Jason Wilson, best-selling author & Martial Arts Master, speaks on men hiding behind a mask, healing trauma, redefining masculinity, discipline as a tool, Mental Health, Martial Arts, emotional freedom, family values and why vulnerability is real power

“Men put a mask to hide what appears to be weak to the world.”-Jason Wilson On this powerful episode of The Pivot Podcast, the guys sit down with bestselling author, martial arts master, mentor, and transformational leader Jason Wilson for a raw and inspiring conversation about manhood, healing, and emotional strength. Known for his groundbreaking work helping boys and men navigate trauma, masculinity, and mental health, Jason opens up about the life experiences that shaped his mission and the impact of his Detroit-based youth development program. From the discipline of martial arts to the vulnerability required for true healing, Jason shares how he’s helping redefine what strength looks like for men today. The conversation dives into his bestselling books, his mentorship philosophy, the emotional struggles many men silently carry, and why healing—not hiding—is the path to becoming whole. With honesty, wisdom, and hard-earned perspective, Jason challenges outdated ideas of masculinity and offers a blueprint for resilience, accountability, and emotional freedom. This one hits deep and truly instrumental on many levels, especially with family values—this is a conversation every man, parent, coach, and leader needs to hear. Pivot Family...comment, like, hit the subscribe button, we enjoy hearing and learning from you- the good and the bad, we want to know! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:30Ryan Clark?

  As we close out Mental Health Awareness Month, we wanted to have a conversation that went deeper than social media captions. Today, we sit down with Jason Wilson. He's made it his life's mission to help young boys and men confront the pain they were taught to suppress. Jason founded the Cave of Adulum Transformational Training Academy. It's an organization that helps mentor young men through discipline, emotional intelligence, accountability, and healing. Many of you have seen the powerful viral clips. But behind those clips is a man whose message was built through struggle, loss, reflection, and transformation. We talked about the death of his mother and the grief that reshaped his life. We discussed trauma, emotional suppression, and how unresolved pain can spill into relationships,

• 1:15Ryan Clark?

  anger, or even domestic violence. But instead of avoiding accountability, he leans into it, speaking openly about his growth, about ownership, and the difficult work required to become a better man. We also unpack something our culture constantly confuses: masculinity versus true manhood, and even how that saved his son's life. There's also a deeply personal moment for Jason and I, where he apologizes. It was rooted in reflection and humility and grace. And honestly, it became one of the clearest examples of what healthy manhood can actually look like in real time. This episode is emotional, at some points uncomfortable, but it's honest.

• 1:56Ryan Clark?

  And these are the conversations that we need more of, especially at the end of Mental Health Awareness Month. This one was long overdue, so please welcome Jason Wilson to the Pivot as he sits down for a pivotal conversation with me, Chan, and Freddie T.

• 2:32Ryan Clark?

  There he is.

• 2:33Fred Taylor?

  Oh, yes, sir.

• 2:33Speaker 04

  Yes, sir. Run this way.

• 2:36Fred Taylor?

  My man.

• 2:37Speaker 04

  Yes, sir.

• 2:38Ryan Clark?

  Finally, brother. It's a pleasure, man. It is a pleasure.

• 2:40Fred Taylor?

  I've been waiting on it for a minute.

• 2:41Ryan Clark?

  Yes, sir.

• 2:42Fred Taylor?

  Yes, sir. She ain't gonna say something crazy?

• 2:45Ryan Clark?

  I got some questions.

• 2:46Speaker 04

  You got some questions?

• 2:47Fred Taylor?

  We know you do.

• 2:48Ryan Clark?

  We get an opportunity to have a ton of conversations on this show, but to have Jason Wilson here, bestselling author, and the work you're doing with the union along with your wife. I don't want...

• 3:01Speaker 04

  Can't leave her out.

• 3:01Ryan Clark?

  I don't want to forget her, but every day continuing to inspire. And it's one of those things, you've been doing this work for decades before I finally saw the viral video. And you start to think to yourself, you know, it's like, what are they doing at the cave that is transforming these boys? That this man had so much patience with this young man going through what he was going through? And so I just want to say thank you for all that you're putting out in the world and giving us this opportunity. Flying here, actually, I was watching Batman and Bane was talking and he said, "Nobody cared about me before I put on the mask." And it was a superhero villain thing, but when I listened to that,

• 3:45Ryan Clark?

  I feel like so many men feel like they have to put on a mask in order to be cared about or in order to be thought of as valuable. Why do you think so many men struggle, Jason, with having the ability to open up and show the world who they truly are?

• 4:01Speaker 04

  Well, first and foremost, I believe that the facade, the mask you're speaking about is not... We don't put that mask on for people to care about us. We put that mask on to hide what appears to be weak to the world. Appears to be a failure, appears to be wounded to the world. And so it starts from childhood, we're told when we're young, big boys don't cry. And then when you become a man, no pain, no gain. So there's no escape from the facade. And men today are crying out, just wanting to be human. And I was watching on social media earlier and I saw a clip from Dana White. And I was really surprised to hear him say that men's mental health is BS.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  Considering that we have, what is it, 17.5 veterans who take their lives every day. Considering that men die by suicide almost four times as likely as women. Considering that over 70% of violent crimes are by us men. And to, it was, to me, was irresponsible because I have to look in the eyes of men and young boys who are battling, should I be a human or do I just appear to stay strong? Similar what Bain is saying, when he put that mask on, no one recognized the young boy Bain. And that boy had to be put away to become this villain. It happens when we become men.

• 5:29Speaker 04

  The broken boy inside of us never really gets a chance to heal. So we become this man with this broken boy inside of us. And then we're wondering why we can't navigate through our emotions or even the simplest of conversations with the women in our lives. We're quick, zero to 100, because we haven't had the opportunity to truly embrace who we are as authentic men. And emotions aren't just for women, they're for us as well. But the analogy I give in my latest book, The Man, The Moment, Demands, a crayon analogy. You know, when we were younger, you had the eight box of crayons, then you had the 64 box. You were a man if you had the 64 box of crayons because you could do more, you could color more. You had more opportunity to create different patterns and the sky could have different hues.

• 6:16Speaker 04

  But today, I compare the eight box of crayons to the emotions that we allow ourselves as men to feel. And it's typically, they all go back to anger. Anger is the surface emotion. But below that is sadness, depression, struggles with lust. You have abandonment, you have the mother and father womb. But we're taught only to appear strong, only to be masculine. And I got this epiphany before I created the term comprehensive man or comprehensive manhood. When the most I say, I need you to look up the word masculinity. And when I looked up the word, I was surprised that it wasn't a comprehensive definition of what a man is. It's a list of attributes like boldness, aggression, and strength.

• 7:01Speaker 04

  That's it. And so when a man is only locked into those three modes, he's not experiencing life. That's why we're leading in suicide. We take care of everyone but ourselves. I go through the mall, I was just in Dubai with my wife in Italy. And the man, when he's old, ready to, well, he's retired, he can't even walk. But his wife and everyone he took care of, they're moving freely. Because we're only, because they ain't even said in an interview that your job is just to provide. No, our job is to be human, to be authentic. Yeah, you gotta provide. I provide for mine, you provide for yours. But there's more to life than that. And it was even, you can't be a good father if all you can do is make money.

• 7:47Speaker 04

  You know, what kids need, they're not concerned about the presents you can give them. They're concerned about your presence. Are you there? I know so many multimillionaires who are fathers trying their best, never home. So it's more than provision, it's more than protecting. You gotta be a lover, you gotta be a leader, you gotta be a nurturer. The greatest cultures are nurturers. You're cultivating something. And so we've allowed ourselves to, for society to pigeonhole us. And then to go back to the crayon analogy, when our wives or the women in our lives, we're in a heated discussion or something meaningful,

• 8:28Speaker 04

  we can only meet them with, say, green, and she's coming with lime. So we're frustrated now that we have to put yellow and green together just to meet her in that moment. When all the entire time, we were given a box of 64 crayons, but didn't feel safe enough to express.

• 8:44Ryan Clark?

  And Jay, why you brought that analogy up? That was part of my study. I was gonna bring it up. Now that you said, now you can't go, "Man, that's a good question, R.C."

• 8:55Channing Crowder?

  But to what he's just saying? The provide protect. That's what we hear, provide protect. And the emotional side, like you're saying, what you speak about all the time and, you know, saying, amazing, amazing things that you're doing. But like, the emotional side of it, somebody gotta be the rock. I talk about it all the time, like, for my family, I have to be the rock. Everybody's crying. Everybody can't cry. I, I, if I'm, if everybody's crying and I start crying, now it's just a bunch of people laying around crying, like.

• 9:29Speaker 04

  But see, that's the misconception of men's mental health. It's not telling men to go somewhere and wallow out in weakness. It's saying, be human and release what's holding you back. Emotional suppression, men who suppress their emotions increase their chances of cancer by 70%. Also, men who suppress their emotions or humans increase their risk of premature death by 30. And that last one stand out to me the most, because I worked with a lot of boys over 20 years in Detroit. I can't tell you how many boys weren't allowed to feel fear, and now they're in the grave. Okay, they're told to man up, be tough, man. I had one kid I'll never forget, wanted to join the Cave of Adelam at his school.

• 10:13Speaker 04

  I said, "All right, I'll see you Monday." Very popular. Went to a party he wasn't supposed to be at, because there was some guys that didn't like, that didn't like him.

• 10:24Speaker 04

  He knew the guys probably would want to kill him, but he went anyway for his rep. I get a call from one of the students Monday morning, driving to work. Kid crying. Boy got his life taken from him. So, in marriage and you're taking care of your family, absolutely, if everyone's crying from fear or stress, there needs to be someone steadying that ship. But like the Irish proverb says, never trust a warrior who can't cry. He's hiding something. Every man is human. And then Dr. William Frey, the biochemist, he discovered that tears not only contain water when we cry from trauma and stress, but it contains stress hormones. That's why we feel better after we cry. To me, the

• 11:07Speaker 04

  the most liberating thing I could have done is cry in front of my wife. And I share that because I would always hold the pressure of everything. And then one day, my mother was deteriorating from dementia. Here it is, trying to be strong and I'm losing my mother. Me and coming up to me say, stay strong. That's the last thing I need to hear. And I just released in front of her. That moment, she said, made me look even stronger because she never knew what I was feeling. But when a man is able to show that side of him and still wipe the tears away like y'all playing, if you lost in the playoffs, y'all cry. Don't nobody say nothing about that?

• 11:51Speaker 04

  You win a trophy, y'all cry? But if your mother's dying, you can't cry? If you finally get to marry the woman of your dreams, you can't cry? My best, my best friend Gabriel, he was sitting, standing behind me at the wedding. My wife Nicole is coming down the aisle, looking beautiful. He leans up, he was like, dog, if you cry, I'm hitting you in your back.

• 12:16Speaker 04

  And I didn't cry, I held it in. And I miss being there for that moment. Do you understand what I snatched even from my wife? For her to know that she's everything I need and long for? I allowed the pressure of only being this fighter, only being strong, to steal the beautiful moment that I can't even get back. And that's the problem with that. Like, you know, if your wife is, say someone died in the family. The kids are crying, your wife crying. You can hold it together. But like the comedian Bill Burr said, what you gonna do? Go in the garage with a beer? Hide out? Swallow the depression, the sadness? And then it comes out later?

• 13:01Speaker 04

  It's best to be a part of the family. Let them see you cry, but then let your son see, hey, son, that's over. It's time for us to move on. Because when he gets out in this world, he's gonna judge life by what he see from you. And if you're constantly hiding who you really are, he's gonna feel worse when he feels fear. When he is emotional. He gonna say, man, I'm not a man, I'm not like dad. And then you wonder why the kids take the other route, the other path. So that's why I push comprehensive manhood, because it's innately in us. Yeah, you wanna be a warrior, you wanna fight, you wanna protect. But you also wanna love, you wanna be a nurturer. Be courageous, but be compassionate. Be comprehensive.

• 13:44Fred Taylor?

  Oftentimes you hear, like, they say men's mental health money, right? In that, it's men, it's masculinity. But we forget about the kid that's inside of the man, right? And there was a quote that I saw you say that stood out to me. When you said, it's easier to teach young boys than repair broken men. You know, how do we get there? Like, how do we nurture the child and focus on that before they get to that stage where they are, man? And everything that they've learned throughout their life cycle, now it's even harder for them to get that trauma out of them. You know, once they get, if I'm trying to question a word it the right way, like, how do we get there?

• 14:27Speaker 04

  You know, you're hitting it right on. The quote is actually from Frederick Douglass. He says, "It's easier to raise children than it is to repair broken men." And I add to that, he's correct, but we shouldn't leave men broken. And that's what's happening in our society. To your point about how do we meet young boys where they are? We call it in the cave, a moment on the mat. And what I love about martial arts, especially jujitsu and judo, your fears and anxiety are going to surface. You can't hide behind a helmet. It's going to come out. And in those moments, when a boy is triggered by some trauma from being bullied, I meet them right where they are. I give that boy what I always wanted. You know, my premise is to live from what I long for instead of what I lack.

• 15:12Speaker 04

  And so, us as men, especially you three brothers, who are very influential, and I salute you for the work you're doing, allowing this platform to be used for conversations like this. When a boy can really see that how strong you are, but then how sensitive you are, like Yeshua or Jesus, to be able to get down on your knees and meet them right there, they'll run through a wall for you. One of my favorite evaluations for the cave is that students improve their grade point average by, what is it, one letter grade without tutoring.

• 15:44Speaker 04

  What happens? Because they're finally able to not only express what they're feeling, but they get to release it in a space where they won't be condemned for feeling or being a human being. When that happens, they're still strong. They're still fighters. But now, the other side, the academics, the honoring their parents, improve, respecting their siblings, respecting themselves. So, meet them right where they are. Give them what young Fred wanted as a boy. When you can live from that good in your heart, instead of the fear of how we'll be perceived, that's when the generations can change.

• 16:18Ryan Clark?

  Jay, when does it get to, though, we are not holding adult men accountable for their decision-making in the moment, right? When you do have a family at this point, and you do have the responsibility of providing and protecting, and you try to point to those past traumas that maybe men haven't dealt with, but when does it start to be where we're pushing mental health so much, we aren't telling them that in this position that they are now in as adults, they need to be better decision-makers because their mother and their father or their past experiences or their past traumas aren't the things that are present today?

• 17:00Speaker 04

  That's really good. Well, to what Dana said, that I agree with that. You have to push through. A lot of, and this is probably why he misconstrued what men's mental health is. Some men take that for an opportunity to be lazier. To be inactive, apathetic, and not face what you're really hiding. So you have to be careful because we're just having this conversation, really, pretty much. My first book, Cry Like a Man, came out 2018. That was revolutionary for the time to tell men to cry and open up. And it's just 2026 now.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  So first things first, men need to make sure they have a reputable therapist. And see, we understand what it takes for, when you get trauma to your knees, to your ankles, to your shoulders. You're not playing if you got a torn ACL. What happens if you got a torn heart from a father woman who only condemned you your entire life? So you don't know how to model what it looks like to love your wife, even your children, or how to be responsible. Maybe you had a drinking habit. Maybe your mother abandoned you. To the point is like, yes, we need to, I don't like the word accountable. This is, and I have to be careful here. I don't believe any of us can hold our friends accountable. What I mean by that is, Channing, if you struggle with pornography,

• 18:26Speaker 04

  and you say, I'll be your accountability partner. For you to hold him accountable, to make sure that he doesn't watch pornography, you gotta be with him 24 hours a day. What we teach the men that I'm around, we teach self-responsibility or self-accountability. We believe that the only one can hold you accountable is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Most High. Because he's with you, if you're a believer in Christ, he's with you everywhere you go, okay? So now, the self-accountability piece is crucial. But that's where the counsel come in, that's where the therapists come in, that's where an experienced and reputable coach come in, that's where the camaraderie comes in. So if you're not, like, if we get closer, brother, like I hope we do,

• 19:10Speaker 04

  I open that for you two as well. If you're struggling at home and we have a conversation about it with your wife, and, or you hear that, you know, the way I talked to Nicole wasn't respectable, I expect you to say, hey, Jay, did you make that right with her? That's the same thing I do with you, but... One of my favorite scriptures is Proverbs 21, 27, 17. Iron sharpens iron so as one man sharpens another. To your point, when you talk about camaraderie, and what does it take to get a man from this dormant state to fully on fire? It requires sharpening, friction, being uncomfortable. I trained in martial arts almost 30 years now, and I studied one art called eido, where you study the sword.

• 19:55Speaker 04

  And I had to learn about sharpening and how to use a katana. And it's not effort, it's not strength, because all you need is, if your form is correct, the blade will do the rest of the work. So when the friction come, a lot of us run. I text some brothers, say, "How you doing?" That's loaded for them. They're not used to someone sincerely asking you, "How you doing?", so they don't respond.

• 20:19Speaker 04

  What we see now is polishing partners. We polish each other's sword so that when we draw, it looks like it can cut the struggles, the sin in our life, but it can't cut nothing because we haven't really invested in that friction. And the reason we polish each other, if we're honest, because we got some things that we want to hide too. So if I don't tell you something, if I don't tell on you, you don't tell on me. That's the thing with being a polishing partner. I don't need them around me. I need men to call out what they see in my actions, hearing my words. And I'm open to it, because you know what that does for me? You know it. I'mma say it when you slip. I'mma call you out. You gonna call me out? I'm calling you out. But that's love. Anything outside of that is compromise.

• 21:04Speaker 04

  And if you see your brother struggling, you know, you've got to be willing to let sparks fly sometime. But not in a way where it leaves our brothers condemned and hopeless, but that they're challenged and loved, you know?

• 21:16Channing Crowder?

  And is it, especially with kids, to the point about man and the kid, like you're saying, a grown man addressing, "Don't talk to your lady like that. You know, you shouldn't do that. Don't be out there." Like a grown man, I'm comfortable with telling them that's unacceptable. But almost like athletics with kids, like, coaches have to figure out what motivates this person. So even broken kids or kids that are going off the path, there can't be a cookie cutter way of dealing with them. How do you figure out, or how can we figure out with Dylan? I got a 14 and a 5-year-old son, 13-year-old daughter. Like, figuring a way out to that Chaz and Channing are two different people. They need two different motivations. And as you have students in your, in your class,

• 22:02Channing Crowder?

  like, how do you go about figuring out what that kid needs?

• 22:06Speaker 04

  There is no template model when it comes to raising children or mentoring children. Everyone's different. There's, our children can come with manuals. Okay, you can study, like, my daughter is amazing with her study of the mind and psychology, and she's going to be an awesome mother. But when she had that baby, it's going to change everything. And so what I do with the boys, again, meeting them where they are. My mother was there for me. But how do you address a young boy who is acting out because his mother traded him for drugs? So, again, it's about how would young Channing feel in that moment?

• 22:49Speaker 04

  Put yourself there and see, that's the struggle right there. If you're not used to being a verbal processor, basically being able to articulate what you're feeling on a deeper level without raising your voice, you can't meet your child where they are. That's why it's important to be comprehensive. They need dad as protector and provider, but they need him as a nurturer as well. And so in that moment, I got, my son, Jason, for instance, is growing up, was outgrowing his, his age, meaning his body. He wanted, he wasn't as coordinated as he, he wanted to be. I never had that issue. I, I, whatever I wanted to do, I could do. But in that moment, I said, I need, I pray, can I feel what he feels?

• 23:34Speaker 04

  And I really got the lesson, Channing, when my mother had dementia. Because I had to learn whatever was her fear, I needed to be right there with her. Instead of sitting across from her as she's having a panic attack, I learned to sit side by side with her and see what she sees. So if she's terrified of balloons in that moment, her son Jason is terrified of balloons. Whatever it is, I'm meeting you, mama, in that moment. Now, to your point earlier, I called it the dementia roller coaster. When she would get on these panic attacks and these outbursts of anger, I would get on there with her. Next thing you know, I'm emotional, up and down, up and down. My life is struggling. I learned eventually, no, no, no. You can get on this roller coaster.

• 24:18Speaker 04

  I'mma walk with you and meet you when it's over and grab you by the hand and we'll take our journey together. To my point, and I don't mean to be long-winded because, but it's something we can't really hammer out in one conversation. Work on yourself first far as like what's holding Channing back from being more expressive and emotional and transparent with his children. That's where I would start at. When you can find out that piece, then it becomes easier because your desire for you to even pose the question is in a good space. You just need to allow your heart to lead a little more in that moment and you'll be able to navigate through whatever they're dealing with.

• 25:03Speaker 04

  But you just want to meet them there and whatever's big to them. And I would have to say this, excellent question. We tend to minimize our children's stress. And what I mean by that is the classic, we all grew up around the same timeframe. If I was to tell my father I'm tired and I'm in eighth grade, he'll say, wait till you get a real job, boy. What you gotta work 10 hours a day. You got it? That is dismissive of what they're going through. And then you wonder why when they become teenagers, they don't want to talk to us. They got a job, it's called school. They're there seven hours a day. They're working, they have bosses. They're called teachers and principals and administrators. They have coworkers they don't like. They're called bullies.

• 25:47Speaker 04

  So that, but if your heart isn't open enough to really be that type of warrior for your children, we gonna keep missing that moment. But because you asked that question, brother, you right there. You just need a little more introspective work and you'll be able to meet the moment because it's clearly you care. And I'll be there for you, brother. You can give me a call whenever. I got you.

• 26:11Speaker 06

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• 26:42Speaker 04

  Y'all two grew up around the same time, not us. Yeah, I already know. Hey, hey. For you to ask me to walk here, Fred, he asked me, so I'm thinking it's around the block, right? It was closed. And I got my bag. So I get in the car. We had internet. We had internet. Hey, so the driver driving Fred, I'm like, I know my brother Ryan didn't think a 56-year-old man gonna walk a mile to the studio before the conversation. But yeah, so clearly y'all not our age. Hey, I get it all the time.

• 27:17Ryan Clark?

  Jay, I walk, I walk. I want to, you know, you keep, you mentioning your mother and I thank God my mother is still here. I listened to your post about your mother's passing and how you're still dealing with it. And I listened to every word. Called you the son of sons and she talked about your love. At what moment in her life was that recorded, Jay? And what did it mean to you to have those words so much that you still held on to them?

• 27:52Speaker 04

  When you talked about being strong for those that depend on you, my mother had a mini-stroke one day, right before I was about to teach class. And Nicole walked into the space where we were training. And she says, "Mama just had a stroke." So all the students out on the mat and the fathers are on the stage. And she says, "You need to leave now." In that moment, I'm like, "Okay, I gotta stay strong." And that's all my students ever saw. One of my students, Genesis, he asked, "Could he pray over me?" And I say, "Sure." So all the boys surrounded me and just started praying over me.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  Then the fathers came down and started praying over me. And I broke down, started crying. Initially, I was like, "Man, how will they perceive me now?" From that day on, I liberated them to finally express what they've been struggling with. That was a pivotal moment in my teaching and the training, because they were getting good with the martial arts. But their hearts weren't martial. Their hearts weren't liberated enough to fight for the things that they need, because they couldn't express it. Now, to your question, I'm driving to the hospital.

• 29:18Speaker 04

  I see her in the bed. And her legs, brother, was just jumping up and down. The doctors were like, they were baffled, like, "What is, what's going on?" And they asked me, "Could they see the video?" Because they had never seen anything like it. Now we understand it was trauma release. My mother's trauma, all the years of her grandfather, my grandfather, her father being lynched and beaten. Her first marriage, she was abused and beaten severely. My brothers were in the same house where their father would shoot guns when he was angry, would slap them with the flat sides of butcher knives.

• 30:01Speaker 04

  When you repress that emotion and hold it in, eventually it's gonna come out. That recording, brother, happened after she left rehab.

• 30:13Speaker 04

  And I gotta share this part two for men so they don't misconstrue what it means to be sensitive and caring, but then you gotta bring the lion back in. We say be the lion and the lamb. The rehab place which my mother was, they wanted to keep her because they could make more money off her, but my mother was ready to go. So she was in a wheelchair in front of me and the director came in and they were like, we need to keep her another two to three weeks. And I looked at her, I said, no, you don't. I said, I'll be back here in 15 minutes and I need you to have her at the front. And I said, I'm serious. She left. My mother turned to me and smiled because the entire time I'm the lamb, but then that lion came out.

• 30:57Speaker 04

  And they respected it because she said, I had to go talk to our board. I said, you need to do whatever you need to do to get my mother waiting for me when I come. That's when the world can recognize, yeah, you're caring, but you don't want to hit that other side of that man. When I took her home, bro, I laid her in the bed and the Holy Spirit said, get your phone out and record, hit record. I'm like, okay, you know. So I hit record and I got on my knees and I said, you feeling good? You okay? She was like, yeah. And she said, I'm just so thankful for you.

• 31:39Speaker 04

  And, you know, that's when everything you heard online came out and when she called me the sons of sons. And then when I said, well, mom, you know, I wasn't a good boy growing up. And she was like, immediately, no condemnation, you gotta be young, you gotta be you. She was just letting me know, you gonna make mistakes. Mistakes are great teachers. The only bad one is the one we don't learn from. And I just cried. We cried together that day and I thought she was about to die, you know, hearing that. And she lived another two years, but that was God saying, I'm gonna give you something that you're gonna need.

• 32:21Channing Crowder?

  Wow.

• 32:25Speaker 04

  Because people see the peace, but that came because I learned how to live through chaos and loss and still remaining calm at heart. They see the family, but they don't see the sacrifice. They see the boys transforming and changing, but they don't see the literal blood that I had to spill to make that happen, to be, to surrender my vessel to the Most High so He could use me in a way that countered the culture. So that moment there, I mean, I was just at her gravesite. You know, I go clean it off, put flowers down, and I push play. And, phew.

• 33:11Speaker 04

  There's nothing, there's nothing like having the love of a mother. And as men, we were told to seek unconditional love, right? I want someone that's gonna love me for me. And the closest you get to that is the love of a good mother. And this is why I get on my boys and the teenagers like, "My man, I get that you're upset because your dad ain't here, but you're crushing the one who is here." And that's why I gotta help you understand, like, dude, if she was to die, who's gonna take care of you?

• 33:53Speaker 04

  When your heart is broken enough to be used in that way, the tears don't bother you anymore? People saying things about you don't bother you anymore? It's a, it's a freedom. It is truly, as it is written, a peace that passes all understanding. You better love your mom, too. By the way, my sister Sharice fell in love with her with, like, two days. All right, so, yeah, no, if your mother is living, cherish her. Like, I'm serious. Because, and everyone watching this or hearing this who don't have their mother here, they tell you, like, man, every day, every second, if you can go see every day, I saw my mother every day, almost,

• 34:37Speaker 04

  when she had dementia. Every day, almost. I tell you the truth. Now that she gone, I have some peace. I left it all on the field for mom.

• 34:46Fred Taylor?

  How old was the young man that asked to pray over you?

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Probably seven.

• 34:52Fred Taylor?

  Seven?

• 34:53Speaker 04

  Wow, cuz it was just when I first started.

• 34:54Fred Taylor?

  Right, did that, did that give you the, the, the, the feeling that you were on the right path with, with the kids? And, and that way you were able to continue to push forward?

• 35:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, not when he asked, but after I broke down crying.

• 35:11Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 35:12Speaker 04

  And then the next training, the boys started opening up. We have what's called emotional check-in. Where we lay out a list of emotions, they gotta pick one and say, I feel this way today and this is why. So we're basically teaching them how to become verbal processors so that you don't be, so that you don't be that man in the garage that's angry and can't come in the house and share how he feels. We started noticing that instead of the template answers, I'm mad, I'm sad, I'm angry, whatever, cuz this happened, they'll start saying, "Well, today, this person said this to me and it made me feel this way and I'm still carrying that anger."

• 35:50Speaker 04

  Me being willing enough, not vulnerable, cuz I don't like using that word when it comes to men's mental health. Cuz what we're really trying to say is not be vulnerable, we're trying to tell men to be transparent or emotionally open. The word vulnerable, when you look at the word, it means susceptible to danger or harm. We're all vulnerable if a gunman come in here and we don't have any guns, alright? No man should ever desire to be in a vulnerable position for himself or his family or his loved ones. But that moment of me being transparent, Fred, that's when the boys were like, I can be free.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  Same thing with culture, even the quarter zip trend, for instance, right? Right, did you see, I hate the word YN, cuz you're not that, you're a young prince that's misguided.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  But they transformed from the Nike tech to the quarter zip, the tie, the slacks, I loved it.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  You don't see that much of it anymore, do you?

• 36:53Fred Taylor?

  Mm-mm, true.

• 36:55Speaker 04

  See, we're big on teaching them how to tie a tie, but not why not to tell a lie. We don't teach enough about character. We have grooming etiquette in the cave, so it's very important. But what's more important is to teach character. How you carry yourself. Integrity is not an option. It is the standard. When you have myths being pushed like the alpha male concept, which the creator of the concept debunked it. Said there is no battle between two wolves to see who is the leader in a wolf pack. The alpha male or males is the male and female wolf.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  And when you really get deep, they're only leading a family. So I tell men, if you want to be an alpha male for real though, get married and lead a family. And that's the key. To the point about culture, you had the Cosby effect. With Cosby Show, where everyone wanted to go to black colleges. Then you have the other effect of culture. Like, I come from the hip-hop culture. I used to DJ. I was in a rap group called Chaos and Maestro. I was thankful, have a great relationship with Chuck D and Public Enemy. He got us to do a couple of concerts with them. I know as a DJ in Detroit, I could put on a certain song. And if I wanted to leave early and still get paid, it'd start a fight and I'd get to wrap up. Let's go, baby.

• 38:24Speaker 04

  We go in the Mexican Village, Social Mocos was one of our favorite spots. I should have to say, the influence of a culture, we got to deal with everything when you talk about mental health. Certain music I used to love, I can't listen to anymore. I can't stand in front of my students and in my iPhone, I'm listening to a rapper who promotes trap houses, selling drugs, misogyny, and violence. So you got to draw a line, and that's the challenge. Because I love hip-hop. I could still make beats to this day. I could still DJ. If you had turntables right here, I was a battle DJ. It's still in me. But I saw the transition from this to this.

• 39:09Speaker 04

  What happened?

• 39:12Speaker 04

  Corporate interests got rid of that. They said, "Here you go, take these." How do we get that back? That's affecting our children. I see it every day. And so, when we talk about men's mental health or mental health in general or emotional wellness, we gotta deal with the cause and effect. What is it doing to us, even our children? And so, that's the crucial piece to being what you didn't see. Yes, we should use our experiences. Like, to this day, I'm thankful that I can apologize to a culture of people I allowed to be misled through my music.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  That was never the way. That's why I don't really blame the rappers, because I saw the shift. I was in Capitol Records with Chris Webber, because he was coming out with an album. And the CEO at the time said, "You can't rap about this. You gotta rap about this." I said, "Is that really true?" He was like, "Yes."

• 40:18Channing Crowder?

  You gotta make this, you gotta switch over for the bread.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, and so that's what's happening. So who defends those who really can't defend themselves? These kids are trying to eat.

• 40:30Channing Crowder?

  We got to.

• 40:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, we have to. You're doing it with this platform.

• 40:33Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, no, and I wonder, you said something earlier. The lion lamb. You want to have the lamb emotion and warmth, but you need to be a lion sometimes. And when your mother said, "I'm gonna leave this hospital," then you kick that lion in, "Well, I'm gonna leave." "I'm be outside in 15 minutes. Y'all better tighten up and get my mama to that curb."

• 40:56Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 40:57Channing Crowder?

  I think it's almost like with football, it's that where go out here and, like, we used to do defensively. Go out here and knock somebody's helmet off. And then the game ends, and then be a calm person again. But I think with parenting or with raising young men now, that lion-lamb switch, you have to explain to them when to turn on the lion and when to turn on the lamb. And now, I think it's almost a parenting thing for me, because I'm asking about my sons now and my daughter. Well, my daughter, I'm trying her basketball-wise to turn into a lion on the court.

• 41:31Channing Crowder?

  She's so sweet though. And she's so sweet, nice, loving lamb. But if somebody get a fast break, go bow him in the back of the head.

• 41:39Channing Crowder?

  But then the game's over, Jay, and I'm like, no, no, no, behave again. But with my sons, I don't want them to go get, you know, go out on the park and get punked and, you know, all that. But every time I get off the phone, they know, I love you. I kiss, I kiss everybody. I tell everybody I love you. Like, I want that lamb. But I think with young men nowadays, especially with the social media, the lion-lamb switch is a hard...

• 42:05Speaker 04

  There is no switch.

• 42:06Channing Crowder?

  But it's hard to teach. How do, how do you teach the lion-lamb switch?

• 42:10Speaker 04

  Model it. My son, well, first, let me break down the lion and the lamb. You want to live from the lamb or be in lamb mode. That's the parasympathetic state, where you're calm, you're chill, you can recover.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  The sympathetic state is fight or flight. You don't want to be in that. All right? Now, I want to live in the lamb state. I want, I want to be here, right where I'm at with y'all. The lion is the aggressor, the fighter. The male lion only, well, not only sleeps 18 to 20 hours a day.

• 42:45Speaker 04

  He don't really have to raise up, because he don't even hunt.

• 42:50Speaker 04

  When does the lion raise up? When predators come. You see? He ain't got, if I live in the lion, that's like me putting my foot to the floor, the pedal to the floor of my car, and that's how I drive every day.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  Stoplight. You know what I mean? What happens to my engine? It burns out. That's why we burnt out. No, no, no, no. I got it. First gear in my sports car is masculinity. I need to be strong, powerful, whatever it takes to get from being stuck to moving. Now I'm in second gear manhood. Now, okay, I can chill a little more. I can use wisdom and navigate my emotions without succumbing to them. Go to third gear and fourth gear, I'm cruising. Our boys are stuck in first gear. They never were taught how to shift. To your, my son model what the lion and lamb looks like.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them? That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  I remember telling my boss, "It'll be good for the brand." When leads were slow. Yeah, it, it wasn't.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  Cut the bullspend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  I wrote my book, I told a story. We just bought the building for the union, a nonprofit in Detroit. And my son wanted to play basketball, similar to your daughter. They had a gym on the third floor before I changed it to the cave. I said, "Well, let's just go to the building so you can shoot around." I'm new in the area.

• 44:35Speaker 04

  Dropped my guard, I did. Go in, he's hoofing, playing around. I walk out, I'm strapped, I legally carry a gun. But I had my back. I went to turn, I turned my back to the door to lock the door. And I hear a voice on my left say, "They're trying to kill us." No, they're trying to kill me. I turned to him, I said, "Who trying to kill you?" "They're coming around the corner." So I draw my gun.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  The car, sure enough, a Suburban, maybe four to five guys in it, they come around. I had a decision to make and this is the key of becoming a verbal processor or being able to process in real time. Because I would, if I would have been in lion mode in that moment,

• 45:23Speaker 04

  now they, and I'm looking at my son bleeding out.

• 45:30Speaker 04

  Instead, I stayed calm because I've been through a lot. This is, I'm not even shook with this. Like you need to, at the time, we didn't have red dots on our guns, optics. So I had a laser, so he saw a green light shining at him. I'm like, "You need to stay there, because this ain't making sense to me. If they trying to kill you, why you standing still?"

• 45:53Speaker 04

  Okay, I got chased before for my starter jacket in Detroit. So I know you don't stand still when someone's trying to come get you. Right. I tell little Jay, I said, "Hey, son, I need you to go back inside and go all the way to the back of the building. Everything is gonna be okay." I locked the door, and I see my son's face, because we had these small, like, glass where you could see him. And he's looking scared. To your point, I'm like, "It's gonna be good." Inside of me, I didn't know if this was the last time I seen my son. I didn't need him like Simba in Lion King, uh, Mufasa, like, fear for his life, fear for his son's life, because he was trying to be what? The beast.

• 46:37Speaker 04

  And he says, "I didn't know Kings got scared." See, that's the problem. Simba should have known. He said, "I was scared that day." I didn't need my son to see this hyper masculine, uh, facade, that there's never a time to use wisdom, just draw your guns and start blasting. He walks to the back of the building, I turn, get in my stance, suburban comes around, I'm waiting, I'm waiting, and they did a U-turn. At that moment, I look at the young man, because I kept him in my peripheral. He on the phone. Called them. Called them. They aborted, and he started running that way.

• 47:21Speaker 04

  I said, "So you gonna run in the direction of the people trying to kill you?" And this is crucial, bro. Get my son, get back in the car. I come home, and I'm sitting in the living room, then I go to the kitchen, and I'm just like this. And I told Nicole what happened. She says, "You okay?" I said, "Yeah, I'm good, but I need a moment." If I would have kept that and not released it, I would have came out later, somebody would have bumped into me, "What you doing, dawg?" You see? Or, my wife don't agree with something I said, "Why you always challenging me? Why everything gotta be an issue with you?" Because I didn't release, because I was calm in that moment.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  The lion wanted to come out, he did come out, but that lion drew truth to you, I was on blast. Yeah. But I said, "Nah, see, this is what wisdom does, it peeps out the foolishness." It's pessimistic, really. Solomon says, "With much wisdom comes great sorrow. When knowledge increase, comes grief." Because you get to see what's real and what's not. The blessing is, I could see the outcome, this prison time. If I would have just emptied a clip on a car, a guy's just driving around in a circle.

• 48:41Speaker 04

  In my house, Channing, I sat there, allowed myself to cry for a moment, because I was, man, the moment of you not knowing if you're gonna see your son again, that's real. And it was still there, my nervous system was remembering that. Like, "My man, that's still there, Jay, we gotta deal with that." And because I'm a comprehensive man, I said, "Oh, let me sit here and release that." Cole gave me about 10 minutes, I'm back laughing, having fun with my son. And that's what we need as men, for it to be modeled.

• 49:14Ryan Clark?

  Alright, this is the time of podcast beef, Jay, so I'm gonna tell the world about our one beef.

• 49:20Speaker 04

  Who beef?

• 49:21Ryan Clark?

  Me, me, right now, me and Jay had beef before. You don't know that? Yeah, we had beef.

• 49:24Speaker 04

  Besides you asking me to walk here?

• 49:27Channing Crowder?

  Don't bring out the lion, I heard about the lion already.

• 49:31Ryan Clark?

  We were talking about domestic violence at one point, and I said that I see it differently when a woman hits a man, as opposed to a man hitting a woman. You commented on it, and because I have your number, I was telling Channing about this, because I have your number, I was like, "I'm just gonna text it." Right? Because the one thing, because we actually weren't fighting or debating, we were having a conversation.

• 49:57Speaker 04

  We were, yes.

• 49:57Ryan Clark?

  A lot of times, people, especially on social media, they can't recognize that two adult men who respect one another are having a conversation. So I wanted to take it offline and do that. When you explained, okay, that you had been through this with a young man and had to protect him, that just didn't register to me, right? Because like the way I see it is if a young man is putting his hands on a woman, not only is it the emotional and the mental toll and the abuse and that trauma, there's just a physical mismatch that I just don't feel like a woman can overcome.

• 50:38Ryan Clark?

  And for a man, I do feel like there may be some sort of emotional imprisonment or mental imprisonment, but you have the physicality in most cases to remove yourself from that. Can you explain to me now, because I still didn't truly get what you were explaining to me, can you explain to me now why you see domestic abuse the same from both sides?

• 51:05Speaker 04

  I need to see that post, brother, because I don't, I don't, my mother was abused and I don't see it from both sides. I think I may have came from the angle of us not really knowing what happened.

• 51:15Ryan Clark?

  Gotcha.

• 51:15Speaker 04

  But to your question about physicality being enough for a man to stop this, that ain't it. It's the emotions. One of my martial arts instructors said, "Emotions are great servants, but poor masters. When you let them rule you, you become their slave." What stops a man from doing this? What stops a man from alcoholism? What stops a man from abandoning his children? Yeah, he's strong. What is that? It's here and here. When you're mentally and emotionally unhealthy, you can't govern anything.

• 51:58Speaker 04

  You see it in boxing when a fighter gets in his feelings and you got one that's still poised, bang, bang, bang, bang. You got one that's being aggressive and one being assertive, only punching when the target is there. The one who has enslaved his emotions gets knocked out. So until a man can learn how to navigate his emotions without succumbing to him, stop running from them, and start facing them, he's always going to be that slave. Road rage, you name it. It was in Iona, Michigan, two brothers, white brothers, were with their families. I teach this, it's heartrending.

• 52:40Speaker 04

  Got into an argument, hoes over in the parking lot and shoot each other to death.

• 52:48Speaker 04

  And I got their pictures because I love putting faces with situations like that. And I asked men, "How do you think those two men felt dying in their own blood, their warm blood on their bodies and their children and wives crying over them in that moment? Do you think they probably said, 'Man, if I could hit rewind.'"

• 53:10Speaker 04

  See, that's what it does when you're an emotionally stable man. You can hit rewind before you push play. You can see it unfold and say, "This is not advantageous for me to do this. Time to abort." But as long as culture promotes... First and foremost, I apologize, brother, because this is something I learned. It's not about the intent, it's about the impact of the intent. So although I meant well, I believe it may have even hurt you to some extent. And what I mean by that is like, I'm kind of challenging you in front of people and we know each other. I should have hit you on your phone. So I apologize for that publicly.

• 53:49Ryan Clark?

  I respect that. Thank you.

• 53:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, seriously. And I got reminded of that recently with a popular rapper. And I just agreed with a longtime friend of mine who made a statement about something he said. I get a text message with a screenshot from what I said and said, "Oh gee, this hurt." And I looked at that,

• 54:11Speaker 04

  and the most I was like, "You got to understand, you my ambassador. You speak when I speak to you and through you. You don't speak without me."

• 54:21Speaker 04

  I called the brother, we talked an hour. I apologized, said, "Hey, man, I want to thank you. Sharpening me because I'm not my own no more. When I surrendered my life to Christ, y'all sure, I'm not my own no more. What you see, it really ain't me, it's Him in me."

• 54:41Speaker 04

  I need to be very prayerful when I speak because I represent Him. This is why people don't believe the Scriptures say the unbelievers blaspheme our God because of the believers, their actions. You see? So here it is. I knew better. I said, you know what? Thank you, Abba, which is Father in Hebrew, for your grace. I'm not doing that no more. So I apologize to you because you, you, you, you my man.

• 55:10Ryan Clark?

  No, but, but that's, that's the thing. Like, and they know me very well. That was also, though, my respect for you wasn't going to make me do that publicly. You know what I mean? I was like, no, I was like, I know Him. We can text.

• 55:23Speaker 04

  But that's what make it even worse, what I did.

• 55:24Ryan Clark?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 55:25Speaker 04

  It's like, and so, you know, and that's why we always have to be on guard. You gotta kill the flesh because at any given moment, you can make that mistake. That's why I stay humble. That's why I don't judge people, you know? Like, I don't, if I was in that position, I, I, I hope I wouldn't do that. But condemnation closes the door.

• 55:47Ryan Clark?

  Jake, ask you a question? How do you, how do we decipher, though, right? You know, because I love in the start of The Man in the Moment, the man is like, you're just talking about how it's like, we always like, man up, you know, we, all these phrases that, literally, I played sports, right? I played sports my whole life. I was always told to man up, gut through it, and I lived by that, Jason. Like, like, truly, like, that was, I taught my son in, in many ways that way. Now, I loved him so much and we had so many conversations, there was that balance, right? Because I was always telling him, I have to teach you how to be responsible for family and a wife and children. But I just loved him so much, I also wanted him to be, explain to me why, right? Let's talk about this.

• 56:32Ryan Clark?

  And so, we had that balance, but how do I decipher between what's masculinity and what's toxicity and then sometimes ego? How do you tell your young men the difference between those things?

• 56:47Speaker 04

  All right, that's really good, bro, because... Again, and I want to say this again, so brothers don't misconstrue what we're saying. You have to be able to flip that switch. You have to be able, like, when I worked 12 hours a day for Coca-Cola, there was, I ain't had time to be crying. I had to get to work, because my daughter needed insurance. You got me? I had to put that music career on hold, so I could provide for my family. Now, to your point, let's say yelling, for example. So in the Cave of Adul, and people see me being able to help boys navigate their emotions. Some of them cry, some of them have anger, whatever. I'm not always like this in the cave, talking. I said, "Come on, Jeremiah, you got it, baby. You can do it, baby.

• 57:32Speaker 04

  You stronger than that. Let's go, let's go, let's go." It's not, "Man, you a loser, man. You soft. I'm gonna kick you off the squad right now. You gonna be on the bench. You ain't nothing. I knew you was a hoe. Get out of here. You a mama's boy." See the difference? One is condemning. One is uplifting. Yelling is a powerful tool, when they know you love them. They'll run through the wall, when they know you love them. See?

• 58:03Speaker 04

  Yelling, pushing them through drills, teaching them, like, having control when you're tapping your brother out. Like, don't go right to the lock. Count, one, two, three.

• 58:19Speaker 04

  Control. That's how we teach them that. They gotta get used to it. When they, when they leave our homes, they ain't gonna have men like us around. I want you to, my son, Jason, I want you to deal with your boss if he raises his voice at you. "Jason, I didn't like the way you handled that discussion in the meeting. I need you to do better next time." I don't need you to get in your feelings. In that moment, you say, "Yes, sir. I completely agree." If you don't agree, you don't need to say it in that moment. Wait till tomorrow and say, hey, can we have a meeting, sir? And then you learn how to express yourself for real. I've told men that I respect, when they offended me, you hurt. I don't say you pissed me off.

• 59:01Speaker 04

  See, anger, I call it a surface emotion because underneath it, I use the earthquake for the analogy. The epicenter is where we are now, where everything we love, you know, things in life. Then you have the hypo center, which is at the, where the earthquake begins. If we can express those emotions there before we get to the go to anger, we won't damage what's on the surface. For instance, if I'm lonely, that's at the hypo center, which is at the base. Then you have seismic waves, which causes the eruption. The next emotion is lust. Now I'm angry because this woman won't talk to me. Now I'm violent.

• 59:46Speaker 04

  Instead of dealing with, why are you lonely? Hmm, I have unresolved anger. Hmm, wow, my father didn't tell me he loved me until I was thirty seven. Hmm, my brother Larry was killed when I was three years old. So that means my mother, who I found was in a deep depression, I didn't receive, she couldn't give me the love that I needed in my formative years because she was deeply grieving her son, who was murdered at seventeen. He just got a scholarship to college. So a three year old walking around the house, hey, what's going on? And everything changed.

• 1:00:28Speaker 04

  I'm lonely because I didn't really deal with all that. And I'm, I'm, I'm careful there because that's not, that's my formula. That's what happened with me. And I could go on and on, but.

• 1:00:44Speaker 04

  I'm to the point in my life now where I've told everyone enough about the trauma I've been through. I would love for people to start seeing the joy I experience.

• 1:00:53Fred Taylor?

  Jason, that brings me to, we usually ask our guests their biggest pivot in life. But it seems that, you know, you just said that you don't really want to go there. So I want to ask you something else, and then we can wrap.

• 1:01:05Speaker 04

  No, I was just saying in general. Go ahead, bro.

• 1:01:08Fred Taylor?

  Because I think it's very important for men to understand, you know, what you would say about this particular question.

• 1:01:17Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:01:17Fred Taylor?

  So that's why I want to ask.

• 1:01:19Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:01:20Fred Taylor?

  What does masculinity look like in 2026?

• 1:01:23Speaker 04

  The same way it always did. It's an adjective.

• 1:01:28Speaker 04

  Believe it or not, you're gonna be shocked maybe if I tell you this. Harriet Tubman exuded masculine attributes when she grabbed that gun and said, "Let's go. We got only so much time, and you play around and you sacrifice as you may gotta go."

• 1:01:44Speaker 04

  It's always been there. We as men have allowed this one adjective to confine us to a miserable life. And every man watching this and listening understand what I mean by that. You got the cars, the watches, the jewelry, the cigars, all of that, and you're miserable. Because that's all your life is, providing and protecting. But in you, you got something that you love, that you want to do. Maybe you want to start a garden like a farmer. Maybe you want to paint. Maybe you want to be a chef.

• 1:02:23Speaker 04

  Masculinity is one tool in the toolbox for, as men. Even in ancient Israel, Deborah, the judge, and Beric, who name literally meant lightning. And the most I say, "I need you to go now and go to war and fight. I will free ancient Israel."

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  He didn't want to go. He was scared in that moment. We don't know why.

• 1:02:48Speaker 04

  Well, we do know why, well, you would assume because the army he was facing was massive. But Deborah said, "If I go with you," because he said, "I won't go without you." "All the glory will go to a woman." He didn't care. He made a decision in that moment. Mentally, I'm not here. I could jeopardize our whole army. I need you up front. I'm still gonna fight, though. But I need you connecting with y'all. Whatever her role was, he needed her. So I think your question is, what does manhood look like? So manhood is being comprehensive. You're more than masculine. You're truly authentic. You're courageous but compassionate, strong but sensitive.

• 1:03:32Speaker 04

  You're free to live from the good in your heart instead of your fears. That's what comprehensive manhood is. It incorporates strength, boldness, aggression, hardworking, discipline, focus. But it also incorporates nurturing, being a gentleman. We're so messed up, man. It's... Chivalry is now looked at as pandering to women. When I studied it, chivalry was a code for medieval knights, the warriors of their day. "How is the family? How's my... how's the children?

• 1:04:14Speaker 04

  I'm opening the door for the elderly." You see, when you have wounded men leading, you create a generation of wounded men who are following. So comprehensive manhood is the way. It's how we were designed in the beginning. You had David, the greatest warrior to me in the scriptures, period. Throughout the entire book of Psalms, he's crying out to the Most High. "But you dare not test him." He was not the one to play with. He slayed a giant that tormented ancient Israel. And it was so bad that the men of that day

• 1:04:56Speaker 04

  sent the boy out to face a champion nine-foot giant. But because he had the heart... Following the good in it. Got rid of Goliath. And because of that, his son Solomon never had to fight a war for 120 years. See, when we moderate and we live it, yeah, it's hard right now. It's revolutionary what we trying to do. But like our ancestors, brothers, we not living, we not doing what we doing for the day. We doing it for what our children gonna see, what they gonna have. And that's, that's what comprehensive manhood offers.

• 1:05:33Ryan Clark?

  I don't know. I thought, I mean, I've watched podcasts. I've watched it on social. I think seeing it in person sometimes makes it real. I thank you for this conversation. I think it was, it was long overdue for, for us, for you and I. And I'm glad we got to have that conversation in person as well. Just continue to, to do the work that you're doing. I know you know the impact that you have on Detroit. I know you know the impact you have with what you guys are doing with the Union and in the cave. But it's comprehensive that you are touching people who never even get opportunities to shake your hand.

• 1:06:09Speaker 04

  Thank you. It means a lot. I'm honored to finally be here.

• 1:06:12Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:12Speaker 04

  And experiencing it live is definitely different than on YouTube.

• 1:06:17Ryan Clark?

  My man.

• 1:06:19Channing Crowder?

  All the good stuff. I thought you were talking about me.

• 1:06:24Channing Crowder?

  I'm near pity me a manhood.

• 1:06:51Speaker 07

  Every game day, you show up for your team. Now it's your time.

• 1:07:01Speaker 08

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