From the Archives: Lawrence Wright

Lawrence Wright is an author, screenwriter, playwright, and a staff writer for The New Yorker magazine. He won the Pulitzer Prize for his 2006 book The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11. Most recently, filmmaker Alex Gibney directed an HBO documentary based on Wright's reporting in Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Unbelief. Much of Wright's work is about how religious belief animates personal action and political conflict. He has documented the Jonestown massacre, explored allegations of Satan worship, profiled brimstone-tinged gospel preachers, and, of course, tracked the histories of al-Qaeda and the Church of Scientology. Regarding the latter, he isn't necessarily sympathetic to the Church's claims, but he understands its appeal. "People don't go into it because it's a cult, they go into it because they're looking for something," says Wright. "It's like going into therapy; people do benefit from it." "But it's one thing to get into it, it's another thing to get out of it." Originally aired April 14, 2015 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:41Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing, my chance to talk with artists, policymakers, and performers. To hear their stories, what inspires their creations, what decisions changed their careers, what relationships influenced their work. My guest today, author Lawrence Wright, thinks a lot about religion. He wants to know why people choose one faith over another, especially when what they choose seems, quote, "absurd" or "dangerous" to an outsider. This question has led Wright to investigate some of the world's most complicated and secretive organizations, from the People's Temple in Jonestown to the Church of Scientology.

• 2:25Alec Baldwin?

  His book on Al Qaeda won the Pulitzer Prize in 2007.

• 2:30Alec Baldwin?

  Lawrence Wright has a unique firsthand experience as to the power of belief.

• 2:35Speaker 05

  I grew up in Dallas in the Methodist church and there was, despite the fact that Methodism doesn't have a reputation as being kind of a, you know, hellfire and brimstone, the first of the churches that we went to in Dallas really was that. And then we graduated to the Methodist church downtown. My dad taught Sunday School for many, many years. You know, Dallas back at that time was the most pious city in America. We had the largest Methodist Baptist, I think the largest Episcopal church and one of the largest Catholic churches in the entire country. And at the same time, we had the highest murder rate and the highest divorce rate, you know,

• 3:17Speaker 05

  all the kinds of things that go along with excessive piety.

• 3:21Alec Baldwin?

  Enforced piety.

• 3:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, so it was, and I was very pious as a teenager. I was in a group called Young Life and...

• 3:30Alec Baldwin?

  Genuinely, or you were responding to pressure?

• 3:33Speaker 05

  No, I was, I was, well, there were both of those things. It was, you know, I had moved around a lot. My dad was a banker and we moved quite a lot and it was hard for me to establish roots. So when I got to Dallas and this, you know, Young Life came along. It was a social club for me, but also it was the first time I understood the, you can bend yourself into the shape of the organization the way it wants you to be. And also, the more pious you are, sort of the higher you climb, the more important, so I got to be a part of...

• 4:07Alec Baldwin?

  The more you put it on.

• 4:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, you say those things and it's, and you want to believe them. I was not consciously trying to deceive anyone. At the same time, you know what to say.

• 4:19Alec Baldwin?

  You're heartfelt and you're genuine, but at the same time, you realize that there's a, there's an approval system here.

• 4:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I think that that experience was formative in some ways for me to be so interested in religious matters and why, you know, I, people are always, you know, reporters especially, fascinated by politics, but you can have strong political views and it doesn't affect your life at all. But if you have strong religious views, they probably dictate much of your behavior. It's puzzling to me why with most journalists, it's just embarrassing to ask about what people believe because it's not supposed to matter.

• 4:57Alec Baldwin?

  Did you leave the area to go to college?

• 4:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, I went to Tulane in New Orleans, which was a city at least like Dallas that I could find. And you could buy beer in Woolworths and you could drink at 18 and there were, you know, a lot of things.

• 5:10Alec Baldwin?

  Not very pious there in fresh quarter.

• 5:12Speaker 05

  By that time, I kind of shed that, but I was actively looking for a way to live a more bohemian life. I felt very constricted in Dallas.

• 5:21Alec Baldwin?

  Was writing something that was on your mind even at an early age?

• 5:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, I was.

• 5:26Alec Baldwin?

  Had you written in college?

• 5:27Speaker 05

  I took a creative writing class, you know, not a distinctive.

• 5:31Alec Baldwin?

  No school paper?

• 5:32Speaker 05

  No, I used to like doing that stuff, though. And then after I graduated, you know, Vietnam War was going on and I became a conscientious objector and spent two years of alternative service teaching in Cairo. And that's where I became involved for the first time with the Arab world.

• 5:51Alec Baldwin?

  And when the boy from Dallas becomes a conscientious objector, how did that go off from back home?

• 5:59Speaker 05

  You know, I, my dad was a war hero and I wanted to be like him. I was in ROTC. I expected, you know, to follow in his footsteps, but, you know, there was this parallel problem going on, which was the Vietnam War, which was despicable.

• 6:16Alec Baldwin?

  Different war.

• 6:17Speaker 05

  And it was, it was a bad war and, you know, for a person, a young man like me who wanted to serve his country, but did not want to kill people for the wrong reason or risk my life for something I didn't believe in, it just was a terrible, my father and I had horrible, horrible fights about Vietnam.

• 6:37Alec Baldwin?

  Did you have any brothers?

• 6:39Speaker 05

  No, no, I had two younger sisters.

• 6:41Alec Baldwin?

  So you were it, you were the scion?

• 6:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:45Alec Baldwin?

  Did you ever make peace with them about that?

• 6:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, I wrote a memoir about growing up in Dallas during the Kennedy assassination and in America during the Vietnam era. And during the process of doing that, I talked to my parents a lot and I let them read the manuscript and it was a very healing experience for all of us, I think.

• 7:05Alec Baldwin?

  When does writing become a career decision for you?

• 7:08Speaker 05

  When I came back from Egypt in 1971, I decided that I was gonna write an article for the New Yorker. I hadn't contacted them.

• 7:20Alec Baldwin?

  They didn't know it?

• 7:21Speaker 05

  No, they had no idea. My folks had a little lake cabin up in Quitman, Texas, in east Texas. And so my wife and I moved out there for six months while I wrote "Letter from Cairo." And there was a...

• 7:35Alec Baldwin?

  A port from Cairo.

• 7:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, so there was a RFD mail, and we had a little box out on the road where you raised a red flag. And the mailman stops, and I sent my manuscript into the New Yorker. I'm sure this isn't true, but it seemed that it came back the next day from Quitman, Texas, to Mr. Sean's desk, to back Quitman with a little rejection card in there. And that was my first attempt at becoming a writer. It would be many, many years later that I actually got a chance to write for the New Yorker.

• 8:11Alec Baldwin?

  You were in Cairo, you were married.

• 8:13Speaker 05

  You know, this is an odd story because I went in to...I had to get a job that was 50 miles from my home, and that wasn't a problem. I was so sick of America at that time, and the argument over the war was so devastating. And I just wanted to get as far away as I could. And it had to pay very little, and it had to be nominally in the service of the United States. So I...and the bedpan jobs were all taken, which normally is what a conscientious objector does, but this was during the Nixon recession, and those were all taken. So I thought I would go to the UN and get a job, and they sent me far, far away.

• 8:56Speaker 05

  And I went to the UN, and they said, "No, we don't do that, but here's a list of American institutions abroad." And I looked at them, and one of them, American University in Cairo, had an office across the street at 866 UN Plaza. And do you remember Huntington Hartford in Show Magazine? I thought you might. You know, he had a famous office. And I realized they was in the same building. I thought, I'll go over and peek into Huntington Hartford's office and then I'll go upstairs and ask for a job. So I did that. And, you know, walked in and I didn't, I knew that there'd been a war in the Middle East, but I wasn't, you know, it wasn't the war that I was focused on, you know, and, and I didn't know that we didn't have any diplomatic relations with Egypt at the time. I'm not even sure what language they spoke.

• 9:41Speaker 05

  But I walked in and thirty minutes later, they said, can you leave tonight? And I said, well, no, my girlfriend's back in Boston and I haven't told my parents what I'm doing and can you leave tomorrow? Well, yeah, I can go tomorrow.

• 9:55Alec Baldwin?

  Let me make a couple of phone calls.

• 9:58Speaker 05

  I went back and I, I told my girlfriend, now my wife, I'm going to Egypt tomorrow and I don't know where that leaves us and I'll be gone for two years. And, and then, and I called my parents from JFK the next morning and told them I was going to Cairo and I flew to Cairo and landed, you know, late at night and the next morning at nine o'clock, I taught my first class. After a couple of weeks, I was really missing Roberta. Back then, you didn't make telephone calls, you know, international calls and stuff like that.

• 10:33Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 10:34Speaker 05

  So your letters were passing and at some point, I said, you know, the terms under which we left were, you know, you can't go, you just couldn't live together in Egypt. You know, it was a very conservative society. And if I invite you to come, that means we'll get married. So, and, you know, our letters crossed in the mail. I asked her to come and she said she was coming anyway and then.

• 11:02Alec Baldwin?

  Did you name your first child Huntington?

• 11:04Speaker 05

  No, but that would have been some, then the question became where to get married? Because there was this idea that was somewhere in the back of my mind that if I got married in Egypt, under Islamic law, I could have additional three wives, which was an option I wasn't sure that I wanted to exercise, but it, you know, it could be, you know.

• 11:25Alec Baldwin?

  You could have pulled it off.

• 11:25Speaker 05

  It's a contingency. I don't think I have the management skills.

• 11:28Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah, over there, they insist you be married. You can be married as many times as you want.

• 11:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 11:32Alec Baldwin?

  But they just insist that you be married. So you're there for two years, you come back.

• 11:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 11:36Alec Baldwin?

  And then what happens?

• 11:37Speaker 05

  Then I started the long road of trying to start a career as a writer.

• 11:43Alec Baldwin?

  And you moved to where?

• 11:44Speaker 05

  The first job I got was in Nashville for the Race Relations Reporter. I was the only writer for a long time, but we would go into situations where there was racial conflict and oftentimes the local press was biased or not paying attention to it. And so it might be about the civil rights movement in the South or Indians, the Indian movement was underway at the time. School desegregation was very active. All those things I got a chance to write about. It taught me quite a lot about how to actually write an article, but it was a matter of being plunged into it.

• 12:26Alec Baldwin?

  Was there a mentor you had then?

• 12:28Speaker 05

  A very crazy editor named Jim Leeson.

• 12:32Alec Baldwin?

  In Nashville?

• 12:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, Jim was a strange man. And the whole culture was a little strange, to be honest. Jim, when I went to apply for the job, I was a pretty good tennis player and he asked about that. And so he asked if we could play tennis the next day. So I show up in my tennis studs and he goes out and plays me in his street shoes. And of course I beat him pretty soundly, but still the notion that he would play tennis in street shoes was...

• 13:07Alec Baldwin?

  He was not duck?

• 13:08Speaker 05

  He wound up firing me when I wrote a memo suggesting that we reorganized the... I probably deserved to be fired, I imagine. But it was another test to be plunged into the freelance market.

• 13:54Speaker 03

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by rising star Sienna Spiral.

• 14:13Speaker 06

  I love the sixties. I feel really jealous that I wasn't alive for it. I'd be interested, like, knowing what that was like and seeing the way culture and art has progressed today. How do you find it?

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Wait a minute, I'm really...

• 14:24Speaker 06

  I'm sorry, I have so many questions. Sorry.

• 14:27Speaker 03

  You're not nervous, are you?

• 14:28Speaker 06

  I am nervous.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  You are?

• 14:29Speaker 06

  I am. I feel, like, insecure about my experience. I know I shouldn't, but, you know, I'm 20. I haven't really lived my life yet. And then sitting in front of somebody that has lived an enormous life is intimidating. And sometimes I feel like talking about myself is just not as interesting. So that's why I feel a bit nervous. I'll try and ignore it, though.

• 14:48Speaker 03

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• 15:59Alec Baldwin?

  I first became familiar with you and your writing in the Olympia/Washington story, the piece that was entitled "Remembering Satan," which you wrote as a book as well. These were excerpts from a book. There was a two-part lengthy excerpt in the edition of The New Yorker. And I first became familiar with you, and I was just, you know, knocked out by this piece. I thought, how on earth is this possible? Was this the first such piece you wrote, the Olympia piece?

• 16:27Speaker 05

  No, I think I had written about, you know, a lot of different-- I even wrote about Satanists and, you know, people of all sorts of-- I mean, if you're a reporter and you have a passport to write about anybody, and I took full advantage of that. But that "Remembering Satan" is kind of a stereotypical type of article that I like to write about, which is, for one thing, it's a discreet world. You know, in this case, it was, you know, this world inside Olympia/Washington that had been infected by these hysterical memories of satanic ritual abuse, which never occurred. But a man was convicted of these

• 17:12Speaker 05

  crimes. He confessed to them because he remembered them. And there was, other than his memory, there was no evidence of it.

• 17:19Alec Baldwin?

  If I remember correctly, no one else was sentenced to prison?

• 17:22Speaker 05

  Only Paul went to prison.

• 17:24Alec Baldwin?

  What's his relationship with his family now, or do you even know?

• 17:28Speaker 05

  It's very broken as far-- I haven't talked to Paul in a couple of years, but, you know, he's married again, you know, he's started another life. But, you know, it's an example of how the mind can be so persuaded of, you know, a false reality that--

• 17:49Alec Baldwin?

  Do you think everybody's capable of that?

• 17:52Speaker 05

  I don't, I don't know if I would say that.

• 17:55Alec Baldwin?

  To whatever degree, not capable of that, but creating a false reality.

• 17:58Speaker 05

  One of the things that has been an education to me as a reporter, when I'm out interviewing people that have been, for instance, in Al Qaeda, or, you know, people that have come out of, you know, I interviewed the children of Jim Jones, and, you know, I talked to people who were into Scientology, they're not crazy people, and they're not stupid, and, you know, they're, they're often, you know, if there's a commonality, there's idealism, you know, a longing to make, you know, change history, make something of yourself, and that's, you know, maybe that's one of the most dangerous elements of our human nature, is that we, it's the better parts of our nature that sometimes lead us into real dangerous

• 18:43Speaker 05

  areas.

• 18:44Alec Baldwin?

  Were the better parts of the natures of Jones's children that got the better of them?

• 18:49Speaker 05

  Well, you know, they were, they were essentially captive to him, so, but, and they survived, thank God, they were all playing basketball in a tournament in Georgetown, Guyana, so they weren't.

• 19:03Alec Baldwin?

  When the killings went down.

• 19:04Speaker 05

  When the killings went down, but the, it's always, to me, it has always underscored the danger of these kinds of fanatical belief systems, there were these three boys, two adopted, Stephen was a natural son, and he looked very much like his father, Jim Jones, with the kind of Cherokee cheekbones, and he's very tall and striking, handsome man, and then there was Jim Jones Jr., who was black, and.

• 19:39Alec Baldwin?

  Adopted.

• 19:40Speaker 05

  Adopted, and then the third adopted son was Tim, who is this big redheaded guy, Tim, these boys, when I talked to them, Waco was going on at that time, the Branch Davidian episode, and Tina Brown was the editor of The New Yorker, and she wanted me to go to Waco, and I said, "There are more reporters in Waco than there are Branch Davidians." I just, but I was, I was convinced that this must, you know, I'd seen the children, some of the children that were sent out. I thought this must have happened before. And I found these three boys who had never, then grown men, never told their story before. And I don't know why they were willing to talk to me, but Tim, when I got to him,

• 20:22Speaker 05

  he demanded that we do it in a restaurant, in a public place, because he didn't want to cry. And he had never told his wife, his current wife, what had happened. And he wanted to say this story one time. Now, bear in mind, Tim Jones is a massive fellow. He can, he can press a hundred pounds with either arm. You know, he has immense physical presence. And we went to the restaurant and within a few minutes, he was pounding the table and sobbing. And because Tim is the one who had to go into the jungle and identify nine hundred people. His real parents, his adoptive parents, his wife at the time, his children, everybody.

• 21:04Alec Baldwin?

  All gone.

• 21:05Speaker 05

  Lying on the ground. And it makes an impression.

• 21:11Alec Baldwin?

  Did he ever confide to you or even just discuss to you what he thought was going on there? What he thought Jones Town was?

• 21:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, they, they all knew that their dad was crazy and that this was headed.

• 21:23Alec Baldwin?

  On behalf of what? What was he doing there?

• 21:24Speaker 05

  You know, he was giving these suicide drills regularly, you know, they break out the.

• 21:29Alec Baldwin?

  But before the suicide drills, what was the purpose of Jones Town? The stated purpose?

• 21:34Speaker 05

  Oh, well, the stated purpose was to, they were, Jones was intensely paranoid. He had the feeling that the government was persecuting him, which was not really true at all. But one night, the entire church disappeared. You know, they all went secretly to this little South American country with, you know, in the, in the middle of the jungle. They'd been preparing it, the boys had been in.

• 21:57Alec Baldwin?

  A religious utopia they wanted.

• 21:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it was just a, you know, it was like a, you know, a, a little summer camp type of thing. They'd built Quonset huts and so on, and they were living near a river and they built an airstrip.

• 22:10Alec Baldwin?

  I remember reading on this thing online where they said. that Jonestown was this training ground where they were breeding NK Ultra operatives who were capable of committing murder on behalf of the government and then they'd have no memory of it.

• 22:22Speaker 05

  Well, you know.

• 22:23Alec Baldwin?

  I'm not saying that that's true, but I remember reading that once I was fascinated

• 22:25Speaker 05

  by that. When I was writing about remembering Satan, when I was doing the, you know, multiple personalities were supposed to be the product of satanic ritual abuse. And there was a big rise in multiple personality disorder. And one of the theories was that the multiples had been created by the CIA in order that one personality could become a spy and, you know, deliver messages that other personalities inside the same human being wouldn't know about.

• 22:57Alec Baldwin?

  Lawrence writes New Yorker article, "The Orphans of Jonestown," came out for the 15th anniversary of the 1978 massacre that killed over 900 people. Listen to more conversations with writers who take on complicated issues like David Simon, who wrote the TV show The Wire, but started out as a beat reporter for the Baltimore Sun. I think I was very fair as a reporter. You know, some of poverty is about personal responsibility and some of it is not. Some of it is systemic and a result of societal forces that are profound. Take a listen in our archives at here's the thing.org.

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• 24:15Speaker 03

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 24:33Speaker 05

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. To find your creativity and to believe in yourself, because somewhere in the midst of it, I stopped believing that my voice mattered and that I could find it again. That's a challenge. I was not feeling very confident creatively, only, again, defiant in my belief that what this is about is express something honest. Say something honest.

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• 25:18Speaker 06

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• 26:21Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin. You're listening to Here's the Thing. My guest Lawrence Wright prefers taking notes on index cards over using a computer. You can only imagine the number of cards Wright used for his book Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief. After it was published in 2013, documentary filmmaker Alex Gibney asked Wright if he'd consider an adaptation.

• 26:47Speaker 05

  We'd worked together before. You know, I had done this book about Al Qaeda called The Looming Tower, and I had my little acting venture. I didn't want to travel with it. You know, I just hate touring, you know, doing the book tour thing. I had seen Anna Deavere Smith do Fires in the Mirror at the Public Theater in 1992, and it was the first time I could see that journalism and theater could be married, and I was fascinated by that. So I did a one-man show called My Trip to Al Qaeda, and I did it off-Broadway for about six weeks, and in a few other cities. And Alex saw me do it in Washington.

• 27:30Speaker 05

  We decided to make it into a documentary, which we did for HBO. We hit it off. Alex is a... His nickname from childhood is Tiger, and it's a well-chosen name, and he's a very skillful storyteller. And it takes those qualities to take something as complicated about an organization as vindictive and litigious as the Church of Scientology. It takes somebody like Alex to put together a movie like he's just done.

• 28:02Alec Baldwin?

  One of the things I thought when I saw the film, and, I mean, all my friends and people who know me personally, it wasn't lost on them that within about a week of returning from Park City for the festival, I went there to have a vacation with my family. We just tacked on an extra weekend to see some movies, because I'm a big fan of the festival. And it wasn't lost to my friends, but within about a week after that, I was back on a plane to London to go shoot a film with Tom Cruise.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  Right.

• 28:32Alec Baldwin?

  And Tom is a friend of mine.

• 28:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:33Alec Baldwin?

  And, I mean, I consider him a friend in the business sense, but we don't get to see each other that often, but he's always very kind. And as people who know Tom know, he's a great person to be in the trenches of movie making with. He's very hardworking and very, very passionate about the work. But when I saw the film, one thing I didn't get, and maybe it's there, maybe it was in the book, and maybe it's in the film, but I was, I mean, I watched this film with intense scrutiny, there wasn't any sense to me of what are the people who are in Scientology and remain in Scientology now, who are dedicated to this, what do they perceive they're getting out of it?

• 29:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:12Alec Baldwin?

  Because I have some opinions about that, what people have told me.

• 29:14Speaker 05

  Well...

• 29:15Alec Baldwin?

  What does it do for them? And why are they there?

• 29:17Speaker 05

  Especially when people go into Scientology, they don't, you know, they don't go into it because it's a cult. They go into it oftentimes because they're looking for something.

• 29:25Alec Baldwin?

  Such as?

• 29:26Speaker 05

  Well, you know, sometimes they're spiritual seekers, or they're, you know, you might be one of those people that goes down on the subway and someone says, "Would you like to take our personality test?" You know, and, "Sure, Oxford Capacity Analysis, it sounds like, you know, might be..." And, you know, "Well, we see that you have a little trouble communicating with people." That's true. Well, we, you know, we can-

• 29:47Alec Baldwin?

  They know what to say.

• 29:48Speaker 05

  We can help you with that. Or, in the case of Paul Haggas, you know, he had a girlfriend that he was having trouble with, and say, "We have a course that can help you in your relationships."

• 30:00Alec Baldwin?

  You're in pain.

• 30:01Speaker 05

  And the truth is, oftentimes, they can help. It's like going into therapy. People do benefit from it. So, this initial exposure to Scientology is often very positive to people.

• 30:14Alec Baldwin?

  What about the people like Travolta, people who seem to have the world on a silver platter and everything is going their way?

• 30:20Speaker 05

  Well, that wasn't true when he got in. He was a, you know, troubled young man, who was in his first movie in Mexico. He confided to an actress who was on the set, you know, "He's having these difficulties." And she was a Scientologist, and she gave him some auditing, which is what Scientology calls as therapy, and gave him a copy of Dianetics and so on. He had an experience which-

• 30:47Speaker 05

  Happens to a lot of Scientologists when they're being audited. He went exterior. In other words, he had an out-of-body experience. He had the sense that he had left his corporal being and could look around the room and, you know, see things behind him and so on. At the time, he was taking a course when he tried out for this Welcome Back Cotter. The teacher had everybody in the class turn their direction, I think it was CBS Studios, you know, but telepathically send the message to the executives that John Travolta is right for the role, and he got the part. And so, he always credited Scientology with putting him in the big time, as he said.

• 31:30Speaker 05

  So, you know, in that sense, he really did feel that it had changed his life. But, it's one thing to get into it, and it's another thing to get out of it. If you are a star, like Travolta was at one time the biggest star in the world.

• 31:46Alec Baldwin?

  The biggest.

• 31:47Speaker 05

  And you have put your name down again and again and again as a Scientologist. You're identified with it.

• 31:54Alec Baldwin?

  And they have tapes of you.

• 31:55Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 31:56Alec Baldwin?

  Discussing your darkest moments.

• 31:57Speaker 05

  Right. Like, if you and I were sitting in a Scientology auditing session right now, and you're my auditor, and, you know, and I'm holding the cans which are attached to the E-meter, and you're probing and asking me very personal questions about my life, and things that I would not want to disclose to anyone else, except in this very confidential, confessional atmosphere.

• 32:21Alec Baldwin?

  Euphoric, Lisa.

• 32:22Speaker 05

  Yeah. Material that is actually secretly recorded, sometimes videoed, and then it becomes apparent to you that if you decide to leave, the church may use some of that against you.

• 32:33Alec Baldwin?

  You've heard that.

• 32:35Speaker 05

  And I talked to a guy whose assignment was to go through all those old auditing sessions on John Travolta and find stuff they could use against him because they were worried that he was going-

• 32:45Alec Baldwin?

  He was gonna go over the ball.

• 32:46Speaker 05

  Right.

• 32:47Alec Baldwin?

  In the piece, in the film, the one thing I found that was disturbing was that there are celebrities and wealthy public figures who tie the certain amount of their money, millions of dollars, to this organization. A second tier, if you will, and this is my description, the second tier, if you will, are, you know, middle Americans, middle income, who often go into debt.

• 33:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:10Alec Baldwin?

  Often go into dangerous amounts of debt, and unwise amounts of debt, in order to pay for these ordained in courses and so forth, and to give money to the church. And then there's people who are poor, who have nothing, who wind up trading in-kind services, they become...

• 33:24Speaker 05

  Clergy.

• 33:25Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah, they become like a labor force for them, and they get forty cents an hour, according to the film, and they're doing a lot of work that benefits other people.

• 33:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:36Alec Baldwin?

  In the film, they're saying that these people are maintaining the hangar of Cruise's airplanes.

• 33:42Speaker 05

  Well, not only maintained it, what they did was refurbish it. They built all the furniture, they painted it, they, you know, they essentially took an empty hangar and made it into an office and a place for his planes, and all these elaborate, "Have you ever been in his hangar?"

• 33:58Alec Baldwin?

  No.

• 33:58Speaker 05

  "Burbank, well, he's got, you know, these, you know, big decals and stuff like that, and, you know, banners hanging down, it's a pretty swank environment," and they handcrafted a limousine for him, and oversaw the reconstruction of his tour bus, and they, you know, refurbished his house, and these are people who are paid fifty dollars a week, many of them joined as children, so, you know, they're impoverished, and they're...

• 34:29Alec Baldwin?

  They have no place to go.

• 34:30Speaker 05

  They have, you know, and if...

• 34:31Alec Baldwin?

  Or if they do, they don't know it.

• 34:33Speaker 05

  They, yeah, then, of course, maybe, it may be the case that their families and all are in the church, and if they left, none of those people would ever speak to them again.

• 34:44Alec Baldwin?

  Do you think the people who were the beneficiaries of this kind of, this stuff, do they know what's happening?

• 34:48Speaker 05

  Yes, there's no question that Tom Cruise knows what's going on inside the Sea Org. And I hold Tom to account, I singled him out in particular, and, because they're only...

• 35:02Speaker 05

  Two ways that the abuses that we chronicle in the movie and in my book, there are only two ways that they can be addressed. And one is that the IRS decides, well, maybe we should reexamine that tax exemption that we were bludgeoned into giving them in 1993.

• 35:19Alec Baldwin?

  Now, explain for people who don't know, because this is a fascinating part of the film. It was during the time that Hubbard was alive? Or was the settlement reached after Hubbard died?

• 35:29Speaker 05

  It was after he died.

• 35:30Alec Baldwin?

  And apparently, he had a brigade and had been raising a lot of money and he had a lot of cash at his disposal and was just shelling the IRS and litigation to maintain their status. And finally, the IRS just caved and said, okay.

• 35:45Speaker 05

  Well, here's the situation that

• 35:47Alec Baldwin?

  Describe what happened.

• 35:48Speaker 05

  David Miscavige found himself in after Hubbard died. He wrestled control of this organization. And Hubbard had decided not to pay the taxes. And so by 1993, the Church of Scientology was a billion dollars in arrears. And it didn't have a billion dollars. And so this was an existential moment for the church. They had to get a tax exemption. And moreover, the IRS hated them. Because, you know, in the 80s Hubbard had infiltrated all these, you know, the Justice Department, the IRS, the Food and Drug Administration, all these Scientology spies inside the government until the FBI broke it open in what was called Operation Snow White.

• 36:32Speaker 05

  And 12 people went to prison, including Hubbard's wife. So the IRS, among other government agencies, did not look kindly on the Church of Scientology. So how do you, just imagine how you would go about getting a tax exemption from the IRS? Well, the Scientology way was to launch 2,400 lawsuits against the IRS and individual agents, to hire private investigators, to follow agents around, to go to conventions where they might be drinking too much or fooling around.

• 37:04Alec Baldwin?

  I don't have a billion dollars to pay the taxes, but I've got 50 million to lob some grenades at you.

• 37:09Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah. And so, and they, they They, uh, they won, and they won in such a-

• 37:16Alec Baldwin?

  Why do you think they won?

• 37:17Speaker 05

  My personal feeling is twofold. One is, I think, that the IRS just did cave. Because it was a deal, the deal on the table was, we'll give you the exemption and, and all those lawsuits will go away, and they did. And so, uh-

• 37:32Alec Baldwin?

  Did they say, "We'll, we'll, we'll give you the exemption and take away those lawsuits, but you have to pay us some amount of this money and go save?"

• 37:37Speaker 05

  Twelve million dollars.

• 37:38Alec Baldwin?

  And that's all the IRS required?

• 37:41Speaker 05

  And moreover, it was such an overwhelming exemption, the church has manifold different entities, you know, but even Hubbard's novels are considered to be scripture and tax exempt. And, uh, and the church now has the authority to determine which parts of itself should be tax exempt.

• 38:02Alec Baldwin?

  Who was it in the film, if I remember correctly, there's someone, I think, is an individual you cite, who says to Hubbard, early in his career, "The only way you're gonna get rich is if you start a religion."

• 38:11Speaker 05

  Oh, there were about ten people he said that to, and, uh, you know, I think that Hubbard really, I think he really did believe that. But let me get back to that, that question of, you know, just to, to touch back on Tom Cruise before we finish that. If the, if the IRS reexamined, after the licking it took, uh, from, from Scientology, if it decided to go back and reexamine that, that might force change inside the church. But I haven't seen any evidence that the IRS has the appetite to do this.

• 38:42Alec Baldwin?

  Who's the senator on the West Coast?

• 38:44Speaker 05

  Senator Ron Wyden is, is, is, is looking into this. And so, you know, that's a possible. But the other way that change and reform could come in Scientology is that some of the celebrity megaphones turn around in the other direction and demand change. And nobody has benefited more from Scientology than Tom Cruise. Nobody is more identified in the public with the Church of Scientology than Tom Cruise. Nobody has brought, lured more people into the church than Tom Cruise. If you ask people, "Name one member of the Church of Scientology," that's the one member.

• 39:19Alec Baldwin?

  He's the top, yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 05

  And, uh, and moreover, it's a powerful, I mean, if you look at- You know, he was the number one box office star. So you had Travolta, then then Tom Cruise and you know, and also Will Smith, who started a Scientology school, although he says he's not a Scientologist. He was one of the top, he was number one. So you have one, two, three, the most powerful actors in the world.

• 39:44Alec Baldwin?

  Among the most powerful, yeah.

• 39:45Speaker 05

  And if you're a young actor, standing out in central casting, waiting to get.

• 39:49Alec Baldwin?

  Maybe it's not a bad idea if I stop by this center.

• 39:52Speaker 05

  Well, when you're standing in line, they'll be passing out brochures saying how to get an agent, how to get ahead in the business, come to the celebrity center.

• 40:00Alec Baldwin?

  They make that direct link.

• 40:02Speaker 05

  Yes. And he also, back in the old days, the acting schools, like the Beverly Hills Playhouse, was run by.

• 40:11Alec Baldwin?

  Milton Katsellis.

• 40:12Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 40:12Alec Baldwin?

  Who was my teacher.

• 40:13Speaker 05

  He was apparently a wonderful teacher.

• 40:15Alec Baldwin?

  And he was a Scientologist.

• 40:17Speaker 05

  And did he ever try to recruit you?

• 40:18Alec Baldwin?

  Uh, I think, I wasn't there long enough. I was there for under a year. I went briefly. And Katsellis was quite a character.

• 40:28Speaker 05

  Tell me about him. I'm fascinated by him.

• 40:30Alec Baldwin?

  Well, Katsellis, he said something that although it was very arch and very, kind of, you might think this was egomaniacal, he was nonetheless right. There was a guy up on stage doing a scene. I was in this class. My then girlfriend got me into the class. This guy's up there doing a scene, I'll never forget. And Katsellis is giving his notes on the scene. And the guy starts to debate him. He says, well, yeah, I don't think it's really. And Katsellis says, I beg your pardon. And he says, well, I don't, he goes, well, I think it's this. And he goes, what it is, is, and Katsellis is now insisting and being a little more, because he was a very powerful guy.

• 41:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:09Alec Baldwin?

  Rhetorically. And he goes and says it again. And the guy debates him again. And Katsellis, he said, we're not here for you to debate what I tell you. He said, you come here and you pay me for me to give you my opinion. He said, I'm not interested in your opinion.

• 41:25Speaker 05

  Right, yeah.

• 41:26Alec Baldwin?

  I give you my opinion and you listen. He turns to the class and goes, and that's it. We don't discuss what I'm saying. This isn't a debate. I say what I say. You listen, you write it down, perhaps, and we're done. And Scientology, I have found, and this is, I mean, I find it odd, but at the same time, I find it kind of fascinating nonetheless, where Scientology says to you, this is what you were put on this earth to do. And it gives you that license and that freedom. You tell your parents, your wives, your children, everyone in your life, that nothing must get in the way of this thing. This is the goose that lays the golden egg.

• 42:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:08Alec Baldwin?

  Movie stardom, you are different. There's an exceptionalistic nature to who you are as a person, and the only way you're going to survive, I mean, to stay in that orbit out there, in that spaceship, living that way, that's a very difficult thing to do.

• 42:23Speaker 05

  And I think when so many of these young people, when they come, you know, it is a young person's game when they get into it. So many of the people that went into Scientology, this is true of anybody that tries to become an actor, and many people who try to become actors, they leave high school, they don't go to college, you have to go right away.

• 42:42Alec Baldwin?

  Nearly everyone we're talking about is uneducated.

• 42:44Speaker 05

  Yes. And so you're, and you're vulnerable, intellectually vulnerable, and also you are risking everything. Your friends are going off, they're going to get law degrees and stuff like that, and you are out in, you know, Hollywood, eating dog food, hoping to be a movie star. There's a sense of inadequacy, that you haven't filled in the great blanks that all your friends are doing.

• 43:05Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 43:06Speaker 05

  And so you, along come Scientologists, which says, why bother?

• 43:11Alec Baldwin?

  None of that matters.

• 43:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, we can, you can supersede all that.

• 43:14Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah, we're going to pole vault over all that.

• 43:16Speaker 05

  You will, you will learn the secrets of the universe, and you'll acquire superhuman powers. And that's, and also, just being noticed at all, at that level, is, you know, very powerful. Because, you know, I'm sure you've done this a million times, but I remember once when I was out in LA, and I was at Norman Lear's company, and I walked into a room in the lobby, and there were about 40 guys who were blonde, and six foot two, and extremely handsome. And, and I felt small. And brown and, and you know, but there was a sign saying, no actors pass this point. And I was able to walk past this point and all those blue eyes turned in my direction.

• 44:00Speaker 05

  And, and I thought, one of those guys, one of those guys is gonna have his life changed. And everybody else is gonna go home and some of them become lawnmowers or something like that, but that's the risk to have the Church of Scientology come along, maybe in that same room and passing out brochures saying that we can help you. And, and by the way, on the brochure that might have a picture of Tom Cruise or somebody like that is a very powerful lure.

• 44:28Alec Baldwin?

  And here's people who say to you, you are different. Just be different. Just accept it. Don't fight it. Where you're gonna go right now is extremely unusual for the average person. It's gonna be a very rarefied atmosphere. Stay calm in the pocket and you're gonna throw the football 100 yards down the field. You're gonna score the winning touchdown. Don't get in the way of your own success. And I have seen many of the people I know who are really prominent in Scientology, they just, that's what it did for them. What clarity was for them was, this is who I am and I'm not gonna, and anybody that tried to make you think what you were doing was less valid or less substantial or less meaningful or was silly or whatever, these guys look like they do.

• 45:05Speaker 05

  And what you're saying, what did they get out of it? There is, you know, this is, you know, a sense of solidity of your identity.

• 45:12Alec Baldwin?

  Belonging.

• 45:12Speaker 05

  And what's so confounding about Scientology in many ways is that, you know, it promises you that you will become more yourself and that you will achieve all this freedom of thought and that you, you know, you'll become saner and healthier and so on, but.

• 45:33Alec Baldwin?

  Shed your past.

• 45:34Speaker 05

  What happens so often is the very opposite. You know, you'd be kind of, you'd become kind of enslaved to the mentality and you're not allowed to think freely. You know, one of the things that was so striking to me about Paul Haggas, who is a very skeptical, imaginative, curious person, but he was in the church for 35 years and for 34 of those years, he never heard a disparaging word about Scientology. He never looked on the internet. He never read any of those stories because he was told not to. And he didn't. He was just as obedient as all those other people because he was told it was a good

• 46:09Alec Baldwin?

  Where did all his intellectual curiosity go regarding that?

• 46:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:14Alec Baldwin?

  What is the thing you're working on now?

• 46:17Speaker 05

  Well, I'm doing, you know, I did another book about Camp David, the Carter-Begins-Saddat thing, which had a play, and I'm now gonna do it as a movie for HBO, and I'm doing a pilot for HBO on Texas politics.

• 46:30Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 46:31Speaker 05

  And I'm working with Bob Balaban on a play about the making of the movie Cleopatra, which is the thing that I've been having the most fun with, and I'm gonna write about ISIS.

• 46:41Alec Baldwin?

  Well, okay, that's what I wanted to talk to you about. When you say, "I'm gonna write about ISIS."

• 46:46Speaker 05

  Yeah. I can't talk about it too much, but I...

• 46:49Alec Baldwin?

  Is this more about religious fanaticism for you?

• 46:52Speaker 05

  Well, in part it is. I'm fascinated by the fact that the entire fabric of civilization can simply be ripped away, and, you know, that barbarism is just under the sheets, and in most grotesque fashion. You know, we look back in the 20th century, and you see Nazism, and people, "How did that happen?" Well, you know, now it's happening again. It's a mystery when these things occur, that human nature can encompass such savagery. But it's right there in front of you, and it's also, it's a fact of human nature that people are drawn to it, and that's what arouses my curiosity.

• 47:35Alec Baldwin?

  Do you think that, when you look at ISIS, do you think that people, I just wanna get your general comment about this, do you think that people over there, ISIS I should say, and whoever the next ISIS is, it seems to have another, they seem to be opening up a new show over there every 18 months or a year, do you think that they just hate our guts, that the United States viewed as a hero, the United States viewed as an answer, the United States viewed as a good guy? Is this just more of people wanted to send us some kind of message about US foreign policy?

• 48:08Speaker 05

  I don't think it has as much to do with us, although I think Iraq, our adventures in Iraq was, you know, that's what broke the egg. And I don't think we would be looking at what we're seeing now, but the whole region, what worries me about ISIS is that...

• 48:25Speaker 05

  Everything that holds the Middle East together is breaking apart. The states are failing. You know, I've been in Syria before and it was, to me, the least religious Arab country that I'd ever been in. So it's quite surprising to see, you know, this Islamist savagery going on right there. They're all places. Yeah, I was taken aback by it. But, you know, I've spent a lot of time in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and places like that. And I know that they're not strong, resilient governments and they are very fractured societies.

• 49:04Speaker 05

  And in that environment, we saw what happened in Iraq, you know, just almost overnight, this band of marauders takes over an area the size of the United Kingdom. Well, Jesus, you know, how did that happen? And will it spread? Will these societies be able to? Because we can't stop it. It's gonna be up to Sunni societies in the Arab world to stop it themselves. And I don't have confidence that they can. That's what concerns me. The problem becomes when you identify yourself so much with your religion rather than your

• 49:45Speaker 05

  country or your family or so on, that becomes a sole basis of your identity. And it's a real problem in Europe right now for marginalized young men who don't feel like they are a part of French society, for instance. You know, there may be eight to 10% of the population of France is Muslim. 60% of the prisoners are. So can you imagine a better example of how marginalized a group of people is in a country? And clearly, France has done a horrible job of trying to integrate these people into their societies. And it's not just the fault of the French government.

• 50:26Speaker 05

  I'm holding, you know, those Muslims responsible as well for not participating more fully in the countries that have adopted them. But this is a... This is a profound problem and it's gonna last a long time. And I feel, you know, that we can't solve it ourselves. And if we try to solve it, it'll rebound on us in a profound way. Not saying we should disengage entirely, but we should be honest about the limits of our ability to resolve a problem that is essentially a function of the societies that it's in.

• 51:02Alec Baldwin?

  I know you're not a writer in the Halverstam tradition where you're gonna inhabit some institution. But if I can be so bold as to recommend the next fanatical reality that Lawrence Wright should inhabit, write a book about, I'd love to see your book about the Pentagon.

• 51:16Speaker 05

  Oh, that's an interesting idea.

• 51:18Alec Baldwin?

  I'd love to see you write a book about the Pentagon from top to bottom. You'll give me the rights to do it with HBO. I can play, portray, answer someone. We'll have a great time.

• 51:26Speaker 05

  Well, that'd be great.

• 51:27Alec Baldwin?

  We'll have a lot of fun.

• 51:29Speaker 05

  So you're attached?

• 51:30Alec Baldwin?

  I'm attached. I'm such a fan of your writing. That's an easy yes. The answer is yes, I'm attached.

• 51:36Speaker 05

  Okay, that's good to know.

• 51:41Alec Baldwin?

  If you also appreciate Lawrence Wright's work, there's a lot more to consume. Nine books, five plays, countless articles. The documentary film based on his book Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief is currently available on HBO On Demand and HBO Go. And if you're ever in Austin, you might be able to catch him playing keyboard in the Blues collective Who Do?

• 52:14Alec Baldwin?

  Wright said of playing in a band, quote, "I decided a while ago that I would only do things that are really important or really fun. This is really fun." This is Alec Baldwin. You're listening to Here's the Thing.

• 52:42Speaker 06

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