Don Wilson on the GPU Market's Trillion Dollar Question

When we spoke to Don Wilson, founder and CEO of DRW, in Chicago last year, he told us he wanted to build a market for GPUs that would eventually be bigger than oil. A year's time in the age of AI is an eternity, and so for the first episode of this year's Chicago live show - recorded at City Winery - Wilson joins us on stage again to talk about what's changed and what hasn't in his quest to help build this market. We get his take on the recent tech selloff, including credit concerns around neocloud CoreWeave. And we also discuss how DRW is developing a “crunch spread” (the GPU version of a crack spread), the latest on his plans to launch GPU futures, and the possibility of token futures too. Read more: Jump, DRW Bet on New Compute Market as AI Boom Faces Scrutiny https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-10-16/jump-drw-bet-on-new-compute-market-as-ai-boom-faces-scrutiny?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article Only Bloomberg.com subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox, plus unlimited access to the site and app. bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tracy Alloway?

  There are some market stories where you want every detail. Joe and I have made quite a few podcasts on that basis. But sometimes you've only got 10 minutes and just want to know what's moving markets fast. That's the Barclays Brief Podcast. Every week, experts from Barclays Markets and Research get you up to speed on what's happening and what to watch next. Concise, focused, and brief. Search Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 1:39Speaker 01

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• 1:55Joe Weisenthal?

  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

• 2:00Tracy Alloway?

  And I'm Tracy Alloway.

• 2:01Joe Weisenthal?

  Tracy, we're here in Chicago, second year in a row that we've done a live show here in a great city for us.

• 2:07Tracy Alloway?

  That's right. And we're going to be talking to someone who we spoke with last year, but a lot has changed in 12 months. So this is someone who is trying to build a market for compute, right?

• 2:17Joe Weisenthal?

  Right. So we're going to be speaking with Don Wilson. He is the founder and CEO of DRW. He is really at the forefront of this effort to build futures markets for things like GPUs and so forth. So check out the conversation. We talked to you, Don, basically exactly a year ago, last time we were here. We talked about things like GPU futures. But in like AI time, it might as well have been 10 years ago because so much has changed. We want to talk GPU market structure, all that stuff. The last couple of days have actually been kind of interesting in the AI trade world. Everyone's watching CoreWeave. Everyone's watching CoreWeave bonds. There was an Anthropic investor meeting before the IPO, a little jitters.

• 2:58Joe Weisenthal?

  Maybe their, you know, maybe their revenue only grew up, whatever, 50% versus 51%. I don't know the exact numbers. Give us your read right now. Like, is there a little slowdown happening in AI? Like, are we shifting into a lower gear? Is there anything in the trajectory that's changed?

• 3:15Speaker 04

  Any new thing that's growing this fast is not going to grow at a constant rate. It's not going to grow at a, you know, the first derivative isn't going to be constant. The second derivative isn't going to be constant. So to me, this is just kind of expected volatility. I don't know. Maybe people went on vacation in August, so they didn't consume as many Anthropic tokens.

• 3:41Joe Weisenthal?

  But you're not reading anything more into it than that?

• 3:43Speaker 04

  I'm not.

• 3:44Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay.

• 3:45Tracy Alloway?

  Wait, so with something like CoreWeave, a big part of what you're doing with compute exchange and silicon data is this idea that if you create a market for compute, then cloud companies can hedge their future revenue streams and the cost of capital can come down. In a week like this, when you see the yield on a CoreWeave bond at 15%, what does that tell you? Is the suggestion that like, well, if compute futures were up and running, all of CoreWeave's problems will be solved? Like, what do we keep working on?

• 4:14Speaker 04

  I do think that it's highlighting the massive need for risk management products. And so, you know, think about if you're a NeoCloud and, you know, you sign contracts with the most creditworthy companies in the world, then you're fine, right? But there are a lot of other consumers of GPUs that are not the most creditworthy companies in the world. And if you're a NeoCloud, you want to be able to sell to them. And so I think what the market's saying is if you're selling on-demand compute or you're selling to less creditworthy entities, then your cost of capital is just going to be higher.

• 4:57Speaker 04

  Now, imagine, once GPU futures exist, you can, as a NeoCloud, buy the GPUs, deploy them in your data center, sell a strip of GPU futures, and then just sell on-demand compute if you want. Or sell, you know, six-month contracts to less creditworthy companies that can post a big percentage of the contract value upfront. And the market is going to, you know, reward companies that do that, that basically just have on a giant basis trade heavily. Their cost of capital is going to be much lower.

• 5:36Joe Weisenthal?

  Terry mentioned, okay, the GPU futures don't exist yet, and there's some message from the White House, like national security, et cetera. And he's like, I don't get it. Do you get it? Can you tell us something about why these products don't exist yet? Maybe what the regulatory hesitancy is about the listing?

• 5:56Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah. And just remind us what the state is of regulatory.

• 5:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. So right now, there's a comment period that's open. The CFTC extended it.

• 6:07Speaker 04

  You know, if they don't do anything, then, you know, the futures can get listed November 9th. Now, conveniently, November 9th is after November 3rd. And so, you know, maybe some people in Washington will be more comfortable with the compute futures launching. I don't know. I can't, I can't explain what the concern is. I've heard all sorts of different theories.

• 6:34Speaker 04

  You know, one theory is that some of the indices are not very robust.

• 6:39Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, I would, okay. So I'm actually very curious about this, the robustness of the indices. Because a lot of GPUs are sold via bilateral offtake agreements, right? So it's like Anthropic has some deal with SpaceX, right? To use their compute. We don't really know the price of that. Why should anyone feel confident then, when they look at an index of GPU prices, that like it actually represents something resembling the state of the market?

• 7:09Speaker 04

  Here, listen, I think it's buyer beware. Learn about the index that you're trading futures on. You know, Silicon Data, that team has done an amazing job of collecting massive amounts of data from, you know, and it's focused on on-demand compute from NeoClouds. You know, there are a lot of NeoClouds. There are very few hyperscalers. So their index is focused on NeoClouds, of which there are many. And there is a lot of transparency about on-demand compute. And, you know, they've done a very good job to create an index that, you know, will be IASCO compliant.

• 7:54Speaker 04

  That's the, that's the benchmark. Some of the other providers, I don't think have ever heard the word, the phrase IASCO compliant.

• 8:02Joe Weisenthal?

  What's IASCO? Sorry.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  So IASCO is the, I don't know. It's the kind of group of international regulators that I think in 2013 came up with a best practices approach for indices.

• 8:18Joe Weisenthal?

  Oh, we should do an IASCO episode one day.

• 8:22Tracy Alloway?

  Now that you've been working on the futures contract for a while, can you maybe tell us what you've learned about, I guess, the pricing trajectory for GPUs over time? Because this is one of the concerns, right? You can say you're bullish on the compute market overall, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're bullish on the value of a single GPU. It can depreciate over time. Maybe it gets more efficient and people move on to new things.

• 8:46Speaker 04

  So that is the trillion-dollar question. That is why these.

• 8:51Tracy Alloway?

  I'm glad I asked it.

• 8:54Speaker 04

  And that is why these futures need to exist. Because, you know, nobody knows what the value of a B200 will be four years from now, five years from now. And, you know, and so by introducing futures contracts that trade, you know, way out, I think initially the CME's futures contracts are going to go out three years. And, you know, as they become more liquid, they'll go out more.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  But, you know, that enables people to hedge that. Back in November of, you know, almost a year ago, the price of H100s, the hourly on-demand price, had just been declining, declining, declining. And everybody was saying, why do you need GPU futures? These things just go down. And then, you know, right around Thanksgiving, they turned around and kind of went up and to the right. And, and what happened? You know, it was Anthropic's newest model came out, which was a massive step up in usefulness.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  And all of a sudden, there was a ton of demand for inference. And, you know, more recently, we've seen, you know, looking at B200, B2300, and H100 prices, another surge upward in price. And, and by the way, at the same time that the Silicon Data token index price has plummeted.

• 10:31Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, it's interesting.

• 10:33Speaker 04

  And, and so, yeah, I mean, these things are volatile. They can go up, they can go down, and, and a hedging instrument is badly needed.

• 10:57Tracy Alloway?

  There are some market stories where you want every detail. Joe and I have made quite a few podcasts on that basis. But sometimes you've only got 10 minutes and just want to know what's moving markets fast. That's the Barclays Brief Podcast. Every week, experts from Barclays Markets and Research get you up to speed on what's happening and what to watch next. Concise, focused, and brief. Search Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts.

• 11:22Speaker 01

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• 12:04Speaker 05

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• 12:34Tracy Alloway?

  Running a small business takes everything you've got. But with Chase for Business, you're not alone. They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than 7 million customers. With a deep understanding of your day-to-day needs, they provide products and guidance built to help you thrive. Right now, earn $500 when you open a new Chase Business Complete Checking account for new business checking customers with qualifying activities. Offer expires January 21, 2027. Chase Business Complete Checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits, and manage your finances with confidence. Learn more at chase.com/podcastbizoffer. Chase, make more of what's yours. Fees may apply to Chase Business Complete Checking accounts.

• 13:17Tracy Alloway?

  The $500 offer is available for new business checking accounts with qualifying activities through 1/21/2027. Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met. Additional restrictions may apply. Please speak with a business banker for more information. J.P. Morgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Just as a hypothetical, let's say GPUs depreciate over time and there's more demand, but in general, the value goes down, which is something we've seen in a lot of commodity markets, right? In that case, does having a market where you're able to hedge your future GPU revenue streams, does that just enable people to, I guess, borrow more and overbuild versus genuinely reduce risk?

• 14:02Tracy Alloway?

  You're just allowing people to borrow against the same risk ostensibly with a hedge, but the underlying isn't actually moving in your favor. Does that make sense?

• 14:10Speaker 04

  No.

• 14:11Tracy Alloway?

  No.

• 14:11Speaker 04

  I mean, here, the reason it doesn't make sense is that for a futures contract to exist, there has to be a willing buyer and a willing seller, right? So, so your hypothesis would work if they could just go and sell futures contracts at some price that was made up, maybe too high, and, and there was kind of infinite demand for that. Okay, well, sure, but, but there has to be a rational buyer on the other side. And so I think what we'll see is that those forward contracts are going to be, are in fact, going to be at lower prices, just because there's so much hedging demand to sell in the forward space. And there will need to be, you know, investors who want to generate a, a return by buying those futures contracts.

• 14:57Joe Weisenthal?

  What is the, if we cast out a few years, what is the sort of ecosystem of clouds and inference, inference providers that needs to exist for this to be a rich market? Because like, if the, if the future of AI is just, let's say the future of AI were just Anthropic and OpenAI, and the future of cloud were just Meta, Alphabet, and Amazon, there wouldn't need to be a futures market. It would just be all bilateral agreements, offtake agreements, et cetera.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 15:31Joe Weisenthal?

  So how much like, how fat of a tail of non-open AI and Anthropic inference do we need such that this is a useful vault market that is, cannot just be solved by bilateral agreements?

• 15:45Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I think we're already there. I mean, look at the growing use of open source models. I mean, it's exploded and you're seeing companies with, you know, many billion-dollar valuations that have just been created to put open source models on GPUs and sell the tokens.

• 16:06Joe Weisenthal?

  Right.

• 16:06Speaker 04

  You know, like fireworks and Together. And, and so we already have a really rich ecosystem.

• 16:15Joe Weisenthal?

  Is it rich enough yet?

• 16:16Speaker 04

  For sure.

• 16:17Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay, interesting.

• 16:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:19Tracy Alloway?

  Should we talk about perpetuals?

• 16:21Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah. Can I ask another?

• 16:23Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah, go for it.

• 16:24Joe Weisenthal?

  Can I ask, on GPU futures? So one of the other things that people say, the skeptics, is they say GPU, GPU or compute is not homogeneous enough for a futures market. And there's a few different things. They say like, there is different software arrays, and that could significantly change the value. There's also the fact that there's like, at least in the inference part of AI, there's a lot of other players who want AMD and Cerberus and Etched and all these other Tranium and whatever the Microsoft one was, and TPUs, et cetera. And this is just way too diverse of a market to really be captured in an index.

• 17:09Joe Weisenthal?

  How confident are you that either the market is going to be homogeneous enough for futures or that there will be enough sophistication about the sort of basis between the H100 index versus something similar such that this market could serve a diverse provider base?

• 17:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, first of all, the amount of money going into, you know, just H100s or just B200s is large enough to support a single futures.

• 17:37Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  Market. Now, in addition to that, these other things are very correlated. And so, you know, people will be able to trade a basis on these things versus whatever it is. And, and, you know, maybe, obviously, you know, these are going to be off of kind of the, the baseline standard configuration, whatever. But, and so maybe somebody's planning on doing a training run and maybe a giant cluster. Well, that's going to bear a premium, of course. But, but, you know, if the demand for inference goes up massively, then guess what? That training run's also going to be more expensive. So it's just a basis between the things. That's one thing.

• 18:19Speaker 04

  The other thing is that eventually, and, you know, we may be getting close, you'll be able to trade futures contracts on the output, on the tokens themselves.

• 18:32Joe Weisenthal?

  Oh, token futures.

• 18:33Speaker 04

  Token futures.

• 18:34Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay.

• 18:35Speaker 04

  And, and so, you know, again, there's of course a diverse number of tokens and people will put up the same objections, but, but I think that over time, that's going to be possible. And by the way, that will introduce a really interesting possibility, which is, now think about if you go and rent GPUs, you pay the on-demand price, and then you load up an open source model and you start selling tokens through OpenRouter or something.

• 19:05Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 04

  Right? Well, can you do that profitably or not? Well, that profit margin that you can generate is akin to, you know, what an oil refinery does, right? And, or what a soybean crush plant does. And, you know.

• 19:25Joe Weisenthal?

  You're going to have a crack spread.

• 19:26Speaker 04

  So, so in oil, we call it a crack spread. In soybeans, we call it a crush spread. So you hear, you heard it here first. At, at, at DRW, we call this the crunch spread.

• 19:38Joe Weisenthal?

  That's great.

• 19:39Tracy Alloway?

  Wait, is this token futures or something you're actively working on, it sounds like?

• 19:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 19:44Tracy Alloway?

  Okay. And what sort of stage would you say you're at?

• 19:47Speaker 04

  I mean, it's, you know, it's the thought stage, but, but, but, but, I mean, here, to be fair, the, the, you know, the Silicon Data Token Index, you know, is providing some, some pretty interesting data and is widely discussed. So, you know, that's a start.

• 20:07Tracy Alloway?

  And so just going back to GPU futures for a second. So every time a new chip comes out, that needs to be a separate contract and a new pool of liquidity. Is that right? Is that how you're thinking of it?

• 20:19Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 20:19Tracy Alloway?

  Okay. And how do you, I mean, it seems kind of challenging. You have to like, keep up with the technological cycle, which is very rapid.

• 20:28Speaker 04

  It's rapid, but not that rapid, right? And, and you're probably not going to launch a futures contract for every single one. You're going to launch futures contracts for the ones that are the major ones. And, you know, but that's okay. I mean, there are different, you know, think about how many electricity contracts there are for every little node and, I mean, you know, thousands of them.

• 20:51Joe Weisenthal?

  There's a lot of oil contracts too. We just usually only talk about two of them typically.

• 20:55Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 20:56Joe Weisenthal?

  Just out of curiosity, and this is actually sort of separate from the futures conversation, but I guess like, as a technologist with multiple businesses, et cetera, are you, how assailable is Nvidia's dominance in the, like, what's your read on that? Because this is a constant question, whether any of these other chipmakers can actually eat into Nvidia's position. What's your take there?

• 21:20Speaker 04

  Sure. I, I think that the space is going to continue to grow. And I can't, it's unlikely that Nvidia will be able to maintain the market share that they have maintained, but I'm pretty confident that Nvidia's, that Nvidia will continue to, continue to grow as a company.

• 21:55Speaker 01

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• 23:07Tracy Alloway?

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• 23:49Tracy Alloway?

  The $500 offer is available for new business checking accounts with qualifying activities through 1/21/2027. Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met. Additional restrictions may apply. Please speak with a business banker for more information. J.P. Morgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC.

• 24:07Speaker 02

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• 25:05Tracy Alloway?

  You know, last year, when we spoke, we were talking about AI use in general at DRW. And I think you said people were using agents to sort of debate investment theories or risk allocation and things like that. But you weren't using AI to actually deploy risk at that time. Joe mentioned that things change very, very fast in the world of AI. 12 months later, has that changed? What's AI doing for you now?

• 25:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, there's definitely more adoption. There's more frontline, frontline adoption, for sure.

• 25:36Tracy Alloway?

  Has your token budget gone up?

• 25:37Speaker 04

  The, the token budget is, goes up. Yes, it goes up. The token use is like this exponential chart. It's pretty interesting.

• 25:46Joe Weisenthal?

  Do you have, there's another question, like, across your businesses, have you figured out optimal internal token allocation? We ask this to a lot of executives. And at least up until recent, they're like, we're just still trying to figure this out. But you must have everyone, of course, everyone wants more. I assume everyone always wants the frontier token cost. Have you solved the question of, like, internal token allocation yet?

• 26:10Speaker 04

  Well, here, I mean, I think the most important thing is to be thoughtful about how you route the, the inference requests. And, and not every inference request needs to go to a frontier model. And, and so, you know, that's the thing that we're trying to optimize for, is minimize token spend by, by optimally routing inference requests.

• 26:35Tracy Alloway?

  Now, shall we ask about perpetuals? Okay, perps, go.

• 26:39Joe Weisenthal?

  What is Terry, no, what is Terry, why is Terry, why is Terry wrong about perps?

• 26:44Speaker 04

  I mean, listen, here, perps, in my view, are

• 26:50Tracy Alloway?

  Terry's in the audience, by the way. But you're also his client, so.

• 26:54Speaker 04

  I, I know, and Terry and I have, you know, enjoy talking about this. You know, my view is that perps serve a useful economic purpose. They are futures contracts. And, I mean, here, I'll give you a couple of examples. The, you know, a lot of people like to buy the crude oil ETF. And the crude oil ETF generally, you know, at one point, it was always in the front month future, and it broadcast to the world exactly what day it would roll from that futures to the next futures contract. And, I don't know, there was probably a little bit of slippage in that, a little bit of inefficiency. Now they've kind of like, now they do it over a window, and

• 27:38Speaker 04

  they hold the, you know, first three contracts and whatever they, you know, but there's still a lot of slippage. Now, imagine a perp that is tied to, let's say, the Brent index, okay? And, and an ETF that just buys that, that perp. I mean, I think that that would be a much more efficient experience for the ETF. And, and of course, that doesn't mean that that's a useful hedging instrument for an oil producer. It's not. An oil producer needs to hedge way out the curve. Great, you can have monthly and quarterly futures and perps side by side.

• 28:20Speaker 04

  They actually augment one another, and, and that's a good thing. Here's, here's another example.

• 28:27Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  Suppose you are a retail investor, and you own a hard-to-borrow stock. And, you know, that all the hedge funds want to short, they're paying 100% annualized to short this stock. You know, if you have that stock in your retail account, you probably are, your broker's probably not saying to you, hey, we're, by the way, we're going to give you 300 basis points a day because you're holding this, you know, hard-to-borrow stock. Okay, that would be 1,000% annualized, but, but, you know, 30 basis points a day. But whatever. So, and, so you're not getting the benefit of owning that hard-to-borrow stock. Now, if instead, you own the perp.

• 29:10Joe Weisenthal?

  It's mechanically.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  Then mechanically, it's going to pass through. And, and so, it's a, it's a real opportunity to democratize the financial markets.

• 29:23Joe Weisenthal?

  Right, so democrat, this word democratize, I've never really liked it because it just sounds good, but I don't know what it means. But in this case, it makes sense because in this, in this case, what you're saying is there is an economic value that is not being captured currently by retail holders of certain stocks because no one's going to make the offer, but the demand would be there if they held that same exposure in a different industry.

• 29:46Speaker 04

  Correct, and the same thing for the ETF, the oil ETF, right? I mean, that's probably a retail investor that wants to have exposure of oil. Here's a more efficient way to do it.

• 29:54Tracy Alloway?

  I get that it might be more useful and economically beneficial to some, but if the regulation says that a futures contract has to have an expiration date, and these don't, why should it not?

• 30:06Speaker 04

  Where does it say that? I, I haven't read that.

• 30:08Tracy Alloway?

  Does it not?

• 30:09Speaker 04

  Not, not that I've seen.

• 30:11Joe Weisenthal?

  I don't know, so Terry's like, Terry said they're swaps, and you say they're futures. Why are they not swaps?

• 30:15Tracy Alloway?

  I feel like this should be an easily settled debate.

• 30:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay, so, so, so what's the difference? And I asked this question when Dodd-Frank was being drafted, and, and what's the difference between a future and a swap?

• 30:29Joe Weisenthal?

  I have no, I don't know.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Okay, well, the answer that I got, the answer that I got from the person drafting the legislation for Barney Frank was, "Everybody knows that. Swaps are risky." What? I'm sorry. A swap that is cleared.

• 30:48Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay.

• 30:48Speaker 04

  Has the same economic risk to society, to the holder, as a futures contract does. I mean, we've gotten like lost, we've like lost our minds with nomenclature.

• 31:04Tracy Alloway?

  Wait, can you address directly Terry's point about leverage in that case? Like, how do you manage the leverage from these?

• 31:10Speaker 04

  No, I'm sorry, again, like, like, there's this confusion, well, if it's a perp, it must have massive leverage and auto deleveraging and all these horrible things. Wrong. You can, by the way, have a quarterly futures contract with massive leverage and auto deleveraging and all these horrible things. You don't, you don't, you could list a perp with reasonable leverage and no auto deleveraging, and it would be a very useful economic instrument.

• 31:39Tracy Alloway?

  Joe, next year, we're going to cut ourselves out of this conversation entirely and just have Terry and John debate this on stage.

• 31:45Joe Weisenthal?

  It's crazy to think some of our most animated moments on the podcast would now be, what is the definition of a swap? But this is why, this is, uh, these are the conversations that we like to have. What's the, okay, when 24/7 trading inevitably arrives?

• 32:01Speaker 04

  It's already here. What are you talking about?

• 32:03Joe Weisenthal?

  That's true. It is here. You're right. Does that change people's lives? Is that annoying? Is it annoying to have to think about risk at 1:00 a.m. on a Sunday? Just from a personal life.

• 32:13Tracy Alloway?

  Won't someone think of the financial journal?

• 32:15Speaker 04

  I mean, first of all, you know, we've been trading crypto since 2014.

• 32:18Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, so you've been 24/7.

• 32:20Speaker 04

  So, so, I'm, I'm used to markets moving 24/7. I, I will tell you that our, you know, options market makers are not happy about the prospect of, you know, making sofa options markets over weekends.

• 32:37Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 32:38Speaker 04

  And, and you know what? I'm very sympathetic to that.

• 32:41Joe Weisenthal?

  But they're happening.

• 32:43Speaker 04

  You know what? It's just going to happen. We're going to have to figure out how to deal with it.

• 32:48Joe Weisenthal?

  All right. John Wilson, thank you so much for coming back to Odd Life Live. We're just going to do it again next year, the year after that, and the year after that. It's great. Thank you so much.

• 33:09Tracy Alloway?

  That was another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast, recorded live in Chicago. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

• 33:17Joe Weisenthal?

  And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armin, Dashil Bennett at Dashbot, Cale Brooks at Cale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. For more Odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg.com/oddlots for the daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all these topics 24/7 in our Discord, discord.gg/oddlots.

• 33:40Tracy Alloway?

  And if you enjoyed this conversation, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. If you're watching the video, then please like or leave a comment, or better yet, subscribe.

• 33:50Joe Weisenthal?

  Thanks for watching and listening.

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