OpenAI's Financials Revealed, Tesla Robotaxi Debut, Shein's Weird CEO

Ranjan Roy from Margins is back for our weekly discussion of the latest tech news. Cory Weinberg from The Information joins us for the first half! We cover 1) OpenAI's financials leak 2) OpenAI plans to make most of its revenue via ChatGPT 3) OpenAI's staggering losses 4) Can OpenAI be a sustainable business? 5) Training costs vs. inference costs 6) You don't exclude training costs from profitability statements! 7) Tesla's Robotaxi event 8) Self-driving's importance 8) Ranjan gets the Snap spectacles 9) Shein's CEO oddities 10) Is Shein state run? 11) TikTok's impact on kids. --- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. For weekly updates on the show, sign up for the pod newsletter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/6901970121829801984/ Want a discount for Big Technology on Substack? Here’s 40% off for the first year: https://tinyurl.com/bigtechnology Questions? Feedback? Write to: [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  Let's take a look at OpenAI's newly revealed financials and discuss its massive projected losses. Tesla is also out with its Robo Taxi, Robo Van and Optimus Robot. And we have some questions about Shein's IPO. That's coming up right after this. This episode is brought to you by Genesis. What does it actually take to put a Gentic AI to work across an entire enterprise? I recently spoke with Genesis Chairman and CEO Tony Bates about why orchestration is emerging as a competitive advantage in customer experience and what companies need to get right in the AI era. Then I sat down with Adam Mitchell, Head of Enterprise Business Solutions at Voya Financial,

• 0:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  to go inside a large scale agentic CX transformation, including the business decisions, trade offs, and lessons along the way. You can watch both conversations now on my YouTube channel today. It's never been more challenging to get Frontier Compute. How do you know where to look, who to trust, or how much to pay? Akash is an open cloud that provides easy access, flexibility, and peace of mind. That's how companies like Razer were able to cut their inference cost by 15 times. Visit akash.network/alex for a free consultation. That's akash.network/alex for a free consultation. Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition, where we break down the news in

• 1:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  our traditional cool-headed and nuanced format. We have a great show for you today because we're going to go deep into OpenAI's financials now that the information has opened the books. They've gotten some exclusive details about the company's revenue projections, its costs, and its losses, and where it expects to go over the next few years. We'll also talk about the Tesla Robo Taxi event coming up in the second half. And then also Ranjan has some questions about the Shein IPO and its CEO. But we are lucky to be joined here for the first half by Cory Weinberg, the information reporter that broke the OpenAI news. Corey, great to see you. Welcome to the show.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Great to be here, Alex.

• 2:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  And also Ranjan Roy is here as always on Friday. Ranjan, good to see you.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  We got some numbers, Alex. I am excited for today.

• 2:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Finally. Nothing really excites the Big Technology Friday crowd like a bunch of financial projections.

• 2:19Speaker 02

  Line item expenses and compute amortization and expense allocation and stock compensation. We got it all today.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  It sounds like, yeah, that'd be a good wrap.

• 2:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's right. Yes, let's get it into Suno and next show we'll make sure to turn it into our second theme song. But you know, we might joke about it and it does sound quite nerdy, but it actually is this amazing Snapchat into not only OpenAI, but like what we can expect from the broader generative AI moment here, because this story that you broke, Corey, actually has some internal information from OpenAI and it goes to show us some like pretty jaw dropping projections that the company is making. I mean, specifically around the losses, which we've been talking about at length here on the show recently, but then also in terms of where it expects its revenue to go. So for me, the top line was that they're expecting their losses to get as high as 14 billion in 2026. Remember, the company just

• 3:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  raised 6.6 billion and around. So its losses could be that high. But we also took a look at the places where it expects the revenue to come from. One of the things that astonished me was that ChatGPT is what OpenAI expects to lead its revenue, which it expects to increase 100 fold by 2029. And the bulk of that revenue is going to be coming from ChatGPT, according to OpenAI's projections, which flies completely in the face of everything we've been discussing on this podcast and everything we've expected, which is that the API and the other companies using this GPT technology was going to be the driver of OpenAI's revenue. But it does look like the company is expecting ChatGPT to be the

• 3:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  bulk of that revenue. I mean, it already is, but but throughout the upcoming history. What do you make of that, Corey?

• 4:03Speaker 01

  It surprised me too on the top line. I mean, I think first of all, you need to to view these projections and these numbers like you view a lot of startup projections, which is this is in many ways, the best case scenario, especially on on the top line.

• 4:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  I'm assuming this is what they sold investors on, which means that that big round sort of predicated on investors believing this story.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think, look, when you you have growth so far, that puts them, you know, sort of in Google and Facebook territory in terms of revenue growth, you know, early in their history, you know, they're they're gonna lean into it and be aggressive and say, yeah, by the end of the decade, we're gonna generate as much revenue as Nvidia or Tesla. Like, they they definitely went big with it. And then, yeah, when you dig into that, it's like, okay, maybe you can view those revenue figures skeptically, and I think we all should. But I also think, you know, let's let's actually take some other forecast at face value. And I do think the actual breakdown of that revenue was pretty revealing and interesting.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  I mean, you you have a company that says their main product right now in ChatGPT, which is both the consumer subscription product. Also, there's, you know, an enterprise product for ChatGPT. I don't quite know how that breaks down between the two of them in that in that revenue bucket. But yeah, they're saying this is gonna be the moneymaker for, or at least the revenue driver for for years to come. And it seems like the API revenue is is, you know, maybe they're kind of giving away, giving it away more than, or actually like charging the full value of it. And it's also more easily commoditized. So, yeah, I did think that was pretty interesting.

• 5:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  Manja, what did you think when you took a look at this projection and saw that basically the company is expecting to be, really, it's a chatbot company? I mean, that's what it is. If the majority of its revenue is coming from ChatGPT, it's gonna be a chatbot company. And not just a chatbot company, but a paid chatbot company. I mean.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no, that that one jumped out at me, and Corey just kind of hit at the most important point, that the API revenue could be commoditized. Because actually, I mean, I have been arguing for a long time that that's actually where the money is gonna be. It's in the enterprise, it's in the API access side of things. And maybe, they they laid out the case, they're arguing it's going to be on the actual consumer-facing side, which was interesting to me, because even though I've so strongly believed the other way, maybe it is in the user interface, the UI, the UX side, that they launch great products that everyday people will use. And that's where they're gonna win. Do I think it's correct or right?

• 6:43Speaker 02

  I don't know. But it's an interesting way to raise six point six billion dollars.

• 6:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Is there a limit to? The way that this generative AI phenomenon can continue to grow if the leader, which is OpenAI, ends up not really making a lot of money on the API. Like at some point, it's like, why are you developing these foundational models? If it's, I guess, maybe it's just to make the chat pop better. What do we think about this? Corey?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Well, I think if you just think about it, if I, as a user of these products, as someone who is also trying to cover, you know, these companies that are growing quite big as a reporter, it's hard for me to keep up with sort of how each of these foundation model companies are actually moving ahead of each other in different aspects of how they actually can, can do math, do science, do, you know, sort of legal stuff. Like, like, it seems like between Mistral versus OpenAI versus Anthropic, like, you know, it's getting somewhat, these foundation models are, you know,

• 7:54Speaker 01

  in very tight competition with, with each other. And the value, I think, OpenAI is saying is in the consumer and enterprise brand, the, the, not sort of what you're developing for other application developers, but a, they're kind of casting themselves, I think, as like an essential service that they can, you know, provide a lot of value to consumers on and can drive up subscription prices. And that's like an easier story to tell in a fundraising. So maybe that's why they're leaning into it. And, you know, no one's going to necessarily hold them to account to it. If, if it turns out any differently.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  But yeah, I, I, I think it's an acknowledgement that they think the API business is, is, is more of a commodity.

• 8:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right, which is amazing because that is effectively a tacit acknowledgement by OpenAI, admitting that it's not going to be able to stay ahead of its competition and building the state of the art models.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that it's possible. There's also, there's other products they say they're going to develop that are quite big. We don't know what that'll look like, but obviously, you know, we know there's a lot that's not out in the world that they've teased like Sora and, you know, kind of a perplexity type of competitor too.

• 9:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yes, the old future, quite big potential product. We know always comes through.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is interesting, though. I was just thinking about like a company like Google, create the killer consumer facing product and then build off of that, build an advertising business off of that, build Google Cloud and Google Workspace and all these other more enterprise focused efforts. Maybe that is the way they're pitching this because I think like versus some boring enterprise API type of company that just, you know, is people are trying to build on and where the cost of those actions go less and less and less, build it being the true consumer facing brand that introduces the whole world to generative AI. I know I've been incredibly bearish on OpenAI and suddenly I sound like I'm pitching them for a fundraising, but.

• 9:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  This deck really works for you, man. You're like, take my money, Sarah Frye.

• 10:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  Ron John looks at one slide, all of a sudden he's knocking at the door.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, show me a Masayoshi Son deck and I'm first in line.

• 10:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  But that's, okay, so that's just looking at the revenue and then things get really interesting because Corey, and you published this, this is again coming from OpenAI's internal projections and financials. It's a, I think this is my favorite chart I've ever looked at from a tech company. This is their revenue versus their costs. And it is one of those things where like, oh, you look at total revenue and I'm like, oh, that's pretty nice, $4 billion. And then it starts getting into the costs. So immediately, and this, this goes right to our question about, we've talked about in the past couple of weeks, so prime AI crisis and can AI, these AI companies sustain themselves? And you look at these costs and you go, hmm. So Microsoft's revenue share right off the top of that $4 billion is $700 million.

• 10:55Alex Kantrowitz?

  So it looks like what they're making something like 20% of all OpenAI revenue. The compute to train the models then takes another. Three billion dollars off. So, you know, thinking about profitability with those two alone, you're just barely profitable. So then you get into compute to run the models and that's another two billion. Now you're in the red and then it just adds research, compute amortization, which is Ron John's favorite outline item, down a billion, employee salaries down 700 million, general and administrative 600 million, data 500 million, hosting 400 million, sales and marketing 300 million. And you go from this very nice looking four billion in revenue

• 11:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  after you add in all these costs to a five billion dollar loss. And that excludes stock based compensation, by the way, which is going to be another major cost. I mean, Corey, when you first came across this chart, what was your reaction?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  At first, a bit of confusion and mostly trying to understand. I mean, look, I think that this is like a new type of business. And so how they run their numbers, how they do their accounting is going to be an interesting thing to watch, right? Like, I remember I like I interviewed some startup one time, like maybe four or five years ago about like why they hadn't hit their revenue projections or why their numbers were slightly off or whatever. And he was like, well, look, we're not running Alcoa here where where, you know, some like giant, you know, old company where like, we know how the business runs. It's run the same way for a long time, blah, blah,

• 12:34Speaker 01

  blah. So I think just first, like, understanding how OpenAI is sort of thinking about its business and where the costs are coming from. That, you know, in itself is really interesting. It also is not surprising. I think like Sam Altman has said himself, like, OpenAI is going to be one of the most capital intensive companies in history. I think he said the most capital intensive startup in history. So like, if we take him at his word, which, as we know, maybe you shouldn't always do that. I do think in this case, like, he's probably telling the truth. This he is not, you know, saying that, you know, this company is not going to cost a ton of money to build. And that is, you know, by far the biggest cost is is compute. It's the it's the data centers.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  It's actually being able to mostly train these models. The smaller cost of the compute bucket is to actually run them, which is called inference. And that is, they're saying they're lowering those costs. But training is sort of, it's a huge, huge expense.

• 13:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, not much lower, two billion to run versus three billion to train. So, but yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're good, but that's going to expand over time, essentially, the the training costs.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think the idea of these are completely new businesses. There are two numbers that jumped out, which I think were that I had not seen anywhere else before. And I thought were really interesting. First, sales and marketing at three hundred million out of four billion in revenue. That's around seven percent. A traditional SaaS company is spending forty to fifty percent on sales and marketing. And we have talked about this a lot that in people, if you've ever used them, they don't really have enterprise customer success. They don't have the old school SaaS sales guy out there. And maybe they'll create that all with agentic AI. But at least in the near term, if they're really trying to move in that direction, the spend is so low on the marketing side.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  It's amazing to me that they think, unless they're going to really understand how to scale that. Then the other was gross margin, which you'd reported forty one percent, where typically software is, I mean, seventy percent is the the baseline. So the the actual like, you know, profit for revenue or margin relative to your revenue is so much lower because of all the actual foundation model building costs. And how that actually scales, I mean, how they even, I'm, I am curious what these discussions are like with investors. Like, do they actually present genuine plans around? What these graphs look like over the next three years, or it's just kind of, we'll figure it out?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I think they they do. I mean, if you, you know, at the risk of insulting, you know, very well

• 15:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Just do it, Corey.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  I'm where you're going, Corey. Come on, go.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Like, look, I mean, I wrote about this, like, so, but like, you look at the big checks that made up this round. You know, it's a lot of people that had reasons beyond just like a clear financial rationale for investing in OpenAI. You know, you you had Thrive Capital and SoftBank writing really big checks, like Thrive is already very much. They are in the Sam Altman business. They are in the OpenAI business. They are deep in it. They they very much have hinged their reputation, I think, on a relationship with Sam and with with OpenAI.

• 16:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  And OpenAI is gonna open an office in one of Kushner's New York buildings.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  The Puck Building, yeah, yeah.

• 16:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's just like, is any part

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Count the ways Josh Kushner has made money off of OpenAI. It's

• 16:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  Is any part of this industry not round tripping? You have Microsoft investing in OpenAI and OpenAI using Microsoft Azure Credits. You have Kushner investing in OpenAI and OpenAI opening an office in his building. It's wild, but

• 16:25Speaker 01

  No, totally.

• 16:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  But more to the point, Ranjan, I'm curious, when you when you saw the numbers, did you, you know, we've been talking again about like, is this business sustainable? Now we've looked at the numbers. What do you think? Do you have answers to the question?

• 16:40Speaker 02

  So this is a tough one because again, as I seem to be like the ultimate OpenAI fanboy five minutes ago. It's I actually got less of a clear picture of where this company is going, bearish or bullish after reading this. And the reason is, the thing that made me most excited is to one day read the S1 filing of this company for the IPO. Because it's so weird and complex. I guess that's the only, the only consistency from the last few months is everything gets weirder. Even Microsoft, it was reported, I think, the cut of revenue was 20%, which was higher than previously thought.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  There's still there, you had some information in there around, they've been able to expense last year $500 million of cloud compute, I think it was.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  First half of this year, yeah.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Oh, so first half of this year already. So Microsoft's relationship with OpenAI is bananas. Like, I cannot think of another company, certainly at this scale, but even smaller, where I've seen something that contorted. And then even just the way, from the accounting side, and it's fair, this is a completely new type of technology. And I actually, what you're saying, Corey, I do kind of agree with that, that the idea that no one knows, there's no standard accounting practice for how to amortize the value of a large language model, because it's so different. In the past, you build software, you have like essentially zero marginal cost, it can go forever. That's, this is a much more

• 18:13Speaker 02

  cost intensive, like marginal cost intensive way of doing technology. So, so basically, no one, it became more clear to me, no one has any idea how to actually do the accounting for this, to do the financial projections for this. And, and we're all in the same open business, basically.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  And even, and I think you're right to put your finger on the, you know, the Microsoft OpenAI relationship being really key to all of this, not just in assessing, it does muddy the waters on its financial statements. I'll, I'll tell you, like, I, you look at their, you look at sort of the actual cash leaving OpenAI, and it's a lot lower than you would think compared to their income statement losses, because so much of the expense is tied up in Microsoft compute credits, which is not technically a cash item. So that muddies the waters a little bit. I don't know how long they'll be able to sustain that sort of pace. And then my colleagues-

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Sorry, we have no idea, was it ever finalized, what of the initial $10 billion was cloud compute?

• 19:25Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's ever been fully reported. I think it's, it's, it is the majority of it, is my understanding. Whether that means it's seven or eight billion, or I think it's in that range, is my understanding. But my colleagues had a great story also earlier in the week, basically saying that Sarah Fryer, OpenAI CFO, has told employees that, look, we're going to spend some of the six and a half billion dollars, you know, racing also to, to develop data centers with other potential sort of companies. And-

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Essentially, like they're in a race to kind of get compute and to get data center space. And Microsoft as one company isn't necessarily able to get a lock on all of it. So that relationship is, I wouldn't necessarily, it is slowly, they are very much joined at the hip, but both are trying to figure out how do we not become too dependent on each other.

• 20:22Alex Kantrowitz?

  I think we should put this all together because we're now, we're getting some projections in terms of what they're expecting to spend, right? They're expecting to spend nine point five billion potentially on training alone, training alone, right, for up from three this year in 2026. That's just in two years. And Corey, you report that their loss excluding stock comp could be 14 billion in 2026. That's a time where they're expecting, again, ChatGPT to be the lead in terms of their, in terms of their revenue. So let's just take our head out of the spreadsheet for a second and like, think about this logically.

• 21:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, is there a chance they could potentially recoup all that money from ChatGPT subscriptions? Like, how much better would ChatGPT have to get? Because I don't think it's an awareness thing at this point. Like Ranjan mentioned, it's, they are getting as much word of mouth as they could potentially get. And they still are where they are in terms of ChatGPT adoption. So how much better does ChatGPT need to get to start to justify those costs? I would say like, it would basically have to be AGI.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  I, I agree that, it's interesting that I was just thinking about like, is it the consumer or the enterprise side that gets commoditized? And you can make a case for or against both. And on the consumer side, that idea of like, how much better does it have to be? I would say, I mean, even out of people I know, most people aren't paying 20 bucks. I think I'm sure we all are to some, one of the services. But like for the everyday average user.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Is this something you even need to pay for or want to pay for, given the current state of how these things work? I don't think so. So I think like it would have to completely transform or revolutionize, I don't know, like entire new products and entire new problems being solved for everyday people versus it can just write you some stuff or it'll help you with code that only hit a certain segment. Or I I'm trying to even picture what that product would be that every single person would be ready to pay 20 bucks a month or more.

• 22:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, Corey, is this feasible?

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's gonna have to be also just way deeper in the enterprise. I think like just having a consumer product is, you know,

• 22:47Speaker 01

  it's gonna have to be, you know, pretty, pretty insane. It's gonna have to be very agentic, you know, where it's doing things for you to use their jargon. But I think if it's able to revolutionize like, you know, actual, you know, there's money, there's, there's, there's a lot of money in the enterprise, I would say. Like if it can actually like improve, you know, sort of companies efficiencies and bottom lines there. But like, look, I think right now the bear case is like a lot of this revenue is from early adopters who are, you know, sort of playing around with the stuff. Like, that's how I would characterize my spending on on chat GPT. It's like, I haven't really figured, you know, like, yeah, I've listened to like plenty of people say like, oh, here's how you really get into it. Here's how you do it really well.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  And it just hasn't quite stuck and and I'm humble enough to, you know, maybe to say like, um, maybe I just don't get it. And like, maybe I just haven't integrated it into my practices very well. But yeah, there's definitely like some early adopter sort of effect going on that will need to expand beyond that.

• 23:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. And on the enterprise side in particular, we've been talking about it like if enterprises all went in because they had to. And if they're not seeing a return, they could just as easily pull out pretty fast. So. We're going to see what's going to happen on that point.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay. Last point for me, you mentioned in your story, we talked about this a little bit. We don't know what's going to happen. We don't know when their Microsoft credit is going to run out. And do they factor the fact that that credit could be completely gone? Maybe that's what's blowing up their costs. And, you know, do they then, because you mentioned they're basically either giving away or giving at cost what's coming through their API. So does, do they then need to start charging a lot more to developers building on top of this stuff in order to sort of stem the losses they're already expecting to see?

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I don't think, well, there's nothing in the documents that really answers either of those questions necessarily. They, I do think they, when you see the, the compute amortization, it is a line that is going up in, in the, they're, they're going to be expending more on research compute in the coming years. And I would imagine it is with, my, my guess is that it's with the assumption that they won't be able to get as many like research credits from Microsoft for it, or they'll have to go to another vendor and have to pay more or something like that.

• 25:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  So one quick follow up on that, on that front. When are they going to need to raise again?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  That's a, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that is like the question. I think, um, look, they had a billion dollars on their balance sheet when they went out to raise this $6.6 billion. And they also have like a few billions of like a credit revolver that they raised on top of it. So my very back of the, and they still have, I think, billions in research compute left from Microsoft. My back of the envelope would say 2026 at the latest. But, you know, this is, their competitive advantage is over like Anthropic is clearly Sam Altman being one of the best fundraisers in the world. I think they're going to try to keep leveraging that and keep losing money to stay ahead. Like if no one's pushing them to like get profitable, you know,

• 26:06Speaker 01

  they're going to keep spending money on that compute.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  And on that, I'm glad we got to compute amortization. One thing I had to, I had to bring up.

• 26:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Listeners, you should see the smile on Ron John's face when he says the words compute amortization. By the way, it's as happy as I've seen him in months.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  I know, because I mean, from like a pure student of business, it's interesting. It's like something completely, the way they're approaching it and how large language models like should be thought of in a company's financial statements is a completely new thing. But my favorite part of your piece was, is that OpenAI is emphasizing to investors a metric of profitability that excludes some major expenses, such as the billions it's spending annually on training its large language models. And, and I have to give credit, there's a Bjorn Jeffrey who tweeted back, it's time for LLM adjusted EBITDA. And for those listeners who remember the famous WeWork community adjusted EBITDA,

• 27:06Speaker 02

  I, I actually don't think it's crazy that they're going to say we are profitable and create a completely new type. And maybe it's going to be the future, or maybe it'll be like the thing we all remember. But LLM adjusted EBITDA is, I don't think it's, I don't think it's impossible that we see that phrase in a, in a filing one day.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  I, I think you're 100% right. My brain went there. I covered WeWork. Like, like it's, it is very much a, a place where you're like, oh, I've seen this movie before. I don't think we know all the answers yet in terms of what are the real drivers of the business. That's like an area I'd like to like still be reporting on and actually try to answer. Is it legit to kind of strip a lot of your training compute costs out of your cost of goods sold? Like, like, these are the accounting questions and the business nerd questions that I think are going to be relevant to like, how do we actually think about whether this is a good business or not?

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Like, that's kind of like the overarching question around AI is like, is this, okay, the technology seems cool so far. You know, it's really expensive. Is this going to be a good business?

• 28:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  Can I weigh in here on the, should you include training costs in your profitability statement?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  GPT-3 becomes obsolete the second GPT-4 comes out. Right? So the idea that training costs are eventually gonna like, you know, taper off or level out, or you don't need them and they're not part of your overall mix to me is is just so crazy. And, you know, I know that we're the cool-headed and nuanced show, but I just need to say you cannot take training costs out of your profitability statement. There's no basis in reality to do that. It's crazy.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 29:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  I have to get that off my chest.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  It could be cool-headed and nuanced and factual.

• 29:07Alex Kantrowitz?

  I'm losing my chill here. I came into this very zen, but I'm no longer. Training costs don't include or not include your profitability. We're profitable except for our number one costs. I mean, come on.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you nailed it, I think. Yeah.

• 29:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  Anything else, Ron John?

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Um, I think that that captured it, the fiery, passionate statement. You cannot remove your goddamn training costs from your profitability statement.

• 29:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  Corey, thank you for joining us.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  That's what we need. Thanks, guys.

• 29:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Have a great weekend. All right, everybody. We'll be back on the second half to talk about Tesla's robotaxi event and a couple of their big stories from the week. Back right after this. This episode is brought to you by App Point. Everyone's racing to roll out AI right now. Co-pilots, chatbots, agents doing real work. But here's the part nobody loves talking about. All that AI runs on your data and most teams have no single way to see it, secure it, and prove it's under control. That's exactly what App Point does. For 25 years, they've been the trusted layer beneath the world's most demanding data, now extended across your entire AI estate. Your data, your cloud, and the agents acting on your behalf. It's how more than 28,000

• 30:24Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 30:49Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 31:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  and how to lock it down before a threat reaches their front door. That's ironwall.com/bigtechnology. Learn how to stop online threats before they become real-world attacks. The link's in the show notes.

• 31:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  And we're back here on Big Technology Podcast. That was fun having Corey on.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  You can't remove your compute costs from your profitability statement.

• 31:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  And now let's talk about something that's going to make us less upset, which is Tesla's Robo Taxi event. So yesterday, we're talking Friday. On Thursday, Tesla introduced its Robo Taxi, finally also a robo- van. And it had a robotic Optimus walking, many robotic Optimus robots walking through the crowd, talking with the crowd, pouring drinks from the crowd, making jokes with the crowd, playing rock, paper, scissors with the crowd. And then we found out that this wasn't AI. This was almost certainly going to be, this was almost certainly teleoperated by humans on the backend. So Ranjan, I'm curious if you watched the event yesterday and what you made of it?

• 32:38Speaker 02

  I did, I did. I was curious. Okay, on the Optimus robots to start, I think that's, it did kind of capture the whole thing on one side. I don't know if listeners remember, the original Optimus announcement was one of the weirdest things I've ever seen. They had a guy come out in like a robot suit and dance. Do you remember this?

• 32:59Alex Kantrowitz?

  Of course.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, they said they introduced the robot, but it was a guy in a costume.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a guy in a costume. So they have moved to kind of like a low budget Boston Dynamics style robot that can move around. The dexterity of their hands can actually pick up a glass, but they're completely teleoperated and from like you could see the people with laptops and remote controls and stuff, operating them. So

• 33:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  You could actually see that? Or you could just picture them in your head?

• 33:27Speaker 02

  No, no, no, there's, I definitely saw videos on Twitter and okay, not fully validated, at least in reporting that I've seen, but it seems to be the generally, general consensus that like they were being teleoperated.

• 33:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  No doubt. And so many people in the crowd thought that it was AI. And to me, that was like, it's kind of disrespectful to your top users and your top fans to sort of not make clear that these are humanoid robots. And I saw the robots and I was like, oh, they're making pretty good conversation. Oh, AI has really, you know, come a long way. And then you hear people asking questions and you could just totally hear like the California accents of the operators being like, yeah, dude, of course. I'm like totally, you know, artificial intelligence, man.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  But why the, why the event was fun for me or pretty interesting is, and hey, I've been defending OpenAI today. So maybe I'm even going to defend Elon Musk today. Today's a special day. Well, no, but in reality, this is no different than anything he's ever done. Like, oh, not just over promise, put on a, I don't want to say vaporware show, but a show of very, very early stage things and make big promises and uncertain things he's delivered in the past. And so now the idea of seeding this in every person and investor that this could be a reality, it's there, he did it. And I, what I kind of loved is

• 34:56Speaker 02

  he almost was like, just, I'm going to put every, you want a robo taxi? Oh, wait, you talked about a van? Here's a prototype of a van. Optimus robots. Here's the Optimus robot. Like putting every single thing out there rather than just focusing on robo taxis and here's how they will work and here's what it'll do. They went so big that it felt like OpenAI before a fundraiser saying search GPT and every other feature that'll help you fundraise. Unfortunately, the Tesla stock is down 8% today as we speak. So I don't know if it was received in that same way, but but what did you think of it?

• 35:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  So yeah, like first of all, all right, well, here's my perspective. So I think they put everything out there because they knew what was going to happen, which is that everybody was going to see that they had promised robotaxis. I don't know in 2016, they said it was coming by 2020, right? Or in 2024. Now Elon's saying it's 2027. And this technology infamously takes a long time to get on the road. And they knew that sharing further delays was going to make Wall Street mad, and it did. Wall Street dropped the stock 7% today. However, I think that that being said, we still shouldn't lose sight of the fact that they did introduce a robotaxi yesterday. It's not going to be ready for the street yet. I'm sure it will

• 36:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  go through the very, you know, regular and as it should be regulatory intensive processes. And we'll see if it can, you know, stand shoulder to shoulder with the Waymo. But I do think that there is something significant in a company like Tesla going so big into autonomous driving. I'm a huge believer in autonomous driving. We just got news, by the way, that Waymo doubled its global rides, I think, from 50,000 to 100,000 a month from May to October. So that thing is growing like crazy. We've, of course, had the Cruise CEO, ex-CEO now, on the show here, talking about their plans for expansion, which slowed

• 37:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  down. So I do think this is a very difficult discipline to get right. It's one of the hardest problems in technology today, maybe, you know, after AGI. But I do think there's a lot of good in Elon going for it, introducing a prototype. Yes, it was driving on a closed course, but it was driving, and it's going to take some time to get on the roads. And I think that this is, this is one of the biggest net positives for society that technology can bring to us. And I'm just gonna, you know, I will applaud for it, you know, every step of the way, even while noting that it's going to take a long time.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Okay, so listeners, Alex has just flipped me back. My positivity is over.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  I think, uh, no, because the more I was listening, I was, the funny thing is the robo taxi part was one of, actually the least interesting part for me. And the reason is it is technologically complicated, but it's also, it hasn't been fully solved. But as we, you know, Waymo, you've ridden in one. I still haven't gotten to ride one, but, uh, you know, they're on the streets. They're like autonomous vehicles and taxis are out there and they didn't really tell us anything new about what are they doing? They just had a really cool looking, admittedly Tesla type car that came and picked Elon Musk up and dropped him off in a closed course and put on a whole show around it.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  But we didn't actually learn what is different. How are they going to go? Because as you said, it's as much a regulatory challenge as it should be to do this safely as a technological one, which out of all people, I don't see how, what Tesla's path is to actually solving that problem.

• 38:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, this is the thing though. Waymo has paved the way for them to do it because now like to think about the lift to go from no autonomous cars on the road to autonomous cars. That's the hardest part, right? So in some ways that discipline has gone from zero to one. And now all Tesla has to do is follow in the footsteps of Waymo and get its cars on the road in a similar process and just either A, not crash, which is impossible, they'll crash, but B, be honest about it when it happens and make sure to like, you know, crash at a rate that's much lower than human drivers. And then society, I think, needs to get over this fear of letting the robots do the driving, uh, because this is one of the leading causes of death and injury that we have.

• 39:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  And technology can definitely do a better job. I believe that a hundred percent. And, you know, it's also important to make sure that there are safeguards there for everybody. And hopefully they'll get there.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, okay, I completely agree with you. I'm very, very pro autonomous vehicles and think it's still an inevitability at some point, but that's even more why what is Tesla doing different? I didn't quite get, but I actually, I saw somewhere analysis around how Uber is almost the biggest beneficiary of this because it's, it's pushing robot taxis even more into the narrative. And I kind of agreed with the idea that I actually think the taxi or the car itself at some point will be relatively commoditized, but the distribution will be what matters. So if Uber already is the network for transportation for a large majority of people,

• 40:27Speaker 02

  then just they're not being a driver and it being significantly cheaper is going to be a much more direct way versus, and it actually makes more sense, I think, for individuals and for society that you don't buy your own Tesla robot taxi, keep it in your driveway and summon it for you. There's just a bunch. Yeah, you know, exactly, exactly. So, so like the actual, even if it's built correctly and succeeds in that sense, like I, what the attractive business model is for Tesla, I don't fully see.

• 41:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  This to me is the, just the biggest, most underrated tech story of our current moment. And I just think that this is going faster than a lot of people realize. And having Tesla in the game is going to help move things even faster. So I think you're right, we're probably going to summon them on a network. I mean, with Waymo, you use the Waymo app, you don't use Uber. I mean, I guess they are making them available through Uber. But, but the sooner we can get away from what driving looks like today to this envisioned future, the better we're going to be.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  No argument there.

• 41:38Alex Kantrowitz?

  I'm sounding like a broken record. I'm just so excited about the potential here. So.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  I just, I just want to ride in a Waymo. I need to go. Are they outside of San Francisco right now?

• 41:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Or they're in San Francisco, they're in Austin. I think they're piloting in LA. I think, but also like we all know that this stuff is not, it's not going to deploy in cities like New York anytime soon. And the robot is at least five years away, probably 10 years away, but still 10 years is just crazy. It's like, oh, we're going to see that 10 years from now.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is.

• 42:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  To get there, that's amazing.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  I, I don't think.

• 42:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  I can wait.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  I can wait too. I can wait too, but sooner is the better.

• 42:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yep. Okay. So you also try the, speaking of new breaking edge of technology, you have the Snapchat developer AR glasses.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Yes. So.

• 42:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  Give us your quick take on that, and then we're going to move to some other stories, but I am curious what it's been like.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  It was, I loved it. I really loved it. I got these Snapchats developer spectacles. And it's interesting because I've tried the Vision Pro many times. I never ended up buying one. We talked about it a lot. It was so easy to start to understand, to put on. They're, they're certainly not things you would ever wear around during the day. They look kind of ridiculous and they're not completely lightweight, but they're still relatively light. But for really straightforward augmented reality experiences and being able to touch virtual things and move them around and the reactivity of your fingers pinching and these kinds of actions.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  And they just have a very, very limited set of experiences available because this is for developers to build on. And I've actually started learning how to build in Lens Studio. It's, I think it's, this is the future. I genuinely believe augmented reality. And which is why, I mean, Meta bet on it. And I think it's really interesting, the difference between the two companies. Meta is still completely closed off with Orion and only giving it out to some maybe preferred developers versus Snap is like, let's go to the community and let's let people build on it before releasing this as a consumer product. So I really, really am excited about it. And honestly, to me, the most amazing part of it. I put them on my five and a half year old son.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  The, he had, he said, he goes, this is, this is a vision.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Which was like the most profound thing. I was like, literally, I was like, okay, I'm gonna go buy Snap stock right now. And like, like for a five year old to just say something like that. And then thing is, he got it right away. He starts pinching and he did the painting app where you can draw, which is the kind of thing I saw in Magic Leap a few years ago. But you would have to wear a big battery pack and it like, was kind of complicated to figure out. He figured that out in 10 seconds. So to me, the actual end adoption of this, I think is going to be ubiquitous. It's going to be everywhere. If a five year old can start painting in augmented reality in less than 10 seconds, I think that's huge.

• 44:45Alex Kantrowitz?

  Let's get your take. What comes first? Universal robot taxis or we're wearing AR glasses?

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, I think, I think wearing AR glasses, not everyone, but like, early adopters casually wearing AR glasses that can allow you things like video calling and like, basic AR interaction, I think is going to become normalized in three to five years instead of five to 10. There it is.

• 45:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, I'm on board with that. That sounds, that sounds accurate to me. So this is just kind of like one of those shows where we hit all of our pet stories.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  There's a lot going on and we want to talk about it.

• 45:30Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, Shein has an IPO that's en route. And it's, it's quite interesting because A, they're like one of these companies that has been, I don't know, competing with Amazon, just this sort of massive and underrated first party marketplace that we've been talking about on the show. But they do have a pretty weird CEO. And how is that impacting their, their push to go

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll, we'll keep this one quick, but I really wanted to highlight this this week. So Shein, we, the, when they IPO and for how much has been a conversation for a while. They filed in London at around their seeking to raise at a $64 billion valuation. This is a company that was once valued at 100 billion. That's down, but they're still making. Uh, the growth rate slowed at first. They were growing 40 plus percent. Now it's gone below 30%. But again, this is a $30 billion company that just grew 30% last year. That's like, especially in retail is insane.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  To me, the most fascinating part, there's a Wall Street Journal story about the CEO of Shein. Was just in London, starting to meet large institutional investors to pitch the IPO. And it's the first time most of them are ever meeting this person. And then the more I started digging in, it's actually crazy. There is reporting back in December where when they started pitching around the IPO or like announcing they could IPO, where they gave him a little bit more of a public persona. But in his own offices, he is unrecognized. His name is Sky Xu, X U Xu. My Chinese accent is not perfect.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  And, uh, he, uh, he was not recognized in his own office by his own employees. He has such a low profile. In fact, in the Western press, there was a image that went around as the only image that was used in news stories of him that was of a different person, just who had the same last name. Cause no one knew who this person was. And this is the CEO of a potentially $64 billion company. That it's just a, it was just such like a, another amazing sign of how these companies can grow to that scale and versus any American company. We have said the name Sam Altman, probably even my mother knows who that is like.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  The leaders here and the way they approach the these kind of companies versus a company like Shein.

• 48:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, let's talk about what's going on in China because they did have all those tech leaders that started to become prominent. Jack Ma comes to mind, then they all were forced to step down, disappeared. Jack Ma, I mean, we haven't heard from him for a while. He surfaces every now and again, but clearly the word is stay out of the way. Do you think that this person's anonymity is a response to that?

• 48:32Speaker 02

  That's a fair point because also if we remember the ByteDance CEO, Zhang Yiming, he had to step down. And it was reportedly around like pressure from the government in terms of like

• 48:47Speaker 02

  just becoming too powerful in the way they were approaching themselves publicly. So, so that that could be it. I almost just want to believe, I do kind of love the idea because again, in the reporting, there was like, this guy was known as someone who people don't even recognize in the office, but could recite from memory the average wage paid to the like all 10,000 suppliers. Like, you know, just the idea of a CEO who's so detail oriented and obsessive and, and like well at executing, who just is like, I don't need to tweet. I like this.

• 49:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  This is the second, this is, well, a conspiracy. But I'm going to share it and see what you think. Do you think it's a state run company? I mean, is that also possible? And he's just representative of the state?

• 49:38Speaker 02

  That I feel is an interesting one. I mean, no, I, it actually, it's a good one. It's a good, because again, they have so thoroughly disrupted retail in the United States, in Europe. Like Shein has just completely, I don't want to say destroyed, but certainly transformed every, the way every retailer in the West works. So it worked if that was, if that was the plan, it has definitely worked.

• 50:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  And how is it done that transformation?

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Well, no, I mean, just by being able to so they can sell products at just like a fraction of the cost of other retailers. And there's always been this kind of mythical idea that they have this, they call it real times fashion. It's like a supply chain that they can put just five items on a website. If it starts to sell instantly, order more because they're so closely knit and technologically connected to their supply network versus traditional fashion. You're ordering six to 12 months ahead of time. You have to order quantities in the thousands minimum. So it's this idea that you can do that in such a nimble

• 50:54Speaker 02

  and agile fashion that that's the secret to making the items so low cost. And because they're so low cost, obviously, like what that does to consumers in the US and in Europe and what that means in terms of pressure for a traditional retailer. That's why traditional retail in the US is not doing as well.

• 51:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  Maybe it is state run.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  I, when you said it, I'm trying to be nuanced here and not overly conspiratorial.

• 51:25Alex Kantrowitz?

  But it's, why isn't it a valid hypothesis?

• 51:29Speaker 02

  I think it's a valid hypothesis. And if it was, it would be very successful at how they execute it. And, and in reality, like, it's funny because I'm almost like uncomfortable to think that. But, I mean, we are subsidizing chip manufacturers to win the next generation of technology. And that everyone, when it comes to microchips, is totally okay saying state subsidies to win the larger battle is okay. So why not $5 t-shirt, or actually, probably like $1 t-shirts, $5 dresses, $3 pants, all of the above?

• 52:04Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yes, it's crazy. I guess consumers like it, but in a roundabout way, there's going to be harmed by it. It just goes to like your typical story of like, if you're going to build the cars, you should be paying your workers enough to buy the cars. But, you know, you, you sell products for such low prices, it just degrades like what you pay. I mean, of course, it's all international, but domestic businesses have to keep up. And it's not easy.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, Breakdown a Society.

• 52:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Part of your $3 t-shirt.

• 52:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  And you know, you just gave me like the perfect lead into our final story of of the week, which is another company with links to China that is, you know, potentially harming our society. And we like to usually end on a positive note. Although last week we ended on a depressing note, and we're gonna just do it two weeks in a row because all these states sued TikTok. And TikTok's internal communications that have come out in this lawsuit are quite damning and concerning. So this is from NPR. TikTok executives knew about the app's effect on teens, lawsuit documents allege. Here's the beginning of the story. For the first time, internal TikTok communications have been made public

• 53:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  to show the company was unconcerned with the harms of the that the app poses for American teenagers. This despite its own research validating many child safety concerns. It was made public as part of these lawsuits and two-year a two-year investigation into TikTok by 14 attorneys general. And then one of the lawsuits filed by Kentucky, they the Kentucky attorney generals, the redactions were faulty. And the Kentucky Public Radio copied and pasted excerpts of the redacted material and were able to like, see what they said, which is hilarious. Like, what did you just like, release a Microsoft Word

• 53:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  document and like, highlight the redactions in in black? Like, what were you doing there? Anyway, so the documents found that a company was aware of many features designed to keep young people on the app that led to a constant and irresistible urge to keep opening the app. Now, this is standard for the, you know, par for the course for all social media companies. Here's what it's, here's what it said. TikTok's own research, and this sort of floored me, stated that compulsive usage correlates with a slew of negative mental health effects like loss of analytical skills, memory formation, contextual thinking, conversational depth, empathy, and increased anxiety.

• 54:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  And the documents also showed that TikTok was aware of that compulsive usage also interferes with essential personal responsibilities like sufficient sleep, work, school responsibilities, and connecting with loved ones, and yet continued to press the gas pedal. And to me, as a TikTok user, that all felt like exactly right, felt all spot on. It was just astonishing to hear that TikTok had internal research explicitly stating these harms. And as soon as I read this NPR story, TikTok was off my phone. Now, we'll see how long it stays off, but that's not something I want happening to me, and it certainly shouldn't be happening to kids. And I just felt that to be quite,

• 55:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  quite concerning, more than like a lot of the other problems that we hear about TikTok. What do you think, Ron John?

• 55:32Speaker 02

  I, this is the one thing, I do agree that when I was reading through all this, that these are the effects. It's like, yeah, we know, we all know, we still may use them. So I think on that side, and the idea that they knew about it, it almost feels like cigarette companies of the 50s and 60s, everything was known, and everything was even researched on and like internally reported on, but just not made external. To me, though, the one thing that in this conversation is, I think Instagram, TikTok is our, their algorithm is probably better, but Meta's algorithm to do short form video and to be able to

• 56:15Speaker 02

  show you content without following, meaning you can get like addicted more quickly and instantly, is catching up in a big way. And we see it in the numbers around engagement with Instagram. So I think the idea that TikTok is unique in this, I don't necessarily believe or buy. I think they're all doing the same thing. So necessarily singling out TikTok in this, I think it should be a class action against all companies with platforms this addictive.

• 56:44Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah. No, I'm with you. I mean, something's broken here. Let's just agree that. And I don't think it is TikTok specific. I think it's just across the board. Something's broken. And it does seem like the public's interest in fixing it, despite these lawsuits, has waned.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, when the presidential campaigns are on TikTok, even while we talk about banning it, like, I think that it's interesting because, and we talked about Mark Zuckerberg's kind of like image rehabilitation the other week. It's fascinating to me that, and because I was like very involved in this research and conversation, like 2018, 2017, around misinformation and like out problems with algorithms, no one's seeming to really care that much anymore. All the, uh, the like, algorithms are bad for you. That whole conversation seemed to die down. Everyone became comfortable with Instagram reels and others all catching up to the TikTok

• 57:45Speaker 02

  model. So I'll say that is a little depressing.

• 57:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  You know, you know what I just found on this receiver I have that goes into the microphone? It has all these voice changing effects.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  I think this makes me a small robot.

• 58:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  Small robot. And then

• 58:07Speaker 02

  What else do you have?

• 58:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  I got monster.

• 58:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Anyway.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  I think that was the only way to end.

• 58:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  My desperate, my desperate attempt to do something

• 58:19Speaker 02

  Bring back some life.

• 58:20Alex Kantrowitz?

  Not breaking us down and getting sad about society. Here's Megafone.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  All right.

• 58:24Speaker 04

  Hello, everybody.

• 58:26Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, I won't ever do that again.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  I think that could be, that could be a whole Jim Cramer style thing.

• 58:32Alex Kantrowitz?

  Could be, it could be a thing. All right, everybody.

• 58:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  On that note, we're gonna be back next week, right?

• 58:40Speaker 02

  Yep, let's do it.

• 58:41Alex Kantrowitz?

  Great, we'll be back next week and I'm gonna have Josh Brown's coming on the show next Wednesday. We're gonna talk all about the markets and his new book. So I hope you enjoy that. Thank you, Ranjan. Great talking as always. Thank you, Corey.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  See you next week.

• 58:56Alex Kantrowitz?

  And we'll see you next, next time on Big Technology Podcast.

• 59:01Speaker 05

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• 59:30Speaker 06

  In this life, you can't win.

• 59:32Speaker 04

  When the world gets you down.

• 59:33Speaker 06

  No!

• 59:34Speaker 04

  Escape to Pluto TV.

• 59:36Speaker 06

  This is objectively fantastic.

• 59:37Speaker 04

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• 59:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  You stay classy, San Diego.

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  The best things on TV really are free. You just have to know where to look. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.