Three Mayors On The Future Of Tech in the U.S.

Mayor Francis Suarez of Miami, Mayor Satya Rhodes-Conway of Madison, and Mayor Steve Adler of Austin join Big Technology Podcast to discuss the future of tech in the U. S. They’re showing up on a tech podcast because they see an opportunity to take some of the growth once headed to the Bay Area, and bring it home. They may have a chance. Out of the four mayors I asked to be on the show, only San Francisco Mayor London Breed declined. That says something. What’s clear from speaking with the mayors is that remote work is not going away anytime soon, and that presents opportunities for people and cities that simply were not there before. This will have an impact on the country’s economy, and the tech industry as well, for reasons we discuss. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 0:43Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 1:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hello and welcome to the Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. I'm Alex Kantrowitz and this is a special episode. Three US mayors join us today to talk about the future of technology in the United States. They are Mayor Francis Suarez of Miami, Mayor Satya Rhodes Conway of Madison, and Mayor Steve Adler of Austin. Now, look, they're showing up on a tech podcast because they see an opportunity to take some of the growth once headed to the Bay Area and bring it home. Though us residents of San Francisco and its environs know that such growth can come with its own challenges. Now, listen to this. Out of the four mayors I asked to be on the show, only one said no, San Francisco Mayor London Breed. And that, to me, says something.

• 2:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  What's clear from speaking with the mayors you're about to hear from though, is that remote work is not going away anytime soon. And that presents opportunity for people and cities that simply was not there before. This is going to have an impact on our country's economy and the tech industry as well, for reasons we're about to discuss. Okay, let's start with Miami Mayor Francis Suarez, who runs the buzziest city on the future of tech circuit. Now, I got ahold of some LinkedIn data from last year that showed that while Miami is adding tech workers, it's only adding them a bit faster than before the pandemic. And I'll reference this data throughout. So I'll start with Mayor Suarez trying to get to the truth of what's actually happening in Miami. And I think that when you listen, you'll hear that there's substance behind the man with the extremely active Twitter account.

• 2:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  We got into really nice debate. Okay, without further ado, here is my conversation with Miami Mayor Francis Suarez. Mayor Suarez, welcome to the show.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. It's an honor to be with you.

• 2:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's great to have you here. We've been talking a little bit on Twitter, but it's nice to be able to have a more long form discussion outside of 280 characters.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 3:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, although I know you are adept at those 280 character conversations. So let's start here. So last year I published some data from LinkedIn. And that showed that for every tech worker leaving Miami, 1.14 was coming in, which is an increase, no doubt. But it seems like a slight increase. So, and that's LinkedIn's data and people gave me some trouble. Oh, why are you publishing LinkedIn data? Go to the source. And now I'm with the source. You're the mayor of Miami. What does your data say about the amount of tech workers that are moving into Miami? If you have any.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  You know, there isn't any real good data that I've seen. It's all anecdotal. I think, you know, clearly it's, there's a brain gain versus a brain drain that we've been, we have been seeing. We've been an intellectual talent exporter.

• 3:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  No doubt.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  For decades. So the fact that we're already on the positive side is a huge improvement over decades of being on the negative side for, for, for a long time. So that's, that's a good statistic. I think that, that number has only been accelerated in the last 60 to 90 days, just based on all the anecdotal, I mean, the people that I'm meeting with, the people that I'm, I'm speaking to and seeing. I mean, it's incredible what's happening here. There isn't anybody that of, of weight and significance in tech that I haven't spoken to or seen in the last two months.

• 4:25Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I was gonna fast forward and end the interview with this, but now that you've mentioned that you've spoken with everyone, what's going on with you and Elon Musk? I know that you guys have a relationship and apparently are speaking in, you know, the coming days. So, so what do you, what do you, how's your relationship with him? And what are you talking about?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  We should be speaking tomorrow. And, you know, our relationship started on Twitter, as many of my relationships have started, tweeting at four o'clock in the morning about things of mutual interest. And he's a visionary. He's someone who is, you know, sort of an engineer at heart, a problem solver. And for him, the big issue is how do you solve major problems in the world? And the one that we're focusing on is urban transportation. It's been a passion of mine for my entire public service career. I was advised-

• 5:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  So he's gonna come dig tunnels?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Well, he's gonna, yeah, that's what we're gonna talk about. And I'm actually considering going to Las Vegas as well to see the tunnels that he's digging over there. So that, that's a trip that we're planning for mid-February. So I think, you know, to me, what's amazing about his company is that it does it in a 100x cheaper fashion than what's being done in other parts of the country. And I think that's something that you cannot ignore. And certainly having the attention of the world's richest person, who is the most probably ingenious person, even more important than his wealth. It's just not something you can ignore.

• 5:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. So you mentioned that, you know, it was, you've had anecdotal data, and I wanted to get at that, because some folks have said, like, you know, Keith Raboy and Emile Michael are in Miami, and then they see your Twitter account, and they say that's the extent of the Miami tech scene. So tell me this, okay, the hiring that you're seeing inside Miami, is it from big tech companies? Is it from startups? Or is it just, you know, what a lot of people assume, which is that a few people have decamped to the city in the middle of the pandemic, they're enjoying the nice weather, you and I joked about that in the past, and then eventually they'll move back to New York or San Francisco. So where is the hiring coming from? And how are you sure that this stuff is permanent?

• 6:32Speaker 01

  So, if we're sort of multiple choice exam, it would be C, which is A and B, right? And and so we're seeing

• 6:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Big companies and startups.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  We're seeing big companies like Blackstone, like Starwood, JP Morgan, Goldman.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  And we're seeing big founders like Peter Thiel and Keith Rabois and Lucy Gu and others that are that are coming here, John Oranger from Shutterstock. And then we're seeing them startup companies and and and either recruiting talent or hiring talent from here. So the ecosystem is experiencing what I would consider a J curve moment. It's like a startup that has been taking 10 years to build and it got its first big infusion of VC capital. Right? So we're starting to see a major scale. You know, to what extent that scale is, to what extent, how profound it is. I can tell you, there's a few things I can tell you. One is for every one or two Keith Rabois and

• 7:31Speaker 01

  and and John Orangers that we talk about, there's a good 10 to 20 that don't want to be talked about that are here. And I think that's something that, you know, when I talk to people, they're constantly relaying that. Second thing I would tell you is if you talk to people like Keith, when you look at the density issue, right? He would tell you and others would tell you the same thing because I've had these Cafecito tech talks where I've been constantly having what seems like a, you know, Groundhog Day conversation. They would tell you we've met more interesting, more profound and more

• 8:04Speaker 01

  you know, important people in three weeks, a week, a month in Miami than we had in the three years prior in Silicon Valley. So there is a density of that really top tier talent here. You know, the second question about, you know, how long will it last? Or is this a fleeting thing? Is this a moment or movement? Right? And I think that question has yet to be answered fully. I think there are of 10, maybe five that are the Keith Rabois, hey, I'm buying a $30 million house. A lot of them are buying property. I'm buying a $30 million house. And and and you know, I'm making a big bet on Miami. I believe that we can build a ecosystem like they did in New York, like they did in Los Angeles. And then I think five of them are like dipping their toe in the water to some extent, right? Three month lease, six month lease, nine month lease, a month lease.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  And what Keith often says, which I'm repeating because we did a talk the other day was, I just want him here for a month. If I get him here for a month, I know I have him for good.

• 8:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, and you know, it's one of the weird things about this whole situation. And first of all, like, I know that some people are saying they've probably met more interesting people in a couple of weeks, but I think there is definitely a bias from the people who are moving to Miami to hate on Silicon Valley and like use that as positioning. So I kind of question that, but let's put that aside for a moment. The one of the interesting things about this movement is like it's come in a moment where location doesn't matter. Right? And so people like, I don't need to be in San Francisco anymore. I don't need to be in the in the Bay Area. But yet the other side of this is that location does matter a lot. And that location that people are talking about is Miami.

• 9:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  So I guess like I'd love to hear from your perspective, you must have been thinking about this. Why in a time when location doesn't matter, does your location matter so much?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Because it's the best location. And I think that's, that's, that's the easy answer. You know, I tell people, this is not a virtual background.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  That is the, that is my office. And for those who are listening who can't see it, I mean, it's a

• 10:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's pretty sweet.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Perfect. It's a pretty sweet picture of palm trees and a bay and, and, you know, and a blue sky. So we believe and we've always believed that if all things were equal, Miami wins. So that's part of it. I think the other part of it is, is, you know, I hear what you're saying about people sort of hating on the Bay Area. I get it. But I think there are some fundamental reasons why that's happening. And I think to ignore those reasons is going to continue to perpetuate this exodus.

• 10:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, let's hear it.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  They fall into two main categories. The first is taxation. You know, I had somebody tell me the other day that in some of these high tax cities and states, they're literally working the first six months for the government. And they don't really start making money until six month and the first day. Meaning they're paying more than half of all the money they earn in income taxes. So they're not, that money doesn't even ever go in their pocket. It's just going straight out the door. Um, and, and so that's one way to look at it. Uh, the other thing, uh, that people say is, you know, I've heard, I've heard big founders, uh, say things like, you know, if I would have just gotten a call from the mayor or the governor saying, hey, look, we know things are, are tough right now. Uh, we know we're closed. We know, uh, you know, crime is up. We know homelessness is up.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Um, we know our taxes are, are going up, but we really need you. We want you to stay. We appreciate you. We think you're doing a great job building companies, building wealth. Um, we think you're part of the solution. Um, if they would have taken that approach, I think a lot of people would have stayed, uh, because they would have felt a sense of civic responsibility. Uh, and they would have said, you know what? Maybe, maybe they're right. Maybe things will get better. Uh, and I, I just don't think that happened. On, on the contrary, I think what, I think, I think what happened was the opposite. I think you have people saying F, you know, Elon Musk. I think you have people saying, you know what I mean? Uh, you know, you had people, you know, Mark Zuckerberg who gave seventy five million dollars to name a hospital. You know, he's being, you know, criticized for that.

• 11:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, but okay, we could go on on this. I, I just want to get to the root of it though, which is that I think that first of all, I think you're right. I, I don't think it's any place for politicians to say, you know, F like one of the most important entrepreneurs in the state. Or I think the whole idea of, of taking Zuckerberg's name off the hospital was ridiculous. The tension that's happening in San Francisco is that politicians have seen the, the tech industry come in. And, uh, you know, gentrify, uh, you know, push real estate costs up and not really give back much to the community. And when they, you know, sort of, it's kind of funny when they do now they get criticized. And, and that's where an anti-tech sentiment has, has come up in San Francisco. Now, look, I mean, I'm, I've covered the industry. I've founded.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Can I jump in on that?

• 12:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  I, I fundamentally disagree with that.

• 12:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, let's, yeah, I'll tell you what you think. Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  And I'll tell you why. Gentrification is not a San Francisco issue. It's not a, a Los Angeles issue. It's not a New York issue. It's an American issue. Right? Gentrification was happening in Miami way before tech got here. Um, we grew my first year of mayor, eight and a half percent, my second year, ten and a half percent, and the year after that in COVID, six and a half percent. Prior to the how can I help tweet? So gentrification is real, right? It's real. It's a real force in America because there's a, there's a, there is a, um, a renaissance to urbanism. To blame that on an industry, to blame that on a company is insane. And it's ludicrous and counterproductive frankly. Uh, and, and I think that's where the big mistake lies. Um, when government oftentimes creates the kinds of policies that exacerbate gentrification.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  For example, you have cities that limit their, um, their, their ability to build. Right. They limit their ability, they limit their housing stock. Uh, what do you think is going to happen when you have no place to build? You have an infinite amount of capital chasing a finite good. Prices are going to go up. There is no, I mean, that's economics one O one. It's not the fault of a company. It's not the fault of a person. It's not the fault of an industry. It's the fault of government frankly. And I think what's happening is a lot of societal problems that are not being fixed by government. And are not being made better by government are being blamed on private industry as a scapegoat. And that's why people are fleeing those governments and those cities in droves and are coming to cities like Miami. We reduce tax, we reduce taxes to the second lowest rate since the nineteen sixties. We reduced crime last year by twenty five percent.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  The year before that, we had the lowest homicide rate since nineteen fifty four. Okay, while people defund their, their police, we increase funding to our police. We've had more police officers than we've ever had in our history. We have probably one of the lowest homeless rates for a major city in America. Uh, nine hundred and sixty two homeless in my city. I know exactly the number I have and I have a census of it on a regular basis. So I, I, I think, I think it's a big mistake and frankly, uh, until cities start and states start figuring out that what they're doing is hurting their citizens, uh, instead of blaming the, the, their citizens. Um, this is, this, this, this is going to continue and it's just going to benefit Miami. Listen, I'm fine with it. I'm fine with it. If they want to keep doing it, if they want to keep doing it, keep doing it.

• 14:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. Well, listen, Mr. Mayor, I think this is why people like you. Uh, because you know, I think that I was talking about, I was giving the context. This is why people are upset in San Francisco. And I think it's all too rare where we hear politicians talking about the fact that this is a problem and it's not just solved by some people not moving in, but by actual government policy that can solve. And hopefully this sets an example for people across the country to, to go in and, and jump on it. So I really have a few, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  No, I would say I agree with you. I think, I think this, I think the solution is, I think it's a shared responsibility. Right. I think, I think we're roughly the same age. I think, I think the challenge of our generation is income inequality. Right. And I don't think that's again, that's not a San Francisco problem. That's not a Los Angeles problem, or New York problem, or Miami problem. That's an everywhere problem. And the question is, how do you solve it? Right. And if the answer, if we had the answer to solve it, guess what? Everybody would do it. Right. And we would just scale it. It would be simple, right? Just like any, any other solution.

• 15:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  You don't think bringing in tech folks and, and you know, having low taxes is, is gonna, um, you know, further the income inequality divide. But so I want to hear what you think. Yeah, yeah.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Well, okay. So, so, so we have the problem, right? Let's think of this as an engineer, right? Let's think of this as a problem solution thing. So you have a problem. The problem is income inequality. The problem is poverty. Right. What is the first thing you have to do to cure poverty? Tell all the people that create high paying jobs, you gotta go? No, you have to, you have to tell those people, you gotta come. Because I need my, for my, for there to be upward mobility in my citizens, the first thing I have to do is create high paying jobs. That is the first fundamental thing that I have to do. The second thing I gotta do is I have to train the people in my city to occupy those jobs. And make sure that they have the best educational framework, that they have, you know, broadband access, that they have the digital tools that everyone has, that they have, you know, educational curriculum and coding and robotics and whatever they're gonna need to be competitive in that world.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  But, but to say, oh, the cure of income inequality is to tell everyone that creates high paying jobs that they have to leave.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  I don't even know what to say to that. Like, I just don't understand.

• 16:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  Neither or. It's, if you bring them in, you tax them appropriately. I mean, that's the other side of it. I'm not taking a position here. I'm saying.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. So, so, so, so on the other side is we grow government, which has been, you know, demonstrated over the history of humanity to be incredibly inefficient at doing just about everything. You know, and, and I think the reason why it's so clear to me, and I'm sorry to getting, I'm getting worked up because.

• 17:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  No, this is.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Awesome debate.

• 17:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  The reason why, the reason why I get worked up is because my parents came from a country. Uh, where they took away private property from everybody, where they took away the right uh, of uh, you know, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, where they summarily executed political prisoners and they and they arrest people who uh, speak ill of government um, and and and it was so became very evident to me that growing government, that that tax policy, if you will, is you don't tax your way out of problems. Um, you know, you you innovate your way out of problems, you know, you create public-private partnerships. Affordable housing is a great example. We just did ten million dollars of affordable housing, where we got a twenty to one leverage rate with the private sector. We put in a dollar and

• 18:01Speaker 01

  we got nineteen dollars from the public, from the private sector. So we created seven hundred and twenty-two units of affordable housing um, in our community with ten million dollars. Um, you you can't do that if government, if you go and and you make it a government project, first of all, it's gonna look terrible. Second of all, you're never gonna maintain it the way that it should be maintained. And third of all, you're never, you're not gonna get the leverage rate. So you're gonna spend ten million dollars and you're gonna get seventy units as opposed to spending ten million dollars and getting seven hundred units. It's like simple mathematics.

• 18:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, no, I I I, look, I I see your point. This is a long debate that we could have, but I know your team's gonna cut me off at fifteen minutes. So I do hope that we could do it again. One thing I'll say is, um, I used to work in economic development uh, in New York City, and I saw firsthand how important it was for the leaders in the city to talk about how important the tech industry was, because ultimately that's where a lot of the growth is gonna come from. And I know people give you shit about, you know, how how much you're on Twitter, and man, I'd love to see your usage statistics, but I I know it's gonna make a meaningful impact.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what they are.

• 19:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  To Miami. Yeah.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what they are. We we did, um, in December, I tweeted over eight hundred times. Um, I got twenty-seven million impressions, all organic. Um, you know, and and the how can I help tweet got like two point four million. The other one where they said, but with your feet got like one point seven. When I put up the Satoshi White Paper, it got three million um, impressions. So I I I think I have a clear runway to to talk about these things. And frankly, um, I I welcome the debate. I think it's a it's a healthy, important debate, because like I said, it is the challenge of our generation. But I do think that a lot of the cities are taking the wrong approach, and I think that wrong approach is not only not helping their citizens, I think it's actually hurting their citizens.

• 19:44Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, well, I think, look, the most important thing is to have a debate. And now that we have cities like Miami and cities like Austin, and of course, New York and Boston, which I've been there, that are challenging the Bay Area, challenging California for tech supremacy, we're going to start talking about these issues. And then cities will make a decision in terms of the way that they want to handle this stuff. So it's good to see it out there. It's nice to be here talking with you about it, and I wish you the best of luck.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  And I'm excited to talk to you about it. I'm really thankful, actually, that you talk about it in this way because, you know, frankly, I do a lot of interviews. And it's good when somebody has a robust debate and says, hey, you know what? Let's look at the other side. Let's challenge each other to think about this more profoundly. I actually really appreciate it because frankly, oftentimes, the interviews are all sort of honky-dory and everything is wonderful. No, things are not all wonderful. You know, we have work to do. There's a lot of challenges. And the decisions that we make today are going to define how we are tomorrow. So I'm just really grateful, actually, that you gave me the opportunity to have this robust debate with you, and I'd be happy to do it again in the future.

• 20:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, I'm grateful too, and appreciate you responding to my DM. It starts with that. And it's not Elon Musk, but this is how good conversations begin. And I am grateful too, so hopefully we do it again.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Everybody's Elon Musk to me.

• 20:59Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's why you're a good politician. All right, Mr. Mayor, wishing you the best of luck. All right, take care.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Dito, dito.

• 21:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, that was fun. I did not expect him to start quoting the Twitter stats, but I am glad he did. And there it is, the full-throated pitch for Miami. I really enjoyed the debate. Thank you, Mayor Suarez. Next, we move to Madison, Wisconsin, where Mayor Satya Rhodes Conway will speak with us about why her city is booming and how the move to remote work may help mid-sized cities especially, not the big names you hear in the news. We'll also get to why cities want tech in the first place. I found this interview fascinating and fun. Mayor Rhodes Conway even entertained some of your questions from Twitter, so thank you for those. Before our conversation, a word from our sponsor, Media Ocean. The Big Technology Podcast is sponsored by Media Ocean. Looking for a job in big tech? You might want to take a look at Media Ocean.

• 21:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  They were just named by Ad Age as the number one place to work in advertising technology. Go to medi ocean.com slash big tech to learn more about the company and check out their careers hub. Media Ocean is building the mission critical platform for omni-channel advertising. If that sounds cool, or if you just want to find out what these buzzwords mean, hit up media ocean.com slash big tech and browse their job listings. And big thanks to Media Ocean for supporting the big technology podcast. And now my conversation with Mayor Rhodes Conway. Mayor Rhodes Conway, welcome to the show.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

• 22:25Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's great to have you. There's a reason we want to talk about Madison because I did a story based off of LinkedIn data, which we talked about at the top. And it looked at the changes in tech worker migration city by city. And people expected that it might be Miami. We spoke to Mayor Francis Suarez just before, or as people thought it might be Austin. It turns out the city with the biggest increase in tech worker migration is Madison. Last year, there were 1.02 tech workers moving into Madison for everyone moving out. This year, it is 1.77. That's the biggest jump, a 74% increase in inflow

• 23:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  outflow ratio. Congratulations. You leave everybody else behind in the dust. So my question for you is, now that we're talking about it, how surprised are you that you're hearing this and seeing it? Or is this something that you've known all along?

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Well, you know, what can I say? Madison's a great place to live. No, I think it's, it's very interesting. And we have certainly seen the pattern here in Madison. And, you know, just for example, our average age of the population is going down. And I think that is in large part due to the folks that we see moving here for work and particularly for tech related work. And so we see it there. We see it in our housing market, frankly. And, you know, we definitely feel the impact here in Madison. And mostly that's positive.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Not 100%. But I think it is, it's really interesting. And I, I actually think that going in You know, sort of post pandemic, as we come out of COVID and more and more people are realizing they could live wherever they wanted and work remotely, that we are going to see even more of that migration here to Madison.

• 24:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, so let's talk quickly about the fundamentals inside Madison and then we can go a little bit more into the pandemic. So I was perusing Core, which is a popular question answer site in the tech world. And this was, you know, I was surprised to see, and maybe I should have been paying more attention, but surprised to see that even as far as back as, you know, almost a decade ago, in 2013, people were talking about Madison's tech industry as up and coming. Here's what somebody said in 2013. Madison in specific and Wisconsin in general actually has a pretty decent rep for startup culture, especially in the past few years. Between the UW turning out a healthy handful of intelligent, educated people, a number of high tech companies in the area bringing smart people into town,

• 25:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  and a strong community slash network of supporting enthusiastic entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, Madison's become a small hotbed in the tech and startup scenes. So you've been in Madison, you've worked with the university, you've worked on the city council, you've been there for a couple of decades. How did this happen? Was it intentional or did it just sort of happen incidentally?

• 25:28Speaker 02

  You know, I think it's a mix. You know, certainly we see a lot of strength coming out of UW. Just for example, we have a great program on game design, which has meant that we have a really strong sector in game design here in Madison. And most people have no idea that that's true. Right? I happen to know because my brother is a game designer. But, you know, and so, you know, he's sort of kept me looped in that, yeah, Madison's a pretty hit place to be from that perspective. But I think it's been a little bit under the radar. And I will say that in the industry, you know, all of what you just read is true.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Right? There is these strengths. There are some anchors. Obviously, Epic has been an anchor in the med tech space and all of the spin off that comes from that.

• 26:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  They do electronic medical records.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Yep, exactly. But I would also point out that, you know, American Family has really invested in innovation here. And I think is doing a lot of interesting sort of

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Um, ecosystem building work. Um, I think that, you know, we've got, we've got Google, we've got Zendex, we've got Fetch here, we've got Ionic, we've got Purblue, um, you know, Exact also in the medical technology space. Um, it, so there's, there's a lot going on here in Madison and one of the, the things that, that strikes me looking in, into the industry from the outside is that there is a lot of camaraderie and collaboration. Um, and that there is a lot of desire to, to build that ecosystem and have that community, which I think then spurs, you know, additional startups, additional people wanting to be part of that. Um, and to, to move here to be part of it.

• 27:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, and I want to build on that. Um, so I'm going to ask about how the pandemic has changed everything, but it does seem that there's some interesting things happen where, um, you know, people can now work from anywhere, but they still want to have some semblance of a tech community in the cities they move to. So it's not like somebody, you know, well, there are going to be people that do this, but like, you know, get an airstream and move into the middle of the desert and code all day. That will happen.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  But it does seem like communities like Madison are really well positioned to have, you know, folks who don't need to be in San Francisco of, you know, San Francisco or New York to come. They have, what I imagine, cost of living is better, you know, community might be, I don't know, even a little friendlier. Seems like that's the case.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Could be.

• 28:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  And, uh, and, um, and then the opportunity to, to get together with like-minded people in a physical, and, and, you know, in the physical world when that becomes accessible. So do you think that's how the pandemic and this sort of realization that we can now do remote work ends up benefiting Madison?

• 28:22Speaker 02

  I think so. Uh, I think that, that we will see, um,

• 28:28Speaker 02

  You know, that movement, we have a really high quality of life. I mean, the caveat always here is that we're an extremely good place for white people to live. And we're not an extremely good place for particularly African Americans to live. So, you know, we are really wrestling with that gap in opportunity. And that's something that we, as a city, we as a community, take very seriously and are wrestling with. But we do have, you know, all of the markers of really high quality of life. We've got beautiful lakes, we've got incredible park system. And, you know, we've got a, you know, great small business community.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  And lots of microbrew and, you know, local distilleries. And, you know, anyway, local chocolate, take your pick, whatever you want.

• 29:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  So there is a lot of a really good quality of life here, and I think that does attract people. And I think, you know, that some of the downside is, you know, while we are still a more affordable place to live than many larger coastal cities. And our housing market is incredibly tight. And we, as a city, have really pushed to increase our supply of housing to sort of meet the influx of people that we see.

• 29:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, and also, I mean, I watched your campaign videos when you campaigned for mayor in 2019. You campaigned on helping to close the gap in opportunity among races. You campaigned to install more affordable housing. So though, no doubt, there are those challenges. The city did elect you to, you know, help try to fix them. So I think that says something about Madison. Now, on the tech question specifically, do you, you know, do you get both, you know, excited and kind of hesitant with the fact that there's going to be or there is an influx in your city? Because on one hand, it's probably good for the local economy. On the other hand, I think you're kind of hitting at the fact that, you know, the housing market is tight.

• 30:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  Uh, I live in San Francisco. Here's what happens here. The, you know, the tech companies you pay there. Look, they're, they're, I have nothing against them. They're, they're a, an engine of economic growth. Probably unlike the country's ever seen, they pay high salaries and then, but, but the downside is people do get priced out of neighborhoods. So, so do you have conflicted feelings in terms of the tech boom going on in your city and how do you plan to manage that?

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, I, I see it as a challenge, right? It's, it is, um, it, it's a plus. It's a, it's an economic driver for us. And, and you know, we want people to, to understand how great Madison is and to, uh, wanna live here and wanna do business here. But, but it is a challenge for us, right? The challenge is to make sure that we are not, um, designing our city just for people who have moved here in the last, you know, year or five years or whatever, but rather designing our city to benefit everybody, uh, including the folks who have been here for their whole lives, right? It's also a challenge to make sure that our housing market, um, you know,

• 31:45Speaker 02

  contains the appropriate levels of affordability for everybody. And, you know, regardless of, of where they might be working and, and it's a challenge to make sure that we are investing in all of our neighborhoods. And, but I, I think that's a challenge that we're up for. And, and, you know, uh, again, you, you pointed out, it's, it's what I ran for. Uh, when I was running for mayor, it's what I ran on and, and it is, um, you know, a high priority for us as a city to make sure that we stay focused on certainly welcoming more people in, uh, but also making sure that we're taking care of everybody.

• 32:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. And so I also wanna know, like, um, in terms of the overall mix of your economy. Now I'm just gonna, you know, take some guesses and you can, you know, bring me back to reality because you know this better than I do.

• 32:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  I, I imagine the main industry in Wisconsin is the University of Wisconsin, uh, University of Wisconsin-Madison. So how important can tech be in the mix or is tech in the mix? Like, and how much do you, how much do you want it to be? Like, is it like now, like a small percentage, but it's fun to talk about or is it a driver of Madison's economy and? Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  I I think you'd actually be surprised um at how diverse our economy is. So certainly, you know, obviously, we're the got state government, we've got county government, we've got city government, right? So we're we're heavy in the government sector. We do have the flagship UW campus here, obviously, and but we also have a real strength in healthcare. And so we have, you know, very strong health systems, and that's a big piece in our economy. Similarly, we have a lot of med tech companies, and it's a growing piece of our economy here. And, you know, obviously, food and food systems is a part of everybody's economy, but I think it's particularly special in the Midwest and in Madison, and given our proximity to some really excellent agricultural

• 33:37Speaker 02

  land. And so the the local food movement is strong, and our farm-to-table movement is really important here. And that is, you know, a significant piece of our economy as well. And so we're a little more diverse than I think people might think when they just think of us as a university town. And, you know, we we do have the eighth largest concentration of digital services jobs in the US. And and so, you know, I think when you ask, is is tech already an important part of our economy? Yes, it is. And I think it's growing.

• 34:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  People out here, and by out here, I mean Silicon Valley, have said software is going to eat the world. But it sounds like what you're saying is that software and technology are going to be an important part of your mix. There are other industries out there, but you're still going to do whatever you can to welcome the software companies, recruit the software companies, as long as they don't exacerbate your challenges. Is that is that the right read?

• 34:40Speaker 02

  I think that, I mean, I don't know how things happen in Silicon Valley, but I think there's a little bit of a skew.

• 34:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  I'm still trying to learn, so.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  View of the world there. But, you know, what's important for cities is to have diverse economies, right? You we you can't depend on one industry alone.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Right, so it's it's important for Madison to have a diversity. And, you know, and to be strong in multiple sectors. And, and that's, that's what I'm interested in, right? And I'm, I'm interested in that. I'm interested in doing what we can to, to grow and diversify the sectors that we've got and to localize their supply chains. And so that we're keeping more of our economic activity here in Madison. And, and I, you know, I think that there's a lot of opportunity to do that. And, you know, but I, for me, the key really is the diversity. And so, you know, with, with tech in particular, being a growing sector for us, that's great because it helps us diversify.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  And, but I, I never want to be in a position where that's the only thing we've got going.

• 35:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right, and how does tech help? Like, does it just mean there's more opportunities for people in, in Madison to get jobs? Or like, does, do you view the money trickling down? Like, what is, when you think about the benefit outside of having another industry that people can go to? What are some concrete benefits of having tech in your city? Like, why would you want it? That's the question I wrote down earlier. Do you even want tech?

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Certainly, you know, it, it's useful in the sense of you're bringing people into town and they're spending money, right? Like, that's, that's great.

• 36:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  That's part of what makes the economy go. But, um, I, one of the things that I think is really interesting is the, um, is the overlap, right? So we, Madison's been strong in healthcare for decades. Right? And now we're increasingly strong in medical technology. And which probably wouldn't have happened if we weren't strong in healthcare to begin with, right? But, but is an opportunity for a, a, a strength in technology related to one of our existing, um, you know, economic powerhouses. So that's interesting to me. So what are the overlaps? Right? What are the, the places where new things emerge? And because of those overlaps?

• 37:00Speaker 02

  And, um, you know, again, just coming back to some of the work that American Family has done, you know, they've, they have an innovation center in, in, they call it the Spark Building, um, right in downtown Madison. And so, you know, where are the places that we can really draw on? On that expertise and and and get really innovative and solve new problems and and you know, have people who think in different ways, rubbing shoulders with each other and and coming up with with new solutions and new business models and that are going to benefit our community.

• 37:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Fascinating. So there can be a spillover effect to other industries that do rely on tech. So in some ways, it is eating the world, but in some ways it's not. And then and then the pandemic has helped bring the idea that there could be more people inside Madison. That's interesting. So the I guess like I was gonna I had a broad question for the end. I'm just gonna ask it now. I'm curious what you think the future of tech is in US cities. Is it concentrated? Is it more dispersed?

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Well, you know, how I would have answered that 12 months ago, I think is is perhaps different than how I would answer it now. I think that everything is going to be more dispersed. Right? I think that that one of the things that the pandemic has taught us is that and that there is a lot of room for people to work remotely. And and and I think the the question is how remotely, right? Is this are a lot of people going to have jobs where they are they live in one state and their job is multiple states away from them? I don't know about that. Right? But are but are people going to have and jobs

• 38:40Speaker 02

  where they live in a nice midsize Midwestern city and you know, and then they are, you know, not going into the office every day? That I think is probably going to happen. Right? Or or are they? Anyway, you get my point. I think that that that a lot more is possible now because we have and we've discovered telework as an option.

• 39:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, and yeah, and it plays right into into what you're doing. Um, we're just about out of time, but I'm going to ask you some questions I got for you from Twitter and Lord help me because I don't even know what I'm asking you, but I think that these will be fun and I'm just going to go for it. And if I say something politically incorrect, then I'll just remove it from the recording. Okay, fish fry or fish boil?

• 39:37Speaker 02

  I'm a vegetarian.

• 39:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  So no fish.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 39:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  I have no idea what this means. New glarus or sprecker?

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm sorry, but new glarus for sure.

• 39:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, are those bearded gardens?

• 39:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, cool. Um, the hell is up with bubbler? What's bubbler?

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Oh, so our library has this fantastic sort of innovation maker space called the bubbler. And I assume that's what they're referring to. I don't know.

• 40:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  I think so, yeah.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's it's really awesome. It brings together artists and makers and innovators and gives people a chance to really indulge their creativity and learn something at the same time. Not a lot going on since COVID, but really exciting stuff in the past and hopefully again in the future.

• 40:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, okay, great. There was somebody who also asked about something that, oh, here, we have, is the silver dollar really closed?

• 40:36Speaker 02

  Uh, yes, but yes.

• 40:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  What's that?

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Sorry, it's a bar.

• 40:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, I'm sorry, folks, silver dollar, that's rough. Uh, let's see, and do we have one more? Oh, yeah, what can be done to get cannabis legalized statewide?

• 40:52Speaker 02

  Well, as a matter of fact, the governor just proposed that.

• 40:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  And for the record, I'm fully supportive.

• 41:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, well, what a way to end it. We'll see what happens. That'll really be competitive advantage for you guys in terms of all the techies used to legalize weed here in California. Thank you, Mayor Satya Rhodes Conway. It's been great having you and wishing you the best of luck.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Thank you. It's a pleasure. Take care.

• 41:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, have a good one.

• 41:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, there we go. We're breaking news. Ask tech questions, get answers on weed. It sort of reminds me of home back here in San Francisco. Okay, so for our final conversation, let's hear from Mayor Steve Adler of Austin. It's worth listening to this one with a careful ear. You'll hear how Mayor Adler speaks somewhat carefully and walks a tightrope about tech's impact on Austin. He's a real contrast in approach from Mayor Suarez. And look, at a certain point, I had to ask him if it would even be politically feasible to fully embrace the tech industry. I like his approach. Let Austin be Austin and everything else comes after that. He also got directly into the benefit he sees in tech coming from Austin. So listen out for that. And now here's Mayor Adler.

• 42:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Mayor Adler, welcome to the show.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  Good to be with you. Thanks for the invite.

• 42:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Of course. Yeah, it's great to have you on. I know we're catching you right before you go into a COVID briefing with the city. So I appreciate you making the time.

• 42:20Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 42:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  So I'd like to start by zooming out. We're having this conversation today because people have been talking about how COVID has supposedly ended the way that people work and the way that the composition of where companies go in the United States exists currently. So I do think that there's a case to be made that everything goes back to normal once this ends. And, you know, we return to the typical power centers in San Francisco and New York and that people are temporarily camped out in other cities and they'll resume as things were afterwards. So why do you think that's wrong?

• 42:59Speaker 03

  Well, I think for some people, that's going to be right. But for others, it won't be. And I think part of it is exposure. You don't know what you're not doing, you're seeing, you're feeling, or experiencing until you do. I think Austin, for example, is that kind of place. It's, I think, qualitatively different than a lot of other places. And I think it's in so many different ways. And I think that there are people that

• 43:34Speaker 03

  Get a get a taste for something different. Uh, and then and then like what that feels like. Uh, I think that there are a lot of experiences that people have seen with with the ability to be able to be productive in different ways. That's going to have continued attraction. Uh, but I also still believe that the uh, uh, attraction for urban centers. Uh, it's going to be something that remains. I think there's a in energy. Uh, and something that is missing socially when you're not around a lot of people.

• 44:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. And you say Austin is different in a number of ways. Do you want to list maybe two or three?

• 44:15Speaker 03

  I think the the the most significant way that that Austin is different is we have. Um. It's a real accepting city. We have it's a it's a place where it's okay for people to be different. You know, the catch rates of the city is.

• 44:31Alex Kantrowitz?

  Keep Austin weird.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  What does that mean? Um, to me, what that means is that uh, you can try things and and act and and be outside of the box. I think that there's a higher tolerance for taking risks in Austin than any other city that I've ever been in. Uh, when you do something and you fail, it doesn't get punished in Austin the same way it does in in most other places. And that encourages people to try things, which I think leads to greater in innovation. Which is why I think there's more startups per capita in the city than than just about any other place that I'm aware of. Uh, because there's a there's a cultural value in.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  In supporting and encouraging and allowing people to try things that are outside of the box, which makes this a. A really creative and entrepreneurial and socially accepting city.

• 45:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  Austin had kind of been on a roll and still is before all this happened before COVID. And the data that I've seen has actually showed that tech worker migration to Austin has slowed down a bit. So, you know, people have talked about, it's still, it's still, it's still coming, but it's slowed down. So, has this been less of a boon to Austin this period of time? Been less of a boon to Austin than a lot of people seem to have in their minds? In terms of tech worker migration and tech company migration? We see the big headlines with Oracle, but what's going on on the ground?

• 46:02Speaker 03

  You know, I'm not sure that I, that I, that I have the information or data to give you a holistic picture. My sense is, is that there is a migration and a movement and an energy in the city. Because I think that there's just growing opportunities here. When I talk to people and I, my data is all anecdotal. And so with that understanding, when I talk to leaders in other cities, my sense is, is that Austin is, is, is doing well. Because a lot of, it's a cultural issue. And I think that this is an easy city to be in. For many people in other cities, this is an inexpensive place to be. Unless, of course, you've grown up here.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  So if there is a slowing down of migration into this city, it's not something that I've seen.

• 46:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. And so this is definitely important stuff. It seems like every mayor wants their city to be a tech hub. So just give me an idea of what the stakes are. Like, does tech, is tech going to be the main driver for cities in the US in terms of economic growth? Is it part of the mix? Where's going to, the growth going to come from elsewhere?

• 47:18Speaker 03

  I don't think that Austin right now is driving to be a tech city because tech cities are the future of cities, or that's the way to go. I, I, I don't think that the desire to be tech drives. I think there's a, there's a cultural value in this city that relates to music as much as it does to tech. And that's what this city is and who we are in this city. And I think that that's what drives the, the.

• 47:51Speaker 03

  That's what drives the city. And if it translates into attracting tech and being a good place for tech to be, which I think it is and it does, then that happens, but it's almost incidental to the to the culture. I think that the the large companies come here because the people they want to have work for them want to live in this city. And I think then that what follows is then the big companies here are the tech companies here. But what drove it was the quality of life questions that a lot of people, apparently in in that industry, want to be around. And I think that goes back to what we started with, where this is a city that is open to

• 48:35Speaker 03

  innovation in a way that's not forced. There's a a natural drive to that because of the risk tolerance profile.

• 48:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's it's fascinating to hear you talk about the tech migration to Austin as incidental because I think the view from the outside is a lot of people see Austin out there. You know, this is the perception that Austin is out there recruiting tech companies to come. And I was just speaking with a former resident of your city earlier today, and this person mentioned that Austin has, you know, had a years years long campaign far beyond far before COVID to recruit tech companies in. So how do those two things square? Like, is the do you have like an economic development group that's going out to tech companies and trying to get them to move from San Francisco? Or is it just you're only taking inbound leads?

• 49:28Speaker 03

  I think most of it is inbound leads. You know, I think it was different 25, 30 years ago, when you had the the first consortiums leaving, trying to to pick up a lot of the early tech manufacturing that existed overseas.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  And I think that, again, at that point, it was people trying to tie the natural abilities and the natural culture that existed in the city and tie it to an industry where it seemed like there was a match. And fortuitous for this city, the match happened to be in industries that were focused on idea generation and creativity and innovation and entrepreneurship and then intersection with art and creativity. It just turned out to be a good play or a good bet. I mean, that's who we are. So, most of what's happening in this city is inbound leads.

• 50:34Speaker 03

  That is not to say that we also don't recruit in the city because it's obviously a strength that exists. But, you know, when you had cities all over the country competing for Amazon headquarters, Austin, I think, was involved in that in a very different way than most other cities.

• 50:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  I liked your pitch. It wasn't crawling to Amazon. It was more like, this is what we got.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  That's what we got, and these are our...

• 51:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. No, it's the way that most elected should have handled it.

• 51:07Speaker 03

  We have challenges here. We're looking for people that want to be neighbors and get involved in both what's working and what's not working.

• 51:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, and I want to talk about those challenges. One last question on the economy. I mean, you're the mayor. You look at the numbers. So, what, I mean, and I know tech has... It's interesting to hear about the incidental move, but like, going directly at the numbers, like, when you, how important... When you look at your mix of industries in your city, how important is tech, you know, from an economic standpoint?

• 51:40Speaker 03

  Tech is real important, and tech is obviously really broad. You know, we're really lucky in this city to have a lot of jobs that pay a lot. The real need in my city right now is for middle-skill jobs, for jobs that people can do that don't require a four-year degree. So, a two-year degree or a certification.

• 52:05Speaker 03

  To a rapidly growing degree, a lot of those jobs are tech jobs. And so having a company that would come in like Tesla is important for our city. It's clean manufacturing and it drives that middle skill job. But in an area that we lean into.

• 52:29Speaker 03

  So tech is obviously important and it's driving a lot of things that are wonderful in our city. But our challenges won't be cured by having eight more really big tech companies coming in with really well-paying jobs.

• 52:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, that's interesting and I think that's kind of where you differ from the mayor of Miami, who's just like, bring it all, bring all the tech companies and, you know, keep the taxes low and everything, you know, might work itself out. But it seems to me that like you're, and obviously the government needs to make policies to try to decrease income inequalities. But let's talk about the challenges because, you know, I think about what you talk about with, keep Austin weird and of course it's hospitable and encourages people to take chances and not be cookie cutter. But I think there's another side to it, from what I understand, which is people say it. And say like the folks that are moving in from like the tech industry aren't keeping it weird. And might be a little bit more buttoned up and less experimental, more interested in money perhaps.

• 53:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  And so, you know, is, I guess like my question is, are the two also, you know, the two might drive together, but are the two also in conflict? What do you think about that?

• 53:40Speaker 03

  I don't know. I think it's, I think it's more complicated and more nuanced than that.

• 53:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  Great. Let's hear it.

• 53:47Speaker 03

  You know, I'm not sure that that money is, I mean, money was a driver back when I got here in the late seventies.

• 53:53Speaker 03

  And I also know that I got here in seventy eight. And everybody who got here with me in seventy eight, absolutely sure that the people who got here in seventy nine are the ones that started screwing things up for the city. But the people who got here three years ago are sure that the ones who got here last year are the ones that started screwing it up. You know, my measure on that is is Austin, when I got here, was attractive to me and a compelling place because art was being created everywhere, everywhere. And I look at some other cities that have gone through kind of progress and there are cities that don't create art as much as they consume art.

• 54:36Speaker 03

  And I think that there's a real turn when that happens to a city. Austin is still a city that creates art everywhere. And and and the key for us in terms of trying to drive policy is how do we how do we maintain that? So, yes, we have an economy that's up right now and and it's getting more and more expensive to to live here. I'm not sure that it's in, you know, the search of the dollars is the is the motivating thing is as much as affordability impacts that that creative mix that we can't afford to lose. So we can't afford to lose the the fabric of people that exist in the city so that

• 55:21Speaker 03

  we continue to be a city that creates art.

• 55:25Alex Kantrowitz?

  How do you do it? I mean, you are gonna, yeah, what what's, yeah.

• 55:29Speaker 03

  It's hard, you know, but it but it takes a community that is that is really devoted to it and is willing to to sacrifice for it. We we passed, you know, the the largest affordable housing bond that the cities ever passed, fourfold larger than anything that we've ever done before. In the middle of the pandemic, the community agreed to do what it took to establish a a mass public transit system that was centered on on on equity. And a big component of the transit program was not for stock or capital infrastructure.

• 56:11Speaker 03

  It was for the anti-displacement strategies associated with that. So I think it's just been really focused, that the conversations about equity in the city go beyond just wanting to be able to talk about equity, but people realize that if we're not successful in the equity issues, it's existential for us. So there's a lot of work, which is why we're not only in the middle of the the policing.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  Pre-Imagination conversation that's going on in some other cities. But I really think we're actually progressing through it in ways that other cities are having difficulty doing in part again because we realize that it's existential to who we are. If we don't nail this, if we don't do this right, then the city will change. And people want us to preserve the magic of this place.

• 57:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, and it is a magical city. I'm a big fan. So I'm just gonna try to wrap it up. So it's very interesting to hear your perspective on this, that tech surge in Austin has been something that's gonna happen incidentally, that they're an important part of the economy, and that they're also, well, I wouldn't even say that you've said that they're core of the challenges, but I wonder if there is a compromise between that and the challenges you talk about in terms of having a place where artists are able to live in terms of affordable housing and, you know, neighborhoods like your east side are able to, you know, maintain their character?

• 57:50Speaker 03

  I believe that there's an intersection of those things. I think that one could destroy the other, but at the same time, I also think that the tech movement to our city is bringing real significant energy and certainly a level of resources that wouldn't exist here otherwise. And you can either take that energy and those resources and use it to meet those challenges, or you can use those resources to exacerbate the challenges. And that's really the place this city is right now. And, you know, in five or 10 years, we'll know whether or not we were able to steer

• 58:34Speaker 03

  those things in the direction we need to be. But one of the things that I really like about this city is that, you know, people self-select to be here. I mean, there are other wonderful cities. Miami's a wonderful city. But I also think that the people that feel really comfortable and really like Miami just really wouldn't like it here that much.

• 58:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  They wouldn't like Austin.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  And vice versa. So there's a certain kind of person that self-selects to be here. And I think part of that nature is the primacy of recognizing that.

• 59:06Speaker 03

  We each have to invest in and help protect the magic that attracted us here. And I think if we can all stay true to that, then we can actually make this work.

• 59:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, you know, it's interesting to hear you speak about it, that tech has an important place in Austin. That it can be part of the solution and that it's welcome in your city.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  Very much.

• 59:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  And I look at that and I, yeah, go ahead.

• 59:36Speaker 03

  No, no, very much. In fact, and I think that it has to be that way. And I think that's the reason why, because it's seen not as an end in and of itself, but as providing an ability and a tool to help us continue what we have. You know, I can remember really well, arriving as a law student, up on the drag, near the law school. Everybody upset about this new bar that had gone into this favorite location. The old bar had left and everybody was really pissed at this new bar that was coming in and the change that it represented and the fact that Austin was dying. And now here, forty five years later, that bar is endangered.

• 1:00:17Speaker 03

  And the city can't even imagine what it would be like if we somehow or another can't preserve and keep that bar. And it's true, and we need to try to keep that. But I'm okay with this city evolving and changing and growing, so long as it continues to preserve what it is that's special.

• 1:00:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. And you see a good, positive post pandemic future as far as tech work in the city.

• 1:00:43Speaker 03

  I think so. And it's been a really positive influence in so many ways thus far. And I think that the tech leadership is beginning to get more and more involved civically and more and more invested in. The community, and I think that's a really good sign.

• 1:01:04Alex Kantrowitz?

  I, I know we're a bit over time, but I gotta ask you one more question.

• 1:01:06Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:01:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Do you need to, um, do you have to tiptoe around the way that you speak about like the tech industry's impact? Because I'm sure a lot of, uh, the people, a lot of the residents of your city, you know, will sometimes associate it with, you know, the rise in real estate costs or some of the other challenges that your city's seeing. So do you like have a, like politically, do you have like a challenge to, um, you know, you need to stop short of fully embracing them coming in or, or am I reading that wrong?

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  No, I think, I think you're reading the politics right. Uh, I don't feel the need to, to tiptoe around it because this is how I came into the office and how I've talked about it has been consistent since I, since I got here. Uh, but you were right. I mean, there is that element of the city that, that feels that in order to be able to preserve what it is, it's magical about this, things can't change. Uh, and, and to that group, uh, the, the, the, the, the no new ways or different ways will be more threatening because it presents a kind of an unknown. So that politics exists in this city as it does in, in, in other cities. Um,

• 1:02:15Speaker 03

  but, but not to the degree that, that I think that it, it silences the, the voices of, of progress. Um, you know, my message has always been looking forward and moving forward. Um, and, and that I think is the winning strategy for the city. But then I think that forward movement and forward looking has been what the city has had for the five decades I've been here.

• 1:02:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. As we wrap up, Oracle's coming to Austin's going to be headquartered in your city. Larry Ellison is moving to Lanai. Are you upset that he's going to Hawaii and not coming to live with you guys?

• 1:02:57Speaker 03

  Hey, you know, Lanai, that's a nice place. It'd be hard to criticize anybody for, for heading to Lanai. I'm hoping that he visits here a lot. Uh, cause you know, with the company here, I think that, you know, they're, they, they need to be also invested in what's, what's good and, and what our challenges are too. And I trust that they will be.

• 1:03:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I've spent time with him. He's a fascinating guy. I'm sure you'll have plenty of time to hang out together. And man, would I like to be a fly on the wall for that. Thank you, Mayor Adler. It's great to see you.

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  Take care.

• 1:03:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  Take care. I appreciate you joining us.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Bye bye.

• 1:03:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  And that will do it for us here on the Big Technology Podcast. Look, I found these series of conversations to really paint a picture of what we can expect from tech in the United States moving forward. Cities, big and small, see opportunity to take the crown from Silicon Valley, and it seems like they have a real chance to build on their momentum. And each will take their own path, some more aggressively like Mayor Suarez, and some will do what they can to attract the industry, quote unquote, incidentally, like Mayor Adler. And look, my eyes are now open to the potential for small and midsize cities like Madison to make a real impact here. I came away impressed with all three mayors, and I do thank them for their time. If this is your first visit to Big Technology Podcast, you've reached all the way to the end. And so I think we have something here.

• 1:04:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  We have a bond. Please hit subscribe, and we'll get you new interviews with tech insiders and outside agitators, and maybe some more elected officials, actually probably some more elected officials, every Wednesday. If you've been listening for a while, please give us a rating. Those help a lot. Thanks, as always, to Nate Guatney for editing this beast of an episode, and for Red Circle, who hosts and sells ads on this podcast. We will see you next Wednesday for another episode of Big Technology Podcast. Until then, take care.

• 1:05:00Speaker 04

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