How to Become More Confident, Influential, and Communicate Better with #1 Harvard Business Professor

Today's episode is going to completely change the way you think about every conversation you've been too afraid to have. Ever wonder why your relationships feel surface level, even after years? Why you feel lonely, even when you're surrounded by people? Why you say “I’m fine,” even when you’re not? Why some people earn trust instantly, while you struggle to be taken seriously? Harvard Business School’s Dr. Leslie K. John, a behavioral scientist who has spent decades studying honesty, trust, privacy, regret, and decision-making, is here to teach you the answer – and it's not what you think. In today’s episode, you will learn the surprising science of honesty, vulnerability, and human connection. Her research has found why the things you don't say are quietly hurting your health, your relationships, and your career – and exactly what to do about it. For years, the advice has been: don't overshare, at work or with friends. Keep things private. But decades of Harvard research say that advice is backwards. Dr. John's findings are shocking, and reveal that the real problem, the one deepening loneliness and costing you the career and connections you want, is undersharing. In this episode, you’ll learn that 89% of people would choose to work with, trust, and hire someone who reveals something difficult, even something unflattering, over someone who stays quiet. That keeping secrets doesn't just feel heavy. Research shows it lowers cognitive performance, IQ, and is linked to measurable declines in physical health. That one of the most common deathbed regrets is “I wish I had shared my feelings more.” That you can use The Disclosure Matrix, which is the exact decision-making tool Dr. John teaches at Harvard Business School, so you always know when to speak up and when to stay quiet. And, you’ll learn the 2-sentence framework that makes any hard conversation easier to start. If you've ever held something back because you didn't want to make things awkward, said "I'm fine" when you weren't, or wished your relationships felt deeper and more honest, this episode will change the way you communicate forever. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-392/ Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Intro 01:51 Skills That Will Change Your Life 04:21 Should You Should Be Sharing More? 19:03 Understanding Introversion & Shyness 25:19 How To Decide What To Share And What Not To Share 31:24 The Health Cost of Under-Sharing 34:39 Powerful Tools to Process Your Emotions 40:57 How To Deeply Express Yourself In Conversation 44:46 The Cost of Keeping Secrets 47:55 The Harvard Business School Disclosure Matrix Explained 58:47 Why You Should Be Open With Your Feelings — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:09Mel Robbins?

  Let me ask you a question. How many times today did you stop yourself from saying something? I get it, maybe it felt awkward or unnecessary, or that if you said something, it might make things weird. So instead, you were like, "I'm fine." You kept it light. You swallowed the comment. You hid the truth. And you let it go. You probably told yourself, "Oh, that's maturity. That's emotional intelligence. That's having solid boundaries, not saying anything." But what if you're just terrified of oversharing? You obsess over saying too much. You replay conversations because you're worried that you said the wrong thing, or you crossed a line, or people are gonna judge you.

• 0:52Mel Robbins?

  Most of us think the danger is in oversharing, you know, saying too much, crossing a line, being too vulnerable. But today's guest, a Harvard Business School professor who's a behavioral scientist and studies decision-making, says that's the wrong fear. What you should be afraid of is the real damage that comes from undersharing, being closed off, not opening up about what's going on in your life. This episode is not about sharing everything with everyone. This episode is about the skill of being open, being vulnerable, and learning how to be honest about what's going on.

• 1:33Mel Robbins?

  Because if you really apply what you're about to learn today, your relationships will be closer, your conversations are gonna get easier, you'll feel happier because of these tips from the number one professor at Harvard Business School.

• 1:52Mel Robbins?

  Before we jump in, I want to invite you to stick around for a special segment later in the episode, sponsored by Expedia, because I'm gonna be sharing something that might make you a happier person, starting today.

• 2:11Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. It's always an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener, or you're here because somebody shared this episode with you, I just wanted to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. Today, we're talking about research that will change your life and your career from the number one professor on decision-making at Harvard Business School. Today's guest is a leading authority on how people decide what to reveal, what to withhold, and how those decisions shape trust, relationships, success, and happiness. I'm talking about Dr. Leslie K. John.

• 2:55Mel Robbins?

  She is a Harvard Business School professor, the James E. Burke Professor of Business Administration, and a behavioral scientist who has spent decades studying honesty, self-disclosure, trust, privacy, regret, and decision-making. Her research has been published in the most respected scientific journals in the world, and she is the author of the bestselling book, Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing, which completely changed how I think about silence, vulnerability, and the things we don't say. So, without further ado, please help me welcome Dr. Leslie John to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks so much for having me.

• 3:35Mel Robbins?

  I am so excited to dig into everything that you're about to teach us, your research. And where I want to start is how selfishly, how could my life be different? If I take to heart everything that you are teaching at Harvard Business School, the lessons, the takeaway, the research, and I really apply it to my life, how is my life going to change?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  So, number one is the realization that... Revealing wisely is a skill. It's not something we're born good or bad at. It is a skill. And you can do some really practical things, which we're going to talk about, to do it really wisely. And if you do it wisely, it's going to transform your relationships. It's going to change how you show up at work. It's going to help you thrive at work. It's going to make you more influential. And it's even going to shape and improve your well-being, your day-to-day happiness.

• 4:30Mel Robbins?

  Just by being more open?

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Yes. You're going to notice that your EQ, your emotional intelligence, is going to increase. You're going to have much better self-awareness and understanding, and you're having a much better understanding of others. As a result, you'll be much better able to identify and process your emotions. You will feel, therefore, less stressed. You will ruminate less. You will, you know, that post-conversational replay, that gut-wrenching, "Oh, my God, what did I do?" That's going to dial way down because part of opening up is saying hard things. You're going to learn to be more assertive, which will help you with boundaries beyond -- and you'll feel more, it's not just the absence of negative stuff or the mitigating of it. You're going to feel more joy. You're going to be happier.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  I sure am, and if this curmudgeonly academic feels that way. You'll also find benefits in your workplace, in your career. So it's interesting because the tools there are kind of counterintuitive, the things that you do to, say, gain more influence. So I'm excited to talk about that. So let's go.

• 5:34Mel Robbins?

  You know, Dr. John, I'm sitting here thinking, if you're standing before a class at Harvard Business School, you've got to have a bunch of really type A people in there who want to go into I-banking, or be the next billionaire, or build something meaningful, hard-working, hard-driving. They end up in front of you, and you're like, "Hey, let's talk about the power of oversharing."

• 5:58Speaker 01

  I know.

• 5:59Mel Robbins?

  How do you sell the benefit of being more open and what you call oversharing to somebody?

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:07Mel Robbins?

  Who is just in your class to get ahead?

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:10Mel Robbins?

  What is the real benefit of that?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yes. Great question. The way I start is by Speaking their language. So I teach a lot of executives and some of them rightly so. Well, I'm a skeptical person. They're like, what is this? And especially sometimes when it comes to like feelings and emotions, what is this? And so what I do is I start by showing them in business contexts, how this, first of all, this is crass, maybe, I am a business school professor, how it helps them make money.

• 6:39Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  And then I show-

• 6:40Mel Robbins?

  Wait, so if you share more, you make more money?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  So, the example I give there, I know, what?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  As a company, so when we share more, where we open up, when we reveal slightly sensitive things, it causes whoever we're revealing to, to trust us more.

• 6:56Mel Robbins?

  Hmm.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  And the same is true in companies. When companies reveal more, it causes their trust, and I don't use the word "cause" lightly, right? These are randomized experiments. It causes their customers to trust them more and to buy more. So we've done studies with, like, the largest bank in Australia, for example, where, with my colleague Ryan Buell, where somehow we convinced them to, on their credit card website, so when you're going and looking for a credit card on their, their bank, Commonwealth Bank of Australia, what we convinced them to do is, half of the time, to reveal reasons why you might not want the credit card.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  So like, pay attention, the fees are really high, or the points aren't great, or whatever. The high interest rate, like drawing attention, basically saying, "Don't buy this." But that's a form of sensitive disclosure, right? And what did that do? It actually, it did not scare people away. It didn't decrease customer acquisition, and it increased retention. The experiment alone made the bank millions of dollars, and then they rolled it out. And then their competitors copied them. So, so that's kind of, I start in the like money realm.

• 8:06Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  And then they're like, oh, okay. And then I go into leadership, and there I go into how, when you're a leader, revealing a little bit more than you think you should. And I take them through. I first get them to craft a little self-introduction. I say, imagine you're about to introduce yourself to a group of new hires. What, what would you say about yourself? And then I say, raise your hand if you had any negative traits in that. Crickets. And then I said, we did a study with actual managers where we randomized them to either do what you did and not share weaknesses, or some of them planted, put a few weaknesses in. And then we asked the employees who they want to work for. They want to work for the person that has the weaknesses. They don't think the employer is incompetent. They just trust them more and they want to work for them.

• 8:48Mel Robbins?

  Well, I find this so fascinating because you hear the word oversharing and you're, you think about those moments where something fell out of your mouth and then you regret it.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 8:59Mel Robbins?

  And the research that you've been doing is so groundbreaking. What actually led you to go, oh, wait a minute. Oversharing and revealing things that you may be hiding or may be scared to say really matters. Like, what was that moment you're like, I'm looking at this wrong?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  For me, the study that changed everything was a simple thought experiment I ran where we could actually ask listeners to think through this little thought experiment. So imagine you are deciding between two possible dates, two possible suitors, and you talk to one of them and you ask them, have you ever had any sexually transmitted diseases, STDs? Now, I know that that's

• 9:47Mel Robbins?

  That's kind of forward.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Okay. Harvard Business School professor says, no. Yes, that's super forward. Obviously, obviously, we're not going to open with that one. I'm boiling it down to you because you're busy people. So, okay, so you ask the person this and they say, actually, yeah, I've had a lot of STDs. Ooh. Okay, so then you ask the other person, same question, and they say, I don't want to answer that question. I'm not answering it. Refuse to answer. And so we asked, we put thousands of people in this quandary. Now, neither of these is exactly, as my father would say, a fine specimen. So you, like, you push come to shove. You want someone who's more responsible or who answers your questions. But if you had to choose, if you had to choose, who would you pick?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  And again and again, we found people prefer the revealer, the person who says the thing, even if it's a terrible thing, relative to someone One who hides, who saliently withholds. We've found this in dating contexts. So here it's about 65% of people. So not 100% of people, but the majority, the significant majority prefer this devil they know. In other studies, we found, like in another study, we, um, we asked people who they'd rather hire. Would you rather hire someone who on the job application answered the question, what are your worst grades and admitted that they'd failed versus the someone, someone who opted out? Something like 89% of people choose the person who admits to the bad thing. And, and this just was like astounding to us.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  So we did more studies and what we realized was that the reason that people really didn't want to go for the hider was because they distrusted them. Because at least the person who revealed, at least they revealed and they're trustworthy. And now why does, then the question is, you know, every question you answer in research is why I love my job is another question, another layer. Well, why is that person trustworthy? And what we found was that when you think about it, revealing something sensitive to someone is showing that you trust the person. Because I'm saying the thing and I'm like relinquishing control to the universe. And I'm implicitly saying, I trust you to not make a fool out of me, right?

• 11:55Speaker 01

  So I'm showing, and when we feel that someone trusts us, it causes us to trust them in return. And why is that important? Because it is the foundation of human relationships, right? We're herd creatures. We cannot survive without strong relationships. And so when someone abstains saliently from this activity of revealing when they say, I'm not, I'm opting out of answering, we treat them with contempt, so much so that we would rather hire someone, date someone who admits to pretty bad things relative to someone who simply abstains. And you could think about it like, there's lots of reasons why the, um, non-responder, it could be a principled non-response, right? They could be saying, this is an insensitive, this is not the right question, I object, right?

• 12:35Mel Robbins?

  Well, when you said imagine, just imagine you have two people you're trying to decide you're going to go out on a date with. You ask them, do you have any history with STDs?

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:44Mel Robbins?

  The second that you told me that the second person was like, I refuse to answer that. I'm like, well, that's because you have an STD.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:51Mel Robbins?

  I'm going with the person.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:52Mel Robbins?

  That is willing.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:54Mel Robbins?

  To reveal that.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:55Mel Robbins?

  Because you're right. I feel like, I mean, it's so obvious now that.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Now, I know.

• 12:59Mel Robbins?

  You explain it, Professor.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:00Mel Robbins?

  But I think when you're in the situation, the instinct is to hide the information.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yes, completely.

• 13:05Mel Robbins?

  To put up a perfect front.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 13:08Mel Robbins?

  And to not reveal.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 13:10Mel Robbins?

  Things that you believe people will judge you for.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  And in fact, we did other experiments where we put people in that position. We said, okay, you have, like, imagine you have, we didn't have, make people imagine they had lots of STDs. We, we've got them to imagine that they had failed an exam or something.

• 13:28Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  And, and you're getting on a job application. And we like incented them to, incentive compatible, and we like, we really wanted them to be honest. And we said, would you reveal this, or would you choose not to answer? Almost everyone thinks the wise move there is to choose not to answer. And it's wrong, right?

• 13:42Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:43Mel Robbins?

  Well, I don't know if it's the lawyer in me, but now what you're saying is that based on the research, it's actually human nature that when somebody avoids answering something, or you even pick up on a smidge of, I don't think I'm getting the full story here. You will not trust that person.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:59Mel Robbins?

  And so by not revealing, and you know what's crazy about this? If you really stop, as you're listening to Dr. John, and you're imagining these questions, and somebody's like, well, I'm not comfortable answering that. You immediately go liar.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:14Mel Robbins?

  You immediately believe.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:18Mel Robbins?

  And assume that the person is not telling you the truth. But here's what's crazy.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:23Mel Robbins?

  The person is saying that.

• 14:27Mel Robbins?

  Because they literally don't want you to judge them, but by saying it.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Isn't it ironic?

• 14:31Mel Robbins?

  It's crazy.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  It's so ironic. It's so ironic. And, and in the law, like, I always think the, that the law, how like, you're, you're not supposed to, you would know better than I'm butchering how to say it, but where, where you plead Fifth Amendment or whatever, you're not supposed to make any inference from that. It's impossible. It's an automatic inference that we make.

• 14:50Mel Robbins?

  Yes, it's so true. So you mentioned that you're doing all this research, and all of a sudden, the research reveals to you.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:57Mel Robbins?

  That, wow.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:58Mel Robbins?

  Not sharing the truth.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:01Mel Robbins?

  Makes you less trustworthy.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Yes. There's two other, I won't, I won't say them in such detail. But there's two other things that were like, blow my mind moments.

• 15:08Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, let's hear it.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Okay. So the next was a study.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Hard scientific study, I'm making fun of myself because I love doing, you know, fun, but I think deeply revealing experiments with people where I put them in these awkward situations. This was by a neuroscientist, so like a hardcore scientist. And what they did was they put people in brain scanners to look at what areas of their brain were activated. And half of the people, they asked them personal questions. So they asked them to reveal. The other half were asked different questions that didn't give them the opportunity to reveal. And what they found was that the people who got to reveal, the pleasure centers of their brain were activated.

• 15:49Mel Robbins?

  If they told the truth.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Well, they didn't even tell, like, the questions were not necessarily places where you would lie. They were like, what's your favorite ice cream flavor? What are you, like, they were just anything about yourself, not particularly sensitive, but talking about yourself, revealing about yourself, the pleasure centers of the brain activated relative to when you weren't talking about yourself. And that, to me, was like, wow, this is like, these are the really old brain structures. And if there's something really deeply, intrinsically rewarding, there's something really important going on here that we need to pay attention to.

• 16:21Mel Robbins?

  And just to make sure that I kind of got the power of that insight, and that as you're listening or watching, you really pulled out from our esteemed professor. What that tells you, if I'm hearing you correctly, is that you are hardwired to feel good about yourself when you reveal things about you that are true.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 16:46Mel Robbins?

  That it's part of the design. And I would imagine that if you suppress that, that it has a negative backfiring effect, too, since you're wired for this.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

• 16:59Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. There is a third study, which I could talk about, that like rocked me.

• 17:04Mel Robbins?

  Yeah. What's the third study that rocked you?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  So the third study that rocked me, I encountered this oldie but goodie, or baddie study, depending on how you view the conclusions, about what they did in this study was they videotaped preschoolers as they were watching a kind of scary movie. And so they were videotaping them to see how much they expressed on their faces, how much seeped out, how much did they show on their faces of their feelings. They also measured how sweaty their palms are. So this is the galvanic skin response, which measures sweat on your fingers. You know how when you get nervous, you get sweaty fingers? And so that's physiological stress, kind of like objective stress, if you were to think about it that way. And what they found was that the children who let more out on their faces,

• 17:50Speaker 01

  they were physiologically calmer.

• 17:52Mel Robbins?

  Meaning their fingers weren't sweaty?

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 17:55Mel Robbins?

  So through their facial expression and reacting and revealing,

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:00Mel Robbins?

  you were processing the stressful feelings you had?

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Now, that's the awesome, like, that's total revelation, right? Now, I am a mom of a three-year-old, my bunny's a three-year-old and a five-year-old. And when I read this, you know, they were similar ages and to what they are now, obviously. And the kicker, though, is that the study found that once the children reached kindergarten age, there had been, there was a gender difference, such that the boys were now holding it in.

• 18:33Mel Robbins?

  Hmm.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  So whereas when they were preschoolers, they were kind of all expressing it. But over time, the boys had learned, and I'm using air quotes if you're listening, they'd been culturally conditioned to be stoic and like, boys don't show, right? These toxic norms we have. And so as a boy mom, I'm, you know, a couple of months ago, I saw my little three-and-a-half-year-old being stoic, that face, you know, the stoic face?

• 18:57Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  And I just broke my heart and it's Tyler, like, it's okay, I may be overcompensating, but that really, really shook me.

• 19:06Mel Robbins?

  Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I'm thinking right now about somebody in my life who recently told me this story about how when he was really, really little, they had a death in the family. And at the funeral, he started to get very, very upset. And, you know, when someone in the family put a hand on this little boy's shoulder and said, "You gotta be strong for mom." And that became Strong for Mom, became the mantra in this person's mind that has really defined the way in which they've expressed emotion, or not expressed emotion,

• 19:51Mel Robbins?

  or, you know, believed that they needed to be stoic. And in the context of your research, I would imagine you would say that the being open and the sharing of emotion is really the opportunity to break the hold that Strong for Mom

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 20:12Mel Robbins?

  has on you.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 20:14Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 20:15Mel Robbins?

  So what is the life of an undersharer look like?

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Yes. I would say the life of an undersharer is a life of missed opportunities. It's a life of friendships that never blossom. It's a life of colleagues that never quite trust you. It's a life of romances that don't spark or don't deepen.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  I know. It's so sad.

• 20:41Mel Robbins?

  It is. And how do you know if you're an undersharer versus somebody who is just very much like shy or introverted, or just a little bit more of an observer? What's the difference? Or is there a difference?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  I love that question because being talkative is not the same thing as being reeely.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Or revealing wisely, for that matter.

• 21:07Mel Robbins?

  Let me just pause you there.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:10Mel Robbins?

  Because, is that aimed at me?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  No, no, just kidding. I'm just kidding. That was a joke.

• 21:15Mel Robbins?

  Oh, good, good, good. I love the joke. I love it. But I think that's an important thing that those of us that may be a little bit more talkative doesn't necessarily mean you're actually practicing the skill and art of sharing.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Completely, completely. So I'm pretty introverted, but I'm pretty forthcoming.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  And one of my very best friends is extremely extroverted. And she herself struggles to open up. In fact, she said that she really, really struggles with vulnerability. And at first, I would say, I've said this to her face. At first, I, I, I thought that that was just like an elaborate home over egg. I can't be vulnerable. But I've seen firsthand that she struggles. And that really has, has solidified to me what I call the extroversion illusion, which is that we tend to think equate talkativeness with going deep and opening up. They're really not at all the same thing. So we love extroverts because they're gregarious, they're talkative, they're, they have a really positive affect, right? They're often in a good mood.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  But when it comes to revealing the really deep stuff, think about the extroverts in your life. They're probably no different than the introverts in terms of how much they reveal or don't, right? So revealing is really a different thing than talking.

• 22:29Mel Robbins?

  Hmm. I love that distinction because when you bring in the word open, how open are you? How much do you actually share versus the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I would say that the people that are the best revealers, the best sharers, are the ones that are the most flexible. They have the most disclosure flexibility. So they, they have a wide range. They go from extreme openness with their most trusted confidants to like extreme guardedness when the situation calls for, right? So they're really nimble at moving between these extremes.

• 23:03Mel Robbins?

  That's an important distinction. Because when you first kind of dive into your work, you might think, oh, okay, I just got to be super vulnerable, a completely open book. I got a blah, blah, blah. And it's both extremes. It's knowing when to be open and when to be guarded.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:20Mel Robbins?

  So how do you know the difference between being the kind of person that tends to just be shy or introverted versus being somebody who's closed and is under sharing and connecting with people?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. That's a great question. I think that you need to look to yourself first and do a kind of audit of, I think, a, a place where this shows up very saliently is in one's relationships, right? Like your spouse, your relationship with your spouse. Do you, how much do you share with them? Do you really feel like they know you? Do you feel like you know them? How much are you talking about your feelings versus logistics? You can do kind of an audit like that.

• 24:03Mel Robbins?

  What are some of the things that you would notice if you start to think? And I'll just, I'll just like, share this in case it's helpful as you're listening or watching us. So I would say, God, we've married three, about four or five years ago, Chris and I started seeing a therapist. And one of the most shocking things, as somebody who's very talkative, and I'm married to somebody who is way more introverted and up in his head and a thinker. And it was extraordinarily fascinating to see that we, even though we were side by side,

• 24:49Mel Robbins?

  lots of logistics, doing life together, having fun, in terms of our experiences of life and in terms of our connection in our marriage, our therapist uses this term, you two are two people that stand next to each other, but you're sequestered in your own experiences.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Jeez.

• 25:08Mel Robbins?

  And what was really unbelievable about it is that learning how to be more open with one another, which is different than just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah about your day, is a skill.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 25:24Mel Robbins?

  And I feel like in the last four years, learning how to be more open with Chris and having him also lean in to learning how to reveal and even talk about the things that he's thinking about or feeling or whatever, has brought us so much closer because, and then I think about the last 26 years, and we've had completely different experiences in our minds and bodies because we weren't really connecting over it. We were just doing life together, if that makes sense.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Well, I think we're like, living in a parallel universe because I have had the exact same experience with my own. We have a marriage therapist. He's amazing. You know, I started realizing I'm making all these assumptions about, and these tiffs we get into, it's because we're not actually communicating how we feel. And so there's so many things that, that, that like, opening this, this box of like, what your spouse is thinking and feeling is just so, so helpful for marriage and staying together. And it prevents these stupid tiffs because it's never about the... You know, the dishes in the dishwasher, whatever, right?

• 26:29Mel Robbins?

  Dr. John, I love everything that you're sharing with us today. I know as you're listening, you can relate. You're probably thinking about somebody or yourself. You might be thinking about your partner, a friend, a coworker, even maybe one of your kids who really deserves to get all of this information and these life-changing takeaways from Dr. John. So while you have that person in mind, I want you to send them this episode. And we're going to take a quick break to let our incredible sponsors shine and share a few words, but stay with me because this conversation is only getting more powerful because Dr. John has so much more to share with you and me. Stay with me.

• 27:19Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today, we are talking about the idea that you're not oversharing. You're saying too little. You're learning about the skill of openness and vulnerability and how to have more courage in your life and the benefits of doing so with Harvard Business School professor, Dr. Leslie John. All right, so Dr. John, let's just jump right back into it. You know, you also in your work, you talk about disclosure decisions. Can you explain to the person listening and to me? What is a disclosure decision?

• 27:56Speaker 01

  I love that. So a disclosure decision is simply a decision of whether to reveal something or to not reveal something. So many of our disclosure decisions ride under the surface. We don't even realize we are making these decisions. So often, we just kind of default to silence. We don't even consider the possibility of opening up. And so what I'd like to do is I'd like to do a little demo here to help us understand this a little bit. A day in the life of disclosure decisions.

• 28:24Mel Robbins?

  Okay, so you're going to walk us through the average day and you're going to point out all of these subconscious moments where something is happening in your interpersonal life and you just decide not to say anything?

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:40Mel Robbins?

  Oh, I have a feeling it's going to be painful. Okay.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  It's just gonna be an average boring day, but that's the point, right?

• 28:45Mel Robbins?

  Okay, average boring day, and Dr. John is reaching down and she is pulling up, and there's a basket, and there are yellow ping pong ball things, like little wiffle ball things, that she has in the basket. There's one right there. Okay, you hear it. And why don't you walk us through what's about to happen?

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:02Mel Robbins?

  And there's a big mason jar.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Okay, so, I'm going to walk us through the day in a life of disclosure decisions. And what my purpose here is, I want to make visible something that is typically invisible in our lives, and that is the sheer number of disclosure decisions we actually make unknowingly.

• 29:24Mel Robbins?

  And this is also helping us really consider, are you open? And are you revealing what's happening?

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:31Mel Robbins?

  Or are you staying closed, and you're undersharing what's happening in your life?

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 29:38Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:39Mel Robbins?

  Okay, and you know, as you're listening, you will be able to hear the impact of this, but as you're watching on YouTube, you're gonna see this.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Right. So I have this mason jar here. What this mason jar represents is, it represents the things that you thought but did not say. In fact, you didn't even consider saying them, frankly. So, okay, and these are gonna be your thoughts.

• 30:05Mel Robbins?

  Each one of these little balls are the thoughts.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Each one of these balls is your thoughts, the unsaid. Okay, so, you wake up in the morning, you roll over in bed, you hug your spouse, you say, "I love you," and then you think to yourself, "Oh, I feel so crappy. I had the worst sleep."

• 30:26Speaker 01

  So you can hear, that's your first thought, feeling that you have suppressed, really. You haven't thought of it as suppression, but we're trying to bring awareness to this. And then you think, geez, I'm gonna be really, it's gonna be hard to regulate my emotions today, because when I'm sleep deprived, that's really hard. Next one in the ball, in the jar. Then you go over to the bathroom, you're standing beside your spouse, you're starting to brush your teeth, you look at yourself in the mirror, and you think, "I look fine, but I don't love the way I look." You think, you know, "I really, I really thought I would feel younger at this age. I feel older than I thought I would." Then you both go down to the kitchen. Your kids are frolicking and scampering about. And your husband or your spouse starts making their lunch for the day.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  And the spouse says to you, hey, what do you think they want? What do you think they want for snack? And you say, just give them something. Stop, just, just you pick. Spouse says, whoa. And you think, oh, my gosh, I'm just so exhausted. I just need a little bit more leeway today because I'm so tired. And I really just need a hug. And I've got this big presentation coming up, and I'm so overwhelmed. You don't say any of these things. Instead, you're now in a fight with your husband because your husband's like, what? Or your spouse, what? I'm doing something nice. You get in the car, you start driving to work. Your father calls you. You think, oh, geez, what? What's my father doing? Because you realize that he's driving. My father is driving. My father shouldn't be behind the wheel. You're like, should he be behind the wheel?

• 31:56Speaker 01

  I don't think his eyesight is good enough. I don't think he should be behind the wheel. But instead, you just say, hey, Dad, let's have, let's, let's, let's talk later when you're not driving. You get to work, your assistant says, how you doing? You say, great. What you don't say is, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I've got a big presentation today. You get into your, you get into your office. I could go on and on, right? You get into your office and your work bestie comes in. They say, how you doing? What's up, what's on tap today? You say, I got a big meeting, big presentation. I'm super excited. What you don't say is, I'm feeling anxious. Maybe we could go through the beginning together. That might help me. And on and on. And I'm already full here. And it's only 9:30. Exactly. Like, you can think of then later in the day, your boss comes, says, congrats, great job on the presentation. And you say, thanks.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  But what you could have said is, you have no idea what that means to me. I was super anxious and I crushed it. And I'm so proud of myself. And maybe you could give me more opportunities just because I love it so much. And then it's like career advancement, right? So the point here is not to, I'm not saying we should say all of these things out loud. That would be chaos. There's lots of good reasons why we withhold. We're being kind. We don't have the time to get to it. We're being strategic. You know, our assistant asks us how we're doing. We don't want to bog them down. We want a quick, easy, breezy. But our work bestie, like, we can't tell them we're feeling a little anxious? They could give you a hug. They could say, oh, I've been feeling the same way. They could, they could say so many things. Almost anything they say will be helpful.

• 33:26Mel Robbins?

  You know, what's really powerful about this example, whether you're just hearing the "pum", or you're watching all of these unsaid things pile up, is you feel how weighed down you are. And what I would love to hear is, what is the implication in terms of your energy, or your mood, or your own health, your happiness, from constantly withholding and undersharing?

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Right, so there is a lot that we know about undersharing, withholding. It's really bad for our mental and physical health. So, for example, when we keep secrets, we tend to ruminate about them, and that decreases mental focus. It literally lowers your IQ on tests when you're holding secrets. It also is associated with decreased well-being. Like, people who hold secrets, they have lower objective measures of physical health. So, there's all kinds of health issues. And I'm just getting at the, like, physical, mental health. I'm not even getting at the missed opportunities

• 34:47Speaker 01

  of what your relationship could be, and the problems you're causing by not opening up, right?

• 34:54Mel Robbins?

  Well, if we just take the example,

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:56Mel Robbins?

  Like, the missed opportunities, and what you just said is connection with the person. First thing you said, "I had a scary dream, oh my God, I'm getting..." Like, so you're missing connection and reassurance.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:06Mel Robbins?

  When you look in the mirror, and you were nice to yourself by just saying you're old. I'm normally like, "God, you look terrible."

• 35:11Speaker 01

  I don't say, I'm filtering a little bit.

• 35:13Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, but if I say to Chris...

• 35:15Speaker 01

  "I still have acne, I'm in my 40s, what's up with that?"

• 35:18Mel Robbins?

  Apparently, your hormones are still working. That's what's up with that.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:21Mel Robbins?

  But, you know, when I say to Chris, "I just feel really ugly lately." I just feel unat- he always reassures me.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:28Mel Robbins?

  And it feels like it has less of a grip on me.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:32Mel Robbins?

  In terms of work, you're missing out on getting the support that you need. And the other thing that kept really striking me, and I don't know if it really hit you as you were listening or watching to Dr. John, is how every time that ball dropped... I felt the weight of somebody feeling like everything was on their shoulders, that it was all up to them.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:55Mel Robbins?

  That nobody, that they had to figure it out on their own.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 35:59Mel Robbins?

  And it was interesting to watch that because I think that's been one of my big stories that I've been working to change, which is, oh, it's all up to me.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:09Mel Robbins?

  And a lot of that gets reinforced.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:12Mel Robbins?

  When you don't open up.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 36:14Mel Robbins?

  About what you're dealing with, or you don't open up about the emotions that you're feeling.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:19Mel Robbins?

  You just bury it and bury it and bury it and bury it.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  In fact, we, something in my household I'm working on as well, and I said to Colin, "I'm really exhausted by the number of decisions I need to make every day." Not disclosure decisions, but like snack, dah dah dah. And, and so just telling him that, he's, he, he couldn't read my mind, and now he's just making decisions. I said, "I would love for you to just make the decision. If I disagree, I'll tell you." But so that, I have a dear friend of mine who, for Mother's Day, she, she's so in tune with herself, for Mother's Day, she asked to make zero decisions. It was so awesome. Doesn't that sound so blissful? But this is also part of the point, which is that in order to do this well, you have to have self-awareness. You have to really understand what's going on in your mental state.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  And so even things like, um, like sharing your feelings and all the, the things, the, the scientific research on how opening up, whether it's to a therapist or writing it down in a journal, that is extremely therapeutic for us. It helps us process our feelings. It helps us feel better. In order to do that well, you have to have insight into your psychological state. And when I, when I started doing this, and this is why, again, I'm telling you I was a guinea pig, because if, if, like, I'm a recovering emotional illiterate, because I went, well, my therapist, I was, I don't know, I was fetching about something, and he's like, "Well, how do you feel?" And I, I was saying cognitions, you know, like, "I feel trapped," or...

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Whatever. I feel like this doesn't make sense. He's like, those are thoughts, a feeling. I'm like, then I literally asked him, what is a feeling? Like, PhD, what is a feeling? And then he handed me this thing called an emotions wheel, which I printed a version of that in the book, which I found so helpful, which helps you to really figure out what you're feeling. And if you start with a really core feeling, so for example, the way the wheel works is you start off with, you just ask yourself, the version I have in my book is like, super, for me, emotional illiterate. So it starts off with a very simple question, like thumbs up, thumbs down, positive, negative. Okay, I got that.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Then the next layer out of this circle is getting a little bit more refined, which is simply, is this an emotion that's very arousing? Like, is there a lot of energy behind it? Or is it more of a non-arousing energy, like a calm? And it turns out, there's four combinations, right? So you can have, you can have a positive that's really active, like joy, excitement. You can also have a positive emotion that's low arousal, like calm. The same is true about negative things, like anger, rage. Those are full force active, but like boredom would be something that's more. And so, and then once you get those, you can get, I won't go into deals now, but the next ring is like anger, okay, is it disappointment? Is it rage, right?

• 39:16Speaker 01

  And you can just literally like, oh, that one, that one, that one, that's me. And once you start doing this, you expand your emotional vocabulary, which helps you understand yourself better, which helps you communicate better.

• 39:27Mel Robbins?

  Well, what's helpful about that very simple construct? Am I feeling good or bad?

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 39:32Mel Robbins?

  And am I feeling like I want to do something about it? Or am I like energy? Or am I feeling low about it? That just even considering that, if you're laying in bed and you're like, I love you, honey. And then you're like, wait, I feel bad right now.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:50Mel Robbins?

  And it's like bringing me down.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:52Mel Robbins?

  That's a way to access in that like something's up. Like, I just feel really low energy today. Can you give me a hug? Now you just.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  I see what you're saying. Like, the energy can serve as a cue to help you understand, for sure.

• 40:02Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  I love that, yeah.

• 40:04Mel Robbins?

  Let's just give like a really specific takeaway. So let's say you listen to this episode or you watch it. You go home at the end of the day.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 40:13Mel Robbins?

  Your partner's like, how is your daily fine? Or what's wrong? You're like, nothing.

• 40:20Mel Robbins?

  I don't talk about it.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:21Mel Robbins?

  Do you have any kind of easy, quick ways to make yourself a little bit more open, even if you're exhausted and you don't want to talk?

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Well, so if you're exhausted and you don't want to talk, you can defer it and say, "I'm exhausted and I don't want to talk, but thank you for asking. Let me have a drink or let me have a relaxation time."

• 40:43Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, okay, great, love it.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Number one, but if you are ready to engage, you're gonna do, you're gonna do two, complete the sentence, okay? You're gonna do two. The first one, which is the most important, you're gonna say, "I feel," you're gonna complete that sentence, and then you're gonna say, "I need," and you're gonna complete that sentence. The "I feel" is even more important. Sometimes you don't know what you need, and maybe you riff a bit on what you need, but "I feel" is really crucial. It's really crucial because

• 41:14Speaker 01

  it is more vulnerable than a thought, and because it's more, and we're talking about a personal, close relationship, when we show some vulnerability, it invites care. It's also not debatable, the way a thought is. Thoughts are dictated by right and wrong and logic, and so if you say how you feel, feelings are feelings, like, they're valid. Now, it might not be as easy as it seems, because sometimes you list adjectives instead of thoughts, and we've kind of been there, that you want to really get into feelings.

• 41:46Mel Robbins?

  I think it's very easy. Like, I think this is so simple.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, okay, good, good.

• 41:49Mel Robbins?

  Because if you think about, "How was your day?" And you're like, "I feel overwhelmed."

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 41:55Mel Robbins?

  Or, "I feel proud of myself."

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:57Mel Robbins?

  "I don't even know what I need, because I'm so overwhelmed."

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:00Mel Robbins?

  Like, that's a different conversation than "fine."

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:03Mel Robbins?

  If somebody says, "What's wrong?" And you say, "I feel kind of confused about"

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:11Mel Robbins?

  "how I'm feeling right now. I don't even know what's wrong."

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know how I feel.

• 42:13Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  So maybe we should banish the word "fine." The third rule is, don't say "fine."

• 42:18Mel Robbins?

  I like it, because it's simple, and we can all take those two sentences, "I feel," "I need."

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 42:26Mel Robbins?

  And you can do that with a work colleague, too.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yes, "I feel" and "I need," and- I like "I need" too, because the reason I like "I need," it helps you get you in touch with yourself of what you need and think about what you need. And it helps to, because your partner can't read your mind, say what you need. And so, some examples may include, "I need a hug." "I need you to just listen. I don't want to fix. I just need you to listen. I need you to be on my side. I need you to help me see if I'm thinking through this the right way. I need you to help me figure out what I'm missing." Right? All kinds. "I need," you can finish that in so many different ways. I need multiple things. Yeah.

• 43:12Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, it's really simple and powerful. Dr. John, I have so many more questions that I want to ask you, but let's just pause for a second, because this part of the conversation is one of those moments where I know as you're listening or watching, you're thinking, "Oh, wait. I do that. I stay silent. I smooth it over. I tell myself it's not worth bringing up." And I don't know about you, but I'm already starting to replay a lot of what she's saying and replaying a lot of things where I'm like, "Why didn't I just say something? I mean, I thought it was being easygoing, when really, I'm just avoiding the truth.

• 43:53Mel Robbins?

  And now I'm learning the weight that that creates for you. And we don't have to live like that. So while you sit with that, text this to somebody who deserves to hear this. Text this to somebody that stays silent and you want them to be more open. And we're going to take a short break. We're going to let our sponsors shine. Do not go anywhere, because Harvard Business School professor Dr. John has so much more to teach you, including she's going to explain why saying the thing you're afraid to say builds trust, not fallout. Stay with me.

• 44:37Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. We're here today with Harvard Business School professor Dr. Leslie John, talking about the benefits and the skill of being open. All right, so Dr. John, this is where I wanted to go next. You know, you hear a lot in the news right now about loneliness.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 44:57Mel Robbins?

  And how does just kind of having these surface-level interactions of people and not really opening up about anything, or not being curious about the people in your life, such that you're wanting them to open up? Like, how is that contributing to the disconnection that you're feeling?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think that surface-level connections, surface-level interactions give this illusion of connection because they have all the trappings of real connection, right? Like, they've got the smiling, even if it's little force. They've got the eye contact, the shared experience. So they've got a lot of that trapping. But without the social risk, which is opening up a little bit, they, these types of superficial interactions, they end up making you feel, especially this introvert, socially full but emotionally malnourished, right?

• 45:57Mel Robbins?

  Oh, that's an interesting distinction. So your cup is full. I've had enough. I need to go home.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, stimulation, too much for me.

• 46:03Mel Robbins?

  But you actually don't feel anything.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 46:07Mel Robbins?

  Oh, I love, so the stimulation of it versus the actual richness of the connection.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so then the question becomes, well, how do you do it?

• 46:16Mel Robbins?

  I don't know. What do we do?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Right, what do we do? Okay, so in general, I would say you want to go, so you're not going to say, so imagine you're watching your kids play soccer. You're not going to all of a sudden go deep randomly, out of the blue. Like, that's not what we're doing. What you're going to do is you're going to go, you're, think of it as going one layer deeper than what you ordinarily would.

• 46:39Mel Robbins?

  Okay, give us the sentence. So what do you do?

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Right, so now let's break it down even more.

• 46:43Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  So what you can do is... Instead of thinking, as we're on the, watching our kids, instead of commenting on what is happening or what, what happens, like, oh, they're having so much fun.

• 46:55Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Try to think about, a cue is to think about, what does that mean to you? So for example, you could say, oh, look at our kids, they're having so much fun. You know, I don't even remember the last time I laughed that hard. When, when did you last laugh really hard, like a good belly laugh? And that does two things. So that's, that's getting it interesting and deep right away. It's also staying pretty positive, right? We're not getting into like, when's the last time you cried? We're not getting dark, but we're prompting some reflection. And this is like ninja level. I did another thing, I'm flattering myself. I'm really, I'm taking one of my best friend, Alison Wood Brooks's, who's, who's been on your show. One of her fundamental findings, which is we don't ask enough questions.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  So you wanna say this kind of, what it means to you? When's the last time I, I laughed that hard? And then the great thing here is you're passing the torch. Oftentimes, people naturally reciprocate and they'll say, oh yeah, me too. I, I, but if they don't, you can prompt it by saying, when's the last time you had a great laugh? And then, then you're off to the rest. And you don't need, you're not trying to get for a deep friendship, but you're like, this will be a fun, meaningful conversation. It's not just small talk.

• 48:03Mel Robbins?

  Well, it's true, because I think most of us, I put myself in that kind of scene. It's like, oh, it's a beautiful day.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:10Mel Robbins?

  You know, oh, how are your kids doing?

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:12Mel Robbins?

  Oh, you know what, what are you, you know, like, what are you doing this weekend? Like, it's, it's just all this stuff right here. So look at what's happening and think about what it's triggering in you. And then turn and reveal.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:25Mel Robbins?

  And then ask someone's last time you felt like that.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 48:28Mel Robbins?

  Like, I, I immediately thought about the fact that, oh, watching your kids, it made me, you know, I, I ran track in high school. I really miss being on a team. Did you play team sports?

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 48:36Mel Robbins?

  Yeah. I got it. Wow. I want to read to you from your book, Revealing, this is page 85. "Research speaks to wide-ranging tolls of concealment. For example, the more frequently people think about their secrets, the more likely they are to experience feelings of inauthenticity, lower relationship satisfaction, and even worse physical health outcomes." Talk about the cost of

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:06Mel Robbins?

  secrets.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, so I think the main issue with secrets is they are really preoccupying. They really, we think they're inert, we think they're neutral, but they really, really sneak up on us in occupying our psyche.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  And one of the tricky things with secrets is that they represent kind of an unresolved loop in your mind, because if you have a secret, you kind of haven't really resolved, you're constantly monitoring, should I say, should I not? And it's like you're kind of perpetually ruminating over this disclosure decision, essentially. I'm not saying we should reveal all our secrets. Some secrets are important to be kept.

• 49:53Mel Robbins?

  I want to dig into this, only because I feel like they're, in the context of your research, there's a difference between saying, this information is private.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 50:05Mel Robbins?

  I'm not ashamed of it.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 50:06Mel Robbins?

  I am just, I have boundaries with who is going to know this information and who's not, but I'm not holding this information over my own head.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:16Mel Robbins?

  Secrets feels like something that you, use the word unresolved looped in my mind, that you are holding over your own head and that you're wrestling with. So a secret, an example might be that you have fallen out of love with somebody, and that you don't know how to tell them.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 50:33Mel Robbins?

  And you have this secret that you are planning on breaking up with this person, but you don't know how.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  I had that.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, it's so hard.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  And it's so hard, I think that you hit the nail on the head, though. Like, being private, having boundaries is one thing. And the difference there is that you've made a decision that this is my boundary. With a secret, it's unresolved. Like, in that case of like, you really need to tell this person somehow, because it's not good for either of you. But how? And that's, I think, a lot of the case with secrets.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Most all the time, it's not a question of whether to reveal, but it's a question of how, to whom and when. Because even if it's just you writing in a journal that secret, that is gonna make you, that is gonna help you feel better. It's gonna, it's gonna remove this rumination. It'll resolve it in certain ways because there's actually really interesting processes that go on in the brain when you reveal to yourself on paper or out loud. So, so somehow it's got to be revealed.

• 51:43Mel Robbins?

  And you said how, to whom and when.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:46Mel Robbins?

  Now, can you talk though about how the research shows that when you're open about feelings, it's, can be more persuasive than making a logical argument, even at work.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:59Mel Robbins?

  Like, why do people listen more or care more when your emotions are involved?

• 52:04Speaker 01

  I know, we think emotions, ah, they're the filler. But emotions are information and they're really credible. They're really credible because they're hard to fake. So, they also are riskier than sharing thoughts, which also makes them credible because you really mean it if you're willing to take the risk to share some emotion. Oftentimes, the answer is reveal. So, reveal why you're crying. Say, tie it to your passion for your job. I am crying because I care so much about the stakeholders of this company that we better get this right.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  You know, so linking it to passion then can make it more compelling instead of being, especially like with women, gender, we worry about that too. Like, oh, she's just so emotional. So, if you're able to do that, then it's, it can be quite powerful. But, but you, of course, you know, you have to be careful because it is a tricky, it is a very tricky thing. But I, you know, I've had, I've had my own experiences ugly crying and I had a, I don't know if you want me to tell the story, but I had a...

• 53:20Speaker 01

  When I was a baby academic, I gave a talk at a very fancy university, which has a reputation for being very tough on speakers. Read a-holes to speakers. And they were asking me difficult questions, which I expect, which is good science. But what was bothering me was that they were asking them in a belligerent, rude way. Right? And, and interrupting me. So they were, they were being rude. And finally, I just couldn't hold back anymore. And I just, you know, I was trying, like, I was smart to try to not cry, right? These are people, I'm a baby academic, they're in charge of my fate, because they're gonna like write me letters to say if I'm any good when I'm out for promotion. So I was really trying, but I just couldn't, I couldn't. So I'm just full-on ugly crying, full-on ugly.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  On stage? So, yeah, in front of, like, there's like 30 people, senior academics at this university. And I'm, it's not, I write about it in the book. And I always, in the book, I say, this sounds more composed than it was. You have to remember that the sound effects are right, like, as I'm, but, so I start bawling. And then I think to myself, I'm like, they need to know why I'm crying. Because otherwise, they're gonna think that I'm just like, I can't take hard scientific questions. And so I stopped and I said, I'm stopping, Sean. Because I need to tell you why I'm crying. I'm crying, I'm not crying because you're asking me hard questions. I'm crying because you're being belligerent. I'm crying because you're being rude.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  And I didn't stop there, which I maybe should have. But I was like, okay, I've lit this thing on fire, so why not? And, you know, you, I might have even pointed a finger. You may not know this, because you, all you see is the way you are, but you know you have a reputation. It's not okay and it has to stop. What happened? Well, so then they, they, they were quiet the rest of the time. They were scared of me. I did get a few apologies afterwards. And then, well, first of all,

• 55:22Speaker 01

  It was not career suicide that I thought it would be. In fact, one of the faculty who was there later revealed to me, you know, 10 years later, that he wrote a really great supportive letter for my promotion. And the other thing, though, that I thought was really cool about it, other than the mortal humiliation, was that a couple of friends who went there a few weeks later, they were actually reasonable to them. And so I thought, maybe, maybe I helped just a little bit. And this is related to something, I wouldn't call this exactly that, but something I call a catalyst confession. So the catalyst confession is when someone who is in a leadership position comes out

• 56:07Speaker 01

  and says something really bold, like Magic Johnson. In the 90s, he came out and said, "I'm HIV positive." And at the time, this was the gay disease. This was highly stigmatizing. And he really, really shaped the conversation in a positive way. In fact, there have been studies that have looked at, like, kind of pre-post his announcement, and it was concluded that he probably caused about 900 additional people to get tested. So I think the opportunity for revealing in leadership, yes, at the micro level, you can get feedback. We can also talk about how you can, you know, gain more influence. But I think the real magic of it, speaking of Magic Johnson, is in the ability to, like,

• 56:50Speaker 01

  use your position to, like, de-stigmatize and to really, that's real leadership in my book.

• 56:56Mel Robbins?

  You know, I, it's interesting that you call that story humiliating, because it may have felt that way, but from the outside hearing it, it sounds courageous and liberating, because you called them out.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Well, so-

• 57:10Mel Robbins?

  The distinction is you saying, "This is why," and it's not because of me.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  It felt-

• 57:15Mel Robbins?

  It's because of you.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 57:17Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, and it's clear that change did happen. And I love that you brought in the fact that you have a reputation for doing this.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:22Mel Robbins?

  And it has to stop. So, Dr. John, I want you to speak directly to the person that's here listening or watching right now. If they take one action- Based on everything that you have shared with us today, what is the most important thing to do?

• 57:38Speaker 01

  It is to share your feelings. And now that you've listened to this podcast, you know I'm not being trite. You know that there's a lot of heft in that. Feelings are data. Feelings are really, really valuable information.

• 57:53Mel Robbins?

  Dr. Leslie John, what are your parting words?

• 57:55Speaker 01

  There's a study by a Cornell psychologist, Tom Gilovich. He's looked at the things that people regret in life. And he's found that 76% of the things that people regret in life are the things they did not do. The things they didn't say. Then there's research by a palliative care nurse by the name of Bronnie Ware. She has spent many, many hours with people on their deathbeds. And she wrote a book chronicling what are the things that they tend to regret. The number three regret, the number three most common regret of people that are dying is, I wish I had shared my feelings more.

• 58:37Mel Robbins?

  Share your feelings.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:38Mel Robbins?

  Share, be more open.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:40Mel Robbins?

  And honest.

• 58:42Mel Robbins?

  I am so excited that you are here in Boston, Professor and Dr. Leslie John. Thank you, thank you, thank you for coming across the river and being here and sharing everything that you did today.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. Thank you for listening.

• 58:59Mel Robbins?

  I am so excited to see what you do with this conversation, who you share with. Actually, sharing this episode with somebody that you want to be more connected to is a way that you can be more open. I listened to this. I learned a lot about myself. I want to connect deeply with you. Let's take a listen. Let's talk about it. I can't wait to hear what you thought and how you're going to apply this. And because Dr. John said that we should do one thing, which is start by sharing our feelings, I'm going to share my feelings with you. As your friend, I want to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And if you ask yourself, what might I be missing out on by not revealing, by not sharing, by not being open?

• 59:44Mel Robbins?

  When you really consider what you're missing out on, I know that you will create a better life by being more open and by being more curious with the people that you deeply care about. And now you have the research and the roadmap to go do it. Alrighty, I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. We are in the middle of a loneliness ec- But today's guest? But today's? But today's guest? Who is a Harvard Business School professor who stu- Who studies what the? Which will completely change- Which completely changed how I think about silence?

• 1:00:27Mel Robbins?

  So without further ado, help me welcome- Oh, sorry. So without further ado- Because this conversation is only going to get more powerful. Oh, my God. We're here today talking about the idea that you're- We're here today- Fantastic.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Okay. Excellent job. Excellent.

• 1:00:47Mel Robbins?

  You did dynamite. How do you feel?

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Thank you. Great. Thank you. You guys are such pros.

• 1:00:52Mel Robbins?

  Well, you did dynamite.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  It was so fun. It's so rewarding.

• 1:00:59Mel Robbins?

  Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 1:01:41Mel Robbins?

  This segment is sponsored by Expedia. Tell me if this sounds familiar. You decide, okay, that's it. I'm taking a vacation. And then you hop online to book it and suddenly, oh, my gosh, you have so many tabs open. And it's so overwhelming that now you feel like you need a vacation from trying to book a vacation. That's what makes Expedia so great. It is your one stop shop where every single detail of your vacation is organized in one reliable, easy to use place. Flights, hotels, rental cars, activities, and things to do, everything in one place. Expedia makes vacation planning easy so you can focus on what matters,

• 1:02:26Mel Robbins?

  enjoying yourself. And as your friend, I want you to enjoy yourself. I love to travel. Some of my favorite memories go all the way back to these little trips that I took with my parents and my brother as a kid. On the Let Them Tour this year, I got to visit Australia and New Zealand for the very first time in my life. I'm 57. Both countries, all the people we met, pure magic. I even got to feed a giraffe, which has been on my bucket list forever. Travel makes you feel alive. And I'm not just talking about flying halfway around the world, just traveling to a quick weekend getaway, seeing something new, exploring a neighboring town. It all counts as travel.

• 1:03:11Mel Robbins?

  In fact, there are three research-backed reasons why travel is one of the most important things you can do for yourself and your happiness and your health. And I want to break them down for you. So let's just start with reason number one, why you need to travel more. It adds more meaning to your life. In fact, one of the biggest regrets that people have near the end of their life is that they didn't travel more. We had Dr. Carl Pilimer on the Mel Robbins Podcast not long ago. He's a professor at Cornell. And he's interviewed thousands of people in their 80s, 90s, and hundreds about what really matters in life, what makes life meaningful. And there's a theme that he has heard in this

• 1:03:53Mel Robbins?

  study over and over and over again. At the end of their lives, people regret not taking the trip. Dr. Pillimer said it perfectly when he was on this podcast. Life is incredibly short. Stop waiting. Book the trip. That's reason number one. The second reason that travel is one of the best things that you can do, it is so good for your brain. Seeing new sights, hearing new sounds, trying new foods, walking new streets. It's a workout for your mind. Your mind loves experiencing new things. And then if you noticed, every time you travel, what happens? You come home clearer, more creative, better able to solve

• 1:04:33Mel Robbins?

  problems, and ready to adapt to whatever life throws you. See, when your brain is making new connections, you become this upgraded version of yourself, and that happens when you travel. And the final reason that travel is one of the best things that you can do for yourself, and this one might be my favorite, just planning the trip can make you happier right now. That means that you will feel the benefits of a future vacation starting today. When you give yourself something to look forward to, you put a little spark of excitement into your life right now, long before you're going to pack your bags. I want to give a big shout out again to Expedia for sponsoring this segment and reminding

• 1:05:18Mel Robbins?

  you how important travel is in your life. And if you're ready to start planning your next trip, Expedia makes it so simple. You can book flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, and activities all in one place. You can book everything together at once, or book your flight now and figure out the rest later, and still save up to 30%. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Members only. Savings vary. See site for details.