Jocko Underground: Women Joining The Army? | Too Big, Too Heavy For Jiu Jitsu

Problematic director of the team. Applying for a job with massive egos involved. Screen time, and productivity tips. Women in the Army? Good and safe? Or no? Big and heavy in Jiu Jitsu: how to keep everyone safe. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast and here with Echo Charles DC. We got some Q and A to get to. Let's do it.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Advice for the people. That's what I like to call it. For me too, by the way, I'm over here.

• 0:12Jocko Willink?

  Hey, we're getting asked questions. We're figuring stuff out.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Figuring stuff. Yes, sir. Okay. Hi, Jocko and Echo. What's the best way to handle a managing director? This is at work, who is competent, but increasingly disrespectful to board members she views as less knowledgeable?

• 0:30Speaker 01

  My family member and I are on the board of a well financed NGO funded, founded by my grandfather, who passed away less than two years ago. We've reorganized, we're reorganizing now with the help of this managing director. She's full time with her own team. While the board is volunteer and inexperienced in humanitarian aid, but successful in other areas. Recently, the director has lost her temper, shouted at board members, and refused to consider alternatives. Though efficient and hardworking when things go her way, her behavior is problematic. The board meets four times a year and I try to plan coffee meetings with her, but she often doesn't have time and gets defensive when confronted.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  We'd prefer not to change leadership again. Any advice? What to do with this girl?

• 1:20Jocko Willink?

  Okay. You're in a board position. We could talk through the escalation of counseling, which I've talked through many times before. It's in the book Leadership Strategy and Tactics. We could talk through that. How you start off by asking some earnest questions and then maybe you have to escalate a little bit to like, you know, if Echo's late, then the first thing I do is, hey Echo, you use everything okay? And then after that, I say, hey Echo, you were late again. Like this is not, you know, you can't do that. Like I mean, you understand that, right? And you say, yes, I do. And I actually say, hey, if you do this again, I gotta write you up. And you go, no, you don't need to write me up. And you're never late again. Or if you're late again, okay, cool. Then next time I write you up and I explain exactly why you can't be late. And I explain the corrective measures you need to take. And I explain the consequences

• 2:03Jocko Willink?

  that are gonna happen if you're late again. So like, and then hopefully you're never late again. But if you are late again, then I'm gonna execute the consequences that I told you I was gonna execute. So you can see where this is going. So that's called the escalation of counseling. And also, I've also referred to as the escalation of directness because you're getting more and more direct. You know, Echo, if you are late again, I'm going to fire you. See that kind of thing?

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I see what you're saying.

• 2:29Jocko Willink?

  So regardless of gratitude, right? Because other people are waiting.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Sure, potentially.

• 2:36Jocko Willink?

  So that's so that you who the person that wrote this should definitely consider that. Now,

• 2:47Jocko Willink?

  in this situation, you've got a person that's in a senior leadership position. I'm assuming that they're not a young person because she's very experienced in this realm, right? So she's we're not dealing with a 23 year old that just kind of got her first job out of college. And now she's been put in this leadership position. It's not the situation we're dealing with here. She's more experienced than the other people. And she's all she's shouting at board members, losing her temper and refusing to consider other alternatives. I would escalate the directness very quickly, like immediately.

• 3:31Jocko Willink?

  Like if I showed up in a situation and I first meeting or third meeting we have. And this woman is yelling at people and losing her temper and refusing to listen to other alternatives. I this this is how that human is because it's not a 22 year old. This is how that human is. You ever heard that thing like a tiger can't change its stripes?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:53Jocko Willink?

  Now, I can tell you that a tiger or a human can have a traumatic experience that can change the way they behave. You know, they can hit rock bottom is the classic example, right? Oh, you've been drinking all the time. You hit rock bottom, you get divorced, you lose your job, you lose your license. You wake up in the gutter one day and you say, oh, my gosh, I gotta change and you quit drinking. Sometimes people lose their mind in some, you know, a competitive situation. And they realize, oh, my gosh, I've got to like control myself and they can they can change. Maybe they get ejected for the rest of the season, like something like this, right? And they go, oh, my gosh, I gotta change. So the tiger, essentially, if they go through something that impacts them personally,

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  and they have the the the self discovery that they need to change, they can change. But.

• 4:50Jocko Willink?

  If you force try and force that thing and without them recognizing it's not gonna happen. And even sometimes people just can't change. You, I mean, how many people have you known in your life are like, hey, you shouldn't be doing that. And they keep doing it. They ruin their lives.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:01Jocko Willink?

  They ruin their relationship. They get fired from their job. Whatever the case may be, because they couldn't just. Stop talking back. Stop, you know, blaming other people, just whatever it was. They just couldn't do it. So they ruin their lives.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:14Jocko Willink?

  So we all, we know people like that.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 5:16Jocko Willink?

  This happens. So you've got a woman here. That is losing her temper, yelling at people.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 5:24Jocko Willink?

  And not considering other ideas. I don't like this situation at all. So what I would do is I would sit down and I would write it up like basically immediately. Hey, here's what's going on. This is you. This is this behavior I see. We don't do that behavior here. It's not acceptable. If it happens again, you won't be here anymore. If, eh, that's what I would say. I mean, and you, how often do you hear me be in this direct echo Charles?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:47Jocko Willink?

  Very seldom. Very seldom. Why is it? Cause she's in the leadership position. She's a senior person. She's supposed to be experienced.

• 5:56Jocko Willink?

  She's running your stuff, by the way. This is totally wrong. So. I would give her that direct feedback.

• 6:06Jocko Willink?

  And there's a possibility that she leaves. You say you don't want to change leadership. Let me tell you what, you don't want to have this, this psycho. As your leader inside your organization. You don't want that. She's gonna drive everyone else away. You'll end up with a, the, the horrible organization. So I would. Actually write her up, explain to her her shortcomings. Say if I see it again, you're done. And this is not the type of culture we want to have. This is not the type of people we want to have. So. You fix yourself. If I see it again, it's over. And even then, she's probably gonna behave in front of you. She's probably a total tyrant with the other people on her team. So I would be very suspect of this whole situation. That's where I'm at.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Is there, uh, like, you know, and this kind of gets off the top of your head, is there a certain be- behavior or type of behavior that someone can kind of engage in that kind of tells you, hey, this is kind of more who they are than a one-off?

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  Yelling at people?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yelling at-

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  Losing your temper, yelling at people, not listening to other people. These are like three characteristics that are so bad-

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:09Jocko Willink?

  For leaders that I hear them and I'm just, I'm immediately in the write-up mode and like laying down the wall, we don't need you here.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Right. Because yeah, like it almost feels like yelling at people and the temper thing, you know, they seem like they go hand in hand where that's not like a conscious more, seems like anyway. It's not like they're sitting around saying, you know what? If this happens, you know what I'm not just gonna do? I'm just gonna start yelling. That's a good move for me.

• 7:31Jocko Willink?

  They don't think like, oh, I think a good solution here would be for me to, all right, uh, let me get into character. I'm gonna yell.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:37Jocko Willink?

  That's not what's happening.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 7:38Jocko Willink?

  It's true colors.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, true colors.

• 7:41Jocko Willink?

  The true colors are shining through.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. And especially if it's happening on any kind of regular basis, kind of seems like, well, that's just how, straight up.

• 7:49Jocko Willink?

  I also don't like when someone is, uh, when someone denigrates their subordinates, when someone bullies their subordinates, I do not like that.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:01Jocko Willink?

  I do not like that at all.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I dig it.

• 8:03Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, this is just not good.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that denigrating to your subordinates or people that you even, yeah.

• 8:10Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I was in a restaurant the other day with my family.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:14Jocko Willink?

  And the person in the booth next to us-

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:17Jocko Willink?

  Was just being such a jerk. Like, I can't even eat this steak. I, I actually ordered, you know, and he's going back and send it back. I want you to get this back to the kitchen. You tell the chef, this is like that kind of guy.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, yeah, yeah. What's weird is like, I hear, we hear so much about that, how it's like, hey, it's kind of important to treat everyone. It's the same, especially under these circumstances. And a lot of time the restaurant scenario, which is such a common scenario, which is why it's usually the example they give, like how do they treat the waitstaff? You know, it's like literally the example they give all the time. And then it's weird how people nowadays can literally behave like that at the restaurant, you know, like be the-

• 8:53Jocko Willink?

  We all know it's the thing not to do.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 8:56Jocko Willink?

  Anyway, so I was in the booth and it was, uh, my booth was kind of catty cornered or it was a corner booth, let me say. It was a corner booth and then the next booth over was this dude.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:07Jocko Willink?

  Now his back was to me. But I could clearly hear, I mean, he's, the waitress, when she's talking to him is like three feet away from me.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  And he's just being a total jerk.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:17Jocko Willink?

  So she, so she's like, comes to my table next.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:21Jocko Willink?

  Which is one, she takes one lateral step.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:24Jocko Willink?

  She, and then she says, is everything okay here? I, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is absolutely delicious. Thank you so much for the best steak I've had. I mean, I just.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:33Jocko Willink?

  Kind of laid it on, maybe. I laid it on, I didn't lay it on too thick, cause too thick would have been offensive. Like, he would have known.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:39Jocko Willink?

  But I just put it on enough.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:41Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? Didn't matter. He still kept complaining and bitching about everything.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would make sense. That didn't, did you loud talk him? You know, like loud talk, like you kind of like put extras on it to, you know, hopefully he hears it, kind of a thing?

• 9:54Jocko Willink?

  Hmm. Maybe it's, maybe it's, actually, my son did.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:59Jocko Willink?

  He was like, he was hostile towards that individual, you know? Cause dude, like this poor freaking waitress, you know what I mean?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:09Jocko Willink?

  She's a freaking single mom, she's busting her ass. She didn't make the freaking steak.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Actually, when you think about it, really, the waitress, it's like, maybe she's not a single mom, maybe, maybe she doesn't care at all. It's, I mean, in, in my opinion, the other side of that, which is even more significant, is like, bro, what is the guy? What's he thinking? Kind of like, hey, you know, when I do this, they're really gonna think that I'm freaking high status, or my standards are just so high, like, I don't know what they're, what they're going for with that.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  Uh, yeah. My family seems to think that if you act like that, you're 100% getting spit in your food.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:44Jocko Willink?

  But it's 100%.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Bruh, that's what I thought from when I was young. That's why I was always nervous. I was like, bro, you're gonna send that back and say it's not good enough? So send it back where I can't see it? And they're gonna, bro, those guys are gonna be so mad at you for that stuff. Bruh, just suck it up, man.

• 10:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's what I'm doing, man. Yeah, but so, I think we see some tiger stripes here. That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen. Go to JacoUnderground.com and subscribe and we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors and we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more

• 11:37Jocko Willink?

  direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's JacoUnderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.