Pod Insights Know Thyself E174 - Lucy Hale: Sobriety, Self-Worth & Rebuilding From the Inside Out About this episode Lucy Hale joins me for a deeply honest conversation about sobriety, identity, childhood wounds, fame, intuition, and learning to finally feel at home within yourself. Known globally as a singer and actress, Lucy opens up about the parts of her journey most people never see: the fear beneath early success, the alcoholism that followed her from childhood, the spiritual intervention that changed her life, and the inner work she’s committed to since.
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00:00 Intro: Lucy Hale
03:27 What do you attribute your ambition to?
04:49 Alcoholism
14:23 Hitting rock bottom
19:33 Finding meaning in yourself
27:59 Old Lucy vs New Lucy
33:30 Ad: Boncharge
35:28 How has your connection with yourself revealed new insights?
44:40 How do you navigate being in the public eye and staying true to yourself?
47:26 What are you getting intuitively about the next chapter of your life?
50:49 Ad: Mudwtr
51:57 How do you handle rejection as an actor?
54:34 From your young age, what called you to being in this line of work?
57:12 Is there a moment that stood out to you that said "I made it"?
59:51 Pretty Little Liars
1:05:54 What would you say to past Lucy?
1:08:01 Was taking responsibility of your life what shifted it all for you?
1:12:37 How do you view your sense of spirituality?
1:19:48 What is your relationship to boredom?
1:23:00 How has the definition of beauty evolved for you?
1:28:56 What does prayer look like to you?
1:29:51 Being 36 and the biological clock
1:34:46 Closing thoughts - Lucy's masculine vs feminine side
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Episode Resources:
https://www.instagram.com/lucyhale/
https://www.instagram.com/thelightdwellers/
https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/
https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/
https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast
https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com
Transcript 16,326 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 All right, buckle up. Are you ready? I was struggling well before I had any sort of fame or success. Alcohol is not the problem. Alcohol was my solution to my problem. Until I hit a really big low and I knew I was gonna die. Now I'm like, wow. It's so crazy to me to think that the most painful moments in my life were my biggest gift. But it got to the point where when I moved to LA and started finding success in acting, it was the biggest show in the world. But at the time, I didn't know that. No one wants to hear about an actor on a successful TV show struggling.
0:43 Speaker 00 I had to learn how to be in solitude. But if I zoom out, we do hold all the power. And we're taught that we don't. It all starts in your mind. You can't step into a new chapter when you're clinging on to an old one. It's uncomfortable, but obviously worth it.
1:08 André Duqum? Hi Lucy.
1:09 Speaker 00 Hi.
1:11 André Duqum? So it's been really fascinating to see your journey over the past few years, how you've been sharing your story so authentically. A lot of people know you as a singer, as an actress. You work with Pretty Little Liars and beyond. And I've really just appreciated the insight you've given people into the ups and downs, the trials, the triumphs of all of your journey. And I'm just curious how, in your words, you describe the chapter of life you've been in the past few years?
1:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, talk about a pivot. I never in a million years would have thought that I would be so at home with myself that I could have these conversations or that, yeah, I guess that it would come so natural to me. I think the phase of life I'm in now, I mean, it's definitely the most at peace I've ever felt. I'm not saying I'm 100% sure of who I am, but I'm really close to that. And I feel like almost in ways, my life is just starting. I think...
2:16 Speaker 00 I grew up really quickly. I mean, even before I moved to LA, I always felt, you know, when people reflect on their childhood and there's a lot of happy, joyous memories, like, I always felt very serious. I always felt like I was here to do something really important. And I think when I moved to LA and started finding success in acting, I was like, okay, that was the important thing that I needed to do. And then all of the important things kind of left me
2:47 Speaker 00 not feeling empty, but I always knew that there was more I was here to do. And I'm sure we'll talk about my journey with everything, but because of the series of events I've gone through, it really pushed me to get to know myself. And that means like, knowing all parts of myself, because I avoided it. Like, it was my full-time job for a long time. And so I guess this chapter of life is me being me, finally.
3:21 André Duqum? Nice to meet you.
3:22 Speaker 00 Nice to meet you, too. Your place is lovely.
3:26 André Duqum? No, it's, it's, it's good to meet you in this moment, in this chapter of your life. But I'm just curious to back up a bit, because you mentioned this like innate sense of not like just seriousness, but like feeling like you're set for a path. And you had this big dream, these big dreams and ambitions from a young age. Do you, what do you attribute that to, if anything?
3:47 Speaker 00 I mean, if you believe in past lives, I think it's definitely tied into my
3:55 Speaker 00 karma. I, I think I've always felt very
4:02 Speaker 00 in tune with like reading the room. And I've always had like big emotions and I always, I don't know if everyone feels this way, but I've always just felt like I, I was experiencing life on this like intense level and I didn't really know why. Like, I, I would always tell my mom when I was struggling with certain things, I would always explain it as like, this just feels so old. And, and I, so I definitely believe it has to do with other lifetimes. And
4:32 Speaker 00 yeah, and just
4:35 Speaker 00 Coming to terms with that, and I forget the other part of the question you just asked. But, but I do, I mean, long story short, I equate it with a past life and just like what my soul really came here to do.
4:50 André Duqum? It's interesting because it seems like, and I've heard you spoke to many times, how this like innate sense of sensitivity and how you feel things very deeply. And I think anybody who's in the arts innately, like the work is being connected with yourself and how you feel. And there can be that, but then also a level of intensity that we don't know how to deal with for whatever reason. And your journey through sobriety, which is like almost four years now.
5:14 Speaker 00 Almost, yeah.
5:15 André Duqum? Congratulations.
5:16 Speaker 00 Thank you.
5:17 André Duqum? What was that like? And what was alcoholism and these difficulties that you were experiencing? What was it solving for you?
5:26 Speaker 00 All right, buckle up. Are you ready? I think a lot of people assume my drinking escalated because I'm a Hollywood actress, right? Like, it sounds like such a cliche, but I was struggling well before I had any sort of fame or success. Like, I, like, my early experiences drinking were always negative. They were always bad. I look back and all of the signs were there. And I also had voices in my head growing up from people in my family telling me that alcoholism runs in my family. And I'm sure you've talked to a lot of people that, like, if we believe something, it's
6:11 Speaker 00 going to come true. So I'm not saying that it's not in my blood. It might be, but it also was kind of lurking around me my entire life.
6:22 Speaker 00 You know, and then moved to LA and was living on my own quite young and growing up quickly and booked Pretty Little Liars and started finding success and was on top of the world. And I had everything I thought I wanted and, and I wasn't happy. I wasn't as fulfilled as I thought I would be. And so I think Initially, alcohol was fun for me because it shut off my brain. I could go out and I felt like I could just be myself or be a version of myself that I thought was more fun or more acceptable. So I think it actually started because it eased my social anxiety a little bit.
7:06 Speaker 00 And I've always kind of had this thing where I wanted everyone to look at me. And if people would look at me, I'd be like, why are you looking at me? So it was kind of like, I couldn't quite figure out who I was. I had no identity. And mind you, I was young. But I think alcohol was like this, gave me superpowers, I felt like. And then it just progressively got darker and worse and worse. And, you know, and even when people would tell me how I would behave or how bad things went, I wouldn't care at first because I kind of thought I was invincible for a lot of my life. And it was like a good friend to me.
7:49 Speaker 00 Alcohol really felt like a friend to me. I know that sounds ridiculous to say out loud, but it was the only thing I had found that gave me some sort of mental peace. And, you know, a lot of things have happened. I mean, we'd be here all day if I told you the entire journey. But I went through many phases of trying to get help. Many phases. I mean, and this is spanning the course of like 12 years. Because it got to a point many times in my twenties where it was a little bit dangerous.
8:32 Speaker 00 And I had a couple of wake up calls where I was like, I feel like I need to change my life, but I just wasn't ready. And I wasn't ready to give it up. I wasn't ready to give up this friend I found in alcohol. Because I knew that if I got sober...
8:53 Speaker 00 It wasn't even really giving up alcohol. It was that I was gonna have to finally confront myself and confront things that really brought a lot of pain. I was gonna have to confront my pain, essentially. And, uh, yeah, I mean, alcohol is sneaky, I think, for a lot of people. I mean, it's everywhere. It's, a lot of people can drink moderately and socially and normally. And I always wanna make it clear, like, alcohol is not the problem. Alcohol was my solution to my problem. And, um, until it wasn't. Until I, I realized,
9:35 Speaker 00 you know, almost four years ago, I hit a really big low and I knew I was gonna die. I mean, very, very simply put, like, I knew if I didn't change my life, not only was I gonna lose everything, like, that was obvious to me. I had already started to lose things and I had projected my pain onto other people for so long.
9:56 Speaker 00 But it got to the point where, like, I kinda had a spiritual intervention and knew that if I didn't really take it seriously, like, it would be, it wouldn't be great, so.
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10:42 Speaker 00 I think that was initially your question of what alcohol did for me. It, it just eased my mind and I still deal with that. Like, I, my mind is loud a lot of the time and, and that's not really unique to me, but I've had to really get clever on how to kinda use all the mental energy I have, because I have a lot of it, but like... And I also think my tolerance for discomfort is a lot higher because that normally I'd get uncomfortable and the first thing I'd reach for is like a way to numb out or escape. So, and I still do that in other ways through like social media or whatever. Like we all have ways that we numb out, but I'm definitely on a better track.
11:23 André Duqum? So if you like overview, kind of like a timeline of when did you fir- how old were you when you first booked Pretty Little Liars? Like your first big gig?
11:32 Speaker 00 So my first big gig I booked when I was 18, but Pretty Little Liars I booked when I was almost 20.
11:40 André Duqum? Okay.
11:41 Speaker 00 And I, yeah.
11:42 André Duqum? And that was like an eight year journey-ish?
11:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
11:45 André Duqum? And I could just, it's so hard to, I guess, have context for what it means to be growing up as a young person in their early twenties and like figuring out your own identity amidst a sea of projections and a society that expects a certain thing from a, from a young woman. And did you feel like that pressure added to your sense of dysregulation that led you kind of to seek these different coping mechanisms?
12:13 Speaker 00 It definitely didn't help. But you know, if I zoom out, there's no doubt in my mind, like my soul had that planned for me, right? Like, I don't think it's accidental that I fell into a career space that's going to make it really hard to be mentally and emotionally healthy. Because I know so many people who struggle in this way or have struggled in this way. And, and even for people who aren't in my industry, like society, what we read, what we watch, social media, there's just so much out there that dysregulates us and pulls us further from who we inherently are.
12:58 Speaker 00 But yeah, I mean, making a lot of money young, being on a very popular TV show, while trying to figure out who you are while struggling with alcoholism, like it was kind of a perfect storm. But I mean, it was all I knew. I didn't, I definitely knew. My life was a little different than the people around me. Like, I always had awareness of how bad my drinking was. Like, I was never naive to it. I just didn't want to stop because I didn't want to face myself. But now, I feel like there's such a shift with alcohol in general.
13:41 Speaker 00 Maybe it's just because I've grown up and I'm sober, but it feels like people are examining their relationship to it more. I think people just want to feel better. And I think that that's amazing. And now, it's easy to be in my industry and not drink. Like, I love going to an event or a party and like connecting with a few people and then being like, "Bye." Like, I know my time to exit.
14:09 Speaker 00 But I really, you know, I look back at my younger self and it could have gone a lot worse. And I know I really was doing my best, even when it looked really bad and looked really chaotic and it was so painful. Like, I didn't even, there were like mornings, I just like, I was like, "How do I actually get through the day?" I would just be paralyzed with anxiety and depression.
14:32 Speaker 00 But I did it. And, you know, I know that that's not just because of me. I know I've had support from,
14:41 Speaker 00 you know, my whole team up there. I definitely didn't get through it by myself. And, you know, the people in my life as well have been such pillars of strength for me.
14:54 André Duqum? You mentioned that there was one or potentially many, like, rock bottom moments where it was very pivotal and like, something absolutely has to change.
15:03 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
15:04 André Duqum? What was the moment where it actually, like, you really believed that, knew that, and you changed your behavior? Like, what was the, if there was one?
15:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, there were so many, not little moments, they were big moments of whether it be ruining a relationship that really meant a lot to me or hurting someone that meant a lot to me or losing out on a job or... Like, there's so many moments like that that I think definitely were pushing me towards making the decision. But, I mean, the time when I got sober, it was January, almost four years ago, I...
15:46 Speaker 00 Like, nothing really massive or bad happened, but it was just...
15:56 Speaker 00 I had sobered up and was flying home and just had this knowing that I had one more try. It wasn't even...
16:09 Speaker 00 This is the right space to talk about it. I heard a voice in my head, which I guess was God or my higher self or, you know, my angels, whatever. And I heard, "We're giving you another choice." Because there were so many moments when I
16:28 Speaker 00 truly didn't know how I was coming out of these situations okay.
16:35 Speaker 00 And I heard that voice. I got home. I started a program and I stuck to it and I never looked back. And when I tell you, I've never even thought about drinking again. And it doesn't mean I don't work at it. It doesn't mean that I've bypassed my pain. I've really had to take a good look at myself and the things I've been through and my patterns. And I dove in. I dove in. But because of... It's almost like there was a spiritual exchange where I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna change my life around." It's almost like the need for alcohol went away. I haven't even been close to drinking again. And that, to me, is a miracle.
17:20 Speaker 00 It's a miracle because I had relapsed hundreds of times. Hundreds of times. And so, it didn't make sense to me that physiologically that could just shift.
17:35 Speaker 00 Which is great. It's been a great trade-off.
17:38 André Duqum? So, do you just attribute that to the right time, the right place, when it needed to happen? Because the peaks and troughs, the ups and downs of people battling their own addictions, for whatever reason, there was that moment when you actually were able to make the difference?
17:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think I was just ready. I think I was finally ready. And I know a lot of people who've gotten sober the first time and they've been sober 20 years. And that's amazing. That is possible. But a lot of people I know relapse is a huge part of...
18:15 Speaker 00 Their story. And I think that it's important if for anyone that's listening that is dealing with this, like my relapses actually made me a lot stronger. Like, I remember when it would happen in my early twenties and I would just be like drowning in shame that I had, you know, gone down this path again. But then I, now I look back at each of those moments and it just like gave me so much resilience. Like, I feel like now, because of all of that, I feel like anything could come my way and I know I could handle it and I know that I can handle it sober and clear headed. And also sobriety to me isn't just about substance.
18:58 Speaker 00 Sobriety is like owning your shit, you know? It's like emotionally going deep, it's holding yourself accountable. It is like in certain programs, they say like cleaning up your side of the street. It's really like knowing who to apologize to. It's, it's like fact checking your life every day and going, okay, how can I try this better tomorrow? And it's taught me a lot about self compassion and self love and self respect. So I don't even really like to use the word sober because there's so much that comes along with that as well. And I don't love labels these days.
19:43 Speaker 00 I feel like they can be really limiting. I just choose not to drink alcohol or take drugs because I want to feel my best. I want to show up my best every single day. I want to fulfill my purpose and I just have so much more, there's so much more meaning in my life now and I wouldn't give that up for anything.
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20:33 André Duqum? Talk to me about that. What's like
20:34 Speaker 00 Okay.
20:35 André Duqum? Your, your connection with yourself, like at this, at this point, because
20:41 André Duqum? It's one thing that can be really hard to try to stop bad behaviors. But when you replace it with things that are really supporting your connection with yourself and then the relationships that nourish them and the accountability systems that lead you to the point where you feel like you're really happy with the trajectory you're on. The path that you're on feels like this is a lot more in alignment with you. So, two parts. One is like, what are those practices? What are those things that you kind of instilled like since going sober? And then talk to me, like, how do you feel? Like, how do you feel now?
21:16 Speaker 00 Okay, so the practices and things that I do. I mean, I definitely went through a phase where, and I think this is also why I put off getting sober for so long. I knew that my life was gonna have to completely shift. Everything was gonna have to change. It was like new environments, new people, new thought patterns, everything. Because if I kept hanging around the same people or going to the same places, like you are who you surround yourself with. So I knew that I was gonna have to do some deep house cleaning, if you will. And so there was, and I'm still kind of in that, but more so with like my beliefs and patterns and things that are so ingrained in me from when I was like a kid. I'm still like fine tuning all that.
22:00 Speaker 00 But so initially it was that. It was like, okay, I really want to surround myself with people who leave me better. I want to make them feel better and I want the people in my life to uplift my life. And I have that. I have really, my circle is small, but I have really great friends. I had to, I mean, honestly, the, I guess you could call it a practice. I had to learn how to be in solitude because I...
22:31 Speaker 00 Your girl can distract. I can distract like no other. I can spend money. I can be on my phone. Whatever. Like, I, and I, I've had to learn how to be okay being uncomfortable, pausing, not always reacting. I can be a very reactive person because that gives me some sense of control. And if I don't have control, I feel, you know, crazy. But yeah, I think it's just, you know, of course, there's like meditation and, and all the things and I, and I do those. I do, I have a prayer practice and a meditation practice. But really, I've
23:08 Speaker 00 found the most growth when I'm confronted with a challenge or conflict with someone, because I, I do believe that it's an internal, what do they call it? Like, inside-out world? So like, if I'm being confronted with something that's really intense, I know that that's just a reflection of something that I'm dealing with. And so, I think it's just like drowning out the noise and just, and getting more in tune with my intuition. And that looks different for everyone. But for me, it really is, I need time alone. Because my life, I'm
23:49 Speaker 00 surrounded by a lot of things, a lot of the time. And there's no possible way for me to know how I actually feel until I kind of like, quiet all that out. But I'm also in the point, and I guess this ties into your second question. I keep seeing these things online where it's like, the most spiritual thing you can do is have fun. Because I always thought that if I got my life together, and I got sober, that I was gonna be this really boring person. And I still have to fight that sometimes, where I'm like, oh, do people like hanging out with me? Am I fun? Am I, do they think I'm boring? But that's just a limiting belief that I have. And I am in a place in my life where I am being like, more silly and going to do fun things. And I feel like, living a joyous life.
24:37 Speaker 00 That's where you attract everything. Like, that's where you're gonna attract the right people. And like, from that sort of headspace, you're gonna attract the right jobs when you're like, living from childlike joy. So I'm trying to do that most of the time. And that looks different on a day-to-day basis. But these days, the thing is, I don't wanna say I'm cursed with this, but like, I always have the little monkey on my shoulder that I worry about a lot of things. And I don't necessarily, and I try not to label worry as bad, because I think that worry is also my ambition and drive, and it keeps me, pushing me forward.
25:19 Speaker 00 It can be really annoying at times. Sometimes I just want to, it's like that phrase, ignorance is bliss. But like, I chose this path, and I'm always gonna keep choosing myself and wanting to learn more and grow more. And what comes with that is just kind of the little nagging monkey sometimes. But, but overall, these days, I feel pretty grounded. I feel pretty happy and, um, and excited. I think there's also like, I feel more inspired than I have in the last couple of years. And I feel ready. And by that, I mean, I know I'm starting a new chapter of my life, and I feel ready for that,
26:03 Speaker 00 which is to be safe in my own body, or to feel safe in my own body in my decisions and choices is just a really calming feeling.
26:14 André Duqum? How do you describe that distinction between like, living from that place of childlike joy and, and happiness, which can have like, more of a push and pull feeling? Like, sometimes it's there, sometimes it alludes to.
26:25 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, I think I've also learned that, and I've always been this way. Like, I have.
26:34 Speaker 00 Big feelings and big moods. And I don't want to call it like mood swings because it's not chaotic. It's not erratic, I mean. But like, my mood really depends on the day. And I used to judge, like if I was feeling low energy or sad, I would be really hard on myself and be like, well, you need to be happy. Like, why are you not happy? And that obviously doesn't work. That just makes you feel worse.
27:02 Speaker 00 But I found a lot of peace in that, actually, just like, accepting what is. And it doesn't mean wallowing in it. It doesn't mean, you know, making that an identity and like, playing the victim. But like, we're allowed to have bad days. We're allowed to feel sad. I think the hardest one for me to grapple with has been anger. Because I repressed a lot of anger a lot of my life. And just like, finding healthy outlets for anger.
27:29 André Duqum? Do you have? What is that?
27:31 Speaker 00 What is my anger?
27:32 André Duqum? No, like, the health expression.
27:34 Speaker 00 No, do you? Because I need some, I need some. I, I, writing, I like to write. I really love, um, healthy conflict conversation. But only with the right people. You know, like, being physically active is great because that's like, actual energy you're releasing. No, I think I, I'm still figuring that one out because maybe it's just different for women. Like, we, though, at least the women I, I know, like, it's harder for us to be an angry woman, just because, out of fear of being labeled as difficult or whatever. Crazy, yeah.
28:18 Speaker 00 I'm okay being called crazy, but, yeah. And then, I don't know what I was talking about before that. What was I answering? Oh, happiness and joy.
28:29 André Duqum? How could we forget about happiness and joy?
28:31 Speaker 00 How could we forget? Because I'm on to anger. No, I think. I think joy, to me, like the definition of joy is just being really present. And I didn't know how to be really present a lot of my life. It's also still something that I'm figuring out, but yeah, just like being in the moment, whatever that is, whether it's in this conversation or on a drive or whatever it is.
28:59 André Duqum? I don't think a lot of people talk about the transition, like the gray area between your old life and your new one, like the relationships and the engagements and environments that you outgrow. And I'm just curious how you navigated that process.
29:16 Speaker 00 Oof, I posted something the other day about that, that you can't step into a new chapter when you're clinging on to an old one. That's hard. That's where the pain is, and that is like real grief. And so in my life, I knew, I made the conscious choice that I wanted to like go to my highest timeline. And I say that every morning. I'm like, introduce me to the people, places and things that are going to put me on my highest timeline. That's what I want. And I know with that will come loss, because anything that's not meeting me there, it's kind of in my way and it's gotta, it's gotta leave. And in that lies a lot of loneliness. Like the last couple of years of my life have been incredibly lonely.
30:00 Speaker 00 And it's not to say I haven't had good people around me. I have. But that path can be, not isolating. I think there's a difference between isolation and loneliness. But you know, not everyone's on that path. And I've found it a little more challenging, I guess, to connect with like-minded people. So, but it's worth it, you know, it's worth it. I wouldn't change it for anything. I wouldn't go back to my old way of living for anything. Even though I have so much gratitude for that time in my life,
30:41 Speaker 00 it like helped me build out this toolbox of, you know, it like gave me all my little superpowers and I'm really grateful for that.
30:53 Speaker 00 But yeah, I guess people don't really talk about the loneliness that comes with choosing a better life. Because guess what? A lot of people don't want you to get better. A lot of people want you to stay small. Because it serves them. Like, you really find out who...
31:12 Speaker 00 Not who loves you, because I believe there's love everywhere. But I guess you find out the people that are really meant for you when you set boundaries for yourself. And when people respect that. And, you know, I've had people in my life that have unfortunately not really understood the person I am now. I feel further away from certain people in my life than ever, even though I know I'm doing what's best for me.
31:40 Speaker 00 Not everyone understands that. And that's okay. And, um...
31:48 Speaker 00 And that's how I know that I...
31:51 Speaker 00 I think there's a lot of strength in that. Knowing that I'm doing what's best for me, even though it means I might not feel as connected to people that I love a lot. And there are still ways to connect with them. But I'm not willing to play small or go back to a certain lifestyle. It's just not... It's not an option for me. Yeah.
32:15 André Duqum? Yeah, I feel like it's so important just to, like, reclaim your no and where your boundaries are of who is for you and who's not for you. And I think it obviously can be a messy process, like discerning where that line is. Because I know people have reached out and like have sent in questions for this podcast and just in community. Like, it is a thing a lot of people experience when they start to grow and they have a new level of awareness and their old life and relationships are just not in a match to who they're becoming.
32:44 Speaker 00 Yeah.
32:44 André Duqum? It's a painful push and pull because you, on one hand, don't want to feel like you're leaving people behind. But also, you need to, like, spend time with people and energies that are going to foster who you want to become.
32:55 Speaker 00 Exactly. And I also think it's made me realize how much of a people pleaser I was for most of my life. Because I would, if people needed me to be...
33:07 Speaker 00 The nice version, I would do that. Or if people needed me to bend over backwards for them, I would do that, even at the expense of myself. And so when I finally started choosing myself and what was best for me and like, actually being like, no, this is how I feel and this is what I want. Like, I didn't think I was deserving of what I wanted and needed, so I wouldn't talk about it. And that was like poison to me. That was why I was drinking ultimately is that I felt like I didn't have an identity, or I did have an identity and I wasn't expressing that. And when you don't express yourself like that, that's where a lot of problems will arise, as I'm sure you know.
33:48 Speaker 00 But yeah, I've had to get really okay with maybe people not liking me or people not understanding me.
34:03 Speaker 00 Because I feel like I know who I am. I know my heart. I know my intentions and I know where I'm going and I know how I want to feel. And I just like am laser focused on that. And like, that doesn't mean being a bad person and, you know, not communicating with people. I think it's just, I've learned how to properly express my needs and wants for the first time in my life.
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35:36 André Duqum? Yeah, I think we have this like conflation that like love is this sort of docile thing, you know, and some of the most powerful forms of love are extremely fierce and like holding a boundary and anger can be a force of holding a boundary for protecting what you love. And yeah, so it feels like oftentimes it can feel counterintuitive, but the most loving thing that we could do is actually say no, hold the boundaries, honor, honor what we need for ourselves. Otherwise, we're not going to be able to fully show up the way we want to.
36:09 Speaker 00 I know. Can you imagine a world where we all were honoring ourselves? It feels like it would be chaotic, but maybe that would be a peaceful world. I don't know.
36:19 André Duqum? Yeah, I'm sure a lot would fall away, but like, yeah, the authentic connections of like, yeah, you know, what's meant for everybody would feel like fall into place.
36:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, definitely.
36:29 André Duqum? Yeah. What has been coming online for you? Then you spoke to a bit of your intuition and like your new sense of self and discovering, and of course, it's a practice and there's more to learn and more to come. But over the past four years, how has your connection with yourself revealed to you like new insights, new gifts, your ability to listen to your intuition, like what's been coming up for you on the other side of it?
36:52 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, I think the fog is still kind of clearing. And it really is like when I was a kid, I had like razor sharp intuition, like borderline some psychic stuff like, and I think a lot of kids do, a lot of children do. And we just like write it off as, oh, they're just, you know, talking to their imaginary friend in the backyard. It's like, no, they're actually probably talking to someone. And then, you know, it faded away. But I think just like getting, not that I'm psychic, but like I, my intuition is strong about people, about places. I, I'm questioning the world around me in a
37:34 Speaker 00 way that I never have. And I think that's healthy. Like I, I want to know more. I'm asking more questions. Like I, my connection with God, spirit, source, whatever you want to call it, is, is, is back. Not that that ever left me. I think I definitely cut that off for a while because it.
38:00 Speaker 00 I don't want to say it overwhelms me, but I knew that if I could just pray out loud and connect with God, that there would be help and guidance there. And for some reason, I just avoided that for a long time. So the connection's back, which is exciting. My creativity is on a level that I haven't ever experienced. I think as an actor,
38:30 Speaker 00 you know, our job is to share the human experience in the best way we can through the roles that we do. And it's a miracle I even could act at all in my twenties because I was so avoiding myself. And now I've experienced life. I've confronted things. I've just have much more life experience. It's only made me a better actor. And that's exciting because I love what I do. I feel very relieved that after all of this, I still love what I do. And so that's great. What else has changed? I mean, how I treat people is different. I think, I mean, we all probably know this, when we treat others well, it
39:15 Speaker 00 means we're typically treating ourselves well. And because I know how to nurture myself in a better way, I'm only able to show up for people in a more authentic way. Doesn't mean I'm over giving. It doesn't mean, not in a people pleasing way, but like, I really can show up for my people. And that's a really good feeling. And then there's the purpose that I've found. I think a lot of my life, I, it's not to say I didn't love what I was doing, but it always just felt like I was coming up a little short. I was like, oh, but this can't be it. There's got to be like more to it. And that all shifted, really,
40:00 Speaker 00 when I started speaking about everything. Something clicked where I was like, oh, maybe that is a part of my purpose now. Talking about it, having these conversations, you know, the people, people I've talked to online, people even have come up on the street, have like, talked about how what I've said has connected with them. And
40:27 Speaker 00 Like if that can inspire them to then go have another conversation about it, like that's what really matters. And like, I don't know why I struggled with all of this stuff,
40:39 Speaker 00 but that might be why. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
40:44 Speaker 00 Because I don't think we go through pain just to, just because God hates us or some like, no, we go through pain because that becomes our wisdom that we share to other people.
40:56 Speaker 00 And I, I lived in a victim mentality for a long time. But now I'm like, wow. It's so crazy to me to think that the most painful moments in my life were my biggest gift. Because now I'm on the other side of it and I can talk about it and I can just share what I've been through. It might not be, might not appeal to everyone. It might not make sense to everyone. And it definitely,
41:22 Speaker 00 everyone's journey is very specific, but
41:27 Speaker 00 it feels like I'm on a path to something and I'm just gonna keep talking my way through the path.
41:37 André Duqum? It's so funny because like, we all yearn for being connected with obviously ourselves and those around us. And it feels like we're often under the presumption that the best way to do that is to perform and put on the best version of ourselves. But like, you're speaking to as you've shown your real raw journey the past few years, that's what's actually connected with people the most.
41:59 Speaker 00 Which is crazy, which is, sorry, go ahead.
42:02 André Duqum? Yeah, no, it's just paradoxical, right? Because it's like, but it's fascinating and revealing into like the insight into the nature of how vulnerability connects us. And it's just, it's a refreshing reminder, especially as somebody who has such a big platform and has millions of people looking up to them. Like, I'm just, I'm proud of you for like so courageously sharing that. Because I know, and I'm sure it has felt pretty scary at times.
42:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, it still does.
42:31 Speaker 00 But it's so interesting you say that because I spent so many years trying to be.
42:38 Speaker 00 And it wasn't even that people were pressuring me. I was putting pressure on myself to be. There was like this perfectionism thing. And all under perfectionism is just like an unworthiness, I think. And unworthiness is. I felt like I couldn't just show up as me with my baggage and all and be loved and be worthy of love. But like you said, when we show up with truth, people connect with that and people respect that. And, and I think that that is really powerful and, and, and to be able to show up, whether, whether you call it vulnerability or truth, whatever, to be able to show up as me.
43:23 Speaker 00 And to be maybe not received by everyone because I've had to let go of. Everyone like me, but I. To just show up as me and to, to be okay with whatever people give me is, is a really great place to be in.
43:41 André Duqum? Have you noticed that the more that you kind of source that love from self, the need to try to garner it from other people's goes down?
43:50 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah, 100%. And there is truth to that. I definitely think unless someone's figured it out, there will always be a little bit of wanting to be. Not even liked, but I, I want to connect with people and I hope that whatever I say does connect with people, whether it's through TV and film, or whether it's through podcasts, or something I'm saying online, like, yeah, of course I want people to like that or connect with it, but the more I'm making authentic choices for myself, that inherently just feels so true and right that it's almost like you block out whatever negativity is coming your way.
44:35 Speaker 00 So I haven't fully figured that one out yet. And it's obviously.
44:42 Speaker 00 It's tricky in the public eye to not care. Like, I do care, and I think that's okay. But if people don't like me because of what I'm saying, which is my truth, that's not my problem.
44:56 André Duqum? Yeah.
44:57 Speaker 00 And ultimately, if it's bothering you, I've still done a good job because it's showing someone something, right? Because I believe that anything that triggers me in someone else, that's a mirror to me. Like, okay, let me get curious about that. Why does that bother me? Why does what they say really get under my skin? Is it about them? No, it's something within me. And so I've had to realize, like, either way, it's fine.
45:24 André Duqum? Yeah.
45:25 Speaker 00 And I don't, I already said this earlier, but like, I wasn't, I wasn't put here to be small or to be quiet. Like, I am going to talk about what I believe. I am going to talk about my story, and I'm going to be myself. And I hope that encourages other people to do the same.
45:42 André Duqum? I've always thought of like fame as kind of walking through this like hallway of distortion mirrors. Like, you ever go to those like carnivals where there's like those mirrors that like distort your body into like really big or skinny or whatever? I'm just curious, as like somebody whose identity is being shaped from a young age, and you have all of these, you know, projections from the outside in, and we have this part of us that's hardwired, that wants to be a part of the tribe and fit in and wants to be like, like, it's okay to care about that and to acknowledge that, and I appreciate that. And now, at this stage of your life, as you've grown, how do you navigate and discern being in the public eye, staying true to yourself, and not contorting yourself for more validation?
46:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I am in that place in my life,
46:34 Speaker 00 in my industry, online. I'm like, because a lot of it just feels empty to me. And I'm like, and I don't mean that in a judgmental way to anyone or anything. I just am looking for more. And so now, I'm kind of in this place of like, okay, how can I bring more of me to my industry and what I do?
47:08 Speaker 00 I mean, it's changed a lot. Like, I, there are parts of my job that come with the territory, and I know that. And not everything has to be 100% aligned all the time and like, be full of meaning and connection. Like, some of it just doesn't. I think that should come as no surprise. Some of it just doesn't. But a lot of it does. Like, I've, I've been really lucky with the people I've worked with, the projects I've been a part of, where people do get it. There are people in my industry that are on a similar path. And it's not to say that my path or anyone else's path is better than the other,
47:53 Speaker 00 but I want to live the most authentic life possible. And there are a million things all the time around me that can be a distraction or keep me kind of hindered or... But that's okay. I mean, I'm still kind of figuring that part out. I'm like, in the process.
48:21 André Duqum? You don't have it all figured out, Lucy?
48:22 Speaker 00 I don't. Shocker. Yeah, I wish. Maybe one day, but...
48:28 André Duqum? The funny thing about that is just like, it feels like the more we're actually living in alignment with our path, the more the path in front of us kind of disappears.
48:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
48:37 André Duqum? Like, there's always going to be a bit of a mystery. Like, if we know how everything's going to unfold in our life...
48:43 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's boring.
48:44 André Duqum? Yeah, it's boring, but it's also an indicator that you're not like, you're not, you're not creating something new.
48:51 Speaker 00 Yeah.
48:51 André Duqum? You know?
48:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
48:52 André Duqum? It's all like a recombination of past stuff.
48:54 Speaker 00 Yeah. That's true.
48:57 André Duqum? So, so yeah, I'm curious what you feel like intuitively that you're getting like hints at or whispers of this next kind of chapter of life?
49:05 Speaker 00 For the next chapter?
49:05 André Duqum? Yeah, like what's...
49:06 Speaker 00 I mean, I definitely want to...
49:12 Speaker 00 I think you followed, I have a little Instagram account called The Light Dwellers. Yeah. And we were kind of talking about it before we started. That essentially is kind of a hobby right now, but I definitely know,
49:27 Speaker 00 I definitely know I'm being pushed towards
49:33 Speaker 00 something surrounding conversations and community and like-minded people. And that would be, you know, sort of a totally separate thing than my day job as an actor.
49:45 Speaker 00 And I'm excited about that. I feel like I have a lot of ideas percolating. And it's kind of one of those things where I don't see the path with it. But I know that when you make baby steps every day, like the path kind of appears or disappears, as you just said.
50:04 Speaker 00 And I also want to
50:08 Speaker 00 create meaningful content and I, through, through acting and TV and film.
50:17 Speaker 00 And, and really make the content that I would want to see out in the world. Just
50:25 Speaker 00 stuff that makes you think, that asks the bigger questions, has a lot of meaning.
50:31 Speaker 00 But I also, like, outside of career stuff, I am in this place in my life where
50:39 Speaker 00 I'm almost craving simplicity. If that makes sense, like, I really just, you know, I'm, I'm in more of like, family mindset these days and, and wanting to build a life outside of what I do as well. That complements the other, not, would never want to abandon what I do for a living, but.
51:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, just like priorities have shifted a little bit. And I'm constantly surprised by my life. Like, you know, some of the things that happen and show up, it just, you know, I don't set a rulebook for my life. And I think that that has been kind of, especially in what I do, they tell you, you need to be this kind of actress to get this kind of role, and you need to do this to do that. And I was like, I don't want to do that. I want to have my career, and I want to do it my way. And who says I can't do a movie like that and then go and do a movie like this? Like, people are complex. I'm complex. I want to do all things.
51:44 Speaker 00 Like, I really, and I want to do it all while, you know, trying to leave the world a little bit better.
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52:59 André Duqum? How do you navigate, especially as an actor? I'm sure your relationship to rejection and like the things you get, a lot of things you don't get.
53:08 Speaker 00 Oh, it's super healthy, yeah.
53:11 André Duqum? I'm sure you've just learned a lot about that. And I'm sure it can be applied to like just going for whoever's listening to this conversation right now. We all have our desires or ambitions for what we want to create. What have you learned about how often you're going to face no and face rejection on the path to getting the win, so to speak?
53:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, you're going to hear it a lot. You're going to hear it a lot. But I've had to learn that rejection isn't personal to me. You know, it's like, there could be a multitude of reasons why we don't, why I don't book a certain job, or why, you know, not everyone can relate to entertainment industry, but like, we all experience disappointment and rejection all the time, but none of it's personal. It could be, like I said, about so many reasons, and I'll just use like, acting as an example. Like, I believe in like, the divine timing of my life. I believe that every scenario, every relationship, every friendship, every rejection, every
54:12 Speaker 00 success, like, I am one of those people that believes that is pre-planned. I really, really do. So when I look at rejection, it's all about perspective, too. Like, is it really rejection, or is it protection? Like, a lot of people say that God's rejection is God's protection. I really do believe that.
54:31 André Duqum? I like that.
54:32 Speaker 00 Like, the guy turned you down? Well, you could have been a serial killer. Like, it's a good thing. Or like, you didn't get the job? It might have been a bad movie, like, that I didn't want to be a part of. So, I think just because I have sort of the bird's eye view of my life, it's helped now, I haven't always had that. It's helped me accept the losses, which, are they really losses? The rejections and missteps with more grace, because I believe it's leading me somewhere amazing. I really do. And I think that, and that perspective shift didn't happen overnight. It's been years of that.
55:14 Speaker 00 But it's changed my life, because now I can navigate the water, you know, whatever comes my way, I know how to kind of stay laser-focused on where I'm going, and know that
55:28 Speaker 00 Anything that happens, it's only for my highest good. And I genuinely believe that to my core.
55:37 André Duqum? You said since you were very young, you felt very called towards this line of work. Yeah?
55:41 Speaker 00 Yes. Well, continue and then I'll.
55:46 André Duqum? Go for it. What, what, in what context? Yeah, what, what did you feel really called to? What aspects of it?
55:52 Speaker 00 I felt really called to
55:57 Speaker 00 something bigger. And by that, like, I didn't necessarily relate to,
56:05 Speaker 00 or I, I'm like typical black sheep of the family. Always felt a little bit different. Always felt like I thought a little bit differently. Didn't really connect with a lot of kids my age.
56:20 Speaker 00 And I just knew that
56:24 Speaker 00 I was gonna do something outside of my city and outside of my family. Like, I just had that feeling from a very young age.
56:33 Speaker 00 But I also now understand that
56:40 Speaker 00 like, the creativity outlet I had as a kid and have now was like a coping mechanism, for sure.
56:48 Speaker 00 I loved it. I didn't have to be myself. I could, you know, daydream and
56:54 Speaker 00 that was just sort of my valve, like, my emotional valve for a long time.
57:01 Speaker 00 And I don't necessarily know if that was healthy because I think there's a lot of avoidance happening as well. Like, as a kid, I didn't really know what an actor was. I just knew I wanted to escape, if that makes sense. And now.
57:25 Speaker 00 It does surprise me that I still love what I do so much, you know, considering the whole journey through it. Like, I feel like I know some people that have gone through a similar experience and like, left Hollywood or
57:37 André Duqum? Get jaded from it.
57:38 Speaker 00 Get jaded or, you know, decide to have a quieter life.
57:44 Speaker 00 So, thank God, because I didn't go to college and didn't have a backup plan. But I did always have like this sense of knowing as a kid that my life wasn't going to be ordinary. Not that ordinary is bad, but I knew it wasn't going to be the typical life. And, yeah, I don't think I knew what I was in for, but yeah.
58:14 André Duqum? Was there a moment that stood out to you as like, oh, not necessarily I made it, but like,
58:21 André Duqum? you, it was like a chapter of like really realizing, oh shit, what I kind of set out to do, I've done in some way.
58:28 Speaker 00 I still don't feel that way.
58:29 André Duqum? Really?
58:30 Speaker 00 No, I mean, of course.
58:31 André Duqum? No, it's funny though.
58:31 Speaker 00 Of course, there's been, I don't know. I always have, I'm not one of those people that can, I don't really celebrate myself because I'm always like, oh, I just finished this movie, but what am I doing? When's the next one? And I'm always planning ahead, which is a great quality. But I, you lose out on a lot of the present moment, which I told you, being joyous is being present. So I'm trying to be better about like really acknowledging the things I'm doing and what I've overcome. And, um, but I'll always have that feeling of like, oh, but I want to do more. I'm not quite there yet. And I think that that's healthy to have that kind of,
59:14 Speaker 00 when you get to the top of a mountain, there's just going to be another mountain. And it's the journey, as they say.
59:22 Speaker 00 Because I've had many destinations in the past and I'd get to the destination. I'd be like, this is it? And so it can't be about the destinations anymore. Like, I do have big dreams and big goals and I have no doubt that I'll do them. But if you're not enjoying it along the way.
59:44 Speaker 00 Kind of a bummer. So I'm trying to be better about just like, you know, celebrating myself, celebrating the people around me and
59:53 Speaker 00 and slowing down a little bit.
59:56 Speaker 00 I think I can get a little bit addicted to the hustle of things and I love being busy. I am can fall into like workaholic mode a little bit because especially after I got sober, my addictions kind of went in that direction because that's another form of avoidance. You know, if you're working all the time, if you're busy all the time, it doesn't even have to be with, you know,
1:00:23 Speaker 00 actual work. Like I'll fill my days sometimes with just like random things and I have to really stop myself and be like, why are you filling your day? And ultimately it becomes about, I still don't necessarily love being still.
1:00:39 Speaker 00 Because stillness, you know, it still will bring stuff to the surface for me. So why did I go off on that tangent?
1:00:47 André Duqum? It's a good tangent.
1:00:49 Speaker 00 I tend to, I tend to go on them and like, can't remember why, but anyway.
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1:01:24 André Duqum? For people that don't have context for how big of a show Pretty Little Liars was, I feel like, cause like it was, was, you could probably say one of the biggest shows of the time.
1:01:36 Speaker 00 So
1:01:36 André Duqum? Would you say that?
1:01:38 Speaker 00 Yes. I was just having this conversation with a friend who
1:01:43 Speaker 00 He claims he had never heard of Pretty Little Liars. And I was like, it was the biggest show in the world. But at the time, I didn't know that. Like, I think when you're in something, there isn't really, at least for me, there wasn't really an awareness of the success of it. I mean, I knew it was successful because we did many, many seasons of it. And social media was different then, though. It wasn't quite the beast it is now. Like, there wasn't TikTok. There was Instagram, I guess, and Twitter. But we were always just filming, too. So we weren't really doing anything other than like actually making the show.
1:02:25 Speaker 00 But yes, I would say it was a very, very successful show. And it changed my life. You know, I'm so grateful for that experience. And I can look back at it now. And while I was going through so much personally during that show, I can now look at it with, it probably saved my life, that experience, if we're being honest. You know, like having that structure and being busy and being surrounded by good people. I think that was kind of like my medicine for a while. And while it was sometimes hard to be struggling so much and to show up and, you know, the pressure of wanting to deliver a good show,
1:03:08 Speaker 00 I think it was a constant in my life that I really needed.
1:03:15 Speaker 00 Yeah. It's nice to be in the place now where I can look back and only feel joy about it.
1:03:24 André Duqum? I remember talking to Rainn Wilson.
1:03:27 Speaker 00 Love him. I loved y'all's conversation. It was a good one.
1:03:30 André Duqum? He's, he's great, such a good dude.
1:03:32 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:03:32 André Duqum? And, you know, what really stuck out to me, many things throughout our conversation, but one, just talking about as he was playing Dwight on The Office, he was actually very depressed and miserable for a lot of his life during that time. And I think there's this disillusionment once you start to have success and then realize like, oh, it's not the solvent I once hoped it would be.
1:03:53 Speaker 00 No, no.
1:03:54 André Duqum? In fact, it kind of can make you despondent and kind of.
1:04:00 André Duqum? It makes you realize that you're still you and you carry you with you wherever you go.
1:04:03 Speaker 00 It's gonna find you. Yeah, it's like, I don't care how much money you're making, how many followers you have, if you're on the biggest show in the world, or whatever, like.
1:04:14 Speaker 00 I'd be lying if it's, if I said it didn't make certain things easier, like, of course.
1:04:19 André Duqum? The resources, the access.
1:04:20 Speaker 00 Yes, of course. And I was always very aware of that, but yeah. You're always gonna catch up with yourself, no matter where, where you're at. But I think there can be an extreme loneliness in that, like, I couldn't relate to a lot of my friends in my life during that time because no one wants to hear about
1:04:45 Speaker 00 an actor on a successful TV show struggling, like, a lot of, a lot of people around me at that time were like, well, I don't understand, like, what's so hard? Like, how could you be unhappy? How could you be struggling in this way, behind the scenes, I mean?
1:05:00 Speaker 00 And so I kept quiet about it because I think there was a, I felt guilt around not having everything figured out while I was, the universe was like rewarding me with all of, everything I wanted.
1:05:18 Speaker 00 But it was a good lesson for me and like, you can have the world and still not feel like you have it because ultimately what I was looking for, for all those years was, wasn't more money, it wasn't more success, it wasn't more fame, it wasn't more things.
1:05:35 Speaker 00 I wanted to accept myself. I wanted to know myself and
1:05:42 Speaker 00 what an interesting way. I got to it, but what an interesting winding journey to get there.
1:05:48 André Duqum? There's something very...
1:05:52 André Duqum? I don't know, it feels like an exhale when you hear individuals like yourself, like Rain, who came on and talked about the real internal struggles that people put celebrities and actresses on this pedestal that idolize them. And it is an enchanting thing to do because it looks like a lot of what they're doing is kind of like a dream job, dream position. And I'm sure there's elements that are just incredibly wonderful. But it's also so refreshing to experience someone who's humanity. And it's something that I get to do often on this podcast. And I know you, like with other friends and colleagues in the space, you realize how everyone's human and they have their human stuff.
1:06:32 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:06:33 André Duqum? And yeah, it just kind of levels the playing field, I feel.
1:06:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think we all have more in common than we realize. Like, that's what I realized when I started talking about everything is like, yeah, our circumstances might be different, our culture, like our resources, our upbringing, but like how we feel, it's the exact same. Like, I would hear certain people's stories where we had nothing in common, but they would start talking about how they felt. And I was like, I felt more at home with them than I did with anyone in that moment. And I think we just forget. I think it's very easy to make people feel divided. I mean,
1:07:20 Speaker 00 you know, it's very easy to feel that way, but ultimately, like, we all have more in common than we think. And that is such a beautiful feeling.
1:07:29 André Duqum? What would you say to the Lucy of five, six, seven years ago?
1:07:33 Speaker 00 I would just tell her that she did a great job and I'm grateful. I spent so much of my life hating myself and hating the choices I made, but you really can't love yourself if you hate the experiences that shaped you.
1:07:54 Speaker 00 I wouldn't have changed anything.
1:07:56 André Duqum? I feel like the more that we go through those challenging, like, moments in our life and we kind of make it out the other side and that resiliency that's born from it. I don't know, I feel like it's in many ways just... Allows you to meet new painful moments that will inevitably come challenging circumstances with a bit more grace and understanding that not only will it pass, but like it's actually shaping and refining you into your next iteration.
1:08:25 Speaker 00 100%. And also, you can look at past experiences and be like, oh, my God, if that didn't happen. You see the butterfly effect of why, like, I know now why I had to go through that. And just kind of a perspective shift that everything is a teacher or a lesson. And, you know, yeah, just like really understanding that concept has changed my life. Like, and I guess that's just stepping out of victim mentality. And, and I think owning my life has changed my life because a lot of the time I would give my power away too easily and like
1:09:10 Speaker 00 blame a person or an experience of like, well, that's why I struggled, or that's why I feel this way. That is giving your power away too easily. Like, bad things happen to good people all the time. It's all in how you react to it. Doesn't mean we enable the behavior or justify it. I think accountability is really, really important.
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1:10:03 André Duqum? Would you say that you taking responsibility for your life through sobriety, and of course, we have the continual opportunity to daily, but was that, was that the primary thing that really shifted it all for you?
1:10:15 Speaker 00 Getting sober?
1:10:16 André Duqum? Uh, yeah, I guess the responsibility of like really owning that and the way you're describing it.
1:10:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think.
1:10:24 Speaker 00 That's true power. When, because I think we don't realize how powerful we are as humans. Like, we do hold all the power and we're taught that we don't. And it all starts in your mind. And, um, yeah, but I think it started with like, okay, this is literally what's happening in my life. Seeing my part in it. How do I avoid that from happening again? Like, changing the thought pattern. But then just like realizing we are all creators. And then I took it to the next level of like, okay, what do I want to create in my life?
1:11:03 Speaker 00 And realizing that I can, I can make that happen simply with my mind alone. But I'm on that path now. But yes, it did start with, with taking responsibility of my life. And, um, and forgiveness. I think forgiving people and forgiving myself. I think that that, um, has changed my life.
1:11:30 Speaker 00 And I'm still working on that as well. You know, I think, uh, new things come up all the time where I'm like, oh, I thought, I thought I had healed that. I thought I had let that go. Especially, I don't know what's going on with the planets right now, but like, stuff's happening. I feel very emotionally raw and fragile at the moment. But that's all right. You just roll with it.
1:11:54 André Duqum? What does that look like for you in terms of the forgiveness aspect? What do you feel like are those things that you need to forgive? Or have needed to?
1:12:04 Speaker 00 I think mainly, um, how I've treated other people. I think when I was hurting and in a darker place in my life, I hurt a lot of people. And not, not really on purpose, but just because I didn't know, I didn't know how to treat myself, so I didn't know how to treat other people. I still am learning to forgive things I've put myself through that were.
1:12:35 Speaker 00 Definitely not for my highest good and like maybe a little bit dangerous. But it's mainly, I think, I was a bit unkind to myself for a lot of my life. And luckily, I all the people I have apologized to, I've been gifted with the opportunity to apologize to almost everyone on my like list of people. It's crazy, like I would run into people on the street. I didn't even have their number anymore. And I'd be like, I can't believe this is happening. And and I'd get to give an apology to them, random people.
1:13:14 Speaker 00 And that's been the biggest gift of like, like releasing that emotional baggage. And then you realize like, it wasn't affecting them as much as I thought it was. Yeah.
1:13:33 André Duqum? It's cool to see what happens with like the intention to just to like go back and do a scan of like all of these sort of subconscious tabs that are open of unresolved energy and stuck things and where there's still room for more forgiveness or whatnot. And what comes on the other side of to like attending to those things. It's a it's really cool to see what opens up. And as you've described your things with like the like new community that you're like starting to foster on the side with like the light dwellers and exploring all these curiosities you have. It's um, yeah, it's just cool to see the correlation between like how cleaning up our past allows more room and more space and energy for what's to come.
1:14:16 Speaker 00 100% I mean, like, how often do you hear of someone leaving a toxic relationship? And then they get their dream job or quitting a job and then they find the love of their life like we have to let it's like I said, like you can't enter a new chapter without letting go of the old one. And it's uncomfortable, but.
1:14:38 Speaker 00 Obviously worth it.
1:14:39 André Duqum? Yeah. Do you view your like, how do you view your sense of spirituality? What is that for you?
1:14:45 Speaker 00 I really, we have to come up, what's another word for spirituality? Cause I, I believe all humans are inherently spiritual, like, because we all, in my opinion, come straight from spirit. So we are spirit. Some of us are more in tune with it. There is a spectrum, of course.
1:15:03 Speaker 00 But I feel like, you know, we live in LA, so there's spiritual people everywhere. And like, I love to do-
1:15:09 André Duqum? Lots of people on, on the spectrum.
1:15:10 Speaker 00 You know?
1:15:12 André Duqum? The spiritual spectrum.
1:15:13 Speaker 00 Spiritual spectrum. Like, I love to do all the spiritual things, like, sound healing and, you know, energy healing, crystals, all of it. Astrology, I'm more obsessed with astrology than anyone. But it takes more than that, you know, to be, in my opinion, like, I feel most spiritual when I'm living that. And that comes with how I treat other people and how I treat myself. And, um, you know, and checking in often with, I call them my team, you know? We're all surrounded by so much guidance and support. And anyone has access to that all the time. And so that to me is living a spiritual life.
1:15:58 Speaker 00 Like remembering where I come from and where I'm going after this. And, um, and just find, like, I see miracles in my life every single day. It blows my mind. That have always been there. I just like, kind of had blinders on for a long time.
1:16:15 André Duqum? Yeah, it seems like all of those tools, like the things that look kind of from the outset and like, oh, that's a spiritual practice, or you're doing sound healing or whatever. The way you're describing is just like, these are all different doorways to access what's already there and to reveal the connection that's already innate there. And I think that's important to highlight, just because spirituality has developed a sense of like, it's a face, like, we know what it looks like and it's built in identity. And that can also be like a dangerous thing too, because then you start-
1:16:44 Speaker 00 You hide behind that.
1:16:45 André Duqum? Right.
1:16:45 Speaker 00 And that becomes, I know a lot of spirit, on paper, spiritual people that scare me. I'm like, um, I wouldn't want to be within like a hundred feet of you. But yeah, you don't, is it great to have modalities and things that work for you? Of course. You don't need that. You don't need anything. You are spiritual and we have access to that 100% of the time, 24/7. But it does take, I think, consistency of checking in with yourself, of checking in with your intuition, God. But you don't need the things. And that, to me, is really cool because you can be anywhere in the world. Like, I've always
1:17:26 Speaker 00 been somewhere who never quite felt at home anywhere. I'm almost like homesick for a place I've never even been to. And I know a lot of people relate to that. But it's becoming less and less because my home has been me. I don't need, I don't need a physical home or whatever. Like, it's, it's, the home is me and my connection to something bigger than me.
1:17:55 André Duqum? That's really well said. And I think something that we can all relate to, like, beyond all the labels and identities and religions that like, kind of come back to the essence of like, the connection to a higher power, to source, to whatever labels we put on it. Like, to me, it feels like, that's what I feel like the direction we're moving in and these conversations help to be a part of. You think of science, like, there's not like Hindu science and, and American science and, you know, Australian science. Like, science is one thing. And spirituality, because of the amazing, like, ancient wisdom traditions, come from all these different things and speak it, speak about what is essentially the same thing in different ways.
1:18:38 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:18:39 André Duqum? But I feel like we're entering a time where like, we're kind of democratizing it and, and, and making it less gatekeeping and less language that is super vague and,
1:18:46 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:18:47 André Duqum? and, and helping as many people connect to it in the way that they do.
1:18:53 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:18:54 André Duqum? And I think it helps to just have these conversations where it's, like, your lived human experience is what allows you to connect and relate with people and impact them the most, I feel like.
1:19:05 Speaker 00 100%. And I, not that there's anything wrong with any specific religion, but I grew up in a
1:19:14 Speaker 00 Christian households, where I thought that was the only way. Like, and for a lot of people, that does work. And that's so beautiful. But it's not the only way. And what I always find so amazing is that there's a trillion different ways to connect to yourself or to something bigger than yourself. But it is our job as humans to connect with whatever that is. Like, I don't ever, personally, I don't ever want to live a passive life where I'm just getting by or going through the motions. Like, we are here to enjoy, to experience joy, to go through whatever we need to go through to live the lessons. But we do have a responsibility as humans. I really do believe that.
1:19:59 Speaker 00 I don't, I don't believe everyone's here to like, change the world. We all can in little ways. Some of us are here to change it, make a bigger splash than others. But I don't take my responsibility as a human lightly anymore. And I think that's shifting a lot as well. I think a lot of people are waking up. Once again, I don't know if that's just because I've woken up a little or grown up, but it feels like a lot of people are asking big, important questions and are kind of like seeing through it all a little bit. And that's exciting to me.
1:20:41 André Duqum? It is very exciting because I feel like we live in a time where it's very scary to tune into the collective of like, what's coming in the next few years and the various tragedies that we have access to, like constantly, that take up our attention. But it is so inspiring to tune into the communities and the individuals that are like waking up to these new levels of awareness. And that feels very inspiring.
1:21:04 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:21:04 André Duqum? Like a more beautiful world is possible.
1:21:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:21:07 André Duqum? When we work together from that aspect.
1:21:09 Speaker 00 Agree.
1:21:10 André Duqum? Yeah.
1:21:10 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I think it's a fine line between being aware of what's happening in the world, obviously, and holding space for it and being kind to all people. But also like protecting your own energy. I think I've had to learn that like,
1:21:29 Speaker 00 It's important that we all take care of us because that just makes for a healthier environment. You know what I'm saying? Like, when you take care of you, that bleeds out into every person you meet, and then that bleeds out into everyone else. So, yeah, it's a balance between like, knowing what's going on in the world and also like, taking care of yourself.
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1:22:21 André Duqum? What's your relationship? Because you mentioned this like, feeling of, the more you like, develop the joy and peace that is possible within ourselves, it can kind of, in contrast, feel like boredom compared to the chaos we're familiar with, that was like, excitement. And I'm just curious, as you've grown, because this is something I like, contemplate, you know, think about a bit. Like, I'm, I live a very hermited life a lot of times, and like, really enjoy my own solitude and quiet and peace. And I'm curious what that contrast has been like.
1:22:49 Speaker 00 Oh, it was like, whiplash for a long time, because my life was, I would, I was in a cycle of chaos for so long, where there'd be a really chaotic week or month, and then I'd like, pick up the pieces, and it would feel really peaceful again. And then I'd blow up my life again, whether people knew about it or not, like, internally blowing up my life. I was like, a queen of self-sabotage. I knew how to subtly sabotage anything, and that's only because I didn't feel, I guess, really deserving of something lasting or something amazing. And, and so when I, you know, got sober, life externally really quieted
1:23:32 Speaker 00 down, because I wasn't doing, making the same choices, or going to the same places, or around the same people. I found myself wanting to like, start little fires in my life, because I was like, addicted to the chaos. I loved, I still am, but I have to like, really keep that part of me in check, and like, fuel that energy into work or creativity. But, like, it-
1:23:56 Speaker 00 I feel like there might be a misconception about people who get sober that like, everything is zen and perfect and healed and that hasn't been my experience necessarily. Like, it is a chemical rebalancing as well. Like, I'm sure my brain has completely like, normalized now, but, but I, I think where I've seen like, the most chaos is just in, I guess, my dynamics with people. Like, I would try to, you know, start little fires with people in my life. And, and I've had to work on that and be aware of it. But, but
1:24:39 Speaker 00 I do appreciate the peace in my life now, which I used to equate to boredom, but it's not boredom. It genuinely is peaceful. And I used to view, I think we talked about this earlier, like, I used to view myself as boring in those moments, but now I'm like, I'm the least boring person I know. And you can find positive chaos, I think, as well. Or maybe chaos is the right, was the wrong word. I know how to have fun, and I know how to find fun in my life, in a way that doesn't derail my life, which is good. But,
1:25:24 Speaker 00 yeah, I look back in hindsight at some of it, and I need to write a book or something.
1:25:30 André Duqum? Let's go.
1:25:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:25:32 André Duqum? How has your evolution of understanding what beauty is, how has that evolved over time, what you feel beauty is?
1:25:41 Speaker 00 For myself, or just how I find it in the world?
1:25:45 André Duqum? For yourself, or what you find, yeah. No, like, yeah, what you think beauty is, how it's evolved for you over time?
1:25:49 Speaker 00 Well, I think, growing up, and in my industry, I thought beauty was obviously external, right? It was how you physically looked, how much I weighed, how much work I was doing on myself, like, my makeup, my everything. I thought that beauty was just what people could see.
1:26:13 Speaker 00 But funny enough, that's never when I felt my most beautiful. Like, I always felt kind of like a phony in that way, because, like objectively, I would look a specific way, but internally, I felt very ugly, if that makes sense, because I knew I wasn't honoring myself and I wasn't respecting myself. So now, beauty to me is, I mean, it's very subjective, obviously, but the most beautiful people to me are people who are really in tune with themselves. And, and that's an energy, right? Like, there could be someone that walks into a room that some, some people might not look twice at,
1:26:55 Speaker 00 but like, if you're met with that, like, really warm, high-frequency energy, like, that stops you in your tracks. And beauty really is internal. And there is something inherently beautiful about someone who takes care of themselves in, in all, every sense of the word. And someone who is tapped into something bigger than themselves, like, that, to me, is really beautiful. And I, it's, it's interesting being in an industry where you're kind of, or not even in the industry, like, we're met with so much all the time. There's so much information of like, how to look, what to be, what to buy.
1:27:39 Speaker 00 And it's like, oh, my God, like, it's, it's sensory overload. And, um, and I don't think that's normal for anyone. Like, we're just, how, how are we supposed to, like, really figure out who we are when we're met with all of that? Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked on that. But beauty, to me, is way more internal now. And I feel the most beautiful
1:28:06 Speaker 00 Honestly, like when I'm alone, I know that sounds crazy, but when I'm, sometimes I just get so moved by how at peace I am in my life. And I struggled a lot with, as I'm sure a lot of women and men do, like I put a lot of pressure on myself a lot of my life for the way I physically looked. And to be at peace with how God made me and how I am is a good feeling. That that that just has taken so much pressure off of my plate just to like have full, true acceptance in that way. Evolving, of course, but yeah.
1:28:53 André Duqum? What would you say to the women that are listening right now that struggle with body image?
1:29:01 Speaker 00 It's tough, you know, because I can always give my two cents or advice, but ultimately, like, we're all gonna hear my advice in a million different ways. I mean, because I could say, just like, stay offline. It's but it's not, it's not as easy as that, right? I think finding true acceptance of self,
1:29:28 Speaker 00 that's, that's a unique journey to everyone. I mean, I would say, like,
1:29:35 Speaker 00 remove the things that don't fulfill you.
1:29:39 Speaker 00 Like, remove the distractions, I guess. And I don't know, I would say, just get really curious about why the things you don't like about yourself, get really curious about that and why it is that you dislike that about yourself. And I'm willing to bet it has nothing to do with how you physically look. Like, when I would physically feel insecure about something, it wasn't really about my skin or I used to hate being short. I used to hate it more than anything. It's literally my favorite thing about me now. Because I thought
1:30:15 Speaker 00 In a world, like, I was always surrounded by tall women. And I thought, well, I'm not that, so there must be something wrong with me. No, like, I think the things that make you unique, like, learn to love them. Find a way to love them. And I can't tell you how to do that. But I think it all starts with curiosity. Because underneath, underneath it all, there's always like a core wound. And I think it's just like really setting aside time to get to know yourself. And that does take work. That's, that's commitment and, um, and being consistent with that. And the answers will come. And also ask, ask for guidance. Pray, talk out loud.
1:30:58 Speaker 00 Like, sometimes when I haven't known what to do, or even didn't even know who I was speaking to, if you just like speak out loud and you believe that the answers will come, they will, through a song, through a post, through a person, through a number, like, I really believe that's how the universe works. And like, in my darkest moments, when I haven't known what to do, prayer changed my life.
1:31:27 Speaker 00 So whoever's listening, thanks.
1:31:30 André Duqum? What does prayer look like to you? Is it just a internal talking to a higher power, like writing?
1:31:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, so I, I'm very, um, I always have intentional mornings. No matter where I'm at, like, I always set aside time in the morning to set me up for a great day. Because I am one of those people that like, if my morning starts off wrong,
1:31:54 Speaker 00 so I always make sure that I have that time to connect with myself. And, and I guess prayer is through a journal a lot. It can be internal prayer. I mean, sometimes I talk to myself a lot in my car, which is, um, which is also prayer time. But, um, yeah, I, I just need
1:32:17 Speaker 00 as many moments as I can find that are just for me, where, where I'm by myself, but.
1:32:26 André Duqum? So fun. It's so fun to learn all the little aspects and the way that you show up for yourself.
1:32:30 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:32:32 André Duqum? I've really just thoroughly enjoyed getting to get more glimpses of insight into the different parts of your journey. And I think people are gonna really resonate with it because you're being real. And I know it feels raw, I'm sure, at times. But again, and I mentioned earlier, like, I just commend you for showing up so courageously to, like, say what it is and not just what it wants to sound like, you know?
1:32:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you. And I, you know, I've also am at this place in my life where I'm like, okay, I have talked about these things a lot. Like, what else do I want to talk about? And, and, and I'm just so grateful to be able to be in this point in my life to have these conversations. And, like, you never know what's gonna affect someone. You never know. I always, that's why, like, when I come into these things, and I was like, ask whatever you want. Like, we don't have to prepare, because I know that the right words are gonna come out of my mouth to affect the right people that need to hear it in that moment, whether that's five people, or 5,000 people, or whatever. I just believe that things always happen as they should. So I'm so grateful to be here.
1:33:38 Speaker 00 Finally, this is such a, so surreal. I love this podcast. So, thank you.
1:33:43 André Duqum? So sweet. Yeah, I think it's, it's always in the right timing. Like, I know we were communicating about.
1:33:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:33:50 André Duqum? Is there anything else on your heart, could be about anything, that you feel called to share about, or that we haven't talked to?
1:33:57 Speaker 00 Okay, so I'm 36. I'm not married, and I don't have kids. And I'm, I finally, you know, I've been greeted with a lot recently within my world of people being like, oh. And I just feel like there's a lot of women who probably need to hear that it's okay to not have that at this point in your life. Like, I-
1:34:23 Speaker 00 I have seen so many people in my life settle down, have kids, have the family, and that's beautiful and that's amazing. But, and I know that that's a part of my life soon. It, it isn't yet, but I think that, I don't know why I felt called to say that. I, I do believe that there's big lessons within being alone at this time in your life. There's nothing wrong with it. I think that if you are at a place in your life where you feel alone or you are single, I'm willing to bet you're being called towards something really, really amazing. So to like,
1:35:00 Speaker 00 enjoy the time with yourself and like get come. I feel like maybe the world is trying to tell you something. Does that make sense?
1:35:06 André Duqum? Like, No, for sure.
1:35:07 Speaker 00 I feel like society tries to tell us to, that we need certain things in order to live a fulfilled life. But basically just don't compare your journey to anyone else's.
1:35:19 André Duqum? Just a note on that because I have a lot of women in my life also who are mid, late 30s, early 40s, who I know would be incredible mothers that want to be mothers. Not everyone wants to have kids. And the reality of the biological clock for a woman is different than a man's.
1:35:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:35:36 André Duqum? I'm just curious, any other thoughts of like how you navigate that? Kind of that, that dance of that yearning and then also like not settling for something.
1:35:44 Speaker 00 Oh, well, that's the thing is like, I'm so comfortable being alone. I love my life. I love the people in my life. I made a commitment to myself that whoever I end up with has got to be really excellent. You know, like it doesn't mean you don't compromise with someone, but like I, I want a true partner and someone who can like meet me where I'm at and have an understanding of what I've been through.
1:36:10 Speaker 00 But obviously like, yeah, there is the biological conversations that are very valid. But I think it just goes back to, I just believe in, it'll make sense. I believe in the timing of my life and it'll, I'll, it'll, when, when it all happens, I'll be like, oh, I see why it had to happen that way. We put so much pressure on ourselves and on other people and,
1:36:37 Speaker 00 and I don't know if there's really a way to avoid that, but I do, I have found it comforting to have conversations with women who found all of that later in their life. And, and I know that. I wouldn't have been able to handle all of that at a different time in my life. No way. I would have completely, that would have, you know, I wasn't mentally, emotionally, spiritually able to nurture all of that then. So, um, yeah, I don't know why I felt called to say that, but.
1:37:15 André Duqum? I think it's really important. I'm glad you did.
1:37:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:37:17 André Duqum? Because I think a lot of people can really resonate with that.
1:37:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:37:20 André Duqum? One last thing that came up on, on that front, because I think it's tied in, is like this, this balance between ambition and surrender of like your masculine and feminine sides. When it comes to both relationships and career and the things that like you want to bring into this world, what is the conversation you're having with yourself of like how that's evolving?
1:37:40 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely more in my masculine.
1:37:44 Speaker 00 In the sense that like, I'm a go getter. I want to take action. I want to do, like, I want to provide. And I've had to really learn how to be more in my feminine. And that, when you're, when I'm in my feminine, my intuition is stronger. Like, I let things flow and I let people come to me. And it really is a dance all the time because that masculine energy is what has made me successful in my career. But it's not necessarily, doesn't work for me in romantic relationships. Like, so it's been, yeah, that's been an interesting,
1:38:22 Speaker 00 dance in my life, for sure, is like finding the balance between the two. Because I'm never gonna not be a go getter.
1:38:33 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think, I think just like, true feminine energy is just like trusting. I think it's truly just like trusting that things are unfolding exactly as they should. And, or I guess surrender is like knowing when to take action and knowing when to sit back and be like, I'm taken care of.
1:38:53 André Duqum? I was just curious. I know it's a. I think it's a conversation a lot of people are in, especially.
1:38:58 Speaker 00 How do you feel?
1:39:00 André Duqum? Selling my feminine these days.
1:39:01 Speaker 00 Oh, so nice. Give me some of that.
1:39:06 André Duqum? No, how do I feel? I feel like I have a decent balance. I think it definitely toggles in different periods where I'm like just working so much and I'm just like so focused on what I want to create and can just use a bit more of like the feminine side.
1:39:22 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:39:24 André Duqum? It's just fascinating, I guess, living in, especially the more ones connected online and social media and like comparison can be a thing that slips in no matter where you're at.
1:39:33 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:39:34 André Duqum? And I'm just inviting more and more of the perspective that like to be grateful that many of the things I'm living right now are things I wished for so many years ago and to like allow that to be enough and fill that, you know.
1:39:49 Speaker 00 That's such a beautiful reminder. Like, that's why I journal in the way that I do because I go back and I read what I wanted a year ago and then I see that it's actually happened and I'm like, wow. Yeah, that's a great reminder.
1:40:06 André Duqum? No, it's good.
1:40:07 Speaker 00 Thanks for that.
1:40:08 André Duqum? There's been lots of great reminders in this conversation.
1:40:10 Speaker 00 Do you do, me and my friends do a British accent sometimes, too.
1:40:14 André Duqum? It just comes out kind of like.
1:40:16 Speaker 00 It just happens.
1:40:17 André Duqum? Yeah, it just comes out whether or not I like it.
1:40:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, I was just working in London and I would do that and I think they thought I was mocking them. But I'm like, no, no, it's just a thing that we do.
1:40:28 André Duqum? It's just a better, it's a better way to talk sometimes.
1:40:31 Speaker 00 It's just a better way to talk. I agree. It sounds better. Yeah.
1:40:34 André Duqum? I love it. Well, I'm excited to just get to know you more and be friends and all the things. And yeah, thank you for everything. We'll leave links down to both the Light Dwellers and your personal like accounts and where people can stay connected with you. And I'm just so excited to see your journey unfold more than next week.
1:40:49 Speaker 00 Thank you for having me.
1:40:51 André Duqum? You did best. Appreciate you.
1:40:52 Speaker 00 Cheers.
1:40:54 André Duqum? Cheers, darling.
1:40:54 Speaker 00 Cheers, darling.
1:40:56 André Duqum? Everybody, I hope you enjoy this episode of the Know thyself podcast. Let us know in what ways this uniquely resonated with you and I'll see you next week. Be well.
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