The Xiaomi Fold and New Meta VR Glasses

Wake me up, when Techtember ends. As we wrap up September the crew talks about taking pictures with a toothbrush, Tesla Roadster being delayed, new Nothing Headphone Pros, Meta Connect, and OpenAI Dev day! Links: Mark Gurman: Homepad Twitter Joanna Stern: Mark Zuckerberg Interview The Verge: Amazon Blocks Muse Ben Jordan: Flock Senate Hearing This episode brought to you by: Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/waveform Framer: https://www.framer.com/wave Jira: https://www.jira.com Pipedrive: https://www.pipedrive.com/waveform Follow us on socials: Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin Waveform Threads: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Waveform Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/waveformpodcast/?hl=en Waveform TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Intro/Outro music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrew Manganelli?

  This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, host Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist, and Colin Martin, Head of Fixed Income Research and Strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring your fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting, and what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episodes and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Great meeting. Who took notes? Anyone?

• 0:38Speaker 02

  With Monday Note Taker, nobody has to take notes again. It joins your call, transcribes it, and turns the whole conversation into a clear plan. Action items, owners, deadlines, all right there on your monday.com board, ready for the team. So the meeting ends, and the plan already exists. Meetings aren't just talk anymore. Go to monday.com, the AI workspace platform.

• 1:03Speaker 03

  Support for the show comes from Google Gemini. You know that moment when curiosity strikes? You're exploring a new city with the family, and a sculpture catches your daughter's eye. What is that? Who made it? With Gemini, you can snap a picture and get a fully interactive breakdown of its history, architecture, and even hidden secrets. Gemini is built for moments like that. Whether you're learning something new, solving a problem, or looking for your next favorite thing, Google Gemini is here to help. Download Gemini, Google's AI app, or visit gemini.google.com to learn more.

• 1:42Andrew Manganelli?

  When is this?

• 1:43Speaker 04

  Sorry, my agent just erased my entire calendar. Can you?

• 1:45Andrew Manganelli?

  Just kidding. Have my muse talk to your dot. We'll figure this out later.

• 1:56Speaker 04

  Yo, what is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marquez.

• 2:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm Andrew.

• 2:02David Imel?

  And I'm David.

• 2:03Speaker 04

  We've got Ellis over at the producer desk. Hi. Adam's on vacation. For a long time. But Ellis is holding it down. You don't have to share a mic anymore. You can actually just have the mic to yourself.

• 2:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. Oh, [bleep]. Big step. Whoa. Big step.

• 2:16David Imel?

  You guys might not even remember that Adam exists in a couple of weeks, because he's gone for like, five weeks.

• 2:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, that microphone is fully yours.

• 2:23David Imel?

  Oh, we miss him.

• 2:24Speaker 04

  This is crazy. It's gonna be great. Yeah. Today's episode, it is publishing in Techtober, but guess what? It's still technically Techtember, so there's a lot going on. Meta Connect, we can talk about, which happened literally right after we recorded last week, so we can talk about it this week. We also have a fun update on the Dyson Toothbrush. The Tesla Roadster is delayed again. And why the Nothing headphones, the new ones, are kind of sick, and also kind of dumb. And some OpenAI Dev Day announcements. And I'm gonna unbox this, here, live, first thing on the pod. Because inside here is a phone that I'm going to make a video about, but I'm gonna give all of us the opportunity to give our real first, first, first, first impressions. People don't get to see that very often. No. When we take a product out the box, and like, give our real, raw first impressions.

• 3:08Speaker 04

  That's what we're doing with this. But first,

• 3:12Speaker 04

  did they even test this?

• 3:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Whoa. All right, this was something someone posted on Reddit, and I believe it's still here.

• 3:19David Imel?

  It's a great one.

• 3:20Andrew Manganelli?

  It's very short, and it is insanely frustrating. There is a single pixel

• 3:25David Imel?

  Yep.

• 3:25Andrew Manganelli?

  in the data quick settings button.

• 3:27Speaker 04

  I gotta see this.

• 3:28Andrew Manganelli?

  On, um,

• 3:30Speaker 04

  On the pixels?

• 3:30Andrew Manganelli?

  On the pixel, yeah.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  And the data.

• 3:32Andrew Manganelli?

  So do you see right, maybe like, top left, between the top left corner and the arrows? Do you see that one singular pixel?

• 3:39Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 3:39Andrew Manganelli?

  And if you think it's a spec, scroll down, because the whole button will move, and it will follow.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  The hell, Google? Yeah.

• 3:46David Imel?

  Dude, the pixel, oh my god. Here's a blown up version. Here's a blown up version you can see. You know what's crazy? To me, this feels like someone made this in Photoshop, and like, used the paintbrush tool to paint in all the white.

• 3:59Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:00David Imel?

  And they just like, missed a portion?

• 4:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, or they like, did the magic wand, and like, that was just a hair off of the tolerance, so it like, left a pixel or two there.

• 4:10David Imel?

  I, it's insane. It's crazy that they shipped this. But, you know, all you have to do, Google, is you just gotta use the paintbrush tool.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  Beep.

• 4:17David Imel?

  And you push the update.

• 4:19Speaker 04

  It's like, not that crazy, and no one's really noticed it until now, but it's also still crazy.

• 4:23David Imel?

  It's like, two pixels.

• 4:24Andrew Manganelli?

  That does make it look like two pixels. On your phone, it just looks like one.

• 4:28Speaker 04

  It looks like one pixel.

• 4:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. And it is, it is enough to make you be like, do I have a dead pixel? Oh, wait, it moved. I followed it. Yep, it's still there.

• 4:34David Imel?

  Very strange. So, you know?

• 4:37Andrew Manganelli?

  That's a fun one.

• 4:38David Imel?

  That's a fun one. Anyway, let's do this live unboxing.

• 4:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 4:41Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 4:41Andrew Manganelli?

  While you're opening this.

• 4:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Also, be sure to subscribe. We have a bonus episode coming out on Tuesday, an interview I'm pretty excited for, I think longtime listeners will be excited for. But, again, Marquez is now opening a box that Rich ran into here right before we started the podcast, because it's something we're pretty excited for.

• 5:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, uh, this is the Xiaomi Fold. The folding phone that is getting a lot of attention from Xiaomi, because it is essentially, this is the worst box.

• 5:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, the note knife is probably.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  I tried the tab thing, and it just didn't work at all. You know those FedEx boxes that are supposed to have like, a tab that you pull?

• 5:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, you have two broken tabs on the table.

• 5:17David Imel?

  Ironically, the Xiaomi 18 Fold, because they totally didn't steal that.

• 5:23Speaker 04

  18 Pro. Yeah. So we, I did a video on the 18 Pro Max. You guys have probably already seen that.

• 5:29David Imel?

  The Xiaomi 18 Pro Max.

• 5:30Speaker 04

  The Xiaomi 18 Pro Max.

• 5:32David Imel?

  To be clear.

• 5:33Speaker 04

  This is the one that looks very much like the iPhone Duo, and there's, there's all this speculation about how this happens. So I think a part of my video about this phone is gonna be about how we end up with these like, identical phones at the same time, because it's actually kind of interesting. But you guys have not held, or you've played with the iPhone Duo, but you've not held the iPhone Duo.

• 5:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I've not.

• 5:56Speaker 04

  This is your opportunity to basically hold almost the same thing.

• 5:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Is it burgundy?

• 6:00Speaker 04

  But Xiaomi. And it is burgundy, in fact.

• 6:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, my god. This is my favorite stuff where they're like, this is the age-old debate online of, this came out first, so they, like, they clearly copied it. No, this has been in production for so long, so they couldn't have copied it. It's like, at a certain point, we have to understand that these companies kind of know what's going on.

• 6:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Around the world, and...

• 6:22David Imel?

  Does look very nice.

• 6:23Andrew Manganelli?

  That's an interest, that's a much more red burgundy.

• 6:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is a...

• 6:27David Imel?

  Compared to my burgundy.

• 6:28Speaker 04

  Shiner. You have a burgundy iPhone?

• 6:30David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 04

  It's gonna be way brighter over, oh, yeah.

• 6:32David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 6:32Speaker 04

  Way...

• 6:33David Imel?

  Mine is more of a wine color.

• 6:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Yours looks way more purple. I mean, I think yours is burgundy. That is like, Merlot.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  It's Merlot. In case you're wondering why I hate on the iPhones burgundies, because...

• 6:43David Imel?

  It's still a good color.

• 6:46Speaker 04

  Boy, we're not gonna do this.

• 6:47Andrew Manganelli?

  This looks like grape purple.

• 6:49David Imel?

  Two thirds of social media agree that it's a good color.

• 6:52Speaker 04

  Okay, so here, I'm, this is my very, very, very first time holding this phone. I noticed things, so this is a folding phone. I'm noticing things like the spring weight. It doesn't really, uh, push open as much as the iPhone, which had like, a sort of a magnetic like, snap open.

• 7:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 7:09Speaker 04

  This does that a little bit less. The screen's off, so I'm looking at the hinge. It's pretty minimal. It's not as minimal as like, the Oppo Find N or the iPhone Duo, but it's pretty minimal.

• 7:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Is it turned on? I feel like...

• 7:20Speaker 04

  It's not on yet.

• 7:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Off is the easiest way to see.

• 7:22Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 7:23Andrew Manganelli?

  And you...

• 7:24Speaker 04

  Then the front screen, I'm gonna boot this thing up, is exactly the same D shape as iPhone Duo as well, which is flat on the left-hand side, rounded on the right-hand side.

• 7:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 7:37Speaker 04

  And then, uh, yeah, it's thin. It's definitely lighter than the iPhone, and it's got...

• 7:42David Imel?

  Has a telephoto, which I'm jealous of.

• 7:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's got triple cameras on the back, across the whole back, which feels a little bit more correct.

• 7:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I say, I kind of wish, since the like, pill camera is all the way across on the back, like a pixel bar, I wish it was flat on one side, and curved on the other, so it matched the, uh...

• 7:58Speaker 04

  That'd be fun.

• 7:59Andrew Manganelli?

  The full aesthetic of it.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  I'm gonna sort of...

• 8:01David Imel?

  I think it's nice that it's like, rounded, because then that way, it doesn't like, it doesn't, uh, shake when you put it on the table.

• 8:07Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 8:08David Imel?

  You know? It'll just be always pretty stable, like this.

• 8:11Andrew Manganelli?

  I think if it was just flat right here, it would still be...

• 8:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, probably true.

• 8:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Stable.

• 8:14Speaker 04

  Probably true. All right, I'm logging into the internet, or speedrunning the setup real quick.

• 8:18David Imel?

  It does look quite good.

• 8:19Andrew Manganelli?

  I think it looks good. But I also, I think the iPhone looks good.

• 8:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:23Andrew Manganelli?

  I think the Oppos looked good. I think the old Pixel Passport looked good. I...

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:27Speaker 06

  That's crazy how much it looks like a Duo, man.

• 8:29David Imel?

  I mean...

• 8:30Speaker 06

  We, that's, that is, for audio listeners, like, picture an iPhone Duo.

• 8:37David Imel?

  But burgundy.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  There is no burgundy iPhone Duo.

• 8:39Speaker 06

  I would call that crimson.

• 8:41David Imel?

  Yeah, sure. There were some interviews with Apple's executive team during the Apple event and some people were asking about this phone. And they said, you know, there are just some things that we can't protect. And unfortunately, some other companies managed to predict our design and we just can't stop that from happening.

• 9:01Andrew Manganelli?

  I think Turnus said that.

• 9:03David Imel?

  Dude, even the icons.

• 9:05Speaker 04

  That was Turnus.

• 9:05David Imel?

  Even the icons, like Apple icons, like the phone app.

• 9:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Does it do the thing? It doesn't do the.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  So it does, it doesn't do the, the exact same animation, but it does do the thing that a lot of other Android folds do, which is it plays an animation while you open and close it. So.

• 9:21David Imel?

  You're right.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  It's kind of a fun, like, opening animation, sometimes like a butterfly. I'm gonna hand this to you, Andrew. There's your first look at Xiaomi Fold. What do you think?

• 9:32Andrew Manganelli?

  I do like holding it like this.

• 9:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Like the, the just general size of it and, and kinda makes me wish there was a phone that was this size. I know that's the kind of thing that all of us tech reviewers are saying would never actually work, but I do like the little like butterfly animation effect on the background, opening it up.

• 9:49David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:49Andrew Manganelli?

  We're all opening.

• 9:50David Imel?

  They've done that basically since the first.

• 9:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, a lot of, now I'm just in the settings apparently. But, I mean, I don't have a lot of thoughts of this. I use zero folding phones. Oh, wait, the dock.

• 10:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, the dock at the bottom.

• 10:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh my.

• 10:03David Imel?

  Look at those icons. It looks the same.

• 10:05Andrew Manganelli?

  The dock literally looks just like a Mac dock. That's really funny.

• 10:08David Imel?

  Apple managed to protect mostly was the software experience and how they were going to optimize iOS for the iPhone Duo. That didn't leak ahead of time at all and everyone was very curious about how that was gonna work. And so their design with like the right sided dock and the toggles being on the right. I think that's a very unique thing, although it'll probably get copied within like a week.

• 10:29Speaker 04

  Software up ahead of way.

• 10:29David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:31Andrew Manganelli?

  I will say like on front screen, just this does not have the whole right aligned menu and everything because the selfie camera's in the middle and I think it looks great.

• 10:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 10:40Andrew Manganelli?

  I like, I guess Apple wanted to do all of that and I thought they did a bunch of good software stuff on the right. This makes me wonder if it was necessary to do that.

• 10:48David Imel?

  Can I just say this just makes me even more excited for the iPhone Duo?

• 10:52Speaker 04

  For the iPhone Duo?

• 10:53David Imel?

  Because it's so wide. It just feels like a gadget, dude.

• 10:56Andrew Manganelli?

  It does feel like a gadget.

• 10:58David Imel?

  We haven't had like a gadget like this in like a really long time. The phones have just been the exact same size, exact same aspect ratio. Having something square and weird is like, I'm, I'm so excited for it. Also, it's not good for one handed typing. But that encourages you to do this. And I think this is a cooler way of typing, just using both thumbs at the same time, you know?

• 11:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Makes it look like you're.

• 11:18David Imel?

  You're doing business.

• 11:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, business transactions only.

• 11:22David Imel?

  Oh, oh, wow. Yeah. When you turn it sideways, it sort of collapses the icons into being bigger.

• 11:27Speaker 04

  Oh, I don't know how, oh, interesting. So it goes to one page.

• 11:30David Imel?

  It turns into a tablet, basically. A single page tablet.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 11:34David Imel?

  With making bigger icons, which I think makes a lot of sense.

• 11:36Andrew Manganelli?

  That's really nice.

• 11:37David Imel?

  Yeah, because that way it's just like, it's easier to experience it as a tablet when everything's a little bit bigger.

• 11:43Speaker 04

  And intuitively, it makes sense.

• 11:44David Imel?

  The weather app is exactly the same.

• 11:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, can I see it real quick? I didn't even look at the crease, which makes me wonder if I didn't feel like I saw it.

• 11:50David Imel?

  Crease is worse than the Duo, but also the Duo is using like all of that. I mean, it has the diffused layer on it, which definitely helps.

• 11:57Speaker 04

  Liquid filling.

• 11:58Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, I haven't looked at a crease in a while and this is, I mean, you have to look for it.

• 12:03David Imel?

  You do have to look for it.

• 12:04Andrew Manganelli?

  We've got like this big old light right above us that is, makes it really easy to find when you want to, but normally.

• 12:10David Imel?

  My hot take is like crease worries are basically the same as bezel worries, which are just very over.

• 12:15Andrew Manganelli?

  When you're only looking at a photo of it in the worst possible scenario on Twitter and then you wanna make a big stink about it, those are the only people.

• 12:22David Imel?

  When you use it every day and you're, you're focused on the content, your brain is not gonna be like, but there's a crease in the center.

• 12:29Andrew Manganelli?

  We survived the pixel bathtub notch.

• 12:32David Imel?

  Barely.

• 12:35Andrew Manganelli?

  We're okay with that. I, I don't care what the crease in the middle is.

• 12:38David Imel?

  Was a moment in time, for sure.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:41Andrew Manganelli?

  This is cool.

• 12:41David Imel?

  This is cool. I love when you open it and turn it sideways. I feel like it encourages you.

• 12:46Andrew Manganelli?

  And it's broke.

• 12:46David Imel?

  I feel like because it makes the icons bigger and stuff, it sort of encourages you to use it in the iPad mini format.

• 12:52Andrew Manganelli?

  I will say, I didn't hold the Duo, but holding this like a tablet vertical like you're saying, you, the camera bump is there.

• 13:00David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 13:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, it is there.

• 13:02David Imel?

  But does it, does it feel like a ledge that helps you hold the phone?

• 13:05Speaker 04

  No, because it's bigger now.

• 13:06Andrew Manganelli?

  It's bigger and it's more like.

• 13:07David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Like I think because it's so long, when I have it, if it would be top left corner on the back, it's right there where my pointer finger would be.

• 13:16David Imel?

  Right.

• 13:17Andrew Manganelli?

  And the other way, actually this way.

• 13:18David Imel?

  That might be, yeah.

• 13:19Andrew Manganelli?

  When it's on the bottom, I'm almost like holding it, yeah, like a grip.

• 13:23David Imel?

  You just have to make sure you're.

• 13:24Andrew Manganelli?

  That's what I wanna do with my $2,000 phone.

• 13:26David Imel?

  Okay.

• 13:27Andrew Manganelli?

  No, it's kinda nice.

• 13:27Speaker 04

  That's the thing about foldables is there's, there's 80 ways to hold it. You can have it halfway open. You can have it fully open. You can rotate it any way you want. That is a, that's a nice, nice discovery.

• 13:36David Imel?

  But because there are 80 ways to hold it, I have talked to some developers and they're like, oh my God.

• 13:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:41David Imel?

  The amount of ways I have to optimize my app is insane.

• 13:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. The one thing, one thing I noticed about the iPhone Duo is they did place a lot more emphasis on halfway open.

• 13:52David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 13:52Speaker 04

  Than I've seen in any other foldable. Usually Android phones are like, here's the closed state, here's the open state. And this coolly has that, but the sort of halfway open thing is, I mean, it depends on the developer, but they have stuff for that too, which is interesting. And there's also a whole ton of responsiveness to how open the hinge is. Now, look at this. Okay, I'm seeing this now.

• 14:11David Imel?

  Also does, yeah.

• 14:12Speaker 04

  You see the way this, uh, this wallpaper responds? I'm gonna turn the brightness up.

• 14:16David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  To roughly how many degrees open it is.

• 14:19David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 04

  Can you show it to the camera?

• 14:20Andrew Manganelli?

  That's so nice.

• 14:21Speaker 04

  So, yeah, the phone knows how open the hinge is. And the wallpaper is dynamic and as I'm opening it, not fully open, but just moving it between those degrees, it is responding in real time.

• 14:33David Imel?

  That's really nice.

• 14:34Andrew Manganelli?

  It's like a butterfly flapping.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  Whoever, yeah, whoever designed this hinge is, is cringing right now.

• 14:40David Imel?

  Look, they say it can do millions of that.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is, this is the type of thing that happens when users get it in their hands.

• 14:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:45Speaker 04

  But yeah, the grip, okay.

• 14:46David Imel?

  It's kinda not that.

• 14:47Andrew Manganelli?

  The right hand grip is kinda sick.

• 14:48David Imel?

  Yeah, you're just gonna have to clean your camera all the time.

• 14:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Clean your camera all the time and then realize you're holding a, how mu, I'm assuming this is also at least 1,500, yeah, an $1,800 phone.

• 14:59David Imel?

  Definitely.

• 15:00Andrew Manganelli?

  But by like a millimeter.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  But yeah, this is, this is not bad.

• 15:04David Imel?

  Yeah, it's nice.

• 15:05Speaker 04

  We'll have a lot to say about it. Stay tuned, get subscribed, of course, to the MKBSC channel to see the whole video on everything you need to know about it. But yeah, this is the, uh, the Android side of the fence for that exact form factor.

• 15:17David Imel?

  Unbelievably excited about this form factor. It's, I love short and square.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  I can tell you're gonna be a Duo daily or.

• 15:22David Imel?

  Oh, a thousand percent.

• 15:24Speaker 04

  This is, yeah.

• 15:25David Imel?

  Yeah, I miss the, uh, I miss the original pixel fold a lot, so I feel like this will be nice. I've had so many people in my life who are not tech people, definitely don't listen to Waveform, who, like, I posted one story from being at the Apple event and they go, oh my God, is it cool? Is it cool? Oh my God. And I got texts from people.

• 15:41Speaker 04

  Dude, it's the cultural, it's one of these things that's in the zeitgeist. It's the same as like, I went and got a haircut and my barber was like, how about that iPhone Duo? Like, I go to the grocery store, the cashier's like, how about that iPhone Duo? Like, it's the thing that everybody's talking about.

• 15:55David Imel?

  It's so wild.

• 15:55Speaker 04

  And this is weirdly like just parachuting into that same space. Like, what about this too? You could get this.

• 16:01David Imel?

  Can we make a bet?

• 16:02Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 16:02David Imel?

  Okay, cuz I made, I made a bet with my friend Mark that the Duo is going to sell, I mean, it's gonna be a little off, but he was saying that it's not gonna sell well. And I was like, based on the people that have told me that they're going to buy it, who are not really tech people, I completely disagree. Now, obviously, Apple put out the Pro models like a month ahead of time. And I also know people who said they were gonna wait for the Duo, but then they caved and bought a Pro.

• 16:27Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 16:28David Imel?

  So I think that it's gonna sell less than it would have if they released it at the same time, but.

• 16:33Speaker 04

  You just have to define what well is.

• 16:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, that's really hard.

• 16:36David Imel?

  I think that it will sell at least 50% of the amount of units that the Pro sold in the first week.

• 16:44Speaker 04

  Whoa, oh, in the first week?

• 16:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 16:46Speaker 04

  Okay, it's interesting. That's interesting. I think that.

• 16:50David Imel?

  I think 50%.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  What we usually see in like the first week of sales is the most hardcore dedicated people, which is why the Pros always sell way more than the regulars in the first week, but then over time, regular people just get a regular iPhone and it sort of evens out. So the Duo is going to be some combination of the most hardcore

• 17:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 17:09Speaker 04

  week one people who are like, yes, I've been waiting for this.

• 17:11David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 17:11Speaker 04

  And the new people who are like, ooh, shiny.

• 17:14David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 04

  Uh, 50% is pretty high. I would take the under on that.

• 17:18David Imel?

  I know it's high, but I think it's.

• 17:20Speaker 04

  So you think it's over that?

• 17:21David Imel?

  I think it could be over that, yeah.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  Okay, I would take the under.

• 17:24Andrew Manganelli?

  I think it's under just because I thought there were rumors that the production of it wasn't gonna have as many units.

• 17:30David Imel?

  There are, but I mean, if you preorder it and then it's just delayed, I don't think it's, you know.

• 17:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, so you're saying, okay, so they don't necessarily get it.

• 17:38David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 17:39Andrew Manganelli?

  When do they get to get it? Uh, it's a bet.

• 17:42David Imel?

  First week sale.

• 17:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I feel like it's gonna be successful, like the Vision Pro is successful off the riff of like new shiny crazy Apple product that a ton of people are gonna buy.

• 17:51David Imel?

  Not that many people bought the Vision Pro though. Every YouTuber.

• 17:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree.

• 17:55David Imel?

  It got a ton of YouTube views.

• 17:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Comparing it to though.

• 17:58David Imel?

  But, yeah.

• 17:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I don't.

• 18:00David Imel?

  This doesn't feel like a device that only YouTubers are gonna buy to make videos about.

• 18:03Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree. And also I think a lot of people are gonna get that $2,000 price. Cuz this is like a, a price difference to where when we're going to monthly payments, it will feel like an actual difference. This is almost double, like what, what a, the next phone most people would get is. We think people are getting like the regular Pro, like $1,100, this is double that. So like, that will be the difference between like $900 and $1,100 on a monthly payment.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  You know, I can see the edge of the screen protector.

• 18:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Rip it.

• 18:36Speaker 04

  I've been here before.

• 18:37Andrew Manganelli?

  I think we're, uh.

• 18:39Speaker 04

  I'm not gonna peel it.

• 18:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, it didn't come in a box to say, don't peel it.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  I, when I was setting up the phone, there was a, a stage in the software where once I signed in, it was like, hey, don't peel the screen protector.

• 18:50Andrew Manganelli?

  That's unfortunately for some people, too late. I think there are people who would peel that before, that's why Samsung had to put it in a card on top of the phone before you even took it out of the box.

• 19:01David Imel?

  Good point. Okay, I'm, um, I'm looking at how much it is per month through Apple. Okay, the iPhone 18 Pro per month for the base 256GB storage is $50 a month for 24 months, or at least for 35. This one is $83 a month for 24 months, or at least for 57 per month, for 24.

• 19:26David Imel?

  I don't know, man.

• 19:27Speaker 04

  $35 difference?

• 19:27David Imel?

  I know that is a big difference, but.

• 19:31David Imel?

  I still think it's gonna sell like crazy.

• 19:33Andrew Manganelli?

  I think it'll sell good. I don't know if crazy is the term I would use.

• 19:36David Imel?

  There's also the like celebrity endorse factor, like everybody talking about it.

• 19:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 19:42David Imel?

  When it shows up in the, in the purse of a Kardashian or whatever happens.

• 19:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 19:47David Imel?

  I'm just saying like the, the most powerful word in marketing is new. And the iPhone 18 Pro looks the same as the 17 Pro, except for a new color. Maybe it has the new variable aperture, which is how they sell these things. But a new iPhone form factor is a very big deal. We saw the 17 Pro was like one of the best selling iPhones in a really long time.

• 20:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Yep.

• 20:09David Imel?

  Because it was the first one that actually changed the design enough that it felt really new.

• 20:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 20:15David Imel?

  This feels really, really new.

• 20:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I feel like I've also seen a lot of tech people being like, this is so cool. And you're like, are you gonna buy it? And they're like, no, I'm not going to buy it.

• 20:24David Imel?

  Yeah. Ellis, what's your over under on 50% of?

• 20:28Speaker 06

  I have no idea. I was, you, we talked about it in the car this morning and um, I, I have no idea. Cause on the one hand, like I do agree, the hype is sensational.

• 20:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 06

  But on the other hand.

• 20:39Andrew Manganelli?

  In our world, it will look like every single person has.

• 20:42David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is gonna be.

• 20:43Speaker 06

  It's $2,000. I was, I was on my phone trying to see like what my trade in options would be if I did want to buy one. I can't even get close, man. It's like.

• 20:53David Imel?

  Yes.

• 20:53Speaker 06

  If I trade.

• 20:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Adam will find a way.

• 20:55Speaker 06

  If I traded in my iPhone and an old iPhone and another old iPhone and my iPad.

• 21:01David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 06

  I would get about halfway.

• 21:05David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 21:06Speaker 06

  Being able to.

• 21:07David Imel?

  That is fair.

• 21:07Speaker 06

  And it's just like, holy cow, man.

• 21:10David Imel?

  Well, you gotta throw your iPad in there too. You don't need your iPad anymore.

• 21:13Speaker 06

  No, I did throw the iPad in there. That's what was crazy. And it's an iPad Pro.

• 21:17Andrew Manganelli?

  I do wonder like what a carrier deal might be.

• 21:20David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 21:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Like if there's some wild carrier deal out there for this. And I wouldn't be surprised because I bet Apple will incentivize carriers to do something to push these things out so that people have them.

• 21:30David Imel?

  Although there has been a big push in the last couple of years for Apple to sell devices directly instead of through carriers. They've been making a concerted effort to do that. So we'll see. But I do think a lot of carriers are going to specifically hype the fold.

• 21:42Andrew Manganelli?

  For sure.

• 21:43Speaker 06

  David, were those monthly numbers you gave earlier part of the upgrade plan or just the Apple financing?

• 21:49David Imel?

  The first one was, wait, what do you mean by upgrade versus financing?

• 21:53Andrew Manganelli?

  It was an Apple.

• 21:54Speaker 06

  Are those the same thing? Cause they do that Apple upgrade subscription now.

• 21:58Andrew Manganelli?

  No, no, that was just like if you buy a monthly or if you do the lease, which is the lease, the.

• 22:02David Imel?

  Yeah, so.

• 22:03Speaker 06

  The lease, the same.

• 22:04David Imel?

  So the first one was buy for $11.99 or $49.99 a month. That is the.

• 22:11Speaker 06

  That's like the Apple card financing.

• 22:12David Imel?

  Yeah, it's financing. And then the lease was, it had it here somewhere.

• 22:17Speaker 06

  And the lease is what they call like the.

• 22:19David Imel?

  Oh yeah, lease for 35 a month. Yeah. So it's, on the Pro, it's $15 cheaper to lease per month. And on the Duo, it is, sorry, cut this out.

• 22:33Speaker 06

  Is that worth it?

• 22:35David Imel?

  On the Duo, it is like $35 cheaper to lease per month, which is a lot.

• 22:41Speaker 06

  So maybe if I trade in everything I own and I lease it.

• 22:45David Imel?

  Lease it for two years.

• 22:46Andrew Manganelli?

  You could just trade in a cool $2,000 from your credit card.

• 22:49David Imel?

  You gotta really want it. Can I hand you this?

• 22:50Speaker 06

  I would really love that.

• 22:51David Imel?

  You should check it out. I hate the idea of leasing anything, but.

• 22:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree with you.

• 22:55David Imel?

  Especially like a $2,000 phone. Think, I don't know.

• 23:00Andrew Manganelli?

  A $2,000 folding new form factor phone.

• 23:02David Imel?

  There are some things that make sense. Like you can lease a Mac Studio and if you can like write that off.

• 23:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, if you win a Fortnite tournament on it, you can just buy it.

• 23:10David Imel?

  You lease a Mac Studio and if you can, you know, if you do, use it for work explicitly and you can write it off and you always want to be on the cutting edge and you don't really care about the ownership aspect of it. There is a case to be made there because the lease that they, that what they lease it for is actually quite inexpensive compared to what you buy it for.

• 23:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Do we know what Apple Care is gonna cost on this thing? Cause will it be different?

• 23:33David Imel?

  Probably is gonna cost more because the whole value is higher, but I don't know how much more.

• 23:37Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't want to hang on too much on Duo. We're gonna have a Duo episode plenty soon.

• 23:40David Imel?

  Yeah, I do want to ask Ellis, now that he's holding his first, his first squat foldable.

• 23:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Or 200 years.

• 23:47David Imel?

  He's convinced he's gonna trade in everything he owns.

• 23:48Speaker 06

  No, I'm, I'm not. I mean, I want one really bad. I, I love folding phones and I love small phones. I've been talking about it on this podcast for years now.

• 23:55David Imel?

  That is two boxes checked.

• 23:57Speaker 06

  But it's like, dude, $2,000.

• 23:59David Imel?

  I know.

• 24:00Speaker 06

  But for the, for the base, it's like, there's just.

• 24:03David Imel?

  For me, I'm like, something that I use this much all the time. I'm willing to like throw a chunk of cash at it if I really want it. So.

• 24:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, I, I spent.

• 24:15David Imel?

  I know it's a lot of money.

• 24:17Speaker 06

  I spent like 12, $1,300 on my phone after taxes and stuff last year, like.

• 24:22David Imel?

  Yeah, it's gonna be a good phone for a while.

• 24:24Speaker 06

  I can't.

• 24:24David Imel?

  Yeah, the 17 Pro is great. Anyway, we didn't even intend to talk about this phone.

• 24:29Andrew Manganelli?

  No, because we have something way cooler to talk about, which is the Dyson Camera Jet Toothbrush has two fun updates.

• 24:35David Imel?

  Yeah, two fun.

• 24:36Andrew Manganelli?

  One of them is that it is pulled from market already.

• 24:38David Imel?

  Can I tell you the story about that?

• 24:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, do it.

• 24:40David Imel?

  Yeah, okay. So I'm in my coffee shop, classic. And uh, I'm talking to this guy because he had an X100 and I was like, oh, are you a photographer? And he's like, no. And I was like, that's weird. And then, yeah.

• 24:52Andrew Manganelli?

  That's us X100 users. We are, we like to pretend we're photographers.

• 24:56David Imel?

  Hey, man, you're.

• 24:57Andrew Manganelli?

  I have it, I'm.

• 24:58David Imel?

  You're getting better. Anyway.

• 24:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Thanks, Dad.

• 25:00David Imel?

  You're welcome. You're welcome, son. Anyway, so uh, we're talking, he's from the UK. He's just visiting. He's like, oh yeah, I'm a dentist. And I'm like, hmm, what do you think about the Dyson toothbrush? Have you seen it? Cause I wanted an actual dentist.

• 25:12Andrew Manganelli?

  I had it, I went to the dentist yesterday and I wanted to ask him about it. And the one time he didn't be like, any questions for me? Was yesterday. Oh no, he didn't ask that. And I was like, I'm not bringing this up out of the blue unless.

• 25:23David Imel?

  So funny. Well, I brought it up out of the blue.

• 25:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, good.

• 25:25David Imel?

  I said, what do you think of the Dyson toothbrush? She's like, well, they pulled it from market. And I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, like two days after it launched, like the camera was breaking and they pulled it from market. And I was like, how did I not hear about this? I didn't see any news about it being pulled and it still hasn't been re-released yet.

• 25:41Andrew Manganelli?

  No, and there's no um, updates on when.

• 25:44David Imel?

  That's crazy. There was so much press about this toothbrush and nobody reported on it getting pulled.

• 25:50Andrew Manganelli?

  I love, online users have reported a range of problems, including misfiring jets, breakages and operating failures when the toothbrush gets wet.

• 25:57David Imel?

  What?

• 25:59David Imel?

  As if a toothbrush was gonna not get wet.

• 26:02Andrew Manganelli?

  What the heck?

• 26:03David Imel?

  Wow, did they even test this?

• 26:04Andrew Manganelli?

  They claim only a small number of units have been affected.

• 26:08David Imel?

  Okay, well, of course. Ironic, I feel like Dyson is the company that would test, over test everything.

• 26:14Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree.

• 26:14David Imel?

  Cause everything they make is so over engineered.

• 26:16Andrew Manganelli?

  That's their reputation.

• 26:17David Imel?

  Their whole, yeah, exactly. Like everything is so over engineered that they have to put it through the most insane stretch tests of all time. And the fact that it was like breaking and got pulled two days after it released is insane. Anyway, that's update number one.

• 26:31Andrew Manganelli?

  There is, there was enough time for an Instagram page called All Gear No Skill to find a way to um, take street photography photos with it, which.

• 26:39David Imel?

  With all 100,000 pixels.

• 26:42Andrew Manganelli?

  What is it? 0.1 megapixels?

• 26:43David Imel?

  0.1 megapixels.

• 26:44Andrew Manganelli?

  There, so you can't actually take photos with this because Dyson themselves say you cannot store any photos or media, but.

• 26:52David Imel?

  Sounds like the Apple Watch.

• 26:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. In the app, there is a live viewing screen. So when you're brushing, you can see your teeth, I guess.

• 27:01David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 27:02Andrew Manganelli?

  So what this person did is took it out into the daylight and then took screenshots of their phone.

• 27:08David Imel?

  Oh.

• 27:08Andrew Manganelli?

  As the live view is happening. So that's how they took the photos. And honestly, they're kinda cool.

• 27:15David Imel?

  They're kind of vibey.

• 27:15Andrew Manganelli?

  They're very vibey. They're all super distorted, which at first I was wondering if it was, I was wondering if the mouthwash thing had to shoot. And that's why it looked, they all look like they're underwater, but I think the plastic covering the camera is just so bad that they look really bad.

• 27:31David Imel?

  This is what people like talk about, like first gen iPhone photos looking like.

• 27:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. There's some vibey ones. They kind of all look like they're underwater. Um, she said that she obviously felt kind of weird walking around in public, pointing a toothbrush at things.

• 27:46David Imel?

  Yep.

• 27:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is totally um, fair. And my favorite quote from her was, the camera needs a lot of light, but also can't handle too much of it.

• 27:56David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 27:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is really funny, but it's also a $500 toothbrush. So it's not supposed to.

• 28:00David Imel?

  100,000 pixels, Andrew. You say it's a $500 toothbrush, but it's not on sale anymore. So you have to get them on eBay where they're going for a $1,500.

• 28:08Andrew Manganelli?

  No way.

• 28:09David Imel?

  Are you kidding?

• 28:10Andrew Manganelli?

  15, sealed inbox. You can get one. It's just 1500. Thinking of it as the resale market and buying a resale toothbrush might be the most insane thing I've ever heard.

• 28:19David Imel?

  That's the most 2026 thing I've ever heard. Yeah, a lot of Reddit users were saying that it looked very similar to an early 2020s Gen AI photo. Like, do you remember Google Deep Dream?

• 28:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 28:30David Imel?

  When they had like the dogs melding into each other to make the Mona Lisa.

• 28:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Or even the, the first Will Smith eating spaghetti video.

• 28:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 28:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Where everything's like wobbling, basically.

• 28:38David Imel?

  Everything's really like.

• 28:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 28:40David Imel?

  Unstable. Yeah. So.

• 28:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Wow.

• 28:42David Imel?

  That's fun. I, I wish I had done this first. Street photography on a toothbrush is, is uh, is the next.

• 28:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Brand new sentence.

• 28:50David Imel?

  That's the next meta. Anyway, um, speaking of uh, it not being around anymore because it was pulled. It's the same thing as nothing.

• 29:03David Imel?

  Because it's not on the market. So when you go to the aisle to look for it, it's not there, which is nothing. Oh, just like the headphones.

• 29:11Andrew Manganelli?

  In your hand.

• 29:11David Imel?

  That's crazy.

• 29:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh wow, that's, K sounded so nice when it hit the table.

• 29:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Andrew Manganelli?

  So it's a plast. Not really plastic.

• 29:18David Imel?

  I have not tried these before. These are the Nothing Headphone 1 Pro.

• 29:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 29:22David Imel?

  They're Nothing's first studio quality, mixing quality, quote unquote, headphones.

• 29:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Ellis, how do you feel when everyone calls everything studio quality?

• 29:32Speaker 06

  Okay, first I just want to say.

• 29:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Sorry, I'm sorry.

• 29:34Speaker 06

  I, I promise I'm like locked in on this podcast. For those video watching that see me look in all sorts of directions, I gotta do Adam's job too. And we've been having some audio issues on the recording computer. So I'm doing stuff on my laptop just to free up some GPU space. I swear, I take this job so seriously. All right. To answer your question, I'm kind of ambivalent. What does it mean? I don't know. Would I use those in a studio? Probably not. If I walked into a studio and someone was using those, I would either be like, damn, that guy knows something that I don't or has a lot of money.

• 30:09David Imel?

  All right, Marques, tell us about the Nothing Headphone 1 Pro.

• 30:12Speaker 04

  All right, so the review is out. This is their $400 pair of headphones that are an upgrade in several ways over the previous Nothing Headphones 1. They are triple drivers inside instead of a single driver. They claim to have much better overall sound. Obviously, they claim that. But they're also slightly more premium materials. It's like a titanium band. Instead of plastic on the back here, this is glass. It's a slightly new design. And then they do this interesting feature where they have a flat button.

• 30:40David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 04

  In here.

• 30:41David Imel?

  It's a switch, right?

• 30:42Speaker 04

  It's a switch. And when you flip that switch, it goes from being its nice colorful V-shaped frequency response to being basically the equivalent of like flipping it to log video. It just goes totally flat. And the idea, anyway, is that that is being able to flip a switch between these being fun, vibey music-listening headphones and also being like studio-reference headphones. If you want to listen to music on the plane and then land and then edit a video with these headphones on, you can flip the switch and do both properly. Eh, kinda. You can. It definitely does make a dramatic effect. They're saying it's totally unprocessed audio and it literally disables the EQ when you flip that switch. So it's

• 31:27Speaker 04

  something. But they also come in this case, this new case that they've made for it. They still don't fold. Instead of making a big rectangular case like the last one, they've made this sort of a bralette case. It's plastic. It's maybe the worst version of this case I've ever seen. The USB-C port to charge the headphones is still in here, but when you close the case, that covers it and you can't charge them. So you have to open it to charge the headphones.

• 31:52David Imel?

  That's confusing.

• 31:53Speaker 04

  It weighs more than the headphones themselves, so this whole package is like 700 grams or something. It's a lot. It's like a pound. But I hand them to you. That is the Pro Nothing Headphones. They actually sound, if you listen to my review, I think they sound fine. But in the world of like $400 active noise-canceling headphones, they are not at the top.

• 32:13Andrew Manganelli?

  But most of the headphones in this category aren't $400 anymore, right?

• 32:16Speaker 04

  They range from like $350 to $550 typically.

• 32:20Andrew Manganelli?

  I thought they were all closer to like $550 now.

• 32:23David Imel?

  The new Sonos Ace are $450.

• 32:25Speaker 04

  It depends on which ones. Like the Beats 360s are $350. The Sony XM4 relaunch is $300. The XM6s are like $450. The AirPods Max are $550. There's a bunch of other headphones that are like sort of in this range.

• 32:39Andrew Manganelli?

  The QuietComforts still say $360, which...

• 32:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, $360 for Bose. QC Ultra, though? I think it's $450.

• 32:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, maybe.

• 32:44David Imel?

  The new Sonos Ace Ultra just came out today.

• 32:47Speaker 04

  And those are like $450. Yeah. So there's a big range. This is, they're all in the same level, I guess, of like, these are the premium active noise-canceling headphones.

• 32:58David Imel?

  This is titanium?

• 32:59Speaker 04

  Titanium, but like with a coating on it and with a really nice plush cushion.

• 33:04David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 33:04Speaker 04

  The best part of these headphones is the cushion, actually, I think.

• 33:06Andrew Manganelli?

  The cushion feels so nice.

• 33:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:10Andrew Manganelli?

  I gave the...

• 33:11David Imel?

  They're comfortable to wear.

• 33:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Obviously, this is Pro versus the other ones, but I gave the style of the last Nothing headphones. I did not like them one bit, and I think these are fantastic. I think these...

• 33:20Speaker 04

  Really?

• 33:20Andrew Manganelli?

  I think these look way nicer, way cleaner. I think, although, I got tricked. I thought the interiors, I was like, oh, that actually does look like it might be something real, but it's fake, apparently. But at least it looks better. It's not like over the top. It's very subtle and nice. So you get the cool, and I love Nothing truly wireless headphones. I use them almost every day.

• 33:42Speaker 04

  The earbuds?

• 33:42Andrew Manganelli?

  The earbuds, because I think they look really good and they fit in my ears, and that's kind of all I care about, because I'm not listening or watching anything important enough for me to care about the sound as much. And I think these look nice and they feel nice, and this case is a monstrosity.

• 33:56David Imel?

  Yeah, the case is kind of a crazy thing, because it's like partly well-designed. It has this like metal latch. It's got these kind of premium materials, but then it's insane that they didn't think about charging it.

• 34:07Speaker 04

  Wait, okay, I want you to do something. Put the headphones on, and let me see this case. So put the headphones on with the right side on the right. And now, this is your case. So now, go ahead and put them in the case. See how intuitive it is to put them in the case. So you open the case, you take the headphones off, you try to put them in the way you had them on, upside down. Oh, you have it upside down. That worked so well because it was upside down.

• 34:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Because he's like facing the camera instead of facing him.

• 34:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. So you have to flip them.

• 34:38David Imel?

  And the case is right side up.

• 34:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. And you take them off your head. You have to flip them to put them in the case, which I was like slightly annoyed by that. I don't know why that's...

• 34:47Andrew Manganelli?

  It's a little thing. It's one of those little things that stacks up because the rest of the case is a terrible experience.

• 34:53Speaker 04

  Mostly, yeah.

• 34:53David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 34:54Andrew Manganelli?

  It's just like, I guess it protects them when you put them in a bag, but it doesn't protect the head strap, which feels like it. So it feels like it's just adding weight and bulk without being able to charge it, without, like, it feels like for no real reason. It has its little lanyard holds that I guess you could put a whole strap on also if you wanted and wear it like, but then...

• 35:16David Imel?

  Or charms and stuff.

• 35:17Andrew Manganelli?

  There are charms and stuff. I don't know. I'm so out of that. The last time we made a suggestion to Nothing, they said, "We don't listen to people like you."

• 35:25Speaker 04

  Here's what I'll say about the review process. I had these...

• 35:27David Imel?

  They didn't really say that.

• 35:28Andrew Manganelli?

  They said like, "We don't take design from..." I'm glad we didn't take design from people or something.

• 35:32David Imel?

  Well, they're definitely gonna clip this podcast and make a YouTube video out of it.

• 35:35Speaker 04

  So the interesting thing about my review process, I'll say, comparison is a thief of joy.

• 35:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 35:40Speaker 04

  So I first, I got these headphones, and for a couple days and for the entire weekend, I was listening to them. And I was like, "Yeah, wow, these are nice. These are good." I didn't have any other headphones with me for reference. So I was listening to like, you know, Lossless Spotify and a bunch of other stuff. And I was like, "Yeah, these are good." Then they're super comfortable and the battery is lasting forever. And so I was pretty happy with like a lot of it other than the case. And I was like, "I think I might like, just like to use these headphones all the time." And then, when I got back here on Monday, I broke out like six or seven other pairs of headphones and started doing my back-to-back testing to like form my last thoughts to write on the sound quality. And that's when I was like, "Oh," like, there's a lot more warmth and separation and detail

• 36:23Speaker 04

  and a lot of these other headphones. And the Nothing does a good job with passive noise cancellation because of these ear cups. So they do a really good job with ANC, and I will say that they match up with ANC to the rest of the competition. But in the actual way that they sound, I ended up being like, "Oh, I actually don't want to keep using these headphones," because of the way I've been enjoying Sony's and AirPods Max.

• 36:46Speaker 06

  Were you using Lossless Spotify with Bluetooth?

• 36:50Speaker 04

  Yes, which is not real, but it is my typical listening situation. So that was my A/B test for like every pair of headphones was Spotify, Bluetooth.

• 36:58David Imel?

  Do you think that they were...

• 36:59Speaker 06

  Technically still compressed at 990 kilobits per second, I think.

• 37:03Speaker 04

  I guess if I was playing it out of the speaker, it would be closer to Lossless.

• 37:05Speaker 06

  You would have needed to wire it in.

• 37:07David Imel?

  Yeah, wired in.

• 37:07Speaker 06

  In the SBC.

• 37:08David Imel?

  Yeah. Do you think that they were targeting these more at like mixing-producing people or...

• 37:14Andrew Manganelli?

  No.

• 37:14Speaker 04

  I don't think so. I mean, this, yeah, this feature, it would be weird to get these if that wasn't your intent, right? Like, most of these headphones, like, I could edit videos on AirPods Max. I've mostly edited on speakers, but like, they're fine. But that's because I expect them to sound close to the way everyone else's speakers sound. But I have the Sennheiser's that I use for editing at my desk, and they're a very, they're a more neutral sound, and that's what I expect to adjust my mix for, so that when someone else listens, I don't know, it's just like video editing. Like, I can see certain things in my edits, so when someone watches this on a crappy monitor or like a really old phone, I know they'll be able to see most of the same stuff. It's that same philosophy. It's just a feature I haven't seen in other headphones.

• 37:55David Imel?

  This kind of feels a lot like an artifact of the Charli XCX collab, because she's technically like a DJ and makes her music.

• 38:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I was gonna say, this feels like Beats Studio, kind of like...

• 38:06Speaker 04

  Beats Studio is funny.

• 38:07David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. I really like those headphones.

• 38:09David Imel?

  The fact that it has like the flat toggle, so like she could be mixing while she's using them or whatever, and then it's got like the bralette case that kind of makes it look like a purse. And like, that's very fashionable.

• 38:20Andrew Manganelli?

  And it's obvious when you're walking around with it.

• 38:21David Imel?

  It kind of feels like an artifact of that, but that also could just be, "Give me some money and I'll give you some promotion."

• 38:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:28Andrew Manganelli?

  I think both of those are spot on.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. The original Nothing headphones launched at $300 and went down to $250, and this launches at $400. So to me, it just felt like, "Hey, we want to offer something in the premium space."

• 38:38David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 38:39Speaker 04

  And that was their distinguishing feature. Cool design and flat switch.

• 38:42Andrew Manganelli?

  I wish they sent us silver ones, because the black looks clean, but like, I've always thought Nothing and all their silver or white versions look better and more on their brand and style.

• 38:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. Okay. Well, speaking of things launching, should we take a quick break and then do the launch stuff? Speaking of...

• 38:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Let's just keep going. Let's just, let's do it. We've got two more quick things, and then the rest is like...

• 39:02Speaker 04

  Okay, they're both uniquely launched.

• 39:03Andrew Manganelli?

  A ton of Meta Connect, and yeah.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  Well, we'll rush through them.

• 39:06David Imel?

  Okay.

• 39:06Speaker 04

  Okay. So, we just had a big Apple event. We're about to have another big Apple event. Maybe, possibly, allegedly. Mark Gurman...

• 39:15David Imel?

  Tweeted this week that there will probably be an Apple event on the 13th. Event is a strong word. It could just be a release.

• 39:23Speaker 04

  Techtober.

• 39:23David Imel?

  But it is techtober. We often now see a lot of Apple things drop in October and November. Usually it's like there's iPad stuff, there's MacBook stuff, there's all this stuff. But we've been waiting for this new Apple HomePad device that we've talked about quite a few times on the show now. Girman is speculating that on October 13th, we're going to see a new HomePod Mini with new colors like pink and green, new Apple TV, which a lot of people have been waiting for, and potentially finally, that HomePad device.

• 39:53Speaker 04

  That's what I'm excited for.

• 39:54David Imel?

  Yes. He does not believe we're going to see the security cameras that we alluded to last year.

• 40:01Andrew Manganelli?

  That they like showed in Dub Dub, right? Was that where they sho- they like kind of showed home stuff using like security cameras?

• 40:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 40:09Speaker 04

  But like making their own.

• 40:10David Imel?

  Right. And there was a big leak like a few months ago where we went through all of the Apple products that were on in the pipeline. And a couple of them are security cameras. So that will probably come out eventually. But right now it seems like it may just be the HomePad and also the new HomePod Mini and Apple TV.

• 40:27Andrew Manganelli?

  The funny thing I've from this Girman tweet, or he then continued tweeting about it, was the last time we talked about the HomePad, we were all like, oh, we saw this really funny like old render of it looking like an iMac G4. But that's totally not it. That's so silly. He just decided to come out of the blue and say like, they are, they do seem to be working on a higher end version of Smart Home Hub, featuring a nine inch display mounted and robotic arm that can swivel 360 degrees. So we all think G4. And then he just straight up tweeted a picture of the G4 and was like, this is what it looks like.

• 40:58David Imel?

  Yeah, that would be crazy.

• 40:59Andrew Manganelli?

  That's so, I like that that's so sick and so funny. It's like the Pixar lamp, HomePad or HomePod. But yeah, we basically just completely decided against it. Now they're launching two?

• 41:10David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 41:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Or not launching two, launching one and possibly a second?

• 41:13David Imel?

  It would be so crazy if we got the Duo in October. We got these in October and then the MacBook Ultra is supposed to come out this year. Like that's so many new products. And there was a big, there was a big rumor last week that John Turnus is going to accelerate the product development and release lifecycle.

• 41:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. I think this is actually also pretty interesting because one of the things, when we always talk about Apple, a lot of their stuff is so robotic and predictable because of what they've done in the past. The easiest way to predict what they're going to do is look at what they just did last year. When will the iPhone 19 be launched? Probably the second Tuesday of September. Like we kind of have this rhythm where we know.

• 41:50Andrew Manganelli?

  They started on a Wednesday.

• 41:51Speaker 04

  I know, which is like a shocker.

• 41:52David Imel?

  Yeah, because it was Labor Day.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  So, so now this, this, this report also from Girman is talking about how, you know, one of Turnus's priorities is to just take more risks, launch more products, run leaner and try new things and be experimental. And so, yeah, maybe an October event, maybe a February event. Maybe just random things get launched that aren't part of a brand new huge fall event that has a ton of stuff. And we just kind of get a bunch of stuff all the time.

• 42:16David Imel?

  That sounds great.

• 42:17Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm so here for it. I think as people who professionally yap about stuff like this all the time and who then also have to talk about like AI nonstop, Apple going fast and loose, sounds like the most fun thing we could talk about.

• 42:29David Imel?

  And like spreading it out. Instead of it being like, all right, here's a September event. There is seven new products all at once. Here are all of them. Good luck. It's like, here's two of them. Now here's two more. Now here's two more.

• 42:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Do you know what would be sick? If Turnus just brought AirPower out of nowhere?

• 42:43David Imel?

  That would be hilarious. It would be like Tim Cook's least favorite thing. It's like, you know what I did that you couldn't do? The charger.

• 42:50Speaker 04

  It'd be funny if they call it AirPower 2.

• 42:52David Imel?

  Well, speaking of re-releases,

• 42:57David Imel?

  the Tesla Roadster, yeah, the Tesla also launch related. The Tesla Roadster, we talked last week about how they have this re-unveiling event happening in October. It was going to be October 1st.

• 43:09Speaker 04

  Tomorrow.

• 43:10David Imel?

  That was going to be this week. But as of you listening to this on Friday, you've probably realized that that didn't happen. That was postponed because the weather in Texas during that day was windy and thunderstorms. And this is a car demo that requires being outside. So they postponed it by two weeks.

• 43:27Speaker 04

  Two weeks.

• 43:27David Imel?

  Which is enough time to rebook a flight, I guess.

• 43:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. I just see it as like, we could obviously just look like we're sitting here dunking on Roadster getting delayed again. But we were wondering how much of an event this was going to be. And this, I feel like this proves there will be a car driving there, doing something outside.

• 43:44David Imel?

  The only things that I'm confident about is that there will be a demo of the Roadster doing something.

• 43:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 43:49David Imel?

  And so they have to have it outside and the weather, I mean, this is a convertible and the weather said thunderstorms and rain and wind. So I'm like, I get it. Postpone it. People are reading way into this and being like, you saw the FAA clearance that they got where it's like no flights over for 10,000 feet. People were like, the Roadster's going to fly. I'm like, relax. This doesn't mean.

• 44:08Speaker 04

  Google does that for Google AI.

• 44:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I know. I'm pretty sure Tesla has done it for their old things because they don't want people like droning over top of it, getting footage.

• 44:15David Imel?

  It's very likely that they will do this for all of their events, no matter what, but I think also maybe a drone show, maybe whatever.

• 44:21Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, there were even things just like, well, it's going to fly. Even if it jumps, you don't want it to, the wind to like flip it over. It's like, come on, guys. This is crazy. Yeah, it's a convertible. They don't want to get rained on.

• 44:31David Imel?

  When you look at the weather today, and they postponed this quite a few days ago. Even now, when you look at the weather today, tomorrow, which is the day it was supposed to be, is thunderstorms still. So makes sense that they're going to delay it. Guess we'll just have to wait another two weeks.

• 44:44Speaker 04

  What's another two weeks?

• 44:45David Imel?

  What's another two weeks?

• 44:46Speaker 04

  We've been waiting nine years already.

• 44:47David Imel?

  It's fine. Yeah, it's fine.

• 44:49Speaker 04

  It's not a big deal.

• 44:49David Imel?

  Everything's fine.

• 44:50Speaker 04

  Not a big deal. Okay.

• 44:51David Imel?

  You have time to invite me, by the way, Tesla.

• 44:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, two weeks is enough time for us to book flights.

• 44:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Too salty about it, Marques.

• 44:57David Imel?

  Yeah, they're not going to invite me.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  It's okay. You still have hair.

• 44:59David Imel?

  Yeah. All right. It's time for a break. For real this time, for real, for real, on God, we're going to take a quick break. Which means it is time for trivia.

• 45:08David Imel?

  What has Ellis been cooking up over there for trivia?

• 45:10Speaker 06

  Ooh, something, something good because, um, do you guys remember a while ago when Travis Scott did that Fortnite concert?

• 45:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 45:19Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't even want to know how long ago that was.

• 45:21Speaker 06

  It was a long time.

• 45:23David Imel?

  Was it 2020?

• 45:24Speaker 06

  Did I ever tell you guys? My band, which I don't want to go too into, you know, it's a previous part of my life, but my band performed at a Minecraft music festival with.

• 45:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Minecraft Travis Scott copied you?

• 45:37Speaker 06

  Uh, I can't remember if it was before or after the Travis Scott thing, but Pussy Riot and I want to say the band that everyone thought Banksy was in was, was also, was also.

• 45:49Andrew Manganelli?

  This is like the most Brooklyn coffee shop conversation.

• 45:52David Imel?

  Strange. Ellis lived in Philly.

• 45:56David Imel?

  And I guess Philly is kind of like a suburb of Brooklyn.

• 45:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 46:00David Imel?

  Oh, God. It really is.

• 46:02Speaker 06

  I'm not going to accept that.

• 46:04David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 46:04Speaker 06

  As I'm wearing my, my Philadelphia 76ers T-shirt of the day, I cannot accept that. Okay. Well, question one, related to internet music festivals, I learned that the very first, very first belongs in like so many quotation marks, it'll fill up an entire page, but the very first broadcast over the internet audio visual music concert experience was done in the early to mid 80s.

• 46:32David Imel?

  Not surprised.

• 46:33Speaker 06

  I lied. 1994. Not having this up on the screen right in front of me is way more difficult than I thought it would be.

• 46:41Speaker 06

  What band was it? This is a huge band. This is a huge, huge, huge band.

• 46:49David Imel?

  It was a huge band. In the 90s.

• 46:52Speaker 06

  It's one of those bands that is perennially, like, like a timeless musical act. And the reason there's so many quotation marks around this is because lots of other bands that no one is, I don't want to say no one's ever heard of, but do not even compare in size to this band, beat them, including, and this was hilarious. One band scheduled an online broadcast performance to go up 20 minutes before the Rolling Stones because the drummer in the band.

• 47:24Speaker 06

  It's okay. I got lots of backup questions.

• 47:26David Imel?

  That was going to be my guess.

• 47:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Was it actually?

• 47:28Speaker 04

  I was not.

• 47:28Andrew Manganelli?

  I was going to guess Nirvana.

• 47:29David Imel?

  I was going to guess The Beatles.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  I'm going to say U2.

• 47:31David Imel?

  Together in 94.

• 47:33Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 47:33David Imel?

  You're going to say U2?

• 47:34Speaker 04

  I was going to say U2.

• 47:35David Imel?

  U2 is later than that. 94 is.

• 47:37Speaker 06

  Guys, we all hate the macOS beach ball.

• 47:40David Imel?

  Facts.

• 47:41Speaker 06

  Before it was a beach ball, what was the icon?

• 47:46Speaker 06

  Anyway, the, the drummer in the band beat the Rolling Stones because he worked at Xerox PARC and had access to a baller internet connection.

• 47:54Andrew Manganelli?

  What do you mean by beat?

• 47:55Speaker 04

  The drummer in what band?

• 47:56Speaker 06

  Uh, there was a band called The Severed Tires.

• 47:58Andrew Manganelli?

  No, no, I just mean, oh, beat them, oh, to being first. Sorry.

• 48:02Speaker 06

  They're called severe tire damage. They found out ahead of time about this Rolling Stones concert and were like, we're going to host one 20 minutes before and they could set it up really fast because the drummer in severe tire damage worked at Xerox PARC. They could have a baller internet connection and they just played a show at the Xerox PARC.

• 48:17Andrew Manganelli?

  I wonder what baller internet connection was in 94?

• 48:19David Imel?

  Before, before.

• 48:21Speaker 06

  Before it was a beach ball.

• 48:23David Imel?

  Before it was a beach ball.

• 48:24Speaker 06

  We're talking classic macOS. You're on like a pre, I guess that'd be pre OS 9 or pre OS 8. I can't remember what we consider classic macOS. But you do something, your computer freaks out, it's not responding, your cursor goes from a cursor to what? And I won't, I won't spoil this one. I won't do it.

• 48:41Andrew Manganelli?

  You should just stop talking.

• 48:42Speaker 06

  I hate stopping talking.

• 48:44David Imel?

  I think I know this. Also Ellis.

• 48:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:47David Imel?

  Uh, who is sponsoring the Rolling Stones show? Like who is that a, who is putting it on?

• 48:52Speaker 06

  I have that information immediately to my left, but I'm really trying to not go back and forth between my laptop. So I will get that to you after the break.

• 49:00David Imel?

  Okay. So we'll be right back.

• 49:12Speaker 04

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• 52:06Speaker 06

  Welcome back. I have the answer to David's question now. It seems like this whole thing was in support of a multicast backbone creatively called M-Bone, which was Backbone Infrastructure to deliver audiovisual stuff cleanly over IP.

• 52:24David Imel?

  Nice.

• 52:25Speaker 06

  M-Bone.

• 52:25Speaker 04

  M-Bone. I wonder what they're up to now.

• 52:29David Imel?

  Xerox PARC?

• 52:31Speaker 04

  I guess we'll never know.

• 52:32David Imel?

  I guess we'll never know. All right. Last week, we barely missed some big news, because this event happened literally hours after we recorded last Wednesday.

• 52:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, we say right after, but it was like, long enough after.

• 52:43David Imel?

  Well, we recorded during the business day on Wednesday, and then Meta Connect was like, after hours on Wednesday.

• 52:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, because it was, you know, specific time.

• 52:52Andrew Manganelli?

  For Pacific.

• 52:53David Imel?

  Yeah. So, they had a lot of updates that they released. They released new Ray-Ban Meta Glasses. They released new audio-only Meta Glasses. They had a new VR mixed-reality headset that looks suspiciously like a Vision Pro without the, like, eye shield things.

• 53:10Speaker 04

  But better.

• 53:11David Imel?

  But better. They had holograms. They had a lot of stuff. So, we're just gonna go through all of that. So...

• 53:16Andrew Manganelli?

  I think there's two big ones to talk about.

• 53:18David Imel?

  Okay.

• 53:18Speaker 04

  I think the headset is really interesting.

• 53:20Andrew Manganelli?

  That's what I have the most of. Let me really quickly go. There's updated third-gen Meta AI Glasses. The audio-only version is obviously like, a less bulky. They can put in more frames, because they don't have to be so big. They can do music calls, AI, and a pair of glasses. Also, no cameras. We like that.

• 53:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:38Andrew Manganelli?

  And they're 349. Also, better battery life, 12 hours on the charge.

• 53:41David Imel?

  That's what I was thinking, yeah.

• 53:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Cool. And then, the really big one that I'd like to talk the most about, we kind of hinted in a previous episode, which is the Meta VR Glasses.

• 53:50David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:51Andrew Manganelli?

  The funny thing about these, with the name, is I kept looking up what the name was this, and then I realized they're just called the Meta VR Glasses, because I kept thinking these were like, I see them as Quest Pro 2, because they remind me so much of what Quest Pro and a better form factor is.

• 54:05David Imel?

  Yeah. They're like, Quest Pro had a baby with a Vision Pro.

• 54:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes. I mean, honestly, yeah.

• 54:10David Imel?

  Or like, but also shrunk way down into...

• 54:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Like, Enreal Glasses had a Vision Pro baby, and like, with Quest Pro capabilities.

• 54:17David Imel?

  They're what the Vision Pro should have been.

• 54:19Andrew Manganelli?

  They're 100% what Vision Pro is.

• 54:20David Imel?

  And they're also a third of the price.

• 54:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, this is what, I really liked the piece that also German wrote on what Apple's been working on with Vision Pro, because Vision Pro's kind of been dead, and we keep talking about Vision Pro, but like, it's not that popular of a product. But, we've been talking for years about how there's smart glasses that are trying to add more and more capability, and there's headsets that are trying to shrink down with all the capability they have in them. This is the headset shrinking down. So, it's like, high resolution, pretty wide field of view, full immersive VR, obviously can still do pass-through, and it has like, sort of light bleed. It's a little bit more of an open design, but it is very much like, it's got the smooth glass on the front, it has a bunch of sensors and tracking, and it looks like a Vision Pro from the outside.

• 55:05David Imel?

  Looks like a Vision Pro.

• 55:06Speaker 04

  But, it's way lighter. It has a separate puck, which has the compute and battery in it, so it's taking a lot of that weight off of your head. And it is, yeah, it's very capable. And obviously, you can run it standalone, you can connect it to a PC, just like a Vision Pro, but it's a third of the price of a Vision Pro. It's like $1,400, right? $1,300?

• 55:24Andrew Manganelli?

  $1,300. Yeah, it's, it's like a pair of ski, the lenses of ski goggles, but then with the, I always forget what the sides of glasses are called. Stems? Arms?

• 55:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:34Andrew Manganelli?

  It has, like, glasses arms, with then the wire going down. So, like, yeah, imagine Vision Pro without a big strap on your head, because they're 100 grams, which is crazy.

• 55:43David Imel?

  Really, really, really light.

• 55:44Andrew Manganelli?

  That's lighter than the Snap specs, which are supposed to be just, like, actual glasses.

• 55:49David Imel?

  To be fair, those are, the entire computer is integrated.

• 55:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Fair. That is totally fair. And...

• 55:54David Imel?

  They're also like, double the price of these, though, which is insane.

• 55:57Andrew Manganelli?

  And I also think, I don't think these are supposed to be glasses. Like, I know they're called Meta VR Glasses, but no part of this makes me feel like you should like, walk around. Maybe pull these up in a coffee shop, maybe on a plane, when you're doing work.

• 56:10David Imel?

  Plane is the...

• 56:10Andrew Manganelli?

  These are, these are seated things to me, or like, standing in an office.

• 56:14Speaker 04

  I did find that specifically interesting, them just choosing to use the word glasses in the name of the product, even though it's still a headset that's shrinking towards glasses, which maybe implies that they are gonna keep shrinking it and want to keep getting that down towards glasses. But, yeah, they have their other glasses products. This is definitely not one of them, but it has camera pass-through.

• 56:33David Imel?

  There's a couple things, like, it doesn't have a head strap, right? So, if there's no head strap, sort of mounting it to the top of your head, they are technically just big glasses.

• 56:40Speaker 04

  I guess when I use the word glasses, I'm, I'm using it the most literally, which is like, you're wearing glasses, you're looking at me through glass.

• 56:47David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 56:47Speaker 04

  This is camera pass-through.

• 56:49David Imel?

  Sure, yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 04

  So, I guess that's, in my head, it's not glasses, because it's not clear.

• 56:52David Imel?

  That's fair.

• 56:53Speaker 04

  But, maybe they're gonna get there with this product at some point.

• 56:56David Imel?

  Yeah. And they took a lot of design inspiration from the Vision Pro. They also took UX design inspiration from the Vision Pro. It has eye tracking, and it's pretty much the exact same way that you interface with Vision Pro, where you look around with your eyes and you tap with your finger.

• 57:11Speaker 04

  A lot of them are converging on this, too. The Samsung one is the same thing.

• 57:14David Imel?

  I mean, it's great.

• 57:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:15Andrew Manganelli?

  It does not come with controllers. It can use old Quest controllers, but to your point, it's not even coming with the controllers now, so they're going all in on, like, tapping, eye movement, hand tracking.

• 57:24David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Which, and from what I've seen of like, some of the first impressions, it sounds like they did a really good job on it. And people compared it to the Vision Pro, which was, I think all of us agree, the most impressive part about the Vision Pro.

• 57:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 57:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Vision Pro was really heavy, destroyed your neck, had a couple cool things, but the fact that it was so good at tracking your eyes and just clicking, the controls were so intuitive, that was the coolest part of the Vision Pro.

• 57:47David Imel?

  A feature that people have been very impressed with, that traditionally has been very bad, is the virtual keyboard and mouse experience. So, when you're wearing these, you can just like, look down at the tabletop that you're sitting in front of, and a keyboard will show up, and like, a trackpad. And apparently, you just type, and it is really good at catching your fingers. Now, I don't like doing this. Every time I've ever had to type on just like, a glass keyboard or something, the fact that it's not pushing back on your fingers, and you're just like, slamming your fingers against the table, it's pretty uncomfortable. But, everyone who has tried this has said it's like, surprisingly accurate, which is, which is cool.

• 58:21Andrew Manganelli?

  The minute I saw it as a keyboard turd, I like, was like, I hate this. This is so stupid. But then I realized... In the scenario where I don't have the keyboard with me.

• 58:30David Imel?

  Yeah, it's like clutch.

• 58:31Andrew Manganelli?

  It's so much better than, I'm sure everyone remembers David's impression of typing on the Vision Pro, which is just like your eyes darting back left and right and clicking your finger. Like, that's annoying. It works well, but it's annoying. So having that keyboard be able to pop up is probably great. I think more people are going to be using this at their desk with their actual mouse and keyboard, connected to their computer, as a place to have an infinite amount of screens and real estate in front of you.

• 58:56David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 58:56Andrew Manganelli?

  And I think that's why this not having, like, eye-blocking shades on the side feels similar to the Quest Pro, like you're more in your environment, like this is a pass-through thing, like you're not.

• 59:09David Imel?

  Mixed reality.

• 59:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, you're not taken away from everybody else in the room with you. So that's why I think this is, again, this is Quest Pro, but better, because I could see more people using this for work and productivity, as like, sitting at your desk with all of your normal stuff, even your laptop, because you can see your screen, but also then have multiple other screens around you.

• 59:26David Imel?

  Yeah. For me, the best feature of the Vision Pro was the extended display from your MacBook. You would sit in front of it, it would pop up on top of your MacBook. You could have one large display, you could have a really widescreen display. There were just multiple ways to do it.

• 59:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 59:40David Imel?

  This, but your neck not getting tired, and also having like airflow coming through the sides of your face.

• 59:46Andrew Manganelli?

  True.

• 59:47David Imel?

  Sounds really great. So. I do aim to test these out and check them out. I'm trying to get a demo of them. TBD, again, TechTemper's super busy, so it was like on the radar, but we didn't get out there because we were reviewing other things, but hopefully we get to check these things out. Yeah, they aren't launching until spring 27. Yeah. So we've got quite a while until these actually drop, but the people who have tried them were quite impressed.

• 1:00:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, quick specs on them. Dual 5K micro OLED panels, 2412 by 2288 per eye, up to 120 Hz. Seven, this is where I was a little confused. 70-degree field to view horizontally, 66 degrees vertically. 3-hour battery life, but the puck does have USB-C for continuous use.

• 1:00:23David Imel?

  Like the Vision Pro.

• 1:00:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Like the Vision. The puck is 300 grams, which is funny, that's three times the weight, but also makes sense. They got to move.

• 1:00:30David Imel?

  And that.

• 1:00:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, it is a quarter of the weight now on your head, which is important. 12 gigs of RAM, 120 gigs of storage, micro SD card slot, six cameras for head tracking, four infrared for eye tracking, and like you said, $1,300, spring 2027.

• 1:00:43David Imel?

  Yeah, that's quite surprising.

• 1:00:45Andrew Manganelli?

  It is. They also did pull out one more thing, the Muse Charm.

• 1:00:52David Imel?

  Tamagotchi.

• 1:00:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Which, we haven't even talked about Muse yet. I had it for last week's, and then last week's, we absolutely crashed out about YouTube, and I think we were all sweating, so we needed a break.

• 1:01:01David Imel?

  That's my bad.

• 1:01:02Andrew Manganelli?

  So we can quickly talk about Muse Charm, and then talk about Muse, because all Muse Charm is, is.

• 1:01:07David Imel?

  Is a physical representation of the muse that you can carry around.

• 1:01:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Thick Apple Watch on a keychain that has your little muse.

• 1:01:14David Imel?

  It's a thick tamagotchi. So for people that don't know what Muse is, because we haven't even talked about Muse at all.

• 1:01:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20David Imel?

  They released their own little AI agent thing, which we'll get to OpenAI's version later in this episode, but it's this cute little furry guy, and that's a very intentional decision to make it cute, because Mark Zuckerberg is on a campaign to make people not hate AI. All these companies are.

• 1:01:36Andrew Manganelli?

  On this podcast, we have said, I don't get why AI isn't making all their things you talk to like cute, like Clippy.

• 1:01:43David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm regretting saying that right now, because we're about to talk about another cute thing later.

• 1:01:48David Imel?

  So Muse is like a personal little agent. It's a virtual machine that runs in the cloud that you can have. It's free to use. You can ask it to list things for you on Facebook Marketplace. You can give it access to your Gmail. It's like, it's everything that you would do with like Claude Cowork or something like that, but it's in a little micro-agent thing that you can run on your phone. You can run it on different surfaces. And because it's in a virtual machine, it's like sandboxed in a way.

• 1:02:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11David Imel?

  Although you can still give it access to a lot of things. There have been some weird things that have happened so far, like someone listed some stuff for them on Facebook Marketplace, and they just gave it all the access that it asked for. And then the Muse agent communicated with the person, told them when to come pick up the item, told the person who showed up that they will be right down, and the person that was selling the stuff didn't know that. And they told them their address, all this stuff. So clearly, there's like, you know, there's a lot of weird things and edge cases that can go wrong with these, but for Meta, Muse has been, by all accounts, a huge success for them.

• 1:02:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, it's like the agentic assistant everyone is trying to launch, because you can give access to so many different things. Like you said, the marketplace thing. I mean, it kind of, does this not sound sort of like OpenClaw before? Whereas like you can now text it and it's doing all of that.

• 1:03:03David Imel?

  Pretty much, literally.

• 1:03:04Andrew Manganelli?

  From, yeah, Facebook.

• 1:03:05David Imel?

  Yeah, didn't you like hire the OpenClaw? They did not. That was OpenAI.

• 1:03:09Andrew Manganelli?

  I think OpenAI.

• 1:03:10David Imel?

  But someone did decompile the virtual machine to like look at all the system files. They're identically named. Yeah. And someone tweeted about it and was like, this is just OpenClaw but rebranded. And the guy that, I guess the guy that's the head of Muse or whatever, was like, it's not, but we took a lot of inspiration from him, and we think that he did it the right way, the right, the first time. And it was like, okay, but they're all identically. I definitely watched some interview with Zuck where he like, he mentioned OpenClaw in this, and the way he talked about it kind of made it seem like, yeah, we just like pulled that in, like we just pulled that inspiration in there. It's open source. Sure, exactly. And I think that like OpenClaw was such a weird thing, because it is powerful, but it's so confusing,

• 1:03:52David Imel?

  and it's so complicated to use. And if there's anything that Meta is good at, it's taking a good idea and making regular people understand how to use it.

• 1:03:59Andrew Manganelli?

  And destroying the privacy on it.

• 1:04:01David Imel?

  And then destroying your privacy. So you don't need any terminal or any fancy new knowledge. You just get Muse.

• 1:04:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Just use WhatsApp.

• 1:04:08David Imel?

  You just talk to it.

• 1:04:09Andrew Manganelli?

  You can use WhatsApp to talk to it.

• 1:04:11David Imel?

  You text it, yeah. And it just does the things you ask it to. You give it your credit card, it buys stuff for you, you give it, you know, access to your accounts, it can send those emails, triage.

• 1:04:21Speaker 06

  That's like the goal. Like, you're saying these things like it will do that, like you're asking it to do it, whether or not it does it, you know.

• 1:04:27David Imel?

  This is, well, this is always the thing about AI, since the beginning, is when it hallucinates, how bad is that for you? Like, if I'm asking for it to just answer a simple question and it hallucinates the wrong answer, that's not a huge deal. But if I'm asking it for like some critical like allergy information and it gets it wrong, that's a little worse. If I'm asking it to buy something and it buys the wrong thing, that's a little worse. If I ask it to list things on Facebook Marketplace and people show up to my house, that's a little worse. So how bad is it when it hallucinates? What does it do?

• 1:04:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:58David Imel?

  That's always going to be a question. Yeah, I was avoiding using this product for quite a while, because I feel like, you know, fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, can't get fooled again. Type situation, George Bush reference. I know, it's in Texas. And I decided eventually, you know what, if I'm gonna be a good tech reporter, I have to sacrifice my privacy. So I did, and it is proactive in a very interesting way. It's alerted me to emails that I didn't notice I had gotten before, that it flagged as important, that Gmail did not flag as important, that I thought was interesting. It was like, you should reply to this person by tomorrow morning. And I'm like, oh, that's actually helpful. I connected to my calendar, so I went to an event last night, and I had two things on my calendar. I had like the event on my calendar,

• 1:05:43David Imel?

  and then I needed to be home by a certain time. And it was like, oh, I see this event, but on your calendar, you should leave by this time. The best way to get there is by city bike. You could city bike there in 20 minutes, or you could take the subway in 40. If you want to get home on time, make sure to leave by nine. I was like, whoa, that's kind of interesting and proactive. Yeah. I still personally don't feel like there's enough value out of these products for me to want to use them, especially giving up my privacy to something like Meta and something that will potentially go out and tell everyone my address. But I feel that they are building towards something that could feel more useful in the future. So this is their version. They now, as you said, Andrew, have a Tamagotchi version of this.

• 1:06:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, the charm.

• 1:06:25David Imel?

  The Muse Charm.

• 1:06:26Andrew Manganelli?

  The charm, yeah, it's like a Tamagotchi that now you can speak to. I'll give them credit. I think the most, the coolest thing about it was, in order to speak to it, it's not a wake word, it's a, put your finger on a fingerprint scanner, so only you can talk to it.

• 1:06:38David Imel?

  That's interesting.

• 1:06:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Cool, privates, privacy-wise, I guess, if people aren't taking over your muse that has access to everything. Someone posted on a subreddit that they gave access to their Ring cameras, which is just like, hey, Amazon's got all my stuff, I want Meta to have it too. But I guess it was for to see if their truck was, like the truck of something was there. Yeah. So like, it's all these things where we're getting to this point where we've always said, what's the convenience to privacy ratio you are accepting, yeah, like willing to give up? And we're getting pretty close to like severe convenience, severe privacy.

• 1:07:16David Imel?

  I think we're there.

• 1:07:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. Well, and the question right now is potential, potential convenience versus privacy? Because it might be actually less convenient when the guy shows up to pick up the low-ball offer for your MX keys, and you never show up. Can I quickly read the message?

• 1:07:35David Imel?

  Sure.

• 1:07:35Andrew Manganelli?

  That they, he said, "Bad news on the MX keys pickup. Ouzman showed up at your building around 9:15 and waited, messaged a bunch of times, and nobody came down. He left angry at 9:38 and left a negative rating. Worse, my auto reply told him, yep, I'm here at 9:27, when you clearly weren't available, which is on me. That's a bad look, and it made no show worse."

• 1:07:54David Imel?

  Jesus.

• 1:07:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I sent him an apology.

• 1:07:57David Imel?

  I love that when AI admits that it just like made [BLEEP] up, or like messed up. It's like, yep, that's on me. You're right. That's on me. You're right. I did this incredibly horrible thing. That's a, that is definitely a meme that has made it to my Instagram feed, of just like, somebody passed it on the ground with like a jar of peanut butter, like, yeah, you're right, that, you are definitely allergic, that's on me. You gotta, but I think what you're saying about like the privacy and convenience is like, we're fully there. I remember a couple of years ago, like talking about this in the video, like, there is a direct trade-off between like, the perfect assistant knows everything about you. Yeah. And then is super, super useful. Like, oh, they know if the package was delivered because they just checked my cameras.

• 1:08:37David Imel?

  They know if I need to reply to that inbox, because they know all of my emails, and they know when I need to leave this event, because they know where I am, what's on my calendar, where I need to be. They have all this information. And so that full, full release of all of your information comes with maybe some usefulness.

• 1:08:54Speaker 04

  I don't have any, like, I have a couple interesting use cases I've seen, like the inbox summary thing, not so much for me because I literally read every email. So I'm like, the email summary doesn't help me. I'm just reading the emails anyway.

• 1:09:05David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Speaker 04

  But there's some other, you know, interesting stuff that could be fun. But yeah, I'm still waiting for the killer feature for me.

• 1:09:11Andrew Manganelli?

  I think what's tough about it too is, so in the sense of the marketplace thing, when he followed up, he realized that he had given Muse his address. He just didn't think. So like, he did give the information out. It is kind of his fault that it got sent out, but he wasn't expecting them to just send it to anyone who sent an offer on Marketplace. So it's this weird thing of like, careful what you wish for. I do wish that Muse had my address so that it could buy me something and get it sent to me. Although, when I think of that case, I'm not thinking it's going to send my address out to random other thing that it has access to. So you have to be super, super careful if you're trying to deal with any of this.

• 1:09:48David Imel?

  The really weird thing about these assistants is that in order for them to be useful, they have to be proactive, but they have to be proactive in a way that you want them to be proactive in. Because like this, the agent was trying to be proactive, but it didn't really understand that it was not doing that in correlation with the user. And so everyone's talking about, oh, eventually, you know, eventually, all these companies are going to release their own version of Muse, right? We're going to talk about the OpenAI dots later in the episode. Anthropic's going to release their own, I'm sure. And all the memes around the Anthropic one are like, every single time it wants access to anything or wants to do any task, it's going to ask you if it's okay. And if an agent is

• 1:10:28David Imel?

  asking you for, to confirm every single step, you're not even saving time anymore. And that's the weird trade off with these, with these agents, right? Like, or if you have a personal assistant that's a real life human, maybe for the first month, they're going to ask, is it okay if I give this person your address? Is it okay if I have your credit card? Yeah, they're going to ask that and you're going to have to go along those steps with them. Eventually, the point of a personal assistant is they know everything about you, they learn everything about you, and they can be proactive without asking.

• 1:10:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58David Imel?

  But do you trust a random artificial intelligence agent to be proactive without asking and not accidentally order a thousand paper clips?

• 1:11:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:11:09David Imel?

  I don't know.

• 1:11:09Speaker 04

  So it's almost like there's like a, like you hired an assistant and there's like a training time.

• 1:11:14David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:15Speaker 04

  And these companies don't know how long of a training time is like acceptable for the user. So they kind of just want to like get right to doing stuff.

• 1:11:22David Imel?

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 1:11:23Speaker 04

  But there's also like no, there's also no repercussions if it messes, messes up.

• 1:11:28Speaker 06

  I was gonna say.

• 1:11:28Speaker 04

  You can fire a personal assistant.

• 1:11:30Speaker 06

  No one, there's, it's not clear legally yet who is liable.

• 1:11:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34Speaker 06

  When an agent does something wrong slash illegal.

• 1:11:39Andrew Manganelli?

  I feel like it, and this is me with zero legal knowledge of anything, but it has to be on the person letting the agent go at this point. Cause like FSD right now, well, because that's like supervised, but you are liable. And there are some very funny videos out there, people being like, no officer, I wasn't driving. And it's like, the police officer does not give a that it's FSD, you're liable. So I don't know what that's going to all be.

• 1:12:04David Imel?

  I mean, OpenAI's agents broke into the Australian Health Ministry last week and nobody seems to be liable.

• 1:12:10Speaker 06

  That's part of the reason all of these AI companies right now are sort of like asking for regulation is because they feel like in the lobbying and negotiation of that regulation, they can impart some of that liability legally on the books to.

• 1:12:26Andrew Manganelli?

  The person versus?

• 1:12:27Speaker 06

  Someone else, you know, it doesn't, it's not clear if they want it to be the agent as like their own being that can be like held legally responsible, or the person controlling the agent, or the person who trained the agent.

• 1:12:37David Imel?

  Yeah. It's kind of the same question we had about like section 230 around the internet and who's liable for the content that gets posted on social platforms, right? Like, they had to decide, no, the platforms are not liable. It's going to be the person that's liable. They haven't really decided on if that was the right move yet. And so now I think that they're taking that as sort of a blueprint and reconsidering like, how do we move forward with this? Cause it's a very similar situation. It's like if your agent did something, are you liable or is OpenAI liable?

• 1:13:06Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:13:06Speaker 06

  Yeah. There's a, there's a few interesting cases, the one of which that I think we will see the results of first is a little too sad to talk about on this podcast.

• 1:13:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 1:13:18Speaker 06

  There, these agents have already committed crimes and aided in crimes and we will find out soon what happens.

• 1:13:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. I mean, like, and again, this is Meta doing everything. They were, they were super, super, especially in like Joanna Stern's interview with Mark Zuckerberg, which is fantastic. You should go watch it.

• 1:13:39Speaker 06

  It's very uncomfortable when she asks about privacy.

• 1:13:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, there's lots of, I mean, they were pretty forward on saying like, these are secure virtual machines and stuff like that. But it's also because at the same time all this happened, they had a landmark case against them with like an $18 billion fine about.

• 1:13:56Speaker 06

  Crazy press timing.

• 1:13:57Andrew Manganelli?

  And then not just that, but now all these New Mexico charges, because they didn't go in that settlement with like 43 million different privacy violations, just in New Mexico alone. So again, it's, it's meta that you have to.

• 1:14:11David Imel?

  Every person who lives in New Mexico.

• 1:14:12Andrew Manganelli?

  It's literally every person that lives in New Mexico. So, yeah.

• 1:14:15David Imel?

  Wow.

• 1:14:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:14:16Speaker 06

  Multiple times.

• 1:14:18Andrew Manganelli?

  If you're going to use these things, be ready that they're going to make mistakes, privacy, and this is everyone. No tech cares about you. No tech really cares about your privacy that much.

• 1:14:28David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:29Andrew Manganelli?

  They want your privacy.

• 1:14:30David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:30Andrew Manganelli?

  So the more and more you give them access to, you have to decide if the convenience is worth it. One thing Muse can't do though, is shop on Amazon.

• 1:14:40David Imel?

  Not anymore.

• 1:14:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Because Amazon blocked it from being able to shop.

• 1:14:44David Imel?

  It has its own shopping agent called Rufus.

• 1:14:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, and because I think the main thing a lot of people are saying is because the best, the way Amazon makes a ton of money is because people pay them to be better searches on Amazon. When you go to Amazon, you might buy 10 more products.

• 1:14:58David Imel?

  It's also an ad service.

• 1:14:59Andrew Manganelli?

  It's an ad service. So if your Muse is going there and buying stuff, they're losing tons of sales. So apparently Meta asked, sorry, Amazon asked Meta before this launch to not be part of Muse shopping. They ignored it, did it anyways. So now Amazon is blocking Meta, which now in all these AI agents that are supposed to do everything for us, everyone is making an AI agent. So who's going to block who from what?

• 1:15:23David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Not be able to, when Amazon launches an AI agent, is Meta going to be like, well, you can't use Facebook or Instagram. So.

• 1:15:30David Imel?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:15:30Andrew Manganelli?

  This is going to make all of this way more complicated.

• 1:15:33David Imel?

  You know what this reminded me of? This reminded me of our conversation around, would you rather have a humanoid robot that does everything or individual components in your house that do the individual things? Cause you can have one agent that just goes on all the websites and does all the things. But companies are never going to let that happen because every surface that your agent touches is like an ad network or just like a monetization platform for that company.

• 1:15:56Speaker 04

  At least for now.

• 1:15:56David Imel?

  So to your point, Andrew, like, yeah, you're not seeing like the ads on Amazon of like other things, but there's also the like, here's other things that other shoppers purchased with this item. They're hoping they're like doing the grocery store thing where they put all the fun little candy at the front of the store. So, and like the, the Red Bull at the front of the stores.

• 1:16:14Andrew Manganelli?

  What do they call it? Like last minute purchases or something?

• 1:16:17David Imel?

  Yeah, something like that. They optimize grocery stores so that you have to go as far around the grocery store as possible.

• 1:16:22Speaker 04

  Milk is in the back corner. Think about where the milk is in your grocery store.

• 1:16:24David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Speaker 04

  It's in the back corner.

• 1:16:26David Imel?

  One of the most common things you buy at the grocery store. They always put it in the back. And so it's a similar thing. It's like Amazon wants to get as many, as many eyeballs on as many products as possible and optimize those products for you around the things that you're buying. And an agent is just buying the thing. It's not like, oh, what if I also wanted a case for my iPhone? Like, an agent does do that.

• 1:16:47Speaker 04

  Totally. And that's so interesting because I can see a lot of the ways that this could play out where like, I'm picturing the literal thing, like a grocery store, like a robot walks into a grocery store, doesn't care about the candy or the Red Bull, goes straight to the milk, picks it up, goes straight to checkout and leaves.

• 1:17:00David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Speaker 04

  And if you're that grocery store, do you block the robots from going in because they're not buying other stuff? Or is it, hey, that's a customer that's going to go buy the milk somewhere else if I block the robots?

• 1:17:11David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Speaker 04

  So they have to decide if they're like, all right, bring in the robots, like they're buying the milk, or if they're just like, no, only humans, humans buy way more stuff and not losing the milk.

• 1:17:20David Imel?

  I think Amazon is enough of a monolith that Amazon themselves is like, no freaking way.

• 1:17:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, because Amazon is the free one to two day shipping. So when Muse buys this thing off of this mom and pop store that is probably actually better for everyone, you're going to be like, it's been 48 hours. Why don't I have this? Muse, you idiot. Why didn't you buy the thing that will get to me right now?

• 1:17:38David Imel?

  Yeah. Amazon is a lot more powerful here.

• 1:17:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Amazon is the upper hand.

• 1:17:43Speaker 04

  And, and Muse is new and doesn't have a ton of users. It has actually a lot of users right off the bat, but if Muse was absolutely gigantic.

• 1:17:49David Imel?

  Or a meta product.

• 1:17:49Speaker 04

  It might be a different consideration for them.

• 1:17:52David Imel?

  Yeah. Something, I was thinking the other week, like they had a million users in the first like week or something, which in the grand scheme, the grand scheme thing is not a lot, but for a new AI agent product from Meta, that's actually quite a bit.

• 1:18:05Speaker 04

  They also just shoved it everywhere. I think I opened Instagram and Muse is just dancing on the top of my app. I was like, what's going on?

• 1:18:10David Imel?

  By the way, now we have Muse and we also still have Meta AI. I feel like they need to get rid of Meta AI. I don't know.

• 1:18:15Andrew Manganelli?

  That's the most meta thing ever is just have like a bunch of random stuff that we're not sure about anymore.

• 1:18:20David Imel?

  The one last thing I wanted to talk about regarding Muse and specifically the Muse charm, is this feels like a redux of Zuck trying to own the next Surface.

• 1:18:29Speaker 04

  Oh, he's always, yeah.

• 1:18:30David Imel?

  Like we've talked, we talked, when the metaverse was blipping, in that like six months that everyone for some reason was investing in the metaverse, we talked so much about how the fact that like Mark Zuckerberg was so mad that he didn't invent the iPhone. And he wants to be the next version of the internet he wants to have control over. So he was like, I'll just make the metaverse a thing so that everyone can run the Oculus OS and we'll kind of control the surface. He's mad that he didn't make Google. He's mad that he didn't make the smartphone. Now he's like, okay, I'm just gonna make the AI agent that everyone wants to use and I'll make the physical little charm. And that's why, you know, it's an app on your phone. Like Muse is an app on your phone because it has to be there. But he wants to get away from your phone.

• 1:19:15David Imel?

  Yeah, everything that relies on being on the phone will always lose to whoever owns that service, which is, you know, Google, Apple, et cetera. So, and by the way, they tried to make a phone. They did try. Facebook first? It didn't go well. The cha-cha, et cetera. So yeah, so now they're trying to make the next service. Yeah.

• 1:19:34Speaker 06

  Wow, I was gonna say something, but then you distracted me because that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

• 1:19:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Joanna's like, sorry.

• 1:19:39Speaker 06

  The guy who spent his like days in college making the rate hot girls by stealing their photos app was like, why wasn't I making a revolutionary product? That's so stupid.

• 1:19:50David Imel?

  Well, he's just mad that he like didn't invent the smartphone or Google.com. Yeah, he just wants to like own the underlying service.

• 1:19:57Speaker 06

  The iPhone, the first iPhone took like half a decade of technological research. It wasn't just some VC code.

• 1:20:03David Imel?

  Yeah. Well, the other thing I think we can look at is like, how many times has he tried to do this and how many times has it worked out?

• 1:20:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Joanna's question?

• 1:20:10Speaker 06

  No, I'm sorry.

• 1:20:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Joanna just really quickly had this question that was like, oh, so like, she's talking about the glasses. So what happened to the metaverse? He goes, this is the metaverse? And like, you can tell it gets really upset. And she's like, oh, okay.

• 1:20:23David Imel?

  They very much rebranded the metaverse to be just like XR.

• 1:20:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, now it's XR.

• 1:20:28David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:29Speaker 04

  And we've been thinking about this since the beginning.

• 1:20:31David Imel?

  Totally not in front of the iPhone.

• 1:20:34Andrew Manganelli?

  The Apple Tower.

• 1:20:35David Imel?

  Without legs. Definitely not that.

• 1:20:37Speaker 06

  Mark has the sort of AI agent versus agent shopping, whose agent gets to use whose platform instead of that platform's own agent, reminded me of a story this week published in Reuters that was a bunch of statements that the insurance company Blue Cross Blue Shield put out. And this is the most like US healthcare story of all time. But Blue Cross Blue Shield is essentially saying that hospitals signed up for all these AI products that help the hospitals identify additional billing conditions that they can bill insurance companies for. So a patient goes in, reports a bunch of symptoms, the doctors may say, oh, we need to do this to you. You have this thing, we're going to send an insurance bill for that. And then AI goes, hey, just so you know, there are also these treatment options that you

• 1:21:21Speaker 06

  could bill, that you could give so you can bill the insurance for more, which Blue Cross Blue Shield said added more or less about a billion dollars in cost to them over the past two years. So they have had to go hire their own AI companies to AI scan these, to find which ones to reject, which sort of results in both sides wasting a bunch of money, raising costs, healthcare costs for everyone.

• 1:21:46David Imel?

  For a net zero.

• 1:21:47Speaker 06

  For literally no effect on patients. And this is the way everything is gonna go.

• 1:21:54David Imel?

  Sounds right to me.

• 1:21:55Speaker 06

  I mean, it's the same, also, it's not called Rufus anymore. They renamed it.

• 1:21:58David Imel?

  The Amazon one?

• 1:21:59Speaker 06

  It's called Alexa for shopping.

• 1:22:01David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:22:02Speaker 06

  But yeah, it's the same, it's the same thing.

• 1:22:04David Imel?

  Okay. Grocery store.

• 1:22:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Google for cars. Was it called again?

• 1:22:08Speaker 06

  Google Drive.

• 1:22:09David Imel?

  Google Drive.

• 1:22:11Andrew Manganelli?

  What is it actually called?

• 1:22:13Speaker 06

  I don't know, we tweeted that like six years ago.

• 1:22:14David Imel?

  That was like an idea.

• 1:22:15Andrew Manganelli?

  No, but they, because it's changed now to like.

• 1:22:17David Imel?

  Android Auto turned into Google Android Automotive.

• 1:22:21Andrew Manganelli?

  It's something for cars.

• 1:22:22David Imel?

  No, Android Automotive is like the one that's embedded, like the Polestar.

• 1:22:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Cars with Google built in?

• 1:22:28David Imel?

  What? Guys, stop. Please stop.

• 1:22:34Andrew Manganelli?

  I like how they were like, here's all these fun names and now it's just like the literal definition of what's happening.

• 1:22:39David Imel?

  Look, we're like a little past 30 years old, okay? Our brains are starting to deteriorate. We're trying to be on the cutting edge to inform our viewers every week and you guys are making it really hard. I could maybe do this when I was 21. I'm having trouble.

• 1:22:55Speaker 04

  Google, cars with Google built in.

• 1:22:57David Imel?

  That's, all right. Well, we're gonna talk a little bit more about some AI agent stuff after the break. We'll try not to overwhelm you. But first, it'll be quick. Trivia. Timeout.

• 1:23:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, you doing the timeout symbol? For audio listeners, he keeps doing the timeout symbol and I keep thinking he's gonna be like, hold on, I have to say something off the, off mic.

• 1:23:19David Imel?

  Just trivia.

• 1:23:19Speaker 04

  When will we all learn that this is a trivia sign? It's trivia time.

• 1:23:23Speaker 06

  Just trivia?

• 1:23:24Speaker 04

  Just trivia. It's not a technical foul or a timeout.

• 1:23:28David Imel?

  The Rolling Stones. War capital T.

• 1:23:30Speaker 06

  Rub it in, why don't you? Adam's gone for one. Second question, question number two is another classic Mac OS. That is Mac OS before Mac OS, Mac OS X, referring mainly to Aiden. Actually, I lied.

• 1:23:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Apples with Mac built in?

• 1:23:47Speaker 06

  Apples with Mac built in, because this question is an OSX question. I take it back. We're all familiar with the OSX settings icon. It is a set of gears.

• 1:24:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, that's what we were all thinking.

• 1:24:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, but before it was gears. What was it?

• 1:24:06David Imel?

  Gears of War.

• 1:24:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Did you see they just released a Gears of War pizza cutter? That's, do you know the gun that has the chainsaw on the bottom?

• 1:24:14Speaker 06

  No way.

• 1:24:14Andrew Manganelli?

  It looks like that, but it's a pizza cutter on the bottom, like the circular pizza cutter?

• 1:24:18David Imel?

  Wow. You know, stuff like that, I'm always like, that's cool, but I would never want to have it.

• 1:24:23Andrew Manganelli?

  It would have been cool 10 years ago when I was.

• 1:24:25Speaker 04

  ThinkGeek?

• 1:24:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, I thought.

• 1:24:27David Imel?

  When you bought it on ThinkGeek.

• 1:24:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Woo.

• 1:24:30David Imel?

  Yeah, I had the. That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. ThinkGeek, yeah, because it got bought by GameStop. Oh, no. And then they got rid of the website and just started selling ThinkGeek branded apparel inside of GameStop's.

• 1:24:42Speaker 06

  I had a lot of ThinkGeek shirts.

• 1:24:43David Imel?

  I had the bag of holding backpack that had like a D20 on it.

• 1:24:47Speaker 04

  I think I made a video about ThinkGeek.

• 1:24:49David Imel?

  No way.

• 1:24:50Speaker 04

  I think I did.

• 1:24:51David Imel?

  Really?

• 1:24:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Did what?

• 1:24:52Speaker 04

  I think I made a video about, I did. I, in May of 2009, I made a video unboxing a random box that ThinkGeek sent me.

• 1:25:01David Imel?

  Really? Wow.

• 1:25:04David Imel?

  I brought my Android polo shirt that I wore to an Apple Store in like 2009 because I thought it made me edgy. That was cool. And then, yeah, I bought some weird stuff there. I'll show you, I'll show you the photo.

• 1:25:16Andrew Manganelli?

  What was in it?

• 1:25:17David Imel?

  This is making me think of this stuff.

• 1:25:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Remember Woo?

• 1:25:21David Imel?

  Woo is still around.

• 1:25:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Is it still? They used to have something called the Backpack of Crap, which was just a Woo branded backpack filled with garbage pretty much that they sent you. Just like, I got like a basketball and like sidewalk chalk and.

• 1:25:33David Imel?

  Oh my god.

• 1:25:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Cheap stuff.

• 1:25:34David Imel?

  Glass outdoor thermometer with a huge, easy to read LCD and temperature read. So you put it in your window, on the other side of the window, and then put it outside and it shows you the thermometer temperature.

• 1:25:45Speaker 04

  The weather origin story?

• 1:25:48David Imel?

  ThinkGeek.com.

• 1:25:49Speaker 06

  The moment?

• 1:25:50David Imel?

  In case you ever doubted how long I've been interested in weather related tech. This is me being edgy in 2012, wearing my Android polo shirt at the Genius Bar.

• 1:26:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Nice.

• 1:26:01Speaker 06

  Show them.

• 1:26:02David Imel?

  Yeah, I can show it.

• 1:26:03Andrew Manganelli?

  You can send that to me.

• 1:26:04Speaker 06

  Wow. Oh, that's like an old school Apple Store.

• 1:26:06Andrew Manganelli?

  That guy's got wired AirPods.

• 1:26:08David Imel?

  Yeah, it's the Genius Bar Apple Store. Yeah.

• 1:26:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, back in the day.

• 1:26:11David Imel?

  Back in the day. Anyway. All right. Okay. Well, we'll think about that settings bar icon for a little while. We'll be right back.

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• 1:28:17Andrew Manganelli?

  All right, we're back and we're ready to talk about dots, not Marquez's favorite candy. The new OpenAI Dev Day launch.

• 1:28:24Speaker 04

  I'm so hungry.

• 1:28:26Andrew Manganelli?

  And I have nothing else to really say about that. I just want to reference Marquez's favorite candy, which is an insane favorite.

• 1:28:31Speaker 04

  I'm glad you remembered. It's it's top three. It might be number one, though.

• 1:28:34Andrew Manganelli?

  It almost is Halloween.

• 1:28:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, about the time to start buying some dots again.

• 1:28:37David Imel?

  That's true.

• 1:28:38Speaker 04

  So we were just talking about Muse.

• 1:28:41Speaker 04

  So yeah, that again, but OpenAI. So they had this promo video, though, and these things are, they're really, really fuzzy. So you see, you see the back of David's laptop with the grass or whatever. Imagine like a macro shot, like really, really close up with the physics of like it blowing in the wind like. That's, that's what they started with. These little cute furry slash fuzzy dot characters. That essentially do the same thing. They are built by OpenAI, but they are little agents that can go around and do things for you. There's no physical representation of them yet. We still expect OpenAI to come out with some hardware. That'll probably have dots or whatever they want to call it.

• 1:29:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Like a hardware product.

• 1:29:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, like a hardware product, but yeah, that is, that is what we got launched.

• 1:29:21David Imel?

  That's basically what they are. They're more enterprise focused, I would say, because they're more focused around getting work tasks done for you. They go and do little coding things for you. It's only available to GPT Pro and business premium users and enterprise accounts, whereas Muse is just anybody and everybody.

• 1:29:38Speaker 04

  It was at the top of Instagram.

• 1:29:39David Imel?

  And then obviously, like Muse is going to work best with meta products and meta products are all consumer products. So it can reorganize your Instagram for you. It can do whatever on your meta stuff. But dots is sort of OpenAI's version of this, mostly made for coding and things like that.

• 1:29:55Speaker 04

  The demo video is heavy work stuff.

• 1:29:57David Imel?

  Work.

• 1:29:58Speaker 04

  Triage my inbox, make sure my calendar, re-time my meetings. I can make my daughters recital, stuff like that.

• 1:30:04David Imel?

  This is where I actually feel that the agentic stuff kind of separates between people who do like businessy work and people who are just average consumers, because I've never been able to find a lot of use cases for all of these like generalized agents. But everyone I talked to who is like, works in marketing or works in like PR or works in like, you know, makes a lot of slide decks for a living or like has to analyze a bunch of data, they use these things constantly and they're trying, they're constantly like singing their praises to me like, oh, I have, I have all these agents triaging this and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, I have nothing in my life that I want to use this for. I have no idea what I would use this for.

• 1:30:45Speaker 04

  I also have this weird, I don't know if it's a fear, but like in a world where these agents are emailing on my behalf and like moving things around and communicating for me. I'm gonna like see this person and they're gonna be like, they're gonna like reference something that they think that I wrote, but that I didn't write and I don't even know got written on my behalf. And I just never want that to happen.

• 1:31:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:09Speaker 04

  Is that not a concern?

• 1:31:11David Imel?

  Like I live by my calendar, right?

• 1:31:13Speaker 04

  Same.

• 1:31:14David Imel?

  But I also create all the events on my calendar.

• 1:31:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I send every email myself.

• 1:31:20David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:20Speaker 04

  And like, there's a world where this is triaging, this is answering, this is following up, this is sending emails on your behalf. And then I'm gonna see that person.

• 1:31:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:29Speaker 04

  And they're gonna be like, oh, that was funny, that joke you made about, wow, yeah, like I don't want that to happen ever.

• 1:31:36David Imel?

  Yeah, and I feel that agents and personal and like assistants are best suited for people that are high power enough or high status enough to already have a personal assistant, because there are like, there are people with high status jobs who have people that book meetings for them. You know, there's those services like Calendly where it's like, here's my general availability. You can book a time and I will be there. I cannot do that.

• 1:32:01Speaker 04

  I think that's how I would actually like this to operate. I would like it to be like, I would like it to jump on a thread as like a new person and be like, hi, I'm the assistant. And this is something that, that Google tried with the call feature where it would be like, it would call a restaurant and it'd be like, I am someone's virtual assistant and they would hang up because they're like, no, I don't want to do that. But instead it had to pretend to be a human to get through. And I feel like that's the same thing with email thing, but flipped. I don't want it to email as me, but I would be more comfortable if it emailed on the thread by getting added to the thread and then helped coordinate, all right, these are Marquez's times and availability, and then I could jump in later.

• 1:32:38Andrew Manganelli?

  But then you're like, that's like saying to the person emailing you like, I don't have time for you. I feel like that is immediately.

• 1:32:45David Imel?

  Depends on what the thing is, scheduling stuff.

• 1:32:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Sure, but if you like really, these, I think people saying this is triaging my inbox wanted to like answer everything. And the minute I see a, this was answered by dots or Muse, where I see like dots or Muse come in and it's like, Andrew can't do blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, cool. Uh, screw me, I guess.

• 1:33:05David Imel?

  The other, which you rather know or not know, I guess.

• 1:33:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, the other problem with that is that you don't want your agent to decide who can book a meeting with you and who shouldn't be booking a meeting with you, because we get a lot of emails every single day who want to book a lot of meetings with us.

• 1:33:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Marquez says say yes to everything every single month.

• 1:33:20David Imel?

  I just tell Muse, say yes to everything this month. That's a disaster.

• 1:33:23Speaker 04

  I would say that my like response rate in my email is probably less than 1%. The amount of people who email me, I probably respond to less than 1% of them. So I just don't want an agent, you know, just being like, book a time, book a time.

• 1:33:36Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll take one step further. You're worried about, you know, it's sending on behalf of you and then meeting that person. This isn't connected to Teams and Slack. At what point are just two things talking to each other? Like, when are agents not just talking to agents? And then your agents are planning things for you and telling some other person's agent that you're gonna do this. And now I'm just getting a list of commands from my agent to make it look like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

• 1:34:02Speaker 04

  Effectively what happened with that Muse Facebook Marketplace thing, because the agent told the guy, I'll be right down, even though it wasn't actually him.

• 1:34:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:09Speaker 04

  And so he wasn't right down and he got very mad.

• 1:34:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Is OpenAI's whole Microsoft Teams just a bunch of agents talking to each other and them just walking around the office until an agent tells them to do something?

• 1:34:19Speaker 04

  A lot of people who use these like swarms of agents and stuff do have room, like Slack rooms where the agents are just coordinating.

• 1:34:26David Imel?

  Oh, that's wild.

• 1:34:26Speaker 04

  This is the, the modern, I'll have my people talk to your people.

• 1:34:29David Imel?

  Yes.

• 1:34:31Speaker 04

  So I'll have my agent talk to you.

• 1:34:32David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, so surprisingly, that was like, you know, they had a few other little things. They now have a $500 a month plan instead of just a $200 a month plan.

• 1:34:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Jesus.

• 1:34:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, there are a lot of people that were really capping that $200 a month plan. And a few other little things, but I was actually surprised there weren't more big updates. I thought we might see a little glimpse at their hardware product, because it's been a while now. Like they made that romance video in San Francisco with Joni, I have a long time ago.

• 1:35:00David Imel?

  Yeah, that little picture, that black and white picture they took.

• 1:35:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Do you know how many people are spending 200 or $500 a month on this?

• 1:35:06Speaker 04

  I have no idea.

• 1:35:06Andrew Manganelli?

  A lot, right?

• 1:35:07Speaker 04

  Probably a lot.

• 1:35:08Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree with you now. Duo is gonna sell like hotcakes. People can pay $200 for a bunch of.

• 1:35:12Speaker 04

  500.

• 1:35:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, messing them up every day.

• 1:35:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, four months, four months of ChatGPT premium or iPhone.

• 1:35:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Bro, you can have two agents talk to each other on your duo. They each get their own screen.

• 1:35:23Speaker 04

  They just get the side of a screen.

• 1:35:24David Imel?

  I guess it's theoretically a business expense, right? I mean, the duo could also be a business expense.

• 1:35:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I expense my Anthropic account. Yeah, fair.

• 1:35:31Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll send you the bill.

• 1:35:34Speaker 04

  To myself.

• 1:35:34David Imel?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 1:35:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I don't know. You want to talk about this last story real quick, Andrew?

• 1:35:40Andrew Manganelli?

  That's Ellis.

• 1:35:41Speaker 04

  Oh, Ellis.

• 1:35:42Speaker 06

  It's less of a story, more a quick shout out, because we talked about him before in the past, YouTuber, musician, hacktivist, men in many hats, Ben Jordan. Mostly I think of him as a guy who's just like really, really, really good at making YouTube videos. Testified before some subcommittee of Congress this week about flock cameras and the need to regulate them and put third-party auditing measures in place. It was just really good. I feel like you see YouTubers in public and sometimes they don't always represent us well. Like YouTuber in the real world is sort of like a dangerous thing sometimes.

• 1:36:23Speaker 06

  And so the fact that we had someone from the platform that was able to so eloquently express themselves and, and, and stick up for people. I shout out, man, that was, that was great. That was great.

• 1:36:34Andrew Manganelli?

  That was just one of the A B tests of that video. The other one, he was pro flock.

• 1:36:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, true. You can find his testimony.

• 1:36:41Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll link it in the show notes.

• 1:36:42Speaker 06

  You've probably seen it on Twitter already or something like that.

• 1:36:47Speaker 04

  I'm glad I'm still calling it Twitter.

• 1:36:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 1:36:51Speaker 04

  On that note, what else starts with a T? Let's see. Oh, yeah, I remember. Trivia.

• 1:36:57David Imel?

  Testosterone.

• 1:36:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, what do you mean?

• 1:37:00Speaker 06

  Why do you pick that T word?

• 1:37:02Speaker 04

  Because a lot of people say there's.

• 1:37:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Testimony, okay.

• 1:37:04Speaker 04

  A lot of people say there's no testosterone on this.

• 1:37:05David Imel?

  Twitter, that's what I meant. Twitter.

• 1:37:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Twitter, you're right.

• 1:37:09Speaker 04

  It's very smelly in here. No.

• 1:37:11Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 1:37:12Speaker 04

  But.

• 1:37:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Not yet.

• 1:37:13Speaker 04

  It would be.

• 1:37:13David Imel?

  Do you have a marker?

• 1:37:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, you do. Yeah.

• 1:37:15Andrew Manganelli?

  We each have one. Oh, you have one. Okay.

• 1:37:17David Imel?

  I got two.

• 1:37:18Speaker 06

  All right. We all know it. We all love it. It's the beach ball. It comes up when your computer is not responding, but it wasn't always a beach ball. That was the wrong button.

• 1:37:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Adam.

• 1:37:35David Imel?

  It's okay.

• 1:37:36Speaker 06

  I normally do all this any week, like anyway, I don't understand why Adam being gone is making this so difficult. I think it's because he's my better half.

• 1:37:45David Imel?

  Oh.

• 1:37:45Andrew Manganelli?

  I thought you were gonna say best friend.

• 1:37:48Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:37:51Speaker 06

  I don't think he would say that either, but he is my better half, which is a funny thing to say because he did, uh, is that doxing if I say?

• 1:38:00David Imel?

  I don't.

• 1:38:00Andrew Manganelli?

  I wasn't gonna say it.

• 1:38:02David Imel?

  I don't know.

• 1:38:03Andrew Manganelli?

  I was gonna like, he gets back.

• 1:38:05Speaker 06

  I'm gonna bleep it.

• 1:38:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Let's just bleep it.

• 1:38:06David Imel?

  He just got.

• 1:38:07Speaker 06

  I'd have to redo the waiting music again.

• 1:38:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, okay. Cool.

• 1:38:15Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm the idiot that has to edit this episode, so we'll see if I can actually get that out of there.

• 1:38:19David Imel?

  You're editing?

• 1:38:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:38:20David Imel?

  Wow.

• 1:38:21Speaker 06

  Flip him around and read, boys.

• 1:38:23David Imel?

  I don't think I went back far enough. Oh.

• 1:38:25Andrew Manganelli?

  We all have a different answer?

• 1:38:27David Imel?

  Hmm, I think it's.

• 1:38:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 1:38:29David Imel?

  I think it's that.

• 1:38:31Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, Marquez, you go first.

• 1:38:32David Imel?

  I didn't, I don't think I went back fast, far enough, because I remember the beach ball, which was rainbow beach ball. And then when I go backwards from that, I remember like a single color beach ball. It was like purple and lighter purple. So I have like a purple petaled flower circle thing.

• 1:38:46Speaker 06

  I'm sorry, that was not the answer I was looking for, but that is triggering a weird memory. I'm gonna go in and see if there's something to that.

• 1:38:54David Imel?

  Okay, Andrew.

• 1:38:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I had hourglass.

• 1:38:57Speaker 06

  Okay, another one that was not the answer I was looking for, and I cannot find any evidence on a preliminary search that there was ever an hour.

• 1:39:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Does there's ever an hourglass?

• 1:39:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:39:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, I wanna look.

• 1:39:07Speaker 06

  It might have been a Windows cursor, because I do remember.

• 1:39:11Andrew Manganelli?

  I really thought I remembered like, old Mac, and I thought it like spun and like.

• 1:39:16David Imel?

  I remember that too.

• 1:39:16Speaker 06

  I remember there being little grains of sand.

• 1:39:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I drew the grains of sand. That's why I wanted, I do think Windows had an hourglass, but I thought I remembered like an old 2D Mac one.

• 1:39:28Speaker 06

  Okay, David, you put.

• 1:39:29David Imel?

  I put clock.

• 1:39:30Speaker 06

  And I don't know how to adjudicate that because it's not the right answer, but it's also not the wrong.

• 1:39:36David Imel?

  He doesn't need the points that bad.

• 1:39:37Speaker 06

  Because the correct answer is a wristwatch. But a wristwatch.

• 1:39:42David Imel?

  Is a clock.

• 1:39:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Let me see.

• 1:39:43Speaker 06

  Is a clock.

• 1:39:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, let's see. Hold on, Mac wristwatch.

• 1:39:48Speaker 06

  Well.

• 1:39:48Andrew Manganelli?

  That was a stupid thing.

• 1:39:49David Imel?

  There is an Apple wristwatch, so.

• 1:39:51Andrew Manganelli?

  That's kinda sick, not gonna lie.

• 1:39:53David Imel?

  That's.

• 1:39:53Andrew Manganelli?

  The Mac OS wristwatch?

• 1:39:55David Imel?

  Yeah, well.

• 1:39:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Um.

• 1:39:56David Imel?

  Loading. That looks like a cursor, a clock to me. That looks like.

• 1:40:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, what?

• 1:40:01David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:02Andrew Manganelli?

  No, I, I think you give it to David. I, I do see it has the band. So like, it definitely is a watch versus a clock, but I think you give that to David.

• 1:40:11Speaker 06

  Yes, the brain trust has decided you get the point.

• 1:40:14David Imel?

  Thank you, Claude.

• 1:40:15Speaker 06

  It's weird doing my own score update and then going right back to my question. But with that one point, Marquez and Andrew, your points stay the same at six and nine, respectively.

• 1:40:27David Imel?

  Nice, nice.

• 1:40:28Speaker 06

  David is Max Verstappen-ing this game with 14 points.

• 1:40:35David Imel?

  It's Tiger out the 2012 Masters right now.

• 1:40:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Wow, I really thought we were all gonna have the same answer for that.

• 1:40:40David Imel?

  Damn.

• 1:40:40Speaker 06

  Me too. Um, that was a modified version of the original question, which was.

• 1:40:45David Imel?

  The Rolling Stones.

• 1:40:46Speaker 06

  What, which was what time was on the wristwatch?

• 1:40:49David Imel?

  Oh.

• 1:40:49Speaker 06

  Because it was not animated.

• 1:40:50David Imel?

  3:00 PM?

• 1:40:51Speaker 06

  It was 9:00 PM.

• 1:40:52David Imel?

  Oh.

• 1:40:52Speaker 06

  Yes. Uh, question number two.

• 1:40:55David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:40:55Speaker 06

  Uh, system settings, AKA system preferences, as it was once known, uh, as a bunch of gears interlocking. But before it was that, this is the early days of OSX, like 2001 to 2003-ish. Uh, what was that icon? Or you don't even have to describe the icon, just tell me what physical object was present in it.

• 1:41:19David Imel?

  Huh. This one I'm pretty stuck on.

• 1:41:22Speaker 06

  I did not remember this. I had to go into a wiki.

• 1:41:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Settings. Oh, I gotta guess.

• 1:41:34David Imel?

  What would embody a setting?

• 1:41:36Andrew Manganelli?

  A setting.

• 1:41:37David Imel?

  Give us a guess. Should be a sunset or something.

• 1:41:41Speaker 06

  All right, flip him and read.

• 1:41:43Andrew Manganelli?

  I almost wrote that, but I.

• 1:41:45David Imel?

  I know that, yeah. Should I go first?

• 1:41:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, say it out loud.

• 1:41:48David Imel?

  I said floppy disk, and I know that that's the save icon, but for some reason it's wrong.

• 1:41:53Andrew Manganelli?

  It went into my head also, but I was like, no, I think that's been saved for way too.

• 1:41:57David Imel?

  It has been, yeah.

• 1:41:58Andrew Manganelli?

  I just wrote a computer.

• 1:41:59David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:01Speaker 06

  I'm gonna come back to that.

• 1:42:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 1:42:02Speaker 06

  Marquez.

• 1:42:03Andrew Manganelli?

  I like that better than my last one.

• 1:42:04Speaker 06

  What did you put?

• 1:42:05David Imel?

  I scratched out one thing. I wrote a hammer, like a tool.

• 1:42:08Speaker 06

  No, that would be fine.

• 1:42:10David Imel?

  That's like the develop, that's the Apple developer app is a hammer. It is now. Yeah.

• 1:42:17Andrew Manganelli?

  I like the idea that you just bash your computer with a hammer.

• 1:42:20David Imel?

  It felt like a tool, like a screwdriver or something next to a computer.

• 1:42:23Andrew Manganelli?

  No.

• 1:42:23David Imel?

  You're adjusting.

• 1:42:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Actually, I feel like screwdriver would make more sense.

• 1:42:26David Imel?

  Screwdriver would be really good.

• 1:42:27Andrew Manganelli?

  It would be harder to show in that amount of pixels.

• 1:42:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:32Speaker 06

  Just to make it a closer game. I'm sorry, Marquez.

• 1:42:36David Imel?

  No, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine.

• 1:42:38Speaker 06

  The answer I was looking for was a light switch. Uh.

• 1:42:42David Imel?

  Oh.

• 1:42:42Speaker 06

  Original OSX settings icon was a light switch right next to a large Apple logo. However, there was one singular Mac OSX developer preview.

• 1:42:54David Imel?

  Specifically.

• 1:42:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't think you should even give me these points.

• 1:42:57Speaker 06

  Whose settings icon was a computer.

• 1:43:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Computer.

• 1:43:01David Imel?

  What's a computer?

• 1:43:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Changed the settings.

• 1:43:04David Imel?

  Oh, the light switch, interesting.

• 1:43:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Where's the light switch? What do I have to search for it?

• 1:43:08David Imel?

  From 01 to 07, it was an Apple logo next to a light switch. Then it changed to gears.

• 1:43:13Andrew Manganelli?

  I do remember that.

• 1:43:14David Imel?

  Hmm, I do.

• 1:43:16Andrew Manganelli?

  It's like a light switch, but on the.

• 1:43:19David Imel?

  Like a panel.

• 1:43:20Andrew Manganelli?

  What's the thing that goes around a light switch? Why can't I think of it?

• 1:43:23Speaker 06

  What is that?

• 1:43:24Andrew Manganelli?

  AirDrop sucks. I literally can't even open this.

• 1:43:26David Imel?

  That's why we blip.

• 1:43:27Speaker 06

  Oh, I, I canceled it because it asked me for a code. I didn't wanna read the code on.

• 1:43:31David Imel?

  Canceled.

• 1:43:31Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, here it is.

• 1:43:32David Imel?

  Another week, another zero points for me on trivia, but that's okay. That's okay. I'm gonna get some eventually. I appreciate you guys' support in the comments. By the way, we're A B testing this, and in version C of this video, I got a lot of points. So you should refresh until you get that one. That's true. Anyway, thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Uh, welcome to Techtober, baby. We're just getting started. See you soon.

• 1:43:54Speaker 06

  Woo!

• 1:43:55David Imel?

  Bye.

• 1:43:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Waveform was produced by Ellis Rovin. We're partnered with Vox Media Podcast Network, and our outro music was created by Vane Sill.

• 1:44:01David Imel?

  Bingo.

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

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