Life's A Fight. Don’t Let It Break You: Dolph Lundgren On Trauma, Stardom & Cancer

Dolph Lundgren is an actor, martial artist, and chemical engineer, best known as Ivan Drago in Rocky IV. This conversation explores the distance between the man on the poster and the boy underneath: the violent childhood, the Fulbright he traded for Manhattan, the delirium of instant fame, the steroids and stunts that followed, a fatal prognosis reversed by a second opinion, and the mirror work that finally took. He offers a quiet rebuke to everything young men are currently being sold about strength. Dolph's still a warrior – but a peaceful warrior. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: WHOOP: Join now and get one month free👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain👉🏼https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll Go Brewing: Get 50% OFF your first subscription order to Go Brewing's Beer Club👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com/richroll50 Momentous: Get up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:04Speaker 01

  He said, "Yeah, you probably have about three years left." But I can't believe that I was that close to dying.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Dolph Lundgren, one of Hollywood's best-known action heroes.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Up there with the most iconic action stars of the 1980s.

• 1:16Rich Roll?

  There's no one like him, period, end of story.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  I wanted to get away from my dad, and he kind of kicked me, and I flew into some hook shelf and hit my head, and I was bleeding. I could hijack this feeling to play an action character. What if I make it like the ultimate lab creation? I must break you. I must break you. It turned out to be kidney cancer. This guy says it's over, but what about... Let me try this person. I found out later that those are the wrong drugs. I was misdiagnosed. Within four weeks, everything was shrinking. Your job as a man is to be in the red, to give more than you were given, to love more than you were loved. And maybe it came back to me, you know, from the universe. And that's why I was given a second chance.

• 2:05Rich Roll?

  You know, I thought I knew who you were. And then getting into your book and learning as much as I could about your life and the high highs and the low lows and this kind of Odysseus-like journey that you've been on, it's really remarkable. And it's so rich in its texture in terms of kind of what you've weathered and endured to really, you know, again, in the spirit of Odysseus, to like return home to yourself. You know? It's a very, it's a very human story. And it's really a story of trauma and healing fundamentally.

• 2:43Rich Roll?

  You know, this reconciliation between, you know, Hans, this young child, growing up in a small town, you know, in Sweden, and suffering, you know, suffering the abuse that you suffered, then armoring yourself in, you know, the Drago costume and being this indestructible, you know, action hero who was just impenetrable and this immovable object, right? Stoic to the core, but not impenetrable to, you know, the kind of trauma that was unhealed and that powered you to great heights, but ultimately, you know, our strengths become our Achilles' heel and like reckoning with that to, you know, really become this integrated

• 3:29Rich Roll?

  human being. Like, it is a hero's journey. The humble beginnings to, you know, stardom to the low moments, you know, it lends itself to a perfect three-act structure.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Slaying of the father.

• 3:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Meeting the sorceress. You know, traveling far, faraway lands.

• 3:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Near-death experience. There are all these steps on that road that I now have...

• 3:56Rich Roll?

  The sirens?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  The sirens.

• 3:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Studio 54. The sirens. Yeah, it's interesting. It's, uh, it was well thought out by Campbell when he kind of mapped that out because it's true for everybody, but I think for some, it's a little more palpable than for others, I guess.

• 4:16Rich Roll?

  Your greatest role is playing yourself in the movie of your life. Like, this is the movie that needs to be in development. Like, reading your book, there were so many, you know, stories that you tell where I could just see it. I mean, when you get this Fulbright scholarship to get your PhD in chemical engineering at MIT, and you're pulling up, you know, to MIT on a motorcycle in a suit made out of leather and rubber designed by Versace, and you have Grace Jones on the back, and you climb off that motorcycle to go into this storied institution of, you know, geeks and brainiacs. I mean, I just, like, that is the most cinematic thing.

• 5:00Rich Roll?

  Like, I can just see it, like, you know, the contrast of, you know, the collision of these, these two worlds.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Collisions, yeah. It was an internal collision for me too, because I, I wanted to satisfy my dad, and that was his favorite school, MIT, and he was an engineer as well. And I wanted to also kind of deliver on all those years of studying I'd put in. But then I knew on a deep level that I, it wasn't really for me. I had a different destiny, something waiting for me. I didn't know what it was, but I knew that I had to make a decision. Because if I had started and kind of focused on the PhD, that would have been, that would have been it then. I mean, somebody else would have played Ivan Drago.

• 5:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. A lot of people, well, not a lot, but a certain amount of people could attend MIT and get their PhD and, you know, go work on the space shuttle, which I know you did when you were at Clemson for a period of time. But there's only one guy who's got Grace Jones on the back of his motorcycle at a very specific time in history where culture was popping off in New York City in the way that it was. Like, I have a very romantic relationship and, and like yearning. Like, I feel like I was born a little bit too late. Like, I wish that I was, you know, at Studio 54 during that time and, you know, navigating

• 6:33Rich Roll?

  Warhol's inner circle at the factory and all of these experiences that you've had. I probably would have died if that happened, if that, you know, maybe I was, maybe God spared me that. But, uh, but I really like love hearing those stories of that very special time where culture was being formed in real time by a certain cast of characters that were kind of haunting, you know, Lower Manhattan for a good decade.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course, I didn't plan to be part of it. But you're right. I, I thought about it afterwards as well, how it was, New York, Manhattan was not, hadn't turned corporate yet. It was, it was, you know, there were some talented people there, but it was, it was simpler in one way. Like, I was in the West Village Meat Packing District, right below the 14th Street on the, on the West Side. And they had all those kind of disintegrating peers that were, you know, there was all kinds of dating and different activities going on.

• 7:33Rich Roll?

  A lot of prostitution activity.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  At night. And then you had the West Side Highway was still up. They tore that down maybe a few years later. But I remember getting up at like five in the morning. I lived on Bank Street, Bank and West, and I would get up to go for a run. And I would run down Washington or Washington Street, I think it was. I went all the way down to, to the World Trade Center. And I would turn around, right by the World Trade Center, and run back. And I know that I, I had to be really careful because you could get like jumped by somebody, you know, in the street there in Tribeca. It was very rough. So I kind of had kept a good pace up, I remember, through Tribeca.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  And of course, now Tribeca is, you know, super expensive and gentrified, and the World Trade Center is gone. So, yeah, it is, it is a different city, for sure.

• 8:28Rich Roll?

  And you are navigating all that insanity and chaos sober, essentially. Like, everyone's out of their minds on cocaine, et cetera. And you're at Studio 54 like, like just a cold, stone, sober fox.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  I was, you know, uh, that was the thing, that I was wondering why all these people could stay up so late, you know, like, wow, they have such stamina here, you know, at like six in the morning. And they were looking at me like, how is he up? Like, we're sitting across from him in a limo. And then, you know, like you said, studio was obviously, uh, I think I ended up in the back room with Rebel and a few of his friends, you know, doing drugs. But I, I didn't partake in any of that until much later, actually, than, so after I got famous. But I, I was always, you know, I went for that run at five o'clock, even if I got home

• 9:27Speaker 01

  at three. So I was pretty regimented all the way through.

• 9:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The inner athlete never sleeps.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Never, never slept.

• 9:37Rich Roll?

  Um, how long between, okay, I'm in New York and the Rocky IV situation coming along?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  I think it came along in 84. So it's a year. I come to New York in 80, right the end of 82, 83, and then about a year later, uh, after having quit MIT and having started acting, I was up for a boxing movie. You know, one of many calls I got, you know, and I was just standing in a line with a bunch of guys, and I come to a table, and there's a woman sitting there with a, with a pad, and she's like, I guess my name was there, and she, she said, um, you know, Hans Lundgren, how tall are you? And I was like, um, 6'5", and she's like, too tall, next. And I was like, oh, shit.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  You know, I looked behind her, and there's a handwritten sign, Rocky, Roman numeral four. And I was like, oh, shit, a Rocky movie. It's like, I love the Rocky movies. I'd actually listened to Rocky III, to Eye of the Tiger, when I was getting ready to fight in Australia, only a year and a half, a year earlier. So I, I then, through my acting coach, managed to...

• 10:56Speaker 01

  He set up a dinner with this guy, John Herzfeld, who was a friend of Stallone's. And John immediately said, you know, you're the guy Sly has been looking for. You know, and I said, well, I was there, but they turned me down. He's like, would you have any photos of yourself? And I said, well, I got something, but it's done in the village. And he says, well, I can get it. So I got on my bike and I motorcycle, went down and got this one eight by 10. And that's the one Sly eventually got hold of. Six months later, when I thought it was all, you know, nothing was going to come out of it. I was, I was in England doing the movie, The Bond Picture.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  And then I got the call back and I went to see Stallone and, and, um, at, it was at Paramount. Cause I remember coming in on the taxi and from the airport and, you know, you see the Hollywood sign behind the studio and I was like, whoa, okay. And I was going to see Sylvester Stallone and obviously he came out, he was all tanned, long hair and I was starstruck like, oh shit, you know? And he's like, I got 5,000 guys up for this role. Like, okay. And, you know, he had all these binders around his office because it was before, you know, digital and, uh, and he took a look at me and I, I know later he told me that he had

• 12:15Speaker 01

  this idea of this kind of Russian bear, like this hairy monster. And then, so it didn't work, but he said later, when he, he looked at me and he started thinking, wait a second, what if I make it like the ultimate lab creation, ultimate human being versus who is like a perfect specimen versus Rocky, who is like the imperfect, you know?

• 12:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Specimen, American.

• 12:40Rich Roll?

  The Russian science experiment.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:43Rich Roll?

  Chemically engineered.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Chemical engineer. He came up with that when, he said later, when I was in his office and then I had to audition, had to memorize a monologue and he said, you gotta put on some weight because I was a bit skinny, uh, because I was doing a lot of running, you know, as I get told at five in the morning, I was running and you know, you can't really get really jacked. So I had to do that, but yeah, that's how we started and, uh, six months, and so I trained for six months.

• 13:13Rich Roll?

  All right, but hold on, let me, let me interrupt. Uh, cause there's so much here. I mean, there, there's a couple of lessons, uh, that come from, that come out of that story. Um, the first of which is there's always a third door, like the casting director had already next to you, right? And, you know, there's, there's this process of figuring out an end run, you know, between Herzfeld and your acting coach and figuring out how to get to Stallone and like this conviction, like, no, actually this guy's right, you know, just because this casting director said you're too tall, like you really need to reevaluate this and getting it to Stallone and having Stallone like rewire his thinking around, you know, what this character, uh, you know, could be, you know, changing his vision for it.

• 13:55Rich Roll?

  Um, and then in the audition, you talk about approaching it, uh, with this stillness, like this immobility, like this idea that you learned in, in, in your study of acting, that the power is in like the non-reaction and the other people who were auditioning were, you know, kind of overacting or whatever. And by you just being still, that ends up being what cinches it because there's something menacing about that, the quietness of it.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Hmm, yes. Uh, so there are two parts to character, obviously one, which I already had, which was, he was a fighter. So I was already a European kickboxing or karate champion, so I could move really well. Let's say for a big white guy, I was really had, you know, good coordination and so forth. So Stallone obviously kind of knew that, well, he could read, he could see that, uh, because it's hard to teach someone how to fight. It's for them to look right, you know, it's difficult. And the second part, then of course, as you know, who was his character and, and Warren

• 15:06Speaker 01

  was very, very perceptive, Warren Robertson, my coach, because he studied the other guys, you know, Apollo Creed, Mr. T and everybody's very loud, I'm going to kill you, I'm gonna, you know, uh, you know, uh, you know, you're, you're dead meat. Everything was loud and kind of aggressive. So he, he said, you know, um, you know, you just, and he had studied with, um, Marlon Brando and, uh, Marilyn Monroe in Actor's Studio back in the day. And he did say that Brando had this thing where he said, you know, just because the director says action doesn't mean you have to do anything.

• 15:43Rich Roll?

  Cause he's, that's pretty good.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, doesn't mean you have to do anything. Cause he's, he's famous for, which I read much later that he would, when, when the director said action, he would, you know, he, he really knew his talent because he would just, he would just walk off, off stage, off the set and start talking to, uh, to one of the grips or something, uh, until he felt like he was relaxed. Then he would come in and deliver the dialogues. He was very clever, right? I mean, obviously the best ever. So Warren said, we are, you know, you're so powerful that, you know, some of these Russian officers, they have that stoic kind of chin up, you know, hero of the Soviet Union kind of, so if you kind of just stand there and deliver the dialogue and play the internal

• 16:31Speaker 01

  monologue of the Soviet state is forced to me, they took me when I was a kid, away from my parents, they made me a fighter, I don't want to do this, but I have to do it. I'm forced to say these words. If all that is interior, is internal and you just say the line, you know? I must break you. If you say the line, a very still, it has a lot of, carries a lot of power. So obviously I trusted him and I went to the audition and it had two other Russian guys who were also up for it. And they were, yeah, they were saying, I will kill you, I will break you in half.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  But I played it very internal and, um, yeah, and it, it was powerful, I think, and people, you know? I think I've seen that once, uh, audition, I saw part of that. They used that speech for the teaser trailer that came out later. When I just stand there and say, you know, my name is Drago, you know, I'm a fighter from the Soviet Union, blah, blah, blah. And, uh, yeah, so I got the role.

• 17:37Rich Roll?

  Well, well, let's take it back to the beginning. Uh, I want to hear a little bit about your upbringing, uh, in Sweden, um, because I think it would surprise a lot of people.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, my upbringing, well, I, I was brought up in a, um, upper middle class home. My dad was an engineer, he was an army officer, um, good looking, tall guy. My mom was kind of pretty, she was a language teacher, uh, but she was, she had been that and now she was a housewife. I had three siblings. My dad had a, had another son in an early, from an early marriage. And I think that marriage had ended because I think he beat his first wife and the first time he hit her, I think she took the kid and split.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  This is in the, would be in the forties, early fifties. Uh, so when I was born, um, you know, I think I heard from my mom, uh, I think on their honeymoon, this is before I was born, um, they were in Scotland and they took a tour in Scotland and this is 1955. So 10 years after World War Two. And, um, and one little anecdote was that they, they couldn't get service anywhere, you know, like they went to restaurants and they would just sit there for an hour. And then finally some woman came up and said, we don't serve Germans here. And then of course they were, you know, Swedish, so they had to explain that.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  But I think he, he, uh, something happened on the trip and he, he didn't talk to my mom for a, a week and that was on their honeymoon. So I think from then he was kind of abusive towards her. And I, I think he hit me the first time, I was probably around three or so. I, I was in front of the television, got it in his way and he kind of kicked me and I flew into some, some, some bookshelf and hit my head and I was bleeding. My mom's like screaming and, and then of course it just kept going. So there was nowhere to go as a kid, there were no hotlines in, in the sixties. Uh, my dad worked for the government, he had a kind of a good position in the, uh, Office

• 19:58Speaker 01

  of Budget and Man Management. Yeah, so I kind of got used to this physical abuse that, you know, later would serve me well, you know, but, you know, when I was a kid, obviously it's, I've learned later, you know, you're a little boy and you have a big guy my size come in and, and beat you up. It's like a near death experience, they say. So you get that PTSD, uh, of living in, in, um, under, um, kind of, um,

• 20:28Speaker 01

  In, let's say physically, you know, on insecure circumstances for a long time, like a soldier.

• 20:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there was no calling 911 back then. Uh, it was just figuring out how you're going to develop some survival strategies for this. Yeah. I mean, your descriptions of these incidents in the book are, are, you know, they're hard to read. Like it's, it's intense. It was not, you know, minor abuse like, and there's verbal abuse and he's telling you, you're a loser. And like, there's just all kinds of shit going on.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:01Rich Roll?

  And this resentment also that begins to breed towards your mother because she's supposed to protect you and you know, she's, she's sort of, you know, in her, uh, you know, having her own relationship with how she's trying to survive all of this at the same time. Extremely difficult, but, and your brain is still wiring, right? And you're trying to figure out like, how am I going to just get through the day? And you talk about developing this freeze response to all of this. We all know about like fight or flight, but there's a third way to interact with a traumatic, chaotic scenario.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yes, you're right. I, I learned about that much later that, you know, in nature, there is fight or flight. Say if you're a, if you're a gazelle and you're in Africa and you're being chased by a lion, there's, you know, you can fight back. Well, not, you can't do that if you're a gazelle because the lion's going to kill you. So you, you go for flight, but sometimes you'll see in a video, once the gazelle is taken by the lion, it stops fighting and it just, it's called freeze and you kind of go dead. And it's, it's sort of all your emotions disappear. And I guess in nature, either it could be a way to, to, to think, for, for the predator to think you're dead.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  So they stop, you know, like a bear, for instance, play dead, but it could also be to avoid the pain because that way, you know, you're going to die anyway. The lion's going to eat you, so you might as well, you know, calm down a little bit before it's over. I guess it's in there somewhere that humans have the same people, um, you know, soldiers as well, sometimes, you know, um, you can fight flight, but people freeze up too, like in a, in a gunfight.

• 22:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a, it's a disassociation. You hear this with rape victims also, like they leave their body, you know, it's the only way that they can like, kind of, you know, manage what's happening to them.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:06Rich Roll?

  In your case, like this ability to separate mind and body and disassociate and freeze ends up becoming a very powerful strategy when you become a martial artist and, you know, when you're doing your own stunts and you become this guy who can just suffer pain at will, right? And this is, you know, obviously powering you, you know, through stardom and all these other experiences. And it's just interesting how our unconscious response to trauma become strengths. And, you know, I'm sure on a conscious level, you're like, oh, this is what separates me from everybody. This is how I'm going to become special and distinguish myself. And it's only later in life where it catches up to you and you realize like this superpower

• 23:48Rich Roll?

  that I have is actually, uh, an Achilles heel that is like actually undoing me.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the, the same trauma that I can use to, I could hijack this feeling to be a better fighter, to play an action character to, to, uh, if I do an emotional scene in a movie, but that same, that same trauma can also make me, uh, you know, drink, do drugs, uh, you know, decide to, uh, go and, you know, spar with, uh, you know, 10 people, maybe when I haven't slept all night because I'm not going to say no. And I'll decide to do that stunt myself because I feel like I, I, I, I gotta do something.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  I'm antsy. I gotta fuck it. I don't care. I'll jump off the bus or I'll jump from the motorcycle to the truck. I don't care. Uh, and, uh, so obviously it's, or it can ruin a, a marriage, for instance, uh, quite easily. And that's, uh, you know, I've been through all those things.

• 24:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:54Rich Roll?

  There's a ego armoring piece to it as well. Like I can go to Studio 54 all night and still go running at five o'clock in the morning. And not only am I going to, you know, be the, the, you know, kind of ultimate, uh, warrior in this movie, I'm actually going to do all the stunts also, you know, like on top of that, uh, which is, which is empowering also, but you know, is kind of, you know, can be this megalomania that is going to spoil your relationships and, and, you know, kind of

• 25:24Speaker 01

  And your body.

• 25:24Rich Roll?

  Infect, uh, yeah. And, and destroy your body and the like. Yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Part of it is, is the trauma and part of it is some kind of male, I don't know, uh, testosterone bravado, trying to prove something, trying to prove my dad that he was wrong, you know, uh, a combination of all of those.

• 25:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How much of your ambition do you think is related to your relationship with your father? Like this drive that you, that you've had?

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think I had two things. I had the drive from my dad and then I had some kind of feeling from the beginning that life is very precious and very short. And here I am in this little town in Sweden and I'm not gonna, if I stay here, if I just stay here and do what my, my dad has done, I'm going to be very unhappy.

• 26:21Rich Roll?

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• 27:04Rich Roll?

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• 28:13Rich Roll?

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• 28:47Rich Roll?

  Did you have a premonition that there was a big life waiting for you when you were this kid growing up in Sweden? Or was it more, I just, I need to get out of this environment, you know? I have to go somewhere else or I'm never going to survive.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  I think it was the latter. Yeah. I just wanted to get out of Sweden. It was too small for me. I didn't want to be this abused little boy and who haunts, who, you know, felt bad about himself. And, uh, you know, I didn't want to, I didn't want to do that. And, um, I wanted to get away from my dad. Uh, and I think, you know, I got a scholarship to go to America when I was 18 to study chemistry and, uh, in Washington, Washington State University. And, and that's when, first time when people, they, they didn't know me, so I could be a different person and they kind of looked at me totally different, you know?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  And I think that's what drove me outside of Sweden. I, I think it's the, the fame part or the bigger life was like a slow kind of feeling that kind of grew, uh, from karate and then, uh, from doing some modeling. And then eventually when I met Grace and, uh, came to, to Manhattan.

• 30:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there was a lot of synchronicities along the way, like right place, right time for you. But even before that, before going to America to study, you know, you, your, your, your first kind of like initial reaction to this chaotic household was to act out like a normal teenager. You're stealing stuff, you're sniffing glue, you're getting into trouble, you know? Pretty standard fare, uh, but significant enough for there to be a bit of an intervention. And you end up like at your grandfather's house and, and, and that's really where you start to get sorted out a little bit. You're finding, uh, alternative father figures and you're realizing that you actually have

• 30:45Rich Roll?

  all this academic potential and you really, uh, begin to, uh, get a little bit more serious about the martial arts. And that feels like a really important period in your life, like, uh, you know, that set you up for everything that came afterwards. And this notion of father figures and mentors is a recurring theme throughout the book.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yes, I agree. Uh, yeah, I think my dad had, I suppose he realized that as I was getting older, pretty soon he was going to be in a fight with a young, young man or a boy who was.

• 31:19Rich Roll?

  You're going to kick his ass pretty soon. You better get him out of here.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, get this kid out of here. He's grown too fast. And I think that was part of it. And the other part was probably that he, maybe on a deep level, knew that it was his, it was his, um, And it was because of him that I was going through all this.

• 31:35Rich Roll?

  You think he was consciously aware of that?

• 31:37Speaker 01

  I think he was subconsciously, and I think maybe he loved me and wanted to, you know, saw that I was gonna self-destruct if I had stayed. Maybe because I was, you know, drinking, running away from home, sniffing glue, doing all this stuff that, you know, some of my friends from those days are dead now. They never made it. So in one way, he had some compassion, I think, on the low level. On the deep level, except it could have been self-preservation, some of it too. He didn't want me to beat him up, but I'm not sure which, but it turned out to be a good thing for me, obviously to save my life.

• 32:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You find your, your calling in the classroom and in the dojo, basically. And, you know, like I learned so much about you, like I knew that you were like an athlete scholar, but I didn't realize like, oh, you were European champion twice, two years in a row, like eighty and eighty-one in karate. Not only, you know, did you graduate with a chemical engineering degree, like you had, you know, stints in, in America, and, you know, where you were furthering your studies and then this Fulbright Scholarship opportunity. Like, there's a sliding door where you just become this top scientist. It's crazy.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  It was. Yeah, I think part of that was, I was sort of, I wanted to prove my dad wrong, I think, that I wasn't useless and.

• 33:10Rich Roll?

  How'd that go?

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, I got admitted to MIT by, on a Fulbright Scholarship.

• 33:16Rich Roll?

  Did he give it up for you then? Did he ever, did he, did he ever get to the point where he could say, you did it, son, or?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did. He did twice. When I won the European Championships, he was, you know, he, he was impressed. By that, that time, he was probably, he was fifty some years old. He's kind of mellowed out a little bit. And then I got admitted to MIT, had a Fulbright Scholarship. And, you know, I think he was, he was super impressed and I think on a deep level, he had had some of these ambitions. He'd studied in, in Germany, I think, when he was young, but he could never afford to go anywhere. He always wanted to go to America, but I think that I, he felt like I had maybe fulfilled some of his ambitions.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  You know how it goes with parents, right? We were friendly. I mean, by that time, there was no animosity at all. You know, I kind of forgiven him because in martial arts also, you know, it's not about,

• 34:24Speaker 01

  obviously I was, by then I was stronger than him and I, you, you're not supposed to just be aggressive and beat somebody up for what they did twenty years ago. So I never, that never entered my mind, really.

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  He ends up, you know, dying quite tragically.

• 34:41Rich Roll?

  Bipolar, maybe schizophrenic.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. He had.

• 34:45Rich Roll?

  Tinfoil on the windows.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  He, he ended up staying and after he divorced my mom, she moved out and he lived in this old house where he had like.

• 34:54Rich Roll?

  They divorced. You didn't even know they divorced.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  No, they didn't even tell us. So we didn't know about it, or the kids didn't know. Because I think what happened was he got fired from his job, like early retired, early retirement, because he blew up on somebody there. And my mom had inherited some money from her mother and her dad. My grandfather on that side, he was, he was an inventor, actually. He had some, invented some radio, various, those big radio gramophones, you know, where they, they used to have in the fifties and forties. And so he inherited, she inherited some money. So I think my dad kind of divorced her,

• 35:37Speaker 01

  got custody of, of all the assets and then, you know, kind of moved her aside. And I think that's where part of it was financial reason he did that, I think. So all of this was obviously, you know, not very nice for the kids, but especially he was just unhappy. And he ended up in a mental hospital in London at the end. And I was there. I visited him a few times. This is, you know, when I'd been in the business for almost twenty years. And he was sort of in a different world towards the end. And, but I, I was told by my therapist that, you know, his type of bipolar,

• 36:19Speaker 01

  you know, conditions, you can medicate it and he can, but, you know, he would, he refused to take medication. So, yeah, he died a lonely man, but I mean, fortunately, he was a bit, he was in his own world in one way. I think nature mercifully kind of just made him not really understand what was going on.

• 36:41Rich Roll?

  Speaking of mercy, you, through all this work that you've done with therapy and, and, and kind of trying to make peace with your upbringing and, and resolve and heal this trauma.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:55Rich Roll?

  You know, a big piece in that is, is, is recognizing that, you know, he was the victim of his own, you know, kind of experience growing up and his emotional needs weren't met and his frustrations and anger and resentment. You know, he, he didn't have the outlets for help and healing that you've had. And so he's acting out on those impulses and you're on the receiving end of that. Hurt people, hurt people, as they often say. And you found a way to internalize whatever pain you were experiencing and channel it in productive ways. Like you can hurt people on screen and it's not really hurting people. Well, kind of, we're gonna get to that.

• 37:36Rich Roll?

  And that is the kind of portal to forgiveness and mercy, because when you understand like, oh, he, he was just programmed this way and, you know, it's a result of the pain that he inherited. And recognizing that this healing journey that you've been on is so much about healing yourself, but also interrupting this generational cycle of trauma so that you're sparing your children from that. And to me, like, I've been on a, on a version of this myself. And I've just really recognized that if anything, like that is the ultimate job of the parent, you know,

• 38:16Rich Roll?

  to kind of arrest whatever pattern has been passed down, generation after generation, to spare your children of that and set them up, you know, liberate them from the pain that you inherited.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is well, well put. I agree. Yeah, I think you're right. That's, it takes sort of strength to do that. And my dad didn't have that strength. He didn't have the ability to,

• 38:44Speaker 01

  to make that transformation. So just that makes me feel sorry for him, you know, but yeah, I've seen old pictures of him when he was a kid in the twenties and thirties in like a sailor's uniform. He used to wear with a long hair, you know, and he's this cute little kid. He looks, you know, very sensitive. And I'm sure he was beaten and he was badly treated. My grandfather on his side was, he was a very tough guy, army officer, hunter, heavy drinker. Came from like a very poor upbringing with twelve siblings.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  We, his mom died when he was twelve, I think, and he had to start working and support the family. I mean, a fricking nightmare.

• 39:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  I mean, just can you imagine back in the, in the twenties, what that was like? So my dad never really got a shot, you know? So, yeah, I think, you know, for me to forgive him and, and like you said, try to break the pattern of violence. And obviously my kids, they, my two daughters, they have their own trauma of some ways. Because, you know, I wasn't there all the time. I was an actor and, you know,

• 40:04Speaker 01

  we got divorced when they were in their teens and, and so they have their own version. You, you can't compare. There's no scales, you know?

• 40:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Your pain is your pain, you know?

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Your pain is your pain.

• 40:15Rich Roll?

  No matter, and not for nothing, like had you not, whatever you would have done, like paint any scenario, like the optimal dad situation, they're gonna have, there's gonna be something, you know? They're gonna like, okay, tell your therapist, you know? None of us are doing this perfectly, you know, far from it.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  No, and it's like, and that's why it's important ever to say like, well, when I was your age, you know, I was beaten three times a day. Like, it's not gonna, it's not gonna help them.

• 40:43Rich Roll?

  No. But you were, and then some. I mean, after, okay, so I, I can't remember where it falls in the timeline, but like, you know, you're, you're at.

• 40:55Rich Roll?

  University of Washington? Yeah, or in

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Washington State.

• 40:57Rich Roll?

  Washington State, and then you're at Clemson. But you end up going back to Sweden and, you know, entering into the special forces training. That was after that, right? Which is essentially like SEAL Team training.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:11Rich Roll?

  Uh, why did you decide to do that? And, uh, is that just sort of like a cultural imperative in Sweden? Or something that you needed that challenge?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  I was drafted, like most Swedish men during the Cold War. I was drafted and I was put in a coastal artillery unit, which, um, basically they used to, we used to have artillery, uh, coastal artillery. Um, Sweden wasn't neutral. So it was, you know, you can never say, well, who's the enemy? But for some reason, all the guns were pointed eastward. So I guess, you know, towards Russia. But, you know, you weren't supposed to say like, oh, cause NATO or the Warsaw Pact. But I was in that unit. And then we had an offer to join this Navy SEAL unit, but you had to go through a selection course and a process to do that. And I decided I wanted to try it.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  And, uh, that's when I hurt my ankle, actually, the first time. Uh, which I had surgery on only a few years ago. But it was, it was a tough course and, um, most guys didn't make it. I think maybe about 20%, made it or so. And, um, I was just another test, I think, to wanted to just impress my, my dad, maybe.

• 42:28Rich Roll?

  You're, you're burying the lead a little bit. You mentioned, uh, injuring your ankle, but you know, this is another cinematic scene in the movie of your life, where you're trudging out in the snow for God knows how long. And you twist your, you roll your ankle or whatever. You just decide the solution to this is tightening up your boots and, and just toughing it out for another like day and a half in the, you know, frozen tundra. This is the costume of the warrior that you've adorned and, you know, befitting of a soldier, uh, and speaks to like that, you know, kind of relationship with suffering and the disassociation between like, you know, mind and body.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yes, you're right. It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's a strange, strange, um, domain. It's a shadow land where when you get pushed past a certain point, you're in another world, you know, you probably, you're an ultra athlete. So you know, it's like, you don't know how you're going to react, especially when it involves physical pain and violence. And I, I always looked at myself as a peaceful, uh, kind of shy and sort of, uh, uh, introvert person. But of course, then there's the other, another side that comes out.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Kind of like a, like a Mr. Hyde, you know? There's the other guy who comes out when he gets pushed to a certain point, which when I'm kind of there watching on the sidelines myself, oh, okay. Now this is going to happen like, and you're kind of just kind of not even conscious of what's happening.

• 44:12Rich Roll?

  You're essentially this very sensitive, artistic minded, uh, kid who is anxiety riddled and insecure. And, you know, had you had a different set of parents, might've, you know, grown up in Venice, California and a sculptor or something like, you know what I mean? But you're in the body of this guy, you know, like the, the dissonance between like the figure that you've got, your physicality and like what your kind of internal experience is, is, is, is like, is quite the delta.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  That's what's interesting. You're right. Yeah. I mean, I have some, um, speaking of, there are a few people like that. I mean, that I've had, you know, met in my life, um, there in, in this business, like people like Sylvester Stallone, for instance, who had a similar upbringing, I believe. It's, it's no secret, I know it's similar, but you know, also is an artist, very sensitive. And he has this other side too, that kind of warrior side. And it, it happens. And, and there's a certain, I think there's something in that, that the camera kind of feels. Because, you know, you look at the old movie stars like the Robert Mitchems and these guys,

• 45:29Speaker 01

  they were on the chain gangs and they were like hard drinkers. They had that other side. And then they had a sensitivity as well. And I think that some of that is quite attractive in, in cinema. So I just, I just thought of that.

• 45:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, that ineffable quality of, of depth that, you know, comes across on screen without saying anything. It's like a look in the eyes or a facial expression. It speaks to, uh, you know, kind of an interior experience that doesn't quite match the physical appearance.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yes, that people feel, uh, that there is something else there. Like that some, there's, there's a level of kind of some compassion or something underneath, even if that character is like shooting people. Or like, you know, doing something very vicious, you still feel it. It's, it's kind of, I mean, obviously a lot of actors, you know, play these sort of dark characters, something just started like Robert De Niro or somebody, you know? I mean, you're watching him like with a baseball bat, you know, crushing somebody's skull, but you're still, you still feel the character as being a human being and kind of, you know, having some, some sensitivity somehow.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  It's strange. So that's where it all started for me. I was, you know, because I had those two sides, I guess. And, and I was lucky that I ended up in the cinema because I could use both of those.

• 46:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Otherwise I would have been, you know, seriously alcoholic, you know, chemical engineer somewhere with three, three failed marriages behind.

• 47:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Who knows, man?

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Uh, and in jail probably for killing somebody.

• 47:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Uh, but God put you on a pretty unique path, my friend. I mean, so when I mentioned synchronicities earlier, what comes after this is you end up in Sydney. You're getting your graduate degree in chemical engineering. And just to make ends meet, you're, uh, you're like a doormat at nightclubs, like a, you know, kind of like enforcer out front.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Cash business.

• 47:37Rich Roll?

  You end up like kickboxing some guy in the face because he got out of line trying to get into this club. And somebody takes notice and before you know it, uh, you're hired to, uh, protect Grace Jones or stand outside her dressing room door for some appearance that she's making. And this is the kind of first inflection point that, you know, completely sets your life on a new trajectory.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. I was so innocent back then. I think I had one girlfriend in my life and I'm 25.

• 48:09Rich Roll?

  24, 25.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  24, 24.

• 48:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I remember standing there. It's like I have this sort of, uh, snapshot image of me standing outside and her kind of with some looking past the makeup artists, you know, over his shoulder and clocking me out there. And, you know, you feel the vibes. And then I ended up doing security at some club where she went out with all of her friends. And my, my sparring partner, who was another big guy, Australian guy was there. And, and he, I think she was dancing with him. I was too shy to do anything like that, but, you know, he was kind of hitting on her. But, you know, we should obviously, you know, we ended up going back to her hotel. Had she had a big suite. I'd never seen a big suite before in a hotel.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  And she had an entourage, maybe 20 people. Then there's 10, then there's eight and four. And then suddenly it's just like me, him and her manager. And then he, he kind of, he, he gets sent home. And then finally the manager leaves too. And then there's just, I kind of realized somewhere in there what was going on. And, and I ended up spending the night with her, you know? Missing a few classes next day. And, and I was a bit, it was a bit of a shock for me. I was a bit, I, I didn't know why, what she saw in me. I couldn't put it together. Like I didn't feel like I deserved it, you know?

• 49:33Rich Roll?

  Well, that sense of undeservedness is a, is a, you know, deep, a deep wound. You know, that kind of recurs in how you show up in your life at various stages.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think also sexually, you know, I was like so, such a amateur, you know?

• 49:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  And she wasn't.

• 49:51Rich Roll?

  You're so vulnerable and candorous in the book. I mean, you talk about like, you know, sexual performance anxiety. And, you know, it's like people see you and they're like, what? You know, like, how is this guy, you know, having this issue?

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Well, I did make up for some of that later, but.

• 50:10Rich Roll?

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• 51:36Rich Roll?

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• 53:04Rich Roll?

  How long before that experience and you, you know, after taking a, taking a couple classes at MIT, you know, and deciding like, let's go to New York? Like, what is the timeframe there? It feels like it all happened like really fast.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Very fast. Yeah, I, I met her like in April, I think it was. And I had to, then I fought in the Australian Open, which I, I won actually. And then I met her later that year in Tokyo. I was, went to Tokyo to train karate with the main master of that style. And she was there doing a commercial for Honda, I think it was, a car commercial. And, and then I went straight to New York with her. We, so that winter I came to New York and then that, that year I was supposed to start MIT. So I had like six months off because Southern Hemisphere, you know, the schools, they, they graduate in, in December.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  So their, their summer vacation is over the holidays. So it was kind of backwards. So I had kind of a semester before I was supposed to start MIT. So that semester I was in New York, and that's when all this stuff happened with Warhol and, and you know, I started, went to an acting class, all of these things. So by the time I was supposed to go to MIT, which I did with her on the back, just to like, check it out, see if I could, if I could do it. Then it was nine months later, I was, that's it. I dropped the ball and I just decided to become a, you know, somewhat starving actor in New York slash doorman.

• 54:46Rich Roll?

  This is the montage in the movie where, oh yeah, it's just like, you know, fast cuts of, you know, David Bowie and Michael Jackson and Madonna and Steve Rubell and Studio 54 and The Factory and all of that. But where does the impulse to study acting come up? Like you end up, you know, with this acting coach.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:07Rich Roll?

  And that's obviously another decision that changes your life.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:12Rich Roll?

  And another sort of father figure mentor.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Right, yes. I met this guy, Warden Robertson, who was an acting coach up East Side in New York, in Manhattan. He worked with Grace because she was going to be in Arnold's follow-up, Conan the Destroyer. So I met him through her. And I guess I felt some urge with acting that it was something interesting. People on stage, you know, being emotional. And he was very much into the kind of primal scream. And he was into, he was a very perceptive guy. Like he could tell right away, talking to me that I had some issues, I had trauma, something with my dad. So I, I remember I did a couple of scenes there.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  And one scene was, I, one scene I remember was from the, on the waterfront, which is a Marlon Brando picture where he kind of breaks down the door and he's like, arguing with Eva Marie Saint and he kind of, well, they're arguing, she won't let him in. He breaks down the door and they kiss and, you know, anyway, towards the end of the movie. So I did that scene and, you know, he, before I did it, I did it kind of a bad version. And then he got me very emotional because of my dad. And I had to stand there and there's like 75 people in the audience. You stand there and he talks to you and, and then you kind of talk back. Maybe you speak to your dad, like he had me speak to my dad and get really emotional and upset.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  And then, okay, now I start to see. So I kind of did the scene and then people seemed to enjoy it. And, and then I said, wow, this is, this is amazing. I'm like, I feel better now. So I kind of hijacked my emotion and I got it, I got to, you know, express it somehow and I felt better. Then I had to talk to him a little bit later and he said something like, you know, maybe the reason you've tried all these different things are because maybe you're an artist, maybe you're not a chemical engineer, you know, maybe that's what you should do. You know, and I, and I, I thought it made sense to me.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  So I think at some point there, Grace also realized that, wow, I kind of misjudged this guy.

• 57:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  You know, I'm not just, you know, good looking, you know, you know, ass kicking, you know, chemical, I mean, chemical engineer who does karate. But there's an other side that I got sort of obsessed with acting. And, and I could tell that when I was on stage, people enjoyed watching for some reason, even though I was a complete amateur, they, there was something about me that they wanted, people wanted to see. And then when I was with Grace, people took pictures of me and stuff. They didn't know who I was, you know?

• 57:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you were a sidearm guy. Like you're at all the places, but you're the unknown.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:04Rich Roll?

  You're, you're striking in your appearance, but it wasn't because you had done anything.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 58:09Rich Roll?

  You were just there with Grace.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:11Rich Roll?

  And Grace realizing like, oh, there's this other aspect to this guy.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:17Rich Roll?

  Maybe initially she thought that was cool, but that becomes problematic later.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Then it started becoming problematic. I started, you know, she helped me in the beginning and I, her agent became my agent. And then he set me up for some roles and I, I started getting like callbacks for different movies and very quickly. And one was actually, Stallone was doing his Rambo sequel, Rambo 2, when he goes to Vietnam and it was a big hit later. And there was a Russian character in that movie that he fights this guy in the chopper at the end. And, and they wanted me for that. But, you know, at the same time, I'm also auditioning for this boxing movie and it turns out to be another Stallone picture.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  So eventually ended up a year later, once I got the role in Rocky, then they kind of paid me off for the other role, which is a lot of money for me in those days, like five grand or something. And I was like, yes, I got, I didn't have to do it. And I was doing the Rocky movie and, but you know, you're right. It started, I started sort of accessing parts of me in, in the acting work that made me, it was pleasant in one way, but it was also uncomfortable.

• 59:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this confrontation with your past.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:41Rich Roll?

  When I read that, I'm thinking about how, you know, you can translate your pain into these superpowers. You did it, you know, as a, as a student and you did it as an athlete. And now in the arts, you're finding a way to like channel these experiences that are so difficult and translate them into, you know, some kind of artistic sensibility that it, that, that empowers your acting career. You know, it's so interesting. You talk about, you shared that story about like him encouraging you to like have this conversation with your dad and you're able to like cry on cue. And that's like a, you know, like a direct experience of that trauma.

• 1:00:23Rich Roll?

  But I'm wondering, like, did that make you want to seek more healing for that? Or was that just like, oh, I can use this. I'm going to keep it compartmentalized and chambered, but I can bring it out when I need it so I can use it as a tool or a utility?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's what it was. I just kept it compartmentalized. I kept it as kind of a secret weapon to make a character more interesting or, you know, to get out of my head, to get more emotional would, you know, be, make me less, you know, self-conscious as an actor. And obviously, I sometimes think about, you know, had I not gotten a Rocky IV role, had I stayed there and studied acting properly, not just six months, but like for six years or something, like I did with karate, what would that have looked like? You know, it wasn't meant to be, but could have been interesting.

• 1:01:22Rich Roll?

  Like a stage actor or like a deep dramatic actor.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Could have been.

• 1:01:26Rich Roll?

  Unfortunately, you're packaged in this incredibly beautiful body and that was not your destiny. So you get this bit part in a James Bond movie, small, small little part. Rocky IV comes after that. Stallone famously said, this guy's perfect for the role and people are going to hate him because he's too perfect.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Rich Roll?

  Like your perfection becomes, you know, like the reason that the audience is going to turn against you, which I think is super insightful and also very funny. And this, this begins, you know, you go on this, you know, cue the next montage right out of Rocky where you, you go on this insane kind of training to prepare for this role. But it's the beginning of this very interesting relationship that you have with Sylvester Stallone, like a closeness, a kinship and a friendship, but also, you know, not without its competitive nature and, and kind of like head butting, you know, incidents along the way.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, we are destined somehow to, you know, to have.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  To be connected somehow artistically and and and personally, uh, which I don't think happened to. You know, has certainly has has not happened to other people I've worked with and and I don't, I think it's quite unusual for him too. That somebody he worked with forty years ago. You know, we ended up doing what, how many movies together, one, two, three, four, five, six films together over forty years. So. Quite unusual, I think, in the business.

• 1:03:15Rich Roll?

  You train like a maniac for this role. You do the movie. Uh, you're doing A D R in post. You're not really thinking too much about, you're seeing some footage, you're not impressed. Uh, so it seems like you're not, you know, staking your future on what's going to happen with this movie. And then you attend the premiere. So tell the story of the before and the after of that evening.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. The premiere of Rocky IV, it was November eighty-five in Westwood at the. Westwood Marquis, I think it was, and they had a new C E O of, um. M G M's, they had the marching bands and the elephants and the whole thing. And, uh, you know, I came out of the limo and I'm Grace Jones's, uh, you know. Boyfriend, toy boy, whatever, and people are trying to get me out of the way, take pictures of her. Um, and, uh, yes, they, some folks may have known that I was, you know, the. Villain in the movie, but not many, I don't think. It wasn't like now, there's social media and there's, people didn't really know.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  And I, I sat down and in my seat and then, you know, the movie starts with these two.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  These two gloves, Soviet glove, American glove. And, uh, I remember sitting this with my mouth open like.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  For ninety minutes just staring and, um.

• 1:04:40Rich Roll?

  Cause you hadn't seen.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  I hadn't seen the picture and I, I didn't realize how powerful those close-ups were like this, you know, that they shot where. You know, the old tungsten lighting that illuminates your eyes and, you know, and the big screen is very powerful and the character. This is during the Cold War, so you had like a real, people are really, um. You know, people have feelings about the Soviet Union and about that, that confrontation possible. There's a nuclear standoff going down. Much bigger than, let's say there's a war in Iran. Well, okay. But Soviet Union, they had ten thousand nuclear, you know, warheads. It was different. So.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  I think the, the lights came up and I was in shock. I think, uh, I realized the movie was super powerful. I was moved at the end. Uh, I was moved by my character. I was moved by, you know, Rocky winning, who I thought was. Was the right way, they should have ended up way. I was. And I, and I turned around and everybody's looking at me for some reason and I was like. You know, and I remember Stallone had told me. Just wait, wait till this film opens. Forget the Bond movie. This Rocky picture is going to be huge. And, uh, as I walked out of the theater. People are taking pictures of me. There's photographers everywhere and they're asking me questions. There's like press there and.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  And I was a bit, um, disoriented. I, I feel, I felt a little, almost a little ill, like I. I sort of felt like, oh, wow, this is, this is going to be difficult, especially with Grace. I felt also that. Just instantaneously, I kind of just felt that. I don't know, very, um. Disoriented and, uh, I, I read somewhere that. Somebody said that when you get famous, it, it, um, halts your development. Like you freeze at that age or something.

• 1:06:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, similar to.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Like Michael Jackson.

• 1:06:43Rich Roll?

  In recovery also, like you're, when you get sober, you're the emotional age of when you began using, you know, it completely arrests your emotional development.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Maybe it's right, because if you think about people like Michael Jackson or, you know, Elvis and become very famous, very. At, at a young age, right? So I think maybe I. Twenty, twenty-seven years old, twenty-eight years old, so I, uh, I, uh. I probably had some kind of shock and it took me a few years to, to recover.

• 1:07:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Ten years.

• 1:07:13Rich Roll?

  Everything was different after that.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Everything was different. And also it was back in the day when you were either a, a TV actor. On a TV show, you were a movie star and there was nothing literally in between and, you know. Real movie stars like, let's say like Jack Nicholson, he never did any, any talk shows. There was no press. You couldn't see him anywhere. Uh, maybe in a paparazzi photo, but you, you could only experience that person by going to the movies. So it was like more of a kind of magical, kind of a.

• 1:07:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Feeling when people saw you in real life.

• 1:07:48Rich Roll?

  There was a mystique. We weren't, we didn't have a twenty-four, seven news cycle where there's a whole industry around reporting on. Every celebrity's every move. I think I probably. Thought you were Russian, even though your name is Lundgren, you know, like.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:08:03Rich Roll?

  Cause there wasn't really anything out there about you, but I was a senior in high school when that movie came out.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  It was huge. And I think also. The way it was shot and directed, Stallone directed it, um, and, um.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Bill Butler was the D P who shot a lot of movies in the eighties. He had that fantastic lighting. So it has this modern quality, uh, with the montages, the music, the freeze frames, the big close-ups. It's, it's quite modern. So I think, uh, a lot of movies that are made in the eighties. They've aged quite, not, not that well. Like it's kind of hard to watch them now, but Rocky IV kind of. Young kids still watch it and, and they can still kind of, uh, uh, can, can kind of enjoy it, you know?

• 1:08:50Rich Roll?

  You become this overnight sensation as a result of Rocky IV. Uh, you have the delirium of instant fame and, and you know, what that kind of like reaps in your personal life. Uh, and I want to talk about that, but on a professional level, now you're in the limelight. You, I think I've been in like eighty movies over the years, like your I M D B is, you know, super long, like you've done a ton of stuff. But at the same time, you're in the conversation with guys like Stallone and. Van Damme and Schwarzenegger and these guys just ascend to superstardom and your path is a little bit different.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, you're right. What happened was, I think late seventies. And bodybuilding came like early seventies, pumping iron. And then Arnold did, um, Conan the Barbarian like seventy-eight or something. And then he did. Uh, then Sly came and did, you know, uh, First Blood. And then Arnold did Terminator eighty-five, I think it was, we did Rocky IV. Suddenly. You, you, you couldn't fake it. Like if you wanted to play an athlete, you had to be an athlete. And all these guys, they found all these, you know, a lot of Europeans actually, like Van Damme, myself. And, uh, Schwarzenegger, then you had Stallone, uh, you also had, uh, Sigal came up.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  You had to have the abs, you had to have the body, you had to be able to, to look like you could kick ass. You had to be able to run and ju- jump. And do everything yourself because, uh, there was this new kind of body culture and. And this, you, you didn't have C G I yet, so you couldn't use a stunt guy. So there's that period between like, say, late seventies until nineteen eighty-eight where. I think it was eighty-eight one or eighty-nine when, um, um, Tim Burton put a, uh, Michael Keaton in a muscle suit. And Mi- Michael Keaton did the acting and then he had the suit for the muscles and then he, we, we had. They probably had a couple of doubles do the fighting and, and that changed things quite a bit. So I came.

• 1:10:58Rich Roll?

  Ninety or ninety-one.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe ninety, when it came out. So in between there, that was when I, when we started and of course. You know, I was in the same group as Stallone and. Arnold and these guys, obviously they're older than me, but I think the difference was that Arnold, he was a very, um. Driven guy, very, he had a plan. He wanted to be Mr. Universe and he wanted to be a movie star and then he wants to be governor and, uh. Or, and Sly was an artist, you know, he was a good writer. Uh, Van Damme also is a very clever business guy, you know, uh. I was just this kid who, you know, a couple of years earlier was going to M I T and, uh.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Hitting the bag, you know, and now suddenly I'm the movie star. So. I didn't really know how to proceed. So I kind of, I got some bad advice. I, I, I would say now in retrospect, I. Some of the, my advisors and managers weren't just the best people in the business. And, uh, you know, um. I still survived by just sheer, you know, perseverance, but I don't think I. You know, really, I wasn't really focused on the right projects, on my craft, on these things. Either it was like. Have, take a business approach like, like Arnold. Or take like a creative approach like Stallone, like somewhere in between, but I didn't really. Take any of that. I just kind of followed what people told me. So.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  So for me, it was, it was a tough time, you know? I did movies that I did fairly well. A couple of, four, they say three or four movies after Rocky IV and then. It kind of started petering out because I didn't have Stallone to look out for me. I didn't have M G M. I didn't have. A good director, a good script. So I think it became more of a struggle, like early nineties from there on. It sort of became more of a struggle. My. Trauma started to kind of come up and make itself, you know, uh, announce itself in my private life. Uh, I started to kind of, you know, partying a little harder and.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Doing crazier stuff on the stunt front and, and training and, and yeah, so I kind of. It was, it was, um, yeah, the sort of in, in initial. Allure of fame was kind of given away to sort of a day-to-day kind of a, more of a, a harder existence, you know?

• 1:13:34Rich Roll?

  You have these guys like Arnold and Sly. They're on a mission.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Rich Roll?

  They came to Hollywood with a dream and a purpose.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:44Rich Roll?

  They've been, you know, they've been imagining, you know, a cake they've been baking for a very long time and they will not be denied.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:13:50Rich Roll?

  You show up like, oh, maybe I'll take some acting class. Like this is all kind of happening to you.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Rich Roll?

  You didn't arrive with that degree of intention that you've been thinking about for a long time. So there's that piece.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:01Rich Roll?

  Then you have Arnold, who's just, you know, have you ever met anyone with more self-confidence? You know, and charisma like he had this self-belief, like he was going to manifest this no matter what, and he could just see it happening. Then we have you, not only are you kind of new to town and like, yeah, you're getting some acting chops and you're getting a bunch of attention, but like you're sort of a deer in headlights in this situation. You hadn't really thought it through. You have this amazing break with Rocky IV, but you know, was there even a plan about like how to build upon that afterwards? Not to mention this insecure kind of anxiety riddled like inner child.

• 1:14:47Rich Roll?

  You know, you, you said the trauma started to like, you know, create some negative behaviors in the aftermath of this. Not the least of which I would imagine was, you know, just a sense of like undeservateness. Like, hey, I'm lucky. Like, I don't know that, you know, like I really like, I don't, I'm not Arnold or I'm not this guy. And maybe that manifested as a little self-sabotage or, you know, just a lack of self-belief. Like, I don't want to project upon you, but I'm curious around like how you think about it in that context, like the relationship to your childhood and, and how you, you know, what your inner monologue was at that time when all that was happening.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  You know, having a lack of a vision and a plan from the beginning, you know, makes you a little less focused, you know, because you not really know what you're looking for. Obviously fame was great. You know, I was single, I'm meeting a lot of young, pretty girls, you know, and a lot of new friends, you know, I could work out, I could travel around the world. I could enjoy fame, make money that hadn't, didn't have before. There was a lot of new aspects to it that, that were quite seductive, you know? I think also I kind of knew on a deep level that I did have this problem, this trauma, that kind of addictive personality.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Could he be addicted to stunts or training or could be addicted to drugs or alcohol or

• 1:16:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you call them

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  sex or whatever.

• 1:16:16Rich Roll?

  Escape behaviors.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  Escape behavior. Yeah, I heard about that. You, you know, you have, I talked about it in the book where you, you know, you're trying to escape something that's inside you. You know, it's like a soldier drinking or being involved in violence or sexual affairs or, but you, you have to deal with what's there.

• 1:16:36Rich Roll?

  Or body perfection.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:37Rich Roll?

  Like the training.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  Or that too. Yeah. Why, I had all of those, the escape behavior. And I think what happened was early nineties, my mother passed away in 92. She was quite young, only 60. And yeah, she didn't protect me, but I loved her and she was a very gentle, very loving, sweet person. Never heard her raise her voice or do anything, you know, negative once, I think, in her life. She was one of those people, just very giving. And I, there was, it was a bit of a shock to me, you know? Very, she passed away very suddenly. And I met this Swedish girl in New York and I kind of, I got engaged to her and I wanted to replace my mom, I think.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  So I, I, and, and this girl, she, she was great at that time. She hated LA, didn't like Hollywood at all. So we ended up moving to New York first and then eventually we moved back to Europe. And I think part of that was to satisfy her. And the other part was maybe I had a feeling that I didn't have the strength to survive maybe in Hollywood with my trauma and I would have self-destructed perhaps like I started when I was a kid before my dad got me up to, to my grandparents. So I, I went back to Europe and kind of removed myself from Hollywood scene a little bit.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  And so I think that affected my career, you know, because once you're gone, once you're even go to Miami, you know, it's not the same thing as being in LA. But going to Marbella, Spain, 7,000 kilometers from here, 5,000 miles from here, you know, that impacted my career quite, quite substantially. And I, I, I wanted to create, have a family with her and I think I wanted to have like a normal life somehow. And, and I, I felt that I wasn't cut out for Hollywood maybe at that time. I was doing movies, but I, I wanted a bit of a, she wanted the distance. And I think I, I didn't mind either. I was kind of led along there.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  I don't know if it would have been better to stay in smack in the middle of Hollywood or if, if that would have been very, a very negative thing for me, you know? I could have gotten in trouble in all kinds of ways.

• 1:18:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, it sounds like self-preservation.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:01Rich Roll?

  To get out of there, to, you know, spare yourself the, you know, the pain of your inevitable demise if you, you know, kind of stayed here.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  If we, if we had a People magazine from 1989 and took a look and see who was still around, there'd be a lot of people who you never, you know?

• 1:19:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Be dead or

• 1:19:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. Yeah. There are a lot of casualties. This is like, and also like as much as I romanticize that kind of, you know, Studio 54 of it all, like, you know, a lot of those people died.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:28Rich Roll?

  This is, this, you know, was not for the weak of heart at all. And it just, you know, everything is preying on your, your baser instincts to behave badly. And if you're, you know, already prone to that kind of behavior because of, you know, your past, you know, it's not going to go well. So I think it was a survival mechanism to like get out of town. Also, not for nothing, like the chaos of how your relationship with Grace ended. I mean, when the power dynamic shifted and you were no longer the arm piece and now you're the center of attention, like that relationship becomes dysfunctional. She is challenged by that.

• 1:20:11Rich Roll?

  And, you know, there's a lot of insane behavior. There's throwing bricks and voodoo dolls and like burning your pictures and your clothes and, you know, guns and all kinds of stuff, right? And, and, and this, this sort of codependency aspect to that relationship that you have to extract yourself out of that. And you find Annette and it's like, oh, this is, this feels like home, you know? This, this feels stable. Your mom has passed away.

• 1:20:37Rich Roll?

  I can build a life with this person. Like this is a way of saving myself.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  I think you're right. Yeah, I did. I think my last picture that went on the big screen was Universal Soldier was 1992, around the time I met Annette. And then I think one, had one more, Johnny Mnemonic with Yon Keanu Reeves. But, you know, after that, I wasn't on the big screen until 2010. So that's, what is that, 17 years later?

• 1:21:07Rich Roll?

  This Johnny Mnemonic movie provided you with the opportunity to return to Sweden and do some press.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also later I did this thing called Summer, I was a summer host where you, it was a radio show where you play music and you talk about your life. This is quite a bit later and I did that. My oldest daughter was quite young and I decided the producer, the female producer had told me when I told her my story, oh, the one thing about your dad is really good. You should talk about that. So I talked, this, did the summer, this radio show when I spoke about my relationship to my dad. And so it starts with me being a kid, sitting on his shoulders and we're watching the changing of the guards and they play some Swedish famous march.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  And it starts there and then it goes, everything that happens between that moment and the, the moment Rocky IV opened. So that's the whole thing that Swedes, the Swedes didn't know, did not know about me. And when I did that and I got very emotional speaking about it, that changed everything in Sweden. And after that, they kind of

• 1:22:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Took me to

• 1:22:16Rich Roll?

  They embraced you.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:17Rich Roll?

  You went from pariah to hero.

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:19Rich Roll?

  Like in one interview.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  More or less.

• 1:22:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What's interesting about that to me is it demonstrates the power of vulnerability as a vehicle for connection. Like by you having the courage to like share that very, you know, intimate story about your upbringing. And I don't know what the culture was like in Sweden at that time around talking about this kind of stuff, but obviously that really connected with people and they were able to see your humanity and that allowed them to, you know, form a new story around like who you, who you are. And perhaps that's the first time that you had like that kind of direct encounter with like being honest and open as this like, you know, stoic person who's always armored

• 1:23:04Rich Roll?

  up and thinking that's the way to connect with people and realizing like, no, it's this other way.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right. That's, it's, it's, it was true then and it's true now. I think that people, you know, especially in our world, I mean, there's so much, so much that's manufactured and that is, you know, either AI or CGI or, you know, planned by, no offense to anybody here, publicists or, you know, it's, everything is like, it's a story that's been rehearsed. But if you, if you're honest about things, it could be quite powerful, I think.

• 1:23:43Rich Roll?

  Did you clock that at that time? Like, were you, were you consciously aware?

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  I was, I didn't, didn't know it was going to be like that, but I, I had a feeling that I wanted to be honest about it because I also, my kids never knew what was, what's wrong with our dad? Like, why is he like that? Like, why does he go out drinking? Why is he, why doesn't he connect sometimes? And they weren't, they didn't know what had happened to me. But my daughter was there and, you know, kids are very, she was little, but you know, kids are very emotional. So she started crying too, towards the end because she, I was getting emotional and you know, they just pick it up, right? And I think, you know, I, I told them the story after that too, about my dad.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  I had never told them what had happened to me. So it sort of opened up a whole other world for me where I realized, well, this can actually be a positive thing for me. It doesn't have to be a secret that makes me feel bad. It's almost the opposite.

• 1:24:51Rich Roll?

  As somebody who

• 1:24:54Rich Roll?

  Was so used to or acclimated to like, cutting a certain pose and making sure that you were protected behind this mask of, you know, ultimate masculinity.

• 1:25:06Rich Roll?

  I would imagine there was a sense of like fear or risk about like sharing that publicly for the first time and thinking like, how are people gonna, they're gonna think about me differently now? Now I'm vulnerable, like I'm supposed to be the ultimate warrior, you know?

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I've been through it a few times lately with the cancer and then, you know, at that time, it was the first time that I was, that I opened up and it felt really good. And it made me feel better than what I'd felt when I was acting or better than I felt, you know, almost any time in my life to share things and to share my story and my pain was, was making me feel better. And I also think because I wasn't using, I wasn't really getting dramatic roles where I could express it that much, like it wasn't like, you know, family dramas or anything. It was like, you know, an action guy.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, he gets upset, you know, his buddy dies or something, but it's, you know,

• 1:26:09Rich Roll?

  Goes in a killing spree.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But so I couldn't, couldn't use my work either to express it. But I think, um, yeah, it was, it was a great feeling and, uh, I wish I would have done more of it. But over the years I've gotten, I've shifted more, I think, into that space of, uh, sharing, trying to share some wisdom, I guess, or, you know, some emotions that maybe other people can, uh, relate to.

• 1:26:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You're in Marbella, uh, you're, you're making movies, uh, you're doing your thing, you're raising your kids, maybe drinking a little bit too much.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Rich Roll?

  Marriage maybe not going so great.

• 1:26:49Rich Roll?

  But, you know, it's a life.

• 1:26:52Rich Roll?

  Then 2010 rolls around, your brother Sly gives you a call and you're kind of back in the game again with this Expendables movie, uh, which you build upon and you're kind of back doing interesting things again, like there is this second or third act where, uh, you're doing larger projects than you have in a long time. And 2015 rolls around.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, uh, what happened was first I, I knew I had to move back to, to, uh, to the States for my finances, for my career. It was, it was basically I took a 90% salary, salary cut between, say, 1993, when I moved to like 2000 and whatever, 2005. And, um, uh, my wife didn't want to move and I, we ended up having a lot of problems and I, I got divorced in 2010, moved back to LA, Sly called me for Expendables, that was a hit. And now I'm sort of on the path to doing other things and I am, you know, I am getting more,

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  I'm getting into therapy, I'm doing, uh, meditation, I start to working with, uh, with my, um,

• 1:28:12Rich Roll?

  What prompted that?

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Um, I was in another relationship with another woman, a Swedish girl, actually, and she, and I knew I was gonna screw it up. I, I, I knew I was gonna, I have to do something. I was still drinking too much, I was flirting with other women and I figured, and she was the one who told me about meditation and then another.

• 1:28:34Rich Roll?

  Vipassana, it was Vipassana, right?

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Vipassana and also I, I, uh, somebody said, uh, you know, you should try therapy because I was my, uh, an actor, a friend of mine and I, so I got into both and it started changing my life and I started feeling much better, you know, less anxious, um, you know, less escape behavior and then 2015 rolls around, like you said, and I'm in Sweden doing some karate training. I thought I had, uh, got kicked in the kidney or something because I was, I had blood in the urine, but it turned out to be kidney cancer. So, you know, this is, I didn't tell anybody and I, I still ended up doing another Expendables,

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  I ended up doing Aquaman, I did, uh, you know, Creed 2, I, I, I went to, had surgery, but five years later you're supposed to be, uh, I was supposed to be cancer-free, 2020. So that was a period of personal growth, I guess, back in LA, career picked up again. And then, uh, in 2020, the cancer came back.

• 1:29:48Rich Roll?

  2015, kidney cancer diagnosis.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:52Rich Roll?

  You treat it, it goes into remission.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:56Rich Roll?

  You don't really tell anyone what's going on.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:29:58Rich Roll?

  Is that because you're afraid that it will cost you roles or is it just this protective armor of, you know, trying to maintain this aura of invincibility? Is it the, is it a like trauma response, like you don't want to show weakness or you don't want the people around you, your children to have to suffer, so you're gonna suffer in silence?

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  Um, I think it had more to do with, um, my career. I was afraid that it would change my image or people weren't gonna offer me any work. I mean, I kids knew about it, I told them. Uh, I had a vacation in Europe and we were on a yacht, I remember, and I told both my daughters, it was in Italy and they both were crying, of course, I told them that I had a tumor in my kidney and we're gonna take it out and, and so they knew about it, but not a lot of other people did. Um, I think it was just, I didn't know where to start, I didn't, I, I was scared.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Um, I, um, I didn't want people to, uh, you know, think that I was gonna die and not offer me any movies or, I think a combination and also not to bother other people, you know, like to, to feel sorry for me, friends and, uh, you know, not, my kids knew and some of my close friends, but you know, the rest of the world.

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  See, I didn't want them to, um, have to worry about me, I guess.

• 1:31:31Rich Roll?

  And work becomes, uh, an easy and accessible escape behavior.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  Yes, work became very, even more accessible. I, uh, I did a lot of roles, I did my own stunts, a lot of stuff in Aquaman 2, Aquaman 1, I did Creed 2, I did a bunch of action movies, kept training, kept, also I was taking, you know, steroids, I was taking HGH stuff that can enhance tumor growth. I was, I was just on a, on a kind of a, like in a testosterone kick.

• 1:32:11Rich Roll?

  That was like a 10-year period of that, yeah.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, my movies, all my movies and, uh, because of my movies and also because of sports and some things I was doing, fighting and other things I was doing, but I, I think it was also not knowing how to slow down. I didn't know how to stay home and read a book or anything like that or stay on the couch and I couldn't even think about doing that. So now I can, but I couldn't.

• 1:32:39Rich Roll?

  So, uh, chemical engineer, advanced degrees in, in chemical engineering, gets his hands on steroids.

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:47Rich Roll?

  Like what is that, you know, like, you know, like that had to be, you know, you being some kind of, uh, uh, mad scientist at that point, you know, experimenting on yourself and...

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, the experimentation started earlier in the eighties, but I think it was more like a guy who was really into his body and, um, and, you know, wanting to see, you know, how far can I take it and here, oh, this stuff's supposed to be good. No, I don't, I recover faster, I get bigger muscles and, uh, a lot of other guys are doing it and, you know, when you're 30 years old, you don't think of, you know, don't think of any, any repercussions or anything negative. So I did it on and off when I was younger and then, then I was off it for, for a while and I would do it a little bit and you keep doing it. And I think I, after the, uh, cancer, the first cancer scare, I, I think I was afraid

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  of feeling weak, so I, I went back and I...

• 1:33:46Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did, you did it after your first, wow, that's interesting. Cause yeah, listen, uh, muscles aren't the only thing that these things grow.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:33:54Rich Roll?

  You know, that's really, that's, that's like high-risk behavior.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Yes, it is. And, and even now, actually, um, I was talking to my oncologist about it, um, you know, a lot of these new wellness, longevity, um...

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  Medications and

• 1:34:13Rich Roll?

  Peptides and all

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. People haven't taken them long enough for there to be enough evidence or scientific evidence to what it really does, you know, so we, who knows what we're gonna, what it's gonna look like 20 years from now.

• 1:34:28Rich Roll?

  So you survive that first bout with cancer, you go into remission, 2020 rolled around, peak COVID.

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  Peak COVID. Everything shut down. I, I was doing a movie in, in Alabama and it gets shut down because, actually I was directing. And it got shut down because of COVID. And somebody says, hey, don't come back to LA. It's even worse. Alabama's a little more, little more open. So we stay there. Me, my wife, Emma, my new wife, I was not married to her yet. I was, I was seeing her. And, and then somebody said, well, Sweden's really open. You should go to Sweden. So I went to Sweden and same thing happened like the first time I, I was training and

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  and I started feeling a bit ill. I went for a CAT scan and there was another tumor. There was like six tumors in that same area where they'd taken the one out. So I, I wasn't an expert, but I knew enough about cancer, whether you have six more tumors in that area is not a good, good sign. And it was the week that I'd planned to, to ask Emma to marry me. And it wasn't very easy to plan that because it was during COVID. I had special permission to use this roof terrace and I had hard violinist and my friends were going to show up. And this was like on Thursday and on Tuesday I found out. So I was like, oh shit, you know, what am I going to do?

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  I bought the ring and everything. So I just, I'm just, I'll go ahead and do it anyway. So I went ahead and did it. And we got engaged, but obviously there was a kind of

• 1:36:12Rich Roll?

  And then, by the way.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  By the way, yeah.

• 1:36:16Rich Roll?

  I mean, it had like spread all over.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  Well,

• 1:36:18Rich Roll?

  It wasn't just

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  No, it was, it hadn't spread yet. It, it was there around the kidney. And what happened was I went back to America. I had surgery again, the same hospital. And then, and then I went back and finished a picture, the one that, that was, that was put on hold because of COVID. And then they realized, oh, it's spread a little bit. And I was going to get rid of that. And then, then they couldn't do it. It was the tumor had gotten too big. So I, they gave me immunotherapy, which is when you take drugs, IV drugs, and they help you boost your own immune system. But they have, you know, bad side effects, like you get sores on your feet and your mouth.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  You can get blood clots in your lungs, which I did. So you have to take blood thinners, et cetera, lose weight, you know. So I, I did that, you know, for about six months. And it did turn out, I found out later that those were the wrong drugs. I was misdiagnosed. They, they, they weren't going to help no matter how much of it I took. Because the type of cancer I had was another mutation that you have to really look at the cells to determine what it is. And they hadn't done that.

• 1:37:33Rich Roll?

  At that point, before getting the second opinion,

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:37Rich Roll?

  You were under the impression that this was the end of the road, essentially, like you didn't, you weren't going to beat it this time.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I don't know if I, I don't, I don't think I gave up, but I was told. I mean, I did, I did another, I did two pictures in London, Aquaman and Explanables 4 I shot in London while I was doing all this.

• 1:38:01Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  And I was fairly good, good mood for some weird reason. I think it was some Viking part of me kicked in where it was like, oh, fuck it. You know, it's like, oh, we're going to hell anyway. I'm going to Valhalla.

• 1:38:19Rich Roll?

  Valhalla.

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  I'm just gonna fucking enjoy it.

• 1:38:21Rich Roll?

  Viking.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Go out in a blast of, blast of glory here. So I wasn't feeling that depressed. And the doctor in London, he was the one who told me, you know, that, you know, I said, well, I had a man to man talk to him when, not with Emma, but he said, yeah, you probably have about three years left. But I thought he probably meant less because he didn't want to tell me the truth. Uh, so I, it was tough. I mean, I was working on my own will, changing that around. And this is the end of, this is the end of 2019, 2020, 2021, actually.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  So, yeah, and it's starting to kind of dawn upon me that maybe this is the end, but you know, somebody had told me there's another doctor at UCLA who's really good. You should, why don't you get a second opinion? So I was, after I come home from, I came back from the set, I'd be, and I had to gather all my stuff together, all my charts and then send it to this woman. And I thought, well, this is not going to lead to anything, but I'll do it anyway. Well, you know, I just had a feeling I gotta, I gotta explore all options. A little bit like with Stallone and Rocky IV, like, okay, well, you know, this guy says it's over, but what about, let me try this person.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  So I did that. And, and that's when we came back to America and went to see her at UCLA. She, you know, immediately said, there's something that isn't, isn't right here. It's, doesn't make sense. I would look at your biopsy and it's, it's, it's a very, very unusual type of, type of kidney cancer that this, this medication you've been getting has, has no effect on this. But there's another five medications you can take that works against this. So.

• 1:40:15Rich Roll?

  She was able to identify a genetic marker that made you a candidate for a very targeted treatment.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:23Rich Roll?

  Uh, that ultimately proved to be unbelievably effective.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:28Rich Roll?

  Uh, and, you know, completely changes the entire thing. I mean, you go from like, well, this is my imminent demise to, you know, suddenly like a completely different picture of what your future could look like. And this doctor, like this is another synchronicity kind of thing, like her dad's a huge fan of yours. Her husband, I think, is it worked out at the same gym as you and, you know, like, you fall into the lap of absolutely the right person who's going to help you out here. And

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:56Rich Roll?

  You're given this, you know, second chance at life.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:41:02Rich Roll?

  And the dizzying kind of like whiplash effect of like, it's going to be this way to now it's this way. Like, what was that like?

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Well, you know, hearing you talk about it, it's, it's, it's just amazing what happened. And I still can't really believe it, you know? I can't believe that I was that close to dying and I can't believe that this other person could just turn it around and in like, for, for weeks. Because I started taking their other drug and within four weeks, everything was shrinking. And I was in another movie, actually, I was directing another picture because I didn't want, I'd wanted to keep working, you know?

• 1:41:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Cause God forbid you sit still for a minute.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:46Rich Roll?

  Dolph.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  No, I can't. So, yeah, I mean, look, I, I guess somehow I felt that, yeah, I may not have been,

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  you know, as successful as Arnold or Sly, but I've always tried to be nice to people and be a good person. And maybe it came back to me, you know, from the universe. And that's why I was given the second chance.

• 1:42:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  And, you know.

• 1:42:13Rich Roll?

  You're given this gift.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:17Rich Roll?

  And now, you know, in the, in the aftermath of that, with the benefit of time and perspective, like what have you extracted from that experience? And, and a lifetime of all of these, you know, unbelievable experiences that you've had, a very unique life. Has it taught you about what's important and what's meaningful in life?

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  Well, it's not an easy question to answer because there's so many parts to it, you know? All the people you love, all the, how quickly the whole thing goes.

• 1:43:01Speaker 01

  You know, the good, you know, the good energy coming back to you, all these circumstances in my case. But I think that

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  I, well, I think there is some meaning, there's some meaning with our lives, you know? I think everybody, there's a, there's a reason we're here. And I think my reason had to do with sharing experiences with other people. And I think that's why I switched from engineering to this, why I'm sitting here with you. Instead of shaking a test tube somewhere. Maybe that is some of the meaning. On one level, there's that connection to everybody else on this planet, all the other people. Because we're all in this, in the same, it's the same journey, like how we started this, the monomyth.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  We're all going through it, whether you're American or Russian or Iranian or, you know, Ukrainian, it doesn't matter, right? And, and I've always felt the kinship to everybody. I don't feel, I'm, I'm not a political person. I feel everybody has a value and, and I, I can connect to everybody. And I think my life has been some kind of message, I guess. Like there's that, you know, wasn't it Gandhi who said, you know, when they said, give us a message? And he said, my life is my message, you know? I read this other quote by, I think it was by Louise Hay, who said, who I listened to her, I listened to her

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  affirmations almost every night, you know? And she said, one thing she has, where she says, I am the treasure I've been seeking.

• 1:44:51Rich Roll?

  That's the nugget, like that's the centerpiece in this whole healing journey of you returning home, because I think that the, the impact of the trauma that you suffered powered you through this astonishing life, but so much of it was driven by pain, unresolved pain, at the core of which is this sense of not maybe self-loathing, but like a refusal to accept yourself as you are.

• 1:45:23Speaker 01

  To love yourself.

• 1:45:24Rich Roll?

  And in the aftermath of the cancer journey and all the therapy that you've done, and you know, Louise Hay plays a large role in this, it's, it's really about coming to this place where you can accept yourself and, and have self-love and compassion for yourself. You talk about looking into the mirror and rehearsing a mantra to yourself.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. When you look in the mirror, like you say, I love you. You know, you look yourself in the eye. I mean, that's hard for most people to do.

• 1:45:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  And mean it. Because when you first start, you don't mean it. And you realize, why don't I mean it? Because is this something I did? Or is this somebody told me that a long time ago?

• 1:46:11Rich Roll?

  Especially if you're the ultimate alpha male.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:16Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, then it's even more difficult.

• 1:46:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Like this is beta behavior. You know what I mean? From a cultural perspective. We're in this moment right now where there's a lot of young men who are suffering and they're looking for meaning. This loneliness epidemic, a lack of opportunity, and we have a digital, social media landscape that's populated by people who are influencing this generation of young men who are looking for guidance, looking for father figures and mentors.

• 1:46:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:53Rich Roll?

  And you being, you know, kind of like the ultimate Giga Chad who could out mog anyone. You know, what is your, what is your message to that young man who is suffering and prone to, you know, the influence of somebody who might not be giving them the best guidance?

• 1:47:15Speaker 01

  Well, you have to, well, what we were talking about is you have to love yourself first, before you can love others. And that's, that's what's hard in life. And it takes a long, it's, it's easier said than done, you know? Because if you don't love yourself, then strength doesn't mean anything. And strength can be used for negative purposes, and it is a lot in the world. Because you can take these young men and you can feed them some kind of false messaging and use their aggressiveness to, to negative purpose.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  And it's done every day. We just turn on the TV, you see it. But I think, I think it's up to each individual to try to find themselves and find the treasure in themselves, you know? Because then maybe you're not as susceptible to that language, to that indoctrination. You do things for yourself, you know? Because what you believe in, not what people tell you to believe in, you know?

• 1:48:18Rich Roll?

  A lot of that misguided messaging is around

• 1:48:25Rich Roll?

  the material aspects of, of success. You know, the right car, the right suit, the right watch, the right haircut, the right physique, the right job and salary. And you're somebody who has lived all of those lives. You've lived them on screen, but you've lived them in real life. You've had extreme fame. You've had more external validation than almost, you know, like 0.001% of people who've ever lived. You've had money, you've lost money, you've had, you know, the most beautiful women in the world on your arm. Like all of these things that like the Andrew Tates of the world are telling you, like, if you

• 1:49:08Rich Roll?

  have this, you'll be happy. And, and this is how the world will, will perceive you. And you've come out the other side, having one lost, suffered, experienced, you know, awe and wonder, survived cancer, parented children, been married, gotten divorced, all of it, like the full spectrum of life, right? And so what can you report back about these ambitions that, you know, a, a young person might have around the material possession, or celebrity, or fame, or status, or movie stardom, or, you know, the appearance of your partner, all of those things that seem to capture quite a bit of mind share in terms

• 1:49:53Rich Roll?

  of where we should be placing our ambitions?

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I don't know if I'm the person to...

• 1:50:00Rich Roll?

  Not to put you in a position of being a spokesperson, but I'm talking about you and your life and speaking from your own direct experience.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  Well, I think all of those things are fine, you know? Ambition is fine, material things are okay. I mean, it's interesting to experience things in life. We only hear once, as far as I know, and as far as we know. You know, it's nice to drive a cool car. It's nice to have a Ferrari, or a good suit, or beautiful woman, or a family. I mean, all those things are good. I mean, I think it is okay to achieve those things. It's, uh, it's more about not losing yourself. I mean, I think it is, I think one also has to remember that, you know, you know, the Russian author, Solzhenitsyn, you know, he

• 1:50:51Speaker 01

  said, Nobel Prize winner, he said, the, the line between good and evil cuts through the heart of every man. So we have to remember that. And it's, we're, we have both, the good and the evil. He put it very bluntly, but you know, we have, I think it's, it's, it's a bit of a struggle within all the time, all of us. It's, it's a fight to try to be, to do the right thing, you know? It's, to put it simple. But I think if you feel you do the right thing, if you really believe that you're doing the right thing, then you're always going to be okay. You're always going to feel good about yourself. And I think

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  that's how I want to be remembered. People, you know, the Vikings said that cattle, you know, cattle die, kinsmen die, you yourself shall, one shall die. But I know one thing that never dies, is the judgment over the dead man. How do people speak about you when you're gone? And I think that's where it's at. On the, as a man, on the deep level, that's where I think we all want to be. And that's the kind of, I think if we can remember that, then I think you're, you're going to make the right decisions.

• 1:52:13Rich Roll?

  Have you lived your life with integrity? Are you basing your decisions on self-aggrandizement or the betterment and welfare of other people? How generous are you of spirit and heart? All of these things are what matters. And I think you're correct in saying, like, the nice car and all the trappings of success are fine. But if you're seeking them as a way of, you know, filling that hole in your spirit, it's not going to get you there.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  It's not going to work. And somebody also said, you know, your, your job as a man is to be, to be in the red, to give more than you were given, to love more than you, than you were loved, to protect more people than you were protected, like to, to have a positive net, you know? Then it's okay. And I think it was, it wasn't for, then your life meant something, you know? And I think it's in there somewhere that, you know, it comes down to, uh, and I don't make all the right decisions all the time, but I think on the whole, I would say, looking back at my life, I could, I could kind of stand

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  behind that, I would say. That I feel like I, I think I've fulfilled those, those things.

• 1:53:30Rich Roll?

  Still a warrior, but a peaceful warrior.

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  Yes. The, the older, wiser warrior, the, the guy who comes back from the battles and can maybe teach the young warrior something.

• 1:53:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The, the, the man who can return like, like Russell Crowe at the end of Gladiator, home, having vanquished his enemies, but also can look in the mirror and say, Dolph, I really, really love you.

• 1:54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:03Rich Roll?

  And not feel like that's cringey.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:07Rich Roll?

  Like to mean it.

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, to mean it.

• 1:54:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And to do it as a practice of self-nurturing and honoring. Like, you mentioned, like...

• 1:54:17Rich Roll?

  Being in the red, like always giving more than you're seeking to receive, but doing it with a with a bright spirit, not because you feel like your worth or your deservedness is contingent upon other people seeing you doing those things, but out of like a self honoring practice, like I deserve to, you know, love the people that I love to the best of my ability and the way that I do that is by showing up for them, not, not running away in escape behaviors or, or freezing, you know, your freeze response.

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's also the other side of it, which now when I listen to you, it's that you're learning by yourself till the day you die. You know, I feel like I want to learn stuff. I mean, it's a process.

• 1:55:08Rich Roll?

  The work is never done.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  No, the work is never done. Somebody said, I'm an, I'm a river. I'm learning how to cross. And you're navigating that river and it's like, you know, the currents going this way. You have to steer the boat that way. And then it goes that way. And then you keep going. And I think that's the exciting part of it. It never, it never stops.

• 1:55:30Rich Roll?

  Life will continue to be uncertain. There is pain in your future.

• 1:55:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:55:35Rich Roll?

  And the work is never done.

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:55:37Rich Roll?

  But along the way, you've made peace with your past, with your father and your mother and your upbringing.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:55:45Rich Roll?

  And that has allowed you to make peace with yourself and to love yourself. And the reason to love yourself is so that you can give more of yourself to the things that you care about and the people that matter in your life.

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:57Rich Roll?

  Is that a fair, like this is the, you know, this is, this is Odysseus finally arriving on the shores of, of, of Ithaca after his very long journey.

• 1:56:07Speaker 01

  You're right. And some people, Jesus Christ may have reached that when he was 30. Some people reach it when they're 65, you know, it's a journey. When you reach, when do you get to that state?

• 1:56:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And right now, health wise, I mean, you look good. You feel good.

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  Feel good. Yeah. I feel good. I feel like the old, you know, the old warrior is kind of coming back. And it took me about two years to get back in shape, but I feel pretty good now. Every, every week I'm, I'm actually getting stronger again. So I'm sort of back to where I was even before this started, because when I was doing the steroids and stuff after 2015, I wasn't feeling a hundred percent. I was never really feeling good because it wasn't natural. So I would say it goes back like more than 10 years. I feel better now than I did. Probably the same. I felt like 20 years ago or something.

• 1:57:05Rich Roll?

  I think it's a really exciting time for you. You know, you, you have so much earned wisdom from all of these experiences and, and you're kind of back. You got this book coming out. You've got the documentary about a month later. And the book comes out September 22nd, I think. And then the documentary comes out in October.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:23Rich Roll?

  This documentary, I mean, this is, this is a journey unto itself. Like that was something that began a long time ago, prior to all the cancer and all of that. And then, you know, all kinds of ups and downs, but, um, you know, is really a firsthand account, you know, shot on iPhones, but you know, your wife and you, a lot of that aspect of it, that now, you know, tells like this more full story. And I think these two pieces together, and just, you know, how, how kind of like comfortable you are in your own skin. I mean, that really comes across.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:59Rich Roll?

  Uh, I think this is going to be a really golden, you know, era for you. I'm excited to see what comes of all of this and, and really for wider audiences to really know who you are, you know, like your life is really, you've lived such a remarkable life. And when you look back on it, like there must be gratitude and awe and wonder, but maybe we can end with, you know, what you would say to young Hans, you know, who's getting, you know, kind of knocked about by his dad, this little kid, like what is the message you want to give to him now?

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  I would say, no, don't worry. It's going to be fine. Come here. I'll give you a hug.

• 1:58:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Cause you can be, you can be your, your own parent, you know, to that inner child now.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  Give him some warmth and compassion and, you know, he still has to suffer through everything, but at least he would feel like, oh, oh, this, this big guy really loves me and cares about me, you know? So that would have been nice. But I do that almost every day when I do my affirmations, you know, like I try to, I try to remind myself of those things.

• 1:59:22Rich Roll?

  That's beautiful, man.

• 1:59:23Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:59:24Rich Roll?

  It was a real honor to have you here today. You know, it really was. I, I feel a kinship with you. Like you're, you're an old soul, you know, you really are.

• 1:59:32Speaker 01

  You too.

• 1:59:33Rich Roll?

  An artist and

• 1:59:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:35Rich Roll?

  That was very meaningful to me. I really appreciate the openness and the candor that you brought to this experience.

• 1:59:40Speaker 01

  Thank you. It was a great interview, very unusual, special. And I, I understand that you, we share a few things in our past, what, what you've told me. I hope that people will, you know, maybe walk away with some, maybe some nuggets that they can apply in their own lives.

• 2:00:01Rich Roll?

  I, I'm not worried about that at all. I think they got more, more than they bargained for. And there's even more in your book, Fights Worth Fighting, available everywhere, September 22nd.

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:13Rich Roll?

  And the documentary, October 6th.

• 2:00:17Speaker 01

  And also the book, you could preorder it on Amazon.

• 2:00:19Rich Roll?

  Please, please preorder it now. We'll have links up in the show notes and in the description below the YouTube video.

• 2:00:27Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 2:00:27Rich Roll?

  And I wish you well, man. Best of luck. I think this is a, this is all going to be a big success for you, man.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:00:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, appreciate it.

• 2:00:36Speaker 01

  Hope we'll do it again.

• 2:00:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'd love to. Anytime.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Thanks.