Nigella Lawson Orders Food Like A Method Actor (Reheat)

Nigella Lawson is a domestic goddess of the highest order. She strikes the perfect balance between aspiration — a beautiful garden, perfect lighting — and accessibility — sheet pan dinners and a disdain for pretentiousness. Nigella reveals how her own cooking show persona comes from her discomfort in social situations, and shares the two condiments she always keeps in her purse.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

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• 0:44Dan Pashman?

  From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 0:59Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone. Dan here, back with another Sporkful reheat for you. And this week, I am bringing you my conversation with the one and only Nigella Lawson. She is so thoughtful and so incisive. I, this is one of those conversations that really sticks with you. It's stuck with me over the years. So many of her observations, her thoughts about her own work, her own life, and also her deep, deep love of Coleman's mustard. So I think about Nigella every time I pull that jar of Coleman's mustard out of my fridge. She also has thoughts on how our personalities are magnified and sometimes distorted when we appear on TV. Now, remember, if there's an episode of the Sporkful you want us to pull out of the deep freezer and fire up, let me know. Drop me an email or a voice memo to [email protected]. Don't forget to tell me your name, location, what episode you want us to reheat, and why. Thanks so much and enjoy.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  I'm gonna slurp. You're gonna have to be patient.

• 1:48Dan Pashman?

  Go ahead, slurp, yes. Take your time. I'll slurp too, so we'll slurp together here.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  That was a very good slurp.

• 1:55Dan Pashman?

  I'm an audio professional, Nigella.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, far away. What are you gonna ask me now?

• 2:00Dan Pashman?

  This is Nigella Lawson, Food TV star and author of 11 bestselling cookbooks. Well, I saw in your, in some interview with you that I'd read, you said, what was the quote? Oh, that you get murderous and suicidal when you don't eat. Have you had a chance to eat today?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Yes, I have. You're very lucky because I didn't yesterday.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. I had a very big, you know, American-style salad.

• 2:25Dan Pashman?

  What denotes an American-style salad, besides the size?

• 2:28Speaker 01

  No, that's the size. I did actually have some things removed from it.

• 2:32Dan Pashman?

  Really?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:33Dan Pashman?

  What did you have removed?

• 2:35Speaker 01

  I had some onions removed and some tortilla chips removed. And I think on reflection, I should have had the tomatoes removed.

• 2:46Dan Pashman?

  Just because of quantity?

• 2:47Speaker 01

  Just because of quantity and because they were not ripe.

• 2:50Dan Pashman?

  That too, yeah.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Obviously, I ate it all. But nevertheless, I did, I did have, so I did have a big salad and it had lots of avocado in, so I'm very full up.

• 2:58Dan Pashman?

  Good, good. I did study abroad in London many years ago, and I remember being struck that at the McDonald's there, if you supersize a meal, you get a fries and drink that are the size of the regular meal in America.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  That is astonishing.

• 3:14Dan Pashman?

  Right, and if you super, when you supersize in America, the size of cup and fry container that you get in America, like, they don't even send those containers across the Atlantic.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  I wonder if it's changed now.

• 3:23Dan Pashman?

  I wonder.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  And now that we eat as much as you. So that's an alarming thought, as is the idea that you came to London and spent your time in McDonald's.

• 3:32Dan Pashman?

  I was 21 years old, Nigella, and I didn't have as refined.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  No, you didn't have the budget either, I suspect.

• 3:38Dan Pashman?

  That's true, yeah. I remember deep-pan pizza, all-you-can-eat pizza night, five pounds.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Depressing. Did you read anything good?

• 3:46Dan Pashman?

  I, I, it was in London that I learned that frying is an art. I never thought of that and I had phenomenal fishing ships, which I know is a bit of a cliche.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  No, it's great.

• 3:54Dan Pashman?

  Seashells of Listen Grove will forever be in my heart. No, I'm dying to go back because I feel like, back then I didn't really like spicy food. Now I like spicy, and there's so many great different cultural cuisines in London that, you know, that I didn't know enough to even look for when I lived there the first time.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  I would like to come back and eat, I would like to come and eat more here.

• 4:13Dan Pashman?

  And just take the time, right?

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Take the time.

• 4:15Dan Pashman?

  Right, right. Go on an eating tour.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  You're so frightened of risking a bad meal when you're somewhere for a short time, whereas you can take more risks when you're there in a place for a longer time.

• 4:23Dan Pashman?

  That's so true. Is there a recent experience you had with that feeling? That you had wasted a meal?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Often. I'll tell you what I find very difficult, going somewhere, just generally going somewhere and not having any choice. It reminds me of being a child.

• 4:38Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  And then I realized maybe that's why I cook such a lot, because no one can impose their will on me.

• 4:49Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Over the past 20-plus years, Nigella Lawson has hosted hugely popular food TV shows on the BBC, Food Network and more. Her cookbooks have sold more than 12 million copies worldwide. She's best known for the books How to Eat, Feast, and the one that really launched her career, How to Be a Domestic Goddess. It's a classic of that genre of books that promise simple recipes is the key to a better life. Her latest is Cook, Eat, Repeat: Ingredients, Recipes and Stories. And she's on tour in North America talking about it right now. And I really admire her work because, you know, there's a lot of food personalities out there

• 5:32Dan Pashman?

  who are like, "I'm gonna show you how to make this thing and it's gonna be so, so easy." And then you watch them make it and you're like... That was not easy. I would really struggle to do that. And Nigella actually delivers. She has great recipes that are simple, but that often have one or two ingredients that are just the kinds of things that I would never know to add. And I gotta say, coming into this conversation, I knew that Nigella was smart and funny. But as I learned, she also has an amazing ability to just cut right to the heart of a question and say something really profound in a way that's so plain spoken, you can miss how amazing it is. In fact, I think I got as much from listening back to this conversation as I did having it in real life. So you may want to listen twice so you don't miss anything.

• 6:16Dan Pashman?

  Let's pick it up where we left off at the top of the show. Nigella was saying that she doesn't like eating at places with very few choices, but she told me she also doesn't like too many options.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  I find making decisions incredibly difficult.

• 6:29Dan Pashman?

  Why?

• 6:31Speaker 01

  I don't know, because I suppose you're saying no to a whole range of possibilities. So I have in a restaurant what I call my Stanislavski ordering technique.

• 6:41Dan Pashman?

  Oh, wow. Wait, that's the acting?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Method.

• 6:44Dan Pashman?

  Acting method, right.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  You know, that's method acting rather than acting method.

• 6:48Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Method acting when you only had to live something.

• 6:50Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  So I go through the menu and I actually have, and there I am, and I've said, that's me with, that's me with the pasta with sage and squash. I mean pasta with sage, because I'm eating pasta, sage.

• 7:03Dan Pashman?

  So you put yourself in the head of that character.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Do I want, I'm me doing that? No, I don't want to be having that. No, actually, it's not what I want to be eating. And I have to go through the various things. And then I'm, after, really, it's just everyone is really like, you're ordering, can you order now? And then I do it. And then, so then the waiter goes, and I had to go, come back, come back. Actually, no, I'm gonna have the chicken, whatever. And I really go through things like that. And I try, and I change my mind. And I, sometimes I think you just have to go with your first instinct, you see. You mustn't deliberate for too long. It corrupts, it corrupts as a direct force of a desire.

• 7:41Dan Pashman?

  Right. I understand. I like the Stanislavski methods. You really, it's like you're, you're testing out different versions of Nigella Lawson.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, quite a lot of these Nigellas eating these other things have to be killed off.

• 7:57Dan Pashman?

  Can we talk for a minute about Coleman's English mustard?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Funny you should say that. I'm gonna move away from the mic, just warning people.

• 8:03Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:05Dan Pashman?

  She's opening her purse. Nigella is opening her purse.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  In here.

• 8:09Dan Pashman?

  The plastic bag is coming out and I see a tube of some kind.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  You can see a tube of Coleman's English mustard.

• 8:17Dan Pashman?

  Oh my god.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  And a pinch pot of Maldon salt.

• 8:21Dan Pashman?

  Oh my god, that... You're the British Beyonce.

• 8:27Dan Pashman?

  Like, she has hot sauce in her bag, you have Coleman's mustard. And we should describe to people, like, it's got a specific type of heat, almost like a horseradish-y back of the throat spice.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  It has. It's a bit like the British wasabi.

• 8:38Dan Pashman?

  Yes, that's a good way to describe it. And, and, um, I also love the mouthfeel of it. It's got a little bit of a slight texture, almost like a hoisin or a gochujang sauce. It's like a little bit... It's got a flowery kind of thickness to it that I find so pleasant.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  But of course, you know, that traditionally, it came as a powder. And you would mix it up. And people would mix it up to the texture they liked.

• 9:03Dan Pashman?

  Oh, interesting.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  My late mother-in-law always used to make it too runny for me, and I hated that. I remember that was a real problem. And that always, you know, makes one think that so much of what one likes or dislikes in food is about texture. And if you have children, so you know that, when they dislike eating something, it's nearly always the texture they dislike rather more than the taste.

• 9:20Dan Pashman?

  I just recently... I'll be honest, Nigella. I... It took me a long time to really develop a taste for some of the more sort of acidic, bitter, mustardy types of flavors, spicy foods and all. I only just acquired a taste for mustard in my late 30s.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  But the mustard here is, um, vinegary rather than hot.

• 9:41Dan Pashman?

  Right, that's true. But now I'm getting into all the mustards. And I was at a burger place, uh...

• 9:45Speaker 01

  All the mustards.

• 9:46Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, all the mustards.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  That's such a great title, something.

• 9:50Dan Pashman?

  Um, here's what happened with me with Coleman's is that... So I got into it. I bought a little jar. I kept it at home. Now, I have two little kids, and my wife and my mother-in-law both make fantastic meatloaf. And since, especially since my kids came into the picture, there's been a lot of meatloaf in our house. Because it's easy, it's quick, and the kids like it with ketchup.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:10Dan Pashman?

  And I used to love it, but after many years of many meatloafs, I got burnt out. And I made it, I declared, I said, "No more." You know, "You can keep making it for the kids, but I'm just gonna, I'll fix myself something else."

• 10:23Dan Pashman?

  Coleman's reinvigorated meatloaf for me.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  That is fabulous. I mean, I say I feel very proud as a British person to hear this.

• 10:31Dan Pashman?

  What are some of your go to like, like what's something that's going to be served to you in a restaurant? You know, you're going to be going in your purse to get out that Coleman's.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  I feel, you know what? I'm a bit uncomfortable about doing it in restaurants. I think it's a bit rude, but I'm afraid to say, I, I, I think for me it's like ketchup. So I kind of want it with everything. I had, um, I roast chicken last night with, you know, um, black truffles in it. And it was only by huge effort of will that I didn't, I mean, if I, I had my, I had the mustard. Actually, I didn't know it was in my purse. I thought I'd left it upstairs and so I just thought, oh no, I haven't got my mustard. And I know, um, I could, I, should I go into a different room and get it? But, um, well, never mind. Um, and I didn't, but anyway, it would have been rude to the chef. But so I kind of want it with everything.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  I like adding it to a plate of greens as well. Uh, and we, we get it in glass jars, you know, at home and I will always keep that and make dressing with the, you know, the bottom part of it.

• 11:33Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  I like, I, it's bad. I do like it with almost everything.

• 11:37Dan Pashman?

  Why is that bad?

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Because I think, I mean, in a way you're introducing too much of the same note.

• 11:43Dan Pashman?

  And we should describe.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  I haven't ever yet eaten it straight from the tube. It might come to that.

• 11:49Dan Pashman?

  Today could be the day.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  It could be. I mean, I, I'd be perfectly happy to have it on a bit of bread.

• 11:54Dan Pashman?

  Right. Um, you have a recipe for emergency brownies.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  I do.

• 11:58Dan Pashman?

  Which I, I is brilliant. And it, the whole recipe just makes two brownies and you write.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Or four, if you're a restrained person, which I'm not.

• 12:09Dan Pashman?

  And you write that these, this brownie recipe, emergency brownies is for those times you urgently need a brownie, but don't want to make, or rather can't justify making a whole batch.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:21Dan Pashman?

  Can you tell me about a time in, recently in your life where you felt that you urgently needed a brownie?

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Yes, I can. I was watching a film and I suddenly thought, do you know, I am enjoying myself and it's very nice to be here on the sofa, watching a film. I got a cup of tea nearby. There is something missing in my life. And I can't, I can't, it's distracting me. And what I needed was a brownie. I was watching with my son and I made the brownies. And then I had some, we had some slightly too soon, straight from, you know, straight out of the oven. When it was still more or less like, it was more like pudding.

• 12:57Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  And you could eat with a teaspoon, that was good. And then I left it and I had the remaining bit. Um, with a bit of vanilla ice cream.

• 13:06Dan Pashman?

  Sounds really good.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  It was perfect. My evening was complete.

• 13:10Dan Pashman?

  What movie was it?

• 13:12Speaker 01

  It was a film, I'm trying to remember the title of it. It was a, I'm trying to, trying to, trying to remember. See, I can remember the food and not the film. Is this a bad thing, do you think?

• 13:24Dan Pashman?

  No, I think it gives you credibility.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  I think it was some sort of, it was a film that seemed to involve too much plot. That's all I do remember. Too much plot. I got distracted by the brownie. Now I can't remember the film. I will remember, of course, by the end of the interview.

• 13:39Dan Pashman?

  Right. Just blurt it out at any time.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  I will. I won't even say why. Yeah.

• 13:44Dan Pashman?

  Do you ever find the intense desire to have an emergency brownie at a time when you're feeling sort of stressed out about something? Or down about something?

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Um, no, I, you know, I, one of the things I don't think I do is use food.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  In that that's what's traditionally associated with, you know, comfort eating. I don't, I think that food that you eat like that makes, doesn't help you feel better. And doesn't make you enjoy the food more. I rather think I have an intense need for chocolate and I want that, or I feel I need salt. Sometimes I have to have salted chocolate.

• 14:23Dan Pashman?

  Oh.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  For that very reason, which I tell myself is medical.

• 14:27Dan Pashman?

  It sounds very medicinal to me.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Well, it is because I feel that I obviously need the magnesium in chocolate and.

• 14:33Dan Pashman?

  And there's no other way to get it.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  And I slightly have, and I have slightly low blood pressure, so I need the salt.

• 14:37Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  So all in all, and I feel it does me a lot of good and I feel much better for it. So in that sense, yes, I will do it to make myself feel better. If I'm tired, I will. But I don't feel I'm trying to smother a feeling. I'm trying to heighten some pleasure.

• 14:53Dan Pashman?

  You're, you're more about chasing highs than escaping lows.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Well, I think eating it, eating itself and cooking is a very good way of escaping lows. Cooking is a, is probably even a better route to, to escaping lows. But I don't know how possible it ever is that to do that.

• 15:13Dan Pashman?

  Why, why do you think cooking is good for that?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Because I think it is absorbing in your, your intelligence to some extent has to reside in your fingertips and your sense of smell and your sense of taste. And you're, you're not leading from a thought process.

• 15:36Dan Pashman?

  You're not getting stuck in your head.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  No, you're not. You're, you're actually freeing, you're, you're calming your head.

• 15:42Dan Pashman?

  By focusing on something tangible in front of you.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yes, but it's, but it's important that what you're focusing on is quite simple. If I were trying to do something, I can't even imagine, you know, if I were trying to spin sugar, for example, or anything that required a sugar thermometer, something really hideous like that, then I would not be escaping my head and I would be in a state of, you know, existential dread.

• 16:08Dan Pashman?

  I know your mom's family owned a food and catering business. What did she teach you about food?

• 16:14Speaker 01

  But I, it was before my time, really. My mother was, my mother, uh, she taught me everything about food, but it was very not related to anything business like.

• 16:25Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  She was a very instinctive cook and I often feel I cook very much like my mother. And by that, I don't mean I cook the same food, but in her way, which is slightly impatient, rather spontaneous, not enormously, um, rule-bound. Uh, and that's quite, for me, a very handy way of cooking is it means I could come up with food fast.

• 16:48Dan Pashman?

  What else about her approach to food do you feel you've carried on?

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Well, I think that a dislike of pretentious food and she had a very good sense of taste with spice and I think, how do I say this without, it sounds a bit pretentious, layering of flavor.

• 17:08Dan Pashman?

  I know you said that your mom struggled with depression and you've also said that, you said that you cook in similar ways that she did. How did food play into her struggles with depression?

• 17:18Speaker 01

  I don't think they played a huge part, except that she, in terms of cooking, but certainly she didn't have a very healthy relationship with eating. And from that, I, you know, resolved that that was, you know, I would absolutely not succumb to this, you know, very disabling belief that the thinner you are and the less you eat, you know, the better it is. My mother came from a different, a different time and she also died very young, so that certain things weren't developed and she didn't, she didn't have a chance to grow and change in certain ways, which maybe she would have as well.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  But I, but I think that, you know, while we're very influenced by our mothers, we also learn how not to be as well. And, you know, I say that in a sort of a loving, respectful way, but that's been important to me, you know, feeling that women have permission to eat and don't have to conform to a particular way of being.

• 18:35Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Nigella teaches me something about hosting a show and she talks about the criticism she gets that no man would receive. Stick around.

• 18:50Speaker 02

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• 20:25Dan Pashman?

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• 20:59Dan Pashman?

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• 21:42Dan Pashman?

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• 22:08Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. You ever like go to our show page in your podcasting app and you're scrolling back and you're like, oh, that, that seems like a good episode. Why, how did I miss that? Well, you, you missed it because you're probably not following our show in your podcasting app. And it's really important that you do. So please do this right now. Go to our show page in your podcasting app of choice. If it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify, you click Follow. Other apps, maybe it's a plus sign or a heart or a favorite or the word subscribe, whatever it is in your app. It's really important that you click it. That way you won't miss great episodes. Super quick and easy. You can do it right now. Thank you so much. Now, back to my conversation with Nigella Lawson.

• 22:49Dan Pashman?

  There are a couple of reasons why I think she's so good at what she does. First, she's a great communicator on TV. When Nigella's in her kitchen showing you how to make ramen, you feel like she's talking just to you.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  I make my own. And I start with the Japanese broth dashi that launched a thousand noodle soups. But I just as often use vegetable stock. And what goes in is all important. Some dried shiitake mushrooms already sliced. And we are firmly back in the universe of umami now.

• 23:23Dan Pashman?

  The second thing Nigella's so good at is this. All the very best cooking shows on TV, and YouTube and Instagram for that matter, have one thing in common. They nail the balance between accessibility and aspiration. If you're gonna get really excited about a cooking demo you're watching, it has to feel like something you might actually do. But it also has to feel like the person doing it has a life that's just a little bit better than yours. Like, they have a little more time, or money, or expertise. Their kitchen's a little nicer than yours. They're living a life you aspire to. And I think we all make this connection in our minds, like, if I cook this dish for one brief glorious moment, that will be my life. Accessibility and aspiration. Yeah, I know a lot of people do it.

• 24:07Dan Pashman?

  But nobody does it better than Nigella. In her recipes, she's famous for her sheet pan dinners, or tray bakes. One recipe from a few years ago is a chicken and pea tray bake. You take chicken, frozen peas, and just a few other ingredients: garlic, leeks, vermouth. Mix them together, dump them on a baking sheet, and cook the whole thing. It's so simple. But her life, as it's depicted on TV, feels a little more out of reach. She waters the flowers and herbs in her perfect garden, then makes herself a perfect snack before sitting down to work in her gorgeous home. She walks her daughter to her private school in London and stops on the way for a fresh baguette as the sun shines down on them. As I said to Nigella, on TV, her life feels very aspirational.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Yes, of course, it doesn't, it doesn't to us as we're filming it. A television series is such an intense snapshot that it looks like the whole of life is like that and the, you know, music comes in as you lay the table and there's a close up of a glass and there's a twinkly light behind the glass and it's, it's, you know, an enchanted landscape. And I have, you know, a wonderful cameraman and director and we're all concerned with making everything beautiful. I really take a lot of care and have, take a lot of pleasure in choosing what bowl I'm going to use. I mean, we can spend hours fiddling about with, you know, a pile of plates and, you

• 25:32Speaker 01

  know, back of, back of shot, which only someone with a very, very huge television screen would ever see. That's what makes the difference. But, you know, when I do a book, I mean, I, there's no, I'm obsessed about the very detail. I might sometimes say on a proof, you know, I think, I don't want the print to be black, I want it to be charcoal and, you know, the font, we change it a little bit. That obsessing over detail is part of the pleasure, but part of what makes things feel right at the end.

• 26:03Dan Pashman?

  So I, I do some work hosting TV, you know, food TV type shows. Certainly I wouldn't pretend to have attained your level of success at it, but, you know, when I first started out, the way that I started to think about my sort of performance, because let's face it, it's a performance, is I'm sort of creating this TV persona. And that persona is rooted in something real, so a real part of myself. But in order to kind of make a persona that's going to make for good television, you have to kind of like pick and choose a couple of elements of your personality and kind of magnify those.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  But the camera magnifies of its own accord and the editing process magnifies. So in a sense, I don't know that you make a choice yourself which ones to magnify. You probably went on TV, found that certain things were said to be there and they seemed to be the parts of your personality which, without realising it, came to the fore. How would you say your personality is and which, what's magnified?

• 27:01Dan Pashman?

  Well, I probably, I kind of try to focus on this sort of high energy.

• 27:09Dan Pashman?

  Kind of masculine jokester.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 27:13Dan Pashman?

  That's, you know, uh.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  But you see, I think that's not just a thing of television. That's in a way, sounds to me, the sort of way one presents oneself when slightly nervous or anxious. And so that's, you present a version of yourself. And I'm the same way as I think I, when I get, I must, in a, in a strange way, I mean, I was always a very shy child. And there is a moment at which when you're on camera, when you have to overcome, and I have to overcome an intrinsic shyness, and I think I develop a certain archness. And that's true of my personality. I have got a slightly camp personality. But nevertheless, that archness is also, um, because maybe I'm slightly embarrassed

• 27:58Speaker 01

  because in the way I was brought up, going on television is a sort of like, is it like showing off and is showing off bad? So I'm slightly embarrassed and therefore I'm slightly arch. So that comes across, but it's not because I'm trying to present that, but that is the way that I might be as well if I were surrounded by people and having to propel myself through a room. So, and I, so I think that the ways one magnifies one's personality, or maybe even distorts, um, also comment to a lot of us in social situations as well as being on television. It's a coping mechanism rather more, rather more than sheer performance. Does that make sense?

• 28:36Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. I think that's a really interesting way to look at it. You know, I think, I think you're probably right that, that, you know, the, when you're feeling less confident, sometimes the best thing to do is to try to play the character of someone who has a lot of confidence. So in my case, that sort of means like puffing on my chest and being like, hey, everyone, today we're making nachos. And for you, it might be like to raise an eyebrow and be like, I'm in control here. I know what's going on. I, I, I'm playing with you, even, even if that's not how you're feeling on the inside.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Yes, or when I think, yes, please share the joke with me now, please. You know, that sort of thing. And I also feel that you're, you, you're trying to make the viewer feel comfortable as well. You're trying to bring the viewer in. So I suppose, I mean, I'm feel that I'm, I've got quite an intense, uh, way of talking to people. And how that might come across in, in real life probably is seen differently on television.

• 29:32Dan Pashman?

  Nigella's particular way of connecting with viewers has been criticized at times for being overly sensual, even sexual. People comment on the way she licks a spoon. They're convinced she's using innuendo every chance she gets. She's done more than one segment about breakfast or late-night snacks in a silk robe. Then there's the music.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  And it boils. And you can see the mushrooms are beginning to plump up, but they're going to plump up even more and use their flavorment of the broth. So turn it down, lid on, so everything stays trapped in the pan. And I've got some work to do, very hard work.

• 30:11Dan Pashman?

  Nigella says this is really just that arch or camp part of her personality coming through.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Many people, in very, in good faith, misconstrue what I'm saying. And they think I'm trying to do a sort of come onto the camera. And I really am not. I feel I have a huge raft of female viewers, you know, who watch the show, who completely get me. And so that's, that's fine. What men project onto me, you know, I can't help, I'm not, you know, I, I, I can't be held accountable for that. Some, it's, it's.

• 30:44Dan Pashman?

  Wait, Nigella, you mean that's not your fault?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  But, but, you know, at some stage, you know, I have to say, well, you know, people's perception of me is, you know, is their perception of me, and I, I can't argue with it. I can say, you know, what my, if my intention, my intention may have been different. And to an analyst, that wouldn't be much of an excuse anyway. But nevertheless, I, I, I feel I can't trouble myself with it too much. But I, but I obviously must come across as more flirtatious than I intend.

• 31:18Dan Pashman?

  But there are a lot of men who go on TV and are very flirtatious or sensual in their own ways on television. And I don't feel like it gets the same amount of attention. Do you feel that there's a double standard? I mean, do you feel that men who are flirtatious on camera are subject to the same level of scrutiny?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  I mean, I think there's always a very different way that, you know, women and men are talked about. I suspect the only way that changes is if men are looked at in the same way. I don't ever think things change by getting better. It just, you know, things get worse for everyone. She said cheerfully.

• 31:54Dan Pashman?

  And this question that has come up at various points in your career, I'm curious, has the Me Too movement changed the way you think about this issue at all?

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Look, I think that there are many good things about the Me Too movement, and not least is the fact that women can talk about their experiences in the world. But in terms of how I work, which is in a way, in a realm in which I'm the boss, it's a different... I'm not working in a male environment. But I think now, what I would say is television is image-led, and that's not necessarily a good thing. There's a lot of focus on what someone looks like on television, and you just can't fight that.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  And I think that all one can do is refuse to let oneself ever be treated as a commodity.

• 33:04Dan Pashman?

  That's Nigella Lawson. Her latest cookbook is Cook, Eat, Repeat: Ingredients, Recipes, and Stories. This show was originally produced by Anne Sannion and me and edited by Peter Clowney. It was mixed by John Delore. This update was produced by Emma Morgenstern and mixed by Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. This Porch was a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Eric Eddings and Colin Anderson. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 33:28Speaker 03

  And I'm Jo Franklin from London, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 33:49Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Jared O'Connell.

• 34:00Dan Pashman?

  The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the Sirius XM app? Yes, the Sirius XM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the Sirius XM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 34:37Speaker 04

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• 35:01Speaker 05

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