Shaka Senghor On Righting Wrongs & Why Your Worst Deeds Don’t Define You

Imagine yourself growing up around the wrong people. Because it's easy, you fall into the wrong crowd. Blink, and you’re in. Deep. A victim of impossible circumstances, it’s not long before you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. In the reflexive moment — impulsively and without thought – you do the wrong thing. A thing so terrible, it forever alters the trajectory of your life. A thing so unimaginably horrible, you dedicate the rest of your life in service to atonement. This is the story of Shaka Senghor. At the age of 19, Shaka shot and killed a man. Convicted of second-degree murder, Shaka would spend the next 19 years in different prisons, seven of which were spent in solitary confinement. While inside, Shaka made a decision. A decision to fully own his circumstances. A decision to transcend victimhood, understand his past, free his mind and expand his thinking. When he wasn't voraciously reading, he wrote. And it was through this relentless commitment to knowledge, self-understanding and compassion that he ultimately pulled himself out of the anger that led to his incarceration and prevented him from reaching his full potential. Released in 2010, Shaka did not return to a life of violence. Instead, he committed himself to one singular idea: that our worst deeds don’t define who we are, nor do they prohibit our contribution to a better world. Fidelity to this ideal transformed Shaka's utterly broken life into one of meaning, purpose and advocacy. Now a leading voice in prison reform, he is a powerful public speaker, a Senior Fellow with the Dream Corps, a 2014 TED Prize finalist, a former MIT Media Lab Director’s Fellow, a former University of Michigan lecturer, a current Fellow in the inaugural class of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation’s Community Leadership Network and the founder of The Atonement Project. In addition, he recently launched Mind Blown Media, a new media company that aims to create high-impact content focused on the criminal justice system and mass incarceration. Shaka’s memoir, Writing My Wrongs: Life, Death and Redemption in an American Prison* debuted on The New York Times Best Seller List as well as The Washington Post Best Seller List. He has been interviewed by Oprah and his TED Talk, which received a standing ovation, has been viewed more than 1.4 million times and was featured by TED as one of the most powerful TED Talks of 2014. Shaka has appeared on CNN, CBS This Morning, The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, Good Day New York, and he has been a guest on numerous radio programs, including NPR’s All Things Considered. And if all that isn't impressive enough, Shaka is the recipient of numerous awards, including the 2016 EBONY Power100, the 2016 Ford Man of Courage, the 2016 NAACP Great Expectations Award, the 2015 Manchester University Innovator of the Year, and the 2012 Black Male Engagement Leadership Award. I’m honored to share Shaka’s powerful story with you today. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  The absolute worst prison is the one we erect in our own minds. And we live in a culture that's constantly trying to lock us into unhealthy ideas about who we are, what we're capable of, who we aren't. And I think that the more we mentally free ourselves individually, the more work we can do collectively. We have to learn how to wrap our arms around our brothers and sisters. We have to have those conversations that are uncomfortable. We have to really think about how our actions impact other people.

• 1:42Rich Roll?

  That's Shaka Sangor, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:00Rich Roll?

  Greetings, everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? My name is Rich Roll. Welcome to my podcast. I got a great show for you guys today. I think it's an important show. It's a heavy show, very, very heavy. One, I think, is likely to haunt you, perhaps stick with you, make you think, but also hopefully inspire you. But before we dig in, let's get the business end of this thing done.

• 2:33Rich Roll?

  All right, today's episode. So I want you to imagine, imagine yourself growing up around the wrong people, falling into a crowd you know you shouldn't be hanging out with. One thing leads to another, and then you're in, you're in deep. And like so many who find themselves in impossible circumstances, it's really not long before you find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. And then, without even thinking impulsively, you do the wrong thing. The worst thing you can imagine, a thing that changes the trajectory of your life forever. A thing so unspeakably horrible, you dedicate the rest of your life to trying to atone for it.

• 3:16Rich Roll?

  Well, this is the story of Shaka Sangor. In the summer of 1991, at the age of just 19, Shaka shot and killed a man, after which he spent 19 years in different prisons, seven of which were spent in solitary confinement. And while he was inside, he made this decision, a decision to understand his past, to free his mind and expand his thinking. He read, he wrote, and ultimately, he was able to...

• 3:45Rich Roll?

  Pull himself out of the anger that led to his incarceration and prevented him from reaching his full potential. And when he was released in 2010, he didn't return to a life of crime. Instead, Shaka has done the remarkable, resurrecting his utterly broken life into a life of service, a life devoted to atonement, prison reform, nonviolent conflict resolution, community activism, literature, and really inspiring others to transcend their circumstances. This idea that our worst deeds don't define who we are, and nor do they prohibit our contribution to a better world. Now a leading voice in

• 4:26Rich Roll?

  prison reform, Shaka is a powerful public speaker, a senior fellow with the Dream Corps, a 2014 TED Prize finalist, a former MIT Media Lab Directors Fellow, a former University of Michigan lecturer, a current fellow in the inaugural class of the W.K. Kellogg Foundation's Community Leadership Network, and the founder of The Atonement Project. In addition, he recently launched Mind Blown Media, which is a new media company that aims to create high-impact content focused on the criminal justice system and mass incarceration. Shaka's memoir, Writing My Wrongs: Life, Death, and Redemption in an American Prison, debuted on the New York Times Bestseller List as well as the Washington Post Bestseller

• 5:09Rich Roll?

  List. He's been interviewed by Oprah on her Super Soul Sunday program, and it's a conversation Oprah has called, quote, "one of the best I've ever had, not just in my career, but in my life. His story touched my soul." Shaka's TED Talk received a standing ovation. It's been viewed more than 1.3 million times and was featured by TED as one of the most powerful TED Talks of 2014. That's linked in the show notes. You guys should definitely check that out. Shaka has appeared on CNN, CBS This Morning, The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, Good Day New York, and has been a guest on numerous radio programs, including NPR's All Things Considered and many, many more. He's also the recipient of numerous

• 5:50Rich Roll?

  awards, including the 2016 Ebony Power 100, the 2016 Ford Man of Courage, the 2016 NAACP Great Expectations Award, the 2015 Manchester University Innovator of the Year, and the 2012 Black Male Engagement Leadership Award.

• 6:10Rich Roll?

  That's a mouthful, right? That's quite, uh, quite a list coming from where he has come from. And I guess I want to leave you with this. Uh, I'm honored to share Shaka's extraordinary, powerful story with you guys today. Like I said, it's heavy, it's intense. It's a story about what it takes to truly turn your life around, to overcome abuse, you know, horrible pain, victimhood, drugs, gun violence and crime, and ultimately embody atonement, forgiveness, redemption, reform, gratitude and service. So with that said, I give you Shaka Senghor.

• 6:52Rich Roll?

  Shaka, man, so good to, uh, meet you and grab an opportunity to talk to you.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Likewise, pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on the show.

• 7:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was with, uh, our mutual friend Doug Evans. The other day, you know Doug, right? Juicero King. And he's like, you gotta talk to Shaka, you gotta. So he hooked it up and I appreciate you carving out a slice of your day for me.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  I appreciate you having me. Uh, shout out to Doug.

• 7:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's the man, right?

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Doug's a good guy.

• 7:18Rich Roll?

  And you're, uh, you're speaking at the, the milking conference coming up, right?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, in May, I think it's May the 1st. So I'm super excited about that. Sounds like an amazing lineup of people, uh, that'll be there. Ariana Huffington, Deepak Chopra, so it's pretty cool people.

• 7:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, my buddy Rip Esselstyn is speaking at that as well. I think Doug is attending. I don't think he's speaking, but he was telling me about it and it just sounds incredible.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, looks like a lot of amazing people gonna be there. So I'm excited. Uh, I know Kareem Abdul-Jabbar gonna be there. So I'm a big basketball fan and I'm already fan out over many people, but definitely somebody I would love to just meet. He's such a brilliant person outside of his, you know, accomplishments on the court. I read one of his books when I was in, uh, jail and it was just mind blowing, so.

• 8:08Rich Roll?

  That's cool. You should, you should share that from the podium when you're up there.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:12Rich Roll?

  Let them know, you know what I mean?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:14Rich Roll?

  Well, your story is incredibly powerful and, uh, it's inspiring. How you've been able to, you know, take what has occurred in your life and, uh, transform not only yourself, but turn it into a powerful message that, uh, is transformative for others, man. And that's, that's no small feat and I'm really honored to be able to dig into it a little bit with you. And I think. You know, kind of a good way to launch into it is to take a tip off, you know, something I heard you say, which is, you know, there's the story, of course, there's your story, but there's the story behind the story, you know, and then there's the story behind that story,

• 8:55Rich Roll?

  right? And in order to like really fully understand where you came from and what you've endured and how you've overcome it, you have to create context around that, right? You have to understand like the syntax in which all of this occurred. So can you take us back a little bit and maybe we'll just start at the beginning?

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. I mean, I just think it's really important, especially in the day and age where we're, everything is so immediately shoved in your face, right? Like, you know, this person's a convicted murderer, this person robbed the bank, this person is just a horrible human being. And oftentimes, we don't really understand how people arrive at the points in their life where they're at a crisis. And in my case, you know, I grew up on the east side of Detroit in the neighborhood. That was, you know, a nice, middle-class, working-class neighborhood. Back then, we were like the first black family on the block and had some amazing neighbors, though. It was just like a really interesting mix, you know, Italian neighbors and Irish and just the way that we

• 9:56Speaker 01

  engaged each other as a community was really special in that, in that regard. But what was happening on the side of my household is something that happens all too often in a lot of households, where my mother was really abusive toward her children and-

• 10:11Rich Roll?

  In a, in a physical way or just an emotional-

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Physically, emotionally, verbally. She had the trifecta of abuse. And, you know, when you're going through it, you don't even realize it's abuse because this is what I grew up with. And I have older siblings who I witnessed her abuse. And my father was complicit in that because it wasn't just her.

• 10:36Rich Roll?

  He's a military guy, right?

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my father was in the air force and he also worked for the state. But my father was, you know, like the typical working father back then, you know, when he's going to work, we're in school. When he's coming home, we're asleep. So I'm not sure to what degree he understood all of what was happening because we wasn't articulating that. But he was complicit in the sense that, you know, there were times when it was very evident of what was happening and he didn't do anything to stop it. And that happens in a lot of households as well, where one parent may be more abusive than the other. And or another parent may become a part of the conspiracy to hide the abuse.

• 11:18Rich Roll?

  On some level, he had to know, though, what's going on in his house.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm very, I know he knew it at some level, but to what level, you know, is the different thing. But, you know, hindsight being what it is, you know, like you said, the story behind the story behind the story. What I learned about my mother is that my mother had grew up

• 11:41Speaker 01

  in this cycle of abuse from, you know, how she was raised to her first marriage. And so I believe it hurt people hurt people. And, you know, of course, I didn't have that knowledge as a kid when I'm being beat and slapped around, etc. But as an adult, that's one of the things that made it easy for me to forgive her is because I understood she was just repeating the cycle as oftentimes is the case.

• 12:07Rich Roll?

  How's your relationship with her now?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  We're good. I actually talked to her the day before yesterday and, you know, we're always cordial. You know, one of the things I realized that we'll never have that, you know, father-son, I mean, mother, mother-son relationship. It's unfortunate, you know, because I look at how my son's mother is in terms of how she nurtures and cares for him and, you know, and just other friends who have great relationships with their mother, where whenever things happen in their life, that's the first person that they go share that with, you know. So we don't, we don't have that, but we're definitely cordial and respectful to each other and, you know, she's still my mother at the end of the day.

• 12:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it had to be a little rough for her to read, righting my wrongs.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we've had some moments with the book coming out, with the interview I did with Oprah that talked about some of her less than stellar moments, you know. And what I did is I sat her down and I talked to her and I was like, you know, when I was writing this book, it was by far the most difficult book I've had to write because I knew I was going to be highlighting unsavory moments about my mother, my father. But I explained to her, I was like, you know, in the midst of this, I'm sharing my most shameful and traumatic moment, you know, and.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  What I was convicted of is far more serious than, you know, what happened to me. And so, once I was able to give her that context, she was, she looked at it a little differently. And like I explained to her, like, my responsibility is to the young men and women who I mentor, but also to the people in the community who are oftentimes judging, um, people based on a singular act without really taking the time to understand, how do we arrive at this point? And if, in order to fix something, you have to know the root causes of it.

• 14:01Rich Roll?

  And the book is only as powerful as you are willing to be open and honest about everything in all its, you know, sort of unsavory detail.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the book, the book wouldn't have any relevance if it was just kind of like a, a basic overview of the experience, you know? And, you know, we live in a country where gun violence is rampant, you know, where violence itself is rampant. Um, right now, they're dealing with an issue where a, a guy in Cleveland, and he decided to Facebook Live or something and, and, yeah.

• 14:32Rich Roll?

  I know, that happened, yeah, just a couple days ago.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  And shoot this old, older gentleman. Um, and people are just like, so desensitized to what's happening. And there, it's such a rush to judgment of, oh, hey, we should execute him on sight, uh, do this and do that. And I'm a little bit more hesitant in, in terms of, you know, my reaction to it. I mean, as a, as a man with a father who I love and care about, and just as a person who understands the devastating impact that gun violence has on families, you know, I have the emotional reaction as well, but also have a broader context, you know, to, to look at. And so, I just think we living in some rough times right now when we dealing with these type of issues.

• 15:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's pretty insane right now. Everything seems to be, uh, going in the wrong direction at the moment.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:19Rich Roll?

  Um, all right, so you're, you're a kid, you're growing up in, you know, you know, sort of un, under the umbrella of your mom in this abusive situation that, that, you know, I presume gets normalized to some extent because that's all you know, right? Like, so you're just, you know, you're going to school and trying to do the best you can, and you're what, like 10, 12 at this point?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I mean, like, it's, it's normalized in, in some ways, but, you know, it's deeply hurtful and painful. And, and I just remember how I began to shrink, you know, the older I got, um, just in terms of my personality and being outgoing and being just this kid who is so full of excitement in life and, and, and, you know, as all kids are when they first start off. And by the time I was like fourteen, I was like, you know, I had enough and I decided to run away and I was so naive about the world that I was about to enter, you know, I had older siblings and, you know, we all grew up, you know, like at that point, by

• 16:17Speaker 01

  the time I turned fourteen, our neighborhood had changed dramatically. It went from this, you know, this real community, this sense of community to crack was entering the neighborhood and people were moving out, we were dealing with white flight and factories closed and doing, this is Detroit, so this is the Rust Belt. So I had, you know, I had an understanding to some degree of what happens outside of, you know, my household and my neighborhood, but I was nowhere near being prepared. And I don't think any kid can be prepared to enter this adult subculture of drug trafficking.

• 16:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and all of that is outside your control that's going on socially in your community. Like when you were talking about that, it reminded me of the OJ documentary Made in America, you know, and how they did such a phenomenal job of creating the story behind the story and the context for how all of that unfolded because you can't understand it unless you understand the history of the LAPD and the history of race in Los Angeles in its fullest context from the beginning, right?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think when we look at a lot of the stuff that's happening, you know, that documentary, and I haven't seen the full documentary, but I've heard just

• 17:33Rich Roll?

  It's like eight hours. It's amazing. You gotta watch the whole thing.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I definitely look forward to it. But, you know, being able to put everything in the context is so important, you know, when I ran away, crack was just entering Detroit. So it's still considered a party drug. It was still, you know, the clientele was doctors and lawyers and teachers and, you know, people who had respect in the community, but that diminished so quickly and I was sucked in right during that time. So I went in, this innocent naive kid, nowhere to go, homeless, no way to feed myself, and basically older, more seasoned street hustler preyed upon me the way that, you know, many kids are preyed upon in our community. Like, we talk about human trafficking a lot and...

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Most of the times, what's attached to human trafficking is, you know, young ladies being prostituted out, being taken advantage of, you know, in the sex industry. But one of the things we don't really think about is how kids are trafficked within drug culture. And how they're seduced into this culture, they're promised this whole other world, and then they're get, they, once you're tricked into it, it's almost like you can't escape it. And so that was the world that I was in, uh, 1986.

• 18:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's amazing. I'd never thought of that. I mean, that's so true. I never thought of it in the context of human trafficking, though. But, yeah, obviously the case. I mean, so, so you, basically, you, you run away from home at like 14, right? Like, you just had enough and decided, you know, you, you, what, what, I mean, what was the plan? Like, did you think it through at all? Or are you just gonna find a friend's couch to crash on, or? Because at the time, you were like, just, again, to create context, and sorry to interrupt, but you were a good kid. I mean, you're doing well in school, you're getting good grades, like, you know, everything is sort of going in the right direction in terms of like, you know, sort of the trajectory, you know, at least academically in your life.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, I was so naive, I, there was no real plan other than to get away from the pain. Um, and, and when you're operating out of that emotional cloud, it's hard to see things clearly, and especially when you're 14 years old. Um, and especially a 14-year-old back then, like, 14-year-olds today are a lot more advanced because they have so much access to the world through social media and, you know, the different gadgets and things like that. But back then, you know, I just thought that somebody would see this, you know, this smart little handsome kid and say, um, I'll take care of him, you know, and I'll wrap him in the love and nourishment that all children deserve. And unfortunately, this wasn't the reality.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  The first couple of weeks, I was sleeping in garages and basements and, you know, abandoning, you know, places where, you know, we turned into clubhouses. You know, my friends, they would smuggle me food, or we would go up to the local grocery store and hustle and do whatever we could. And it was in that vulnerable space that, you know-

• 20:25Rich Roll?

  You get recruited.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Get recruited into this, to this culture.

• 20:27Rich Roll?

  And what's that, what's the initial pitch?

• 20:29Speaker 01

  An initial pitch is that, you know, you'll make a lot of money. Uh, you'll be able to, you know, feed yourself, you'll have somewhere to stay, you'll be able to dress nicely. Um, and when you haven't showered in a couple of weeks and you don't have, you have on the same tattered clothes and you're hungry because the only thing you've been eating is chips and cookies and pops. Like, it's very appealing, you know, and the first day, um, into the culture, you know, took me to Burger King, which was a big thing back then, you know, like kids wasn't going to Burger King regularly and being able to order everything on the menu and, and literally that's what I did. And so it's, it's basically a, a, a form of, um,

• 21:13Speaker 01

  it's basically a form of manipulation where you're really manipulating the person into the culture and you're giving them this, this big introduction, you know, because you know what works for kids, you know? Burger King and whatever kind of cereal they like to eat, you know, and new gym shoes and clothes. And so that's kind of how it was like the first week. I had never felt that taken care of, you know, by anybody, you know, uh, went shopping and like just go in and get whatever you want and, you know, go into the grocery store and, you know, get you something for the house or whatever, you know, um.

• 21:43Rich Roll?

  And it's hard to say no to that.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, so.

• 21:46Rich Roll?

  And is your mom trying to find you or like, how does that play out?

• 21:49Speaker 01

  You know what? I don't, I don't, I don't, to this day, I don't know. I don't, I don't think so. Um, you know, my mother, you know, again, I'm, I'm the, I'm the fourth of six children. So I had all the siblings who had ran away before. And, you know, I used to hear her say, I'm not going out there looking for them. They, they'll bring their butt back home whenever they ready, you know? Um, or police bring them home or they'll find them in the morgue. Like, so she really wasn't the type that was like, oh my God, my child is missing.

• 22:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Uh, let's put them on a, on a milk carton, you know?

• 22:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  So they're like, okay, well, you don't want to buy a lot of rules.

• 22:23Rich Roll?

  So you get plugged into this system, right? There's probably a bunch of other kids your age doing the same thing, like a whole culture around it. And, uh, and you're getting taken care of, right? And you're making some cash.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the culture was full of young guys, like all of us were, you know, fourteen, thirteen, fifteen years old.

• 22:41Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  You know, the guys was actually running the show, they were a little older, you know, even now, when I look back, like, the guy that I first started selling drugs, well, he seemed so much older than he actually was. You know, now, looking back, he was like, maybe twenty, twenty-two, no older than twenty-two. And to a fourteen-year-old, that's like a grown man, you know? But now, looking back, I'm like, he was still a kid in a lot of ways, you know? But it's a very youth-driven culture, you know? And especially with, even with the drug laws back then, you know, the dealers were always figuring out, trying to figure out ways to get around the severity of the drug laws and by using young kids, like, with the, you know, telling them that they wouldn't get

• 23:27Speaker 01

  real time, they would just go to juvie and be back out.

• 23:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Which wasn't true, by the way, um, because you can get charged as an adult, or there's a guy at Detroit named White Boy Rick, who's been in prison almost thirty years now, or maybe, maybe longer than that, uh, who was, you know, part of this culture at seventeen, he's been in prison ever since, so, um, yeah, a lot of manipulation in that culture.

• 23:50Rich Roll?

  So, to paint like a visual of, you know, what that experience was like for you, like, my only frame of reference, you know, ironically, like, I'm from, I'm from Grosse Pointe.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Oh, cool.

• 24:01Rich Roll?

  We moved to DC when I was a kid, but it's funny, because like, we're sitting here together, my life experience, like, growing up couldn't have been more different from you, and I'm a little bit older than you, but not much, but I'm just thinking, like, you know, I was just on the other side of town, like, when a lot of this was going on and had no connection to it whatsoever. But in terms of, like, trying to understand visually, like, what this looked like, my only frame of reference is like, watching The Wire, you know, when I see kind of how that operation unfolded, is that, like, similar, like, when you watch something like that, is that an accurate portrayal of what you think it was like?

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember when I, when I got out of prison, everybody was like, you gotta check out The Wire, you gotta see this show, right? Um, and, and when I watched it, I was like, wow, this is such a... Uh, adequate representation of the experience in a lot of ways. I mean, you know, obviously the geography is a little bit different, um, but sis- the system of it.

• 24:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  The young kids, the young runners, you know, the abuse that they were experiencing. You know, the beatings when they messed up money, the, you know, the shootouts, the, you know, the beatings by the cops, like, that was our everyday life.

• 25:05Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Uh, my first six months in, I experienced all the horrors that come with the culture. You know, one of my childhood friends was murdered, uh, in front of a crack house. Um, my older brother was shot, um, and then I was robbed at gunpoint. And I remember, I remember being robbed at gunpoint, like, that was the closest I ever came to running home, because this was like probably within the first couple of weeks. And these guys robbed me, it was, um, actually not far from Groceport, it was literally like right on the other side of Jefferson.

• 25:38Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Um, so for people who don't know, Detroit, uh, Jefferson is a major street that separates one of the suburbs from the, in the city. Um, I remember being robbed in this crack house, it was Jefferson de Chalmers, and these guys who robbed me, one of them, you know, he was, he was a crack addict, but he was also a heroin addict. And I just remember him, you know, having this arm around my neck and these just, these pus-filled hands and for anybody who's ever saw what heroin does when you inject heroin, it causes your feet and your hands to swell up, um, and just I remember him just to smell,

• 26:19Speaker 01

  you know, it was like cheap wine and, and pus and just sweat and, you know, desperation. And I remember thinking like, man, they just gonna shoot me in the back of the head and kick me down these stairs, you know? And-

• 26:32Rich Roll?

  For like a, you know, a couple bucks or whatever you happen to have.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  No more than a thousand dollars between drugs and, and, uh, money. Um, and in that moment, that's when the shift began from being this innocent kid to, you know, toughening up and becoming street savvy and street smart and not trusting people and being very cynical and reactionary, you know, so.

• 26:58Rich Roll?

  So at the same time, though, there's a, there's like a code and it, and it becomes your family, right? So, you know, it's like, cause I'm imagining somebody listening to this thinking, well, why didn't you get out then? Like, you know what I mean? But that's not really, you know, an option. I mean, I suppose it is, but, but harder than one might think.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not, it's not an option for a couple of reasons. For one, you know, once you've been on the inside of an operation to just arbitrarily decide to step outside of it puts you in as an immediate threat because you can be a snitch, you can be a, you know, a, a informant, because you know everything, you can be the person that sets somebody else up to get robbed. So there's all those things that come with it. Um, in that moment when I got robbed, it was like, I can't go back and tell them that I'm scared to die. Because in the hood, nobody's scared to die outwardly.

• 27:54Rich Roll?

  You can't show fear.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Can't show that in the hood.

• 27:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Um, and so it's all these different things working on a very young mind and a very traumatized mind, you know, in that moment.

• 28:04Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. So the next kind of big thing that happens is, is when you get in an altercation and you end up getting shot, like you're like 18 or 19 at that point.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  I was 17.

• 28:14Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  So, yeah, a few years later, um, I was on the west side of Detroit, you know, in the neighborhood called Brightmore, where I, you know, sold drugs at. And I had got arrested and went to juvenile. It was, and it was like the last time that I was in juvenile because they told me, um, I, I actually was 16 when I got arrested and went to juvenile and turned 17 and they was like, you know, next time you'll be in the county jail, uh, because we were charged with as an adult. But anyway, when I came home, uh, the girl I was seeing prior to the woman I was seeing, actually she was a grown woman, I was seeing prior to me going in, her and I had like a minor conflict over some broken promises

• 28:54Speaker 01

  and things of that nature. And, uh, when she went and told her boyfriend, he came through, I thought it was gonna be like a old school fistfight or something, you know, I didn't even know this guy. And instead he turned around and shot me multiple times, um, twice in my leg, once in my foot. I still had a bullet in my foot. And when I went to the hospital, because the ambulance never came, my friend actually took me to the hospital. When I went to the hospital.

• 29:20Rich Roll?

  And the ambulance doesn't come because they just don't go to that part of town.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  It's like, I mean, they'll eventually get there. It's just, you know, you might be dead by the time they get there, you know, dealing with some other issues. So we, we felt the ambulance take, we didn't, we didn't, to our knowledge, the ambulance never even came. Um, but we waited a while for the ambulance coming and never came. So my friend took me to the hospital, dropped me off and basically they pulled bullets out of my legs, patched me up, uh, gave me a prescription for some antibiotics and some pain pills. And literally just, I was back home within like a couple of days and it was like no counselor stepped in and say, hey, how are you feeling? What are you thinking? You know, no psychologist, psychiatrist.

• 30:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How you live in your life right now? How about that?

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, um, and so I was at this point, I was 17 years old. So I went back to my neighborhood with all these emotions. What I call this volatile cocktail of emotions, um, anger, paranoia, you know, fear, and you know, I began to carry a gun every day. And, um, and I, and it wasn't like the first time I had carried a gun, but it became very prominent part of my life in terms of just how I thought about life. I didn't feel safe without having a gun either on me or nearby. One of my friends had one. Um, and it was just different. Like standing on the corner no longer was the same. And I wasn't the first of my guys to get shot, but it's, it's one of those things where when your friend gets shot and they don't articulate what their experience or feeling, you just look

• 30:50Speaker 01

  at it like it's just, you know, this happens in the hood. But once it happens to you and you realize how fragile life is and how in a wink of an eye, your life can be gone, it just shifts your, you know, way of thinking.

• 31:02Rich Roll?

  And you're a ticking time bomb. I mean, it's all, you know, with, with that, like, you know, post-traumatic stress, that trauma going, you know, unaddressed, undelved with, it's only a matter of time before, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna act out and something's gonna go sideways.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, when, when you think about the violence throughout the country, you think about the gun violence in cities like Detroit and Chicago. I mean, Detroit averaging, you know, probably a murder a day, Chicago, maybe two murders a day. Um, when you think about these communities, you realize that PTSD has.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Impacted the community tremendously, even though we don't like to talk about it like, you know, mental health professionals won't really say that this is a real thing happening in the hood sadly, but it is, you know what I mean? You can't grow up in that type of gun violence and not be impacted by it in some way, say, form or fashion. And for me, what happened was after I got shot, I began to run this narrative in my head that if I found myself in a conflict, I would shoot first and 16 months later, that's what happened.

• 32:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And during this, and we're gonna, we're working up to that, but during this time, like, are you, like, tapping into the stash? Like, are you using it all or are you staying away? Are you seeing, like, the damage? Like, you know, you, you just described, you know, the, the crack and cocaine or a crack and heroin addicted dude? Like, are you scared off by that or are you partaking?

• 32:28Speaker 01

  No, at that point, at, at, by the time I was 17, I had a, a great understanding of what happens when you use drugs because when I was first into the culture, probably my first six months in, I became addicted to crack cocaine.

• 32:41Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Like lace joints, you know? Um, and I was fortunate to be able to, like, just go cold turkey, you know? And, and the, the thing is, it was for a very superficial reason, but I realized that, you know, even though I was making a lot of money, I was basically smoking it all up. And so I couldn't dress the way that I wanted to dress. Uh, but also ended up almost getting beat to death for messing up, you know, a dealer's money. And I just remember being in this cold bathroom floor and just like, wow, like, what kind of world do we live in where this happens to kids, you know?

• 33:18Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Without even thinking about my role in it, which was I smoked up all the drugs and all the profit. And, uh, so by the time I was 17, I had, and it didn't take me long to break the addiction. Like, I broke the addiction. I just went cold turkey. Um, but... Yeah, by the time I was seventeen, I had a full understanding of the ramifications. And the drug trade looked very different because the clientele who, when we first started, was, you know, still attractive women who were, you know, working in professional fields. The drugs had taken an impact on their lives where they've lost everything and, you know, fathers who at once were part of the household were no longer a household because they were

• 34:02Speaker 01

  addicted and they were spinning up all of the household money on drugs. So I saw the way that that drug devastated our community and destabilized it.

• 34:12Rich Roll?

  And did you have contact with, you know, the guys way up the food chain in the organization, the guys sitting at the top who are making the decisions?

• 34:21Speaker 01

  So never the guys sitting at the top. To this day, I don't know, I don't know. It was, I mean, there's a lot of different, like, high-level drug organizations there, but I had pretty great access up the food chain.

• 34:32Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And are you, at the time, are you looking at those guys like, that's how I want to roll someday? Like, you know, are you thinking, like, you have aspirations of, like, moving up the ladder?

• 34:41Speaker 01

  You know what? I had aspirations to make money. It was never really about status in that space in terms of, like, I mean, I rose through the ranks relatively quickly because I was a smart kid. So there were things that I thought of that the average guy just wasn't thinking of in terms of how do you run a drug house, you know, in a way that's efficient and that basically decreases the probability of police randomly riding down the street and saying that trafficking is happening. So I had a lot of those skillsets and I was rewarded for having those skillsets. And, but I'd never had ambitions to, like, to be the kingpin, you know. I mean, I couldn't even think about what that was at fourteen.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  It was just like, I want to make money, I want to dress nice, and I want to have pretty girls.

• 35:30Rich Roll?

  So the vision is sort of just what's right in front of you today, get through the week or whatever?

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:42Rich Roll?

  Alright, so you're walking around with all this post-traumatic stress, you're packing some heat, and it's just, you know, you're dynamite waiting to be let up, right?

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, it's the thing, like, when I see young men in the neighborhoods, now, because I'm always in neighborhoods, like, I think that's really important. I mean, I've just moved out here, so I'm still navigating my way through it, but when I'm home or when I'm in the neighborhood and I see these young guys and I see this kind of glossy-eyed stare that they have, and they're just trying to get through the moment, and they're wearing this mask of toughness, like, I realize that that was me, that I am them and they are me, and this is why I do the work that I do.

• 36:25Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm, yeah, you can identify completely with that experience. So, you find yourself in another altercation, and this time it's, you know, shoot first, ask questions later, be the first guy to pull, right?

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, um, July of 1991, roughly about 16 months after I was shot, I was DJing a party around the corner from where I lived, and somebody got shot in front of the party. And we got various different reports of who had been shot, who, you know, who had been hit. And what we discovered is that one of the conflicts involved one of the guys from our, you know, our neighborhood, you know, a guy we hung out with.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  But we didn't know to what extent anybody was hurt, harmed, or whatever, and we didn't know if it was like a beef going on, you know, and somebody's gonna come back and shoot at the party. So we all left the party with that energy of somebody just having been shot. We don't know what's going on.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  And I remember when I got to my street...

• 37:32Speaker 01

  A car rolled up, it was actually a truck rolled up and, excuse me, I'll repeat that part.

• 37:37Rich Roll?

  Sorry.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember, um, I remember going to my street and, you know, a truck rolled up. And, you know, somebody asked for directions and so even in that moment, I was just like on edge, you know, cause it's almost two in the morning, a lot has happened, you know, I've been drinking, you know, everybody would, we all had been drinking and partying. And then another car pulls up, um, and it was a guy in a car who bought drugs from us frequently and he was what we consider a good customer. Uh, a good customer is somebody who comes through and spends, you know, anything over forty, fifty dollars a pop. And so he's also what we call the runner. So in addition to him consuming crack cocaine, he also came and got the drugs for other people.

• 38:23Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  So it can vary, you know, sometimes it come maybe thirty or forty dollars, but then sometimes it comes three or four hundred dollars. So when he came this night, he had a whole bunch of money, like just literally in his hand. And he was like, you know, he wanted to make a considerable, you know, transaction, but I'm like, I don't do this for my house and you bring in two guys, I don't know, like who are these guys? And so we got into this conversation that quickly, you know, escalated into an argument. And that argument went from us arguing back and forth about them leaving to threats being exchanged. And I turned to, um, going to house and in that moment, I heard what I thought was somebody opening the car door.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  And that's when I turned and fired, what turned out to be several fatal shots, tragically ending the man's life. And, um, the, the man whose life that I'm responsible for taking, like he wasn't even a drug user, you know? Uh, I didn't, you know, I didn't know this then, but I know it now, he wasn't a drug user. Uh, he was intoxicated that night, but he wasn't a drug user. And basically he was just trying to be a friend to, uh, to a man who had a serious addiction, uh, to crack cocaine.

• 39:36Rich Roll?

  Hmm. So open and shut case, you know, how long before the cops show up? And, uh, you're in the, you're in the back of the patrol car.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  I got arrested, I think I got arrested like a day later. Um, I got turned in, uh, got, so I got arrested like a day later.

• 39:54Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  And, uh, you know, in that moment, are you thinking like?

• 40:01Rich Roll?

  It's done, like I'm over with, or are you thinking I'll be out, I'll be back out soon? Like, what was your awareness level of like what the future was gonna hold for you?

• 40:09Speaker 01

  In that, in that moment, I think I knew that it was, it was really over. I didn't want to accept it mentally. Um, I thought about different ways I can beat the case, you know, just being young and stupid, you'd like, oh, well, you know, maybe if there's no witnesses, I can beat the case, et cetera, et cetera. They had conflicting statements, you know, so I'm just thinking all of the, the, the most optimum, you know, optimum, um, possible outcomes and...

• 40:38Rich Roll?

  And the perspective on the fact that you like took a guy's life, like what was your sort of, you know, thinking and awareness around that at that time?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  In that moment, I knew, um, that I had done something horrible. And once I got arrested, like it really shifted from understanding that to fighting for freedom, you know, it was just like, you know, even, even the way the system is set up, which I really, it, it makes me, you know, feel empathy and compassion for victims because they don't really give the victims of any of these crimes an opportunity to really engage or to really hear from the person and, and to really sit down and talk to the person who was responsible so much.

• 41:23Rich Roll?

  No, it's the opposite of that, actually.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  And so when, when it came, you know, I was charged with open murder. Um, I ended up being sentenced to seventeen to forty years, a total of seventeen to forty years for second degree murder.

• 41:36Rich Roll?

  And so explain what that means.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  So that means that at a minimum, I would serve, um, seventeen years and I was guaranteed forty years if I didn't get paroled.

• 41:47Rich Roll?

  So...

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Forty year sentence.

• 41:50Rich Roll?

  Alright, so if you're, if you're in there and you're not, you're not acting, you know, you're, you're not like a solid citizen, you're looking at forty years?

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the more you act out, the more time is, the more time is added to your sentence. Um, and, and even back then, like they had good times. So if I would've, if I would've just went in and been a model guy in, inside, I would've been out of prison in about thirteen years. Um, but I wasn't. Like, I went to prison, I was bitter, I was angry, uh, was frustrated, I found myself getting in more and more trouble, accumulated a total of, um... About twenty-five misconducts my first five years in, was sent up to maximum security my first year in. I was in solitary confinement, um, my first year in. I got out, went back

• 42:40Speaker 01

  again. So, I wasn't like, um, a model person.

• 42:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  I had any stretch of the imagination.

• 42:48Rich Roll?

  But going in, it's that thing of, you know, I gotta survive here. So, I'm either gonna get bent over, or I'm gonna be the guy who's, you know, making the rules, right? You gotta establish yourself when you're walking in, what kinda, what kinda character you're gonna be in that environment, right?

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, you walk in, you're making the choice between being a lion or a lamb, you know? And it's a young, it's a young, testosterone-driven environment, very volatile, stabbing's happening on the yard every day, somebody's getting shanked, somebody's getting hit in the head with something, fights breaking out over the smallest thing. Um, I mean, the prison I was at was called the Gladiator School, you know, it was, cause that's how many stabbing's it was daily in the environment. And so, you know, I walked in with the mentality that I gotta survive, and I'm gonna be a lion, I'm not gonna be a lamb, and so...

• 43:39Rich Roll?

  What's the first thing you did to kind of establish that, when you got in?

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I got a lot of stuff.

• 43:45Rich Roll?

  (laughing)

• 43:47Speaker 01

  I would say it actually even preceded me going to prison, probably when I was in the county jail, and I got into a fight with, with, with a few guys, turned into kind of like a brawl-type situation. Um, and it was like two against three, and it was two of us primarily, um, against three other guys, and we got the best of them. And so, that kinda, you know, carried over to prison.

• 44:11Rich Roll?

  The work goes out.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  You know, yeah.

• 44:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  And so, then, when I got there, I also had people in prison that I knew, that I grew up with, and you know, they knew me from the streets, and, and knew my reputation in the streets. So, a lot of it, a lot of it kinda worked out, but I mean, I've done a lot of different stuff, you know? I don't wanna give all the jewels away, I really want people to buy the book, cause I think they'll get a clearer perspective of why things happen and how they happen.

• 44:34Rich Roll?

  Right. So, you get in, you're establishing, you know, you're gonna be, you're gonna be a lion, you're getting in all kinds of scuffs and trouble. Um, and then, you know, this sort of, uh, you know, I wanna talk about the solitary confinement aspect of it, because it's so, you know, unbelievably intense. Over the course of your, you were in for nineteen years, yeah?

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I did a total of nineteen years. Uh, I actually had, um, so- I entered prison with with all this energy, this anger and bitterness and I got into a lot of trouble. I got into a lot of conflicts. I got into a lot of conflicts with administration. And eight years into my sentence, I got into a serious conflict with an officer. And and at this point in my in my incarceration, you know, things had just started to look up. I had my security reduced. I was I had less than 10 years on my sentence, so I was on the other side of the hard part of the other sentence. And I got into this conflict with this officer who was very obnoxious, you know, very abusive of his authority. We had got

• 45:36Speaker 01

  into it like the prior week over a policy related to me going to the yard, etc. And the week after that initial interaction, we got into another conflict about me being able to use the bathroom. And that conflict escalated when he literally pushed me back into the bathroom when I tried to exit it. And then I ended up beating him up real bad. And to the point where he had to have surgery in front of the unit, he had to have the tracheal performed in front of the unit. And so they took me to solitary confinement. They charged me with assault on an officer, sentenced me to an additional two years in prison, and and determined the amount of time in solitary confinement. But that turned

• 46:18Speaker 01

  out to be four and a half years straight. Twenty-three hour lockdown, five days a week, 24-hour lockdown, other two days a week, three 10-minute showers a week. And then the recreation was to go outside to like a dog kennel.

• 46:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  So that was my world for four and a half years straight.

• 46:37Rich Roll?

  And you had you been in solitary prior to that incident for shorter stints? Or was that the first time that you were being introduced to that world?

• 46:45Speaker 01

  No, for the first the first few years of my incarceration, I did about three years in solitary.

• 46:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  So I had been in solitary for assault on the MA, assault on staff a couple of times. And then that was that was my third trip.

• 47:00Rich Roll?

  And when they put you in solitary, it's it's for an indeterminate amount of time, right? Like, they don't part of the head game is they don't tell you how long you're going to be in there. The idea is to kind of break you and and, you know, kind of crush, you know, any idea of hope.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's part of the control mechanism that they use and in addition to a few other things. But, you know, when I, when I look back on that experience, to me, that's probably one of the most torturous parts of being in solitary. It's not knowing when or if you'll ever get out. And, I mean, I was in there with guys who were in solitary for 20 years, you know? Um, and originally, I thought I would be in for maybe a couple of years and they'll let me out. But I ended up being there for four and a half years straight. And it was unlike anything I experienced the first time I went solitary.

• 47:55Rich Roll?

  So, when you're in there, can you, can you communicate with the people in the cells nearby? Like, i- i- is it noisy? Or, you know, like, what is it, what is the actual, you know, physical experience of being in that cell?

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Um, solitary is probably the noisiest part of the prison experience because the mental illness level in there is astronomical. And so you have at any given time several guys beating on doors, big steel doors, taking their brush and just beating it on the steel sink, which, um, basically echoes all through the chamber. Um, officers barking orders, coming in with the goon squad, you know, pepper spraying, you know, men and subduing them to the bed, by shackling them to the bed. So, it's a very, it's a very loud environment, um, excuse me.

• 48:50Rich Roll?

  That's all right.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  It's a very loud environment and the environment forces you to figure out different ways to communicate. And so, a couple of the things we would do is either we would lay on the floor and just talk beneath the door, uh, because that carried a little bit further.

• 49:09Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Uh, so sometimes, you know, whenever I was fortunate, I had a couple of times I was fortunate to have at least a decent enough neighbor across from me that I can Lay on the floor and just converse with about random stuff. But that was rare, you know, most of the guys around me had mental illness. Uh, another thing we would do is we would take a loose electrical socket. And if you take that a loose, then you can talk to people downstairs in the cell beneath you. And so it's kind of like our telephone system.

• 49:36Rich Roll?

  Like through the ducts, yeah.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, and some guys, they would talk through their toilets. They would like literally take all the water out their toilets and it allowed them to talk to guys in other cell cells.

• 49:47Rich Roll?

  Well, I think, uh, you know, again, I, I, I want to explore like how you, you know, mentally and emotionally weathered that experience, but in order to kind of understand that, I think, you know, we got to go to the story behind the story or create a little more additional context. And by that, I mean, you know, kind of talking about when, you know, when you sort of started to, uh, you know, think about your life and the potential for what lay before you in a new way in terms of, you know, sort of resigning yourself to being a product of the system versus taking more responsibility for, for your path and, and, and kind of investing in, in yourself, right?

• 50:28Rich Roll?

  Cause there was, there was a transition period or, or switch in your consciousness about how you were going to, you know, get through this experience and, and what you wanted your life to be like when you got out. So where did that begin and, and how did that, you know, start to manifest in your daily experience?

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, for me, it actually started earlier in my incarceration than I had originally thought about or had given credit to, uh, but it started with having amazing mentors. And these were guys who are serving life sentences. Some of them have died, some of them will be dying soon and, you know, most will die in prison because they all have life sentences with no parole. But they saw something in me that I didn't see in myself, you know, they saw, uh, leadership qualities and, and, you know, and redemptive qualities that I didn't even see. And so initially it started with them just, you know, other officers would be like, can you talk to this young guy? Cause I was very disobedient, very insolent toward officers.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  And, uh, they would talk to me and just try to, you know, talk me down, talk me off the edge, so to speak. And so. What they did is, cause I was very adamant about not listening to them. I just knew my life was over. I was like, you know, I'm gonna die in prison. They was like, you're not gonna die in prison. Like, you got numbers. And I'm like, at nineteen, I couldn't see two decades down the line. You know, I could barely see two weeks down the line, so. Uh, but what they realized that I liked to read, and so they started giving me books and challenging my thinking and challenging my ideas. And one of the most powerful books they gave me was Malcolm X's autobiography. Uh, because it became a model for what's possible that, you know, if you do some, the right things, you can turn your life around.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Uh, the second big thing that happened to me was I got a letter from a woman who said that she had raised a man whose life I was responsible for taking.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  So this, this woman who said she raised a man whose, uh, life I'm responsible for taking, reached out to me with this powerful letter about forgiveness and love. And, you know, she humanized, you know, him in a way that I hadn't had exposure to when I was in court. And that penetrated like my heart, you know. Uh, it wasn't a fix, you know, it wasn't like a quick magic pill to make everything go away, but it definitely pricked that heart space. So the, the mentors, they had reached me on a, you know, mental cerebral level. Like, they had got to me, uh, but then she got to me on an emotional and spiritual level. And the final thing was getting a letter from my son while I was in solitary confinement.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  After his mother told him, he, you know, why I was in prison. And like, at that point, I was like, you know, I need to figure out what to do with my life in a way that honors my responsibility as a father to my son. And I realized I was tired of hurting myself because my decisions was hurting not only the people who are victimized, but it was also hurting me. And I just challenged myself, it was like, you know, if you're gonna turn this thing around, here's what you need to do. You know, you need to make a commitment, you need to commit to yourself. And tell, you know, convince yourself that you're ready this time. Cause I had told myself, I'll never get in trouble again, I'll never go through this again.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Um, and then, once I was out of the immediate tornado of that trouble, it's like, okay, back to the same thing. And so this time, I just was like, you know, you need to figure it out. So I started journaling, you know, initially. Um, and that led to me writing, uh, books while I was in solitary. So those were some of the copalmechanism, and other things was just reading, being literate. I was fortunate, you know, the average reading level in, in prison is third grade. So I was fortunate to come in, you know, with a higher reading level and, and a great comprehension level. So I was able to take these books in and read them and, you know, uh, from political science to philosophy, those books began to shape, you know, shape me into the man I am today.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  But writing, which I believe is meditation on paper, uh, was probably the most impactful for me.

• 54:34Rich Roll?

  So when you're in solitary, you can get books?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, solitary, you can, you can order books from the library, which typically are never really available, but you can also buy books. If you have money on your, you know, in your commissary, you can buy books, uh, you can order them from different, back then, from different vendors. Now it's extremely hard to get books in prison, uh, because you almost have to order everything from Amazon. And so-

• 54:58Rich Roll?

  Oh, is that true? I didn't know that.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. They used to let you order from the publisher or from a local bookstore, but now it's just like, Amazon-

• 55:05Rich Roll?

  What's up with the library? Doesn't every prison have a library?

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Um, every prison has a, definitely every prison has a legal library. They're legally bound to have a law library. Um, and most prisons have some sort of library. Um, and, and the type of literature that's there is, it varies from prison to prison.

• 55:26Rich Roll?

  Right. Can you share, uh, the words that your son shared with you in that letter?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, in the letter which is contained in the book, my son just said, you know, "Dear Dad, my mom told me about you in prison for murder. Dad, don't kill again. Jesus, watch what you do. It's a sin." And, you know, I'm not a religious person. I'm very spiritual, but I'm not religious. But hearing those words come from my child, you know, definitely would be one of those things that I described as like a spiritual moment, you know, it's a spiritual, it's very emotional, but it was a spiritual moment that really grounded me because for the first time I was seeing through my son's eyes how he could possibly

• 56:14Speaker 01

  grow up to see me as this monster. And I just knew I couldn't lead this world without showing him an example of what a father is, what a man is.

• 56:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, you know, having that understanding of the cycle of trauma that you were the victim of through your mom. And on some level, I would imagine an awareness that you're perpetuating that cycle by, you know, becoming this person that your son, you know, is gonna sort of look to for the rest of his life as being this human being that perhaps is gonna catalyze a similar path in his own life.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I didn't want to have a negative influence on my son. And I mean, I saw enough of that where, I mean, 70% of children with an incarcerated parent end up in some form of incarceration. And I've seen, like, you know, when you're the popular gal, you had that reputation in the neighborhood, and your child, this is all they hear is just, you know, "Oh yeah, your father was this, or he shot this person, he shot that." You know, they can grow up to possibly emulate that. And I definitely didn't want him to emulate the path that I had taken. So, once I started writing and started journaling, I also would just send him different stuff that I hope would inspire him to take a different path.

• 57:27Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And how powerful, you know, that the woman, the godmother of the victim, you know, to forgive you. I mean, that's just, what a gift to be able to, you know, free up that emotional, spiritual space within yourself that allowed you to kind of flip that mirror a little bit and see yourself in a different way. I mean, without that, you know, I don't see it, you know, I don't see it going in a positive direction. It seems like that was a, you know, crucial aspect in what triggered you to, you know, move in a new direction.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  That letter, that letter is such a profound letter. It's one of the reasons I added it to the book at the end because I really wanted people to understand like what forgiveness looks like, what does that process look like? You know, forgiveness is an individual choice, you know, that, you know. But her letter was just so powerful and even, you know, even though, you know, I said I'm not a religious person. Her commitment to her faith and the ideas of what she believed to be right led her to write that letter. And I just found that to be amazing and powerful experience.

• 58:40Rich Roll?

  Have you gone in and seen her?

• 58:42Speaker 01

  I haven't yet. She's elder now. She's in, I think she's in Florida. And I just haven't had an opportunity to meet with her in person.

• 58:50Rich Roll?

  So beyond the Malcolm X autobiography, what were the other books that were instrumental for you?

• 58:58Speaker 01

  I would say Donald Goin's whole series. Donald Goin's was a writer out of Detroit. He wrote some of the grittiest, you know, socio-political novels that, you know, I've ever read. You know, he wasn't like this brilliant fancy literature writer, but he was a very honest, very raw and very vivid writer. So that influenced me as a writer. He, you know, his works influenced me as a writer.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Plato's Republic, like reading philosophy like became kind of a thing for me because if, one, it was challenging to me. But also it just caused me to step back and think about the world through a different lens, you know, and challenge myself based on my findings in that, you know, space. And I also read a lot of political science and world history and world culture. And so those things started helping me really understand the war on drugs. It started helping me understand mass incarceration, why things were, you know, the way that they were. Why when I look on the cell block, the majority of the guys in there look like me. They're black and they're brown. They're coming from inner city communities.

• 1:00:07Rich Roll?

  All the guards are white, though.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Um, primarily white. I mean, I've been around at some joints, they had black guards, but most of the up north joints were definitely primarily white.

• 1:00:15Rich Roll?

  And you're getting a head full of political science and justice, right? So this is, this is actually, you know, getting you in trouble in the short run, right? This is what's leading to some of these skirmishes with the guards.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, anybody that, that seeks to organize us out of prison.

• 1:00:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Whether it's a study, a study group, um, yeah, and I got in a lot of trouble, you know? And I mean, and I got some things I didn't get in trouble for that I was proud of. I think we utilized our resources to combat issues that we thought were unjust, so.

• 1:00:45Rich Roll?

  So you're in solitary confinement. You don't know how long you're going to be in there. Uh, you know, you're able to read, you're able to journal, you're, you know, sort of holding on to these letters that you're receiving. But what is the, you know, sort of strategy for just getting through it on a moment to moment, you know, hour by hour basis of weathering, you know, the emotional punishment that comes with that kind of experience?

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Well, you just, you just hit it, you know, it's moment by moment, you know, um, what, what I realized about trauma and, you know, hardship and adversity is if you can just get to the other side of the moment, you can make it, you can survive. But you have to get through the moment first. A lot of times we're just like focused on what happened in the past or what the future looks like. But it's really the moments where I believe the, the magic happens in terms of commitment to an idea or a goal or outcome. And it starts really with like saying, um, I'm just gonna get through this next piece. As I prepare myself for these longer things, but right now I have to deal with what's present.

• 1:01:50Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  And that's what I did.

• 1:01:52Rich Roll?

  And in terms of the, you know, the longer, uh, you know, the longer piece, the idea, were you starting to put together a vision or an idea of, you know, what you wanted your life to, to be like, what kind of man you wanted to be when eventually you were gonna get out?

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  I started jotting down ideas. Once I started taking writing serious, I knew I wanted to be a writer. Um, and I knew there were several, several different roles into that space, you know, and I wanted to write everything. Once I discovered I could actually write, I wanted to write everything. Uh, so I started planning and saying, okay, here's the things that I want to do and I would write them down in the journal. I'm, I'm big on writing down your ideas and your thoughts. Uh, and so I just started writing stuff down and, um. Kind of envisioning what a, what a life could look like beyond bars. And a lot of what I wrote down is, is, is come true.

• 1:02:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's no question. I mean, and then some, you know, I would imagine you couldn't have even imagined that your life would be as big as it is today, you know, it's, it's quite amazing.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  In some ways I did imagine it though, because I think that's where, that's where success starts. It starts with you believing that you're worthy of it. It starts with you thinking that it'll happen for you. It starts with you making a commitment, you know, to produce the outcomes that you desire in life. And, you know, it's always interesting because we're kind of enamored with the overnight success in our country. I mean, we live in a celebrity driven country.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  But the reality is no overnight success. It's just a lot of work that keeps you up overnight.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  But it's definitely not an overnight success. And so I believe in being very intentional about what I want in life. So I wrote those things down and I began to execute it once I got out.

• 1:03:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And when you're in, I mean, I would imagine you're being faced with

• 1:03:41Rich Roll?

  temptation on a daily basis, or maybe temptation isn't the right word, but you know, the, the sort of opportunity to get dragged into, you know, negative circumstances, you know, on the regular.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, prison doesn't stop being prison because you change and people don't start being negative because you change. So I was, I was always concerned about how am I going to navigate, you know, this volatile world with a positive perspective about life, you know? And basically what I did is I just do what I tell all people to do is you own your truth, other people will honor it. And so I made the commitment, you know, I talked to my core group of guys and was just like, you know, there's things that I'm no longer interested in. Like I want to live my life this, in this manner.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  And they supported it, you know, they even supported it to the extent that whenever there was an issue, they would deal with it as opposed to

• 1:04:36Rich Roll?

  They protect you, keep you out of it. That's pretty cool. Have you gone, have you gone back and, and visited some of these mentors that are still in?

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  So I can't go back as a visitor, but I've gone back inside to speak.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  So it's a whole

• 1:04:51Rich Roll?

  That had to be emotional.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  It was, it was, it was definitely, it was a mixture. It was a mixture of sadness because some of my friends were there, former bunkies, guys I grew up with, you know, seeing some of the guys who were now suffering from mental illness and just seeing that deterioration, that was super hard. But on the other hand, it was inspiring because when I went to the first prison up north in Michigan, I went there and it was during the beginning of the Flint Water Crisis. And after I finished doing my talk, these guys were like, hey, we want to donate money to this crisis. And these are guys who work, you know, for 23 cents an hour, make, some who may make like nine dollars a month. So going in and just

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  saying that not only were they inspired to do, to take a, you know, call to action, but they were also happy for me, you know, and, and, you know, I talk to my guys all the time. They email me through JP and they call me. I always have money on my phone for them to call, so.

• 1:05:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's beautiful, Matt.

• 1:06:04Rich Roll?

  So what happens when you get the notice that you're getting out?

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  Out of prison?

• 1:06:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  It was, it was so surreal. Like every step of the way, I was like, they're going to call me back and tell me it was a mistake. They're going to revoke parole.

• 1:06:22Rich Roll?

  Like it's another head game?

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, definitely.

• 1:06:24Rich Roll?

  They use like they're fucking with you or whatever, uh huh.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  But I walked out of prison, June 2010, June 22nd, 2010. My last day in prison was actually on my birthday. So I got out of prison at death on my birthday.

• 1:06:41Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And you walk out and you know, it's, it's, it's like there's a, it seems like everything kind of happened in rapid succession. Cause that wasn't that long ago. So much has happened since then, but you know, what's the first thing you do? It's like, how do you start to put the pieces back together? I mean, you know, coming out of this situation, you know, look, the prison system is supposed to be punitive, but it's also supposed to be rehabilitative and we know it's not, you know? But on some level, you took responsibility for your own rehabilitation and you walk out, you know, I, I would presume on some level with a, with a clear mind and an idea of like how you wanted to carry yourself into the world.

• 1:07:23Rich Roll?

  So how do you begin to put that into practice and, and put those pieces together?

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  I mean, it has to start before you get out of prison. And for me, I knew that I couldn't wait till I got out to try to figure out what it was that I wanted to do, that I had to start putting the work in and preparing myself for life. I knew that it's going to be difficult finding employment, um, which is kind of like one of the major building blocks for starting a fresh life. And so I started my own publishing company, published my first book from prison. Got sued by the Department of Corrections after I published that book.

• 1:07:56Rich Roll?

  Because?

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Because they wanted me to pay for the cost of my incarceration. And, uh, I didn't, I didn't have the money to pay them, but they sued me anyway.

• 1:08:04Rich Roll?

  Wait, I don't understand. So pay for your, pay for your incarceration with the proceeds of the book?

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So they thought, what happened was I was going through the cover design for the, um, with a graphic designer and my business partner. And so when she sent it in, they assumed that I had got like a major book deal from a major publisher. They didn't realize that I started, you know, co-started this company, uh, along with my partner on our own. And so. Just the idea that they would sue somebody who's trying to do something positive with their life was crazy to me, but.

• 1:08:38Rich Roll?

  Is that like a Son of Sam thing? Like you're not supposed to profit off your?

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  It's not a Son of Sam thing. It's a restitution for the cost of incarceration thing.

• 1:08:47Rich Roll?

  So it's not enough that they're doing this to you now you gotta pay for it too?

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  Right. And so like even if you if you were inside and you had a family member who, you know, passed and they had, you know, you was the beneficiary of their insurance, they can take 90% of that. And they will take 90% of it if possible. So that's what they attempted to do to me. They didn't get any money because I didn't, one, I made sure we didn't really make any money to give. But that was a deep lesson for me because I was just like, you know, even when you're trying to do something positive, the world can conspire to stand in the way of that. And that's basically how that ended up happening.

• 1:09:30Rich Roll?

  So then, so then how do you move forward from that?

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  I mean, I was just determined, you know, I knew that this, you know, the fact that they were even suing me, you know, said something to me that they probably wasn't saying. I'm like, I'm doing something that, you know, worthy of them wasting their money in the courtroom, wasting taxpayers' money in the courtroom. But after that, I just stayed focused, you know, I prepared myself for life after. When I got out, you know, I didn't come out to, you know, a cheering family or whatever. I came out to my girlfriend and my son. And, but I immediately started working from the day I stepped out. Like I wanted

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  to do something different, you know. And I'll never forget those first moments of just breathing in fresh air, even though it was the same air on the other side of the fence. Somehow it just felt fresher.

• 1:10:31Rich Roll?

  And how did righting my wrongs come together for you?

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  So the way that writing my wrongs came together is I started a mentoring program in Detroit called Living Peace. And I wrote a companion book to that called, uh, Living Peace, A Youth Guide For Turning Hurt Into Hope. And through that experience, I started learning about all these amazing kids who had been told that they'll never amount to anything, told that they'll end up in prison and juvenile and, um, I realized that I had a responsibility to them, you know, to really tell what I call is our story because we all grew up with different, you know, with the same backgrounds, even though we were in different neighborhoods and

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  different parts of the city. But, you know, I just felt it was important to tell our truths.

• 1:11:22Rich Roll?

  And so you got, you were able to get a, like a major publisher behind that book?

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Well, I originally self-published.

• 1:11:29Rich Roll?

  You did, oh, and then it just tracked well and then you ended up going, like re-releasing it with a, with a publishing house?

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  So I did, I did a few things that, uh, allowed me to release it mainstream publisher. Um, one was just really having a clear vision about what I wanted to do. Um, and then the other part was just, uh, working to make sure that the self-published book got in the right hands of people who would actually read it. And so, you know, I, I did a TED Talk around that time and that TED Talk became one of the top talks of 2014. I put, I originally released the book in 2013. Came one of the top talks and after that, people started reaching out to me from all over the world.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  Uh, did another talk shortly after that and one of, uh, Oprah Winfrey's producers was there and she ended up getting the book into Oprah's hands and so Oprah read it and wanted to interview me and so once that happened, I was, I reached out to one of my friends like, hey, I need an agent, you know?

• 1:12:34Rich Roll?

  It just blows wide open. How did that, I mean, it's, it's crazy how the, you know, in lockstep, all those things happen. I mean, that TED Talk has, you know, well over a million views. I don't know how many it has now, but, you know, powerful, powerful talk, but how do you even get on Ted's radar? Like, how does that even come together? You know what I mean? Like, you're coming out, I mean, it's like, look, you're coming out of- Prison in Detroit, long time, you've done some writing, but like that's a, you know, that's a leap from going to the TED stage.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like who's, who's paying attention to what you're doing? Like what angel is looking out for you?

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:07Rich Roll?

  You know, it's, it's like you, you had mentioned earlier, like, you know, sometimes when you're trying to do good, the, the universe will conspire to, you know, beat you down or defeat you. Conversely, you know, sometimes the universe shows up to, to support you when your heart and your mind is in the right place, you know, and you have faith and you're putting the work in.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm a firm believer in this. That's what's hap- what happened is that the universe conspired to support me and my work and my effort and to see the bigger vision of. But one of the first people who really realized that what I was doing was bigger than the spaces I was working in was the director of MIT Media Lab.

• 1:13:41Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  Joy Ito, who actually, um, gave me a, a fellowship at MIT Media Lab.

• 1:13:48Rich Roll?

  So how did that happen?

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Uh, we met after some work I was doing in Detroit I had won an award for. And, um, and he talks about that in, in the, in the, uh, preface of the book or the foreword of the book. Um, but he was there to figure out how he can, you know, he and the staff and, I mean, the faculty and students could really engage communities around issues that mattered to them. And so they were coming into Detroit at a meeting and people were kind of misleading him about where Detroit was because this like Detroit has been hot for the last few years in terms of like people moving there and, you know, artists moving there and investors, et cetera, et cetera. And they just were misrepresenting the facts about Detroit.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  And so I spoke up and from that moment forward, he and I ended up developing this relationship. And we organized a hackathon together in Detroit. Um, and at the end of that hackathon, he offered me a fellowship at MIT Media Lab. And it was through that network of, of incredible people. That I was introduced to the TED community and TED eventually invited me to do a talk at their 30th anniversary.

• 1:14:57Rich Roll?

  Right, that's amazing. You know, for those that don't know, MIT Media Lab, like unbelievably prestigious, you know, organization. It's almost like a think tank for brilliant minds trying to solve the world's problems. And you're an interesting, you know, kind of unlikely choice to be a fellow there because most of these people are engineers or, you know, software coders and, you know, kind of techie type people, right? But you're, you're basically a community activist. But I like the idea of trying to understand better how you can impact communities on a grassroots level. So I can see the thinking there and the rationale. So, you know, in your experience of, of working at MIT, like what came out of that?

• 1:15:39Rich Roll?

  Like what kind of solutions were you brainstorming and, and workshopping there? And what is the result of that? Are you still involved? Are you still?

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  I still, I still work with the director indirectly now. My fellowship is over with now.

• 1:15:53Rich Roll?

  When were you there?

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  I was there from, I actually started the fellowship in, I think, 2012 and it officially ended in 2015. It took me a while to figure out like the timeline of it because it was new. It was something new that the director came up. He was just took over as the director there. But the, the interesting thing is like, I'm actually a nerd though. Like a lot of people didn't realize and I'm like, I'm, I was a lot more in tune and in touch with tech than most people would think considering I was gone for two decades.

• 1:16:27Rich Roll?

  You had to be a quick study when you came out. I know you talk about like being Fred Flintstone, being transported to the Jetsons age, you know, coming out of prison.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was mind blowing just to see the, the way technology moved, the way things worked in the world. But what I learned from my experience at MIT Media Lab is that a lot of stuff is really about iteration and, and innovation, right? And it's like, how do you take these materials and these ideas and shape them into something that can impact the world? And what I realized is in prison, like we were innovating to survive and we were constantly iterating on, you know, how do you create, you know, things within an environment to make your stay a little bit more bearable? So I took a lot of that mindset to the, um... A lot of that mindset to the lab. And so when I was able to work with other people, it was easy to just kind of realize that,

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  okay, really, we're designing through just deductive, you know, reasoning, just like we had all these different approaches. I'm like, wow, this is what we did in prison, and this is what we did in the streets. And I realized that, you know, we have an opportunity to show how these worlds really intersect. And so I did a couple of things at the lab that I'm really proud of. One is I started a project called the Atonement Project that use visual arts as a means to facilitate restorative justice conversations between victims of violent crime, you know, men and women who were convicted of violent offenses.

• 1:17:59Rich Roll?

  Right, like what you just spoke to earlier on about like trying to enhance the communication between victim and perpetrator.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  And the second thing I did is I did a prison hackathon at the lab where I came up with five design challenges based on how we survived in prison. And then I had the faculty and staff participate to see if they can come up with solutions. And they weren't able to solve any of the things in the two hours, a lot of time that we had that guys in prison could solve, literally within 30 seconds. So that was, that was an interesting learning experience for me. It was a great learning experience for them, but it also helped me think about how do we, the world we live in, where we have, we trust other people to label what's good

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  and bad, what's, you know, salvageable versus what's rubbish, what's genius versus what's, you know, lower levels of intelligence. And so, you know, being able to be in an environment where these amazing thinkers couldn't figure out strategies that people who aren't given credit for being thinkers can figure out was just a really humbling experience.

• 1:19:10Rich Roll?

  That's amazing. Wow, that's, that's really cool.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:13Rich Roll?

  Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's really cool. Um, you know, and just thinking about like your trajectory. You know, one of the things you talk about is there's kind of these three stages that you had to go through to, you know, repair yourself. Acknowledgement, apology, and atonement, right? Sort of the three stages of reconciling your experience and trying to move forward. But what do you think it is? I mean, obviously, you know, you're a self-acknowledged nerd, you're literary, you love books, and that was a crucial key component for you being able to, you know, get out and become the person you've become, and that sort of leveraged by the mentors that you had inside.

• 1:19:58Rich Roll?

  But, you know, we're looking at a system in which, what, over 2 million people are being warehoused every year, and, you know, so few are coming out with any kind of sense of rehabilitation whatsoever. So before we get into the broader talk about, you know, the systemic ills of our prison system, you know, what do you think it is about you that allowed you to be able to do this when so many others can't?

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  I mean, it's a couple of things, you know, just determination. Like, I was determined not to just become another statistic. I was determined to be an example for my son, that even when you make a poor decision that lands you in a hellish existence, that you can actually turn that thing around if you commit it to it. If you make a commitment that you're willing to stick by, you can produce different outcomes. If you master your thinking, you can really attract into your life the things that you want and desire. And so, there's a lot of things that were like the drivers, but then I was also literary. Like, to me, that's like one of the most important pieces of the puzzle, because I was able to absorb the information that my mentors were sharing with me.

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  I was able to challenge ideas, my own ideas and the ideas of the system itself. Uh, because I was literate enough to understand how, you know, different so- systems are building, what the motivation on, I learned how to research things, library, to help me better understand it. Um, and then it's just grace, you know, the grace of the universe, lining up with, you know, positive thinking, like, you know, I can never not honor, like, the grace of the universe and, and supporting me in that way.

• 1:21:39Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And when you think about the system as a whole, if you could, uh, you know, if you, if, if you could change it, and I know a lot of your activ- activism is around trying to change it.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:52Rich Roll?

  You know, where do we begin with that? What are the changes that we need to make right away? And what are some of the long-term changes that, that need to get implemented to start to, you know, reverse this train that we're on?

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  You know, I, I used to have this thought, you know, I had a lot of optimism when President Obama was in office, that we can get a lot of the reform bills passed and, I mean, we, we done a lot of amazing work, you know? When I, I first started working with an organization called Cut Fifty, uh, through Dream Corps, um, was not Cut Fifty through Dream Corps, but Dream Corps is the umbrella organization that housed this tip called Cut Fifty. Uh, we, we, we, um, curated the largest summit on criminal justice reform, um, in this country.

• 1:22:42Speaker 01

  And, and that, when we did that, it was just amazing to see that both parties were willing to work together on this key issue. Uh, we literally was working hand in hand with, uh, New Genrich and, you know, Koch Industries and all these people who-

• 1:23:00Rich Roll?

  On the other side of the aisle.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  On the side of the aisle, that people wouldn't even think would be as progressive as they were. And I realized that actually the right party was a lot more aggressive on these issues than anybody else, than, than, than the left was. Um, but President Obama, the way that he, you know, utilized his platform to address the issue and, you know, kind of share things that- You know, really mattered to us like that was, you know, powerful. So it gave me a lot of optimism. In terms of where we at today, I'm not so sure.

• 1:23:31Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  Because the current, uh, head of office doesn't inspire me to believe that he'll think human interests over money interests first.

• 1:23:42Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:44Rich Roll?

  Well, hopefully, uh, hopefully over the years, it'll start, that pendulum will start to swing back in the other direction.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, in the meantime, we just have to keep fighting. I think, I think there is something that everybody can do, you know, and that's the other part is like, we can't always wait for politicians to fix it. You know, we have to think about what kind of policies we want passed through. How do we want those policies handed down? That's very important, but we also got to think about what kind of men and women we want returning to society. And what is our role in ensuring that they're getting the resources that are necessary to prepare them for life after prison?

• 1:24:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think the number is something like six hundred and thirty thousand or something like that are, are being released annually. So, you know, these people that were warehousing, they're coming back, right? So what kind of people are, are, you know, are we welcoming back into our communities? And how prepared or equipped are we to make sure that they can, you know, get, not only get on their feet, but become productive members of society? And right now, we, we don't have much to offer in that regard, do we?

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, prison in America is big business.

• 1:24:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and more and more privatized.

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's, there, the private prisons with, you know, the exploitive nature of everything associated with it. Like, there's a profit motive to keep people incarcerated. And, you know, there's a film called Thirteenth that I really encourage, you know, viewers to go check out.

• 1:25:12Rich Roll?

  Incredible movie.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  Uh, because what Ava did, Ava DuVernay, who was the brilliant producer of that film, producing director of that film, um.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  What she did is she showed the connection between the 13th amendment, which was the amendment that was supposed to have freed men and women who were enslaved in America. And when you watch that, you realize that there's all these different connections that we don't just normally make. You know, the contributions that Alex makes to our policy changes. Just the way that the laws are written to impact disadvantaged people. You know, the discrepancy between powder cocaine and crack cocaine and ridiculous drug laws. So it's stuff like that that I think that the more we have conversation around,

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  the more easier it is for us to see a world where big business doesn't dictate justice.

• 1:26:13Rich Roll?

  And the extent to which so many people are either, that are incarcerated are either mentally ill or have substance abuse problems. You know, and these things need to be decoupled from other varieties of crime and treated in a different way, in a rehabilitative way.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'm a big advocate of ending the use of long-term solitary confinement, largely based on my experience of seeing what happens to men who have mental illness, who actually make up the majority of people in solitary confinement. And I just think it's a form of torture. I think it's something that we don't talk about. I think mental illness is something that we're not even comfortable talking about it just in general, let alone as it relates to somebody incarcerated. So if we can decriminalize mental illness,

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  make sure that when men and women are incarcerated, they're getting the tools that they need to prepare for life after. Decriminalize most of the drugs. I just think it's ridiculous that adults can't do what they want to do with their bodies. They're adults. I mean, you know, people drink alcohol every day, smoke cigars and cigarettes. And that's been decriminalized. So I think if you just decriminalize a lot of the drugs, but also to ensure that men and women who aren't affiliated with that get the treatment they need while they're in the substance abuse treatment, whatever.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Whatever treatment is going to provide them with the best opportunity to succeed is something that I think we should be thinking about.

• 1:27:49Rich Roll?

  And it seems like it would be pretty easy to start to integrate that into these systems. I mean, it costs money, but, you know, it's so obvious.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  But, you know, the interesting thing is that, you know, we think about the cost, right? It costs way more than incarcerate somebody than to educate them.

• 1:28:07Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  And so if we, if we can re-shift our focus toward education, toward, you know, prevent people with the real skill sets and tools that they need, I think it'll be dramatically different outcome.

• 1:28:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. We gotta start winding this down, because I know you got another meeting, but I can't let you go without asking you a couple last questions. The first is, how do you now, when you think back on, you know, the, the act that got you incarcerated, you know, what is your perspective on, on, you know, that individual's life? And how do you think about that in the context of, you know, acknowledgement, apology, and atonement?

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  You know, when I, when I think about David's life, I, I definitely have a deeper perspective than I had 26 years ago. I know that David was a, a loving husband, a father of, you know, I think three children. And that he sounds like just a cool, cool guy. Like he really meant a lot to a lot of people. And that emboldens my work, you know? I do a lot of work with inner-city kids that's, you know, growing up environments where gun

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  violence is, is prevalent. And knowing who, you know, whose life I'm responsible for taking, and knowing that there's a, there's an opportunity for me to do the type of work that... His life won't be in vain.

• 1:29:53Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  And that people can learn from our journey, learn from our story. Learn what it means to be empathetic and compassionate toward other people. Learn how to resolve conflict without gun violence or physical violence or of any sort. Whenever possible.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Like, that's the legacy, you know, is that our story has helped change a lot of lives, you know, and it's helped people rethink.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  Gun violence has the quickest reaction to anger, you know, so that's what I think about the most.

• 1:30:31Rich Roll?

  You've been able to overcome unspeakable circumstances to, you know, be sitting here today, to take the stage at TED, to speak at the Milken Conference, to, you know, spend, you know, do a three-hour interview with Oprah and have her, you know, spread your message across the world in only the way that she can do. And, you know, it's just, it's incredible, the arc of your life. And it speaks to, you know, the power of the individual to overcome whatever circumstances. But if someone's listening to this and they find themselves in a rut, you know, maybe they're not in prison, but they're in a prison of their own self-creation or of their mind or of their emotions. And they're trying to claw their way out or figure a way out.

• 1:31:16Rich Roll?

  Like, what can you sort of impart and leave people with as we wrap this up?

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  I mean, the thing I would say is that the absolute worst prison is the one we erect in our own minds. And we live in a culture that's constantly trying to lock us into unhealthy ideas about who we are, what we're capable of, who we aren't. And I think that the more we mentally free ourselves individually, the more work we can do collectively. People try to say that I'm an anomaly or that, you know, it's...

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  You know, I'm a rarity, but in reality, I know a lot of incredible men and women who have got out of prison, or they may not have done Oprah, but it doesn't mean that what they do doesn't have the same value, you know, the same level of contribution that they make to our community. Um, that's, any of us can do that, you know, we all have a responsibility to do it. Like, we, you know, we have to learn how to wrap our arms around our brothers and sisters. We have to have those conversations that are comfortable. Um, we have to really think about how our actions impact other people. And so, that's, that's what I would say.

• 1:32:34Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. That's a good place to end it, man. Thanks for your time.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Well, thanks for having me.

• 1:32:39Rich Roll?

  I appreciate it, Shaka. Uh, if you're inspired by Shaka, which I'm sure you are, uh, he's an easy guy to find on the internet, Shaka Senghor, pretty much everywhere you look. I'll link up, uh, your Oprah interview and your TED Talk and a whole bunch of other, you know, stuff about you in the show notes here for people that wanna take it deeper. And, uh, much love, man. You're inspiring and, and I wish you well and, and, uh, only want, uh, wind in your sails as you spread your message, man. You're doing, you're doing amazing things and it's a privilege to talk to you.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm honored to be here. Um, thank you for taking the time out to read, uh, Righting My Wrongs and for the listeners, that's writing with a W.

• 1:33:19Rich Roll?

  That's right.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Uh, get a chance to check that out. Share your thoughts. I'm very accessible on social media. I respond to all of my own social media, so, uh, tweet at me, Shaka Senghor, and let me know what you thought of the interview. And if you have any questions, uh, feel free to ask them via social media and we'll respond.

• 1:33:36Rich Roll?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  All right. Thanks for having me.

• 1:33:38Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  Peace.

• 1:33:39Rich Roll?

  Thanks.

• 1:33:42Rich Roll?

  All right, we did it. What'd you guys think? I told you it was heavy, right? It's pretty intense, but I think it's also uplifting. It's quite a powerful parable for the power of the human spirit to transcend and to really channel pain and trauma, uh, and turn it into something that can be of benefit to many people in a really, truly inspiring way. And so, I applaud Shaka for the journey that he has undertaken and the work that he continues to do. You can learn more about Shaka at shakasenghor.com. It's S-H-A-K-A-S-E-N-G-H-O-R.

• 1:34:21Rich Roll?

  And definitely check out his book, Writing My Wrongs. It's an incredible read. You will not be disappointed. As always, please make a point of checking out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com for this. I got tons of links, including his TED Talk and all kinds of other cool stuff, a couple of articles about his new media company that I think you guys are gonna enjoy exploring. Also, I want to tell you guys about our new meal planner. I'm so proud of this service. It's really amazing and extraordinary. Essentially, when you sign up, you get access to thousands of plant-based recipes, unlimited meal plans and grocery lists. Everything is totally personalized and customized based on your goals and your food preferences

• 1:35:01Rich Roll?

  and your allergies and your time constraints. We even have grocery delivery in 22 metropolitan areas and growing, and 24/7 customer support from a team of experts. It's really quite something. I have to tell you, I'm really proud of it. We're getting amazing feedback from the people that are using it. I love all the Instagrams that people are sharing from the recipes. So, essentially, if you're stuck, if you want to start eating healthy, if you want to start incorporating more plant-based dishes into your daily life, or perhaps you're even a longtime plant-based or vegan person, but you've just run out of inspiration and you already have all the cookbooks, this is exactly what you've been looking for. And the greatest thing about

• 1:35:44Rich Roll?

  it is that it's so affordable, just $1.90 a week. And I just love that because it's so democratic, essentially the price of a cup of coffee every week, and access to all of this incredible information. So, I stand behind it 110%. I'm just so proud of this. If you haven't checked it out yet, please go to meals.richroll.com or just click on Meal Planner on my website on richroll.com and have a look. Also, I want to mention that Plant Power Ireland is quickly approaching. We still have a few spots left, July 24 through 31. We are all going to be descending on this incredible manor on 90 acres in County Cork. It's called

• 1:36:25Rich Roll?

  Ballyvilan. It's really beautiful. Julie and I scoped it out last year. It's just, I'm so excited. And essentially, this experience is seven days of transformation. We're gonna have a lot of fun. We're gonna do all kinds of cool stuff that I think you guys are gonna enjoy, but it's also gonna be work. It's intended to really transform your life. So, we're gonna cook, we're gonna eat, we're gonna run, we're gonna meditate, we're gonna do tea ceremony, we're gonna have really intense workshops around everything from Creativity, to relationships, to business, to nutrition, we're gonna have Ayurvedic treatments. It's gonna be something else. I gotta tell you guys, we've done two of these trips to date. Both of them were in England. This is our first time going to Ireland.

• 1:37:08Rich Roll?

  And we've built a really beautiful community out of this. Everybody who has attended our past events have stayed connected through Facebook. They even visit each other. And it's a really beautiful thing. So if this sounds like something that would interest you, go to ourplantpowerworld.com for information and you can find out and sign up and do all that kind of stuff there. Also, I send an email out every week. It's called Roll Call. It's essentially five or six things that I've come across over the course of the week. Usually articles I've read, documentaries I've watched, videos I've looked at, a new product. You know, no gimmicks, no, I'm not trying to sell you anything. There's no affiliate links in this, just good quality, solid content. So if you would like to receive that, it goes

• 1:37:50Rich Roll?

  out every Thursday. You can subscribe by going to richroll.com/subscribe or just entering your email address in any of those little windows that you find on my website. And when you're on my site, we also have signed copies of Finding Ultra and The Plant Power Way and This Cheese Is Nuts. We've got t-shirts, we've got tech tees, we've got all kinds of cool swag and merch to meet your plant power needs. So check that out. If you would like to support this show and my work, there's a couple of ways to do it. Share it with your friends and on social media. That's easy. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe. Perhaps that's the most powerful, potent and important one. Click that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or on whatever platform you enjoy your podcast content.

• 1:38:33Rich Roll?

  And we also have a Patreon for those who want to support my work financially. And thank you so much to everybody who has done that. I want to thank everybody who has helped put on the show today. Jason Camiello for audio engineering and production and show notes and helping me with the ad copy and the scripts and the WordPress page. He's doing a lot, doing a great job, Jason. Thank you. Shawn Patterson, he designs all the graphics, the graphic assets that I use on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter for the show. Thank you so much, Shawn. And theme music, as always, by Analemma. So I think if you take one thing away from this show today, it is the power of forgiveness and it's about living in gratitude and service.

• 1:39:15Rich Roll?

  I think probably most people who are listening to this show have not had to suffer through the circumstances that Shaka has endured. And if he can meet that challenge and overcome it and transform his life in as dramatic fashion as he has, I think it is inspirational for all of us to understand that we all have that inherent power within ourselves to take that next step, to improve our lives and to give of ourselves and service to others. So perhaps meditate on that and I will see you guys back here in a couple of days. Thanks for the love. Peace. Plaids.