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This week, Marques, Andrew, and David talk about the newest Spiderman x BMW collab that has everyone angry before debating whether the EU should make Apple share some features with Windows computers. Then it's all about CMF and their newest earbuds (modeled by AI models ) and a few quick hits about wearables. It's a long one this week but it was also still a fun one. Enjoy! Links: Reddit - BMW x Spiderman Ford Fathom Verge - Apple to Windows Copy-Paste MacWorld - Fitbit syncs to Apple Health CMF by Nothing Twitter Casio ring watch Keychron Twitter This episode brought to you by: Framer: https://www.framer.com/waveform Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/waveform Follow us on socials: Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin Waveform Threads: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Waveform Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/waveformpodcast/?hl=en Waveform TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Intro/Outro music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:39Speaker 01

  Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Your job, your kids, where it's going. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claud.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claud.ai/spotify.

• 1:02David Imel?

  That's weird. All right, well.

• 1:05Andrew Manganelli?

  This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

• 1:06David Imel?

  I'm not a lawyer.

• 1:09David Imel?

  I would not recommend doing this.

• 1:12Speaker 04

  This isn't legal advice, but like, I wouldn't do this.

• 1:15David Imel?

  I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I personally would not do this. New soundbite just dropped.

• 1:25Speaker 04

  Yo, what is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts, I'm Marquez.

• 1:31Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm Andrew.

• 1:31David Imel?

  And I'm David.

• 1:32Speaker 04

  This week, it's, it feels like the calm before the storm of smartphone season. We have a bunch of different, various topics that aren't too gigantic, but that's because we know it's around the corner. It's about to be mid-August and then September. So what do we got? Let's see, a couple of different health trackers, including thoughts on Garmin Circa, ads in BMWs, that's fun. A new Ford EV truck, that's hopefully more fun. EU making Apple add more cross-platform features. We can talk about that and a few other quick hits. But first, did they even test this?

• 2:05David Imel?

  I have one for YouTube. So we all know that on YouTube, you can send each other videos, right?

• 2:13Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 2:14David Imel?

  They recently implemented this very weird feature where if you, if you use the share sheet and you send it to a friend, whether it's through Slack, through text, whatever, and they click that link, it is now a special tracking link that knows that the friend sent it to you. So then, when you open the link, now you'll have the video, but below the video, instead of just seeing the comments or the description of the video, you'll see a little reply function, which has you reply directly to the person who sent it to you, which is really, really dumb.

• 2:45Andrew Manganelli?

  This whole thing, in general. Talk about, sorry to interrupt this, did we talk about this on the podcast? Because the other day, I sent a video in Slack and it like opened a DM with both of you guys, because you opened it through Slack. But I thought both of you were DMing me and I just assumed it was because we were, you were testing a new feature and I didn't realize it was because I sent the link.

• 3:06David Imel?

  Yeah, this is the other bad thing. Now, yeah, it's, it's, it's very weird. We all know that they need, YouTube is trying to make itself more of a social media platform. There are better ways to do this. I have suggested implementations such as a recommendation feed, where your friends just hit recommend on videos and then it just shows all the videos your friends recommended. Dude, if Instagram, okay, if Instagram's main feature is sending each other reels.

• 3:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is what they're trying to copy with this.

• 3:35David Imel?

  Yeah, sort of what they're trying to copy with this, but there should just be a feed of your friends recommended videos in YouTube.

• 3:42Andrew Manganelli?

  That's Adam pressing that.

• 3:44David Imel?

  Let me get around to the. If that were the case, how would they make money? Answer me that.

• 3:48Speaker 04

  It would make a lot.

• 3:48David Imel?

  Riddle me that.

• 3:49Andrew Manganelli?

  We don't watch only that.

• 3:51David Imel?

  It would keep you on the platform much longer. Not nearly as much as algorithmic slop, bro.

• 3:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, it turns into algorithmic slop and then you don't know where it goes.

• 3:58David Imel?

  The feature they shipped is way worse.

• 4:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, this is really stupid.

• 4:02Speaker 04

  It doesn't clear that they're just copying like the feature where you send someone an Instagram reel, which just opens a DM between you. And now there's messages in YouTube, this is the thing that's new. My theory is they tested this, but only a little bit. They only tested this a tiny bit.

• 4:14David Imel?

  Well, they clearly only tested it a little, little bit, because the actual point of my, did they even test this? Is that now it opens the video and instead of seeing the comments right below the video or the description, it shows a little like reply to the person who sent it to you thing.

• 4:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Like on mobile.

• 4:29David Imel?

  On mobile. And there is, there's a little three-dot icon in the top right, indicating that there are three different sort of menus that you can swipe between. Not very clear at first. Not clear, and I, I just want to get to the general comment section, right? Because like, why would I reply to Andrew in YouTube? Because then he has to open YouTube and read my message in YouTube. And it's like, if a friend sent it to you, they probably texted it to you. They probably sent it over like, it's some sort of messaging app, whatever. Anyway, I want to get to the general comment section. The only way to do that is to touch in the extreme center of the reply, like area,

• 5:09David Imel?

  where, where, well, to touch and then swipe from the center of the reply area to Andrew, right? Because there's the three dots. If you, if you try to swipe from anywhere in that area to get to the next screen, it just doesn't do anything. But the touch target area is like a razor-thin margin in the center of that reply area. Yeah. And if you touch anywhere except for the reply section, you can't get to the comment section. So I legitimately could not figure out how to get to the general comments of this YouTube video. Until I could, I walked over to Andrew and I was like, how does this work? And then he eventually was like.

• 5:47Andrew Manganelli?

  I swiped it in the right spot, essentially.

• 5:48David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 5:49Andrew Manganelli?

  For audio listeners, if you can't, if you remember when we talked about the hype feature, essentially when, under a video in mobile, it almost feels like a bubble now, is like comments and you click it and that's where you type. But if you swipe over, that's where hype is, which I think still exists somehow. And then if you swipe one more time, that's where the reply thing would be, but it defaults to that slide. That's what the three dots he's talking about for each individual page, I guess.

• 6:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Andrew Manganelli?

  And because of where you type, the top says like reply and then under it, it says, like the box for where to type in.

• 6:24David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 6:25Andrew Manganelli?

  If you swipe on the top of the little bubble, nothing happens. Or actually, it was just like going into full screen, I think.

• 6:30David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 6:31Andrew Manganelli?

  And then if you swipe a little under, then it actually swipes the page. So the touch target is razor-thin.

• 6:37David Imel?

  Yeah, just super confusing touch target. And I just also think that replying to your friend that sent it to you in general, inside of YouTube, makes no sense.

• 6:46Speaker 04

  I feel like I can see how this went. They did the usual thing where they're like, we would like people to spend more time on YouTube versus other platforms. And we know that people text each other YouTube videos, but then we want them to stay on YouTube after they watch the video. Kind of like how on Instagram, they might DM each other videos. Okay, so let's do like a 0.1% test where a tiny fraction of accounts, we'll just see if it keeps them on YouTube longer if we have a built-in messaging feature, where instead of replying or commenting in the text thread, they can do it on YouTube. And it did satisfy the metric of keeping people on YouTube longer. So they were like, all right, technically, this is a successful test. Let's roll it out. And now everyone's sending each other videos and text threads and then it opens up and we're getting all this, do you want to keep messaging them on YouTube thing?

• 7:31Speaker 04

  And we kind of don't.

• 7:32Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, Adam Mazari has said that that form of sharing reels is like the reason so much, one of the main reasons people stay on Instagram so long. So YouTube knows why. The problem is, is it's not that YouTube didn't have the feature, it's that Instagram was a place that people used to talk already.

• 7:48David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 7:48Andrew Manganelli?

  So therefore, that first-party integration is so much easier and fluent and recognizable by people. No one on YouTube does that. No one on YouTube talks to their friends on YouTube.

• 7:59David Imel?

  Instagram is already practically a messaging app that happens to have like reels and other stuff built in. YouTube is a consumption app that nobody was talking to each other through before.

• 8:09Speaker 04

  And you know what's funny about that? YouTube used to have.

• 8:12David Imel?

  It did.

• 8:13Speaker 04

  An inbox and a messaging feature. This was back in the day, I don't know when they stopped, when they got rid of it. This might be a trivia question, who knows? But I remember when I first started my YouTube channel, there were channel comments. So you could, kind of like writing on someone's Facebook wall, you could leave a comment on someone's channel. And there were messages that you could just literally like send, you could add someone as a friend and then message them in the inbox. So every single person that subscribed to the MKBHD channel, I would get an email for it and I would use that email to open up their profile and send them a message and write a comment on their profile saying, thanks for subscribing. And my theory was that people would see a comment on someone's channel that says, thanks for subscribing, and they'd go, oh, someone said, thanks for subscribing. Let me check out why they subscribe.

• 8:58Speaker 04

  And they would see my channel and they'll go, oh, that's cool. And they would subscribe to. I don't know if that actually worked.

• 9:02David Imel?

  Growth hacking.

• 9:03Speaker 04

  But I was kind of in the early stages, like if I just say thank you to everyone, maybe that will have some positive impact.

• 9:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Now we just have AI Marquez talk to the fans.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  No, that's actually an Instagram feature. But no, now, so they, I think I had to eventually stop doing that because I was getting too many emails. And I think I did, actually, I did a giveaway once, which then there were like 3,000 emails in one day and I was like, I can't keep doing this.

• 9:27David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:27Speaker 04

  So I stopped doing that and they got rid of the feature. But at one point, there was an inbox on YouTube that was usable.

• 9:34David Imel?

  What is so ironic about this is you can see now how Google Plus would be an amazing thing.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:39David Imel?

  Because that would be a social network where people could easily integrate YouTube videos, because it's also Google, you could share YouTube videos, you could have friends, you could DM, there would be messaging, like now Google Plus would be an amazing idea. But as usual, Google is just too early to everything.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, YouTube is like, they always, they've, they've chased things in different directions. Like today, we talk a lot about how they chase TV. Like your channel is like a TV channel and like all these TV features. But back in the day, they were chasing other things and. I think those might have been better things to chase.

• 10:11Speaker 05

  I don't think it's a problem that they're too early. I think they kill it too soon.

• 10:14Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, to be fair, since I shared with you guys, I've never seen that thing pop up again. And I know I've clicked on other people's YouTube links or sent YouTube.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  This is the other thing too, like Andrew's sent me a video and it's been like chat to Andrew and I'll chat to him. And it doesn't even send him a notification that I like replied to his video.

• 10:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Did you actually do?

• 10:31Speaker 04

  I've done it.

• 10:32David Imel?

  Can I try one right now?

• 10:33Speaker 05

  I also. It might be because he has notifications.

• 10:35Andrew Manganelli?

  While you're trying that, I want to also throw this. So YouTube both clicked on a link in Slack and it like opened that DM that I was confused by.

• 10:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:43Andrew Manganelli?

  If you were to copy that link from Slack and send it to your friend that I don't know.

• 10:49Speaker 04

  It probably.

• 10:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Would it open with me, right?

• 10:51Speaker 04

  Probably.

• 10:52Andrew Manganelli?

  That's.

• 10:52David Imel?

  Unless there's some sort of hidden tracker link that you can't even see in the URL.

• 10:56Speaker 04

  The reason it got annoying is because I would share a video on like threads or Twitter. And then I would get a bunch of notifications that people had accepted my request and wanted to message me.

• 11:05David Imel?

  That has happened.

• 11:06Speaker 04

  And I didn't want to message any of those people.

• 11:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, really?

• 11:08Speaker 04

  I just tweeted to publicly share a video link and it just opened inboxes with everyone who.

• 11:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 04

  Which is insane.

• 11:15Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't even know how I would get to those messages now.

• 11:18David Imel?

  Maybe they turned it off. I don't know. This was happening a lot last week to me.

• 11:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, no.

• 11:21David Imel?

  Because I shared a video on Twitter or something and I was at the gym and I suddenly started getting a bunch of notifications that people were trying to DM me.

• 11:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Maybe they've.

• 11:29David Imel?

  Walked it back a little bit or realized that publicly counts me to be able to share.

• 11:32Andrew Manganelli?

  You did react?

• 11:33David Imel?

  I reacted.

• 11:34Andrew Manganelli?

  I know what.

• 11:36David Imel?

  That's what I'm talking about. It's confusing. I don't understand. Anyway, free business advice YouTube. From a guy who dropped out of college.

• 11:45David Imel?

  All you need is a feed of friends, recommendations, and you just hit recommend on the video. Cause I, look, the feature on Instagram, the best feature on Instagram on reels is when it's, it shows you reels that all your other friends have liked.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  That's.

• 12:01David Imel?

  I love that feature.

• 12:02Speaker 04

  It's actually pretty nice.

• 12:03Andrew Manganelli?

  David, you're thinking too logically, man. These are good features. You need to stop. You need to stop.

• 12:07David Imel?

  Copy this. This is Google. This is Google. But I would love to just like watch the videos that my friends are watching and recommending because then when we meet up in person, we can talk about them.

• 12:16Speaker 04

  It's weirdly the nicest antidote in a while to the like internet. What is it called? The dead, not dead internet, but like where everyone's internet is so personalized that you are the only one seeing the videos that you watch. And everyone else's videos are totally personalized to them. So when you go.

• 12:30David Imel?

  It's like for you effect.

• 12:32Speaker 04

  You go to school the next day, you're like, hey, did you see that video? Nobody else saw that video.

• 12:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 12:36Speaker 04

  This is really the best antidote to that.

• 12:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 12:38Speaker 04

  Anyway.

• 12:38David Imel?

  Hundred percent.

• 12:39Speaker 04

  Speaking of free business ideas, if you're a car company and you want to make a bunch of money, what if you just like put ads on all the cars as soon as they turned on? Wouldn't that be great? I think that would work.

• 12:49David Imel?

  I need to buy a vintage car.

• 12:50Speaker 04

  I think if you had like a high enough tech car, maybe like all of your cars since 2022 have internet connections.

• 12:55Andrew Manganelli?

  2020.

• 12:56Speaker 04

  And maybe there's like a movie coming out. You just, you just like put the trailer on the screen of the car. And then you just make a ton of money. Like that's, that's like a great business idea, right?

• 13:07Andrew Manganelli?

  So it's.

• 13:08Speaker 04

  Am I overlooking anything? Isn't this not great?

• 13:11David Imel?

  Every day we get.

• 13:11Andrew Manganelli?

  I see no issues.

• 13:12David Imel?

  This is crazy.

• 13:13Speaker 04

  All right. Well, I guess I'll tell BMW to do that. Oh, wait, they already did that. People got very annoyed. Yeah.

• 13:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, they, um, people were reporting that they got a Spider-Man ad during their BMW startup this past week. And confirmed by BMW, this quote, special surprise is part of a quote, broader brand partnership and is running from July 27th to August 10th. Basically, it's like certain BMW operating systems are all getting this, but essentially any car made after 2020. When you started it up, you got this little pop up that was, says something about Spider-Man. And if you click it, it then shows this like, it's not a trailer for the movie. It's this weird integration of like a BMW SUV driving down the street, going into the city and then like Spider-Man watching and like zipping around the city.

• 14:05Andrew Manganelli?

  It, it even uses the ambient lighting in your car as part of it. And it's weird. It's terrible.

• 14:14David Imel?

  Unrelated. There are a lot of great pre 2020 BMWs on Cars and Bids. Not now. Yeah. Every, every day when one of these car companies just uses your, your internet connection to do worse and worse things. I just think about getting a vintage car again.

• 14:29Andrew Manganelli?

  It's, this is just a stu-, first of all, in 2023, when they were releasing a bunch of larger infotainment systems. Their senior VP of connected company development claimed, quote, to say I'm selling the screen to play a commercial, I don't see it. It's a private space.

• 14:46David Imel?

  Excuse me?

• 14:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Apparently not that private because here's a Spider-Man ad right for you.

• 14:51David Imel?

  It's a commercial.

• 14:52Andrew Manganelli?

  It's a commercial. Yeah.

• 14:53David Imel?

  Exactly what it is.

• 14:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Called it, I, I kept wanting to.

• 14:56David Imel?

  I don't see it.

• 14:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Article saying that like, that maybe BMW is attempting to put this under the like festive, like, you know, Halloween and Christmas like festive. But I don't even think they're doing this because they called it a brand partnership. Like.

• 15:10David Imel?

  Yeah, they got paid. That's the difference. I mean, I, I can't confirm because I'm not in the back deals, but I assume this Spider-Man thing wasn't just for the lols. Like they got paid to put this here. Yeah, of course.

• 15:21Andrew Manganelli?

  That's what it could have been. It could have been an Easter egg and like just release it to put it somewhere in the car. Maybe there is the integration. Maybe Marvel had a BMW because like there's all across promotion inside a lot of movies as well. But if it's some sort of Easter egg where you have to like tap this steering wheel button four times or do the Konami code or whatever. And then it pops up, then that's a cool Easter egg because it doesn't.

• 15:48David Imel?

  Maybe.

• 15:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Almost force you to watch. To be fair, you had to click it, but it still came up. But like, if this was a, just a, and if this was a buried Easter egg where it gave you a little extra thing about the new Spider-Man. And like somebody quote leaked it and then people were going and searching for it, then it's fun.

• 16:05David Imel?

  I just.

• 16:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Then it turns into an internet thing.

• 16:07David Imel?

  Imagine you buy your house and you go to turn on the sink and red water starts coming out. And it's like.

• 16:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Code red?

• 16:18Andrew Manganelli?

  That's the, you know what I mean?

• 16:19David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 16:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Whatever the Spider-Man.

• 16:20David Imel?

  Yeah, the Spider-Man theme starts flying out of your sink and you're just like, why? I didn't ask for this.

• 16:26Speaker 05

  Because in America, there's two ways to run a successful business. Okay? You can either do the, the Nike, the Apple, the Hermes thing where you convince people somehow to pay a ridiculous markup compared to what it actually costs to make the things. Or.

• 16:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 16:40Speaker 05

  You can be Fortnite where in exchange for paying slightly less money, you can just shovel things that you think people like into their life. You know, season after season after season.

• 16:50David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  And BMW, for some reason, forgot that they're supposed to be a luxury brand and decided that they wanted to be Fortnite, you know? And that's okay.

• 16:59David Imel?

  It's strange philosophically because when we think about like, you have a smart TV in your house, you know? We, at this point, we kind of expect that the Samsung smart TV that you have is going to play ads or the LG.

• 17:09Speaker 05

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, not ads. Special surprise.

• 17:11David Imel?

  Special surprises.

• 17:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Broader brand.

• 17:14David Imel?

  Yeah, LG TV, you have, it's going to play special, special surprises. If you had put like a, I don't know, if you bought a tablet to put in your BMW that was made by Samsung or made by what? I could maybe see an ad playing on that tablet that is not part of your car. But in this analogy, your car is your home, right? It is a place that you sit and you drive and you, you, whatever. I just don't think that built into the infotainment system of the car, similarly to like your sink in your house. There should be things that are automatically playing against your will.

• 17:48Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, first of all, the senior VP of connected company development agrees with you because he called it a private space at BMW. So if anyone disagrees with you, BMW agrees with you.

• 17:59David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Andrew Manganelli?

  I guess then the, first of all, I don't want my tablet selling me ads unless it is cheaper. Apple and Samsung have done this of like trying to sell you, remember when like the fold six came out and was still trying to sell you the fold six in a, in a notification? Yeah, that, uh, this sucks so bad. But yeah, they're like, I could understand. No, I couldn't understand anything. But you would expect the cheaper car companies.

• 18:27Speaker 04

  What was this guy's title again? The senior VP of what?

• 18:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Company, connected company development.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  I would expect that in a company that's making modern cars, where they have internet connections and the ability to download software updates and new ambient lighting settings and random GPS enabled front axle lift. I would not be shocked if the senior VP of connected, whatever you said.

• 18:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Company development.

• 18:53Speaker 04

  Was like, hey, I have an idea. We could make way more money from this if we also made it a billboard. And they did it. Yeah.

• 19:02Andrew Manganelli?

  They had, I still think they had such an opportunity to actually make this almost the exact same thing. But the user had to find it and then it turns into this like scavenger hunt kind of Easter egg thing.

• 19:15Speaker 04

  Way better experience.

• 19:16Andrew Manganelli?

  And goes viral on Twitter and Instagram and everyone's actively trying to find a BMW to do it.

• 19:21Speaker 04

  That would be a better experience, but it would by default reach less people.

• 19:25David Imel?

  Way less eyeballs.

• 19:26Andrew Manganelli?

  I think, well, this is reaching a lot of eyeballs for the wrong reason.

• 19:29Speaker 04

  BMW was like, we can sell you 30 million eyeballs right now.

• 19:33David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 19:33Speaker 04

  And Marvel or whoever Sony was like, deal. And so they just, they just did it.

• 19:38David Imel?

  Yep.

• 19:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Kids movies these days.

• 19:40Speaker 05

  To Ellis's point, that's the only way to make money. You either make a new thing or you squeeze the customer for everything they have.

• 19:45David Imel?

  That's called an shitification.

• 19:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. They already sold you the car. So how do we make more money?

• 19:50David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 19:50Speaker 05

  Let's put an ad on the screen.

• 19:52David Imel?

  I'm going to buy a vintage car.

• 19:53Speaker 05

  Can't wait for BMW season 37, man. Can I, can I have, I have a related reverse. Did they even test this before we move on? Which is I have, I have unlocked reverse because they didn't test this and it's improving my life.

• 20:09Speaker 05

  I like, I've gone from like, I love my LG TV all the way around to like, get this thing out of my house. I hate it so much. And it's because of how poorly made the hardware and software is. But a little bit ago, part of the, so, okay, there's been a bunch of stuff coming out about how a lot of smart TVs are like doing lots of things on your network that you didn't give it permission to. And the modems are held up, but there's lots of traffic going in and out. And that's why a lot of them are like so slow and unresponsive. And my TV, a little bit ago, updated and then presented me with like a new user agreement and the LG terms of service are like a million pages long and they make you sign like 50 of them. Anyway, I realized that this time with this user agreement, there was a later

• 20:53Speaker 05

  button. And I hit the later button and I do this every time I turn on my TV. I'm like, I'm not signing this. And it takes me through the whole page. Every time, my TV has never run so smooth. Somehow it does not have permission to do something it needs, it wants to do. But my internet in my apartment like reads faster when I do speed tests. The TV is more responsive, apps are more responsive. And it's, there's some background process I have not, and you know, I do have to hit later, but I'm pretty, I feel like I've slightly de-shitified. My LG television.

• 21:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Till you like turn your TV on and just instinctively press okay, or like press down twice and it comes back up and accept. And then you're just gonna throw it out the window.

• 21:36Speaker 05

  What's beautiful is I have six separate agreements I need to hit.

• 21:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, no.

• 21:41David Imel?

  Every time you turn it on.

• 21:42Speaker 05

  Well, but only one later button. So even if I slip once and accidentally agree to something, I still have five modems.

• 21:50David Imel?

  Wow.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  That's, I hope it keeps working.

• 21:52David Imel?

  We talked about the Slate truck many times, especially because recently they have put out new pricing. But it turns out Ford has some competition coming.

• 22:02Speaker 04

  They have some competition. They've unveiled the name and starting price of what they're going to have is they're basically their, their midsize electric truck platform. They're calling it Fathom. And it's gonna start at $28,350 plus destination and delivery. So call it right around $30,000 for a small or a midsize electric truck. So basically, I, you know, a lot of the people who are talking about the Slate being not competitive were comparing it to gas trucks. And like the Maverick comes up a lot being like a $28 to $30,000 truck, which is fully equipped, obviously, because it doesn't need to spend money on the battery. So it can do all of the screen, air conditioning, all the other, you know, power windows and stuff like that.

• 22:44Speaker 04

  But there, the Slate was, I guess I was defending it because it kind of felt like it was a one of one without any real competition as a electric truck. But now this will be a one to one competitor. This will be another small electric truck option at this low price from Ford.

• 23:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm already confused by that because midsize.

• 23:05Speaker 04

  Or midsize, yeah. Officially, the category is called midsize. I think that would be bigger than the Slate truck. Like the Rivian is a midsize.

• 23:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, but that's way, that's like significantly bigger than the Slate truck. That's like four door.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  It's two, yeah.

• 23:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Google says like Tacoma, Ranger, Canyon, Frontier, like.

• 23:22Speaker 04

  All about Rivian sized.

• 23:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, closer to Rivian R1T.

• 23:26Speaker 04

  Yes. So yeah, that would naturally have still more seats than the Slate truck. This appears to be a more well-equipped truck than the Slate truck, but we're gonna get way more options later. This is gonna be coming in 2027. But it's just interesting to see us actually getting something responding to Slate and slotting into this absolutely baseline, super cheap electric car category. We've been waiting for sub $30,000 EVs that don't suck for 10 years now, 15 years now.

• 23:53Andrew Manganelli?

  It would be really funny and super American if the first under 30K EV that like really slapped was a pickup truck.

• 24:01Speaker 04

  It sounds like that's what we're gonna do. Like, because we wanted a Model 2 for forever. We have a Model 3, obviously, knocking on the door of 30 something. Cyber Cav is still not here. Shocker.

• 24:12David Imel?

  Just give me a key truck.

• 24:14Speaker 04

  Give it time. That's what, okay, I hear that a lot, but people don't really buy those.

• 24:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, I just want, I'm surprised why.

• 24:21David Imel?

  We can't. Yeah, because they can only go like 60 miles an hour.

• 24:25Speaker 04

  Well, I guess if you could buy a gas one, like people, people just default to buying better stuff here.

• 24:31Andrew Manganelli?

  There is this guy, this is such a tangent, in like Detroit that has a YouTube channel that's like making the basis for like what you're talking about or the platform for it. And like, there's a lot of external modification you can do. I don't know how legal is. Anyway.

• 24:47David Imel?

  Probably not very.

• 24:48Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm surprised, that was so basic. I'm sure there's more into it. But this feels like, I would guess this is closer to Ranger size when I want the Maverick sized, which is still four doors, smaller bed, a way, a much smaller truck, but feels like something that would be closer to this price range. A Ranger is like quite a bit bigger than a Maverick.

• 25:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:09Andrew Manganelli?

  And all of them feel like nothing compared to an F-150. And then all of the truck guys are gonna be like, F-150 is a ladies' truck. Sorry, you need the F-750.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  F-150 is a full-size pickup truck. And I think if you ever like sit in one, you're like, oh, my God, this is a massive truck.

• 25:25Andrew Manganelli?

  It's a big truck.

• 25:26Speaker 04

  So yeah, this, this will be, I'm curious to keep an eye on this. It's also a platform that can theoretically be more than just this pickup truck. So we'll see more versions of low end EVs from Ford based on this platform when they start making them. So TBD, just interesting headline.

• 25:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 25:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:40David Imel?

  Fathom.

• 25:41Speaker 05

  Didn't they stop making the Lightning?

• 25:43Speaker 04

  They did stop producing the Lightning. The, yes.

• 25:47Speaker 05

  Is this where they're refocusing their electric efforts, I guess?

• 25:50Speaker 04

  Basically, yeah. And I think a lot of people read into discontinuing the Lightning as, oh, well, the one thing, I mean, they make the Mustang Mach-E, but like the one thing you expect to be successful from Ford, the electric version of their best-selling vehicle, didn't work well enough to sell. They must be done with electric. But they're sort of repositioning into a way cheaper electric car. What does a regular F-150 usually start at?

• 26:12David Imel?

  Uh, let me see. It's the most popular vehicle in America, so it can't be that crazy.

• 26:15Andrew Manganelli?

  I'd guess 45.

• 26:17David Imel?

  Price. Well, is it a fleet one?

• 26:18Speaker 05

  MSRP is $37,000.

• 26:20David Imel?

  So very interesting to me that Ford is making an electric vehicle that is cheaper than its cheap gas truck.

• 26:27Speaker 04

  Gas truck.

• 26:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, one of its gas trucks.

• 26:30Speaker 04

  One of its gas.

• 26:30Andrew Manganelli?

  And an uncomparable gas truck. Because they're just totally different things. Like, what does a Ranger start at?

• 26:35Speaker 04

  The Maverick is, yeah. The Ranger's like 33, the Maverick's like.

• 26:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. So then it's more expensive than, or no, no, no, it is still cheaper. Yeah, sorry.

• 26:41David Imel?

  I mean, if it's cheaper, then it's like cheapest truck. That's kind of crazy.

• 26:46Andrew Manganelli?

  My guess is why they're pivoting to this is F1 people still either or believe they tow.

• 26:54Speaker 04

  F-150 people?

• 26:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes. And therefore towing with electric significantly gets harder. Therefore, that's why they're doing the new, and they're not like totally ditching it. They're doing the like electric with gas generator kind of hybrid. But I bet people looking for whether this is Maverick or Ranger sized, less people in that tow while still wanting a truck bed, et cetera, et cetera. So I guess it would hit better, even though it's not the most popular selling vehicle in the US.

• 27:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. If people are honest about themselves and what they really are getting a truck for, they can probably get the smaller one.

• 27:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. And if they're not honest about themselves, they'll comment on this.

• 27:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:34David Imel?

  I tow once a year and it's so worth carrying around 3,000 extra pounds every time I drive. Anyway, uh, what's the next story? The EU is requiring cross-platform clipboard from Apple to Windows.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  I saw this.

• 27:49Andrew Manganelli?

  So Adam and Marquez seemed interested in this. I wrote down some notes really quick.

• 27:54David Imel?

  Yeah. Okay. Explain what it is.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  So I guess first, the cross, the clipboard feature, like you can copy and paste, obviously, on a Mac. There is a continuity feature built into macOS and iOS and iPadOS that lets you copy and paste between devices. So I use this all the time. I'll copy a password from one passwords on my Mac. And I go into the text field on my iPhone and I hit paste and it pastes it from my Mac. It's pretty nice. It's a super useful feature. It's just for the devices in the Mac ecosystem, the Apple ecosystem.

• 28:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Microsoft filed an EU inoperability request asking Apple to open, it's called Universal Clipboard, which does what you just said. And according to Mac rumors, it seems as Apple's currently working on that right now. Now, I guess the issue with, if it happened right now with what it was, every time you went to paste something, you would have to grant permissions, which is awful. The thing they're working on.

• 28:53David Imel?

  Airdrop, it's not like the worst thing.

• 28:55Speaker 04

  It's a one-click, maybe.

• 28:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Every time you paste, having to accept permissions would be terrible.

• 29:00Speaker 04

  It's cross-device. Yeah. It's like one more click. It'd be annoying, but.

• 29:04Andrew Manganelli?

  I guess every time you're pasting would be really annoying. This would be, so this would open it up to, well, that's what would happen if it were available now. What they're working on would be something where allowing copy and paste the clipboard to be cross-platform through device pairing with a one-time permission. So like, it would be a device pair. I think they said similar to something they did in iOS 26 with like watch notifications. There's something, I didn't fully, I don't use Apple stuff. I didn't even know Universal Clipboard was a thing.

• 29:38Speaker 04

  Oh, it's amazing.

• 29:38Andrew Manganelli?

  So I'm learning about it through this.

• 29:40Speaker 04

  I use it all the time. So it's very annoying when it doesn't work.

• 29:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. And I have to assume that, this is one of the things where if you are in the Apple ecosystem and you use it, you know what it is. If you're not, you don't really know what it is. So the people who are, Microsoft is claiming this is one of the most requested productivity features that they would like added to Windows because there are enough people that use a iPhone and a Windows laptop. Presumably, probably for work. I'm sure so many people use stuff for work.

• 30:08Speaker 04

  Absolutely for work.

• 30:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 30:09Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 30:11Andrew Manganelli?

  So Apple is claiming that they are, let me see, that they're introducing cross-device copy and paste is a significant engineering effort with work expected to be completed by fall of 2027, which is when it would probably go into beta following full release after that. So we're talking like 2028 by the time this potentially comes out. And as far as I know, possibly only for the EU.

• 30:34Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 30:35Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know if that means it would come here eventually, if they're gonna do it anyways.

• 30:39Speaker 04

  So tell me, the headline you wrote here is EU requires. So is the EU requiring this? Or is this just something that Microsoft requested and Apple is?

• 30:48David Imel?

  Working on it.

• 30:49Andrew Manganelli?

  I guess like there, yeah, maybe the EU is not requiring it, but it's being requested through the EU inoperability, which is under the DMCA Act and.

• 30:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a request.

• 31:00Andrew Manganelli?

  It's a request, the Digital Markets Act through the EU.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  So it hasn't been like.

• 31:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Seems like Apple's working on it.

• 31:05Speaker 04

  Okay. It hasn't been put into law, but Apple is working on it anyway.

• 31:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 31:10Speaker 05

  Okay. Here's my question about this. Is this going, not this in particular, but is all this going a little too far?

• 31:17Speaker 04

  That is also my question.

• 31:18Andrew Manganelli?

  I think there is no middle ground on this headline. I think it is either

• 31:26Andrew Manganelli?

  EU's or like governing agencies are forcing tech companies to do too much with little knowledge about tech, which is like.

• 31:36Andrew Manganelli?

  At the head of like fair, like we know governing agencies don't know a lot about technology. Are they stifling things? But also there's a, I'm sure a whole nother part of this that's like 2027, Apple can't just get this going right now. You know they can. They're actively being a monopoly.

• 31:52David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Andrew Manganelli?

  So I don't think there's a middle ground here in anyone responding to this, even though there probably is a middle ground of like, this does actually take a whole new team to do this because of the variables for something like Windows. They obviously can do cross-platform stuff way easier because they run the full stack, but also like, yeah, EU probably is gonna, or like governing agencies are gonna screw some things up here every once in a while, even if they're good, they're good ideas on the surface.

• 32:19David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 32:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 32:21David Imel?

  The primary question here is that like interoperability generally gives consumers more control and more options. And consumers having more options allows capitalism to work better. And when you, when you have two, when you have a duopoly in a market, you kind of generally have to make sure that there's enough interoperability so that people don't get locked into one. And slowly that duopoly just merges into a monopoly. But the question becomes like, because these platforms are both like now part of our foundational daily life, but they're also companies. At what point is the regulation of forcing interoperability

• 33:02David Imel?

  just stifling the innovation and benefit of one company? And that's the weird, that's the really weird middle ground that I think these regulatory bodies have to, have to mess with. The US usually airs on the side of just like, let the free market, free market play out. The EU generally airs on the side of like, the consumer is the most important thing we should care about. So.

• 33:27Speaker 04

  It's been interesting to watch. I think to that question you asked, Adam, my, it seems to come down to have you as a company been anti-competitive in the past. Cause this is how I see it. Like we've, we've seen the same, the same headlines with like adding USB type C to the iPhone. Instead of the law being, hey, the iPhone has lightning port, you need to make it USB type C. It wasn't exactly that. It was you must have a standardized single port across all these things. And so USB type C was the obvious answer. And.

• 33:58David Imel?

  I think the law was that every device that charges has to have USB type C.

• 34:02Speaker 04

  Which is fine. And everyone agreed with that because we all like USB type C. And Apple is using lightning. And so they, they update now everything is USB type C everywhere. But if you are, let's say, cause then this is like another step over the line. This is, okay, we have interoperability between Mac and iPhone. You need to loop Windows into that too. If you were just like erase the company names and erase the history of the companies in the past, and you decided you were going to build a business or a product and you just make two products that work really well with each other. And then the EU comes along and goes, hey, you have to make that also work with these other companies' products here. They just added work to your table. They just made it less like special and made it harder to work well. That would feel like they're, they're overstepping.

• 34:46David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 04

  But it doesn't feel like they're overstepping because we all like the conclusion and also Apple has been anti-competitive. So we're okay with this.

• 34:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I think the EU DMA Act though, is specifically targeted at tech gatekeepers, which is a list of specific companies.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  So it comes down to has your company been anti-competitive?

• 35:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Which also in a sense feels like if you are big enough to be a gatekeeper, it's, it's hard, it's harder to call it stifling because it isn't mom and pop X and Y thing that now you have to, it's like, these are trillion dollar companies.

• 35:21David Imel?

  And I think we fairly, we've pretty fairly assumed that the only way your product gets to be that popular is not just from being really good, but also because of some additional protective behavior. And that's why they're able to step in.

• 35:34Andrew Manganelli?

  My favorite part about this was just that like, in the DMA, the whole thing is to be like, it's to help third-party companies not get kept out of things by these gatekeepers. Yet this whole request is Microsoft asking Apple. Like it makes it seem like little Microsoft is having such a rough time that like big old Apple should throw to bone. But I also, well.

• 35:58David Imel?

  There are B to B.

• 36:00Andrew Manganelli?

  In that tier. Yeah. But like, I wonder if though, this feels like it's, depending on your point of view, picking on Apple and/or Apple doing what it should. Like, I just don't know if there's the equivalent on the other side of an easy maneuver interoperability between other products that could be like, well, we want this to work on Apple and Microsoft's stifling us. It's just because Apple has it where like, there's nothing to attack on the Android, Microsoft's side right now.

• 36:32David Imel?

  That's a good point.

• 36:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Where like, maybe, hopefully they would do the same thing to the other one.

• 36:37David Imel?

  So what you're saying is Windows sucks.

• 36:40Andrew Manganelli?

  As a Windows user, Windows sucks.

• 36:43David Imel?

  Yeah. If, if they have to force Apple to give Windows features, but there ain't no features on Windows, they gotta force Apple to have.

• 36:51Speaker 05

  It is, it's because there's, there's less like ecosystem. There's not.

• 36:54David Imel?

  I know. It's locked. I know. It's ecosystem locked.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  I'm trying to think of some of the ones. Aren't there some like with, with Android phones and Chromebooks? Aren't there some like, you're logged into your Google account and there's some sync that works.

• 37:05Andrew Manganelli?

  And this still is nowhere near as nice. It's like a device paired rather than like just like full stack, just my Apple iCloud account.

• 37:14Speaker 05

  It's, it's copy and paste. Like it's not, this is not like difficult to implement, you know, we.

• 37:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, like it's a clipboard.

• 37:21Speaker 05

  It's not like Superbook. Like imagine the EU is like, is, does RealMeme do Superbook? Is that their?

• 37:26David Imel?

  It's Oppo.

• 37:27Speaker 05

  Damn it. It's like picture the EU being like, yo Oppo, we love Superbook. Every device that plugs into a Superbook charger, regardless of if you make it, needs to charge that fast. Like that would literally be impossible. That's an, that's an impossible interoperability ask. But copy and paste, you know, I think we've.

• 37:45David Imel?

  Well, it wouldn't be impossible, but I think it's just that that type of feature is not even remotely gate-kept.

• 37:50Andrew Manganelli?

  I think what Ellis is saying though is like, copy and paste is almost like a quality of like, it is an expected thing to happen. And like, it's such an easy thing that everyone knows.

• 38:00Speaker 05

  Your charger needs to somehow work with every single device, regardless of the transformers and, and charge it at the 700 watts or whatever Superbook does nowadays, you know?

• 38:09David Imel?

  Here's one, cause we've been using a bunch of different browsers. Chrome, one of the biggest browsers, right? Arguably the biggest browser. You can actively sync with the mobile Chrome app. So the mobile Chrome app on your phone syncs with the mobile Chrome app on your desktop. Poor old Apple makes Safari and you can't actively sync your tabs and bookmarks from Chrome in Safari.

• 38:29Andrew Manganelli?

  I think you can.

• 38:31David Imel?

  Not actively sync. You can import them and export.

• 38:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, like you're saying.

• 38:35David Imel?

  Have them live update the way they do.

• 38:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Like between your phone and, like if you're on Safari on your phone and Chrome. But I think the difference is if you have Chrome on your iPhone, which would be the interoperability. We need to stop using this word.

• 38:49David Imel?

  Interoperability.

• 38:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Like you can though, put Chrome on an iPhone, on the app and like that will sync, correct?

• 38:56David Imel?

  In a world where there's no Chrome on the iPhone, we, we'd be asking Google to make Safari able to sync with.

• 39:05Andrew Manganelli?

  I think you would be making Google make an iOS app in that sense. If it didn't exist, I think the other thing would be you need to, assuming it didn't exist because Chrome didn't put it on iOS, you would be forcing Google to make an iOS app.

• 39:20David Imel?

  Yeah. I guess I'm, I'm making a convoluted situation where there's no Chrome on the iPhone. There's only Safari.

• 39:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, it would be who's, who's blocking that would be the one getting told.

• 39:29Speaker 05

  Apple makes a Chrome extension called iCloud bookmarks that syncs your Chrome bookmarks live to your iCloud.

• 39:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Apple's such a good guy, man.

• 39:37Speaker 05

  iCloud. Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's made by Apple and it syncs it to your iCloud and then those bookmarks show up in Safari.

• 39:45David Imel?

  Just bookmarks.

• 39:46Speaker 05

  Just Book.

• 39:47David Imel?

  Not like.

• 39:49Speaker 04

  Not your tabs.

• 39:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Not like open tabs that you're actively browsing on.

• 39:53David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 39:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 39:54David Imel?

  It's still something.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I think the thing that I think about with this is like, does it actively harm the consumer? Because like, if you think back to like, Apple not putting RCS on the iPhone, that was like, that's making their iPhone customers have a less secure experience when they use SMS.

• 40:10David Imel?

  Right.

• 40:10Andrew Manganelli?

  So the EU had to step in. This I feel like isn't that. This is like a competitive advantage.

• 40:16David Imel?

  Convenience.

• 40:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Copy paste.

• 40:18Speaker 05

  I disagree. I think it is, I think it is harmful to consumers solely because one of the, the main, not main, but I would describe it as the, the universal clipboard is top five Apple ecosystem features that make me want to stay in the Apple ecosystem.

• 40:32David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 40:33Speaker 05

  And.

• 40:33David Imel?

  Is it? Yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 05

  And, and removing any sort of freedom of choice from the consumer is, you know.

• 40:39David Imel?

  Yeah. But the argument would be, it's just a good feature.

• 40:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 40:43David Imel?

  The argument from Microsoft would probably be like, or from, from Apple would probably be, well, Microsoft could make universal copy paste between its phone and computer. Oh.

• 40:54David Imel?

  And they have the option to make a competitive, well,

• 41:00David Imel?

  I don't know if they do now. They did 15 years ago and they failed. So that would probably be Apple's argument.

• 41:06Speaker 04

  There was a world.

• 41:07David Imel?

  There was a world where the Windows could have worked.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. There was also a world five years ago where this continuity was like added as a feature. There was a world where this didn't exist. So Apple came along and went, hey, we have iPhone, we have iPad, we have Mac, we have this continuity feature where you can use your iPhone as the webcam for your Mac and we can like live copy and paste things between them.

• 41:28David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 41:28Speaker 04

  Oh, great. Convenient feature. I don't see any harm in not actively developing that for other people's platforms.

• 41:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 41:35Speaker 04

  But it would be nice.

• 41:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 41:38Speaker 04

  So.

• 41:38Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, Apple's never going to like purposely go out and build this themselves without someone to tell, because it's a waste of resources in their eyes.

• 41:46David Imel?

  It's the obvious.

• 41:47Andrew Manganelli?

  And because part of that is because, well, no, no, what I'm saying is.

• 41:51Speaker 05

  I guarantee you in the next 30 seconds, I can find, I can find five things on the internet that Apple does that is a bigger waste of their.

• 41:58David Imel?

  Infinite resources. Why would they just go out and do something to make it easier for other people to use a Windows computer?

• 42:06Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm not saying this is better for their consumers. I'm saying it's better for their pocket. Like it's a waste of their resources in the sense of direct ROI to them. Like maybe some users of it, but they've clearly run the stats and that.

• 42:17David Imel?

  What positive?

• 42:18Andrew Manganelli?

  That is not positive for them, even though it's positive for their consumers.

• 42:22Speaker 05

  Maybe there's some guy out there in Belgium who has to use a Windows computer for his sick gaming rig and he also wants to own an iPhone.

• 42:30Speaker 04

  That's what I'm saying.

• 42:32David Imel?

  You know the Tim Cook quote? Just buy your mom.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  Buy your mom an iPhone.

• 42:36Andrew Manganelli?

  What, I'm still saying though.

• 42:37Speaker 05

  More of a reason to, because you can copy and paste to your PC.

• 42:40David Imel?

  No.

• 42:41Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm not saying it's good for Apple users. I'm saying Apple doesn't give a that it's good for Apple users.

• 42:46Speaker 04

  Here's one that they haven't added yet. The continuity camera feature.

• 42:49David Imel?

  Uh huh.

• 42:50Speaker 04

  So whenever you open Zoom or any video calling app, annoyingly they're like, would you like to use, I hate this feature too.

• 42:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I never want to use this.

• 42:56Speaker 04

  But this is in the same exact set of walls, right?

• 43:00David Imel?

  Sure.

• 43:00Speaker 04

  It asks you, do you want to use your iPhone as a webcam?

• 43:03David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 04

  For this video call?

• 43:05David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  If you hit yes, it has this whole Bluetooth handshake and it like immediately shows you your live feed from your iPhone, which is a much higher quality camera than the webcam built into your Mac.

• 43:13David Imel?

  Generally.

• 43:13Speaker 04

  That is an option for you, right? Do we think that that should also be included in this for Windows PCs, for example? Or is it just not a good enough feature that we don't care?

• 43:24David Imel?

  I just think that it's not, it's not a feature that keeps you in the Apple ecosystem because generally people's webcams are good enough.

• 43:31Speaker 04

  For some non-zero percent group of people.

• 43:34David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 04

  They're like, I gotta keep using my Mac because I can use my iPhone as a webcam.

• 43:40David Imel?

  But that is such a small group of people.

• 43:43Speaker 04

  The amount of people texting Android to iPhone is like more than people texting iPhone to iPhone.

• 43:48Speaker 05

  That feature isn't actively harming the consumer though. Going back to my point. It's just a nice feature.

• 43:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, it'd be nice if they made it for everyone. I'm all for that. I just don't see the point in forcing them to because it's not actively hurting anyone.

• 44:00David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  I think the RCS SMS thing was actively hurting, not really hurting, but you know what I mean. Like it's a bad situation, potentially hurting people.

• 44:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 44:08Speaker 04

  This is not that. It's just a nice feature.

• 44:10David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. It also, and if I'm like, David's right, I put requires, I don't see anything requires just that Apple is responding to a request. Apple might just be like.

• 44:22David Imel?

  Good guy.

• 44:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, here's a request that scores us, not good guy, not good guy, because they would have done it themselves if they were a good guy, but like.

• 44:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 44:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Microsoft files a request, request is out there, we have to respond to it.

• 44:34David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 44:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Maybe this is one thing that's, you know, still going to take a while, but the team is small enough, it paints us in a good light for a minute. It's like when they started pretending they cared about repairability for a while. Like, good headline. Here we go.

• 44:48David Imel?

  Companies will also preemptively add things that are not that big of a lift for them in order to make the EU think that they're not trying to be a gatekeeper. Like Meta has done this various times. Like when they were trying to figure out whether or not WhatsApp was a gatekeeper and then WhatsApp like improved its features like the day before the deadline. And they're like, I guess you're not. Like you would have been, you would have been. And yeah, I think for them, to your point, Marquez, non-zero amount of people who care about this. And Apple's like, I don't think that we're gonna lose Mac users because the only people that actually need this are the people that actively are using an iPhone and a Windows computer. And I don't think it's gonna stop people from buying MacBooks and

• 45:33David Imel?

  Apple probably knows that. So it's possible that in the future, the EU could have required this if they determined that it was a primary core feature that needed to have interoperability.

• 45:44Speaker 04

  They still could.

• 45:45David Imel?

  They still could and it's probably smart of Apple to get ahead of it.

• 45:48Andrew Manganelli?

  My favorite thing in the Verge comments for this was like a bunch of pissed off EU regulators who have their iPhones, but all their work computers are Windows and government agencies are like, ah, I can't copy.

• 46:01David Imel?

  When I'm working at coffee shops, dude, it's like iPhone and like the oldest, best Lenovo laptop you've ever seen.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Lenovo business laptop.

• 46:09David Imel?

  The biggest bezel, like, it's crazy. Yeah.

• 46:13Andrew Manganelli?

  It's funny, we've argued for this for so long and I didn't even know it existed before. And I'm just like, I don't care.

• 46:18David Imel?

  It's amazing, but it doesn't work all the time. I've been having problems with it working recently, maybe because I'm on the betas. How do you, okay, I have a question for you, Andrew. Cause when I.

• 46:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Slack it.

• 46:29Speaker 04

  Slack it to yourself?

• 46:30Andrew Manganelli?

  I just slack myself everything.

• 46:31David Imel?

  That's crazy. I used to use Telegram for that. I would Telegram myself every link that I wanted to open on my laptop.

• 46:40Speaker 04

  Damn. You know, there's apps for this.

• 46:43Andrew Manganelli?

  It's funny, you guys, I don't do like tab syncing in my phone. I think, I don't know. I like, I like my things to be separate. I don't want them all to be the same thing. I like the fresh start when I go somewhere.

• 46:55David Imel?

  All the time you get like a text with a video link on your phone. You want to watch it on your laptop or something.

• 47:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. Oh, I also do, I use in web Google messages on my.

• 47:04David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:05Andrew Manganelli?

  I just use like web messages as a tab.

• 47:08Speaker 05

  I have a psychotic answer to your question.

• 47:10David Imel?

  Okay.

• 47:10Speaker 05

  I will press play on the video side. It starts on my phone, then I will stop it.

• 47:14David Imel?

  Go to your history.

• 47:15Speaker 05

  Oh, I do that. I do it all the time.

• 47:16Andrew Manganelli?

  That's a really good.

• 47:17Speaker 04

  That's actually probably the best use of the history.

• 47:20Andrew Manganelli?

  It definitely is.

• 47:20David Imel?

  I do that for my projector because my projector runs Android TV and there's no way to just like copy paste to my projector.

• 47:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Or just to, yeah, to the YouTube app on your TV. Like, oh, play it on my phone. Oh, go to my library history on the TV and then.

• 47:36David Imel?

  Play it for two seconds. Yeah. Wow.

• 47:38Speaker 05

  The workarounds that we do.

• 47:40Speaker 04

  I've had, I have hacks where like I, I know I want to download, I have a flight coming up, so I want to download YouTube videos onto my iPad so I can watch them. And I'll find a video on my phone that I would like to watch later on my iPad. So I have to remind myself later to find it again and download it.

• 47:54David Imel?

  Why don't you just save to watch later?

• 47:56Speaker 04

  Cause I don't use watch later.

• 47:57David Imel?

  I use it constantly.

• 47:58Speaker 04

  So I will save the video to my like raindrop.io bookmarks folder so that before the flight, I can open those bookmarks in the YouTube app and download them all.

• 48:08David Imel?

  Why don't you just use watch later? That's what the feature is for.

• 48:11Speaker 04

  Cause it's, sometimes it's not all YouTube videos. Sometimes it's a couple of articles I want to read offline. Sometimes I'm trying to all this stuff, but the YouTube videos I have to download because I can't watch them offline without downloading.

• 48:21David Imel?

  Okay. I could see that. Yeah.

• 48:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Watch later to me is a playlist I never go to, but I hope YouTube thinks I actually want to watch this later and they'll recommend it to me. It's basically me being like, it's okay to not watch this right now and then forget about it.

• 48:34David Imel?

  I always forget about it.

• 48:35Speaker 05

  Videos in your watch later do show up on your homepage.

• 48:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 48:38David Imel?

  They do.

• 48:39Andrew Manganelli?

  And it'll say like from watch. Okay. So I just hope that that happens one day and then I probably click watch later again on it the next time.

• 48:46David Imel?

  I have like 600 videos in my watch later.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Take a guess at how many videos are currently in my watch later.

• 48:51David Imel?

  How long have you been using watch later?

• 48:52Speaker 04

  For a while.

• 48:53David Imel?

  I think there's 350 videos in your watch later.

• 48:56Andrew Manganelli?

  700.

• 48:58David Imel?

  There are 716 videos in my watch later.

• 49:00Speaker 05

  I've got you beat.

• 49:01Andrew Manganelli?

  I only have 30.

• 49:02Speaker 05

  I have 910.

• 49:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, sorry.

• 49:05David Imel?

  And I would say about, about half of these are watched. No, actually about a third.

• 49:11Speaker 04

  You don't remove it once you watch it?

• 49:12David Imel?

  I, no.

• 49:14Andrew Manganelli?

  What?

• 49:15Speaker 04

  Okay, wait, yeah. Now that we're far down this rabbit hole, this is a problem that I have had the past couple of days. I have like 600, 700 something videos in my watch later. Do I just delete them and start fresh?

• 49:25David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 04

  You say keep them.

• 49:27David Imel?

  The more useful feature of watch later is that when you add it to watch later, it will then show up at the top of your YouTube feed the next time you open YouTube. That is a more, yes.

• 49:37Speaker 04

  That's nice.

• 49:37David Imel?

  That makes it more useful to me than a folder of videos that I want to watch.

• 49:41Speaker 04

  That's nice.

• 49:42David Imel?

  Because I very rarely go to YouTube to be like, look at my backlog. No, it's like, feed me algorithm.

• 49:48Speaker 04

  I just, I just, I sometimes save videos that I know I don't want to watch right now, but I have a flight in two days. I'm like, that's when I'll watch that. It's a 30 minute video. I don't have time right now.

• 49:58David Imel?

  You just download it.

• 49:59Speaker 04

  But I'm on my phone and when I find it and I want to watch it on my iPad. That's the dilemma.

• 50:03David Imel?

  Interesting. You know, there's a feature now on the iPhone where on the App Store, you can hit like download to your other computer. You can download apps.

• 50:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:14David Imel?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 04

  You can download apps to other Apple devices through the App Store and through the Play Store. You should just be able to do that with videos too.

• 50:22David Imel?

  I, that, YouTube, free suggestion.

• 50:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:24David Imel?

  I have a bunch of logged in devices. Let me download, but tell it, tell another device to download.

• 50:30Speaker 05

  Guys, guys, this is called consulting. We don't do this for free.

• 50:33David Imel?

  I really want the feature so bad. I'm willing to give it away for free.

• 50:36Speaker 05

  What if we did it as a social feature where you hit download and it downloads it on your friend's phone and then they have it.

• 50:42Speaker 04

  And then it opens a chat window?

• 50:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:45Speaker 04

  And then you have a conversation. Anyway, I think we could do a full episode, like a bonus episode or like a segment on like little dumb workarounds that we do because features don't exist.

• 50:55David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:55Speaker 04

  I think that would be fun.

• 50:56Speaker 05

  Can we also in real time vibe code all of these features and see if we come out with a working YouTube?

• 51:02David Imel?

  The hardest part of this is realizing that you have done workaround features because you've been doing them for so long that they're just normal.

• 51:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, that you didn't even think about.

• 51:10David Imel?

  You're like, oh, you know, I do kind of do this.

• 51:12Speaker 04

  I guess I do watch that for two seconds and then go on my projector and go to history like.

• 51:16David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 51:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is funny. Well.

• 51:19Speaker 05

  Let us know what your favorite hacks are.

• 51:20Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm currently cleaning my watch later.

• 51:22Speaker 04

  That's funny. Yeah. I opened my watch later. I had one video.

• 51:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Deleted it. I think it was there by accident, honestly.

• 51:28David Imel?

  You're also in inbox zero, guys. I could see you doing.

• 51:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, inbox zero. Yeah.

• 51:32Speaker 05

  I'm picturing like the YouTube, I'm assuming somewhere out there, some YouTube employees are hearing us have this discussion.

• 51:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes, hello.

• 51:39Speaker 05

  And.

• 51:41David Imel?

  You there?

• 51:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Write this down.

• 51:43Speaker 05

  And I can only imagine they're just like thinking about how every single tiny change they make to the platform, you know, affects hundreds of millions of customers.

• 51:52David Imel?

  Billions of people.

• 51:52Speaker 05

  Every day. And they're here to be like, they should overhaul everything like this. What's the worst that could happen?

• 51:58Andrew Manganelli?

  We know better than them.

• 51:59David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 51:59Andrew Manganelli?

  We know better than the millions of other customers, I'm saying.

• 52:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 52:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Change to the five people.

• 52:03Speaker 04

  I would consider myself a professional YouTube user.

• 52:07Speaker 05

  That's it?

• 52:07Speaker 04

  I think that's true. I, I use YouTube a lot.

• 52:12David Imel?

  Okay, but also, also counterpoint, counterpoint, most people aren't. So, and companies make.

• 52:18David Imel?

  Features based on what most people do, not what the power users do.

• 52:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, unfortunately.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  And most people.

• 52:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Listen to waveform.

• 52:26Speaker 05

  Listen to waveform.

• 52:27Speaker 04

  I think the, I think the download thing.

• 52:30Speaker 05

  Are born in California.

• 52:33Speaker 04

  I think most people download videos on their device to watch it later when they don't have an internet connection, right? That's, that's the Netflix thing. That's, yeah. So I think, I think they should build around that. They should go, ah, you're going to, the only reason you're hitting download is because you're going to watch this later when you don't have an internet connection. And you have a watch later feature. So you should like sort of synergize.

• 52:54David Imel?

  Well, they did. Cause there's an auto download feature.

• 52:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, there is.

• 52:58David Imel?

  YouTube and it has, it downloads you videos that it thinks you want to watch automatically.

• 53:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, but there, it's wrong.

• 53:03David Imel?

  Is, it is wrong. I would say about one fifth of the videos I actually want to watch, but it does, there is a hit rate of some kind. It's not, it's not high.

• 53:12Andrew Manganelli?

  It's not zero.

• 53:14David Imel?

  It's not high. Um, anyway, that's the European Union.

• 53:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:17David Imel?

  So.

• 53:19Speaker 05

  Do you actually want to hit this Firefox topic or not?

• 53:21Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll go really fast.

• 53:22David Imel?

  Okay.

• 53:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, Firefox. It's the browser that I say I love all the time, yet could never answer a single reason as to why I love it other than pretty icon. And I've been using it for a decade.

• 53:33David Imel?

  Chrome.

• 53:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes, not Chrome.

• 53:35David Imel?

  Not Google.

• 53:36Andrew Manganelli?

  They added a new feature and I feel like this is the first time I've brought a browser feature to the table because you guys are all masochists when it comes to browsers and anyways.

• 53:46David Imel?

  Four browsers pinned to my dock right now.

• 53:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Y'all are crazy. Um, anyways, they just added in the right click menu, open in split view, which is where in any link you can right click and then instead of like open a new tab, open a new window, there's a split view and it will create a tab group of those two. You can click between the split view and that will change the URL bar. So you can change it in that. It has been super helpful in writing the podcast because earlier in the week I will just open a doc and throw the links to all the headlines we want to talk about. And now just in the dock, I can right click and open each one, write down all my bullet points. Um, and then it's there.

• 54:26Speaker 04

  Did you know that every browser has this feature?

• 54:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Not Firefox. Firefox may have had this for years. I've just never seen that specific thing.

• 54:34Speaker 05

  I was waiting for him to say that same thing.

• 54:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, I still need to tell them a couple of things they need to work out. First of all.

• 54:41David Imel?

  It's not perfect.

• 54:41Andrew Manganelli?

  It feels like.

• 54:42Speaker 05

  Safari does not have this feature.

• 54:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Safari doesn't.

• 54:45David Imel?

  All right. Well, have I ever recommended Safari, Ellis?

• 54:48Andrew Manganelli?

  My two biggest gripes. When the, uh, when there's something open in split view, you then lose the option to open something in split view again. It should just replace the thing to the right. So like if I'm, I have two windows split and on the left I have a link and I want to open in split view. It should just replace the one on the right and then add that to the back button. I should be able to go between it. And if I want to close the split view tab, the only way to close one window is to close it in the tab. And then for some reason it goes to the next tab as the window that's open or the tab that's open. So like if I'm in Google docs and have verge on the right of it and I'm reading and writing, if I want to close the verge, it should stay on the Google doc.

• 55:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Andrew Manganelli?

  For some reason it goes to, so here we go. I'm going to open this minimal phone spoiler for what we're talking about next. Open in split view. I don't care. That's probably Dia and Dia sucks. When I close, when I close this now, the YouTube one.

• 55:46David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 55:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, it did stand. I don't know. Before it wasn't. I don't know. Maybe that one's right.

• 55:51David Imel?

  Look.

• 55:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Firefox for life.

• 55:52David Imel?

  Firefox.

• 55:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Dia sucks.

• 55:54David Imel?

  If you want a direct line to Andrew.

• 55:57Andrew Manganelli?

  They follow me on Instagram.

• 55:59David Imel?

  You can have it.

• 55:59Andrew Manganelli?

  DM me.

• 56:00David Imel?

  Just email him. Um, they have emailed me before. I have done calls with them.

• 56:05Speaker 05

  Andrew, you don't have to live like this.

• 56:06Andrew Manganelli?

  I also probably won't take those calls because I can't tell you anything about this. I like split view, baby.

• 56:12David Imel?

  You just told them a bunch of things about it.

• 56:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh yeah, true.

• 56:14David Imel?

  You were just wrong about it.

• 56:15Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. They fixed it already. They're already listening to me.

• 56:18David Imel?

  They preemptively.

• 56:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Please go to the next thing.

• 56:20David Imel?

  All right. Um, Ellis will be excited about this.

• 56:23Speaker 04

  I saw this too.

• 56:24David Imel?

  So we talked briefly about the minimal phone two last week. If you didn't know what the minimal phone was, we have.

• 56:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Marquez's mic.

• 56:31David Imel?

  Yeah, Marquez is like, cut it, cut it. Uh, we did a video on the studio channel last, last year about minimal phones. Different kind of like phones that get you off of your phone. Ironic. The minimal phone one was an e Ink phone, or at least an e paper display phone. And it was very difficult to use on purpose. That was the whole point. Minimal is now back with the minimal phone two. We talked about briefly on the podcast last week because they showed a very, very brief teaser in which they just showed the outline of the device. Now.

• 57:04David Imel?

  Now they have a full YouTube trailer for the minimal phone two.

• 57:10David Imel?

  Looks pretty nice. You know, it's a, it's got a keyboard, uh, but instead of the e Ink or e paper display, it is now OLED. And the interesting thing about it is that the UX actually looks very nice. It has this really specific like deep blacks OLED plus orange plus white aesthetic. It's very minimal, you might say.

• 57:32David Imel?

  And yeah, the full announcement and pre-orders are going to go live on August 10th, which is next Monday on Kickstarter. Ellis, do you have anything to add about this?

• 57:43Speaker 05

  So much. I don't know. Um, no, because they didn't really announce that many like things about it.

• 57:49David Imel?

  Yeah. The UX looks pretty cool.

• 57:51Speaker 04

  I have, I have two thoughts exactly.

• 57:53Speaker 05

  Only two. I killed you, Mike. You can't.

• 57:58Speaker 05

  I don't know. There's so much speculation about what it's going to be able to do on Twitter. The thing that I'm kind of most interested in is one of the founders. So there's a notification light. They didn't mention this in the teaser. There's like a notification light, old school LED. And they showed a picture of it flashing blue. And one of the founders said, it will flash blue specifically when you have an iMessage come in. And it was not explained how, and it was not explained why. And I had my iMessage working on the first minimal phone. Fine. Like.

• 58:30Andrew Manganelli?

  How?

• 58:31Speaker 05

  With, uh, Marquez, I'm bringing your mic back.

• 58:36Speaker 05

  With, I forget which one it was with one of the, like I ran a server on my iMac at home. So, but I didn't need to sign in my iCloud like anywhere suspicious. Like it was just, it was.

• 58:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Sure.

• 58:47Speaker 05

  I was running a server. I was running a client on the phone.

• 58:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Super minimal.

• 58:53Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. You could say that. I, I think like the, the part I remember being the most annoying for minimal phone one was the hardware, software integration. Like there were so many things with like screen sensitivity and brightness that just like never really, I felt like didn't get worked out by the time I stopped using it. And this new one looks so chic and sleek, sleek. I meant sleek. It does not look chic. There's nothing chic about using this thing, but I'm so excited for this thing. I agree with you, David. I think the, the, the minimal launcher, the updated minimal launcher looks dope.

• 59:26David Imel?

  Looks nice. We're about to hit a in, interesting golden age of minimal devices. The clicks communicator is coming out fairly soon.

• 59:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Market share about to go point one, baby.

• 59:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 59:37Speaker 04

  About to hit, about to hit point zero one.

• 59:40Speaker 05

  It's going to be incredible.

• 59:41David Imel?

  It's going to be crazy.

• 59:41Speaker 04

  I can't wait for this whole segment to just be slow zooming in on Marquez's face.

• 59:46David Imel?

  You are the editor.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  Okay, look, look, look, look, okay. You, my, I have, I have two thoughts. They might surprise you. They're not going to.

• 59:56Andrew Manganelli?

  He's going to say it looks good.

• 59:57Speaker 04

  My first thought.

• 59:58David Imel?

  All right.

• 59:59Speaker 04

  This looks really cool. I am intrigued because the balance between like the purpose of a minimal phone and not having social media and doom scrolling, but still being able to do stuff. This, just from the teaser, seems to be able to do a lot more stuff. And actively avoid the downfalls of the stuff you're avoiding. So I'm curious to try it. But two, this worries me that they're doing a teaser video showing the chic new hardware and OLED display and all this price, and they haven't shown a price tag. And I am worried that this is going to be eight, nine thousand dollar phone.

• 1:00:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Can you really put a price on productivity?

• 1:00:45Speaker 04

  I think this might be a $900 phone.

• 1:00:48David Imel?

  Probably.

• 1:00:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Seven. I bet seven.

• 1:00:51Speaker 05

  $400.

• 1:00:52Speaker 04

  I'm guessing.

• 1:00:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Look at this compared to that one.

• 1:00:54Speaker 04

  This is a slow mo video.

• 1:00:57David Imel?

  49 is my guess.

• 1:00:58Speaker 04

  With these beautiful renders of this amazing OLED display. It's 49 seconds of amazing hardware and this.

• 1:01:07Speaker 05

  With almost no sound design.

• 1:01:08Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know. Why it makes me laugh that the minimal phone has so many buttons on it. I know it's a keyboard, but there's just something about like.

• 1:01:18Speaker 04

  Keyboard. The first minimal phone was $450. It's actually.

• 1:01:23Speaker 05

  And worth every penny.

• 1:01:24Speaker 04

  It was five.

• 1:01:24David Imel?

  I'm going to guess 650.

• 1:01:27Speaker 04

  And this one has an, that one had an e paper display.

• 1:01:30David Imel?

  Yeah, which is probably.

• 1:01:31Speaker 04

  No, OLED's, OLED's probably cheaper than e paper.

• 1:01:33David Imel?

  Not a nice OLED.

• 1:01:35Speaker 04

  E paper is not produced in mass enough to be cheap.

• 1:01:37Speaker 05

  You don't need a nice OLED.

• 1:01:39Speaker 04

  This is, this is a teaser implying a nice OLED.

• 1:01:41Andrew Manganelli?

  I would argue you need a nice OLED when you have so little on the screen because the blacks mean so much more to look like a nice screen.

• 1:01:49Speaker 04

  Bright OLED that actually is like black in the blacks with this UI.

• 1:01:53Andrew Manganelli?

  With the UI that we're looking at would be better with a.

• 1:01:57Speaker 04

  Like, I think they're playing this video, all these closeups of the switches, like they're playing this video implying a very premium experience and a very premium hardware and a very premium price tag is usually what comes with that. That's all I'm saying.

• 1:02:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Damn, rooting. This is going to be sick. Launching.

• 1:02:12Speaker 04

  Don't.

• 1:02:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Separate.

• 1:02:13Speaker 04

  Don't.

• 1:02:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Android launcher on this is going to be so nice.

• 1:02:16Speaker 04

  Don't buy an $800 phone.

• 1:02:19David Imel?

  You know how much it costs yet?

• 1:02:20Speaker 04

  You know what it costs.

• 1:02:21David Imel?

  All right. Let's place your bets. This is, is $800.

• 1:02:24Speaker 04

  649 on Kickstarter, early bird pricing.

• 1:02:27Andrew Manganelli?

  That doesn't count for anything.

• 1:02:28David Imel?

  I'm gonna say it's a Kickstarter, isn't it?

• 1:02:30Andrew Manganelli?

  That was like that Xiaomi phone that was like 249 to the first hundred people. And then it was like $400 after that.

• 1:02:37David Imel?

  It's going to be, okay. It's a Kickstarter. I joined the waitlist by the way, already earlier today. So we'll see.

• 1:02:43Speaker 05

  I had so many more thoughts about the video than I did about the phone from the, the video. And that might be because I'm on minimal phone Twitter.

• 1:02:49Speaker 04

  Does that worry you that there's so much in this video that's promising so many interesting little things?

• 1:02:54Speaker 05

  No, I, I had the opposite feeling. I was like. God, I really don't want to just like be a jerk because it is like a really high quality video, but the whole time I was watching it, I was like, there's no environmental sound and there's no sound effects for any of the motion. And so it feels like

• 1:03:11Andrew Manganelli?

  It's

• 1:03:12Speaker 05

  No, guys, that's not what that

• 1:03:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Duh.

• 1:03:15Speaker 05

  It feels, it felt to me like they had done like a blender animation and then just sort of like set, set music to it like

• 1:03:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Speaker 05

  Whereas like

• 1:03:24Andrew Manganelli?

  That's what

• 1:03:25Speaker 05

  That would have been like, but it would have been a much more impactful, communicative trailer had like all of these things made sounds and it had been in a space and like

• 1:03:34David Imel?

  They might not have physical units made yet. They definitely don't.

• 1:03:38Speaker 05

  So

• 1:03:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, that's almost more reasons to have sound.

• 1:03:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, go to, go to freesoundeffects.google.com.

• 1:03:44David Imel?

  When you said in a space, I thought you meant like a real

• 1:03:46Speaker 05

  No, like adding reverb and ambience and like, I was like,

• 1:03:50David Imel?

  So you're saying you want them to hire you to do

• 1:03:51Speaker 05

  I'm saying I will be the greatest, look, minimal phone company. I'll give you the buddy, the, the family, friends and family discount of a lifetime. If you, if you bring the, I think I might be the, the, either the, the best sound designer who's also a number one minimal phone fan, or the best minimal phone fan who happens to be a sound designer. I, I feel like I'm at the peak of those two. Watch someone come out

• 1:04:17Andrew Manganelli?

  You know, Hans Zimmer has a minimal phone, right?

• 1:04:20Speaker 05

  No way. He, he would have called me by now.

• 1:04:22David Imel?

  Now that you've seen this video and you're interested in the phone, can I get you to commit to a price tag that is too high to be reasonable?

• 1:04:30Speaker 05

  Like what would be too like, like at what point am I like this phone is too expensive?

• 1:04:34David Imel?

  Like now that you've seen this and it's a minimal phone and it's, it's, you, you see, you've seen what you've seen.

• 1:04:38Speaker 05

  I have one follow up question though. Does it assume that a lot of the integration features are fixed in this version? Or is it like, does it have the same bugs that were there when I stopped using them?

• 1:04:49David Imel?

  They fixed everything.

• 1:04:51Speaker 05

  They fixed everything?

• 1:04:52David Imel?

  Everything.

• 1:04:53Speaker 05

  I would pay.

• 1:04:56David Imel?

  Careful.

• 1:04:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:04:58David Imel?

  Careful, Alice, careful.

• 1:05:02Speaker 05

  I would pay, oh, I'm gonna make you mad, Marquez.

• 1:05:05David Imel?

  Oh, no.

• 1:05:06Speaker 05

  Assuming they fixed everything. Right? And like it, everything that's in this video just works.

• 1:05:12David Imel?

  The integrations, the software.

• 1:05:14Speaker 05

  I would pay the same price that I paid for my iPhone 17 Pro for this.

• 1:05:20David Imel?

  Now, that's Isn't that a thousand dollars? That's a bold thing.

• 1:05:23Speaker 05

  A thousand dollars.

• 1:05:24David Imel?

  Cause it's clearly less capable than the iPhone. You're serious?

• 1:05:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, I would pay a thousand, cause I want all these features in a phone. I want

• 1:05:31Andrew Manganelli?

  You have them. You have all of these.

• 1:05:33David Imel?

  You do. You have them.

• 1:05:33Andrew Manganelli?

  You have them. You just also have more of them.

• 1:05:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Speaker 05

  No, no, no. I want a physical keyboard. I, I want a headphone. Like I want all of these things. And, um,

• 1:05:43David Imel?

  But at the expensive

• 1:05:44Speaker 05

  I, I don't think that's that crazy.

• 1:05:46Andrew Manganelli?

  I have another question.

• 1:05:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Andrew Manganelli?

  You mentioned minimal phone Twitter before. How active is minimal phone Twitter?

• 1:05:51Speaker 05

  Pretty active.

• 1:05:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Sounds like it's not working very well.

• 1:05:55Speaker 05

  Why? It says 45, 45,000 views.

• 1:05:58David Imel?

  Cause they're on their computers too much.

• 1:05:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, cause they shouldn't be on Twitter.

• 1:06:01David Imel?

  No, there's no Twitter on the minimal phone. Yeah. The question, Alice, does this run other Android apps?

• 1:06:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07David Imel?

  So you could run Sunbird, which just relaunched, which allows you to have

• 1:06:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, it sounds like they're trying to do it by itself.

• 1:06:15Speaker 05

  Doing something, but they haven't said anything. They just said blue iMessage notification.

• 1:06:19David Imel?

  Wait, so you're saying that, oh, you're saying that minimal phone

• 1:06:23Speaker 05

  I believe it was

• 1:06:23David Imel?

  is offering iMessage support?

• 1:06:25Speaker 05

  They haven't said anything. I believe, I can't remember if it was Andre or the other founder, and I'm so sorry, I can't remember the other founder's name. He posted a screenshot of his like dev unit showing off the notification LED. Cause he was like, oh, people always say they want this back. We're gonna show it off. They, and he posted a Twitter picture of the LED being blue. And he said, it will be blue when you have iMessage notifications. He did not explain what that meant.

• 1:06:50David Imel?

  Yeah. I would be willing to bet that they're doing a collaboration with Sunbird.

• 1:06:53Speaker 05

  I really hope not.

• 1:06:54David Imel?

  Cause I remember Sunbird did a collaboration previously.

• 1:06:57Speaker 05

  I know, but Sunbird was a, a bad solution to that problem.

• 1:07:01David Imel?

  Was a broken, yeah, it was not, yeah.

• 1:07:03Speaker 05

  No, it's a solution that requires me giving possibly my most sensitive password to a random warehouse somewhere in, you know, like

• 1:07:11David Imel?

  Well, yeah.

• 1:07:14Andrew Manganelli?

  When you said iMessage, the first thing I thought was companion phone. Do you think there's a chance this is a companion phone?

• 1:07:23Speaker 05

  That changes everything. That literally changes

• 1:07:25Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, I can't imagine them straight up saying iMessage without it just being like, this is now the companion to your iPhone.

• 1:07:34Speaker 05

  Companion phone before, like when I was books palming, you know, may, is my main, but like, which has its own benefits, cause then you can still do Apple stuff.

• 1:07:44Andrew Manganelli?

  You know?

• 1:07:45Speaker 05

  Dude, if, also if the, if they never get, cause the, the NFC paying never worked in my minimal phone one, two, which produced some really hilarious moments of me trying to get on the subway and that dumb phones video out of an ID. If that's not fixed, that gets old really fast. Like the feeling of missing a train because you're just like tapping your phone over and over again.

• 1:08:08Andrew Manganelli?

  My problem with all of these is that they make amazing secondary devices. And I want one that's as good to be a primary device. So like to Ellis's point, I don't think spending a lot of money is crazy for one of these, but I would like it to be able to be my primary device and have everything fixed and work perfectly.

• 1:08:27David Imel?

  That would be nice.

• 1:08:28Andrew Manganelli?

  That would be the dream, but as of right now, everything we've tried, it seems to like flourish as a secondary device. And nothing screams minimal, like having to carry two phones.

• 1:08:38David Imel?

  Yeah. I think you're

• 1:08:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, it's because naming it, this is the same thing with the essential is when you name it so precisely, you're inviting people to dunk on you for essentially anything, pun intended.

• 1:08:52David Imel?

  The essential

• 1:08:53Speaker 05

  Come on, man. You could say that about everything. You could be like, like someone could be like, I'm trying to do like a minimal aesthetic. Check out my black sweater. It could be like, there's like 30,000 pieces of thread in that sweater, bro. Like real minimal. You know, it doesn't really

• 1:09:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, except the sweater's not called the minimal sweater. This is calling itself the minimal phone. I'm saying essential, if

• 1:09:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know if you're in the like phones Twitter with essential phone, but it was like, we're the essential phone. Oh, but you don't have a headphone jack. That's, it's just like, it got dunked on for any personal opinion that someone had that that phone didn't have that.

• 1:09:25Speaker 05

  We'll do a bonus episode. It'll be me and you, some leather armchairs, a nice fireplace. I'll be wearing a black turtleneck and some spectacles and it'll be called Ellis and Andrews Adventures Through the Semantics of Minimalism. And we'll just do like an art history survey. No, but maybe then you realize you are kind of, we'll do a survey through like art and philosophy history.

• 1:09:44David Imel?

  I would watch that.

• 1:09:46Speaker 05

  What minimalism actually is. We'll listen to some Philip Glass.

• 1:09:52Andrew Manganelli?

  I understand. It's just Andrew asleep on the chair with Ellis talking and

• 1:09:57David Imel?

  Some eyes. The description of this video, I mean, they use the word minimal, but I think it's, they're, they're trying to apply something else. That's just like no social media, no distractions. Cause the description is, this is the first official look at everything we've been building quietly. A premium, compact 5G phone with a full acuity keyboard, an OLED display, and an experience to help you stay focused. Brings thoughtful hardware and intentional software in one device built for communication, productivity, and getting things done. It's more than a minimal thing.

• 1:10:26Andrew Manganelli?

  It also, you missed, it says experience designed to help you stay focused without giving up the tools you need.

• 1:10:31David Imel?

  Yeah, pretty critically. So like Slack.

• 1:10:35Andrew Manganelli?

  But if it's just running Android, can I install it anyway?

• 1:10:38David Imel?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:10:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Or is it not running Android?

• 1:10:39David Imel?

  I think it's probably

• 1:10:43Speaker 05

  It's definitely gonna be running Android. Um, yeah. So there's one, I'm not gonna call it a review. One YouTuber got a prototype dev device and was allowed to play with it. He was not allowed to show it on camera, but he did, uh, no, no, no, no, no, no. He did show it on camera. There was, there was shots in on camera and it has the Android lock screen, like where you do the

• 1:11:04David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:06Speaker 05

  But I wouldn't be surprised if the minimal launcher, the launcher that it comes with, integrates with the hardware.

• 1:11:11David Imel?

  Everything is just Android at the end of the day, which is just Linux at the end of the day.

• 1:11:15Speaker 05

  On my minimal phone one, I installed a different launcher. I don't remember which one I had, but I was not using minimal launcher on them.

• 1:11:25Speaker 05

  On my first one. Okay. Do you want me to keep talking about minimal phone?

• 1:11:28David Imel?

  No, I remember when we said that this was gonna be a quick segment.

• 1:11:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, let's wait till we have more info. This whole episode is quick segments and then us yapping.

• 1:11:35David Imel?

  Yeah, the European Union section was long.

• 1:11:37Speaker 05

  Especially I want to keep talking about the minimal phone. I do unfortunately today have maximal trivia to ask you guys. Oh, don't look so disappointed. That was fine.

• 1:11:46David Imel?

  Maximal.

• 1:11:47Andrew Manganelli?

  All right. This is just how I look.

• 1:11:49Speaker 05

  You look

• 1:11:49Andrew Manganelli?

  No, that resting disappointment face. I liked it.

• 1:11:55Speaker 05

  Today's first trivia question is inspired by my best friend Ian, who was visiting me over the weekend. And you guys brought up a Ford truck called the Fathom, which we all know, you know, can mean like to conceive or to, to conceive of something far off. However, Fathom has a second definition. It's a unit of distance, the nautical.

• 1:12:17David Imel?

  Wait, is it Fathom or Fethen, Fethon?

• 1:12:20Andrew Manganelli?

  It was just spelled wrong in the doc.

• 1:12:21Speaker 05

  Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. Yeah. Wait, how is it actually spelled?

• 1:12:24David Imel?

  No, you're

• 1:12:24Andrew Manganelli?

  It just said N in the doc instead of N.

• 1:12:26Speaker 05

  Oh, okay. Okay. We're good.

• 1:12:27David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 05

  Trivia question stands.

• 1:12:29David Imel?

  Yep.

• 1:12:29Speaker 05

  And the reason this is inspired by my best friend Ian is because there was a few years where as a joke, he memorized, you guys ever heard of a gill? It's like another old timey.

• 1:12:37David Imel?

  Like the fish thing?

• 1:12:38Speaker 05

  No, there's a old timey unit of measurement called a gill. It's, it's a 32nd of a gallon that we don't use anymore. And, and my best friend Ian memorized that and would only give units of volume in gills for like years. It drove everyone insane. It was hilarious.

• 1:12:53David Imel?

  Very imperial to me.

• 1:12:54Speaker 05

  And so, because I know none of you know what a fathom is as a unit of measurement, I'm here to ask you, of these old timey units of nautical measurement, which one is the farthest? A, the fathom? B, the league? C, the shackle? Or D, the twas?

• 1:13:21David Imel?

  I have almost no idea. I have only one tiny little bit of information about one of them.

• 1:13:26Speaker 05

  Which is?

• 1:13:27David Imel?

  League. Which is the book called 40,000 Leagues Under the Sea.

• 1:13:30Speaker 05

  20,000.

• 1:13:31David Imel?

  20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.

• 1:13:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32David Imel?

  So a league can't be that big?

• 1:13:33Andrew Manganelli?

  That's what I was, that's, well, sea pretty deep, bro.

• 1:13:36David Imel?

  Literally my same mindset. I was like, if it's 20,000?

• 1:13:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:13:41David Imel?

  I don't think the earth's core could go that far.

• 1:13:43Speaker 05

  It's gotta be yards, right?

• 1:13:44David Imel?

  A league is probably a yard. Okay. So it's not

• 1:13:46Andrew Manganelli?

  This is not a science podcast.

• 1:13:47David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Andrew Manganelli?

  All right.

• 1:13:49David Imel?

  Go, think about it. We'll probably learn something at the end.

• 1:13:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Shout out Ian.

• 1:13:52David Imel?

  Answers at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

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• 1:15:24David Imel?

  All right, welcome back. We got some more news for you. This week, CMF released brand new headphones, or at least they announced them. They're called the CMF Clip Pro. It's their first open headphones. This is a growing category of headphones. Bose made some last year that were fairly popular.

• 1:15:41Speaker 04

  It's been a ton in the last like two, three years.

• 1:15:43David Imel?

  There's been a ton. There's been a ton. So they're earbuds that basically clip onto the side of your ear and they're open. So they don't go into your ear canal. They just shoot sound into your ear. This is for people that want to be able to just ambient play, play music and, you know, watch videos on their phones without bothering other people, but also hear other people talk to them. So there's not something like blocking the ear canal.

• 1:16:03Speaker 04

  Good for commuting.

• 1:16:04David Imel?

  Good for commuting.

• 1:16:05Speaker 04

  If you're biking or if you need to hear like the street around you, stuff like that.

• 1:16:09David Imel?

  Yeah, so you don't get hit by a car.

• 1:16:10Speaker 04

  Transparency.

• 1:16:11David Imel?

  Uh, so CMF is announcing their new line of it called the CMF Clip Pro. They put out some teasers for it on Twitter.

• 1:16:19Speaker 04

  They sure did.

• 1:16:20David Imel?

  Um, they sure did. Because-

• 1:16:23Speaker 04

  And everyone's talking about the headphones, right?

• 1:16:25David Imel?

  Everyone's not talking about the headphones. So they put out these teasers on Twitter. They are, you know, teaser photos. Um, you know, the classic nothing CMF sort of like British minimalism style that they've always kind of done with the like weird haircuts and like bright colored, uh-

• 1:16:42Speaker 04

  Blank canvas.

• 1:16:43David Imel?

  Blank canvases and stuff like that. But you'll notice in some of these photos that there's a little watermark in the bottom corner that says, "contains AI-generated imagery." Now-

• 1:16:53Speaker 04

  Sure does.

• 1:16:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait a minute, it says way more than that, sorry. Have you read the whole thing? It says-

• 1:17:00Speaker 04

  "contains AI-generated imagery. Any resemblance to a real person is purely coincidental."

• 1:17:05David Imel?

  Yes, coincidental. Yeah, okay.

• 1:17:06Andrew Manganelli?

  What does that mean?

• 1:17:07David Imel?

  So, there's context here, there's context. It's very hard to see and find and read this text. They're clearly trying to hide it. My first question was, if they're trying to hide this so hard, why would they even include it? Turns out that just a few days ago, the European Union passed an AI Act, uh, which requires AI providers to embed digital watermarks or technical, uh, markers into generated files to make automated detection possible.

• 1:17:34David Imel?

  Um, so now they have to put this labeling in there.

• 1:17:37Speaker 04

  This is more than just like a digital footprint.

• 1:17:39David Imel?

  Sorry, companies must visibly mark synthetic or altered images, audio and videos so that users know when the media is artificial. That's the one-

• 1:17:47Andrew Manganelli?

  That users know immediately that the media is-

• 1:17:49David Imel?

  Immediately is what it says, which is clearly not immediately. I don't think that the EU would like this personally. But yeah, so people are freaking out because it says, "contains AI-generated people," basically. And there's a couple ads, there's a video, there's a video of a girl that's like wearing them and dancing. And at the beginning of the video, it says like, "this is not a real person." Like, and it's generated, it's an AI-generated person wearing them. So that's weird and bad and I don't know, I mean-

• 1:18:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, this also says, "it contains AI-generated imagery. Any resemblance to a real person is purely coincidental."

• 1:18:25David Imel?

  Which means this is not a real, these are not real people, which is just, we clearly don't love this already, um, because of that. Like they're not using real models and that's kind of eh. But what's fun, what's funnier about this like ad campaign is they just messed up in so many ways. Another way that they have messed up, um, they published this photo of a guy that's like floating with the CMF-

• 1:18:49Speaker 04

  In his ear.

• 1:18:50David Imel?

  Clip Pro in his ear. But you should click the link.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:18:53David Imel?

  Um, click this link, look at the photos, right? So he's floating with it in his ear, but if you zoom in on the photo, you can see that this is like-

• 1:19:02Andrew Manganelli?

  It's every Amazon like white labeled earphone product you've ever seen where it's just like-

• 1:19:08David Imel?

  It's just, literally they like cut out the background and they just slapped it on top of a pre-existing photo. Um, it's really bad. They, they quickly took down that one. Uh, but people are getting very angry at them for using AI people. I think fairly rightly so in this circumstance. I also think this law went into effect literally like two days ago. So we're going to start seeing this happen with a lot of companies.

• 1:19:34Speaker 04

  This is so straight, yeah. The, the thing that hits is like how they're putting it as like light gray text on a lighter gray background. So it's clearly they're, they're trying to make it basically not part of the image, which I get that it's an ad and you don't want it to be distracting, but they, it does come across as hiding it. And then, yeah, the videos, it's, you kind of just have to assume that they're thinking people who buy these don't care about that and-

• 1:20:01David Imel?

  And yeah, are fine with them, yeah, just not using real models or photography.

• 1:20:05Andrew Manganelli?

  My issue with this is, is like, one, they're hiding it. I don't get what they mean by any resemblance to people is purely coincidental.

• 1:20:15David Imel?

  I think what they are saying is that these are not real models. These are AI-generated people. And if-

• 1:20:21Speaker 04

  If it happens to look like-

• 1:20:23David Imel?

  Yeah, if it gets alleged that we are trying to like use a real person's, uh, likeness in this, it's purely coincidental.

• 1:20:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, they're saying like, when they say people, they mean like specific person. What do you think you're saying? Okay. Cause the prompt clearly had to have written person. I mean, the other, the video is like a girl waking up, a guy climbing, which you can tell is AI when he falls because it's so bad. A guy walking around and like chilling on the couch, like-

• 1:20:51David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:52Andrew Manganelli?

  The, the other thing is, is this video, other than probably the rig on LCAP, which is him climbing, is like, this is not a crazy thing to have to shoot.

• 1:21:03David Imel?

  No.

• 1:21:03Andrew Manganelli?

  And you're a, I know CMF is a budget company, but they're a big enough company to be able to shoot their own commercial.

• 1:21:09David Imel?

  Yeah. I have what may be considered a nuanced take about this, I'm not sure, but-

• 1:21:15Andrew Manganelli?

  Light them up, boys.

• 1:21:17Speaker 05

  No, no, no, no, David, no!

• 1:21:22David Imel?

  Well, that's a long clip.

• 1:21:23Speaker 04

  Do you usually just add that?

• 1:21:26Speaker 07

  We're usually laughing over that.

• 1:21:27David Imel?

  Oh, okay, okay. So, okay. It is, it is annoying and ironic that everyone in the industry is, is telling companies, "you have to use AI, you have to adopt this for your stock to go up." Right? Like the only way for people to get funding for their stock to go up is for them to say, "we are adopting AI, we're using this in more places." At the same time, now they have to disclose it, so people hate them for it. So you kind of, you kind of put in between these, this rock and this hard place. I think they should just go ahead and use real people anyway, for many, many, many, many reasons.

• 1:22:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Super different. I think to use AI is like for, like this is like-

• 1:22:08David Imel?

  Competitive advantage.

• 1:22:09Andrew Manganelli?

  But also like as tools or you need to have like AI features on things or you need to be using it to-

• 1:22:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:15Andrew Manganelli?

  Study different, whatever, not to like make the advertising and, and like-

• 1:22:21David Imel?

  I agree.

• 1:22:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Destroy the personal-

• 1:22:23Speaker 07

  I think marketing is a big part of companies' budgets and if they can save a dime by using AI people, they will 100% do so and tell their shareholders, "oh, look, we use AI to save 3%."

• 1:22:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Like that is the same thing.

• 1:22:35David Imel?

  That is.

• 1:22:36Speaker 07

  The one marketing is the thing that makes you look good. And it makes you look like.

• 1:22:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, so they're stuck in a rock and a hard place. That's the market. Figure it out. Hire real people.

• 1:22:44David Imel?

  It is, it is weird. We talked before about how companies that don't use AI and use real people will point it out. And it's sort of become like a luxury thing like Porsche uses real animators. You know what I mean?

• 1:22:56Speaker 04

  We had to do that for the, the shrinking down video for the three nanometer video where we were like, hey, I'm shrinking down to the size of this single transistor. I know that you're gonna think that this is AI watching this, so I just want to make it clear. A lot of human hours went into making this. And it came across as like both a disclaimer and like a statement of like almost pride. Like, hey, just so you know.

• 1:23:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:18Speaker 04

  A lot of hard work here.

• 1:23:19David Imel?

  Yeah. And I know that nothing saved a lot of money by using AI and not using, you know, full shoots and stuff. However, they also hired Charlie XCX as their like a brand campaign person.

• 1:23:29Speaker 04

  Damn.

• 1:23:30David Imel?

  They're throwing a lot of money at another thing. So.

• 1:23:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, marketing also often feels like optional extra spend. Like, nobody enjoys marketing in general. We're getting marketed to. It's just a fact of life and we're like, all right, companies are going to market to us. So when they also cheap out on marketing to us and kind of hide that it's AI and do all these other things, it doesn't feel good. It feels actually slightly worse than regular marketing.

• 1:23:55David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Speaker 04

  So maybe they, they could actually take advantage of this by getting a little positive sentiment once in a while and using real models and real people.

• 1:24:02David Imel?

  Totally. I think it's kind of crazy, actually, now that this EU law is in place. This is, this is going to feel like the new via Twitter for iPhone. Because every company that has AI in their marketing now has to legally, in the, that markets in the EU, has to legally label it clearly and immediately. Which means we're going to see a lot of public backlash from a lot of companies.

• 1:24:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, and the thing that's weird about there is how much of it helped by AI? Like, like if I were scrolling on CMF's thing here and if the, you know, some of the close up product, you know, renders use some AI to like make them move around.

• 1:24:41David Imel?

  Right.

• 1:24:41Andrew Manganelli?

  To me, that's a little different than full blown creating new people.

• 1:24:46Speaker 04

  I think that's because it wasn't a human doing it before, right? Like, if, if you're doing the models or whatever.

• 1:24:54Andrew Manganelli?

  But it feels like, yeah.

• 1:24:54Speaker 04

  Right, like the, the products, I wasn't going to see a real product anyway. Like, when you watch, spoiler alert, when you watch those beautiful AI video or beautiful Apple videos of like products that are not out yet, that's a 3D render most of the time with some practical effects. There's a lot of work that goes into making those. And to substitute with AI would probably feel bad, but not as bad as these are not real humans.

• 1:25:16David Imel?

  Right.

• 1:25:17Speaker 04

  Videos, that feels slightly worse.

• 1:25:18David Imel?

  I wonder if they had to use that full label because the mandatory labeling through the EU says, companies must visibly mark synthetic or altered images. So if you use Photoshop and you use generative fill, this is the same problem that we had at the very beginning of Instagram, like trying to label. And it said, made with AI, even if you just did like generative fill on a, some dust on the photo. You know what I mean? So do you have to label AI even if you just use like generative fill in a photo? Like, that's.

• 1:25:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, the line is in a different place.

• 1:25:53David Imel?

  We need to know where that line is.

• 1:25:54Speaker 07

  You should have to label it if you are creating new objects or people.

• 1:25:58David Imel?

  I agree with that.

• 1:25:59Speaker 04

  I think that's.

• 1:25:59David Imel?

  Technically, it's still fuzzy.

• 1:26:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I would specifically say content aware fill is that, that gray area where it's like, am I just trying to take the sign out of like the background of this? Did it make a new tree when I did that? Is this creating a new object now?

• 1:26:15Speaker 07

  I would say you're.

• 1:26:16Andrew Manganelli?

  That's like a tough thing.

• 1:26:17Speaker 07

  You're creating a new object, sure, but if you're adjusting fixing, that's not creating new things. That's removing things.

• 1:26:23David Imel?

  Sometimes it is.

• 1:26:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, if it creates new things to remove a thing, yeah. That's the gray area to me.

• 1:26:28David Imel?

  Creating a new thing. Damn, we're getting.

• 1:26:31Speaker 04

  It is really, it is really a gray area, I think. It's really gray. Like content aware fill, if you're getting rid of the dust on a camera lens, you're technically creating new glass underneath it. I think we all accept that that's not creating a new thing. But when you move the line, you're like, oh, I got rid of like a, a rock in the background and it put extra grass back there. Okay, that's a little bit further. Oh, I used AI to get rid of a flag that was in the background of the photo. We don't want to have a flag there, but then it created a whole new tree in the background.

• 1:26:55David Imel?

  Yes.

• 1:26:56Speaker 04

  All right, it's still fine, it's just a tree. And then you just keep pushing the line further and further and it's all gray. It's all gray.

• 1:27:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Companies want to push the lines to all of us on different things like marketing with AI is going to turn into something where you're going to have to listen to your audience and they're going to have to determine collectively what the line is. And you're going to have to play that game and CMF just played that game. Found out and they crossed the line, which is 100% of everything.

• 1:27:23David Imel?

  For creating like fake people, that's way over the line, obviously. But I definitely foresee a lot of asterisks is about to happen where a lot of companies literally do whatever the EU says is barely over the line, like you said, Adam, replacing a rock with some grass. Right? And then they have to mandatorily add the, add the little marker. And then people are going to think that they, that the whole thing is generated or something like that.

• 1:27:49Speaker 07

  Well, is this just going to desensitize everyone to that asterisk?

• 1:27:53David Imel?

  Probably.

• 1:27:53Speaker 07

  Because every marketing thing will have it now.

• 1:27:55David Imel?

  That's a possible future.

• 1:27:56Speaker 04

  Probably.

• 1:27:57David Imel?

  And we're in the like forefront of it, so only a few brands are doing it and getting it seen. And so it feels like it's rare, but it may desensitize us.

• 1:28:04Speaker 04

  And then it'll eventually take away, take it away once it's, once it's normalized.

• 1:28:08David Imel?

  I just imagine that because this rule is now in effect in the EU, the next couple of months are going to be kind of crazy on social media platforms. Because we're going to see these tags all over a ton of marketing and people are going to be very angry.

• 1:28:21Speaker 04

  And it's going to hit very, it's going to hit slightly differently with each company.

• 1:28:24David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Speaker 04

  Like, imagine Google doing it, you're like, eh, I could see that.

• 1:28:27David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:27Speaker 04

  And then imagine like Apple doing it, you're like, hmm, that's weird.

• 1:28:30David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:31Speaker 04

  Like, there's, there's so many different.

• 1:28:32Speaker 07

  If I use.

• 1:28:33Speaker 04

  Different every time.

• 1:28:33Speaker 07

  If I use magic eraser in photo, in photos in the EU and then I share that image, will it have this watermark?

• 1:28:41Speaker 04

  It should.

• 1:28:41David Imel?

  It, yeah.

• 1:28:42Speaker 04

  Because Google, remember, Google's doing their watermarking. I don't know if it's compatible.

• 1:28:47David Imel?

  That's a hidden watermark.

• 1:28:48Speaker 04

  Right. Oh, sorry, not a watermark. It's like, it's buried in the file.

• 1:28:51David Imel?

  But Adam, it's companies, companies must.

• 1:28:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, yeah, you're not making money.

• 1:28:56David Imel?

  You're not a company.

• 1:28:57Speaker 07

  Companies are people.

• 1:28:58David Imel?

  Right, that's, that's.

• 1:28:59Andrew Manganelli?

  You know what? There's one thing to learn from this episode is companies are not people.

• 1:29:03David Imel?

  They're, they're not, companies are not people in the EU, though. But they are in the United States and we don't require the rule. Uh, okay, speaking of a company that's trying to pretend like it's a person, OpenAI. Uh, we talked briefly last week about this lawsuit, this crazy lawsuit that's happening where Apple is suing OpenAI for alleged trade secret stealing. And all these like LMAO texts that they have sent, they'd be like, ha, ha, I could still have access to the secret information inside of Apple, even though I now open, work at OpenAI. So now OpenAI published this blog post, which is kind of nuts. Um, they're bringing it to the court of public opinion. The blog post is called, "Apple is Getting This Wrong." It's not a super long blog post.

• 1:29:46David Imel?

  It's basically just talking about the lawsuit and how they think that, um, Apple is wrong for bringing it. But they do share a bunch of iMessage conversations and a bunch of email history to show that both, uh, Apple says that it contacted OpenAI in February and got no response, but now admits that its lawyer contacted the wrong person and that the person at the company confused two last names. So they emailed the wrong person because they had similar last names. The Apple claims it had a conversation with OpenAI's general counsel, but now Apple admits that never happened. That Apple's lawyer says that it told OpenAI it was resolving any issues, then went silent for five months until they randomly got hit with the lawsuit. This is all alleged by OpenAI.

• 1:30:30David Imel?

  Um, we are not saying any of this is true. Uh, yeah, so they published the iMessages and the emails. And this is really weird. I don't think that usually companies come out and make blog posts about active litigation. In fact, the number one thing you're supposed to not do is come out and just make a bunch of blog posts about active litigation. So it's very irregular that this is happening.

• 1:30:52Speaker 04

  It makes them seem very confident.

• 1:30:54David Imel?

  They are, they seem very confident.

• 1:30:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I read to you my favorite message or part of this very, very long? I was like, they only alleged the like couple of quick things. This thread is.

• 1:31:06David Imel?

  There's a lot of redacted.

• 1:31:07Andrew Manganelli?

  There's a lot of stuff. But yeah, my favorite part is, "Redacted Apple information, will redacted Apple information prototype build, but too late for redacted Apple information?" With the reply, "Awesome, I was thinking redacted Apple information for redacted Apple information and redacted Apple information for redacted Apple information. But since redacted Apple information was pushed back, then it should get redacted Apple information also. I think we are aligned." Smiley face.

• 1:31:31Speaker 07

  Same, bro. How this is supposed to.

• 1:31:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Crazy about this?

• 1:31:34Speaker 07

  This is not unheard of for them to be publishing, or not unheard of, but like you can publish these transcripts, right? We normally see that from court cases and it'll just be text. And that's, that says this like redacted, "Apple employee number one, whatever, blah, blah." Someone had to Photoshop into the form of iMessage to make it look like iMessage for the people reading it.

• 1:31:55David Imel?

  That's a really good. No, no, Adam, they had ChatGPT Photoshop.

• 1:31:58Speaker 07

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:31:59David Imel?

  Also, where's the indicator that says, uh, that says AI-generated image?

• 1:32:04Speaker 04

  I think it's Photoshop.

• 1:32:05Speaker 07

  US.

• 1:32:06Andrew Manganelli?

  It does look like a screenshot, even though it's one really, really long one.

• 1:32:10David Imel?

  Heavily edited.

• 1:32:11Speaker 07

  And to make it blue bubbles, even though it's clearly an iPhone, Android interaction because of the reaction. It goes.

• 1:32:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Liked Apple redacted.

• 1:32:20David Imel?

  Yeah, why did they make it? They made it blue. Yeah, so they didn't even do it right. They tried to make it look like an iMessage conversation and they didn't even.

• 1:32:26Andrew Manganelli?

  They did get the text correct. Actually, now that I'm looking at it, this isn't even as.

• 1:32:30David Imel?

  It's not the right font.

• 1:32:31Andrew Manganelli?

  No, but it's, I can select the text, which means this isn't even a photo, like a screenshot.

• 1:32:35Speaker 04

  These aren't screenshots, that's what I'm saying, they rebuilt this.

• 1:32:37Andrew Manganelli?

  They built this inside the webpage.

• 1:32:41David Imel?

  Yeah, oh, inside of ChatGPT. That's weird. All right, well.

• 1:32:45Andrew Manganelli?

  This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

• 1:32:46David Imel?

  I'm not a lawyer. I would not recommend doing this.

• 1:32:52Speaker 04

  This isn't legal advice, but like, I wouldn't do this.

• 1:32:56David Imel?

  I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I personally would not do this.

• 1:33:00Speaker 07

  New soundbite just dropped.

• 1:33:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I do love how it's like, how the, the messages are liked. This response, like all of the, the reactions are text messages.

• 1:33:11David Imel?

  Yeah. Crazy that one of these people is using an Android phone when they're all Apple employees.

• 1:33:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, no, the thing is, is one isn't an Apple employee anymore, right?

• 1:33:19David Imel?

  Well.

• 1:33:20Andrew Manganelli?

  It's an OpenAI employee.

• 1:33:21David Imel?

  But it doesn't seem often that an OpenAI employee would be, spend 24 years at Apple and then as soon as they get to OpenAI, switch to an Android phone. Anyway, all right. Quick little hit, um, just wanted to mention, Fitbit data can now sync to Apple Health. Let's clap.

• 1:33:41Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:33:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 1:33:44David Imel?

  We've waited so long.

• 1:33:45Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:46Speaker 04

  I don't know. I was told to clap. I clap.

• 1:33:49David Imel?

  All right. I'm hyped about this because I'm still using the Fitbit Air.

• 1:33:53Speaker 04

  And an iPhone.

• 1:33:54David Imel?

  Still enjoying it and an iPhone. And previously, you had to use a Bridge app to bridge your Fitbit Health, Google Health information over to Apple Health. Now it's native. So that's good because I don't have my iPhone in my pocket all the time. So I don't always have my step information or my heart rate variability or stuff like that. And I don't like wearing an Apple Watch. So now my Fitbit can just give all this information to my Apple Health and I can still use Apple Health. I like Google Health. I actually like it quite a bit, even on iOS. And I've kind of come around to the dumb Gemini previews, but.

• 1:34:30Speaker 04

  Can I ask, what do you like about Apple Health?

• 1:34:32David Imel?

  What do I like about Apple Health?

• 1:34:33Speaker 04

  Because I found that once I couldn't use Apple Health, I didn't miss it at all.

• 1:34:37David Imel?

  One thing that's useful about Apple Health.

• 1:34:39Andrew Manganelli?

  You can copy and paste universally?

• 1:34:42David Imel?

  One thing that's useful about Apple Health is that a lot of apps use Apple Health as a data source.

• 1:34:48Speaker 04

  Source?

• 1:34:48David Imel?

  Yes.

• 1:34:49Speaker 04

  That means it's getting it from your phone or from whatever's dumping into Apple Health?

• 1:34:52David Imel?

  Like other apps that I use will pull information from Apple Health.

• 1:34:56Speaker 04

  Like what?

• 1:34:57David Imel?

  Like a macro factor.

• 1:34:59Andrew Manganelli?

  If I use a Garmin and I go on a run, it all saves to Apple Health. And then other things can pull that information like Strava from Apple Health.

• 1:35:08David Imel?

  Yeah, it's sort of a repository. So like I have a GE Smart Scale. The GE Smart Scale syncs to Apple Health and then my macro factor pulls my weight from Apple Health.

• 1:35:19Speaker 04

  Got it. So you're, so this is kind of the copy and paste thing. This is an ecosystem thing still.

• 1:35:24David Imel?

  Sort of. Yeah.

• 1:35:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:35:26David Imel?

  It's like Apple.

• 1:35:26Andrew Manganelli?

  They got Apple. I think, I don't know.

• 1:35:29David Imel?

  Apple Health is like the heart of my health data.

• 1:35:33Speaker 04

  It's your data collecting hub.

• 1:35:34David Imel?

  Yeah. And then all the other apps are different organs that pull from it. Yeah.

• 1:35:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, that's fair enough.

• 1:35:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I guess I don't have anything pulling from Apple Health, so I wasn't really missing anything.

• 1:35:44David Imel?

  Yeah, I have like three apps that pull from Apple.

• 1:35:45Andrew Manganelli?

  I was gonna say, this has already been super long, but I would love to hear your thoughts on not having an Apple Watch anymore. Because you've been like the Apple Watch guy for years, since I started here.

• 1:35:57David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:57Andrew Manganelli?

  And now the past couple of weeks, you just have not had an Apple Watch.

• 1:36:00David Imel?

  I've had, I, there was a lot of thought about like, what do I use an Apple Watch for? What will I miss if I don't have it anymore? And it was, it was really kind of a short list of things that I use Apple Watch for. It's telling the time. I do still miss that. But then there is the notifications on the wrist. I don't miss that. There is the closing the rings every day, which it's like a fun thing to track, but it's not the most precise. And I honestly stopped missing that. And then it's all the, all the other measurements and data collection and information that gets aggregated that I can then learn from health-wise, which is literally replaced with the other wearable, which is in this case a Whoop. We'll talk about the other one I'm wearing in a second. So I, yeah, there's like smaller, all small, all other small things.

• 1:36:45Andrew Manganelli?

  Do you miss group challenges?

• 1:36:48David Imel?

  We, they never, yeah.

• 1:36:51David Imel?

  I gave up on them trying to add group challenges. I figured they'll never do it.

• 1:36:53Speaker 04

  Why didn't they do that?

• 1:36:55David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:56Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll, I'll say, and this kind of ruins my whole shtick. Since wearing a watch, I don't miss notifications on my watch that much. I'll still scream from the top.

• 1:37:07Speaker 04

  Andrew, no, no.

• 1:37:07Andrew Manganelli?

  It still should be a thing that they offer because all of the functionality is there. But yeah, I don't miss notifications that much.

• 1:37:14David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Your watch usually, I'm also just confused because it's always on your right hand and now your arms are on, bands are on your left hand. And I'm used to watching your watch just blow up the entire podcast.

• 1:37:24David Imel?

  It would light up. I definitely got very used to it, just like constantly buzzing and lighting up and.

• 1:37:29Andrew Manganelli?

  That's probably why you hate notifications so much because it's just everything. It's 24/7.

• 1:37:34Speaker 04

  Yeah. You still get phantom buzzes? Like does your right wrist just buzz randomly?

• 1:37:37David Imel?

  At first I did, but not anymore. Yeah, there was actually a solid week and a half. And I, I almost would make fun of people for that. I'd be like, what do you mean phantom buzzes? And then I would feel one and check it. I'd be like, oh my God, it is real. So I'm glad I got over that, but yeah. But okay, speaking of other wearables, so David, you're wearing the Fitbit.

• 1:37:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm wearing the Fitbit.

• 1:37:55David Imel?

  I've been wearing the Whoop. Andrew, which, what was on your wrist a second ago? What was that thing? What is that? I haven't seen that before.

• 1:38:01Andrew Manganelli?

  The Garmin Circa.

• 1:38:02David Imel?

  Ah.

• 1:38:03Andrew Manganelli?

  It's here.

• 1:38:04David Imel?

  So you're how many days in?

• 1:38:06Andrew Manganelli?

  24 hours.

• 1:38:07David Imel?

  24 hours in. Any thoughts?

• 1:38:09Andrew Manganelli?

  I have my extremely brief impressions because there's only 24 hours and I haven't even done a workout with it. But I'll try and quickly go through this because this is a long episode. Okay, so it's big.

• 1:38:23David Imel?

  It is.

• 1:38:23Andrew Manganelli?

  It's thick. It's, I want to see it next to your Whoop because now it actually doesn't look that big compared to the Whoop.

• 1:38:29David Imel?

  It's just.

• 1:38:29Andrew Manganelli?

  I thought the Whoop was a little slimmer profile.

• 1:38:33Speaker 04

  Dimensionally, it's a little bit taller than the Whoop off the wrist.

• 1:38:37Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't have a big wrist, but I'm using the large, extra large band and it fits fine. But like, this thing is wide. Like if you look at it directly at my wrist, I look like Mega Man pointing my, or.

• 1:38:51Speaker 04

  Mega Man.

• 1:38:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Like it's hanging off almost the sides of my wrists.

• 1:38:55David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Which I think is too big. I don't love this. I immediately want the Fitbit Air after this, if I want to keep it. So I don't love that, especially because it's a screenless tracker. This is supposed to feel like something that just melts in. My Casio watch right now is a smaller, slimmer profile than my activity tracker.

• 1:39:14David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:16Andrew Manganelli?

  So the auto sleep tracking, now this has only been one day. Bang on. Like perfect.

• 1:39:22David Imel?

  Day one.

• 1:39:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Day one. So what I would say, so I set my sleep schedule like you do in the Garmin app. I put 10:30 to 6:30. I laid down in my bed around like 10:20 and I remember scrolling on my phone for a while and thinking to myself, I need to see how well this works. 10:43, I put my phone down. Says I went to bed at 10:45. At 11:45, Owen woke up. So I got up, helped for a minute, went to the bathroom, went back to sleep. It nailed a six minute wake time at 11:45.

• 1:39:53David Imel?

  You went to sleep that fast?

• 1:39:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I get, I mean, six minutes. I just woke up, put his binky back in, went to the bathroom, went back to sleep. I was pretty tired. Then I, my alarm woke me up at 6:30. I was like, wow, that's really good. That's all automatic. Because like, it could have just said, oh, you're laying down and you set your sleep time to 10:30, therefore you are sleeping.

• 1:40:13David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:13Andrew Manganelli?

  But it didn't actually clock it till presumably right when I fell asleep. It also recorded a nap that I took when I fell asleep on the couch watching a movie with Lane right after dinner last night.

• 1:40:25David Imel?

  It was a nap.

• 1:40:25Andrew Manganelli?

  For like 15 minutes and it is in my daily report that there was a rest time and counted it towards my body battery. So spot on with that. Now, the other thing to sleeping comes with the button, which is to stop the alarm that's going off on your wrist. So it's 6:30, buzz, buzz, buzz. I press it. I'm hanging out. I'm like pretty lazy not getting out of bed. 10 minutes later, buzz, buzz, buzz. I thought I stopped this. Oh, I must have snoozed it, but in a panic, just press it again. Now I'm awake and I'm like, this thing's gonna go off again. I need to figure out how to do it. The app is not very good. Every Garmin user knows their app is information dense, but pretty poorly laid out when you want to find things.

• 1:41:07Andrew Manganelli?

  So I actually Googled how to turn it off, which is kind of hard. So you have to hold it apparently. So 10 minutes later, it's like 6:50, I hold it and I turn off my alarm. Cool, we're good. Halfway through my commute this morning with my music playing on the car, my wrist starts beeping and just over my speaker just goes, 60 minutes. And I'm like, what? And apparently I had started an activity and that was, Garmin does like, if you have it turned on, which I guess by default it does, after an hour, it alerts to you that you've been working out for an hour. So it had connected to my Bluetooth speakers through my phone to tell me that it was, I guess in your headphones it would tell you.

• 1:41:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:46Andrew Manganelli?

  And it told me that it was 60 minutes. So I'd been running a 60 minute activity because I thought I had turned the alarm off. All you need to do on that is the little light on the side should either blink or stay a color when an activity is active. I think that's so simple and so easy. If you want to torch me on the notification thing. I think just an active activity should be. Anyways, last night I was in my backyard for like 20 minutes, just putting on my disc golf basket and it auto added that as an activity. I thought that was pretty cool. It wasn't an intense one.

• 1:42:17David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Very much, but it did put it in there. I have my default to just do activity. So it doesn't try and assume what it is and I can just edit it because I mostly only care about heart rate and time. So that was pretty good. However, DC Rainmaker did a blog, a really, really good blog comparing everything. And he found that the Circa, one of its biggest issues was not auto detecting during warmups when Fitbit Air and/or Whoop was doing it correctly. And because the Circa, to save battery life, is tracking heart rate at a much less frequent time outside of an active activity, he can't then go and adjust the times because there's not enough information there.

• 1:42:59Andrew Manganelli?

  So with the Fitbit Air or the Whoop, if it did happen to miss 10 minutes or, you know, sometimes if you have a cooldown period in between and all stuff, he can just adjust all of those things and gather all the information that it missed where this just doesn't have heart rate data.

• 1:43:15David Imel?

  Reminds me of the Pixel Watch.

• 1:43:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:18Speaker 04

  Pixel Watch, Pixel Watch would sample like every second or something.

• 1:43:22Andrew Manganelli?

  I think that's, I think this is doing, I want to say, I want to say every minute or something. It's very infrequent in comparison to when it is tracking.

• 1:43:30Speaker 04

  Gotcha.

• 1:43:30Andrew Manganelli?

  So in my eyes, you know, 24 hours with reading a lot of different stuff, the size of this. The band is awesome. The colors are great. I think it's really comfortable. I just think it's too big. This feels to me like Garmin was creating this to be a Whoop competitor. Not knowing Google and then the Fitbit Air came out first because if this comes out without the Fitbit Air, it looks so much better.

• 1:43:55Speaker 04

  That's a great point.

• 1:43:56Andrew Manganelli?

  When the Fitbit Air is out, even though it has all their software issues and bad whatever like.

• 1:44:01Speaker 04

  It's gotten better.

• 1:44:01Andrew Manganelli?

  I, I've heard it's gotten better and even, I mean, DC Raymaker has said even a lot of the Garmin things in the couple of weeks it's been out. They've been taking feedback and trying to fix some things. It seems like him and Desfit are like.

• 1:44:12Speaker 04

  I meant the Fitbit Air's gotten better.

• 1:44:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, yeah, but so is the Garmin as well. But like, this to me, especially being twice the price. Feel like the Fitbit Air has better tracking in terms of the heart rate stuff in that. It's lighter, it's smaller, it's less of a nuisance. It's just like overall the better product and it's half the price.

• 1:44:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:44:34Andrew Manganelli?

  So this feels like a really bad buy when that's out. I do like that they're integrating the button into this. I think they could do some stuff with the lights. I think if Garmin could somehow put standalone GPS in this, it would feel like the Garmin product in this new screenless fitness wearable category.

• 1:44:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:44:53Andrew Manganelli?

  And I think, I think this is a wait for Gen two and hope they improve.

• 1:44:57Speaker 04

  No, GPS was kind of a shocker to me on this product, especially since it's Garmin.

• 1:45:01David Imel?

  Yeah, I, to me, I don't know how, I don't know how difficult it would have been to add GPS and still get good battery life.

• 1:45:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I see your Whoop probably fast white?

• 1:45:09Speaker 04

  Very, very, very.

• 1:45:09David Imel?

  Probably very. To me, this, this to me feels like the slightly less elegant version of the Fitbit Air. Like, I like that it has a button. That's nice. But like the way the bands attach and like having to remove them and reattach them. I like the band, but I don't know that I would do it like this. It is a little thicker, a little taller, a little bit. The app is a little bit worse, like the data is a little bit worse. It's just like, like you said, Andrew, slightly less elegant version of the Fitbit Air. But I kind of do wish the Fitbit Air had a button.

• 1:45:40Andrew Manganelli?

  I wish the Fitbit Air had a button. I think the button is a good thing. I'll say this Whoop, it's just as tall as the Whoop, which I thought that, but the Whoop is less wide, therefore feels like it's sitting on top of your wrist, not kind of tower or bending over your wrist. And I do think that feels better. I still don't like the Whoop mechanism, but.

• 1:45:58Speaker 04

  Funny that you guys are still arguing over those devices when this thing is so.

• 1:46:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Try this next to your.

• 1:46:04Speaker 04

  Next to it?

• 1:46:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:05Speaker 07

  I still think we are forgetting the most important part, which is that this does not have a subscription.

• 1:46:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, I think that's like part of the, I think this, if Whoop is its only competitor at $200 no subscription with all this, it looks like an incredible.

• 1:46:17Speaker 04

  Which is why the Fitbit Air is incredible.

• 1:46:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes. The problem is, is the Fitbit Air beat them to the punch at a better price point. Also not a subscription.

• 1:46:26David Imel?

  I mean, it has.

• 1:46:27Andrew Manganelli?

  It has a subscription.

• 1:46:27Speaker 04

  You really don't.

• 1:46:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, so does, no, no, the Garmin has a subscription too.

• 1:46:30David Imel?

  Yeah, but it's for like nutrition and stuff. It's not like for actual, any other data.

• 1:46:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, that's fine.

• 1:46:34Speaker 07

  Same thing as the Google one. That's what I'm saying.

• 1:46:36Andrew Manganelli?

  That's so, yeah, that's what I'm, that's why comparing to, all of its subscriptions are similar to the Google subscriptions. Therefore, the, the Fitbit Air just beats it to everything.

• 1:46:44Speaker 07

  The Garmin subscription is, the Garmin subscription for all of their products. It's not just for this one device. Like if you have a watch, you can get the same subscription.

• 1:46:52Speaker 04

  Are you supposed to wear this to sleep?

• 1:46:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes, I wore it to sleep.

• 1:46:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, I feel like the thickness of this would be very uncomfortable.

• 1:46:57Andrew Manganelli?

  It didn't bother me sleeping. I just, like, I don't know. The fact that it just should be like a bracelet feels like it should be way smaller.

• 1:47:05Speaker 04

  It's a really big puck compared to the Fitbit Air.

• 1:47:07David Imel?

  Yeah, I think the Fitbit Air nailed the form factor.

• 1:47:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, really.

• 1:47:11Andrew Manganelli?

  So it's, yeah, it's like not even close.

• 1:47:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:47:14David Imel?

  Fitbit really, the, the Fitbit needs to make material that doesn't look like ass after like a few weeks though.

• 1:47:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I want to combine, I want to combine all three of these. I want the form factor of the Fitbit Air with the band of the, of the Garmin, but with the connection method of the Fitbit Air. So I wish I could just do the Velcro thing.

• 1:47:34David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:35Speaker 04

  But this material, this band is nice.

• 1:47:36Andrew Manganelli?

  This band.

• 1:47:37David Imel?

  The material is nice.

• 1:47:37Andrew Manganelli?

  And the colors are.

• 1:47:38Speaker 04

  And then give me the battery life of the Whoop, give me the data collection of the Whoop, but the UI of the Fitbit.

• 1:47:46David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:47Speaker 04

  Like mixing them all together.

• 1:47:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is funny because I think just Fitbit needs to work on their UI because the data collection is all the same. It's just how you throw it out and be, are you body battery? Are you strain? Are you, Google's, it's just like a score, right?

• 1:48:02David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah, they all have a slightly different score.

• 1:48:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:48:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:05David Imel?

  Yeah, I will say, um, so you're supposed to be able to wash these bands and I have, I've washed it twice. And it has also taken out the, the blue color, like the blue has washed out of the band. And I know that they never said that these bands were particularly luxe, but um, it's pretty sad that I washed it like twice by hand, by just scrubbing it a little bit and the blue pigment has like come out, you know?

• 1:48:29Speaker 04

  Damn.

• 1:48:30David Imel?

  I'm really waiting for some much nicer bands to hit the market, which they will.

• 1:48:35Speaker 04

  They will indeed.

• 1:48:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Patience.

• 1:48:36David Imel?

  Um, well, before we get off of the health tracker thing and take it to break, I just wanted to point out, there's a new Casio Ringwatch, so.

• 1:48:45Andrew Manganelli?

  Ringwatch?

• 1:48:46David Imel?

  Yeah. So Alex has the Casio Ringwatch.

• 1:48:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Casio Ring? This is so funny because I saw.

• 1:48:52David Imel?

  Or watch ring, I guess. It's a watch ring.

• 1:48:54Andrew Manganelli?

  That's the confusing part is I saw this on a Verge headline, I think, but didn't read that it was a ring. And I was like, this is such a weird, chunky watch.

• 1:49:02Speaker 04

  You watch people.

• 1:49:03David Imel?

  So it's a, it's a watch.

• 1:49:04Andrew Manganelli?

  This is ring people.

• 1:49:05David Imel?

  It's a ring that's, that is a watch. It's like a Casio watch that you wear on your finger.

• 1:49:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Is it a joke, right?

• 1:49:11David Imel?

  So, no, they sell it.

• 1:49:13Andrew Manganelli?

  I wish it was.

• 1:49:13David Imel?

  And it's.

• 1:49:14Andrew Manganelli?

  This is a real.

• 1:49:15David Imel?

  It's amazing. It's so cute.

• 1:49:16Andrew Manganelli?

  A hundred.

• 1:49:17David Imel?

  No, hey, hey, hey, it's cute. It's adorable.

• 1:49:20Speaker 04

  Am I being pranked right now?

• 1:49:21David Imel?

  Um, Alex has one. Alex has one. You can check it out later.

• 1:49:23Andrew Manganelli?

  No.

• 1:49:24David Imel?

  But they just announced that they are now making one. It's China only right now, which is really sad. But they're now making one that is a full-on like health tracker device. So it's like an Oura Ring competitor, but it's a watch that you wear on your finger.

• 1:49:35Speaker 04

  This is not a joke. Are you serious?

• 1:49:37Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't, why didn't, none of this is fake.

• 1:49:38David Imel?

  None of this is fake.

• 1:49:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Why didn't they just make a smart watch? Like if any company could just put a smart watch tracker under like a G-Shock with.

• 1:49:48David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Would make so much sense.

• 1:49:50David Imel?

  This is very, it is crazy to me that Casio has not made a smart watch that just looks like a regular Casio.

• 1:49:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:57David Imel?

  Because a bunch of companies are making third-party attachments for it that allow it to be a smart watch.

• 1:50:00Speaker 04

  I can't believe this is real.

• 1:50:02David Imel?

  Look how sweet it looks. It's so adorable.

• 1:50:04Speaker 04

  In the pictures, they have like their hands all spread out like this. So you can tell it's not.

• 1:50:09David Imel?

  And there's like, it's mini versions of their watches, but you're wearing them on your finger.

• 1:50:12Speaker 07

  Casio owns G-Shock, which makes smart watches.

• 1:50:15Speaker 04

  I don't know if I can.

• 1:50:16Andrew Manganelli?

  But G-Shock does have a smart watch?

• 1:50:17David Imel?

  I didn't even know that.

• 1:50:18Speaker 04

  Just to be perfectly clear for audio listeners, picture a G-Shock watch.

• 1:50:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:23Speaker 04

  Around one of your fingers.

• 1:50:25David Imel?

  That's literally what it is.

• 1:50:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, and scaled correctly.

• 1:50:27David Imel?

  Not just G-Shocks, but like all the Casio watches they basically made this ring versions of.

• 1:50:33Speaker 04

  Am I, am I going to get roasted for this?

• 1:50:34David Imel?

  They all work.

• 1:50:35Speaker 04

  This is like the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

• 1:50:36Speaker 07

  No, I also hate this. This is insane.

• 1:50:38Speaker 04

  When it came out, I was like, this is stupid, but to each their own.

• 1:50:41David Imel?

  You guys hate whimsy.

• 1:50:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Buying Adam one.

• 1:50:42David Imel?

  You hate whimsy.

• 1:50:43Andrew Manganelli?

  You're gonna hurt your, your fingers.

• 1:50:46David Imel?

  Why? It's just a ring.

• 1:50:47Speaker 04

  It's, yeah, but you, you remember how the Oura Ring was like, people thought it was really chunky and they finally made a thinner, smaller one? They were like, all right, I'll finally wear a ring. This is the opposite direction.

• 1:50:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, but you can't tell time on an Oura Ring.

• 1:50:58Speaker 04

  Well, then don't get a ring.

• 1:51:00David Imel?

  You don't need to wear a watch. You don't need to wear a watch on your wrist if you can just wear it on your finger.

• 1:51:05Speaker 04

  This is, are people, and this is one of the pictures, are people doing this? Are they wearing the watch and the ring at the same time? Is this not ridiculous?

• 1:51:13David Imel?

  Casio Max.

• 1:51:14Speaker 04

  Am I, am I going insane?

• 1:51:15David Imel?

  That's amazing. I love that.

• 1:51:16Speaker 04

  This is crazy.

• 1:51:17David Imel?

  It's, uh, it's amazing.

• 1:51:19Speaker 04

  What time is it? Hold on, let me just.

• 1:51:21Speaker 07

  Yep, it's still 10:45.

• 1:51:23David Imel?

  You can't wear gloves with this on.

• 1:51:25Speaker 04

  You can't wear gloves with any ring on.

• 1:51:27David Imel?

  Handshake.

• 1:51:27Andrew Manganelli?

  No, your glove just has a little hole in it.

• 1:51:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:31Speaker 04

  You can't make a fist anymore.

• 1:51:33David Imel?

  With any ring.

• 1:51:35Speaker 04

  The battery life is one day.

• 1:51:37Speaker 07

  The original G-Shock DW5600 is only a hundred bucks. Just get, get that.

• 1:51:42David Imel?

  I bet the battery life for this is like 20 years.

• 1:51:45Speaker 04

  This is the tiniest thing I've ever seen.

• 1:51:46David Imel?

  Yeah, but a regular Casio watch lasts 10 years and it uses a coin battery.

• 1:51:51Speaker 07

  If I weren't married, I would propose to Claire with this.

• 1:51:54Speaker 04

  Coin battery in this?

• 1:51:55David Imel?

  It's probably the size of a coin, of a coin battery. It's probably about the same size. I'm not sure.

• 1:52:01Speaker 04

  If I ever meet anyone wearing one of these.

• 1:52:03David Imel?

  Alex has one.

• 1:52:04Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm imagining Marquez walking up to a guy on the bus who.

• 1:52:08David Imel?

  Yeah, actually.

• 1:52:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Is holding their light phone flip with their Casio Ring on the, holding the flip and Marquez just launches himself out.

• 1:52:16David Imel?

  Dripping.

• 1:52:17Speaker 04

  Just the opposite.

• 1:52:18David Imel?

  Just dripping sweat.

• 1:52:19Speaker 04

  To me, you know, to each their own.

• 1:52:21Speaker 07

  Alex says he does not have one.

• 1:52:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 1:52:23Speaker 07

  Alex, get on in here.

• 1:52:24Andrew Manganelli?

  I like the lore of Alex.

• 1:52:25David Imel?

  You literally had one last week.

• 1:52:26Speaker 07

  What are you talking about?

• 1:52:27David Imel?

  You've never worn this.

• 1:52:28Speaker 07

  I don't have a Ringwatch.

• 1:52:29David Imel?

  Ringwatch, right? Okay, good.

• 1:52:31Andrew Manganelli?

  No, he has the cigarette ring.

• 1:52:34David Imel?

  Are you being so for real right now?

• 1:52:36Speaker 07

  I'm being so, I've talked about that. I think they're cool, but no, I never bought one.

• 1:52:39Speaker 04

  I saw you wear it last week.

• 1:52:41Speaker 07

  What are you talking?

• 1:52:43David Imel?

  Is this a dream?

• 1:52:44Speaker 07

  Did you hallucinate me wearing a Ringwatch?

• 1:52:46David Imel?

  I remember walking up to you and you're, I was like, you have one of the Casio Ringwatches? And you're like, yeah, I got it.

• 1:52:51Speaker 07

  No. Was it rich? I said I have a G-Shock.

• 1:52:55David Imel?

  Nah.

• 1:52:55Speaker 07

  You sure it's wasn't Dream Beans?

• 1:52:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Dream Beans made it up.

• 1:52:58David Imel?

  Maybe it was Dream Beans.

• 1:53:00Speaker 07

  You know, I heard my name.

• 1:53:02David Imel?

  Alex, I like that.

• 1:53:03Speaker 07

  There's a certain, there's a certain philosophical hilarity to if you make, if you make a, a ring, excuse me, if you take a, make a watch shaped like a ring, it becomes a combination of two things. It's a Ringwatch. But if you make a ring in the shape and size of a watch, it just becomes a bracelet. It just sort of translates its properties. And I say that because I want to stop talking about this.

• 1:53:23David Imel?

  Yeah, we gotta be done. This is like a long episode. This is a long episode.

• 1:53:27Speaker 07

  All right, trivia, dude.

• 1:53:29Speaker 04

  I'm doing a hall of shame at the end of the year of my least favorite product.

• 1:53:32Andrew Manganelli?

  We do, we are working on waveform awards for the end of the year. So that might, yeah.

• 1:53:37Speaker 04

  Little teaser for December. Okay. We spoke about BMW earlier, way earlier, like three hours ago. But which automobile manufacturer operated the car sharing service Reach Now back in 2016? I don't know. You don't know?

• 1:53:56David Imel?

  I don't know.

• 1:53:56Speaker 04

  Take a guess.

• 1:53:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Casio.

• 1:54:00David Imel?

  You'll have to think on that.

• 1:54:01Speaker 04

  We'll find out.

• 1:54:02David Imel?

  Answer's at the end. Be right back one more time.

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

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• 1:55:09Speaker 07

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• 1:55:34Andrew Manganelli?

  All right, welcome back. Gonna go fast. Skip ahead 35 minutes to get to the end of this. Just kidding, we only have 20 minutes left on the card. Okay. I just want to say, Keychron, the keyboard company, kinda cooking lately. They, for whatever reason, their Twitter game, they're just tweeting every day and they're releasing stuff and they're showing off prototypes of things. And something about it just looks like Keychron's on the up and up. They just released a new, really lightweight gaming mouse with a magnetic swappable battery, which is like something I've seen in a couple random Chinese mouse companies, but like, this is really cool.

• 1:56:14David Imel?

  Is this the full mouse?

• 1:56:15Andrew Manganelli?

  No. David's looking at a prototype render that they're working on that's a lot of like mice enthusiasts have built things like this, where it's a fingertip grip only mouse, which is essentially only the front half of the mouse. It is like 30 grams or supposed to be 30 grams. That has the magnetic swappable battery as well. They're posting that and they're like posting all these things about like, what are some things we should change? They have something they just released called the NAPE Pro, which is this really sick mini wireless trackball device.

• 1:56:46David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:46Andrew Manganelli?

  That even Ellis came to me and was like, dude, did you see this thing Keychron's doing? It has six customizable buttons. It fits kind of right at the bottom of your keyboard by the spacebar to now be a trackball with all these different buttons. I think it's sweet.

• 1:56:59David Imel?

  Sweet concept, terrible name.

• 1:57:01Andrew Manganelli?

  It is a weird name.

• 1:57:02David Imel?

  NAPE is a weird name.

• 1:57:03Speaker 05

  Do you know what your NAPE is? It's like the back of your neck.

• 1:57:06Andrew Manganelli?

  It is the back of your neck. Those undernose for some reason.

• 1:57:09Speaker 04

  But it's the NAPE Pro.

• 1:57:10David Imel?

  Yeah, true.

• 1:57:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Back of your neck.

• 1:57:13David Imel?

  Professional.

• 1:57:15Andrew Manganelli?

  Keychron actually responded to random Frank P tweeting that like, it seems like Keychron's just kinda going wild lately. And they responded by, appreciate it. We made some big changes internally this year. I'm the CEO and I've been personally leading our new product development. We also rebuilt our product team. You're only seeing the beginning. We've got a lot more innovative products on the way. So it seems like the CEO may have just taken over Twitter and it's just like, he's tweeting anything from

• 1:57:39David Imel?

  Or the social media manager become the CEO.

• 1:57:41Andrew Manganelli?

  That also could be true. But they're just, they're showing off new products. They're showing off designs of products they haven't even thought about making yet or like to ask for different opinions. Building in public, yeah. They, they actually, to go back on something we talked about earlier, when they released that fingertip mouse, they got the made with AI tag and then everyone was talking about it to where they were like, we don't know why. Found out that it was through the render like coloring they used AI to color it. And then they were like, I guess this is what does it. We'll like not do that in the future. They're just being like super open and it feels like Keychron's done the one plus route of be like, we're getting in, we're getting mech keyboards to be this actual accessible

• 1:58:26Andrew Manganelli?

  thing. Now we got built big and we're just building a billion things to sell you that feels kind of cheap. And now we're going into a little more of the like enthusiast space again and getting community feedback. And I mean, I still haven't tried any of these products, so I don't know if they actually are that good, but they're building some cool stuff. And the NAPE Pro looks awesome.

• 1:58:46David Imel?

  It's called a

• 1:58:46Andrew Manganelli?

  I feel like Ellis could have 20 of those on his desk and just flinging balls all over.

• 1:58:52Speaker 05

  Leave it.

• 1:58:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I feel like Ellis could have like 10 of the NAPE Pros and just a million customizable buttons and trackballs and everything.

• 1:59:02David Imel?

  It doesn't have a knob though, which is what he loves, so.

• 1:59:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, yeah, it's around the ball.

• 1:59:07David Imel?

  There you go. It has everything.

• 1:59:08Andrew Manganelli?

  They're also working on a Thunderbolt dock.

• 1:59:10David Imel?

  Yeah, I saw that.

• 1:59:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Why not? They're just like becoming the peripheral.

• 1:59:13David Imel?

  The CEO is literally responding to every single comment on Twitter.

• 1:59:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. He's just locked in.

• 1:59:19David Imel?

  How do I feel about CEOs on Twitter?

• 1:59:20Andrew Manganelli?

  I was just That's a fair point. It's, it's, it leads down the wrong path, so chill.

• 1:59:25David Imel?

  But at least, at least he's posting just under the Keychron account and none under his like personal one, trying to have a personality.

• 1:59:31Andrew Manganelli?

  One of the things was him just like, it's him with his little four-button macro pad that he put a mouse sensor in and he can use it as a mouse while having four customizable macro pad buttons on top. And he was like, if 500 people can, well, do you know what a macro pad is?

• 1:59:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, I had multiple, but like if you put a sensor on the bottom, it just becomes a mouse.

• 1:59:50Andrew Manganelli?

  I guess.

• 1:59:51Speaker 05

  With buttons, like a Logitech mouse that you can have different macros on the top.

• 1:59:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, but their mouse shape, this is macro pad shape. It just like seems like they're cooking up fun things there. And I think he wrote like, if 500 people all make like, preorder this, I'll make it or something like that. So, yeah.

• 2:00:07Speaker 05

  Pop quiz, what was their first keyboard?

• 2:00:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Keychron cooking Q.

• 2:00:10Speaker 05

  Nope.

• 2:00:10Andrew Manganelli?

  No, K1.

• 2:00:11David Imel?

  There it is. Yeah. It was lovely. Like someone commented, how much are you planning on charging for this? The market really needs a fingertip mouse that's cheaper, can also compare to G-bowls and specs. And he just responded, how much would you suggest? Price and spec.

• 2:00:25Andrew Manganelli?

  And he's obviously not gonna like do all of the things, but yeah, it just

• 2:00:29David Imel?

  Tell me how much to charge for this product. That's kinda crazy.

• 2:00:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Then he just one day, anyone else obsessed with carbon fiber keyboard cases lately? And then just is like him flinging around a random carbon fiber keyboard case that he has.

• 2:00:41David Imel?

  This is kind of amazing. My new Twitter king.

• 2:00:45Andrew Manganelli?

  David, relax.

• 2:00:46David Imel?

  Sorry.

• 2:00:49Andrew Manganelli?

  But yeah, we should get to trivia.

• 2:00:50David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:51Speaker 05

  Marquez, it's kinda crazy that you'd ask us about

• 2:00:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Look how cool this is. It's a mouse. I know, but like

• 2:00:59David Imel?

  Is it a ring?

• 2:01:00Andrew Manganelli?

  It doesn't look like a mouse. It can be a mouse.

• 2:01:02David Imel?

  Is it a ring? Is it a

• 2:01:03Speaker 05

  And it's just showing us like things that progressively look less and less like mice and being like, you can control your computer cursor with this. That weird like two-button finger pad you showed us earlier.

• 2:01:13David Imel?

  This can of Chief Forrest is also a mouse.

• 2:01:16Speaker 05

  You can, yeah.

• 2:01:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, wait, actually.

• 2:01:17Speaker 04

  Is this

• 2:01:18Andrew Manganelli?

  There's this other thingies.

• 2:01:20Speaker 05

  Because I was saying, you know, you're quite the person to ask us about having your company's CEO on Twitter, because my company's CEO is on Twitter.

• 2:01:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:29Speaker 05

  And YouTube.

• 2:01:30David Imel?

  That's true. And he is trying to have a personality on Twitter, too.

• 2:01:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, Marquez, relax.

• 2:01:37Andrew Manganelli?

  What video do you guys think I should make?

• 2:01:40Speaker 05

  Dude, guys, we can't talk about YouTube or tech. We have to talk about old timey nautical measurements. Which of the following is the farthest unit of distance? A, the fathom. B, the league. C, the shackle. Or D, the twas.

• 2:01:57David Imel?

  Can't even spell the last one.

• 2:02:04Speaker 04

  Twas.

• 2:02:06Speaker 05

  I really wanted to make sure I pronounced it right.

• 2:02:08David Imel?

  Twas. Sound like a smoker.

• 2:02:13Speaker 04

  You gotta leave that.

• 2:02:13Speaker 05

  Twas. I literally can't take it out.

• 2:02:16David Imel?

  Or just French, one of the two.

• 2:02:17Speaker 05

  All right, which one is the farthest? Flip them and read and all two of you wrote?

• 2:02:25David Imel?

  Fathom.

• 2:02:27Speaker 05

  A fathom.

• 2:02:29Andrew Manganelli?

  I wrote shackle.

• 2:02:32David Imel?

  Damn.

• 2:02:33Speaker 04

  So

• 2:02:33David Imel?

  Can't be league.

• 2:02:34Speaker 05

  A fathom is three feet.

• 2:02:37David Imel?

  Really? That's just a meter.

• 2:02:38Speaker 05

  A shackle is 15 fathoms.

• 2:02:41Andrew Manganelli?

  A yard is three feet.

• 2:02:42Speaker 05

  Hey, let me finish.

• 2:02:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Sorry.

• 2:02:43Speaker 05

  A shackle is 15 fathoms. And a league, different countries have different exact measurements for what a league is.

• 2:02:51David Imel?

  That makes no sense.

• 2:02:52Speaker 05

  It is between one and three miles, depending on what country you are in.

• 2:02:57Andrew Manganelli?

  It's a league?

• 2:02:58Speaker 05

  That is a league.

• 2:02:59David Imel?

  One to three miles is an enormous range.

• 2:03:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, so what's a twas?

• 2:03:02Speaker 05

  A twas is six feet.

• 2:03:04David Imel?

  Oh, the entire point of a standard is that it's the same.

• 2:03:09Speaker 05

  Well, this is, these are old timey measurements. Like we don't use leagues anymore. And also earlier, when all three of you were like, I know it's not league because they were 20,000 them under the sea. That is a common misconception. The Jules Verne novel, 20,000 Leagues Under Discreet, describes the vessel traveling 20,000 leagues horizontally while they happen to be under the sea. They are not actually 20,000 leagues under the sea.

• 2:03:32David Imel?

  That's a bad name then.

• 2:03:33Speaker 05

  Correct. That is way deeper than the ocean goes.

• 2:03:37David Imel?

  That's what I thought.

• 2:03:38Speaker 05

  You thought, you thought right.

• 2:03:39Speaker 04

  You can't do 20,000 miles under the sea.

• 2:03:42Speaker 05

  You can't. It would just be about twice the circumference of the earth.

• 2:03:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:48Speaker 04

  I guess you can.

• 2:03:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Also, this was Rich talking about standards as Americans. All right, so.

• 2:03:55David Imel?

  A.

• 2:03:56Speaker 05

  I have to tell this story real quick. Mom, I love you. I'm so sorry. But I was talking to my mom once and I just, I described some, some unit of distance and like something and my mom goes, I'm sorry, like how many football fields is that? Like, because everything in America is like measured in football fields. And I thought about my like brilliant academic mother and I was like, mom, you've never been to a football game in your life. Like you don't even know how far a football And she was like, you're right. I have no idea how far a football field is.

• 2:04:25David Imel?

  She has an idea in her head.

• 2:04:26Speaker 05

  She couldn't tell me how many feet or yards it was.

• 2:04:28Andrew Manganelli?

  I couldn't either. I think it's actually more confusing because are you including end zones or not?

• 2:04:33Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 2:04:34Speaker 05

  Adam, here's your trivia question.

• 2:04:35David Imel?

  But we watched this.

• 2:04:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, before you do that real quick, can I read? I forgot. This is the funniest tweet the Keychron guy did.

• 2:04:40Speaker 04

  Do you have?

• 2:04:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, yeah, we're good. It'll be really fast.

• 2:04:42Speaker 04

  20 minutes.

• 2:04:43Andrew Manganelli?

  He tweeted a picture of a mouse with a bunch of macro buttons and he wrote, eight side buttons, 88 grains, latest mag op switches, blah, blah, blah. More buttons than a typical Moba mouse, but lighter and simpler than a traditional MMO mouse. Would you be interested? Someone tweeted, MMO gamers have waited years for this mouse. And he responded, you're kidding. We don't actually have that much confidence in this mouse, actually.

• 2:05:03David Imel?

  What?

• 2:05:05David Imel?

  That's weird. It's a multiplayer online battle arena. Was that, was that bait?

• 2:05:12Speaker 05

  It wasn't bait. I'd never heard of a Moba.

• 2:05:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, we still got BMW. Which automobile manufacturer operated the car sharing service Reach Now back in 2016? That's the wrong button. I'm gonna wait and then press it again.

• 2:05:30David Imel?

  Reach Now?

• 2:05:32Speaker 07

  Reach Now?

• 2:05:35Speaker 07

  Do you guys want a hint?

• 2:05:36David Imel?

  I have no clue.

• 2:05:37Speaker 07

  Don't overthink it. That's my hint.

• 2:05:41David Imel?

  Is there a company, is there a car company called Reach?

• 2:05:45Speaker 07

  Maybe. Maybe it's in another language, maybe it's not, who knows?

• 2:05:50David Imel?

  Stellantis?

• 2:05:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Halo Reach.

• 2:05:53David Imel?

  It could be Stellantis.

• 2:05:56David Imel?

  What?

• 2:05:59David Imel?

  Did you not say? You didn't say non-US company.

• 2:06:02Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:06:02Andrew Manganelli?

  He didn't say any region for the company.

• 2:06:04Speaker 05

  I was just laughing because he was like, maybe it's not in English and you it's Stellantis.

• 2:06:08Speaker 07

  Flip him and read, what do you got? Who wrote what? I can't see.

• 2:06:14David Imel?

  Oh no.

• 2:06:16Speaker 07

  Who wants to go first?

• 2:06:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Marquez.

• 2:06:17Speaker 07

  Marquez, what'd you say?

• 2:06:23David Imel?

  I thought Reach Now was like RN was like something with.

• 2:06:28Speaker 07

  I'm gonna stop you right there, you're incorrect.

• 2:06:30Andrew Manganelli?

  It was, he wrote Renault.

• 2:06:31David Imel?

  Renault, Renault.

• 2:06:33Speaker 07

  Uh, Andrew, what'd you write?

• 2:06:34Andrew Manganelli?

  BMW.

• 2:06:35Speaker 07

  David, what'd you write?

• 2:06:35David Imel?

  BMW.

• 2:06:36Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 2:06:37David Imel?

  Yeah, that's, yeah. Um, yeah.

• 2:06:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Sorry, Marquez.

• 2:06:41Speaker 05

  I'll give you, I, I wrote like 50 bonus questions because it was such a long episode. I'll give you a bonus question real quick, just.

• 2:06:47David Imel?

  Do we have time for this?

• 2:06:48Speaker 05

  You've got 30 seconds to answer and if you can't come up with anything, that's on you.

• 2:06:51Speaker 07

  I'm going to try some hard.

• 2:06:53Speaker 05

  Guys, name a single phone that you can buy in the United States in 2026 with a physical QWERTY keyboard that is not the minimal phone O1 or the clicks communicator.

• 2:07:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Buy from where?

• 2:07:06Speaker 05

  The store.

• 2:07:08David Imel?

  Physical keyboard?

• 2:07:09Speaker 05

  Physical QWERTY keyboard, it has to have buttons, it has to be on sale, new, from the factory in 2026. You can use it on US carriers.

• 2:07:17David Imel?

  What was it called?

• 2:07:20David Imel?

  Like the exact model name?

• 2:07:22Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:07:25Speaker 05

  If you get the iteration wrong, like if you say the blank, blank, three instead of the blank, blank, two, I'm okay with that.

• 2:07:32David Imel?

  I didn't.

• 2:07:33Speaker 05

  That's okay.

• 2:07:34David Imel?

  I don't got it.

• 2:07:35Speaker 05

  Nothing, you all put nothing. The correct answer was the Unihertz Titan 2. All right, no more points awarded. Thank you all for listening to the longest episode of the waveform podcast ever.

• 2:07:46David Imel?

  Is it really?

• 2:07:47Speaker 05

  I don't know. Might be.

• 2:07:49David Imel?

  Close.

• 2:07:50Speaker 05

  Uh, uh, what do you, what else do we say? Make sure you watch and subscribe.

• 2:07:55David Imel?

  Yeah, if you made it this far, I really appreciate you. Uh, the European Union is going to mandate that we have shorter episodes for competition purposes.

• 2:08:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Unless you all comment right now.

• 2:08:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:08:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Save us.

• 2:08:07Speaker 05

  For interoperability, we actually have to tell you guys to subscribe to the Vergecast.

• 2:08:17Speaker 07

  And that's where we cut, that's where it ends, that's where it ends. If you made it this far, you got the joke, so there it is. Thanks for watching.

• 2:08:26David Imel?

  That's so **** funny.

• 2:08:28Andrew Manganelli?

  I thought you were gonna say like on Spotify and Apple Plus.

• 2:08:33Speaker 05

  Waveform is produced by Ellis, Adam Alina and Ellis Rovin. Uh, we're part of the, we're not part of the Vox Media.

• 2:08:38David Imel?

  No, we are, we are, we are.

• 2:08:39Speaker 05

  We are still part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Uh, intro music is by Vane Sill. We'll see you next Friday.

• 2:08:45David Imel?

  Bingo, let's go.

• 2:08:46Speaker 05

  Normal episode.

• 2:08:47David Imel?

  Yeah. Press the button. We'll be in a very different place.

• 2:09:01David Imel?

  Yeah, we might be.

• 2:09:02Andrew Manganelli?

  You have to leave that part in, just like Marquez whispering, we'll be in a very different place.

• 2:09:06Speaker 01

  Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Your job, your kids, where it's going. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way. Because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claud.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claud.ai/spotify.

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing in wearable. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, can tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. The features described are for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. iPhone 11 or later required. Based on Apple conducted study of heart rate accuracy, August 2026. Visit apple.com slash apple watch series 12.