471 - The Knife

This week, Karen and Georgia sit down with the hosts of Exactly Right’s newest true crime podcast, The Knife. Journalists and producers Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton discuss their fresh approach to true crime storytelling, the importance of centering the voices of those affected by crime and what listeners can expect from their new show. The Knife: A True Crime Podcast premieres on March 27 with new episodes out every Thursday. Follow, rate, and review The Knife wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the show on Bluesky and Instagram: @theknifepodcast. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.

• 0:09Karen Kilgariff?

  When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.

• 0:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.

• 0:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.

• 0:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 0:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye.

• 0:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

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  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 0:52Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:55Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 1:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:26Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And today, we have some very special guests to show you. They are luminaries in the true crime podcast space. You probably know them from their work on the amazing podcast, The Opportunist.

• 1:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And now they have a brilliant new podcast that's going to be living right here in our little universe of Exactly Right Media. It's called The Knife, and it premieres on March 27. We're so excited to have Pasha Eaton and Hannah Smith here with us from The Knife.

• 1:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay.

• 1:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Podcast, yes. This has been so thrilling, so exciting. We finally got to tell everyone, and now you're here on the network. Welcome.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  It's the best feeling.

• 2:09Georgia Hardstark?

  We're so excited.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  So excited.

• 2:10Speaker 04

  So excited.

• 2:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay.

• 2:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, when you guys came with this idea, we were, it was like a hard yes immediately.

• 2:17Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 2:18Georgia Hardstark?

  What made you guys come up? Like, what was your, because you came off the opportunist. You still wanted to do true crime, but this is like, kind of heavier, darker stuff. Like, what made you want to get into that, that world a little more?

• 2:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, you know, we had a lot of time doing the opportunist to sort of think about what it is that we like about the stories that we're telling. And we spent a lot of time focusing on these bigger season stories where we're interviewing eight to 10 people, which is, you know, fantastic and, you know, and a great way to tell stories. But Paysha and I would talk a lot about an interview that we did with like, one victim of a crime that would stick with us. And we would end up having to cut so much of that in order to serve this bigger story. And we would talk about like, but this could be a story in and of itself. This could be an episode.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  And so when we decided to do a show together, we thought about that and wanted to do like, more personal, intimate, and more in-depth stories with people whose lives have been impacted by a crime. And so that we can hear the whole story from the incident all the way through the aftermath. And just really sit with those stories and give them time and space.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, it became really apparent that when someone was the victim of a crime, that crime was then like, what's the word, reverberating throughout their life. Even when we would talk to people where something happened 10, 20 years before, it was like, still just so recent for them in a way. And that felt really powerful to us. And also just the freedom to tell stories that weren't in such a specific lens, like on our last show, which was really cool, but also left us with like, we'd send each other articles and it's like, oh, it doesn't fit the show. And we didn't want to be bound by that anymore. And we just thought, I wonder if Karen and Georgia would hear this pitch.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And we were like, hell, yes, hell, yes. Hannah, when you were on My Favorite Murder, I think it was like three years ago, or wasn't that COVID?

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  It feels like a blur.

• 4:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Twenty-five years ago? That was one of our most popular episodes. Of course, I have listened to every episode of The Opportunist, which I know you also produced and worked on too. So, yeah, I mean, you guys, the second Danielle was like, oh, Hannah Smith and Paysha Eaton have a pitch. We're just like, the answer is yes. We don't, if they have a podcast about popcorn, the answer is yes.

• 4:52Speaker 04

  Well, that was our next pitch. So we're so happy to hear that.

• 4:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay. Yay. That's the sequel.

• 4:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  We're going hard for kettle corn.

• 4:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  Very controversial.

• 5:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you guys meet on The Opportunist? Is that where you first started working together?

• 5:05Speaker 04

  We did.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:06Speaker 04

  We met on The Opportunist.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  I emailed the CEO of the company that, you know, oversaw The Opportunist, owned that show. And I was like, I want to work in podcasting, but I've never done it before. Like, would you, can I interview on something? And I ended up getting an associate producer interview on the show. Didn't get it.

• 5:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 5:28Speaker 03

  I was like, no way. No, I was not. I did not make that decision.

• 5:34Speaker 04

  Persistence is everything.

• 5:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:36Speaker 04

  And, yeah, from then on, I, so I joined The Opportunist in April of 2021.

• 5:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And so I, I did the first season, so you came on season two. And, you know, I had been, that was like the biggest break of my career at that point. I'd been working in podcasting since 2017 and had also been thinking a lot about like wanting a creative partner. You know, I worked, I'd been around people that had creative partnerships, had really like, you know, envied that and hoped for that. And Paysha came to start working on the show. And even though it was like her first foray into podcasting, she'd worked in film and television a lot. She's, you know, a great writer and was doing this career transition, which is something that I had also done into podcasting a few years before. So it just, as soon as we met, it was like, oh, we're both like on this same trajectory and we're

• 6:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Fascinated by the same kind of stories and it was just this instant sort of feeling of like, oh yeah, we're gonna be making things together. And so it's just so exciting that now we're doing that with our own show.

• 6:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It's real. I love that.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  That's the best thing ever. Yeah, when I first started working with Hannah, you know, I was just an associate producer and I was like, can I just start giving feedback on scripts? And so I was really comfortable with that, working in scripted TV. And so I was just like, Hannah, here's an alt for all your narration. Just take it or leave it. And eventually it was like, okay, I like that. And from there, you know, the show was a success. And we were like, we want to make something else, but we don't have any time. And then all of a sudden, we did.

• 7:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 7:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that. You guys have this like, perfect, this combination of the like, podcast, like wanting to be in podcasting, and then the pandemic kind of overlapping. And it's just this like, really cool, I don't know, like this like, drive that you both had that just, you made it happen. You made it. And it's just so impressive. And like, it's so cool.

• 7:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It is. I was gonna ask, you got rejected the first interview. Did you go back immediately? Like, I would, if I didn't, I remember interviewing at the warehouse when I was 17 and I didn't get the job and I'm still really upset about it.

• 7:45Speaker 04

  I, you know, I was, like, I wanted the job and I remember being disappointed. But I also still had a job at that point. I was working at a production company that was under a pod at Warner Brothers. And I wasn't in like, okay, I need a job right now, which was helpful. But I also, you know, at that point was like, there are other podcast jobs. And so I started applying and I didn't get those either. But it gave me hope. Because at that point, podcasting was like, you know, there was this boom that happened. Because especially with the pandemic, being able to make things remotely was everything. You can't do that in TV.

• 8:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  And so I just kept applying and actually someone from that company reached out and I interviewed again and you know desperation and I got the job.

• 8:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 8:33Georgia Hardstark?

  But you had experience by then because you did the really cool thing of just and I think this is we can totally relate to of just like, well, then I'm going to do it on my own.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And you did that and you know, prove your point that you're like, this is where you should be.

• 8:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was like this moment for me of I had tried really hard to like make it as a TV writer and I had been in a couple of comedy rooms and that was so exciting. I was a writer assistant, then I got my first credit and I'm in the WGA and then nothing, right? And it that was just, you know, I I wanted more control over being able to like get a job if I was working really hard and getting better at it. And so podcasting gave me that. So yeah, I found a missing persons case. I spent all my extra time working on it and I just kind of taught myself how to like not be offended when someone hangs up on you and ask the right questions and like find people's information online.

• 9:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys are so good at that. I'm so impressed and it like makes me sweat listening to you guys talk about like cold calling people.

• 9:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:34Georgia Hardstark?

  But you both do it in a way that is like so kind. You don't spring things on people. You don't have that everyday like predatory thing that some.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  We're not trying to like get people. We're not trying to go, gotcha, we got some information out of you. You know, we really want people to feel comfortable and open up to us. But it does mean you have to get a lot out in like 20 seconds before they're like, I think this might be a spam call and hang up on you.

• 10:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, my area code is like Maple Valley, Washington. And they're like, excuse me, who? You live in Los Angeles? Click.

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  You think that helps that it's like Washington? It's not LA.

• 10:10Speaker 04

  Only if it's someone in Washington, but sometimes it is. Yeah, it's it's a, I think it's just you have to get a little more comfortable with being hung up on people telling you not to call back and just accept that like that's their prerogative and it's part of it, but. Most of the time, people will hear you out, whether or not they agree to interview. And that was something that was really exciting to me. I'm like, I get to just be nosey.

• 10:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 10:37Speaker 04

  This is unbelievable. I love this.

• 10:39Karen Kilgariff?

  But then, when those interviews actually take place, in your first episode, in your interviewing Darun about her attack, there's this amazing part, when I was listening to it for the first time, where she is speaking for a while. And getting people to really talk about these experiences is, I'm sure, a very delicate thing. She's talking and talking, and then you ask one quick question. I was like, she's there. Hannah is there. So you're, it's like, you're not directing it. You're not interrupting or anything. Like, clearly, you are leading that conversation in this way, where you're allowing people to kind of open up to you. Is that, how did you learn that skill?

• 11:15Speaker 03

  I don't know how I learned that skill. I think, like, maybe, I'm not sure. I mean, sometimes our interviews go for a very long time. And sometimes, I'm like, well, maybe if I were a better interviewer, I could really accomplish this in one hour instead of two and a half. But I just think, like, listening to people, being able to, like, you know, just create that space and let people talk about an experience that they've been through that sometimes is, like, very traumatic and hard for them to talk about. But one thing we've also encountered a lot is that, you know, especially, like, a lot of times when we interview people who've been scammed, they would say things like, wow, you know, people in my life knew that this happened to me,

• 12:00Speaker 03

  but like, no one's really taken the time to sit down and just let me, like, tell the whole thing. And that feels good, that we're able to let people do that. We're able to hear their story, as well as share it with the world. And, yeah, I mean, that's a meaningful thing to me. So.

• 12:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  I mean, before we do an interview, we, you know, do whatever amount of research makes sense for that story and have questions prepared. And sometimes, we ask two of these questions, because they get answered on their own. But it's really like, what is something that we think is really interesting about this person's story? Or their, the way that they reacted to something that happened to them? And so, those kinds of questions. Are always top of mind when we're listening. But I think it's also, we tell them before the interview, like, we want this to be your story. We're gonna help guide you through telling it. Because, you know, jumping around through time, oh, I remembered this thing that happened.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  And we want to be there to help them, but, and make them feel comfortable. But, you know, we try really hard to just keep it as authentic as possible.

• 13:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 13:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you guys have some really, it's a hard job. Your first episode with Darun is so, I mean, emotional. It's this awful attack that she, I mean, fought back like a badass, but experienced. Are, like, tell us more about the season and then the episodes that you guys are gonna be doing. Is it just kind of more of these incredible cases?

• 13:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, we have, you know, that's part of our drive for doing this kind of show is all manner of stories. And, you know, we have people like Darun who, you know, they're on a morning run and something awful happens to them. And they're fighting for their life. And then there's the aftermath of that. We have people who are in a domestic violence situation with a spouse and the complications of that. Because you own a home with someone, you have children with someone. And how do you get out of that situation? Or how did this person get out of that situation? And then, you know, we love a scam story.

• 14:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Love a scam.

• 14:07Speaker 03

  Cult stories.

• 14:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Cult stories.

• 14:09Speaker 03

  We have a wrongful conviction story coming up that is really powerful.

• 14:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  Identity theft.

• 14:16Speaker 03

  We're gonna try to cover a lot of different types of crimes. Our really like unifying theme is the approach that we take to storytelling. And just hearing firsthand from someone who, whose life was altered because of a crime.

• 14:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's cool.

• 14:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 14:32Karen Kilgariff?

  If you were forced, and you might be, to do a different podcast of any genre.

• 14:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Not, popcorn aside.

• 14:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, yeah, we've got the popcorn one on the decks. That's being, that's in development now. But have you ever thought of doing, just going completely out of the genre and doing anything different?

• 14:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Lander pump rules.

• 14:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 04

  I mean, I could talk about anything Bravo, for sure. But no, I mean, I. We have just spent so much time at the like over the last year and seven months working on true crime podcasts, it would feel so unusual.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I could talk about anything Bravo. That's what I could.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 04

  You could bring that to the table.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  I could do a Survivor podcast. I love Survivor.

• 15:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's a good show.

• 15:14Speaker 03

  So television, maybe even though we watch a different television.

• 15:17Speaker 04

  Very different television. There's some slight overlap with within true crime, really.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  But I've been trying to get Hannah to watch The Real Hopsides, for example, to no avail.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  Hasn't happened, yeah.

• 15:29Speaker 04

  It's just not happened.

• 15:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel you.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  Fight the good fight.

• 15:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, but the off-record episode is a little bit different. It is kind of, it is new for you guys, right? Something that is a little more like chatty and and less fully produced, fully journalistic. You want to talk about that?

• 15:45Speaker 03

  For you guys listening, we have, they have the episode, full episode of The Knife, and then the off-record episodes are kind of the, it's almost like the.

• 15:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of like a mailbag episode?

• 15:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Or like a recap episode from the main episode?

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Or like a more info. Yeah, you know, we've sort of liked to think of them as it could be a lot of different things. We love the idea of mailbag, answering listener questions and being able to interact with people in that way. We also, you know, we're going to talk a little bit about the conversations that Patia and I have making true crime podcasts. Like, we have so many conversations to do with, sometimes it's like cold calling people or ethical conversations about how we portray different stories. So we're going to have some of those conversations like on mic so that, you know, listeners can be part of that.

• 16:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  And also tell true crime stories.

• 16:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, true crime stories. Also an opportunity for us to tell stories where we didn't get the right interview, but like, wow, this is a fascinating story and now I get to tell Hannah all about it. And maybe we've like had it on our list for a while, but no one had had time to do a deep dive until now.

• 16:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. You guys are like, I swear you feel like a parallel universe us, but you guys have a lot more homework. And you actually do your homework.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  And you do your homework.

• 16:58Karen Kilgariff?

  You guys are like really smart.

• 17:00Speaker 04

  It's chronic at this point. We're like, okay, we need to make this one really quick and easy and then. Hours later.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I'm hoping like part of the off record is an attempt to get away from that. To have like more conversations with each other without having to do tons of homework. But we'll see.

• 17:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I do think the audience will be so fascinated because that is the piece that you never get from like a limited series. Or the series that are more journalistic and a little more formal and need to be. But I just love that idea that you guys kind of like, yep, we can do that and we can do this. And then you can tell us what you thought of that and then we're going to do another one. It's like a really fun, kind of like backstage feel.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's fun for us to talk about it because we love the job so much. And also just this like hybrid of journalism and storytelling. And we're not investigators, but we are like making a podcast. And I think that's, you know, maybe a lesser known skill set.

• 18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and you guys did, you did it in such a cool way, as I said earlier, just the way you were. Like, I want to be in podcasts or like, I know you guys were listening to Serial when it came out. And it's like, oh, this is a thing we can do. And I feel like we had the, had the exact same thought of let's just start it, let's do this. And I think that's really like.

• 18:19Speaker 04

  It's empowering.

• 18:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, totally. I think people are going to really love to hear about that.

• 18:25Georgia Hardstark?

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• 18:29Karen Kilgariff?

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• 18:34Georgia Hardstark?

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• 18:38Karen Kilgariff?

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• 19:03Georgia Hardstark?

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• 19:21Karen Kilgariff?

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• 19:28Georgia Hardstark?

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• 19:31Karen Kilgariff?

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• 21:33Karen Kilgariff?

  In your years of research and having to do those deep dives, and I know it's, you know, depending on the subject, but is there anything you've ever uncovered, learned a factoid, like something crazy? I just always picture you guys working at like, late at night with one light and you're like, you know, on LexisNexis, like trying to figure stuff out. Like, do you, can you just like recap one moment where you had like that kind of journalistic Nancy Drew discovery or anything?

• 22:03Speaker 04

  There have definitely been things said on preliminary calls where we're just getting some background information where we're like, we have to level with them, we're not gonna touch that, you know, like that's not gonna come up and if you, if it comes up in an interview, we're not gonna, it's not gonna make the episode. Whether that's maybe, you know, something that we don't agree with value system wise or accusations, you know, people have very different experiences within a crime story and will really get fired up about it and so, you know, figuring out how to make sure that person feels heard, but also, we wanna do it right.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's the research and then also there's learning things from conversations with people, just because like, you know, there's the headline and then there's an article and then maybe there's a longer form article if you're lucky and then, you know, I'm like, okay, where's the documentary or where's the book or where, you know? And then you hit like a, a stop where there's just nothing more.

• 23:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a Reddit thread, maybe?

• 23:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, maybe there's a Reddit thread and, um, you know, I've, I think like, I've always just been like, what's, what, what, what else? Like, I just have more questions and so then through, you know, finding someone who was like, oh yeah, that was, you know, I, you know, yeah, I was there or whatever and I knew that person and then, oh great, well you talked to me and then, you know, having a two hour long conversation with that person, there's so much that will come out, like. I'm thinking about like, season three of The Opportunists we did with the cat cult and.

• 23:38Speaker 04

  Which I found that story by Googling, quote, cult plus sign cat, quote, end quote. And I'm like, I wonder what's out there.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  Just for kicks.

• 23:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, it's so funny.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  And this one little article came up and I was like, I don't know if I should pitch this to Hannah, is this too much? She's like, I love it.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  So this is the exact kind of story I want to tell.

• 24:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Genius.

• 24:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then when we had a conversation with Mary, who is married to this man who used to be married to the cult leader. During the interview, she revealed to us that there was an attempted murder involved with the story where she had befriended this guy years later, who was her assassin, essentially, that the cult leader had tried to convince him to kill her and her husband, and he didn't. And then years later, they became friends. So that was a moment where this whole other aspect of the story opened up. And we're like, wait a minute, what? Like, there's also, like, you know, a potential attempted murder here. So there's, you know, that was a big moment. But there's a lot of moments that happen like that.

• 24:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's amazing. How has it been, like, in your line of work? How is law enforcement communication going for you guys? It seems like that would be a tough one.

• 24:53Speaker 04

  It is and it's not. It's like, if there's a case where, you know, it's case closed, someone's been convicted, sentenced, usually there's law enforcement who will happily talk about it because it's maybe something they consider a career accomplishment. And maybe it is. But if the case is still open, it can be a lot more difficult. And, you know, when we do those interviews, they can still be very useful for information. But you're not going to get someone to, like, reflect or give you anything beyond, you know, a very, like, by-the-book answer, and that can be challenging. But I would say overall, pretty good.

• 25:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I do want to know more about the interviews you do with people involved in the case. The first off-record episode is so incredible about these missing teens. And you got friends to talk, you got family to talk.

• 25:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, that's like, and you went there in person, too. It's like, that just has to change everything.

• 25:53Speaker 04

  It did. It changed everything. You know, I went to the DA's office and, you know, sat down with an investigator who had previously been a detective on the case when he was earlier in his career. It was incredible. I got to, I fell in love with it because I met so many people I would have never met. And, you know, I got immersed in the story and really got to understand how current it all was for them still.

• 26:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 26:20Speaker 04

  You know, their, their friends had gone missing, you know, 20 years earlier and they're talking about these memories that are so vivid for them. And also unpacking it with me for really the first time for a lot of them. Because it was a small town and the same theories had circulated. And I just thought like, this is such a privilege that these people are taking this complete stranger into their home. I had a little Olympus recording thing that I got for like 20 bucks. And I'm, you know, they're just talking to me and they didn't care that I had no previous podcasting experience. They only cared that someone wanted to hear their story.

• 27:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 04

  And that really hit home and was like, I'm so motivated to do this now. And then, you know, I got, I got my job on The Opportunist, got much busier. Wasn't really sure how to end the story. I was so new to it and.

• 27:17Speaker 03

  You recorded like multiple episodes and put them together.

• 27:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 03

  I don't remember how many, but I, I'm one of the few people that have the privilege of listening to it and it was really good.

• 27:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  But the case was still unsolved and you didn't have, you weren't sure how to end it.

• 27:29Speaker 04

  I wasn't sure how to end it and I also felt conflicted about some of the tape because, um, you know, there were two missing teens, Jeremy Bechtel and Aaron Foster. And Jeremy's family was very open with me. Aaron's family was much less. And I started feeling conflicted about putting so much out there without their support. And that was something I was thinking a lot about. I didn't have the confidence in my storytelling ability that I have after having done it now. But it was just so interesting to like, I'm gonna get case file, access to a case file. I'm gonna get to go ask these people questions. And, you know, I didn't, I didn't break news with the story,

• 28:10Speaker 04

  but I was able to sort of piece together enough to be like, I know that they left that party. And I know that after that party, they went to Aaron's house. And I had only ever heard or read that they had left that party and never been seen again. And that was enough for me to be like, sometimes it just takes like. Not a professional, but like fresh eyes and energy into doing something. And I didn't solve that case. They did. And they, with the help of this YouTube diver, exploring the nug.

• 28:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Spoiler, spoiler.

• 28:42Speaker 04

  Spoiler. But it was so amazing because I had built so many relationships in that town that when, as they're literally pulling the car up from the river, people are calling me.

• 28:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:55Speaker 04

  And I was like, oh, my gosh. And so then I felt this way of like, well, I now have all of these relationships with Jeremy's family members. I need to call them.

• 29:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:05Speaker 04

  And like.

• 29:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you inform them?

• 29:07Speaker 04

  One of them, I informed him because he had been calling me and we had been playing phone tag. And then it felt strange. And I just said, I don't have any details. I've just heard that Aaron's car was found in the river and you need to call Sheriff Page.

• 29:23Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible.

• 29:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, you know, I didn't want to make those phone calls, certainly. But when you're talking to people every day for a long time, they're wanting to talk about it with you. And it was just a great experience. And also, I think with missing persons cases, for me, there's that hope. And even though, you know, after 20 years, I think hope dwindles, but I really liked that aspect of it. And that was just, it was exciting.

• 29:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so cool. As a cold case junkie, I really was just, that story was incredible.

• 29:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also, that's such a good point, that like, when something happens to people, a trauma, like, all of a sudden, just your child is gone. You're, you know, there's just, there's no explanation. And people help you for a little while and then just nothing. The idea that, that you are left to process that or just, or not, because you don't get any answers, it's not the same as like, there's a death in the family. It's just, it's a total void. And like, you know, you describing it that way, it's like, it must be incredibly powerful to have someone come and say, I care about what this is and I want to help in some way. I do, that is what I love about the true crime community is like, there are so many sincere.

• 30:38Karen Kilgariff?

  You're sincerely caring, like, professionals and non-professionals that are like, what can I do? What could I look up online? Like, what could I research?

• 30:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, and it also was very eye-opening in the way of like, it's easy to say, oh, you know, why didn't the, why didn't local law enforcement do more? Obviously, they didn't run away to Florida. They, they left a paycheck behind. Like, all of these, like, quote-unquote, like, obvious things that had happened or not happened and blame. But when you talk to all of these different people, it's like, you know, well, wait a minute, that, that office had one computer at the time. So that means these notes are handwritten and then typed out. And how many notes are you taking if you're writing something by hand?

• 31:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally.

• 31:20Speaker 04

  And what does this game of telephone really look like, even if you're trying your best? What was the training at the time? It wasn't, so then it was like, okay, I have to take a step back because it's not one person's fault. It wasn't like, there were a lot of things that should have gone differently and didn't, but it made me take a step back and think about how little you really get from reading an article, and I just wanted to know more.

• 31:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you have a story like that, of something that's happened where you're just getting involved, kind of turned, turned things a little bit? That's like that maybe journalistic satisfaction that you get to have sometimes?

• 31:57Speaker 03

  I don't know if I have a story quite like that, where that, where it gets solved, a missing person's case. I mean, that's pretty incredible.

• 32:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 04

  But certainly, like, you know, we've talked to people that have reached out to Hannah from, just knowing her from the Opportunist, and said, well, what about my story? Can you look into this? And, you know, I think that is a cool place to be. Like, someone thinks that I care enough to look into this and, like, actually do some research. And I think that that's also a really, like, great thing about being able to connect with listeners.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, not like, you know, I've never, yeah, I've never solved a case or anything like that.

• 32:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That's season two.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's coming. But, you know, just being able to bring it to, like, people's attention. To continue to keep attention on these things, as we were just talking about, I think means a lot and you never know what that can do. It's like, you know, Peisha didn't solve this case, but the fact that there was so much attention on it, I don't know, it keeps it fresh in people's minds and you just never know like what that could lead to. So that's what I usually tell people and they're like, I have this, you know, case and well, I'm not able to solve it. I'm not an investigator, but we can certainly tell that story and then hopefully that will help you connect to other people or resources to, you know, hopefully make some leeway there.

• 33:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:27Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 33:30Karen Kilgariff?

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• 33:36Georgia Hardstark?

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• 33:39Karen Kilgariff?

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• 34:05Georgia Hardstark?

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• 34:22Karen Kilgariff?

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• 34:30Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.

• 34:34Karen Kilgariff?

  We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 34:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork and trying to figure out who to call.

• 34:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 34:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 34:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 34:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 35:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 35:11Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 35:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 35:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 35:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 35:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services must be 18 years or older.

• 35:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 35:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.

• 35:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder.

• 35:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 35:45Karen Kilgariff?

  You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 35:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 35:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.

• 36:01Georgia Hardstark?

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• 36:12Karen Kilgariff?

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• 36:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.

• 36:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.

• 36:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?

• 36:38Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you call my feet stinky?

• 36:41Georgia Hardstark?

  For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 36:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 36:49Karen Kilgariff?

  You guys have that thing that I think that people who are into true crime, like we are, murderinos, which is this curiosity about the way humans work and the way these decisions people make affects everyone's life around them. And I can hear that in the podcast, this curiosity that you guys have. It's so, so pure and I totally identify with it.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  Totally. I mean, I think that so many people who love true crime feel that way. Right. And it makes me think of actually this episode of a podcast that you sent me years ago. It's a criminal episode. We know you two, you all love criminals as well. Yeah, so good. And she was interviewing Errol Morris. You know, he was talking about crime stories and always just stuck with me. He talked about like, the heart of crime stories is just humanity. You know, it's, and I just, I just agree with that so wholeheartedly. You know, in all of these stories, of course, there is some incident, some dramatic incident. Right. But like, within that, there are stories of people surviving

• 37:58Speaker 03

  or people seeking justice and the complications of what that looks like. What does that even mean?

• 38:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:04Speaker 03

  And how people hurt each other and how people try to heal and what that does to an individual person and to a community. I mean, it is just humanity. It's like how we all live together. And that is just endlessly compelling.

• 38:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It makes me think of the episode and the opportunist. And look, the opportunist was great. Congratulations. Your new podcast is amazing.

• 38:27Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 38:29Karen Kilgariff?

  But I, you know, I just have the, the memory of you talking about the people who invested in the guys who were claiming that they were going to go find that this sunken treasure boat.

• 38:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And so it's that kind of story where it's like, this is not a murder. This is not, you know, one of those kinds of stories. It's a scam story that as it went, it just became more and more heartbreaking as I listened to it of like, these people who it's like, it's easy to go like, oh, well, you made a mistake or that was a dumb investment. And it's like, these guys went through and just methodically drained the bank accounts of retirees and like, just destroyed these families. And that was just kind of like, well, too bad for you. And I'm sure that there are people who like, when, if they go through an experience like that, being able to hear somebody else be able to say it and have, you know, the validity, like, be able to give it the gravitas it deserves of like,

• 39:24Karen Kilgariff?

  this is horrible, it should not be happening, we should have systems set up, or how do you, what are the next steps you take when someone doesn't just, you know, rip you off, but like, you lose all your money?

• 39:34Speaker 04

  And you never think it's gonna be you. Like, ever. You know, we've probably never interviewed someone and been like, oh, I could see how that happened to them. It's like, no, that could be all of us. Like,

• 39:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, no one is like, well, I kind of expected that to happen.

• 39:51Speaker 04

  You never think it's gonna be you. And I think there's also this, like, self-exploration that happens where you're like, when you, when that feeling creeps in, like, something's not right here, this other part of you is in survival mode being like, everything's fine, I'm sure it's okay, it's all gonna come together. And like, those two voices are battling it out in your head until there's this point of no return. And, you know, that's not someone being naive all the time. That's just like, life, you have to trust people sometimes. And, you know, maybe a gold bar at the bottom of the ocean sounds far fetched, but it's not like this random person knocked on someone's door and said, I know where to find,

• 40:34Speaker 04

  you know, a sunken treasure boat. It's like, this is a trusted person in the community, supported by another trusted person in the community, and that goes a long way for people.

• 40:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Which makes it all the more evil.

• 40:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. Oh, that was a tough one.

• 40:48Speaker 03

  That was tough.

• 40:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's very satisfying that we get to host a podcast where there's the potential where, obviously, there's the relation of there's a crime, and then somebody gets to tell their story, be a survivor, be, you know, get their voice out there. But then that's someone listening at home. Who might not have any of that support or any of that kind of platform gets to relate or have somewhere to go or a next steps kind of plan.

• 41:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, and just feel seen like, wow, a version of that happened to me and here's someone talking about it in a way that's not pejorative or demeaning. It's just like that could be like, I'm not, you know, the only person this has ever happened to. Something's not wrong with me. Someone did something wrong to me.

• 41:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:34Speaker 04

  And, you know, that like goes back to even, even when I was, you know, researching that case in Tennessee, it's like this, this idea that someone feels heard becomes really important in the work that we're doing and is, I think, something we don't want to lose in our storytelling.

• 41:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I think that's impossible for you guys to lose. I think that's just stuck in nature for you. So cool.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  It's definitely like the most fun I've ever had.

• 42:00Speaker 03

  That's great. It's exactly what I want to be doing.

• 42:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay!

• 42:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 42:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so exciting. It's so, I feel like people are going to really, really love this podcast. I just, we've, everyone that works here has listened to it. It's just like, it's a hit.

• 42:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a fucking hit.

• 42:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just so great.

• 42:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Great job, you guys.

• 42:16Speaker 03

  We're so excited to be here. And, you know, you all have supported us so much too, you know, shouting out the show back, you know, when we were doing it and always being like, just cheering us on and that we always saw that and always meant a lot to us. And so, you know, it just feels like a really great place for us to be. It just feels right. And so we're really, we're happy to be here.

• 42:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Does it feel exactly right?

• 42:38Speaker 04

  It feels exactly right.

• 42:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, then you should just sign your life away right here.

• 42:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay!

• 42:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Honestly, and I mean, like, you know, this is business, but also we adore you guys. We love the work you do. We're so proud of the show that you've made and the fact that we get to put it on our network. So thank you so much.

• 42:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks for being here.

• 43:00Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 43:01Speaker 03

  Thank you so much. Yeah, that's.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  It's the best feeling ever.

• 43:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay!

• 43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So The Knife launches on March 27th and new episodes are up every Thursday. Please listen.

• 43:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And don't forget to go and follow, rate, review, subscribe, support, show up. And on Instagram and Blue Sky, you can find them at The Knife Podcast. Thanks, you guys.

• 43:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you guys so much.

• 43:23Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited.

• 43:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay! Okay.

• 43:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 43:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 43:36Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 43:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

• 43:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle-Crighton.

• 43:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 43:46Karen Kilgariff?

  This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

• 43:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Our researchers are Maren McClashern and Ally Elkin.

• 43:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 43:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 43:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 44:04Karen Kilgariff?

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• 44:15Karen Kilgariff?

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• 44:18Georgia Hardstark?

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• 44:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 44:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 44:32Speaker 05

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