Episode 419: Vanessa Van Edwards: The Power of Body Language and Charisma for Effective Communication

Have you ever wondered what makes someone truly charismatic? In this episode of the Habits and Hustle podcast, I talk with Vanessa Van Edwards, a behavioral investigator and author, who shares fascinating insights into the science of charisma. We discuss valuable insights on how to master the subtle yet powerful cues that impact our interactions with others and the science behind oxytocin and connection. We also dive into practical tips on everything from crafting the perfect handshake to harnessing the power of vocal tone and body language in various contexts, including video calls and digital communication, to ultimately lead to greater success and confidence in all aspects of life. Vanessa Van Edwards is the bestselling author of "Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People" and "Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication," which have been translated into 17 languages. As a renowned behavioral investigator, she shares science-backed skills to improve interpersonal communication and leadership through her engaging workshops, courses, and popular YouTube tutorials, which have garnered over 50 million views. What We Discuss: 02:06 The importance of warmth and competence in charisma 04:31 Balancing warmth and competence cues 16:08 Tips for video calls and virtual communication 18:29 The science behind oxytocin and connection 22:58 Handshake styles and what they convey 27:29 Primal instincts in physical greetings 30:57 Personal space zones and intimacy 34:37 The power of gestures in communication 39:16 Vocal cues and the "TED talk voice" 48:00 The impact of genuine vs. fake smiles 51:12 Power posing and confident body language 54:07 Cues in digital communication (email and texting) …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: AquaTru: Get 20% off any purifier at aquatru.com http://aquatru.com/ with code HUSTLE Therasage: Head over to therasage.com http://therasage.com/ and use code Be Bold for 15% off TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com http://truniagen.com/ and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www http://www/.magicmind.com http://magicmind.com//jen and use code Jen at checkout. Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com http://airdoctorpro.com/ and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Vanessa Van Edwards: Website: https://www.scienceofpeople.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vvanedwards/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, this is Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:07Jen Cohen?

  Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor Therasage. Their Trillight Panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammation in places in my body where honestly, I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for.

• 0:49Jen Cohen?

  I personally use Therasage Trillight everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to therasage.com right now and use code BBOULDS for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to therasage, T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E.com and use code BBOULDS for 15% off any of their products.

• 1:29Jen Cohen?

  Guys, I'm so excited about this podcast. Today, we had Vanessa Van Edwards, who I'm a huge fan of. Vanessa, I've been watching Vanessa's videos on YouTube forever. She is a behavioral investigator and she started a company called The Science of People. She's also a major bestselling author. Her first book is called Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People. She's also a body language trainer and she specializes in science-based people skills. Her latest book is called Cues, which was amazing. And it is for anybody and everyone who wants to either read other people or really activate their strengths and make sure they're bringing them forward. She talks about what makes somebody charismatic, what makes somebody likeable,

• 2:13Jen Cohen?

  how do you win over anybody or influence somebody just by how you move, what you say, like how you say it. It's just, I can go on and on, but I don't want to, I'm basically like butchering this. But trust me, listen to the podcast. You're going to get so much out of it. Enjoy. On today's episode, we have Vanessa Van Edwards, who I was, I am like, just like, just smiling from like, from like, I'm grinning from ear to ear. Because you guys, I have been waiting for this interview for, for months. Her information is so amazing. She wrote a book called Cues. Her other book was called Captivate.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Like the C words.

• 2:51Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, you really do.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Confidence, charisma, cues, captivate.

• 2:55Jen Cohen?

  Why is that?

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Hmm, I don't know. Just such, this is so good, such good words.

• 2:58Jen Cohen?

  They are good words and you could talk, we could talk all about that.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:01Jen Cohen?

  You're like, she is an expert on body language, on, on communication. And this new book is called Master the Secret, Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. She talks all about signals and how to have the most impact in meetings and first impressions. Doesn't matter if you're just someone who's dating, or if you are someone who is a professional. You can literally glean anything and everything from your work.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:28Jen Cohen?

  I'm excited to have you.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  I'm so happy to be here. I've been waiting for months too. So like, I can't wait.

• 3:34Jen Cohen?

  Come on, you're just saying that.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  I cleared my day. I was like, it's Jennifer day.

• 3:40Jen Cohen?

  Look how good you are.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Look how good you are.

• 3:42Jen Cohen?

  This is my day. See, you know, you know how to make a great first impression.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  I better. I wrote a book about it.

• 3:48Jen Cohen?

  More than one book and you, you crush these, these books crush. No, like I said, practical information.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  I, I think that what's really helpful is a lot of the communication books. I'm an awkward person, right? Like I'm somewhere in between introvert and extrovert. I'm an ambivert and so many of the books that I read growing up or guides I saw were written by extroverts. And I just felt so like, I, I had to pretend to be outgoing to make a good first impression. And so for so long, I felt like I was faking it till I made it, made it, made it.

• 4:18Jen Cohen?

  Made it.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Made it.

• 4:19Jen Cohen?

  Made it.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  I didn't make, I didn't made it. So.

• 4:21Jen Cohen?

  Fake it till you made it.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  I almost made it, you know? I was like, pretending to be something I wasn't and it was exhausting. And so I so appreciate you saying that about the books because the books are the guides that I wish I had had. Very practical, a little funny. Like sometimes I just, I try a few jokes on there. And also like, what's the science say? Like not someone's opinion, but what's the science actually say?

• 4:41Jen Cohen?

  I should say, so what Vanessa's title is, it's called, she's called a behavioral investigator.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 4:47Jen Cohen?

  And she just studies people's behavior and also helps people with how to cue better to get what they want, right?

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:56Jen Cohen?

  Uh, and I heard on a couple of interviews, you were kind of nervous about even putting the book out because it could be used as manipulation.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Yes. So like, there's this hidden language that's happening. We don't realize it's happening, but we are constantly sending signals back and forth. And so as I realized, I have a very weird problem where I misinterpret neutral cues as negative. And there's actually research behind this that some say that if you're neurotic, I'm high in neuroticism, which is one of the

• 5:22Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  High personality traits. So I worry um as a hobby, you know, like I'm, it's like one of my sports.

• 5:26Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Um, and so like I just love to worry. And so because of that, I have this lens, this negative lens that I was missing all these cues. And so when I first started writing about them, it was just, let me catalog the cues that are being sent to me. So I stopped misinterpreting them. So I stopped every time I would leave a party, I would turn to my husband and be like, she's mad at me. He'd be like, she, what? I'm like, she, she's so mad at me. He's like, no, she's not mad at you. I'm like, did you see the way that she looked at me? He's like, no. And so I realized I had to create some sort of a glossary for myself to stop seeing people in that way. The problem is, other people will use that, that information negatively. And so I was so scared that when I put the book out,

• 6:09Speaker 02

  that people would say, oh, I'm going to manipulate people with these cues. And unfortunately, they are very powerful. Like they can be used them.

• 6:15Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  And that made me very nervous, but I thought, you know what? I'd rather have the information out there to be used for good. And hopefully then we can have a common language where we can say, that's the cue that you're sending and I either like it or I don't.

• 6:27Jen Cohen?

  Well, think about like, uh, Robert Greene's, uh,

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Forty Eight Laws.

• 6:30Jen Cohen?

  Laws of Power, right?

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:32Jen Cohen?

  Um, it could be, it can kind of be considered the same kind of thing, right? Like how to get power over people. There could be a negative connotation to it, but I actually think, you know, and I'm close friends with Robert and I love that book. It was, it's a, it's a hu, it's a monster book, right?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:46Jen Cohen?

  And it could be used for good and for bad.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Okay. Fun fact, this is a really creepy weird fact.

• 6:51Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  But you know, the classic book, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

• 6:55Jen Cohen?

  Dale Carnegie.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  So that book has helped millions of people, right? Like people still read it. I read it when I was a teenager.

• 7:01Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, me too.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Fun fact is that Charles Manson read that book in prison and used it to build his cult later.

• 7:10Jen Cohen?

  No way.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  In one of his early prison stints, before he did the really bad stuff, because he did little bad stuff. He read that book and he took a class that was being offered in prisons on the Dale Carnegie method for how to win friends and influence people. And that is exactly what he used to build his cult later. So.

• 7:27Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Things really, if you know how people work, and that's really what it is, is there's these hidden dynamics of people. And there are laws, right? There's forty eight laws of power. There are ninety six behavior cues. If you learn what they are, you can use them in any way that you wish.

• 7:41Jen Cohen?

  Absolutely. And that, and that's why I'm fascinated by all this information.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  I love it so much.

• 7:46Jen Cohen?

  I'm fascinated by, by human behavior in general, like why people do what they do. Um, and how, and also like why, why I, why I'm doing, how I, what I'm doing and how it could be misinterpreted. You know, and a lot of times I'm misinterpreted, right? So that's why I found that book, this book very, to your point, very resonated. Because people can think I'm very, I'm being bitchy, I'm being hard, I'm being cold, I'm being this, but it's just what I'm doing, right?

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Like, so, oh, so it's interesting. So I have the problem where I think I misinterpret cues being sent to me. Do you worry that people misinterpret the cues you're sending to them?

• 8:21Jen Cohen?

  I don't worry about it. I just think, I, I don't really care that much, but I don't.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  I don't care what people think.

• 8:27Jen Cohen?

  I don't care what people think. I, I, I don't really care. I'm just being honest.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  For you, that's the truth.

• 8:32Jen Cohen?

  I mean, that's a whole other problem. Maybe I'm a sociopath. I, that's not really what it is. I feel like I'm sometimes very direct and very to the point. And I don't, I don't like to mince a lot of words a lot of times, and that can be sometimes seen as.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  So, so the way that we break it down, which is like, I think this is the most important thing, which you know I love, is we think of people as two. Basic traits, warm and competent. And so if you're direct, if you speak right to the point, if you have really direct nonverbal cues, so lots of eye contact, lots of head movement, very clear gestures, people see you as highly competent. That's great. The problem is, is competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious or leaves people feeling intimidated. That is directly from the research. The people who are off the charts incompetence, people go, ah, there's not enough warmth. I don't know if they like me. I don't know if they're friendly.

• 9:29Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  And so without warmth, people don't always believe your competence, but they can't digest your competence. And so you're right in that sense of like, am I being too direct? Is that going to turn someone off? It's simply because you're just lacking the warmth. It's like a lubricant. That warmth lubricant is a lubricant for competence.

• 9:45Jen Cohen?

  Well, that's interesting because, um, and not to make, this is not about me, this is.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Oh, I, but let's take it about you.

• 9:51Jen Cohen?

  No, it's not about, because I mean, that the other thing a lot of times, and I think let's, I want to first talk about, I'll, I'll bring this up in a second. I'm going to hold my thought.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 10:00Jen Cohen?

  I want you to first, let's talk about charisma because charisma is a combination, right? Um, you said warmth and competence and having that perfect blend.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Perfect blend. And so 82%, that is a massive number. 82% of our judgments of people are based on those two traits, which is shocking to me because when you ask, and I've asked audiences, how do you want to come across? Name your perfect first impression. Hundreds of words. Outgoing, funny, smart, witty, impressive, memorable, all the words you could think of. But actually, when it comes down to it, the only two words that make up 82% of our judgments are warmth, friendliness, likability, openness and competence, capable, powerful, efficient. In that way, when we meet someone, we are very quickly trying to answer two questions. And in your interactions, if you can quickly answer these two questions, your whole interaction will be better.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Doesn't matter if it's a date or negotiation interview, which is, can I trust you? And can I rely on you? And we are looking to people to see, can I trust you? Can I rely on you? And that's when we have a good date. That's when we have a good interview. That's when we want to work with someone or be friends with them or talk to someone. That's what we're looking for is just the answer to those two questions.

• 11:08Jen Cohen?

  So what happens if you have too much warmth and and not enough competence?

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Yes, love it. So let's talk about the two imbalances, right? So the reason why charismatic people are so magnetic that we're like drawn to them is because they have the perfect balance. The moment we get out of balance, out of whack, like let's say you said too high in warmth. Okay, people who are sending lots of warmth cues, they're seen as friendly, trustworthy, likable, compassionate, but not that smart, not that capable, not that powerful. They're often interrupted. So highly warm people have this problem where people always come to them for their life, for like advice in their life story, like highly warm people are constantly sitting in the corner of the room and someone's like verbal vomiting all over them. That is a highly warm person because they are sending off signals of open to me, open up to me, tell me everything.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  So people constantly seek them out and verbal vomit all over them, but don't take them seriously. Forget having met them before, forget their names. So highly warm people are super liked in the office, but when they want to get a raise or promotion, they're looked over.

• 12:09Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Highly warm people are, yeah, she's nice, but they wouldn't have you on their team. They wouldn't buy from you. They wouldn't come to you for really important advice. Highly warm people also struggle with being people pleasers. And that's because highly warm people, the reason they're sending those cues, like from a psychological perspective, is there's two desires that we have as humans, to be liked and to be respected. People who are highly warm have been taught, whether that's socially or from their parents, that being liked is more important than being respected. And so what can happen is they say yes too much, they over commit. And so people, highly warm people, I always joke that if you have a highly warm friend, you know, you have a highly warm friend, if they always say yes, then cancel at the last minute.

• 12:53Jen Cohen?

  That's actually me.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  And that is because highly warm people, in the moment, they want to please you.

• 13:00Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  They really want you to like them. They want to seem open and likable. So like, of course, and in the moment, they mean it. But then real life hits, third home and they're like, I can't do it. I gotta stay home and watch Netflix. I cannot put on a pair of pants. There's no way that's gonna happen.

• 13:14Jen Cohen?

  Exactly.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  So that's highly warm, right? Superpowers, they have superpowers, collaboration, being supporters, being open, being liked. Their weaknesses, they're not taken seriously, they're overlooked, they're underestimated, they're doubted, they're dismissed. Right, that's their problem. Highly competent folks, on the other hand, highly competent folks are always seen as impressive. They're seen as smart, they're seen as powerful. But what can happen is because they're constantly sending out competence cues. People think, ooh, she's intimidating. I can't open up to her. She's cold.

• 13:45Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  And so this is what the research shows is that competence without warmth leaves us feeling suspicious.

• 13:50Jen Cohen?

  Now, I guess my question is, could you be one in certain, in certain environments and another in another environment?

• 13:57Speaker 02

  So this is the advanced, right? So actually, very highly charismatic people use their warmth and competence like a thermostat or like a dial. So when they're around really warm people, they dial up their warmth cues, right? They send a couple more warmth cues when they're at happy hours, when they're socializing, when they're schmoozies. When they're with a VIP that like, oh, this VIP, I want to be a little warmer with him. I want to get into their, and get into their good side. They dial up warmth. They also oftentimes we default to higher in warmth around our families, around our friends. Maybe we dial up a little bit in competence in business situations.

• 14:27Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  So yes, that's actually, that's where the magic is. Is that not only can we be different in different situations, that we can actually control it. And that's my other favorite C word. I love control. Oh, man, boy, boy, do I love control. So as a social warrior, right, I socially overthink, I lay in bed at the end of the night and replay every conversation. What the antidote to that for me has been control. So what would happen is when my anxiety, my awkwardness, I would, what should I do with my hands? What cues should I send? How will they take me serious? And then I would replay. Now I have 96 cues to choose from. So I know exactly what cues I want to send. I know exactly what cues are being sent to me. And so the way that we can take controls, we say, okay, in this situation, I want warmth. I'm dialing up the warmth. In this situation, I'm going to hit them with competence.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Or I know why they see me as cold and I'm okay with it.

• 15:16Jen Cohen?

  Right. That's what I like about this book and your book, your, your content. Is because you don't have to be a naturally emotionally highly intelligent person.

• 15:26Jen Cohen?

  To to to get these things. So I I might, I I was gonna say to you, I think that there are people who are naturally more gifted than others

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:36Jen Cohen?

  in picking up these social cues.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:38Jen Cohen?

  And to be like, okay, I gotta dial, I gotta dial in that warmth. I gotta like, take it back a bit. But the majority of people do need help in these search, because they walk away, kind of like, well, why did, why did that interview go badly? Or why did that date go badly?

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Why did I get a no?

• 15:51Jen Cohen?

  Or why did I get a no? Right?

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 15:53Jen Cohen?

  And so if you have the tools and the information to understand more, it is so powerful.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, it's so empowering.

• 16:02Jen Cohen?

  Empower, exactly. It's so empowering.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  And I also like, what we don't realize, and this is what gets me excited about this.

• 16:07Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Is our cues are contagious. So it's not just you being in control of your cues lets you show up how you want to show up. That's one part of the equation.

• 16:17Jen Cohen?

  Yep.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  The second, more exciting part of the car, the equation for me is if you show up more warm and more competent, you trigger other people's warmth and competence. So if I'm with my team, if I'm with my family, if I'm with my friends and I'm showcasing very purposefully in control warmth and competence, they are catching that warmth and competence. That if we show up as our most charismatic self, that is the single best way to make everyone around us be their most charismatic self.

• 16:44Jen Cohen?

  And also to to to add on to that, so in order to be successful, to to be successful, it's not about being the most competent or being the most warm. It's about really having that real, perfect blend. So you don't have to be the smartest. You just have to have enough charisma or have the the blend of charisma to get your goal done.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. And also, there's one last area that we haven't talked about.

• 17:10Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Which is, you mentioned smart people, being the smartest person. This is the problem, I think, that smart people make.

• 17:16Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Smart people are smart. They rely on their really good ideas and they think, I have a great idea. I'm really smart. That's enough. As they show up to pitches, they show up to meetings and they're like, why aren't people getting my ideas? And again, the research proves you can have the smartest idea in the world. But if you're not lubricating it with warmth, people cannot believe it. So what will happen is smart people, they double down on competence. And that doesn't work and they wonder what is happening? So then they go sterile. And that's the last area that we are trying to fight against. There's a lot of really powerful, smart people don't know what to do with their cues. So they under cue. They under signal. So you'll notice that now, especially in the last five years. It feels like people have decided stoic is good.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Being unreadable is good. Well, I don't know what cues to send. I don't know how to be warm confidence. So I'm going to send no cues at all. And so what's happening is we're getting on video calls. We're watching presentations with people who are like robots. They have, they're trying to conceal their facial expressions. They're trying to conceal their body. They try to be as unreadable as possible. The problem is muting, going mute is in itself a cue.

• 18:27Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  So if you go mute, you actually look a lot like a liar. Liars often go mute because they're trying to not give away the truth. And so what's happening is this muting, this under signaling is actually backfiring.

• 18:40Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Smart people.

• 18:41Jen Cohen?

  So then that's, that's, that's a great segue into how to cue properly. Right? So now I feel everybody's on Zoom more than ever. Right? These video calls or emailing, they're not really. So can you give some good tips and good cues? How to be, how to kind of rock the, the video conference?

• 19:03Speaker 02

  And not, your cues on video call matter more than, more than ever, because you actually, other things are taken away. And I was, felt very fortunate with the timing. So I signed the book deal for cues in June of 2020.

• 19:14Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  And I was writing cues all through 2020, 2021. So I was hyper aware of video. If it had only been a few months earlier, I think I would have been less aware of video.

• 19:23Jen Cohen?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  So a lot of the research we did for cues was on video because we couldn't do it in person.

• 19:28Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  So for example, I'll give you one example. So I partnered with Dr. Paul Zach. Doctor Paul Zach is an incredible researcher. He's kind of the oxytocin guy. If you've ever heard of oxytocin, the chemical connection, the chemical of love. He's the guy who's been researching it for the last 20, 30.

• 19:44Jen Cohen?

  Oh, wow.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's the one who kind of discovered that you can bottle oxytocin and you can give people nose sprays. Full of oxytocin.

• 19:52Jen Cohen?

  Did you wear a necklace or something that was an oxytocin necklace?

• 19:54Speaker 02

  I did. I have an oxytocin necklace.

• 19:56Jen Cohen?

  Can you, where do you buy them?

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Etsy. Etsy.

• 20:00Jen Cohen?

  Is it a real thing?

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Yes, I got a gold oxytocin necklace and I wear it instead of a heart. Cause you know, if we're talking about a real connection, it's oxytocin, not a heart. Yes, I wear it.

• 20:09Jen Cohen?

  Oh.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  I wish I was wearing it.

• 20:10Jen Cohen?

  How does it work?

• 20:11Speaker 02

  So the way that oxytocin works, it does a lot of things in our body. So remember that.

• 20:15Jen Cohen?

  But if you wear it, you don't like, how does that?

• 20:17Speaker 02

  Well, I wish it, I wish it actually triggered oxytocin, but when you look at it, it makes me feel good.

• 20:21Jen Cohen?

  Oh, okay.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Actually, the only way that we produce oxytocin is eye contact.

• 20:26Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Touch and me too moments, like moments where we're like, oh, me too. That makes us feel that warm and fuzzy, like belonging.

• 20:33Jen Cohen?

  And connect and like connection.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Oh, I trust this person. I'm on the same page with this person. Like that's why we're always like, oh, where'd you go to school? Who do you know? Because the moment you have a tie, you're like oxytocin.

• 20:43Jen Cohen?

  Or dopamine. Isn't that like a dopamine hit?

• 20:45Speaker 02

  So dopamine, so oxytocin is a chemical of connection. It makes us feel trusting. It makes us feel the warm and fuzzies. Dopamine is the chemical of excitement and motivation. Dopamine makes us want to do things. So dopamine is like, I have a present for you. That's dopamine. Oxytocin is me too. Like slightly different. So dopamine is like a motivating chemical. It makes you want to do, it makes you want to achieve. It makes you want to succeed. Dopamine helps beat burnout.

• 21:12Jen Cohen?

  Got it.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Oxytocin helps build rapport.

• 21:15Jen Cohen?

  Got it.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  They're slightly different, right?

• 21:17Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  So, um, so I partnered with Dr. Paul Zach, who I've been friends with for years. And I, I said to him, I'm worried. I'm literally writing the book on cues and there's a whole cue on touch. And I'm like, Dr. Zach, like, what are we gonna do? In a world without touch where we're on a video call, there's no handshake, there's no cheek kiss, like there's no, there's no oxytocin creators.

• 21:36Jen Cohen?

  Rapport built.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Yes. And, and oxytocin is created by touch primarily. So he said, let's test it.

• 21:43Jen Cohen?

  I didn't touch you and I feel oxytocin with you.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Well, we are making eye contact. We have lots of me too moments.

• 21:48Jen Cohen?

  That's right. Okay.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  So it's not the only way.

• 21:51Jen Cohen?

  It's his primary way.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  It's the pri, it's the fastest way. That is why we're so inclined upon first meeting to handshake or high five or cheek kisses because we want to seal the deal, kind of chemically. Um, so I asked him, what do we do? Like we're, we're in this environment. He said, I said to him, I have a theory that if you use oxytocin words, it could kind of replace the level of engagement. So if I were to get on video and say, sending a high five. Sending a virtual cheek kiss, would it do anything? So we did a little experiment where we had, he has this amazing technology on smartwatches, where he measures your skin conductance and like your physiology to see if you're actually like being turned on, not sexually, but just physiologically.

• 22:33Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  It's on a smartwatch on your wrist, yeah. I have to clarify that. Um, and so what he did is we, we had a bunch of people and, and put on this software on their smartwatch and watched two different videos. One video, we used oxytocin words. I, I would, you know, I can see you, that's an oxytocin word. Sending a virtual high five, sending a virtual hug, wish I could handshake you. And the other one was just positive neutral. So, hey, um, so happy to be here, so glad we could do this, great to get together. We found that the, when we use the oxytocin words, it had double the engagement, double. Meaning even saying, sending a virtual high five, actually triggered a physiology like having an actual high five.

• 23:14Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  So, very first thing is, on your first 10 words of video call, you should be using oxytocin words. It's so good to see you. Oh, I wish I could give you a hug, sending a hug from here. Hey, virtual high five, if that feels natural to you. That's a really easy way to produce oxytocin. If it doesn't feel natural to you, you want to do the next few warmth cues. So one is making sure that you're not too close to the camera. That's like the biggest mistake that we make in virtual calls. So in, in interpersonal reaction, interactions, there's four space zones. And these are incredibly important for gauging intimacy. So we're very aware of these, like even our distance of our chairs right now, I would say, what, we're about three feet away?

• 23:54Jen Cohen?

  Probably, yeah, around three feet.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  That's like the ideal for an interview because it means we're close enough where we can make eye contact, I can see all your facial expressions. If we wanted to, if you reach out right now and just see if you can touch my fingers, we can. That's the ideal, we want to be able just close enough where if we wanted to touch, we could. And we judge that for intimacy. The problem is on video calls, all the space goes away.

• 24:14Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Because there's no actual people. So what happens is people get really close to their camera and we accidentally go into the intimate zone, which is zero to 18 inches away.

• 24:23Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, well, to tell us what the four cues in the book too.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, the four zones are the public zone, which is about over seven feet away. That's like, I don't know you, I can wave to you, but I couldn't talk to you. Then is the social zone, five to seven feet away. That's like, I can see you. I know you. I feel safe around you. We're not going to have in-depth conversation, but I could be like, how are you?

• 24:42Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Good to see you.

• 24:43Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Then there's my favorite zone, which is the personal zone, which is right here, which is about three to five feet away.

• 24:49Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Eighteen inches to five feet away, depending on what culture you're in. And that's a great zone because we can touch if we want to.

• 24:55Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  I can see your facial expressions and it's so comfortable. Zero to eight inches away is the intimate zone. We only like people in our intimate zone if we want to be intimate with them. So we briefly enter it for a hug and then immediately back up, back up. If we're about to kiss someone, we're usually in the intimate zone, right?

• 25:12Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  If we're really feeling close to someone, we're in the intimate zone. So we reserve that for people that we feel very, very close to. While on video call, if you are less than eight inches away, if you measure the distance between your nose and your camera and you're less than eight inches away, you are accidentally going into people's intimate zones, which is triggering.

• 25:28Jen Cohen?

  Whoop.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Too much.

• 25:29Jen Cohen?

  Even though if there's a, there's a, it's a computer in the middle of you.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  There's an instinct. And this is why, like, if people are, like, really close to their camera, you're like, whoa, whoa, back up. It's like a digital close talker. Like, it's, it's still those same alarms.

• 25:42Jen Cohen?

  Still the same alarm.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:43Jen Cohen?

  What, what I don't understand, and that makes sense, that's really great. Those are great tips for people because we're doing Zoom now.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  And by the way, measure, just take a measuring tape and measure the distance between your nose and your camera.

• 25:52Jen Cohen?

  And your camera.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it.

• 25:54Jen Cohen?

  Uh, what I was going to say is how about in terms of the lighting, all that, that doesn't matter, right? People are not like, is that too in-depth?

• 26:02Speaker 02

  No, I do think it matters.

• 26:03Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Like, I would even say, like, your lighting and your background really matters.

• 26:08Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  So there's four different ways we send cues. There's non-verbal, so our body language, our facial expressions, our voice tone. That's about 60 to 90% of our communication. It's the biggest. So, you know, our hand gestures, our smiling, our eye contact, those all matter. Next is verbal, so the words we use. So saying, it's good to see you, handshake.

• 26:27Jen Cohen?

  I wish I can give you a high five.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. Third is vocal, how you say your words. And we can talk about that in a second because it's huge important for our video calls. The last one is imagery. Imagery, what's in your background, the colors you wear, the props you hold. So for example, The what, there's a research study that looked at the background and they said by far having a real background is better than having a virtual background.

• 26:52Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  And that is because we have, we see a virtual background, our eye is like, what's back there?

• 26:57Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  I don't understand, where did her hand just go? So like, those cues really matter. So yes, I mean, the basics are lighting from the top, right? Coming down at you is always better.

• 27:08Jen Cohen?

  Right, yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Um, having cues in your background that help you, that serve you, like for example, um, when I was presenting on cues, I kept getting the question over and over again, are cues universal? Are cues cultural?

• 27:20Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  And I was so like, this question is crazy. I'm getting it all the time. So I took down everything in my background and I added a world map behind me. The question went away.

• 27:28Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Just speaking with a world map behind me, it went away because that cued people to go, oh, she speaks around the world. Like that small prop. And so what I would think about is,

• 27:39Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  in your Zoom backgrounds, in your dating profiles, you want to create cues that either answer questions or attract the right people or detract the wrong people. So I believe for dating specifically and creating allergies. So allergies are props that are going to either turn someone on or turn someone off.

• 27:59Jen Cohen?

  So like, Allergies?

• 28:00Speaker 02

  I call it an allergy cue.

• 28:01Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  An allergy cue is like a cue that people feel strongly about.

• 28:05Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  That it's going to turn off the wrong people. So for example, I'll give you a really specific example. One of my friends was dating forever, could not, she went on so many bad first dates, bad first two or three dates, could not find the right person. I looked all over her pictures, they were all very flattering, very beautiful, but the problem is, is they were too bland. And one of the problems is she's a vegan and she would, that would come up on the first second date. And if you're a vegan, you're either really into that or you're not into that. Very few people feel kind of the middle.

• 28:31Jen Cohen?

  That's so true.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Right. So I said to her, I want you, I bought her a sweatshirt that said, if you're not nice to animals, I'll kill you. Okay, that's what the sweatshirt said. That's how she feels.

• 28:41Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  She's like, this is so extreme. I was like, I want you to wear, I want you to look gorgeous. And I want you to wear it in your very first profile picture. Because it's either going to turn someone on real hardcore, or they're going to be like allergy.

• 28:51Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, that's so true. Right.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  And she found her man. Yes. So I want, I want you to create props that are allergic to your wrong people.

• 28:58Jen Cohen?

  Right. That's a great idea.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Like, our, our brand is called Science of People. I purposely chose science as an allergy. There are certain people who are like, I don't like science. You're not my person.

• 29:08Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  You're not going to like my book. Science is in almost every cover marketing in my book. Because if you don't like science, it's an allergy for you.

• 29:15Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  If you like science, you're like, yes, data.

• 29:18Jen Cohen?

  Who wouldn't want to have data and science backing these things?

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Not my people.

• 29:22Jen Cohen?

  Do they want like a bobblehead just wandering around just saying, my opinion is?

• 29:25Speaker 02

  They want funny stories. And we have some of those, but like, you gotta like data, you know?

• 29:30Jen Cohen?

  So why don't they get an Archie magazine?

• 29:32Speaker 02

  I agree. I agree.

• 29:34Jen Cohen?

  You know?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Like, go get your Archie magazine.

• 29:36Jen Cohen?

  No, it's true. Like, I mean, especially with this type of information, you want to have some kind of legitimate science backing of it, right?

• 29:44Speaker 02

  I agree, but not everyone does. And so I would think about like, for your personal brand, for your professional brand, for your LinkedIn profile. Like, for example, if you want to get a job in a tech startup, do not be in a suit.

• 29:55Jen Cohen?

  A hundred percent. That's a great point.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  Like, you should be in the clothes that you want to wear at your ideal job.

• 30:00Jen Cohen?

  So tell us about that. Let's, let's talk about, before, before I even jump into that, I'm going to forget. Why do people, when they see each other and they don't know somebody?

• 30:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:08Jen Cohen?

  They get into their intimate, into, into that intimate zone by doing that face-to-face kissing or the hugging, when they don't even know them, it's like uncomfortable. Like, if you're someone who doesn't like to be touched or anything else, isn't that too just, like, you just, it's, it's just like you're, you're, you're just assuming. And it's like, makes, can, can that just be, can that give you the opposite effect?

• 30:30Speaker 02

  So here's the thing. Humans are super curious creatures. Again, two C words I just love.

• 30:36Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Here's what happens, is we meet someone, even if we don't know them, we really want to know, we want to suss you out. And so when we get close, we're producing oxytocin to see, do I like this person? But we're also looking for pheromones. We're also judging, is this my person smell-wise? I'm going to tell you a really disgusting, two disgusting studies.

• 30:55Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  But these change the way that I think about touch. They did a study where they that exact question, they're like, why have humans evolved to handshake? It seems crazy.

• 31:04Jen Cohen?

  More than that, and people are now constantly coming up to me and kissing both cheeks and like hugging me. I'm like, I don't even know you.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you're like, why would humans, it's very dangerous. We don't really know someone that well to allow them into your space.

• 31:16Jen Cohen?

  A stranger.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Why would you do it?

• 31:16Jen Cohen?

  And then you feel like, and then for the other person, it puts them in a situation where they feel like they're being rude if they step away. So then you have to go about that. And then everything becomes, you're putting yourself in an awkward situation.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  But it's primal. Here's the problem. It is so primal. That's why like, it's hard not to do this because what they did, that was exactly the question they were wondering. So what they did is they found that what happens when you handshake someone is you can decide about four of the five personality traits from a handshake alone. So blind handshake, you can tell about someone's extroversion, you can tell about their agreeableness, you can tell how organized they are. So first you can tell a lot about a person by their handshake.

• 31:52Jen Cohen?

  Tell us.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  About mine?

• 31:55Jen Cohen?

  About, I'm gonna, let me shake your hand.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. So I would say that you are ambitious, organized, extroverted.

• 32:03Jen Cohen?

  By my handshake?

• 32:04Speaker 02

  By your handshake, yeah.

• 32:05Jen Cohen?

  Because what was my handshake to you?

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Firm.

• 32:08Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Uh, quick, and you only pumped me once.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  Let me give you, I'm gonna give you the opposite handshake. And you're gonna see how, you're gonna see me as different. Are you ready? I'm gonna give you, I just gave you my real handshake. I'm gonna give you a handshake that is not my personality. You're gonna be like, whoa, this feels really different.

• 32:25Jen Cohen?

  Okay, cuz I've heard that this, I wanted to say one thing. We all know that that like, you know, when you like give someone a handshake and they give you that like,

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Dead fish.

• 32:32Jen Cohen?

  That dead fish hat, I'm like, that person is so,

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Okay, let's do a dead fish. I'm gonna give you the dead fish, you're not gonna like it.

• 32:38Jen Cohen?

  Okay. It's like all horrible.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Now I'm gonna give you the other one, okay? We're gonna go the other way, you're gonna be like, whoa, that's so different, ready?

• 32:43Jen Cohen?

  Okay, okay. Oh my God, that's like, I, people do that, I'm always like, wow, it's like, there's so,

• 32:47Speaker 02

  So don't you think of me differently?

• 32:49Jen Cohen?

  A hundred percent.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 32:51Jen Cohen?

  Okay, what does that say? So tell us about this.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. So, so first, we learn a lot about someone from a handshake.

• 32:57Jen Cohen?

  So mind the one pump.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  I mean, you know what? I don't even want to do. I don't even want to tell people because I don't want you to change who you are.

• 33:05Jen Cohen?

  I think it's brilliant.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  You have to just know who you are and own it.

• 33:08Jen Cohen?

  And this, okay, that means.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Although, don't be dead fish.

• 33:10Jen Cohen?

  Okay, what is, let's go over this again. So mine is, uh, would you say ambitious?

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Ambitious, extroverted, and, um, organized?

• 33:20Jen Cohen?

  Organized?

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Yes. Um, dead fish is when it's very, very loose and limp and we see someone as like a pushover, uh, can't get stuff done, probably timid, and probably not organized.

• 33:31Jen Cohen?

  I also think that they're like, they're probably just lame. Like, I mean, who, who does that?

• 33:34Speaker 02

  And lame.

• 33:35Jen Cohen?

  Like, who does that?

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Like lame.

• 33:37Jen Cohen?

  No, and also completely unaware, like socially and self unaware. Like, how do you not know that's a shitty handshake, right?

• 33:45Speaker 02

  You'd be shocked. Okay, like someone listening is like, oh, I have a dead fish handshake. They're gonna be shocked.

• 33:50Jen Cohen?

  Change it.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Change it. Okay, so here's what's crazy about this study. Is firstly, you can find out a lot about someone from their handshake.

• 33:55Jen Cohen?

  What's the other one? You didn't tell us the third one, the sturdy one that you just gave.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Really sturdy one, when I like, really, I hand you, I like really made it strong. And I, I fast pumped you.

• 34:02Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, you shook fast, yeah.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  So I took over the handshake. So that's dominant, right? It's very imposing, it's very powerful. It's like, um, it's not even organized, it's like hyper focused. Like, you probably thought like, whoa, she gets it done.

• 34:14Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Right?

• 34:15Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  And I, so I quick pumped you and I, and I held harder and I also pulled you a little bit closer to me.

• 34:20Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. The other thing that we can do is, here, give me your hand.

• 34:23Jen Cohen?

  When girls do that to me, I'm very like, whoa, I'm, I'm always like, very like, like, put, like, put back a little bit or like.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  I kinda like it. I kinda like it.

• 34:31Jen Cohen?

  But when guys do, I'm like, wow, that guy is like.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Oh, I love when people like dominate in a handshake.

• 34:35Jen Cohen?

  I like that, like, that's like, oh, he's a guy.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  But I like girls and guys too. I like, I like both. I'm like, yeah, be strong.

• 34:41Jen Cohen?

  A girl that is strong like that.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Oh my god, I'm into it.

• 34:43Jen Cohen?

  Strong, it's so intense.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  I'm so into it.

• 34:45Jen Cohen?

  Like, you're like, you were like squeezing so hard.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  So the other thing that can happen is this. So like, I, if I turn you up, this is a very submissive position. It's very weak for me, and so I'm saying you're in charge. Versus if I were to do this to you, that should not feel good. That's saying I'm in charge. There's certain politicians who do this. So if you've seen those politicians who go like this, and they pull you close, and they go like that.

• 35:07Jen Cohen?

  That means you're in charge.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:08Jen Cohen?

  So if your palm is up, you're in charge.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  If you're, if, if, if you are showing your very weak part of your hand, that means you're submissive. Right? You're saying, I'm weak to you. Also, there's more pheromones that come out here. So a lot of times, women will be like, oh, it's so good to meet.

• 35:23Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  To like, be sort of like, I'm, I'm showing like my intimate space.

• 35:27Jen Cohen?

  Got it.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Versus like, hey, nice to meet you, which is like much more, I'm in charge. So that's, that's some handshake science. But what this study found, which I think is insane, is in the 10 to 20 seconds after someone handshake, some point in the interaction, they would touch their own nose. And they hypothesized that we like to smell what the other person's hand smelled like. And I cannot tell you, now that I know this, you'll never be able to learn that. Now, when I handshake people, I have to say, don't touch my nose, don't touch my nose, don't touch my nose, don't touch my nose, don't touch my nose. Like, it just happened now where I was like, don't touch my nose. Because it's actually a human instinct, I swear, to shake hands and then touch your own nose. Because we want to smell it.

• 36:10Jen Cohen?

  I love this.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so pheromones are.

• 36:12Jen Cohen?

  So that, that, so you want to see how the other person smells.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  You, you want to.

• 36:16Jen Cohen?

  For pheromones. Wow.

• 36:17Speaker 02

  And then hormones and like, you, you, you can learn a lot about a person by smell. It's totally subconscious. Like, here's another, the other example I shared about this in my TED Talk, which I think was one of the reasons the TED Talk did so well, because it's so disgusting. Is they had two groups of people come into the lab. The first group ran on the treadmill, wearing sweat pads. They caught their sweat. The second group, skydiving for the first time, wearing sweat pads. They took the sweat pads, both looked identical, but two different kinds of sweat, and they had participants smell them.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Disgusting, right? I hope they paid them really well. In an FMRI machines, they found that when people smelled the fear sweat, the skydiving sweat, they began to feel afraid. Even though they had no idea what they were smelling. When they smelled the runner's sweat, they felt nothing at all. So what this means is that when we are afraid, it creates a certain kind of smell, and it's actually catching. It's contagious. So I think one of the reasons why we're, we insist on cheek kissing is we're like. Are you afraid?

• 37:11Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 37:12Speaker 02

  A little bit.

• 37:13Jen Cohen?

  This is like Silence of the Lambs. This is so creepy.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  It's so creepy. Another favorite C word. I'm just joking.

• 37:19Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, no, no, no.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  But like, but that's what we're sussing out because we don't want to catch it. Very highly charismatic people are so confident. They are sending signals of confidence and we want that confidence. We want to catch it. When someone is low confident, when they're sterile, when they're afraid, we don't want to catch it.

• 37:37Jen Cohen?

  True, true, true. That's such a good point. What happens if it's not about confidence? It's about like the opposite. It's like, I don't want this rando to be like touching me and kissing me. It's not that I'm not confident. It's just like, I just don't want their, I just don't want their

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Cause you don't want to touch the hands.

• 37:52Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. So people who are less comfortable with touch, it's probably because they're like, I don't want to take a risk on your heebie jeebies. Like, I don't know what you're gonna smell like.

• 38:01Jen Cohen?

  Or like, I don't know you. Yeah. Yeah.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  I, I kind of like it. Like, I kind of like to know what other people are about. Like, that's my whole job, right? I love to think about, it's like, I'm gonna smell you. I want to get close to you. I want to feel your hand.

• 38:11Jen Cohen?

  What if it's like someone like gross and not like, not very, they don't look clean or?

• 38:17Speaker 02

  I'm like into it. Like, I'm like, no judgment. Like, I'm like, what do you like?

• 38:20Jen Cohen?

  What gets you going?

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Really? Yeah, totally. That's my job.

• 38:24Jen Cohen?

  So, so you think when

• 38:26Speaker 02

  If I could, I had an experiment one time where I just, all I did in the experiment was look in people's junk drawers, their trunks of their car and their medicine cabinet. It was like the greatest three months of my life. Like, it was like the best.

• 38:36Jen Cohen?

  See, that would be interesting to me.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 38:38Jen Cohen?

  I like that. But if you're kissing someone

• 38:40Speaker 02

  The same as smelling people.

• 38:42Jen Cohen?

  I guess, is it subconsciously is telling you something?

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Exactly. And now that, like, I'm aware of it, like, just, this is a gross challenge for listeners, but like, next time you cheek kiss someone, like, just like smell a little bit. Like, what do you smell? I'm telling you, you're gonna learn something.

• 38:56Jen Cohen?

  It's a hundred percent true. What if you, yeah, like, I guess, and do we even know ourselves, like, what we think of that smell? Like, if it can be very nondescript sometimes.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  I also think it's super subconscious. Like, even, I've known, I've known about this research for almost a decade. Like, I, I've known about it. And even still, I'm trying to suss people out. So I just try to like, like, take someone in, like I take in their handshake, and I try to think like, what just pops into my head? Because I I don't know exactly what it is, but I know there are certain things that will pop into my head that I'm like, hmm, interesting.

• 39:25Jen Cohen?

  That is so interesting. I'm like fascinated by.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  It's so weird though.

• 39:28Jen Cohen?

  It is.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  The book is less weird than that. I promise.

• 39:30Jen Cohen?

  No, no, no. It's actually, I love all this stuff. There's also something else that I heard that gestures are way bigger than words, right? Like way more impactful than words.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Yes. So there's a beautiful researcher, Susan Goldameta, who wrote a book called Hearing Gesture. And basically, her argument in all of her research is that gesture isn't just like extra. Like, we kind of think of it as like fluff, like we don't really think about it. But actually, gesture is critically important to our comprehension, both as a speaker and as a listener, and that some gestures carry 400% more information than words. Like, for example, if I were to say I have a really big idea and I hold up, like I'm holding a little, a quarter, you're like, that doesn't look very big at all. You're actually more likely to believe my hand. Same thing with if I were to say, um, uh, I have, I have three different things I want to tell you, but I hold up the number five. You're like, no, it's five. You're actually more likely to believe my hand.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  So our brain actually gives a lot of weight to gestures, yet we don't think about our gestures. And so one of the experiments we did in our lab, I was, I've always been interested in gesture, is we watched and coded thousands of hours of TED Talks, looking for patterns.

• 40:38Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  And we found that the most popular TED Talkers by view count use an average of 465 gestures in 18 minutes. It's a huge amount of gesture, whereas the least popular TED Talkers use an average of 272 gestures, almost half. And the reason for this is when we are listening to a speaker and they know their content really well, they're like outlining their content along with their words. And so when we're thinking about presenting an idea, telling a story on a date, showcasing our smarts, actually, the best way that we can underline that is being like, I know my content so well. I'm going to tell you this point number one and this point number two, I'm going to tell you it's this big or it's this big. Like, we're, it's like, wow, they're so congruent. Their gestures are literally punctuating their words.

• 41:22Jen Cohen?

  I'm glad that you mentioned that Ted, the Ted Talks. See, I know you did a bit, you did a bunch of studies on that and also Shark Tank, which I'll get to in a second. So give me some other cues or points of why, what you noticed when you did all your research with the Ted Talks.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Yes, actually, this brings us right back to which I forgot about, which is vocal power.

• 41:42Jen Cohen?

  I wrote that down.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Voice.

• 41:44Jen Cohen?

  Because the gestures and the voice are so much more powerful.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  And we don't use them.

• 41:48Jen Cohen?

  Than the actual word you use.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Yes, like I always think of these as opportunities, like imagine you worked so hard on your ideas and your presence, your makeup, your hair, your clothes. Imagine if you just added these, it's like supercharging your charisma. So gestures is one, vocal power was the other, very clearly. In that there is like a Ted Talk sound, so I'm gonna do it for you so you can hear it. There is vocal cues that we use. So vocal cues are voice, volume, pace, cadence, that make us judge someone's charisma levels, their competence. So like, for example, all the best Ted Talks start like this. "Today, I have a big idea. I'm gonna break it down into three areas that are gonna change your life."

• 42:31Speaker 02

  And when they get to a statistic, they say, "And now, that took giant percent, giant percent." And you go, "Wow, that's a big percent." Like they even cue you of when you should be wowed.

• 42:43Jen Cohen?

  That is so interesting. So, wait, because my Ted Talk did very, very well.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:48Jen Cohen?

  And I started with...

• 42:49Speaker 02

  I wish I had just watched it.

• 42:50Jen Cohen?

  I was gonna say, I wish you watched it.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  I know, I appreciate it. I know, I know. Did you use that voice?

• 42:55Jen Cohen?

  I started off by saying...

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, do the beginning for me.

• 42:58Jen Cohen?

  Okay. "So I know the secret to getting anything you want in life."

• 43:02Speaker 02

  You did it. So if we were just talking back and forth, you'd be like, "I know the secret to getting anything you want in life." But you said it in a Ted Talk voice. "So I know the secret to getting anything you want in life." That's a Ted Talk voice. You did it.

• 43:15Jen Cohen?

  So if you, so you think, because what I, it's like when I did my Ted Talk.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:19Jen Cohen?

  I left there thinking, oh, my God, I bombed, right? Like, so many things went wrong. I had notes on my hands. And I was like, I was so nervous that my, I had like cotton mouth. I was like, I, they had to like restart it for me. I'm like, can we stop? Because I need some water. I could not even like, there were so many like, like foibles that happened.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  That's good, though.

• 43:42Jen Cohen?

  That what I'm thinking, I'm curious, but is it because there were so many foibles? And I, I came across very real?

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:49Jen Cohen?

  That people maybe were like, ah, that what happened to me, that big loser. You know what I mean?

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. So here's the misconception. If you go watch the TED Talks that didn't do well, and by the way, didn't do well is like 20,000 views. Still like a lot, right?

• 44:02Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Go watch those talks. The misconception is that those people messed up. No. The worst TED Talks sound like this.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Today, I want to talk to you about a big idea. This is a life changing idea. The last 20 years I've spent researching has been on the marine biology life and the series of the ocean. Like, it's like so robotic and so memorized. And actually, what happens is the worst TED Talkers, they under cue. We're right back to where we started. They are so focused on the script.

• 44:31Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  They take away all the vocal charisma. They take away all their gestures. They stand there with their hands limp by their sides in the microphone, reciting a script.

• 44:41Jen Cohen?

  Right, memorized, because they all memorize.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  And there's no gestures. So actually, the foibles, the vulnerability, we like speakers who use a conversational tone, a conversational stage tone, because we're like, ah, we could be having coffee with them. That feels really real. So all the best TED Talkers, like Brene Brown, Simon Sinek, they're not that rehearsed. Now, they might have been actually rehearsed, but when they're talking on stage, Ken Robinson, it sounds like they're joking around at your dinner table. It does not sound like, today is the speech of my life. Like, they're not talking like that. So our vocal power, one, is not scripted, not underqueuing, adding lots of emotion, including foibles, including vulnerability. And second, and this is what they all have, is they use the lowest end of their natural tone.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  So the other mistake that the worst TED Talkers make is they would start on a really high tone like this. Say to walk on stage, "Hey, everyone. Good morning. Um, today I really want to talk to you about a big idea." And you're like, "No, I cannot..." Listen.

• 45:42Jen Cohen?

  That's so true.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Click away. So, the tone that you give is one of the most important parts of our vocal confidence.

• 45:50Jen Cohen?

  Is that the tone? Do you know that girl Elizabeth Holmes?

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Oh, do I? Let me, let me talk, let's talk about Elizabeth Holmes. Okay. So, this research is pretty well established that lower tones for both men and women are seen as high, as seen as higher in confidence. Goes flying.

• 46:06Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, sorry. Sorry. Say that one more time. I want that to be like said properly with me listening.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Yes. So, it's pretty well established research that people with lower tones are seen as, seen as higher in confidence. In fact, research has found that it takes about 500 milliseconds of hearing someone speak to decide how confident they are. It's incredibly fast. Literally, your first word, that's when someone decides how confident you are. And it's usually based just on the tone. I think, and that study came out in the early 2000s, I think Elizabeth Holmes read that study.

• 46:35Jen Cohen?

  You think so?

• 46:36Speaker 02

  I do. I think she read it. And she went, "Wow, great. This is the clearest link to confidence we have. Women need to be taken more seriously. I'm gonna take this study and I'm gonna go so low that no one can question my confidence and my competence." So, what she did is she went too low, right? She went to really low down here. So, she was talking like this. The problem is, we all can hear the inauthenticity in this. It's actually distracting. So, when she was talking, it was like, "What is happening with her voice?" So, I think she read that study and took it one step too far.

• 47:05Jen Cohen?

  Well, what's interesting, though, is she did raise almost a billion dollars with that voice.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  She did.

• 47:10Jen Cohen?

  And she was like a kid from Stanford, right?

• 47:13Speaker 02

  It worked.

• 47:14Jen Cohen?

  It worked.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  It worked.

• 47:15Jen Cohen?

  So, what is interesting is...

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Again, that's cue gone wrong.

• 47:18Jen Cohen?

  But these are cues that actually, it may be a cue gone wrong, but these cues are so subliminal that even if you know it's happening, it's hap, it still happens.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  And like, investors would, and employees would say, "We, her voice sounded weird, but boy, did she sound like she knew what she was talking about."

• 47:33Jen Cohen?

  Well, 100%. Like, first of all, does anyone have any video or, has anyone ever heard her speak before the Theranos?

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Yes, there's, I've listened to many of them. Them. I did a little breakdown of Theronos. Um, yes, you can find clips of her on a podcast where her voice is much higher.

• 47:49Jen Cohen?

  It was much higher.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 47:50Jen Cohen?

  Obviously higher.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Yes, obvious, absolutely obviously higher. And also employees have said that when she was drunk, she would stay higher.

• 47:56Jen Cohen?

  I saw that on the special on her, on the.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  By the way, if you want to hear the perfect example of her low voice, go listen to the first one minute of her TED Talk. It's bizarre. Like, it's so low and it's halty.

• 48:07Jen Cohen?

  How do you stay that low for so long?

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. It must have been like exhausting for her. Maybe that's why she wore turtlenecks. It's like it's

• 48:12Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  Helps to cover up her, her vocal cords.

• 48:15Jen Cohen?

  Totally.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  In your first few lines of your video call, of your phone call, of your date, you do not want to go, "Hi." That is a mistake that we all make is we take in a deep breath and we say hello on the upper part of our breath. So we say, "Oh, it's so good to see you."

• 48:31Jen Cohen?

  So I hate that.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  So we listen to recordings in our lab. We've listened to recordings of phone calls, of sales pitches, of negotiations, and always the highest note someone has is their very first word, which is so sad because that means all of their confidence is given away in their very first words. People go, "Hey, it's so good to hear from you."

• 48:50Jen Cohen?

  It's true, but the problem is, it's like a very weird blend because you're trying to be warm with a warm cue. You want to come across open and nice.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:00Jen Cohen?

  So you go high.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 49:01Jen Cohen?

  Right?

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Remember that a high voice tone is not warm. A high voice tone just means excited. So like, for example, we talk to babies, we talk to puppies.

• 49:12Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  "Hello, little one. How are you?" Excitement, not warmth. So warmth comes from vocal warmth. So listen to the difference. Vocal warmth is we hear happiness, we hear compassion, we hear smiling. And actually smiling changes the sound of our voice. We did this in our lab where we had actors come in and record different hellos. So we had them do their normal hello, hello. Then we had them think of something that made them happy, make a smile and say, "Hello." So this is the difference of that. So this is my neutral hello. Hello. Here's my happy hello. Hello? Like you can literally hear it in my voice.

• 49:50Jen Cohen?

  By you smiling?

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:51Jen Cohen?

  Even if it feels like a fake smile.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  Doesn't matter. You can still hear it.

• 49:55Jen Cohen?

  Wow. Okay.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Right. Cause of the shape of my mouth, again, we're very subconsciously aware of these cues.

• 50:01Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  We don't have to think twice about it. But if I were to answer the phone and be like, hello, I don't sound very excited to hear from you.

• 50:07Jen Cohen?

  No, you don't. You sound miserable.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  Right. And it would be like, ugh. Right. I actually would come across as less likeable. We literally studied this in our lab. People rated the smiling hellos as more likeable. We asked people to listen to these hellos. They had no idea what they were listening to. And they didn't know the person was smiling and they rated the person as more friendly, more likeable if they want to hang out with them. So when I hear hello, you much more want to hang out with me just by even that fake smile.

• 50:33Jen Cohen?

  So are there, are there, and I think you talk within this book or the other book about smiling in general though.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:39Jen Cohen?

  What smiles are the most impactful or the most powerful to get what you want?

• 50:47Speaker 02

  So there's a smiling, it's funny because it's sort of gotten a bad rap in the last few years. Like it's horrible to be told to smile. Like no one likes that. So I try really hard to not give that advice. So what I would say is either smile for real or don't smile at all. Here's why. Dr. Barbara Wild and her researchers found that when they showed people pictures of fake smiles and real smiles, and the difference is in a real smile are upper cheek muscles are activated. So it goes all the way up into our eyes, up in these upper cheeks.

• 51:14Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  Those upper cheek muscles are activated. And by the way, only one in 10 people can consciously activate them. So it's very hard to fake that. That means it's a real smile. We look for those upper cheek activation muscles. When it's a fake smile, it stays in the bottom half of our face. Right? They're not activated up here.

• 51:30Jen Cohen?

  Like crow's feet, you mean?

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Crow's feet. Yes. And

• 51:32Jen Cohen?

  I've got a ton of those.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  So it's, crow's feet are fantastic. The problem is is botox is a very complicated issue. And I'm not anti botox, but it's important to know if you're going to do it, that it inhibits your emotional feedback loop. So when they botox people's smile wrinkles, they actually felt less happy. When they botox people's anger, they felt less angry. So they're actually thinking about using botox as anger management treatment. So it's again, not that are good. Yeah. They've actually found that it inhibits the anger cycle. But if you cannot make that anger expression when your, your eyebrows are pulled down together and those vertical lines, it actually makes, your body almost goes, oh, my face is in anger. I guess I'm not that angry. It literally makes you feel less angry. So they're thinking about using it for anger management techniques because it actually helps inhibit that loop.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  But for smiling, it can also inhibit your happiness. So what Barbara Wilde found is that when we see someone with a fake smile, we do not have any mood change. When we see someone with a real smile, we catch the happiness.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  So if you want to smile, make sure it's real. That makes you literally more physically memorable. It makes you more contagious. I'd rather you real smile or no smile. A fake smile doesn't do much.

• 52:40Jen Cohen?

  Okay, give me some other cues like that. That goodness, there's so many.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  I know. Give me, there's like a billion. I mean, like, I'm trying to think of like, oh, I want to ask you about power posing.

• 52:48Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  Because, you know, wasn't Amy Cuddy who did this whole thing, wasn't that kind of, I, I, I heard that people faulty science. There was some faulty science behind it. And there's no, the, the power posing was, is not actually something that you can use as. She's come out defending her work. So I highly recommend if you're interested in like, really learning about it. She's come out with a defense of her work and explanation of what happened. So, um, it hasn't been totally debunked. There was some fuzzy science in there, but she's come out.

• 53:15Jen Cohen?

  It has not been debunked.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  She insists that her science was whole.

• 53:19Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  I, I'll leave it up to you to decide and you can go read her rebuttal.

• 53:22Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Um, what is good to know though, I, I don't know how accurate it is that power posing completely changes your testosterone. Right? Like that, that, that was a big leap. That was the biggest, that was the biggest leap in her research. I also think like, I love power posing, but you can't like walk into a meeting like, you know, with your hands above your head. So I, I, I like the idea of it, but I actually like to like, take it down a notch, which is just a very simple, my version of a power pose is actually just expansive posture, which very simply, the only distance that I care about, I don't care if your arms are up. I don't care if you're claiming space. That doesn't matter to me.

• 53:57Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  All that I care about is the distance between your ear lobe and your shoulder. The distance.

• 54:03Jen Cohen?

  Wait.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  It's my favorite distance on the human body.

• 54:05Jen Cohen?

  Okay, really?

• 54:06Speaker 02

  This is the distance between your ear and your shoulder.

• 54:08Jen Cohen?

  Okay, why?

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Why? When we are anxious or defeated, we tend to roll our shoulders up. We tend to sink our head down. We often tilt our head down. People who are really ashamed will often have no space between their ears and their shoulders. It makes us feel very protected. And so you'll notice people who are really anxious will sit like this, like teenagers will be like, you know, when you see any space right here. Whereas confident people, they want to claim their space. They roll their shoulders down and back. They usually use armrests. They usually have their torso open. They have their head up and out and their chin up. So the only distance that I care about, that's the most important on video calls, on profile pictures, is I want this distance to be as big as possible, that you're not like this in your profile pictures.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  It's like the worst because it literally shows low confidence, that you're not going to start your video call, hi, good to see you. And that's what people do in their first impressions. They accidentally creep their shoulders up. Hey, everyone, good to see you.

• 55:07Jen Cohen?

  That's a great point. So if you keep your shoulders down.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Down and head up.

• 55:11Jen Cohen?

  And that's for everything, not just, again, this is for like LinkedIn profiles.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  LinkedIn profile.

• 55:16Jen Cohen?

  Video calls.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Video calls, in person, how you wave hello, how you walk into a room, how you carry your stuff. I mean, oftentimes I'll see people with their laptop, right? And they have it like tightly in front of their chest with their shoulders hunched up. And I'm like, what are you doing?

• 55:29Jen Cohen?

  Wow, yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  You look small. So that that distance is the only power pose, quote unquote, power pose, distance that I care about. That's actually the most impactful for your perceived confidence.

• 55:39Jen Cohen?

  But you said something, okay, so when you said we were, when you were kind of imitating that one, how about a head tilt? I heard, I used, I thought you.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  I love head tilt.

• 55:46Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, you like head tilt.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:48Jen Cohen?

  So but isn't that still the ear to shoulder?

• 55:51Speaker 02

  So let's just do the difference, right? So if I'm going to do a head tilt that I like, a head tilt is a universal sign of warmth. It's a universal sign of engagement. It shows I'm listening. So if I had tilt, I still have lots of distance. Mostly I'm just exposing my ear and you see that as, ah, she's listening, she's open versus.

• 56:07Jen Cohen?

  Right. Not so you don't shrug those ears.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Shrugging.

• 56:09Jen Cohen?

  You don't shrug those shoulders up.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  And that also makes it really hard to have vocal power. So if I were to try to give an entire podcast interview like this, you would actually hear it in my voice. Actually sounds smaller.

• 56:19Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, and it sounds weird.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  Exactly, because you can hear it. We don't like people who take up little space. By the moment that I add more space, you go, oh, that's better.

• 56:28Jen Cohen?

  That is 100% true.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:30Jen Cohen?

  Okay, how about this? I've got so many, but like, but I haven't even add.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 56:34Jen Cohen?

  I feel so, okay, but how about, um, I have a note here, but I don't remember why the walk. There's like about a walk here. You could tell a lot by someone's walk.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 56:44Jen Cohen?

  I don't remember why I had it down.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  I don't know, but you, you can tell somebody, but there's not, I don't, it's funny, there's, um, Bio-Motion Lab has some interesting things about walking, but I didn't even include that in the book because it's hard to learn it. It's hard to change your walk.

• 56:56Jen Cohen?

  Maybe I heard that, what you were talking about.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  I think maybe, maybe I, I mentioned in the book that like having movement in your walk, like not having like your arms really stiff. Like the more, you have the more space you take up.

• 57:06Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, that was probably what, okay, so let's get back to the other stuff they're saying for the video calls. How about in terms of emailing and texting people?

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the last, the, the, the second to last chapter in the book is on verbal, right? Because so much of our communication is email.

• 57:19Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  What we're fighting in verbal is sterile. Meaning a lot of our communication has gotten so sterile that our words mean nothing. So we send emails like, hey, um, our meeting is planned for next week. I'll prepare the proposal for you and I'll get all the information over to you. Talk to you next Tuesday. Bleh, right? Like, we get those emails all the time. It's hard to reply to them. We're burnt out.

• 57:44Jen Cohen?

  And texting also?

• 57:45Speaker 02

  And texting also, right? Hey, are we still on for next Tuesday? Right, right. We get those all the time. The problem is, is in terms of our brain, our brain needs more cues. If we have taken out all the cues from our body language in email, we have no body language in email. We have no facial expressions in email. We have no voice turn in email. We better make our verbal cues pretty powerful.

• 58:03Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  And so that's why we're so burnt out on email. That's why people might respond slowly to your emails is there's not enough cues. It's like under signaling.

• 58:10Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  So what I like to think about is adding warmth and competence to your emails, to your texts.

• 58:17Jen Cohen?

  To a text also?

• 58:18Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. So when we are getting a text or email from someone or reading a LinkedIn profile, we're also trying to see warmth and competence. It doesn't go away.

• 58:28Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  In communication. So I can look at a LinkedIn profile. Actually, a study that we did in our lab, we had people come into our lab. I felt bad for these participants. They had no idea what was coming for them. And we had them take our charisma diagnostic to see where they were on warmth and competence. By the way, that's up for free. You can take it wherever you want. It's scienceable.com/charisma. Take it as many times as you want. So I had them take that. It's like a, you know, 10-question questionnaire to see where they were on warmth and competence. Then we asked them to open up their email sent folder. And we looked at their last five emails they sent. And we counted the number of warm words, the number of competent words. So warm words are words that are like the warm and fuzzies. Happy, best, together, collaborate, open. Emojis are warm. Exclamation points are warm. Words like wow, yay, fab, whoop.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  Those are all warm words. They make us feel like, ooh, I like this person.

• 59:17Jen Cohen?

  But emoji, doesn't it kind of also, yeah, it takes away the people, you don't feel a person's competent.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:22Jen Cohen?

  They feel like, yeah.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  It's friendly.

• 59:24Jen Cohen?

  You feel like it's too like cutesy. Yeah.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  It's all friendly. So we counted the number of warm words and we counted the number of competent words. Competent words are words that make you want to get it done. Productive, efficient, brainstorm, power through, goal, win, achieve, success, master. Those kind of words. Statistics, numbers, prices, charts, graphs. Right? Right? So those are all competence. We count them all up and we could almost exactly predict where someone was on the charisma scale based on the kind of words they use. So if someone was highly charismatic, they had a perfect balance of warmth and competence. If someone was highly warm, they used a ton of emojis and a ton of exclamation points. If someone was super competent, they had either nothing at all or lots of statistics and big words.

• 1:00:02Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  So in your texts and your emails, you want to balance the number of warmth and competence words.

• 1:00:08Jen Cohen?

  Now, is that for personal and professional?

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  I think so. Right? Like, I want to be seen as charismatic in all my relationships. Now, on emails that don't matter, like emails where it's purely logistics, sure, you don't need to do it, right? Like, these are the emails that matter to you. Like, the emails like to your boss or a client or an important email to your best friend. So it's not that you have to use them in every email. Like, you wouldn't be like, have the perfect hand gestures when you're trying to talk to your husband about the weekend plan.

• 1:00:33Jen Cohen?

  Okay, but how about if you want to, if you want to text back from a guy that you like or a woman that you like?

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  I definitely want to use it.

• 1:00:38Jen Cohen?

  Right? So give us an example of what you, what you should do and what you shouldn't do.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. So what I wouldn't do is, are we still on for tonight? Right, which is like often the texts that you get.

• 1:00:49Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  It's sterile.

• 1:00:50Jen Cohen?

  They'll have like, ah, I'm just making this up before. Hi, you know. I don't know.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Hi is good.

• 1:00:56Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, like, hey.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Like, hi.

• 1:00:58Jen Cohen?

  Uh, you know, you, you say like, don't even say things that are like social scripting, like, how was your day?

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 1:01:03Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  Oh, agreed. So like, for example, I'm, I live in Texas, right?

• 1:01:07Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  I might be like, howdy.

• 1:01:08Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Okay. Just to be a little different, you know?

• 1:01:10Jen Cohen?

  Cute.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  Um, uh, and I may be like, so instead of, are we on for tonight? Howdy, so excited for tonight, still looking good? So that's very different because I'm giving an interesting howdy, an interesting opener. I'm saying so excited for tonight. So it's a little dopamine word. Excited is a great dopamine word. It's almost like a charisma word. It's perfectly warm and confident. And then I'm like, still looking good for tonight? Still looking good for tonight is such a good psychological sentence.

• 1:01:38Jen Cohen?

  That's great.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  Cause you're basically saying, I'm looking good. Are you looking good?

• 1:01:40Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. I love it. Okay. If you don't live in Texas, what do you, what do you write?

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  Aloha, ciao.

• 1:01:47Jen Cohen?

  What if you thought of a plan? Give me another one that's not flat.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  And by the way, you don't have to like use all of our authors. You can, but like, yeah, you don't have to use howdy or aloha or ciao or whatever.

• 1:01:58Jen Cohen?

  They're great.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you can, they're fantastic.

• 1:02:01Jen Cohen?

  If you want someone to respond to you, that's not like, if you don't have plans, but you want them to engage.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  It's, it's using words that are gonna wake people up. So it's not like, how's your day going?

• 1:02:11Jen Cohen?

  Man. Right.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  So boring. It's what's good today? Really even just like that very small switch, asking someone, how are you? You're gonna get, good, busy.

• 1:02:22Jen Cohen?

  Exact, or nothing.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  Or nothing.

• 1:02:23Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  Asking someone, what's good? What's good? You're gonna get like, oh, what's good? What's good? What's good? Well, you know, I've just had a beautiful cup of coffee. Hmm, me too. We should get one together next week. Right? Like it's using more, being a little sycer.

• 1:02:37Jen Cohen?

  Like you'd be, I mean, listen, you could be a great like matchmaking coach too.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  You know what? Back in the day, matchmaking was like my dream career. I would like, love it.

• 1:02:47Jen Cohen?

  Oh, I would love it too.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  I would let, I would do personality assessments on people. I would do body language analysis.

• 1:02:52Jen Cohen?

  By the way, I'm getting to that. Don't even think you're getting away scot free with all. I didn't even get to the hard stuff yet. I'm getting through all this stuff.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  Is there hard stuff?

• 1:02:59Jen Cohen?

  No, not, but listen, I'm getting through the stuff that's like, you know, very tactile for people who are maybe for work, for business, like, okay.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  Give me a hard one.

• 1:03:07Jen Cohen?

  Emails. Okay. Well, first of all, I have a bunch. I want to talk about like even how, um, and I want to talk about the Shark Tank pitches. Like you analyze like 500 of them, right?

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  495.

• 1:03:16Jen Cohen?

  And you notice which ones, why the ones that did well versus not?

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:03:20Jen Cohen?

  Okay. Talk about that. And then I'm going to get into the, I want to get into the science of personality, knowing like even like opposites. Like if you're a neurotic person, being with, I found that stuff.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  So interesting. I love it.

• 1:03:32Jen Cohen?

  That would be match making stuff for sure.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Like.

• 1:03:34Jen Cohen?

  We Shark Tank. And also just like in terms of like relationships in general.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  100%.

• 1:03:39Jen Cohen?

  It, it like, if you're in one and it's not working and why it's not working.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Jen Cohen?

  I think that was fascinating when I heard you talk about that stuff.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  The personality stuff is the basis of all of our relationships, right? So, okay, so we'll talk about Shark Tank and then personality. Is that good?

• 1:03:52Jen Cohen?

  Shark Tank and personality. Okay. I have all these other things. I want to talk about the interrupter, which I've interrupted you.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  No, we're talking. It's great.

• 1:03:59Jen Cohen?

  Okay, um.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  And popularity.

• 1:04:01Jen Cohen?

  And the science of popularity.

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh. Well, you got to pick. Which one are we going to do?

• 1:04:05Jen Cohen?

  Do the Shark Tank, but do it quickly so we can move on.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:04:08Jen Cohen?

  Okay. Don't stay on it forever.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, okay. So we analyzed 495 pitches on Shark Tank, looking for patterns. Very, very simply, the biggest pattern was dopamine. In other words, the pitchers that created some kind of interaction were the ones who did best. So they thought of some reason to pass out a sample, to touch, to go into the shark's intimate space. Cause the Shark Tank, remember they're all seven feet away. It's really hard to bond with someone when you're in the public zone. So we found that what would happen is they would cleverly think of ways to go very briefly into the shark's intimate zone or personal zone, and they immediately had more oxytocin.

• 1:04:41Jen Cohen?

  And that's, and that you noticed that the ones that did that.

• 1:04:43Speaker 02

  Were much more likely to get a deal.

• 1:04:45Jen Cohen?

  And also when they walked in, they did something.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  Their, their first impressions were really strong. So they had a grand entrance. Maybe that's what you meant by walk.

• 1:04:52Jen Cohen?

  Maybe.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  They were walking in. So like that when, from the very first moment that you saw them, they were walking and they were taking up space. They had lots of space between their ears and their shoulders. Oftentimes they would use some sort of a greeting hand gesture, like they would wave to a shark or say, "Good morning, sharks." There's something about it. Exactly. There's something about we like to be acknowledged. Sharks like it too. So when someone was like, Jay, I'm gonna pitch you an idea with no hand gestures, no open palm. We love an open palm. So that was like the biggest takeaway. Open palm, some kind of greeting, some kind of interaction, any opportunity you can have to go into someone's personal space or social space, not intimate, but social space, you're gonna produce more opportunities for connection.

• 1:05:29Jen Cohen?

  So walking in, doing some kind of hand gesture was a big one.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  Open palm, yep, having some kind of interaction if you can and having a greeting. Good to see you, Sharks. So happy to be here. Today I have a great deal for you.

• 1:05:40Jen Cohen?

  How about one that, was there anything about like, I noticed a lot of them, I love that show by the way.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  So good.

• 1:05:46Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. Um, when they hone in on one particular shark.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  Like always better.

• 1:05:51Jen Cohen?

  Is that purposeful?

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, we also found that if Shark would say something like, you remind me of myself, almost always they were gonna get a deal eventually. So there was something to like, like picking your target and giving them extra eye contact, extra nods, answering their questions first, right? Like, so it's good to have like a pick, like a target. Same thing in dating, I think too. Like, it's always good to have like a target that you're going after as opposed to like, I will date anyone. No, you wanna date the right person.

• 1:06:18Jen Cohen?

  Exactly. Okay, I know what I wanted to ask you before we moved on to these other things, which I think is really important is the priming. How do you prime people?

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  So that, that's exactly what we're talking about with the words. So like, when you mention words like collaborate, people are more likely to be collaborative.

• 1:06:32Jen Cohen?

  So that's what, so that's the definition of priming?

• 1:06:34Speaker 02

  Priming is when you set up people's behavior by priming them with the right cues, like a wall primer, right? Like you prime a wall so the paint is stickier. Words can prime interactions. So if I have an email or a text where I'm like, I'm so excited for tonight, are we still looking good?

• 1:06:50Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  I am priming for excitement and good looking.

• 1:06:54Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, good looking. So I love that. And then, uh, what was the other, oh yeah.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Oh, with a personality.

• 1:07:01Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, that was okay.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  Well, personality is a very big topic.

• 1:07:05Jen Cohen?

  I know, but I found it.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  You want to pick your favorite?

• 1:07:08Jen Cohen?

  I just find it to be so fascinating, like why certain relationships do well versus not. And like with the, again, if you, when you have this information, and also this can be like professional relationships.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  Oh, actually, the book I give example more professional relationships, even though it's really important for personal relationships.

• 1:07:25Jen Cohen?

  Right, because you could still, it's the same traits apply, right?

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:07:29Jen Cohen?

  Like if you, so let's talk, you talk about that?

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Yes, so there, so there's a lot of personality tests out there. Enneagram is very popular right now, DISC is very popular right now, Myers-Briggs. Those are all fine, but they're just not super backed up in research. Don't mean, doesn't mean they're not true.

• 1:07:46Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  They just haven't been replicated over large populations. The one that has is the big five. The big five has been replicated over and over again. It's like the standard in academic community for personality. And I basically have studied that there are five personality traits that everyone has. And you're either high, medium, or low on each of them. They're like a spectrum. So openness is how you approach ideas, creativity. Conscientiousness is your organization, your approach to details. Extraversion, so it's ocean, O C E A N. So I'm extroversion, um, how you approach people. Agreeableness, how you approach cooperation and teamwork. And my favorite, neuroticism, how you approach worry.

• 1:08:25Jen Cohen?

  And so like, for example, I think you were saying something about like even some, like what, this is a piece of information I saw. Like you're saying, if you're one person who's very open, like you want to try like a taco stand like down the street. Or how to like get to, if you want to like become, you know, fast friends with someone at a conference, right?

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:45Jen Cohen?

  You could easily see it and you ask someone else and they're like, well, I don't really want to go.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:50Jen Cohen?

  Those, those two, open person needs another open person.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  Yes, openness is like one of the most helpful. That's why I start with it in the book, which is if you want to know how open someone is, ask where you want to, where they want to go for lunch.

• 1:09:02Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  A high open person will be like, let's try somewhere new. Let's go to that new place I saw. That tells you a lot about them. That means that they're driven by new. They get bored easily. If someone's like, oh, I have my favorite place with my favorite dish, my favorite waitress, and I know exactly where to park. That's probably a low open person, like tradition, habit, routine. The way that you would approach them for pitching a new idea professionally, let's take it professionally, is very different. So a high open person, if I have a high open client, I'm pitching on new. I have a great new idea for you. You're gonna love it. It's gonna completely change the way you interact. A high open person is like turned on by that. They're like, yes, a new way to interact. A low open person is like, no, I don't want a new way to interact. I'm, I'm interacting just fine, thank you very much.

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  If it ain't broken, don't fix it. A low open person, I would say, listen, you're doing a great job with what you're doing. I have one little tweak that's gonna make things easier for you. It's proven by research. It's proven by other people. And if you make this one small change, it will help everything else be so much easier for you.

• 1:10:03Jen Cohen?

  How do you know if someone is or not all the time?

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  They wanna go for lunch.

• 1:10:07Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, that's exactly a great one. What if, what if you're not having lunch though? Or like even in a

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  So we have a research on our website, which has like, I call them behavioral questions. They're like questions you can ask to like suss out someone's personality. So like, things like, where do you wanna go for lunch? Things like, what are you, what are you doing this weekend? A high open person's like, oh, you know, there's this festival that we heard about like literally. So I'm a high open. Literally this weekend, I just got confirmation of my tickets. I'm so excited to a fairy festival. I'm taking my daughter. I've never been before. It's the botanical gardens and it's literally a, they put fairy figurines in trees. It sounds amazing. I don't know if it's gonna be amazing, but wow. So never gotten that before, but my high openness, that would tell you that I'm into high openness. High open person's like, they're trying something new. They're doing something new. A low open person's like, oh, well, every Friday I have dinner with my family.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  Saturdays, we always do pancake breakfast. Usually we have movie night.

• 1:11:00Jen Cohen?

  Routine regimen.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  Routine regimen. So that's gonna suss out some of those answers.

• 1:11:04Jen Cohen?

  What's the other ones that you said are not great? They're not compatible though. You said highly neurotic or

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  High neurotics and low neurotics are great together. So High neurotics, low neurotics, they can balance each other out really well.

• 1:11:14Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  Um, they found research shows that two low conscientious people in a marriage have financial problems.

• 1:11:21Jen Cohen?

  Totally. That makes sense.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  No one wants to pay the bills.

• 1:11:23Jen Cohen?

  So does it make sense? Okay. So is it true that opposites attract or not always?

• 1:11:29Speaker 02

  Not always. That's a cliche that isn't always true. Like sometimes high and low people drive each other crazy. Like actually, that's a really hard one in a marriage because high open people are like, let's try somewhere new.

• 1:11:38Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  That was really hard. So that was hard opposites, but low and high neurotics do well together typically. Not always, but typically.

• 1:11:45Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  Um, high and low conscious people drive each other crazy. The high conscious person is like, pick up your socks.

• 1:11:51Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Just freaking pick up your socks. And the low conscious person is like, my piles are organization.

• 1:11:56Jen Cohen?

  Well, what if you have a high conscientious, high conscientious but low open, like what if you have like?

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, that's that all exists.

• 1:12:03Jen Cohen?

  Right. So.

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  And that's the dynamics of marriages. Right? Like you can tell, you can solve so much dynamics of a marriage if you know people's personality traits and personality ratings. So for example, if someone is, if I know, like I, I have, I do the personality matrix for everyone in my life, right? I know everyone in my life's ocean and they know mine too, by the way.

• 1:12:20Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  Because if I'm like, okay, I have an employee, let's say, where I give them their personality test before I start and they are high in openness. Okay, great. They're going to want the new projects. I should give them new stuff, not as much old routine. They're going to get really bored.

• 1:12:34Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  Um, and they're, um, high conscientious. I cannot casually assign them a project. I have to make sure that if I'm going to send them a project, I am ready to go with details. So like, for example, I have a high conscious employee and if I were to say, hey, next week, um, I really want to talk about you, uh, coding our YouTube videos. She'd be like, okay, um, how do I do that? Is there a tutorial that I can watch? When do you want me to do that? Tuesday mornings or Monday mornings? And if I don't have those answers for her right then and there, it creates anxiety. So that way, knowing your people and how they're rating, you can predict what their needs are.

• 1:13:06Jen Cohen?

  Right. That's why I think this is so important, this stuff. Like it's, it's to me, I think there's just.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  And in matchmaking, if I was ever going to be a matchmaker, I would try to match people who I think are going to help each other. Like some opposites are helpful. Low neurotic and high neurotic are helpful. Low conscientious, high conscious, they can. Drive each other crazy, but they can also help the other, right? A low conscious person can help a high conscious person be more spontaneous. And that high conscious person can help the low conscious person be more organized. That can work if you're willing to learn.

• 1:13:33Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right. You have to, I feel like a lot of this stuff, though, like, there's always, of course, this, and this, it's never like an exact thing, but I find this to be so helpful in just in terms of personal relationships. Understanding this stuff.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  I mean, that is what took anxiety away from me, right? Like, my anxiety, my awkwardness comes from not understanding, not knowing, not knowing how to help my husband, not knowing how to predict my friends' needs, disappointing them. So when I felt like I had so much relief when I learned the personality matrix, because I was like, oh, I know what she's gonna want, because here's where she is.

• 1:14:08Jen Cohen?

  You so, you don't even seem awkward. I can't, you keep on saying that.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  I am. Ask my high school friends, they'll tell you.

• 1:14:13Jen Cohen?

  Really? Because you don't-

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  I didn't have any, there's no one to ask, but yeah.

• 1:14:16Jen Cohen?

  Come on. Well, that goes into the science of popularity.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:14:20Jen Cohen?

  What makes somebody popular?

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  It's funny, yes, this is a great, this is like a great, um, kind of sum up of everything we've talked about, which is, undersignaling is bad. If there's one thing you're gonna take away from this interview is, underqueuing, undersignaling, holding back is bad. It never serves you. It gets you into the danger zone. Same thing with popularity. So they wanted to know-

• 1:14:38Jen Cohen?

  Talk about the danger zone.

• 1:14:39Speaker 02

  The danger zone is, um, when we're sterile. That's when we're not warm or competent. We're not sending enough cues.

• 1:14:44Jen Cohen?

  And that's called the danger, yeah.

• 1:14:45Speaker 02

  That's called, that's what I call the danger zone. It's like, that's when people dismiss you. That's when people feel like they can't quite get a read on you. You're not warm or competent. Same thing in popularity. They wanted to know what makes kids popular. Now, what's funny about this, if you were to think about what makes kids popular, what would you guess? I know you know the answer to this, so what would you have guessed?

• 1:15:05Jen Cohen?

  Um, I would have, I would have guessed people who are, of course, open, that are, actually, a lot of it would be openness, um, friendly.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  Friendly, uh huh.

• 1:15:17Jen Cohen?

  Um, has an ease.

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, like, like, like casual, easygoing.

• 1:15:21Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  I also would have probably guessed pretty or handsome.

• 1:15:24Jen Cohen?

  Oh, you're talking about, okay, for girl, okay, for girls, I would say pretty.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:15:28Jen Cohen?

  For boys, I would say athletic.

• 1:15:30Speaker 02

  Right. So that's what most people think.

• 1:15:32Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  But actually, when they looked at it, and they did this across multiple schools, they had all the kids basically rate and rank each other and tell who their connections were so they could see literally who were the most popular kids. What they found, there was one difference. It didn't have to do with GPA, it didn't have to do with athleticism, it didn't have to do with prettiness. They also had them all ranked for attractiveness as well.

• 1:15:52Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  It had to do with the most popular kids had the longest list of people they liked. The most popular kids had the longest list of people they liked. In other words, to be popular, you have to work on liking more people. Not being pretty, not getting people to like you, they had the longest list of people that they liked.

• 1:16:16Jen Cohen?

  Why is that and how is that?

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  They found that those are the kids that would walk down the hallway and smile first, nod first, wave first. They were the kids who would say, hey, come sit with us.

• 1:16:26Jen Cohen?

  Like a Ferris Bueller.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:16:28Jen Cohen?

  Friends with everybody.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  And so like, that's, I think that we're trying, what I, my work, my mission in this world is trying to fight against holding back. Like, if you like someone, just say you like them. If, if you're with someone, assume that you're gonna like them. But I would always rather assume liking than try to be protective or ambivalent.

• 1:16:46Jen Cohen?

  Really? No, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm saying really in the, with the popularity stuff, like the more people, so the people who are, because you know that whole thing about like mean girls, right? Who are much more discretionary, discerning.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Mean girls are not the true popular girls.

• 1:17:01Jen Cohen?

  They're not the, really the popular girls. So the people who are friends.

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  They're known as mean girls.

• 1:17:05Jen Cohen?

  They're known as mean girls, but those are the groups that people wanna become friends with. Now, when you, when you did your research on science of popularity with young people, how did it change as you were getting older?

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  Me.

• 1:17:18Jen Cohen?

  No, for older people.

• 1:17:19Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 1:17:19Jen Cohen?

  Because you could be a, you could be a, a not popular kid, but be a super popular adult.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Jen Cohen?

  Could you not? I don't know.

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  I don't. I don't think this study actually looked into adults. It was purely teenagers.

• 1:17:30Jen Cohen?

  Purely teenagers.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  But I do think this is the same. Like, I think like at work, the people who we, who we think are popular, the ones who like say hi to us first, invite them, invite us out to lunch, like, they're the likers.

• 1:17:40Jen Cohen?

  The like, the ones that people like, yes.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  Those are the people I want to be with. And so when I read that study, I decided in that moment, I'm going to be a liker. I would rather say I like you and have you reject me than miss the opportunity of us liking each other.

• 1:17:53Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, absolutely. And that's good information for kids to hear too, right?

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  It's like, yes, a hundred percent. So that's like the kind of empowering. And I, I tried to write the books to be safe for kids and teenagers. Like, there's nothing in there that would be like inappropriate for them.

• 1:18:07Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Specifically because I, I wish that we had had more of this kind of communication work. Like, I wish that we'd had it in an empowering way.

• 1:18:14Jen Cohen?

  Super, super, like, I think it's, it's, it's so empowering. You know, I wanted to talk about a couple of different things too, like how to spot a liar, things like that, that I think is super valuable. Like, you talk about a lot, like Lance Armstrong in the book, A Rod in the book. Even like Britney Spears, you know?

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  Fun.

• 1:18:31Jen Cohen?

  Is there, can you just give a couple of different points of, of certain things like the how to spot a liar would be one of them? And then, well, let's just do that one first.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  That's a very big topic. I mean, honestly, I could have wrote a book just on that topic.

• 1:18:42Jen Cohen?

  Liars, yeah.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I was like, it's so negative. I, I decided to only keep it to one chapter.

• 1:18:47Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:18:48Speaker 02

  Because I was like, I was talking to my publisher, I was like, this could be its own

• 1:18:51Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  science stone book. And I was like, oh, the idea of doing a bunch of touring about how to spot that deceiver in your life, you know, I just was like, no, let's keep it to one chapter. So, um, we did a bunch of research in our lab on, uh, lie detection. Very simply, we had people submit two truths and a lie to us.

• 1:19:08Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I love this.

• 1:19:09Speaker 02

  So fun. Um, it was like such fun research to code. Two truths and a lie is a very simple game. You say two true statements about yourself and one lie, but you try to hide which one is the lie. And we coded them to see if we could find differences. And that was a lot of our lie detection research. We found differences in the lies. So I'll give you my favorite one, which is a vocal cue.

• 1:19:27Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  Which is that liars typically, on the lying statement, they asked it. So instead of saying the statement, they went up at the end of their sentence, like they were asking a question. Because they weren't sure if that was true. And liars, the research proves this, academic research, that liars don't believe what they're saying. So they're basically asking, do you believe me?

• 1:19:47Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  So I'll give you mine. Here's two, three statements about me. See if you can figure out which is the lie. I'm from Los Angeles. I love dogs. I'm a vegetarian.

• 1:20:00Jen Cohen?

  You're a vegetarian.

• 1:20:01Speaker 02

  Not a vegetarian. Right. That's

• 1:20:02Jen Cohen?

  Right. That's the what?

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  That's exactly how they

• 1:20:04Jen Cohen?

  Went up just a

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  Little bit.

• 1:20:05Jen Cohen?

  Octave. Yeah.

• 1:20:06Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's exactly what happened. So the lie made them a little nervous. So they went a little higher in their vocal power.

• 1:20:10Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  And they often went up their sentence like they were asking you. So that's the biggest thing.

• 1:20:16Jen Cohen?

  That's a big one. Yeah.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Look, listen for that if you accidentally hear the question reflection. And second, make sure that if I don't want to teach you how to lie better. That was the other part of this. But I don't want to teach you how to lie better. But if you believe in something, say it. Like a price

• 1:20:30Jen Cohen?

  Yep.

• 1:20:31Speaker 02

  Or a timeline. Don't say, the price of my service is $5,000.

• 1:20:35Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:20:36Speaker 02

  So the price of my service is $5,000.

• 1:20:38Jen Cohen?

  Cause then you're, you seem like uncertain.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. It's more important on delivery negotiations, asking for your raise, asking for promotion. Don't ask it, say it.

• 1:20:48Jen Cohen?

  That's a great thing. Cause when you have that voice, that octave going up, it sounds like you're asking permission.

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  Exactly. And you're begging people to negotiate with you. People subconsciously are like, she doesn't believe what she's saying. Should I believe what she's saying?

• 1:20:59Jen Cohen?

  Right. Let's give me another one. Like the pursing of the lips I know is one.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:21:03Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Pursing is another one. So lip pursing is a universal withholding cue. So we're like holding back. So like if I press my lips together into a hard line. So we found that and Lance Armstrong did this in his Larry King interview. That liars will often lip purse right before or right after a lie as if to be like,

• 1:21:22Jen Cohen?

  Don't give it away.

• 1:21:23Speaker 02

  Right. They'll be like, um, like mine would be, um, I'm from Los Angeles. I love dogs. And I'm a vegetarian.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  Like

• 1:21:33Jen Cohen?

  Right. You know what you just did also? Elizabeth Holmes did that all the time.

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  Yes, all the time. Yes. She had so many lying red flags.

• 1:21:41Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  She would give off.

• 1:21:42Jen Cohen?

  What, when you just did it, you look like her. I'm like, oh, my God. Well, if you purse those lips together. That's a big one.

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that, that's because I think she was constantly trying to hold it in.

• 1:21:53Jen Cohen?

  Our, okay. So is there any that are kind of, we haven't heard before? That's like, oh, very interesting. I've, I've heard the pursing of the lips before.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Um, there's so many. There's like, I would say 14 different like red flag cues to be on the lookout for. One, you haven't heard of them.

• 1:22:11Jen Cohen?

  Like when someone's deceiving you.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  Can I actually give a myth, which is much more empowering?

• 1:22:19Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  There's a horrible myth about lie detection that when someone looks up to the left, they're lying.

• 1:22:23Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  When they look up to the right, they're lying. That has never been repeated in research.

• 1:22:27Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  Never been repeated. In fact, like, do not use that because it will make you get false positives. Lefties often switch. There are people who process down. There are people who process up.

• 1:22:38Jen Cohen?

  That's true.

• 1:22:38Speaker 02

  And so you have to be very careful of the myths. There's no Pinocchio's nose, right? Like, if someone lip purses, it does not mean they're lying, right? That could be their baseline. I talk about this in the book, like how you protect yourself. So just keep in mind with lie detection, there's no, like, one single cue that means someone's lying. There's red flags. There's a cluster of red flags you can look for, but not one single cue.

• 1:22:57Jen Cohen?

  Is there, okay, so I feel like, is there anything else we can go through that's like you wanted to kind of speak about?

• 1:23:02Speaker 02

  Let's do the last one is, um, the how to stop interrupt, get someone to stop interrupting. Should we do that as the last one?

• 1:23:07Jen Cohen?

  Absolutely. Go ahead.

• 1:23:08Speaker 02

  That's kind of my favorite one.

• 1:23:09Jen Cohen?

  I know. I saw that one. I love that one.

• 1:23:11Speaker 02

  It's so fun. This is so practical. If you're interrupted, you have to know this. So this is if you are interrupted and you want to get someone to stop talking. This is also how you can politely interrupt, and this is also what you can do with an overtalker. So it's all the same skill, okay? So there's three different things you can do, and they go up in level of aggression, right? So level one is when someone's speaking and you want to get at word and you can... I call it the fish. I call it the fish. You just open your mouth slightly. We know this universal cue of like...

• 1:23:40Jen Cohen?

  Don't people do that naturally, though?

• 1:23:42Speaker 02

  No, especially because what happens is instinctively, if we're like, I want to talk, I want to talk, we go... We often will hold our mouth in to say, keep together. It's not your turn. It's not your turn. But that's actually the opposite of what you want to do.

• 1:23:55Jen Cohen?

  You're going to open your mouth.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's... Right, so that's a very, it works on video, too.

• 1:24:00Jen Cohen?

  That's a great one.

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  Sees it on video.

• 1:24:01Jen Cohen?

  Perfect.

• 1:24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially even if you're on mute, you can...

• 1:24:05Jen Cohen?

  What do you do on the phone?

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  Um, I think even like...

• 1:24:10Jen Cohen?

  Like breathing.

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  You can like hear it.

• 1:24:12Jen Cohen?

  Like, can't breathe.

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  I'm about to say something. I'm taking any breaths about to talk.

• 1:24:15Jen Cohen?

  That's okay. Yeah.

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  Fish, then the bookmarks. The bookmark is when you just hold up your hand just slightly. So like, you just, uh, excuse, excuse me, it's also like a pupil, like you're, you're holding your hand up. So what you can do is like... Like that you're just holding your hand up slightly. You can also pair them together.

• 1:24:34Jen Cohen?

  That's a good one, too. Yeah.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  And by the way, the longer someone talks, the more aggressive you can be with this, like literally like, like the higher your hand can go, like the more egregious it is. And lastly is a touch. If someone's like so in their own world talking, you can usually anchor them with like a

• 1:24:52Speaker 02

  very, very quick.

• 1:24:53Jen Cohen?

  And it works?

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it works. And by the way, if you've gotten to that point and they're still not talking, this is not the person you want to be in our conversation with.

• 1:24:59Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I mean, a lot of people are so completely unaware.

• 1:25:01Speaker 02

  Unaware. That's what like a touch is the final thing. If they don't get the touch and they don't wrap up in the next 10 seconds, this is a rude person. It's probably a narcissist.

• 1:25:08Jen Cohen?

  Absolutely. So is there a lot of difference between, I mean, there are traits that are narcissistic and charismatic. Aren't there a lot that kind of?

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  I think that there are. I don't know too much about narcissism. I haven't done that much research on it, but I think that confidence.

• 1:25:22Jen Cohen?

  Can be.

• 1:25:23Speaker 02

  So confidence is closer to narcissism than charisma, but narcissists can be charismatic.

• 1:25:28Jen Cohen?

  Usually very much are.

• 1:25:30Speaker 02

  Can be. I don't know. I would be curious to see the research if there's like a bigger overlap.

• 1:25:35Jen Cohen?

  I'm looking here again, because there's so many like, I didn't ask you all these other questions. Could you come back again?

• 1:25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. I come to LA all the time. I'm happy to.

• 1:25:44Jen Cohen?

  I mean, I have, I have all these.

• 1:25:45Speaker 02

  We could do part two.

• 1:25:46Jen Cohen?

  We could definitely do part two because like you have so much amazing information. I'm trying to like, just give like just a flavor.

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  Hopefully we gave a lot. This is one like, I always like to kind of end interviews on this idea, which is, yes, charisma is warmth and competence, but it doesn't mean that you have to be like a robot. Like there are 96 cues you can choose from. So as you pick them, you get to kind of pick your recipe. I think that's the fun part, right? Like, we don't all want to look and sound the same. That would be horrible. So I think the fun part of it is like picking the cues that make you feel good, like your unique flavor. And it's like, if everyone could just pick their unique flavor of charisma, I would be so happy.

• 1:26:25Jen Cohen?

  I mean, listen, you've been incredible as usual.

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:26:30Jen Cohen?

  You gave a lot.

• 1:26:30Speaker 02

  I love this.

• 1:26:31Jen Cohen?

  Stuff like, but it shows and you're like, super passionate about it, which is, which makes it why it's so good.

• 1:26:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:38Jen Cohen?

  Um, I am not, I'm not joking. You have to come back.

• 1:26:41Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, I'm back in LA all the time.

• 1:26:43Jen Cohen?

  Okay. So this is like, I love all the stuff.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  People like it. People like it.

• 1:26:47Jen Cohen?

  Oh, of course. I mean, tell people, okay, the first, her book is called cues. And like I said, the first one's called Captivate. So amazing, informative, helpful for any form of communication, really. Where do people find you if they want to know more about you?

• 1:27:03Speaker 02

  Yes. So I read the Audible books. If you like my vocal power. Um, so you can check Audible. It's on Amazon, wherever books are sold. I think it's still in airports. And then I'm at scienceofpeople.com. So if you want to see some of my cue breakdowns, I do Britney Spears, The Rock, Justin Bieber. You can go check out my YouTube channel and have a lot of fun on there.

• 1:27:20Jen Cohen?

  Amazing. Thank you so much.

• 1:27:22Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:27:23Jen Cohen?

  Bye, everyone.

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  Bye.