30: Overwhelmed Countering Mental Shut-Down, Losing Temper with your Wife, Loyalty to Co-workers vs Ambition

0:00:00 - Opening / Onnit.com/jocko 0:01:41 - The Aide-de-Camp Position, what it entails, and Jocko's experience. 0:17:14 - Martial Arts for a wheelchair user. 0:26:25 - Countering mental shut-down from being overwhelmed. 0:29:09 - Techniques for NOT losing your temper with your Wife. 0:46:51 - Balancing loyalty to co-workers/team-mates and career promotion 0:57:10 - Are there benefits to Team-building exercises and Retreats? 1:08:47 - Things Jocko regrets, would have done differently, or wishes he learned sooner. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 30 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink.

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  And what we have this evening is straight Q and A. The last podcast that we did on the outstanding book called Platoon Leader, A Memoir of Combat, of Command in Combat. It just took me a long time to get through. It's just a good book.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:35Jocko Willink?

  And I just kept every, I swear, you know, like every time, every page I read, I said, God, people gotta hear that. People gotta hear that. People gotta hear that. And then the next thing you know, you're two and a half hours deep.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  And since so much of it was pertaining to leadership, there was commentary with each section. And it was like, oh yeah, you know, this is what's going on here and I recognize that and I wish I would have known that. And that could help me here.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, went a little long. And that made us decide to just go ahead and turn that into one podcast. And now here we are coming back at you with, uh, Podcast Number 30, which is straight Q and A.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, there wasn't really one part of that book review that I was like, ah, you could have left that out.

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  In the industry, we call that getting after.

• 1:30Jocko Willink?

  Indeed. So let's, uh, let's take into some Q and A here. Some questions that we've been asked. You gonna kick this one off?

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:41Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles?

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Question number one. First question. Jocko, as an aide-de-camp, what were your duties? What did you learn? And why does that position still exist in the 21st century military? What's an aide-de-camp?

• 1:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So first of all, an aide-de-camp is something in the military that

• 2:04Jocko Willink?

  it's almost, I mean, to, to, to put it in a very simple way that people could understand it from, it's an assistant. It's like an executive assistant where for me, I was, I was the admiral that's in charge of all the SEALs.

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  I was his assistant. You know, that's what an aide-de-camp is. Now.

• 2:28Jocko Willink?

  The question is, why does that position still exist? Or what, you know, what did you learn? Well, I learned a ton. No doubt about that. Why does the position still exist? I think it's absolutely necessary. It's a good, it's a, it's not fun. It's not a fun job and I work for a great guy. Uh, but it's, but if you're working for somebody that's not a great guy, it's miserable. And even working for a great guy, it's not exactly the dream job. It wasn't for me. So here's what you do. The, the boss, which is what we call, this is what we called the Admiral. We called him the boss. Right? Um, so what we did was, what I did was the boss is always traveling and going different places, going to the Pentagon, going to visit outstations, going overseas, going, just constantly

• 3:12Jocko Willink?

  going on travel and visiting people and visiting troops. And so I was the guy that set up that travel. That's, that's what I did. I set up the travel and then, you know, communicating with wherever you were going to visit, like, hey, the Admiral's coming in. You know, what do you want us to do? Is there anything we need to be heads up on? So we'd take care of all that and set it up and make sure that the travel's smooth. Cause he's a really busy guy. It's like a CEO. You know, he's like the CEO of a big, giant, powerful worldwide company. That's what he is. And so you're trying to make the most of his time, make sure not wasting his time during travel. And so that's what I did. So that's, that's part of it.

• 3:53Jocko Willink?

  And the other piece that's cool is you're, you're kind of like a, a trusted advisor. Or you try and build the trust so that he trusts you. And they, they usually, in our case, they usually often tried to find guys that had come back from the front lines and use them as the, the aide. And so I had, when I became the aide, it was actually my commanding officer. He, uh, who's, who's, who's a friend of mine and who's a great guy that always took care of me. And, and he told me, he said, hey, my, my final mission as the commanding officer of SEAL Team Seven is to make sure that you become the aide to the Admiral.

• 4:39Jocko Willink?

  And you know, I wasn't happy about it because again, you're it's it's an it's an administrative job. It's you have to wear a uniform every day.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  When was this?

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  Two thousand five.

• 4:52Jocko Willink?

  And um, but it wa- it was it was a good call that the that my commanding officer made me go do it. Because I did learn a ton, you know, you you I've been in in the micro world of being in a SEAL platoon for my whole life. Right? So that's all I did. And so I didn't know anything else. I didn't understand anything else. So you go all of a sudden, you're you're dealing with not only do you see the big picture of the SEAL teams, but I saw the big picture of the army and a special operations command and big Navy, like the regular Navy. We interacted with them a lot. So I got to learn a ton. I learned a ton about what. I learned it's sort of like seeing behind the curtain. You know, you get to see behind the curtain, the wizard and the what's going on in the chambers.

• 5:36Jocko Willink?

  And basically, you know, like how they make the sausage. Have you ever heard that term? You know, they say when they make sausage, like you'll eat the sausage, it tastes good, but you don't want to see how they make it.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:47Jocko Willink?

  So that's I got to see how they make the sausage. I got to see behind the curtain. And I learned a ton of that. You know, I got to sit like there was meetings that I would sit in, super high level meetings with very powerful people in the meetings and I would just be sitting there listening and seeing how these judgments were being made and assessing the leadership and seeing what type of leaders we had at the highest levels of the Pentagon. And it was pretty, it was pretty interesting and I definitely learned a lot.

• 6:19Jocko Willink?

  Um, it it was not fun because like I said, there was a ton of travel. You're wearing a uniform all the time, which SEALs are pretty um, well known for not wanting to wear uniforms, real uniforms and and they're I'd probably worn a uniform.

• 6:38Jocko Willink?

  A very small number of times. I'm talking to my whole naval career. A dress uniform. I'd probably worn one fifteen times.

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  I I I don't know the number, but it's a tiny number. And all of a sudden, I'm at the working for the Admiral. I'm wearing a uniform every single day. And there were sometimes we'd go on a trip and I'd have to wear. There's multiple different dress uniforms in the Navy and in most of the services. We'd go on some where I'd have to bring two or three different dress uniforms. So my uniforms were always ready. That was that was one thing that not too many people could claim is you get really good at your uniforms.

• 7:14Jocko Willink?

  But there's there's also some things that are pretty restrictive, like for instance, you're actually not allowed to do personal favors for the boss. Like I I wasn't allowed because this idea, the military, they're very cautious that the military senior people might abuse people in the military.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  And like I wasn't allowed, for instance, I wasn't allowed to go pick up his laundry. Like if he got if he got his uniforms pressed and clean, I wasn't allowed to go and run to the store and pick it up if we were going on a trip or something. Like he wasn't allowed to do it. We weren't allowed to fly first class. There was only one time we we flew first class. That was we get upgrades after a while because we were traveling so much, but um.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  So both you guys couldn't or just the just the the A D camp?

• 8:09Jocko Willink?

  No, neither one of us. We wouldn't fly first class. Yeah, it's it's the military sort of.

• 8:17Jocko Willink?

  You know, we don't want they don't want there to be fraud, waste and abuse.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:21Jocko Willink?

  Which is actually ridiculous. This guy's the equivalent of a CEO of a big company and they don't they wouldn't get the guy first class. Tickets to fly from San Diego to Washington D C to go to the Pentagon and brief some senior governmental leadership.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. That's a good philosophy, though, the no waste thing.

• 8:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know. It's a good philosophy, but they should have. I think he'd earned it at that point.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  Thirty something years in the Navy.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, for that.

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  Serving his country and just be, you know, hey, you know what? This guy should be well rested when he shows up to brief Congress.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:50Jocko Willink?

  You know, so, um, that was that. And then the reason I think it's necessary again is because you got, you take a guy, you know, the, the Admiral. They're, they're not going to usually or often may not have been in recent combat situations. And so this aide that's coming in, he's coming off the battlefield. So he can say, hey, sir, what's going on here? Hey, sir, this is what this is like. Hey, sir, this is some gear that we need up on the front lines. Hey, sir, this is what the frontline troopers think about this program that we're doing or this, uh, rule that's being imposed upon us. We need to change this or we need to get it fixed. So I had a great relationship with, with, with the boss when I was running that job and,

• 9:31Jocko Willink?

  and it was very beneficial for me on my next deployment when I deployed Ramadi and I knew the Admiral. I mean, it was, you know, he's the guy that's in charge of all SEALs. And there I was in Ramadi and, you know, there was times where we talked directly, you know? Uh, he'd call me up and say, hey, what's going on? Or, you know, after my guys got killed, he, he called me up directly and, and that really meant a lot to me. And I think it meant a lot to him too, because he had a connection with the guys that were out there. Cause he knew me and, and knew, you know, knew me well. So I think that was, I think that was very important and I think it's a, it's a good job. I'm not going to say you're going to like it if there's troopers out there that are up for that job.

• 10:16Jocko Willink?

  You're not going to like it. If you're, if you're a hardcore getting after it kind of guy, you're not going to like the job. The people that, actually the scary thing is the people that volunteer and want to have that job are usually the guys the admirals don't want because that's a guy that's like focused on advancing his career and, hey, if I'm can be an aide, then I'll know the Admiral and then, and so you're not going to, those are the guys, the admirals actually, at least the Admiral I worked for, he didn't want any guys like that. He wanted guys that were going to say, oh, I, they, I want a guy that's going to come kicking and screaming to this job.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:46Jocko Willink?

  Because he doesn't want to swear a uniform, he wants to be in the field. I want to be in the field.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:52Jocko Willink?

  So that's, that's kind of, uh, the aide camp. So if there's a trooper out there that's, that's going to get pushed in that position, you know, you might have to do it and.

• 11:03Jocko Willink?

  And when you do it, you do the best that you can. When, when the guy that took over for me, he said, because I was, you know, I was, I've always been early to work. When I was working for the boss, I was even earlier because this is, you know, I've, I've felt this, this responsibility that, you know, I gotta take care of this guy. He's taking care of all the seals. I gotta take care of him. Right? This guy, the more, the easier I make his job, the easier I make his life, the more he can focus on taking care of all the guys that are in the field and all the seals. And so when I, I was get show up even earlier than I would normally show up and I was double and triple and quadruple check everything that was going on. And, and when the guy came to relieve me and take my place,

• 11:48Jocko Willink?

  and he said, he said, you know, hey, how does the, how does the boss react? If you drop the ball on something? And I said, I don't know. I don't know. I, I, I didn't drop the ball. I mean, that's, that was, you know, a lot of luck involved and I had some, some other guys that were with me that really helped me out. You know, one guy in particular is a civilian guy that is steady, works, has always worked there and worked there for a long time. And he was always covering my tracks and helped me not drop the ball, but he, I never dropped the ball.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's kind of a good answer though, to that question. Like, cause you know, if you were like, oh, hey, well, he doesn't take it so hard. Almost like they might plant something in his mind where it may not be as important every single time or something like that.

• 12:35Jocko Willink?

  It's important. Every time you can't drop the ball.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:37Jocko Willink?

  You gotta keep it going.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Is it ever viewed by, by people or whatever that that job's like kind of emasculating or something? Cause you're like, like, like an assistant more so than the, you know?

• 12:47Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I maybe, maybe somebody views it that way. But you know, I'm a military guy that got tasked with a job to take care of the senior SEAL officer and keep his day moving so he can take care of the troops. I don't, I think that's beneficial. Like,

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:03Jocko Willink?

  I, I didn't, I didn't feel that way. And the other thing is you're not, like I said, you're not allowed to do certain things. You're not allowed to do personal things for him. And even, and, and, and the guy that I worked for was very laid back and uh, I mean, and part of the reason he was laid back was because I never dropped the ball for him. I, I wouldn't want to drop the ball because I'm sure he would be angry.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:28Jocko Willink?

  Um, but.

• 13:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't a bad job.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, for I would I would think if you understand the value of the job, really understand the value of a job. Um, you you probably will never really feel emasculated or anything.

• 13:42Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  But I think, you know, sometimes some of us can go into jobs and be like, you know, I'm a I'm a leader, I'm not a helper, you know, kind of kind of attitude.

• 13:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it's interesting too, because when you're working for the Admiral, then when you speak, you kind of, kind of, you kind of speak for the Admiral. So in other words, when I'd go in to talk to some senior captains and I said, hey, can I get a copy of XYZ? They knew it wasn't me that wanted it. They knew it was the boss that wanted it.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:14Jocko Willink?

  So people are snapping too. So it was pretty, it was interesting from that perspective, even though I was a young lieutenant at the time. I'd go in and say, hey, can we get this? Uh, we need this report. And the guys would be like jumping to like full captains would be jumping to because they knew that it wasn't for me. And they respected the boss and they wanted to help him out. So it was you do you you get a little bit of added weight. Because people know, especially because people kind of knew we had a good relationship. And so they knew that if I was asking for something or I needed something or I was suggesting something. They knew where it was coming from. They knew it was coming from the big boss, man.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  So it's kind of like, like the executive assistant to like Oprah or something.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, look, uh, no.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Alright, there you go.

• 15:00Jocko Willink?

  We're not going to talk about the person that you just talked about on this podcast. It's not happening.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Alright, gotcha.

• 15:09Jocko Willink?

  Error, error.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, you know, if you go around and you're like, hey, I need.

• 15:16Jocko Willink?

  I would say it would be the equivalent of being the executive assistant to a very powerful CEO that has a lot of, that has a lot of stress and decisions to make and has a large global corporation.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:33Jocko Willink?

  In their, under their command.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Actually, that kind of reminds me of the the whole flying first class thing. And I thought about this where there was a big part of me that thought, oh, yeah, a lot of guys, they'll just fly first class just because that's like a sadist thing. And like, oh, yeah, I'm this high, so I get to you kind of live in this luxury, but.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Flying first class eliminates a lot of stress and a lot of um like decision making and headaches. You know, we're contending with certain things.

• 16:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  So when you arrive, you have way less on your mind. So and that that that's a lot. You ever had you ever had to do something or convey some important message, but you have a lot on your mind? Some other stuff. It's it makes it way harder.

• 16:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, then I just prioritize and execute.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Right. I know, but every it it has its function is what I'm saying.

• 16:19Jocko Willink?

  It does. It does. And there was the the time that the literally the one time we were authorized. And executed a first class travel was when we flew to Europe and the when we arrived at six o'clock in the morning. The boss or seven o'clock in the morning, the boss was talking to the troops. A half an hour later and then the whole day was scheduled about talking to the local senior leadership. So he needed to be rested when he showed up there.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:47Jocko Willink?

  Now, me on the other hand, if I remember correctly, I was in the chief seat.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  But you don't really need that much rest.

• 16:54Jocko Willink?

  Cause a young lieutenant can just suck it up. Cause it is pretty pathetic. We're sitting here talking about first class. Do we you know what? Let's just talk about Bob Hoffman. You know what I mean? World War One trench warfare.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:06Jocko Willink?

  I don't think he's too worried about flying first class.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he had a lot of decisions to make.

• 17:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So yeah. So let's just suck it up.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Suck it up. All right, next question. Jocko, do you have a suggestion for martial art for a wheelchair user? I'm considering FMA, just Filipino martial arts, or Krav Maga. I want exercise and self-defense.

• 17:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, again, this is as usual, my first suggestion for true. Self-defense to protect yourself from the world and the evils of the world. Concealed carry. You know, get a weapon, learn how to shoot a weapon, spend time at the range, train, train with it is a mar. Shooting a weapon is a martial art. Carrying a weapon is a martial art.

• 18:01Jocko Willink?

  Knowing how to use that weapon in various situations. It is a martial art. So shooting is a martial art. And so that's the most effective martial art to know and to have the possession of is.

• 18:17Jocko Willink?

  Concealed carry, carry weapons. So, again, I'm not saying that just because this individual's in a wheelchair. Because, I mean, obviously, being in a wheelchair does put you at a disadvantage. But, it doesn't matter wheelchair or not, there's always gonna be somebody that's bigger and badder than you. And if there's not somebody that's bigger and badder than you, then there's three or four people combined together that make a person that's badder than you. That's called a gang. And, I will tell you right now, any three people in the world can beat anyone in the world in a fight. Like, three on one, you're gonna lose.

• 19:01Jocko Willink?

  Now, can you get a guy that knocks somebody out, turns around, I mean, it does happen? But if the people that are attacking know anything, you have a really bad chance. Really bad chance of winning. It's very tough to win a fight three on one. So, train with firearms, get a gun. And, you know, also, and you mentioned the Filipino martial arts? And, and I, I sometimes fail to mention this, uh, to carry a knife. But yeah, you should absolutely have a knife. You should know how to use it. So, that is your Filipino martial arts generally, learning to use a knife and carry a knife. And then, what do I, what am I gonna do after that?

• 19:43Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna do the same thing I always talk about. Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, wrestling, and Muay Thai. Kind of in that order. Now, Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai. We start with Jiu-Jitsu, we move on to boxing, we learn wrestling, and we learn Muay Thai. Sometimes Muay Thai and wrestling, you can flip back and forth which one you wanna focus on, but, but the, the deal is with all three of those, you have to adapt them to the situation that you're in. Whatever that situation is. Now, if you're in a wheelchair, I don't know what this is gonna look like for you. I don't know what that looks like. You gotta learn it, you've gotta understand it, you've gotta, then you gotta make things work. You gotta figure it out, you gotta test it, you gotta see what's effective, and you gotta see what isn't effective. And, you have to adapt. You have to adapt. And I've trained with

• 20:28Jocko Willink?

  All kinds of different people that have their own obstacles to overcome. I've trained with guys that have amputees, missing one leg, two legs, missing arms. I've trained with people that are blind. I've trained with people that are paralyzed. I've trained with people with traumatic brain injuries.

• 20:53Jocko Willink?

  And they all work and try and figure a way, and they do figure ways to adapt. I mean, you've got guys like Kyle Maynard, you know who that is?

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 21:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's got no arms and no legs. And he trains jujitsu and he wrestled. And he wrestled in high school. Like, he competed and he's competed in jujitsu. He's actually competed in MMA as well, which is, which is crazy. But you know what? He adapts to the situation that he's in.

• 21:23Jocko Willink?

  Man, there's Anthony Robles.

• 21:28Jocko Willink?

  He's a NCAA 125-pound champion, champion. And by the way, he has one leg. I mean, one leg. His other leg is gone, like, from the hip down. One leg. And he won the NCAA championship. That's incredible.

• 21:50Jocko Willink?

  And he just adapted. I mean, you've got Jean Jacques Machado, he's got one hand. Jeffrey Al. Jeffrey Al, he trains with us. He's got one hand. His other hand's gone. He was born with no hand. Oh, guess what? Now, all you jujitsu players out there, that you think about when you're doing jujitsu with the gi and think of how much you grab, when you're training with Jeff, you don't even know that he doesn't have a hand. You just don't even know. He just does other stuff. He's adapted to it. As a matter of fact, he uses that stump to choke you and attack you.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Gets in there.

• 22:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he sneaks that thing in there.

• 22:27Jocko Willink?

  What about Max, Maximilian?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:30Jocko Willink?

  You know Max, right?

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Wheelchair.

• 22:31Jocko Willink?

  Max, he's paralyzed.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  But, and that's recent, too.

• 22:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  You know, it's, you know.

• 22:37Jocko Willink?

  He got paralyzed, what, three years, five, four years ago, five years ago?

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Something like that, yeah.

• 22:41Jocko Willink?

  He was like maybe a white belt, maybe a blue belt, he's a blue belt.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  I think he's purple now.

• 22:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think he's a purple now, but, I mean, he's got, basically, I think it's about sternum down. He's completely paralyzed, sternum down.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:53Jocko Willink?

  And he, so he's figured out, he actually has to move his legs, you know, like, when he's, when you're rolling with him, he's gotta grab his legs and move them into different positions.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:03Jocko Willink?

  Which is, uh, which is crazy, but he's still training, he's advancing in his, and he's learning to adapt, he knows, he knows how to choke you, he, he's figured things out. So, whether you're short or tall, big or small, older, young, strong or weak, wheelchair, no wheelchair, leg, no leg, learn it. Learn it all, and start with jiu-jitsu, learn some boxing, some Muay Thai, then wrestling, and then once you get that base built up, start looking at Krav Maga, start looking at Kali, so you can learn, you know, if you wanna learn weapons, and obviously, from the beginning,

• 23:43Jocko Willink?

  the firearm trumps everything.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, especially when, when you're training with, um, like, any kind of disadvantage or whatever, I think it's important to understand what your potential goal will be in a self-defense situation. So, if you're, you know, like, if you don't have legs like Max, for example, like, you can learn a lot of stuff that is just defensive. And if you know jiu-jitsu, and I'm gonna sound like a jiu-jitsu advocate, which I am, but, if you learn jiu-jitsu, you'll learn how to be defensive, how you can shut down another guy's attacks. And, so, like I said, like, if you're, like, your disadvantage is pretty big, just understand what your goals

• 24:27Speaker 01

  will be in a potential self-defense situation, you know, so you're not gonna be like, okay, I'm gonna learn these martial arts so I can. Kick as much ass as I possibly can.

• 24:37Jocko Willink?

  That's the point. The point of this is that you have to adapt.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:43Jocko Willink?

  You have to adapt. You have to say, okay, this is what I'm able to do and this is, I can't do that move, but I can do this move.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:48Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, you can't do this, but I can do that.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:51Jocko Willink?

  And you know, like, like we were just talking about Jeffrey Al. Jeffrey Al is a guy I trained with the most regularly out of the, out of these folks and he has adapted and does things that you, that is totally unique to him. And he makes an advantage. He takes a disadvantage, turns it into an advantage.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah, there's an MMA guy who, who was the champ in one of these shows. I for- I forget. It might have been Bellator, maybe. I don't know. I forget. Um, but he was, uh, he had one hand too. He was the champ though.

• 25:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. How do I not know who that is?

• 25:21Speaker 01

  I forget his name too, but it was a while. It was like maybe a year ago or something or more.

• 25:25Jocko Willink?

  A while ago, a year? MMA's been around for 20 plus years in America.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  You know, the current champ is always seems so new, you know?

• 25:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, uh, that's awesome. That's, that is definitely, uh, outstanding to see people overcome that and

• 25:43Jocko Willink?

  in what you can do. You just gotta have that, that, that

• 25:49Jocko Willink?

  the creative mind to get in there and adapt to the situation.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, and it goes along with kind of what, um, I think it was, I forget who, but, um, how they say, you know, a little exercise is better than no exercise, you know? So sometimes like if you, if you find yourself in a wheelchair or something like this where he'll be like, oh yeah, that's not for me. But this obviously is for him, you know? So get out there and like how you said, like learn something or learn it all, whatever. That's better than not knowing nothing.

• 26:18Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Way better too.

• 26:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it is.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Especially if it's future too.

• 26:24Jocko Willink?

  Good. Get after it. That's it.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Next question. Jocko. Mr. Jocko. Whenever I get mentally overwhelmed, I shut down completely. How do I counter that?

• 26:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, the first thing and the first good step that you've already made is you've identified this is an issue. You recognize the fact that you shut down. That's step number one in solving your problem is identifying your problem. So excellent work there. The next step is actually pretty easy as well. You've identified the fact that you shut down. The next step that you're going to do is not shut down. Not mentally shut down. That's what you want to do. If you start to shut down and you feel yourself freezing up, say, "I'm not going to shut down right now. I'm going to attack this issue." Now, the reason that you're getting overwhelmed most likely is because there's a lot of different things flying at you at the same time and they're all happening at once and it's problematic for you. We have a very simple solution for that. It's prioritize and execute.

• 27:23Jocko Willink?

  So what is the biggest problem that you've got going on? Let's identify what that biggest problem is, then let's attack that problem and get it solved. Once we got that one solved, we can move on to the next one. Once we get to take care of that one, we can move on to the next one. We go right on down the line. That's, that's what we do. That's very simple. You know that you're going to get overwhelmed. First of all, tell yourself you're not going to get overwhelmed. Then you actually don't get overwhelmed. And how do you not get overwhelmed? You prioritize and execute. If you start feeling yourself getting overwhelmed, do what I did to the platoon commander that I had that was getting all freaked out during, during Humvee IAD drills, immediate action

• 28:07Jocko Willink?

  drills where you're patrolling through the desert and we have little electrical targets that pop up and then you, everyone starts shooting at the targets and this guy was locking up and not making any decisions even though he's the leader. Hmm. And this is the one where I took a magic marker and I wrote on, with a Sharpie, right in front of his face on the Humvee window. I said, "Next time the shooting starts, here's what I want you to do. Number one, relax. Number two, look around. Number three, make a call." It's really easy. So step number one, when you're getting overwhelmed, relax. Hmm. Relax. Breathe. Take a step back. Just take a step back. The red flags start going off in your head and you're realizing that you're getting overwhelmed

• 28:52Jocko Willink?

  and you're going to get shut down? No. Just take a step back, relax.

• 29:00Jocko Willink?

  And then prioritize and execute. Pretty simple.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Make a call.

• 29:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  It's good.

• 29:07Jocko Willink?

  Simple.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 29:12Jocko Willink?

  Let's do it.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  What technique do you use to not lose your temper with your wife?

• 29:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  When you know she's wrong and refuses to budge?

• 29:22Jocko Willink?

  Well, this is kind of a... This question is actually moot because my wife is never wrong.

• 29:30Jocko Willink?

  So, so number one, losing your temper. Losing your temper is

• 29:36Jocko Willink?

  weak. It's actually weak. It's actually weak to lose your temper. It actually is a loss of control. When you lose your temper and losing control is also weak. So, we don't, we don't want to lose our temper. That's, that's one of our goals. So, again, just like prioritize and execute. What do you do when you start feeling yourself losing your temper? Stop, take a step back, detach from it, breathe. And then you gotta think about the long-term victory. And we've talked about this before. We've talked about this before. Proving that you're right to your wife is not necessarily the best goal to have.

• 30:20Jocko Willink?

  What you want to do is you wanna, you wanna win the war. Not that one battle, the one battle doesn't even matter. I mean, what is this stupid argument about anyways? It's not about something that matters. It isn't. I can almost guarantee it's not about something that matters. It's about some random thing that doesn't matter in the big picture at all. So, why are you getting upset about it?

• 30:48Jocko Willink?

  Why are you losing control? Why are you losing your temper? You can't do that. You can't do that. So, when you feel like you're coming up against the, this is Sun Tzu, you know, you're going against a heavily defended position. Don't attack the heavily defended position. If your wife is not admitting that she's wrong, she's refusing to budge, what if you, what are you doing when you're attacking her? You're actually attacking a heavily defended position. Sun Tzu told you not to do that 25, 100 years ago and it holds true to this day. So, what are you gonna do when they're, when they're not budging? You're gonna flank them.

• 31:23Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna flank them. You're gonna move around to the outside and come in from another angle that they weren't expecting.

• 31:32Jocko Willink?

  You know, maybe that other angle looks like flowers. Maybe the other angle looks like dinner. Maybe it looks like, maybe it just looks like changing the subject to something that they can be more flexible mentally on.

• 31:47Jocko Willink?

  Because

• 31:50Jocko Willink?

  if you, if you go against that hardened position, I can almost guarantee you it's not gonna, they're not gonna budge on it. And, and all you, what you're gonna do to try and get them to budge is you're gonna escalate yourself. Oh, you're not budging, I'm gonna hit it harder. Oh, you're still not budging, I'm gonna go even harder. You're still not budging, I'm gonna go even harder. There, that whole time, every time you're going harder, they're digging the defenses in deeper, deeper, deeper.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Yep. And they're remembering how

• 32:17Speaker 01

  how mean you were, or whatever, especially if you're in a, in a lost temper situation.

• 32:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, now you're, now you're taking serious detriment to your long-term war.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:26Jocko Willink?

  Because you've, now you've given them ammunition. You've given them ammunition for future use.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Bad move.

• 32:32Jocko Willink?

  It's a bad move. Uh, so

• 32:36Jocko Willink?

  again, what isn't, what, the, who's right and who's wrong is just not important. It's so hard to get through people's head. Who's right and who's wrong on some little tactical babble, battle of today that really has no bearing on anything in the world? This is not something to be concerned about.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:55Jocko Willink?

  So it might be your own ego that wants to be right. Have we thought about that factor? Have we thought about that? You, as a man, as a husband, you wanna be right too? So guess who the person that isn't budge? Guess who the person that doesn't budging is? It's you. It's you. Now you might be quote unquote, right, but it doesn't matter. You're the person that won't budge. Now neither one of you will budge. Neither one of you will budge. We're not in a good situation. We're just in an escalating war of destruction.

• 33:30Jocko Willink?

  And we don't want that because we want to win the long term strategic war. That's what we're looking at. Just the long term strategic war, the little stuff in between we just not concerned about.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, fully in in the whole not budging thing too. Like that that hurts. And I used to think about this early on in my relationship where I would get, we'd get in like, you know, little arguments or whatever. Um, varying levels and sometimes she would like

• 34:01Jocko Willink?

  Look, can you even come up with an example of something you'd argue about? Because as I was trying to think, as I was sitting here, as I was answering this question, I was trying to think of a good example. I can't even think of a good example. Because they're all so stupid.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah, good example. No.

• 34:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's hard.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Not really. Um.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  But so she would be like, oh, I just don't want to talk about it anymore. But meanwhile, I'm still salty. Like, hey, we didn't resolve this.

• 34:31Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's certain code words.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Like a buzz, like a safe word?

• 34:35Jocko Willink?

  That girls, that women, that guys have it too. But in particular, I've noticed it with some of my friends' wives. And one of my wives, she'll say, doesn't, it doesn't matter.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  What do you mean buzzword, like a code word, like a safe word?

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  It's a red flag. So I'll give an example. It'll just be a, it'll be a giant red flag that she's, that she's angry. She doesn't, nothing I say is going to matter anymore. She's not going to change her mind and she's just going to go forward. And she'll be like, oh, it doesn't matter. I'm like, oh, okay, well, warning.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:08Jocko Willink?

  Big H is angry. That's what it means. So when I hear her say it doesn't matter, I just realize, okay, I'm, now I just hit it in a heavily defended position. And I'm going to stop attacking it.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 35:20Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to flank. I'm going to talk about something else. I'm coming in from the side hatch. That's what I'm going to do.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, man, I wish I would have known that long time ago. I think that when

• 35:32Jocko Willink?

  Wait, what did you just say that your wife said to you? Because you just said a code word. I mean, a

• 35:38Speaker 01

  I don't want to talk about it.

• 35:39Jocko Willink?

  I don't want, there you go, that's another one. Yeah, I don't want to talk about this, that's, that's, that's a red flag.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Well, in my mind, it was like, yay, let's talk about it. I, I try, would try to do it in a conducive way, like, you know, like a problem solving kind of way. But she, she just didn't feel the same way about the whole situation, you know, she handles it different. And, you know, ultimately, I still feel like if two people are willing to talk it out, kind of without too much emotion, I think that's, that's an effective way to do it. But nonetheless, what this would cause is, and this is going back to, um, people not budging. So what that would cause is all this time that would go on that we're not on good terms, you know? Because I want to talk about, she doesn't want to talk about it, she just wants to, I don't know, go to bed, you know? Meanwhile, I'm with the philosophy of don't go to bed in an argument or whatever, you know? But meanwhile, we're at odds, even just a little bit.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Even if we don't talk about it, she forgets about it, I'm still at odds, I'm not budging with my philosophy, you know? So, at the end of the day, when you look back at all the minutes, all the hours, all the days, um, that you've spent with each other, and now you have that, that, that sum of, of moments that you're at odds? You look at your relationship, you're like, man, this relationship isn't that good. Because you spent that much time at odds with each other.

• 36:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Just because you didn't want to budge.

• 36:57Jocko Willink?

  Budge.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:58Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta budge.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  You gotta budge.

• 37:01Jocko Willink?

  One of my buddies, I was hanging around him and his wife, and, uh, her, her little buzzword, where I was like, oh, I picked up on it pretty quickly. She would say, that's fine.

• 37:13Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, and at first, you know, first couple of times, I was like, oh, it's fine with her. And then I realized it does not mean that's fine.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  I think, yeah, man, I think that's kind of com- a co- a common knowledge one, though. With girls, like, you can look that up.

• 37:25Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't matter, that's fine.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Fine, whatever.

• 37:28Jocko Willink?

  Well, whatever's offensive, though.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, and then.

• 37:31Jocko Willink?

  Like, what they know, if they say whatever, then that, that means that's fighting words. Cause if you'll notice, that's fine, and it doesn't matter.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:39Jocko Willink?

  They are all, they are all, uh...

• 37:43Jocko Willink?

  Like sort of passive.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:45Jocko Willink?

  A way of saying like, oh, let's just move on.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:49Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to talk about it. That one's a borderline.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, or it's like, or it's like one of the, I don't know.

• 37:55Jocko Willink?

  So, so what's good is when you're, when you detach from these situations, you start to pick up on these things that your significant other, and also there's, when you're in a relationship, you're in a team building environment, or a team environment, or you're in a business, you start to realize that guys or people you work with will have the same thing.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, they'll say, you know what? It's your call.

• 38:15Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I, I know it's my call, but I'm not trying to impose this plan on you. Let's, let's figure it out. No, it's your call. Well, go ahead.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:23Jocko Willink?

  So that means you clearly don't agree with it. Of course, you can't say this to them because they're already dug in on the fact that you're, you know that you're wrong.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:30Jocko Willink?

  So those are the little red flags you gotta look out for in the world.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so and even back and, and that's fine. And even that, that's a complex thing because you know when someone says,

• 38:42Speaker 01

  fine, you know, or what's wrong, what's wrong? Nothing, right?

• 38:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Even though you know, or you have reason to believe that it's not fine, especially the find or that's fine. You have good reason to believe that it's not fine, right? So in your mind, it's logical to think, hey, you shouldn't say you're fine when you're not fine. You actively chose to say you're fine when you're not fine factually. So it's easy to come to that logical conclusion, but.

• 39:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's, there's your problem.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:11Jocko Willink?

  Logical conclusions.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  I know, it's just, it's not that simple. It's not that black and white. So, and I'm saying this because I kind of, up until really recently, I thought that, hey, look, I'm not really wrong with this thing. I asked you this very specific question. If you're saying you're fine, it's, it's like, it doesn't even matter what you say. I have to read like your, your mind or your, your body language and like everything, you know? And disregard your words and only under these circumstances, not when you, when I say, hey, do you need?

• 39:45Speaker 01

  I don't know, milk from the store, you say no, I know you mean yeah, you know, it doesn't work like that. It's only under the circumstance. So it's like, eh, I'm thinking, hey, man, that's kinda, that's not very good. That's, that's a bad thing and habit to get in. So if you're not fine, you should say you're not fine. That's my logic is what I'm saying. But here's the thing, when you're in a, a relationship with someone and it start, I understand it starts at the beginning where you're trying to figure all this stuff out. That's what the beginning of a relationship for. But after a while, you start to know, okay, I know that tone. I know when you say fine, it's not fine.

• 40:14Jocko Willink?

  What, the thing that's jacked up is when people don't realize that.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  What, that, that?

• 40:19Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's a code word that means something else.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 40:22Jocko Willink?

  And what it's signifying is you are coming up against a heavily defended area. I'm not changing my mind, but I'm not gonna sit here and argue about it. So you know what? Doesn't matter is what my wife would say.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it doesn't matter.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Bro, man.

• 40:37Jocko Willink?

  It matters.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  When, when Sarah would say, I don't wanna argue, I don't wanna argue about this. It's, it's fine, let's not talk about it. That would enrage me for, further, not like, I'm not a lose temper kinda, whatever, but, um.

• 40:50Jocko Willink?

  It would frustrate you.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  It would make me, well, I'd be like, no, we have to go to, it's like, you know, if you have like fucking, like a, like, like a splinter. Like if you have a splinter in your, in your hand or something, not talking about it is like, I just leave it. Let the skin grow over it and you're, you'll be fine. And the thing is, you probably will be fine, but you still got that splinter in there. Me, I'm like, okay, let's talk about it, let's open it up and get the splinter out. But she's like, no, you know?

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  I can't always recommend ripping that splinter out.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and.

• 41:22Jocko Willink?

  Cause sometimes the, again, you're going up against a, a hardened defensive area. And that's what we're talking about here. That's what the question is. The question is, how do you not lose your temper with your wife when you know she's wrong? And she refused to punch, you know how you, you know how you don't do it? You know how you maintain your temper? You realize that you're in a, you're in a strategic situation where you're just gonna win strategically. You're gonna outsmart, you're gonna outmaneuver, you're gonna outmanipulate. I'm sorry, you're gonna manipulate the situation, that's what you're gonna do.

• 41:55Jocko Willink?

  And you're gonna make her think, you know what? Man, I was kind of a jerk last night to my wonderful husband.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:04Jocko Willink?

  That's what we want to happen.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta do it in this genuine way, you know, like if you come off real genuine and open and and warm, no one wants to attack you when you're in that state, you know, so that's what you do.

• 42:17Jocko Willink?

  You need to meet my wife.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  No, I'm telling you, maybe if you switch all of a sudden, and she's like, it is the trick, but if you're like, if you put it on.

• 42:26Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you're just disarming them.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Right, yes, exactly. You disarm them, but man, it's hard to do when you lose your temper.

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  I, I answered a question the other day, I was at an event, and I answered a question. I was like, listen, do not take marriage advice from me.

• 42:42Jocko Willink?

  Cause the question will, it's a long story, but the question was about, you know, how do you do your job when you have all this pressure and how do you maintain your family? And I kind of went through the story of like, hey, you know, my family came second. And that's really hard for people to understand. And I went through the whole thing. And I got to the end and I said, listen, don't take marriage advice from me. And everyone kind of laughed, but uh, but i- in a situation like this, actually take marriage advice from me.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 43:13Jocko Willink?

  Don't attack defended positions. I've said that forty seven times right now.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's not to say that you've never attacked defended posi- I don't know if you ever have it with your wife, but I'm just saying that sounds like good, objective advice.

• 43:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't, I probably haven't done that in so long. It's like, it's like when we got asked on the podcast, when is the, we got asked this on the podcast, when is the last time that you were dug in on a, on a position and how did you admit that you were wrong? And I was like, oh man, I haven't been dug in on a position in years. I don't even remember.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:46Jocko Willink?

  So it's the same thing here. Why do I attack my wife in a defended position, something that she's super crazy and passionate about? I'm not going near that thing.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, the losing your temper thing too, man. I, I'd learned, and I said, I mentioned this before where I'd learned about just getting mad in general from this book called Mind Games. It was teeny tiny little book, one chapter was not even one page.

• 44:08Jocko Willink?

  That could be your first review on the podcast. You can be the reviewer.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Some of them were like puzzles, you know, to see how your mind works. Anyway, so, but it, what it did was indicate that.

• 44:18Jocko Willink?

  Was there Plinko involved?

• 44:22Speaker 01

  No, bro, that's prices, right? Anyway, what it indicated was that losing your temper or having anger issues, anger management issues was is it will it was a result of low self-esteem.

• 44:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  So.

• 44:35Jocko Willink?

  And you're like, I don't have those.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Exactly right. And that's how I always felt when, you know, in like elementary school, intermediate school, when you they talk about self-esteem or whatever and slow self-esteem, high self-esteem. I'd be like, man, that's so embarrassing to have low self-esteem. It was like almost like a pride thing, you know, where I would, even if I really felt like doing something or whatever, I if it indicated overtly that I had a low self-esteem, if I did, I wouldn't do it. It was like really.

• 44:59Jocko Willink?

  Man, do you think that paranoia was caused by a low self-esteem?

• 45:03Speaker 01

  In a way, probably. So it's like the, you know, the old switcheroo there.

• 45:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  But so now I took that like times two where it said, look, everyone gets angry. It's a natural part of life. But if you have anger management issues, it is most likely from a low self-esteem. So I took that as if I ever get angry, that's low self-esteem. So, man, that would be on my mind every single time. Where anytime I felt myself getting mad, I'd be like, nope, I have a low self-esteem. So what I did, though, is train me never to lose my temper.

• 45:31Jocko Willink?

  That's how you got so laid back, bro.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I was always laid back, but but anyway, it's I think that's kind of the thing to check, though, you know, where

• 45:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  If you're losing your temper all the time, it's like, man, what's what's up with you losing your temper?

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  Don't lose your temper. That's Yeah. For sure.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Hey, you know, that splinter analogy I gave?

• 45:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, man.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Bro, I'm telling you. Okay, so this one time, and it wasn't me, it was Jake. He had a splinter. We were young. He had a splinter in his hand. We were like young, young, like like five.

• 46:02Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  I know this because we're living in the specific house that I remember. Anyway.

• 46:05Jocko Willink?

  You need to tell us about the house.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Anyway, he had a splinter and it was deep. So uh my mom's like, hey, we gotta get it out. We gotta, you know, use like a tweezers or something. He's like, no, no, no. And he put up this full on, what do you call it? Like a pardon defense.

• 46:20Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  We're not getting that splinter out because he's crying, he's scared, you know, all this stuff. So what my mom did was, all right, you know, let's don't take out the splinter. What he did, what she did was wait for him to go to sleep. She knew you just take out the splinter. It may or may not hurt for like a second, but it's out. Who cares? Wait, waited for him to go sleep, like a little nap. She goes in there gently and just takes it out. Boom, problem solved. Splinter out.

• 46:43Jocko Willink?

  Basically Mama Charles.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Flanked him.

• 46:45Jocko Willink?

  She flanked him.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Totally flanked him then.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Good job, Mo.

• 46:51Jocko Willink?

  Props to, props to Mo Mo Charles.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 46:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes, please. Good Lord.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  How do you balance loyalty to your workmates and a personal sense of honor with self-interest when it comes to a career progression?

• 47:07Jocko Willink?

  So, this question is, is, has, is giving the impression that, that being loyal to your bros and being loyal to your workmates and, and having pride is the opposite of, of career progression. Which is actually, I understand where that is coming from, but it's actually does not have to be true. That does not have to be the way you think. The, the way you get around this is number one, you work hard. That's you do work hard and you do a good job, not for promotion, not for self-interest, but to help the team accomplish the goal.

• 47:49Jocko Willink?

  That's what you should be working hard for. That's what you should be doing a good job for. And if you're, and this is something I've said a bunch of times over the years. I don't know if I've ever said it on the podcast before, but I used to tell my guys, because we'd be, we'd be in some long-term administrative psychological warfare in our community, in, in, in the SEAL teams or in our organization. And I'd say, look, if we're doing the right thing for the right reason, we're going to win in the end. And, and I totally believe that to be true. Now, for instance, I never really cared about rank or being promoted. Now, that being said, I actually did put in an officer package

• 48:35Jocko Willink?

  so that I could become an officer. Now, why did I do that? I didn't do that out of greed or out of hunger for power. I did it because I had worked for a prior enlisted officer and he made our lives really good because he was a really good leader. And I said, you know what? I'd like to make a bunch of the guys that I know, make 16 guys in a SEAL platoon, make their lives better. Maybe I can do that. So, that, that's sort of what led me to do it. I didn't do it out of...

• 49:04Jocko Willink?

  Out of self-interest and greed, I did it to help my bros. Now, th- then, once I got promoted, and once I became an officer, then I just busted my ass to do the best job I could. And again, I was never concerned with being promoted, but in order to do a good job, guess what I did? I built relationships, I took some hard jobs, I followed the rules. I supported the chain of command, I told the party line. Why did I do those things? It wasn't because I was trying to get promoted, it's because I was trying to do a good job. And the more relationships I had, and the more respect I had from the chain of command, the more power I had to help my guys.

• 49:46Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't about power for me, it was about power for the good of the platoon. So I could accomplish it. And, and, I knew that I believed in the broad mission that we were doing. I knew that good order and discipline actually makes troops perform better, I knew that. And I knew that by following the rules, by supporting the chain of command, I knew that towing the party, I knew that those things would build trust in the chain of command. And I knew that building trust in the chain of command and being viewed positively from up the chain of command meant that I would get more support from the chain of command.

• 50:31Jocko Willink?

  Which, once again, would make it easier for my guys to do their job. Because I could get them more gear, I could get them the assets that they needed. I could actually legitimately protest if something came down the pipe that I didn't agree with. If I didn't have trust and had built a relationship with my senior, uh, officers, how could I go back to them and say, "Hey, I don't think we should be doing this?" They don't know me, they don't trust me. But when you build that trust, then you can have more open and honest conversations. Which, again, is only done so that my platoon can have an easier life. So that they can do their job better, because I believed in the mission.

• 51:13Jocko Willink?

  So, everything that I was doing, that I was doing to make my platoon have a better go at things. Make my platoon more efficient, make my platoon more effective on the battlefield. All those things that I was doing, I was doing to make that.

• 51:32Jocko Willink?

  And low and behold, when you're doing those things, when you're busting your ass, when you're trying to make life good for your platoon, so that your platoon can more effectively and efficiently accomplish its mission on the battlefield. Well, guess what? Those are aligned with a guy that's working hard and is supporting the chain of command. So I would get ranked number one. Why? Not because I was trying to get promoted, not for self-interest, it's because I was trying to do a good job for my boys.

• 52:02Jocko Willink?

  So, the bottom line is, if you care about doing a good job, and the, the, and you're doing things that will help you do a good job, again, not for promotion and not for recognition, but to truly do a good job, the end result is most likely gonna be positive.

• 52:28Jocko Willink?

  Now, the caveat to this is, does that mean that you'll be the first person to get promoted? No. Does it mean that you are guaranteed to get promoted? No. Some other guy that brown-nosed and took all the credit he didn't deserve and stepped on a people's backs to get to the top, he's probably gonna get promoted ahead of you. He probably is. It's okay. It's okay. I will tell you that that will come back to haunt him. Eventually. Maybe not this year, maybe not next year, maybe in five years, people are gonna see through that eventually. And you, who's doing the right things for the right reasons, you will win in the end.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we talk about this a lot where if you're doing it just to get the promotion, that's they're gonna see that, man, they're gonna smell it on you. Yeah, and not only is the boss gonna, everyone's gonna smell it on you.

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  I I talked about that earlier tonight, cuz if you were gonna, if you volun- like, if you volunteered to be the admiral's aide.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:35Jocko Willink?

  Then then that was a total red flag. Watch out for this guy.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I see what you're doing.

• 53:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you don't wanna be that guy. You wanna be doing the right things for the right reasons.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:45Jocko Willink?

  And that is, that is how, even in the long run, you will get the recognition and the promotions and the credit that you deserve, because why wouldn't you?

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:55Jocko Willink?

  You're busting your ass to do a great job.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:57Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna get, you're gonna shine eventually.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, and if you're focused on doing the best job you can do, that's the best, that's really the the the dynamics of promotions anyway.

• 54:06Jocko Willink?

  It it.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Or should be ideally, you know, from an ideal standpoint.

• 54:10Jocko Willink?

  And over time, it will be, cuz there is somebody that Brown knows is the boss.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:17Jocko Willink?

  That maneuvers to take these little missions or to do things to get the recognition that he's there's, there's a guy that's doing that.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:25Jocko Willink?

  And they can get promoted. And you gotta accept that and not succumb to it, not submit to it.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:33Jocko Willink?

  Cuz you don't wanna be that guy. In the long run, the guy that busts his ass, that takes cares of his troops, that toes the party line, that does the right things for the right reasons is gonna win in the end.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:43Jocko Willink?

  You gotta believe in that.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, you know, guys do that in jujitsu, right? Sometimes. Oh, we talk about that too, where they have the, they have the wrong mindset. They just want that purple belt or that brown belt or whatever. Yeah, they want the next belt.

• 54:54Jocko Willink?

  Or I wanna tap that guy, or I wanna tap this guy. Yeah, those are the wrong reasons.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, folks, yeah, and if you notice, the guys who who are just in it to be the best that they can be, you see them asking questions or going over some stuff, you know, on their own kinda thing, where they do, they just wanna learn as much as they can and get good at as much as they can.

• 55:14Jocko Willink?

  And in the long run, those are gonna be the the guys that shine.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and man, I, and I think, man, I think that's, it's such a huge deal. And it goes for jujitsu or even at at work or whatever. If man, if you're the guy who they can see what you're doing and you're kissing ass or or like the guy, okay, this is one of the most embarrassing things you can do. In my opinion, in jujitsu is after a promotion, you didn't get promoted and then you're overtly unhappy about it.

• 55:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  And don't go one step further. And say something about, oh, I tap that guy all the time and he got his belt. Ooh, don't ever do it. Don't do it.

• 55:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Bro, I'm telling you, don't do it.

• 55:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't bode well.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  I don't think you could ever really live that down.

• 56:01Jocko Willink?

  It's just unnecessary.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  It just shows, hey, guys, look at me. I'm focused on the wrong thing. I'm focused on like wearing a belt rather than my skill, you know? I'd rather get a belt and maybe not have the skill. I'd rather that than have the skill and maybe not have the belt right now. That's what you're saying.

• 56:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:22Jocko Willink?

  The reality is, any good jujitsu guy would rather have the skill and not have the belt.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Right now, by the way.

• 56:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Not have the belt right now.

• 56:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  If you have the skill, you'll get the belt. You know, that's just part of the system.

• 56:36Jocko Willink?

  You know what? It could be a long time.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:38Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? That's okay.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Oh, unless you quit, then you won't have a belt.

• 56:42Jocko Willink?

  Then you won't have the belt.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  But that's not who.

• 56:44Jocko Willink?

  But you gotta also accept the fact that some guys can get promoted ahead of you.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Good, good, good thing you good. You tapped them before.

• 56:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, good, good. That's perfect.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Keep that up.

• 56:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're gonna get you that belt.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, stop whining. I heard of a guy who left the gym.

• 57:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Our gym. Because he didn't get a belt. He was like, oh, I'm just gonna go somewhere else.

• 57:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's too bad.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  I just heard it was a story. I wasn't there enough.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Anyway, next question. Unless we have more on that one.

• 57:15Jocko Willink?

  No, we're good.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Good.

• 57:17Jocko Willink?

  Dead horse has been beaten.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't be that guy, man.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Chaco, on team building, when leading a team, do you feel that there is any benefit to team building exercises or retreats?

• 57:35Jocko Willink?

  Well, this is a interesting question that actually I feel I'm fairly qualified to answer because we, we, Leif and I, we have a little business called Ashlan Front where that's, uh, we work with a lot of different companies on a different, a wide range of different categories. Sometimes we go in and work with a business, sometimes we go and do a keynote speech for a business. Like they'll be having a big meeting and we'll go in and do one keynote speech for an hour and we leave and we're done. But most of the time, we're doing more long range stuff where we spend time with the company we go in. But oftentimes we do do some kind of situation where the company has decided to do some

• 58:19Jocko Willink?

  kind of a leadership offsite or a team building exercise or a leadership retreat. And we, we mostly get involved with the leadership, although that does sometimes trickle down to where we're, we'll do some work with all the frontline troops. So we constantly see these, these leadership offsites and we speak and/or lead them. Sometimes we run the whole thing and there are definitely some outstanding events and we've participated in and led some outstanding events with, with companies. And I think one of the most important things about these offsites is it, it forces the leadership team to detach from the day-to-day firefights of what the business is.

• 59:04Jocko Willink?

  No matter what the, there's no businesses where the CEO and the C-suite are like sitting around not doing anything. They, those, those companies don't exist, at least that I've seen. Those, you know, you're trying to expand, you're trying to grow, you've got competitors making moves, so you're, you're in the fight and then you've got operational things that are happening, so you're in the fight. So when you do these leadership offsites, it's good that you get them to focus on some other development and some whatever issues they're having and areas where they can improve. So there, it gives them the opportunity to focus on those things. It also gives them the opportunity to self-assess as a team, how they're doing and themselves as leaders.

• 59:47Jocko Willink?

  How they're doing. And, and when I talk to people about leadership and teamwork and the shortfalls and the pitfalls that exist and, and then when I, when they hear me talk about it, they recognize their own weaknesses. I, every time I get done, they go, man, when you were talking about, you know, when you were talking about ego, sometimes I think I let my ego get in the way. Or when you were talking about cover and move, man, I don't think I, or when you're talking about ownership, they, they see areas of their own weaknesses and they see where they can improve. And then when you get the whole team, that's all learning that same information, they're all doing that same self-assessment, and then the whole leadership team gets aligned

• 1:00:30Jocko Willink?

  behind the same leadership principles?

• 1:00:35Jocko Willink?

  Of ownership and humility and cover and move and simple decentralized command and all those things that I talk about, that is extremely powerful. It is extremely powerful. And we see really drastic turnarounds with the companies that we work with and it's awesome. It's awesome to see. And then one, one thing that we do when we work more in depth with a company, we do our own leadership offsites where we do simulated combat. And I know it sounds, i- i- it sounds, if, if I wouldn't have done it so many times, I would be surprised that it's, it's possible. But we take either paint guns, paintball guns,

• 1:01:15Jocko Willink?

  or airsoft guns, and we teach them the basic shooting principles and we teach them some basic small unit tactics. And then we go and perform missions, we have them perform missions. And every time, they got eight guys, they got 10 guys, they got 12 guys, girls, whatever in their group, and they go and assault a target. They come up with a plan, they go out, we put one person in charge, and that person has to lead a mission. And they, what they theorized?

• 1:01:46Jocko Willink?

  In the classroom, they now get to put to the test and they learn those lessons very, very clearly. You know, we, we'd see a guy that would be a really strong leader. And he would say, okay, I'm the, I'm in charge of this run. Here's what I'm gonna do. Here's the way the plan's gonna go down. You're gonna do this, you're gonna do this, you're gonna do this. You see that micromanagement start? And then as soon as they start the operation, everyone is expecting to get micromanaged. Right. So no one's thinking on their own. So now you get a decentralized, a lack of decentralized command. And everything goes sideways and nobody does anything because I'll be waiting to be told what to do. So, so that's an example of the kind of things that people learn.

• 1:02:26Jocko Willink?

  So with all that, yes, absolutely. We, you know, I've been to and we run some, some pretty awesome team building exercises and retreats. And leadership offsites that are, that are great. And we've seen awesome results from them all. I've also sat through some offsites that are, that are not that effective. You know, you get situations where people don't open up or there's no exchange. Or you get these team building exercises that, that some people set up and there's some kind of physical or mental challenge. And while they might be hard and they might take some teamwork to perform, they don't break the paradigm that the company is in.

• 1:03:11Jocko Willink?

  So they'll end up leading through that challenge or whatever it is, whether it's a some kind of a PT, some, some kind of physical training or some kind of a boat race or something like that. They'll lead through that challenge the way they always lead, the way they currently lead. So nothing is learned and nothing is gained and no leadership advancement has been made. And all they've done is actually, all they've actually done is reinforce the bad leadership situation that they already have.

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  So that's, that's one of the things that I've seen that can be problematic. And that's why we've gone in the direction that we go where we really focus on let's do, let's look at leadership and the team working together, how, what the leadership dynamics are, what our weaknesses are, what we see, where we uncover the friction, where we see the team not working well together, where we see the leaders not stepping up and leading, where we see the leaders egos get in the way. I mean, there's so many things that we uncover and find. It's, it's phenomenal and it, and it really does make it fun for us.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:14Jocko Willink?

  You know, because every time you see a new leadership team, you, it's, it's like diagnosing a, a, a patient and you, you look at the problems that they're having, they say, oh, well, you know what? Try this over here. Take this off a little bit. And the next thing you know, you've got that patient up and running and they're winning.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  Or like a mechanic who grabs the car, right?

• 1:04:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Hot, you know? Uh, yeah, some of those leadership or not leadership necessarily, but these, these team building retreats too. Sometimes it seems like whoever organized them really wasn't focusing on results. They were just focusing on our annual, uh, you know, retreat. So they make it in like the Bahamas and all these, um, you know, these activities are like kind of fun, you know, then every once in a while they have an administrative thing or something.

• 1:05:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And fun can be part of it. You know, there's, there's bonding that happens. There's getting to know each other and that's always positive. Um, but the, if you're, I'm all about having fun. I'm all about bonding, but I'm even more about learning. I'm even more about improving the guy, the people we work with, the, the guys and, and girls that we work with. I want them to be better leaders. That's what I want.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:05:26Jocko Willink?

  And so, uh, yeah, sure. Do I want them to get some team challenges? Yes. But like I said, I don't want that to just reinforce the paradigm that they're already in, the leadership paradigm that they're already in. I want them to improve. So let's actually break down and look and, and analyze and diagnose what the issues are and then let's solve them.

• 1:05:52Jocko Willink?

  And you know, it's not, it's not always, it's not always that these teams go in and they're, you know, we don't get hired by companies that are failing. In fact, most of the time, we get hired by companies that are doing well, that wanna do better. So when I say we diagnose, diagnose what the problem is, it's not, it's, it's not a problem where it's causing the company to failure, but it's a friction point where it is holding the company back from really reaching the best, best, next level and going from being a really good company, or even an outstanding company, to the best in class company.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Gotcha. So it's like a, it's like a multivitamin, not a painkiller?

• 1:06:33Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  There you go. That's not mine either, and I read that somewhere. You know the micromanaging thing?

• 1:06:39Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  And that's, it's funny, cuz you're the first person that I've heard say that, this, where, where you said, they'll start micromanaging, and then all of a sudden, the people getting micromanaged, expect to get micromanaged, so they stop thinking, right?

• 1:06:54Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  So, yeah, and that happens all the time.

• 1:06:56Jocko Willink?

  And it goes the other way, too. If you come to me and you say, hey, Jocko, how you want me to do this? And I go, figure it out. And you say, hey, boss, can you show me how to do this? And I say, figure it out. When we get in the field, you're, you're gonna know that I expect you to figure it out.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, man. Like, when I, when I drive with my wife, she'll start micromanaging, like, how I drive, like, get in this lane, or, or, um, you know, just, you're going too slow. Or too fa- too fast, whatever, too slow typically, yeah. But here's the thing, I'm not gonna lose my temper, you know, I don't think, yeah, front seat in her case, but yeah, man, for sure. And I'm not gonna lose my temper, I'd be like, okay, but that's what I do, I shut down my brain. And then, so one time Jade was riding with us, and he was, uh, no, he was actually, I was micromanaging Jade, and he put it in these good terms, which I thought were good. He said, either be the navigator, hundred percent, cuz he stopped thinking, you know?

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Or don't be it at all. You can't just start chiming in when you think I'm going too slow, you know? Otherwise, yeah, I don't wanna, I'm, if Sarah's yelling at me, hey, you're going too slow, I'm gonna be like, okay, how fast you want me to go? I'll go that fast. So if you're navigating on the map, you're gonna have to tell me every turn to make. Don't say, "Hey, you're gonna make this right," and then I make the right, then you just sign off, you know?

• 1:08:16Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're anticipating the micromanage.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Exactly, right, man. And I think it kinda goes automatically, you know? You gotta put in a lot of mental work.

• 1:08:24Jocko Willink?

  Whereas if you knew that Sarah never said anything to you when you got in the car?

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  All me.

• 1:08:27Jocko Willink?

  You'd know that you had to have the route prepped before you got in the vehicle.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we might go a little bit too slow, but still, man, it's all me as far as thinking goes. Yeah, man, don't micromanage. Or, when you micromanage, don't expect them to just all of a sudden start making, you know, creative decisions. It's just hard, it's hard for it to work that way, man.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  Alright, next question, this is the last one.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  Jocko, could you tell us any possible regrets or things you'd done differently? Something you'd wished you'd learned sooner?

• 1:09:12Jocko Willink?

  Regrets? Things I could've done differently, things I wish I learned sooner?

• 1:09:23Jocko Willink?

  Of course, there are things I wish I learned sooner. There's there's so much knowledge out there, so much information, so many ways to get better.

• 1:09:38Jocko Willink?

  And we make we make so many mistakes.

• 1:09:44Jocko Willink?

  We're the, we're the product of our mistakes. And oftentimes, the lesson is sitting there right in front of our face. It's there to be learned, but we miss it, or we don't pay attention to it, or we think we know better.

• 1:10:03Jocko Willink?

  Until it punches us in the face.

• 1:10:11Jocko Willink?

  And the most important thing to learn is that we have so much to learn. We all do. And we can learn from school and from people and from experience and we learn from life.

• 1:10:30Jocko Willink?

  But you have to process the information, you have to absorb it, you have to accept it, you have to open your mind, you've got to free your mind. So that you can learn and make real progress.

• 1:10:54Jocko Willink?

  And as far as regrets and things I wish I would have done differently, of course. Hindsight. Hindsight is 2020 and looking back, of course, who wouldn't want to take another go at something? And improve on the first try by doing it again?

• 1:11:15Jocko Willink?

  And then why not do it again and again and again and why not just do it over and over again until you have it perfect?

• 1:11:28Jocko Willink?

  But the fact is, you don't get that chance.

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  You get one shot, one shot at this gig right here. Life.

• 1:11:44Jocko Willink?

  One life, that's all you've got.

• 1:11:48Jocko Willink?

  And regret in and of itself.

• 1:11:54Jocko Willink?

  It's worthless. It does nothing for you. In fact, the only valuable thing in regret is the lesson you learned.

• 1:12:05Jocko Willink?

  The knowledge that you gained.

• 1:12:10Jocko Willink?

  But walking around filled with regret gets you nothing.

• 1:12:18Jocko Willink?

  So learn and move on. Don't let regret beat you down. Don't be a slave to regret. No.

• 1:12:29Jocko Willink?

  Let it teach you. Let it make you better.

• 1:12:35Jocko Willink?

  Let the fear of regret fuel you to take action today, now.

• 1:12:46Jocko Willink?

  To take action now to become a better person, not filled with regret,

• 1:12:56Jocko Willink?

  but filled with knowledge.

• 1:13:03Jocko Willink?

  Filled with knowledge and strength and power and filled with life.

• 1:13:18Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight.

• 1:13:25Jocko Willink?

  No regrets.

• 1:13:28Jocko Willink?

  Only knowledge. And that's what we are striving for. On this podcast to gain knowledge.

• 1:13:39Jocko Willink?

  So we can improve ourselves and live better lives. Echo, can you just go ahead and drop some knowledge on us right now about how we can support this podcast?

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  And/or improve your life, have a better life. One way is to supplement

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  your workouts and your brain with Onnit supplements. AlphaBrain, Shroom Tech is a good one. Wear your bars. Krill Oil. Yeah, it's a big one. Onnit.com/jaco, you get 10% off. Boom. Improve your budget as well.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  And if you want to support the podcast, uh, before shopping on amazon.com, before you do that shopping, um, go to Jaco podcast.com or Jaco store.com, click on the Amazon link.

• 1:14:28Jocko Willink?

  That's pretty cool.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:30Jocko Willink?

  You're buying it anyways. I know you love Amazon because I love Amazon because it is a squared away system.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:14:37Jocko Willink?

  That delivers things to your home in hours or days.

• 1:14:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Jocko Willink?

  And all you gotta do if you want to help us out is you just gotta.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Go there.

• 1:14:46Jocko Willink?

  Go there. Just go to our site first, click on it and then boom, they're not taking more money from you. They're taking their money and giving it. They're taking their money and giving it to support the Jocko podcast.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:15:00Jocko Willink?

  Which is pretty impressive. So that's much appreciated.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if you're buying some duct tape or some, the key, the challenge is remembering to go, right? To Jocko podcast.com, but man.

• 1:15:10Jocko Willink?

  Why you always say duct tape? Do you get a lot of duct tape from Amazon?

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  No, I, I've gotten, yeah.

• 1:15:17Jocko Willink?

  You always say if you need duct tape, man, go to Amazon.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  Well, I said it once and it kind of stuck.

• 1:15:23Jocko Willink?

  Duct tape.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  Anyway, that, no, I used to watch MacGyver. Actually, I still watch MacGyver all the time. That was his thing, man. Duct tape.

• 1:15:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  Don't go anywhere without it.

• 1:15:32Jocko Willink?

  In the, in the military, we call it riggers tape.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:35Jocko Willink?

  And some people call it a hundred and twenty mile an hour tape, but I never called it that one time.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Jocko Willink?

  But we call the riggers tape.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep. I got some black riggers tape. Nonetheless, um, if you're getting some or anything on amazon.com, just try, if you can, just remember to go to Jocko podcast.com first, click on the Amazon link and boom, automatic supporting podcasts and we thank you for that. I thank you for that. Jocko, thanks for that. And, um, while you're at Jocko's store, if you like any of the shirts.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  Go ahead, grab one or a coffee mug or sticker. That's a good way to support.

• 1:16:12Jocko Willink?

  This shirt that you're wearing tonight is a little bit new, isn't it?

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  It's a little new, yes. The newest one. Right here. If you're watching on YouTube.

• 1:16:22Jocko Willink?

  If you're not watching on YouTube, the front of the shirt, it's a black on black shirt. And in black on the front, it says, know the darkness.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Yep. Actually ironically, if you're watching on YouTube, you might not even be able to see know the darkness. And let's say, and I mentioned this before, this, when we made this one, there's that added layer where it's dark. The shirt is for you. It's not to show everyone, oh, look at me, look at my cool shirt. The shirt is for you. You know it's there.

• 1:16:50Jocko Willink?

  And on the back, it's got some madness.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  Some darkness.

• 1:16:53Jocko Willink?

  It's got some dark, dark picture. So that would easy, you do the shirts, right? I mean, so this must, what did that like? You, we've talked about a lot of stuff. Why, why did you, why did you go with the darkness? Why did you, why was that important to you?

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  God, that was the main theme. Remember like when you, when you started or?

• 1:17:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, I remember, yeah.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Well, okay, when Jocko started, the main theme and still is the main theme where he goes into all these dark books and, and concepts. And then every time, like even Tim Kennedy, when we asked him, oh, or one of the questions was like, hey, how do you, you know, reconcile, you know, being happy or anything that when you've seen so much darkness and it actually intensifies your happiness because you can recognize the good stuff. So know the darkness so you can see the light. That's kind of the, the phrase there, right? So you can appreciate good things way more when you know bad things and that goes for everything, really.

• 1:17:53Jocko Willink?

  So you didn't make a shirt that said, be happy. The light is with us because you could have made that, I guess.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of inconsistent though with the whole feel, I think.

• 1:18:07Jocko Willink?

  And the bottom line is if you're surrounded by all the happiness, it starts to fade.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Right? Yeah, man. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:18:14Jocko Willink?

  So let's not make a happy shirt. Let's make a dark shirt.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe we can make a happy shirt in the future, but I'm saying for right now.

• 1:18:23Jocko Willink?

  That's what, that's what you were feeling.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  That's what I was feeling. Yeah. I thought it was appropriate. I thought it was good. I think it came out good, man.

• 1:18:29Jocko Willink?

  I dig it.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  There you go. Or if you like any of the other ones, Discipline Equals Freedom, that was a cool one too, I think.

• 1:18:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Or the one with your head on it. Anyway, you can see them, whatever.

• 1:18:41Jocko Willink?

  I still haven't, I still haven't seen a live, a live one in the wild. Like, I haven't seen, travel, I travel all the time.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:49Jocko Willink?

  I haven't seen a trooper yet, just, just representing.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:54Jocko Willink?

  I'm so looking forward to it.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've seen them here.

• 1:18:56Jocko Willink?

  I never, I've, I'd never have taken a selfie, but I think I might do a selfie if I, if I, if I see a person in the wild, a trooper out there, just representing hardcore in an airport somewhere.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Jocko Willink?

  Coming straight up, we're gonna do some burpees and then.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  You know, yeah, but you kind of, yeah, I've seen them here.

• 1:19:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, in San Diego?

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Jocko Willink?

  But those are our people. We know everybody.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I've seen one where I didn't know.

• 1:19:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't know that, you know, that, um, like this guy.

• 1:19:26Jocko Willink?

  You didn't know that person?

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  No, I knew him, I know him.

• 1:19:29Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that doesn't count.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  But I didn't know, like, he got a shirt and stuff.

• 1:19:31Jocko Willink?

  I wanna be in Indianapolis, or I wanna be in Philadelphia, and be walking down the street and see some guy just representing hardcore, right there in the street. That'd be awesome.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Well, I can attest that with the online stuff, I've seen the people representing, they are representing hardcore.

• 1:19:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, anything else?

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Nope, that's it. If you, if you like it, just grab one if you want.

• 1:19:55Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Well, as always, if you wanna continue this conversation with us, all these questions we answered tonight, they're from you guys, they're from the troopers, they're from you all, so thank you for doing that. We are on the interwebs on Twitter. Echo Charles is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink. We're also on the Facebook and Instagram, if you care.

• 1:20:26Jocko Willink?

  That's where we are. And we're trying to get better, and you can join us there as we seek knowledge together.

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  And get after it.

• 1:20:41Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.

• 1:20:49Jocko Willink?

  Out.