the masterclass, I talk about secure priming therapy and that's kind of like what happened. In the past fifteen years, and that's why I haven't really talked so much on podcasts and stuff, because I was really busy trying to figure it out in how to help people become more secure. Because life is so much easier when you're more secure. You're just like, there's less relationship strife. And so like, what we do is when you do that, I call it a attachment topography. You look at your life as a whole, you get a map of who are the people in your life. And you see who brings out your secure potential. And the idea is that we all have a secure potential within us.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  And people, pets, different interactions in our life can bring it out. And in secure primal therapy, we learn to give primacy to those people. Because they will help even the more secure interactions you have. Even the small ones really will actually change your brain towards greater secure attachment.

• 42:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I really want to get into secure, but I do want to ask you a question before we kind of move on to your new work, which is in the last fifteen years, I'm just curious what you think. Do you think we've become more anxious in dating? Because there's such a prevalence of breadcrumbing and ghosting and bad behavior that's being talked about. And the TikTok-ification of bad behavior and discussing, you should do this. I mean, how do you feel that this has like affected society in dating?

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Some of it is also a matter of luck. Like, oh, actually, I can tell you, I'm gonna tell you the story, her story, and I think she wouldn't mind. Like, my niece, she never, like, until her really early twenties, I think maybe she was nineteen or twenty. She never dated ever, and she came to visit me in New York with her friend. And she was like, oh, let's like have fun. And she never even had a dating profile. And I think they started Tinder, like each for each other. Each was doing the other's profile. And then there's this guy that she liked for her, and he liked her. And she's like, oh, look at this guy. And he's like, oh, he's kind of cute, let me check him out. And fast forward, she met, she went, she met him. They really hit it off.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  And now I think they've been married for like, how long have they been married? Like six, seven years?

• 43:22Rayna Greenberg?

  I hate these stories. I hate her first boyfriend, first Tinder swipe.

• 43:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  We hear it a lot, though.

• 43:29Rayna Greenberg?

  It does happen. We have a friend that's married to somebody that met one on one date from a dating app and she's married to him now.

• 43:35Speaker 00

  You see, I mean, it does happen. So some people are lucky. And then sometimes it takes more effort and it can be really, really painful. And that's the sort of love bombing and all of these terms, I think. It just really tells you how painful it can be that sometimes people can go all in and all of a sudden they get cold feet or they don't, they change their mind or something happens. And I think it's just part of the process, whether social media and dating apps have exacerbated it, maybe, I mean, it could be. But I think hopefully we can talk about a few tools that people can use to try to circumvent that and to really cut to the chase and know what to look for.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  How to navigate this whole dating terrain from a more secure stance.

• 44:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's do it.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 44:23Rayna Greenberg?

  So let's talk about, let's talk about secure and why this now? Why this book now? The focus of the book?

• 44:30Speaker 00

  So it took me many, many years to really come up with a framework of how people can become more secure because when attached came out, it was basically, remember, it was in academic lingual. It wasn't even part of any clinical thing that I've learned in my psychiatry residency. There was no treatment to help people become more secure. And but then people started coming to me to therapy and like, okay, we want to become more secure, help us become. And I didn't have an immediate answer to that. But then I'm also a brain, I'm also a neuroscientist. I do like really molecular experiments in the lab, learning brain science. And I found myself in treatment really thinking more and more about how our social brain functions

• 45:12Speaker 00

  and what it needs and what it actually hates and integrating that into the treatment to help people become more secure. So one of the things the brain really hates like a lot is being excluded and being ignored. It's built into us in a very, like, very primitive way because I think one of the things to understand is that attachment is really about safety. It's how we feel safe in the world. When we're ignored, our emotional brain doesn't respond to the here and now that, oh, look, I don't know. You're sitting in a, I'm like in a studio in your home and you're safe. There's no predators around, but that's not, wasn't the case when our emotional brain was formed. And the emotional brain was formed, like being ignored meant life threatening.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  It was a life threatening condition because you get picked off and turn into prey. And so our brain really hates that and they have really all these research. And I call it insecure, the cyberball effect. It's based on this experiment when you play a game of catch with two other people. And all of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction. And like areas of like pain and distress light up in the brain. And we can't really mitigate it, even if I give you money. I, I, I tell you, these other two people are like horrible people. It doesn't matter. Our brain doesn't care who the other person is, doesn't care if you give them money. It's still like really will react with huge distress. So then if you understand that and you want to keep the social brain happy, how do you do it?

• 46:39Speaker 00

  That's where I came up with these five pillars for a secure life. It's like this weird acronym that I called CARP. It's not the fish. It's a, it stands for consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable. So you want to learn to be consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable. And you want to also teach others and arrange in your life that others in your life, give primacy to others that are also consistent, available and responsible. And it calls a lot of people to order and you can do it in different ways. It's not like, oh, it means that you have to always answer within a matter of a second someone's text.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  But you need to do it in a way that actually the other person will experience you as reliable and predictable.

• 47:27Rayna Greenberg?

  So you feel like when you talk about this like secure attachment, you talk about working on yourself first, not working on like getting your partner to be better.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  Don't get me wrong. I'm talking about the whole thing. I'm talking about yourself and I'm talking about also what your expectations of others should be. And how to also really look at that map that you create when you. Create that attachment and you look who are the people in your life and who the people that are secure are people who are usually carp. They always show up to us, they're solid. And that's why oftentimes we give them the least attention in our life because they're boring. They're very solid. They're just always there. You're not going to call your friend and say, oh, my God, this person did this and that to me, you know, because they never do any of those things to you.

• 48:12Rayna Greenberg?

  They make bad reality TV stars.

• 48:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I want to talk about that boring because you can reduce this down to being insecure is boring. So where do you stand on that?

• 48:21Speaker 00

  But that's a huge part of secure primal therapy. And that's actually a process that I went through on myself in my whole journey. In the process of writing attached and then even more so secure, I've fallen in love with the secures of this world and people who I always I used to disregard and not even appreciate. I see them from a completely different perspective because once you understand what it does to your brain and how not just your brain and your body too, being more secure, we now know affects much more than just how happy you're going to be in your romantic relationships. It even affects how we shop. Like people who are secure don't care as much about brand names and stuff. It affects when we look for a job. It affects our health. They had this

• 49:06Speaker 00

  one study that showed that people with fibromyalgia, when they were secure, they actually they got along better with their care health provider, but also they had they reported less pain and they were able to manage their illness better over time. So the benefits of being secure really goes way beyond just like how happy we're going to be in our romantic relationships. And so I've come to really appreciate the important role that these people play in my life. And I also I've come to really see the insecure interactions in a much different light. I see it more as a preoccupation rather than something that I need to fix this. And the good moments are not that good to me anymore because I understand that it comes with a price.

• 49:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, I have a couple of questions. One, do you have tips and tricks? And of course, we know the book, but we, for people who have read the book or plan on it, to become more secure in all of these things. And my other question is, I'm stuck on the predictable a little bit because I feel like we have a negative connotation with predictable. I can lean into all of the others and I'm married to like the most secure man alive, that consistency, availability, responsiveness, reliability, and then predictable, because I think typically romantically, you're like, I like a little surprise and thrill. And I think predictability, I was surprised that that's on the list.

• 50:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but when I think about you, I think about like, if I need something, if something really is bad in my life.

• 50:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's reliable.

• 50:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but I can predict what you will do. You will drop everything, you will show up.

• 50:37Speaker 00

  That's so, I'm so glad you brought this up because actually I have a section in the chapter, I think it's chapter three, no, it's chapter two, where I actually say a word about predictable, because I know that.

• 50:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  I want you to explain it, yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  So what I mean predictable, I mean it from an attachment perspective. And from an attachment perspective, what predictable means is that there's no like ghosting surprises, that you don't just drop on the face of the earth all of a sudden. It doesn't mean that they can throw you a surprise birthday party. I don't know, you see on TikTok when they take the, I don't know if I would like that, but maybe, like when, you know, you go on the plane, you don't know your destination, your vacation destination.

• 51:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I wonder if it's like, you know, you know, some people, you just, you don't know what you're going to get when you walk into a room with them.

• 51:24Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 51:25Rayna Greenberg?

  And like, when you have an experience, a social experience or romantic experience, like, I don't know what I'm going to get day to day. And it's worse than being like unreliable to me, because it's like, sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. I want somebody whose behavior I can predict.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  The way that I see it is reliable, they're there, you know that they're going to be there for you, but predictable, you know that they're always going to be there for you, if they can't, if they, unless they're like, something horrible has happened and they can't show up for you.

• 51:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just wanted to dive into it a little bit because I actually don't think unpredictable is positive. I wouldn't describe my best friends or my husband that way either. It's just kind of like, I wanted to just make the note that like someone

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, no, you're completely right.

• 52:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  predictable in a, in a good way and they still

• 52:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I want predictable.

• 52:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  like thrill you and surprise you and you know.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  No, no, in like in that whole context of the car, because that can also, I think I even wrote in the book that I have a friend who predictably never picks up the check, like where

• 52:18Rayna Greenberg?

  But you know that going into a meal.

• 52:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  So you pick a cheap place for dinner with that person. I like what you said, like always. It's like, yes, they'll do this, but always they'll do this and that. It doesn't sound boring to me at all. I like that.

• 52:31Speaker 00

  That gives our social brain such reassurance because remember, again, it's about safety and we drive, we derive our safety from knowing that the people around us are going to be there for us. Because people think, oh, if I have a lot of money in the bank, if I have an expensive car, like a condo, that's going to make me feel safe and secure. But these things don't make us feel safe at all because these things didn't even exist when our emotional brain formed.

• 52:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  So it just doesn't work that way. It's really through our connections with others. And surprisingly, it's through all these little things. It's not that people think, oh, the big things that would, would really matter. But actually, our brain attachment is like a surveillance. It doesn't really look for the big things. It actually surveys all the time for the availability of the other person. It's almost like there's a thread between you and the person that you're attached to and you can sort of tug it and you know where they are on the other side. But all of a sudden, if it's, so it's been snapped and you don't feel the other person on the other side, you feel very unsettled. That's actually like a line from Margot's Got Money Problem.

• 53:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  She actually, she actually describes that at a certain point, the other, the guy, I don't want to spoil too much, but the guy doesn't respond to her anymore. And she felt, she describes, she says, it's almost like there's a thread between us and it's been snapped away and it's this horrifying sensation. She, it's such a good description of, of an activated attachment.

• 53:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, just going to take a quick break. I am telling you guys about FP Movement. Oh my, the best stuff for summer. Oh my gosh, the sets, of course. But I really want to talk about the shorts and some of the tanks today. Shorts can be tough. You know, like I think sometimes they're not flattering and you want to wear shorts as the weather gets warmer. And so we really love everything that they do. This is Free People's activewear brand and we're just obsessed with everything. I mean, they have everything you need to work out, of course, or just be active, go on a hike, or again, just look cute lounging around. The Never Better Bike Short is the best bike short I've ever worn. I've tried so many different brands throughout the years. I love that so much. And they have these shorts that have kind of like the skirt look to them, like the

• 54:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Carpe Diem short, or the Wild Bloom short is great, too. I got the varsity blue short. I love this. It's kind of like a vintage-y vibe and I love the tees and the tanks, too. The hot shot crop tee is incredible. It just looks really sexy, but you're also looking like you're active. The camis are great. I love the go-to bra. Just everything that they have. And I got this Icon tee that's like a long tee shirt. I think that looks so good with the Never Better Bike Shorts. So those are just a few things I have on the way. And again, like they just have really soft fabrics and everything is really comfortable and great colors, so many different color options. And we just love everything that they do. Great stuff to travel in. I mean, that hot shot crossover set is one of my favorite things to travel, fly in, in the warmer months.

• 55:23Rayna Greenberg?

  It's the thing I get the most compliments about. I get stopped on the street.

• 55:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  So try all that out. Check them out for their shorts and tanks and tees and all the things that you guys need for summer. Visit fpmovement.com/gge to shop their full line of activewear and workout gear. That is fpmovement.com/gge for the full line.

• 55:42Rayna Greenberg?

  And as summer is coming up, and if you guys are like, I want to take a trip, but I feel really overwhelmed, kind of like organizing my finances and knowing what you can afford, Rocket Money is the best tool that you guys can get for yourselves. So Rocket Money is a personal finance app. It's going to help you manage your subscriptions, track your bills, everything that you're spending, all in one place. I love the interface, super easy to use. So first of all, it'll track all your subscriptions and it'll help you cancel unwanted ones. So when you download the app, it's really simple to see every single thing that you are paying for and it will literally surprise you how much money you are spending in subscriptions. And they have saved users over $880 million in canceled subscriptions. There's automatic transaction categorizations across Accounts. So you can have customizable categories and tags that will kind of reveal all of your

• 56:24Rayna Greenberg?

  spending and you can set budgets and goals. So like this is really like a one stop tool to understand your finances, help manage your budgets and everything going on this summer. If you want to get yourself a new wardrobe, see what you can afford. And the app consolidates checking, savings, loan and investments into a single dashboard. And you can automate your savings to grow towards goals, all kinds of things. It's a great app. So Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bills. So you can grow your savings. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at rocketmoney.com slash GGE. That's rocketmoney.com slash GGE. Rocketmoney.com slash GGE. Well, we are going to get back to like what makes an avoidant person become more secure and an anxious person become more secure. But can we talk about these? You call them

• 57:08Rayna Greenberg?

  seemingly insignificant minor interactions.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  So these are the most important things. It's not about like, so here's the, here's a common scenario that happens when people don't know about CARP, CMEs.

• 57:20Rayna Greenberg?

  You said CME and it's seemingly insignificant minor interaction. That's the acronym.

• 57:24Speaker 00

  Right. There's only two acronyms in the book. And that's it.

• 57:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, the CARP and the CME.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  Knowing about CARP, CMEs really changes the whole picture. Like a couple who've been sort of like been dating for just like newly dating, or even like dating long term, they go, they, they spend the whole weekend together. They have an amazing time. They go on expensive, they go to a show, they have dinner, like the next day they go shopping together, he even buys her like a, like an expensive purse or a bag. And then because he's more avoidant, come Monday, he forgets to text her in the morning. He usually always texts her every morning. She's like, oh my God, being more anxious. This is it. I know what it's like. We were too close. And now they're pulling away. It's the beginning of the end. Because remember I told

• 58:11Speaker 00

  you anxious are very sensitive to potential danger in a relationship. And they really feel that relationships can be very fragile. So they're like, oh, I don't know, what should I do? Like, no, if I'll text now, let's be I'm more, more needy, then I'll just like, I'm not, I'm gonna wait for him. They're like sitting all day, like very anxious. Can't even think about their work. Like come evening, let's say they like he calls her or he texts her. She either doesn't respond because she's upset. Or when she answered the phone, she's very cold. And he's like, hey, what's happening like that? Like, oh, like, no, you didn't text me in the morning. So him being avoidant, he thinks this is crazy. I mean, we were just spent this whole weekend together. We were so close.

• 58:53Speaker 00

  How much more that she needs, there's no end to how much this person needs. She's so needy. I don't know if that's gonna work. All the while, not understanding the importance of like for attachment system of this sort of forming this baseline. You don't get credit forward of closeness, which avoidance thinks that you do. It doesn't work that way because it's a it's a waiter system. So it's like if you tripped a switch, you tripped a switch. It's an on and an off, and then that's gonna be hard. So if you know that and you can teach avoidance to be, okay, if you have a certain baseline and you text every morning. Sometimes even especially after you had a very close weekend, you need to text that morning.

• 59:36Speaker 00

  And then if you don't, you're gonna get a backlash and that's exactly what you don't want. But they kind of like reaffirm each other's beliefs in the most ridiculous way. Where it all could have been circumvented very easily. If they were just like, let's say he forgot and she was like, oh, you know, you didn't text me. And he was like, you know, I'm really no, I wasn't carp, I'm sorry. Even I have it with my friend. I have this friend, we've been friends for more than twenty years. And at times it wasn't an easy friendship, even like for about a year and a half, we didn't speak. And I think a few weeks ago, he called me once and I forgot to return the call. And then he texts me and I I was so busy with the launch of the book and everything and I didn't really get back to him.

• 1:00:19Speaker 00

  But then we talked again and he said, well, you've been off your carp game. And I knew exactly what he was talking about. And I said, yes, you're right, I'm so sorry. There's been been so much going on, but you'll see, I'm gonna make it up. I'm gonna make it up to you now by being extra available. And in the past, I would have become defensive. You probably would have sulked and not said anything or would have said you've hurt my feelings. But here we had a very specific language. He didn't say you hurt my feelings. It's like you weren't carp and I felt it. And we didn't even have to say anything. I know what he does, how he controlled the attachment system. And I immediately apologized and corrected my ways. It saved us so much energy and so much time.

• 1:01:02Rayna Greenberg?

  It's funny that that story you told about the the couple, I like feel that in my soul. I feel like everybody's had that experience where like the avoidant person's like, we had a great time. I don't, I don't know what the problem is here. And the anxious person has told themself a story the entire day and worked themself up into this like tizzy. And by the time it comes out, the other person's like, yikes. I can't be with you.

• 1:01:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:25Rayna Greenberg?

  And both of those people have a little work to do.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  So it's like if both understand the logic of, there's a certain logic of attachment that runs through all of our relationships. And it's a very simple logic, but a lot of it is pre-language because attachment forms before we can even speak. And that's why I really wanted to give the specific tools that people understand more specifically what is happening to our emotional brain. Because people go, you hurt my feelings. And they just start going, they don't know to describe more exactly what's going on and what they need. But once you learn that, you can really circumvent there's so much relationship strife by really addressing specifically what the social brain needs.

• 1:02:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  In that example, because I really want to just like wrap that up because I think that's really typical for a lot of people. You have an avoidant and anxious. And if one of those people just would have been secure, this interaction probably wouldn't have happened. They wouldn't have been clocked in that way. So when you have an anxious and an avoidant, is there a hope for them? Because how can a person just say, I need you to be carp? And then the avoidant's like, what do you mean?

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  I'm glad that you pointed it out because you're even highlighting it's, I think it's such a good question. Because what can people do? Both are at fault, right? Like the fact that he didn't text that morning, it's because he needed a little bit more. It was a lot for him that weekend.

• 1:02:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  And he needed a little like, so there's sometimes it's not even, they're not even completely. They're not even aware that they're doing it. And I think I gave an example in the book. It's like, I go back and I start working and I'm busy in what I'm doing. And then all of a sudden, people are hitting up my phone. Or if I reach out to someone, they're like upset with me that I didn't respond before, that I dropped the ball on them. It's not just with romantic partners. It happens to them also with friends. In the class on Masterclass and also in Secure, I talk about the three pitfalls of people with avoidant attachment style that they're often falling to. And that's one of the pitfalls that I just described. It's not learning, not respecting. I give it a very sort of, because I'm a science geek.

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  So I give it a geeky name. Not learning to respect the attachment homeostasis. But what homeostasis is, is basically baseline. So you teach avoidance that there is an attachment baseline and that if you're going to disrupt that baseline, you're going to pay. Because what's going to happen is you're going to activate the other person and now they're going to cling to you even more. And that's exactly the opposite of what you want. So you learn how to give the other person what they need, more like the attachment that forms between you, what they need. So they'll leave you alone. So it's not like, oh, you have to be more. I sell it to avoidant in secure therapy. It's like, this is for you. This is not for you to be so nice to the other person. This is a way for you to be nice to you.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  Because if you do this little semi thing, this seemingly insignificant minor interaction of a tiny little text, you bought yourself your whole day that they're not going to be thinking about you at all.

• 1:04:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Is it sort of like with avoidant people? Do you have to train them to explain to other people in their lives? Like, I just need a little more distance sometimes?

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 1:04:33Rayna Greenberg?

  I haven't had to do that with romantic partners necessarily, but with friends of mine, especially when she and I get really busy with work. I am not that responsive via text. And I think it can really tug on people's anxious attachment. My friends being like, are you mad at me? I'm checking in with you. I'm saying, how was your show?

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  You triggered their attachment style. Yes.

• 1:04:50Rayna Greenberg?

  And I've had to, over the years, send quite a few text messages to just say like, I'm not, I promise I'm not mad at you. This is a me thing. So do you teach people to do that?

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  Of course, that's exactly what you teach people to actually, so you can even become preemptively more, it's like, hey, the sooner you reply, the better, right? Hey, I'm so busy. You can even prepare for avoidance, you can prepare like a little like automatic text that you can send to people, that you don't have to start going into all the texting. I'm so busy this next two weeks, there's so much going on. Miss you, reach out as soon as it's over. And if I don't reach out, reach out again. I'm so happy to hear from you. Something like that, that's it, done.

• 1:05:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I think when you have a history with people, they understand. I mean, consistency and reliability, it's like my friends that have been friends with me for years and the same with Reina, know that like there's times in my life when I'm less responsive and they give me that grace because they know that it will ebb and flow because of our life. I mean, I think you can't be the exact same consistency, reliability, responsiveness to every single person in your life all the time. And people that have the history, they understand that and they give you that grace.

• 1:06:00Speaker 00

  Exactly. So you can build up your CARP credit. That you can build up because then people do learn.

• 1:06:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly, CARP credit.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  People do learn that you actually mean well and that you want to be there. It's more about this idea of like really feeling that that thing is not, that he's been snapped away and all of a sudden they're like, yes. So you want to keep that thread, that feeling that you're there for them.

• 1:06:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Does somebody who is avoidant, do they want to do these things? Like, I mean, sometimes I'm just like, I don't really want to be bothered. I, it's against my will to send these text messages.

• 1:06:32Speaker 00

  I love this. No, I know. No, no, that's classic avoidance. I love that you say that because it's such classic avoidant response.

• 1:06:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I, I'm telling you, I appear very differently to different people.

• 1:06:44Speaker 00

  No, no, and it's true. And you can be more avoidant with your friends. And it's actually, I've heard that across like a lot with friends, you can be more, and it's classic avoidant with friends. And like, so that's part of what I'm trying to explain to avoidant. It's like by not doing that, you actually end up having to send like longer texts, spend more time. It's for you more than for them even, because it will save you so much time, it will give you the Town that you need by sending something very short. But there's sometimes it's very hard to avoidance to come into terms with it. It's like, no, I don't want to do that like they need. So that's the other part of it's like they need to take care of themselves. I don't expect them to do that for me.

• 1:07:25Speaker 00

  And that's kind of like the other pitfall that I talk about in secure and in the class on masterclass is more. How you don't understand that avoidance are about twenty, twenty five percent of the population. And oftentimes that's part of their superpowers. They don't need reassurance in many ways. They're very self sufficient, but they don't understand that other people are not like that. That other people really do need that. And when you form a more secure relationship with them, it's like that's how you build your carp credit. They don't really think about you much. Secure relationships really fade into the background. Because if we understand there's a, there's a connection between our attachment and our exploratory drive. And you can see it easily in kids.

• 1:08:10Speaker 00

  If they play with toys like and then the mom is there every once in a while. They're like, oh, my God, all these amazing toys. I don't remember if you remember that I used to love like going to toy like toy stores and looking at all these different things. You get so excited.

• 1:08:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Loved it.

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, right. And then every once in a while you like to see the mom is there and that's it. But you don't really care, but have the mom disappear all the sudden of the store. And you start crying and where's mom? And then I'll try to give you a toy, you'll throw it in my face, you couldn't care less. So it's easy to see how like being having that availability of the other person. Keeps you engaged in the world and you don't really think about them. It's easier to see it in kids, but it's the same in adults. And that friend that texts you and all of a sudden you disappeared. It's like, oh, my God, she's not there. She's mad at me, this and that. It's like that distress that gets instigated. But if they looked and they checked and they saw that you're there and it's like, okay, they're not going to think about you. They're going to continue on.

• 1:09:06Speaker 00

  We don't play with toys, but we create podcasts. We write books with all these different things in our life.

• 1:09:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Can you tell us the other percentages? Because people love numbers and percentages. You said 20% of the population is avoidant. Is there percentages that are, are they rough?

• 1:09:20Speaker 00

  So this was like the first study. They found about 25% avoidant, 20% anxious, 54% secure, and a very small number fearful avoidant. But I think people now say that there's more insecurity now. But it's very hard to measure that.

• 1:09:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, people are self, they're self-reporting.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's all self-report. And also, there's more of a spectrum. And like you said yourself, we can be different with different people and different pets. So it's kind of like really changes. But definitely, there is this idea that we can all become more secure and that we can really change and become more secure. And especially, I think even more so, definitely with the help of secure people. But also, we can learn these little tricks, these little tools, to really get us to a more secure place, to act in a more secure way.

• 1:10:15Rayna Greenberg?

  So on the other side of the coin, somebody who's really anxious, how do you talk to them about not needing that text in the morning? And then telling yourself all these stories throughout the day about why I'm not getting it? Or walking away from somebody that treats you like that?

• 1:10:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, and like find a secure person. It seems like they bridge the gap. Like I can't, it's to me, the anxious and the avoidant are so far from each other in the spectrum. Like, it seems like an anxious person is fixed. I've done nothing wrong with them. By a secure person and the same with an avoidant. Like, it's like the secure partners out there in the world, the 50% are the ones that are bridging the gap with the anxious and the avoidant partners.

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  First of all, there's something that I call the CARP intervention. And so when you see that someone is not being CARP and they like trigger the worst in you, then you do the CARP intervention. You don't tell them, "Are you okay? Are you mad at me?" You text and you say, "Hey." To me, it's really important that people are consistent, available, and responsive in my life. And I try to be that way, but it really affects me badly if people aren't. And so like, just like letting you know that. You're sort of like, so you do that CARP intervention. And remember that I told you that we all have this secure, like a secure kernel within us. So it's almost like you summon something. You give the option of someone to show up to you in a different way. And then you wait and see.

• 1:11:38Speaker 00

  And if they were able to be carp with you, wow, that's great. You've, I call it like a secure village. You've like, you've recruited another person to your secure village. And if they're not, then for anxious specifically, I have this tool that's called wall tennis with love.

• 1:11:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Let's hear about it.

• 1:11:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, talk to us about it.

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  Wall tennis with love is, I don't know if you've ever played tennis against the wall, but whatever you dish to the wall, the wall returns in about the same velocity in the same way. It doesn't initiate. So in wall tennis with love, you're the anxious person, the other person is not carp. Then you become the wall. You don't initiate, but whenever they reach out to you, you respond to them with love. Because you want to, you don't want, you're not like engaging in protest behavior. You're not ignoring them. You know, all the stuff that you do when, when like, yeah, when you're trying, when you're like upset with someone. You don't do that. You engage with them with love. So for example, I have a friend that I'm doing wall tennis with love with. And it's a different friend. And also with them, it wasn't such an easy relationship.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  And I can show you on my phone, like he would text me, hi. So I'm the wall. I text immediately, hi back. In fact, I mean, as soon as I can. A week goes by. I don't hear anything. I don't say anything. Then I get another hi after a week. I text hi again. Then two days go by. Then he calls me. So I answer the phone and we talk and we have a really nice conversation. And it's nice, actually. Whereas before, we, we didn't get along and it was like, hi. And it's like, then I would send you there, question mark. And he would ignore me for a week. And by the time he was like, and so I don't respond at all. I'm the wall. I can't. In the past, I used to try to call him if something was going on and I didn't feel well.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  I would call and I would get rebuffed and I would get upset and it would be so many ups and downs. I don't, I don't do that. Like I have. I created this map for myself and I know who the secure people in my love are. And I call them. I don't call this person. And I talk to them. But actually, it really preserved the relationship with him because I don't have expectations from him for closeness or availability or carp that that he can't meet. And actually, you know, it's become a really, really good relationship. I feel that we've become closer in some ways, even though I will not initiate.

• 1:14:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Because you've kind of let go of your expectations of it.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I don't really, I'm not going to do something that then will backfire and then will upset me.

• 1:14:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  For friendships that you want to preserve, clearly that's the answer. But for a romantic relationship, I mean, do you feel like the advice is a little different? Because then you're just taking what someone's willing to give you at the expense of yourself and your own well-being at a certain point. Like, you hope your security is going to rub off, but it may or may not.

• 1:14:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, like the anxious person, you gave great advice for how the anxious person should deal with somebody they're dating, but like, how do you say to yourself, it's time to

• 1:14:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's too much.

• 1:14:34Rayna Greenberg?

  It's time to walk away here.

• 1:14:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 1:14:36Speaker 00

  Here's the thing. I think, let's say, someone that you're with, like you're in a relationship with, and they're more avoidant and they can't really give you everything that you need. I actually have an example of this woman who is very, like, she really needs a lot of input about like what she wears and what she buys. And she used to drive her husband and then also her kids crazy. She was like, should I wear this? Should I wear that? Or should I buy this? Should I buy that? And like, oh, he's so, why can't you make your own decisions? And then she found these other two women who also really love to be consultant, be consultant.

• 1:15:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Circle the drain. Yeah, with all those questions, yeah.

• 1:15:18Speaker 00

  And now they're constantly on FaceTime with each other, like shopping, sending pictures.

• 1:15:23Rayna Greenberg?

  So outsource it to other people.

• 1:15:26Speaker 00

  Completely, and what seemed to be like she's so needy now actually turned out to be that she's super collaborative and really there and able to kind of like really give advice and get advice from like these two other women in her life and they're constantly like together go back and forth. And that's another thing that I talk about in Insecure and like about your hidden sparks of talent and how like something that you can actually a lot of people, people with anxious attachment like experiences and impediment is actually like a hidden spark of talent that if given the right environment will have a chance to shine. So we have this idea that we have to get everything from our romantic partner,

• 1:16:09Speaker 00

  but we're very savvy social species and we can actually get different things from different people. And if we can actually learn to develop it more. She used to be so upset about her, the way that her husband and her kids would sort of react to her. And if I tell her like, what? Like she wouldn't even remember that that was ever even an issue, I think, because it's like, oh.

• 1:16:29Rayna Greenberg?

  It's really interesting. It's just sort of just like outsource what you need to other people and have your needs met and maybe you just won't feel it. I mean, the answer is clearly not leave your husband and your children unless you do whatever you want. But, you know, I think that you're saying she found a community of people that kind of validated who she was and made her feel more secure. And so she showed up more secure in these other relationships.

• 1:16:50Speaker 00

  But and this idea of outsourcing itself is an idea that I would sort of argue it's actually more in line with how we as a human species are that we have a need for greater connected connection to others. And that's part of those all these connected semi that those semi's, I really extended it beyond my immediate relationships. I was to be the first person who would ever go into an Uber is like, don't talk to me, like looking into my phone. Just like maybe saying, hi, hi. So I'll get my five stars, but like nothing beyond that, right? Try to sort of be as polite as possible. So I don't get a bad review. But since I've written this book, like Attached, and I also I've rediscovered

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  how this connectedness and how actually giving attention, there's this philosopher that I quote in Insecure, Simone, Simone Weil, this French philosopher, it's like fascinating woman. And she said that attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity.

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  And I never really thought about giving someone attention as a form of generosity. But now that I see it that way, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna talk to the Uber driver. And amazing things have happened since I started doing that. I talked to this one guy in London, an Uber driver, about his kid. He used to tell me how he used to get into fights all the time. He was really hot headed and now he had a kid who then turned out to have autism. And now he now started this whole network for parents with kids with autism. And I actually, because I'm a child psychiatrist, I gave him like a few numbers of people can reach out to at Columbia. And so I formed all these different connections with different people around the world.

• 1:18:34Speaker 00

  And the science, you'll read and you'll see, it's incredible. We always think about using all these like different creams, like for our faces to look healthier and to. But actually, being connected slows down our biological aging. It's kind of like incredible, much more so than all of these supplements and all those peptides. The science doesn't back any of those up. All the stuff that you see that's supposed to help you on TikTok, most of it is just bogus. But the science of connectedness, there's so many really well made studies that show us how it actually increases longevity, increases our health and slows down biological aging on a cellular level.

• 1:19:16Rayna Greenberg?

  And happier societies. I mean, it just, it kind of sounds like, to sum it up, I mean, you tell me I'm wrong, but somebody who's anxious really needs to build out a secure community of friends almost. And then you will be less susceptible to some real avoidant bullshit in your romantic life. And I think people that are extremely avoidant in their romantic life have a tough time because when somebody starts being avoidant, it tugs every single part of you into them. And maybe if you build a life out around you that kind of deescalates that, you'll just be like, I don't, I don't have time for this bullshit.

• 1:19:47Speaker 00

  But at the same time, I have to say, when you're dating, it's really like leading without carp thing. This woman who, like she hooked up with this guy on Tinder. It was just a hookup. They spent the night together and they didn't never thought anything would come out of it, but they had an amazing time together and they felt they really connected. So then a week later, they hooked up again and in between the two hookups, like she was trying to text him, but he wasn't very responsive. But she really didn't make much of it because she was like, whatever. It's just like, like just fun. But then after the second night in the morning, she felt that there was something even more. So she said, she told him, look, for me, it's very important that people in my life will be consistent,

• 1:20:28Speaker 00

  available and responsive. And I saw that with those texts, like it didn't really, I saw that you're not like, he wasn't exactly like that. So I feel that there's something there. And if it's, but if it's gonna work, you need to be, you need to be more carp. Because otherwise, I know myself, and if I don't hear back from you, I'm just gonna be hitting up your phone. And I don't like that. I don't like to be that way. I don't like that about myself. So it's not gonna work. And he said, you know, like all of my friends, like say that I never responded. I'm really not good at that, but I'm gonna try.

• 1:21:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:21:00Speaker 00

  And now, several years later, and I think like one child, like two kids, yeah, like they've been married. And when you talk to him and he really, and when he doesn't call her, she will hit up his phone. Like she would call him like 10 times in a row. And then he was like, hey babe, sorry. I couldn't talk. And like, he was just like, that's it. It wouldn't be like a big upset. And when you talk to him, he will say, you know, when she put it that way, it didn't feel like such a huge ask. I could understand it. And he didn't feel like, oh, because I was a band-aid as a child or all of that. No, it was like, this is how I am and that's what I need. So she was able to summon that secure thing from him and, and he was able to show up in a more secure way.

• 1:21:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, these are good qualities to have. All you're doing is asking someone, like I'd really love consistency. Who do, I mean, I would hate if someone described me as inconsistent, unreliable, like unpredictable, all those things. It's like, you're just kind of saying like, I want a partner that has these really positive attributes. Are you willing to step up to the plate?

• 1:21:57Speaker 00

  But also remember, it's not that hard to be. And that's the thing for avoidance, understand.

• 1:22:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:22:03Rayna Greenberg?

  But for avoidance, it is. I think it's for somebody that feels like I have a hard time like clocking into intimacy.

• 1:22:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it's like, it feels like they're rejecting it because it's, they don't want to be pushed around or something. You know, like someone that has that ability to be secure shouldn't really be phased by this like, hey, do you mind just like texting me consistently, responding to me?

• 1:22:20Speaker 00

  But also that actually. Like the way that I presented to avoidance, it's actually if you, because they also want the connection.

• 1:22:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure.

• 1:22:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:29Speaker 00

  If you really want your distance, learn how to use the attachment logic to your benefit. Learn, and we do that all the time. It's much easier to see in kids. You're not going to wait to feed a child uh, until they're very, very hungry. You're not going to put them to sleep when they're super, super tired. Because you're gonna, you're gonna get the backlash of it. So.

• 1:22:49Rayna Greenberg?

  You anticipate their needs.

• 1:22:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so as an adult, if you learn the, to uh, work with the attachment neurocircuitry rather than sort of butt heads with it all the time, it's going to work so much to your advantage. And people are going to leave you alone. You're going to get the space that you need. All you need to do is do some preemptive action and understand the logic of how the attachment works, because you keep butting heads with it. And then you keep sort of like getting the, the short end of the stick.

• 1:23:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I, I like that you said avoiding people, they want attachment too, and they want to feel love and companionship. You know, they present as I don't want this and this is a, a pain to me, but they want it as well. And if you can give them some tools to not feel so irritated and put upon by somebody else.

• 1:23:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Um, so you have in the book that security is contagious and we touched on it a, a little bit. And like building this secure village and I think that's really important and I want to just hear you speak on it. Like again, why it's so important to, I, I, I use the word rub off. That's just kind of a, a lighter way to phrase it. And I, I think of a friend we have, I remember one time we were at dinner and she was like, you seem really secure. And she was like, I want to channel that more in parts of my life. And I, I feel like we have watched her become more secure, like over time. And I think we have seen her choose some different type of friendships than she may have in the, the past. And it has turned out to be contagious. And so I just wanted to hear you kind of speak on that.

• 1:24:19Speaker 00

  That's the way that you just described it. That's kind of like taking the whole idea behind secure priming therapy and some like putting it like in a nutshell. Basically what attachment styles are is a, it's a working model. It's a. Script that our brain has about what to expect from the world. But if we present the brain with like evidence to the contrary. No, relationships are not that fragile. No, people are not going to disappoint you all the time. No, people are not going to pull away from you all the time. People are actually going to show up for you. And when you want closeness, if you send them talking about a picture about a clothes, they'll like send you something right back. They tell you, yeah, it's good or no, wear the green dress and not the red dress. And they're going to be so all these little semis, the small interactions.

• 1:25:04Speaker 00

  Each one of them is an opportunity for your brain to change. I mean, you understand your science, it really changes on a molecular level to become more secure. So you kind of like, I become like this Pac-Man going and sort of collecting all those secure semis around in my life. Because I understand how like, how much it contributes to the well being of my brain. That feeling of being hyper connected to others. But each person has to do it on their own. We are different animals and you can see it in dogs. Like my dog is a little bit more avoidant. He likes, he, he's not going to be like when you see on TikTok, those dogs that are constantly like at your face, like on you all the time. No, he's going to be, he's now somewhere in a different room now.

• 1:25:48Speaker 00

  He's going to be at the edge of the bed.

• 1:25:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, he wants to be in the room with us. He wants the people around, but he will not ever lay on us. And it's, you know.

• 1:25:56Speaker 00

  Right, exactly.

• 1:25:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  The worst thing about him.

• 1:25:58Rayna Greenberg?

  He's Ashley. She wants to be invited, but don't touch her.

• 1:26:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  I want to be around people always, but don't be on me too much.

• 1:26:06Speaker 00

  Right, so we all bring our own biology to the mix and it's fun. There's nothing wrong with that. We just have to communicate to people that it's not about them. We have to learn to use the, the logic, the attachment logic that can help us ease into something that works better and doesn't cause the snipping of the cord, the like, the, the attachment cord. So when we learn to do that, again, with whatever our biology needs, then we get this really more, it's really what security is, is about stability and the stability of our nervous system.

• 1:26:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we have to, I guess, wrap up with you, but congratulations on the Masterclass and the new book.

• 1:26:44Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:26:45Rayna Greenberg?

  And it really is just fantastic. And we encourage people to get that, read that. Can you tell everybody where they can find you and your work?

• 1:26:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely. So I would say like to do the quiz and get your attachment style, the MAP topography. You can go to amirlevinmd.com. You can take the quiz there, my class on Masterclass on the Masterclass website. And I also have training for therapists and people who do coaching that I'm going to start in the fall. So you can go to my website and you can leave your email and then I'll, we'll send you more information when the time comes.

• 1:27:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, okay. Amazing. Do you feel like we covered it all? Any final parting thoughts? Or we just want to make sure. We could sit here and talk to you forever, but just want to make sure we've covered it all.

• 1:27:33Speaker 00

  One more thing. I mean, if you have a few minutes, I can tell you. You don't have to, but you can include it.

• 1:27:37Rayna Greenberg?

  We're here. We're on your schedule. You have the floor. I've been trying to get you on this show for years. You were really hard to find. And when we got the email that you wanted to come on the show, I was like, get up.

• 1:27:49Speaker 00

  So there's one thing in secure, and I think I also talk about it in the class, in the class on Masterclass. I talk about there's like these two rules of secure engagement. Like, once you get into an argument, how to deal with it from an attachment perspective. So maybe I thought it would be cool if I just mentioned that because I.

• 1:28:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Let's do it. Yeah.

• 1:28:08Speaker 00

  It's been super helpful in my life and the life of my patients and everybody that I know. So there's two rules. The one rule says that only one person is allowed to be upset at a time. And the attachment logic behind it is like, if you think about secure attachment, like secures are really good in helping other people calm down. That's really one of the biggest function of a secure bond is that like if something bad happens to me, if I turn to someone that I'm securely attached to. Sometimes a single word or a hug will make me feel better, like instantaneously. There's no Klonopin or Xanax in the world that gets even close to that effect because we're. Such highly social species.

• 1:28:50Speaker 00

  But like insecure attachment can also be one of the biggest instigator of emotional upset. So if we understand the role of a secure attachment, then we know that if one person is upset, then the secure bond means that the other person should really find a way, if they can, to help the other person calm down. So really function as that secure anchor to the world. But that's not always that easy to do because when we're attached to someone, it's like we become like one physiological unit and it reverberates. So when they're upset, it's very easy for us to get upset just by the nature of the bond. So then if both are upset, usually what happens now when like people like my,

• 1:29:32Speaker 00

  some of my patients will say like one would upset and the other would get upset. And they would say, wait, wait a second. Only one is allowed to be upset at the time and I was upset first, so it's my turn. And they start laughing. So but if that doesn't dissipate things, then there's the second rule, the follow up rule, the mea culpa rule. She's like, it's my fault and it's my fault. Now what happens if you're both upset, then now you both need to apologize to each other. You apologize for the fact that you weren't able to function, to fulfill your secure role in your relationship of helping reach stability, that emotional stability again. Oftentimes what people do is like they want to get, no, but I'm right and you're right. Attachment doesn't care about who's right and who's wrong.

• 1:30:16Speaker 00

  Because for attachment, it's not about all these arguments. And it doesn't mean, that's a lot of chatter that comes from the prefrontal cortex and use a lot of words. But attachment is pre-verbal. Attachment, the right thing from an attachment perspective is how do I feel connected to you again? And then you can argue about about who's right and who's wrong tomorrow. But usually people don't even care about that because it's not really about that. So once you learn how to apologize like that and really help calm the system down between the two of you, that really and not worry so much about who's right and how you have to explain yourself and all of that stuff. You really are more true to the attachment logic. Of what you need from each other in an argument.

• 1:31:01Rayna Greenberg?

  I think it's really great. I think a lot of couples just really need to like be cautious on how to communicate with each other. And I've certainly dated people that just grew up with a very different parental lifestyle than I did. And they have a different baseline and need something different.

• 1:31:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And friendships too. I mean, since you brought it up, the friend that I just mentioned, the one that was like, you're really secure. And I would like to be more like that. We had a conflict and listen, I do identify as secure, but I can be combative and I can get defensive. And I can feel that anger in my gut. Like I really am like quick, not as quick to anger as I used to be. But we were having this combative type argument over something so stupid. And she really was like, took it to a, I think we should take some space. We had some plans. I think we should cancel those. Like I tried to break up with me and some switch flipped in me and I was like, I have to in this moment deescalate this.

• 1:31:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Apologize. What are we doing here? We're friends. We're better than this. Like, I love you. This was so silly. Let's put this past us. And I was able to do it in a way that I have not always been able to do in the past in romantic relationships and even friendships. And it like saved our relationship. I could feel her about to end this friendship. And I was able to like stop and have a little self-talk of like, let me be the one to fix this in this moment. And we laughed about it even within hours and still.

• 1:32:25Speaker 00

  That's exactly what I was talking about. You see, it's like you apologize, not necessarily about the argument and all that. But you've really found a way to reconnect on the level that what that's what the attachment really system cares about. And she didn't really, she just didn't know what to do with her, like all those like really difficult feelings. And you were able to really calm everything down. That's exactly what I talk about. And so it's really nice when two get really upset. One, at least there needs to be one secure adult in the room. But it's even better both know that it's both of their roles.

• 1:32:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm not always the adult, I want to be clear, but yes, that's my one claim to fame.

• 1:33:04Speaker 00

  No, but you saw how effective it was.

• 1:33:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I had some conflict with her recently. It was beautiful. And I think she really learned from that situation.

• 1:33:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  But yeah, we just, I really liked that you framed it that way.

• 1:33:13Speaker 00

  But it's actually, it's something that we can practice. And that's how I actually also end the book and the class. I say, it's really a secure practice. None of us are going to be perfect in this, but knowing the tools and knowing, you know what? This is escalating. Like you got to it just like instinctively, like I need to do something here. I need to step in and I apologized and I sort of made things better. And then all of a blown behold, it's like, and you still remember it till, and like, obviously you told us the story because the effect was amazing.

• 1:33:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So I think that's like something always to, to keep in mind. And we get asked that a lot. Like I'm in conflict with a partner, with a friendship, with a parent. And so I, I love the message overall. These attachment styles are not fixed. It's a practice. None of us are just born with these tools. And, you know, the books are a great place to learn it.

• 1:33:59Speaker 00

  For sure. Yeah, that's good.

• 1:34:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, thank you for everything. This was really fantastic. And congrats on everything that you have had come out recently. I know our audience will just eat it up.

• 1:34:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I just, I was reading some reviews of the book and it's just, you know, it's been out a month about, and it's just started changing people's lives. And so thank you for putting this out there after Attached. And we just, we really appreciate it. And you guys check out the masterclass and we already kind of gave your, your plugs earlier and then we dove back in. But everybody knows, find you masterclass books, all the things. So we really appreciate your time.

• 1:34:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you. I had a lot of fun. It was fun talking to you guys.

• 1:34:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Great, you too. All right. Well, thank you guys for being here as always. GirlsGottaEat.com, Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess on Instagram and TikTok. Raina is Rayna Greenberg, RainaGreenberg.com for her fall tour tickets. Full video on Spotify and YouTube. We would love if you would leave a comment on Spotify, subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with really anyone. And we will see you Thursday.

• 1:34:59Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a good week, guys.

• 1:35:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bye.

• 1:35:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Bye.

• 1:35:26Speaker 03

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