#286 Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger

What I learned from reading All I Want To Know Is Where I'm Going To Die So I'll Never Go There: Buffett & Munger – A Study in Simplicity and Uncommon, Common Sense by Peter Bevelin. ---- Get access to the World’s Most Valuable Notebook for Founders by investing in a subscription to Founders Notes ---- Follow one of my favorite podcasts Invest Like The Best and listen to episode Mitch Lasky—The Business of Gaming Follow the podcast Gamecraft to learn more about the history of the video game industry. ---- [2:01] Buffett and Munger have a remarkable ability to eliminate folly, simplify things, boil down issues to their essence, get right to the point, and focus on simple and timeless truths. [3:00] The Almanack of Naval Ravikant: A Guide to Wealth and Happiness by Naval Ravikant and Eric Jorgenson. (Founders #191) [4:00] Warren Buffet or Charlie Munger are the very wise grandfather figure that I never had. [5:00] To try to live your life totally free of mistakes is a life of inaction. —Warren Buffett [5:00] The sign above the players' entrance to the field at Notre Dame reads ´Play Like a Champion Today.' I sometimes joke that the sign at Nebraska reads 'Remember Your Helmet.' Charlie and I are 'Remember Your Helmet' kind of guys.' We like to keep it simple. (You must structure your life and business to be able to survive the inevitable bad decisions you’re going to make.) [5:00] Wisdom is prevention. —Charlie Munger [6:00] We make actual decisions very rapidly, but that's because we've spent so much time preparing ourselves by quietly sitting and reading and thinking. —Charlie Munger [7:00] If you get into the mental habit of relating what you're reading to the basic underlying ideas being demonstrated, you gradually accumulate some wisdom. —Charlie Munger [7:00] At Berkshire, we don't have any meetings or committees, and I can think of no better way to become more intelligent than sit down and read. I hate meetings, frankly. I have created something that I enjoy: I happen to enjoy reading a lot, and I happen to enjoy thinking about things. —Warren Buffett [7:00] We both hate to have too many forward commitments in our schedules. We both insist on a lot of time being available to just sit and think. —Charlie Munger [8:00] I need eight hours of sleep. I think better. I have more energy. My mood is better. And think about it: As a senior executive, what do you really get paid to do? You get paid to make a small number of high-quality decisions. — Invent and Wander: The Collected Writings of Jeff Bezos, With an Introduction by Walter Isaacson. (Founders #155) [9:00] I think people that multitask pay a huge price. When you multitask so much, you don't have time to think about anything deeply. You're giving the world an advantage you shouldn't do. Practically everybody is drifting into that mistake. I did not succeed in life by intelligence. I succeeded because I have a long attention span. —Charlie Munger [9:00] Jony Ive on Steve Jobs: Steve was the most remarkably focused person I’ve ever met. (Video) [11:00] It is just that simple. We've had enough good sense when something was working well, keep doing it. The fundamental algorithm of life: repeat what works. —Charlie Munger [13:00] ALL THE BUFFETT AND MUNGER EPISODES: Berkshire Hathaway Letters to Shareholders 1965-2018 by Warren Buffett. (Founders #88) The Snowball: Warren Buffett and the Business of Life by Alice Schroeder. (Founders #100) The Tao of Warren Buffett by Mary Buffett & David Clark. (Founders #101) Buffett: The Making of an American Capitalist by Roger Lowenstein. (Founders #182) A Few Lessons for Investors and Managers From Warren Buffett by Warren Buffett and Peter Bevelin. (Founders #202) The Essays of Warren Buffett by Warren Buffett and Lawrence Cunningham. (Founders #227) Tao of Charlie Munger by David Clark (Founders #78) Charlie Munger: The Complete Investor by Tren Griffin. (Founders #79) Poor Charlie's Almanack: The Wit and Wisdom of Charles T. Munger. (Founders #90) Damn Right: Behind the Scenes with Berkshire Hathaway Billionaire Charlie Munger by Janet Lowe. (Founders #221) [14:00] Buffett: It's an inversion process. Start out with failure, and then engineer its removal. [15:00] Munger: I figure out what I don't like instead of figuring out what I like in order to get what I like. [15:00] Repetition is the mother of learning. [17:00] Munger: You can see the results of not learning from others' mistakes by simply looking about you. How little originality there is in the common disasters of mankind. (Business failures through repetition of obvious mistakes made by predecessors and so on.) [18:00] Munger: History allows you to keep things in perspective. [18:00] Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again. [19:00] Berkshire was a small business at one time. It just takes time. It is the nature of compound interest. You cannot build it in one day or one week. [20:00] Pretend that every single person you meet has a sign around his or her neck that says, “Make me feel important.” [22:00] Buffett: In almost 60 years of investing we found it practically useless to give advice to anyone. [23:00] Munger: One of my favorite stories is about the little boy in Texas. The teacher asked the class, If there are nine sheep in the pen and one jumps out, how many are left? And everybody got the answer right except this little boy, who said, None of them are left. And the teacher said, You don't understand arithmetic. And he said No, teacher. You don't understand sheep. [25:00] Quite often Henry simply talked about his philosophy of running a corporation and the various financial strategies that he came up with as he sat in his corner office each day, often working at his Apple computer. He was a brilliant business strategist, just as he was a brilliant chess strategist and he came up with many creative ideas, ideas that were sometimes contrary to the currently accepted methods of managing a large corporation that prevailed in those days. “He always tries to work out the best moves," Shannon said, "and maybe he doesn't like to talk too much, because when you are playing a game you don't tell anyone else what your strategy is." — Distant Force: A Memoir of the Teledyne Corporation and the Man Who Created It by Dr. George Roberts. (Founders #110) [28:00] Buffett: The difference between successful people and very successful people is that very successful people say no to almost everything. [29:00] If you want to know whether you are destined to be a success or a failure in life, you can easily find out. The test is simple and it is infallible: Are you able to save money? If not, drop out. You will lose. You may think not, but you will lose as sure as you live. The seed of success is not in you. — James J. Hill: Empire Builder of the Northwest by Michael P. Malone. (Founders #96) [31:00] Buffett: Life tends to snap you at your weakest link. [35:00] Sol Price: Retail Revolutionary & Social Innovator by Robert E. Price (Founders #107) [38:00] Paul Graham’s essays (Founders #275-277) [39:00] I'm very suspect of the person who is very good at one business, who starts thinking they should tell the world how to behave on everything. —Warren Buffett [42:00] The Essays of Warren Buffett by Warren Buffett and Lawrence Cunningham. (Founders #227) [44:00] This life isn't a greenroom for something else. He went for it. —Bourdain: The Definitive Oral Biography by Laurie Woolever. [44:00] Buffett: We're here on the earth only one time so you ought to be doing something that you enjoy as you go along and you can be enthusiastic about. [48:00] Personal History by Katherine Graham. (Founders #152) [49:00] The problem is not getting rich, it is staying sane. —Charlie Munger [54:00] Learning is not memorizing information. Learning is changing your behavior. Most people can’t learn from the experiences of other people: Charlie and I don't expect to win you over to our way of thinking—we've observed enough human behavior to know the futility of that, but we do want you to be aware of our personal calculus. [57:00] We are individual opportunity driven. Our acquisition technique at Berkshire is simplicity itself: We answer the phone. [1:00:00] A brand is a promise. —Warren Buffett [1:01:00] Obsess over customers. Buffett said this about Amazon in 2012: Amazon could affect a lot of businesses who don't think they will be affected. For Amazon, it is very hard to find unhappy customers. A business that has millions and millions of happy customers can introduce them to new items, it will be a powerhouse and could affect a lot of businesses. [1:03:00] Munger: We should make a list of everything that irritates a customer, and then we should eliminate those defects one by one. [1:04:00] Most companies, when they get rich, get sloppy. [1:05:00] Munger: One of the models in my head is the 'Northern Pike Model. You have a lake full of trout. But if you throw in a few northern pike, pretty soon there aren't many trout left but a lot of northern pike. Wal-Mart in its early days was the northern pike. It figured out how the customer could be better served and just galloped through the world like Genghis Kahn. [1:09:00] Practice! Michael Jordan: The Life by Roland Lazenby. (Founders #212) [1:10:00] Market forecasters will fill your ear, but they will never fill your wallet. [1:11:00] We don't have any new tricks. We just know the old tricks better. ---- Get access to the World’s Most Valuable Notebook for Founders by investing in a subscription to Founders Notes ---- “I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested so my poor wallet suffers. ” — Gareth Be like Gareth. Buy a book: All the books featured on Founders Podcast ---- Founders Notes gives you the ability to tap into the collective knowledge of history's greatest entrepreneurs on demand. Use it to supplement the decisions you make in your work. Get access to Founders Notes here. ---- “I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested so my poor wallet suffers. ” — Gareth Be like Gareth. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00David Senra?

  For the last five years, I've been writing a memo to myself. I have found this to be an excellent way to learn. The memo is in the form of a discussion between four characters. It's a story about a fictitious seeker and his visit to the Library of Wisdom, where he meets another fictitious character, the librarian, along with Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. What has been reinforced in writing this memo is the efficiency, simplicity, clarity, and common sense of judgment that are the hallmarks of Buffett and Munger. Both have a remarkable ability to eliminate folly, simplify things, boil down issues to their essence, get right to the point, and focus on simple and timeless truths. They are the Einsteins of business and wisdom.

• 0:44David Senra?

  If there's one goal of this book, it is to better understand how they think. That is from the very brief introduction of the book that I'm going to talk to you about today, which is, "All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I'll never go there." Buffett and Munger: A Study in Simplicity and Uncommon Common Sense, and is written by Peter Bevillen. So I wasn't expecting to read this book right away. It was actually recommended by my friend Eric Jorgenson. Eric Jorgenson is also the author of the book that I covered on episode 199, which is The Almanac of Naval Ravikant. But anytime Eric recommends a book, I immediately order it. This book came a few days later. I pick it up, crack it open, trying to take a peek, see what the book was all about. I start reading it, and I never stopped. And I think the reason it resonated with me immediately is because when you read the book,

• 1:26David Senra?

  I feel it as if Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger are speaking directly to you. And I told you this before, but the reason I've read every single book I can find on Warren Buffett or Charlie Munger is because I really feel like they're the very wise grandfather figure that I never had. One of my grandfathers died when I was too young to remember him, and the other one was a psychopath and a monster and dumber than a bucket full of rocks. And so when I listen to Munger and Buffett speak, or I read their writing, I really do view it as, hey, this is the wise grandfather figure that I never had. They have six decades more life experience than I do. They've seen all kinds of different things, and they've learned from that experience. And then they push that knowledge and the information that they've acquired over their very long lives down to future generations.

• 2:09David Senra?

  And so almost all my highlights are Munger and Buffett talking directly to you and I. It is very surprising that they start the book on the subject of mistakes. And so it starts off with Munger saying, "Mistakes are a fact of life. I'm not gnashing my teeth over them or suffering or enduring them. I regard it as perfectly normal to fail and to make bad decisions." Buffett comes in. Remember, this is going to be like a dialogue between them. I guess just to tell you, so what's interesting about this book compared to the rest of the books that I've read on both Munger and Buffett is they quote heavily. So he uses, obviously, any of like the books written about Munger and Buffett, but also a lot of it is from the annual meetings that Buffett and Munger both put on. And so the author organized all this so we can read it in like a conversational format. So you have Munger that says that.

• 2:53David Senra?

  Buffett says, "Everyone makes mistakes. I've made a lot and I'm going to make more. That's the nature of making a lot of decisions. Try to live your life totally free of mistakes is a life of inaction. Stupidity is inevitable. It happens to everyone. Wrong decisions are part of life. Being able to make them work out anyway is one of the abilities of those who are successful." And so that's one main theme that they repeat over and over again is the fact that since mistakes are inevitable, you have to structure your life and your business to be able to survive the inevitable bad decisions that you're going to make. And Buffett has a funny little memorable way to describe their approach to being able to survive mistakes. He says, "The sign above the players' entrance to the field at Notre Dame reads, 'Play like a champion today.' I sometimes joke that the sign at the field

• 3:36David Senra?

  in Nebraska reads, 'Remember your helmet.' Charlie and I are remember-your-helmet kind of guys. We like to keep it simple." And then they go into the fact that avoiding problems is better than being forced to solve them. This is a really amazing way that Charlie Munger describes this idea. He says, "Wisdom is prevention." Then Buffett says, "It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark, and he didn't even look that smart for 39 days. But there are some things you have to think ahead on, and prevention is enormously important. And so if wisdom lies in prevention, how do you gain wisdom?" And Munger says, "If wisdom is what you want, you're going to get it by sitting on your ass. If you really want to be an outlier in terms of achievement, sit on your ass and read and do it all the time."

• 4:19David Senra?

  And then Munger goes into the fact that because they spend so much time gaining wisdom and preparing, that allows them to actually make decisions really quickly when you have the few great opportunities in your life that are presented to you. He says, "We actually make decisions very rapidly, but that's because we've spent so much time preparing ourselves by quietly sitting and reading and thinking." Buffett chimes in. He says, "Unfortunately, Bertrand Russell's observation about life in general applies with unusual force in the financial world. Most men would rather die than think, and many do." And then Munger says, "If you get into the mental habit of relating what you're reading to the basic, underlying ideas being demonstrated, you gradually accumulate some wisdom." So then they're asked a question, "But how do you guys have so much time to read?

• 5:03David Senra?

  I always believed that you were very busy all the time and that you had meetings all the time." Buffett says, "At Berkshire, we don't have any meetings or committees, and I can think of no better, no way to become, no better way to become more intelligent than sit down and read. I hate meetings, frankly. I have created something that I enjoy." He's obviously talking about his company. "I've created something that I enjoy. I happen to enjoy reading a lot, and I happen to enjoy thinking about things." Munger says, "We both hate," this is something that I've really adopted. I think it's one of the best ideas that they have. And it's this idea that you have to schedule time to think and you cannot, Munger's gonna say something funny, where it's like, "Most people, most business people schedule themselves like a dentist." He's like, "Well, if you do that, every single minute of your day, from the time you wake up to you go to bed is accounted for. When the hell are you thinking?"

• 5:46David Senra?

  And I'll get into why Jeff Bezos picked up on this is such an important thing in one second. Munger says, "We both hate to have too many forward commitments in our schedules. We both insist on a lot of time being available almost every day to just sit and think." I've heard various stories over the years about this, but for example, like, let's say you wanted to meet with Warren Buffett, you wanted to schedule something, and say, "You know, hey, can you meet, you know, the third week of next month?" He's just gonna say, "No. If you want to meet me Friday, call me Thursday and I'll tell you if I'm available." I interact with a lot of founders. It's completely different than how most founders schedule their time. Maybe we should be learning from their experience. Munger says, "We schedule time to think. Most people schedule themselves like a dentist. It's so easy to get so busy that you no longer have time to think, and you pay a huge price for that." And so when I got to this part, I thought of something that I read that Jeff Bezos

• 6:31David Senra?

  said one time. This is in the book Invent and Wander: The Collected Writings of Jeff Bezos. I covered it all the way back on episode 155. But Bezos said, "I need eight hours of sleep. I think better. I have more energy. My mood is better." And think about it. As a senior executive, what do you really get paid to do? You get paid to make a small number of high-quality decisions. If I make like three good decisions a day, that is enough, and they should just be as high quality as I can make them. Warren Buffett says he's good if he makes three decisions a year, and I really believe that. And I think what Bezos would tell you, what Buffett would tell you, what Munger would tell you, he's like, "How the hell do you expect to make high-quality decisions if you're not spending any time deep in thought and you're focused?" This leads directly into one of my favorite parts, something that they repeat over and over again, the dangers of multitasking. They

• 7:16David Senra?

  say over and over again, "What worries me and Charlie most is a lack of focus." Munger says, "This modern generation, which has gotten so good at doing two or three things at once, multitasking, all confidently predict, will end up worse than people more like Warren Buffett, with solitary reading time and less trying to do three things at once." I think people that are multitasking pay a huge price. I think Edwin Land, founder of Polaroid, somebody I talk about over and over again on the podcast, that's Steve Jobs' hero, he would agree with exactly what they're saying. He talks about the powers of intense concentration hour after hour, will actually release things inside of people that they didn't even know existed. I sent this video of Johnny Ive to a bunch of my founder friends, and in like three minutes, he talks about, "Hey, Steve Jobs was the most remarkably focused person I knew." And so this idea of the importance of focus appears over and

• 8:01David Senra?

  over and over again. If you just pick up any of these biographies, you're gonna see it, just jump out, jump out at you, it's so obvious. I think people that multitask pay a huge price. I think when you multitask so much, you don't have time to think about anything deeply. You're giving the world an advantage you shouldn't. Practically, everybody is drifting into this mistake. This is amazing that what Munger says. "I did not succeed in life by intelligence. I succeeded because I have a long attention span." And then Munger goes in, "This is not rocket science. This is very obvious, and yet, people don't do it." Johnny Ive, in that video, the reason I send it around so much, is he talks about, "Listen, this seems really simple, but I'm shocked at how so few people do it." So I always, whenever I hear something like that, where it's like, "This is really important." High priority, repeat it over and over again. And yet, it goes completely against human nature.

• 8:45David Senra?

  And you know it goes against human nature because most people don't do it. And I'm like, okay, that like alarms go off in my mind. It's like, okay, that is extremely important. That's something you need to master, right? And so Munger goes into this. He goes, it's just this simple. We have enough good sense. When something was working well, we keep doing it. The fundamental algorithm of life, repeat what works. Moving ahead, there's going to be three main ideas spread across a couple of pages. They're going to repeat these ideas a lot, which is very surprising. One is something that I think you know well, but it's worth repeating. You should aim to be consistently not stupid. Then they talk a lot about do not let the thoughts of others interfere with your own. And then something that I talk about that comes up a lot in conversations with other founders

• 9:28David Senra?

  is it's so difficult to build a successful business. And then what happens and what Munger and Buffett are always talking about is like, first of all, it's very difficult to build a very successful business. And most likely, your downfall, once you're able to achieve something that's extremely rare, is not that you're going to be taken over by a competitor or something like that. It's that you're going to mess it up. And they talk about that people, there's something in human nature where people are driven crazy by extreme success. And of course, they're able to describe all of these ideas in just a few sentences. The first thing here is Munger saying, hey, the one thing that surprised me all my life is how many people with high IQs do massively stupid things. Someone once said, what most distinguishes the foolish and the intelligent is the foolish

• 10:10David Senra?

  consistently commits the same stupidities, while the intelligent always find new ones. So that's really funny, obviously. Munger then continues, while an excess of self-regard is often counterproductive in its effects on cognition, it can cause some weird successes from overconfidence that happens to cause success. So what does that mean? That's kind of a weird language there. This is, he breaks it down into a maxim that I've heard Munger repeat several times. And he says, never underestimate the man who overestimates himself. Buffett chimes in. He says, I would say if Charlie and I have any advantage, it is because we're rational and we very seldom let extraneous factors interfere with our own thoughts. That you're going to hear Buffett. And Munger say variations of this idea over and over again.

• 10:54David Senra?

  Let me go back to what Buffett's saying. He is saying, hey, we try to be rational. We don't let the, we try to mute the outside world, right? We're not going to let the outside world interfere with our own thoughts. We do not let other people's opinion interfere with our own. And then Munger goes back into this thing. Don't mess it up. You need patience and discipline and an ability to take losses and adversity without going crazy. You need an ability to not be driven crazy by extreme success. And then they go on for multiple, multiple pages about one of their favorite ideas. This is this idea of inversion. I've covered this idea a lot in the other Munger and Buffett episodes. I will list all of them in the show notes down below in case you want to check out. You know, I don't even know how many there are. There might be like eight or 10 or something like that.

• 11:35David Senra?

  You can also go to founderspodcast.com and see like all the show notes in case it doesn't show up on your podcast player. But I'm going to try to avoid covering things I've covered in past podcasts because I just assume when I make the podcast that you're just like me, that you're a maniac. And then when you find something that you're interested in, like I was interested, you know, in Charlie Munger or Buffett. I'll read every single book and get my hands on. I would listen to every single podcast, so I will list them all. And obviously, if you're interested in learning more from Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger, just listen to them and, you know, listen to them again. And so they're going to talk about inversion throughout the entire book. Munger starts off, that is very much my approach to wisdom. I go around figuring out what doesn't work and then I avoid it. Invert, always invert. I sought good judgment mostly by collecting instances of bad judgment, then pondering ways to avoid such outcomes. So that is in his personal, like his personal life, right?

• 12:19David Senra?

  But he also talks about it's extremely useful in studying why other people fail in business. To examine how businesses become big and strong, Charlie first studies how businesses decline and die. Buffett says, we have been a student of other people's folly and it has served us well. And then Buffett has a great line on how do you actually practice this? This is, this is fantastic. It is an inversion process. You start out with failure and then engineer its removal. And this is one of my favorite ideas in the book. And another way to think about an idea I've already been previously exposed to. It's like, oh, you should figure out what you don't like to get to what you do like. And so it says, Munger says, the mental process that has really worked for me my whole life. And I use it all the time is turning everything into reverse.

• 13:02David Senra?

  I figure out what I don't like instead of figuring out what I like in order to get what I like. And so they go on giving examples of inversion over and over again. And interspersed through all these examples of inversion, they say stuff like this, hey, I think a lot, this is Buffett, I think a lot of people make things more complicated than they need to, really think you should keep things simple. In both business and investments, it's usually far more profitable to simply stick with the easy and obvious than it is to resolve the difficult. And then they end this section of the book with why they're saying this. This is something you and I have talked about for years. Repetition is persuasive. They said, some things may seem a little repetitious, but repetition is the mother of learning. And so if you pick up this book and read it, and I hope I can encourage you to do so, you're going to be maybe surprised, but a large part of this book is actually on the

• 13:48David Senra?

  human psychology and then observable human nature throughout history. And if you think about this, like, okay, why would some of the greatest founders and investors of all time, and Munger and Buffett, why would they be so obsessed with that? Because business is people, right? Your business partners are people, your customers are people. And so they just have a lot of it is like avoiding, they talk about, you know, there's a lot of low quality traits in human beings and low quality people on this earth, you need to avoid them. Again, I think they, they give you a simple way to do this. And so Buffett talks about like, well, when you're picking people to do business with, he just has this thing, he's like, you know, if you need like a 50-page contract to protect yourself from the person you're dealing with, you need to walk away from that deal immediately. He says, I like to deal with people where I feel a one-page contract would do the job.

• 14:31David Senra?

  And one apparent almost contradiction, when you read, they talk about, hey, you know, we spent so much time studying history, reading biographies, learning from the experiences of others, and then they keep repeating that most people do not learn from other people. And Munger's got a great illustration at this point. He goes, you can tell that most people don't learn from the experience of other people because there's little originality in the disasters of mankind. We'll get there in one second. Buffett said, the trick is to learn most lessons from the experience of others. Munger says, the more hard lessons you can learn vicariously, rather than through your own hard experience, the better. You can see the results of not learning from other people's mistakes by simply looking around you. How little originality there is in the common disasters of mankind.

• 15:13David Senra?

  He goes on to list some drunk driving deaths, incurable venereal diseases, conversion of bright college students into brainwashed zombies as members of destructive cults, business failures through, this is such a great line, "business failures through repetition of obvious mistakes made by predecessors," and so on. I just love that idea. It's like you can tell people are not, or most people are incapable of learning from the experience of other people because there's no originality in the common disasters of mankind. They just repeat over and over again. I think you'll learn a lot from other people. In fact, I think you learn, basically, if you can learn basically everything from other people, you don't have to get too many new ideas on your own. You can just apply the best of what you see. And then a few pages later, they essentially give an enthusiastic endorsement

• 15:57David Senra?

  of listening to Founder's Podcast because they say, "Study effective individuals." Buffett says, "Look at effective individuals and try to figure out why they're effective." Munger says, "I think history is very helpful. It enables you to keep things in perspective. So, the history of civilization and the history of finance and investing, it is very useful." Buffett says, "I like history. I like financial history. It is useful to realize how extraordinary things can happen occasionally." This is a great, great line. "Everything that needs to be said has already been said, but since no one was listening, everything must be said again." Now, we've got a couple of different ideas, all centered around this one main idea. Focus on the essence, the most important thing, the core.

• 16:39David Senra?

  Always try to simplify things to their essence, the fundamental or most important aspect of something. The core is the way to think about it. Charlie's got the best 30-second mind in the world, Buffett said. If I call him and describe a problem to him, any kind of situation, he gets to the essence of it immediately. When we make decisions, we focus on the most important thing." Something they preach over and over again is get into a good business and allow the miracle of compound interest to do most of the work for you. I talk about this over and over again with you, that time carries most of the weight. Buffett says, "Compound interest is a little like rolling a snowball down a hill. You start with a small snowball, and if it rolls long enough, you'll have a real snowball at the end. It's better if you're not in too much of a hurry and keep doing sound things."

• 17:21David Senra?

  The reason I wanted to read you that paragraph is really for this next two sentences. Berkshire was a small business at one time. It just takes time. It is the nature of compound interest. You cannot build it in one day or one week. Going back to this idea that once you're in a good business, stay in a good business, let time do the work. Charlie Munger talks about this as staying on the wave. So he says, when new businesses come in, there are huge advantages for the early birds. And when you're an early bird, there's a model that I call surfing. When a surfer gets up and catches the wave and just stays there, he can go for a long, long time. But if he gets off the wave, he becomes mired in the shallows. People get long runs when they're right on the edge of the wave. And so he uses the example, like Microsoft or Intel.

• 18:06David Senra?

  Stay on the wave. And then they give some ideas on both that are effective for sales and effective for managing other people within your organization. Mary Kay once said, "It's so simple, yet makes such a difference. Pretend that every single person you meet has a sign around his or her neck that says, 'Make me feel important.'" "All human beings work better if they get reinforcement. If there are constant rewards for doing well, you will be driven to do more of the same." And then they have a theme that they repeat over and over again with different little stories. And a lot of it actually is related to Buffett loves baseball stories. But it's just this idea that there's just, most of the world is, by definition, has to be mediocre. In that if you can actually do the work necessary to turn yourself into a formidable individual,

• 18:50David Senra?

  and then work with just the best, first of all, work with the best possible people and work in the best possible industries and businesses, that will do most of the work for you. And to be able to do that is you have to be kind of ruthless with cutting people that aren't up to your standards out of, like you don't want to do work, you can't work with C players or even B players. So Buffett says, "The real issue is mediocrity. There are too many 240 hitters." So he loves this baseball analogy. If you were a fantastic hitter, you'd be a 400 hitter. That's something he's going to repeat over and over again. But in this case, you have somebody that may even think they're a 400 hitter, but are actually a 240 hitter. So that's what he's talking about. The real issue here is mediocrity. There are too many 240 hitters in business. Businesses often settle for a notch or two above mediocrity. There are strong human instincts at work. And then they also give advice where it's like, listen,

• 19:35David Senra?

  you think you might be able to turn around a business or turn around a person. You're just better off getting into a better opportunity. This is something where I always say it's like actions express priority. It's one of my favorite maxims. People do what they actually want to do. And you can tell what people want to do is like, how do you spend your time? What are your act? It doesn't matter what you tell me. Hey, this is important to me. It's like, just, I can look at what you do. And this is great advice from Buffett. People just do what they want to do. And you're just better off just not trying to change their behavior because only they can do that. So he says, in almost 60 years of investing, we found it practically useless to give advice to anyone. And this is even in situations where you figure, hey, they should have a lot of influence and control here. And he says, listen, Charlie and I have been on boards of companies in which we were among the largest shareholders.

• 20:20David Senra?

  And even then, we had very little luck changing their behavior. So we think that if you buy stock in a company, you better not count on being able to change the course of action. And then they go back into the importance of understanding human behavior. And then they touch a little bit on why so many founders and investors have it like they love history. They like studying history. They find it very useful for their careers. Buffett says, you really should understand human behavior if you're going to run a business. Munger says, once you have the ideas, of course, you must continuously practice. Amen. Something you and I talk about over and over again. Once you have the ideas, of course, you must continuously practice their use. If you don't practice, you can't perform well. A wise man engaged in learning some important skill will not stop until he is really fluent in it. So more on this idea of it's really important if you're going to run a business to understand human nature.

• 21:05David Senra?

  Again, this is, all these ideas, these are not on the same page. So this is how you know it's important to them. Because what's important to people, they will repeat. And so this is, really, it's a story about imitation is the note that I left myself when I read this. But no, what Charlie's about to tell us, he's telling us a story about human nature. That's very fascinating. And if you think about like their bird's eye view that they've had in the like the finance industry, which, you know, it's been full of panics and bubbles and booms and busts, right? This is just absolutely fantastic. So Charlie Munger says, one of my favorite stories is about the little boy in Texas. The teacher asked the class, if there are nine sheep in the pen and one jumps out, how many are left? And everybody got the answer right, except this little boy who said, none of them are left. And the teacher said, you don't understand arithmetic.

• 21:50David Senra?

  And he said, no, teacher, you don't understand sheep. And Buffett adds on to the story by saying, "It always amazes me how high IQ people mindlessly imitate." And then Buffett describes this phenomenon by this idea he calls the three I's. And so he says, "You get what I call the natural progression, the three I's, the innovators, the imitators, and the idiots." So skipping ahead, let's go back to this idea that they repeat over and over again. "Spend a lot of time thinking, reading, formulating your own thoughts, and mute the world." And so Buffett says, "We do not read other people's opinions. We want to think. We want to get the facts and then think." This was such a, like, a mind-blowing realization, because you never know, like,

• 22:33David Senra?

  when you're reading something, when it just is going to suddenly click or like, kind of interact with maybe an idea that was previous in your mind, or you weren't necessarily, like, completely understood how important it was. When I was reading Buffett's shareholder letters, and then obviously, this is like years ago, so this is probably like in 2019, maybe, and listening to Charlie Munger speak, they kept bringing up this guy named Henry Singleton. And I was like, "What the heck is going on here?" You know, in my opinion, Buffett and Munger have studied, the people living and maybe people who have ever lived, they've probably studied more different businesses and more company founders and managers and CEOs than almost anybody else, right? They've been at it since, in Buffett's case, since he was a little kid, and he's been doing almost for 100 years, right? And yet, they kept bringing up Henry Singleton, Henry Singleton. They're like, "Hey, this guy was, Charlie Munger says Henry Singleton was the smartest person he ever met.

• 23:18David Senra?

  Munger said that his returns in business were utterly ridiculous. Buffett said it's literally a crime that business schools don't study this guy." And the reason it's hard to study him is, you actually have to, like, there's not a lot written about him. I've done two episodes on him, but episode 110, there's this book called Distant Force, which is written by Singleton's, like, right-hand guy, and it's really the history of the company Teledyne that they built together. But what was so remarkable, and just made, I don't know why, it just clicked when I started reading about Singleton, is like, how he spent his time. But the point of all this is, like, there's a description in that book that really resonated with me, that you have to do the work necessary to be able to trust your own judgment, or none of this is going to work. And so I'm going to read a quote from Distant Force, this is episode 110. I'm about to reread this and collect all the other information.

• 24:00David Senra?

  In fact, a bunch of listeners actually sent me really valuable information about Singleton, like, old press articles and stuff they found in, like, public libraries and stuff. But I want to read this, because I really think this is exactly what Buffett is saying here. Let me reread Buffett before I get there, right? He's like, "Listen, we don't read other people's opinions. We want to think. We want to get the facts and then think." In many ways... Singleton was Buffett before Buffett, right? So it says, quite often, Henry simply talked about his philosophy of running a corporation and the various financial strategies that he came up with as he sat in his office each day, often working in his Apple II computer. He was a brilliant strategist and he came up with many creative ideas, ideas that were sometimes contrary to the currently accepted methods of managing a large corporation that prevailed in those days.

• 24:45David Senra?

  One of the things that blew my mind was the fact that Henry Singleton was friends with Claude Shannon, the inventor of information theory, a universal genius, one of the rare universal geniuses that the world has seen, right? And Claude Shannon. And Claude Shannon was actually on the board of Teledyne and an advisor. So when Henry would go out and when he was building his conglomerate, trying to buy through acquisitions, he would actually have to be able to tap, imagine being able to like, call up Claude Shannon, be like, hey, what do you think about this new technology? It's just crazy to me. Anyways, this is what Shannon said. Check this out. Shannon is talking about Singleton, observing Singleton, how he works. He says, "He always tries to work out the best moves and maybe he doesn't like to talk too much because when you're playing a game, you don't tell anyone else what your strategy is."

• 25:30David Senra?

  And where did the strategy come from? The same place that Buffett now, in this book that I'm holding in my hand, is saying. Came from him sitting there in his room, thinking. Singleton was obviously extremely well read, just like Buffett as well. Let me go back to Buffett, I'm gonna repeat this for the third time. We do not read other people's opinions. We want to think. We want to get the facts and then think. Now, we're many pages deep in the book and they go back to this theme. Default to no, keep an open calendar so you can actually think. The difference between successful people and very successful people is that very successful people say no to almost everything. Munger, that was Buffett. Munger says, "Both Warren and I have amazingly open calendar and we're very reluctant to put new commitments in there. I like flexibility and it has worked for me." And so Buffett takes this so seriously that, you know, at this, at the point they're talking

• 26:14David Senra?

  about this, I think he owned like 80 different businesses. And so he would actually, every few like years, he would write the managers of his business a letter. And it's all about the fact that Buffett ruthlessly guards his time. This is what the letter says. Please turn down, this is Buffett writing, right? This is to all of the CEOs and the managers of all the subsidiaries in Berkshire. Please turn down all the proposals for me to speak, make contributions, et cetera. Sometimes these requests for you to act as an intermediary will be accompanied by, oh, it can't hurt to ask. It will be easier for both of us if you just say no. And he means no right away. As an added favor, don't suggest that they instead write or call me.

• 26:58David Senra?

  Multiply 80 or so businesses by the periodic, oh, I think he'll be interested in this one, and you can understand why it's better to just say no firmly and immediately. And then they touch on a main theme in the history of entrepreneurship, the importance of frugality, guarding the resources that you have, not spending foolishly, no matter how much money you have. Charlie and I have always been big fans of living within your income, and if you do that, you'll have a whole lot more income later on. Munger says, if you want to get rich, you've got to underspend your income. You've got to intelligently invest the money that you haven't spent. The money will work for you for a longer period of time. You have to save. And so I actually found, I'm going to reread his biography, and I got another book on him too.

• 27:39David Senra?

  I actually found this guy because Buffett, it's another entrepreneur that Buffett and Munger talk about from history. It's this guy named James J. Hill. And I covered him all the way back on episode number 96. And he's one of the, maybe the greatest railroad builder in history. And there's something that he talks about, and he would repeat in his work, you know, this is 1800s, probably, let's see, mid to late 1800s when he says this. And he said, if you want to know whether you are destined to be a success or failure in life, you can easily find out. The test is simple and it's invaluable. Are you able to save money? If not, drop out. You will lose, you may think not, but you will lose as sure as you live. The seed of success is not in you. So then they spent some time talking about the dangers of debt.

• 28:23David Senra?

  That debt is a, is an easy way, a common way for really rich people to go broke. Munger says, "Smart men go broke in three ways: liquor, ladies, and leverage." Buffett says, "Whenever a bright and rich person goes broke, it's usually because of leverage." "Any series of positive numbers, however impressive the numbers may be, evaporate, evaporates when multiplied by a single zero." "History tells us that leverage all too often produces zeros, even when it's employed by very smart people." One of the things you will find, this is still Buffett talking, one of the things you will find, which is interesting, and people don't think of enough, with most businesses and with most individuals, life tends to snap you at your weakest link.

• 29:04David Senra?

  You can have somebody whose aggregate performance is terrific, but if they have a weakness, maybe it's with alcohol, maybe it's susceptibility to taking a little easy money, it's the weak link that snaps you. And frequently, in the financial markets, the weak link is borrowed money. And so the other side of the coin of this idea is like, hey, they, they tell you over and over again, you've got to be real careful with debt, be real careful with leverage. They will preach the fact that you should try, your business should have mountains and mountains of cash. Cash is a lot like oxygen. You don't notice it 99% of the time, but when it's absent, it's the only thing that you notice. "We have maximum financial flexibility to face both hazards and opportunities."

• 29:44David Senra?

  Buffett says, "We keep our, our cash largely in US Treasury bills and avoid other short-term securities yielding a few more basis points." Somebody sent me, and this is not my world, so I don't know, but somebody said that they, right now, they have 100 billion in cash earning 4% risk-free. "We agree with investment writer Ray DeVoe's observation. More money has been lost reaching for yield than at the point of a gun." And why do they say that? Because cash ensures your survival, something you and I talk about over and over again. You have to stay in the game long enough to get lucky. Buffett says, "It pays to conduct your affairs so that no matter how foolish other people get, you're still around to play the game the next day." Munger says, "I am not a victim, I am a survivor." And then they start giving advice on just interpersonal relationships.

• 30:28David Senra?

  You're going to like, people, you're going to deal with bad people throughout your life. It's inevitable, but how, you can't control what they do, other than you can avoid them, obviously, but you can control your reactions. And so then Buffett... In the middle of this, he talks about, hey, this is some of the best advice I ever got in my life. And so he says, 40 years ago, Tom Murphy, who was the former CEO of Cap Cities and ABC, gave me one of the best pieces of advice I've ever received. He said, Warren, you can always tell someone to go to hell tomorrow. You haven't missed the opportunity. Just forget about it for a day. If you feel the same way tomorrow, then you could tell them, but don't spout off in a moment of anger. And then this is one of the most important fundamental insights into human nature that I've learned personally from Charlie Munger. And he's like, listen, everybody thinks that the world is driven by greed,

• 31:11David Senra?

  but it's, the world is not driven by greed. It's driven by envy. And your life will be a lot better if you can just eliminate envy from your life. And so Charlie says, I've heard Warren say half a dozen, and I guess he learned this from Warren. I've learned, I've heard Warren say half a dozen times, it's not greed that drives the world, but envy. Buffett says, our experience is that envy is what really drives people. You can give someone a $2 million bonus and they're happy until they see the next guy got 2.1 million and then they're miserable. And Munger illustrates why this is so ridiculous. If you're comfortably rich and someone else is getting richer faster than you, so what? Someone will always be getting richer faster than you. This is not a tragedy. Someone else is always going to be doing better at any human activity you can name.

• 31:56David Senra?

  Then we go back to this idea, something that I believe with my whole heart, that time is the best filter. Buffett says Gianni Anginelli, maybe? Is the former chairman of the car company Fiat. So it says, Gianni once told me, one time told me, when you get older, you'll have the reputation that you deserve. You can fool some people some of the time, but not forever. I believe the same is true for companies. And now, when I read that, that's probably like, what? The third or fourth time? I think the fourth time I've read that particular highlight, something else just jumped at me. Where he says, hey, you know, with time, you can't fool people. You can fool people some of the time, but not forever. Over time, you're going to have the personal reputation that you deserve and your company will have the reputation you deserve. Buffett says something in this book that's fantastic, where he describes what an actual brand is.

• 32:41David Senra?

  And he says, "A brand is a promise." So I'm not sure why, but when I reread that section just now, that's the idea that jumped, that popped in my mind. And so then Charlie adds to this, "The best way to get a reputation for yourself and your business is to actually work backwards." He is going to quote Sol Price. So Sol Price, Buffett and Munger are both fans of Sol Price. I did an episode on him. It's episode 107. I would make the argument that Sol Price is the most influential retailer to ever live. Sam Walton, Trader Joe, Jim Sinigal, Bernie Marcus from Home Depot, Jeff Bezos. They all used ideas in their business, variations of Sol Price's ideas in their business. And so we have Munger talking about like, okay, well, you should decide what kind of business that you do not want. Right?

• 33:25David Senra?

  So he says, "Sol Price used to say, 'Success in business came from deciding which business you could intelligently do without.'" He had a list of businesses that he did not want. He didn't want business from people who wrote bad checks. He didn't want business of people who clogged up his parking lot without buying very much. He carefully invented a system. He's the one that came up with the idea, like, everybody knows Costco? That Costco idea is Sol Price's idea. It was just actually brought to life by Jim Sinigal, which is Sol Price's mentee. Jim, when he was real young, actually worked for Sol Price. He greatly admired him. In fact, the autobiography, excuse me, the biography of Sol Price that I read for episode 107, Jim Sinigal wrote the foreword or the introduction of that book. And he says, like, when people would interview him, it's like, "Oh, you knew Sol for 50 years before he died. You must have learned a lot from him."

• 34:10David Senra?

  He's like, "No, no, I didn't learn a lot. I learned everything, everything from him." So that's what Charlie's talking about. He's like, "Well, he just designed a business. You know, how many businesses do you have to pay a membership fee to shop at? Like, that's extremely rare, but why is he, or unusual? Why is he doing that? Because he's designing, he's getting to the business he wants by avoiding the things he does not want. And that membership fee, that barrier to entry eliminates a lot of things that Charlie's talking about here." He didn't want business of people who clogged up his parking lot without buying very much. He carefully invented a system where he kept those people out and succeeded by deciding what he would be better off without and avoiding it. This is a very good way to think, and it is not common. And so then Buffett goes into something that he repeats over and over again.

• 34:55David Senra?

  In fact, one of the best gifts I've ever gotten is for Father's Day, my wife got me this mug. And it says like, "The Wisdom of Warren Buffett." And all it is, is Warren's face with a bunch of quotes that he said. And all I do is like, fill up this cup multiple times a day with espresso and then read, right? And one of my favorite things is because it's like, these ideas are in a book and they're in the podcast. And yet, this like, physical item brings that out and it's like, serves as like, a reminder every day. And on, one of the things that he says on this, this coffee mug is, "The best thing I did was to choose the right heroes." This is something that him and Munger repeat over and over again. I'm going to read this section real quick and then tell you something Munger also says. "I think it's very important to have the right heroes.

• 35:39David Senra?

  Choose your heroes carefully and then figure out what it is about them that you admire. Then you figure out how to do the same thing. It is not impossible." And then, I've actually seen clips from Warren saying this at the shareholder meeting. And then Charlie adds, "You also should not relegate your selection of heroes to the living." That the eminent dead, obviously a main theme of this podcast, right? The eminent dead provide some of the best models around. And then they have some more advice for our career, for our work, that you really should try to maneuver yourself. Get yourself in a position where you can do work that you have an intense interest in. If you listen to my three-part series about Paul Graham's essays, 275, episode 275, 76 and 277. This is a main theme of his writing as well.

• 36:23David Senra?

  The big thing you want to do is, you want to enjoy every day. So you want to have a job that you love and you want to work with people that you like, admire and trust. Munger says, "In my whole life, I have never been good at something I wasn't very interested in. It just doesn't work. There is no substitute for strong interest." They also talk about a very common mistake that smart people make, that successful people make is because they were successful in one domain, that they connect, that knowledge actually transfers to other domains. The best example of this is like, I always say, you know, Henry Ford's one of the, his, Henry Ford's one of the entrepreneurs I most admire professionally, not personally. And I really like his philosophy of company building. But you see this illustration if you read about Henry Ford. Like, he was a master at building the Ford Motor Company.

• 37:07David Senra?

  But then he, he thought like, he could- Control like the morals of his, like his employees. He thought he could like, he could figure out a way to stop World War I from happening. He had all these things where he failed spectacularly at, where he thought, okay, well, I have some kind of knowledge I derived from my business and it's applicable to this domain. And it definitely wasn't. Buffett says, for us to think that because we made a lot of money, we're going to be better at giving advice on every subject, well, that just doesn't make sense. That's crazy. I'm very suspect, suspect of the person who is very good at one business, who starts thinking they should tell the world how to behave on everything. They start repeating this idea. You really should try to be seeking out and working with and associating only with first class people. Munger says, our basic rule has, has always been that we do not deal with assholes.

• 37:50David Senra?

  I have turned down business deals that were otherwise decent deals because I didn't like the people that I'd have to work with. You have to, you want to avoid other people who are total rat poison, and there are a lot of them. You want to associate with first class people. Then they go back into the more, most important asset. One of the most important assets in running a business is passion. That is very interesting. Let's say that you want, they're asked a hypothetical question by a fictitious character in this book. So that question says, let's say I want to hire somebody. What is important to think about? Buffett says, you look for the logical things. Passion, an interest in running the business. Honestly, or honesty, excuse me. Do they love the business or do they love the money? This is the first filter. Do they love the business or do they love the money? This is the first filter.

• 38:35David Senra?

  I mean, real passion. If temperament is the most important personal asset in managing money, in business, it's passion. This is also why Jeff Bezos says that missionaries make the best products. Missionaries, not mercenaries. He says mercenaries are in it just for the money. Missionaries actually care about what the business is doing. What service is that business giving to the world? You want to try to hire people that are complete in alignment with you and look at it like you do, like it's a mission. They also spend a lot of time talking about company culture. The fact that you have to be very intentional, how you build the culture at your business, that once the culture is in place, it is nearly impossible. You're better off just starting a different company than trying to change the culture. So it says, "We try to provide an environment for them," meaning the managers and CEOs

• 39:18David Senra?

  of their businesses, "which is exactly like we'd want if we were running a business. We would like to run our own business in our own way." So they're like, "Hey, we try not to mess with them, right? We're only working with A players. A players don't like to be micromanaged. And if I had to micromanage them, why did I buy the business to begin with? That doesn't make any sense." "We will never allow Berkshire to become some monolith that is overrun with committees, budget presentations, and multiple layers of management. Instead, we plan to operate as a collection of separately managed, medium-sized, and large businesses, most of whose decision-making occurs at the operating level. All of the businesses that we own are run autonomously to an extraordinary degree. In most cases, the managers of important businesses we have owned for many years have not been to Omaha or even met each other.

• 40:03David Senra?

  We adapt to their methods rather than vice versa." So then Buffett talks about like his own strategy. Like what is Buffett's thing? Like what is his competitive advantage, right? He is trying to be a, like, not trying to be, he does this. He's a buyer of businesses. I would argue that Buffett's shareholder letters is the greatest single example of content marketing that the world has ever seen. I talk about this more on episode 227, which is the essays of Warren Buffett, where it talks about, like, he publishes a letter that he shows, like, he was interested in buying this person's business. He actually publishes the letter that he sent the buyer, the person, the owner of the business. I feel it's like a masterclass in product differentiation. And so he touches on how he thinks about this and how he positions himself.

• 40:47David Senra?

  And so he says, "Our long-avowed goal is to be the buyer of choice for businesses, particularly those built and owned by families. The way to achieve this goal is to deserve it. That means we must keep our promises, avoid leveraging up acquired businesses, grant unusual autonomy to our managers, and hold the purchased companies through thick and thin. Our record matches our rhetoric." Most buyers competing against us follow a different path. For them, acquisitions are merchandise. We have a decided advantage when we encounter sellers who truly care about the future of their businesses. If you truly care about your business and the future of it, it's not a merchandise to you. It's not just a big, you know, a big exit. It's like you actually care.

• 41:30David Senra?

  Like if you are going to sell your business, like you care what happens, what happens after you leave the business. And so Buffett's like, well, if you're one of those people, of course. But Berkshire would be, if you look at our track record, Berkshire would be your first choice. So he says, "The reverse is apt to be true also. When an owner auctions off his business exhibiting a total lack of interest in what follows, you will frequently find that it has been dressed up for sale." And therefore, what Buffett's saying, it's not a high quality. Like if somebody truly cares, most likely they truly, they built a, like a wonderful business. Somebody's just in it to start, scale and sell. They probably don't give a shit. And so therefore, the long-term prospects of a business like that are very suspect. And Buffett's not interested in buying those kind of businesses.

• 42:12David Senra?

  There is a great line in the Anthony Bourdain biography that I read for episode 219 that jumps out at this next, when I read this next sentence. It says, "Life isn't a green room for something else. Go for it." Buffett says, "We're here on the earth only one time. So you ought to be doing something that you enjoy as you go along and you can be enthusiastic about." Then we have two great quotes. The first one is from Buffett. "When a problem exists, whether it's in personnel or in business operations, the time to act is now." Munger says, "Wise people step on big and growing troubles early." There are several times in the book that Munger talks about his ability to make decisions very rapidly. We heard Buffett say earlier that Munger has the best 30-second mind that he's ever encountered.

• 42:54David Senra?

  And so into this point, it's like they have an idea of the businesses that they're interested in. They're in their mind, the characteristics of the stuff they're interested in. So even like he'll get a phone call and within like 15 seconds, they're like, nope. And he'll just like hang up the phone. He's like, there's no point, I know I don't want this business. There's no point us, like we have limited time on this earth. Like I'm not going to waste, sit here and just be polite for 15 minutes just to give you a no that I can give you a no in 30 seconds. And so Munger says, "Spend no time arguing with people whose idea you know to be stupid." I think a main theme that comes up again and again, these life stories that you and I go over is the fact that future opportunities are unpredictable to you. You just have to trust in something. Obviously, do as good a job as you can with whatever's in front of you. But if you keep going along and you keep getting better, that's going to unlock opportunities you can't possibly predict.

• 43:39David Senra?

  And I feel like there's a current running through the thinking of Buffett and Munger that talks about this. It's like, listen, we're not really big into master plans. We know we want to own wonderful businesses. We know we want to own pieces of wonderful business in public markets. But essentially, instead of going deep in this inflexible master plan, we're just going to keep reacting to the game that's on the field. And so Munger says, "I have a deep distrust in master planning. There has never been a master plan. Anyone who wanted to do a master plan, we fired because it takes on a life of its own and doesn't cover the new reality." Buffett says, "We do have a few advantages, perhaps the greatest being that we don't have a strategic plan. Thus, we feel no need to proceed in an ordained direction, but can instead simply decide what makes sense for our owners. Charlie and I don't sit around and talk about the future of industries.

• 44:24David Senra?

  We have no reports or staff. We just review what comes in and look for companies with a durable competitive advantage at an attractive price." And so think about that. That is a rather simple plan. We're just going to review what comes in. We constantly get people offering to sell. We have inbound requests to buy their businesses. We just review it. Is this a company with a durable competitive advantage and attractive price? If it is, okay, we'll buy it. And if it isn't, we'll just sit on our ass and we'll read and we'll think and we'll pile up money. It's really hard to lose. That's the two different modes that you have in your business, right? This goes back into the futility of trying to change other people's minds. Better to just select different people to work with, that people just do what they want to do.

• 45:08David Senra?

  And Buffett says, "I'd say that the history that Charlie and I have of persuading decent, intelligent people who we thought were doing unintelligent things to change their course of action has been poor. When people want to do something, they want to do something. We don't try to change people. It doesn't work well. We accept people the way they are." And then Charlie passes on a bit of wisdom that he thought was very valuable in running a business. It's from this guy named Carl Braun, who was an engineer and an entrepreneur. And it says, "Few practices are wiser than not only thinking through reasons before giving orders, so orders to people in your company, but also communicating these reasons to the recipient of that order. No one knew this better than Carl Braun, who designed oil refineries with spectacular skill and integrity. He had a very simple

• 45:52David Senra?

  rule. You had to tell who was to do what, where, when, and why. If you wrote a communication leaving off your explanation of why the addressee was to do what was ordered, Braun was likely to fire you." Because Braun knew, well, Braun well knew that ideas got through best when reasons for the ideas were meticulously laid out. People have to know why is what Charlie's telling us. Or even simpler way to think about it is always tell the other person why. Charlie just told us that you spend no time arguing with people whose idea you know to be stupid. There's another great line in this regard. You do not have to attend every argument that you're invited to. So then they talk about Charlie's orangutan theory, which I absolutely love. The first time I was introduced to this theory is actually,

• 46:36David Senra?

  I read the autobiography of Katherine Graham. It was obviously, uh, episode 152. And she talked about that, um, in her case, the way Warren Buffett was helping her learn how to run her business, and that she, she thought that Warren was her version of the orangutan. And so Munger's orangutan theory is this, if a smart person goes into a room with an orangutan and explains whatever his or her idea is, the orangutan just sits there eating his banana. And at the end of the conversation, the person explaining comes out smarter. There's something about smart people explaining ideas to an orangutan that makes their decision making better. And it's this idea that you're just speaking this, it actually forces you to organize your thought. It clarifies your thinking.

• 47:18David Senra?

  It's very helpful. Remember at the beginning of the book, they said, uh, repetition is the mother of learning. Charlie Munger goes back to this idea that it's so hard to get rich, and yet most likely when you get rich, you're going to mess it up. Just don't mess it up. The problem is not getting rich, Munger says. It is staying sane. For whatever reason, extreme success war is tends to warp people's minds. They cannot handle it. And then I absolutely love this section because it talks about like, you know, we talk about this like, history doesn't repeat, human nature does, that there's ideas in history books that are worth, you know, billions of dollars. I'm about to read you something, right? That sounds like Warren Buffett said it today. We just went from this zero interest rate environment.

• 48:02David Senra?

  Rates are going up, valuations are, you know, being in flux. And yet, what I'm about to read you, he said in 1994. I just had a weird experience where, you know, I share a lot of like highlights and stuff from books I read on Twitter and on LinkedIn. I tweeted this out and Elon Musk responded back to it, basically agreeing with what Buffett said, again, in 1994 from this book, but is just as accurate as today. Buffett says, "The value of every business, the value of a farm, an apartment, or any other economic asset is 100% sensitive to interest rates. That's because all you're doing when you're investing is transferring money to someone now in exchange for a stream of money, which you expect to come back in the future.

• 48:44David Senra?

  And the higher the interest rates are, the less that present value will be. Interest rates are to asset prices, sort of like gravity is to an apple. When interest rates are low, there is little gravitational pull on asset prices." This is a crazy sentence, right? And I wish, I didn't understand this, you know, maybe I wasn't like something that was relatively important to like my business, right? But it's just amazing where I just wish I understood. I wish I understood this before now. Because if you understood this in 1994 and you knew that this entire time, you could have profited heavily off of this transition back and forth between high interest rates to low interest rates and now from low interest rates to highest, higher interest rates. So that's like, this is like ideas really will put money in your wallet. It's a way to think about it.

• 49:29David Senra?

  So I'm going to repeat this second paragraph because I interrupted it. But this is very fascinating and I'll tell you the punchline at the very end. "Interest rates are to asset prices, sort of like gravity is to apple. When interest rates are low, there is little gravitational pull on asset prices." This is the punchline. "Interest rates power everything in the economic universe."

• 49:46David Senra?

  Another thing they repeat is the importance, always go for quality. Wonderful businesses are so rare. So if you get into a wonderful business, do not leave it. It is just a rare thing to happen. If you are in a wonderful business for a long time, even if you pay a little bit too much going in, getting into the business, you will get a wonderful result if you stay in that business for a long time. Buffett talks about early in his career, he did not really understood the power of brands. It's like this weird abstraction, right? It came from his purchase of Seize Candy many, many years ago. He's like, oh, brands are extremely valuable. They're extremely powerful and valuable. And so this leads to other investments, profitable investments in the future. And so he says additionally, through watching Seize Candy in action, I gained a business education about the value of powerful brands that opened my eyes

• 50:31David Senra?

  to many other profitable investments. And this is example of why I think Buffett's one of the world's greatest communicators that has ever lived, because he can communicate things that are relatively complex, make them simple, uses humor, talks to us in stories. But this was really interesting. I don't think I've heard this before anywhere in any other book too. And he talks about like, there is sometimes, you can be inexact and there's just times when further analysis is actually a waste of time. And it sounds crazy because of the giant numbers that he is throwing out here in this investment. But he'll tell the story and I think it'll make sense to you at the end. With something like Petro China, my reaction is similar to seeing somebody who weighs somewhere between 300 and 350 pounds.

• 51:15David Senra?

  I might not know how much they weigh, but I know that they're fat. And that's all I'm looking for, knowing if an opportunity is financially fat. And whether Petro China weighed $95 billion or $105 billion, she's talking about the true valuation of it. If it's 95 or 105, right? It did not make much difference. Why didn't it make much difference? Because at the time, it was selling for $35 billion. Any further refining of analysis would have been a waste of time. In that case, he's saying, just jump on it. You know it's a good opportunity, it doesn't matter. You're paying 35 billion, whereas with 95 or 105, it doesn't matter. It is a financially fat opportunity. So we were very inexact. You'd be amazed at how inexact we are. Using precise numbers is in fact foolish.

• 51:59David Senra?

  Working with a range of possibilities is the better approach.

• 52:04David Senra?

  Now, this, this is one of my favorite. This is where it just clicked for me, right? Um, we're in the middle. Well, you can't see this because you can't see the book that I'm holding. We're in the middle of the book where at this part, they're all talking about like the, uh, like the irrational behavior that occurs in bull markets. And that just happens over and over again, right? And I'll, I'll pull out a couple of quotes because I think that's very interesting. I think you and I can learn from that. And yet what sticks out the most to me clicked is I'm going to read this first and I have no idea why. I finally like had a deeper understanding of this. So Bubba says, Charlie and I do not expect to win you over to our way of thinking. We've observed enough human behavior to know the futility of that. But we do want you to be aware of our personal calculus.

• 52:48David Senra?

  And I was like, oh my God, sometimes I read, uh, and you probably do this too. We're like, you know, that's two sentences, you know, three, three lines in a book. And yet you just sit there and you stare at it and like you read it again. And then you like really think about what the hell he's talking about. And I was like, okay, that is actually really interesting. Charlie and I don't expect to win you over to our way of thinking. We've observed enough human behavior to know the futility of that. But we do want you to be aware of our personal calculus. What I wrote to myself in this click to me. Learning is not memorizing information. Learning is changing your behavior. There is no point for you and I to spend all this time reading, listening to educational podcasts. If it doesn't change what we do.

• 53:31David Senra?

  And if it doesn't change what we do, we didn't actually learn it. He's telling you, we've seen enough human behavior. You're not going to actually do anything with this information that we're giving you. Very few people, he's obviously some, some people were. And so that's what they talk about, like most people, they don't say all people, but they're saying most people cannot learn from the experiences of other people. They're saying the exact same thing here, that we've seen enough human behavior. We could tell you not to do this. A lot of people are going to do it. The smart ones, the ones that are able to learn from other people's behavior are going to have a massive advantage because they know that learning is not memorizing information. Learning is changing your behavior. That's amazing. Like, I love that. Whatever clicked right there is super important for me and hopefully for you as well. It's not memorizing information.

• 54:13David Senra?

  Did the book that I read, the podcast I listened to, did it change my behavior? Did it actually have an effect in the real world? Oh, okay. So then they go into like this irrational behavior that you see in bull markets. The sheep story that he told earlier is like a good indication of that. And he's got funny ways. Buffett's got a funny way of reminding you about this, like when you should feel that you're in danger. Because it says like, the problem is, it looks so easy. So that's what attracts you to it. And so he says, but remember the late Barton Briggs' observation. A bull market is like sex. It feels best just before it ends. And so Munger says, how do you take advantage of that? If you stay rational yourself, the stupidity of the world helps you. Wall Street never changes.

• 54:56David Senra?

  The pockets change, the suckers change, the stock change. But Wall Street never changes because human nature never changes. Then it goes back to this idea of, they don't have a master plan. They are opportunity driven. That's a great way, that's like a great use of language by them. Really gets this idea into our brains. We don't have a master theory of capital allocation, or excuse me, of asset allocation. We're simply opportunity driven. Individual opportunity driven. Our acquisition technique at Berkshire is simplicity itself. We answer the phone. Something I love about doing the podcast is getting to read these stories, this idea where multiple people that we cover have figured out the idea of having, the value of having a personal motto, right?

• 55:38David Senra?

  So Stan Lee, the founder of Marvel, had like, I can't even pronounce it, but it means like ever upward. Shackleton says, by endurance we conquer. One of my favorites is actually Teddy Roosevelt. And he says, get action. It was actually a personal motto of his father that he adopted for his own life. Very similar to what Munger's saying here. Do not be too timid. Go at life with a little courage.

• 56:01David Senra?

  So in the past few episodes, and really, I mean, this is a main theme throughout Founders, but it has been especially pronounced in, actually, it's episode 283 of Andrew Carnegie and 284 of Andrew Carnegie and Henry Clay Frick. And now that I'm looking at all the episodes, actually 282 of Jeff Bezos talks about this quite a bit. And his shareholder letters too. And there's two twin themes that run throughout the history of entrepreneurship that I think are most pronounced in the books and I observe less frequently in like modern day, meaning they're obviously very valuable because they're very hard for people to do. And that's this idea of extreme focus and extreme fugality. I love what Buffett does here. And so he's talking about the fact that If you really think about it, like two different founders, two different business managers.

• 56:42David Senra?

  One is unbelievably gifted at cost-conscious, frugal culture. They're watching their costs over and over again. And one is not like they're not, even if they're in the same industry. They're completely different businesses. This is really interesting use of language here. So he says, "One of the best moats in many respects is to be a low-cost producer. Being a low-cost producer is something that's essential to people is going to be a very good business. It is like comparing a copper producer whose costs are $2.50 a pound with a copper producer whose costs are a dollar a pound." This next sentence is crazy to, would be crazy to most people. I don't think it's gonna be crazy to you and I. Those are two different kinds of businesses. But you're like, "No, wait, they're both producing copper." And his like, and Buffett's point is like, "No, this advantage means it's just completely another business."

• 57:27David Senra?

  Why? One is gonna go broke at $1.50 a pound and the other one is going to still be doing fine. This idea that they're, they're completely different businesses. Regardless, same product, same industry, doesn't matter. They're completely different, just the way they're managed. So let's go back to something that's above this. Why does the business have an edge against its competitors? You're asking yourself questions, right? Ask, "Why can't company A do what company B does? What stops some competitor from entering the market?" And so Buffett's answer to this hypothetical question is, "The best way to understand this," meaning, "Why does that company have an edge? Whether it's a company you're running yourself or a company you want to invest in. Why do they have an edge? The best way to understand this is to study businesses that have achieved it."

• 58:10David Senra?

  The question then is, "How does a company get its edge?" And the way companies talks about building up the moat. And it's this idea of focus and frugality leads into his copper story. The moat is not the product, in this case, the moat is not the product, the moat is not the industry. The moat is the management of the business in regards to its costs. This is a very old idea. This is something Buffett is saying in 2009. And yet it's something that Andrew Carnegie knew in 1865.

• 58:37David Senra?

  And then this is what I mentioned earlier, my favorite definition of a brand I think I've ever read, "A brand is a promise," that is a quote from Warren Buffett. Then he goes into the important part Buffett's gonna talk a lot about here is just like, you know, business can be fundamentally simple. It's you should be really obsessing over your customers. This is, you know, one of my favorite maxims in the history of entrepreneurship comes from Jeff Bezos. He says, "Obsess over customers. I don't have any tattoos, but if I did, I almost feel like it'd be beneficial if I like tattooed this on my forearm. Just obsess over customers." There's just so much hard-earned knowledge in those three words. Buffett is going to agree with Bezos here, and he says, "In the end, nobody that's ever taken good care of the customer has ever lost. Like Sam Walton once said, 'There's only one boss, the customer, and he or she can fire

• 59:22David Senra?

  everybody in the company from the chairman down, on down, simply by spending his or her money elsewhere.'" And a few pages later, look how this actually ties together, right? These two quotes I'm reading, the ones I just read and this one are separated by maybe 20 pages or something. This is crazy. Warren Buffett said this about Amazon in 2012. And he says, "Amazon could affect a lot of businesses who don't think they will be affected. For Amazon, it is very hard to find unhappy customers. A business that has millions and millions of happy customers can introduce them to new items. It will be a powerhouse and could affect a lot of businesses." And this is where you really get excited, right?

• 1:00:04David Senra?

  When you think about this, okay, Warren identified that, sees, oh, this is very unusual. Says that in 2012. That is after, because Jeff is writing, you know, in the late 90s, I think 97 is his first, is his first shareholder letter. It's 15 years separating from the first shareholder letter. You know, he'd been practicing that in the few years that he'd been running Amazon before that, but this idea is like, that is the end result of what, what Bezos set out from day one. He's like, "No, we're gonna obsess over customers. We're gonna build the world's most customer-centric company." 15, 20 years later, and you're seeing Buffett's like, "Oh, this is, this dude's gonna be a problem." And he's going to be a problem for other businesses because he's got millions of happy and satisfied customers. And how do you get millions of happy and satisfied customers?

• 1:00:47David Senra?

  You build the world's most customer-centric company and you obsess over customers. This is, how could that not excite you? I love when I see these ideas, they just stick together. And what makes me, or they fit together, rather. And what makes me even more excited is like you have another genius, you've got two geniuses there. You've got another genius realizing, oh, what this other genius is doing is genius. All we have to do, I'm not a genius, all I have to do, all you have to do is just copy them. Like, hey, that's a good idea. Thank you very much. I'm going to apply it to my business. This is not rocket science. And it gets even better because on the next page, Munger gives us a tactic. It's like, oh, you like that idea? Here's how you actually implement it. One of the directors of the Daily Journal said very simply, "We should make a list of everything that irritates our customers and then we should eliminate those defects one by one."

• 1:01:32David Senra?

  Then I love this idea by Buffett, like this is how you find the best operator in your industry. When I interview managers, I ask what their business nightmare is. If you had a silver bullet and you could put it through the head of one competitor, which competitor and why? You will find out who the best, asking this question, you will find out who the best guy in the industry is. He continues, "Ask the management of each company which competitor they would be willing to..." This is the other side of that, right? It's like, okay, if you could knock out of the game only one of your competitors, who that is? The other side is, what if you had to bet all of your net worth and you could, like, you invested all your net worth in one of your competitors, who is that? "Ask the management of each company which competitor they would be willing to put their net worth in for the next 10 years. Then ask which of their competitors they were short. This will provide important insights into the industry, into your industry, that even

• 1:02:16David Senra?

  those who work their whole life in the industry would not realize." Two pieces of advice, one from Munger, one from Buffett. This is something you and I talk about all the time. If you go to sleep on a win, you wake up with a loss. Charlie Munger says, "Successful places tend to get bloated." He's talking about successful companies. "Successful companies tend to get bloated, fat, complacent. It's the nature of human life. Most companies, when they get rich, get sloppy." Warren Buffett, this is one way to avoid that. "Widen your moat. Build an enduring competitive advantage. Delight your customers and relentlessly fight costs." And Munger and Buffett both know this because they have this, this crazy, like, historical base of knowledge and history of business. Munger says, "It is the nature of things that most big businesses eventually fall into mediocrity or worse.

• 1:03:00David Senra?

  Look at the history of big companies in the world and the record is not good. Almost all great records eventually dwindle. I think that's the natural consequence of competitive life." And then Munger talks about one of the fiercest competitors that the business landscape has ever seen, something somebody you and I have talked about over and over again. The latest episode I did on him, which will not be the last, is episode 234, Sam Walton. I've never heard this before and it's absolutely fantastic. It is Charlie Munger's Northern Pike model. And his point is, if you're running up against somebody like this, you should just get out of the business. He says, "One of the models in my head is the Northern Pike model. You have a lake full of trout, but if you throw in a few Northern Pike, pretty soon there aren't many trout left, but there are a lot of Northern Pike.

• 1:03:45David Senra?

  Walmart, in its early days, was the Northern Pike. It figured out how the customer could be better served and just galloped through the world like Genghis Khan." So there's a few ideas here. This is on passion, intense interest, and working only with winners. This is another, this is one of my favorite of his, this is probably my favorite of Buffett's business, uh, baseball stories when it regards to business. First, Munger says, "I cannot put passion into someone. They either have it or they don't. There's nothing you can do about it." And Buffett goes in the importance of working with winners. "My managerial model is Eddie Bennett." So he's talking about this is, I'm just gonna copy Eddie Bennett, who was a bat boy, his idea for how I run Berkshire. This metaphor is fantastic. "My managerial model is Eddie Bennett, who was a bat boy.

• 1:04:29David Senra?

  In 1919, Eddie began his work with the Chicago White Sox, who that year went to the World Series. The next year, he switched to the Brooklyn Dodgers and they won their league title. However, our heroes," meaning Eddie, "smelled trouble. He changed boroughs and joined the New York Yankees in 1921, and they promptly won their first title in history. Now Eddie settled in, shrewdly seeing what was coming. In the next seven years, the Yankees won five American League titles. What does this have to do with management? It is simple. To be a winner, work with winners. In 1927, Eddie received $700 for his share of the World Series winnings."

• 1:05:12David Senra?

  This sum, which Eddie earned by working only four days, because New York swept the series, was roughly equal to the full year pay then earned by bat boys who worked with ordinary associates. So just what he made from working four days in the World Series is what a person with his same job would make all year because they were working with ordinary players, right? Eddie understood that how he lugged bats was unimportant. What counted instead was hooking up with the cream of those on the playing field. I've learned this from Eddie. At Berkshire, I regularly hand bats to many of the heaviest hitters in American business. And then just one more thing from Buffett on passion. He says, "Passion adds to your productivity."

• 1:05:57David Senra?

  Munger says, "The secret to being successful in any field is getting very interested in it. I could never excel in anything which I didn't have an intense interest." Now, these next two pages are so good. It's essentially saying, "Unusual records are a result of high levels of talent in low-competition environments." Buffett says, "I don't want to play a game where the other guy has an advantage. Somebody asked, 'How do you beat Bobby Fischer?'" The answer was, "You play him in any game except chess." He continues, "One of the best moats in many respects is sometimes just having more talent." And then once you have the talent, he says, "You want to work where there is little competition." "One of the secrets of life is weak competition. The unusual records have been achieved

• 1:06:41David Senra?

  by those who have worked relatively neglected fields in which the competition was light." Munger now jumps in. "Competence is a relative concept. I realized what I needed to get ahead was to compete against idiots. And luckily for me, there was a large supply of idiots." And then I love how much Charlie Munger talks about the importance of practice in this book. This is something, obviously, that really stuck in my mind from reading the biography of Michael Jordan on episode 212. So Munger says, "Obviously, if you want to get good at something which is competitive, you have to think about it and you have to practice a lot. You have to keep learning because the world keeps changing and your competitors keep learning. You have to go to bed wiser than when you got up. As you try to master what you're trying to do,

• 1:07:24David Senra?

  people who do that almost never fail utterly. Very few have ever failed with that approach, meaning just trying to be a little wiser every day, right? Very few have ever failed with that approach. You may rise slowly, but you're sure to rise." And so then they go back to this and they go on this for quite a while. The idea is like, we're not listening to the opinions and the predictions of other people. That is just absolutely useless. Forming macro opinions or listening to the macro or market predictions of others is a waste of time. It is dangerous because it may blur your vision to the facts that are truly important. I pay no attention to economic forecasting. I worry about being in a good business with good people. That is all I focus on. This is Buffett, speaking about this entire time. "In the 54 years that we have worked together, we have never forgotten attractive purchase because

• 1:08:07David Senra?

  of the macro or political environment or the views of other people," then Munger says. People have always, he's talking about like the futility of trying to predict the future and forecasting. "People have always had this craving to have someone tell them the future. Long ago, kings would hire people to read sheep guts. There's always been a market for people who pretend to know the future. Listening to today's forecasters is just as crazy as when the king hired the guy to look at the sheep guts. It just happens over and over and over again." And this is an absolutely fantastic line, still about forecasters. And it says, this is Buffett, "Market forecasters will fill your ear, but they will never fill your wallet." And then Munger goes into the important role, the continuous education, seeking of knowledge

• 1:08:52David Senra?

  that him and Buffett have dedicated their lives to, why that was so influential with the record that Berkshire was able to achieve. "What people mean when they say a man has common sense is uncommon sense. We don't have any new tricks. We just know the old tricks better. Berkshire loves education and it loves people who like to learn. I think the one thing that we did that worked best of all, we were always dissatisfied with what we already knew. We wanted to know more. If Warren and I had stayed frozen in time, Berkshire would have been a terrible place. It's only that we kept learning that made it work, and I don't think that'll ever stop. Had Warren not been learning all this time, our record would be a mere shadow of what it is.

• 1:09:37David Senra?

  And he's actually improved since he passed the age at which most other people retire. Most people don't even try this. It takes practice." And that is where I'll leave it for the full story. Highly, highly recommend buying the book. The great thing about this book is it's, you don't have to read it all at once. You don't even really have to read it in order. That's the way I did, but I think it's just a great thing to keep out. You pick up, maybe read five, 10 minutes, maybe read, you know, a few pages. To me, it's really a tool, a way to download the thinking of Buffett and Munger into your brain consistently. So if you buy this book using the link that's in the show notes on your podcast player, you'll be supporting the podcast at the same time. Another great way to support the podcast is to sign up to the Founder's Premium feed.

• 1:10:20David Senra?

  The Founder's Premium feed contains AMA Ask Me Anything episodes. Subscribers to that feed get to ask me questions directly, which I then answer those questions on AMA episodes on the Founder's Premium feed. If that sounds interesting to you, that link is down below in the show notes and of course, available at founderspodcast.com. That is 286 books down, 1,000 to go, and I'll talk to you again soon.