Apple Silicon Has Competition!

Next week is Apple's WWDC conference, but this week was all about Microsoft. But first, Andrew showed off his new DIY smartwatch to Marques and David. Then they go over the new announcements from Microsoft and NVIDIA including a new chip that might finally be some competition for the M-series chips. Allegedly. Maybe. Of course, we wrap it all up with trivia! Links: Fitbit Air mods Ollee watch Cam Shand - Ollee watch video 9to5Google - Opting out of AI overview in Google search Verge - Gemini Spark Microsoft - RTX spark Microsoft Surface Ultra Verge - Microsoft Project Solara Agent OS Newswire - Microsoft Banks Claude Code This episode brought to you by: ChefIQ: https://chefiq.com/discount/WAVE Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/wave Follow us on socials: Marques: https://twitter.com/MKBHD Andrew: https://www.instagram.com/andrew_manganelli/ David: https://www.instagram.com/davidimel/ Adam: https://www.instagram.com/parmesanpapi17/ Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin Waveform: Twitter: https://twitter.com/WVFRM Threads: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/waveformpodcast/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Intro/Outro music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrew Manganelli?

  This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, host Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist, and Colin Martin, Head of Fixed Income Research and Strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring your fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episodes and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. AI is only as useful as the context it has to work from. But when that context is scattered across tools, threads, and DMs, that means your team and your AI agents end up flying blind. That's the problem that Jira solves. What's the goal tied to your project? What got decided last week in Slack? Atlassian's teamwork graph pulls all these pieces together, from Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more. So, nothing falls through the cracks. With Jira, you can actually share that context with the AI agents you already use, like Claude, Cursor, and GitHub Copilot, assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time digging through endless links and DMs, less time chasing down what got decided and by who, and more time actually shipping. Learn more at jira.com.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  That's J-I-R-A dot com. Then they got to California stuff for OSN9. Okay, Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan.

• 1:26David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Okay, great.

• 1:27David Imel?

  California.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Sierra. High Sierra.

• 1:30David Imel?

  California, California.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Mojave.

• 1:32David Imel?

  California.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Catalina.

• 1:33David Imel?

  California.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Big Sur. Now, we're just obscure. Monterey.

• 1:38David Imel?

  Monterey's not obscure.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Ventura.

• 1:40Speaker 03

  Ventura is not obscure.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Sonoma.

• 1:43Andrew Manganelli?

  I honestly didn't know Ventura was a place.

• 1:45David Imel?

  Because you guys are not from California.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:48Speaker 03

  It is a little obscure.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Most people aren't from California.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  I know, but then, actually, statistically, in the United States, most people are from California.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, what is up people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts, I'm Marquez.

• 2:07Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm Andrew.

• 2:08David Imel?

  I'm David.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  So we've got a big week for you. It's the week before WWDC, so we'll have some predictions, some stuff to talk about. We've got a lot of watch talk also. Apple silicon competitors are starting to pop up and this is part of a bunch of stuff that's competing with Apple's world, but Nvidia RTX Spark. We gotta talk about that.

• 2:28David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  And then Google is letting website owners opt out of AI overviews and some Microsoft news. So let's just dive right in.

• 2:35David Imel?

  All right.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  But first of all, if you haven't already subscribed on YouTube, this is definitely a shout out. I know a lot of people actually don't subscribe, but then it shows the video when we launch on the homepage anyway, because you just go to the homepage. But if you want to make sure you definitely see every new episode, subscribe and hit the little bell and then when it comes out, you'll be able to go, oh, pod on time or oh, pod late.

• 2:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Or chapters working.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  That's actually here before chapters broke.

• 2:59David Imel?

  That's your alarm.

• 2:59Andrew Manganelli?

  At me, I just came here to have a good time, record a podcast. I feel very attacked right now.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Well, that bell will be your alarm to go do your dishes. So you can just wait until the bell goes off and then you go do your dishes.

• 3:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  And if you're subscribed, you'll always get here before the chapters break.

• 3:12David Imel?

  That's right.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  That's very important.

• 3:13David Imel?

  Yep.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Uh, but first, did they even test this?

• 3:17Andrew Manganelli?

  I think Alice has one for us today.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  I do, and I'm kind of nervous because I sort of feel like whenever I have a, did they even test this, it's just on me.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Did you even Google this?

• 3:27Speaker 03

  I have a feeling it's the case, but you know, okay, so I have been trying to broaden my worldview and by that I mean use non-apple products more and more lately. And, uh, you know, eagle eyed viewers of the podcast may have noticed I've had a series of different garments on my wrist for the past few weeks. Today it's the Phoenix eight OLED dinner plate edition.

• 3:52Andrew Manganelli?

  I think solar, right?

• 3:53Speaker 03

  Not solar, the AMOLED, um, AMOLED X Ben 10, um, because this thing is ginormous. Uh, uh, but. Um, and I don't know if other Garmin users do this. One thing that I really liked about the Garmin, I think maybe is that you, when you do strength workouts, you could put sets, reps, exercises, weights in, and then it's like, nice thighs, or whatever. I don't know. To be honest, I can't figure out how to use the data.

• 4:22David Imel?

  I've tracked your thigh data.

• 4:24Andrew Manganelli?

  I've never watched that. I've used Garmin for years and the sets and reps thing, I always just, my strength workouts, I essentially set up a bunch of different cardio workouts with just names of what I'm doing that day. So I just know the general.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  So that's what I've been doing for a long time too, but I was curious if I could get some sort of insight into, I don't know, I even saying this out loud, I'm like, dude, what are you doing? But um, I was just curious about the whole, the whole platform. And uh,

• 4:51Speaker 03

  when you're doing upper body workouts, it's reasonably accurate. Like I would say it gets the right exercise 75% of the time and gets the reps right about 50% of the time. I do like the interface on the AMOLED Phoenix. Uh, it makes it very easy to like change what, how many sets or reps. But after a workout, if you would like to correct Garmin's mistakes, you must do it in the Garmin Connect app, which is already uh, not awesome.

• 5:19Andrew Manganelli?

  It's an app.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  It's an app. It is a app. Um, but the thing that I, is I did even test this, is I have found the search bar to, when you want to correct a work, an exercise, to search for the correct exercise, is the most difficult to use search bar I have ever used in my entire life. I don't know. I cannot figure out the keyword logic. I cannot figure out anything about it.

• 5:46Speaker 04

  Have you searched in Gmail recently?

• 5:48Speaker 03

  I, it's so much worse than Gmail. Like so, so yesterday, yesterday, I was doing one-legged leg presses with like a stability pad and I had given, I knew there was not going to be a stability pad option, right? I'm in PT, I'm fixing my ankles, I'm fixing my calves. And uh, so I was like, okay. So I Googled leg, or excuse me, I put leg into the search bar. Nothing came up. I put press into the search bar. 50 million options came up, obviously because of all the presses.

• 6:19Andrew Manganelli?

  That doesn't make sense.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  I put leg press into the search bar and leg press showed up. Not what I'm looking for. I did one leg and leg press. So I put one leg, nothing again. I put one in, nothing comes up. I put one arm just because I put single, nothing. It's just like, I literally cannot figure out for the life of me, how to find any exercises in this. And then it's compounded by the fact that like, I'm what I think a lot of people would call like a fitness moron. Like, I really don't, I'm still like, learning what I'm doing in the gym. Which I think makes me a great candidate for a product like this. But I'll be like, I don't know what this exercise is called. And then I'll try to go into Google and be like,

• 7:01Speaker 03

  "Exercise where you're on one foot and you take the thing and you swing it." And like, you know, like, and it'll just be like, "That's a Czechoslovakian double."

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Bulgarian?

• 7:13David Imel?

  Bulgarian.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Actually, to Garmin's credit, Bulgarian split squats are in the app and that was-

• 7:19David Imel?

  Those are very common.

• 7:20Speaker 03

  If you search Bulgarian, it does actually come up.

• 7:23David Imel?

  That is like the hardest exercise you could possibly do.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  So-

• 7:26David Imel?

  I fall over every time.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Oh, have you guys used the hydro tube with those? In my PT, they gave-

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Is that for balance?

• 7:34Speaker 03

  It's, it's sick, Marques.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  That sounds, I'm picturing something, but I want you to describe.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  Okay, picture like a four foot hot dog, filled with 15 to 30 pounds of liquid, depending on how much it's like filled that day. And it's sloshing around. And so you put it over your shoulders like-

• 7:52Speaker 01

  That sounds sweet. The barbell?

• 7:54Speaker 03

  Is that what that's called? Boom, like a barbell. And then not only do you have the weight of the water, but it's sloshing around. So you have to activate your core and your shins.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  I need a four foot, I need a four foot barbell filled with water. That's really useful.

• 8:07Speaker 03

  It was sick, but obviously there's no way to put that in your, in your Garmin either. Anyway, so I would like to amend this. Did they even test this to, um, please help?

• 8:18Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, to be fair.

• 8:18Speaker 03

  Someone tweet at me and tell me what I'm doing wrong because it has to be me, right? Like, there's no way this premier fitness app has, is this.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  I think it's a little bit of both. The thing is, there's, there's, it's all about, like you say, you're a beginner and there's people who are more advanced, like every exercise has a variation and a different name. And to some extent, I just kind of lump a lot of different exercises into, into like a bigger category because it almost doesn't matter when I'm logging it. So if something is just in PT, I'll just label it all as PT and oh, whatever. I just.

• 8:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Or like if leg press was still in there, even though you're doing single leg, leg press with a whatever, I probably just leg, leg press. But you proved that the search function is broken because you typed in.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Leg press.

• 9:00Andrew Manganelli?

  You typed in lag and nothing came up, right? And then you typed in press.

• 9:04Speaker 03

  And everything came up. But, and it's like, also it's like, am I crazy? Like, I feel like a single leg, a single leg, leg press is not like a arcane, mysterious exercise.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  No, it's pretty common.

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, so anyway, I guess I also, without turning this into the waveform fitness podcast, when you guys are tracking strength stuff, are you looking at macro data, like, like data across large periods of time? Because that was my thing is like, if I log all these workouts after a month, I will hopefully see some sort of macro trends that I'm interested in. But I'm curious, I don't even know what I'm looking for.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  What kind of data you trying to look for?

• 9:40Speaker 03

  I don't know. I'm just, I was sort of.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Progressive overload kind of thing?

• 9:43Speaker 03

  I was just sort of hoping I would log it and then the Garmin app would be like, here's what you need to know. But it doesn't seem like it's ever going to be like, here's what you need.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  I highly doubt the Garmin app is tuned to actually give you advice.

• 9:54Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  It's probably just for hard data.

• 9:56Andrew Manganelli?

  I wouldn't be surprised if it's coming soon though, with some sort of AI coaching because of their screenless band that's rumored for this year.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  With a subscription? Garmin has fighter jet money. Why do they need me to pay a subscription? That's ridiculous.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  The Fitbit air keeps winning.

• 10:11David Imel?

  He stays winning.

• 10:12Speaker 03

  One more thing about about fitness.

• 10:14David Imel?

  Okay.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  I successfully heard from one of my friends and I don't know if this was the intended result. One of my non-tekky friends, she said that we successfully de-influenced her from buying a Fitbit Air.

• 10:26David Imel?

  You know what's funny about that? That's so funny. I just got back from California for an unnamed shoot. But while I was there, yeah, you guys will find out soon enough what that was for. But while I was there, probably four or five people between the airports I was at and all of the events that I went to said, they pointed out the Fitbit on their wrist and they said, I got this because of you.

• 10:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Really?

• 10:48David Imel?

  Yeah. And it was a lot of Fitbits. And I was surprised at how many Fitbits. But yeah. They're apparently selling like an insane amount.

• 10:55Speaker 04

  It's the perfect price for a splurge. Like a, okay, I'll do it. Like a whoop you have to think about.

• 11:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Or for everyone thinking about a whoop and then saw that and were like, oh.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  No, I was saying the opposite. Like she was going to buy one until she listened to the Wave.

• 11:07David Imel?

  That's what I was expecting more of.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:10David Imel?

  What was the reason that she didn't buy it? Cause the app is so bad?

• 11:12Speaker 03

  We said it didn't work.

• 11:13David Imel?

  Well, it works, but the Gemini.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. It was that it was that the the whole app experience was just.

• 11:18David Imel?

  I mean, it's so far. I've read so many people's reviews at this point, like Christian Selig put a blog post out about it. His takeaway was exactly the same. It was like, this is a really, really great product that the app doesn't really work at all. But it's still a great product. And that's, that was my takeaway too. It's just weird. It's weird that I can still recommend it and also really enjoy it and also be like, the app is crap.

• 11:38Speaker 04

  As long as it does the basics, that's all I care about. Google wants me to care about the AI coaching. I don't like, cool. That's cute that it's there. But I just want to know if I took this many steps today. And like, it does that. So yeah, it's a good product, but the app is very eh.

• 11:51David Imel?

  Yeah. Well, speaking of Fitbit, this is convenient because this was next on our list. So Fitbit has seen all the people that have been, I guess, Google has seen that the people have been talking about the Fitbit Air. There's a, there's this trend going around on social media where people are attaching traditional watches to the Fitbit Air strap.

• 12:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:12David Imel?

  Which looks pretty cool. A lot of, sometimes it doesn't look quite right, but sometimes it looks okay.

• 12:16Andrew Manganelli?

  They're doing it by flipping the tracker part goes on the underside of their wrist.

• 12:20David Imel?

  Yes.

• 12:20Andrew Manganelli?

  And then looped through, Adam, am I saying this NATO style for some of them is, which just means that it.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  It slips through the lugs, right? On a watch.

• 12:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  Actually, sorry, I got it. I freaking love standards. And if I, I'm gonna fact check this out the episode because it's something I'm, I'm pretty sure the NATO strap is like unbelievably specified, like they're all exactly the same. So that countries in NATO can just buy insane bulk orders of straps and know they fit all military watches that they wear.

• 12:52David Imel?

  Oh.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  It's like, it's part of the insane, like, one of the big points of NATO is being able to like bulk order everything to like these insane standards and like share everything. And then this one random watch strap is just one of the cool standardized things we got out of that. Sorry, I love standards.

• 13:07David Imel?

  North Atlantic Treaty Organization, we love it. So anyway, Dan Seifer, who used to work at The Verge, now works at Google, shared a photo online of him using a traditional watch attached to his Fitbit Air.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  A Timex Marlin.

• 13:19David Imel?

  A Timex Marlin.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Beautiful watch.

• 13:21David Imel?

  Marlin is a fish. So you guys know. And it looked pretty cool. Adam asked him, does this actually work? Because a lot of people need to flip the Fitbit Air upside down and then it kind of goes against your wrist instead of the top of your wrist, it's the bottom of your wrist.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:37David Imel?

  And he said, it's not officially supported, but it works fine, which is very interesting, very surprising. And so, as of yesterday, actually as of this morning, Fitbit put out official specifications for the Fitbit Air so that anybody can make adapters, can make straps, can make, you know, bicep attachments or whatever, which is amazing.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  That's what we were predicting.

• 14:01David Imel?

  Well, we were predicting that the third-party market would exist regardless of if Google officially allowed it to exist.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  And then Google went, let me make that a little easier for you.

• 14:10David Imel?

  Yeah, I think that they saw the things that people were doing with it and they were like, you know what, we're gonna officially make this work. And so that's very, very, very exciting because we are all kind of wrist-maxing right now. We've been just like testing.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Speak for yourself. Show the camera, okay. Show the camera, because this is.

• 14:26David Imel?

  Well, this is what you did last week.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  This is what I was doing last week, exactly, almost the same. You have the bulky Apple Watch, I had the.

• 14:32David Imel?

  Yeah, the smaller one.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  The Series 11, but yeah, the triple. Why are you, why do you have all three on now?

• 14:36David Imel?

  Okay, so because after I put out my Fitbit Air review on my blog, Whoop freaked out and they emailed me and they were like, can you just try it? And I was like, I'll try it. And to be fair, I should try it because I shouldn't be comparing it to Whoop I've had and tried. Like, that's the reason you're trying the Whoop too.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:54David Imel?

  And so I'm giving it a shot for like a couple of weeks. And yeah, W.

• 14:59Speaker 04

  You're gonna like it.

• 15:00Andrew Manganelli?

  That's how they get you.

• 15:00David Imel?

  We'll see, we'll see. I'm not.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  Three hundred dollars a year after that.

• 15:04David Imel?

  I'm not paying that money, dude. There's no way. There's no way. It doesn't matter how good it is. Yeah, and then Dub Dub is coming up next week, so I have to wear the Ultra. So I'm just like, I'm just fitness maxing right now.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:16David Imel?

  Anyway, so yeah, I'm very excited for the strap ecosystems to sort of blow up for this. Like we said before, we'd love like bicep straps. We'd love like just different types of watch adapters because we really want traditional watches to be able to be smart, but still be traditional watches. Adam, are you wearing your traditional watch on top of your Fitbit Air?

• 15:38Speaker 04

  Absolutely not. I'm not a psycho. It's fine to just wear two things.

• 15:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Is it okay?

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Nah, man. It's okay, as long as they're both not watches. Like the issue with the smartwatches was that I would have a regular watch on my left hand. And then a smartwatch on my right hand, which I only want for tracking, but it also tells the time. So now I'm like dual wristing for no real reason. But that's the beauty of like the Whoop and the Fitbit and the Amaze Fit. Like all these things are just straps. Like it's fine. It's just another accessory, like a bracelet that I wear on the offhand. And then on my regular hand, I'll just wear my typical watch.

• 16:09David Imel?

  Hearing you say that makes me feel less self-conscious about it. Cause I don't want to wear two things. I just want to wear one.

• 16:15Speaker 04

  Oh, you're not even wearing an Apple.

• 16:16David Imel?

  I'm not even wearing the Apple Watch right now.

• 16:18Speaker 04

  As long as it's not two of the same thing. That's where I'm like, I get torn off.

• 16:22David Imel?

  I was like, I had what David had. I had three things at once, which is obviously insane. But if I have one watch on, see, the thing is, it's just when they're overlapped a lot. So like the functionality of an Apple Watch and the functionality of a traditional watch overlap massively. So it looks silly. But if you just have a fitness tracker on, but you also have an Apple Watch, I think everyone also is aware that they're both fitness trackers. Cause the Apple Watch is a fitness tracker to some extent too. So it still feels silly, but they do look different enough that it's okay.

• 16:51Andrew Manganelli?

  I think that's why people like the straps. Totally agree. Like it can be on your other wrist. I probably could be on the same wrist, but I'd probably put it on two different ones. I was. The whole flipping it on the bottom part of your wrist, though, not only, I mean, I'm wondering how accurate it is, but also who cares about the accuracy that much if it's at least consistently inaccurate, which is what we've always talked about.

• 17:13Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 17:14Andrew Manganelli?

  I just think that seems really uncomfortable to have when you're like, maybe I'm a nerd and just typing at a computer all day. That feels awful. That's why my Garmin always had a Velcro strap. That's why I really don't like bulky metal clasps on the bottom of watches. So to have a whole tracker there feels like a lot.

• 17:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, that is not comfortable, I will say.

• 17:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I don't think so, but.

• 17:36Speaker 04

  Definitely more comfortable to be on the top.

• 17:38Andrew Manganelli?

  It's kind of, yeah, it looks kind of wild, but, uh, you know, the fact that people are doing it, it seems kind of fun. Um, I don't know if that will actually be a thing a lot of people do.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  I just Googled it real quick because I was curious and this is the AI overview, but it does make a lot of sense of why it's advised not to wear it on the bottom of your wrist. The optical sensor, since it's optical, it's just about like having a seal with the light. So it's just a thing up against your wrist and it's pointing at your wrist.

• 18:04Speaker 04

  It's a flat.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  When you wear it underneath your wrist, the tendons running through your fingers cause a lot of light leak because you move those tendons a lot and move your fingers. And so it can introduce a lot of noise or light leak in that sensor data.

• 18:18Speaker 04

  That makes sense.

• 18:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Watching tendons is kind of crazy.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's all, I get that that may be noisier and a little bit less reliable for the fitness tracker.

• 18:28Andrew Manganelli?

  That's not what I was expecting, but I do remember in, I think it was Desfit's review, uh, he said that the Fitbit Air, one thing is because it is thinner than the Whoop, an issue sometimes was that because the tracker is so close to the edge, if it seemed to kind of poke up the light leak inside of that could screw it up where the Whoop is so much wider, there's less of a chance of light leak coming in.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Interesting. I wouldn't have thought that. I almost would have thought, oh, my veins, I can see on the bottom. Can it read my heart rate better through my veins? But that's just not how it works.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. It makes, it makes intuitive sense because like, oh, you feel your pulse there. So like, obviously you should still be able to get my heart rate. But yeah, the, there's a bunch more that you're reading too. So.

• 19:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. The optical sensor also needs more like muscle tissue, I believe. So like, that's why the bicep straps are so popular because there's a lot of like muscle there for the optical sensor to read from versus the wrist, which is like you said, Mark has a bunch of tendons and stuff.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would work for me if I had bicep muscles.

• 19:23Andrew Manganelli?

  All right. So we don't.

• 19:24Speaker 04

  What are you talking about?

• 19:28Speaker 01

  I don't have injured arms. I just, I don't, it'll just fall up. I don't know.

• 19:31David Imel?

  Your arms are bigger than mine, Mark. You're fine.

• 19:33Andrew Manganelli?

  So Adam will not be doing the, uh,

• 19:36Speaker 04

  No, it's also just like, it introduces another layer of friction for me because I change watches a lot. Like there are times when I'll get home from work and like part of my routine is switching out a watch. So like an at home watch, you know? I know, Mark, that's crazy. But that's part, well, so like I, I get home, I plug in my phone. I put my Pixel watch on so that I can leave my phone in the other room charging and I still get messages. So like, that's part of my thing.

• 20:00Andrew Manganelli?

  I will say this new Fitbit accessory, like, uh, specifications going out for more people to do it. I think is what seems, whoop is like, you can get different color bands. You can get different color hardware. The hardware is only that metal clasp, right?

• 20:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:16Andrew Manganelli?

  How easy the Fitbit Air is to pop out into another band and having multiples of them is so sick. And when there's a thousand different versions of that.

• 20:25Speaker 04

  I miss that.

• 20:25Andrew Manganelli?

  For probably all under 30 bucks is like awesome to be able to mix.

• 20:30Speaker 04

  When's the Fitbit underwear coming?

• 20:32David Imel?

  I don't think that's gonna happen.

• 20:33Speaker 04

  Someone's already working on it.

• 20:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Are you doing a review on it?

• 20:35Speaker 04

  No, but if it helps make it happen, maybe.

• 20:38David Imel?

  We made duct tape. That's all I gotta say. Do whatever you want. True. Speaking of, uh, regular watches that can be smart in some ways.

• 20:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes. Speaking of not watch maxing, but maybe watch.

• 20:49David Imel?

  Semi-watch maxing.

• 20:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Semi-watch maxing. I was gonna say, there's been, it's been a long time since there was no garment on this podcast, but Ellis is now the garment user. I've been wearing one for like three years straight, pretty much, but I took it off and now I have. This is the Casio F91W.

• 21:11Andrew Manganelli?

  I've never been a Casio fan, but I saw this video the other day.

• 21:14David Imel?

  Fans rise up.

• 21:15Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't have a problem with Casio. I think they're sick.

• 21:17David Imel?

  I love Casio.

• 21:17Andrew Manganelli?

  I've just never worn one or I don't have the nostalgia for one, but I got this video on my recommended the other day called A New Kind of Smart Watch by Cam Shand. And I sent it to Adam and then wound it up watching myself, but. This company called Ali Watch makes a replacement board that can fit inside these Casios that are like $25 and essentially turn it into a smart watch. Now, I'm gonna use smart watch in extreme quotes here because it is a smart watch that simultaneously this person who's running the project has done a million things for and it still does almost nothing.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, what does it, how do you?

• 21:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Let me explain really quick on how I do it. You essentially open the watch up, replace the board completely. So it keeps the original screen, the original LED light.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:02Andrew Manganelli?

  All the original things. And then it puts a new board in that gives it Bluetooth capabilities that now lets it your phone control the board. So I can connect to my phone via Bluetooth and give it a bunch of different features. Now, some of these features, you know, it's, there's still no vibration motor. There's still no

• 22:18Speaker 01

  I'm curious what features you

• 22:19Andrew Manganelli?

  heart rate sensor, heart rate sensor. So

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Time zones?

• 22:23Andrew Manganelli?

  It can do time zones. It can automatically sync times with your phone. Pretty cool. It can use, it does have a gesture mode, which means I have a step tracker now on it, which is pretty cool. Probably wildly inaccurate.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's kind of hacking into the fact that it has a gesture, like an accelerometer to detect something.

• 22:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I think the new board has an accelerometer.

• 22:44David Imel?

  You should compare the steps to your phone steps.

• 22:46Andrew Manganelli?

  I should. I should honestly probably wear my Garmin for like a day and do it just because I almost never carry my phone with me. I leave it all the time to see what that is. I'm almost positive. It does have a stopwatch and an alarm, which the Casio has already, but it's connected to my phone. I can set it up in my phone and it can mark things after I've done them. So if I do, if I run the stopwatch and then stop it, it tracks that in the app and I can go back and edit what that may have been.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is pretty cool.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  That's pretty sad.

• 23:15Andrew Manganelli?

  These are all the different faces that you can activate or not activate. You can just go up and down through all the difference. I have my step counter, stopwatch, timer, alarm. That's all I carry.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Those are, those are faces.

• 23:25Andrew Manganelli?

  These are different faces. There's like, you can play blackjack.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Heart rate?

• 23:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Heart rate is

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Temperature?

• 23:31Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Blackjack on the watch?

• 23:33Andrew Manganelli?

  You can play blackjack.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 23:35Andrew Manganelli?

  The heart rate is

• 23:36David Imel?

  Do you monitor your heart rate while you play blackjack?

• 23:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Uh, I don't think so because I'm pretty sure the way the heart rate works on this is it starts a timer where you hold your neck, count the amount of pulses and then it calculates for you what your heart rate is.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh.

• 23:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Very hacky way of doing it. Temperature, I have found, basically says 100 all of the time because it's definitely just my skin temperature. Um, there's a can, one thing that's cool is it can change the RGB, the LED to full RGB, all of the different things. There's things like raised to wake. The reason I think it's so cool is I love tinkering. Putting this together was super fun, even though it only took like 10 minutes. The, the board is 50 bucks. I believe it's by a singular person in Canada making and sending all of these out to the point where if you look for shipping updates, he just says they will be shipped out in a week. And by that, I mean, I ship all of them on Friday. So no matter when you order it, it will ship out on Friday. That's how small this is.

• 24:32Andrew Manganelli?

  But he did release a roadmap that looks like he is trying to add notifications in Q2.

• 24:39David Imel?

  Just for you, Andrew.

• 24:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Just for me. I don't know how he's gonna do it. There's no vibration motor, probably through a chime, or I'm hoping the LED or some sort of uh, symbol on the watch, but um.

• 24:51David Imel?

  Yeah. I have three Casios and none of them are supported unfortunately, but um, this is an official plea to please support them.

• 24:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Which ones do you have? Plea out there?

• 25:00David Imel?

  I definitely have the AE 1200 World Timer. And then my most recent one, I don't know the model number of, but um, if you are the Ollie, what is it? Ollie?

• 25:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Ollie watch.

• 25:10David Imel?

  Ollie watch. If you're the Ollie watch guy, email me and I'll tell you. DavidDavik at beachstudio.com.

• 25:15Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, it works with a couple of different ones. Casio's got a million different watches. I'm definitely missing quite a few features on my Garmin. Ellis, I don't know if you've gotten used to the flashlight on your Phoenix yet. If you double tap the top left button, it should activate a flashlight.

• 25:32Andrew Manganelli?

  And.

• 25:33David Imel?

  Oh my gosh.

• 25:34Andrew Manganelli?

  The best part about it is if you scroll down, it can be a red flashlight. It is primo for like waking up in the middle of the night and having to go to the bathroom without tripping over everything, but also without blinding yourself.

• 25:46David Imel?

  That's awesome.

• 25:46Andrew Manganelli?

  It's weirdly the thing I miss the most.

• 25:49David Imel?

  Walking Zuzu at night in winter when I'm picking up her poop and she just went in some leaves that I don't know where it landed. That flashlight is so clutch.

• 25:56Andrew Manganelli?

  It's so good. I miss that so much. I'm going to miss, um, I leave my phone places all the time. People in this office can, can uh, attest to that.

• 26:05David Imel?

  I've seen it in the bathroom.

• 26:08Andrew Manganelli?

  So they say they're not, in the roadmap, they're not going to try and add like ping your phone. But if they somehow get notifications going, this with maybe of uh, Fitbit Air might be my new go to.

• 26:20David Imel?

  Not a whoop?

• 26:21Andrew Manganelli?

  No.

• 26:22David Imel?

  That

• 26:23Andrew Manganelli?

  I said I'm not gonna say anything bad about whoop today to myself. That's where I end this right now.

• 26:27David Imel?

  Wait, so why do you need it to be smart if you also have the Fitbit Air?

• 26:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Track, health tracking, sleep tracking.

• 26:34David Imel?

  But the Fitbit Air also does all the tracking that that can do.

• 26:37Andrew Manganelli?

  This does like no tracking, it does step tracking.

• 26:39David Imel?

  So what do you want that for?

• 26:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Tells time.

• 26:42David Imel?

  But then why do you need the smart board?

• 26:44Speaker 04

  Notifications.

• 26:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Notifications.

• 26:45Speaker 04

  Is what he really wants.

• 26:47David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm, okay. You're a psycho for this. I have a bone to pick with all, why is everyone so against notifications on Fitbit Air?

• 26:54Speaker 04

  There's too many.

• 26:55David Imel?

  I don't.

• 26:55Andrew Manganelli?

  You can turn it off. You, I feel like everyone here is actively asking to not include, like, it already has the capability to do this because it has a vibration motor. So asking for it not to have it is just asking for it to not have a feature.

• 27:07David Imel?

  But that would.

• 27:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Because you don't want it.

• 27:09David Imel?

  Significantly reduce the battery life, number one. Number two, the whole point of a screenless device is that you want to forget about it. It's just gonna remind you all the time that it's there.

• 27:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Yo, I get it. Turn it off if you don't want to use it. Why would you not want the feature to have the option to turn it on for people who would want it?

• 27:24Speaker 04

  I do think that having the option is nice and.

• 27:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 27:27David Imel?

  I understand.

• 27:28Speaker 04

  We should have more customizability options like that, but this is my point. I think that it's almost a useless feature because there is no screen. You will only be able to know what one notification is.

• 27:41David Imel?

  Yeah, as your phone vibrating in your pocket.

• 27:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's like, you can't, I mean, maybe you do like one vibrate for text, two for phone, maybe.

• 27:49Andrew Manganelli?

  One vibrate for text, constant vibrate for ring, that's literally all it wants.

• 27:52David Imel?

  It's actually less information because the phone does do different vibrations for different apps and the Fitbit probably wouldn't.

• 27:58Andrew Manganelli?

  If it did one for a text and keep going for a ring, that's literally all I want. Because that's the only notifications that I feel like are enough for me to be like, oh, I feel like that's all it needs. Just give me phone calls and text messages. Here's my plea to Google. You want more of my information? Don't, don't you want to track my phones and text messages?

• 28:17Speaker 04

  They have it already.

• 28:18David Imel?

  They do have other Fitbits too that have like more or less screen.

• 28:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Somebody said that the like Charge 6 has a screen, but it's still kind of small, but I think it still is really bulky compared to this. Plus the like different straps are way lower profile that you can swap out where the Charge 6, you can't do that.

• 28:33David Imel?

  Feels like adding features back to a minimalist phone.

• 28:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Where it's like.

• 28:39David Imel?

  That's a good analogy.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Yes, you do want to be able to do more stuff, but the people are getting the less capable version on purpose.

• 28:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Did we just get to the point where Marquez is?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  I'm not vouching for minimalist. I don't want it, but I'm saying the reason that people go for the minimalist phone, because when I see a minimalist phone, I'm like, just get a regular phone and use it less. That's what my brain says. But yeah, that's, that's probably.

• 29:04Andrew Manganelli?

  I think it seems wild to not want it when it has everything it needs for it already. It feels like you're not giving us something just for the sake of not giving it to us.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  It's like a book's Palma. Just put a cellular radio in it. Just do it.

• 29:16David Imel?

  I think just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

• 29:20Andrew Manganelli?

  I disagree with all you and you all sound pretty anti-consumer right now. And I think the comments will agree with me. Except for how smug I said, saying that therefore now they disagree with me.

• 29:31David Imel?

  Okay, so, okay, here's a counter, counter, counterpoint. Every time you make a point, I make a counterpoint. That's a straight line manifesto lyric.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  That you tweeted.

• 29:38David Imel?

  Um, okay.

• 29:39Andrew Manganelli?

  That will come out in six years.

• 29:40David Imel?

  Yeah, it's still not. It's still not out. Anyway, uh, the counterpoint, counter, counter, counterpoint is that the, a lot of people don't know how to look in their settings. Right? So you're saying like a feature you can turn off. If it was, if it was opt in.

• 29:57Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm, I, sorry, I was whispering that as Marquez was saying something before. It can be default off.

• 30:03David Imel?

  Okay.

• 30:03Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't care. Yeah.

• 30:04David Imel?

  All right.

• 30:04Andrew Manganelli?

  If people don't want to default it as off, add it as a feature later. People have it already. They're not used to it. Give me it later.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  If there's a big flashing red button that says, if you turn this on, your battery life will be worse and your life will get worse. Then yeah, I guess so. I guess.

• 30:18Andrew Manganelli?

  And you bought the wrong Fitbit.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, return it.

• 30:21David Imel?

  I'm just picturing having that feature and I would turn it off after a couple of days. Like even as useful as it is, it doesn't give me the amount of usefulness that will, will let me leave it on.

• 30:31Andrew Manganelli?

  I love the fact that. With my Garmin, my phone never vibrated, it never rang, it never did anything for like three or four years. Now I have to have the vibration on to know when I'm getting a call or a text. And I don't know how you all deal with this, but it's woken me up every single night since because I forget to turn vibrations off when I go to sleep.

• 30:52Speaker 04

  Do not disturb.

• 30:54Andrew Manganelli?

  But you have a routine, right?

• 30:56Speaker 04

  Every day at nine o'clock.

• 30:57Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll ask you this later on how to set it up because it has to be set up through assistant?

• 31:02David Imel?

  No.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  No, usually a lot of phones you can just like have do not disturb and just like turn it turn on automatically at nine PM every day.

• 31:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, I need to do that. Someone teach me how to do that because I'm an idiot.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Okay, go off.

• 31:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Apparently.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Teach me, teach me how to do that. Okay.

• 31:16David Imel?

  And speaking of Google.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:18Andrew Manganelli?

  I saw this this morning on nine to five Google and then they also did a press release. Google is allowing websites to opt out of AI mode and overviews in Google search.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  LS is saved.

• 31:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Let me explain what it's doing first.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:29Andrew Manganelli?

  So they're starting to test a new toggle in their search console, which will allow website owners to decide if they want the site to appear in Google's AI search features like AI overviews, AI mode, or AI overviews and discover. If you decide to opt out, you will not receive traffic or impressions from generative AI features and they also promise it won't affect your search rankings for regular Google searches. So like

• 31:54Speaker 04

  Allegedly.

• 31:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Allegedly fair.

• 31:58Andrew Manganelli?

  One thing though, it doesn't seem like it's stopping it from coming up in Gemini. This is like Google's search features. The funny thing in their press release where they claimed, "We are actively listening to feedback from publishers and creators and engaging with regulators like the UK's competition and markets authority to ensure website owners have the right tools as user preferences evolve." AKA, UK got our ass again.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  We had to.

• 32:23Andrew Manganelli?

  And we need to fix something because of it. So that's why this is rolling out to UK website owners first before potentially moving globally. They said they are also working on rolling out new insights for website owners in the search console that can help them understand the traffic they're getting, whether that's coming from AI features going forward. So that seems like a cool thing to add on top of this because obviously they don't want people to opt out. So give them some more information on. Maybe to claw them back in like, look at all these sweet insights you're getting.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, this gives Google a chance to put their money where their mouth is because their their big argument, I don't know if you listened to Nilay's interview with Sundar, but Google's argument is that, yeah, there's going to be less traffic to a lot of websites because of AI overview, but the traffic that websites do get will be way more specific and high quality traffic. And that's, you know, obviously great for commerce and great for certain websites. But I don't know if anybody believes that right off the bat. We'll have to like see that actually play out. So to offer the tools and insights to see, oh, okay, I was getting, let's say, 100 page views a day or something like that. Now I'm getting 20, but all 20 of them buy something instead of 20 out of the 100.

• 33:35Andrew Manganelli?

  If you're an affiliate based website, that's awesome.

• 33:37David Imel?

  Yeah, I was just gonna say that ignores the fact that a lot of websites exist off of like banner ads.

• 33:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, banner.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:43David Imel?

  Use it all.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Ad traffic disappears.

• 33:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  For those websites.

• 33:46David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's an it's at least an opportunity to show like how the traffic changes based on you opting in or opting out.

• 33:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I mean, giving them, giving them the option is good. Giving them more information to make that decision is good.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Wikipedia opts out.

• 34:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, so that was something people were talking about on Reddit. So I have a list of like some things I'm interested to see how this changes. One, how many owners look at the statistics and what decision they wind up making. I think most website owners right now are like, I hate AI overviews because they're stealing traffic. When they see this, I want to see if a lot of people will actually stay or if they will opt out. If large websites opt out, one, how does that affect AI responses if Wikipedia like decides to? If they're big enough, will Google try and make some sort of agreement with them?

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 34:39Andrew Manganelli?

  To make sure that they don't like if a Wikipedia opts out, I can't imagine Google wouldn't be like, uh, we need to find some sort of compensation.

• 34:45David Imel?

  I mean, they did it with Reddit. They made a deal specifically with Reddit. So I could see them doing that.

• 34:50Andrew Manganelli?

  I could definitely see that. Then my other question is, if a website opts out now. How much of

• 34:58David Imel?

  They're existing.

• 34:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, like, information is already in the zeitgeist of.

• 35:02David Imel?

  Oh, they've already scraped the entire.

• 35:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 35:06David Imel?

  Scraping stops, but whatever was already scraped is probably already in. My model is only trained up until, yeah.

• 35:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is, yeah, I feel like they need an answer for that. There's no way they're taking it out because it's all trained and they essentially can't, right?

• 35:19David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 35:20Andrew Manganelli?

  So whoop-de-doo, I guess, in the future, that's nice, but right now, kind of sucks, but.

• 35:26David Imel?

  I just hope that in the search console, there's a little toggle for me to turn on and off notifications.

• 35:32Andrew Manganelli?

  I agree.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  It feels like the model, I was gonna call it a black box, like, the training data is just in the black box, and then I just thought of the analogy that it's kind of like a black hole. Like, all of, all of the mass of the star is already in, so you can't take it out. Like, I know it's part of all the rest of the stuff in there, but the mass is too dense, you just, you can't pull out one of the things. Once it's in there, it's in there.

• 35:55David Imel?

  Otherwise, you get sucked in.

• 35:56Speaker 04

  We don't get the Hawking Radiation.

• 35:57David Imel?

  Exactly.

• 36:00David Imel?

  Yeah, what about the Hawking Radiation, Marquez? The pulsar.

• 36:05Andrew Manganelli?

  I think I can name all the planets.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  All right.

• 36:08Andrew Manganelli?

  How much interest?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Well, after the break, we are gonna talk a little bit about Nvidia's new RTX Spark chipset that's trying to upset Apple, but maybe won't. We'll see. Before that, though, we got something that always comes out of the black hole.

• 36:24Speaker 04

  A tech trick.

• 36:28David Imel?

  That's gotta, that's gotta be on the board. That's gotta be.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Uh, a tech question.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  A tech trivia question.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  I slept for 30% of the one I was supposed to.

• 36:42David Imel?

  According to Whoop.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, tech trivia.

• 36:46David Imel?

  Have you ever had a dream that, and you, and you could, and that, and you, that you, and. Guys, I heard the word Google, and I heard the word opt out, and I immediately. Opted out of Google.

• 36:57Speaker 03

  I immediately remembered the old days where you had to opt out of your Gmail, getting every single Google Plus notification and message that you ever dreamed of. So I wanted to write a Google Plus trivia question. Doesn't really have that much to do with the topic today, but we all miss Google Plus. And by we all, I mean, you know, someone out there.

• 37:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Marky Márquez, is that someone?

• 37:15Speaker 03

  Google, as we all know, loves to try new things. And they really, really love to try new things back in the day. I guess they still do. This trivia question.

• 37:23David Imel?

  Not as much. They used to experiment a lot more.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  They do. And so today's trivia question is, how many social media services did Google launch before Google Plus?

• 37:31David Imel?

  Oh, my God.

• 37:32Speaker 03

  Before Google Plus? And?

• 37:34David Imel?

  Name them.

• 37:35Speaker 03

  You don't have to name them, but it will be Price is Right rules. So if you're too, if you think Google is too ambitious.

• 37:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Social media?

• 37:43David Imel?

  Define social media.

• 37:44Andrew Manganelli?

  And you're, I need you to say the question very specifically. Google launched, didn't buy, launched.

• 37:52Speaker 03

  I am going to confirm over the next section that they did not purchase any of these.

• 37:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  But to my knowledge, if they were purchased, they were purchased pre-launched and launched by Google. How many social media services did Google launch before Google Plus? And I know, you know, I thought I rounded up every single one I could find. I'm going to go double check because it's Google. They could have launched six that somehow I never heard of. But these are all ones that I think a reasonable tech enthusiast might not remember off the top of their head, but would remember if spoken allowed. Adam, do you agree? Adam agrees.

• 38:32Andrew Manganelli?

  I can't find it, but did you see the subreddit post of like, I fucking hate Price is Right rules?

• 38:37Speaker 03

  Wait, on our subreddit? Why? What was the reason?

• 38:40Andrew Manganelli?

  It was just like, I just don't get it.

• 38:42David Imel?

  Said Delta is better, which is kind of true. Closest Delta, I like Closest Delta.

• 38:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, Closest Delta's generally better.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Especially when no one really has any idea what the ballpark of the answer is actually going to be.

• 38:52Speaker 03

  Should we do that? I think.

• 38:54Andrew Manganelli?

  No.

• 38:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, what am I talking about here?

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Is Price is Right an internationally known?

• 39:00David Imel?

  I think so.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  It's ISO standard 3892 where they see.

• 39:05David Imel?

  No, that's peanut butter. You're so right.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  That's the Pantone color. No, I feel like I feel like that's a maybe more local fun rule that we've implemented, but.

• 39:14Andrew Manganelli?

  I like swapping.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  As long as everyone knows what it means.

• 39:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 39:17David Imel?

  Whatever you want, Alice. You're the.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, you guys are the game masters. I'm just, you know, we're just.

• 39:21David Imel?

  Just living in your world.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Happy, jolly energy.

• 39:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Until we all get it wrong, and then I will not be happy.

• 39:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  All right, answers. Answers will be at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

• 39:40Speaker 01

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• 40:24Speaker 01

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• 40:28Speaker 01

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• 41:11Speaker 01

  control. And that's what all takes place in the same workspace where the real site is designed, managed, reviewed, and published. Everyone's ideas land on the canvas, stay editable, and can be published when the team is ready. Framer is an enterprise-level solution. Thousands of businesses from early-stage startups to Fortune 500s are choosing to build their websites in Framer where changes take minutes instead of days. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/wave for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/wave. Rules and restrictions may apply. Support for the show comes from Pipe Drive. Sales teams spend up to 50% of their time on admin work rather than selling and building relationships and closing deals. They

• 41:54Speaker 01

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• 42:36Speaker 01

  gets you an exclusive 30-day free trial instead of the usual 14-day trial, so no credit card or payment needed. Just head to pipedrive.com/waveform to get started. That's pipedrive.com/waveform, and you can be up and running in minutes. All right, welcome back. We got to talk about this upcoming Apple event. So by the time you hear this, it's Friday. WWDC 2026 is Monday. And DubDub every year, it's their developer conference. We get all the software, occasionally a little bit of hardware, like some teasing of some hardware. I think the last one we heard about was Mac Pro at DubDub. Maybe. But usually, it's just iOS, iPadOS, watchOS. All the OSs get updated. And

• 43:16Speaker 01

  we do have some expectations for that this year. We got our invite. We will be out there. The clue that we have is all systems glow. As you know, Siri is the thing that glows in iOS because the rest of it is liquid glass. So we are expecting finally to get, I guess, a re-announcement of all the stuff we were expecting.

• 43:39David Imel?

  Two funny things about this. One, last year's tagline was, "It's glow time."

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, again.

• 43:44David Imel?

  They didn't do it.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  We don't talk about that.

• 43:46David Imel?

  Also, the person that announced the revamped Siri two years ago now works at OpenAI.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  The person on stage at Dub Dub who announced it, we don't talk about that either.

• 43:56David Imel?

  Yeah, we don't talk about Siri. So, yeah, we hope it comes back. I was like scouring the internet for all of the rumors, right? Because we wanted to do a rumor roundup. I actually promised you guys a rumor roundup last week. I lied to you. I looked online everywhere. I was like, "Top WDC rumors."

• 44:15Speaker 01

  I got some.

• 44:15David Imel?

  You got some?

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Some small stuff.

• 44:17David Imel?

  Because everything I found was just like Siri.

• 44:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, this is Dub Dub 2024, part two.

• 44:24David Imel?

  Redux.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the main thing that I think is interesting is, so obviously, the iPhone is the thing that Apple does. And the way they differentiate their products, very often, if you look back at the history of Apple, it's just making their new thing the one that works with the iPhone the best, right?

• 44:42David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  So they've been super behind in all this AI and having large language models and having an assistant. But they're finally going to have this new Siri. And what I'm expecting is for them to try to find ways that this assistant is the one that works with the iPhone the best. So how do they do that? One is a pre-installed Siri app. That kind of looks like a messaging app where you can just talk to Siri. I think potentially it's in the messaging app where you just message Siri like you're texting it.

• 45:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  But then two, of course, is like if you have ChatGPT, the app, or Gemini, the app, or any of these other apps clawed on your iPhone, they can only tell you so much about your actual phone. They know about what you've plugged into it and what you've given it access to, but they don't know your messages or your calendar. They can't act on your iPhone for you. So I just generally, I mean, they teased a lot of this stuff already, but I generally expect them to give Siri a bunch of abilities to dig into your iPhone. Use that contact data, calendar data.

• 45:38David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Whatever other stuff is on your iPhone and take actions with it.

• 45:41David Imel?

  This is where Apple is gonna have a lot of explaining to do. Because the entire thing that they kind of sell is privacy. And they're gonna have to reassure people over and over and over again that even though it is using the data that is on your phone with text and the everything and the stuff and it's AI. We're not gonna see it. It's not going anywhere. They're gonna have to talk about their private cloud compute thing again. They're gonna have to say the Gemini nano model runs locally on the phone. There's no data coming to Apple. Because again, it's gonna need all that context. Like, for example. Gemini Spark, that we talked about briefly last week from I O. We, uh, I have early access to it and I tried it a little bit. David Pearce wrote a really good article about it.

• 46:27David Imel?

  And it's, it's kind of creepy how much information it knows about you. Like, uh, when, in Pearce's article that he wrote about it, he said like, "Plan me this trip." And it knew his wife's name. It knew what time his kid takes a nap.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Is this because it's Gemini and it's plugged into your accounts and has all of that?

• 46:43David Imel?

  Yes.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:44David Imel?

  Yes.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:45David Imel?

  Uh, and so, Apple is gonna have to be very clear about the information that they're pulling from your devices and all this stuff. It, again, Apple doesn't have nearly as much information as Google has about you because it doesn't have, like, I guess, I mean, I guess they kind of have iCloud Drive. They can kind of pull from documents and stuff, but they don't have their own documents creator thing that people actually use. They're just gonna have a little bit less context, but yeah, it's, it's gonna be a lot of explaining, like, security, security, security, privacy, privacy, privacy, on-device models.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:18David Imel?

  We'll see how regular people take it.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  They just have to show that little Apple logo that's a lock. It goes.

• 47:23David Imel?

  I, we should take that's right now and how many times they do that animation. They for sure are going to do that at least one time fullscreen.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:29David Imel?

  During WW.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:31David Imel?

  Trust us.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  I can see that.

• 47:33David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  No, that's, it's true. And also, like, to your point. Google is. Essentially, an ads and data collection company. So they have all these great services that also serve as ways to collect data. So like, we use Google Docs. Great. We use Google Calendar as a company. Great. We use Gmail. Okay, so all this stuff is really useful to us as services. But then Jim and Ike pulls from all of that to be helpful for us. Apple, I mean, yeah, they have iCloud. They don't have a, they have, they have iCal. So if you, if your calendar is in iCal, they can use that. Your contacts, your, your iMessage. But then-

• 48:10David Imel?

  Your iMessage even feels like a stretch for Apple to use that data, to be honest.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  If it's on your device.

• 48:16David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  It's cool.

• 48:17David Imel?

  I think it's okay, but I think that the, the messaging is gonna be a little complicated. For some reason, texts are the things that people always think about the most when they think about, is this data leaking?

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 48:28David Imel?

  So, I don't know.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just makes it hard because they don't have as much data and services. I guess it makes it harder for them to make a useful assistant. So we'll see what sort of stuff they plug into with the iPhone.

• 48:37David Imel?

  Yeah, Gemini has like a daily brief feature now that I have.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  It's so bad.

• 48:40David Imel?

  I actually think, mine's been really good.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  I've been waiting for it to get good.

• 48:44David Imel?

  Really?

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Every day I read my daily brief and I just shake my head.

• 48:46David Imel?

  Mine is like so weirdly good.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  What is yours? Do you use it too?

• 48:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, mine is-

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Tell me what's in your daily brief. Cause mine is just like, here's some emails you got. And I'm like, yeah, I read those already this morning.

• 48:56David Imel?

  Oh, wow. No.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  What do you use? What is your daily brief?

• 48:58David Imel?

  Mine comes to me when I wake up.

• 48:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Mine gets, okay, yeah, so it shows up in the morning. But often I've, I've dismissed a bunch of emails from the night before and it's telling me about those again.

• 49:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  And it's telling me to take actions on things that are emails that I'm already gonna do, cause I read my emails.

• 49:14David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  So what does yours do?

• 49:16David Imel?

  Mine's like, oh, this thing that you bought on eBay finally shipped, here's the tracking number.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Because of the email?

• 49:21David Imel?

  Uh, yeah.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:23David Imel?

  But like, I don't know, that might be buried in my, I just like having it all in one place. And it's like-

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Like your inbox.

• 49:30David Imel?

  No, but not everything, no, no, no, because not everything in my life is in my email. Right? It mixes in things that happen in my email and in my calendar and in like my Google Drive. Stuff like that, or in my Google Tasks.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  You know what's been weirdly better?

• 49:47David Imel?

  What?

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Is I've been using Dia, and this is not an ad for them, but the browser. And because I have Google Docs open and I've given access to stuff, it knows what docs I've been working on and it's seen my calendar and it knows this other stuff. And the daily brief that pops up in the morning from Dia is often more, more variety. Like it knows what documents I've been working on. It's like, here's some stuff, like it knows some sources to help you finish this dope tech video you've been writing.

• 50:12David Imel?

  This is on your phone?

• 50:13Speaker 01

  This is on Dia, the browser on my desktop. So like, that has been more useful because it's not all just emails. It goes, oh, you have some unresolved comments from the Google Doc from Andrew and Harper on this, on this thing you've been writing.

• 50:25David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  That's pretty useful.

• 50:27David Imel?

  As the person leaving those comments.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  But the, the Google one I get every morning is just like a summary of my emails.

• 50:34David Imel?

  Let me, let me tell you my daily brief. Okay. So, okay. So I'm shipping a product to a friend and then they're going to bring it to me. It's just a kind of a complicated thing. And for some reason, it knows the friend that I'm shipping it to. And it tells, so it not only was like, here's your tracking information, but it says, share the tracking information with him.

• 50:57David Imel?

  So that he can bring it to you.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  That's nice.

• 50:59David Imel?

  Which is crazy because I didn't, you know, that's not in the email from eBay. It's kind of a complicated, it's, it's interesting. I don't know how it knows that. Inspect the package that got delivered last night to make sure that nothing got, like, there was no transit damage, which is convenient. Because it knows that something recently got damaged in transit. I think because I like submitted a claim. It's kind of interesting. Um, last night I was trying to transfer from the iPhone Air over to the iPhone Pro Max and it was freezing constantly. So it's like, make sure you resolve the freezing issue, which is, you know, obviously something.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  How does it know that? Cause you're Google searching?

• 51:35David Imel?

  Because I, I asked Gemini once yesterday, like, I'm trying to transfer and it's freezing. Like, what's the best thing to do?

• 51:43David Imel?

  Here's a package that I didn't know was arriving today, where it's like, hey, this thing is arriving today. It should get there, whatever.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  That must be from an email, right?

• 51:50David Imel?

  Upcoming birthdays? Which is, one is on Friday, which I didn't know about. Like, I wouldn't have checked my calendar to like, tried to see that the birthday was happening.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  So I'm just so dialed in my calendar and inbox that this feels redundant to me. But if I wasn't checking my calendar and my inbox.

• 52:05David Imel?

  I do not live in my email at all. And the only, I mean, I use my calendar like crazy, but the only reason I use it is to make sure I'm not double scheduling things when people ask to like, hang out or do something, you know?

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 52:17David Imel?

  So, maybe we just have different, I think for people that live in their email, maybe it's not as.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  It's pretty redundant for me. What does yours do, Adam?

• 52:25Speaker 04

  Mine, I, I'm like a mix. Like, I live in my email, but I also live in my calendar, but I also live in my notes app. Like, I'm all over the place. So my email specifically, the things I pay attention for are appointments, which may or may not reflect on my Google Calendar. But for example, the one that saved me yesterday, actually, was last week, I have a class every Tuesday with a Spanish tutor that I meet on Zoom and we go through it for an hour. We had a miscommunication about scheduling and when we were gonna talk, all this stuff. So that was like a long email thread that, it's all in Spanish, which I'm not great at. So it all like got lost in translation, literally. So yesterday I woke up and the Google Assistant little thing.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Gemini Daily Brief.

• 53:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, Gemini Daily Brief, thank you, was like, oh, don't forget, you have your Spanish class today. And the, the email thread is all in Spanish. And I was like, oh snap, it is today. Like, yeah, let me, let me lock that in my calendar. One o'clock, like, have my calendar, blah, blah. So like, things like that, it was like, things that I would otherwise miss or not really pay attention to.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:23Speaker 04

  Subscriptions that I meant to cancel, but I keep forgetting, like, it'll keep reminding you, like, don't forget, last week you wanted to do this thing.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:30Speaker 04

  And I still see that it's still there.

• 53:32David Imel?

  I like rarely check my email, so honestly, I should check it more, but honestly, like, it's sending, telling me that things are arriving today is that I've, that I've ordered that I just didn't know about is very helpful, especially since packages get stolen from my apartment like all the time. Yeah, so yeah, that's okay. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense as someone who's not in the inbox all the time. That this would be useful. I'm looking at my daily brief again. It's literally just, hey, you got an email. Yeah, you want to do anything about that? Here's another email.

• 54:01David Imel?

  And yeah, it's not really pulling from anywhere other than email.

• 54:03Speaker 04

  How are you guys finding your daily brief?

• 54:05David Imel?

  It's in the Gemini app. Yeah, it's near the top. If you open the sidebar. Yeah, you can also get a notification for it every morning when you wake up.

• 54:12Speaker 04

  That's what I get, and I didn't realize I could just go to the Gemini app to see it.

• 54:15David Imel?

  Yeah, okay, yeah. Dial in your new podcast room layout.

• 54:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, modify or confirm your chewy auto ship order. Still have to do that. So you completely forgot about that. Review GitHub app Claude requests for system permissions. Should probably check that. Sounds important.

• 54:33David Imel?

  Sounds important to me. I'm just saying, I think it's, I think it's quite good and it's gonna be interesting to see how Apple, like what data Apple allows their local models to collect and like use to actually be helpful. Cause Google, Google has never pretended to be about privacy whatsoever. They're more like, actually just give us all our data and we will give you useful features. And Apple is like, we don't look at anything. So it's just gonna be, it's gonna be different. But I'm interested. I'm quite interested in what they do next week in that, in that use case. Obviously, they're gonna update all of the OSs. So literally no idea what they're gonna do for the watch.

• 55:12David Imel?

  You know, it's like, it seems like every year they come up with a new metric, a new health metric that I didn't know existed. And they add a new sensor yet because they need to sell a new watch. So that's strange.

• 55:24Speaker 04

  I feel like the last two years, was it the last two years this where they're like, this is the biggest update to watch OS?

• 55:30David Imel?

  Oh, watch OS 10, yeah.

• 55:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, and it was like nothing.

• 55:33David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  Watch it just come out of nowhere and be like sick this year.

• 55:38David Imel?

  Yeah, I really want them to, oh yes, yeah, that's a great, yeah. Like one new watch face, one new sensor.

• 55:44Speaker 04

  Snoopy.

• 55:45David Imel?

  Or honestly, they could probably just Sherlock Bevel.

• 55:49David Imel?

  Bevel is the like.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Actually, yeah.

• 55:51David Imel?

  Yeah. So if you don't know what Bevel is, Bevel is like the Whoop. It's an app that you use that takes your Apple Watch data and it turns it into Whoop for a hundred dollars a year.

• 56:03Andrew Manganelli?

  It's only a hundred dollars for the AI features. I figured someone posted on our subreddit, the majority of the stats are just free. Subscriptions, AI features.

• 56:11David Imel?

  That's cool. Okay, that's even better. And so Apple has a real opportunity to kind of make, especially the Ultra, like make it a hardcore one.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Maybe this ties into Siri. Maybe Siri is a fitness coach.

• 56:23David Imel?

  Based on your health data?

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Siri looks at all of this fitness data in the health app and becomes a chatable, actionable like coach for beginners to understand like, hey, you have trends. Like you can always open the health app and look at all these numbers and graphs and I don't know what to do with those a lot of times, but maybe Siri is like a little.

• 56:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Can Siri even set two timers and you wanted to tell you how you should.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Well, we're gonna get a revamped Siri. It's gonna be the new Gemini Siri. It's gonna be good allegedly.

• 56:50David Imel?

  Is it two years late now? Or is it three?

• 56:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Or I guess it's.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Announced that.

• 56:54Andrew Manganelli?

  A year and a half late, right?

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, announced almost two years ago.

• 56:57David Imel?

  Okay, a year and a half late.

• 56:58Andrew Manganelli?

  To be for the next iPhone launch, so half a year later.

• 57:02David Imel?

  I hope they make McCoast Tahoe better. Apparently there was a leaked name for the new OS version and it's potentially called Big Bear, which is a lake in California.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Like macOS?

• 57:13David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Big Bear.

• 57:14David Imel?

  Big Bear.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Big Bear.

• 57:16David Imel?

  Big Bear.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Big Bear.

• 57:19Speaker 03

  I'm realizing that.

• 57:20David Imel?

  Big Bear is, yeah, it's a great lake.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  I'm realizing not everyone knows about Big Bear.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  It's not a great.

• 57:24David Imel?

  I know, it's a California.

• 57:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, wow.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  There's a lot of stuff.

• 57:27David Imel?

  Running out of popular things.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  I mean, a lot of people didn't know about Tahoe either.

• 57:30David Imel?

  Correct.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:31Speaker 03

  I just, I feel like when you live in California, everyone's always talking about Big Bear.

• 57:34David Imel?

  Yeah, people go to Big Bear to like vacation.

• 57:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, Big Bear.

• 57:38David Imel?

  It's awesome, it's an awesome lake.

• 57:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait a second, are you guys from California?

• 57:42Speaker 01

  This is how fast they ran out of stuff, right? They had all the Snow Leopard, Cheetah, Puma, all those, right? Then they got to California stuff for OS ten dot nine. Okay, Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan.

• 57:52David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Okay, great.

• 57:53David Imel?

  California.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Sierra. Hi Sierra.

• 57:56David Imel?

  California, California.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Mojave.

• 57:58David Imel?

  California.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Catalina.

• 57:59David Imel?

  California.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Big Sur. Now we're just obscure. Monterey.

• 58:04David Imel?

  Monterey's not obscure.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Ventura.

• 58:06David Imel?

  Ventura is not obscure.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:09Speaker 04

  Sonoma, I honestly didn't know Ventura was a place.

• 58:11David Imel?

  Because you guys are not from California.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Exactly. Most people aren't from California.

• 58:16David Imel?

  I know, but then actually, Apple is.

• 58:19Speaker 03

  Statistically, in the United States.

• 58:20David Imel?

  Actually, yeah.

• 58:21Speaker 03

  Most people are from California.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  No, no. Most people are aware of California, but not intimately aware of all the things. Like, I think we've run out of the popular, I mean, let's name it after a city, but these are generally like, you know, pretty places in California.

• 58:38David Imel?

  Marquez, according to Google.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Which is cool, isn't that better?

• 58:40Speaker 03

  According to AI overview, 12% of all Americans are born in California.

• 58:45Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, and 80% aren't.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Very few.

• 58:47Speaker 03

  I think it's more than anywhere else.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Uh, no, it's not.

• 58:50David Imel?

  I think it is.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's top three.

• 58:53David Imel?

  It's probably top one.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  It's probably two.

• 58:56David Imel?

  I think it's number one.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  How many people live in New York State?

• 58:59Speaker 03

  A lot less than California.

• 59:01David Imel?

  Oh, less than California.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  What about Texas?

• 59:03Speaker 03

  Less, 8 million less than California.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 59:05David Imel?

  Yeah, California.

• 59:06Andrew Manganelli?

  It's probably California.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Anyway, I'm just saying like, these are all beautiful places. I agree. And the videos that they do to, you know, Craig's gonna get on stage and say, "Our crack marketing team." He's gonna say that.

• 59:16David Imel?

  That's true.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Word for word. And he's gonna announce this new thing and there's gonna be a very pretty video of it. And people from California are gonna recognize it from the video before they say the name. They'd be like, "Oh my god, it's Big Bear." And people are gonna be like, "What's Big Bear?"

• 59:28David Imel?

  You know what I hope they do?

• 59:29Speaker 01

  And then it's gonna be.

• 59:29David Imel?

  The California state flag is a bear. So I hope, I hope they like zoom out of the flag and it's a bear and then they do a flyover of Big Bear Lake.

• 59:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, did they tease this like four years ago and that bear broke into that guy's house in the Washington?

• 59:45Speaker 01

  That's a big bear. Yeah.

• 59:47David Imel?

  That could be one too.

• 59:48Andrew Manganelli?

  So RTX Spark.

• 59:50David Imel?

  RTX Spark.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Speaking of big.

• 59:52Speaker 03

  Wait a second, that's not in California.

• 59:55David Imel?

  Don't you know RTX Spark in California? Uh, okay, so, Apple, a number of years ago, 2020, released the M1 series processors. Big deal, big change, ARM-based, changed the world, okay?

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Been chasing that high ever since.

• 1:00:09David Imel?

  Everyone's been chasing that high. Microsoft's been chasing that high, Qualcomm's been chasing that high. They can never seem to do it, because Windows just sucks. Unfortunately, it is, it is truly not good.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20David Imel?

  Uh, because they need backwards compatibility for like 100 years. So, Nvidia, uh, multi-trillion dollar company, what do they do?

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Ever heard of them?

• 1:00:29David Imel?

  You might not have heard of them.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  They're the big bear in the room.

• 1:00:31David Imel?

  They're the biggest bear in the room. What they did was, they made a competitor to the M1. It's called the RTX Spark, uh, superchip. It's effectively a laptop slash, you know, desktop PC version of the DGX Spark from last year, which was a personal dev kit AI box that combines CPU, GPU, all-in-one chip. Now, they're gonna put this thing in laptops, which is pretty crazy. We don't know, really, any performance, uh, we don't really know any pricing.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  We just have numbers.

• 1:01:04David Imel?

  We have a lot of numbers.

• 1:01:05Andrew Manganelli?

  David, it has all-day battery life?

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Up to. Up to all day.

• 1:01:10David Imel?

  See, I mean, it is a 3-nanometer process, so maybe it'll be okay with, uh, with efficiency. But, yeah, it's got 20 CPU cores, 6,144 GPU cores. They say it can have up to RTX 50/70 equivalent graphics. We don't know if that's the 50/70 on the desktop, or the 50/70 on the laptop, which are-

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  When they don't specify, you can probably assume it's the lesser.

• 1:01:33David Imel?

  Probably assume, uh, up to 128 gigabytes of unified memory, but it starts at 16 gigs of unified memory. All-day battery life, built-in partner, built-in partnership with MediaTek. Uh, one pet-a-flop of AI compute, 600 gigabytes per second bandwidth, or maybe that's gigabits? I didn't, I'm not sure if I read it correctly.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Gigabits.

• 1:01:52David Imel?

  Uh, Jensen talked a lot about this being a platform for agents. Um, he said agents a lot.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:02:00David Imel?

  He used that word many times. He said, "There are only a billion people, but there are so many more agents." I'm serious about this.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Make sure you pronounce it very carefully.

• 1:02:12David Imel?

  I also don't know why he said only a billion people because I think there's about eight billion people.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:17David Imel?

  But yeah.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Okay, and what my take on this?

• 1:02:19David Imel?

  Let's go.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Based on what I've seen.

• 1:02:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  You know, we got this announcement, we got them focusing very heavily on AI and agents and how, you know, with up to 128 gigs of unified memory, you can run all these local large language models and do all this stuff and execute all these tasks and have even these optimizations. They talked about Adobe with like special versions, obviously if CUDA cores, it's Nvidia, but special versions of this new Adobe software where you can have it make stuff for you in the creative suite. Crazy agents happening on your computer. My take, basically, which is probably based on how little time I spend in this PC world is the window for how good or bad this could be is

• 1:03:01David Imel?

  Good one.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  enormous. No pun intended. But the window for how high the ceiling could be or how low the floor could be is huge.

• 1:03:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  I think how bad it could be is, okay, we don't know how bad like the base chip is. Okay, starting at 16 gigs unified memory, you got a bunch of cores and obviously a whole bunch of bandwidth, 3 nanometer process. And then it's just, you know, base, just replacing the Intel chip that you would have had level and that's okay. And maybe it's a little too expensive. The ceiling is like, it is as good as the Apple silicon chips and it's better because of all the optimizations and the CUDA cores and it has all this local, you know, processing available, all this AI for all the agents are going to run. So it's better for that sort of stuff. So the, the window, and obviously it runs Windows, so like however into that you are, the window for how good or bad this could be is huge to me.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  So I am, I'm going to wait to actually get my hands on it. They announced a whole bunch of laptop OEMs are going to be making these RTX Spark laptops and they're all very thin and very powerful, very premium looking. They all scream high price.

• 1:04:06David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  But they haven't announced any specs or prices or benchmarks yet. So I'm just going to wait until we get some in hand and actually use them, benchmark them and see how good they actually are.

• 1:04:18David Imel?

  The DGX Spark last year was announced at $3,000. When it came out, it was $4,000 and then within a few months, it became $4,600. And then, for some reason, the Dell version was $6,300. So, yeah, they're probably going to be pretty expensive. Again, we don't really know anything about battery life. The DGX Spark pulled 140 watts from the wall. Hopefully, it doesn't pull that much. It's gonna be scaled down a lot.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Linus is saying something about 150 watts and then the battery life not...

• 1:04:49David Imel?

  That lasts like two hours.

• 1:04:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, he was like, the math isn't mathing here, but like all of it, because this is all at Computex, right?

• 1:04:56David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:56Andrew Manganelli?

  And like...

• 1:04:57David Imel?

  Well, there was Computex and then there was Nvidia had their own thing. And then there was also Microsoft Build, which happened like right after.

• 1:05:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 1:05:03David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I mean, they announced in it the Microsoft Surface Ultra, which is a 15-inch mini LED touchscreen. You know, the largest haptic trackpad in the Surface ever.

• 1:05:14Andrew Manganelli?

  One thing that was kind of...

• 1:05:15David Imel?

  Looks exactly like a MacBook Pro, by the way.

• 1:05:17Andrew Manganelli?

  I saw that it also just looks exactly like a Microsoft Surface Laptop. It's looked like, except maybe a tad boxier, like thicker and less of a wedge shape. But I just think it's looked like a Surface for, like that for a while. The Verge said that, like, looked exactly like a MacBook. And I was like, it also looks just like a...

• 1:05:36David Imel?

  More like a MacBook, but maybe I'm wrong. Surface Ultra is also a funny name. I mean, yeah, huge trackpad, black keyboard, thin bezels.

• 1:05:44Andrew Manganelli?

  One thing I thought was interesting that Tom Warren said is, so it's got USB-C, HDMI, full-size SD headphone jack. But there's an USB-C port on the right that he says looks a little bit larger. And when he asked the Microsoft employee, they just smiled and said they'd have more to share later.

• 1:05:58David Imel?

  Which to me, sounds like Surface Connect port.

• 1:06:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Like a fast charger.

• 1:06:02David Imel?

  I guess, like, remember how the old Surface devices had that, like, detachable one?

• 1:06:07Andrew Manganelli?

  It was essentially always like this weird, like, long, I don't know, flat piece that would go into it and be like a proprietary fast charger. But you could also charge it with USB-C on a different port.

• 1:06:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, that was my guess, too.

• 1:06:20David Imel?

  It might be a breakaway USB-C, like, port.

• 1:06:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Interesting.

• 1:06:24David Imel?

  Yeah, so it could, it could have the magnetic capabilities, but also be USB-C. Which would be cool.

• 1:06:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I think it's just charging.

• 1:06:32David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:32Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know. I don't think it's anything that cool despite him smiling and laughing and being like, you'll find out later this year.

• 1:06:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, this is all, you know, this is Windows and ARM again. We've seen it.

• 1:06:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:45Andrew Manganelli?

  Surface has done it with Nvidia, though, being at the forefront and worth a

• 1:06:51David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:51Andrew Manganelli?

  piss load of money.

• 1:06:52David Imel?

  Yeah, there is a higher chance.

• 1:06:54Andrew Manganelli?

  For sure.

• 1:06:55David Imel?

  There's a higher chance this works because Nvidia has a lot more to lose than like Microsoft and Qualcomm did.

• 1:07:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:02David Imel?

  The thing that people are really upset at, though, is that there is not Linux support right now. And many, many developers use Linux. And so everyone being forced to use Windows is not making people happy.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that could be a future thing. I mean, I expect them to listen to their audience at some point and maybe expand support, but yeah.

• 1:07:22Andrew Manganelli?

  The response to Linus seemed very like, we are not thinking about that right now. We have a lot of other things to worry about before we're going to worry about Linux.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Totally fair. They definitely had to launch this first and make sure it goes smoothly before doing anything else.

• 1:07:35David Imel?

  Yeah, so there's like a million questions that we're gonna not have answered until we actually get units of these things in-house.

• 1:07:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Yep, which is later this year. Like, we're a while away from figuring any of this stuff out.

• 1:07:47David Imel?

  For sure. Maybe before Siri. We'll see.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Place your bets.

• 1:07:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Before GTA 6.

• 1:07:53David Imel?

  Yeah, before GTA 6 or my Streetlight Manifest album.

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  I'm weirdly like excited about this because there's a lot of like, you know, advanced, high production, like creative workflows that more and more people are adopting. We were talking about this in the car this morning, David, like adopting these like very sort of slim local models to take care of like one task in a really complicated production workflow. And, you know, with all the extra ports and the big trackpad on this Microsoft Surface, I could see this being like a weirdly useful laptop with the asterisk being if this Nvidia graphics engine has access to all the like Nvidia specific graphics.

• 1:08:36David Imel?

  It does.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  Processes.

• 1:08:38David Imel?

  Yeah, Jetson made a big deal about the fact that this chipset supports literally everything Nvidia has ever made.

• 1:08:43Speaker 03

  So the idea like. These are like very hyper-specific applications, but I could see a lot of like post-production workflows or like computers that run concert visuals or like things like that, being able to do like really unique, powerful things on this laptop if it's like not [BLEEP], which unfortunately like it seems like they all end up being.

• 1:09:07Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't think this is gonna be [BLEEP].

• 1:09:09Speaker 03

  I don't think so either.

• 1:09:10Andrew Manganelli?

  It's supposed to run through Windows though, and as a Windows user,

• 1:09:14Andrew Manganelli?

  we had to do this thing with a Dell monitor for a video we're making where it has a KVM and I'm switching between it. Setting up the Dell drivers for the KVM of this Dell monitor took me longer on the Windows PC than it did on the Mac for just like it kept failing and then just extracting it and actually downloading it literally took like 10 times as long. And I was messaging Marques like, I'm losing my mind here. It was a Dell XPS laptop I was using that was like hurting trying to install Dell drivers.

• 1:09:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:46Andrew Manganelli?

  It was infuriating.

• 1:09:47David Imel?

  Damn.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  I want to be optimistic. I want to, I want to see when they come out. Hopefully we get these, these benchmarks going.

• 1:09:53David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Speaker 03

  Thank you for the big trackpad.

• 1:09:56David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:56Speaker 03

  All laptops need a giant trackpad.

• 1:09:58David Imel?

  I agree. I agree. The question sort of becomes like Apple has become the de facto kind of AI agent computers because they're like the best bang for buck right now. But if another company comes in and is optimized for that stuff, are people gonna start moving over to, you know, agent-specific hardware?

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  If it's built for whatever you plan on doing.

• 1:10:20David Imel?

  Yeah, whatever that means.

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  And can they safeguard, like I think another reason the Apple platform is so popular for vibe coding and agents and stuff like that is because it's, you can really monkey around a lot in terminal and with bash commands and stuff and feel confident you're not gonna delete some system file that renders your computer completely broken in a way that I feel a lot less confident on a Windows system.

• 1:10:44David Imel?

  Satya did specifically say they're bringing a lot of that stuff to Windows now, though. Like they're bringing Homebrew to Windows.

• 1:10:52David Imel?

  He knows how to build.

• 1:10:55Speaker 04

  It's a, how? How?

• 1:10:57David Imel?

  Ask him.

• 1:10:58Speaker 04

  That doesn't make sense. I thought Homebrew was a Mac thing. I thought it was a Mac repository.

• 1:11:01David Imel?

  He said, "We're bringing a lot of your favorite Mac stuff to Windows so that you can..."

• 1:11:06Speaker 04

  Oh, how the tables have turned, my friends. For my whole life, it was like, "Oh, this is really sweet, but you can't do it on Mac, so I gotta own a way. Oh, I love this program, but it's Windows." Now, look at the Windows crowd, baby. Look at them crawl over to our side.

• 1:11:21David Imel?

  I have the turntables. Well, we won't know about that stuff until later this year, so a whole lot of hoopla. Hoopla! Hoopla! But while we're waiting for later this year to roll around, there's a thing that happens every single gosh darn week, baby.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Right on time.

• 1:11:37Speaker 04

  Hoopla!

• 1:11:38David Imel?

  Oh, trivia.

• 1:11:40Speaker 04

  This was another great Ellis question that I'm just gonna steal from him. So, while Google Plus didn't stick around, one feature built into Google Plus eventually became a standalone product in 2013. What product is that?

• 1:11:53Speaker 03

  Like, that two Google Plus questions, one episode.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  Do I actually say that one?

• 1:11:58Andrew Manganelli?

  I think I actually know that.

• 1:11:59David Imel?

  Google Plus, say it again. I need to, I'm gonna get this one right.

• 1:12:01Speaker 04

  While Google Plus did not stick around.

• 1:12:04David Imel?

  Correct.

• 1:12:05Speaker 04

  One feature built into Google Plus eventually became a standalone product in 2013. What product was that?

• 1:12:12Andrew Manganelli?

  I think I actually know that.

• 1:12:13David Imel?

  Can I ask a...

• 1:12:14Andrew Manganelli?

  No.

• 1:12:19David Imel?

  Just a little extra information.

• 1:12:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 1:12:22David Imel?

  Does that product still exist?

• 1:12:24Speaker 04

  It kinda changed its name?

• 1:12:27Andrew Manganelli?

  With every second, we're getting closer to spoiling the answer.

• 1:12:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is a hard, a hard one, because I do think technically it's the same thing.

• 1:12:34David Imel?

  Oh, I see what you're saying.

• 1:12:35Speaker 04

  But they did change its name and make it a different thing now.

• 1:12:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I think you're giving enough hints.

• 1:12:39Speaker 03

  Everybody shut up. Everybody shut up.

• 1:12:41Andrew Manganelli?

  This is why you should listen to my now.

• 1:12:43David Imel?

  All right, never mind. Don't have to answer. You don't have to answer. We'll think about it.

• 1:12:47Speaker 04

  I'm gonna answer.

• 1:12:47David Imel?

  We'll think about it.

• 1:12:48Speaker 04

  I'm not losing that point.

• 1:12:49David Imel?

  Yeah, you don't have, I don't, you don't have to answer my question. My question, my clarifying question.

• 1:12:53Speaker 04

  Oh, I see.

• 1:12:53David Imel?

  I'll just, I'll just guess.

• 1:12:54Speaker 04

  Nope, it's dead.

• 1:12:56David Imel?

  Oh, great.

• 1:12:56Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 1:12:57David Imel?

  That doesn't narrow it down at all.

• 1:12:59Speaker 04

  Wait, it's back.

• 1:13:00David Imel?

  And it's dead again. All right, we'll answer at the end. We'll be right back.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. So AI is only as useful as the context it has to work from. But when that context is scattered across tools like threads and DMs, that means your team and your AI agents end up flying kind of blind. That's the problem Jira solves. What's the goal tied to your project? What got decided last week in Slack? Atlassian's teamwork graph pulls all of these pieces together from Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more. So nothing falls through the cracks. With Jira, you can actually share that context with the AI agents you already use, like Claude, Cursor, and GitHub Copilot, assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time digging through endless links and DMs, less time chasing down what got decided and by who, and more time actually shipping. Learn more at jira.com.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  That's J-I-R-A dot com.

• 1:14:00Speaker 05

  Support for the show comes from Google Gemini. You know that moment when curiosity strikes? You're exploring a new city with the family and a sculpture catches your daughter's eye. What is that? Who made it? With Gemini, you can snap a picture and get a fully interactive breakdown of its history, architecture, and even hidden secrets. Gemini is built for moments like that. Whether you're learning something new, solving a problem, or looking for your next favorite thing, Google Gemini is here to help. Download Gemini, Google's AI app, or visit gemini.google.com to learn more.

• 1:14:39Speaker 06

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Welcome back. We got to talk about Microsoft. I stole that from Steve from Gamers Nexus.

• 1:15:15Speaker 04

  I have the comments section.

• 1:15:16David Imel?

  Oh, do they say that?

• 1:15:18Speaker 04

  I made a video about just the problem that Microsoft has with laptops. And most of the comments were just making fun of Microsoft by calling it Microsoft.

• 1:15:26David Imel?

  Damn.

• 1:15:27Speaker 04

  It was solid.

• 1:15:28David Imel?

  Well, well, we got two Microsoft stories for you. The first is that Microsoft is making a Project Solara Agent OS. So if you didn't hear the last part of the podcast, and if you didn't, I don't know. Why are you at this part of the podcast? We talked about Microsoft Build very briefly. Actually, yeah, this might be in a clip, so I don't know. That'd be crazy. But they had Microsoft Build, which is their annual developer conference, similar to Dub Dub, similar to I/O. And they announced some stuff there. One of the things they announced was a new OS called Project Solara. And it's effectively supposed to be an OS built specifically for agents. It's funny, though, because it's Android. Everything is Android at the end of the day.

• 1:16:09Speaker 04

  When I heard this, I thought of Rabbit OS.

• 1:16:11David Imel?

  Yeah. That's kind of what it is.

• 1:16:13Speaker 04

  Same thing.

• 1:16:14David Imel?

  They basically, my take on this is that they are trying to build the future platform, kind of like Meta was trying to do with the Metaverse, because they were mad that Google kind of took the web. And so now they're trying to be the ones that build an OS that can work on various different types of hardware. So they have these images of like, oh, smart glasses, or a smart screen, or a smart this. And they showed off two different concept devices. One was like an Echo-like device, like an Amazon Echo-like device that sits on your desk, has Windows Hello, so you walk up to it, it logs in and whatever. And then you can just talk to it, and you're talking to agents, and agents are doing stuff for you, whatever. They also showed a concept of a smart badge.

• 1:16:59David Imel?

  Now, you might not know what a badge is if you have not worked at one of these mega corps. One of these mega corps gives you a little badge that you wear on your neck that has your name and your ID number.

• 1:17:09Speaker 04

  Oh, like a physical badge?

• 1:17:10David Imel?

  Physical badge.

• 1:17:10Speaker 04

  Like an ID badge?

• 1:17:11David Imel?

  Like an ID badge.

• 1:17:12Speaker 04

  I don't know why I was thinking like a Meta Verified checkmark badge or something.

• 1:17:15David Imel?

  No, not a digital badge.

• 1:17:16Speaker 04

  You mean like an actual badge?

• 1:17:17David Imel?

  Physical badge that helps you scan into different rooms, etc. This one has like your name, your ID on it, whatever, but it also has agents on it. And also has a camera. So they showed off at Build, where the guy that was presenting it basically turned it sideways, and he recorded a video, and then he was like, "Computer!"

• 1:17:36David Imel?

  Cut up a video of this and like, share it to my social media with some cool music.

• 1:17:41Speaker 03

  Bad. No, don't do that.

• 1:17:42Andrew Manganelli?

  It's a phone.

• 1:17:43David Imel?

  It's not, well-

• 1:17:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Your phone can do-

• 1:17:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Andrew Manganelli?

  Just put it on your phone.

• 1:17:47David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Andrew Manganelli?

  And make the badge get you in the door.

• 1:17:50David Imel?

  But the phone can't-

• 1:17:51Andrew Manganelli?

  That's all the-

• 1:17:51David Imel?

  But the phone can't do it yet, cuz Siri's not here yet, you know what I'm saying? And Gemini, I don't think Gemini can like, cut up a video, I don't know.

• 1:17:58Speaker 04

  I don't think so either, but-

• 1:17:59David Imel?

  I don't know.

• 1:17:59Speaker 04

  This is making me think that what if, going back to Dub Dub predictions and rumors and stuff, if it becomes a Siri OS? Because Apple seems to be the only one that doesn't-

• 1:18:08David Imel?

  Apple's not gonna make a new OS just for Siri.

• 1:18:10Speaker 03

  That's a little confusing.

• 1:18:11Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know.

• 1:18:12David Imel?

  They're not gonna do it.

• 1:18:12Speaker 04

  Because Android has Gemini that talks across all their platforms. Microsoft just announced this thing where all their agents, it's like, different form factors, doesn't matter, the agent will talk to it.

• 1:18:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:22Speaker 04

  Apple doesn't have that yet.

• 1:18:23David Imel?

  It's iOS.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  I think Siri might act like that, but it, they, I don't think they would call it an OS.

• 1:18:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  They share a lot of-

• 1:18:30David Imel?

  Just to avoid confusion.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:32Speaker 03

  They'd call it an ontology. That was a Palantir joke. Sorry, sorry.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Ontal.

• 1:18:38Speaker 03

  Like, six people listening to this laughed really hard.

• 1:18:40David Imel?

  Eesh, okay. Um, anyway. I already said it, but yeah, they wanna be like, the platform of the future. And, uh, I don't know, Microsoft has announced a lot of demo hardware in the past that they just never release, so that's a possibility. But yeah, just wanted to bring that up.

• 1:18:58Speaker 04

  But this doesn't seem like hardware to me.

• 1:19:00David Imel?

  Well, it's, it's, yeah, it's, they're, they, they are making concept devices to show what you could do with this agent OS that they're building on top of Android.

• 1:19:08Speaker 04

  But the thing that they're showing off is the agent OS.

• 1:19:10David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:10Speaker 04

  It's not like the hardware itself, right?

• 1:19:11David Imel?

  Yeah, we'll, we'll see if they even ship the agent OS.

• 1:19:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

• 1:19:14David Imel?

  Is my question, cuz it's Microsoft. Uh, okay, one more Microsoft story. Microsoft is in the process of shutting down all employees using Claude code for work by June 30th. Very funny. Uh, people have been thinking about this for a long time. At what point do tokens become more expensive than humans? Turns out, we're reaching that point right now.

• 1:19:35Andrew Manganelli?

  They've bedrun that.

• 1:19:36Speaker 03

  It's not like they're gonna force them to use Codex or-

• 1:19:39David Imel?

  No.

• 1:19:39Speaker 03

  Or the, uh, the, the, the, uh, uh, uh-

• 1:19:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, so-

• 1:19:43Speaker 03

  What's the, what's the Microsoft one called?

• 1:19:44Andrew Manganelli?

  It's GitHub Copilot CLI.

• 1:19:46David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Andrew Manganelli?

  It's like-

• 1:19:47Speaker 03

  They're just like, no, no bots.

• 1:19:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, so, this, what happened was in December, they gave everybody Claude subscriptions, like, pretty much whoever wanted it, there. And it seems like- Everyone was only using Claude and not.

• 1:20:01David Imel?

  Copilot.

• 1:20:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Copilot.

• 1:20:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:03Andrew Manganelli?

  So, one, the reason a lot of people think this is because of how much is expensive, because of how expensive it is, because it's ending on June 30th, which is the end of Microsoft's fiscal year. Big red flag of like, this is probably costing us a metric ton. But also, it is a straight competitor. Not all employees are losing Claude completely because Copilot uses Claude inside of it.

• 1:20:26David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:27Andrew Manganelli?

  So they'll still be able to like, be connected to it somewhat, but most likely because it is a competitor and because it's costing so much money.

• 1:20:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:35Andrew Manganelli?

  It's why they're stopping them from using it. But like David said, we're getting to this point of what costs more agents or people? And like Uber already just ditched like all of their, their AI coding.

• 1:20:46David Imel?

  I mean, Microsoft also has Copilot and they have GitHub Copilot. And they announced at Build, a new version of Terminal, which is, they call a smart Terminal, which has GitHub Copilot built into the Terminal. And so, I mean, Microsoft would be a little hypocritical if they were not using their own.

• 1:21:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:04David Imel?

  You know, agents. They also announced their own language models at Build. So I think, you know, it's a combination of this is probably getting insanely expensive. And also, we spent billions of dollars to make this ourselves. Why are we not using it ourselves?

• 1:21:17Andrew Manganelli?

  So this is getting insanely expensive in two different ways?

• 1:21:20David Imel?

  Yeah. So the question becomes, how far behind Anthropic are they in terms of the quality of their language models? That's going to be a big question. And if it slows them down, do they need to be slowed down? I don't know.

• 1:21:31Andrew Manganelli?

  It'd be really funny.

• 1:21:32David Imel?

  I don't know of anything that Microsoft's done significantly in the last few years. So who knows?

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  I haven't used Bing in a minute. Remember when Bing got crazy?

• 1:21:38David Imel?

  For one day.

• 1:21:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Someone in our subreddit posted a really funny, they were like, uh, it was the Bing Copilot overview, asking about me and it said, I immigrated here in like 1891 and that I also host a podcast called Waveform.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  Holy, holy. It said, call him unk, but like really, really old.

• 1:21:56David Imel?

  That's hella unk. Holy, that's crazy. Uh, speaking of the stuff, Anthropic also just confidentially filed to IPO, but then they tweeted about it. So it wasn't too confidential, I suppose. And it's one of the biggest IPOs. The estimations are just under a trillion dollars. Another IPO that might happen soon is the, the SpaceX one that is stealing from everyone's 401ks. That's a very complex topic. I watched like five videos about that yesterday.

• 1:22:21Andrew Manganelli?

  No, it's not. That's all there is to it.

• 1:22:22David Imel?

  Well, yeah, it's about, so, okay, I'll tell you.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Is there a TLW?

• 1:22:27David Imel?

  Yes. Well, yes. Okay. So basically, when you invest in an index fund, an index fund is run by a company, right? So like Dow is like, is like a company that collects these index funds. And they basically, you know, you're forced to invest in the companies that they put on the index fund that they are tracking.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  You're not picking companies, you're picking a fund. They invest a bunch of companies for you.

• 1:22:53David Imel?

  And so what has happened is that Twitter, that got turned into X, got merged into XAI, right? Because they were out of money. Then XAI got merged into SpaceX because XAI was out of money and they were billion, burning a billion dollars a day.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  They seem not related, but okay.

• 1:23:11Andrew Manganelli?

  It's a Russian nesting doll situation.

• 1:23:13David Imel?

  It's a nesting doll. Yeah, okay. So.

• 1:23:15Andrew Manganelli?

  There is something related. Elon Musk.

• 1:23:18Speaker 03

  You know, SpaceX is like a reasonably profitable company and XAI just burns cash at an insane rate. And so SpaceX, and so Elon was like, if I buy XAI with SpaceX, I, I don't lose any money because I'm paying myself for this. And all of XAI's losses gets absorbed into SpaceX shareholders. So now the losses are their problem.

• 1:23:37David Imel?

  Yeah. And so now SpaceX is filing to go public for like a lot of money. The problem, okay, the crazy thing here is that usually when a company goes public, if it's like a very large company, there's sort of this cooldown period that usually is about a year before.

• 1:23:55Speaker 03

  Seasoning.

• 1:23:56David Imel?

  It's called seasoning. Yeah. Where, yeah, where a stock, basically, the market has to see like, is the stock gonna like go crazy and then dip or then blah, blah, blah, blah? These index funds will not adopt the stock for a year and that's just been a formality, basically. It's kind of a rule that they use. But Elon basically convinced one of these index fund, like the Dow or whatever.

• 1:24:19Speaker 03

  The NASDAQ.

• 1:24:20David Imel?

  The NASDAQ 100 to waive that formality so that the SpaceX stock will immediately get, within, I think 15 days or so, get injected into all of these index funds. So now, if you have a 401k that tracks the NASDAQ 100, you automatically have to invest in SpaceX.

• 1:24:43Speaker 03

  The whole idea is that Elon and everyone at SpaceX knows that SpaceX is the most overvalued public company in the world. Like, they lose not quite a billion dollars a month, but in the hundreds of millions of dollars a month.

• 1:24:56David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:57Speaker 03

  And they're valued as like one of the most valuable companies in the world, right? Despite just like-

• 1:25:01David Imel?

  Is it SpaceX or XAI?

• 1:25:02Speaker 03

  It's the same company.

• 1:25:03David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:04Speaker 03

  They're-

• 1:25:04David Imel?

  SpaceX AI is the new-

• 1:25:05Speaker 03

  SpaceX, so Elon used SpaceX to buy XAI.

• 1:25:09David Imel?

  Which bought Twitter.

• 1:25:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, so SpaceX, XAI, and Twitter are all the same balance sheet now.

• 1:25:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Speaker 03

  And together, they record about $800 million of losses. I'm gonna fact check that up for the episode, but I believe it's about $800 million of losses a year.

• 1:25:23David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:24Speaker 03

  So the whole plan is, if you can get all of these index funds to automatically buy SpaceX about two weeks after it IPOs, it doesn't have enough time to crash, and that auto pumps the stock to infinity. So when the stock does crash, the people who lose are the people whose retirement accounts auto-invested.

• 1:25:42David Imel?

  And the people who already have the stock in SpaceX AI are the people who invested in Twitter and the people who invested in XAI, which is like a lot of the billionaires who funded the Twitter deal in the beginning, because Elon lost half of the value of Twitter after he bought it because it crashed to half the price.

• 1:25:58Speaker 03

  It's, you know how like in the meme coin strat is you tweet about a meme coin, so a bunch of people buy it, and then you sell off as soon as they buy it?

• 1:26:05David Imel?

  Because you secretly own 80% of the-

• 1:26:08Speaker 03

  That is, that's the plan here, except instead of convincing people to buy it with a tweet-

• 1:26:12David Imel?

  They're being forced to buy it.

• 1:26:13Speaker 03

  They're being, they're literally being forced to buy it.

• 1:26:15David Imel?

  Everyone who has a 401k.

• 1:26:17Speaker 03

  It's like one of the most insane financial plays ever.

• 1:26:20Andrew Manganelli?

  The stock market sucks. It's all fake.

• 1:26:24David Imel?

  Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize that these index funds are companies, and they're not just like things that are sort of set up and managed by the government and are like a, you know, apolitical, amoral, whatever. They're like companies that their whole thing is that they track certain stocks. So, yeah, it's crazy. I would, I would recommend watching some videos on it. It's wild. Um, yeah, and then Anthropic's potentially gonna go public. We'll see if OpenAI goes public. I don't know, man. It's gonna be crazy. If the air bubble does burst, it'll probably happen in the next six months.

• 1:26:55Andrew Manganelli?

  We're speed running, running this whole tech, I feel like. Like, two years ago, we were like, cool, look, Will Smith eating spaghetti or like, made a dinosaur chicken nugget surfing like this. And now we're like, it's too expensive to run anymore.

• 1:27:07David Imel?

  Yeah, so.

• 1:27:08Speaker 04

  Who do you think is gonna go public first? Anthropic or?

• 1:27:11David Imel?

  Anthro- oh, or?

• 1:27:11Speaker 04

  OpenAI?

• 1:27:12David Imel?

  Anthropic. Anthropic before OpenAI, for sure.

• 1:27:14Speaker 03

  I need to correct myself. I said SpaceX was losing about $800 billion a month. I was not even close. In the first three months of this year, they lost 4.3 billion with a B dollars.

• 1:27:25David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:27:25Andrew Manganelli?

  You misspoke for a second, though. You said 800 billion.

• 1:27:27David Imel?

  You mean, do you mean a million?

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Million?

• 1:27:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, sorry. 800 million was an incorrect number. For, in the first three months of 2026, they lost 4.3 billion dollars, despite being, again, in theory, the largest, most valuable IPO in history somehow, so.

• 1:27:44Andrew Manganelli?

  No one knows.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Cause they're betting on the future.

• 1:27:47David Imel?

  Anthropic is worth more than OpenAI now. Did you know that? That's crazy.

• 1:27:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's like, it's all spec- it doesn't matter.

• 1:27:54Andrew Manganelli?

  It all is, all of it is.

• 1:27:56Speaker 03

  Well, in theory, not all of it is. Like, there are companies you can buy whose balance sheets directly reflect their valuation.

• 1:28:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, and they just don't know how to grind.

• 1:28:06David Imel?

  That's true.

• 1:28:06Speaker 03

  No, what they don't know how to do is pay another company to buy 800 million dollars worth of their own product.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  I always found it weird when like, uh, like, we'll see something on stage happen, and then we'll see, like, that night, a story about how the stock price went. Like, will the Ferrari lucha? Yeah. Like, the, the car gets announced, and then they lose 5% of their value overnight.

• 1:28:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  That's just speculation. That's just people going, ah, I see that their future plans for selling this will not work out, so I don't think they're worth as much anymore, so I will sell, or I think it's worth less.

• 1:28:40Speaker 03

  Well, in theory, that's the whole idea of index funds, right? It's like, you can escape the, the volatility.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  The volatility of a single.

• 1:28:48David Imel?

  Certain market, yeah.

• 1:28:49Speaker 03

  The contract sort of falls apart when the company who runs your index fund is like, no, I'm going to make so much money off of your losses.

• 1:28:57David Imel?

  Yeah, well, also, I think Hank Green did a good video about this. Like, the point of an index fund is to escape the volatility of different markets. But when like 80% of the market is AI companies, it's still dangerous to have your money in an index fund now. So it's just, this is not, this is not financial advice.

• 1:29:14Speaker 03

  Not financial advice.

• 1:29:15David Imel?

  Not financial advice.

• 1:29:16Speaker 03

  We should probably cut dangerous, but that's.

• 1:29:18David Imel?

  Yeah, well, that's what he said. I don't know, I'm just quoting him.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  But did he say not financial advice? Several times rapidly into the camera without blinking?

• 1:29:25Speaker 03

  Actually, fun fact, Hank Green is a certified public accountant.

• 1:29:28David Imel?

  Really?

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  But you still don't give public advice.

• 1:29:32David Imel?

  This is not truth advice. Okay.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  It's fine, because the president has a name coin anyway, so.

• 1:29:37David Imel?

  Don't listen to us.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  None of this matters.

• 1:29:38David Imel?

  Don't listen to us. Go, go, go watch people who are very, very well versed in this. I only learned about this last night, so.

• 1:29:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, blame them.

• 1:29:46David Imel?

  Blame them, yes. Okay, well, with that, we're going to wrap it up with trivia. And then next we go up to BBC.

• 1:29:57Speaker 03

  For some reason, you saying wrap it up really makes me want some sort of wrap for lunch.

• 1:30:01David Imel?

  What kind?

• 1:30:01Speaker 03

  Taco Bell? I don't know. Guys, before Google Plus was released, how many, how, before Google Plus, how many social network, how many social networking sites did Google launch? Would you like me to include social media platforms that Google purchased pre-launch or just ones that Google was the launcher of?

• 1:30:25David Imel?

  What were you gonna do? What were you gonna do at the beginning?

• 1:30:28Speaker 03

  I was gonna do.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  Google launched.

• 1:30:30Speaker 03

  Google launched, okay.

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:31David Imel?

  And is it close without going over?

• 1:30:33Speaker 03

  Yes, it is Price is Right rules.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  So then, just the number?

• 1:30:43Speaker 03

  Just the number, I don't need names. And I will fully accept that if you write to me about the one I missed, I will, I will, I will, I will go back and award points.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm, well, if it's Price is Right, I just go with the lower.

• 1:31:00Speaker 03

  And I would also like to make a clarification because there are lots of things that Google did that are sort of like social media platforms that are not, in my opinion, social media platforms.

• 1:31:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, this is based on your opinion?

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  We may debate on this.

• 1:31:10Speaker 03

  I am not including Dodgeball because while that does resemble Foursquare, it was an SMS service and I don't believe an SMS-based service could be

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  I think that's pretty so.

• 1:31:19Speaker 03

  a social network. I am not including Picasso Web because the social features were an afterthought.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 1:31:25David Imel?

  I counted that one.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  It was a photo service.

• 1:31:27Speaker 03

  I am not including Google Open Social because that is a protocol and an API. It is not an accessible platform.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  But it's a Fediverse.

• 1:31:34Speaker 03

  I am not including Google Wave.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:31:37David Imel?

  What's that?

• 1:31:39Speaker 03

  It was sort of like a bulletin board, like.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  That feels like social media, though. To me.

• 1:31:44Speaker 03

  And I am not including Google Buzz.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:31:47David Imel?

  Oh, come on.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  That's social media. That is definitively social media.

• 1:31:51Speaker 03

  You think Google Buzz is social media?

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:53Speaker 03

  Okay, I will include Google Buzz then.

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:55Speaker 03

  All right. How many did you put?

• 1:31:57David Imel?

  Well, I should have been more.

• 1:31:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, I went high.

• 1:32:00Speaker 03

  Did you put 14?

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Okay, we'll see.

• 1:32:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Bro, you made it sound like it was 800.

• 1:32:04Speaker 03

  No. Marquez, what did you put? I put five. Unfortunately, as of my current list, you are one over, unfortunately, because I had four on my list. David, you put?

• 1:32:15David Imel?

  Three.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  Which four did you?

• 1:32:19Speaker 03

  I included Haiku, or I think it's pronounced Haiku, because it starts with a J.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  Sun it?

• 1:32:25Speaker 03

  I did Haiku.

• 1:32:26Andrew Manganelli?

  I spelled Haiku with a J?

• 1:32:28Speaker 03

  It's because it's a cross between the word Haiku and a Finnish word for like short stories. And it was a Twitter clone.

• 1:32:37David Imel?

  Google Haiku?

• 1:32:38Speaker 03

  Wait a second. No, sorry, sorry. Haiku cannot be on this list. Haiku was purchased by Google after it was launched. I take that back. So there are three. There are three. The correct answer is three. So David nailed it right on the money.

• 1:32:52Speaker 03

  Oh no, but we put Google Buzz on the list.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah Buzz?

• 1:32:55Speaker 03

  Oh yeah Buzz, Google Friend Connect and Orkut. And I had never heard of Orkut, but Google really tried to make it happen and it only took off in Brazil.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Can I read you a description of one and you can tell me if it's social media or not?

• 1:33:06Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  The description is "A mobile app for group discussions and messaging developed by Google. It was intended to compete with Slack, but it was a content sharing platform where users can create a space, invite their friends for discussions, share videos, images, text and other media."

• 1:33:21Speaker 03

  I'm open to it, but what year did it launch?

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, 2016.

• 1:33:24Speaker 03

  That is after Google Plus.

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  Got it. And then, okay, what else was I thinking? I like Google Wave as social media, but I still lose anyway. Okay.

• 1:33:34Speaker 03

  If you are upset with the way I adjudicated this question, I encourage you to tweet at me or leave a comment.

• 1:33:40Andrew Manganelli?

  You can really stick it to them by subscribing.

• 1:33:43Speaker 03

  Dude, if you subscribed, I would hate that so much.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  So I got the point?

• 1:33:49Speaker 04

  You got the point. And with that, you now are at 30 points.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:33:53Speaker 04

  Andrew at 25, Marquez with 26.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:58Andrew Manganelli?

  That's closer than I thought.

• 1:34:00Speaker 04

  Cool.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  It's a close game.

• 1:34:01David Imel?

  How did you get so many points?

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  I think Mariah got a few.

• 1:34:04David Imel?

  Did a crazy run or something?

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  No, people, when he was out, people got points.

• 1:34:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Hell yeah.

• 1:34:10Speaker 04

  Alright.

• 1:34:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Team game.

• 1:34:11Speaker 04

  Question number two.

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:13Speaker 04

  While Google Plus didn't stick around, one feature built into Google Plus eventually became a standalone product in 2013. What was it?

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  I mean, Google Plus didn't have very many features, but it did have these. It had the entirety of photography community on it. These. I'm trying to figure out which one stuck around. Oh, I am.

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  I, I think I'm wrong, but I'm gonna try it.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  Because I don't know the name. Bing.

• 1:34:46Speaker 04

  All right, Flip and Reed, what do you guys got?

• 1:34:48Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm worried there's a really stupid answer.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  That's what it... Okay, we all said different things.

• 1:34:54Speaker 04

  What? Four Square. Angie, you just had a completely different company, so you go first.

• 1:34:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Four Square.

• 1:35:00David Imel?

  That's not a Google product.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  I was torn between Circles, or whatever the chat built into it was called, and I ended up just going with Circles.

• 1:35:10Speaker 04

  Nope.

• 1:35:11David Imel?

  Hangouts.

• 1:35:12Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 1:35:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  So that was what the chat was called. I used Hangouts.

• 1:35:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Rip Hangouts.

• 1:35:17David Imel?

  Nice job there.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 1:35:19Andrew Manganelli?

  I loved Google Hangouts.

• 1:35:20David Imel?

  Which version?

• 1:35:21Speaker 03

  The Google guy over here.

• 1:35:22Andrew Manganelli?

  The...

• 1:35:23David Imel?

  Remember when they integrated Hangouts with SMS, and then they took it out, and then they put it back, and then they took it out again?

• 1:35:27Speaker 01

  It was gonna be my unified messaging app so many times.

• 1:35:30Speaker 03

  So many times!

• 1:35:31Speaker 01

  And then it wasn't.

• 1:35:33Andrew Manganelli?

  I used it as a little chat inside of Gmail.

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  No, I knew better. I knew Google wasn't gonna stick with it. Because when it finally got it, I forgot what phone was coming out, but I was like... It was like preloaded on the phones, and it was sitting in the dock, and I was like, "Oh, I could just use this." But I knew better.

• 1:35:46David Imel?

  The one that really broke my heart was ALO. Because ALO had such cool UI, and like the animations, and like the stickers were so awesome.

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's because they were trying to copy iMessage and FaceTime, so they made ALO and Duo.

• 1:35:58Speaker 04

  And they kept the worst one.

• 1:36:00David Imel?

  Duo sucks.

• 1:36:01Speaker 04

  ALO should have been it.

• 1:36:02David Imel?

  Well, now it's just... I think they integrated Duo into Google.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Now it's just me.

• 1:36:05Speaker 03

  We're not doing this again. We're not doing the Google... The Google Chat Meet ALO Duo Call. We're not...

• 1:36:12David Imel?

  Buzz.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  It's been...

• 1:36:14Speaker 03

  Someone, someone read us out.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Hey, if you guys, if you made it this far, obviously, you're a true fan, and you've listened deep into the podcast, so... Comment "deep" if you made it this far.

• 1:36:26Speaker 03

  And subscribe.

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  And subscribe, because of course, you're probably already subscribed if you're this deep, but thank you for watching, thanks for subscribing, thanks for making it this deep in the pod. We'll catch you guys next week. Peace.

• 1:36:36David Imel?

  That's deep, Marquez.

• 1:36:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Waveform is produced by Adam and Hells, partner with Vox Media Podcast Network, and our track for music.

• 1:36:46Andrew Manganelli?

  It's created by Vansel.

• 1:36:47David Imel?

  Dot com.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  This weekend, my friend came up to me, that I have, that he lives in another town. And...

• 1:37:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Goes to a different school.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  You wouldn't know.