You're Using Tabs Wrong

There sure are a lot of iPhone pictures coming back from space this week! Anthropic also has a new model that's too powerful for us to use, the iPhone Fold got delayed and then undelayed, and Chrome is adding vertical tabs! Plus, Japan got an exclusive Pixel 10a and Samsung messages is getting shut down. There's a lot to talk about this week! ⁠⁠Submit your questions for the Q&A episode! Links: Artemis photos JerryRigEverything - LG rollable video Nikkei Asia - iPhone Fold delayed Bloomberg - iPhone Fold not delayed Android Authority - Samsung messages shut down Verge - Chrome adds vertical tabs Anthropic - Project Glasswing Skoda - Duobell Skoda - ANC study Google Japan - Pixel 10a exclusive This episode brought to you by: Framer: https://www.framer.com/wave Zapier: https://www.zapier.com/wave Socials: Waveform Threads: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Waveform Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/waveformpodcast/?hl=en Waveform TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Hosts: Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Intro/Outro music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.tk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrew Manganelli?

  This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, host Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist, and Colin Martin, Head of Fixed Income Research and Strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring your fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episodes and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. AI is only as useful as the context it has to work from. But when that context is scattered across tools, threads, and DMs, that means your team and your AI agents end up flying blind. That's the problem that Jira solves. What's the goal tied to your project? What got decided last week in Slack? Atlassian's teamwork graph pulls all these pieces together, from Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more. So, nothing falls through the cracks. With Jira, you can actually share that context with the AI agents you already use, like Claude, Cursor, and GitHub Copilot, assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time digging through endless links and DMs, less time chasing down what got decided and by who, and more time actually shipping. Learn more at jira.com.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  That's J-I-R-A dot com.

• 1:21David Imel?

  No more doc for me.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Wow. It's committing to it.

• 1:24David Imel?

  I'm committing.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 1:25David Imel?

  I don't click on those things. I just, I just do command space.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do that, too. I'm gonna hide my doc.

• 1:30David Imel?

  Is this something we can all agree on?

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Well, I'm a Raycast guy.

• 1:32Andrew Manganelli?

  I was gonna say, the real end to this whole debate is, everyone has way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  Not man.

• 1:39Andrew Manganelli?

  But I thought it was fun.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the whole reason I liked Arc in the first place, because I have way too many tabs open and it closes them for me.

• 1:44David Imel?

  You don't want Arc. You want an AI browser owned by Atlassian.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, what is up people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts, I'm Marquez.

• 1:59Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm Andrew.

• 2:00David Imel?

  And I'm David.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  This week, we've got NASA coming back from the moon, sick. Chrome adding vertical tabs, which we can talk about if they're actually better.

• 2:09Andrew Manganelli?

  What?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Samsung Messages shutting down, Anthropic Project Glasswing, and how ANC headphones is causing potential safety issues, and how a car company is trying to fix that. And we'll end it all with Andrew's whoop rant.

• 2:23Andrew Manganelli?

  An update to it.

• 2:23David Imel?

  Part deux.

• 2:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. I also put "and" like four times in there, so it just sounded like you did a really run on sentence. That's my fault.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Hey, it's the intro. It's gotta be a run on. But first, did they even test this?

• 2:35Andrew Manganelli?

  I have a really fast one. No one's on Pixel right now, right? So none of you have experienced this. The new flashlight-

• 2:41David Imel?

  I have moved on to greener pastures.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Nah.

• 2:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Nah. Mine's greener. Mine's greener, for sure.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, look at that there.

• 2:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Or yellower. The new flashlight quick setting is driving me insane. This only happens in Google Quick Settings, and only if it is the two-by, the two-by-one tile width.

• 3:01Andrew Manganelli?

  So pressing the button, if you press just the little tiny circle of the flashlight icon, it turns the flashlight on. But if you press the whole thing, the setting comes up, which is flashlight strength.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Which I think is a good setting.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  And it turned on.

• 3:14Andrew Manganelli?

  It turns it on, but then you press, you can either press Turn Off or Done, and it stays on. I think the more specific adjustments should be the little button, and the big button should just be on and off. This, every time I turn this on, I get a menu setting, and I hate it. And I think-

• 3:32Speaker 01

  I see what you're saying.

• 3:33Andrew Manganelli?

  If you want to be specific, that should be the smaller touch real estate.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 3:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 3:38David Imel?

  You know what that reminds me of?

• 3:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Thank you. I wonder if anyone else is having-

• 3:40Speaker 01

  No, that makes sense.

• 3:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Because everyone I've asked to test this presses the little button, and I'm like, "Am I insane?"

• 3:45David Imel?

  I mean, that's fair, but regardless, like a bigger touch target should be the more common use case.

• 3:48Andrew Manganelli?

  The more general thing, right?

• 3:49David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 3:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, okay. Thank you.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  That reminds me of, okay, one, on the dynamic island on the iPhone, I think I said this in the review.

• 3:55David Imel?

  Are you back on the Air?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  I'm on the Air.

• 3:58David Imel?

  Why?

• 3:59Speaker 01

  I just, I'm using another camera phone with like an incredible camera, so let me try to use the Air.

• 4:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay. That was a fair question. You sounded a little offended by him asking.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, yeah.

• 4:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  I mean-

• 4:07Andrew Manganelli?

  I think that was a totally fair question.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  This is the first time I've stuck to the Air for more than two days.

• 4:11David Imel?

  I want to try the Air, but I don't want to spend a thousand dollars to try the Air.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:14David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  It's the only black phone they sell, so.

• 4:16David Imel?

  Oh, fair. So the dynamic island, when you're playing media, you can either long press it, which brings up the little pop-up, or you can tap it, which brings up the whole app. I think, I felt since the beginning that that should be the other way around. I should tap it to show the controls, or I should long press it to dive into the app.

• 4:34Andrew Manganelli?

  I, yeah, that sounds exactly the same.

• 4:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 4:37Andrew Manganelli?

  It's, the, the things that can happen accidentally should be the less annoying things that happen.

• 4:43David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 4:44Andrew Manganelli?

  So like tapping both of those should just be the really quick thing that happens.

• 4:47David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 4:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Where the more intentional version of it should be the more granular.

• 4:51David Imel?

  Dive in.

• 4:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 4:53David Imel?

  Kind of related to that, you know how pulling down on the iPhone on the left brings up like one menu setting and bringing down the one on the right brings up the, the quick settings?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  On the left is notifications, on the right is quick settings, yeah.

• 5:04David Imel?

  Yeah, that's annoying. Because to get to notifications is really hard, especially on the Macs.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 5:09David Imel?

  Like, I can almost never do it. And it makes sense to want to get to quick settings like quicker, but I can almost never get to the.

• 5:16Andrew Manganelli?

  What do you think you go into more? Settings or notifications?

• 5:19David Imel?

  Quick settings, because if I want to do notifications, I just lock my phone and then swipe up.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Oh, that's funny. That is faster.

• 5:26David Imel?

  Yeah, that's actually my tic.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Lock, swipe up?

• 5:29David Imel?

  Yeah, when I'm like anxious and I don't know what to do and I'm just like kind of unlocking my phone, I'm like, notification, notification.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Your unlock number must be crazy high.

• 5:36David Imel?

  Dude. Yeah.

• 5:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Do they track that?

• 5:38David Imel?

  They probably do.

• 5:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 5:39David Imel?

  We should all look at that at some point.

• 5:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Phone can track it, you can see it.

• 5:42David Imel?

  I didn't know that.

• 5:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Digital wellbeing, or I forget what it's called on iPhone.

• 5:45David Imel?

  Is that on Android?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  It's called the same thing?

• 5:47Andrew Manganelli?

  It's called the same thing, digital wellbeing.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Oh, on, oh, no, it's called like.

• 5:50David Imel?

  No.

• 5:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Screen time.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Screen time.

• 5:52David Imel?

  Health.

• 5:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 5:53David Imel?

  Which, by the way, I looked at my screen time this week and it was not good. I was monitoring the situation.

• 6:00Speaker 03

  Are you on iPhone?

• 6:01David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  Did you turn off joint device screen time? Because by default, it sums every device that's signed into your iCloud account.

• 6:08David Imel?

  Oh, really?

• 6:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I used to be like, how do I have 18 hours of screen time? And then I realized, oh, it has my entire workday.

• 6:14David Imel?

  Oh.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Which, and I usually have my devices, maybe they.

• 6:18David Imel?

  And that doesn't actually track if you're looking at it.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  No, so if, if you have like a jolt of caffeine or something on it.

• 6:24David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  Like, you, you can have 24 hours of screen time.

• 6:28David Imel?

  Oh, wow, okay. That's good to know.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  Maybe they turn it, this was like as of a year and a half ago.

• 6:32David Imel?

  Hmm, yeah. Anyway, that was a good one, Andrew. I, I agree with you that the bigger touch target should be the more common use case.

• 6:40Andrew Manganelli?

  If I can quickly.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Shut up, Adam.

• 6:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Be the. Just agreed with me.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  I feel like the reason why the more complicated thing is the tap is because they measure time it takes to do something and that's what they're optimizing for.

• 6:58Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll fully admit that the reason they did that is probably based on the literal statistics that they have on the phone. I just think those stats are wrong.

• 7:06David Imel?

  Yeah, but feelings don't care about your facts, Andrew. Come on. All right.

• 7:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Let's talk about it.

• 7:13David Imel?

  Let's talk about.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Hey, this week.

• 7:15David Imel?

  Rockets.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  NASA sent people around the moon.

• 7:19David Imel?

  Around the moon.

• 7:20Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't think I can name all the planets.

• 7:21Speaker 04

  Is the moon a planet, Andrew?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  It's very specifically worded. There are so many interesting things about this and I just figured we could just pop through some of the most fascinating ones. First of all, the Artemis 2 mission is what it's called. These four astronauts went, they launched, they slung shot around Earth, they then flew a quarter million miles to the moon, slung shot around the dark side of the moon and then came back to Earth. And I think by the time you listen to this on Friday, that's when they splashed down in the ocean. So like a week long mission and about 45 minutes of that was spent behind the moon, which is the farthest any humans have ever been from Earth.

• 7:59David Imel?

  Pretty sick.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Which is so cool.

• 8:00David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  They took some incredible photos from back there.

• 8:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  And they also sent them back to Earth for us to look at before they even got back here. And the photos are incredible.

• 8:08David Imel?

  They're so sick.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  And I have so many thoughts. Okay, first thing we started seeing is this is one of the, this is I guess the first mission where the astronauts were allowed to bring personal devices into space, meaning their iPhones and Android phones. And so we did get images from their smartphones as well sent back. And that's awesome. That's really interesting. Probably some of the best moon photos any phone has ever taken because they're super close to it.

• 8:32David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  We all like to think we can take moon photos from our phone, but.

• 8:35Andrew Manganelli?

  The Earth photo was the one that was popping off on Twitter.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Which was very funny.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  They looked great. They, uh, they took photos out the window of their space shuttle and you could see like Earth rise as they got further and further from Earth, the Earth got smaller and smaller and then they got closer and closer to the moon and the moon got bigger and bigger until they like slung shot around the moon. I had to Google this. They went within like 5,000 miles of the moon's surface to do that gravity slingshot. So they were really close. I mean, in the scale, in the scale of

• 9:06David Imel?

  The scale of the universe.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  They went 250,000 miles and then they got within 5,000 miles and I think that's pretty cool.

• 9:14David Imel?

  Compared to the biggest possible thing we can measure, they were pretty close.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was pretty, it was pretty interesting.

• 9:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Does anyone have any thoughts on the shot on iPhone photos that we got from Artemis? I thought they were pretty cool.

• 9:24David Imel?

  I have some thoughts.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  I thought they might end up as a billboard pretty quickly.

• 9:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Some people had takes against that. They were like, let it just, let it just happen organically.

• 9:34David Imel?

  I'm fine with that.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  It's fine if it's never a billboard, but also missed opportunity from Samsung because Samsung

• 9:39David Imel?

  Well, I saw some funny memes. Because you know the photos where they took the photo of the moon in the foreground and then Earth was in the background? Which is like the opposite of what we usually see?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:48David Imel?

  There was a really funny meme where like the moon was in the foreground and then the background was a moon. It said, "Shot on iPhone." I mean, shot at Samsung.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Samsung, yeah.

• 9:56David Imel?

  I was like, that's pretty funny.

• 9:58Andrew Manganelli?

  If Samsung took this. I saw people complaining like, wow, it's a real shame they didn't use a Samsung for this photo with a zoom. And it's like, you're in space.

• 10:06David Imel?

  You're literally in front of the moon. Why do you need?

• 10:09Andrew Manganelli?

  You don't need the zoom. You're in space. This is literally the opposite. Also, is the iPhone selfie camera?

• 10:14Speaker 01

  There was a selfie camera, yeah.

• 10:16David Imel?

  Yeah, I mean, okay, I might get canceled for this.

• 10:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Do it.

• 10:19David Imel?

  But I

• 10:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Maybe not. I'm just kidding.

• 10:22David Imel?

  No, I, I just don't think it's, people are like, wow, it's insane that this is the selfie camera. And I was like, well, yeah.

• 10:28Andrew Manganelli?

  I thought it was cool.

• 10:29David Imel?

  If you took, yeah, it is cool, but it's like, yeah, it's the selfie camera. I mean, you can do photos with the selfie camera. Like, what's, what's so insane about that?

• 10:38Andrew Manganelli?

  I guess it's like, I think more so is that this photo itself is incredible because it's Earth and we just don't see it. It really has nothing to do with the camera. Any phone could have basically taken that photo.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Perspective. It's not even so much about the phone that's taking it. It's that we have all these, like, when you open your phone camera roll and you see the photos you took and that's your perspective from the last couple of days and you know what a photo from your phone usually looks like.

• 11:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  It's just crazy to think that their camera roll, they open it up and it's a photo looking down on Earth from 250,000 miles away and like a, a shot of the moon, which is somehow right next to them. Like, that's just such a crazy thing to imagine.

• 11:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  And it, I, it kind of, I don't know, humanizes it or like puts it in a perspective for us to appreciate that that's really how it looks to them sitting, looking out that window.

• 11:27David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Pretty crazy stuff.

• 11:29Andrew Manganelli?

  It'll be funny in like 20 years when they're scrolling really far back in their gallery one day.

• 11:34David Imel?

  Memories.

• 11:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, oh, yeah. This happened six years ago, just like.

• 11:39David Imel?

  Six years ago today.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, what is the AI gonna say? Like, it'll show you your lunch or your dog, and it'll be like, you on the moon. Does it know that they were on the moon? Like, what is it gonna say?

• 11:49David Imel?

  You know how you can track your location in Google Maps, like, going back all the way?

• 11:52Andrew Manganelli?

  It's just like.

• 11:52Speaker 04

  I wonder what happens.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, what does their Find My say?

• 11:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Fog of World would have went crazy.

• 11:56David Imel?

  Fog of World is like, where did you go?

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:59David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have people's pins on Find My. Where do you think those pins went?

• 12:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, that's just off the grid, literally.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:07David Imel?

  Can I do a little camera breakdown of all the cameras that are used on this?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:11David Imel?

  Okay, so a lot of people were confused why they were using the Nikon D5, which is a camera that came out in 2016. And I've been screaming about this for years, and this is actually, like, finally starting to get better. So the reason they use the Nikon D5 is because it has a very large pixel pitch. That's the size of the pixel on the sensor. If you have a bigger pixel pitch, you get more light per pixel, which means lower noise. And for space photography, that's very important because most of the background is black.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, not a lot of light.

• 12:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  So some people are asking, why did they shoot with the Hasselblad? The Hasselblad is 100 megapixels. But each one of those pixels is tiny.

• 12:45David Imel?

  Very tiny, yeah. Yeah, so 6.4 is very big, and like 10 years ago, it was more common to have a bigger pixel. It's only 20-megapixel camera, you know, which is fine. Like, that's still a lot of resolution for, like, if you want to use it as a desktop wallpaper or something like that. It looks very DSLR-y. They did also use a Nikon Z9, which is Nikon's, like, flagship camera that's out right now. That has a pixel pitch of 4.35 micrometers, so it's a little bit smaller, still very good. 45.7 megapixels, obviously, they're gonna want to be able to zoom in on some of these pictures.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:17David Imel?

  They used a GoPro Hero 4 Black, which I saw some really cool photos of.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  They did make that an Instagram post.

• 13:23David Imel?

  Yeah, in the Instagram post.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 13:26Andrew Manganelli?

  That's like seven or eight years old at this point.

• 13:28David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 13:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Around hero 11 or 12 or something, I think.

• 13:32David Imel?

  Yeah, I was kind of curious why they did that. It might have been a similar thing with a bigger pixel pitch. I didn't actually look at what that pixel pitch was.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  I think what happens is these programs take so many years to build that they're not using typically state of the art. Like when they build this, this Artemis two thing, they're, they're using the 2019, 2020 cameras when they start building it. So even though there's newer cameras available today, that's the stuff that they started with.

• 13:57David Imel?

  Seems like that would be the easiest thing to just switch out, though, you know?

• 14:00Speaker 01

  They're probably similar resolution, but like computers and, and dimensions and stuff, they just lock that stuff in.

• 14:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's the same reason like the software used to record the podcast, the stuff called Wild Trax and like, we're generally like six or seven versions behind the most recent version because like, God forbid, you know, like, we just can't validate every single aspect.

• 14:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  If we use one too many threads and it interacts the lighting software weird and it crashes, we lose an episode. I'd much rather miss a few features and know it works.

• 14:31David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  You know?

• 14:31David Imel?

  Don't test in production.

• 14:32Speaker 03

  And that's on a podcast, like picture it in space.

• 14:37David Imel?

  Yes.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  There's no Best Buy in space.

• 14:39David Imel?

  If anything, GoPro really should have done the marketing campaign because they're like a dying company.

• 14:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Way more up there.

• 14:45Speaker 04

  I don't know if they're allowed yet. I saw someone say.

• 14:49David Imel?

  No, I know.

• 14:49Speaker 04

  Because NASA's like government funded and everything.

• 14:52David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 04

  You would have to reach out to the individual astronaut and ask them for their permission.

• 14:56David Imel?

  None of.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  Already on Instagram, but.

• 14:58David Imel?

  There was a lot of misinformation online. People were saying, oh, Apple probably paid for it and like, no, there was, there was actually confirmation that none of these companies paid to have their devices.

• 15:07Andrew Manganelli?

  It's wild to think that when you just look at like, these astronauts are from the US and what the US iPhone market share is, it's really easy to deduce that they probably have an iPhone.

• 15:16David Imel?

  And also, by the way, everyone's like, why Nikon? Why not Canon? Nikon was the first ever camera in space. And the reason that happened was because one of the astronauts just happened to be a photographer and he bought a Nikon like before he went up into space and he just took some pictures. And that was before, that was before Hasselblad, that's before Hasselblad started making their, their custom Hasselblad cameras for, for space, which they left some of those cameras on the moon, which they should have just retrieved them because they've been there since 1969 or whatever.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Oh, the cameras are still on the moon?

• 15:46David Imel?

  Yeah, the cameras are still on the moon. They just took the film backs.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 15:48David Imel?

  Because they did, they needed as least, as little weight possible to be able to get back.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Space litter. We should go retrieve those.

• 15:55David Imel?

  Next, we, yes, we have the iPhone 17 Pro Max for the candid photos of the moon through the window, which I think was very sick.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Those are fun.

• 16:04David Imel?

  They're just very sick. They're very cool.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:05David Imel?

  They had 80 to 400 millimeter lenses for close-up shots of the moon.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Those shots look insane.

• 16:11David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  I mean, we get the most detail we've ever seen of the moon. I think my favorite shots are the ones that are wide-angle through the window of the spacecraft. So you can see like the window frame and then you see what they see outside the window frame.

• 16:23David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  It, it's like, I, it's hard to picture what it would be like to be on the spacecraft, but those are the shots that help me best understand what they're seeing.

• 16:32David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 16:33David Imel?

  Yeah. And then overall, there were 28 cameras placed inside and outside the spacecraft, which is very cool. If you go to the NASA website, they're, they've been uploading all of these basically in real time. I mean, with a slight delay at the speed of light. But they're really cool. If you download the original images, you can get all the metadata for it. And these are very good OLED wallpapers. And I don't think that they're gonna be OLED, you know, right as you download them, but if you take them into Photoshop and you lower the black point to zero, then they'll become OLED.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  They'll look incredible.

• 17:01David Imel?

  So, yeah, I'm definitely planning on using one of these as a wallpaper, for sure.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  My favorite photo that I've linked in the doc, which is the second link there, it's on Flickr, is the eclipse that they saw. So when they flew around to the dark side of the moon, there were, there's a brief moment where the sun was behind the moon and the side of the moon was being lit up by a reflection of the earth. So they had the rarest solar eclipse of all time. Nobody other than these four people have ever seen this perspective of a solar eclipse. And they took a photo of the moon, which is just this ball floating in space in front of them, on a Z9. It's like a two-second exposure, and it's just the trippiest. I can't believe it's a real photo. It's insane.

• 17:45David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  And then all of the background, you see all these stars and planets lined up and galaxies in the background behind them. Incredible wallpaper material. One of my favorite photos I've ever seen, for sure.

• 17:55David Imel?

  Yeah. No, it's, it's absolutely gorgeous.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  It's already the wallpaper on my phone.

• 17:59David Imel?

  The glow in the back.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  It's awesome.

• 18:00David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, one more thing that a lot of people were curious about, they did livestream a lot of this. I remember watching the launch on NASA's YouTube channel on last Wednesday. There was like 2.8 million concurrent viewers, which is pretty sick. What a lot of people don't know is they kept streaming for a week and showing like the perspective of the astronauts as they got closer to the moon and farther from the earth. And you might be wondering how they did that because there's no internet in space.

• 18:28David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  They just were sending information directly back to, I think there's a series of three satellites on earth where at least one of them is always pointing towards the moon. Or one of them is always pointing towards a spacecraft, no matter where they were in orbit. So they were always able to send data back to earth. And that's how we have, you know, this little super low res, but effectively livestream of the astronauts. And it's a, it's one light second away tops, so it's not that much of a delay as they send that information.

• 18:55David Imel?

  Yeah, pretty cool.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Pretty awesome.

• 18:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Crazy they could livestream this whole thing, yet Netflix constantly can't get Love is Blind reunion streamed properly on time.

• 19:04David Imel?

  There's more demand for that, Andrew.

• 19:06Andrew Manganelli?

  For Love is Blind?

• 19:07David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 19:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I know.

• 19:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Andrew Manganelli?

  I think they'd get it right.

• 19:10David Imel?

  Yeah, if you wanna go see those photos, download those pictures, go to the NASA website. We could link that in the show notes to make it easier. Speaking of, I really don't know how to make this transition.

• 19:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Things that don't exist.

• 19:21David Imel?

  Things that don't exist.

• 19:23Andrew Manganelli?

  I've held saying allegedly every time you guys have talked about.

• 19:28David Imel?

  We can joke about that?

• 19:29Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't even wanna put it in.

• 19:31David Imel?

  I will say that this is real.

• 19:32Andrew Manganelli?

  No, no, stop. Don't put it in. The moon is real.

• 19:37David Imel?

  Come on.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  There is a moment, there is, there is a thing happening on social media where there's way more conspiracy theory content.

• 19:44David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Because I don't even know how to talk about it. It's just like obviously bait and it's engagement bait, but it's also like, there's never been so much of it. And it's never been so easy for dumb people to see it and probably just jump right along and believe it.

• 19:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Or, like you said, it's also, it's like that and rage bait where people want to feel smart by saying, no, you're wrong and stupid, which is engagement and makes that person money.

• 20:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  So don't engage.

• 20:11David Imel?

  Don't engage. See the rage bait, just keep scrolling. Yeah, that's how you win.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  Dude, this, this question, what was the first camera in space?

• 20:18David Imel?

  Yeah, okay, I-

• 20:19Speaker 03

  So interesting because it begs the question, what is space? And also-

• 20:23Speaker 01

  What is a photo?

• 20:24Speaker 03

  What is a camera?

• 20:25David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  This is so, this is like bonus episode gold.

• 20:28David Imel?

  Yeah, maybe we should do that. I know that the NASA has been licensing or been using Nikon cameras since like 1971 or something.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  Seventy-one, yeah.

• 20:36David Imel?

  Yeah, I knew that.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  There's some interesting-

• 20:38David Imel?

  Officially.

• 20:39Speaker 03

  There's some interesting stuff in here.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, the original Moonrise photo was a Hasselblad, right?

• 20:43Speaker 03

  Hasselblad was the first camera that NASA was like, we're gonna work with a camera company and make a space camera.

• 20:49David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 03

  John Glenn went to a drugstore and bought a Minolta that he had modified by NASA to be able to hit with a space suit.

• 20:57David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  But then in sixty-one, like a year, a few months before that, a cosmonaut brought a sixteen millimeter camera, like a Soviet sixteen millimeter camera, but then also it seems like there were submissions with automated TV cameras outs like- There's some interesting, I think we should dive deeper into this.

• 21:15David Imel?

  Yeah, so Hasselblad made special versions of the Hasselblad 500 series cameras that basically are pump action because the astronauts wear space suits. When you, the regular Hasselblad 500 CM has like a small little shutter button that is like very hard to, even with your regular finger, it kind of like pricks your finger a little bit. Not actually like through your finger, but it's like kind of hard to use. Anyway-

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Bad design.

• 21:37David Imel?

  They made it a pump action and then there's only three distance settings. There's close, medium, and far. I, they made a replica series, twenty years later, they made a replica series of those cameras that they made a thousand of, which I own one of them because I'm crazy. And they made these special backs that could fit like way more film than most cameras. But I should have brought that in. Maybe I'll bring it in next week and I can show you guys. It's pretty cool.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Sick.

• 22:01David Imel?

  Speaking of-

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Did they have really cool things?

• 22:05David Imel?

  Yeah, I guess. I don't know. Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Speaking of really cool things-

• 22:07David Imel?

  Better than what I had.

• 22:08Speaker 03

  Rolls of something.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Rolls of-

• 22:10David Imel?

  Good call. They weren't really rolls, they were kind of sheets.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  We did get to see Zach from Jerry Get Everything do a teardown of a phone that never shipped because it's LG's rollable phone. Fun fact, there's one in the mail here now.

• 22:26David Imel?

  What?

• 22:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, like, we got it. I know it's on the way.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  I have my sources.

• 22:30Andrew Manganelli?

  This is breaking news to us in the studio.

• 22:33David Imel?

  Yeah, that's every week. That's every week.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  So LG died in 2021 is when they shut down their smartphone division. They stopped making phones. Yeah, 2021. I believe that's right. And so...

• 22:46Speaker 03

  That's like, that's a crazy way to say you murdered them.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  No. I was gonna say, the last two phones, actually, the last two phones that they shipped before they died was the V60 and the LG Wing. And I had a lot of nice things to say about the LG Wing, as insane as that phone was.

• 23:03David Imel?

  Crazy.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  But here's the thing about phones like the LG Wing. No one else would try that.

• 23:06David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  And that's why we love LG.

• 23:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  And that's why they're dead.

• 23:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  So, look, they also had a phone in the works that was like a rollable phone that went from a 5.5-inch phone and then kind of unrolled, motorized like a parchment to an 8-inch phone.

• 23:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 23:22David Imel?

  Could have had it all rolling in the deep.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:27Andrew Manganelli?

  That's a... Is that streetlight?

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so Zach got his hands on one. We will as well soon. And he immediately did a teardown, which is so his style. And you can see how over-engineered this thing is. There's two motors. There's two motors. There's this metal track inside. There's three spring-loaded arms. The whole thing like, like, plays, it doesn't play a sound. It makes noise as it opens. And as it makes so much noise, they play like a musical chime to sort of...

• 23:56David Imel?

  Turn it up.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  So it's really, it's quite a piece of engineering, just like the Wing was. It's insane. And it never shipped. We don't know what they would have charged for it, what they would have called it, how they would have marketed it. But I do plan on trying to use it.

• 24:10David Imel?

  I'm excited to get that. I'm not seeing the video, but I am terrified at what that's gonna be like when he takes the knife to the screen.

• 24:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, no, he doesn't do it.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  He didn't do it in that video.

• 24:20David Imel?

  Thank God.

• 24:21Andrew Manganelli?

  It was just a break.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's still time. He could do that. But I suspect a phone like this would not be very durable.

• 24:27David Imel?

  No.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  It would not hold water and dust out very well.

• 24:29David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  It has a soft outer screen totally exposed all the time.

• 24:33Andrew Manganelli?

  No, that's what was really cool about it is when it folds into the back, there's an exterior glass screen that it folds underneath on the backside. And then so on the back, it's not the soft touchscreen. I guess you're saying the front of it is the soft touch all the time. But the back works when it's not unrolled as a back screen, which is really cool. I actually like, the way they engineered this thing was really impressive and probably would have been better, made more sense than the LG Wing. It kind of was like, remember the Xiaomi concept that was like, we said like 200% screen to body ratio? Yeah, it basically had a screen covering 60% of the back of it. Because it rolled around the backside.

• 25:16Andrew Manganelli?

  But the internals are really cool, the way it kind of, those spring loaded arms are actually pushing the whole battery and internal module with the screen. There's some cool stuff. Definitely go check out his video. But yeah, he doesn't destroy it. He just actually uses it and takes it apart. It's the most careful I've ever seen Zach be. Where he's like, I am shaking opening this right now. And it's really funny.

• 25:38David Imel?

  That's not the type of vibe you want for a phone that you use.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  It's like a relic. It's like, you don't want to do any damage to it. It'll be interesting to see when we get it here, if like, using it in real life. Cause you know, the front screen is soft and it's, it's never really protected as you use the phone. So it's, it's, there's no way it's as durable as a regular phone.

• 25:54David Imel?

  Yeah, no.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  But, you know.

• 25:56David Imel?

  I do like that sort of half screen on the back. It's really cool. Just uses to see like his calendar and stuff like that. I think that that's pretty smart.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Viewfinder for the camera.

• 26:05David Imel?

  I would, I would buy this.

• 26:06Andrew Manganelli?

  It's cool. You should definitely go watch that. And I'm excited to see this thing.

• 26:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Speaking of alternate form factors.

• 26:12David Imel?

  And never getting shipped. What, I guess it was shipped.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Well, this might ship. This probably will ship. iPhone Fold. Actually, this entire week, there's been articles both about how the folding iPhone is maybe delayed and not going to ship in 2026. And then maybe it's actually not so delayed and it is going to ship in 2026.

• 26:30Andrew Manganelli?

  And both of those articles were posted from the same website on the same day. Which is why, the only reason I added this, I think it's so funny that Mac Rumors had an article called Foldable iPhone Engineering Delays Could Push Launch to 2027. And also iPhone Fold Expected to Launch on Time in September Despite Delay Rumors.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  So is this what hedging your bet looks like in real time? This is crazy. It's a nothing ever happens theorem.

• 26:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Basically, both of these articles were just two different sources saying what they think is going to happen. One's German, one's a Japanese newspaper, I believe. I cannot pronounce the name of the who wrote the article. But the one thing I did find interesting in terms of what they seem to agree on is while this is most likely going to be announced at the same time as the iPhone 18, even if it's quote unquote on time, it probably will not be delivered the same time as the iPhone 18. So I have no idea if this is going to be 2026. I think we will see the announcement in 2026. There's a chance this could be 2027.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, wouldn't be the first time we've seen like a staggered release of the phones. I don't know if you remember the mini and the plus when they came out.

• 27:39David Imel?

  But that was only a month later.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  It was only a month later.

• 27:41Speaker 04

  Wasn't the iPhone 10 also a little after the?

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, true, exactly.

• 27:44Andrew Manganelli?

  10 was after and mini and that was COVID. That was like three though, wasn't it? It was like a couple, there was like three different dates of.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna remember the exact order, but it was something like the mini and the Pro Max came out after the regular and the plus or something like, like a month and a half later. Which was, you know, easier to make videos about because they were staggered.

• 28:07Andrew Manganelli?

  That was great, actually.

• 28:08David Imel?

  Do we want to take bets on this?

• 28:09Andrew Manganelli?

  We already did.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Did we?

• 28:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh. We've definitely taken bets on if iPhone Fold is coming out this year.

• 28:15David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah. But we got new information. So do you think that it will be announced and then come out later, like in 2027? Or do you think it will be announced and come out in 2026?

• 28:25Speaker 01

  I would not be shocked at all if we got this big fancy folding iPhone Ultra and they said coming early next year. Or coming in December.

• 28:32Andrew Manganelli?

  September?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Maybe not early, maybe December or something like that. I could easily see it being a staggered release to build some hype.

• 28:38Andrew Manganelli?

  That's a really stack. How, how far away can it be to still be considered a staggered release?

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Typically, when they release a new iPhone, it comes out like what, two, three weeks later?

• 28:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 28:49David Imel?

  My take is that if you announce something and then you wait too long, people stop caring. But Google had this problem with the pixel. Every time Google has launched a Pixel Fold, it's come out a couple of months later and people just forget. Also.

• 29:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Every Sony phone ever.

• 29:02David Imel?

  Sony, yeah, Sony freaking announces them in September and they always come out in December and then no one buys it. Shocker.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Bro, that they're proud of that, too. I remember I talked about like some of the Sony stuff. It was like 10 months later. They were coming out with the phone and then they finally made huge strides and they were like, Marquez, we came out with the phone only three months after we announced it, which is a big improvement, but it's still way too long. Wait, just wait till it's done and ready to ship and then show it off and then ship it. Anyway, that's another story.

• 29:31Andrew Manganelli?

  That every company that's ever existed.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, but yeah, I, I think it would probably make sense as like a month and a half staggered. Here comes the ultra type of thing.

• 29:42David Imel?

  I could see it.

• 29:43Speaker 04

  I got a hot take. Okay, we're gonna see this at Dub Dub.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  See it? No shot. Zero percent.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  I think they're, well, no, your whole showing it off like with folding iPhone be like coming later this, I think that's gonna happen at Dub Dub.

• 29:54David Imel?

  Like we did with the Vision Pro.

• 29:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, and then the phone itself will come out this year, but later.

• 29:59David Imel?

  That's possible.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  I have it. I have a, I'm so torn on this. I love that take because I, part of me is like 0% no shot that happens. Dub Dub is for development and is for software and any sort of hardware announcement overshadows all the stuff they want to show like iOS 28. But on the other hand, the times that they do show new hardware, it's specifically exciting to developers and things like the Mac Pro, which people could get excited to develop on, Vision Pro, which people could get excited to develop for.

• 30:27David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  And folding phone, you know, if you're making apps, you kind of want to start thinking about how to optimize your app for different screen sizes. So maybe it does make sense to do that.

• 30:37David Imel?

  Unless, unless they basically just make it so it's automatic and it basically becomes an iPad.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  I mean, that's the thing they'll, they'll do for sure. That's gonna be their strength is like you add one line of code and now it's amazing. Like you can make an iPad app by clicking one button, basically.

• 30:52David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  But maybe you want to have some special, you know, animation for the unfolding or something. I don't know.

• 30:58Speaker 04

  I think it makes sense like that. I just think Dub Dub this year is gonna be too much worrying about having to re-announce Siri 2.0.

• 31:05David Imel?

  That's why I think they're gonna do it.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  I think to cover that up.

• 31:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, it'll be like, look at the excitement of the.

• 31:11David Imel?

  Folding phone, forget about liquid ass.

• 31:13Andrew Manganelli?

  But that's gonna look so bad if it's like, we have to re-announce the thing that's two years late, and here's a thing that might be late again.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  I think they could spin it, because you know what's starting to happen?

• 31:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Pretend anything's gonna happen.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Well, the thing that I've, the take I've seen more and more online is that Apple being late to AI has actually been the best version of AI, which is, you know, all these phones are just shoving AI down our throats, and Apple's kind of not doing that so much, and that's refreshing. We have

• 31:41David Imel?

  It's also because

• 31:42Speaker 01

  And they stick to what they're good at, which is good hardware. It's also because Apple didn't really spend billions of dollars investing in this kind of stuff, and now that AI is becoming so commodified, they kind of have like their pick of the litter on what they want to utilize, right? So they, they picked Gemini because they had all these options. They didn't have all those options when ChatGPT in the iPhone got announced. That was like, kind of the only thing that they could do. And now it's like this awkward like middle child that's like in the iPhone in a weird way, and they're probably gonna get rid of that, and yeah.

• 32:10Andrew Manganelli?

  It's nice that they can do it, but it's also really funny knowing that they tried, and that was not the original plan, and that they failed.

• 32:17David Imel?

  But they failed upwards.

• 32:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, they got very lucky on that.

• 32:20David Imel?

  You're gonna fail.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:21David Imel?

  And their stock is the only one that has not been impacted by the AI stuff.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, you think of Apple as this huge tech company, and if AI is the next big huge tech, then they must be a player in that space. But they're not a player in every space. They don't make everything. So, you know, search engine, they don't make. They, you know, borrow the best one and show it to their users as a default, and maybe that's

• 32:46David Imel?

  It's not released.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, exactly.

• 32:47David Imel?

  They definitely may.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  They don't, they're not a public competitor in that space.

• 32:51David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  And I think that that's kind of ending up true of AI, where, okay, there's all these models, there's all these advanced development. They tried to jump in, it didn't really work, but they still, their bread and butter is still the device that you use to do the AI stuff on.

• 33:05David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  People are clamoring to buy Mac Studios, to finally have enough VRAM. If you could tether three of them together with Thunderbolt, you can have a machine that runs OpenClaw, and everything's local. Like, that's, people are buying Apple hardware still.

• 33:16David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  And that's probably gonna continue to be true.

• 33:19David Imel?

  Yeah, and I think ultimately, they They're realizing that people use different AIs for different use cases. And so they just want to be the the main thing that runs the thing. They don't want to be choosing what you use with it. Like, Apple Intelligence, at the end of the day, is just an extension of things that the phone could basically already do. And so that doesn't need to be the thing that does everything. Like, you're gonna use Claude on your phone, you're gonna use Gemini on your phone, you're gonna use OpenAI, ChatGPT on your phone, if that's the service that you use. Yeah. And so, you know, Google obviously has both and makes it. But at the end of the day, that could be a negative for them because if Google's trying to force you to use Gemini, and then things work better with Gemini than they do with, say, Claude, and you're like a Claude power user,

• 34:00David Imel?

  you might be more incentivized to use the iPhone that gives you more of a choice to use what AI you want to use. Yeah. So.

• 34:08Speaker 04

  There is no world in which that happens.

• 34:11David Imel?

  Why?

• 34:11Speaker 04

  There's no way that Google, the open one, would be more closed down with which AI you can use than Apple.

• 34:18David Imel?

  But like Gemini is so embedded in Android.

• 34:21Speaker 04

  That's on, like Gemini will always have its, uh, like, yeah, and its Android tie and its inherent, like, abilities to do more, but they're not gonna actively make you not use Gemini.

• 34:34David Imel?

  No, I know that, but it would be annoying if you're doing various things on your phone and it's prompting you to use Gemini. It's actively trying to move you towards a Gemini subscription.

• 34:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I could just, like, right now, I could just change it to Claude, like, in the settings.

• 34:49David Imel?

  Change what to Claude?

• 34:50Speaker 04

  My my assistant.

• 34:51David Imel?

  I think that that's probably what people are gonna want from their phone is the well-integrated thing, which is why it felt like it made sense for Apple Intelligence to be really good, because that's gonna be the one that works the best across all these Apple surfaces. It's gonna pull my messages and it's gonna pull my Google, my calendar from Apple Calendar and all these other Apple things. So I want the Apple Intelligence AI to be good on my Apple device. And of course Gemini will be good across all these Google services, pull from my Google Drive, Google Photos, Google whatever. So that's what we were hoping for from Apple Intelligence, but now they're just kind of giving us the choice of other ones that don't really talk to Apple stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  I'm not a businessman. I don't know how money works. However, I've always understood Google's whole business model to be we're gonna either sell our hardware at a loss or with the slimmest possible margin we can do. Because you're gonna use all these Google services and we can harvest your data.

• 35:48David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 03

  And so I kind of agree with David. I see going forward, Google's gonna be like, eh, you're using Gemini. Because if someone buys a Pixel and then uses Claude, they're losing money on that sale.

• 35:59David Imel?

  That's an L for Google.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  You bought the Pixel. Yeah.

• 36:01David Imel?

  No, so on a.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  Pixel.

• 36:02David Imel?

  Google, that's an L for Google.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  That's a Google, that's an L for, yeah, I'm saying Google all of a sudden is not making, like, they're still harvesting all your data because they're using a Pixel. But they need the Gemini data, I think, to really make it worth it.

• 36:13Speaker 04

  I think, my thing is that no AI is making money anyway. Google can just burn money because they own the internet.

• 36:19Speaker 03

  No, but. Google will make money by getting training, training data off of your Gemini chats and then also using the data they get from you via your Gemini chats to make your ads more targeted.

• 36:31Speaker 04

  But they're getting that data already from the iPhone, which is giving them a billion dollars on top of that.

• 36:35David Imel?

  I think they're getting.

• 36:36Speaker 04

  They need the 3% of Pixel users to use Gemini. They're gonna let you use Anthropic.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  Guys, I think I might have just gotten clapped back.

• 36:43David Imel?

  But what I'm saying, what I'm saying is like, Google is always going to be pushing you towards Gemini, right? Because all of their services, all of the things on the phone, like, it's so embedded into the phone that it's easier to use Gemini. And so if you're like a Claude super user, you might be kind of annoyed that like, now half of my contacts is in Gemini and the other half is in Claude. And whether or not that ends up being a thing that incentivizes people to buy an iPhone, it probably won't be. But it's just kind of an interesting interaction because of the way that AI has been commodified.

• 37:12Speaker 04

  Well, more so, my thing, my point was, I don't think there's a world where Apple is more open with that kind of thing with sharing the context between different AIs than Google.

• 37:21David Imel?

  I kind of disagree with that.

• 37:22Speaker 04

  Specifically because Apple has the servers that they're making with Google in partnership. Like Anthropic has servers from AWS, they have servers from Azure, they have servers everywhere. Apple is not gonna let your data go to some random server. They want control of the server, which they have a partnership with Google.

• 37:37David Imel?

  Yeah, and like the things that happen like autonomously with the phone are obviously like through Apple, through. Google through those servers that are, you know, nothing touches it. I just think they care less about what AI that you use versus Google really, really wants you to use Gemini. And the market incentives will probably push them towards making Gemini the, the choice they want you to, you know.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  I think you both have really, really valid points in the sense that I still, I really see where you're coming from. Where it's like, Google doesn't have as much of an incentive to lock you into Gemini as I thought they might have at the outset of this conversation.

• 38:08David Imel?

  I think.

• 38:09Speaker 03

  But also I do think Apple's opinion on this matter would change a lot more than Google's. When you're talking about just like a normal generative transformer versus something agentic that's like monkeying around in your phone.

• 38:21David Imel?

  For sure. Yeah.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  I think there's also probably a world where a lot of people at Google believe that if you do use.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  Sorry, Andrew's face.

• 38:29Speaker 04

  No, my pixel makes me want to never touch Gemini.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  Mark has, please, I'm sorry to interrupt.

• 38:34David Imel?

  Go ahead.

• 38:35Speaker 03

  The look on Andrew's face was.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  I guess I think that there's probably a lot of people at Google who believe that they want you to use Gemini. Because that represents like the next stage of all of the data harvesting that they do. And if you start using a different AI and start doing all these searches and all these queries and all this stuff. That represents a bunch of data that they're not getting.

• 38:54David Imel?

  A hundred percent.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  And so if they're, if they're allowing people to move on from Gemini to a bunch of other stuff. And then they slowly get less and less data from the old ways of gathering data, then they miss jumping the boat.

• 39:06David Imel?

  Yeah. I mean, think about this, they're basically transitioning from Google search being their primary revenue driver to Gemini. So if they're not getting as, if they don't have as many Gemini users, that's like a huge impact for them.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  That's what, that's what.

• 39:17Speaker 04

  I'm just, I'm trying to envision a world where I can go into the iPhone settings and change Siri to Claude. Versus going into the Pixel settings and changing Gemini to anthropic, like to Claude. And I'm trying to think which one is more likely to happen.

• 39:31David Imel?

  iPhone.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  Really?

• 39:33David Imel?

  Because that, just because of who's a player in the game, I think. Like, the way you can choose your search engine now on the iPhone, you could just move it from Google to whatever you want. Is the same, because they don't make their own search engine. I think when there is a Claude, an Anthropic, and a GPT, and a Gemini, you can do that on the iPhone and pick your model as well, because they don't have a competitor in that space.

• 39:52Speaker 03

  But not to just regurgitate Adam's earlier point, but like, I totally think that's the case with a chat. However, if everyone's trying to get these agentic models that can actually do stuff inside your phone, I have, it seems to me like a more uphill thing, getting Apple to let an agent run on someone else's servers. And I, I can't believe Apple would want us, want to set up their own data centers.

• 40:17David Imel?

  Well, the agentic-

• 40:18Speaker 03

  To run agentic, other people's agentic models?

• 40:21David Imel?

  The agentic stuff is probably going to be a local Gemini nano model, which is different from the things that are hitting the servers.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  That's, yeah, but that sucks. I want, I want, I want local Claude. I want local-

• 40:31David Imel?

  Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think that Apple is going to allow multiple different models for that, because they want the user experience to be unique and the same across all devices. I could see Apple eventually working with Anthropic and OpenAI for the stuff, the AI stuff that happens in the cloud, because then they're creating a marketplace where they can reduce the cost that they're paying to those model providers. And also it gives people the option to, you know, use whatever commodity that they use.

• 41:00Speaker 03

  Hear me out, we do a bonus episode?

• 41:02Andrew Manganelli?

  This feels like a-

• 41:03David Imel?

  Yeah, sorry. This is like the whole episode.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  We get Tim Cook, we get Sundar, we get Sam, and we just go, who was right? Tell us who was right. Which one of us was right? Was it me?

• 41:13David Imel?

  I want to do a cage match.

• 41:14Andrew Manganelli?

  This was not supposed to go on this long.

• 41:16David Imel?

  Sorry, we were talking about the iPhone fold.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  No, but it's an interesting, is an interesting question, and it's one that we will get the answer to, I think.

• 41:22David Imel?

  In a couple of months.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  Pretty soon, yeah. So, and then, and then we'll find out who was right.

• 41:28David Imel?

  Yeah. Okay, Andrew, you see that up by the moon? That's the rails. We are so far off the rails. Wow.

• 41:33Andrew Manganelli?

  I was gonna add my one thing about AI phones, which is, my Pixel, I, I came across this thing the other day where I was like, my Google Home, my like Nest doorbell, isn't giving me notifications anymore. What broke on this? And I realized- I turned it off because I was getting so annoyed at I changed my Google Home camera stuff for the notifications to like, it says you can use AI to search through activities that happen, but what it really does is not just that, but every time it sends a notification, it's this like really long, terrible sentence about what may have happened. And I got so annoyed at the notifications of like, a person walks up from a delivery janitor thing. It's just like, I just want to see there's a person at the door. That's all you have to tell me.

• 42:18Andrew Manganelli?

  And having 30 of those notifications, I guess I got so mad, I turned it off one day and forgot, and then realized a month later.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  And there aren't like granular settings to.

• 42:27Andrew Manganelli?

  There might be something in there now. I just wanted it to be able to search like, did somebody drop something off between two and four?

• 42:34Speaker 01

  And that should work.

• 42:35Andrew Manganelli?

  That's, I think it.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  The search part works.

• 42:37Andrew Manganelli?

  But the notifications are insufferable. And it's, it's so bad. And it also, even though all of my family's faces are attached in there, it correctly identifies the person one out of 40 times.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 42:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Despite almost looking directly at the camera, like face scanning.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Mine's pretty good. I, I did, I remember the day I started getting the new notifications because it would always just be like, person, person, person, movement, person. Now it's like a UPS driver dropped off a medium sized box at the door. And I'm like, I.

• 43:12Andrew Manganelli?

  But then you click that and it's like Claire coming home with groceries.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Mine has been pretty squirrel. Mine has been, I would say it might have been like 90% way too accurate and then 10% totally off.

• 43:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, mine's 90% totally off.

• 43:26Speaker 03

  While we're talking about Ring, shout out to the new Ben Jordan video. Another absolute banger. It's terrifying.

• 43:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Surveillance. I just like to say hi to everyone watching me when I.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. All right. Well, um, that went quite a while. Can someone transition?

• 43:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Samsung Messages is getting shut down.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, thanks.

• 43:44Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, yeah, it actually is a good segue because that segue was as abrupt as Samsung shutting down Samsung Messages. Cause they're basically like, yo, peace, this is gone, July.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  That's kind of a segue within a segue.

• 43:56Speaker 03

  What is Samsung Messages?

• 43:58Speaker 01

  So maybe like a decade ago.

• 44:01Speaker 04

  Oh, boy.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  If you bought a Samsung phone. No, this is not.

• 44:03Speaker 04

  No, no.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  I'll make a chart. I'll make a chart.

• 44:04Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no. Yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Samsung used to ship their own messages app. And, you know, every, you know, you bought a Samsung phone and there'd be Samsung messages and have its own chime and have its own layout. It was just exactly like Google Messages or whatever. And I would always actually go to the Play Store and download Google Messages because I liked it better. And then one day, maybe five, six years ago, I'm not sure exactly when.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  Six or seven.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  They, six, seven years ago, they started just shipping Samsung phones with Google Messages by default. Like, they stopped shipping it with Samsung Messages. They still supported it and it still existed, but they just accepted that people just use Google Messages when they buy an Android phone. Uh, and now it's a couple of years later and they're like, alright, we're not gonna keep supporting Samsung Messages. So whatever servers, whatever service there was, it's gone. If you still actually use Samsung Messages.

• 44:49Speaker 04

  Be very careful.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:51Speaker 04

  The thread on the Samsung subreddit is very upset.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Well, if I'm on the Samsung subreddit, I probably am more likely to be a user of Samsung Messages.

• 44:59Speaker 04

  Just saying.

• 44:59Andrew Manganelli?

  What's crazy is that two months heads up.

• 45:02Speaker 04

  That's wild.

• 45:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, that's crazy. That's a really fast.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  That's so fast. That's pretty fast.

• 45:05David Imel?

  What happens when it EOLs?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Uh, I assume you can't send messages using the app anymore.

• 45:10David Imel?

  That'd be insane.

• 45:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Um. It's gotta be.

• 45:13David Imel?

  It should just update and auto-download Google Messages and replace it.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  I mean, that's essentially what you're gonna wanna do at this point.

• 45:19David Imel?

  Yeah, but it's crazy that they're making people do that manually.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Well, I think they accepted that this would happen at some point, like five years ago, when they stopped shipping it as a default on their devices. But they should've given people a heads up way, way long ago when they stopped shipping as a default, that, hey, we're gonna shut this down at some point. They probably just didn't know they were gonna do it. Now they just decided they're doing it and they're doing it two months, so.

• 45:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, my dad's on a Samsung. I doubt he's gonna know to update before June or July.

• 45:45David Imel?

  But is it update or is it you also have to download Google Messages?

• 45:49Speaker 04

  That's a great question.

• 45:50Andrew Manganelli?

  I didn't understand what you're saying. Yeah, for the people who don't know, not everyone's gonna see this thing. Are they just gonna, what, three days later be like, I haven't had a text in a little while?

• 45:59Speaker 03

  Don't worry, it's totally okay. Everyone knows Android users notoriously awesome at keeping their phones up to date. Literally the best user base for hitting the update button. They're gonna be fine.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  The Verge says 2024 is when they started shipping as a default Google Messages. I feel like it was way before that.

• 46:15David Imel?

  Well, they did it because of RCS. They were trying to like really force people onto Google Messages because for a while, Google Messages and weirdly like Verizon Messages were the only apps that supported RCS. And then they had that weird bromance with Google for a long time that sort of is still in action, but not as much anymore. Yeah, I don't know. It's strange.

• 46:35Speaker 04

  Can I rant about the time? Sorry. Quick tangent.

• 46:38David Imel?

  I like it.

• 46:38Speaker 04

  Because it has to do with Google Messages.

• 46:40Andrew Manganelli?

  First ad breaks could be 57 minutes, the next.

• 46:44Speaker 04

  I got ratioed so hard on threads.

• 46:48David Imel?

  What did you do?

• 46:50Speaker 04

  I posted a screenshot of Google Messages on a Samsung device and I circled the whole top half of the screen. It just says Google Messages, like the logo.

• 46:59David Imel?

  Right.

• 46:59Speaker 04

  And I'm like, why is this here?

• 47:01David Imel?

  I agree with you.

• 47:02Speaker 04

  That's so, like, half of the screen is just unusable information.

• 47:05David Imel?

  Why would you get ratioed for that?

• 47:06Speaker 04

  Everyone was like, bro, just scroll. And I'm like, I know how apps work. I'm saying, why isn't there useful information here?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Wait, there was a moment where everyone applauded that white space. They were like, wow, how thoughtful. I can reach my top message.

• 47:19Speaker 04

  So that's the whole point. Yeah, that's why I'm getting ratioed because one UI is like for one-handedness. And it's like, yeah, I know. I'm saying it's stupid because if you go to like Samsung phone app, they make use of that space. It's not things that you can tap or whatever, but it'll tell you like you have a missed call. You have like useful information. Why don't I have that in other places?

• 47:36David Imel?

  I have a question for you. Because I haven't used Google Messages in a while. If you, can you pin message threads or messages?

• 47:43Speaker 04

  You can, and it stays in the middle. It doesn't pin to the top the way it does on Apple.

• 47:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Adam's just saying it should be usable space. I think that's totally fair.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  Or not even like, well, yeah, I guess usable, but like, tell me some sort of useful information.

• 47:56David Imel?

  It should just be a clock.

• 47:57Speaker 04

  Like, just be a clock. I would be happy with that.

• 48:00David Imel?

  It's a clock.

• 48:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, it's gonna be ads one day.

• 48:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Next, next topic.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Don't give them those ideas.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  It's just gonna be a giant Gemini button at some point.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Samsung Messages is shutting down. Less choice sucks. We're gonna leave a little pause here for all the people who are about to type. Just use WhatsApp. Go on, do it. I don't want you to miss any more of the episode. Got it? Almost. Little angrier. Perfect.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  Less choice does suck, but I would never be sad to see Verizon Messages Plus implode. That's all I'm gonna say. Just saying.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  That's a good thing.

• 48:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Fair.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  That's a good thing. Yeah, alright. Well, we should take a quick break. We have talked for a, quite a while about a bunch of things, and now we should do trivia.

• 48:44Andrew Manganelli?

  The next one's gonna be a nice, simple, little section.

• 48:47Speaker 03

  Well, it could be simple for the beginning of the.

• 48:49Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm just kidding. It literally says debate. There's no choice.

• 48:54Speaker 03

  It's not really debate. I think we're all on the same page.

• 48:55Andrew Manganelli?

  We are not.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 48:57Andrew Manganelli?

  I know, no, yeah.

• 48:58Speaker 03

  Good to know this.

• 48:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Trivia.

• 49:00Speaker 03

  Trivia. Little bit of foreshadowing after the break. We're gonna talk about what is, in my opinion, the craziest tech news story of the year, assuming no one's lying, Anthropic's Project Glasswing. But the question is, where does the term "glasswing" come from? And it's multiple choice. A, glasswing is an experimental F1 rear wing design from the ground effect era of cars. B, a glasswing is a Central American butterfly with transparent wings. C, a glasswing is a type of parachute used by first responders to jump into dense forest canopies. Or D, it's an acronym. General Layer Analysis Screening with Integrated Neural GPTs.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  GPT standing for Generative Pre-trained Transformer.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Nested, nested acronym.

• 49:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Nested acronym's wild.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Okay, that is, uh, I definitely wouldn't have gotten that without the multiple choice. I still might not get it, but we'll think about that. Answers will be at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

• 50:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't think I want my parachute to be called a glasswing.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Framer. If you want to create a website that looks great, feels handcrafted, and comes together fast and seamlessly, then look no further than Framer. It's a complete website platform, not just a builder, so teams can launch and keep improving their sites in one place. It helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production-ready websites faster than ever while getting every detail right. You're able to prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace. On Framer, agents and humans work in tandem. Agents bring speed and scale, while people bring taste, judgment, and control. And that all takes place in the same workspace where the real site is designed and managed and reviewed and published. Those ideas land on the canvas, stay editable, and can be published when the team is ready. Framer is an enterprise-level solution.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Thousands of businesses from early-stage startups to Fortune 500s are choosing to build their websites in Framer, where changes take minutes instead of days. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist, or get started building for free today at framer.com/wave for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/wave. Rules and restrictions may apply.

• 51:20Speaker 05

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• 52:04Speaker 06

  Support for the show comes from Google Gemini. You know that moment when curiosity strikes? You're exploring a new city with the family and a sculpture catches your daughter's eye. What is that? Who made it? With Gemini, you can snap a picture and get a fully interactive breakdown of its history, architecture, and even hidden secrets. Gemini is built for moments like that. Whether you're learning something new, solving a problem, or looking for your next favorite thing, Google Gemini is here to help. Download Gemini, Google's AI app, or visit gemini.google.com to learn more.

• 52:42Andrew Manganelli?

  All right, welcome back. Got a little debate for y'all. So David Pierce wrote an article on The Verge this week called "Vertical Browser Tabs Are Better and You Should Use Them," about how Chrome finally added vertical tabs to their browser, and then listed out some of the reasons why you should use them. So I know a lot of us on this podcast have very strong opinions about vertical tabs. So I thought the best thing to do is to talk about how we like them or don't like them, list some of the reasons David Pierce laid out, and in true podcast fashion, we can debate him in a situation where he can't defend himself.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 53:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:15David Imel?

  So he's very pro vertical tabs. David, on the next Vergecast episode, you will respond. This is how we start YouTube drama. You gotta make response videos. Yeah, that's actually valid. And we haven't done this yet, so it's time.

• 53:28Andrew Manganelli?

  I think it's time. Let's all start. I think you two are pro vertical tabs, right?

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Uh, here's my browser right here. Vertical tabs on the side. Yeah.

• 53:35David Imel?

  You think I'm pro vertical tabs? That should be common knowledge.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  It's also 75% of why I started using Arc.

• 53:43David Imel?

  Yeah, Arc. I mean, in the episode where I talked about Arc for the first time, I explained it so horribly, but the only thing where I was like, "This is amazing," was vertical tabs.

• 53:52Andrew Manganelli?

  What about you two?

• 53:54Speaker 04

  Vertical tabs all day.

• 53:55Andrew Manganelli?

  That was... Yeah, thank you.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, horizontal tabs.

• 53:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Horizontal tabs all day.

• 54:00David Imel?

  Interesting. And is this because you haven't tried or you dislike vertical?

• 54:05Andrew Manganelli?

  His screen is square.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  That's actually very important for this. I know. Very valid for this.

• 54:10David Imel?

  Even better, though.

• 54:11Speaker 03

  My, my, when I'm a browser, um, I'm one of those people who is like stuck in the year 2011 and I use, uh, command and one through nine to go through my tabs. So.

• 54:24David Imel?

  You just have to rise which tab is in which number.

• 54:27Speaker 03

  It's not really like a, I mean, I guess, you make it sound like it's a big mental task.

• 54:31David Imel?

  Sounds like one.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  That's how you switch between tabs, but you still have all of your tabs up at the top of your browser.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, but the buttons are horizontal.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, interesting. Oh, so maybe there's a little mental, uh, alignment.

• 54:43Speaker 03

  No, it's just wrong the other way. Like, like, sorry.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  That's valid. Okay.

• 54:48Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm pro horizontal tabs with that one.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Pro horizontal. And does that mean you are anti-vertical?

• 54:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:53Speaker 03

  I would.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  I'd be down with like a grid of tabs and then I could use the numpad for that. But they need to be, they need to be in the same shape, like a three by three grid of tabs.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Do you have a numpad?

• 55:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, on all my computers. Pro Tools pretty much requires you to have a numpad.

• 55:09Speaker 03

  Uh, I use my laptop almost exclusively in dock mode with a keyboard with.

• 55:13Andrew Manganelli?

  And like 400 peripherals?

• 55:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. I'm out of, uh, I'm sorry. I'm out of USB ports on every single setup I have. Which is hilarious because I have a Calmate TS5. Like, it's just, anyway.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Everything.

• 55:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm, I like, I like horizontal tabs, but I'm also a Safari user.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 55:32Speaker 03

  So I don't know if my opinions are super valid.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  That's crazy. I, I, it's crazy that you're, you use Safari because if you, if you're docked all the time, the battery life doesn't really matter.

• 55:44David Imel?

  And Safari is only good for one thing, which is battery life.

• 55:47Andrew Manganelli?

  I like the icon. Not gonna lie.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Unfortunately.

• 55:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Commonly accepted facts.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Commonly accepted.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  Accepted by who? Lunatics?

• 55:55Speaker 01

  I would say ask any browser enthusiast.

• 55:57Speaker 03

  This is not what this conversation was supposed to be about.

• 55:59Andrew Manganelli?

  What are we debating?

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Hang on, Ellis.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  Reason Safari is goaded. It's, okay, one, I'm on an Apple Silicon laptop. Battery life is gonna be legit, no matter what or where I'm going.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  No, no, it's not.

• 56:12Speaker 03

  Bro, I'm like, I'm a super turbo power user. I can at least get like four hours of battery life.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  The difference between Chrome and Safari in regular browsing for several hours is shockingly high.

• 56:24David Imel?

  Huge.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  Really?

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Is dramatic.

• 56:26Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  This laptop lasts, is terrifyingly long lasting battery on Safari is average at best with Chrome.

• 56:34Speaker 03

  Wait, so, so why are we hating on Safari then?

• 56:36Speaker 01

  I'm, so you're saying you use it docked so that the performance and efficiency battery gains that you get are effectively not important at all?

• 56:45Speaker 03

  No, the performance is super important.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Performance is great.

• 56:48Speaker 03

  I like having RAM on my computer.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Valid, and I think there's, there's a little bit more of a, obviously, people, depends on how much RAM you have, where this argument becomes more important, but the, like, how long it takes to open the browser, I notice Safari's faster. And then, once I'm into browsing, I notice effectively no difference. And the battery life is the main thing that I would use Safari for.

• 57:09Speaker 03

  Interesting. My thinking is, one, I do a lot of RAM-heavy tasks all the time. I really like having as much RAM free as possible at any given moment. Love that. Two, I'm a little bit of a security freak. Like, over the past few months, I've become like way, way, way more freakish about my data, and I love private relay. Like, I see private relay, like, securing me all the time now. And then, I guess I don't really use, like, browser extensions very much. Like, not, it's like, very not often that I see a browser extension that I'm interested in. And then, whenever I, like, I have Chrome installed on all my computers for when there is like a specific extension I need to use. But I have yet to find a single browser extension that I'm like...

• 57:52Speaker 03

  I'm so, this is so essential to my life that I'd be willing to use 60 gigabytes of RAM.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Do you use the Claude and Chrome extension?

• 58:00Speaker 03

  I do. That's the only time I open Chrome. So I'll be doing all my stuff in Safari and then I'll have a Chrome window open that Claude is controlling.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  If I can make an analogy, when I first got Andrew to use a tasks app and there were like 75 options and you were like, I'll just try Google Tasks first. And I was like, okay, that's, it's a good, like, it's the default one. There's no advanced features and no plugins or anything crazy like that, but it is, gets you in the door. That is Safari, I think.

• 58:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  As soon as you find like two or three features that are not available in tasks that you start to lean on, it's the same thing as finding two or three extensions in the browser or two or three UI features in the browser that you start to lean on and then you're like Safari is so far behind. It doesn't have, it has extensions, but like the amount of UI, fun and trickery and elegance and interesting things happening in, I mean, Arc is obviously the one we talk about a lot, but so many other browsers, they're just not in Safari.

• 58:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really, I really want to talk about tabs. I don't want to.

• 58:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Do you know what features are really stupid to lean on? Vertical tabs.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Okay, let's talk about vertical tabs.

• 58:59David Imel?

  You can literally lean on them because they're vertical, like a wall. You can't learn on something that's, you can't lean on the ground. It's horizontal.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  All right. Your monitor is widescreen. This is, this is the default, right? Your monitor is widescreen. When you have a bunch of tabs at the top, it's cramming them all into the top and you can't see anything. Put them over to the side. You can have as many tabs as you want. You'll never run out of room. You don't run out of vertical real estate because your tabs are only a slot. So just, horizontal tabs just makes sense for a vertical browsing experience on a widescreen monitor. Agreed?

• 59:30Speaker 03

  Agreed.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  All right.

• 59:31Andrew Manganelli?

  Agreed in that scenario, but.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:33Andrew Manganelli?

  In that scenario. Well, okay, there's more scenarios in this. One, do you guys use your Mac dock on the side?

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Uh, it's at the bottom.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  What's a Mac dock?

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Actually, on my desktop, it is on the side.

• 59:43Andrew Manganelli?

  It's on the side?

• 59:44Speaker 03

  No, it's on the side.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 59:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Why would, why not? If it's widescreen and it's vertical.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  I don't really use my dock.

• 59:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Why don't you hide it on the side?

• 59:54Speaker 01

  I see what you're doing.

• 59:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, it's the exact side.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 59:58Speaker 03

  Unfortunately, I think Marquez might win this one because I.

• 1:00:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, because he does use it. Adam uses it on the side also.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:00:03Speaker 03

  No, no, no. I used to use it on the side too, but the icons are square. And so it doesn't matter what direction, whereas writing is horizontal. So you could.

• 1:00:11Andrew Manganelli?

  No, no, but we're talking about width of screen real estate. And that a general webpage is vertical. This is something David Pearce says also. He says.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Precious vertical pixels.

• 1:00:19Andrew Manganelli?

  Virtually every modern computer display is widescreen. Most webpages are taller than they are wide. So if you're reading in a thing, you don't need the width of space.

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't agree with that. I think the, I think the idea is that like, if you have something that is larger in the vertical, in the horizontal dimension, then you'd want to stack it vertically because you lose less information per instance.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  I think it's even simpler. It's, I have more horizontal pixels, so I will waste more of them on tabs. I have less vertical pixels, so I want to scroll less by having less things wasting my vertical pixels.

• 1:00:48David Imel?

  Something you guys are disregarding is the magical ability to hide your tabs. Arc, this is my goaded Arc setup.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Hidden tabs.

• 1:00:57David Imel?

  Yeah, you swipe, you, you, okay, the active page, you swipe over and then your tabs come out.

• 1:01:03Andrew Manganelli?

  There's something so funny about you not doing that with your dock. What do you say? You don't use your dock?

• 1:01:07David Imel?

  Well, I don't really use my dock.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  You can hide.

• 1:01:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Exactly. You should hide your dock.

• 1:01:10David Imel?

  Yeah, I should. I never thought about that.

• 1:01:12Andrew Manganelli?

  You should definitely hide your dock.

• 1:01:15David Imel?

  But, okay, this is the goaded Arc setup. You have two windows. Arc does have a feature where you can have like two, it's one window, but you have two separate pages. But that's lame.

• 1:01:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I pause you right there really fast?

• 1:01:24David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:01:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Because that's what I wanted to say. Everyone's talking about width of screen real estate. I put two windows up, so now.

• 1:01:30David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:31Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I don't have that much screen real estate. Now, in two windows, if you're not doing his goaded Arc setup, if you have two windows with vertical tabs, now you're taking up so much space.

• 1:01:41David Imel?

  But there's.

• 1:01:42Andrew Manganelli?

  And you have this huge buffer in between.

• 1:01:44David Imel?

  They get hidden.

• 1:01:45Andrew Manganelli?

  You're very specific in there.

• 1:01:46David Imel?

  No, come on, most people hide the tabs in Arc.

• 1:01:49Andrew Manganelli?

  In Arc, but he's, this whole article is about Chrome.

• 1:01:51David Imel?

  Yeah, because Chrome sucks.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  I think by default.

• 1:01:56Andrew Manganelli?

  You don't hide your tabs, right?

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  No, I don't.

• 1:01:58Andrew Manganelli?

  So if you have two browser windows, sorry, I feel like I'm interrupting a lot here, but I don't want to miss specific things we're talking about.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:06Andrew Manganelli?

  If you have two browsers open side by side.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  They both share tabs.

• 1:02:10Andrew Manganelli?

  So now it's tabs, article, tabs, article.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be terrible.

• 1:02:14Andrew Manganelli?

  And it's all like, yeah, that's all.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  I do that sometimes.

• 1:02:16Andrew Manganelli?

  You do that?

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  On a widescreen monitor, it's still fine. There's enough horizontal pixels.

• 1:02:20David Imel?

  On your 32-inch monitor?

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Well, it's wide.

• 1:02:22David Imel?

  Okay, but what about your 14-inch MacBook?

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  There are people who use ultra wides. Anyone who uses an ultra wide cannot possibly justify not using horizontal tabs or vertical tabs.

• 1:02:30David Imel?

  For sure.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  You gotta use vertical tabs.

• 1:02:32David Imel?

  Yeah, they're not, yeah.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  But on a, on my, you know, the Pro display or whatever, it's still widescreen. I still got plenty of horizontal pixels to spare and every website is vertical.

• 1:02:39David Imel?

  What about this computer?

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  What about it?

• 1:02:41David Imel?

  14-inch MacBook Pro?

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got one window.

• 1:02:43David Imel?

  You have one window?

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:02:45Andrew Manganelli?

  What about?

• 1:02:46Speaker 03

  macOS and not Windows, idiot.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  One window, docs at the bottom. I could easily move the docs to the side. That's totally valid point, but yeah, I I see all my tabs.

• 1:02:55Andrew Manganelli?

  What about watching videos in a browser?

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  What about it?

• 1:02:59Andrew Manganelli?

  It's widescreen.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:03:00Andrew Manganelli?

  You're losing a bunch of real estate, especially in an MKBHD 2x1 video.

• 1:03:04David Imel?

  I watch videos on my phone all the time.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, sorry. I'm watching a video in my browser. It's a widescreen video.

• 1:03:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  And then.

• 1:03:12Andrew Manganelli?

  You just, vertical tabs is making it smaller.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  But you can maximize it. Oh, no, it's not. There's still extra horizontal. There's still white space to the left and right of every video.

• 1:03:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Really?

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Open up YouTube right now.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  You don't maximize?

• 1:03:23David Imel?

  So much left and right.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  You don't maximize it? If I maximize, it's fullscreen.

• 1:03:26David Imel?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, just fullscreen. It's whatever. But here's a.

• 1:03:28Andrew Manganelli?

  What do you mean?

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, black space, black space, left and right. There's.

• 1:03:32David Imel?

  What the heck?

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  There's just more blank space. The video is the same size.

• 1:03:35David Imel?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:03:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Can you do an MBHD video?

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's 2x1 though, if I switch to.

• 1:03:39David Imel?

  Well, which is why, yeah, which.

• 1:03:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, which is why it would be.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Oh, that's what you meant by 2x1. Okay, yeah. So this is a Bluey Phone review?

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  And so now there's, this is about, ooh, almost perfect.

• 1:03:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, man, that is really-

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  There's still extra horizontal space.

• 1:03:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, now get rid of it?

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Same size video.

• 1:03:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, you're right.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Same size video. I had my tabs. I got plenty of horizontal pixels to work with here.

• 1:03:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  It's all about the vertical space.

• 1:04:00Andrew Manganelli?

  If you want your rec- If you're outside of theater mode, it does-

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:04:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, that kind of screws my point up there.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, the video's the same size. So I, I'm a big, I, I agree with David Pearce, I think. Which, I'm gonna read his article, but I assume he's saying precious vertical pixels, you need those.

• 1:04:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Pressure ver- yeah. I did do a super, super scientific test.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:04:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is I took a screenshot of my browser with vertical pixel, or, sorry, horizontal tabs and vertical tabs.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Uh-huh.

• 1:04:28Andrew Manganelli?

  I brought it into Photoshop. I took total pixel size and took a percentage of space inside my browser window and how much it's taking up.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Okay, but, yeah, it's gonna take up more space. But you can spare that. That's like saying I have two bank accounts. One of them has way more money in it. And I'm spending a larger percentage of the smaller one, but the smaller one was just for extra stuff. That's a terrible analogy. But it's like I have a front yard and a back-

• 1:04:51Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm the fly.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  I got, I got one. I got a front yard and a backyard. The backyard is smaller. But it's the backyard. Like, I can do whatever. So if I have a front yard and I've been putting like, uh, I wanna put a sculpture in one of these yards.

• 1:05:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  I can put a way bigger sculpture in the backyard because it's my backyard. I can do whatever I want. I've got extra grass back there. The front yard is, is, is precious.

• 1:05:12Andrew Manganelli?

  To use for front yard stuff.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  I would, I'm bad at this.

• 1:05:14Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm saying I would put a sculpture in the front yard if I was getting a sculpture, cuz I-

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Help me out. What is a good nail? I have a drive wipe. I've got a two-car garage.

• 1:05:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Horizontal tabs.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  I got a two-car garage.

• 1:05:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Go with it, okay.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  And I have a, I have a-

• 1:05:27Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm trying to understand what you're saying.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  I have a Hummer. Okay, I have a two-car garage and I have one massive car, a Hummer.

• 1:05:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Hummer EB.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  If I wanted to build a gym in my garage, I would build it in the half garage that's not being used while I still park the Hummer in the big garage lot.

• 1:05:43Andrew Manganelli?

  And how does this relate to the tabs?

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Because that half garage is extra, right? So you're saying it takes a big, the gym takes a huge portion of that second garage spot, but who cares? It's the second garage spot. I wasn't using it for anything. Set.

• 1:05:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Track.

• 1:05:58David Imel?

  I see what you're saying. I've lost the analogy a while. I think the difference, what would need to happen is the Hummer would need to be able to expand to fill the space allotted, which is not how Hummers work.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  No, the gym expands. The gym is what's expanding.

• 1:06:12David Imel?

  The gym can expand.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  You're building a gym in the garage.

• 1:06:14David Imel?

  Oh, wait, C A C A C.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  You have a two-car garage.

• 1:06:16David Imel?

  So the Hummer is the tabs, is what you're saying?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Uh, the gym is the tabs. The gym is the tabs.

• 1:06:22David Imel?

  But the tabs don't expand to fill the whole screen, right?

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Uh, no, but they, I mean, they take up more. You're saying, so Andrew said.

• 1:06:30David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Andrew said that when I switch to vertical tabs, it's, it's turning into blank space way more.

• 1:06:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, it's overall taking up more space inside of the browser. The browser is for looking at webpages. It's taking away more space for the webpage.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  And my argument is, it's taking up way more space, but it's taking up a whole bunch of space that you weren't going to do anything with because every website is vertical.

• 1:06:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Not, yes. Majority of websites.

• 1:06:55David Imel?

  What if I want to see the banner?

• 1:06:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Some of those things, if I'm also on my, uh, computer, putting multiple windows next to each other, I'm losing horizontal space. So therefore now if there's a vertical tab list on every single one of those windows.

• 1:07:10David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:10Andrew Manganelli?

  It is destroying real estate of web browsers.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  You don't even need to have this argument if you just do what you're supposed to do, which is to do the hover thing where the tabs expand.

• 1:07:19Andrew Manganelli?

  In the browser, that's gonna be sunlit, or sunset within the next year.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  I don't care. Can you hide, can you hide, can you hide your tabs at the top?

• 1:07:30David Imel?

  Um.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  If you have top tabs?

• 1:07:32David Imel?

  Oh, I don't know.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Can you hide those?

• 1:07:33David Imel?

  I think you can turn off the like bookmarks bar or whatever, the tab. Oh, no, wait. Oh, no, that's bookmarks. It's just, okay, here's my take. Look at this. Look at it. Look at your screen. Look at your screen, Andrew.

• 1:07:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Perfect.

• 1:07:43David Imel?

  There's like, there's like 12% of your screen that's being used by useless [BLEEP].

• 1:07:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, you're in a different, you're basically in like a full screen mode.

• 1:07:53David Imel?

  Me?

• 1:07:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54David Imel?

  Yeah, cuz that's how you should use your computer.

• 1:07:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, I have.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  So many takes.

• 1:08:00Andrew Manganelli?

  I have a way to.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Wait, can I just say the percentages of what I calculated?

• 1:08:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Sure, yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Horizontal tabs took 3% of the total pixels used by my browser window. Vertical tabs took up 14% of the total pixels of the browser window.

• 1:08:14David Imel?

  Yeah, whatever.

• 1:08:15Andrew Manganelli?

  So my take is, I would argue that's functional space, though, because the way that I use my vertical tabs is folders, and they're dropdown. So when you click on one, it pops out underneath. So I could see everything.

• 1:08:26David Imel?

  Let's go.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  That's even better.

• 1:08:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Can't you do, you can do tabs or groups?

• 1:08:30David Imel?

  Waterfalling, cascading, that's how folders work on your computer.

• 1:08:34Speaker 03

  If you only have like three tabs open?

• 1:08:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  Is the entire sidebar just empty then?

• 1:08:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you weren't gonna use those pixels anyway. Cuz I got a blank space.

• 1:08:44David Imel?

  And that's why you gotta be mean, you gotta be maximalist with the amount of tabs that you have open.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, if I have 20 tabs, it fills up the whole list, but I'd never have that many tabs open. And this whole left area, which was not gonna be used either way, switch to vertical, switch to the top tabs, it's also still blank, cuz the website's in the middle of the screen. So those tabs are all white, no matter what you do. So you might as well have the superior.

• 1:09:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, yeah, it just takes up like eight times as much screen real estate.

• 1:09:08David Imel?

  Unless you hide them. You say screen real estate like it's precious, but it's blank pixels. Hide them.

• 1:09:14Andrew Manganelli?

  I do think it's.

• 1:09:15David Imel?

  This all gets solved if you hide them. Every website.

• 1:09:18Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't when you hide your dock right now.

• 1:09:19David Imel?

  I'll hide my dock right now.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Every website scrolls up and down.

• 1:09:22David Imel?

  I'll do it.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Everyone. Every single time. Scrolls vertical. Turn hiding on.

• 1:09:27Andrew Manganelli?

  I need to have a screenshot of my, uh.

• 1:09:29David Imel?

  Look at that shit, man.

• 1:09:30Andrew Manganelli?

  I just want to see your two web browser windows open with vertical tabs side by side next to each other, doing something.

• 1:09:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, you two have way more, you're like, widescreen people are stupid, but I have two.

• 1:09:43David Imel?

  I also have two monitors. No more dock for me.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:09:47David Imel?

  It's committing to it. I'm committing.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 1:09:49David Imel?

  I don't click on those things. I just, I just do command space.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Actually, yeah, wait. I'm gonna do that, too. I'm gonna hide my dock.

• 1:09:57David Imel?

  Is this something we can all agree on?

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Well, cuz I'm a Raycast guy.

• 1:09:59Andrew Manganelli?

  I was gonna say.

• 1:10:00Speaker 03

  I can't.

• 1:10:00Andrew Manganelli?

  The real end to this whole debate is, everyone has way too many tabs open and just do whatever you want.

• 1:10:05David Imel?

  Not man.

• 1:10:06Andrew Manganelli?

  But I thought it was fun.

• 1:10:07David Imel?

  Yeah, that's the whole reason I liked Arc in the first place, cuz I have way too many tabs open and it closes them for me.

• 1:10:11Speaker 03

  You don't want Arc, you want an AI browser owned by Atlassian.

• 1:10:18David Imel?

  Get me my Jira ASAP. Integrate with my KPIs.

• 1:10:23Andrew Manganelli?

  Also Firefox has had vertical tabs for a while.

• 1:10:27Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't use them, I'm just saying Firefox is super.

• 1:10:30Speaker 03

  It's interesting the meme of like the guy in the party who's like, no one here, no.

• 1:10:35Andrew Manganelli?

  I also.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Hiding the dark.

• 1:10:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Totally understand. I'm the last person you should be taking advice for.

• 1:10:40Speaker 03

  No, I'm the last. I'm Safari.

• 1:10:42Andrew Manganelli?

  My desktop is insane. It makes no sense. My, on my, the Pro Display XDR, I use that big screen real estate by just having a bunch of different sized aspect ratio windows where a corner of them's popping out all over. So that's how I can just click between all my different windows. And I also am running Android Studio, so, because I don't have Instagram on any of my devices, which means I can't share things to my story. So I now have a virtual Pixel 9 running on my desktop, just so I can add things to my story when the studio tags me in.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  I think what we're learning is all of us have very different habits on our desktops and we just kind of have to use what works for us, you know?

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  You didn't let me talk about the most goaded Safari feature of them all. The one that literally is causing Safari to lap all other browser offerings.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  Oh, God, okay.

• 1:11:30Speaker 03

  You guys ever checked out your reading list?

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Oh, no. I've only ever accidentally clicked that.

• 1:11:35David Imel?

  You know, there's like.

• 1:11:36Speaker 03

  Absolute flames.

• 1:11:36David Imel?

  There's like 8,000 extension, Chrome extensions that do that.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I use a, you can save things to your.

• 1:11:43Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't even know what it is.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Superior bookmark aggregation service with a simple plugin.

• 1:11:48David Imel?

  That is multi-platform.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Multi-platform. That syncs to all your devices.

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  See, but what, I don't know what background processes that's running. I don't know what servers it's connecting to.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Wait, okay, before we move on, I have.

• 1:12:00Speaker 03

  Reading list. I'm on my computer at work and I see an article that I'm interested in and I'm like.

• 1:12:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Chrome has that.

• 1:12:07Speaker 03

  I'm do, shut up.

• 1:12:10Speaker 03

  I'm talking here, okay buddy? And then I'm like, damn, I want to read that, but I'm doing work right now, you know? And then I get on the bus and I open my phone and I hit reading list.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  You can do that with Chrome too.

• 1:12:20Speaker 03

  I get a few, I don't care. You know, you know, you know how many hoops I have to go through? I have to [bleep] put my computer on a spit over like a fire and spin it while doing some like tribal dance.

• 1:12:32David Imel?

  You just put it in a fridge.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Look, Alice, I understand that you're like, you're like traumatized from the iPhone 12 mini battery life. So now you're only focused on battery life and I understand that.

• 1:12:40Speaker 03

  No, I'm not focused on, I'm focused on RAM. I'm focused on RAM and I'm focused on, I don't like my browser connecting to random servers. I didn't tell it to because I downloaded some random extension from somewhere in the world, okay?

• 1:12:52Speaker 04

  You get your viruses.

• 1:12:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, thank, thank you.

• 1:12:54David Imel?

  Come on, man. I want to make my virus soup. I have a quick question for you guys. What browser do you use on your phones?

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  That, actually, that's a good, I have several answers.

• 1:13:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Quick question.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  No, on my Android phone, I use Chrome. On my iPhone, I use Arc and Safari.

• 1:13:10David Imel?

  What?

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Unfortunately.

• 1:13:12David Imel?

  What do you use Safari for?

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  I default to Arc, but I have several tabs that I leave open in Safari that I always go back to.

• 1:13:19David Imel?

  Why don't you just have them on Arc?

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know.

• 1:13:24Andrew Manganelli?

  This, this conversation is going to end and all of our audience is going to be like, why do I listen to these people talk? These are the people I take advice from?

• 1:13:32David Imel?

  This is just revealing that a lot of us like started habits that we just didn't think about and now we're like.

• 1:13:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Why aren't we doing this?

• 1:13:38Speaker 03

  No, I've tried to switch, I've used, I didn't, I never tried Arc because I was so annoyed, but, but I've tried every other browser. I even tried the, the perplexity one, Comet.

• 1:13:47David Imel?

  Comet.

• 1:13:47Speaker 03

  You know, I, I haven't tried Opera GX either. Ask me what I use on my phone.

• 1:13:51Speaker 04

  What do you use on your phone?

• 1:13:52Speaker 03

  Safari.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  You must if you have the reading list.

• 1:13:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Please don't use Safari.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  You have the reading list on your phone, right?

• 1:13:59David Imel?

  Safari music?

• 1:14:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Is this Safari music?

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was supposed to be Safari music.

• 1:14:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Safari icon is the superior icon of everything.

• 1:14:06Speaker 03

  I, yeah, I've tried to use a bunch of the browsers.

• 1:14:08David Imel?

  Icons.

• 1:14:09Speaker 03

  Safari's fine, but the reason why I can't go all in on it is because it's not multi-platform.

• 1:14:13David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Speaker 03

  Like, that's basically it. Like, at home, I use a Linux computer. I can't download Safari on a Linux computer, like, that's it.

• 1:14:20David Imel?

  Can't download on your Android phone.

• 1:14:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I can't download on my Android phone and I switch back and forth all the time.

• 1:14:24David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  I've been weaning off of, of Arc slowly. I'm, I should be leaving Arc on my phone.

• 1:14:28David Imel?

  Why?

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  Because the lack of updates, I just know it's not going to perform well in like a year. It's going to be a slow crawling mess.

• 1:14:35David Imel?

  It's been dead for a while and I still use it.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  But do you ever check on other browsers and go, oh, Arc is a slow crawling mess?

• 1:14:42David Imel?

  I check on other browsers, but like, what do you mean by slow crawling?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Like, it takes like 30 years to open?

• 1:14:47David Imel?

  No, it doesn't take 30 years to open.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Try opening another browser. See how fast it opens.

• 1:14:53David Imel?

  My god.

• 1:14:54Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, no, I think David hit the nail on the head. It's habit, and all of us are in weird habits, and a browser is one of those habitual things you're in so much that any change feels really weird.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  Does Arc still sync? I don't know.

• 1:15:06David Imel?

  Ah, ye- yes, yes, yes.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  It does?

• 1:15:08David Imel?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Maybe I'll switch back and hate myself a little more.

• 1:15:11Speaker 04

  It's a good thing none of these browsers have any critical vulnerabilities.

• 1:15:14David Imel?

  Yeah, that's a great segue.

• 1:15:16Andrew Manganelli?

  I think they all do.

• 1:15:18David Imel?

  They actually all do. They-

• 1:15:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Actually, everything does.

• 1:15:21David Imel?

  Actually, everything does. Okay. Very, very big story dropped-

• 1:15:25Speaker 04

  I don't love this episode. This podcast has a critical vulnerability.

• 1:15:30David Imel?

  Insane story dropped yesterday, Tuesday, April 7th.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  ChatGPT is in your car now.

• 1:15:36David Imel?

  You know? It was gonna happen eventually. Anthropic announced-

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Also that.

• 1:15:41David Imel?

  A large project called Project Glasswing, which is a joint cybersecurity effort to patch various vulnerabilities across different OSs, across various software. The reason this is a big deal is because I think last week, or possibly the week before, we talked about how Anthropic had accidentally leaked a bunch of stuff that it had been working on for a very long period of time. One of those leaks, probably the biggest of those leaks, was a new model called Mythos that they've been working on, which is the biggest model they've ever trained. It has trillions of parameters. It is this giant kind of behemoth.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  It's a good name.

• 1:16:16David Imel?

  Yes, very good name. They trained it specifically to be good at coding. Something that they found out after they trained it was not only was it good at coding, but a side effect of being good at coding was that it was extremely good at cybersecurity and finding bugs and things like that. They, you know, were messing around with it. They were like trying to do some cyber sex stuff with it. They found thousands of high severity security vulnerabilities, including some in every major operating system and web browser.

• 1:16:46David Imel?

  And it can chain together various different security vulnerabilities to come up with more powerful outcomes. So for an example, in Linux, they found various different vulnerabilities that allowed you to have access to, admin access to any Linux computer by chaining together a bunch of these different bugs that is in the Linux kernel.

• 1:17:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Combo.

• 1:17:08David Imel?

  Combo.

• 1:17:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Get combo.

• 1:17:09Speaker 04

  The scary thing too is that it did it autonomously.

• 1:17:11David Imel?

  Autonomously.

• 1:17:12Speaker 04

  Like just by itself.

• 1:17:13David Imel?

  Allegedly.

• 1:17:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Allegedly.

• 1:17:15David Imel?

  All of this is alleged, by the way, because they did not, they're not releasing this to the public.

• 1:17:18Speaker 03

  Dave and I were talking about how in the Mythos release paper stuff, like there were a few things.

• 1:17:23David Imel?

  System card, yeah.

• 1:17:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, there were a few things they described as unprompted, which were like

• 1:17:28David Imel?

  Basically prompted.

• 1:17:29Speaker 03

  Definitely prompted. So it's like, you gotta take all this a little bit of a grain of salt, but.

• 1:17:34David Imel?

  The system card, which is kind of like this, it's like 200 and something pages of like what happened during their testing process of this new model. There are various things that were kind of interesting that happened, but that they definitely kind of hyped up a little bit to catch more headlines. Like, for example, they put Mythos in the sandbox environment and they instructed it to break out of the sandbox environment. And it did. And, you know, in the little, there's this little like, what's, what's it called when you put a little ticker above it that says like 10? And then lower down, it's like, this is what 10 means. What's that called?

• 1:18:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, uh, annotations.

• 1:18:08David Imel?

  Yeah, annotation. They put in annotation and they were like, it, you know, autonomously broke out of here.

• 1:18:14Speaker 03

  You're talking about footnotes?

• 1:18:15David Imel?

  A footnote. Yeah, sorry footnote. Not an annotation.

• 1:18:17Speaker 03

  That was the most abstract way I've ever heard anything.

• 1:18:20David Imel?

  Thinking about it in my head.

• 1:18:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:22David Imel?

  So in that one, they had said like, the security researcher only realized that had broken out of the sandbox when he received an unprompted email from the model telling it had broken out of the sandbox. And I was like, well, okay, that is kind of crazy. But at the same time, like you said, it said, when he received an email while he was in the park eating a sandwich, which is like, why did you say that? And then the other part was like

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  It was not just prompted to break out, it was prompted to

• 1:18:45David Imel?

  To let them know, yeah. So it's like, you know, it's

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  They would have supposed to.

• 1:18:50David Imel?

  Yeah, it's crazy that it's able to do that. Like, it was able to run JavaScript and figure out a way to, like, break out of the sandbox by running specific JavaScript things, which, like, no one's supposed to be able to do. But regardless, um, anyway, so because this model they found to be so powerful, they formed this alliance called Project Glasswing, which is this multi-company security effort where they're giving Mythos to a number of different companies because they have found major security vulnerabilities in every major OS and most of the platforms, like, and apps in the world. So, anyway, they're also giving access to 40 different organizations to use Mythos previews to be able to preview to be able to secure their environments

• 1:19:35David Imel?

  before this kind of cybersecurity AI agent is unleashed on the world because uh, I think if there's one thing we know, it's that if you make software and you say, "We're not going to make this available to the public," it will eventually become available to the public, either uh, because you decide to eventually release it, or because someone else hacks you, or because your OpenAI or Google eventually develops an agent that's just as powerful and can do the same things. So what they're trying to do now is they're basically trying to, like, secure major software before agents come out that can find vulnerabilities in all of this software.

• 1:20:13David Imel?

  Yeah, there was also a bug in OpenBSD that has been present for 27 years that nobody knew about, that is able to crash any machine. So, yeah, pretty big, pretty big vulnerabilities there.

• 1:20:26Speaker 03

  There was also one in FFmpeg, which is like the

• 1:20:29David Imel?

  Video encoder decoder that every single thing uses.

• 1:20:32Speaker 03

  Exactly, it's just, yeah, it's, exactly.

• 1:20:34David Imel?

  Sorry.

• 1:20:35Speaker 03

  You explained it so much better than I was gonna be able to. But yeah, it's code that's present in most software that is able to encode and decode videos. Because why would you write it yourself when you can just pull it off the shelf? So yeah, essentially, most software, it turns out, had zero day vulnerabilities. That it took a robot to figure out.

• 1:20:54David Imel?

  Yeah, so I think that the kind of scary thing about stuff like this is that part of the AI race is that there are companies that will say, well, if Anthropic's not going to release this, we're going to develop a model that's just as powerful and we're going to release it because we want to gain market share. That's what people are freaked out about. And so that's why Anthropic is trying to like, secure this stuff ahead of time. In my opinion, I don't think they should have even put out the blog post before they did a lot more work on this. But it's possible they felt-

• 1:21:23Speaker 04

  That's where my alarm bells go off.

• 1:21:24David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:25Speaker 04

  Why would you even tell anyone about this?

• 1:21:27Andrew Manganelli?

  Because it got leaked.

• 1:21:28David Imel?

  That's what I was gonna, yeah, I think the main reason why they ended up like, talking about it was because it got leaked.

• 1:21:33Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, they leaked the whole source code. Exactly who I want in charge of cybersecurity.

• 1:21:38Speaker 03

  They, right, I know, they leaked, they leaked Opus source code.

• 1:21:42David Imel?

  Yeah, it wasn't-

• 1:21:43Speaker 03

  And in, and in Opus, they found references to this thing called Mythos. So everyone was like, what the hell is Anthropic Mythos? It could have just been like, nothing, don't worry about it.

• 1:21:51David Imel?

  Yeah, they also had little characters that you could dance around and you could have on your computer, which is arguably more important.

• 1:21:57Speaker 03

  The disclaimer that David and I, when we were talking about this, David and I carpool to work on Wednesdays together, so we talk about all the pod stuff. But the thing that David and I really wanted to talk about is just that like, it's, as much as this seems legit and seems freakadicky, you know, they have a financial interest in lying. So maybe they're lying, maybe they're not, I don't know.

• 1:22:19David Imel?

  Yeah, I don't know, I mean, they got, you know, 12 large corporations and 40 organizations and they, they have all these quotes and they have people in the video talking about how important it was. One of the best security researchers in the world said that while he's been using Mythos, he's found more bugs than in his entire career.

• 1:22:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, definitely, it definitely seems pretty legit, but I just also know, like-

• 1:22:38David Imel?

  You should take all this with the-

• 1:22:39Speaker 03

  I've been listening to Sam Altman saying he's one second away from curing cancer for the past two and a half years and so, you know, I'll take it all with a grain of salt.

• 1:22:47Speaker 04

  Don't worry, he bought a podcast, we're all good.

• 1:22:49Speaker 03

  Oh my god, dude.

• 1:22:51David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:52Speaker 03

  Speaking of- Safety.

• 1:22:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Speaking of safety.

• 1:22:56David Imel?

  That's good, that's good.

• 1:22:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Good job.

• 1:22:57David Imel?

  Nicely done.

• 1:22:58Andrew Manganelli?

  I saw this article, this release today, and I just thought it was a cool little article. SCOTA, the car company, is designing a bell for your bike for the sole purpose of being able to penetrate active noise cancelling. So the car company released a new bell and they are talking in their video about the release of it in London, a city with 1.5 million bike commuters per day, a city where 54% of all headphones sold have in active noise cancelling and has also seen a 24% rise in cyclist pedestrian collisions. They decided that they needed to work on this new bell because while there are obviously so many variables between pedestrians,

• 1:23:38Andrew Manganelli?

  cyclists, automobiles and everything, they believe that the mix of smartphone usage and active noise cancelling is being detrimental to situational awareness and recognizing alert sounds. So what they decided they had to do was find a way to make bells on your bike noticeable by somebody wearing noise cancelling headphones. What also this came, so there's this big study, we'll link it in the show notes, Ellis could potentially make me, help me explain this better. But they essentially tested the top six most popular headphones with active noise cancelling to try and find a frequency that, Ellis, is this the easiest way of describing it? Active noise cancelling essentially looks at the frequencies that are coming in and then re-

• 1:24:23David Imel?

  Plays the reverse.

• 1:24:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Plays the reverse version of it to cancel out the noise. So they found that 750 hertz was a frequency that for whatever reason ANC just wasn't really able to handle in terms of blocking out.

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  They found a bunch of things. They found, okay, so they found, they found a few different things. It's, the first is that how cluttered the noise environment that you're in affects what frequencies the ANC is better at cancelling out versus others. So when there's a lot of noise going on, certain frequencies are better. When there's not a lot of noise, other frequencies penetrate better. Another thing they found- Was that tonal frequencies, like frequencies that have a clear like bass and then harmonic stack on top of them work better than sounds that are a little bit more random and chaotic and like what we would call noisy. There's a, there's a bunch of interesting, but yeah, largely that, that's the big thing is that in a lot, like there are certain situations

• 1:25:19Speaker 03

  where 750 hertz works really well. And then there are certain situations where I think it was like 1K or 2K or something like that worked, swish, works really well.

• 1:25:28Andrew Manganelli?

  So I thought what it was is that the 750 hertz was the frequency that ANC basically was not able to counteract. And so that could pierce noise cancelling headphones.

• 1:25:39David Imel?

  Isn't it like a super, like a bass?

• 1:25:41Andrew Manganelli?

  It is. So, so the reason this is, this is called the SCOTA Duo bell is because the 750 hertz can break noise cancellation, but that is a very low noise for people who are not wearing noise cancelling headphones. So that bell just by itself at 750 hertz probably won't actually alert somebody in an environment that's not wearing the headphones. So that's why the bell has two different frequencies on it. One is over 2000 hertz because that is still a general like bike bell alert sound that people are used to. So people who aren't wearing headphones, it would be crazy to do this whole thing to help people with headphones and then make it worse and not alerting people who aren't wearing the headphones.

• 1:26:25David Imel?

  I'm just trying to imagine the sound of a bike chime, but in a much lower pitch.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  I don't know if I would, I guess it would be interesting to hear, like if I'm listening to music and it has bass in it, that's going to sound like a more bass.

• 1:26:36Andrew Manganelli?

  I would assume it's something different you're not used to. You're wondering what that sound is.

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:26:42Andrew Manganelli?

  They, the way they tested it is through this kind of complicated way. They like did virtual reality where one person was walking.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  That's 750? That sounds higher than I thought.

• 1:26:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay. But like if, well, I guess it's one thing, the whole, the bell's all mechanical. It's not digital. Two thousand's pretty high. I was listening to these before to try and see what they sounded like. But you also have to think of it, it has to be in a bell that goes bing, bing, bing, bing. Yeah. The way they did it is they tested it by a person in virtual reality was wearing noise cancelling headphones and was in the, in the virtual reality, supposed to be doing something on their phone to be paying attention to it. It's hard to imagine these as the bike tone that would be on a, but that's much louder.

• 1:27:31Andrew Manganelli?

  And so in their testing, they saw, found that people wearing ANC headphones heard the bell 22 meters earlier or five seconds sooner than an average person. It's huge. Biking, which is, yeah, huge. So yeah, it's something they're testing in London. They're planning on expanding it. I want it because when we are trying to do water runs in the studio and everyone's wearing headphones, I want to try and alert everybody. Yeah. So we should just put it at the front door so we can just ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring. And everybody can then know we're going to do a water run.

• 1:27:59David Imel?

  Why were there in VR when they were testing this again?

• 1:28:03Speaker 03

  So they get that funding money. Because they weren't, they, they weren't just.

• 1:28:07Andrew Manganelli?

  The original testing.

• 1:28:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. So they weren't, they weren't just being like, how well do you hear this? They were simulating distractions, both in the foreground, background and periphery.

• 1:28:16David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:28:17Speaker 03

  And so they were trying to figure like, not just how well can you hear something, but how well does the like ear response actually reach your brain?

• 1:28:23David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:28:24Speaker 03

  Cause when you're riding a bike, you're focused on.

• 1:28:26David Imel?

  Uh huh.

• 1:28:27Speaker 03

  Stuff. Well, I guess not right when you're, when you're in the world.

• 1:28:30Andrew Manganelli?

  They're saying people with headphones are generally also a lot of times looking at their phone and just completely unaware of what's going on.

• 1:28:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:36Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:38Andrew Manganelli?

  One thing in here though, is with all the testing, they did create a graph of the AirPods Max, Bose Choir Comfort, Sony WX1000s, AirPods Pro, JBL Live Pro and Samsung Galaxy Buds. And they have a graph of how well the mean attenuation is and AirPods Max just kind of blow everything out of the water.

• 1:28:55Speaker 03

  I was a little confused by this because they don't, they don't say which.

• 1:28:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:59Speaker 03

  Generation of these they use. That's sort of frustrating. Like they don't say which Sony's, they don't. Don't say which AirPod Pros.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Which AirPods Max?

• 1:29:08Speaker 03

  Oh, no, there is.

• 1:29:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Now, there's a new one, but I think this happened before that. That came out like last week.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, just, but yeah, none of them have a number.

• 1:29:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:15Andrew Manganelli?

  True.

• 1:29:16Speaker 03

  Apple's gotta be very.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  The new Galaxy Buds are way better than the old ones.

• 1:29:20Speaker 03

  At noise cancelling specifically. Yeah, yeah. Apple's gotta be very annoyed at this chart because they, um, they said AirPod Pro and AirPod Max. And as we know, Apple's very specific.

• 1:29:32Andrew Manganelli?

  There's a lot about the Sony WX1000s that they just get, even they were like, this name sucks. The whole thing in it.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  Samsung Galaxy Bud.

• 1:29:41Andrew Manganelli?

  And just JBL Live Pro all lowercase.

• 1:29:43Speaker 04

  A part of it might also be because they're trying to like not make it about the individual headphones. Like that's not the point. The point is just headphones in general.

• 1:29:50Andrew Manganelli?

  But the point of.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  They do, they list the. They do break it down.

• 1:29:56Speaker 03

  Guys, what's my least favorite thing in the world?

• 1:29:59Andrew Manganelli?

  The noise of a bee's asshole.

• 1:30:00Speaker 03

  It's frequency response charts. It's frequency response charts because there's so much information about noise cancelling that this graph does not show. So I'm also not mad that, because you would not be able to, as much as I want to be like, Ellis is **** right, AirPods Max or the goat. But it's like, um, for example, like the speed of the drivers, like how fast those drivers can move in and out will affect how much of sudden sounds are able to be cancelled. The excursion of the drivers, how far spatially they can move from their resting point is going to affect like how much like really low booms are able to be cancelled. You know, there's a lot of other features that you can't just be like X frequency is cancelled Y amount.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:42Speaker 03

  If anyone ever sends me a frequency response chart, block my number. Bro, what do you mean?

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  It's kind of like an MTF.

• 1:30:49Speaker 03

  I said what I said.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  It's kind of like an MTF chart for lenses.

• 1:30:52Speaker 03

  It's like when people are like the sound stage of headphones. I'm like, miss me. Straight, straight up miss me.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:31:01Speaker 04

  I have many thoughts, but we have to get going.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Adam, you should try.

• 1:31:04Speaker 04

  I just want to try. I want, I want the bell and I want you to see what it sounds like.

• 1:31:09Speaker 03

  I mean, we all, Andrew, you and I, we always want the bell, baby.

• 1:31:11Speaker 04

  But, you know.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  What does that mean?

• 1:31:14Speaker 03

  Taco Bell.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  Oh, got it, got it, got it, got it. Yeah, same.

• 1:31:17Speaker 03

  But no, we should. I would be interested in obtaining this.

• 1:31:19Speaker 04

  I don't know how we will because it's only in London right now. Skoda, if you're listening.

• 1:31:23Speaker 03

  I, I would fly to London.

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  Anyway, Adam, do you want to transition it to us and to your rant?

• 1:31:30Speaker 04

  Um, speaking of things that I'm angry about.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:31:34Speaker 04

  There it is.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  You're angry at bells?

• 1:31:35Speaker 04

  Um, no, not, not really. More so.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  More speaking about it?

• 1:31:40Speaker 04

  No, I'm mad at Ellis's frequency response.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I got, okay.

• 1:31:43Speaker 04

  But also about Pixel 10A coming out in Japan in blue. Okay, I have a few questions here.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:31:51Speaker 04

  So if you don't know, the Pixel 10A got a Japan exclusive variant that is like a nice blue color. It has its own cool icons and wallpapers and all this stuff.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:01Speaker 04

  It's neat, fine. I'm confused because isn't this just the Pixel 10 color? Like, the blue looks exactly the same.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Oh, that's where, that's where you get triggered, the design people.

• 1:32:11Speaker 04

  Okay, I know.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  Such a specific blue.

• 1:32:13Speaker 04

  It is a very specific blue and it has a special name and everything, but I'm looking at it. And again, we don't have the actual device, so I'm looking at it on the screen.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:32:20Speaker 04

  And I'm looking at the Pixel 10 that we have here in the office.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:32:23Speaker 04

  And I'm just like, it's the same picture.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:26Speaker 03

  They're the same picture.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  I don't know what it is about these companies that they sort of over, maybe they overdo like how much they think we care about the exact color. You know what Motorola does? They do like a, they have a partnership with Pantone. And they'll do a special edition phone that is in the Pantone color of the year. As if I've ever met anyone who even knows what that is. Like, we do have designers here.

• 1:32:49Speaker 03

  You don't remember Cosmic Latte?

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  No. I know that there are people who care about the Pantone color of the year and those people are a very specific person who, you know, pays attention to colors and new things like that and that's very exciting to them. But does Motorola think that there is like a huge audience that's like, oh, man, I can't wait for this Pantone color of the year to be a phone? I guess they do think that because we get that every year. And so here comes Google and they're like, we've got this very specific blue. And no, no, no, it's not the same as a Pixel 10 blue. It's a certain, what are they calling it? Isai blue? Am I saying that right?

• 1:33:19Speaker 04

  I, Isu, Isai?

• 1:33:20David Imel?

  I think it's named after the designer.

• 1:33:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, it seems like this is less about the color and more about the collaboration.

• 1:33:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, which that's my next point. That's a really cool collaboration. That dude is like a great artist. Why do we get wicked and SpongeBob themes here in the States while Japan gets this?

• 1:33:37David Imel?

  I think you know the answer to that question. Because people here know about this and people there know about that.

• 1:33:42Speaker 04

  How many, how many times do we reference this guy and how many times do we reference SpongeBob? That's fair. That's fair. Also, a little annoyed just generally about pixel availability just because it just came to Mexico like this past year. There's multiple countries where not all the features are available. It's like pixel stuff is just all over the place and it's very confusing. But more so, the, the main reason why this caught my attention was because when I saw the article and I clicked the link to watch the video, the video popped up in four by three. And it's from Google Japan YouTube channel with a four by three video. And I was like, what?

• 1:34:18David Imel?

  Google Japan is so stylish.

• 1:34:20Speaker 04

  The arts. Yeah.

• 1:34:21David Imel?

  If you go to Google Japan's YouTube channel, everything they do is so awesome.

• 1:34:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, but every other, well, not every other video. The few other ones that I clicked on are just regular like 16 by nine. This one was four by three. And I think it has to do with like the artsiness of it, but I just found it so interesting because Google is like the most corporate, corporate company.

• 1:34:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  And

• 1:34:40David Imel?

  They're not as corporate as like Microsoft, though.

• 1:34:42Speaker 04

  I would disagree.

• 1:34:43David Imel?

  Really?

• 1:34:43Speaker 04

  I think they're very corporate in different ways.

• 1:34:45David Imel?

  I guess.

• 1:34:46Speaker 04

  But I think they still have this like idea of whimsy from back in the day, but they are super corporate. And the fact that I clicked on a video and it was four by three, I was like, whoa.

• 1:34:54David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:56Speaker 04

  That was my rant.

• 1:34:57Speaker 03

  I have to, I have a correction. Cosmic Latte was not a Pantone.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Don't worry, there's already, there's already seven comments.

• 1:35:05Speaker 03

  I'm so sorry, Cosmic Latte was, remember like a 10 years ago, they were like, this is the average color of the universe.

• 1:35:11David Imel?

  Whoa.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Cosmic Latte?

• 1:35:13Speaker 03

  How do you guys not remember this? This is like the most marquee, it's space and color.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  That's, I, if you can rail against frequency response stars, I'm railing against average color of the universe. That is the most useless thing I've ever, what? The average of the universe?

• 1:35:27David Imel?

  That sounds like something you'd be, you'd be interested in.

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I-

• 1:35:29Speaker 03

  But we can only see like-

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  The average of the universe is zero, it's black, it's nothing.

• 1:35:34David Imel?

  Black, yeah.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Most of the universe-

• 1:35:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, is that a color? Is that a lot of-

• 1:35:36Speaker 03

  Not according to Johns Hopkins University, bro.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  Alright, alright. I mean, there's obviously the core of a neutron star, which is the brightest thing ever.

• 1:35:43David Imel?

  The average color of the universe is infrared.

• 1:35:45Speaker 03

  No, it's Cosmic Latte!

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  It's in, is it in the visible light range, is what you're saying? Is the average of the universe-

• 1:35:51David Imel?

  Oh, you mean if you compressed it into the visible light range?

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  That seems insane, I guess.

• 1:35:55Speaker 03

  You know, Marques, I would read about, I don't understand this stuff.

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  For those wondering, how's the Pantone color of the year?

• 1:36:05David Imel?

  It's freaking-

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  2026.

• 1:36:06David Imel?

  Tan, bro. It sucks. It's lame.

• 1:36:09Speaker 01

  No, it's blue.

• 1:36:10David Imel?

  No, it's not.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Cloud dancer.

• 1:36:12David Imel?

  This year?

• 1:36:12Speaker 03

  That's lit.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  114201.

• 1:36:15David Imel?

  What? What happened to cream?

• 1:36:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, all of a sudden, I'm a big fan of Pantone. That's awesome.

• 1:36:19David Imel?

  No.

• 1:36:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Adam, I looked up the only other Google Japan video I could ever think of, which is their 2022 April Fools joke, which was they just made a keyboard where all of the letters are one really long stick. And funny enough, it, it starts in four by three, and then when they announce the board and start swiping down, it expands to widescreen to put more of the keyboard.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  Damn, that's so cool. Yeah, that was an April Fools Day thing.

• 1:36:44Speaker 03

  Before we move on, I, do you guys know about Klein Blue?

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  What is Klein Blue?

• 1:36:48Speaker 03

  There's an artist named Yves Klein who made this painting with this- Uh, paint, blue paint that they mix themselves and um, then they trademarked it. And now they have their own blue. And when you say it, it's like, that's stupid. Like, you can't use this color blue unless you pay this guy Eve Klein. But then you look at the blue and you're like, damn.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude.

• 1:37:08Speaker 03

  That's a good blue.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  This is also a bonus episode. If you, if you click on the Pantone color of the year, it's like, please, no more. Here's a paywall. Sign up for 15,000 colors.

• 1:37:17Speaker 04

  Like, I, what?

• 1:37:19David Imel?

  Dude, Cloud Dancer, which is the color of the year this year, it's just like, it's beige. It's literally beige. There's a really awesome article.

• 1:37:27Speaker 04

  Very specific.

• 1:37:28David Imel?

  I don't care. It's beige.

• 1:37:29Speaker 04

  So many colors.

• 1:37:30David Imel?

  There's a, there's an awesome article, I think by Mia Sato on The Verge, where she went to like, the Pantone color of the year party.

• 1:37:37Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  See, this is, that's the.

• 1:37:40Speaker 04

  That sounds lit.

• 1:37:41Speaker 01

  Think of the person who would go.

• 1:37:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:37:43Andrew Manganelli?

  I'd go to that.

• 1:37:44David Imel?

  I would normally go to that if it was anything but beige.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  You would normally go to the Pantone color of the year?

• 1:37:50David Imel?

  Of course. Would you not?

• 1:37:52Andrew Manganelli?

  That sounds pretty sweet.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  That's a.

• 1:37:53Speaker 04

  That sounds better than every South by Southwest party I've ever heard of.

• 1:37:56Speaker 03

  I think Pantone gets a bad rep because they're one of those companies that, you know.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Is evil.

• 1:38:01Speaker 03

  Well, that's the thing is like.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Paywalling colors.

• 1:38:03Speaker 03

  I get the idea, like, yeah, you're paywalling colors, but also like, thank God they exist, dude. Because like, especially like, right now, for example, right?

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  This should be a bonus episode.

• 1:38:14Speaker 03

  I'm trying to, I, I got a suit jacket for a great price on eBay and I'm trying to find matching pants. And I cannot find pants that are the exact same color. Like, this color matching has just been, and the whole point of Pantone is.

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  Is color match.

• 1:38:26Speaker 03

  Standardized. So if you see something on the internet, you can just read, that's color 89627.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:31Speaker 03

  You open up your book that you paid $10 million for.

• 1:38:34Andrew Manganelli?

  And can't leave in the sun.

• 1:38:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, can't leave in the sun. And then you find 89267, and then you go, okay, now I'm certain.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  And it standardizes it across different materials, different finishes, and this whole thing. We, we accidentally know way too much about this and maybe should actually be a bonus episode. But I am also fine with trolling Tim and people who are listening to this by saying they're paywalling colors.

• 1:38:54Speaker 04

  This month's bonus episode is a Q and A. Link in the description to ask your questions. Please give us questions, because we don't have any.

• 1:39:02Andrew Manganelli?

  You think people are still listening?

• 1:39:03Speaker 04

  I know. If you're still listening, then we want your questions, because you are in this with us. So, please.

• 1:39:09Speaker 03

  We have a beautiful domain. You can go.

• 1:39:11Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:11Speaker 03

  To waveformsurvey.com.

• 1:39:14Andrew Manganelli?

  We're not reusing that at all. Not at all.

• 1:39:17Speaker 03

  We've never used that before.

• 1:39:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Look, we paid for it. It's it's worth.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  So to be clear.

• 1:39:21Andrew Manganelli?

  You gotta utilize it.

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  We are going to be doing a bonus episode soon. If you are still listening this far in the podcast, you are the type of person we want to answer the questions from.

• 1:39:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Exactly.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  Go to waveformsurvey.com, ask us questions on an upcoming bonus episode. We will answer those questions.

• 1:39:34Speaker 03

  But you know what else has questions and answers?

• 1:39:37Andrew Manganelli?

  What is that else?

• 1:39:38Speaker 03

  You already know. Oh, I left the fader down.

• 1:39:43Speaker 04

  Trivia.

• 1:39:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Trivia.

• 1:39:44Speaker 04

  Trivia, dude. So we just spoke about Anthropic discovering all these vulnerabilities in Linux specifically. It's just one of the examples they used. But Linus Torvalds, when he initially made Linux, debated naming it something else. Was it? A, Freex, a combination of free, freak, and the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix system? B, Winix, changing the U in Unix to to we? C, Tiger, which was the mascot at the University of Helsinki where he was at at the time? Or D, Torvis, a combination of his last name and his first name?

• 1:40:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Can you reread the first one?

• 1:40:21Speaker 03

  Yo, your Winix is showing.

• 1:40:24Speaker 04

  Freex, F R E A X.

• 1:40:27Andrew Manganelli?

  No, but you said, what was the reason? It's a mix of free and freaks.

• 1:40:30Speaker 04

  Freak and the letter X to indicate that it was a Unix-like system.

• 1:40:35Andrew Manganelli?

  I like that it's a combination of free and freak when it's just freak.

• 1:40:40Speaker 01

  Hey, it's a.

• 1:40:41Andrew Manganelli?

  Tough one.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  What is that?

• 1:40:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Or is it F R E E K?

• 1:40:44Speaker 04

  F R E A X.

• 1:40:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  Free freak.

• 1:40:48Andrew Manganelli?

  It's a nested acronym, bro. It's fine.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:40:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Um, I like that we have multiple choice trivia.

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:40:55Andrew Manganelli?

  It narrows my odds to 25%.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  Slightly above zero.

• 1:40:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I say?

• 1:41:00Andrew Manganelli?

  When I was looking up Artemis stuff, the number of how the furthest distance they were away from the Earth? And I kept being like, read it four times because I assumed that was going to be a trivia question. I'm really upset. This is the first time I was.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:41:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Doing research and I was like, that's going to be a trivia question. You have to remember.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  It was a 252,000.

• 1:41:15Andrew Manganelli?

  252, and I think it was like 750 or something.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  That would have been a good trivia.

• 1:41:20Speaker 04

  Well, this is

• 1:41:20David Imel?

  At least now we know.

• 1:41:21Speaker 04

  Now that we're mentioning multiple choice, the reason why I wanted specifically to do multiple choices this week is because YouTube has a feature where you, dear listener on YouTube, can play along and guess what the trivia answers are.

• 1:41:35David Imel?

  What?

• 1:41:36Speaker 04

  If it doesn't work, then it, ignore all of this.

• 1:41:39David Imel?

  Is it new?

• 1:41:40Speaker 04

  Uh, as of like a month ago, and I've been meaning to bring it up for me and Ellis, but Ellis today just happened to pick a multiple choice question. I was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna pick one too, so we could test this out.

• 1:41:49David Imel?

  So they can do this, but they still can't make it actual timestamp?

• 1:41:52Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:41:53David Imel?

  UI?

• 1:41:53Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:41:54David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:41:54Speaker 03

  The reason I knew is, remember that headache you woke up with a few days ago?

• 1:41:58David Imel?

  He wishes he doesn't.

• 1:41:59Speaker 03

  No, I neural linked us, bro. We broke into your house, me and Elon, we broke into your house, we neural linked you.

• 1:42:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, well Glasswing found a couple of vulnerabilities in that.

• 1:42:08Speaker 03

  I neural linked me too. Sorry, that's what I left that. So we're, we're, we're linked neurally.

• 1:42:13David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:42:13Andrew Manganelli?

  252756. That was four miles.

• 1:42:16David Imel?

  Is that the Pantone color?

• 1:42:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 1:42:17Speaker 03

  We'll be right back. We're right, we're, we're leaving.

• 1:42:19Andrew Manganelli?

  It's beige.

• 1:42:20Speaker 03

  But we'll be back.

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

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• 1:43:13Speaker 01

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• 1:43:18Speaker 07

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• 1:44:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Welcome back. Whoop update from my rant last week, which first of all, I want to say if you enjoy Whoop and you were mad at me for saying that, I'm sorry. Enjoy your Whoop band. I'm way more mad at Whoop, the company and their pricing and how insufferable their CEO is. But after I ranted about that, a bunch of fun stuff came out about Whoop, which really people were amped that I ranted about it despite I didn't know what was going on. But Whoop is in the process of suing a company called Bevel, who is very similar to an app like Athletic that you use. Essentially, an app that can take, you know, fitness and activity data

• 1:44:58Andrew Manganelli?

  from whatever activity tracker you're using and conclude it into different types of sleep data and strain data and recovery, whatever, all those different things that every single other thing uses. But Whoop just tells you that they're better at it. But some of the reasons for why they're suing them is just very funny. Do you remember the Fine Bros?

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Fine Brothers, when they tried to

• 1:45:23Andrew Manganelli?

  They tried to trademark Reacts.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because they, long story, but they

• 1:45:29David Imel?

  Wanted to own the concept.

• 1:45:30Andrew Manganelli?

  They basically wanted to own the word react.

• 1:45:32David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Just remember that in some of the, what I'll say here. So Bevel released a video going over a couple of the things of when Whoop sent them a cease and desist. And now this most recent lawsuits. Wow, total brain. We are very far into this episode and it is showing. So in their first cease and desist, they asked Bevel to disable dark mode and change the name of strain and recovery as the names of metrics in their app. Because I guess those are things that only Whoop can do.

• 1:46:02David Imel?

  Strain and recovery.

• 1:46:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Strain and recovery. So the funny thing about this is Whoop only has one color background, which is dark, a dark gray.

• 1:46:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Bevel has light mode and dark mode, like every single other app that's ever been made. But and and light mode is their default. But I guess Whoop doesn't like their dark mode because it looks too similar to Whoop's. And they also don't like the names strain and recovery because I guess those are metrics that Whoop wants to own.

• 1:46:32David Imel?

  Those are things that they've named.

• 1:46:36David Imel?

  The compilation of those metrics might be totally different in Bevel's app, but they probably feel like they want, like the word, like everyone I know who has a Whoop is like, what's your recovery score? This is my recovery score. How's your recovery? That's all they talk about is the recovery. So I could imagine an upstart trying to steal users from Whoop, also using the word recovery very intentionally.

• 1:46:56Andrew Manganelli?

  It's one of those things, though, when you start focusing too much on a word that has been around forever.

• 1:47:00David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:01Andrew Manganelli?

  It's just a pretty common word that fits in there.

• 1:47:03David Imel?

  If you bring your computer into recovery, are they going to sue you?

• 1:47:06Speaker 03

  Let's quick caveat, though, and this is not me defending this, but it's a trademark and not a copyright, which means part of the nature of a trademark, if they're, if they're attempting to trademark this, they're trademarking its use in a specific method.

• 1:47:19David Imel?

  Context.

• 1:47:19Speaker 03

  For example.

• 1:47:20David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:21Speaker 03

  Here's a great example. I could release.

• 1:47:25David Imel?

  Body battery.

• 1:47:26Speaker 03

  No, no. Well, I'm gonna take it another industry. I could release a line of protein supplements that I call Ellis's 1989 Super Protein. But I cannot sing a song in which I say the line, "I would like to party like it's 1989." Because Taylor Swift has the number 1989 trademarked for musical purposes.

• 1:47:45David Imel?

  She does?

• 1:47:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:47:46David Imel?

  You can do that?

• 1:47:47Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:47:48David Imel?

  I don't like that.

• 1:47:49Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:47:53David Imel?

  Wow. That's lame.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, this is, everyone's gonna hate, like, Whoop suing them because obviously punching down looks terrible. But at the same time, there's gonna be a lot of companies, and I have no idea what Bevel's doing. I should probably be more informed on it, but, you know, there are gonna be companies that are gonna try to specifically steal users from Whoop, probably by mimicking a lot of their features.

• 1:48:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Here's a couple of their claims that I'll read out loud. They claim that their home screen looks too much like theirs, that both apps use rings to represent user strain and recovery scores near the top. Those rings are colorful circular bars that increase clockwise, and there's a coaching feature in a rectangular, in a rectangle using rounded edges and a dark gray background. So rings with colorful, I mean, like every health metric ever. Fitbit uses it, Apple uses it, Garmin uses it, all rings with colors, because colors and strain, green and red are pretty common. Green, yellow, red is how most of that happens. A rectangle using rounded edges is a hilarious way of saying a button. Every button ever that's been made.

• 1:48:54Andrew Manganelli?

  They said that Bevel's app updated the home screen and it's obviously confusing and substantially similar to the Whoop app home screen. The only problem, so the way the home screen looks, it has three circles, the three different scores on the top when you go into it. Bevel originally had it separated into three rings and Whoop for a long time was actually only one ring. And then updated their app after Bevel already had that and now has the three rings. To the point where when they updated it, there was people commenting on it saying like, "Looks like you're copying Bevel." Whoa. But now they're suing them, saying it looks too much the same. There's a section that says, "Both apps use a crescent moon icon to demote sleep."

• 1:49:34David Imel?

  Denote, you mean?

• 1:49:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Denote, yeah, sorry. But to indicate sleep, I think a moon and sleep is pretty synonymous with each other.

• 1:49:43David Imel?

  Maybe some Z's.

• 1:49:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, and I think my biggest thing here is, which is, I'm sure in the trademark lawyer world, totally fine, but kind of stupid, I think, is saying the design's similar and could potentially confuse people into Whoop's UI, but Whoop is a thing that only exists when you are using the product. Nobody is getting confused if you don't have a Whoop band and go into the Bevel app. Like, it literally has to. Yeah. No one's like, buying a Whoop, like, you know, using it and doing the setup and then accidentally in Bevel and being like, oh, [BLEEP].

• 1:50:20David Imel?

  Also, is that really a problem? Like, they're not stealing users. Like, the copyright thing is usually like, are you replacing this or are you supplementing it? If you are replacing revenue that's coming to that company, then it's a problem. If you're not, and it's just supplemental, it's usually not as much of a problem.

• 1:50:37Speaker 04

  Well, they're a competitor, so, yeah.

• 1:50:39David Imel?

  Yeah, well, does Bevel have like a band or anything? Or does it just take your existing fitness?

• 1:50:44Andrew Manganelli?

  As far as I know, it's only an app and it takes existing.

• 1:50:46Speaker 04

  Can it take the metrics from Whoop?

• 1:50:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Probably, but I don't know that for sure. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Whoop doesn't let that.

• 1:50:54David Imel?

  I was gonna say Whoop probably has that [BLEEP] locked down.

• 1:50:56Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know how Athletic and Bevel work, I just know that they can be used with different, you know, trackers, whether it's a ring, whether it's a watch, whether it's whatever.

• 1:51:05David Imel?

  But maybe not Whoop.

• 1:51:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Anything, but possibly not.

• 1:51:07David Imel?

  Possibly not Whoop, I'm not sure.

• 1:51:09Andrew Manganelli?

  So, yeah, I don't know, this really just feels a lot like the fine bros trying to trademark.

• 1:51:14David Imel?

  Well, we know how that ended.

• 1:51:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, didn't it end great? This is, I mean, this is great for Bevel because they were all over Twitter and probably got way, I've never heard of them before, and probably more people know about Bevel now.

• 1:51:25David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:25Andrew Manganelli?

  I hope it doesn't go too deep, but I think trademarking recovery and strains seems like an absolutely insane thing and a really lame thing to do.

• 1:51:34David Imel?

  So lame.

• 1:51:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Which feels pretty on point for Whoop.

• 1:51:36Speaker 03

  Quick clarification, while Taylor Swift does have the number 1989 trademarked, the specific trademark violation is she also has the phrase "party" like it's 1989.

• 1:51:46David Imel?

  Oh.

• 1:51:47Speaker 03

  She does have the phrase, the number 1989 trademarked, as well as I found out in making sure I was correct on that, she has the phrase "this sick beat" trademarked.

• 1:51:56David Imel?

  No.

• 1:51:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:51:57Speaker 04

  That's because it's the best part of the song.

• 1:51:58David Imel?

  Is that the way she says it? Because she says it's "spedis sick beat."

• 1:52:03Speaker 03

  I

• 1:52:04Andrew Manganelli?

  I think

• 1:52:04Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:52:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Trademarks are so

• 1:52:06Speaker 03

  Trademarks are really stupid, but I

• 1:52:08Andrew Manganelli?

  So dumb.

• 1:52:09Speaker 03

  I do.

• 1:52:10David Imel?

  You have to be able to defend something.

• 1:52:12Speaker 03

  Well, and it's it's they're different than like they're different than copyrights because it's your right to do business as a thing, essentially. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I think it's

• 1:52:22David Imel?

  I also just want to say Taylor Swift was born on December 13th, 1989, and to imply that she was partying at that age is just bull. She was at the most, she was thriving.

• 1:52:33Andrew Manganelli?

  You can't prove that.

• 1:52:36David Imel?

  That's a party to some people.

• 1:52:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Wasn't even sentient.

• 1:52:39David Imel?

  She was not even sentient yet, bro.

• 1:52:40Speaker 03

  Also.

• 1:52:41David Imel?

  She was training her AI model in the early stages.

• 1:52:43Speaker 03

  On a list of recent trademarks, she had recently gotten female rage colon the musical, which I don't even know what that's about.

• 1:52:50David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:51Speaker 03

  But comment down below if you do know what that's about.

• 1:52:55David Imel?

  I don't know.

• 1:52:55Speaker 03

  But you know what I do know lots about?

• 1:52:57David Imel?

  What is that? The answers to the trivia questions that you wrote?

• 1:53:00Speaker 03

  With the fader up this time.

• 1:53:02David Imel?

  Nice. I like that. I like that.

• 1:53:04Speaker 03

  Waveform, episode 345, trivia question number one. That was me pretending to be Jason.

• 1:53:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Derulo?

• 1:53:12Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:53:12Andrew Manganelli?

  That's a sick username, Jace dot JSON Derulo.

• 1:53:16David Imel?

  I think someone already has.

• 1:53:17Andrew Manganelli?

  That has to be a real thing, right?

• 1:53:18David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:19Speaker 03

  That's pretty good.

• 1:53:20David Imel?

  We get sued.

• 1:53:23Speaker 03

  Guys, where does Anthropic's project Glasswing get its name? A, an experimental F1 rear wing design from the ground effect era. B, a Central American butterfly with transparent wings. C, a type of parachute used by first responders to jump into dense forest canopies. Or D, it's an acronym. General layer analysis. Excuse me, general layer analysis screening with integrated neural GPTs.

• 1:53:57Andrew Manganelli?

  The whole time you were saying Glasswing, I just kept thinking of DuckTales for some reason. That's all I could think of. Don't know why. Is there a Darkwing? Darkwing Duck? That's what I was thinking of.

• 1:54:09David Imel?

  Wow, what a reference.

• 1:54:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Wow, we all said the same thing.

• 1:54:12Speaker 04

  What'd you guys say?

• 1:54:14David Imel?

  Butterfly. All three of us said butterfly.

• 1:54:16Andrew Manganelli?

  David drew a tooth for some reason.

• 1:54:20Speaker 03

  That means I'm getting worse.

• 1:54:21David Imel?

  You're trying to be an artist. Cause you're all correct. On the blog post, they have a picture of a butterfly. I didn't go to it during the podcast, but I was reading it.

• 1:54:32Speaker 03

  But am I losing my sauce?

• 1:54:34David Imel?

  No, thank God, Ellis.

• 1:54:35Speaker 03

  Am I? I used to deliver four bangers.

• 1:54:39David Imel?

  Yeah, but we never get.

• 1:54:40Speaker 04

  We're still bangers.

• 1:54:41David Imel?

  We never get points.

• 1:54:42Speaker 03

  On Anthropic. On Anthro- well, all three of you got points, so it's as if none of you got points.

• 1:54:47David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:47Speaker 03

  So I still failed.

• 1:54:49David Imel?

  That's true.

• 1:54:50Speaker 03

  It's called Glasswing from the Butterfly because, also, none of those other three things are real. I made them all up.

• 1:54:56David Imel?

  Yeah, I figured.

• 1:54:58Speaker 03

  The metaphor can be, this is from Anthropic's actual website in a, in a, what, one up here? And what does the one mean down there?

• 1:55:07Speaker 03

  A footnote. The metaphor can be applied in two ways. The butterfly's transparent wings let it hide in plain sight, much like the vulnerabilities discussed in this post. Semi-colon. They also allow it to evade harm, like the transparency we're advocating for in our approach.

• 1:55:24David Imel?

  Transparency, wow, wow.

• 1:55:26Andrew Manganelli?

  They backroom their way into that or what?

• 1:55:28David Imel?

  Bored. They probably asked Claude. Somebody got a raise for coming up with that line. Claude got a raise. What should we name this Claude?

• 1:55:37Speaker 04

  All right, quick update on the score after that correct question.

• 1:55:41David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:42Speaker 04

  Marquez with 21. Andrew with 22. David in the lead with 25.

• 1:55:48Andrew Manganelli?

  22.

• 1:55:49David Imel?

  But I'm not around.

• 1:55:50Speaker 04

  Hey, that's trademark, that's trademark. Trademark, you're getting a trademark.

• 1:55:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Careful, careful.

• 1:55:56Speaker 04

  All right. When he initially made Linux, Linus Torvalds debated naming it something else. Was it? A, Freaks? B, Winix? C?

• 1:56:10Speaker 04

  Tiger? Or D, Torvus?

• 1:56:13Speaker 03

  You know what's crazy? He, there's one thing that Adam left off there, which he was also considering, which was Linus Tech Tips.

• 1:56:24Speaker 04

  He was way early.

• 1:56:30Speaker 04

  Flip him and read. What do we got?

• 1:56:31Andrew Manganelli?

  Wow.

• 1:56:33Speaker 04

  You guys are locked in today.

• 1:56:34David Imel?

  Yeah, we're locked in.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  We are neural linked.

• 1:56:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  All of us said D. Torvalds.

• 1:56:40Speaker 04

  Nope.

• 1:56:40David Imel?

  Was it B?

• 1:56:41Speaker 04

  It was not B.

• 1:56:42David Imel?

  Oh, good.

• 1:56:43Speaker 04

  It was also not C.

• 1:56:44David Imel?

  No way.

• 1:56:44Speaker 04

  It was A. Freaks.

• 1:56:46David Imel?

  No way.

• 1:56:46Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:56:48David Imel?

  Well, I'm glad he didn't do that.

• 1:56:50Andrew Manganelli?

  F R E A X?

• 1:56:52Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  That is simply a bad acronym.

• 1:56:55Speaker 03

  Is that a reference to phone freaking, or is that just like, you're a freak?

• 1:56:59Andrew Manganelli?

  What's phone freaking?

• 1:57:00Speaker 03

  Really fast, 30 second definition. Phone, old analog, like landline phone dialers actually worked by tones. Like you have a thing, like each button creates a tone and then that tone, you know, does a program on the other side of the thing. So someone realized you could hack into phones by generating tones and that was called.

• 1:57:15Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh.

• 1:57:16David Imel?

  Yeah, but freak, phone freaking was P H R E A K I N G. Yeah.

• 1:57:21Speaker 03

  Okay, so this was not that.

• 1:57:22Andrew Manganelli?

  It was the cool version.

• 1:57:23David Imel?

  Yeah. It was Taylor's version.

• 1:57:25Speaker 03

  No, that's also.

• 1:57:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, no.

• 1:57:27David Imel?

  Careful, David, careful.

• 1:57:28Speaker 03

  Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit.

• 1:57:32Speaker 01

  And with that, the podcast was finally over. Again, if you have questions for us, the comment section is always open. But if you made it this far, you can of course go to waveform survey.com and ask us whatever you want because we're going to do a bonus episode where we actually answer those questions. So take your time, come up with the best questions you possibly can. Leave your whatever questions down below, but come up with the best questions for waveform survey.com. And they'll be answered on a bonus episode. Other than that, thanks for watching. Hopefully the astronauts touch down safely in the ocean.

• 1:58:03Speaker 03

  Wait, that's waveform with vowels, not without vowels. That's wave, W A V E F O R M.

• 1:58:08Speaker 01

  Good clarification. Hopefully now they've found it. I don't know, whatever freaky website you went to before, but now they found the correct survey website. All right. Catch you next week. Peace.

• 1:58:18Speaker 04

  Waveform was produced by Adam Alina and Ellis River and partner of Vox Media Podcast Network and intro music was created by Vansil.

• 1:58:23David Imel?

  You did that early, Adam.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Speed run.

• 1:58:33David Imel?

  Are you looking at the little glass?

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  No, I'm looking at Cosmic Latte, which is the average. It is, see, it is, you have to read this very carefully. It describes the average color of the galaxy of the universe as perceived by a typical human observer, which to me says that the average is not actually in the visible wavelength typically.

• 1:58:51Speaker 07

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