KHC 181 - Andy Glaze

Andy Glaze - ultramarathon runner, firefighter/battalion chief, and mental health advocate known for his incredible consistency in running, often logging 100+ miles per week for years - and his upbeat mantra “Smile or you’re doing it wrong.” Join us for a conversation about Andy’s love for running, the process of writing his new book, “Smile, or You're Doing it Wrong: A Journey from Rock Bottom to Redemption”, recovery from addiction and PTSD, and more! Follow Andy: https://www.instagram.com/amglaze/ Listen on: Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3XCm31n Apple Podcast: https://apple.co/3Dm6ClE Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Timestamps: 00:00:00 – Intro & a Life Long Goal to Help People 00:13:53 – Smile or Your Doing it Wrong, Positivity, and 100 Mile Weeks 00:24:00 – A Love for Being Alone & Nature 00:32:18 – Growing the Audience of Ultra Races 00:38:07 – China: Andy’s Favorite Race 00:41:21 – Connections Through Running with Other Races 00:48:39 – Moab 240: The Most Miserable Race Andy’s Ran 00:52:03 – Ray Sanchez: an Old School Ultra Runner Legend 00:57:06 – Inspired by Hard Working People and Inspiring Others to Race 01:02:33 – What Inspired Andy to Write a Book 01:05:59 – Overcoming Childhood Struggles & PTSD 01:20:09 – Andy’s Goal with the Book: Smile 01:22:55 – Goals with Running: Destination Trail Races & New Experiences 01:30:32 – Andy’s Cocodona 2026 Predictions (Life Changing Races) 01:36:00 – F**k, Marry, Kill: Winning an Ultra, Fighting a Fire, Recording an Audio Book 01:38:11 – David Goggins Mindset & Memes 01:42:58 – Therapy Through Journaling 01:48:49 – The Bow Shop & Getting Out of Your Comfort Zone 01:54:17 – 2 Guests Andy Glaze Would Like to See on the Podcast & Final Thoughts Thank you to our sponsors: Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 10% your order LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Cameron Hanes?

  We are live. This is the Keep Hammering Collective. I'm with Andy Glaze. Smile or you're doing it wrong. Dude, you are famous.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know about that, but thank you for having me.

• 0:27Cameron Hanes?

  You are famous and I'm pumped you're here.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Well, I'm, it's been a fun two days.

• 0:31Cameron Hanes?

  Ah, seeing your face, your big smile across the table. It's like, uh, I don't know. This is, you know, this picture on your book here, I'll show it. Like that is, anytime anybody thinks of you, I think they think of that image right there.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  I also.

• 0:47Cameron Hanes?

  One very similar. It's, uh, yeah, pretty amazing. I mean, the life you've created, the life from the outside in. So I can only speak to what I see from the outside and it looks, you know, I know you've talked about different things going on, different challenges, but like from the outside in, you seem like, you know, the happiest, most positive, uh, best human to be around. And it's just, uh, it's been really special spending this time with you. So I want to thank you.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  No, thank you for having me. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I try to push that positivity because I think that it makes everybody better when you, uh, you know, push positivity. So, and the picture on the shirt is my dad, which after he died, I, every race I did, I wore a picture of him on my shirt. So it's like, I love that picture even more because then he, he gotta be on my book.

• 1:42Cameron Hanes?

  Man, that is, that is powerful. And so he died, what, a couple of years ago now?

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, of cancer. So, um, but yeah, he's on a big fishing trip and he's, he's smiling in the shirt. And then I'm smiling. It's like, you know, it's, yeah, I mean, that's.

• 1:57Cameron Hanes?

  Full circle. That's what it's all about right there. Um, how has it been?

• 2:04Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, losing your dad, how, what has changed? You know, we're grown men.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:09Cameron Hanes?

  But still, you know, I lost, I lost mine, I guess. So 2010, so what is that, 16 years, so I would have been 42. And how old were you?

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Uh, I guess I would have been like 45.

• 2:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so I mean, we're supposed to be like tough, you know, but man, for me, it was really, really difficult. How has it been for you?

• 2:30Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, it's been a challenge. Um, I mean, he was my best friend and my sounding board. And I think, you know, one of the hardest things is just not having somebody to call to say, hey, should I do this? Or, hey, is this a good idea? Or, hey, I'm about to make this big financial decision. Like, what would you do? Cause he was a businessman, so, um, or hey, taxi. I mean, everything that you think about as a, as a grown man that you would ask your dad about, like, all of a sudden, you're the man now. You're the one that has to make all those decisions and it, it's hard. And then just missing him, you know, I have my kids and I want them to have a granddad, but like, you know, they only got to see him when they were small and you know, that's hard too.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  So, um, I still have my mom though, so positive, positive, on a positive note. But, uh, yeah, it's, it's not easy losing your dad.

• 3:21Cameron Hanes?

  No, for sure. And, uh, I think you mentioned your mom. Tomorrow, there's a half marathon and 10K and things in your hometown. Isn't she doing one of those races?

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, she, she wants to do the 10K, but she can't find any friends to do it with her. So she, I'm like, just do it by yourself, mom, you'll meet someone. She's like, no, I'm gonna do a 5K with my friends. So, yeah, she, uh, she's out, she's gonna be out doing it. And then my, my families, they're gonna be doing the, the 10K, so.

• 3:47Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:48Cameron Hanes?

  That's your kids and your wife?

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So that'll be fun for them.

• 3:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's great. Well. We've had an awesome couple of days. Um, how has it been like from your perspective?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Well, so I mean, I came up here and I told Cam, uh, I need a hundred miles this week and I'm a little, I'm a little behind. I was a little under the weather on Monday and Tuesday. And so, you know, we've gotten 30 miles so far, 30 hard miles. And, uh, you know, so that was pretty cool. Like him helping me, you know, get my hundred mile, uh, week, which will be, uh, my six year, yeah, six years of running over a hundred miles.

• 4:24Cameron Hanes?

  That's amazing, dude.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's been fun. And then cold plunging, sauna, all that stuff. I gotta shoot a bow today and get a bow. So, um, yeah, it's been, it's been like an amazing vacation, you know, from, from life.

• 4:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, uh, well, what I've noticed is the community has really been keyed on on you being, being here, you know? Everybody pays attention. They know what's going on. It's a small, little community here in Eugene, Springfield. But everybody's been looking for Andy Glaze because, uh, we see people like today. We're running along, uh, West Amazon Parkway, coming down off Spencer's Butte, heading to South Eugene High. And, uh, I could see this guy and his girlfriend or wife up there and they were like looking. So I could tell they're, they're, you know, trying to track us down or track you down. And he even said that, uh, he's at a coffee shop earlier today and he asked some random guy, if he was Andy Glaze, he must've looked like you.

• 5:21Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, the community's definitely been looking for you and it's cool.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  We, we've taken a few group, group photos, I think, in the last two days.

• 5:29Cameron Hanes?

  Even, even at South Eugene on the track, there was a high school kids there training. And, you know, one of the, those girls listened to your podcast with Sally.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. That was cool. So it's always good to, to reach that younger generation, you know?

• 5:44Cameron Hanes?

  How has it been to be like, to be this public persona? How has it been? What's it like for you?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it's weird because I didn't like look, I, it wasn't a goal. I wasn't like, oh, I want to be famous on the internet or anything like that. I just started making videos and they started taking off. And I slowly started building this community of runners and firefighters that sort of followed me just because I was doing interesting things. And now it's, it's really grown and. I think the biggest thing that I love is people coming up to me and telling me like, "Hey, I lost 130 pounds because I watched your videos and now I'm running and I started walking and I'm in better shape." Or, "We ran into a guy today on the trails who was like, 'I started running because of you.'"

• 6:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  That is the biggest compliment in the world, that somebody is... Because I know what running meant to me and how it changed my life, so the fact that I could help get somebody on that journey, that, I mean, that's the best compliment I can ever get.

• 6:46Cameron Hanes?

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• 7:29Cameron Hanes?

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• 8:58Cameron Hanes?

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• 9:35Speaker 01

  The fame, I mean, I still don't really consider myself famous, but I mean, I know I have a lot of people that follow me, but like I don't necessarily see it that way. I just, I think it's really great that I'm, I'm helping to make the world a little bit better.

• 9:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  You know, so that when I leave, just, you know, I know that, that I make the world a little bit better.

• 9:55Cameron Hanes?

  You're net positive.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, I got into the fire service because I wanted to help people. And, and I have, I've helped a lot of people in the fire service, you know, save lives, done all that. And now I'm reaching people on a global level and it's, it's really, it's rewarding. You know, because in the fire service, I'm helping one small community and that's fine and that's great. But when you're helping large, you know, large groups of people all over the whole world, it's, it's even better.

• 10:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I that totally makes sense to me. I mean, I know where I was, you know, working. I had a regular job for many years. And it was just like you're impacting your if you're doing it right, you're positively impacting those around you, right? And so I was like, well, man, hopefully I'm, you know, showing people how to get the most out of life, how to push themselves, how to set new goals. And how to, you know, positive attitude and do things the right way. But that is a limited group. Because those are just the people you see every day, whereas the internet has allowed us to maybe have that same type of influence. On hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of people. So there's a decision to make like, yeah. This is good. This is great in this small scale, but.

• 11:09Cameron Hanes?

  How much better could it be? Or how much more of an impact, which if that's what we want to do, I know that's what I want to do. I know that's what you want to do. If like, if we take advantage of this opportunity, man. Then we just make, it's a movement and that's kind of what you've done. You know, because the guy who I think you're talking about this morning that we met on the trail, didn't he have the smile hat on?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did, yeah.

• 11:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, just like, that is, that is amazing.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:35Cameron Hanes?

  I love it.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Well, I I saw like a video of Mr. Rogers and they asked him like, you know, what do you want to be remembered of? And he was, he was just like, I just want to be remembered as a man that was, you know, good, but like I'm just so lucky that I came around. When TV was around and I was able to like have my talents shown.

• 11:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  And I think we're lucky that we're around in a time when the internets, you know, like his TV used to be the big thing. Now, you know, TV is not the big thing. Now the internet's.

• 12:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, if Mr. Rogers is on now on TV, who knows if anybody'd even watch it.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:07Cameron Hanes?

  Because there's so many other options.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and people probably don't even know who Mr. Rogers is.

• 12:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I do.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I watched him as a kid, but if you don't Google him, he's amazing.

• 12:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  But yeah, my point is, is like, we're around in this time when the internet is doing this and there's going to be something else that's going to come along. And it's going to be bigger than the internet. But for right now, we got to take advantage of. You know, what, what people are using.

• 12:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Oh, you, you definitely, you're definitely good at it. I mean, people, especially, I think the ones, the, the viral moments that I've noticed of you, it's like during the races with the hallucinating, I thought I saw something behind this rock. People love like you going up there and just how genuine and just how it looks like you're having so much fun, even though this shit's hard.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, ultra running is very hard. And I think a lot of times we watch these movies and videos and everything's like rainbows and unicorns.

• 13:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  And, and people are like, oh, and they glamorize it. But like ultra running is hard. And I try to like, show a little bit of the grittier side of it as well. The, you know, it's, it's not all rainbows and unicorns.

• 13:16Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  It's hallucinating. It's, you know, kicking cactuses. It's tripping and falling and blood and puke and, you know, shitting yourself and all, all the things, right? I mean, that's ultra running. That's, you know, there, there's a lot of darkness to it that you have to push through. And of course, that's what I like. And that's, you know, the thing that I, I try to like, show people is like, hey, this is a whole experience. It's not just feeling good.

• 13:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  It's feeling bad and then pushing through and finishing, even though you felt bad.

• 13:46Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  You know?

• 13:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. That's the key.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  It is the key.

• 13:49Cameron Hanes?

  That's the key.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Gotta keep moving forward.

• 13:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Relentless forward progress. Tell me, um, tell me about the smile or you're doing it wrong. I don't know where that started.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Sure. Uh, well, it started on a Strava segment.

• 14:04Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  So Strava is an app that you can like, make these segments and people make them all over the world and you can run them. And, um, I was running this random hill and the segment was called, you're either smiling or you're crying. And I think probably if you're going downhill, you're smiling. If you're going uphill, you're crying.

• 14:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  But, uh, I just thought, it was just like a momentary thought, like maybe a decade ago. And I said, man, if, if, if you're not smiling, doing this, you're, you're doing it wrong. And then that just, I started putting that in social media posts and, and that's where it started. And then it's obviously gotten so much bigger that it's, it's more of just like about philosophy and, um, a sort of a mantra about how lucky we are to be able to do what we're doing. And even if it's like terrible and horrible, you know?

• 14:53Speaker 01

  There's still joy in it, right? I mean, like, I, I've, I've been in races where people are really hurting and they really want to quit. And, um, and I'll look at him and I'll be like, well, what do you do for a living? The guy will be like, I make pizzas. And I'm like, okay. Do you want to be making pizzas right now? He's like, no, you know? And I'm like, that's right. Now get up and keep running, you know? And it's like, sometimes we lose perspective of how lucky it is to, that we can go out there and suffer and, and, and do these hard things, but,

• 15:27Speaker 01

  I, you know, the joy and the smiling and just also just the spreading the positivity. If you're in a race, someone's having a hard time and you come across them and you smile at them, instinctively, most of the time, they will smile back at you.

• 15:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  And when, once somebody smiles, there's like a trigger in their brain and it sometimes can get them out of that, like real negative low moment, just because they smiled.

• 15:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Um, and, and so I think, you know, there's some, some, some positivity in that as well. Like, sometimes that's all you need is somebody go, hey, good job. Hey, you look like you're killing it. Even you feel like death. You're slogging up this hill and somebody comes by and tells you, you're doing a great job. Sometimes that's all you need emotionally to get out of it. Cause a lot of times in ultras and in life, it is just emotions that are holding you back.

• 16:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  It's not your physical, it's, it's your brain. So if you can have a small chemical change in your brain to like,

• 16:17Cameron Hanes?

  A trigger effect.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And sometimes it's just a smile.

• 16:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  And, and where, like, where, how'd you learn that? You know, my dad was real big on positivity and he, he pushed it on us at a very young age. Um, I didn't know I was learning it at the time because when you're young, you don't know, but every day at dinner, he would sit us down and we're eating dinner and he'd go, okay, tell me one positive thing that happened to you today. And he made us do this every day and we hated it. Oh my God, did we hate it? It'd be like, I got extra long recess, you know, you just try to think of the dumbest thing like I didn't get called on today. I didn't have homework, you know, but what I, what I didn't realize is that he was trying to program us to think about positive things that went on and There's always good.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, because like our brain tends to go always think about the negative stuff and, and to focus on that negative stuff. But if, if you, if you think about the positive stuff, then it's like, again, it's, it's a mental shift. So he, he was pushing that at a young age. Now I, I do it to my kids, you know, and, and they hate it as well. But it's like, uh, I, I think that's where it started. And I mean, he was like, his email address was like positive 50 at gmail.com or something. He was just so big on positivity. So I, I think that's where it started. And then, you know, I just, I've just continued it. How, why do you think he was, he started that? I mean, Well, when, when he was in his thirties, he got testicular cancer and almost died.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Oh. And, um, like he told me he was in a room with, he got like this real experimental treatment that ended up saving his life. But he said, like, only two people survived, him and another guy. And he was in this room with all these people and they were, you know, going through the odds and all this stuff. The doctors were talking and he said he looked around the room and everybody looked hopeless and they had all given up. And, you know, he's like, I wasn't going to give up, you know, I was gonna, I was gonna fight. And he did fight and he survived. So he was just really grateful, um, to be alive. And then, I mean, he ended up living till he was in his seventies, you know, which, which is great because they gave him like six months to live when he was like 36.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Wow. So, um, I, you know, I don't know, I didn't know my dad really well before, you know, cause I, he, he was 30 when I was born. So I didn't know him really well before that. So I don't know if he was super positive in his, in his youth, but. That's, that's just what I saw and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that he didn't die and that, you know, he was just really grateful to be alive.

• 18:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, well, that's a great lesson for anybody to have. I mean, to, to pass on to the kids, you know, so it's great you're doing it too.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it was a try.

• 19:08Cameron Hanes?

  Well, cause you know, a lot of kids are in families where they hear their, their mom or the dad, you know, they hear negativity a lot because a lot of people will blame like, lack of success on someone else or they didn't get the opportunity because they got screwed over by the boss's kid or you know, like there's always something, right? So if you're, if your kids are hearing that or you're subjecting your kids to that mindset, you're making a victim mentality type human.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Which will continue on and throughout their whole life.

• 19:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right. And it's like, it's just not the way, it's not the path to success or happiness. Whereas your dad's was, yeah, that's, that's, and it's passed on to you and you're doing a great job of it too now. So, and I know that is, that doesn't, that's not like a magic pill by, okay, I'm just gonna be positive from now on. And that you're never gonna have days where you're down, you know, there's, but it definitely does help.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, and I have horrible points in ultras and in life where I'm not smiling, but like, it doesn't mean that like, I'm not still trying to be positive. It doesn't mean I'm not still like, trying, trying to find a, a way forward. I mean, life is, is incredibly hard, you know, and ultras are incredibly hard and you know, you're gonna have low points, but it's how you work through them and how you continue forward that, that really defines you.

• 20:32Cameron Hanes?

  Where, so now you're kind of known as for sure the smile guy, but also the hundred miles a week guy. And it's like six years of a hundred miles a week, which is for people, you know, we talk about what it takes to train and be ready for these ultras and, and generally it does take a hundred mile weeks, which is 14 miles a day, but even doing one of those is hard. The fact that you've done six years worth of those, even, you know, with all the racing, with all the traveling, with the full-time job, with the, you know, the career, the, the, being a dad, being a husband, it's amazing. So tell me, like,

• 21:13Cameron Hanes?

  First, how did the ultra journey start? I want to know how you started. What was the impetus to getting into ultra running?

• 21:21Speaker 01

  So, I mean, one, I love backpacking. I've done a lot of backpacking, done a lot of like summit climbing and mountaineering. I started doing those obstacle course races, like tough mudders.

• 21:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Kind of because in the fire service, we do these things called grinders where we put all our gear on. And then we do these workouts where we like throw a ladder and then we pull hose and then we go upstairs with like hose on our backs and just we do these like, we call them grinders, but like they're like hit workouts, you know, that we'll hit, we'll hit a tire with a sledgehammer, we'll do a farmer's carry and we just, we do it. So I was kind of into doing that style workout and a buddy was like, hey, there's this thing called a tough mutter where you do these obstacles and then you get to run like a half marathon while you're doing it. And I'm like, okay, well, that sounds fun. And I did it and I loved it. It was like so fun. Well, eventually those became, they had 24 hour tough mudders.

• 22:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  And so I signed up for that. And then I was like, well, I've never run like that far before. So I, I got to figure something out. And so I did a 50K to get ready for this 24 hour tough mutter. And it was the worst experience of my life. Like I think it took me, it's such an obscure race. It's not even an ultra signup, but I think it took me like nine hours and 45 minutes to do a 50K.

• 22:45Cameron Hanes?

  And do you know what?

• 22:47Cameron Hanes?

  This dipshit over here says that's not an ultra. He says he doesn't count 50K.

• 22:54Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, oh, sorry. Sorry. Nevermind. But yeah, so that sounds like a tough 50K.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it was in the mountains. It was at 7,000 feet, blah, blah, blah. Excuses, excuses. But you know, it was, it was a rough day for me. We'll just put it like, I was like almost dead last, but I passed these two little old ladies that were walking at the very end, you know, so like they were gonna like finish and I was gonna be dead last and I passed them like in the last quarter mile.

• 23:19Cameron Hanes?

  Did you knock them down?

• 23:21Speaker 01

  They're like, they're like skipping down the trail, like laughing and talking to each other. I would just come by just death, you know?

• 23:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  So, you know, that was my first one. And so then I was hooked, of course, because it was this like, just terribly hard experience.

• 23:35Cameron Hanes?

  Did you say like, I'm never doing that again?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  I'm sure I did.

• 23:38Cameron Hanes?

  Right after?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:39Cameron Hanes?

  Then when is the next one?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, yeah. And the next one was just a few months later. And then I did it like, I think it's six hours. So I, you know, shaved a lot of time off. And, you know, just progressively got faster. But eventually, and I did a couple of those 24 hour Tough Mudders, but eventually the Tough Mudders became less and less, and the Ultras became more and more. And then, then it was just all Ultras. So.

• 24:01Cameron Hanes?

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• 24:46Cameron Hanes?

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• 25:31Cameron Hanes?

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• 26:03Speaker 01

  I mean, kind of like how I like backpacking, I really just love being outside in nature. And I, I like the alone time, you know? I'm kind of a mid packer, sometimes front mid pack, but a lot of times I'm not really around very many people. And so I will just be like completely by myself in the middle of the woods, um, looking at plants, listening to, you know, birds and all that sort of stuff and looking at these beautiful summits and sunrises. And I just really, really liked, I like that. And then I also, I get a real sense of where like my brain stops thinking like it normally does when I'm out there.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  It quiets my brain because I have a very active brain that's always thinking, always wanting to do stuff. And when I get out there and I get really deep into the, the ultra, the brain kind of quiets out and I just kind of have this like silence and I'm surrounded by nature and I enjoy that.

• 27:07Cameron Hanes?

  It's, that's kind of, I don't know if that's rare or different, but a lot of people, when they get by themselves, then they start overthinking.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 27:15Cameron Hanes?

  You know what I mean?

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:16Cameron Hanes?

  So I, I know I've had a lot of people in the wilderness hunting where it's just, you know, you go that way, I go this way. So we're by ourselves and a lot of people don't like that because they say that you can really find out what you're About or who you are when you're by yourself with no distractions and some people don't like learning who they are.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:35Cameron Hanes?

  You know, they're so used to distractions, not really have to deal with anything internally because you can kind of just turn on the TV. If you are having a thought that is uncomfortable, then you just distract yourself scrolling. But it sounds like you, it's therapeutic for you in another way where everything quiets down when you're by yourself.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Well, in the beginning, you know, the first will say 70 miles. There's a lot of thinking about yourself and introspection and, you know, dealing, I sort of start thinking about my problems and playing chess with them like, well, what if I do this? And what if I do that? And, you know, I go through all that, but eventually you get to that point where like all you think about is feeding yourself.

• 28:14Cameron Hanes?

  Moving forward.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Drinking and moving forward, you know, and occasionally going to the bathroom. Right? And, and, and that's what I, I really crave because that's when it gets real, real quiet. But, um, I, I mean, I, I've done a lot of solo backpacking and I've done a lot of just being by myself in the wilderness. I, I like it. People are like, isn't it scary? Like what if there's a bear? I'm like, well, you know, all those types of scenarios, what ifs, you'll just deal with them when they happen, but I'm not going to sit around and like worry about it, worry about some scenario that hasn't happened, you know? I mean, I've, I've come across bears during ultras. I've come across bears during backpacking. I've, I've run into mountain lions while trail running.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, you know, I could tell you scary stories, but again, nothing happened. You know, it was, it was scary at the time, but then again, it all worked out.

• 29:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  It could, it might not have, but it did. So, you know?

• 29:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's, I mean, where did the love of backpacking start? Because that's, that's something that people don't do by themselves very often.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  I had a grandfather that was obsessed with birding, like he would take pictures of birds.

• 29:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  And so he would take me out, um, from a young age and we did a lot of backpacking.

• 29:26Cameron Hanes?

  We'd keep track of the birds in a book.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. He took pictures and like, yeah, he was really into it and he taught me a lot about photography. Um, and we've, because I live in California, so we would go to all the like national parks, Sequoia, Yosemite and just backpack around and, um, Yeah, I think that's probably where it started. And then when I was 16, I got sent to a wilderness academy for bad kids and we had to backpack around for 90 something days. And it was terrible. And, you know, I, I, I was on drugs and I, so I was sobering up while I was out there. But, you know, 90 days in the Utah wilderness is, is a pretty magical experience.

• 30:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that'll change you.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it, it was really, really great. So, um, after that, like, I was in college and I was 18. I organized, uh, we did the John Muir Trail, me and a bunch of buddies. Uh, or we attempted it. We got, all our food got eaten by bears, but, um, you know, it's like, that was back when you could do the John Muir Trail. And there was no, like, now it's like very hard and there's lottery.

• 30:32Cameron Hanes?

  Permit and all this shit.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  I literally, we showed up and, uh, we're like, yeah, we want to hike the John Muir Trail. They're like, okay, here, here's your permit. And we just like hiked it, you know, we, there's no, um, anything like that. So. And then now my uncle, who's, he's in his seventies, but like, we tend to do like a big backpacking trip with him and his friends. Like every year in the Sierras, which is a mountain range in California. So it just continues.

• 30:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:59Cameron Hanes?

  And just being in nature is just what you love.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I've taken my son up. We, we've done like, we slept on the top of an 11,000 foot peak the other day. And, um, you know, fun stuff like that as well.

• 31:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you can't beat that.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:13Cameron Hanes?

  And that quality time with your kid, you know, I mean, it's, yeah, it's never like that quality. Like at home or in, in doing the regular life stuff, you know, you just don't have that uninterrupted time to either say nothing, talk, just walk, but it's just like, it's just so different. It's powerful, you know?

• 31:34Speaker 01

  And nowadays, it's really nice to just be away from the internet.

• 31:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, there's some real, uh, healing time to like, when you're out and your phone doesn't work and you're just like away from everything. It's really, really nice. It's resetting, especially, I mean, the first day you're kind of like, eh, I need, I wonder what's going on. And then like, after like, two or three days, you walk out of there and you're like, man, that was so good to be away from all, everything, all the noise.

• 32:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. After a couple of days, you're not thinking about anything out on the outside world. No, I don't give a, I'm like,

• 32:09Speaker 01

  And you're kind of like, man, I wonder if I could just live like this.

• 32:13Cameron Hanes?

  I just don't go back.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:15Cameron Hanes?

  I know. I hear, I hear that for sure. Um, well, now it's like, it's just crazy because we have, you know, ultra is really getting popular. Races are selling now. We got superstars in the sport. We got Olympians coming and running in, in ultras and, and the world we love. But still, you're like, one of the biggest names in the sport. And like, I was listening to a podcast yesterday, or I mean, I think yesterday, and it was talking about Cogodona and having you there and like the eyeballs you brought to a race. And it's like, how, how amazing is that, that you said you're like a mid packer or, or front of the mid pack?

• 32:57Cameron Hanes?

  And I will say you've won 100 mile races. So it's like you, you've, you have your days also. But, uh, I guess we'd say, we're not the elite runners, right? There's elites out there and that's not us. But you still have like, people love you so much that you, and the following brings eyeballs to the race. How, how amazing is that?

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think it's great because, you know, one of my goals is to make our sport continue. You know, and it's like, I have this huge following on TikTok and everyone writes TikTok off, but it's, I have all these 14, 15 year old boys that are on cross country teams and they're following me. I didn't know about ultra running until I was in my 30s.

• 33:35Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  So what does that mean? It means that we have a whole new generation of like, young boys and young girls who are finding out about ultras early. And then, you know, they already love to run. They already love hard things. And like, it's going to be like a progression into our sport. And I, and I think it's great. I'm, I'm completely here for it. It is a little frustrating because, you know, ultras tend to be much smaller. You know, I mean, you sign up for a marathon, 40,000 people. That's, that's great. Ultra, you might have 250. I don't know what Cogodona is, maybe 3, 300. And there's a thousand person waitlist. You know, I mean, The first, first year of Coca Dona, there was like 150 people.

• 34:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? So it, it, it is, it's challenging because as more and more people enter our sport, it's harder for people to get access to these races that everybody wants to do. And then, you know, there's frustration and lotteries and all this stuff, but there's so many races now compared to what it used to be.

• 34:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Um, so I think that's good too, because, you know, more and more people are creating these challenging races and like, I did this race, I, you did too, Crazy Mountain in Montana. That was the only 100 miler in Montana. Now there's multiple. You know, and it's like, so we're getting to go run in all these interesting new locations that we didn't really have access to before, whi- which is great, you know?

• 34:57Cameron Hanes?

  And I think like a, a byproduct of that is when you go to these races and run in this new country, you learn about that country and about like with that one, there's a Native American tie in with Crazy Mountains.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:09Cameron Hanes?

  Specifically, and kind of celebrating the Native American heritage there and the history of that country. So, and then we're in it, we're immersed in it, we're covering miles in it, hundreds of, hundreds of miles in this incredible, beautiful country, but also like you're learning a little bit more about it. And you can just appreciate it more. So every person who does that race takes something from those mountains back home.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:34Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and it's just that, it's just so powerful. And so you think about all the races you've done or I've done, all these ultra runners have done where they've had that connection to these wild places. And to me, that's the greatest reward. It's the people you share it with, the experience, you know, I, you know, I've done a lot of races with my brother, but I see people like you out there and you have this connection and you spend, spend time with people in the mountains and it's just like, it makes us this bond that. You know, very few things make that strong that quickly.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:09Cameron Hanes?

  You know, like what you do and.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  When you're suffering with somebody, yeah, and like you're really both struggling and you have to push each other through like you you become best friends real quick.

• 36:18Cameron Hanes?

  And what I would say is like, I know, you know, I say bow hunting has changed my life, but ultra running also has that same power to change lives. Because of those, you know, those, just those experiences that are so raw and real. And it's like, so we talk about the sport growing, more people, you know, coming into it, these more races maybe have to be made so everybody can enjoy it. But that's all net positive.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:42Cameron Hanes?

  That's all great.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 36:43Cameron Hanes?

  That's, you know, and we talk about when we, you know, uh, protecting public lands and creating these races, that's why it is so important because we need, we need to have public lands available to, to be able to share this with people. And so, um.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  It gets stressful when you start thinking about when they try to start taking public lands away and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, you know, the, the, people enjoy these on, on a lot of levels and it's really important for people's mental health and like just livelihoods and everything. I mean, races and things bring money to small communities that don't normally, you know, get anything.

• 37:18Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  And if you all of a sudden like commercialize and, and, you know, turn something into a mine or do something like that, then no monies are gonna go.

• 37:26Cameron Hanes?

  Everyone's locked out.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:27Cameron Hanes?

  They're just, you know, extracting the resource from the land and nobody can appreciate it really.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 37:32Cameron Hanes?

  It's just the big, the big whoever that runs a company making money.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:37Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I guess a few people have jobs, but it's not, you know, that money comes and goes.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  There, there are things that are much more important in life to humans than money. And I know money makes the world go around, but like, if you go spend some time in the mountains, you realize that there are things way more important than money, you know, while you're out there. And, and I think ultras and really give people that, I mean, I'm sure a lot, lot of other things besides ultras, but like, you know, if people get out there and see that stuff, it'll change them.

• 38:05Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, definitely. Um, and thinking about that on that topic, I guess, you've done so many incredible races in different countries all around the world. What's one that's really stood out for you as far as like really had an impact that changed you?

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Um, I did a race in China that was pretty, uh, pretty incredible where we were in like deep rural China, uh, like almost in the Himalayas. And, uh, we ran through all these like villages that didn't have electricity. They were still using, um, like aux to, to do the farming and all that stuff. And every aid station was controlled by a village. And so you would come into the aid station and there'd be all these people that had never seen a white person before. Um, and they, they'd want you to hold their babies and like they had all their food and they were so proud and like, it, it was really an incredible experience because I was seeing

• 39:07Speaker 01

  a culture that I'd never seen before and they were seeing a culture that they had never seen before and we were interacting together. Um, but yeah, I mean, that, that race was one of the more incredible experiences in my life, just because it was so different from anything I'd ever seen or, or experienced before. Um, the, I mean, the food was weird, like everything, everything was like very out of my comfort zone. So I, I like to get out of my comfort zone. I like to, I, I live in the desert. It's hot. I'm used to desert trails. So what do I do? I like go sign up for muddy races and I go sign up for, you know, cold races and, and things that get me out of my comfort zone because it's easy for me just to go run in, you know, the desert all the time because that's what I'm used to.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Like even your trails, um, you know, Cam's flying down these trails and I'm like, all right, he knows where all the rocks are, but like, you know, there's leaves and roots and things. It's very different than running a desert trail. And so I had to take a hot little second, you know, to try to, and if you guys saw the pictures, uh, you know, I did have a good fall and slid down my back, uh, with some mud, but, um, you know, I still, I gave, I gave it my all. But yeah, I think getting out of your comfort zone and, and when I went to China, I really got out of my comfort zone. So that was, that was really a cool experience that changed me. And I learned about Chinese Red Bull, which if you ever try is quite strong.

• 40:33Cameron Hanes?

  It hits hard.

• 40:36Cameron Hanes?

  Well, so that's a perfect example of if not for that ultra marathon, when would you have been around people like that and learned from them?

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Never.

• 40:45Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I mean, it's just not going to happen. So because of running, you were able to experience something that otherwise you never would have.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. Why would I go to rural China?

• 40:54Cameron Hanes?

  And you grew from it and you're like, you're carrying that memory with you. That's your most memorable memory you have from this. So it's like so powerful, but without ultra running, yeah, never.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 41:06Cameron Hanes?

  So that's, that's a perfect example of why it's so, so beautiful and so empowering and so valuable and, and it's so important to protect, you know?

• 41:16Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 41:17Cameron Hanes?

  I love it. Um, yeah. And so along, along the course of your career then, what people have, we talk about the races and the communities, but what about the, the connection with the fellow racers? Tell me, give an example of that.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  I mean, so I've met so many really great people running.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  And a lot of times it's in like huge suffer fest.

• 41:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, I think it's very challenging to meet people once you become an adult, you know, I mean, there's, you meet people at work. You might meet people if you drink at a bar. I don't drink. So, I mean, I don't go to bars. So, you know, how do you meet people? You got to meet people with common interests or something like that. So a lot of my adult friends that I have are I've met at races. You know, Eli's a good example. He's been on here, my, my trail husband. I met him at a race. I met him at Havelina.

• 42:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  And, uh, you know, we had DM'd before back and forth, but nothing like serious.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, we, we shared like 20 miles together at Havelina and then we started training together and then, you know, now I go out there like once a week and we run together and it's, it's been really great. Other exam, I mean, I can remember being on the top of Eldon in Cogadona, remember that, that mountain?

• 42:39Cameron Hanes?

  I do.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Uh, and I was like 2am and I was about to start descending and this guy came to me and he was like, hey, I know you've done this race before, uh, can I, can I go with you because I'm a little nervous about going down Eldon. I was like, yeah, come on. And his name was Chad and, uh, you know, we descended that together in the dark and we both struggled very, very hard and we were both hallucinating and stumbled. I have some great videos of him, you know, curving on the trail and like, you know, me trying, don't fall off that edge, you know, and, and we got through it together and have become really good friends ever since. Like we've done a bunch of other races together. He lives in New York City. When I'm in New York City, we go run Central Park together and it's, you know, it's just

• 43:26Speaker 01

  because we, this one experience that I had no idea was going to happen, but it happened throughout the race and now here we are.

• 43:34Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  And then also like, if you've ever had anybody crew you or pace you, you will become quite, quite close with those people.

• 43:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Because they're going to get you through some, some really tough moments.

• 43:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  And it's, it's hard not to get in a serious bond with somebody that gets you through a tough moment like that.

• 43:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, if, you know, when your feet are torn up, your feet are a mess, they're rubbing them or they're popping blisters or they're bandaged. I mean, it's hard not to create a connection.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:00Cameron Hanes?

  You know, it's like, and they're helping so much. Um.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  There's even some aid station people who like, cause I do some, like I've done Cogadona for five years. A lot of times the same aid station people are there and so every year I see them and like we've, over five years, we've become good, like I'm ready to see them when I come into the aid station.

• 44:19Cameron Hanes?

  Definitely.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  And so, you know, the same thing, even some of the medics, like you said, that have fixed my feet or done things like that. I've created relationships with them and you know, it's, uh, It's, it's just, it's, it's hard to do that as an adult, but like it's a great way to do it.

• 44:34Cameron Hanes?

  So selfless, those people who are this, they're helping the runners.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  I know.

• 44:38Cameron Hanes?

  You know, it's amazing. They deserve so much credit because they don't get, they don't get the buckle at the end. They don't get the cool photos and video. They're just helping.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  And they're there all night.

• 44:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  You know, sometimes when you come into an aid station, it's pouring rain and it's cold and you get into that aid station and like, I am, I'm always thinking like, you guys have been here this whole time, you know, just like taking this rain and like, you know, it's, it, it's not any easier for them. I mean, yeah, we're running, but like they're taking care of people and having to survive the, the same weather conditions, you know?

• 45:14Cameron Hanes?

  It's amazing. Out in the mountains, there's no room for weak gear. When I'm packing out meat in the heat or loading up for a long range training trip, I need a cooler that holds the line every time. That's why I use Grizzly coolers. These things are bear proof, rugged as hell and keep ice locked in for days, literally. I've had coolers on the trail, baking in the sun, still holding ice after hauling out elk quarters. That's performance you can count on. Whether you're running deep in the backcountry or just stacking meat for the weekend, Grizzly is built for that grind. Right now, you can get 20% off at grizzlycoolers.com with the code KEEPHAMMERING and that's all one word.

• 46:00Cameron Hanes?

  And I'm not going to spell it. Keep hammering. Again, keep hammering, one word for 20% off. Don't roll with weak gear. Go Grizzly.

• 46:11Cameron Hanes?

  When you're deep in the backcountry and everything depends on your gear, your knife can't be the weak link. That's why I teamed up with Montana Knife Company to build the Keep Hammering Pack Out. What matters to me in all things is performance. The Pack Out is built to do one thing really well. Break down animals efficiently. The blade shape gives you control when skinning, the steel holds an edge, and it's light enough that you don't think twice about carrying it all day. When you're tired, cold. And working on an animal miles from the truck, simple and reliable are everything. Montana Knife Company is American made and that matters to me. I know Josh Smith personally and he doesn't cut corners. He cares about quality, doing things the right way and about building products here in the USA

• 46:56Cameron Hanes?

  that actually perform in the field. That's why I trust this knife. If you want to check it out, head to montanaknifecompany.com and right now, podcast listeners get 10% off any knife with code CAM10. C I M 10. To keep hammering pack out, built for the back country, built to work. So how many of your closest friends are ultra runners?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Uh, I probably, I mean, closest friend, I probably have like, probably 10, 10 good friends that do it.

• 47:32Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, is that all your friends or do you have friends who are, don't do that?

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Or is like, No, I have friends that don't do it.

• 47:38Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, my best friend who I've known since kindergarten, he, he does, I mean, he, he, he'll do like smaller activities with me. Like if we will summit a mountain or like he did a tough mutter with me, stuff like that, but,

• 47:53Speaker 01

  and then I have friends at work that I've gotten to like, I've, they've done some half marathons and some marathons. I got one guy from work to do an ultra, he did a 50K. Uh, I did the 100 miler, he did the 50K, but yeah, most, most people, you know, that I, that I know are, are not ultra runners.

• 48:10Cameron Hanes?

  They'll support you.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, they'll support me.

• 48:12Cameron Hanes?

  You on.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I even got my wife, she did a 50K.

• 48:16Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, nice.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Well, she did, she did a six hour race and she got a 50K in it, but so she can,

• 48:20Cameron Hanes?

  James says that doesn't count.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Well, James, come on, this isn't shit talkers, this is,

• 48:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, this is real life, James.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  But yeah, so she can say she's an ultra runner too.

• 48:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I love that. I mean, yeah, I don't know, what a, what an experience. Yeah, what's been, uh, so we said the most memorable, tell me of all the races, like you've done pretty much every race I could think of right now, but uh, like what's one that was just like the most miserable experience you've ever had?

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, Moab 240 this last year was, was, was pretty, pretty miserable.

• 49:00Cameron Hanes?

  Cause of the weather?

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, uh, it just, it never really stopped raining on us.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  You know, and just due to the distance, it was pretty bad. Um, you know, that whole dry riverbed, you know, that was like, you know, shit, shit deep water. And we had to literally just walk up the stream, you know, things like that. So your feet, your skin gets all soft, your feet get torn up. Yeah. I mean, I had to like, put a ton of that, my lube on there to just keep it so the water wouldn't penetrate. And then going up those mountains, it was just all mud. So, you know, at one point I just had to, I had to get on all fours and I was like climbing because if you took a step, you'd just start sliding back. So you had to do this like, you know. Digging in with your fingers.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  I mean, it was great grabbing onto branches and like going through tree. It was, yeah, that was pretty, pretty hard. Um, I did do Rocky raccoon once where it was, it poured rain on us the entire time and there was no dryness and you were literally in ankle deep water, at least the entire hundred miles. Wow. That was, um, I, I, I know you, you know, you say I'm famous, but what's really famous about me is my feet. Yeah. I have really, really gross feet and I have these really, really famous, like I always take my, my shoes off and my socks off. And the internet just loves it. Like I'll get like 50 million views on my foot videos and the foot video after Rocky raccoon was, was pretty gnarly because my feet had been wet for like 23 hours.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Were they torn up? They were, they were in bad shape. They were, they looked like dead, dead people's feet. Yeah. So that, that one was pretty bad too. Um, but yeah, I think most of the time it's just weather related. You know, it's like either like way too hot or just way too wet or way too cold. And when you're in those moments, they're just like, you're just so miserable, but you also know. A, everybody else is going through this too, right? That's why I always remind myself, I'm like, "Look, we're all going through this. So no matter how miserable I am, so is everybody else." And it's gonna make a great story.

• 51:09Cameron Hanes?

  But don't you think sometimes like, "Oh, they probably got through before the weather came."

• 51:14Speaker 01

  I mean, I know some of them did, like at Moab, like, like, so on Moab this year, Eli got up and over the first mountain, which I'm drawing a blank on what it's called, before I did. And he said it wasn't that bad. But then he had this section where it was all mud for like 17 miles. And by the time I got there, the sun was out for like an hour and it had dried it all.

• 51:35Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  And so I had that section and it wasn't bad, but, but the other section I had was terrible. So it's like, you know.

• 51:42Cameron Hanes?

  All comes out in the water.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're all, we're all just gonna suffer on, on different levels, but uh, that's, that's how I remind my, I'm just like, "Hey, we're all gonna, we're all going through this." So it's, it's, it's not that bad. But you know, I always, I hope it's gonna end soon, you know, but you know, if it doesn't, it doesn't, you know? The race will end eventually. You just keep moving forward.

• 52:00Cameron Hanes?

  Keep going.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:02Cameron Hanes?

  It's a, you know, you talked about Eli, but is there anybody like that you really enjoy racing with? Like, have you ever like teamed up with somebody in a race and it just worked? Or is it just changes? Cause people go different paces all the time in long races.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Uh, there's this guy named Ray Sanchez. Are you, are you familiar with him?

• 52:20Cameron Hanes?

  I don't think so.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  So he is, he's like old school ultra runner and he has, he's one of those guys that has over a hundred, 100 mile finishes.

• 52:30Cameron Hanes?

  Wow.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  There's only like 20 something in the world, you know? So he's done a lot of, he, everyone's like, "Oh, you've done a lot of hundreds." I'm like, Ray has done a lot of hundreds. And um, he and I have done a couple races where we've run the full 100 miles together. And I, I just really enjoy, cause he's just so old school and like, his philosophies and everything, but he's also just like relentlessly.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Strong. Like we did like cold water together this year. Mm hmm. And and he's like, I think, I mean, he's probably like your age. He's like, you know, He's an old son of a bitch. Well, I mean, we're all old, but some of us are older. And I mean, he beat me at cold water. Yeah. You know, and at mile seven, he fell and like knocked himself out and he had this huge black eye. Oh, my. And he cut his head open and somebody took his T shirt and wrapped it around his head. That's badass. And and he was like, I saw him like, you know, at mile twenty, we were running together and he goes, I was so scared that the medics were gonna pull me. They asked me a couple of questions and I just lied. And it's like, just kept running. And then the next week he went and did,

• 53:39Speaker 01

  what's what's the hundred and thirty five miler in the snow where you pull a sled? Oh, Arrowhead. Arrowhead. He went and did that the next week. So I mean, he's just like one of those dudes. He's done bad water like twenty times. Oh, my God. Freaking beast. Yeah, but like he and I, for whatever reason, probably because he's, you know, a little older, like, we've done a lot of rate. We did, um, have you ever heard of Badwater Salt and Sea? No. So Badwater Salt and Sea is a, it's a three, three man or, you know, three person race. And you have to stay together. Okay. That's those are the rules. So it's eighty one miles. And you have to stay within five feet of your team member the whole time. So if one guy has a bad, bad day, you all have a bad day. If you all have a good day, and Ray and I've done that a bunch together.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  And at one point, our team member was puking and like having a hard time. And in the rules, you're allowed to assist them. Hmm. So we tied belts to him. To pull him. And we were in the front and we pulled this dude. The last twelve miles is all uphill. And we pulled this dude as he was walking like a zombie, you know, up this hill together. And yeah, so yeah, Ray and I, we've, we've spent a lot of miles together, like a lot of miles together. Ray's an OG. He's real OG. Yeah, yeah. Is, uh, how many, how many hundreds have you done? I, you know, I don't know. I gotta sit down and I think probably over 50, but I don't exactly know.

• 54:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  I do a lot of unsanctions, like no race hundreds where I just go out and use gas stations and you know, like liquor stores as aid stations and just run a hundred miles with no, you know, we, we call them fat ass ultras, you know, no fees, no wards, no T-shirts.

• 55:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  You know, that's sort of, uh, no aid stations. That's the fat ass, you know?

• 55:23Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I got you.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, I do a lot of those and, and when they count them, they don't, they say those don't count. And I'm like, well, it's still a hundred miles and like, you know, I, I did it all by myself, you know? But like, the people that count those things don't count, don't count those things. So.

• 55:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. A lot of rules.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of rules. That's, you know, and that's like with my streak. Everyone's like, a run streaker is somebody that runs every day. And I'm like, well, I've missed days, but I still get my hundred mile week.

• 55:49Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  You know, so.

• 55:51Cameron Hanes?

  And it's actually harder when you miss days to get a hundred mile.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:55Cameron Hanes?

  That should be celebrated.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:57Cameron Hanes?

  Like if you, if you did your hundred mile week in one day.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:01Cameron Hanes?

  That'd be impressive.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Right. Well, that's what I always say. Like if I ever get into a pinch, I know I can run a hundred miles in a day.

• 56:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  So it's like, even if I missed all the other days, as long as I had one day at the end.

• 56:12Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  I could get it done.

• 56:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's a, how, how cool is it to see how popular, I mean, we talked about hard to get in the races, but how sick is it to see how popular this has become? And like, we have all these podcasts now that talk about ultra running. We have these stars, you know, there's like, you know, we always had Killian.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:30Cameron Hanes?

  Or Jim Walmsley, Walmsley.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Walmsley.

• 56:33Cameron Hanes?

  Walmsley, yeah. Um, we've always had those guys, but now it's like you got these up and comers. You're talking about like the Killian Court, you know, of course we know Courtney, but now you got Rachel coming up.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:43Cameron Hanes?

  How fun is that?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  It's amazing. And then also like just running is cool.

• 56:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  You know, there's all these run clubs and like, I go, I go to our local run club every once in a while and it's like, it's so cool just to see all these people showing up and being excited about running.

• 56:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  I'm like, oh dang, I'm, I finally waited long enough and now my sport's cool again.

• 57:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  I was like, take advantage of it. So.

• 57:05Cameron Hanes?

  No, it is amazing. Um, who has like been like your inspiration as far as, who do you follow and, and why, why are they like special to you? I mean?

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Like follow on social media and stuff?

• 57:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, like, uh, like what ultra runners do you, are you like? So I always say I'm balls deep on whoever.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:27Cameron Hanes?

  That means I like them.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  I'm like this, like, I don't, I don't really follow anybody.

• 57:32Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  I'm like this, I have this like sort of weird thing where like, I only follow people if I've met them.

• 57:37Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  And like, sort of like, shared time with them.

• 57:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  And so like.

• 57:41Cameron Hanes?

  Like a real connection.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Like a real connection. Because like, I don't want to have like, a million people that I follow.

• 57:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  And so, it's, it sounds bad, but I don't really, I don't follow any of the pros. I don't, I, I can't really relate with them.

• 57:55Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  You know, I, I don't, because I don't, like, I'm not on their level.

• 57:59Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Like, watching them, it's like, cool to see.

• 58:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  And I'll see it on the internet or whatever. I'm like, oh, that's awesome. They did that. Or like, I do a race and like, I like to see who won. But like, beyond that, I, I, I, you know, I don't get inspired by that. I get inspired by like, the, you know, the guy that's got a job that's out there like, you know, grinding and, and doing the hard things while, while still maintaining life.

• 58:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  You know, like Mike McKnight, who's got a life and everything, and then still, you know, does it, um, but, yeah, that's not really my, my thing. I'm, I get inspired, like, I think, like, my dad inspires me a lot and, um, but, yeah, my inspiration doesn't really come from watching other, other professionals.

• 58:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  That's just, that's just who I am.

• 58:47Cameron Hanes?

  No, I get, that, that makes sense. I mean, I get it. Um, it's just, uh, yeah, like you're in, and there's just no right or wrong answer to that.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  No, yeah, of course not.

• 58:57Cameron Hanes?

  No, it's just like, okay, cool. That makes sense.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:59Cameron Hanes?

  You know, as long as it's, you know, it's, what, what you think about, what moves you, what makes you feel, then that's just the way it goes. And like, you feel by other, like, regular people doing cool shit.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:12Cameron Hanes?

  Right?

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's awesome. My friends, when I like see them, like, like the guy I told you about at Coca Dona, like, the other day, he ran around the whole island of New York. It was like 40 miles or something.

• 59:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  You know, I'm like, and he's like. In the stock market, or he's like one of those finance bros or something like that. But he has a real job. He's got, you know, a life, but he's still out there getting 40 miles just around New York City. I'm like, that, that to me is like, cool. I'm like, hey, that was, that was a cool run that you did, you know?

• 59:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  That's, that's what I like.

• 59:41Cameron Hanes?

  No, me too. I like seeing, uh, cause you've been linking up with other people running. Like I think I saw you, who, who are you running with recently? Max and?

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, so it's like, I, I did one with Ashley Paulson, who just set the world record for, for a hundred miler. Her and Killian Corth, um, Joe Corsione, and then Eli. We did a big like run together. And then before that, like I did a 300 mile week where I invited everybody to join me. And at the end, like, or one of the days, Max and Sally showed up and we, we ran together. But yeah, just occasionally I do like to like run with, you know, whoever wants to come run, you know, I'll invite people and, and all that. Yeah. It, it's an experience. We did this for my 300, 300 week in a row of running over a hundred miles.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  I was like, I'm going to run 300 miles. And so I designed five courses and I put them up on the internet. I said, this is where I'm going to be running. This is what time I'm going to start. I wore a Garmin in reach so people could track me.

• 1:00:45Cameron Hanes?

  I see.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  And then I just, I just started running. Well, I showed up and you know, there's like, you know, 30 people waiting to run with me. And so many people would come out and they were like, I'm going to run 10 miles. I'm going to run five miles. I think I had 14 people that ran their first ultras.

• 1:01:00Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  And like 20 people that ran their first marathon because they had come out for 10 miles and they're like, I'm having so much fun. I'm just going to keep going. And it's like, hell yeah. And then everybody's like cheering each other on and it's this big group and.

• 1:01:13Cameron Hanes?

  Dude, that's gotta be more special than almost any race.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Oh, it was so, it was so fun.

• 1:01:18Cameron Hanes?

  To me, stuff like making an impact like that and seeing people achieve more than they ever have.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:23Cameron Hanes?

  That's life. That's, that's the greatest part of life to me.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  It was so fun. And then, you know, we, cause I did it like old school ultra where it was like, all right, guys, we got an aid station coming up and we'd all go into a liquor store and get Gatorades and like bags of chips and you know, but yeah, people are really into it. We had a, we had a good time that whole week. I mean, it was, it was very hard to run 300 miles in a week. But yeah, but it was, it was so fun. Yeah. I had a guy that. The last day I did seventy five miles and he came out and ran like the last ten miles with me. The fastest he's ever run ten miles and he, he told me later that two years previous, he had a kidney transplant and they told him he was gonna die and all this stuff and yeah, he came out and you know, ran ten miles faster than he'd ever run ten miles before in his whole life. Yeah, it's just, it's just a really cool experience.

• 1:02:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's, yeah, we gotta feel lucky for, for times like that for sure.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Well, and obviously all these people came out because at some point they were inspired.

• 1:02:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  And, you know, and wanted to share some of that with me, which, you know, I feel super blessed and lucky that, to have that, so.

• 1:02:24Cameron Hanes?

  Well, you've, you've created it. I mean, you are the, the man behind it. That inspiration is like you, you inspire so many. And, uh, so tell me like the, the book, um, when did the, the vision for a book happen?

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  So, I mean, I've obviously in my head thought about writing a book for a long time. And I have, my best friend is always telling me, write a book, write a book. Um, but I was on Sally's podcast. And, and she was basically like, after our podcast, she was like, you really need to write a book. And I'm like, yeah, just how do you find time for that? You know, I'm.

• 1:03:02Cameron Hanes?

  Was she just because your, your life story was so interesting?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, because of my life story and, and I was like, you know what? I sat down and I thought, how, how could I even find the time for this? And I go, you're just gonna do an hour a day. You're just gonna, whatever it is, you're gonna work on this book for one hour. You can find an hour in a day. And I just started working on it and after her podcast and you know, one hour became two hours a day, became like six hours a day.

• 1:03:32Cameron Hanes?

  It started to flow?

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, total flow and then just obsession.

• 1:03:35Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  I would go out on my runs and I would be formulating like how I wanted the chapter to look and everything. And then I would come back and like type it all out.

• 1:03:43Cameron Hanes?

  Did you take note, did you type notes?

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  I would do the, I would do the audio, yeah, notes and stuff. I'd be like, and don't forget this and you know, do this and, um, and yeah, I just, I was able to get it done in like, I think four or five months, just like working hard on it. And then I was like, well, I don't know what to do at that point. And then, you know, I had to learn the whole process of, which is a very long, complicated process of editors and proofreaders and

• 1:04:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  you know, um. Cover design and what font to pick and you know this

• 1:04:17Cameron Hanes?

  It takes a lot to get over the finish line. You know what I mean?

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  You know, I told everyone I'm writing a book and they're like, is it out yet? It's like, I haven't even edited it yet. It took me like, I think, four months to get it through because you have to do edit one and then you have to do edit two and then edit three. And you know, it's, it's, it's a process.

• 1:04:35Cameron Hanes?

  I love it though. I mean, I love it because it's like, even when I'm looking at this, this right now, how it's presented. It's like smile on the top of this left side page. Movement is medicine on the right side. And it's like, oh, and then even if I just look right here, running gave me purpose. It gave me peace. It alleviated my anxiety. Movement became my medicine. All powerful. Like this is all can help people because we know how powerful running and movement can be. Not everybody knows that.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:04Cameron Hanes?

  So when they see you and they're like, I want to, I want to feel like that guy. I want to smile when, in the face of adversity, I want to smile when I meet people. I want to be that inspiration for others. And it's like, it's so powerful that you're sharing this because you haven't always been this person.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:05:22Cameron Hanes?

  And you're not always the guy with the big smile. You're a human just like anybody.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:05:26Cameron Hanes?

  But you know, you talk about in the book, you how you've overcame addiction and you know, tough childhood issues. And you still made it, you know, and that should give people hope because we're all at a different stages of our life. Some people, they might not run their first ultra till they're 40 or 50.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:05:45Cameron Hanes?

  Who knows what, but you got in earlier and that's fine. That's your journey. But just sharing it, I think is going to be, you know, just so impactful for so many. And I just, I just love that you've created this book, but uh, tell me about like, you know, the child, your childhood and that challenge that you had to overcome as, as a young adult.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, so. You know, like you were saying, I think what's important is that the book,

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  it demonstrates that you can go from being broken to like a whole person, but it takes a lot of hard work. And definitely, my book's written kind of as an arc. So it's like I start sort of with my childhood when I'm struggling and then through my twenties and then where I'm at now. When I was, when I was younger, like in my teenage years, I got pretty addicted to drugs. And I mean, started with weed and then, you know, I lived in an area where

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  there was a lot of, lot of crystal meth, a lot of speed, just because it's kind of like where Mexico would bring up the meth with the biker gangs and everything. And, and my best friend at the time, who was not a good friend, his dad was a drug dealer for the biker gangs. And so at his house, there was always like a ton of meth and a ton of weed. And so I had like easy access to it. And yeah, I mean, I went from a very happy go lucky, very intelligent kid who did really well in school and was on the football team and, and all the things to, you know, basically running away from home and being like a high school dropout in a very short amount of time. And so

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  my parents didn't know what to do. You know, back in the early nineties, the options were like, you know, there was no homeschool. There was no, nothing like that really existed. So they essentially just like sent me away to programs to try to fix me, starting with that Wilderness Academy. And then from there, I went to like a a boarding school that was like a therapeutic boarding school. And luckily I was able to get sober and change my life. But you know, it was still a bumpy road after that, but like, yeah, I mean, I, I, I hope that when people read this, because we, like you said, not everybody's in the same point as us.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  And some people, and I know that they are because they message me all the time, are in low points or, or not, you know, they don't have good jobs. They don't have good careers. They're, you know, financially unstable or like addicted to drugs. I have people that write me all the time, like, I can't quit drinking. I can't quit doing drugs.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  I hope that those people can read this book and, and, and go, if I just work hard, like I can get this place, but it takes a long time. And they can, and that can give them a little bit of hope, a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Because when you're in that tunnel, it's quite dark, especially when you can't see the end. And when I was young, I didn't see the end. I, I didn't know that I would be a successful battalion chief for a fire department, you know, content creator, all these things like, I mean, I didn't even know, like five years ago, I'd be a content creator, you know, and somehow here I am five years later and that's where I'm at. But hard work and like, you know, moving forward, it got me there.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  And that book kind of just like, it tells the story of how I went from kind of a up to very successful. But it's not a straight line and there's a lot of bumps and there's a lot of mess ups and setbacks throughout those years that I document because I don't want to just tell the pretty story. Like just because I got sober when I was young, I made mistakes in my twenties. I stumbled, I started using weed again and drinking alcohol and doing all those things. It didn't lead to good things, but then I was able to finally get it under control and go into a different direction. So, you know, life's a roller coaster. You have ups and downs and this book is a roller coaster of ups and downs. Yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  You know, and that's, you know, even life now, like my whole life is, is, is really, really good, but I have PTSD from my job. And in the book I talk about having PTSD, like, so even though I'm very happy in life, I have, you know, a beautiful family, I'm very successful. My brain is like, well, you have all these memories you can't forget and let's think about them nonstop, you know? And it's like, well, I don't want to think about them. Well, too bad, that's what we're going to do today. And then, you know, so there's, there's always like, you know, highs and lows in life. And I think, you know, being a human is just talking about those and like sharing them and letting people know so that when they're experiencing those lows, that it, it's helpful

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  for them too, because then they don't feel so alone. How, how do you deal with PTSD?

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, so right now I'm in a, in a, in a sort of a weird funk with it where I've, I've been experiencing, no, let me start over. Like, so when I experience PTSD normally it's short bursts, like I will get like two days to a week's worth of like really bad symptoms where I can't sleep, feel anxious, sort of.

• 1:11:15Cameron Hanes?

  Is it the memories from like, just?

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  A lot, I mean, a lot of times that's what'll trigger them.

• 1:11:21Cameron Hanes?

  Like hard, hard calls? From your job?

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:24Cameron Hanes?

  People dying and things like that?

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Suicides, horrible car accidents, people being burned alive. I mean,

• 1:11:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, a lot of.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Dead children.

• 1:11:33Cameron Hanes?

  Tragedy, yeah.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, stuff that like, I think the human body's not really meant to, to see.

• 1:11:38Cameron Hanes?

  Over and over.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, over and over times, you know, decades, right? Like, maybe if you see it once, but like, if you see it every day for, you know, long periods of time and you don't necessarily deal with it properly, or your brain doesn't deal with it properly, that, you know, i- it can become a problem. And so for, for like, at least five years, I've just dealt with it through exercise, cold plunge, and, and, and things like that where I would just keep myself busy. But lately, I, I don't know if it's just because I'm further along in my career, or I'm getting older or whatever, but I've had a harder time, like, turning it off. And so, like, right now,

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  I'm like, I'm dealing with like a therapist and like talking to him and there's some like scientific stuff that they can do now, which I haven't started yet, but like, it's called like EMDR, where I think they like flashlights in your eyes and like touch you certain ways. That sounded inappropriate, but yeah, yeah, yeah. But that, that basically like can reprogram where the memories are in the brain. So I think I'm gonna like move towards that direction right now because the exercise and the cold plunging, it, it works temporarily, but it's, it's not, it's not doing the trick.

• 1:12:57Cameron Hanes?

  And, and PTSD is like such an unknown illness or, or, or what is it?

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  I, I don't, I don't know if I'm the.

• 1:13:06Cameron Hanes?

  What's it, but it's like, it's so hard to, you know, it's not like, oh, I got this virus. Here's how, here's what you gotta do to fix it.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:14Cameron Hanes?

  To get, feel better.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:15Cameron Hanes?

  It's just like, what do you do with it?

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:17Cameron Hanes?

  You know, it's just, it can be like. So debilitating, but it's not like there's not a, an easy fix.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Well, it's weird when it's your brain.

• 1:13:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  Because it's just like in an ultra when you're having a hard time and it's like, you realize it's just your brain being like a, like a pussy.

• 1:13:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  You know, it's like.

• 1:13:33Cameron Hanes?

  Obsessing about the wrong shit.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, hey, you, you feel terrible, you feel terrible, then all of a sudden you feel great and you're like, well, did anything change?

• 1:13:40Cameron Hanes?

  Nothing changed.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  No, it's just my brain, right?

• 1:13:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  So, I mean, that's what's so frustrating is it's like your brain is like misfiring or like whatever it's doing and you don't have any control over it. And I mean, I, I like to have control, so it's like very debilitating to be in a situation where you don't have control. Where you just feel off and like, don't feel like yourself and you, it, for me, the hardest thing is like not being able to sleep.

• 1:14:07Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  You know, cause like when you can't sleep.

• 1:14:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Then that cascades into a bunch of other problems, right?

• 1:14:13Cameron Hanes?

  Exacerbates everything.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  It's hard to train, it's, and then, and then, so now it's like harder to run, it's harder to like, which running makes me feel good. And now I can't do that very, you know, and it just, I, I don't, I can't eat properly and on and on and on. It just, it makes life very, very challenging, so I'm confident, you know, that I'll be able to get a hold of it. I just, I'm just gonna work hard like I do on everything to like, to do everything I possibly can to, to get it under control. And then I'm gonna document it and then I'm gonna try to help other people get through it as well. Because right now, I mean, I, I talk about it a lot and I talk about it a lot as like a exercise, you know, cold plunge. I started beekeeping because, you know, hanging out with bees, you gotta stay calm and they match your energy.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  So I read some like papers about how bee, beekeeping can help with PTSD and I'm like, I'm gonna try it.

• 1:15:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  You know, and it, it does, it is very, um, it's very soothing.

• 1:15:06Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  So, but.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Overall, I want to help people, but I want to sort of change that culture and in my industry, the fire service, we don't like to, we don't like to talk about mental, you know, health. We want to be tough guys. We're all alpha males or alpha females and we don't like to like talk about it. So I'm talking about it. I'm letting people know that it's, it's okay to not feel okay. And, and hopefully helping, you know, a younger generation of firefighters know that like, you gotta start dealing with this stuff early because if you don't, like I didn't do, because in my young career, it was just like rub some dirt on it and keep moving

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  forward, that it's going to stack up and become an issue later. And unfortunately, in the fire service, we don't talk about it a lot, but like suicides are like an epidemic right now. And I'm, I'm sure that PTSD has a lot to do with the suicide rates, you know, because guys are struggling and then they turn, they either don't know how to deal with it, or they turn to drugs and alcohol as a way to deal with it, which is very common in the fire service. It's like, you get off shift, you've had a hard shift, you go have a couple beers, turns into more beers and you know, and you mask the problems through drugs and alcohol because they make you feel good temporarily and then, and then they don't, you know?

• 1:16:35Cameron Hanes?

  It's a, I mean, mental struggles is, doesn't mean you're weak.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:16:40Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and so that I think men especially, it's like a sign of weakness to say, oh, I'm struggling with this right now. Some men will hear a guy say that and judge them.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:50Cameron Hanes?

  You know, instead of saying, hey, I struggle too.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:53Cameron Hanes?

  So it's as simple as that. Instead of saying, hey, don't be a pussy, just say, hey, I struggle too sometimes.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:01Cameron Hanes?

  Here's what I do. And that, that one little interaction changes everything, you know, cause. We never wanna, we wanna act like we're not affected by anything. You know, as a man, as a man, as a leader, as whatever, we have to be tough. It's true. But nobody's tough all the time.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:18Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, we're humans.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:20Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, it's okay. And especially if you can't, if you can't say it to your brother, who you're, you know, I say brother, like, you know, work with or whatever, we have these bonds, then who are you gonna say it to?

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:31Cameron Hanes?

  You know, where are you gonna get help? Cause that's the guy who should be able to trust. And if somebody's coming to you and they, they're vulnerable and they're saying, I need help, I'm feeling down. Don't dismiss that.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Cameron Hanes?

  That's a critical time.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Cameron Hanes?

  And um, yeah, so I think, I, I think your story's gonna help, you know, and us talking about it and, you know, just verbalizing it. I just think that, yeah, it's so important.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Well, if anybody wants to tell me I'm not tough, like I'd love to, you know, it's like,

• 1:18:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  I, I think that, that's the, the, hopefully the helpful part is people see me as tough and they see me that I do all these very challenging, hard things. But then can also go, hey, but I'm struggling.

• 1:18:11Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  And I'm, you know, I'm a human being.

• 1:18:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  I'm not just a, a content creator, influencer, or whatever. Like, I'm a human who has struggles. It's okay, you know, but I'm, I'm still tough.

• 1:18:23Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, definitely. No, it's just this, you know, it's just guys mostly, just like putting on this facade.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Cameron Hanes?

  It's just, I've done it, you know, I'm not, I'm not judging anybody. I've, I'm as bad as, but I'm trying to.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Our, our generation struggles with it because we were raised a certain way. Gen X was raised a certain way where you did just rub dirt on it and you, and, and you did show no weakness or anything like that. And it's, it's great, but it, it only works for so long.

• 1:18:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  You know, and, and it's just different when you're police, fire, military, and you're just exposed to stuff that everybody else isn't exposed to on a daily basis.

• 1:19:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  Hundreds of times.

• 1:19:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  Thousands of times. Like it's, that, that's the real, the challenging thing is the human brain, I don't think is able, is not used to processing this type of stuff that we see like that much.

• 1:19:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  So, but.

• 1:19:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  You know, somebody's gotta do that job, you know, and somebody's gotta, you know, save, save lives and, you know, go to war and arrest people and do all the stuff and.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a, there's a consequence to it.

• 1:19:36Cameron Hanes?

  There's a price to pay for it sometimes. Yeah. And we just got to do a better job of identifying when there's an issue and helping correct it for sure because we need, we need you guys doing this. As you said, somebody has to do it. So.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:19:50Cameron Hanes?

  Um, I think your book is gonna help so many people. Um, and just, it's such a, just a beautiful story, but uh, what, um, or when does the book come out?

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  It comes out March 31st.

• 1:20:02Cameron Hanes?

  March 31st. So what, we're about a month away?

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, about a month away.

• 1:20:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Um, and they'll, people will be able to buy it everywhere.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:10Cameron Hanes?

  What's, what's your goal with the book? I mean, yeah, tell me your goal.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  I mean, just to sell as many copies as I can to, to reach as many people. I mean, I don't.

• 1:20:19Cameron Hanes?

  With your message?

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, with my, I mean, I, I don't, I don't know how it's gonna do. You know, it's like one of those weird things. I've never written a book. I've never, this is all so brand new to me and um, I just, I hope people enjoy it. I mean, I, it, it's very vulnerable when you write your life story.

• 1:20:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Cause there's gonna, there's a lot of stories, even my wife read it. She's like, I didn't know this about you. And you know, it's like, there's a lot of stories in there that are like very vulnerable. And now the world's gonna know those stories. So it's, it's a little weird, but um,

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  I guess the goal is just that it helps people, you know?

• 1:20:57Cameron Hanes?

  I think it, it's gonna make more of a connection for people to you because everybody goes through stuff like this. Not everybody talks about it.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:05Cameron Hanes?

  So when you do and you put, put yourself out there publicly to help others, you know, is what, that's our goal. We wanna help. You say you wanna sell a bunch, but I interpret that as you wanna help a bunch of people.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, when I say sell, I, I want it to reach as many people as possible.

• 1:21:21Cameron Hanes?

  Impact. You just wanna have that biggest impact as possible. But uh, Yeah, and it's it's hard to do that sometimes, but I think that's gonna it's gonna make you even more relatable. Um, it's gonna make this image here even more powerful because they'll hear what you came up had to come over to have this this mantra of smile or you're doing it wrong. And just be like, God, some people might think that, oh, you've never had a challenge in your entire life. That's why you got this, you know, sunshine attitude where no, actually been through a lot of shit and you still have it. So

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Cameron Hanes?

  You can also, you know, it's like that. That's the most powerful thing thing to me. I'm I'm excited for people to read this, but uh, and I'm I'm pumped you wrote it. Um, yeah, it's sick. Um, yeah. Where's the best place for people to get it? Amazon?

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, Amazon right now.

• 1:22:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, You can preorder right now.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Preorder right now. And then I also did audible or I did an audio book, which I think it'll be on audible and Spotify and all the other whatever.

• 1:22:27Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, at the same time.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, at the same time. Yeah. And then ebook and all everything. It's very, you know, very complicated when it's like all these other countries too. Cause it's like, I, I, I don't know how your books go, but like, you know, if you want to sell in Canada, you have to print it in Canada. And if you want to sell it in the EU, there's other rules and it's, it's very, cause I have an international audience. So it's very, it's complicated on how to get everybody the book.

• 1:22:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I understand. So, um, what's your goals with with running?

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  I mean, my biggest overarching goal is to get into hard rock, which, you know, I really want to do someday.

• 1:23:04Cameron Hanes?

  So you've never done hard rock?

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Never done hard rock. So it's like,

• 1:23:06Cameron Hanes?

  So that's like, so that's a race you haven't done. You want to?

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  If I had to like, say one thing that if a genie came down and be like, I want to run hard rock.

• 1:23:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  But, um,

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  I just want to keep experiencing races and having fun. I mean, for me, running is so fun that like, I'm just having a good time and um I have some big races this year that will be like huge goals. I'm doing that spine race in the UK.

• 1:23:33Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, are you?

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Which is.

• 1:23:34Cameron Hanes?

  That's a tough one.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 1:23:36Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  Two hundred and sixty eight miles with five aid stations.

• 1:23:39Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like ninety thousand feet of gain or something like that?

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  And and no crew, no support. So um and it's like in a bog. I don't even know what that is, but apparently it's like muddy water and stuff. So um yeah, I mean, getting out of my comfort zone, doing.

• 1:23:58Cameron Hanes?

  When's that?

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  It's in June.

• 1:24:00Cameron Hanes?

  June, okay.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  I get to do um I'm doing Arizona Monster three hundred, then I'm doing Cogadona, and then I'm doing the spine race. So it's like.

• 1:24:08Cameron Hanes?

  Dude.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's gonna be a it's like two months of uh eight hundred and something miles of races or something. It's it's gonna be crazy.

• 1:24:16Cameron Hanes?

  What uh you did Arizona Monster last year?

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:19Cameron Hanes?

  What stands out about that race?

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  I mean, I I like destination trail races. I think the aid stations are great. Um they take, you know, good food and all those things, which I that's important to me because.

• 1:24:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  An army marches on its stomach and an ultra running really is like running from restaurant to restaurant. That's how I always think of it. I'm like, oh, what what's this restaurant gonna have?

• 1:24:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  You know, oh, burgers? Cool. Oh, pasta? You know, um that was my first time running southern Arizona and it was really, really nice, really good trails, real runnable.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  The first thirty miles is absolutely beautiful. It's like you're almost running through the Grand Canyon.

• 1:25:00Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's really, really pretty. But um I mean, it's like one of the longest ultras out there.

• 1:25:08Cameron Hanes?

  Three hundred, yeah.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  It's kind of it's it's fun to. To do races where you're like, this is really far.

• 1:25:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  This is gonna take me a long time.

• 1:25:17Cameron Hanes?

  God.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  And I did it solo and unsupported, you know, or uncrewed.

• 1:25:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  Out there and it, yeah, it was, it was an experience.

• 1:25:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Cameron Hanes?

  I know Taylor did that one too.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. I saw, I saw him for just a little bit and then he took off.

• 1:25:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Took him a while to bounce back from that one.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:35Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, it's, it takes a lot out of you.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:38Cameron Hanes?

  Those exact, that's why I'm so impressed with you're able to turn this around back to back and do these crazy races, just right on the heels of each other.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  That's why I'm always like, kind of mid pack, you know, cause it's like, I'm, I'm never recovered. I'm always in like, you know, kind of in this weird space of like soreness and.

• 1:25:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  And whatnot, but uh, yeah. Taylor is lucky cause he, didn't he see a Gila monster? And I didn't get to see one. That was all I wanted to do the whole race. So maybe this year, I'll get, I'll get to see one. That'll be the goal.

• 1:26:07Cameron Hanes?

  So you do Arizona monster, then you do Coca dona for the, is this the fifth time or sixth time?

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  Sixth time.

• 1:26:13Cameron Hanes?

  Sixth time, yeah. Every, every.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Every, every year.

• 1:26:16Cameron Hanes?

  Haven't missed a year.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Haven't missed, there's six of us that have done it every single year.

• 1:26:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And Jeff Garmeyer is one of them, right?

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Jeff's there, yeah.

• 1:26:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  He's gonna be the hardest to beat, I think, out of everybody. We're doing a little competition to see who will be the last man standing.

• 1:26:31Cameron Hanes?

  Uh.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  You know, with like the Coca dona streak, so. I heard we're gonna lose one this year. He's gonna help his wife. So we'll see. I, everybody always says, oh, I'm not signing up.

• 1:26:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  It's, you can have it like blah, blah, blah, blah. We'll see.

• 1:26:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  They, they all talk shit until the race comes and then they all show up. So.

• 1:26:50Cameron Hanes?

  What uh, what stands out about your race last year, Coca dona? The weather sucked.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, well, the weather sucked. I mean, the nice thing about Coca dona is it changes every year.

• 1:27:01Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  Which some people don't like, but I like it because it gives you new trails to run and a different perspective. And I think last year that it all was very challenging. That section through Sedona was pretty crazy. I mean, to have to climb up those rocks and, and I mean, in the middle.

• 1:27:17Cameron Hanes?

  Was that new?

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  That was brand new.

• 1:27:19Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  We'd never done that before.

• 1:27:21Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, that was a hard section.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a hard section, but it was also like. That is an experience that you don't get in a lot of ultras.

• 1:27:28Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Because most ultras are like these nice curated trails. I mean, we were using our hands.

• 1:27:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  You know, if you fell, there was like, you know.

• 1:27:37Cameron Hanes?

  Consequence.

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  Consequences. So, um, I, I like that. But yeah, Coca Dona is, it, it changes every year and last year's was really, I, I thought it was a good change. So.

• 1:27:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Um, I'll be interested to see what that, I've already read that there's new changes this year too.

• 1:27:52Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  So, so we'll see.

• 1:27:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  You know, it's, it's exciting. Like, you know, what's it going to be like?

• 1:27:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  But, I mean.

• 1:28:00Cameron Hanes?

  The unknown.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Last year we had like, they had all that tree construction. Remember they were like chopping all those trees down?

• 1:28:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  One, one year there was a windstorm and you ran down this road and every like 10 feet, there was a tree you had to climb over because it had blown over. I mean, it's just always something different that you have to like.

• 1:28:20Cameron Hanes?

  That's a tough race.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  It's a tough race. It's a real, and, and now everybody wants to do it.

• 1:28:25Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  It's, ah, it's so hard to get into. But are you going to announce on the podcast today that you're going to do it or?

• 1:28:32Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:35Cameron Hanes?

  I hope I'm dead.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  I'm trying to put pressure on them.

• 1:28:37Cameron Hanes?

  No, but you did say like, you did throw out the UTMB.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:42Cameron Hanes?

  That, that would be fun.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think you should do UTMB with me for sure. That would be.

• 1:28:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, I'd love that. Um, and then so what's your goal for the spine race? Just to experience it?

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I, I want to get it. The way I've designed my trip is the faster I get it done, the more time I get to explore.

• 1:29:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  You know, England and Scotland and, you know, so I'm, I'm hoping I get it done with a couple of days to do some touristy stuff. But I also am like, I just, I don't, I don't know. I've looked at even the winners, their time is, is long.

• 1:29:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  It, so you know, it's, it's, it's a hard.

• 1:29:17Cameron Hanes?

  It's rough.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  It's a hard race. Um.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  I don't know how many, I think you have 120 hours or something like that.

• 1:29:25Cameron Hanes?

  You've got some time out there.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but 268 miles in.

• 1:29:30Cameron Hanes?

  With all that climbing?

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's, and there's no trail. It's, it's, you're self navigated.

• 1:29:35Cameron Hanes?

  Is that the one I'm thinking of right with the climbing or is that a different race?

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  You might be thinking of the Dragonback.

• 1:29:40Cameron Hanes?

  Is that what it is?

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  Which is the one that, I mean, this one has a lot of climbing to you. The Dragonback is stage race.

• 1:29:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  Where you do like 50K a day.

• 1:29:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  And there's all these like crazy pictures of like you going up these jagged rocks up and down.

• 1:29:54Cameron Hanes?

  I know, I thought I heard one. Is there another rate, name for the spine race?

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  So there's a winter spine and a summer spine.

• 1:30:01Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  And the winter one is all snow.

• 1:30:03Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  And those people are so hardcore.

• 1:30:05Cameron Hanes?

  I think that Jasmine Paris, didn't she win, win it?

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so, yeah, anyway.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  And then she went and, and finished Barclay.

• 1:30:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, first woman ever.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 1:30:15Cameron Hanes?

  It's legit.

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  It, yeah. You run basically from England to Scotland.

• 1:30:20Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  You know, but the Dragon's Back is another hard one. I am signed up for that one this year too, but I don't know if I, yeah. It's six days after UTMB, so we'll see.

• 1:30:30Cameron Hanes?

  You're glutton for punishment, actually.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, well, okay, so let's, let's, um, because you're so immersed in the sport, who's our winners for Cogadona this year?

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  I mean, Killian's coming in pretty strong. I mean, he won all the, the other races. I think it would be his to lose, but I mean, we'll see how, I don't, I mean, I know Max's race is, he's focused on Badwater, but I don't know if he's gonna put a lot of effort into Cogadona. I don't, I don't know how that goes, but you know, I think we all know Goggins is really gonna win it.

• 1:31:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I think everybody else will DNF when they see him line up.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah. At least he'll win the, uh, the, the audience award.

• 1:31:14Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, for sure, yeah. He'll have the, the most people tracking him.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  The live chat will just be like.

• 1:31:19Cameron Hanes?

  Goggins, Goggins.

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, stay hard.

• 1:31:21Cameron Hanes?

  Stay hard, yeah, I know, it's gonna be sick. What about the women though?

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  That's gonna be a hard one between.

• 1:31:28Cameron Hanes?

  If you'd say anything other than Courtney, yeah, you're in big trouble.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  I, I really hope Courtney has a better race than she did last year.

• 1:31:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, but hey, we're also, we love Rachel too.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  I, I, I think it's gonna be a good race. I think, you know, iron sharpens iron and those two are going to push each other and it's gonna be, that's gonna be fun to just watch.

• 1:31:48Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man, I can't wait.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Two high caliber people that are like, close in talent, like line up, it's gonna be, it's gonna be fun.

• 1:31:57Cameron Hanes?

  It's gonna be sick.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Cameron Hanes?

  I just know that that start line last year, you know, I've, it's been a while since I did a 200. I didn't even know if I could even do it. I'm just like, I'm too old for this shit, but that start line, that atmosphere, like I know why you love. It's you could, if you could bottle that excitement and energy and just the atmosphere there, it's just like, you could, you know, sell it for who knows how much because there's nothing like it.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:23Cameron Hanes?

  We're lining up to run over 250 miles through the mountains.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Which is gonna take us days.

• 1:32:28Cameron Hanes?

  Days and everybody's just amped.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:31Cameron Hanes?

  And the unknown is out there and you don't know, you know, you're gonna have to overcome so much shit. You don't know what it's gonna be though.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:38Cameron Hanes?

  It's just like, that is so exciting.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  It is. And then it, it goes off and, and all the butterflies go away and you're just like, okay, focus on the task. Let's do this.

• 1:32:48Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man, it is, it's life changing, dude.

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:52Cameron Hanes?

  Doing that shit, it changes you for sure.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  And I, I hear that so much from people that, that message me, you know, they did their first ultra, not a 50K, maybe a hundred miler. And, uh, you know, they, they, they say it. It's like, it changed them and changed their, like, the way they see the world. And I think it really does help you be more successful in the world, navigating it when you can do those like hard things in a controlled environment.

• 1:33:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  You know, cause at the end of the day, you can tap out.

• 1:33:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  If life's throwing you hard things, you, you can't necessarily tap out without consequences.

• 1:33:26Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  In a race. The consequences are, you know, you feel like shit about yourself.

• 1:33:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  Right? But like, in, in general, that's not that huge a consequence.

• 1:33:35Cameron Hanes?

  Right. But if you can overcome it, then you get the confidence to overcome all sorts of other shit in life.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:33:41Cameron Hanes?

  You know, when, when the stuff comes up, because you're like, no, I did this. This was the hardest thing I've ever done. I had to overcome it. I have to have a good attitude. I had to keep pushing forward. And then when life throws you whatever, you're like, I'm good.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:52Cameron Hanes?

  I'm good. I know. I believe in myself.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:54Cameron Hanes?

  I know I can do hard things. And that's the greatest lesson for people who are successful at ultras. It's just like, it changes what they can overcome and how they think about things and look at challenge. It's beautiful.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  And if you notice in ultra running, so many high performers go and get into ultra running.

• 1:34:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  Because they're, they want an extra, they're like, my life is so challenging, but I want to do something harder.

• 1:34:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, like that Ann, Ann Flower, I think was, right? She won Leadville.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:23Cameron Hanes?

  ER doctor.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say, ER doctors, I run with anesthesiologists, you know, all sorts of like, you know, CEOs and, and all these like people that are so successful in life. And I ran with some guy that's like one of the head military guys who's in charge of all the like reserve Marines and, but they're out there doing the same thing, struggling and figuring it out, out there. And, and you'll find that a lot in ultra running. We definitely have a good mix of, of very, very powerful people.

• 1:34:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. No, it's, uh, it's definitely high achievers, like you said. So like, there's something to it. It's like, you never, it's seldom you see people who struggle in life who get into ultras. You know, it's like, it's like, no, this, so maybe if you are struggling in life, maybe an ultra would be the answer to your struggle.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  It could teach you some things.

• 1:35:12Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I think so. It's like, um, yeah, and do a 50K. You don't have to, you don't have to do it 800 mile or.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  I started with 50Ks.

• 1:35:22Cameron Hanes?

  Me too. Everybody does.

• 1:35:23Speaker 01

  And I, well, you know, I feel like there's a slight movement where people kind of want to just go straight to the hundred. And, and, and I think if you do that, you're going to get burnt out, you know? I tell people, do a couple 50Ks, do a couple 50 milers, 100K, and then you can go to 100 mile.

• 1:35:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  You know, like, one, one, because you just need to figure out your nutrition and your hydration.

• 1:35:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:46Speaker 01

  Right? I mean.

• 1:35:47Cameron Hanes?

  I know. I'm still trying.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  But if you don't do that, it's, you know, it's pretty challenging. I'm okay. So, but people don't listen.

• 1:35:58Cameron Hanes?

  No, we want to figure it out on our own. James, what do you got for Andy? I know you got some stupid questions.

• 1:36:05Speaker 02

  The moment everybody's been waiting for.

• 1:36:08Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, which means nobody.

• 1:36:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:36:13Speaker 02

  So you know what's, you know what's coming?

• 1:36:18Speaker 02

  Mary kill.

• 1:36:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:20Speaker 02

  Winning an ultra, fighting a fire, or finishing the audio version of your book?

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  Well, could be the audio version. No, kill. Oh, kill. Yeah, yeah, would be that. Could be a fire.

• 1:36:33Speaker 02

  No, no, it was when you finished, like, the relief you had after you finished reading the book.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:36:39Speaker 02

  Out loud.

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  I would still say kill that.

• 1:36:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you never want to do that.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  I never want to even like, think about that again.

• 1:36:47Cameron Hanes?

  That was way harder than writing it, wasn't it?

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was, that was the most miserable experience of my life, honestly, like.

• 1:36:53Cameron Hanes?

  I agree.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  If I could have done it again, I probably wouldn't have done it in my voice. I would have used one of those AI apps that like you talk into and then it uses your voice. I'm like.

• 1:37:03Cameron Hanes?

  I know, but do you think that has the same inflection?

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't. But I.

• 1:37:07Cameron Hanes?

  It'd be easier.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  Every time I hear Rogan be like, shade in your voice. And it got, I was like, oh, but Rogan, come on.

• 1:37:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  Have you tried it? Cause it's terrible.

• 1:37:16Cameron Hanes?

  I know he hasn't.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  He hasn't, but he talks all day.

• 1:37:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, so it's like. He'd probably just, it'd be easy for him.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  He's like, easy for him to, but I'm so dyslexic, just having to read that on that screen and it's up there and I'm like, oh, it was, it was, I was bad. I'm like nervous to even listen to it because I want to see how they edited together with all my mess ups.

• 1:37:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Um, so that's the worst one. And then what is Mary and kill or Marion?

• 1:37:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Marion.

• 1:37:41Speaker 02

  Winning an ultra and fighting a fire.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Our Mary, the, the, winning the ultra.

• 1:37:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you want to do that every day.

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  And meaning like have sex with?

• 1:37:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the fire. Yeah, that's the best.

• 1:37:53Cameron Hanes?

  So, so every once in a while it'd be good to go.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Just, what's that called?

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  You can't, you can't fight too many fires because then that takes away the, the specialness of it, but it's.

• 1:38:04Cameron Hanes?

  Every once in a while, one night stand.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's a good, it's a good like. Yeah.

• 1:38:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  Well, another question we've asked to ultra runners. I'm going to skip the 50 K question because I think you pretty much answered that. But if you could switch minds with one other athlete during an ultra, who would you choose?

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  I mean, I would, I would love to know what Goggins's mind is like. I think that would be really, really fascinating. It'd either be really quiet or it'd be like really loud. Like, does he yell to himself in his, in his mind? Or is it just like, just that like suffering moving forward? But his mindset is so intense that I, I would love to just, you know, just taste it for a second. And see what it's like.

• 1:38:54Cameron Hanes?

  Why, why do like, you know, there's a lot of memes on ultra. Why do they pick Goggins to, to use for memes? Like, I always see, I don't know. Like, they always say stuff like, um, who's going to win? Or the greatest ultra runner of all time? People joke like Goggins. Why do they do that?

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  I, I mean, anytime somebody has a huge platform, they're like, you know, come after.

• 1:39:17Cameron Hanes?

  They're ripe, they're ripe for the.

• 1:39:19Speaker 01

  You know? And

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  I think, you know, people, Goggins is huge, but like, if you look at his ultra sign up, nobody knew about him back when he was like crushing stuff.

• 1:39:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:39:31Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  He did all this stuff sort of in a vacuum of nobody knew who he was.

• 1:39:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  And then he wrote book, got famous, everything. And he's, he's done races since then, but like his heyday.

• 1:39:44Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah. He's crushing it.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Nobody, you know?

• 1:39:47Cameron Hanes?

  It's before social media.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. And so I think people underestimate how good he was back then.

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  And now it's like, they want to talk shit, but he's like, he's old and he's broken. So it's like, and he's still getting it. Yeah. That's everyone's goal, right? It's like, yeah, we all are going to break. We're all going to, we're all going to have problems. We're all going to get old and as we get old. Things, things happen, but if you can still go out there and grind with all those ailments and all those problems, like, that's, that's inspiring. See, again, like going back to like, you know, a human that's not like this pro athlete, but somebody that like does all these other things and then still can perform, that to me is inspiring.

• 1:40:29Cameron Hanes?

  I agree.

• 1:40:30Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:40:30Cameron Hanes?

  I agree. Yeah. Cause I mean, I think at one time he had the world record, he ran eight consecutive hundred mile races on eight consecutive weekends, you know, I mean, and he's also finishing up, you know, up near the front of most of it.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  I mean, he does what, like I looked at his like UTMB time and it was like incredible.

• 1:40:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  And this is back when like, I don't even know how he found out about UTMB. It was like a long,

• 1:40:53Cameron Hanes?

  It was years ago.

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was before I did it. And like, I, I don't even, I found out about through watching a random YouTube video, you know, so he, he was doing the hard things before it was cool to do the hard things.

• 1:41:06Cameron Hanes?

  And he does so much shit and nobody ever knows about it. Like he's always in the Grand Canyon training.

• 1:41:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:12Cameron Hanes?

  And you never see one picture of him there.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:41:15Cameron Hanes?

  I mean,

• 1:41:16Speaker 01

  Or he'll go run and have his wife follow him in a car.

• 1:41:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for a hundred miles.

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there might be one quick video of like, there's David running a hundred miles again. But like, we know that he was out there for eighteen hours or whatever.

• 1:41:29Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Like sweating and, and struggling.

• 1:41:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:32Speaker 01

  With, with, with nothing, you know? And yeah.

• 1:41:35Cameron Hanes?

  He's a legend, dude. Yeah. I mean, I think Mark Dowdell had something on his page or somebody's talking shit about Goggins. And I would just, I remember I commented, I just said, these young guys, this, they're not even in the game.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:49Cameron Hanes?

  It's just like, you're, you're missing the point. If you think beating Goggins right now is, it's like, no, he's a legend. You should beat him now. He's 50. Like, what the are you talking about? And it's just like, instead of just honoring what it took for him to build this legend of Goggins and to do all he's done. And now he's still getting it done, still doing multiple 200 years or 200 milers a year at 50 years old. You need to just settle down.

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  And 200s are fricking hard.

• 1:42:20Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, my God, dude.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  You know, it's not like he's, yeah.

• 1:42:23Cameron Hanes?

  And he has some good performances too. Like, I know he was, I think, top 20 or so, something at, I don't know, was it Moab?

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  I think it was Bigfoot.

• 1:42:32Cameron Hanes?

  Or Bigfoot.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  It might've been Moab too. I mean, the both times, like,

• 1:42:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:35Speaker 01

  He did well, like.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, people just, you know, we all know the haters are out there and then, you know, I know they come after you, they come after me, they come after him, like, it doesn't matter, like, it's easy to throw stones, you know, so especially with the keyboards and the, you know, screens that everybody hides behind.

• 1:42:54Cameron Hanes?

  Especially for douchebags.

• 1:42:57Cameron Hanes?

  What else you got?

• 1:42:59Speaker 02

  Talking about the fact that both of you have written books on your life story, maybe not to the level of writing a full book, but do you find that reliving moments in your life and jotting those down, taking note, remembering them, there's some kind of therapeutic element to that and it, you know, maybe not everybody has to write a book on their, on their life, but just remember parts of it, write it down, recount those stories. Do you think there's some kind of therapeutic element to that?

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, so I, I journal every morning when I wake up and, and I find that really therapeutic. But yeah, writing that book was extremely therapeutic. It was very emotional. And then I'm sure, you know, when you write a book, you have to read it a million times, right? Because every time they throw an edit at you, every time there's any changes, they're like, hey, can you reread this and make sure everything's accurate and, and, and correct? And, and that's emotional too, because you're rereading your, you know, what you wrote. And then I'm sure now it's going to be therapeutic because like my mom's reading it right now, which is like, and then I'm having conversations with my mom about my childhood that I'd never really had before. And, and, and that's, I think that's really

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  good as well.

• 1:44:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:16Speaker 01

  So, yeah, definitely, you know, I think it's just a net positive when you sit down and, and write out your thoughts. And I would encourage people to do it. I think if you wake up in the morning and journal, it sounds weird, but even if you write just a, like a page about what's going on in your life, or what your goal is for that day, or what your goal is for that week. It's helpful over time and especially if you look back when my dad died, I got all his stuff and one of the things he gave me was a notebook that had all his goals written down from nineteen seventy eight on and it was just interesting to see how his goals had shifted,

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  which ones he had like achieved and and the funny thing is the only thing he didn't achieve was he wanted to kill a polar bear.

• 1:45:05Cameron Hanes?

  Really?

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and like nineteen seventy eight, it was like, kill a polar bear. But he never, that was the only thing.

• 1:45:11Cameron Hanes?

  That's a tough one.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a tough one.

• 1:45:13Cameron Hanes?

  It's expensive.

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but um, yeah, so I, I think, you know, writing those things down, it, it makes it more real and then it also, it makes your brain kind of think about it in a different way and it will be, it will be helpful.

• 1:45:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, um, you know, when you explaining that and talking about how you had to go back over, do you, do you think that, I mean, I think it's probably is a positive because it's going to allow you to deal with this trauma, maybe you had buried, but do you think that PTSD by reliving some of that has cropped back up from some of that maybe, but again, that's how you, that's how you can address it.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't write anything in the book about all the terrible calls I've been on.

• 1:45:59Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't, I, I mean, I talk about having PTSD and I talk about, you know, why I have it and things like that, but I didn't get into like the details, the things that caused me the, the worst PTSD symptoms is just like thinking about just horrible things I've seen.

• 1:46:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  You know, and, and I don't, you know, I've been speaking about it with a therapist, which has been helpful, but like, um, yeah, I, I didn't want to like get into all the gory, you know, details of, oh, I saw this or, you know, I experienced this and, um, and I think most of like, you know, I had horrific things happen to my, me like everybody does in their life and. I think I feel pretty good about a lot of the things that happened in my life, just because I can see that I've dug myself out of that. But for whatever reason, the memories from work have not been able to, you know, alleviate in the same way.

• 1:46:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but, but maybe the tools you've used like in addressing some of the stuff in your regular life, maybe you'll still use those. Or maybe you'll, you'll develop those through therapy. I mean,

• 1:47:06Speaker 01

  I, I think it's multifaceted, right? You gotta, you gotta use lots of different approaches. There's no,

• 1:47:10Cameron Hanes?

  Life is messy.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no one size fits all. You know, it's like the running does help. So does the cold plunging, you know, and so does beekeeping. And, you know, if talking helps and medication helps other people. And it's like, whatever helps, you know, whatever, like, you know, some people, there's ketamine therapy and there's, uh, you know, psychedelics. I mean, there's so many things you can do, but you gotta do something.

• 1:47:35Cameron Hanes?

  Bowhunting.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Bowhunting. Yeah.

• 1:47:37Cameron Hanes?

  Archery. See, now you got another one, archery.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  I, I mean, I can see it because you really have to focus, right? And there's like, there's a methodical method to doing the whole process. Like I was taught today, like you do this and then you do that, and then you do this. And if you do all this the same, but there's focus in doing that.

• 1:47:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  And, and when you focus on something over and over again, it's very soothing.

• 1:48:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  I mean, that's what running is, right? You're doing the same thing over and over again, and you're, and it's very soothing.

• 1:48:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's a, you know, I, I don't want to dismiss the, the power of writing and sharing your thoughts on paper. Because when we're dead and gone, our families are going to have these books and they're going to have these memories. Just, just as you found your dad's journal and the polar bear thing, they're going to have little nuggets in here that maybe we didn't talk about ever. But you, you covered it in your book, you know, so maybe, maybe your kids hadn't heard it. You said your wife didn't even know some of this stuff. So that is like powerful in its own way. But it's also as a human, just, just reliving that, thinking about how it impacted you and thinking about, yeah, I, I overcame that and I'm okay. That is huge.

• 1:48:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, there's gonna be other things that come up, but like when we talk about today with you shooting with an archery and shooting a bow, we need to have those sayings where our minds just aren't running wild with these crazy thoughts and we can turn into, you know, who knows what? Because when you're shooting, you have to think about all the things, do it exactly the same. You can't be thinking about anything else and do that. That's why it's, it's, archery is therapeutic, therapeutic in its own way, because running even, you can kind of zone out and you can get lost in your thoughts running with doing, like shooting arrows today, man, you gotta think about a lot of stuff.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  A lot of stuff and you gotta, and you gotta really focus and you're trying to hit a target. So it's like, if you're not focused, you know, where's that arrow gonna go? It's like, you gotta make sure that it hits the target. So.

• 1:49:36Cameron Hanes?

  And one thing, like, I don't know if people, you know, we have it on video, but dude, you can shoot. You are so accurate.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's the bow and the, and the instructor.

• 1:49:47Cameron Hanes?

  No, no, because we've had the same bow and the same instructor with many people and they don't shoot as good as you did. So you, you were amazing. As far, your group was, I mean, it's, there's people who shoot for years who don't shoot as well as you did today.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  He, he was doing all the adjustments. I'm gonna give all credit to him.

• 1:50:06Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, Wayne, yeah, Wayne. I call him the herd bull because, you know, like a herd of elk, you got one bull that runs, runs the herd. Everybody knows he's the boss.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:17Cameron Hanes?

  So I call Wayne the herd bull. He's a herd bull of the bow rack. But he loves instructing and sharing his knowledge with, with others and helping new archers. And he's so good at it.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  He's so good.

• 1:50:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's just the way he like teaches is, is, is really, it's like soothing and calming and then just like informative.

• 1:50:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And, you know, we talked about where, where do adults like share experiences with people? We talked about running and things like that. Where do you meet people? You know, um, I think you mentioned a few other, a few places, but you saw the bow rack today. That's a great place to meet like-minded people. Cause there's people in there that wanted to meet you, are taking pictures with you. There's people talking to me, but it's all. So healthy and so it's like a whole different world. I you know, when when Rachel was here, we went in there. She didn't know anything about archery and archery pro shop and it's just like this whole different mix of people all doing cool stuff. They're all interested in in archery and it's just, I love it.

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's great.

• 1:51:20Cameron Hanes?

  I love it.

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  Again, getting out of your comfort zone, you know, that's.

• 1:51:23Cameron Hanes?

  But they they embrace you, you know, I mean, you're a vegan, vegetarian, whatever. Don't eat meat, don't have a hunted since you were a kid. Obviously, your dad was a hunter and your uncle, I think, was a hunter. But it's like, you're not, but you're still embraced in there and accepted.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:38Cameron Hanes?

  And that's, that's awesome. I love it.

• 1:51:40Speaker 01

  It's great. Yeah. You've definitely got me out of my comfort zone. Again, talk about how you made me run on a track today.

• 1:51:48Cameron Hanes?

  You tell me about it. How was it?

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  So we ran 10 hard mountain miles. I'm just gonna say, you know, which way out of my comfort zone.

• 1:51:56Cameron Hanes?

  What's your heart rate get up to?

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  203.

• 1:51:59Cameron Hanes?

  That's a PR, dude.

• 1:52:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I didn't think I could get that high. So a lot of six and seven minute miles for me. And then we finished and it's like, all right, now we're gonna do a track workout. So we ran one lap. And then Cam's like, all right, how how fast do you think you can run this? I'm like, I don't even know anything about this. You think you can do 90 seconds? I'm like, well, what is, what's the speed on that? Like, he's like 615. I'm like, all right. So, yeah, I took off. I think I did between a 515 and a 530 mile for that loop.

• 1:52:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you did great.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  Probably the fastest I've run in 20 years, but got it done and.

• 1:52:35Cameron Hanes?

  Did great.

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was super fun. Yeah. But I'm sure there'll be some hilarious photos of me just.

• 1:52:42Cameron Hanes?

  No, you're gonna look shredded, dude. You're gonna look shredded and just like, you see Usain Bolt, like an image of Usain Bolt running. It's gonna be very similar.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  I gave it everything I had.

• 1:52:52Cameron Hanes?

  You did.

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  There's some, I'm sure there's some facial pictures.

• 1:52:54Cameron Hanes?

  No, I can't wait to see him. I don't know why I haven't seen him yet. James, what the fuck have you been doing? But, uh, no, you did, you did amazing. Dude, it's like, the experience of sharing like all those miles, meeting all the people that we met, sharing like my favorite trails with you, getting on the track where my dad, of course, coached track for so many years.

• 1:53:18Cameron Hanes?

  I just like, you know, I tell people this all the time. This isn't for the guests. This is all for me. I pretend like I'm doing it for other people like, oh, like you got a bow. You, you did this and that. It's just like, no, this is for me. I just love spending time with people like you.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  This is an immersive experience when you come on this podcast. It was like, I had no idea what to expect. And it was like, yeah, we've spent two full days together, just hanging out and like, having a fun, good time. And it, and it's been amazing.

• 1:53:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm super thankful, dude. I mean, I'm so thankful, you know, we'd seen each other races before. And I think, you know, you were at Leadville, we were at Coca Dona together and, uh, but yeah, I didn't know you know you. But man, you're such a good human. I'm so thankful for your friendship and for this time we've had. It's like, it means so much to me.

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  Me too. And, and now I look forward to the future.

• 1:54:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  It's gonna be good.

• 1:54:13Cameron Hanes?

  Keep kicking ass. Do you have more, James?

• 1:54:15Speaker 02

  I just have one more.

• 1:54:16Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:54:18Speaker 02

  Courtesy of Craig Francis. Who are two people you'd like to see on the podcast?

• 1:54:22Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, let's see. Who would be a good immersive experience person or two of them?

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  I mean, I'd like you to, I'd like to see Kyle from the Knuck Boys.

• 1:54:40Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  Who I just did that 100 miler with. I think he would be really, really interesting to, to interview and outside. And he just did his first ultra.

• 1:54:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  So, you know, I think that would be interesting.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  And then Gary Breck, his son Cole is, uh,

• 1:54:59Cameron Hanes?

  He runs, doesn't he?

• 1:55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. He, he, so he did, he did the 100 with him as too. But he's about to do some crazy thing where I think he's doing 10 Ironmen in a row or something like that. But. Just also a beast and like very similar to his dad and and just has an interesting story. I I think he would be he'd be interesting as well.

• 1:55:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I'll have to look him up. I think I saw a reference or I think I saw Gary was talking about him doing something. Maybe it was that.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, him and Gary did that seven, seven, seven, the marathons.

• 1:55:34Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah. Seven different continents.

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm thinking about doing that.

• 1:55:37Cameron Hanes?

  The world marathon, right?

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm thinking about doing it this year. We'll see.

• 1:55:41Cameron Hanes?

  You should. Well, you're not doing anything else.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  I know. It's like I only have like fifteen ultras. So, you know, like, what's another couple of marathons, you know, it's just a week.

• 1:55:50Cameron Hanes?

  Just among friends.

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I tried to get my son. I'm like, you want to do it? He's like, you think I can do seven marathons in a row? I'm like, we'll find out. He's like, no.

• 1:55:58Cameron Hanes?

  So it's in seven days?

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:00Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, that see, it is only a week.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's just a week.

• 1:56:03Cameron Hanes?

  A lifetime of memories in one week?

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, you get to go on all seven continents.

• 1:56:08Cameron Hanes?

  Dude.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  When are you going to be able to run a marathon in Antarctica?

• 1:56:10Cameron Hanes?

  How much does it cost? I would do that.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  It's expensive.

• 1:56:13Cameron Hanes?

  Is it like sixty grand?

• 1:56:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because you're on a private jet.

• 1:56:16Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  Business class. So you can because you're literally like get on the plane.

• 1:56:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  You're laying down and then you go to the next.

• 1:56:24Cameron Hanes?

  Perfect.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  Next place.

• 1:56:25Cameron Hanes?

  That makes the biggest difference.

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. But like I'm just saying, like, it's like Antarctica to South Africa to like Australia, Dubai, Portugal, Colombia, and then Miami.

• 1:56:39Cameron Hanes?

  Be sick, dude.

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:40Cameron Hanes?

  When is it?

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  It's not till November. Nobody does anything in November anyways.

• 1:56:46Cameron Hanes?

  Maybe I need it. Is it sold out?

• 1:56:47Speaker 01

  I don't. I don't think so. I have. I have the owner's information. I'll give it to you.

• 1:56:52Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  I'm working on. I'm working on getting a sponsor.

• 1:56:55Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, gotcha.

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, sixty grand. That's that's a bit high for me, but I'm talking to some companies right now that that might foot the bill so that I can do it.

• 1:57:03Cameron Hanes?

  I might have to give up an Elkhart, then I could go.

• 1:57:07Cameron Hanes?

  No, that's a good question, James. Thanks for those two ideas. But, uh, yeah, what an awesome experience, Andy. Dude, I'm so thankful for you and I just want you, I want this to kick ass. I want this to be on New York Times Bestseller list. I want so many people to be inspired and just positively impacted by you like I have been. And I'm just, I'm very thankful that you're, you're who you are.

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  Well, thanks for having me and you know, it's, it's been an honor.

• 1:57:37Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, thank you. Well, good to hang out with you.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  Good to hang out with you too.

• 1:57:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right, guys. I hope you enjoyed this. Keep hammering.