Thelma Schoonmaker - Summer Staff Picks

Our summer tradition at Here’s the Thing continues, as staff members choose their favorite conversations from the archives for our Summer Staff Pick series. This week, we revisit Alec’s conversation with Thelma Schoonmaker, the legendary editor behind every Martin Scorsese film since Raging Bull. Known for her warm, unassuming presence, Schoonmaker has shaped some of cinema’s most intense and iconic moments—earning three Academy Awards and seven nominations along the way. She talks to Here’s the Thing host Alec Baldwin about Scorsese’s pet peeves, what it’s like to “create” violence, and the woman she credits with giving her the “greatest life in the world.” See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:36Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio. It's summer, and that means it's time for our tradition at Here's the Thing where the staff share their favorite episodes from our archives in our Summer Staff Picks series. Next up is producer Victoria DeMartin.

• 1:58Speaker 04

  Thanks, Alec. One of my most formative experiences as a filmmaker was editing my 16mm short film by hand on a vintage Steenbeck. When I think of the legacy of flatbed film editing, I immediately think of Thelma Schoonmaker. She is the woman behind the curtain for Martin Scorsese's films, responsible for editing all of his films since Raging Bull. Something I love about this conversation with Thelma is how much insight she gives into her editing process and her working relationship with Scorsese. The specificity to which Thelma can recall the exact camera work of certain shots and which dailies Marty liked and didn't like is incredible. Their working relationship is a perfect marriage, and Thelma has become indispensable to Scorsese since their first introduction, back when she volunteered to help out a young film

• 2:43Speaker 04

  student whose film negative had been cut wrong. This was a young Martin Scorsese. With her calm, thoughtful, and precise demeanor, it's clear to me just from listening to this wonderful conversation why Thelma Schoonmaker is a legendary film editor.

• 2:56Alec Baldwin?

  Behind every good filmmaker is a brilliant editor, and Martin Scorsese is no exception. His counterpart, Thelma Schoonmaker, has edited every film the cinematic giant has done since Raging Bull, earning her three Academy Awards and seven nominations. For the face and demeanor like your favorite grade school teacher, one has to wonder how Schoonmaker has made it through editing the epic violence of Scorsese's films. But however she does it, it's working. She and Scorsese's 40-plus years of collaborating is widely considered to be one of the most successful working marriages in movie history.

• 3:37Alec Baldwin?

  But talented as Schoonmaker is, editing films wasn't always the plan. Born to American parents in Algiers in 1940, Schoonmaker dreamed of becoming a diplomat and working overseas. But fate intervened, and today, fresh off editing Scorsese's newest film, Silence, she looks back on the moments that shaped her, both as a filmmaker and a person.

• 4:01Speaker 05

  Something like "Age of Innocence," we certainly had to slow down and figure out how to reach a pace that reflected 19th-century New York. With Kundun, which was one of my favorites, I had to really learn a great deal about Tibet itself. And also Marty wanted to know how to shoot the sand mandala, which the monks make for two weeks. This beautiful, beautiful thing they make with just funnels of different colored sand. And then after two weeks, they wash it all away in the river. It's unbelievable. And it's really hard work. So he wanted to open Kundun, which we did, with very tight shots of images of the mandala.

• 4:42Speaker 05

  And he wanted to know what were the important ones for him to shoot. So I had to learn about the sand mandala. This was before we started shooting. I'm usually not needed before shooting. And so I got to go down and watch the monks make this incredible sand mandala. That was a lot of fun. Learning about Tibet and becoming acquainted with these wonderful Tibetans who were in the film, because there weren't actors. They were actually acting out what was happening to them. That was a very extraordinary experience for me. And I've remained a supporter of the cause and friends with Tibetans ever since. So that was really world-changing for me. As this movie now, silence has been for me.

• 5:25Alec Baldwin?

  In what way?

• 5:26Speaker 05

  It's made me think deeply about my own faith. And also to learn so much about the people who are still Jesuits, for example, the order, the fervor of that order is extraordinary to meet them. And the advisors who came to help us on the film were so amazing people. So I loved delving into 17th-century Japan. The Japanese actors themselves were so incredible. I couldn't believe how wonderful they were, even the extras. You never had to worry about cutting away from a shot because an extra wasn't paying attention or not doing what they were supposed to do. Every single person who came from Japan to work in that movie were so dedicated.

• 6:10Speaker 05

  And learning to edit people speaking Japanese or Japanese speaking a language that was not native to them was was very interesting, too. But this film, Silence, has had the same impact on me that Kundun did.

• 6:25Alec Baldwin?

  When you talk about the sand mandala and you coming in early to discuss with him, you know, what shots you might need or not need for the sequence, but you say that you're not involved in that kind of composition typically. You don't sit down with him during the period of storyboards. Does he storyboard?

• 6:42Speaker 05

  Oh, yes, he still does. He stood now, he tends to write on the right side of the script, the little image that he wants. No, he designs all the camera work, always has, and I'm not needed usually in the writing or any designing of the film. So I come on when it starts shooting, with the exception of Kundun, really.

• 7:03Alec Baldwin?

  And when you come on when it starts shooting, does he come to, do you come to him? Because I've seen this experience on films that I've made where with any director where the editor is sending messages to them, saying, we could use this, we could use this angle.

• 7:17Speaker 05

  I rarely have to do that with him because he thinks things, he's a great editor. So he thinks like an editor when he conceives of the movie. He usually has an editing style in mind. Also, when he writes or co-writes the movie and when he shoots it, he's thinking like an editor. There are occasions where I do ask for things. For example, in the drowning sequence where Garupe, played by Adam Driver, drowns in silence. It was a very difficult shoot, very cold, and Adam was getting, you know, hypothermia. And so I didn't feel I had quite enough footage for the drowning sequence, particularly

• 7:56Speaker 05

  because the stunt women in Taiwan were not sort of as tough as maybe more experienced stunt women would be. And to be shoved down under the water constantly was was difficult for them. So that was one of the few times.

• 8:11Alec Baldwin?

  Where was that shot?

• 8:12Speaker 05

  In Taiwan, on this incredible sequence where Rodriguez, played by Adam Garfield, is made to watch Japanese Christians pushed off boats wrapped in straw mats so that they will drown. It's a terrifying sequence. And Marty shot it with three cameras. So there wasn't a lot of control in that situation. And he was very interesting. He had an idea that he wanted to show. The horror of these people being pushed off in the water from a wide shot to show the banality of it, like the banality of the way the Nazis killed people. So it was a very complicated shoot. He was trying to get those wide shots, close-ups on Adam Garfield and cover Garoupe and the

• 8:56Speaker 05

  other, and the Japanese Christians, and it was all happening simultaneously. It was chaos. But, so I was eventually able, we never did get any additional footage, but I was able to sort of make it work, I think.

• 9:07Alec Baldwin?

  So never a thought of going into a tank or doing anything with the set?

• 9:10Speaker 05

  There was some thought of that, but then we decided not to, so. But that's one of the few times. There are occasions when I ask for something, but he, he's such a great editor, you know, he knows what he needs. And my husband, Michael Powell, once said to him, "You don't need to do master shots. Cut into the center of the scene. Don't do master shots." Marty only does them now as rehearsal, really. So, not that he doesn't love wide shots, he keeps saying, today with all the fast cutting that's going on, whatever happened to the shot?

• 9:41Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 9:42Speaker 05

  The shot that Stanley Kubrick would come up with.

• 9:44Alec Baldwin?

  Like Woody, like Woody.

• 9:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:46Alec Baldwin?

  Lot of wide shots.

• 9:47Speaker 05

  Five minutes, you could watch this incredible shot and never be bored, and now what's happened to it? He says it's just vanished.

• 9:53Alec Baldwin?

  But, but I want to get back to, when you're in the editing room, are you cutting a film together and you start hearing music yourself? What's the inner life for you when you're cutting a film?

• 10:05Speaker 05

  Well, first of all, the most important time for me is when he looks at dailies. Now, when he's looking at dailies, I look at the footage first, as soon as it comes in, to make sure there isn't something missing, or something wrong, or sometimes the camera. And one of the great shots in Raging Bull, where it begins on De Niro down in the basement of this enormous stadium, and he, the Steadicam camera is backing up in front of him, it's an amazing tortiforce shot. Marty's preferred take on that was ruined in the lab. There was a claw that went off in the camera. And so I had to go on the set and tell him his favorite take was ruined. But fortunately, we had just as good ones.

• 10:47Speaker 05

  But what he does in dailies is really fascinating. I wish that, in a way, filmmakers could listen to him. Because he's very, very tough on himself. And he constantly talks to me during the dailies. I like that, I don't like that. That's, I think I'm gonna get better on take seven. Don't ever show that to me again. Burn that. And so, and I'm also telling him what I think. First of all, he wants me to be a cold eye. He wants me not to have been on the set and see how they did something. Or hear from him what he's going to do. He wants me to look at it cold and tell him if it works. So that is my, part of my job. So I tell him what I think, he tells me what he thinks.

• 11:31Speaker 05

  And from those incredibly rich reactions of him, I then begin to create selects. And then I do the first cut before he comes in, when he's through shooting. And then from that point on, we do all the rest of the 12, if we can get away with it. 12 different edits of the movie together. Very...

• 11:51Alec Baldwin?

  12 different edits of the movie?

• 11:53Speaker 05

  That's right. That's what we prefer to do if we can. And we're one of the...

• 11:56Alec Baldwin?

  Is there a bible that dictates what those 12 are? Can you just, is there a phrase? Do you have a manual? Is there the Thelma Marty manual of that mentions each 12 of those?

• 12:05Speaker 05

  No, what happens is that, you know, we don't screen the first two or three cuts because we're still trying to get the film in shape. But once we start to screen with very few people, maybe 12 people who are friends, who we know will be honest.

• 12:18Alec Baldwin?

  So he does confer with other people?

• 12:20Speaker 05

  Oh, yes. Well, we debrief. I mainly do most of the debriefing afterwards. So we will screen with 12 people, say. Then I debrief them very heavily for two or three days. Then we do the second cut and we screen for more people. And pretty soon, we get up to 200. At which point, I can't debrief everybody. We do cards then. We like to, if we have time, to do 12. Because that's how long it takes. You have to live with the movie. People don't understand that.

• 12:46Alec Baldwin?

  To marinate it.

• 12:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, you have to live with it and learn what it wants and what it needs. And so, all the editing is just absolutely fascinating. You would love to be in the room.

• 12:59Alec Baldwin?

  This is a work that you didn't necessarily, I wouldn't say you fell into it, but you were certainly on a different course for a while.

• 13:07Speaker 05

  Definitely.

• 13:08Alec Baldwin?

  You grew up where?

• 13:09Speaker 05

  My mother and father met in France. They were both Americans. They married there. My older brother was born there in Paris. And then we were transferred to Algeria and my mother crossed the Mediterranean Ocean. She was carrying me at the time. I was born in Algeria. But unfortunately, the North African invasion occurred where all the Allies invaded to try and get rid of the Nazis in other parts of Northern Africa. And so we were evacuated. But my mother loved Algeria. She would have loved to stay there. She was always out.

• 13:39Alec Baldwin?

  Your dad was there because he was with Shell Oil?

• 13:40Speaker 05

  Standard Oil.

• 13:41Alec Baldwin?

  Standard Oil, that's right.

• 13:42Speaker 05

  Esso, yes.

• 13:43Alec Baldwin?

  Esso, yeah.

• 13:44Speaker 05

  And then my father went to Aruba in the Caribbean. And that's where I grew up.

• 13:47Alec Baldwin?

  Where that's so as well?

• 13:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:49Alec Baldwin?

  What was that like? Aruba in the wartime and post-war time?

• 13:54Speaker 05

  Well, in the wartime...

• 13:55Alec Baldwin?

  You were there till 55?

• 13:56Speaker 05

  That's right. And they were actually torpedoing. They were trying to knock, the Germans were trying to knock out the refinery because it was fueling the North African invasion. And so, they would lob torpedoes and also mortars in trying to hit the oil tanks, which were above where we were living. So, we were taken out every night, wrapped in blankets and taken to the one building that was made of stone and stay there. And I remember seeing the burning tankers along the horizon. But eventually, the Germans did not take the island. And what happened was they'd brought all kinds of Europeans, people from Australia, from all over the world. So, I grew up in a European atmosphere, which

• 14:39Speaker 05

  I loved. So, when I came back to the States, when my father was transferred back to New York, it was a shock.

• 14:44Alec Baldwin?

  You had the bends.

• 14:45Speaker 05

  It was shocking. It was really...

• 14:47Alec Baldwin?

  What was the most shocking thing for you? 1955, you're in New York.

• 14:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was, no, New Jersey.

• 14:53Alec Baldwin?

  New Jersey.

• 14:54Speaker 05

  So, in a, my father was commuting into New York. So... I was in Ridgewood, New Jersey, which was of, you know, could, parts of it were, were well off. We were not. We were in the sort of poorer part of it. But the thing that shocked me was the rigidity of this sort of social code. If you weren't a cheerleader or a football player, you were nobody. And I was very unused to that kind of thing.

• 15:15Alec Baldwin?

  Pretribal in American high schools.

• 15:17Speaker 05

  Yes, and, and also seemed very limited, although the education there was excellent. But it wasn't until I went to Cornell University, where I met a whole bunch of New York Jewish girls, I was saved. Because they read books, they listened to music like I did. I was absolutely, and I just loved being at Cornell.

• 15:33Alec Baldwin?

  And you had a different plan? You were gonna study what at Cornell?

• 15:36Speaker 05

  No, well, I wanted to become a diplomat. So I studied the Russian language. It was one of the first Russian language courses in America, because Sputnik had just gone up, so everyone was panicking. And so I studied Russian and political science with some great, great teachers. And then I went and took the Foreign Service exam, passed the exam, but they do a, a stress test with you afterwards, where they have people from the CIA and other things try and upset you, as if you're at a reception in South Africa. And they say, what would you say if somebody said, what do you think about apartheid? I said, I would say it's terrible. And they said, well, you can't say that until the government tells you, you can say that. You're gonna be very-

• 16:16Alec Baldwin?

  It's official policy, yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 05

  That's right. You're gonna be very unhappy here. You should go to the USIA. But I didn't wanna do that. So-

• 16:23Alec Baldwin?

  Why?

• 16:24Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 16:25Alec Baldwin?

  You had the travel bug. What's the difference, don't you?

• 16:27Speaker 05

  You're right. I don't know. It was probably stupid of me, on the other hand. So I went to work for, for the first Peace Corps program at Columbia University. They were going to Sierra Leone. And then I saw something in the New York Times, which never occurs, which said, willing to train assistant film editor.

• 16:45Alec Baldwin?

  Now, no, wait. Now, what the hell were you thinking?

• 16:48Speaker 05

  Well, what was interesting was that there was this wonderful program called Million Dollar Movie-

• 16:54Alec Baldwin?

  I remember.

• 16:55Speaker 05

  -which ran this, the, us the same film nine times. And Scorsese learned about so many films, but particularly the films with Paolo and Pressburger. He would watch them nine times until his mother said she was gonna kill him. And I was watching that same program. I didn't even know that. I was watching The Life and Death of Colonel Blim.

• 17:13Alec Baldwin?

  So you were a movie watcher?

• 17:14Speaker 05

  Well, I guess I was. I didn't know that, that it meant anything, but I remember-

• 17:19Alec Baldwin?

  What were movies in your, what were movies in your family?

• 17:20Speaker 05

  Well, yes, I did see, my mother took me to see The Red Shoes in Aruba. And at one point.

• 17:26Alec Baldwin?

  But they weren't big moviegoers, your parents?

• 17:28Speaker 05

  Um, not big ones, no, but.

• 17:30Alec Baldwin?

  Theater, music?

• 17:31Speaker 05

  Well, yes, it went in, my mother would have, having lived in Paris, she loved all arts and she taught me enormously about that, which was great. It very interesting, my brothers completely didn't go with it at all. They hated it and my mother and I, whenever we would see one of those signs on the side of the road, you know, that says revolutionary farmhouse or something, we would immediately, and they would go, oh, no. And even to this day, my brother won't go into a museum, whereas the first thing I do, I go into a museum. So my mother gave me all of that. I'm so grateful, even though she didn't want me watching television in the afternoon, I did. And I remember that The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, which is still one of, I think, my all time favorite of my husband's films, was seared into my mind. I remember that.

• 18:15Speaker 05

  And I remember Hamlet was pretty, Olivier's Hamlet was pretty startling. But I just guess I saw this ad in the New York Times, said, willing to train assistant filmmaker. And I thought, well, why don't I just go see what this is like? So, and it was this horrible man who was butchering the films of Fellini, Antonioni, Truffaut for late night television shows. And on Rocco and his brother Visconti's great film, he took out one entire reel. I said, you can't do that. And he said, nobody's looking at these things at one o'clock in the morning, but Marty was. And so it was pretty appalling, but I did learn to cut negative and I learned to put subtitles.

• 18:54Alec Baldwin?

  So that was a job you had to do that with?

• 18:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 18:56Alec Baldwin?

  Any trade you had to do it.

• 18:57Speaker 05

  And I learned to use a movie olo, which was very helpful. Then I, I couldn't stand this guy anymore. And I saw an ad and it said, a six week course at, at what was called Washington College, which became part of NYU, and a six week course in, in filmmaking. So I thought, well, if I quit, I just have enough money to take that course. So I went down.

• 19:18Alec Baldwin?

  Something changed while you had that job, you got the bug?

• 19:20Speaker 05

  I guess so, I guess so. So I get there at this course and run by incredible Armenian American named Hagmanujian. And when I first went down, I was a little late and I heard somebody screaming inside the lecture hall. Turned out that's just the way Hagmanujian always talked. And he was a wonderful support to Marty and.

• 19:39Alec Baldwin?

  Marty wasn't there then, was he?

• 19:40Speaker 05

  Well, Marty, no, this is how I met him. So we go to this six weeks course and they carve us up into ten, ten people for each little film. And the film I was on was a documentary about harness racing. So boring, but. At the end of the six weeks, close to the end of the six weeks, the professor said, "Does anybody here know how to cut negative or help Martin Scorsese because he's made a student film and somebody has cut his negative wrong?" And so, "If there's anybody who can help him." And I said, "Well, I'll try," you know. And I went over and he'd been up for two days editing the movie and he was completely zonked, but his eyes were open. And so, I started running the film on the synchronizer and I said, "Well, you've lost six frames here.

• 20:24Speaker 05

  Maybe we can add them at the tail or..." So, I helped him patch it back together.

• 20:27Alec Baldwin?

  But explain to people who don't know what you mean by negative cutting.

• 20:30Speaker 05

  What happens is when you get a take, the camera slows down and you get what's called a flash frame, so a white four or five frames. You finish editing your movie, then you have to cut the negative to fit the way you've edited the work print. So, you pull the negative first from flash frame to flash frame and then, very carefully, you-

• 20:50Alec Baldwin?

  Spice it together.

• 20:51Speaker 05

  You match it to the work print and you cut off what you don't need. You never cut right close to what the number was on the work print. And this young woman had accidentally done that. By the way, about fifty years later, she contacted me and she said-

• 21:09Alec Baldwin?

  She approached us?

• 21:10Speaker 05

  "I'm the person who did it and I'm so sorry." And I said, "No, don't be sorry. You gave me the greatest life in the world. If you hadn't missed cut that negative, I would never have met him."

• 21:20Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, my God.

• 21:21Speaker 05

  So, it's a miracle.

• 21:22Alec Baldwin?

  So, you salvage Marty's-

• 21:24Speaker 05

  Student film.

• 21:26Alec Baldwin?

  Student film. And what did you make of him then?

• 21:28Speaker 05

  Well-

• 21:29Alec Baldwin?

  It's a young, it's Marty who was in college.

• 21:30Speaker 05

  Right. Well, all of us knew from one particular student film called "It's Not Just You, Murray," which is filled with incredible ideas, that he had it. It was very clear he had it.

• 21:42Alec Baldwin?

  What was the it that he had? Storytelling on film?

• 21:44Speaker 05

  Brilliant ideas, startling ideas. For example, "It's Not Just You, Murray" starts with somebody's shoes and a hand comes into frame and he encourages the camera to lift up to his face. It was just unbelievable. Great, great ideas. So, then, what happened was a group of us got together and we were making films for PBS short films, covering Aretha Franklin concerts and helping fellow filmmakers finish their films. And one of them was Marty's- Who's That Knocking?, his first feature film, which he had shot part of and had run out of money. And so we volunteered our efforts to help him finish it. And then he taught me how to edit on that movie.

• 22:28Speaker 05

  I knew nothing about editing, nothing. So I was on the crew as we were trying to help him finish it. And we all did everything. We pushed the wheelchair that had the cameraman in it, because we didn't have dollies. We ran sound. I would get lunch. I learned to tie into power sources in the basement. People said to me, bend your legs, because if you get the jolt, you'll fall down and it'll break the contact. So, and I drove the car with the cameraman on the front for, and again, for a tracking shot. It was great.

• 23:01Alec Baldwin?

  I think it was the Coen Brothers. I could be wrong. I was reading an article about Raising Arizona, and they, they were saying how their improvisations with the camera led to, like, certain names. They had a thing called the blankie cam. And if you wanted the camera to have the point of view of the dog that was attacking you, they would lay the cinematography operator on a blanket and pull him across the lawn.

• 23:23Speaker 05

  Right.

• 23:24Alec Baldwin?

  And he'd be right on the heels of the victim.

• 23:25Speaker 05

  Yeah. And everybody was doing that. I mean, now, you know Napoleon, the great film by Abel Goss, a silent film. He had small cameras that he threw over the, he had people throw them over the wall of this fortress to give the idea of what a cannonball would be like going into a fortress. So it was the point of view of, of the cannonball.

• 23:46Alec Baldwin?

  [laughing]

• 23:47Speaker 05

  So people, you know, people were inventing all of these things all along in, in film.

• 23:55Alec Baldwin?

  Coming up, the one piece of work that Schoonmaker considers the perfect film.

• 24:03Alec Baldwin?

  To hear another voice behind some of Hollywood's biggest films, check out my interview with former Walt Disney CEO Michael Eisner. Today, he still prefers movie theaters to a private screening room.

• 24:15Speaker 06

  I almost only go to the theater. I go at least twice a week.

• 24:20Alec Baldwin?

  And what, and what do you do?

• 24:21Speaker 06

  I often go at 10 o'clock or midnight. Can't drag my wife out usually. I'll go in the afternoon. I can remember even being at ABC when I was 27 years old and having a fight with somebody and saying, you know what? I'm getting out of here and go to Broadway and go to a movie.

• 24:40Alec Baldwin?

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• 27:14Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Initially studying to become an international diplomat, Algerian-born Thelma Schoonmaker's life took an interesting turn in the late 1960s when she met Martin Scorsese, then asleep-deprived film student. The partnership changed her life, eventually leading her to Michael Powell, a cinematic mastermind in his own right, whom she'd marry in 1984. But before love came work, with Marty, as she calls Scorsese, driving the train.

• 27:47Speaker 05

  He taught me how to build a scene, how to, when to use close-ups, when not to use close-ups, how to learn what's good acting,

• 27:57Speaker 05

  how to build rhythm between two actors.

• 27:59Alec Baldwin?

  He's never in a position where the actors he's working with don't deliver what he wants. He gets the actors he wants. Or he doesn't make the film.

• 28:06Speaker 05

  Yes, he casts impeccably, but there are good and weaker performances, you know, so one of my jobs is to make sure we're using the very best. And you wean down and wean down.

• 28:18Alec Baldwin?

  Is there a technique to that as well? Avoid close-ups from people you think are less truthful?

• 28:22Speaker 05

  Oh, no, no. I mean, usually you can always, with him, he knows, he shoots until he gets what he needs. He knows what he needs. Particularly as an editor, he knows what he needs.

• 28:30Alec Baldwin?

  Less the people are weak than just other people dazzle you.

• 28:34Speaker 05

  Well, some, yeah, I mean, some actors, it's take one, you know. Other actors work towards something. For example, Marty and De Niro did 15 takes on the last scene in Raging Bull, where De Niro is confronting himself as Jake LaMotta in the mirror and he's doing the "on the waterfront" speech. They wanted to do 15 takes because they were trying different ways of him confronting himself, actually forgiving himself. And I thought one take was more emotional, I liked that. But Marty liked another one that was colder. And so we screened it two ways with friends of ours, and he was right. So that's the kind of thing, so it doesn't mean, some actors like Daniel Day-Lewis or Cate Blanchett are often like, take one, that's it. They come in so prepared, so they're

• 29:19Speaker 05

  living that part. Other actors like to work towards it. Leo and Bob like to work towards something with Marty. So it's a matter of just trying to get the best and then seeing, is that working with what's the best and the other actor? Maybe it's not, so you have to change something. It's very difficult to describe editing.

• 29:39Alec Baldwin?

  You made that clear.

• 29:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, so one of the first things he would have taught me is how not to go to close-ups too quickly, that two shots are sometimes just as good. But that's a very simple thing. I mean, there's so much that's about rhythm and pace and...

• 29:54Alec Baldwin?

  Letting it breathe.

• 29:56Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:57Alec Baldwin?

  Letting it breathe, watching the people feel and go through it.

• 30:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, and Marty wants people to, particularly with a film like Silence, which is so different from what's being done today, he wants people to engage with the movie and make up their own mind about what they're seeing, not be told what to think. He hates that when filmmakers tell you what to think. A lot of that goes on today. So one of the things he wanted in Silence was to not have any score at all, because he felt the score might be telling people what to think. Eventually, we do have a very subliminal score, which comes out of cicadas and things. And there are a few times where you hear a piece of music up front, but normally you don't, because he did not want to tell them what to think. He wants them to feel it and make up their own mind. And after people see Silence, they

• 30:45Speaker 05

  say they talk about it for two weeks, because there are so many big questions that are raised there about doubt and faith, that it provokes that kind of thought, which is what he wanted. That's all he wanted.

• 30:57Alec Baldwin?

  Now, the movie opens Silence.

• 30:59Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 30:59Alec Baldwin?

  It's very quiet, if you will, but nonetheless, it's a sequence of torture. It's a sequence of Liam Neeson, you know, watching, deciding, I want to ruin the film for people, but something horrific is happening. And you've edited some films that are these spectacularly violent films. Now, I've seen films that are more graphic, I'm not saying that they're graphic by any means, I've seen movies that are far more graphic and far more or less effective as a result of it.

• 31:24Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 31:25Alec Baldwin?

  That's never been an issue for you? Was there ever times you sat there and said, my god, this is tough to watch?

• 31:30Speaker 05

  Well, the thing is, you see, that we create that violence in... The editing room, there's no way that De Niro could take an actual punch. All the times you see it in, in the film, when he was being hit in the head, there was no hand in the glove. Um, and so his, he was, his head was being nudged and blood and saliva would spray off it. But he, there's no way he could have taken all that punishment. So our job is to make sure that we make it look as if he, he took that hit. It's not actually violent, when I get it, I make it violent with Marty. I, uh, let me just say first that I think Marty's use of violence is, is, uh, very, uh,

• 32:15Speaker 05

  important because there is, as we know, living in this particular time, tremendous violence around the world, and if you think there isn't, you're, you're kidding yourself. If you can show it properly without being gratuitous, and I don't think he ever is, it's important that it be part of the films he particularly makes. He grew up in a very violent neighborhood. He grew up in a neighborhood where the mafia would tell people, "Take your children off the street at three o'clock."

• 32:43Alec Baldwin?

  Because something's gonna happen.

• 32:44Speaker 05

  And, uh, someone would be gunned down on the street and the kids would go back and play again. So he saw a lot of that. It is something he grew up with and he understands very deeply. But I must tell you that if you see, for example, in Casino, Joe Pesci put somebody's head in a vice with, with the eye bulging, right? That's all, takes an enormous amount of editing to make that believable. Of course, that never really happens. But I do remember we had one screening where it was, I think, uh, Mike Ovitz and two other people, somebody from the studio and maybe Marty's agent, another agent. And Marty and I were sitting behind them, they were all wearing blue suits. And when that came up, the first shot of that eye and the vice came up, um, they all

• 33:28Speaker 05

  went, "Oh my God." And their, their arms went back in sync over their heads. And Marty said to me, "How many more shots of this do we have?" I said, "Five." And he went, "Oh." So we cut that down. But, um, it's never violent when I get it.

• 33:43Alec Baldwin?

  But was there one sequence of violence or no? Just in terms of action, the pacing, the intention? Give us an example of a scene that was a particularly difficult one for you to cut a real challenge.

• 33:54Speaker 05

  I, I think sometimes films need to be restructured and, uh, for example, departed.

• 34:00Speaker 05

  needed to be restructured, even Kundun, we had to pull up the Chinese invasion. It was taking too long. So there, the restructuring is sometimes very important in a movie. But also, silence was very hard for me because to get the right meditative pace without being boring was, was very important. And it was very interesting to try and incorporate the Japanese actor's style of acting with the Westerners. So they're, they're all hard in different ways, but I can't think of one that was really.

• 34:33Alec Baldwin?

  Excessively so, yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 05

  No, particularly not the violence because Marty storyboards it very carefully. So putting it together is not that hard. Making it believable is hard. You know, when, when somebody throws a punch, they're actually missing the other actor's chin by half an inch. So, and the actor then snaps his head back to make it look. So you have to get the right one of those. Sometimes he's not, he's, he's too far away or whatever. Makes it believable is something that's part of my job.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  More after the break.

• 35:07Speaker 01

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• 35:52Speaker 01

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• 35:55Speaker 08

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience, whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 36:13Speaker 01

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• 36:56Speaker 11

  This is Stugatz from Stugatz and Company Live. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features, N-Tech, or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you can get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 37:35Alec Baldwin?

  One of the things about it is I wonder during the arc of his career is how much producers and studios try to interfere with the movie he's making.

• 37:43Speaker 05

  Always.

• 37:43Alec Baldwin?

  So it remains that way?

• 37:45Speaker 05

  Well, but he's gained a great deal of control as the films go on. But we do get notes from the producers or the studio, more from the studio, actually, not from the producers.

• 37:56Alec Baldwin?

  Without naming names, is there anyone he ever takes there, counselors or a producer he's ever relied on for any information?

• 38:01Speaker 05

  Well, the great thing about Marty is he will listen, but he will not do anything that conflicts with what he thinks is right. He will burn the film first, and I'm not kidding. Of course, it's a little hard to burn digital now, so.

• 38:14Alec Baldwin?

  It can be done.

• 38:15Speaker 05

  But he will. I mean, I've seen him take that stand. But what happened is that he learned very early on to walk the tightrope between art and commerce very cleverly because I think, to a certain extent, you know, he said, "I grew up in a neighborhood where power was around all the time, and I understand it. I know how to work it." He's been in situations, I think with Taxi Driver, where he said he was gonna kill the head of the studio. This is already documented by the Phillips, who were the producers. But now, what he does is he knows how to talk them out of it. Or, you know, I get the notes first, and I only tell him anything I think that he should hear. And he will listen, but he also is able to defend his position extremely well, and I've

• 39:00Speaker 05

  seen him do it over and over again. One time I was with him, and it was a subject matter that I'd done some research on by myself, and he thought I might be involved in this meeting. And somebody said, "You know, what we should do, we should take the plot of Gone with the Wind and insert it into this script." And I was just about to walk out of the room when I heard that, and Marty was brilliant. He said, "Well, that's a very good idea, George, but I couldn't make that movie." Which was very kind, you know, he didn't, he wasn't in front of, however, I've seen him also when he'll storm out, you know, just say, "It's your movie or mine. You take it, you put your name on it, I'm taking mine off." I've, I've seen that happen several times.

• 39:42Speaker 05

  I've also seen him do something wonderful, which is to just wear them down by telling them long stories about gang chiefs that he knew in his neighborhood. There was one particular time where we were in a room where the air conditioning was very cold, no one had brought water in, and everyone was getting hungry, it was getting towards 12. And he was going on in these long stories about crazy mafia guys, and finally, he just wore, they just gave up. And his, his two agents were texting each other, and one of them said, "Where is he going with this?" But you know what he was doing.

• 40:16Alec Baldwin?

  No, you, you have been married to filmmaking and editing and your famous counterpart for years and years, and then you got married.

• 40:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:24Alec Baldwin?

  Tell us about that. Where did you meet him?

• 40:26Speaker 05

  Well, interestingly, because I had seen Life and Death of Colonel Blim, made by my husband, Michael Powell, when I was, you know, 16, and it stayed in my head. When Marty started educating me on Raging Bull, he started educating me about the films of Powell and Pressburger, because he had just gone and found Michael Powell, living in poverty and really forgotten, unbelievable.

• 40:51Alec Baldwin?

  Where was he?

• 40:52Speaker 05

  He was in England, in this little cottage I still own. The British Film Institute was trying, people like Ian Christie, Kevin Goffe Yates, and even Bertrand Tvernier in France, were trying to revive the films. But Marty, with his high profile, was able to bring Michael to Telluride, re-enter Peeping Tom into the New York Film Festival, it had never been properly distributed here, and just revive the whole canon. So that was going on then, it was a great miracle. But I saw Michael stand in front of audiences and see his films come back to life. It was heaven, I can't tell you. Marty was so dedicated to that. So he was educating me as we were cutting Raging Bull.

• 41:34Speaker 05

  And Michael Powell came over to the Museum of Modern Art, did the first big retrospective on him in America. Marty said to me, "I want you to go to the MoMA, not work," which was amazing. I go to the MoMA and look at The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp. And Michael Powell was there, and I went up to him, and I said, "I'm Marty's editor," but he was very distracted, because I think he was thinking about the great love of his life, Deborah Carr, who was in that movie, that's when they fell in love, and then broke up after it. But then Marty said, "He's coming to dinner, would you like to meet him, because you're so much in love with their movies now?" And I said, "Yes." And when I met him, I just fell in love with him immediately. He was so astounding. I wish you'd met him.

• 42:15Speaker 05

  He was an amazing human being, and he didn't talk much, but when he said something, it was very interesting. And then he came back after the dinner. I was cutting Raging Bull in a bedroom in Marty's apartment, where he was living with Isabella Rossellini. He had an extra bedroom, and we had film racks in the bathtub, in the adjoining bathroom. My husband thought that was one of the funniest things. He just roared when he saw that. So he came back to talk to me, and we started having lunch, and then things developed, and then we had to tell everybody. So he came to live with me in New York on King of Comedy. And Isabella, Marty's wife at the time, Isabella Rossellini, came and said to me,

• 43:00Speaker 05

  "Thelma, Michael should come live with us. There's no reason for you to have to put him up in your hotel room here." And I said, "Well..."

• 43:06Alec Baldwin?

  I don't think you quite understand.

• 43:07Speaker 05

  I have to tell you, we're actually living together. Oh, Marty will be so thrilled. Well, Marty, of course, was a bit stunned. Everybody was. I mean, there was thirty years difference in us. But it didn't matter because Michael had the heart of a sixteen-year-old. So we had ten blissful years. But Marty, it was a shock for Marty because he knew then that I would maybe at certain times want to go home and cook dinner for Michael.

• 43:29Alec Baldwin?

  There was another man in your life. Another director!

• 43:33Speaker 05

  He loved having Michael with us, and it was such a wonderful friendship to watch, I can't tell you. And Michael had a great influence on our movies.

• 43:43Alec Baldwin?

  Did your relationship wind up costing you any editing assignments with Marty? Did you ever miss any job?

• 43:47Speaker 05

  No.

• 43:47Alec Baldwin?

  You've edited every one of Marty's movies.

• 43:50Speaker 05

  No.

• 43:51Alec Baldwin?

  What are the exceptions?

• 43:52Speaker 05

  So, we made Woodstock, and Marty left Woodstock early and went to Bustin and Hollywood. And we finished Woodstock, the mix of Woodstock out there, but we were not appreciated by the unions, and they didn't like the fact that New Yorkers, because we were two separate editing unions at that point, and they didn't like us being there. And then Marty wanted me to work with him, but I, the union, said no, because she's not in our union, and she's going to have to start as an apprentice for five years, and then five years as an assistant, and then she'll be allowed to... I'd just been nominated for Woodstock for an Oscar. So I said, "I'm not going to do it." So he couldn't work with me until Raging Bull, when Erwin Winkler, the producer, got me in the union.

• 44:37Alec Baldwin?

  So those films prior to Raging Bull were?

• 44:39Speaker 05

  They were Boxcar Bertha, Mean Streets, Alice, New York, New York, and Taxi Driver.

• 44:47Speaker 05

  I didn't cut any of those movies.

• 44:49Alec Baldwin?

  Who cut Taxi Driver?

• 44:50Speaker 05

  Marshall Lucas, the three editors were actually working with him then. Marshall Lucas, who was George Lucas's wife, was at the time. So he had, he was working with multiple editors and sometimes editors who did not want the director in the editing room. That's why he wanted to work with me again, because he felt...

• 45:06Alec Baldwin?

  So that was the impetus of your marriage, if you will, was it, the two of you?

• 45:11Speaker 05

  Yes, because...

• 45:12Alec Baldwin?

  He wanted you around.

• 45:13Speaker 05

  What happened is that he felt that, from the very beginning, that I would be a collaborator and there wouldn't be ego battles over who's got the right idea about this cut or not, which...

• 45:21Alec Baldwin?

  Who knows more about editing?

• 45:23Speaker 05

  Often happens between directors and editors, and that's very bad for a movie, when they're fighting over...

• 45:28Alec Baldwin?

  And you made very few movies with other directors. You've only made a couple, correct?

• 45:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:32Alec Baldwin?

  Alison Anders you did a movie with?

• 45:33Speaker 05

  Yes, at Marty's request. He was executive producing it, so I helped with that. But then on Raging Bull, I was allowed to come back as long as there was a standby editor on both coasts, but still they terrorized us out there. If we were mixing, say, until 12 o'clock at night, they would turn on the lights of our cars and the radio so that our batteries would be dead when we came out. That went on all the time. We had to get a bodyguard for Marty, actually. And things like raging bullshit scrolled on the walls. But finally, that ended, and now we're all one local, one happy local, and there's no problems like that anymore.

• 46:12Alec Baldwin?

  Well, two things. One is roles for women in Marty's films. I mean, women have their place in Marty's films, because they're, you know, men are their protagonists, and the women, like in Raging Bull or Casino. And then you see a movie like Age of Innocence, where he's got a female lead in the film, and one of the biggest stars of her day. Was it different for him to direct women, or to develop roles for women in his films?

• 46:39Speaker 05

  I didn't sense that. I kind of like the women in his films. I mean, I think Cathy Moriarty is wonderful in Raging Bull. Winona Ryder is absolutely stunning in Age of Innocence. And I don't have a problem with the women in Marty's films.

• 46:53Alec Baldwin?

  No, I don't say I have a problem with them.

• 46:54Speaker 05

  I know some people do, yeah.

• 46:55Alec Baldwin?

  He hasn't made a lot of films with female leads, is what I mean.

• 46:58Speaker 05

  No.

• 46:58Alec Baldwin?

  And maybe that's not his bailiwick.

• 47:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, I guess not.

• 47:01Alec Baldwin?

  Right. But that's okay. Now, the last thing I want to ask you is, there's so many facets to filmmaking. There's so many elements to filmmaking, not just things that are camera-centric, you know, like the lighting and the cutting and everything, but there's wardrobes and sets and actors and editing and pacing and stuff, where there's so much that goes into it. What's a film that comes to mind of his when you think about that all those aspects of filmmaking come together in your mind and just the sets and then everything? And it's that painting, it's art.

• 47:31Speaker 05

  I always say, it's very hard because I hate to have to pick one. I love them all for different reasons, but because working on Raging Bull was my first major feature film on a big Hollywood set, I didn't even know how to locate, I didn't know how to behave. Fortunately, I had an assistant in it. I used to put my own trims away. Now I have three assistants and it was weird. Marty said, "Don't worry, I'll help you through it, don't worry." But for me, that movie was so astounding. When I saw The Dailies, I just couldn't take my eyes off De Niro. It was such brilliant direction, such brilliant cinematography, the black and white cinematography, such brilliant acting and improvisation. I love improvisation. It's very hard to cut, but I love it.

• 48:13Speaker 05

  And the challenge that De Niro and Pesci gave me was amazing. It was the music, the use of music, the power, the strength of the movie all over. It made it the one that I think is actually the perfect film. And I screened it recently. I go to Seattle, to the Seattle Art Museum a lot to do show, Michael Powell films. And we screened a really good print from the Academy, a film print of Raging Bull, and I could not get over it. It was burned into the screen. It was just one of the most beautiful things I'd ever seen. So I have to say that that is overall the one that I think everything just clicked together in an amazing way.

• 48:55Alec Baldwin?

  Do you know that, for me, the memories of Marty are all the things you say, that opening title sequence, the horror of him going into the jail cell and punching the wall. That's so, it's so, you know, that man, he was like a sick animal. And I've known people like that. But my other favorite moment, because it's so opaque and it's so brilliantly weird, is that moment when De Niro tries to brush.

• 49:25Alec Baldwin?

  Lorraine down into that building. He's down there. It's down there.

• 49:29Speaker 05

  Goodfellas, yeah.

• 49:29Alec Baldwin?

  In Goodfellas. Oh, go on in there.

• 49:32Speaker 05

  Really?

• 49:32Alec Baldwin?

  Nothing's on the money, nothing's said.

• 49:34Speaker 05

  Scary.

• 49:35Alec Baldwin?

  It's just the weirdness of that moment.

• 49:37Speaker 05

  That gesture, that hand gesture is just... Well, he's just amazing, you know? I mean, I could just look at that film over and over again and never get tired of it. Because to watch him, when he's questioning his brother, you know, about his wife, oh my God. I mean, the way Bob, what he did with his face there is just astounding. You know, nobody improvises like Bob and Joe Pesci together. They kick each other off in the most amazing ways. And I love it. It's hard, but it's like putting a puzzle together, you know? And I love that.

• 50:15Alec Baldwin?

  In a recent interview with the L.A. Times, Scorsese equated his and Thelma Schoonmaker's editing to a process so singular that it's, quote, "almost like making home movies," unquote. Lucky for us, they decided to share.

• 50:31Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.

• 50:52Speaker 12

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• 51:50Speaker 11

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