The Brutal Truth About Relationships You Need to Hear

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — Do you want to know the best relationship advice no one has ever told you before? In today’s episode, Mel is revealing the one rule about relationships you must know. There is a game-changing framework that will help any relationship go the distance, and once you hear it, you’ll want to share it with everyone you know. It reveals why some relationships fail, and it also gives you the secret to sustaining a strong and successful relationship. Here to explain this “4 Levels” framework is New York Times bestselling author Matthew Hussey. Matthew has been helping people for more than 17 years to feel more confident and in control of their relationships. His YouTube channel is number one in the world for love life advice, with over half a billion views. By the end of today’s episode, you’ll know when it’s time to let go of a relationship, when it’s worth fighting for, and the 4 habits of all successful relationships. Matthew's website: https://matthewhussey.com/ Follow Matthew on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thematthewhussey For more resources, including links to Matthew’s new book, YouTube, and social media platforms, click here for the podcast episode page: www.melrobbins.com/podcasts/episode-177 Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast In this episode: 00:02:02: Do you want to feel more confident and in control of your relationships? 00:03:11: What the 4 level framework for any relationship is. 00:05:28: The level that is the most dangerous level to be stuck in with someone. 00:07:22: How to really know if someone is willing to commit to you. 00:09:35: How to have the “what is this” conversation with the person you are newly dating. 00:12:02: How to calmly communicate what you need in a relationship. 00:16:25: If you feel resentment and anger in your relationship, listen to this. 00:19:00: How Matthew almost messed up his relationship with his wife. 00:23:20: When you are getting mixed signals from someone, text them this. 00:26:45 What you need to know if someone you love is wasting your time. 00:28:05: What Matthew means when he says this is THE hardest conversation you will ever have. 00:32:08: How to truly understand what you want and what matters to you. 00:34:12: Date the person, not their potential. 00:36:28: Why love is not all you need for a healthy and long relationship. 00:39:42: How to know if you are compatible with someone you are with. 00:42:10: What it looks like to value yourself in a relationship. #RelationshipAdvice #MixedSignals #RelationshipFramework — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah #lifeadvice #selfdevelopment #habits

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:08Mel Robbins?

  I am so glad that you're here with me today. It is always such an honor to get to spend some time with you. And I want to start by acknowledging you for choosing to listen or watch something that is going to help you create a better life. I think that's just super cool that you're taking time for yourself and it's a real honor to spend that time with you. And if you're brand new to the Mel Robbins Podcast, welcome to the family. I'm Mel and I'm in a mission to empower and inspire you with tools and the expert resources that you need to create a better life. And today, you and I are going to talk about romantic relationships. I mean, let's face it, romantic relationships are not only a critically important part of creating a meaningful and profound life, but they can be so complicated. And

• 0:53Mel Robbins?

  just a couple of months ago, I stumbled upon this concept. It's incredible. It's called "The Four Levels of a Relationship," and it literally blew my mind, and you need to learn this. The four levels are relevant, whether you're single, like so many of my friends, or two of our adult children are single, or they're also relevant whether you're in a relationship and you're not sure, is this the right person? Is this going to work out? The four levels are going to blow your mind. And if you're married like me, you need to know these levels, because you just assume that your relationship is going to go the distance. Well, just because you have a ring on your finger, or the person sleeps next to you every single night in bed, that doesn't mean it's going to last.

• 1:37Mel Robbins?

  And if you don't know what level you're on, it's not going to last. In fact, the most dangerous mistake that you can make in a relationship is not knowing what level your partner is on versus what level you're on. And being on different levels creates all the friction and problem in your relationship. So today, you are learning this game-changing framework. And I cannot wait for you to hear this, for you to use this, and for you to share this with the people that you love.

• 2:15Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel. And a couple of months ago, I stumbled upon this concept called "The Four Levels of a Romantic Relationship," and it literally blew my mind. So I picked up the phone and I reached out to the guy who created it. His name is Matthew Hussey. He's a New York Times bestselling author, and he has been helping people for more than 17 years to feel more confident and in control of their relationships every day. More than 3 million people turn to Matthew Hussey for relationship advice on his YouTube channel, which is dedicated to helping you create a better love life. And I cannot wait to jump into this conversation because I am certain that his four-level framework is the best relationship advice that nobody has ever told you.

• 2:59Mel Robbins?

  So without further ado, please help me welcome Matthew Hussey to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Oh, my gosh, you're in the house. I can't believe it.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  This is exciting. I've been waiting for this one.

• 3:11Mel Robbins?

  Oh, have you?

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. We're looking forward to talking with you.

• 3:14Mel Robbins?

  Well, I've been waiting for you too, because you run the number-one channel for advice on all of YouTube. And I cannot wait to learn from you. I can't wait for the person who's listening to learn. And here's where I want to start. You have this incredible framework that you use when you're coaching people on relationships using four levels. It's called "The Four Levels of a Relationship." Can you explain it?

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Level one, admiration. Level two is mutual attraction. Level three is commitment. Level four is compatibility.

• 3:57Mel Robbins?

  I love this concept and this framework, because if you don't know what level you're in, no wonder your relationship isn't working. Let's go through these levels, one by one, and really break them down.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Let me start with this. Level one is just admiration. That's when you see someone, you may even see them from afar. They may not know you exist, but there's something you admire about them. You think they're attractive, hot, impressive, whatever it may be, compelling.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Now, on its own, not important. The person doesn't, they're not attracted to you. This is completely unrequited. There's nothing important about it. It's just you having decided that someone is an impressive, wonderful, or just attractive person. Then there's level two. Level two is mutual attraction. Okay. Now, this is when two people find chemistry, a connection. There's a shared attraction between them. Now, this is perhaps the most dangerous level. Because when we get attracted to someone, which by the way, for many of us, we feel like doesn't happen nearly often enough, and then we find that that person is attracted back, we feel like we've found the holy grail. Yes. Like, this is it.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  It feels like an explosion. It's like, oh my god, this is the most important thing in the world. I have to do everything for this thing. Yes, so this is level two, and this is dangerous. Why is this dangerous? Because on its own, it's not that important. A connection is not the rarest thing in the world. That's true. Sexual chemistry is not the rarest thing in the world, but it feels, when you find it, like it's so important. But, we realize it's not important when we get to level three. Level three is commitment. Two people actually saying yes to each other. You know, the number of people that I speak to that start with, I have this amazing person in my life, they're this, they're that, they're the other, they're, you know, Matt, you, you,

• 5:53Speaker 01

  this person, that we can talk about anything, we have the most amazing time together, and I know, I already know, there's a huge but coming, otherwise it wouldn't start with all of this amazing stuff. And the punchline often is some form of, but, they don't want a relationship. But, they say they're not ready. But, they're confused about me. And it's like, okay, so, we're in level two. We're not in level three. And there's a world of difference between those two places. Level two is a plot of land. It may look like a plot of land that's in a great part of town, or it looks over a lake, or is in an amazing part of the city. It's an amazing plot of land. Oof, something amazing could go here.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  You meet a person, and the connection, the attraction, the chemistry makes you feel like you've got an amazing plot of land. And all you can see is what could get built on that plot of land, and how incredible that could be. Yep. But in order for that to become that, you need a builder. And the next question is, do you actually have a builder? Because when you have a builder and two people build together, they create something extraordinary on that land. They build their castle, whatever that castle is. And the more you build it, the more ornate it becomes, the more beautiful it becomes. It is weathered in all sorts of ways that are distinct to your relationship. The secret rooms no one else knows about, that only the two of you know about. It's your castle together. That's what's beautiful.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  That's what makes a relationship really, really special is all of the work that's gone into building something truly unique that only the two of you could have built. Now imagine the scene of you sitting there, building away at this castle, and the other builder is AWOL. They're not even there. They are somewhere else because they're not trying to build with you. They're not trying to have a relationship, they just want an experience. It's a completely different thing. So, level three is a relationship, it's commitment. Level two is just an experience.

• 8:00Mel Robbins?

  This is painful. Well, I shouldn't say it's painful. I'm thinking on behalf of so many of the listeners who are single in their twenties and thirties and forties and online dating. Because I would imagine that there's a tremendous amount of confusion between level two and level three. And my next question is, how the hell do you know if you're in level three? How do you know if somebody actually wants a commitment the way that you do?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  You have the conversation you're too afraid to have right now. The one that you've been putting off because it feels so good to keep enjoying this thing, that you don't want to wreck it, you don't want to drive it away. You are afraid that if you have the question, you're going to be seen as difficult. So we don't say it. We're afraid of the effects. And what we think is, by the way, if I could just keep getting closer and closer and closer to this person, if I can make myself indispensable, if I can just get so close that I'm basically, you know, integrated with their, every part of their life, then... Essentially, they'll see my value and, and by the way, they'll start giving as

• 9:16Speaker 01

  much as I am because they'll realize my value. Unfortunately, the opposite happens is we give and we give and we give and we give. And someone learns that there's absolutely no price to pay for the giving. So everything we give gets completely taken for granted and assumed. And we come to find after months or sometimes years of being in limbo with someone. When we finally say, what is this, they're like, I don't know. And you realize you've wasted all that time and energy, all because you weren't prepared to have a hard conversation. And the every, every great relationship is formed in the crucible of, of hard conversations.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  And a hard conversation, by the way, is it doesn't have to be an aggressive or, or, you know, a pushy conversation. It could be a very elegant conversation. A hard conversation is just the one you're afraid to have.

• 10:14Mel Robbins?

  That's true.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  You're gonna find out very quickly where you stand and you're also introducing an element of, I'm not gonna be here forever.

• 10:23Mel Robbins?

  So let's role play. So I'm in, we're in a level two relationship.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:29Mel Robbins?

  And I want a commitment. I'm scared to death to ask you. I don't know how many other people you're dating. We've kind of been in that zone where we're hooking up and we're going out on dates and I feel like it's vibing and I now, I don't even know what the language is anymore. That's how old I am. Do we say monogamous? Do we say exclusive? Do we say that we're like dating, heaven forbid? Is that not a word we use? Like, I don't know. Every time I would say something to my daughters, like, that's everything. I'm like, okay, okay, okay. I don't know what the terminology is. Anyhow, uh, we're in a level two. How do I bring this up with you? Can you give me the sentence, Matt?

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. There are different ways to come at this, but I'll give you one way.

• 11:16Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  But I realized I'm investing a lot of kind of time and energy into this. And it's an amount of time and energy and intimacy that. I wouldn't be giving if we were still giving it to other people. And I know that I'm not because it's just not me. And I wanted to know if you're in the same place. If you're not, that's totally okay. Like, I get it. It's fine. You know, there's no pressure. But if you're not in that place, I need to reevaluate how much I'm giving to this. Because I'm excited to meet someone that values the same things I do or has the same things in mind that I do. And I want to give my energy to someone who's in that place. And I realize we haven't even had that conversation.

• 12:02Mel Robbins?

  You know, Matt, I am having a great time with you. I feel like I'm on The Bachelor right now.

• 12:12Mel Robbins?

  I am having a great time with you, but you know, I just got out of a long-term relationship and I don't want to hurt you.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:17Mel Robbins?

  I'd like to still see you. But like, this is why these are hard conversations.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's a very real response, right? So let's keep, because that's a very realistic response.

• 12:29Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  By a lot of people. You say, look, that's totally cool. I can't keep giving my energy to someone who's not on the same page as me. Like, it's not, for me, I know my energy is really precious. I know how much I have to offer someone. And if you're not in that place, it doesn't, you know, you don't need to worry about hurting me because I'm always gonna just do what's right for me anyway. And as much as I like spending time with you, you know, I value what I want more than that. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my own thing. But you know, I wish you the best and you're a great guy and it's okay. Like, I get it. You're a great person. I hope you find happiness in whatever you do,

• 13:12Speaker 01

  but I can't keep giving time and energy to someone who wants something different than I do.

• 13:16Mel Robbins?

  There's a couple of things I want to pull out that I think are incredibly important that I noticed and I wonder if it was on purpose. First of all, I loved that you didn't say that you liked me. You specifically said you liked the time that we had spent together. And that left you, like, playing the person that's not as interested in the Level 2, I'm not ready to go to Level 3. Hearing that you liked the time made you seem stronger and more confident because you weren't sounding like, "Hey, I really like you. Do you like me?" And fishing for an answer. And then when you said, you used the word "energy."

• 13:59Mel Robbins?

  You didn't use the word "I'm looking for a commitment, I'm looking for monogamy." You didn't use those words that feel like you're locking someone down. The way that the coaching went, that you just gave us in the script that you can now play and you should repeat in your dating and your relationship life, was one where you said, "I value my energy, and I know myself, and I want to put my energy into things that are going somewhere." And so, "I want to have that conversation because this has been a lot of fun and I enjoy spending time with you, but I want to make sure that, you know, I want to check in with you because I don't want to date a lot of other people."

• 14:42Speaker 01

  And...

• 14:43Mel Robbins?

  Do you see what I'm saying? Like, you remained powerful in that because you weren't actually looking for me to say, "I like you back." You were looking for clarification on whether or not this was worth your time. And so, that was super important for you, listening to understand the nuance of that.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Massively different.

• 15:03Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Because you're not, you're having a conversation about the allocation of an incredibly valuable thing.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  And you're showing through the conversation how much you value it. "I know what I have to give is incredible." Like, that's the subtext. "I know what I have to offer someone is incredible, so I'm very careful about who I give that to."

• 15:29Speaker 01

  This isn't a "how dare you hook up with me" or "how dare we spend any time together if you weren't in the same" It's like, no, it's not. So quickly, I think a lot of people can lose their power that way because they don't take ownership of the time they've invested.

• 15:45Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Or the ways they've spent time with someone, or even the intimacy. Like, you're an adult. If you want to do something with someone, do it, own it, enjoy it. But if it's no longer working for you, then don't go to resentment about the time you've spent. Instead, just take ownership of, "I know what I've been giving you and what I will continue to give is incredible. I know it's really valuable. I'm deciding whether this continues to be a good investment of all of that time and energy. And if it's not any longer, that's okay. I'm not turning you into the villain."

• 16:21Mel Robbins?

  You're also not turning yourself into the loser. Like, I think here's the thing that's really helpful about Level 1, which is, "Oh, I see that person over there is super attractive, but there's nothing mutual." Level 2, which is this mutual connection and attraction and chemistry. And then, if you want to try to go to Level 3, which is where you have a mutual commitment, that's where you have to have the conversation. And starting to understand for yourself, not where is the other person, but where am I? The second that you start to feel in a relationship where you're giving more than you're comfortable, where you're unsure of where somebody stands, where you're starting to get sketchy about stalking people

• 17:02Mel Robbins?

  in terms of legally on their, you know, were they on, or they are, are they on their hinge? You know when you're doing that. It's time to have the conversation you're avoiding, which is, this is to a point where I gotta be clear about whether or not it's worth me investing energy in. Because I think we all know that point for ourselves, where we tip into either super clingy, insecure, or sort of like resentful, like anger mode. And you don't want to be there. Because it's not the other person's fault that they don't want to give you a commitment. It's your fault if you continue to show up to something that isn't actually good for you.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  And the standard itself can actually be the thing that creates attraction. We ask a lot of questions about how can we create attraction with someone? Well, one of the most amazing ways to create attraction is to have standards. And to live by those standards.

• 17:58Mel Robbins?

  Matthew, I want to take a quick break right now and let everything you've already taught us and shared sink in. And while you're listening to the sponsors, just kind of think about what you're already learning about this four-level framework and reflect on yourself. And when we come back, we're going to talk about why it's so hard to realize that you're not level three even. You're stuck in level two. And this is why it's dangerous. So don't you dare go anywhere, because it would be dangerous for you to not get this information. Stay with us.

• 18:36Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. I'm here with Matthew Hussey. He has been coaching people for 17 years on relationships and has the most successful, number-one-ranked YouTube channel on the topic of love and relationships. So Matthew, I really want to dig deeper into hard conversations, because they're hard to have.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Let me tell you a story, because you're gonna love this, and your audience is gonna love it.

• 18:57Mel Robbins?

  Okay, great.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  This is a story from something my own wife sent to me at a time when I was not the heroic, you know, ultra-giving one in the situation. I was the one who was like all over the place.

• 19:14Mel Robbins?

  Okay. By all over the place, you mean like you were like a player, so you were dating a bunch of people at the same time, or what?

• 19:18Speaker 01

  We were... We had met in London. I'd like literally come back for a couple of weeks to see family. That was where we met. Then I went back to Los Angeles, where I live. We just had had a great time together.

• 19:30Mel Robbins?

  So you were level two?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Very much level two.

• 19:32Mel Robbins?

  Got it. Okay.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Deep level two.

• 19:34Mel Robbins?

  Got it. Well, I don't know what that means, but level two.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Lots and lots of attraction, absolutely no commitment.

• 19:40Mel Robbins?

  Can I just say something?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:41Mel Robbins?

  There is no such thing as deep level two. Let me tell you why. There's only level two.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  You... I mean, this is exactly the lesson.

• 19:48Mel Robbins?

  You know what I'm saying? Like, that's it. Like, you're the...

• 19:49Speaker 01

  This is exactly the lesson.

• 19:50Mel Robbins?

  Right? You're like letting it be something. It's just level frickin' two, man.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Correct. That's exactly right.

• 19:55Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  So I go back to Los Angeles, and we're texting back and forth. We're having some calls. It's still fun, it's still engaging. We're excited to speak to each other. Gradually, I start to fall off.

• 20:09Mel Robbins?

  What does fall off mean?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Like, I am not texting...

• 20:12Mel Robbins?

  Look at the smile. He's like, you dog.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  No, I just, I'm... Day by day, my texts got less frequent. I stopped, so I probably at some point I stopped calling and started only texting. Then the texts are less and less frequent. And then I think, I don't know what it was, a couple of weeks, something went by where we'd already been not texting for a while. Maybe a few days went by or a couple of weeks, I can't remember. Audrey probably remembers. But at a certain point, I sent a message that said, I miss you. She sent me a message I'll never forget. And for every woman out there, take this message and run with it because it is so

• 20:57Speaker 01

  powerful, it's so amazing, and it's word for word, perfect. Now, bear in mind, I just want to stop for a moment. What's the instinct to do in that moment? If you like someone?

• 21:08Mel Robbins?

  I miss you too.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like you, you just rush of blood to the head, nervous system activated. I'm just happy this person reached out and that they're saying something affectionate.

• 21:19Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Like, oh, my God.

• 21:20Mel Robbins?

  And this is for every human being. Like, I don't care how old you are, I don't care like gender, whatever. Like, this is, every one of us has that where if somebody's gone silent and all of a sudden you get that little boop, you're like, there it is.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  And that, what you just said, is why level two is the most dangerous stage. Because the instinct in that moment is to text someone back.

• 21:41Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  To fly to see them, to do whatever we can to be with them. But that instinct might be the most dangerous instinct you have in that moment. So she didn't do that. She sent this message back. She said, hey, I hope you're well. To be honest, when I get a message like this from you, I don't really know what to say. So again, that's like, that first line is like confusion. She's, she's pointing out that there's something at odds with my words and my behavior. So, hey, I hope you're well. To be honest, when you send a message like that, I don't really know what to say. Or I'm not really sure what to say.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  We haven't really felt that close for a while now. And then she put in parentheses rightly or wrongly, this message comes across like a bid for attention. Whoa.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  So if you break down that message. Let's do it. It communicates so much. And this is why I'm not someone who says like, you know, here's a thousand scripts, use them word for word, but you have to understand why language matters because language matters deeply. And if you know why it works, you could say your way, but why does it work? Well, I hope you're well. So there's still warmth to that. It's not like, how dare you? Mm hmm. I hope you're well. Don't wish you any harm. But when you send something like this, and I'm not really sure what to say. Why? Because we haven't really felt that close for a while. So it's a little strange, the fact that we've kind of like stopped talking very much.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  There's the interactions we have are very superficial, very noncommittal. There's not a lot of energy behind them. There's not much thought or intention behind them. They're more and more sparse. And then at the end of all of that, you send, I miss you. That is completely out of sync with everything you have done over the last month or not done.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  We haven't felt that close for a while now. Now that again, is exposing the elephant in the room. Because what most people are hoping for in a situation like that consciously or unconsciously, is that you will not point out the discrepancy between their actions and their words. But you will mirror them.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  That I'll say I miss you and you'll come back and you'll mirror that. It's true. We do. So she's saying, I'm not going to mirror that because that's not where we're at in reality. So I'm shining a giant spotlight on this elephant in the room. So you've got nowhere to hide. And then she said rightly or wrongly. Now rightly or wrongly is very powerful language there because it's also humility. She's not bringing ego into it and she's not flaring up my ego. She's like, I might be wrong. Right. Maybe I've misread this whole situation, but it looks an awful lot like you're not really trying, you don't want anymore, and you want attention right now. Yes. It comes across rightly or wrongly like a bid for attention.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Now, in that moment.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  I'm called out. So what do you do with that information? Well, it depends on the kind of person you're dealing with. Some people in response to that will love bomb you. Especially an unhealthy person is gonna go, now I'm gonna get you. So, oh my god, let me call you right now, blah, blah, blah, charm, charm, charm, charm, charm. Like, let me fly out to see you this weekend. Can you come out to see me? You know, like, goes full charm mode. I'm not gonna, uh, I didn't do that then, but there was a time in my life where I absolutely would have done that.

• 25:32Mel Robbins?

  And just to be clear, that's still in level two. Because you haven't had the conversation, right? About the commitment.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:42Mel Robbins?

  Because they're keeping you in level two. I love how simple this is. That you're either attracted to somebody who, which is admiration, that is not interested in you, or there's this level two dangerous mode, where it is all about the attraction and the game there is to keep you in that lane.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%.

• 26:02Mel Robbins?

  And so you have to know for yourself, which is very clear that your wife Audrey did in that moment, that I'm done with level two. And the fact that you probably were pulling away made her realize she wanted to have something that was more certain with you, if it was gonna continue. And she did the thing that most of us don't do, which is she acted consistently with somebody who no longer wanted to be in level two. She wanted to be with somebody who was willing to go to level three and have the commitment. And she is also smart, and I need every one of you listening to hear me.

• 26:44Mel Robbins?

  You will stay in level two for the rest of your damn life if you're unwilling to have the conversation about level three.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Because no one, no one cares about your time and your life as much as you.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  And expecting them to is a recipe for wasting your life. Mel, so many of my audience are not in their early twenties where it's like, well, I could throw away five years on a person in level two and, you know, plenty of time to go and I deal with people in their thirties, late thirties, early forties. And many of them, their life's greatest dream is to have their own biological family. And they are in level two right now, at risk of sacrificing, for many of them, their biggest goal, their biggest dream in the entire world, for someone who I guarantee

• 27:44Speaker 01

  is either not going to regret having wasted all that time of yours, or even if they do, which many do, when I look back on my life, I regret wasting people's time. I don't have the power to give it back to them.

• 28:00Mel Robbins?

  I really want to dig deeper into hard conversations. So don't you go anywhere. And by the way, please share this episode with people that you love who need this framework. Stay with us.

• 28:18Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. I'm here with Matthew Hussey and I want to thank you. Thank you for sending this episode to people in your life because I know that this information will help absolutely anybody who learns it to improve their relationships and also improve their relationship with themselves. So Matthew, I love that we're talking about this because I have seen too many of my friends literally waste a decade with somebody. And this doesn't have to look like one night stands in dating. This could be somebody that you're living with that doesn't want to get married. That's right. Or who you keep thinking is going to change your mind on having children with you. And you won't have the conversation.

• 29:00Mel Robbins?

  Like, the moving from level two to level three is really about the type of commitment you're looking for.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Level two doesn't just refer to someone who's keeping you in limbo in month three, where they don't want a relationship and you do. It's anyone who can't give you the level of commitment that you're looking for. There are couples that have been together for three years, and one of them deeply wants marriage, deeply wants to have a family, and the other one just cannot make up their mind or says, "I really don't want this." That represents a level of commitment you know you need in order to be happy, that someone else isn't giving you.

• 29:38Mel Robbins?

  Whoa. That's a really important point. Because we've been focusing on dating, but you're basically saying that you could be trapped in level two for years, because you are in a relationship justifying staying because of the attraction or whatever else, but you don't have the commitment that you deeply in your heart want.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:59Mel Robbins?

  Holy cow. Let's keep digging into level two.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Yes, and the hardest conversation that you have to have is the one you have with yourself, where you come to terms with the fact that this conversation that you have out loud with them might be the one that ends the relationship. And so, we're afraid to have a conversation with them, because we haven't had a conversation with ourselves first, about what we're prepared to make peace with, about what is most important to us. In our love lives, and this is a model you can use for any part of your life, but in our love lives, in order to change, in order to get a different result, we have to rewire

• 30:47Speaker 01

  our brain. I put an entire chapter in this new book called "How to Rewire Your Brain." Now, how do you do that? When you've been doing things for a certain way for so long, how do you get to the point where you're actually prepared to do something different? The first thing you have to do is you have to make change absolutely necessary for yourself. Now, one of the things I do is get people to have the conversations with themselves that they've been putting off year after year after year. That conversation might be with a 35-year-old or a 37-year-old, who finally has the conversation with themselves about how important it is to them to have children.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Because it all starts with getting really, really, really honest about that.

• 31:35Mel Robbins?

  How do you make somebody who's in their 30s,

• 31:40Mel Robbins?

  or even late 20s, who is starting to panic about this? How do you coach somebody to have that conversation with themselves? Because we will come in and rationalize, "Oh, they might change. Oh, I have time. Oh, I could just do this. Oh, I could just do that." And there is a biological reality. If you are somebody who's one of your biggest life goals is to have a family of your own, and you know, after coaching people for 17 years, you've seen this window close on people.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  I've seen it close. I've seen the protracted grief that takes place for many years afterwards, that many of them still haven't been able to process.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I've watched the pain. I've had a front-row seat to the most terrible pain that people go through. I had a woman at my retreat who just balled up on the floor and was inconsolable because she had spent 10 years married to a man who always said that he wasn't sure about having children. And year after year after year, she delayed the conversation, not only with him, but with herself, and missed her window biologically. And then he ended up leaving the relationship anyway. And the grief that she felt was profound.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  The conversation starts by truly assessing, "How important is this to me?"

• 33:14Speaker 01

  What is it about this that makes it something that I feel is a non-negotiable for me? At least a non-negotiable that I'm gonna try for, because even for those for whom it's a non-negotiable, we all know, not everyone has it as simple as they think it's going to, and a lot of people find it's impossible.

• 33:31Mel Robbins?

  Well, and I also want to broaden this out, because what you're actually talking about is the level of honesty you have to have with yourself to go from level two to level three, if it's not happening, whether that's dating to moving in, or it is living together to engage, or engaged to married, or whatever, or trying harder in a relationship, that there is this movement that has to be intentional to get you to the commitment phase. And I can see how, if you don't even know what the hell you want, and you're not being honest with yourself, you wouldn't be able to have the conversation in a casual sex situation of saying, hey, I just know myself, and I don't want to put my energy

• 34:13Mel Robbins?

  into something that isn't actually heading somewhere. And so I just need to check in with you, because having a lot of fun, but I know myself, and I prioritize my well-being and my time, and I just need to do the check, the gut check now.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Even to have the conversation lightly and playfully, you need to have a very strong sense of what matters to you, of the path that you're on in life. You have to. Otherwise, you'll never back it up. Anything you do will be a tactic. It won't be a standard.

• 34:48Mel Robbins?

  I think the mistake that a lot of us make is that we look at a person across from us, and we think, even if this isn't up to my standards, I can fix this person, I can twist this person, I can get, we're not thinking this consciously, but if I can get close enough, I can change this. And that is a tactic that will backfire on you.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:12Mel Robbins?

  You've seen it happen over and over again.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  The idea that if I get close enough and try hard enough that they're going to change is a non sequitur. What does that mean? That's a big word. It's a really dangerous assumption to make. I call it the one day wager. I stake my life, my energy, my time, my most precious resources in the world, the ones I can't get back, on the idea that this person is one day going to suddenly change into all of the things I need them to become for me to be happy. The irony is, people can change, but they change through hard conversations.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  And you also find out they can't change through hard conversations because you'll learn, even if they say they're gonna do something, you'll learn whether there's progress or not. And if there's no progress, there's your answer. There's a great Jacob M. Broad quote that goes, "Consider how hard it is to change yourself, and you'll understand how foolish it is to think you can change someone else." Ooh, that's... I wish I said that, because that's a good one. It's just the... It's so true! I want to eat well right now, Mel. Okay. I'm not eating well. Why not? Because we're on the road, and there's so much good food in every city, and we

• 36:37Speaker 01

  have been doing a lot of broadcasting, and I haven't been getting to the gym, and I'm not making excuses, but I kind of am as well. And it's just really, really, really been hard. And when I don't train, I eat badly, and when I eat badly, I then don't feel good. But then I'm in a cycle, and that's kind of the cycle I'm in and have been in for the last week. My relationship with food has been a really challenging one. Food's been an addiction for me for since as long as I can remember. And it has been an extraordinarily difficult thing to fix. Very, very, very, very difficult, and I'm still working on it. It's an ongoing thing. And I want to change that. I'm motivated to change that.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  And anyone who goes to therapy knows this. If you decided to go to therapy, that's an amazing step. Now, all of the work is ahead of you.

• 37:29Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Because you're gonna see things you might wanna change, and it's gonna be really, really difficult to move the needle on those things. If it was easy, you would've done it already. So now take someone who's may not even accept that there's something that needs to be changed. Even if they think there's something that they could change to make the relationship better, they now have to be motivated to do it. And now they have to have the stomach and the resilience and the continued sustained effort to actually go ahead and make that change. That is an extraordinary assumption to make of someone that we are with. Now, can someone change? Yes.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Have you had the conversation with them? Is there progress? Is the progress continuing? You're probably not even close to that level of understanding because right now, you're having the conversation about what's bothering you with your friends and not even with the person.

• 38:34Mel Robbins?

  It's true. I'm in level two. I won't even have that conversation about level three. So definitely not gonna talk about them. Wait, I actually need, I wanna make sure that I get to level four.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:44Mel Robbins?

  Because when you have the hard conversation, and is there a mistake that people make when it comes to level three? Meaning the commitment piece?

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Thinking love is all you need. Love is not all you need.

• 38:58Mel Robbins?

  What do you need?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  You need level four.

• 39:00Mel Robbins?

  What's level four?

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Compatibility.

• 39:03Mel Robbins?

  What is compatibility? And your work?

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Do we work together?

• 39:09Mel Robbins?

  How do you know? Because a lot of people don't know. Like, they, they want it to work together. But how do you know if it works together?

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Well, I think the baseline is, can we get our fundamental needs met in this relationship? There are, I think, lots of luxury items in a relationship, but at the core, can I get my fundamental needs met?

• 39:35Speaker 01

  You have to ask yourself what those things are. What are the things I truly need? Like, a friend of mine always dated dancers. And I said to him, you're married now. I said, you always dated dancers. Does your wife dance? He said, least coordinated person I've ever met. And I was like, so does it bother you? You know, because that was always your preference. And he said, Matt, how much of my life do you think I spend dancing? So I maybe dance once or twice a year. He said, it literally has no bearing on the quality of my marriage. This person is an amazing partner, an amazing mother. We have the best time together. She's my best friend. Those are the things that affect my life every day.

• 40:17Mel Robbins?

  I'm so glad that we're talking about compatibility, because I believe that this is one of those topics that you don't understand compatibility until you meet somebody that you're actually compatible with. And you go, oh, wait a minute. This is so much easier. And when I reflect back on prior relationships, where I realize now, I just wasn't compatible. There may have been a commitment there. We were in level three, but the level four piece, there was no compatibility, even though we wanted to be compatible. And here's how I know. There was always so much friction. Like, everything felt like an effort. There was underlying agitation, whether we're trying to pick a restaurant or making plans on what to do on a Saturday or like those relationships that you find yourself in

• 41:01Mel Robbins?

  where everything that the person does irritates you. That's a sign that you're not compatible. When you're compatible with somebody, it's not that hard. Sure, you fight. Sure, there are things that bother you, but it passes so quickly because there's this energetic match. You know, I'm the kind of person that has massive ADHD and I'm very competitive and hard driving. And the reason why I'm so compatible with my husband is probably because he is a very easygoing.

• 41:34Mel Robbins?

  Very kind kind of person. And if I were with somebody that were more hard driving like me, we'd probably kill each other because there'd be a ton of friction around the energy with us. And so compatibility for me, Matt, really is when it just works. And it's easier to tell when you're not compatible because it's hard. And you're always kind of upset with somebody or walking on eggshells, or you don't think like you can be yourself. And I guess the bottom line is that. I knew when I met Chris, he was the one because I realized, oh, my God, I can be exactly who I am and exactly who I'm not. I don't have to pretend. I don't have to work hard to be somebody different to make this work.

• 42:20Mel Robbins?

  That is what is at the heart of compatibility, that you can be you. And when you find that, you'll know it. Because it'll be easier than any other relationship you've had in the past, because the energy matches.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:33Mel Robbins?

  Matthew, what is your message to someone who is really struggling with valuing themselves inside a relationship?

• 42:42Speaker 01

  We have to love ourselves enough that we would not put anyone in our presence. No one would be the continued recipient of our investment, our energy, our attention, our love, our intimacy, if what we fundamentally want in life is something they cannot give us. That's the essence of self-love. So how does it translate to the relationship with ourselves? Well, there's eight billion people on this earth. Now, all you need to start treating yourself a little better is to realize that if you keep saying you love people or you care about people, that you are a person in the room. It's as simple as that. That's a starting point. But it's actually more important than that.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Of the eight billion people on this earth.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  You are the only one charged with the responsibility of taking care of this one human. You were born and someone said, "You have one job. Take care of this human. That's it." And your only job in this world is to take care of, nurture, stand up for, help this person find happiness, be there for this human. That's it. When you look at it like that, comparison makes no sense anymore. Because you go, "I can't exchange this human. I only get one.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  And my job isn't to judge this human. I only get one, so judgment is irrelevant. My job is just to give the best possible life to this human." That turns self-love into something I knew exactly how to do because I realized, "Oh, I don't need to like myself in order to love myself. Liking myself can come later. Loving myself isn't a feeling. It's an approach. It's a job. It's a verb." Once we understand that, we go, "Why would I let someone who doesn't respect this human anywhere near them?

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Why would I let someone who is making this human feel unsafe or confused about their worth? Or keeps them in limbo? Or picks them up and puts them down, is completely inconsistent with them? Why would I let anyone like that near this human?" The way you stick to these standards is you connect with the fact that even when it's difficult, it's your job to take care of this human. This isn't like a one-time epiphany. It's something that I go through, you know, once a month, once a week sometimes. If I feel disconnected from myself and why I should be loving myself,

• 45:41Speaker 01

  you want this structure laid out in a way you can go through any time you want, which is why I put the entire thing inside my book in a section called "Core Confidence."

• 45:50Mel Robbins?

  A lot of us are crazy critical of the way our parents raised us. Perhaps we should be more critical of how we're raising ourselves.

• 46:00Mel Robbins?

  Matthew Hussey, the new book is Love Life. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. Thank you for pouring so much love into us. And I'll tell you, that Level 4 thing, 1, 2, 3, 4, really changed me. I'd never heard that before. I really, truly love that you shared that with us and everything else. So congratulations on everything that you're doing. Audrey, thank you for sending that badass text back and letting him know where he was and where he stood and standing for yourself, because I think it's a really good blueprint for how you can raise your standards too.

• 46:42Mel Robbins?

  And for you listening, I just want to make sure, in case nobody else tells you, that I tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And a huge part of that is you creating higher standards for how you treat yourself and who you let into your life. And now that you have heard this conversation, you know exactly how to do that. So go do it. I'll talk to you in a few days.

• 47:16Mel Robbins?

  All right, great. Awesome. Matthew.

• 47:24Mel Robbins?

  Share this episode with your friends and stay with us, because I'll be... Oh my God, okay, hold on. And just go boom, boom, boom, boom. There we go. All right, here we go. Great. Okay, let me see, one more thing. Good? Okay, great. Thank you for the coaching, guys.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Really?

• 47:46Mel Robbins?

  Well, I would have been pissed if it was his worst.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  I mean, your standards, you would have been pissed if it was second best.

• 47:54Mel Robbins?

  You know how fucking competitive I am. No, I'm just kidding. And if it wasn't your best, that's on me.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  No, I loved it.

• 48:21Mel Robbins?

  Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Stitcher.