The Sporting Class: A Hostile Takeover, FIFA Bribes & the 2025 Gold Rush

Did Warner Bros. start a war so that its CEO could cash in for courtside seats? Would Mickey Mouse give a fast pass to FIFA? And what did our white-hat hackers learn this year on Rich Guys OnlyFans? John Skipper and David Samson butt heads about sports business — plus invent a new cocktail. • Previously on The Sporting Class: On The Witness Stand at the FIFA Bribery Trial with John Skipper https://pod.link/1685093486/episode/OTUzMjZhZDgtODRkZC0xMWYwLWFjNDUtMmYwYjc5YmFkYzA5 • Subscribe to "Nothing Personal with David Samson" https://pod.link/1483011704 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  You speak much truth there, but you ignore one thing. I worked for the Walt Disney Company, and no matter what you may cynically think, as executives, we were told, "You must behave ethically."

• 0:21Speaker 00

  Right after this ad.

• 0:24Speaker 02

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• 0:54Speaker 03

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• 1:20Speaker 00

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• 2:30Speaker 01

  That is a very welcome, David. It makes me feel almost like you're here.

• 2:35Pablo Torre?

  We're gonna, we're gonna-

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Cleaning the table off.

• 2:37Pablo Torre?

  We're gonna begin where the first sound is gonna be John laughing in response to what David said. We will now, on the record, say that David thinks we're too gross to hang out with right now.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  Well, I think he actually has-

• 2:48Speaker 05

  I've thought that for a long time.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  He has, but there's been no real reason he didn't have to put up with it. He now has a reason that he shouldn't put up with it. He has the help of his family to think about, and we have nothing but support for that.

• 3:04Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Though I do long for the day when you can come back and admonish my personal lack of repulsion to germs and other grotty things.

• 3:17Pablo Torre?

  Hygiene, yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Hygiene.

• 3:19Speaker 05

  So I must say, gentlemen, that I spoke to the lead doctor on this very issue about coming into the studio, because I knew we had this show to do, and she asked me what the state of the studio was, whether or not there were different areas I could be, what is the general, basically, environment? Do people take care of themselves? And when I paused for just a nanosecond, she immediately said, "You shan't be going to the studio." And that was that.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  But you didn't actually cite the specific, personal-

• 3:54Speaker 05

  No.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  -detriments of Pablo Torre or John Skipper.

• 3:58Speaker 05

  I actually did not, John. She didn't ask for names, nor did I give them. The doctors know that I, that I record, and so they are very cognizant of the fact that I go to a studio. De temps en temps. And so the question did come up, and it was a very quick answer when I said that the COVID protocols that used to exist, to the extent they ever did, have long flown out the window.

• 4:25Pablo Torre?

  I just want to be very clear that this is the final sporting class of 2025. This is our year-end spectacular, and what David is referring to is him acting as the responsible father that he clearly is by consulting the doctor in charge of his daughter's health. "Is it safe for me to podcast?" And when the highlight reel of this year spun through his brain, the doctor said, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna cut you off there." The answer is, "F*** no."

• 4:56Speaker 05

  Pretty much how it happened.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Seems like a reasonable decision on her part.

• 5:02Pablo Torre?

  Hard to argue.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  You, my friend, if you ever make the decision not to come in here because of our personal hygiene, we will be highly offended.

• 5:12Speaker 05

  Believe me, I want to be with you guys more than you know. It is incredibly lonely, so thank you. But again, let's not waste a second because now I have my own clock that I'm here and I know where we are already. And we got stuff to cover. So Pablo, take the reins and let's go. You're the number one media personality in the end of the year. You're given every award for being the top guy. Grab the reins and let's go.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  How can they know he's the top media personality for the whole year? The whole year's not up yet. He could have a very bad two weeks.

• 5:48Pablo Torre?

  We could have a very bad next hour at this point.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  So far.

• 6:14Pablo Torre?

  I want to start here. I want to start in earnest with the topic that everybody's been asking. The sporting class to weigh in on because the foremost media merger that's not quite done yet, David, involves Netflix, it involves Paramount, it involves Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers being the asset. David Zaslove being the character who we've covered so much on this show. And I just want to start with this premise. David Zaslove very clearly seems to me like the guy who's winning here. There are lots of nervous people. What's gonna happen? And David Zaslove seems to be just waiting to count the money, David.

• 6:53Speaker 05

  Yep, there's been a public disclosure, Pablo, that shows that he can potentially walk away with about a half a billion dollars. Because there are disclosures that have to be made when you're dealing with a public company. And actually, they released a list of names and what their benefits would be. But the most interesting thing about this process is that there is some thought that David may not be acting in the best interest of the shareholders. At least, that is what the Ellison family would like to believe. So they chose on behalf of Skydance and Paramount, caveat, I do work on my off days with Paramount and Skydance, that their offer for Warner Brothers is better, more cash,

• 7:37Speaker 05

  and they went right to the shareholders. They skipped David because they realized that they're not getting anywhere with him. So they said, screw it, we're gonna go to the shareholders. And just recently, what Warner Brothers decided is, you know what, we appreciate it, but we're gonna say that your offer is declined. We don't think it's in the best interest of the shareholders. And that's on behalf of someone ready to make a half a billion from the people at Netflix.

• 8:04Pablo Torre?

  So John, just to recap here, right? So the deal was gonna be Netflix buys Warner Brothers, David Zaslove, the head of Warner Brothers Discovery, and all of these assets. What David is saying is that on Wednesday morning, after there was a hostile takeover bid, which is a great term, much like carriage dispute, hostile takeover is a fun term for us to explain.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  It doesn't feel that hostile. It's a sort of semi-acrimonious takeover bid. They're doing something which is not inappropriate, which is suggesting we have a better bid and we would like the shareholders to take a vote on whether it's a better bid. They have the right to suggest that maybe there are some reasons that the management of Warner Brothers Discovery might favor the Netflix bid. I'm not making that assertion, by the way, but that would be what they would suggest.

• 8:58Pablo Torre?

  God forbid.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  But, so we'll see. I would, I would, I personally believe that Netflix will end up owning this, because it's very hard to convince the shareholders. You're talking about a lot of people. By the way, I'm assuming those shareholders include all those people who are going to get those hundreds of billions of dollars. I'm assuming they have some say in that. And shareholders tend to go along with the management, particularly when they're all going to make money, right? I mean, and in some ways Netflix seems a safer bet. It seems, I do think Netflix is overwhelmingly about streaming, and they are the better place

• 9:46Speaker 01

  if Warner Bros. Discovery is going to transition into more of a streaming world. It probably is a better company to own them.

• 9:52Speaker 05

  The caveat, though, John, is that what the Ellison's are doing, they're not going to the mom and pop shareholders. If I, I don't know this for a fact, as you would say, nor would I like to speculate, but okay, I actually will. They're likely talking to the institutional investors. And they're likely trying to convince them that it really is about the price per share. It's about the amount of money they can realize. Because if you convince enough institutional investors, you're right, the single shareholders tend to go along with management, but institutional investors actually tend to go where the most money is. So I wouldn't poo poo Paramount and Skydance. The Ellison's don't like losing very well. And David O'Reilly is talking about, David Ellison, that is, there's so

• 10:37Speaker 05

  many Davids. He's talking about, hey, if this doesn't work with WBD, maybe I'll turn my attention to Comcast and to NBC and that family, because they clearly want to get some economies of scale after the merger with Skydance. So I don't think they're going to walk away that quickly, but it will depend on what the large block of institutional investors believe is best for them.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  I feel schooled there and I think that's right.

• 11:05Pablo Torre?

  Well, can we explain the Ellison's? I wanna, I wanna take people into the classroom of like, okay. So, the way a deal like this can work if we're doing a quote-unquote hostile takeover bid is that Paramount comes in with this $30 per share, all cash offer. And where's the money coming from? Well, a couple of the names, David Samson, already referenced. Larry Ellison, the, at last check, richest man in the world, and his son David Ellison, who has been very active-

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Well, not quite the richest man in the world.

• 11:32Pablo Torre?

  Depending on where the-

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Is about $235 billion. And I believe Elon Musk has a little more money than that. I could be wrong.

• 11:41Pablo Torre?

  Sorry. Based on the performance of Tesla and SpaceX, it all changes based on what is happening in a marketplace that I can't begin to summarize on account of the rank corruption that is currently influencing the, the, the, the, the growth of all of these properties.

• 11:59Speaker 05

  That is quite an allegation. It's the stock market, actually, and you multiply the amount, dollars per share, times the number of shares outstanding, but again, have at it.

• 12:10Pablo Torre?

  I bring that up to say that what the Ellison's are doing is making a deal, a proposal, based on what is now a lot of, a lot of Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, public investment fund money, plus Abu Dhabi's holding company, plus the Qatar Investment Authority. And, uh, this is Tuesday now, uh, not Jared Kushner, this is the son-in-law of President Donald Trump, of course, not Jared Kushner's affinity partners as one of the equity investors because Jared Kushner said, "I'm outta here." And so, at this point, David, could you just explain?

• 12:47Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 12:48Pablo Torre?

  Like, what the fuck-

• 12:49Speaker 05

  It was 200 million, Pablo, give me a break, it's a rounding error. And it's not, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze because Jared Kushner and the relationship with the White House, it just wasn't worth it to go to the investors, if you're David Ellison, and say, "Wow, what are you bringing to this?" What Jared Kushner would bring to any partnership is government approval. What he would bring to anything is simply the president. And in this case- The president has to be very careful in terms of Netflix versus Skydance, because both of those groups do a lot for the president. And therefore, it was not worth it. There wasn't any incremental benefit to having Jared as a part of it. And again, it was a rounding error. It was $200 million.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  I'm amused by your use of the words, "the president must be very careful." You think we're going to see a precedent? Precedential thing here? Where he is careful on something?

• 13:45Speaker 05

  Your point is well taken, but I think that the appearance of impropriety in this instance is just not worth it. He can direct the deal however he wants to through the chair, because it will have to be approved. There are, it's, by the way, the antitrust issues are not just for Netflix. They're also for Paramount, Skydance. They'd be for anyone in this arena with this type of transaction. So there is the obvious need for governmental approval. And therefore, you have the appearance that if Jared Kushner is in the deal, it just looks uglier than having Saudi money or Qatari money, because the truth is, their money is everywhere anyway.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  I would only make two points. I believe that Jared Kushner is capable of making the assumption that the appearance of impropriety is a problem. I do not believe the president is capable of making that distinction. So I'm amused by your idea. And I'm also a little bit amused, it's a cynical amusement, so I'll confess that, that everybody's talking about the regulatory as though the Justice Department, under Pam Bondi, is actually going to do anything other than acclaim and put a stamp on whatever the president wants to do. That you believe there will be a serious look at whether or not this is deleterious for consumers?

• 15:08Speaker 05

  No, certainly not. This is never about consumers. It's, it just is supposed to be. It's actually just about where, where the chips are in terms of other deals that are happening and other things. When we see that, I must say, it's not just President Trump who does that. This happens throughout business, throughout politics, where everybody is making deals every day. I mean, John, you know better than many, although you forget what you used to be in terms of how you put deals together. You had constituencies that you had to answer to as well.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep. No question about that. I just don't think there will be a credible regulatory process here.

• 15:48Pablo Torre?

  Well, as we consider what the FTC might do, what the Justice Department might do, and we assume that the answer is nothing, that seems to be, I think, a unique feature, not, uh...

• 15:58Speaker 01

  And, and I don't disagree with you, David. There's always been this, but not, there have been justices departments that did actually do what they're supposed to do and find out whether this would be anti-competitive, anti-consumer, right? That, that's what they're supposed to figure out. But I don't think there's any intention in this Justice Department to do that.

• 16:23Pablo Torre?

  By degrees, it feels like when they are presented, this Justice Department, this FTC, with the following sort of image, right? Netflix wants to buy Warner Brothers Pictures, Television and Games, DC Studios, HBO and HBO Max, TNT Sports International, and New Line Cinema, right? And that's already this thing from a competition perspective of like, whoa, that is a bit much, you'd imagine. But then Paramount wants that, and also Discovery, CNN, Eurosport, TNT, and TNT Sports U.S., and 18 other channels that we've listed here, including, you know, Adult Swim and the Food Network and all this other stuff. You see the NCAA logo there, the Olympic logo there, Major League Baseball's logo there.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Little bit misleading. They, those are not assets. The Paramount is buying, is assuming the licenses with those companies, but they're not Paramount assets.

• 17:18Pablo Torre?

  The sports that they're going to get their rights to involve the logos aforementioned.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:22Speaker 05

  I like that you do pictures Pablo, but I think we should inform people that Warner Brothers Discovery is in the process of splitting into two companies. Netflix is offering to buy one of the companies. Paramount is offering to buy both of the companies. And when you're meeting with the institutional investors, the question is, when you're supposed to act on behalf of your shareholders, the question is, what's in the best interest of right now, the one Warner Brothers Discovery, given they're on the path to splitting into two? And there is an argument to be made on both sides, that just getting rid of everything, if you are Warner Brothers Discovery, it's clean, it's neat, you don't have to worry about your balance sheet anymore.

• 18:04Speaker 05

  You don't have to worry about whether splitting the companies was the right decision or the wrong decision. But on the other hand, what Netflix is providing is schmuck insurance. And schmuck insurance is when you keep a piece, Mark Cuban is good at that. It's when you keep a piece of an asset you sold, in case that asset happens to increase in value more than you expected it to, and therefore you can share in some of that upside, even after you sold a controlling stake.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. It does also, doesn't it David?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  To a quick read of some of the public information about this, you would assume that the Netflix bid is 83, give or take. And the new bid from Paramount, I think is 108. But it's not apples and apples, because they're in fact buying more things. So it's not a 25 billion, I'm sorry. It's not a 25 billion dollar delta. It's a more complicated mathematics than that.

• 19:05Speaker 05

  And what it does, John, is it actually pins a value on that second spinoff company. And so that requires a lot of extra work by the investment bankers to figure out. They know what Warner Brothers Discovery is worth now. When it's split, now we're assigning a value to each individual company. And the question is whether or not that value is accurate and whether or not that value will change and increase over time with one of these deals being done. So it's not a simple decision by Zaslov, in my opinion, because he stands to gain either way. It's not like he's gonna be, you know, dancing for his dinner, no matter which direction he goes. Yeah.

• 19:50Pablo Torre?

  I'm looking at just the number.

• 19:51Speaker 05

  Thank you, John.

• 19:52Pablo Torre?

  Total, I think John may be gazing in the direction of the chart where it says that total value of unvested awards for David Zaslov is 537,668,436. Quadrille bazillion dollars. Look, I want to start with the Zaslov perspective, simply because he's the guy we've covered on this show. And we've covered him in the sense of he had this bid for the NBA rights. And it seems like if you're just listening to the sporting class, that's worth considering as context for this.

• 20:31Pablo Torre?

  Does this happen if Warner Brothers Discovery and David Zaslov and his very not game worn Knicks cap at MSG? Does any of this happen if they get the NBA rights, if they stay in that deal, do you think?

• 20:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, John, I think it absolutely happens. I'll allow you to go first. John, just remember that back, back when we started this conversation, when he said Warner Brothers doesn't need the NBA, and Adam Silver took offense to that, they then do a deal with Amazon and with Peacock, and don't forget what Warner Brothers did, they had a lawsuit ready to go saying, hey, we have a right to match. We went through all of this this year, back before Pablo was the media personality of the year, and the reality is, I'm gonna keep going, I got two weeks to do this. The whole year? The whole year.

• 21:24Speaker 05

  So there have been discussions about what was appropriate for Warner Brothers to do because the NBA package, as evaluated by Warner Brothers Discovery, was a loser package. And so it was in the best interests of his financial health, of his company, his investors, himself, to not overbid on the NBA. And what happened is, he did what the Yankees did when they lost Juan Soto. They signed Max Fried, they signed Paul Goldschmidt, they got a bunch of other different players, maybe for the same amount of money, but a different, you know, spread out the risk a little more. And that's exactly what Warner Brothers Discovery has done. Because since they lost the NBA, they have announced multiple rights deals with multiple

• 22:09Speaker 05

  properties, all in an effort to A, strengthen the balance sheet, but B, to show investors and potential suitors that it's not the emperor's new clothes, that there's actually assets here worth purchasing.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  But are you, so you're suggesting, David, that there is a tumble on effect from that to this deal?

• 22:30Speaker 05

  A hundred percent.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not sure I'd believe that. I think this is a case of David Zaslove aggregating a bunch of assets. I think the general sense was, it's not a coherent company, they're going to face difficulties, they have too much debt. I don't think he anticipated that, gee, while this may be an unwieldy and perhaps illogical company going forward, may have troubles, that somebody who is in the process of wanting to be a force in the entertainment business, which is the Ellison's, have a collection of, decided to make a bid for it. I don't think David was inviting bids.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  I think he actually expected, he's a confident man, and he has succeeded before, and I think he actually expected to figure this out. This actually turns out to be, in my opinion, an exceptionally

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Great deal because not only does he make all that money, he doesn't have to spend the next six years of his life trying to justify that deal. Because this means it worked, even though it may not have been a good deal in isolation. Putting those assets together created a, an attractive, an attractive acquisition target for other companies that have to consolidate.

• 23:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, you may be right, except part of the provisions that they're negotiating, both with Netflix and with Paramount Skydance, is what role David Zaslove would actually have post-transaction. And many of these transactions require the CEO to stay on. They've been negotiating with him, what title? Could it be co-CEO? Would he be this president? What exactly would he be doing? So I don't think he's able to sell to either of these parties and just disappear onto a yacht. I think he's gonna have to stay and watch and participate as it unravels, whether or not what he's done has been smart.

• 24:32Pablo Torre?

  So I guess my question then, John, is...

• 24:35Speaker 01

  I only want to say, I apologize. I only want to say, that assumes they actually want him. His greatest skills have been in creating value, not in operating a company, though he has a lot of, he has a lot of talented operators who work for him. Some of the other people listed in those filings.

• 24:54Pablo Torre?

  Well, that's my question, actually, is, did David Zaslove know he was gonna win all along? Because all of us are talking about, ooh, does this company make any sense? Will they get the thing that we consider and have always established as the most valuable property in media, which is sports rights? Does David Zaslove and his lack of sports rights actually indicate that he's been playing the longest game of all and he's been laughing while we've been stressing?

• 25:19Speaker 05

  Certainly appears to me, I mean, we have to see where the deal ends up and we have to see how cleanly it finishes. But to me, I'm gonna give him more credit, John. I'm gonna say that this was all part. The reason I say 100% is I can't imagine anyone at any level of business not thinking ahead. And certainly when you're running a company like Warner Brothers Discovery, when you are looking at splitting the company into two, which they had gone down the road, you don't just do that without thinking what's next. That's the whole key in business, is you have to look around the corner, you have to be three to 10 steps ahead. So I would certainly assume, and I'm still gonna say 100%, that all of this, including

• 26:01Speaker 05

  all of the machinations with the NBA, and all of the public statements, and all of the lawsuits, I believe that everything was part of a plan to cash in for himself and his shareholders.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a little bit skeptical of that. I will give him credit for adapting to a changing landscape, but I do believe, and I know David a bit, I do believe David was genuinely excited, right? One of the perks of being the CEO of a company like that is you get to sit in the front row in the front row of a Knicks game. And there is value to that. And I think he expected to run the company and create value for his shareholders and himself, and sooner than he expected, it turned out that his exit presented himself. Now, you may be right, he may have been prescient and actually had planned this all along, but

• 26:53Speaker 01

  if I was gonna do that, my first action would not be, "I'm going to piss off the NBA and lose these rights." Keep in mind, he bid, I think, $22 billion for the rights, and they wanted $24 billion, something like that. It's an immaterial, I mean, I just think he miscalculated the negotiation.

• 27:15Speaker 05

  Man, I bid on a lot of things, John, than not wanting to win them. A lot. Bid on a lot of players not wanting to sign them, you bid on a lot of assets, you go to an auction, you place some bids. Explain, explain, explain why you did that. Because you want the appearance. And you don't want to make it as obvious as some people like the Pirates when they're offering Schwaber like 25 million for four years. You wanna, I've bid for players where, hey, that's a respectable bid, but I know from the agent and from the player that they're not taking it, but I get to be the PR guy out in front saying, hey, what more do you want me to do here? So I don't believe that part of the strategy for WBD was re-upping with the NBA from the start.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  But, you know, it's impossible to know and that I cannot, I know of no information to dispel what you just said. I just don't think you needed all that theater. If you didn't want to bid, if it just was a plan, just be straightforward and say, we're not going to make an irresponsible bid. Why, they need to sue them? They need to go through all this? And I genuinely felt from people who I know at, at what would have been TNT, they certainly believed that the company wanted to get those rights. But it doesn't matter, the, you know, for whatever, whether completely pre-designed or actually just adaptive to new circumstances where there's opportunity, the man has done

• 28:41Speaker 01

  an astonishing deal, and he must get credit and, and the kudos you would give to somebody for doing that.

• 28:52Speaker 05

  What made Andy Kaufman great is that he leaned into it in a way that you couldn't tell a bit from reality. And so when you're the CEO of a company, yes, you need people at TNT to believe that your intention is to complete a deal. That is part and parcel to the entire process. So I don't use that as a dispositive argument, that those, that people that far in middle management were like, yeah, I think we're coming back, man.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  I would agree with you as not dispositive, but I would also quarrel with your suggestion that anyone involved there had anywhere near the creative imagination of Andy Kaufman.

• 29:33Pablo Torre?

  I do think it's a perfect summation, though, as it often is unintentionally on this show, that David is talking about an Andy Kaufman-esque commitment to the bit in terms of what he was doing, in terms of the bids he made. And John, who is always, "I want the biggest bid plus one, plus $1," is like, "I don't even have time for such theater."

• 29:54Speaker 01

  I'm a simple guy.

• 29:55Pablo Torre?

  It's a simple... David, he's a simple country lawyer.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  All I can picture in my mind now is Andy Kaufman going, "Here he comes to save the day."

• 30:11Pablo Torre?

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• 30:44Speaker 02

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• 31:14Speaker 03

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• 31:46Pablo Torre?

  Funny and weird and a bizarre auction also describes the next story that I've been meaning to talk to you guys about. And this is a story, David, that involves something that John did that I also want your view on because John Skipper once testified in the federal FIFA corruption trial. We did an episode about this on PTFO. It's fascinating. You get to see a photo of, as always, a truly delighted John Skipper, almost skipping into the courthouse. You have these photos from the sidewalk to also evaluate if you're watching on YouTube. But I bring it up because the news of this month is that, and this is the New York Times, I will quote them, "Federal prosecutors in Brooklyn have moved to drop charges against

• 32:30Pablo Torre?

  a former Fox employee who was convicted of scheming to pay millions of dollars in bribes in exchange for the lucrative broadcast rights to soccer tournaments." This was, I mean, it remains, a real, like, briar patch of a story. I mean, this is how FIFA awarded the World Cup to Fox instead of John Skipper and ESPN. He lost the bid. And so, John, what was your reaction when you saw this latest development in that case?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  My reaction was that Johnny Infantini and FIFA finally found the United States government that would descend to their level of corruption and ill-gotten gains. And whilst is there this bro-ish relationship between Johnny and Donnie, and whilst, and by the way, it's yet another coincidence, right? Ghislaine Maxwell gets moved to a minimum-security prison. It's just a coincidence. So it's just a coincidence that the Justice Department decided, and I believe they put out a statement, "This is no longer a priority for an administration which wants to do nothing

• 33:45Speaker 01

  except work for the American people." It is a serious abrogation of the United States' role in the world. The reason that the United States, and was it Letitia James?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Who actually served all those people at the Barilock Hotel in Switzerland is because the United States government is the only entity capable of holding FIFA to some reasonable, ethical, and legal standards, right? The Swiss government has no authority over FIFA, no other entity does. The United States government has always asserted that if you are committing crimes in the United States, we can go after you wherever. And that's what they did. And that was a moral authority that our country sometimes has assumed, not always perfectly. But this administration, and I realize this is devolving into my opinion of this administration.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  This administration is going, it's not our job to actually bring ethics to the business. Trump is also, go ahead, ask a question till I stop.

• 34:54Pablo Torre?

  No, well, I want to put that on hold for a second, just to do a bit of cleanup in Isle Skipper. So Johnny Infantino is the, we're looking for an O.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  What do I call him?

• 35:04Pablo Torre?

  You bought a different vowel.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Infantini.

• 35:06Pablo Torre?

  Infantini, which is a drink, I think, inspired by.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  I think it's a subconscious desire to use the word teeny.

• 35:12Speaker 05

  He was cooking, Pablo, I didn't want to stop him.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Because there is something teeny about Trump and Infantini. Tino.

• 35:20Pablo Torre?

  Well, there is that. And the quote, by the way, is a quote from the Justice Department spokesperson to Newsweek, and John got this one right. Quote, "These prosecutions are not consistent with the current prosecutorial priorities of the United States, which direct the Department of Justice's resources into making America safe again."

• 35:41Speaker 01

  From Letitia James and James Comey.

• 35:44Pablo Torre?

  So, and by the way, David, on that, Letitia James was not the person who was overseeing the original trial, the FIFA trial, but she did resign due to the reasons that you just alluded to just then, yes.

• 35:55Speaker 05

  I think it should be pointed out that the people in the United States, if you ask them. Nine and a half out of 10 people would agree with that statement. That if I had to choose between my own safety and trying to curb the corruption of the most corrupt company in the entire world for game ticket prices and where games are that I'm not gonna go to, that I don't care about, nine and a half out of 10 people, if not more, would choose safety. However, the timing, as per usual, is just unfortunate because it masks the message. And so, yes, all of these things, the Peace Prize that he got from FIFA, which is creating

• 36:38Speaker 05

  its own yarn, complicated yarn, the Justice Department dropping this case. And the truth of the matter is that when you look at what the case was, and you look at what he did, and John, you were there, you are the only one I know in that process who went in thinking, well, this may be fair. I may have an opportunity to bid, a real closed bid, and if I'm the highest bid, I'm gonna get it, and if I'm not, they're gonna keep coming back. I'm not sure that anybody else in that process had any notion that it was gonna be like that. So I return to where we were earlier on PTFO and the sporting class, which was, I don't

• 37:22Speaker 05

  know what you were thinking in terms of when you're dealing with sports teams and leagues and conferences in college, the way that you have bullied them and gotten deals done is exactly what you're describing. You give a price, there's not enough competition, and therefore you win. FIFA doesn't operate under those rules, and they never did, and you made the mistake of thinking that, oh, my experience with X would inform what my experience with Y would be.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Well, you speak much truth there, but you ignore one thing. I worked for the Walt Disney Company, and no matter what you may cynically think, as executives, we were told, you must behave ethically. We could not. There is a foreign, what's it called, the Foreign Corruption Act? We were told you must abide by that.

• 38:09Pablo Torre?

  Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. We built a building in Mexico City. And we were frequently advised by local suppliers that we could get it done quicker. We could get better plumbing if we would slip some money. And that is a fireball at fence at the Walt Disney Company. Again, you may have some reservations about the accuracy of that statement. And did somebody do something at some point? Probably. But we didn't at ESPN. We did not bribe anybody, to my knowledge, ever. And we chose to behave ethically. While the American people may decide that they don't want the United States to represent

• 38:51Speaker 01

  the ethical authority of the world, because people have the right and everybody's reaction to everything is, what does it mean for me?

• 38:59Pablo Torre?

  I no longer wonder why your stock price lags.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  My stock price? I'm not, I'm not for sale on the public markets, David. So I don't have a stock price. What stock price are you referring to? Disney's stock price was spectacular for many, many years. Their issues are not ethics. Their issues are that their most lucrative businesses are under challenge. They're trying to respond to those, but we weren't dupes by being ethical. There are advantages to actually behaving with that and not approaching everything with the assumption that everybody else is going to cheat. Now, to be fair, we had more money than anybody else, and that usually trumps even cheating.

• 39:42Pablo Torre?

  I wanna, David, David, David, I wanna actually explain to people, though. You know, just the visuals on John's, John's in court in a federal trial. And it's basically a version of The Sporting Class Without Us. They're asking him about like, so how did you make, John, we talked about this, like, how did you make your bids? Why did you make your bids? Are you, what did you know about these other side deals that were apparently being perpetrated, allegedly, by Hernan Lopez, who was the ex-CEO of Fox International Channels and full play group SA? They were convicted in 2023 after this trial. But then, of course, an acquittal and then a reinstatement of convictions. Again, a whole briar patch of just like stuff.

• 40:25Pablo Torre?

  But David, just for people who don't understand, the fun of being in a trial like that and a courtroom like that, how can you explain to people just the dynamic in that room?

• 40:36Speaker 05

  Well, for John, there was really nothing at stake. When he was asked to testify, he was not under indictment. He was not under subpoena. He was simply asked to participate. And I believe, John, you did have legal counsel smartly, because J I C is always a good way to be, just in case. And I also believe that when you were in there and you were telling your story, that's the story as you believed it to be and as you experienced it. That was your experience with that bidding process. But when you look at what the convictions were and when you look at what the process was, it's hard to believe that Disney was anything other than a stool pigeon.

• 41:17Speaker 05

  You were never gonna win.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  You're suggesting, but your suggestion, your suggestion is that it's impossible to operate in a business environment unless you assume everybody else is gonna cheat and lie.

• 41:29Speaker 05

  Thank you for putting words in my mouth that are exactly as I would say them. When you are dealing with FIFA, for you to expect that the Disney way, I'm picturing like Mickey Mouse walking in and giving a fast pass to FIFA. It's a joke. They're not interested in that. They're interested in making sure that they've got the relationship. They've got the money. They've got individual. The board members have individual benefits as well. We've seen it with what they do with Saudi Arabia, with Qatar in the last World Cup. We know how they operate, and you did too. And Disney did too, and Bob Iger did too.

• 42:09Speaker 05

  And it's nice that you were called on to profess your innocence, and I don't mean criminally, but sort of your, oh, I wish the world were this way. But you knew the world wasn't that way.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  There is, there was no alternative. We weren't gonna bribe anybody. We weren't going to cheat. What are you suggesting we should have done? Other than maybe I should have been a less naive, right? And figured out an ethical way to win. By the way, we did fair and ethical way to win and to get the 2010 and 2014. Is an ethical way to win is to pay the most money. And for most of the things I dealt with, paying the most money, being the best partner, was enough to win. And so I had very little experience in having to deal with.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Going into a negotiation going, now I gotta figure out how I'm gonna outfox and outlie and out cheat these other potential bidders. By the way, while I, it's the worst business experience of my life, meaning most disappointing. Not most disappointing, I would not, if they'd said, you're gonna get this. If you write me a check, if you, if you go get $10,000 in cash and give it to me, you, you will win, I would've said no. I know you don't believe that.

• 43:35Speaker 05

  I do believe that, John.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Okay, good.

• 43:37Speaker 05

  I do believe you would not have done that, but what I, what I find it hard to believe is you're asking me, how would you, could you have behaved differently? You could have not made a bid.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I have to say, my emotion attached to loving that event so much and thinking it was so great, and we actually did move the sport of global football to a level of prominence. I thought that might matter. I thought the spectacular job we'd done with it. Nobody quarrels that we did, the 10, the 2010, 2014 World Cups have never been bested and never will be.

• 44:19Speaker 05

  It just means you're Frankenstein.

• 44:22Speaker 05

  That you created a monster and then were surprised at the actions of the monster.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting, uh, meta, interesting metaphor, but I understand it now and it's accurate. We did, and by the way, I've seen many people make the mistake of going, wow, they'll love me because I helped make them. And in fact, when it happens, but that's okay. I mean, in retrospect, I wouldn't have done anything different, I don't think. I can't figure out what to do. And if I'd gone to ask Bob Iger, we can sort of get this, if we kind of do some things, he would've said no. I know it's hard to believe, but there are ethical players in the business world.

• 44:59Pablo Torre?

  I do like that one of the defenses of Mr. Lopez, according to his attorneys in writing, was, quote, "South America has different cultural norms and customs of gift giving than the United States."

• 45:10Speaker 01

  It's accurate, by the way. I was once riding along in, with a couple of my friends in Mexico and we were speeding like crazy. And I said, aren't you afraid you're gonna get stopped? And they said, no, because you're gonna get stopped whether you're speeding or not here, and you just have to pay the policeman and leave. So it is different. And by the way, many of the people who we said we won't pay you a bribe were shocked because it is the practice in many cultures. It's not the ideal practice in the American culture, though it is much practiced. And it's okay.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  It's okay.

• 45:50Speaker 05

  You ever built anything in the Dominican Republic? Because it sounds like not.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  We had businesses throughout Latin America that were quite successful, and we did manage to operate them theoretically in violation of some local cultural norms. Did I ever build a business in Dominican Republic? The Walt Disney Company has a small business in the Dominican Republic, but no. And I don't really buy the it's okay when you travel around the world to operate. You don't have to have a set of your own values, your own ethical practices. You have to adapt to those. It's bullshit. You know, the fact that it is cultural norms somewhere for people to execute people

• 46:39Speaker 01

  who are homosexual doesn't mean when I go in there that I have to accept that.

• 46:45Pablo Torre?

  I merely want to ask David about what his experience was like building something in the Dominican Republic.

• 46:55Speaker 05

  You have to know exactly who to talk to, when to talk to them, and what they need to get anything done. Otherwise, you will get nothing done. That's just the reality in baseball. And baseball spends a lot of time hiring people like Albert Pujols to try to make everything okay and look good. But the Dominican is one of the most corrupt places you will ever see in terms of getting any academy done, in terms of renting a field, in terms of signing players, just in terms of how the government works there. And so all I'm saying is that you do have to. And so you have to adjust to the rules of engagement. You can choose not to play the game. But when I do business in Japan, it's far different. Trust me, I don't buy gifts for people when I'm negotiating with a guy in Nebraska.

• 47:41Speaker 05

  But when you're negotiating with someone in Japan, you don't go to a negotiation without a gift. I can choose to not bring a gift, and then I can choose to not get a deal done. My choice.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  That is, that is not an unethical adaptation. And at the Walt Disney Company, you could, when you went into a meeting, provide an appropriate gift. It would have to be de minimis value. Uh, but, but you, you can adopt, you, you can adapt. But I, again, we, and the Walt Disney Company probably is somewhat special, right? The world love Walt Disney, people want Walt Disney, they wanna buy plush and, and there's a lot of money to be made in it. So maybe we got the opportunity to, uh, to be a little bit above some of it. But, and that's where I spent 27 years. So I believe in that. And I, you and I have talked about this.

• 48:31Pablo Torre?

  Oh, David, sorry, David's crying. He's overcome with emotion now, John.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  I'll leave it alone.

• 48:39Pablo Torre?

  Look.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  I'll leave it alone.

• 48:40Pablo Torre?

  The line, the line that we arrive at is the line that the United States is contemplating, which is what is the distinction with a difference between a cultural norm of gift giving and commercial bribery? And what the lawyers in this case have argued is that, in fact, this is not something that should be prosecuted because it happened uh, outside of the boundaries of your American norms.

• 49:07Speaker 05

  That's not what they said, Pablo. That's, that's not what happened. They just said that they're not allocating resources.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  That's a lawyer.

• 49:13Pablo Torre?

  No, no, the, the lawyer for Mr. Lopez said, uh...

• 49:17Speaker 01

  But he's just making a public statement to try to justify the, the behavior of his client. That, oh, this wasn't bad. It wasn't a legal argument.

• 49:36Speaker 06

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 50:09Speaker 03

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• 50:33Speaker 07

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• 51:11Pablo Torre?

  We have arrived at the place where the sporting class was destined to arrive at the end of the year, which is in the theater of press releases. We are talking about who looks good and who looks bad and who did something that's actually worthy of indictment, I guess ethical as well as legal. What did we find out this year? We've done so many episodes. We have built an audience that is here to listen to you guys show what it is that you have found out in your careers. But when you look back at the year in sports business, David, I want to start with you. What are you left thinking in terms of the trajectory you've traced on this show?

• 51:48Speaker 05

  Well, I'm left thinking that consolidation is exactly where we are and what is coming. And the speed of consolidation may be a little faster than I expected, much like when COVID just basically increased the rate of things that were happening anyway. So I think consolidation in the sports media world was going to happen, but it's happening a little faster than I expected. And the other thing I found out is that the unique vantage point that John has and what I appreciate most about John and what I've learned most over the past year of episodes, going back to just this year, is that he legitimately believes in every move he's made and every step he's taken and breath he's taken.

• 52:33Speaker 05

  And I respect the hell out of that. But you used a word today, John, that I would never associate with you. You used naivete. I don't find you to be naive. I think that you want us to believe that you are this person who always, you know, has the line between what's right and wrong and will always be on the side of the people. But what I've learned is that no matter what, when the camera's off, you are an extraordinary person. So to speak for the people, it's the equivalent of Pablo pretending that he can now speak to the people for the people because of who he has become, or me for that matter. But I love the fact that we try and that we do these episodes. That's what I've learned, Pablo.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  I think, um...

• 53:17Speaker 01

  That I benefited dramatically from being very early to understand that sports was the most valuable content in the world. And particularly a world where it was no longer about broadcast networks. But sports is the most valuable content and everybody has realized that. And what we're seeing is whether it's private equity funds, whether it's sovereign wealth funds, whether it's whatever, athletic departments, everybody's in a gold rush, right? This is Sutter's, sports is Sutter's Mill right now, right? It's a gold rush and everybody knows that sports is valuable.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  They want to buy teams, they want to be involved, they want to figure out a way to make money off athletic departments in academic institutions. And some of it is ugly, some of it is wonderful, right? I mean, and but that's what we're seeing right on a macro level is everybody now understands this is the most valuable content in the world. You want to start a big company, Netflix, very cagily for years said, oh, we're not really interested in sports. They've always been interested in sports and they've waited for the right moment to enter and they'll be quite successful in it and it will matter to their company because sports is about passion and it's also about concurrent audiences.

• 54:38Pablo Torre?

  What I am left thinking at the end of this year, as I listen to both of you guys, be so different in how you talk about this stuff is that I like that you guys are, there's a term, the white hat hacker, are you familiar with this term? It's basically somebody who knows how the bad guys work, the malicious ones work. In order to explain for people as the white hat hackers, this is what they're trying to do to you. That's why I love this show is that you guys are white hat hackers in the world of sports business and capitalism. And also relatedly, John is a guy who truly mangles entirely unintentionally the Survivor slogan. Did you catch that David?

• 55:23Pablo Torre?

  He was trying to talk about outfoxing, outwit, outplay, outlast is what the rule, what the, what the framework for decision making is in Survivor. And David, of course, has embodied that. I know that game.

• 55:41Pablo Torre?

  As a guy.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  By the way, it's a manifestation of you and me, David. You nailed that game. It's funny, and I have never seen 30 seconds of The Survivor.

• 55:55Speaker 05

  Well, I was on for an entire episode, John.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  You know what?

• 56:00Pablo Torre?

  There's a great 30 seconds of David in that first episode.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  If I ever thought about watching a little Survivor, I'd start with your episode.

• 56:08Pablo Torre?

  And much like David, you would also end with that same episode.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, in that case, David and I would be completely aligned.

• 56:18Speaker 05

  Thank you, guys.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  All right.

• 56:20Pablo Torre?

  David, we love you, we miss you. Thanks for a great year. It's been fun. We'll do it again in next... I dare say we'll do it again in 2026.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Dare say? To dare is to do, to dare is to do, which is a slogan of Tottenham Hotspur.

• 56:35Pablo Torre?

  Oh, boy.

• 56:44Pablo Torre?

  This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.

• 57:49Speaker 06

  Workspace with Gemini. Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 58:15Speaker 03

  With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.