Taylor Swift The Life Of A Showgirl

Taylor Swift just dropped her new album The Life Of A Showgirl. It touches on her relationship with fiancé Travis Kelce while reflecting on fame, normalcy, the Internet, and a simmering beef with a fellow pop star. We’re unpacking the songs, including “Actually Romantic,” “Eldest Daughter,” “CANCELLED!”, and “Ruin The Friendship.” To access bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening for Pop Culture Happy Hour, subscribe to Pop Culture Happy Hour+ at plus.npr.org/happy. http://plus.npr.org/happy See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:15Stephen Thompson?

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• 0:56Stephen Thompson?

  Taylor Swift has just dropped her album, The Life of a Showgirl, which she's billed as a more joyful and banger-filled follow-up to last year's somber chart topper, The Tortured Poets Department. The Life of a Showgirl touches on Taylor Swift's relationship with fiance Travis Kelce while also reflecting on fame, normalcy, the internet, and a simmering beef with a fellow pop star. I'm Stephen Thompson. Today on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour, we are talking about Taylor Swift's new album, The Life of a Showgirl.

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• 2:52Stephen Thompson?

  Joining me today is NPR music critic and correspondent Anne Powers. Hey, Anne.

• 2:56Speaker 03

  Hey, Stephen. Welcome to Taylor Swift Day, an annual holiday at this point.

• 3:01Stephen Thompson?

  It is an annual holiday. It is a big, big day in which the main character in our lives is Taylor herself. So we should note that Anne and I are recording this on Thursday, October 2. We've both had The Life of a Showgirl for about 36 hours. You would not believe the agreements that we signed in order to hear this thing ahead of time. This conversation is going to revolve around the album's 12 songs. We haven't seen anything she's released theatrically. We haven't seen any of the videos. And hopefully, she doesn't drop a ton of additional songs like she did with The Tortured Poets Department. Anne, I've come to think of you as something of a Taylor Swift whisperer. You've written about her extensively.

• 3:46Stephen Thompson?

  I know you're a fan. I greatly trust your judgment when it comes to Taylor Swift. What do you think of The Life of a Showgirl?

• 3:54Speaker 03

  Well, I was excited when she announced this album because I am also a massive fan of Max Martin and Schellback, her two collaborators. On this record, the Swedish producers-- With whom she worked on her incredible run of banger saturated albums about 10 years ago now.

• 4:12Stephen Thompson?

  You're talking about Red, 1989.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Exactly. So I was really happy that she was reuniting with them. She made this record, by the way, while she was touring with her gigantic record-setting era's tour. She would apparently pop over to Sweden every now and then and hang out with the guys.

• 4:30Stephen Thompson?

  As one does.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  As one does. And to me, that process is so interesting because while she is staging this massive extravaganza, then she is retreating into the studio with a very small core of collaborators. I mean, besides Max and Schobek, there's barely anyone else on this record. There's a string section here and there. I am so interested in her musical evolution as well as her mythical evolution. I'm into the music on this record.

• 4:59Stephen Thompson?

  Yeah, I'm kind of in awe of her executive functioning.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's intimidating.

• 5:05Stephen Thompson?

  Her ability to juggle many large tasks.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:09Stephen Thompson?

  Really does put me to complete shame. I think this is a really interesting record because I think in some ways, it's definitely going to be discussed as kind of her banger's record, right? Like, she's kind of billed it as such. This is a pivot away from the kind of somber, autumnal vibes, you know, that she explored with Aaron Dessner and Jack Antonoff, you know, on the folklore evermore and especially the tortured poets department. And it is a pivot away from that sound. I don't think it's a pivot 100% of the way from that sound.

• 5:42Speaker 03

  I agree, and especially not thematically. It's not a pivot. I mean, it's a pivot from the heartbreak of tortured poets, but as you well know, there are some themes Taylor can never let alone.

• 5:51Stephen Thompson?

  Yeah, and I think in some ways, it feels like, and the title gives it away, this is the life of Taylor Swift. This is like the state of Taylor Swift. And as such, it contains multitudes, right? It is capturing where she is in her life. She is newly engaged. She's very much in love. That thematically is. A big pivot away from especially the tortured poets department. But she's still finding room on this record for other themes. You have nostalgic heartbreak, which is a big Taylor Swift topic that she has come back to before. There's a song called Ruin the Friendship that is about regretting not kissing someone.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  Very classic Taylor melodrama, finding out later that her object of affection has passed away.

• 6:53Stephen Thompson?

  Honestly, that's one of my favorite Taylor Swift vibes. I like nostalgic Taylor Swift much, much more than here is what it's like to be Taylor Swift. I think when she is at her best, she uses specificity to signal something universal. And sometimes when she is singing about massive fame, when she's singing about haters, when she's singing about what it's like to be Taylor Swift, her stuff can leave me a little cold. And this record intermittently does that, but it contains a lot. There are Travis Kelce songs. There is a fairly sexual Travis Kelce song.

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Ah, yeah, there's actually, it's a hilariously sexual nod to Sabrina Carpenter, her, who's also on this record. I mean, that's a flat out body risque, you know, blues queen, nasty metaphor kind of song. I think it's very, very funny. It's called Wood, in case anybody wanted to know.

• 7:51Stephen Thompson?

  You can kind of suss out the intricately nested metaphor.

• 7:54Speaker 03

  It's not about interior decoration.

• 7:57Stephen Thompson?

  And it's kind of funny. I mean, like, she is definitely, you know, Sabrina Carpenter pops up on the title track, which closes the record. But Sabrina Carpenter does feel like a little bit of an influence at a couple of points on this record, including both Sabrina Carpenter's new record and Taylor Swift's new record, contain fairly cringey references to thighs.

• 8:27Speaker 03

  I don't mind Taylors. I actually, maybe it's because they are these, you know, parasocial figures in our lives. It's just, makes me laugh because they play out their public relationship, I mean Travis and Taylor do, as a kind of a comedy routine in some ways. So I can kind of imagine them jokingly coming up with this. Travis does not have a writing credit on that song, thank goodness. But it's almost like an extension of how, what I think they may be like. And I've never met Travis Kelce and I don't know anything about their relationship really, but the good humor that runs throughout this album, and especially the songs about him, I value that. I don't know, I like Funny Taylor.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  I think sometimes she's a little clunky though in her humor, which I know Stephen bothers you, but you also kind of like the clunkiness, right? You're like a fan of her lines that kind of woof, you know?

• 9:23Stephen Thompson?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I would say I'm necessarily a fan. I will cringe as hard as anybody when she unleashes a clunker. But I do think that her tendency to be, oh god, I'm not using this word deliberately as like an Easter egg, but to be fairly fearless in her songwriting, I think her willingness to uncork a groaner is part of what makes her songwriting distinct. And one of the things that makes her the world's biggest pop star, like as much as she is imitated, as widely as you will hear echoes of Taylor Swift's speak singing that have been echoed by an Olivia Rodrigo, that have been echoed by a Sabrina Carpenter, she still writes songs that don't sound like they could come

• 10:05Stephen Thompson?

  from anybody but Taylor Swift, even when she is not writing about specifically being Taylor Swift and being massively famous and being in the relationships that she's been in.

• 10:15Speaker 03

  I'm not saying that she's gonna take a break, although there is a line on one of these songs about wanting to like move to the suburbs and play basketball with her future children. So who knows?

• 10:37Stephen Thompson?

  You're talking about Wish List.

• 10:39Speaker 03

  Yes, I am. And that is a dream she expresses and a realizable dream in some ways, not entirely, because it's not like Travis Kelce is going to retire from his own celebrity either.

• 10:51Stephen Thompson?

  Yeah, he's about to retire from football, but he's not going to retire from podcasting.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  Exactly. But one thing that I love about this record, actually, is that it feels to me like a culmination. As a huge Max Martin and Schellbeck fan, the three of them weave in both references to kind of like the entire history of post, maybe post 70s pop, and the entire history of Taylor. You just mentioned the song Wish List. If you listen to just the cadence and think of the sentence structure of the verses on that song, it is a total throwback to Style, which is her supposedly, her Harry Styles referencing song from 1989, a record she made with Max and Schellbeck.

• 11:35Speaker 03

  "Elders Daughter," that is a beautiful, timeless ballad that I know will now be the first dance at weddings here in Nashville for like the next 20 years.

• 11:59Stephen Thompson?

  And that's your track five. So you know she cares very deeply about what she's saying in that song.

• 12:05Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly, exactly. But that song, you know, reaches all the way back to one of her most famous lines, you know, a careless man's careful daughter, right, from back in her country days. God, I hate this because I don't want to like stand Taylor or parasocial out with her. But I think the expressions of love toward Travis Kelce are really touching, you know, and the kind of open heartedness on a song like "Elders Daughter" is really, really moving. This record very artfully kind of moves through Taylor's own career musically to present this culmination and land her where she is now. And I love that because it's just really such artful.

• 12:47Speaker 03

  Pop music making. I mean, you can say she writes clunkers, that's cool. But the sound on this record is airtight, I think.

• 12:56Stephen Thompson?

  Yeah. And that's where I want to call out the song Opalight, which comes fairly early in the record and has this big, bright theatrical quality.

• 13:07Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:07Stephen Thompson?

  It's a true, like, just fully fleshed out earworm.

• 13:25Stephen Thompson?

  Oh, I'm so glad we're past the tortured poets department.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's got that Max Martin thing, right? So here's the thing, he is always thinking about how what he's doing connects to the present moment, but also to previous moments in pop. So that song has these kind of, almost like 50s style, like, there's that chorus. And please, anyone listening, if you know where that, whoa, oh, oh, sorry, I'm not tuneful, where that comes from, it's haunting me, it's from another song. But it's also so evocative of, like, the musical grease or something like that. And then add that in to the very contemporary kind of production, the standards on this song, and you have a song that just seems to be everywhere, all at once. Everything, everywhere, all at once. That's what Taylor's all about.

• 14:11Stephen Thompson?

  I think for me, that's one of the real standouts on the record. Do you have other favorite songs?

• 14:15Speaker 03

  And I do like Father Figure. That has a very recognizable interpolation. There's a writing credit for George Michael, so it plays off-

• 14:24Stephen Thompson?

  George Michael's creepiest song.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  Creepiest and most beautiful. I can't help it. It's a gorgeous song, you know? And so, but she actually does something fascinating with this song, which is she leans into the creepy, Stephen, right? And she uses this age-inappropriate relationship trope to call out a former mentor, who clearly is a man, in the music industry, and in the end, basically say, hey, I am more powerful than you. I am now your father figure, which is such a neat little trick.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  She does it in a very mean spirited way, but in also in such a beautiful way musically. So it's just a fascinating twist. And again, it's a, it's a Gary reach back for Taylor, because to me, this is my tears ricochet, which is a more vulnerable expression of being taken advantage of. But here she's like, no, I'm on top. I'm the father figure. And I find that enjoyable in a petty way.

• 15:46Stephen Thompson?

  Oh, absolutely. And we'll get to the slight mean streak that runs through this record.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  Slight. Oh, my goodness.

• 15:52Stephen Thompson?

  Before we get entirely away from the Travis Kelce of it all, there's a song late on this record that I do love called Honey.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:00Stephen Thompson?

  And that is a perfect example of when Taylor Swift is at the top of her songwriting game, because that is a song that is very specific to her relationship with Travis Kelsey. That is illuminating about her relationship with, it's revealing a detail we didn't have before, but it's doing it in a way that feels universal and is speaking to a larger truth of like, when these words are spoken in bad faith, they mean something very different.

• 16:30Speaker 03

  Than when they're spoken in love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  I just have to say about Honey, it also highlights an aspect of this album that I really value, which is her singing. I mean, remember way back 100 million years ago, when Taylor Swift first became a star and people like me, who I was writing for the LA Times at the time, were like, can this girl even sing? Like, people did not think... Taylor Swift could sing.

• 17:09Stephen Thompson?

  Oh, yeah, because she was kind of famously unsteady live performer, and she is not anymore.

• 17:14Speaker 03

  No, not at all. And I think the fact that they made this record while she was on tour, while she was obviously taking very good care of her voice and really deploying her voice every night, you know, in this very powerful way. She just has so much fun singing these songs. I mean, even the way she sings that word honey, you know, she kind of drags it out and it reminds me of like mod 60s, you know, Austin Powers theme song kind of way, you know. Or similarly, the very beginning of this record, On the Fate of Ophelia, the first little bit of that song where she's talking about someone, Travis, calling her on the telephone, she does it in this like mock, seductive, woozy, swoony way.

• 18:17Speaker 03

  The control she shows as a singer in those moments, it's very theatrical, which I think is a really important thing about this record. And I love the way she sings on this. I think she's ready for her Broadway show now.

• 18:27Stephen Thompson?

  Anne, you and I have talked offline that there are a couple of songs, particularly late on this record, that don't work for us as much. I think the first half is pretty solid.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, absolutely. More than solid.

• 18:40Stephen Thompson?

  Yeah, but you get into the back half, and there are a couple of choices made that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of. And I-

• 18:48Speaker 03

  I think you're more troubled than I am. I'm sort of troubled for her more than troubled by her, but we can get into that. We can get into that.

• 18:55Stephen Thompson?

  Well, I'm going to talk about the song Actually Romantic.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 18:58Stephen Thompson?

  Which is pretty clearly, and obviously, we're talking about this on Thursday, there has not necessarily been a gigantic amount of online discourse-

• 19:07Speaker 03

  No.

• 19:07Stephen Thompson?

  -about the contents of this record. By the time this episode drops, I suspect there will have been. Charlie XCX had a song on BRAT called Sympathy is a Knife. Charlie XCX's part- Partner is in the 1975.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  Husband now. I think they're married.

• 19:21Stephen Thompson?

  Yes. Taylor Swift famously dating Matty Healy. She wrote many ponderous songs about it.

• 19:27Speaker 03

  I love those songs, but anyway.

• 19:30Stephen Thompson?

  Sympathy is a knife is a little bit about like seeing this incredibly powerful and successful person backstage, having an insecure response to it.

• 19:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 19:40Stephen Thompson?

  To me, it is much more of a song about Charli XCX's own insecurities than it is any kind of diss track against Taylor Swift. Well, Taylor Swift has a song on this new album called Actually Romantic, which I suspect is going to resonate with a lot of people. It's certainly going to be talked about a lot. To me, it is a huge overreaction.

• 20:04Stephen Thompson?

  It's a good song that bugs me.

• 20:06Speaker 04

  I heard you call me boring Barbie when the coke's got you brave. High fived my ex and then you said you glad he ghosted me. Wrote me a song saying it makes you sick to see my face.

• 20:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, I understand that. And again, this is where I have to kind of walk away from the parasocialness of it all.

• 20:29Stephen Thompson?

  Always a good idea.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  I know, definitely. Taylor revisiting, honing, perhaps, you know, getting repetitive on a theme that she's explored before. She's got this whole thing about like, I am not bothered by you. And this is when she's clearly is, but.

• 20:47Stephen Thompson?

  It's kind of a drill tweet in song form.

• 20:50Speaker 03

  It is.

• 20:50Stephen Thompson?

  Like, don't put in the newspaper that I was mad. Yeah.

• 20:53Speaker 03

  But I just, there's a few funny lines in the song. I think the line comparing the antagonists in the song to a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse.

• 21:02Stephen Thompson?

  Purse dog, yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 03

  Is actually, it is funny.

• 21:05Speaker 04

  And I know you think it comes off vicious, but it's precious, adorable, like a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse. That's how much it hurts.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  If you can remove yourself from the gossip, the song, it's overplayed. It is cartoonish, but she gets some zingers in there. And maybe this is where I should just state my higher concept for this album, because what I've realized after many years, way too much of my life thinking about Taylor Swift at this point, is that at least since she started working with Max Martin and really went for the pop and started building herself as a pop star. Every Taylor Swift album works on at least two levels. It works on the level of autobiography, as we're discussing, and then it also works on the level of the concept.

• 21:55Stephen Thompson?

  Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 03

  So the way this is working on "Showgirl," I think, is that she's created this character, the tough-as-nails, you know, grease paint-wearing, "my feet hurt from dancing, but I, you know, the show must go on." I really wonder if, in this song, for example, or in the song "Canceled," where she stands up for her girl squad in ways that some people might find disturbing, if she's leaning into that character, she's at least finding courage in that character. I mean, she is reaching back to Betty Davis in "All About Eve," or Elizabeth Berkeley in "The Movie Showgirls." These are those women who live for the fame, who live for the lights.

• 22:40Speaker 03

  And can we separate Taylor from that character? That's my question, for you.

• 22:47Stephen Thompson?

  Well, Anne, I think it is safe to say, this is the final conversation anyone will have about this album.

• 22:55Speaker 03

  I'm glad we settled it all. I'm so glad we figured it all out.

• 22:59Stephen Thompson?

  Resolved.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  We're done. Thank you, Taylor. You know, if you want some advice on buying a mega mansion in one of the suburbs here in Nashville, call me. I can find you that basketball hoop. I can't.

• 23:13Stephen Thompson?

  All right. Well, we want to know what you think about the life of a showgirl. Chances are, everyone will have an opinion. Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Anne Powers, thank you so much for being here.

• 23:27Speaker 03

  It's always a pleasure. I will see you next year on Taylor Day for our annual Day of Service.

• 23:33Stephen Thompson?

  Oh, man. When she drops her 13th album, you know how she is about the number 13. That thing is going to have some thought put into it. Just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio, and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org. org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Janey Morris and Mike Katzif, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello, Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Stephen Thompson, and we will see you all next time.

• 24:19Speaker 00

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