Why you should try improv comedy (w/ Rick Andrews)

What do radio personality Ira Glass, New York City mayor Zohran Mamdani, and your host Chris Duffy have in common? They all have practiced an unexpected skill that makes them more human—improv comedy. And they learned it from master improv teacher Rick Andrews. Rick joins Chris to discuss the life lessons they learn from giving up control and practicing how to “yes an” in conversations. They also modeled improv games such as “Alibi,” “7 Things,” “Fortunately and Unfortunately,” and more, so you can sprinkle some improvisational silliness to build better communication and trust in your work and personal life. Featured guest Follow Rick Andrews on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/rkandrews/ and at https://www.rickandrewsimprov.com/ Connect with the team Follow Chris on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en and at chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/Buy Chris’ book, Humor Me https://t.ted.com/ZGuYfcL Watch How to Be a Better Human videos on YouTube at TEDAudioCollective https://www.youtube.com/TEDAudioCollectiveFollow TED on X https://x.com/TEDTalks, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ted, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TED, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/ted-conferences/, and TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@tedtoksFor the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Chris Duffy?

  This is How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and one of my favorite things in the entire world is improv comedy. I know that is very much not cool and hip to say that one of my favorite things in the entire universe is adults playing make-believe together, but it is true. I absolutely love it. And I think that one of the things that I love the most about it, whether it's watching it or performing it myself, is that good improv skills, in my opinion, are the same as good people's skills. How do you listen really closely? How do you make other people look good? How do you deal with unexpected situations? How do you remember something that is fun and playful and bring it back later on? They're all skills that are kind of basic to improv, but they're also skills

• 0:45Chris Duffy?

  that make people the kinds of people that I want to spend time with, the kinds of people that I want to be around. And today's guest, Rick Andrews, is an incredible improviser. He is very much someone who I want to spend time with. But more than just being a great performer, Rick is an amazing teacher. He has been teaching for years. He's taught so, so, so many people. And what he's learned is that we can all get better at playing, at improvising, and making our lives funnier, more exciting, and more of an all-around good time. We're going to talk so much more about how to do that. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a few words from our sponsors.

• 1:31Chris Duffy?

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• 2:17Speaker 01

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• 3:32Chris Duffy?

  And we are back. Today, we are talking about improv with Rick Andrews.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Hi, my name is Rick Andrews. I teach and perform improvisation.

• 3:41Chris Duffy?

  So Rick, you've been performing and teaching for a really long time, and I have been a fan of your work for a really long time. From the first time I saw you and every time I see you, I'm always struck by what a talented performer you are. But I also am struck by the fact that your real passion, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't actually about being on stage and getting the attention for yourself. It's really about teaching and sharing improvisation with others.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I really enjoy performing and I find that very satisfying, but it feels like, I don't know, it's like a sugar rush a little bit that kind of fades quickly. And I feel like teaching and watching people.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Get excited and fall in love with something that you are excited about is like feels, you know, really meaningful in a nice way. And part of what is nice about improv is that, I don't know, it's not just about like being funny. So I think if it was just kind of like, I'll teach you how to be funny. I don't know that I would feel like deeply passionate about. I think it's, it's more about like the sense of like presence and creativity and being playful and being less self judgmental. I think a lot of those are things that help people not like freak out all day long. Certainly helped me that way. So it feels like there's something meaningful that's being delivered in the, almost by accident, in the act of like learning how to improvise.

• 4:56Chris Duffy?

  Well, so for people who don't, aren't already familiar with your work, I mean, you're too humble to fully brag for yourself, but I will just say from my perspective, you are, are truly regarded as like one of the, the single greatest improv teachers in the world. And you have taught everyone from, you've taught children, you've taught senior citizens, you've taught people in big corporations, you've taught Ira Glass from This American Life, you've taught Zorin Mabdani, the mayor of New York, before he was the mayor. So you've, you've really like taught this huge range of people and, and over many, many years. What do you think the, the biggest thing that a regular person, someone who is not interested in being a comedy professional gets out of learning improv?

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Uh, I think managing uncertainty improv is making up an idea, a scene, a story on the fly. Right? And the inherent nature of that is that you cannot be in control of where it's going to go. And I think people's brains do not like change and that kind of disruptive feeling. And so there's this like protective cognitive shell that we throw around where we lock into ideas or we would kind of disconnect from what's like kind of actually going on. And I think it's not that improv like makes you better at like knowing what's going to happen. I think if you watch where the good improvisers, it kind of seems like they knew, they know where it's going, but you, you don't develop this kind of like clairvoyance. You instead just get very comfortable not knowing what's going to happen and like managing

• 6:21Speaker 02

  uncertainty, but the, um, the extra anxiety on top of it of like managing that uncertainty of like all the stuff that I can't control, I think becomes that, you don't like turn it off entirely, but that voice gets quieter, I think. I've noticed that it's kind of not possible to be bored if you're hanging out with like three or four improvisers. It's not really like, because if nothing's happening, well, it's kind of not really possible, right? Like, you're sitting at the airport terminal and there's a delay. Like, you know, instead of people just like complaining all the time, you know, I feel like people just like look around a little bit and like, hey, look at how that guy walks. That's interesting.

• 6:51Chris Duffy?

  Yeah.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  That sign doesn't make any sense, you know? Why do they call it Hudson News? You know, whatever. Like, there's just a kind of curiosity about the present moment that I think does like translate off of that stage a little bit.

• 7:02Chris Duffy?

  The way that we are talking right now is actually kind of a great illustration of what building the muscles of improvisation have allowed you to do, because we are talking, like, not around the day that you are moving across continents, but we're literally like, you're doing this interview, and then in several hours, you will leave for the airport to move from the United States to Europe. And you seem so unbothered by that. The fact that we're like talking now, and then you're gonna have to leave to the airport and bring your family to in a totally new continent. I would be, even though I have studied improv too, I would be like pouring sweat and so stressed. And yet, you seem remarkably unstressed about the fact that you're about to do a transcontinental move.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  I might be like missing a section of my brain, you know, but I do think that, like, I taught all my classes yesterday, like, Sunday is a day that I teach and perform, and my classes were like, oh, when are you moving? And I was like, tomorrow. And they were all like, why are you here?

• 7:54Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, yes, that's exactly right.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  I like didn't understand the question, the reaction. I was like, why teach on Sundays? This is our last class, you know? I feel like improv is like, I've heard from people, it's like, it helps on dates and job interviews or whatever. Not that that's like the purpose of it, you know, or like how, like, why you should do it, but it is one of those things where anything, where you're in this situation where you feel a little nervous, you don't know how it's gonna go, someone might ask a question you weren't expecting. It's a lot of like just managing that moment a little bit. And I think you're doing that through, like, an enhanced set of like listening skills a little bit, like just paying attention, being in the moment, noticing stuff. But also, like, I think it builds self-confidence in a more genuine way. You know, it's not about like... I don't know, pretending to be this competent person. It's like improv is a lot of, as I'm sure

• 8:37Speaker 02

  you felt, learning it and getting really good at it, right? It's like you are trying your hand at it and not great at it at first, but you're doing this context where people are building off of every idea you say, no matter how bad it is, and people support you. So you kind of get to prove your ideas validity to yourself. I feel like I constantly was having moments where I was like, I don't know what I should do, and then I would say a thing, and your scene partner's like, great. And then you're like, okay, yeah, that was good. You know, like, it is like I'm putting the bumpers up on the bowling alley lane, so you like can't actually get a gutter ball. That's what improv feels to me.

• 9:07Chris Duffy?

  In a lot of ways, it reveals like a truth that we all know, right? Which is that you can actually only control the thing in the present moment, right? Like, you only control what you're doing right now. You've acknowledged the truth that like a lot of us pretend that we don't.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Do I wish I had packed more earlier? Absolutely. You know, it's not that like you do, you like learn the skill and then you stop like planning for things. It's just like, no matter how much you plan, you can't control everything. And so, planning is really good, but it's just, it's never going to go exactly how you think it's going to go. And it's never going to be. And I think some of that also, like, there's a reduction of anxiety. There's also kind of, when you're so anxious and worried about it, and it saps you from the present, you're missing out on all these really wonderful like moments. We both have like young kids, and I wonder if you felt some of this being with like a little kid, where they just like stop and like look at a leaf?

• 9:55Chris Duffy?

  Hmm, totally.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  And they will sit there and look at a leaf for like five minutes, and it's not an activity that I often do, like walk around. But it's awesome. Looking at a leaf totally rocks. And I should stop more and look at a leaf. Like, thinking about all the 10 things I have to do, I'm kind of missing the thing that is happening. And in improv, as you're building scenes, that's where a lot of the joy and discovery comes from, that we get to figure out these fun ideas together. And in life, it feels like when I remind myself to do that, I'm like, actually, I notice stuff. I notice things that are beautiful, or sad, or interesting, or compelling, or funny, or whatever it is.

• 10:25Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, well, one of the things that I think is so great about spending time with A young kid is they combine what we've been talking about like that real presence in the moment because they just live in the moment, but they also combine it with this silliness.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:40Chris Duffy?

  And I think it's not always intentional with a kid, but I think as an adult, this is the other flip side of improv is this silliness and play that I love. I mean, I was trying to think in preparation for this interview, what my first memory of you was, and it was watching you perform at an improv festival, I think it was in Boston, and you were an anthropomorphized gumball machine. And you were performing as the gumball machine and it was so silly. And I just remember laughing so hard, like truly tears coming down my cheeks as I was watching you be.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Sometimes doing improv, it's like, it's like someone who like gets blackout drunk and they don't remember what they did. Where you're like, if you say so.

• 11:18Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, well, also you've done this like thousands of times.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  That sounds fun. I would do that again if I, if I did that. That sounds great. Yeah.

• 11:24Chris Duffy?

  Well, but this is what I mean is like, it was really fun, but it was also so silly. Like you were in the moment pretending to be that, but also that's not something that like, you could be very in the moment for your whole life and never pretend to be a gumball machine because there's a silliness there that is also like that bringing that childlike play back into your life as an adult is also a big piece of this too.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  I think that's part of also what it's like, it feels like kind of meaningful silliness, you know? Because it's, um, it's a collaborative thing, not like a, the, the kind of like silly jokey thing that feels like unfun is like talking to someone and they're just like, they're trying to take everything you say and like be funny, you know, and do a bit and it's, it's kind of, um, intolerable, you know? Cause it's not really like a genuine engagement with you versus this sense of, of kind of playfulness where they're there and engaging with you, but they're just seeing the world with a playful eye. And, you know, pretending to be a gumball machine that was alive would probably not be very fun if I was doing with a bunch of people who acted like what I was doing was so lame and stupid. And, but you're doing this context where everybody else, I'm sure, I don't remember that show, but I'm sure they were all like, this is great. And they like built around it. And so it's kind of like, you learn over time that like, one, like the confidence and the lack of,

• 12:28Speaker 02

  like self criticism, I think is actually like what the audience is engaging with. Like they want to watch you guys like play in this like full, um, fully present way. And also you're like freed up to do that through the support of it. Like I don't know that I have it in me to like do that by myself, you know, to just be, everybody's, you know, you know, people have your back. And they're going to make whatever you do look good. It just creates this huge space where you actually feel like you can't fail, or it's kind of like not even on you to figure out like why it's good. It's like other people are going to do that job. And I think that that's a huge part of it is the like rapport and the trust in like the corporate term of like psychological safety. I get everything that that is like a lot of what improv is building.

• 13:07Chris Duffy?

  This is what I have trouble sometimes explaining to people who haven't done improv a lot, or even people who are improvisers who just improvise in a different way than I do, is that I think the skill is really great, and I think it builds these cool muscles of attention and playfulness and connectivity. But to me, the thing that actually I really loved the most about improv, and I like doing stand up too, I like doing all sorts of comedy. But the thing that I loved the most about improv was when you perform a lot with the same people. So not just once, right? Like, once you still feel that, oh, you have my back. But like, when you really get to know each other, and you know what they think is funny, and you know the things that they have references for, and the things that they don't have cultural references for,

• 13:50Chris Duffy?

  that like deep knowledge of each other, combined with the trust that you're going to make each other look good, that to me was like what was so magic, was being in a in a moment where I knew like, my friend Tim actually does not know anything about Shakespeare. And yet, if I say to him,

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:05Chris Duffy?

  You're a famous Shakespearean actor. He will immediately pretend to be a Shakespearean actor, and he'll say everything wrong, and we will just agree that that is correct. And the audience will laugh because it's so obvious how he does not know Shakespeare, and yet he's going for it because we're all going to make him look good on that. Like, that is the joy, I think.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is really nice to be in a supportive context. I remember going back to my college improv team reunion show, and there are a bunch of folks there who I had improvised with. I was a freshman, and they were seniors. I really only did improv with them for one year. And they were now, this was 10 years after I graduated. So it was, everybody was full adults, and I hadn't seen people yet in a long time. And it was that thing of like, you kind of expect, oh, it's that person. Then you're kind of hanging out, and you're like, oh, we actually don't know each other that well at all, because I haven't talked to you in 10 years. And then when we did the show, it kind of felt like no time had passed, just so weird. Because it was like, oh, yeah, I actually didn't know these people in this like social way that much. I wasn't like hanging out with them every weekend necessarily, but I knew them in this. Playful way. The way I knew them is this like language of communication that we have as improvising together.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  There is that weird kind of connection where you're like, oh yeah, I just feel like we're like on the same wavelength at this point.

• 15:10Chris Duffy?

  And I also think it's a feeling you can get in a really like long-term relationship, whether that is, you know, a romantic relationship or a friend relationship. But improv, I think, especially the way that you teach it, it can be a way to, it's a shortcut to get there. You can get that kind of emotional intimacy and that safety with people in a much shorter amount of time. Which is why I think a lot of people do really value this in like a corporate or work setting or universities. Cause you want to have that closeness, but you don't have, you know, 10 years of hanging out to get to that place.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  I do think it is helpful in all the ways that we're talking about, but it's not like you go in the room being like, the entire point of everything we're doing is to be more confident or to be a better doctor or to have friends or whatever.

• 15:53Chris Duffy?

  Yeah.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  It's kind of like you learn and grow through the act of like trying to develop a craft and like trying to like do this task together. Like a lot of people I know who I feel like are really, I don't know, I admire or mature in these ways. I do think like in a weird way, sometimes a lot of them kind of found themselves through the act of doing a thing that wasn't, the purpose of it wasn't to like fix them or make them something better or whatever. It was just kind of like they got really into like rock climbing or they got super into like playing the piano or whatever it is. And then in each one of these like skills or whatever, if you apply yourself to it, it has like different lessons to teach you, you know, like, like learning an amusement park takes a kind of dedication and like, like a commitment to practice that, um, for example, improv does not require, you know?

• 16:34Speaker 02

  So yeah, like rock climbing requires a little bit of like facing like physical fears in a way that like improv is scary, but not like I'm going to fall off the rock way.

• 16:41Chris Duffy?

  And yet many people do feel that. I think a lot of people feel that like visceral, physical fear of like, I'm going to be in front of people performing, being silly. Like that is, I think a lot of people fear that more than falling off the rock.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  But you kind of know that you're actually not going to die when you are rock climbing. You might actually die.

• 16:56Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, I guess that's true.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  So it's like, I think each one of these things, like, it's like pulling different parts of a potential version of you kind of out. Like, your current personality is interacting with this craft, or skill, or game, or sport, or activity, and like, having that right angle on it versus, when I have students who are like, for example, they're like, really obsessed with getting good, it's actually really unfun energy to perform with, of like, I just want to do it right, you know? And it's kind of like, people are like, yeah, this is cool, I'm, you know, keep doing it and see how it goes. Like, that actually turns into building a lot of skills pretty quickly. So, and there's something kind of nice about it, that like, we have this group task, and the actual focus is not on like, what I'm getting out of this, what I'm supposed to be doing, it's all on helping the group, helping the moment, helping the scene. Being present so that it can be successful kind of requires for getting yourself in it,

• 17:41Speaker 02

  which I think is like, a really, one of the active ingredients on like, why this thing is fun, and also like, meaningful in a way that doesn't feel like disposable.

• 17:52Chris Duffy?

  We're gonna take a quick break, and then we will be right back.

• 18:01Chris Duffy?

  This episode is brought to you by Planet Visionaries, a podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. What connects a hidden laboratory in the Amazon, giant pandas in China's mountain forests, research relating to the ocean, and communities living alongside wildlife in India? That's what you'll hear on season six of Planet Visionaries. Stories from the explorers, scientists, and conservation leaders whose work addresses research, biodiversity, and conservation issues in specific locations. Planet Visionaries, hosted by environmental advocate and professional climber Alex Honnold, brings you real stories of discovery, determination, and research and initiatives relating to environmental change.

• 18:45Chris Duffy?

  In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts.

• 18:54Speaker 01

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• 19:52Chris Duffy?

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• 20:52Chris Duffy?

  And we are back. The funniest people who I've ever done improv with are often almost clueless as to why the laugh is happening. And it's because they're so committed to just like saying the thing that they're seeing, or they say something that is unusual, but is true to what they're feeling. And that gets this huge laugh. And it's so fun to play with them because they're they're unexpected, but they're also genuine. And that's, that's something that doesn't really work in other contexts. But I think in real life, we love that too, right? Like you walk into a a room and it smells really bad. And a bunch of people are pretending like it doesn't smell bad. And then someone just goes, it smells horrible in here. That person calling out the reality of it is often the person where you're like, okay, at least that one person is real. And I think in an improv scene, that's often the funniest thing that a person can do is just to say exactly what is happening.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Oh, totally. Yeah. I'm remembering a guy who used to perform at the theater who was like, he was like, one of the worst actors I'd ever seen in my entire life. But he had this incredible stage charm. He was just like, one of these guys that his, his action personality lacked that like censor. He was just like, it never occurred to him to not say exactly what popped into his brain, even if there was no possible way to justify or explain why that is. And so it's like, on paper, he would be like, making the wrong choice, but it always felt joyful and fun. And it was so fun to play with because you knew it was like authentic and genuine versus someone who's kind of like, you know, probably talk a lot about like the yes and, right? Like, how can I build off this idea? So it's like, sometimes someone will start a scene and they're like, Dad, I have to go to the potty. And the other person's like, son, you're 35. And it gets this kind of cheap laugh where it's kind of like, that laugh kind of comes at the expense of your

• 22:19Speaker 02

  partner. Like, you know, they don't think they're 35, right?

• 22:22Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  What really matters actually is not whether we get the ideas right. It's that we're trying to do it. So it's kind of like, what was my honest read on your thing? And if I get it wrong, it actually still feels really fun and joyful.

• 22:33Chris Duffy?

  You know, people talk about yes and is like, we agree and then we build. But I think there's this other piece in exactly what you said, right? Someone starts a scene and they say, I have to go to the potty daddy and then the person says, son, you're 35. The reason denying what that person said, it doesn't work like on a technical comedic level. It gets this cheap laugh and doesn't keep going. But the thing that I, it took me a long time to put my finger on is one of the things that is so beautiful about improv is like, I walk on stage and I am not my physical form. I am not like a white dad in his late 30s, right? I could be anything. I could be a giant red balloon. I could be.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  A gumball machine.

• 23:10Chris Duffy?

  I could be a gumball machine. I could be a spaceship. I could be a tiny little squirrel. I could be a woman from 1835, right? Like I could be anything. And so what you have to do as your, as the partner is to pay attention to how that person is defining themselves.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:27Chris Duffy?

  And if you don't, and you just put a definition on them that is not true to what they've said in the scene, it's you kind of like putting your preconceptions on them. And, and you see this a lot of times where people like won't let, for example, like a female improviser, they won't let them play a male character. And it's like, well, that is you bringing all your own crap into the scene rather than actually existing in the scene. And I think that's like, that's where the beauty is, is like actually just seeing the person as what they are claiming to be and defining themselves as, rather than your idea of who they have to be.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  You know, if I have students in their 60s and 70s, like, you know, some students will come out and be like, nice kickflip. And the other person's like, thanks, grandpa. And it's like, I don't think he thought he was your grandpa, you know?

• 24:06Chris Duffy?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  You know, people who are 24, like only, they maybe don't have a bunch of friends who are 75. So their only association is like, you're my grandpa, right? And it's like, that is that cool way of seeing kind of beyond each other. Like, let's take the thing of, um, uh, I need to go to the potty, son, you're 35, right? So if you do it the opposite way where it's like, dad, I need to go to the potty, right? Good improvisers are just getting as much possible information as out of it as can. So not only did I tell you that you're my dad, but I think I probably pretty. Strongly imply that we are not at home, right? Because if they can use the potty, like they could maybe go by themselves at some point, you know, or whatever, like they, but there's also something in the tone of voice. It's like, I kind of need your help, whatever. So, you know, if we're at home, I do need you to like, help me. I'm not able to like, go by myself kind of thing. You actually already have narrowed the frame in a subtle way.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  But if you're ignoring all that to get this joke, you actually don't pick up on any of those potential informations. You like lose it. And if you really think about what you're doing there on a cognitive level, and you're kind of thinking, what do I think you think is true about the scene? And because this is a fictional world, I'm essentially asking myself, how are you seeing the world? It's kind of like the literal definition of empathy, right? It's like trying to see the world from someone else's eyes. And I do think that's kind of like, why that thing works is I have to do this perspective taking in order to not just understand what did you say or do, but like, what was, not where are you going with it? Cause there is no, we're not in control of that. But like, given all of the clues I have, what do I think you think is happening right now? Right?

• 25:31Chris Duffy?

  I actually do buy into why so many like business people or leaders or, you know, people in stressful situations take improv workshops. It's for the exactly that, right? Because how do you not bring your own ideas about what this person is telling you, but instead really hear what someone is saying and get all the information out of it? To not put them in a box, but rather to actually like, hear what's in the moment is, is a really incredibly and super valuable skill for a leader.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  I did a workshop with a bunch of physicians recently and we ended up having this really interesting conversation about the difference between yeah and yeah. So like, it's like, okay, does this hurt? Does it hurt if I do this? Yeah. Does it hurt if I do this? Yeah. They're, they're different, right? Like one is like eight and the other is like 6.5 or whatever, right? But it's all in the tone. And I think like, my understanding is that a lot of doctors get trained, kind of like how salespeople get trained sometimes where it's like, here's the like, the things you're going to say, and then depending on what they answer, you're going to go down this pathway or this pathway, where it's like, I'm asking you these 12 questions right in a row. And so I might hear the actual answers you give, but if I'm in my head thinking about what the next question is, I now may be missing some of the like little human things, which, which is ultimately like,

• 26:40Speaker 02

  Sometimes when I go to the doctor, I don't just want like information about what is wrong with me, but I want someone to like, um, tell me that I'm gonna be okay. You know what I mean? Which is like an emotional need that is not a medical one. And you're not gonna pick up on that in the symptoms that I present. You're gonna pick up on that and like noticing my body language and my facial expressions and my tone of voice.

• 26:58Chris Duffy?

  So you walk into a room full of doctors and you are there to lead an improv workshop. What's an exercise that you do with them that you feel like unlocks something inside of them?

• 27:11Speaker 02

  A lot of what we start with is just warming up, do a little name game, get to know each other, have a little fun, some group exercises, just so people can feel like, oh, this is actually not so hard and we're doing it. There's a yes and exercise that I often use in these workshops at companies and in level one in prep class. It's called alibi. Do you remember this game, Chris?

• 27:27Chris Duffy?

  I don't know. Remind me.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Okay, it's great. So the setup is like, I'm the facilitator, I am a parent, and then we get two people up and they are my teenage children who are siblings. And so the setup is that like, they're coming home late to pass their curfew. And what they've really been doing is they were at a party. Um, but I will ground them. That's not a good reason to be late, right? So instead, the two teenagers have to come up with a lie on the spot about why they're late. If they contradict each other, that's when I know that they're lying. But if they support each other, then I, then they might get out of trouble. So if I'm like, why are you late? And the person was like, oh, we got stuck in traffic. But then the other person was like, no, we didn't. We were swallowed by a whale.

• 28:07Chris Duffy?

  Uh huh.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Okay. You know, but it was like, oh, we got stuck in traffic. Yeah. There was a big event at the aquarium. Yeah, they brought, they, they, they're having a, a blue whale. It's the first time ever a blue whale captivity, et cetera, et cetera. So now we're like riffing off of each other. The context is very intuitive that we are on the same team. And if not, I'm not trying to win this game. We both succeed by making each other look good.

• 28:29Chris Duffy?

  Okay, man, what about? Muscle building exercises that people do. I mean, well, I'll tell you one that I think of a lot, which is like seven things. So it's just naming seven things in a category. And I think of that as just a great way of getting out of the idea of right and wrong, right? But you give someone a category, they name as fast as they can.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  So, Chris, seven Winter Olympic sports.

• 28:50Chris Duffy?

  Okay, ready?

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 28:53Chris Duffy?

  Skiing.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  One.

• 28:55Chris Duffy?

  Sledding.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Two.

• 28:56Chris Duffy?

  Bob sledding.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Three.

• 28:58Chris Duffy?

  Ice skating.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Four.

• 28:59Chris Duffy?

  Ice skating with jumping.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Five.

• 29:01Chris Duffy?

  Ice skating with falling.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Six.

• 29:03Chris Duffy?

  Rocket launching.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Seven. Yeah.

• 29:05Chris Duffy?

  And cereal. Okay.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Eight.

• 29:07Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, great.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  And then you did the thing too, which is like, okay, now do a version where like explicitly, you have to be wrong. So I'm going to give you a category and it's only incorrect answers.

• 29:15Chris Duffy?

  Oh, great. Okay, let's do that. That's fun.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Seven made up incorrect breakfast cereals.

• 29:19Chris Duffy?

  Okay, sardine trans.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  One.

• 29:24Chris Duffy?

  King Cobra.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Two.

• 29:27Chris Duffy?

  Sharp edges.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Three.

• 29:30Chris Duffy?

  Square buttons.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Four.

• 29:32Chris Duffy?

  Taco littles.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Five.

• 29:35Chris Duffy?

  Giant squares.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Six.

• 29:38Chris Duffy?

  Tree balls.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Seven. Amazing.

• 29:40Chris Duffy?

  Okay.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  And then if this is a group of people who've done this before, I often like play that game. And when people say the answers that are wrong, even experience surprises, you can see their face going like, this is so stupid, like sharp edges, what am I saying? But then I'm like, okay, now just do some scenes, like with that as the start, where it's like, so what brings you to the doctor today? Um, I think I had too many sharp edges. I had a whole bowl this morning. It's not going down well, you know? It's like when you're saying the wrong answer, your brain still kind of goes like, ah. And then if someone else just takes that and is like, actually, I love that. I think that's brilliant. I want, I want to watch the Olympic sport that's skating with jumps. It's not bigger skating. It's, it's speed skating with jumps. It's like ice hurdles, you know?

• 30:20Chris Duffy?

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Like taking the wrong thing and like figuring out, well, why couldn't that be great? It's like such a good creative muscle. And that's where a lot of like actual solutions come from is not like, when I'm running brainstorm sessions, it's exceedingly rare that the, the, the, the favorite idea by the end of the session started as someone saying something very safe and bland and ass covering. And then people riff that into innovativeness. Instead, it starts as someone saying something that is stupid, that is not practical and is maybe even actually literally a joke. And then it's, but it's got this kernel to it. And then someone else is like, yeah, we can't do that. But like, oh, what about that with this way, you know? And you're actually like working it into practicality, right?

• 30:57Chris Duffy?

  I think if there's some reason why it can't be the obvious answer, or like the 10% close to the obvious answer isn't right, that's where people struggle because even for me, right? Just now, like it couldn't be lower stakes. It is uncomfortable to say things that are wrong and different and weird. And I love that that game just like builds the muscle of it where in the lowest stakes way, it's just like, okay, I'm just, I have to say something. The only unacceptable answer is nothing. The only thing that is not right is if I stop and wait until I can think of something that is quote unquote, correct. That's the only way to be wrong.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  It's about trying to get the right answer together, you know, like, like, like I'm trying to read your reality and like, being wrong is fun and fine if, if I'm genuinely doing it. I was having a class this summer and this, I don't know, kind of a middle aged American guy, I think I can't remember now, someone started a scene and was like, you know, basically doing Speed, you know, the movie? And they were like, I can't drive the bus below 50 miles an hour, it's going to explode. And the other person, I think it just moved from like Taiwan or Singapore, like they've been in the country like three months. They were 23, they have not seen the 90s action movie Speed. They were just like, slow down, you're hurting my tummy. You know, it was like, it was such a much funnier scene being like, there is no bomb, actually. It's just like the bus driver is

• 32:12Speaker 02

  crazy and he's making everybody like carsick. And it was like, oh yeah, we met in this like middle space between both people's associations. So it's like, it's actually not even knowing the reference. It's just like, I'm taking the text of what you gave me, I'm making my best interpretation of it. And actually, like both people had more fun in the new third scene that was created out of both of their ideas than either one of them would have had if the scene had just gone exactly like each of them was expecting. Does this make sense?

• 32:35Chris Duffy?

  Hmm.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  I think that's like why we're trying to, why, why do we get together to be creative? Why do we do brainstorm sessions with people? Why do we like riff? It's because there's this kind of like, I don't know, kind of a weird metaphor, but like, it's like a gene pool of ideas. Like, if it's just me riffing myself, it's like, I'm not getting enough like genetic diversity, you know, in the, in the gene pool. It's like zoos got to trade their animals with like the other zoos, right? It's like you have different experiences than I do, and you have slightly different associations or very different associations than I do. And that's not a weakness, that's a strength. So when I say something, you're going to have this slightly different association to it. And then your response is not going to be what I was expecting and vice versa.

• 33:07Chris Duffy?

  You've taught a lot of people for many years. Have you ever done? A private improv lesson? Like for one person? Is that even possible? What would it be like?

• 33:18Speaker 02

  If people are determined to pay me to do it, I will be grateful to do it. Like sometimes I'll do public speaking training for like executive folks. And I'm always trying to get them to do a small group with a couple of their colleagues. And like the higher people up are, the more nervous they are about that. Because it's so much more fun. It like opens up the kinds of exercises you can do. And then it feels like, okay, it's not just one person. And then me like, hey, try this. It's like the two or three of us. You need someone to play with, you know, in a lot of these exercises. Like it's kind of involved in bouncing off the other person. And a lot of the benefits that we were talking about earlier, I think, come from that bowling alley bumper gutter thing. So it's kind of like, if the goal is to like build your creativity and confidence, I think actually doing that by yourself might seem less scary,

• 34:00Speaker 02

  but it's ultimately like less impactful than having at least one other person there who you have to like, trust and like put yourself out there for, because then they are the bumper that helps. And you're their bumper, like you're both kind of nudging each other back on the lane in these nice ways.

• 34:14Chris Duffy?

  Because of this podcast and because of the book that I wrote, I've interviewed several therapists and psychologists who study anxiety. And one of the things that they all talked about that feels really related here is how

• 34:27Chris Duffy?

  one of the most effective treatments for people who are anxious is to just have them test the thing that they're afraid of against reality. Right? Like you're afraid that if you go out in the street, something terrible will happen. So let's go out in the street for five minutes. Just see, like you're walking on the sidewalk, does something terrible happen? No. Okay. Maybe that means that like it's a valid fear, but it's not a guaranteed thing that is going to happen. And I think the reason why speaking and playing in a group of people is so helpful is I think it does take that fear that people have of like, I need to prepare all alone because otherwise things are going to be disastrous when people hear me speak in public. To just go like, let's do it. Let's have a disaster in front of some people and see how bad it is. And it ends up not being bad at all.

• 35:12Chris Duffy?

  It ends up being fun.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  I mean, I wonder if this is, you're not always interviewing people who do a thing that you also are.

• 35:18Chris Duffy?

  Sure. Yeah, yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Chris is also very humble. He's also extremely good at improv and knows a ton about it. Like what is Chris before doing improv or comedy or performing? And like now, like, can you really feel this like phase shift of like the way it's kind of like shaped you?

• 35:33Chris Duffy?

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• 38:00Chris Duffy?

  It's a great question. I mean, my honest answer is that I think so much of who I am is because of doing improv and comedy. And I started doing it when I was young, so I wasn't like a fully formed person yet. You know, I was like in college and still figuring out who I was. So it's hard for me to say like, this is who I was before, because I think the formation of who I am, it's kind of tied to it. But I think the biggest thing was realizing that the best thing I could do if I wanted to look good was to not make myself look good, but to make the people that I was there with look good. Like that that was the secret trick is you want everyone to enjoy the show. Don't make it so you're the best person in the show. Make it so the other person on stage is the best person in the show. And then they're trying to do the same thing.

• 38:45Chris Duffy?

  And through that, you all look great. I think that was a really big lesson because I think that's counterintuitive to how I'm wired, where I would like to be regarded as the best person in the show. You know, I'm like, but what if I did this? And then realizing that that actually was always the way to backfire and make yourself look bad is to, you know, try and steal the joke rather than give the joke away. And I mean, not like steal the joke, like steal like a written joke, but like steal the punchline, steal the laugh rather than like give the laugh to your partner.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  It's that thing of like, am I worried about like how I'm looking? You know, it's just, it's not a comfortable space. And it is more fun, actually, like long term. It is more enjoyable and fun to try to make other people succeed.

• 39:20Chris Duffy?

  Yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Because the kinds of things that you all can do as a group, when everyone is playing that way, far, far outpace what you can do if everybody is out there trying to get their own individual laughs and make themselves look good. It's like a basketball team where like everybody's shooting the second they get the ball. It's like, you're not going to play very well. You need people to like cut and drive and set picks and. Hustle on defense and like it's funny watching the All-Star game in like every sport because it sucks so much. It's like all the best people and like they don't know how to play with each other. So like everyone has like maxed out their skill levels, but like you kind of need some guy who like doesn't make, you know, um, the all-star salary, who's, his only job is to like just harass people on defense at the free point line or whatever. Right? Like these pieces all have to fit together in some way. And in

• 40:04Speaker 02

  improv, it's not like you have this designated role, but it's kind of like, we're all trying to like be whatever the show needs that night.

• 40:10Chris Duffy?

  Kind of across the board, any successful creative person I've talked to, um, or no, will tell you that one of the biggest differences between like when they actually became successful and before, when they had this idea of what it meant to be a musician, or a writer, or a comedian, or whatever it is that they do, an artist. Um, one of the, the most consistent things that I, I really just feel like everyone experiences is I thought this was a thing that you do alone, or you do just with your little group, like your little band. And then they realized that success is actually being part of a scene, is actually being like supported and challenged and inspired by other people. And so even in the fields that are like, like a novelist is not a team sport. And yet it is such an unbelievably rare novelist, whose

• 40:53Chris Duffy?

  work is not the product of their relationships, um, and their creative partnerships and the people who, um, inspire them. And so that thing of like, together we are smarter than we could ever be alone.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:05Chris Duffy?

  I've heard, um, I think Brian Eno is the one who coined this term, seniors, like not genius, but seniors.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:11Chris Duffy?

  It's the genius of the scene. And I think that is such a profound creative truth.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  I was just talking to someone about music that like pre-internet, any non-commercial genre was hyper geographically focused. Like remember like all, all the grunge bands came out of Seattle, right? And like most of the eighties thrash metal bands were like from San Francisco. I'm a metalhead, so this is most of my like knowledge, but like, um, like of the like top 10, like seminal eighties death metal bands, like all 10 of them are either from Tampa Bay, Florida, or Birmingham, England. It's so random because it's kind of like you could not hear like guttural death metal on the radio like you could only see it at a show or someone played it for you. So it was like there was a band in Tampa Bay and like they were they figured the thing out and then people watch it and they were like, let's try something like that. And they were all it was this kind of collective thing. And like, when you go to write a novel, you sit down

• 42:00Speaker 02

  by yourself, but you are also like in conversation with like all of the books that you have ever read and all of the knowledge that's been passed to you and all of the your experiences all kind of rattling around in there. And yeah, it is like being able to see and watch people do it is itself kind of part of the the seniors and like part of the conversation about it.

• 42:17Chris Duffy?

  Okay, before we go, is there another exercise or improv activity that you like that we could do with just two, just the two of us?

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Do you want to do a little fortunately, unfortunately? There's like a really simple one that will play pretty well on audio or video.

• 42:31Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, explain it.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Okay, this is like a warm up game. It's like not like too deep of a game, but it's a really just simple fun warm up for like the managing uncertainty thing. So this is a game that like anybody can do. They don't have to practice or done improv. So feel free to play this at home. We're gonna make a story together and we're gonna build it one sentence at a time. So I'll give the first sense and then every other sense after that is going to alternate either beginning with the phrase fortunately or unfortunately. So if I said, I went to the pet store to get a puppy, then the next, then you would say like, unfortunately, the pet store only had lizards. And then I would say like, fortunately, I'm a huge lizard fan.

• 43:06Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, the only lizard left was a Komodo dragon. Fortunately, I've got a huge yard, etc., etc. Would you like to be fortunately or unfortunately?

• 43:14Chris Duffy?

  I'll be fortunately.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  So I'll start with a bit of a negative news. I was walking to the train and I tripped on the curb.

• 43:24Chris Duffy?

  Fortunately, you're going to get a huge class action settlement.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, unfortunately, I just can't stand lawyers. You know, like, I really don't have it in me to just deal with being in court.

• 43:36Chris Duffy?

  Fortunately, your lawyer also hates other lawyers.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Unfortunately, my lawyer is my ex and it's just been real tense doing these filing the paperwork.

• 43:47Chris Duffy?

  Fortunately, this presents an incredible opportunity for you two to sort through all of the issues that drove you apart in your relationship.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, I'm also remembering why we broke up.

• 43:59Chris Duffy?

  Fortunately, she's.

• 44:04Chris Duffy?

  Really starting to see that you weren't as bad as she had made you out to be.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, she's already fallen madly in love with Dale, who's her new partner.

• 44:15Chris Duffy?

  Fortunately, Dale seems like a cool guy.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, he doesn't like me at all.

• 44:20Chris Duffy?

  Fortunately, Dale is teaching you about setting clear boundaries, a lesson you needed to learn.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, I am a slow learner.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Awesome. Great. Yeah.

• 44:31Chris Duffy?

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  It's a super silly game and it's like fun in that it always goes a direction that is literally impossible to predict from the first sentence. I did this a while ago and the first sentence was, "You're walking into a restaurant for a first date." And then it's a group of like 20 people. And the very first person said, "Unfortunately, I had a heart attack and died in the restaurant." And I could feel the whole group go like, "Well, what are we gonna do now?" And the next person was like, "Fortunately, I became a ghost, a friendly ghost who haunted the restaurant and helped people have good dates." And this whole story became about like how we were like helping other people on their dates as a ghost. And it was like, the thing that feels like you've quote-unquote like ruined it or like that's a mistake, actually turns out sometimes to be the best part of the idea. That is the memorable portion of it.

• 45:13Chris Duffy?

  I love that. The thing that you think is the disaster might turn out to be the greatest gift of all. Well, Rick Andrews, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and this was no exception.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. And can I say, I'm sure listeners who don't know you might wonder, "Gosh, he seems like a really nice guy." But, you know, sometimes in real life, people are actually jerks. And I just want to confirm for everybody that Chris is the actual nicest person, one of the nicest people I know on the planet Earth.

• 45:33Chris Duffy?

  Oh, that's so nice. I thought you were gonna go for the cheap punchline and say, "He's a monster." But I appreciate that you did.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  No, like, you're so lovely and everybody who knows you feels the same way. Thanks, man. Thanks so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

• 45:46Chris Duffy?

  That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Rick Andrews. You can find him online at rickandrewsimprov.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new book, Humor Me, is out now. You can find out more about my book and all my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a group of Zip Zap Zops. On the TED side, I'm getting yes-handed by Daniela Valarezo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha, Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansukasuma Nivong, Antonio Le, and Joseph DeBryan. Ryan Lash edits the video and picks the perfect moment to black out each scene, and Mateus Salas checks the facts to make sure we are not inventing our sources or statistics. On the PRX side, there are the Herald Night of Audio, Morgan Flannery,

• 46:29Chris Duffy?

  Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. You are the best scene partner I could ever ask for. Please, send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it, someone who has your back. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, don't make any plans, just improvise.

• 46:54Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot: What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court, and that fight needs your support today. Donate at N R D C dot org slash human, and your gift will be matched five times.

• 47:41Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by PayPal. This holiday season, don't miss your chance to turn "just looking" into "just bought it." Make it easy for your customers to say yes on the spot. PayPal Checkout is a trusted conversion engine fueled by 400 million active PayPal and Venmo accounts, and when you add Pay Later, you can turn holiday shoppers into regulars. 96% of Pay Later shoppers are repeat users, so if you give them Pay Later flexibility now, it could help earn their loyalty all year long. PayPal is built for all business. Get started at PayPal dot com slash business. PayPal data eight markets, March 2025 to February 2026. Repeat users defined as more than one Pay Later purchase in the past year.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Parloa. Look, most businesses want their customers to feel heard, not stuck waiting around for someone who can help. Nothing makes you feel less important than sitting on hold for hours explaining the same problem to the fifth person who picks up. But here's the thing, the bigger you get, the harder it becomes to show up the way you want to in each customer interaction. Parloa solves that problem. Their voice-first AI agents handle customer conversations in a way that feels natural, personal, and helpful. They work 24/7 across voice chat and email in any language with zero wait time. Plus, your team gets access to features like Lens,

• 49:11Speaker 01

  which flags issues in real time, and Navigator, which figures out why those issues are happening and what to do next. It's secure, scalable, and built to serve the customer. When AI works well, it shouldn't feel like AI. It should feel like you're being seen and heard and valued. Unhold your customers with Parloa. Learn more at parloa.com. That's P-A-R-L-O-A dot com.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.gle/workspacewithGemini.