Nothing Like a New MacBook!

So much happened this week that it felt like Techtember all over again. First, the crew sits down to talk about the week of Apple product announcements including the new iPhone 17e and MacBook Neo. After that, it's all about Nothing which released the new 4a and 4a Pro along with a new pair of headphones. Then it gets existential as discussion turns to the future of AI and the internet. Enjoy! Shop the merch: https://shop.mkbhd.com Links: The Studio - MKBHD Knockoff desk video MKBHD - MacBook Neo Nothing - Nothing Phone 4a Design reveal Nothing - Nothing Phone 4a Pro reveal Nothing - Nothing Headphones(a) RTINGS statement Growtika - Tech publication traffic TechCrunch - Meta smart glasses investigation Music provided by: Epidemic Sound This episode brought to you by: Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/waveform Social: Waveform Threads: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Waveform Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/waveformpodcast/?hl=en Waveform TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Hosts: Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Intro/Outro music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrew Manganelli?

  This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, host Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist, and Colin Martin, Head of Fixed Income Research and Strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring your fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episodes and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. AI is only as useful as the context it has to work from, but when that context is scattered across tools, threads, and DMs, that means your team and your AI agents end up flying blind. That's the problem that Jira solves. What's the goal tied to your project? What got decided last week in Slack? Atlassian's teamwork graph pulls all these pieces together, from Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub, and more, so nothing falls through the cracks. With Jira, you can actually share that context with the AI agents you already use, like Claude, Cursor, and GitHub Copilot, assign them work directly, or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time digging through endless links and DMs, less time chasing down what got decided and by who, and more time actually shipping. Learn more at jira.com.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  That's J-I-R-A dot com.

• 1:20Andrew Manganelli?

  460. 460? What? The March 6th?

• 1:25David Imel?

  Yeah, remember they went up. They would have been priced this year.

• 1:28Andrew Manganelli?

  460?

• 1:29David Imel?

  Yeah, they're hella expensive.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  For headphones that sound like the music is coming out of a bee's [bleep].

• 1:36Speaker 01

  I remember when they were like 330, then they were 350.

• 1:41Speaker 03

  That is not what they sound like.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  They're not bad. That's like the engines.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  What is up people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marquez.

• 2:00Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm Andrew.

• 2:01David Imel?

  I'm David.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  And welcome to Techtember. Everything is happening. Wait a second, hold on.

• 2:07Andrew Manganelli?

  It's it's tarch.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  It's March. It's not. It's tarch?

• 2:11David Imel?

  It's starch.

• 2:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Jono's been trying to get tarch going.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Tech March?

• 2:14David Imel?

  It's the start of tarch.

• 2:15Andrew Manganelli?

  We don't claim tarch. I don't know what you're talking about.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Mac?

• 2:18Andrew Manganelli?

  No.

• 2:20Andrew Manganelli?

  It's like Christmas in July, but Techtember in March.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's a lot. We've got. So we're working on the S26 Ultra review and then Apple drops six new products, nothing drops three new products, and suddenly we just have a lot on our plate. And also, we've got to talk a little bit more about AI and how it's affecting reviews. So this might be a six hour episode, is what I'm trying to say.

• 2:41Andrew Manganelli?

  It's rough because it's Thursday.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're shooting it on Thursday, too.

• 2:44David Imel?

  Don't threaten me with a good time.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, make sure you get subscribed because we have a lot to talk about. So if we don't get to all of it this week, we'll probably get to more of it next week.

• 2:53David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 2:53Andrew Manganelli?

  But first.

• 2:56David Imel?

  I was waiting for it.

• 2:57Andrew Manganelli?

  Did they even test this?

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Apparently, this has already gone outside of this room and Olivia has something she wanted to add. So Adam will be her.

• 3:05David Imel?

  Surrogate.

• 3:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Surrogate, right?

• 3:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, Olivia and Michael were doing graphics for us because we asked for specific graphics for the channel. You might actually be seeing them on this episode. So YouTube viewers, let me know how how you like them. Is this the thing that happened yesterday? Yes. It's. So they've been working with an app called Apple Motion, which is their version of After Effects, because they were like, you know, the team kind of works in Final Cut. Yeah, Marquez is like.

• 3:33David Imel?

  He's like, you could call it that.

• 3:35Andrew Manganelli?

  That's what they want.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  They're doing this for our benefit because we work in Final Cut mostly. And they're like, you know what? All our graphics we make in After Effects. Let's see if we can like learn this other program. It'll be easy to drop, drag and drop into Final Cut. Like, it'll be simple. Olivia ran into this weird problem where she had this template that it was popping like a spec up on the screen. And then she would go do other things, come back, and it would just be like slightly off to the right. And she's like, this is so weird. And she's like, working on this for like the past week. And every time she has to keep moving it back. She's like, why does this keep happening? And then she like talks to Michael about it. And Michael's like, I figured it out. What happens is every time she hits save, it increments the X position by one. Yeah. So she has it set at zero.

• 4:23Andrew Manganelli?

  In a graphics app?

• 4:25Speaker 03

  No, and so the solution they came up with is she just has to remember every time she hits Command S to move that asset to negative one on the X axis. And then when it saves, it reverts to zero.

• 4:35David Imel?

  What the heck?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  That's real?

• 4:37Andrew Manganelli?

  That's so funny.

• 4:38David Imel?

  It's so funny.

• 4:40Speaker 03

  That makes me not trust computers.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  That would be like if in Microsoft Word, every time you hit save, it added a dash to wherever your cursor is.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  It makes me afraid to save, which is the one thing I should not be afraid to do.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Is Motion, does Motion have not auto-save like Final Cut?

• 4:55David Imel?

  I do not know. I should.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Cause that might be a habit you can drop by switching to Motion. I remember when I had, I was in Premiere, I would automatically save every time I could because if it crashed, it would just forget everything I did for the last 12 minutes. But when I switched to Final Cut Pro, it could crash and I would bring it back and it would remember, it would actually start trying to do the thing that made it crash again, like it was that recent of a memory.

• 5:18Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  So I wonder if the move is to stop Command S-ing in Motion.

• 5:23David Imel?

  Just stop saving. Maybe. I'll ask her. I'll see if that's a little life hack.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Super weird.

• 5:26David Imel?

  Bro, just tell Claude to one-shot this app.

• 5:29Speaker 03

  To one-shot Apple Motion?

• 5:30David Imel?

  We don't need Apple's software. We can just make it ourselves.

• 5:34Andrew Manganelli?

  I wonder if it's a weird shortcut thing that's happening? I don't know. That's so weird. I can't believe Michael found it out. That's really impressive, but.

• 5:43David Imel?

  Well, he's an After Effects guy, so he's Command S all the time.

• 5:45Andrew Manganelli?

  Now, when she does want to move it one, she'll just be like Command S, S, S, S, S, S. It's like 10 spaces over.

• 5:51David Imel?

  At least she's saving and making sure it doesn't crash.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  I have a great segue because the, the video that Apple played for the beginning of their event, and that's now on their YouTube channel, was really, really good, which is why I'm so sure they didn't use Motion. So good. It's really good.

• 6:06David Imel?

  It's really good.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  So, Apple dropped a little, uh, we'd had a week-long event. I guess we haven't talked about any of this. So we had Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

• 6:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Monday, we got iPhone 17E, if I'm remembering correctly. Tuesday, we got MacBook Pro, M5 Pro, M5 Max.

• 6:24David Imel?

  Oh, Tuesday. Yeah, yeah.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  And Studio Display and Studio Display XDR.

• 6:29David Imel?

  Monday, we also got iPad Air with M4.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Oh, I forgot about those.

• 6:32David Imel?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  Dude, it's been a week.

• 6:34David Imel?

  Yeah. And there's new crossbody strap colors, two of them.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 6:38David Imel?

  Uh, yeah. And then we also got the, and then Wednesday, we got the.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  And then Wednesday, we got MacBook Neo.

• 6:43David Imel?

  Oh, wait. Tuesday, we also got the M5 MacBook Air.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Oh, did we?

• 6:48David Imel?

  Yes, I know. Yeah, the things that just got spec bumps are obviously less interesting.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like we can skip those pretty quick. M5 MacBook Air, it's the MacBook Air but with M5.

• 6:58David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  And Wi-Fi 7, okay.

• 7:00David Imel?

  There's other things.

• 7:01Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, okay, never mind.

• 7:03David Imel?

  I mean, it's mostly just like, they started at 512 gigs of base storage now.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 7:08David Imel?

  That's pretty awesome, and it goes up to 4 terabytes instead of 2. 2X faster read and write speeds, which is pretty awesome. Supports Wi-Fi 7 and Bluetooth 6. $100 more expensive than the base M4 Air. Um, so that's not great, but uh, but at least it starts at double the storage.

• 7:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I, well, sorry, and you may have kind of answered that, but I'm, I missed it.

• 7:29David Imel?

  Okay.

• 7:29Andrew Manganelli?

  It's 512 base storage, but the price has gone up?

• 7:32David Imel?

  Yes.

• 7:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Is it the same price as the old 512?

• 7:35David Imel?

  It's 100%. So it is more expensive than the baseline M4, but for the same storage tier, it's actually $100 cheaper than you would have gotten on the M4 MacBook Air.

• 7:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Good.

• 7:44David Imel?

  So it is like a better deal, and for a lot of people, the MacBook Air is gonna be the better option anyway, which we will get to the Neo in a bit.

• 7:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:52David Imel?

  Um, but yeah, and then, like you said, M5 Pro and M5 Max, MacBook Pros, that's kind of a big deal, because we didn't have M5 Pro or M5 Max of anything yet. Right? So, those are gonna be way better for AI tasks, etc. Um, they also have-

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Video editing.

• 8:07David Imel?

  Video editing. They have way better GPU, uh, 4X peak GPU compared to M4 Max, which is pretty insane.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Where's the M5 Ultra, man?

• 8:16David Imel?

  I know. Even M4, yeah, they don't love the Ultras, they've only released a couple of those.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Only 3 Ultras.

• 8:21David Imel?

  Yeah. Uh, up to 614 gigabytes per second, uh, up to 128 gigabytes of unified memory in the M5 Max. Pretty crazy stuff. It's ironic that they're releasing these now, because people, again, were saying that in November or so, they're gonna release the M6 series, because of the touchscreen MacBooks that are gonna come out.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:41David Imel?

  Um, but it was funny how everyone was speculating that these were gonna be the touchscreen MacBooks, because of the animation that they released.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, the teaser.

• 8:48David Imel?

  Which was like the pinching of the Apple logo.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  That was funny.

• 8:51David Imel?

  Yeah, and I just went on a tirade on Twitter, being like, "No, it's the cheap one." It's the cheap one.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Also, they started at a terabyte now, which makes me feel kinda old, because a laptop starting at a terabyte storage-

• 9:01David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Is-

• 9:02David Imel?

  That used to be the tattoo model.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that used to be like, you could get a terabyte. Now it's, you have to start at a terabyte.

• 9:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  That's wild to me.

• 9:10David Imel?

  Uh, do you want to talk about the displays?

• 9:12Speaker 01

  On the M5s?

• 9:13David Imel?

  Uh, no.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  MacBook Pros? Oh, the, oh, the Pro Display.

• 9:15David Imel?

  Studio displays.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, so two new displays. They have a new Studio Display and a new Studio Display XDR, which is fancy and has sparkles around it. So, no, the new-

• 9:27David Imel?

  I mean, it is a new technology.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  The new Studio Display is a little overwhelming. It's still like $1,600, it's still 60 Hz. I think essentially what they did is add a Thunderbolt port and it's, yeah, they didn't really do a whole lot else to it. But-

• 9:40David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  The Studio Display XDR replaces the Pro Display XDR.

• 9:44David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  And it's significantly cheaper. And here's the difference, so I've had-

• 9:49Andrew Manganelli?

  That's a really nice way of putting it's $35 or $3,200?

• 9:52David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:53David Imel?

  But instead of $5,000.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  No, this is a-

• 9:55Andrew Manganelli?

  True.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Well, okay, so this is a thing that happens with Apple a lot, which is, we go, "Look how much better it is than last time." Because last time was like horribly overpriced or something.

• 10:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is what we're gonna do with the 17E as well.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So it's like, the Pro Display was $5,000, plus a $1,000 stand and a $1,000 anode structure. So yeah, this is significantly cheaper. But this is also a better display in just about every single way.

• 10:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  The only thing that I will miss when I inevitably get two of these is 6K and 32" because these are both now 5K 27" displays.

• 10:25David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  But they are, I think now, 2000 nits peak brightness. They're mini LED instead of the backlight in the Pro Displays, which I think is just a bunch of backlight zones instead of mini LED.

• 10:37David Imel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  So yeah, 5K 27" 120 Hz and very exciting. And also, you can daisy chain them because they have a Thunderbolt, extra Thunderbolt port, which is sick.

• 10:46David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  So, I, I think I have to get these.

• 10:51David Imel?

  I'm excited for what the mini LED ends up looking like. There's 2,304 dimming zones, uh, which are supposed to have even better contrast levels, which is very nice. And 120 Hz is pretty crazy to be able to do that on these displays now. Obviously, we've had gaming displays for a long time and there's like pro art, there's like all these high-end displays. But the reason people always end up buying these, even though that they're a bad deal, is just because of the seamless integration, where you can just plug it in and it just works and all that stuff.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  That is probably the top of the list. The second thing on the list is probably color accuracy. And being able to depend, there's a ton of reference modes in here, like this is actually still going to be a very good display. I kind of wonder how it'll look next to a Pro Display or how comparable they will be. Ideally, they're very, very similar. But yeah, I think, I think these are actually a really good display. And the fact that they're $2,000 cheaper makes it look good compared to a Pro Display. Which is obviously why you should never buy a Pro Display again, and they're discontinued.

• 11:48Andrew Manganelli?

  That's gonna be a pretty significant lack of real estate you're going to lose when you're 2Xing this now, putting them next to each other.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm gonna miss that.

• 11:55Andrew Manganelli?

  You're losing a lot of space. It would be way easier to have made your replica desk if I could have done 27" 5K monitors.

• 12:02David Imel?

  Well, maybe now on the replica desk, you can just buy used Pro Display XDRs, because those are gonna be cheaper.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  You don't have to buy the XDR. You should just buy the Studio Display.

• 12:10David Imel?

  Well, but the Pro Display XDR might be like the same price as the used now, you know?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Oh, you think you use the price of the now?

• 12:15David Imel?

  I mean, it won't be that low, but I don't know.

• 12:17Andrew Manganelli?

  You don't think they go up for people who want stills?

• 12:20Speaker 01

  6K, the 6K Apple display is now gonna be like, no more production. It's limited edition now.

• 12:26David Imel?

  I think people are interested in the mini LED.

• 12:29Andrew Manganelli?

  I totally agree with that and the refresh rate. Now, the only 6K 32" cheese grater monitor you can get is that weirdo knockoff that we got for the replica video, if you haven't seen that on the studio video.

• 12:40David Imel?

  Yeah. Also, the XDR model, the 27" does charge at 140 watts, so you can plug in the full 16" MacBook Pro. The other one that is not the XDR model charges at 96, which is, I believe, the charging speed of the 14" MacBook Pro, right?

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:56David Imel?

  Or something like that.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:57David Imel?

  And so that, I mean, that kind of shows what Apple, like who Apple thinks is going to buy these. They think the mini LED ones, they're gonna be the hardcore workstation MacBook Pros, whereas the, the smaller, well, not smaller, the cheaper one is gonna be, you know, the lighter MacBook Pro.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:13David Imel?

  But, you know.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  My summary is the regular, the regular Studio Display is not that great of a deal. Please cross shop a bunch of stuff. The Pro Display, the Studio Display XDR is kind of one of one again.

• 13:24David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Andrew Manganelli?

  It's, I feel like it's not going to be adding much to people who are... Like the people who bought Pro Display XDR previously.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Oh, don't.

• 13:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Now, this is just what you buy instead. And it's not going to be like, just because it's cheaper. I don't think it's going to gain that many more users.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's if you today were thinking about buying a Pro Display XDR. And then this comes out, it's like, oh, thank God, I don't have to buy a Pro Display. Because that was going to be way more expensive for essentially two extra inches of screen, or five or whatever. But this is way cheaper and a better display.

• 13:53David Imel?

  120 Hz is pretty nice, though.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Um, that's really what I'm most excited about, to be honest.

• 13:58David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:59David Imel?

  That's pretty good.

• 14:00Andrew Manganelli?

  You're going to rock in CS2?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  I'm going to edit three FPS videos and it's going to be great.

• 14:06David Imel?

  Yeah. Um, okay, we got to talk about the iPhone 17e.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 14:09David Imel?

  Yeah. So obviously, last year, uh, review was called like, who is this for? Or something like that, because it just didn't make any sense at all.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  It was a $600 iPhone with a 60 Hz display with no MagSafe.

• 14:23David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  And with the single camera.

• 14:25David Imel?

  Which is the worst of all worlds.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:28David Imel?

  And also, last year was the year that they started making the base iPhone like really good. So it just made even less sense.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  I reviewed a $900 iPhone 16e.

• 14:40David Imel?

  Why wouldn't they give you the top model?

• 14:42Speaker 01

  $900?

• 14:44David Imel?

  Nobody is going to buy the top model.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  You can get all of the phone for $900.

• 14:47David Imel?

  Dude, that's insane.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  So, okay, now we have the 17e, one year later. And what did they change?

• 14:52Andrew Manganelli?

  There's like two ways this could have gone. Either it stays exactly the same or is horrible. Or it's best is we get what the 16e should have been.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  I think that's what we got.

• 15:00Andrew Manganelli?

  And I think that's what we got.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  I think that's what we got. It has MagSafe now.

• 15:03David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  It has one more color, so it was black and white. Now there's black, white, and pink. Uh, I don't know if anyone's asking for pink, but.

• 15:08David Imel?

  Everyone's doing pink this year, I swear.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, and it has the newest chip and it doubles up to 250, 600 of storage again. And it's still the same $599 price.

• 15:18David Imel?

  And Ceramic Shield 2.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  And Ceramic Shield 2, which a lot of people are very excited about.

• 15:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  So, C1X chip may be underrated, but it's in there too. Uh, it's their newest, highest end modem cellular wireless chip.

• 15:30David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Uh, so that may end up being like the most high end thing in here alongside the processor.

• 15:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  But I think what's really interesting is they stuck with a single camera and they stuck with the same exact design and the 60 Hz display on the front.

• 15:44David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  So now the question is just how much do you care about a single camera and 60 Hz display? Lots of people don't care, clearly.

• 15:52David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  And lots of people will just buy this phone. I find it still a little crazy that if you cross shop a little bit for 600 bucks, you can get 120 hertz OLED, you could get dual, probably triple cameras. But a lot of people don't want the Android thing.

• 16:08David Imel?

  I'd rather buy a standard 16 refurbished for probably cheaper than this than the 17.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wonder if there's refurbished 17s already.

• 16:17David Imel?

  That are cheaper.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  That are like 600 bucks.

• 16:19David Imel?

  Probably not that.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Probably not that cheap yet.

• 16:21David Imel?

  But 16s definitely.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:23David Imel?

  Yeah, I think, I mean, a lot of these things that we're going to talk about today, it's like, if you're willing to buy used or refurbished, the better one from last year is a better deal. And I think that people should get into the habit of looking at used and refurbished things before they buy the new thing, especially because we're getting such incremental upgrades every year.

• 16:43Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, not even everything we talk about today. Every phone we talk about.

• 16:47David Imel?

  Even the MacBook when we talk about it, because a lot of people are talking about the refurbished MacBook Air from last year.

• 16:52Speaker 04

  Well, I was gonna say that going off of how Mark has started his video is like, if you're listening to this, if you're like one of our, like if you're subscribed to tech channels, you just, this isn't for you. Just like, get the regular iPhone 17 or an old like Air or like refurbished, like do that, because this is not for the people that are aware of this.

• 17:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 04

  This is like you walk into a store and you're like, give me the cheap one. I don't care, whatever. Like those people, they're gonna get.

• 17:20David Imel?

  But it's gotta have iMessage, because my nieces and nephews have iMessage.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  Like I don't, the same thing with the, with the new computer. Like, I don't care. What's the cheap one? Like, that's, that's who this is for.

• 17:29Andrew Manganelli?

  At least this year, they get a decent phone, like a phone that makes sense in the lineup, where last year it felt like they were getting scammed.

• 17:36David Imel?

  Not having MagSafe was like a big L, and then like they're kind of mugging Google with the storage right now.

• 17:42Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know what mugging means, but get mugged.

• 17:46David Imel?

  Alyssa Lou said it, so I can say it.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  They're storage mugging, yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Apple frame mugged. Google in Miami club.

• 17:54David Imel?

  So.

• 17:54Speaker 04

  Google with a massive cortisol spike.

• 17:57Speaker 03

  After being frame mugged by chat Apple.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Google's, Google's 10A has 128 gigs of storage, again.

• 18:05David Imel?

  So yeah, so yeah, if the 11 comes out, I'm assuming that'll be 256 base. It's gotta be.

• 18:10Andrew Manganelli?

  This just, yeah, you're right. Cause now they did the

• 18:12David Imel?

  It's gotta be dude.

• 18:13Andrew Manganelli?

  17 over the Pixel 10 doubled storage, same price. And now they did it for the cheap versions on both.

• 18:18David Imel?

  Of the 17.

• 18:19Andrew Manganelli?

  This just feels like they're picking on Google at this point.

• 18:22David Imel?

  Google's picking on themselves.

• 18:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, they deserve to get picked on.

• 18:24David Imel?

  Well, yeah, Apple's getting to the point where they're like not releasing anything with 128 gigs of storage anymore. Cause when we get to the Neo, it starts at 256 as well. Like there's not a lot of 128s left in the Apple ecosystem. Google's gotta catch up. Otherwise they're gonna have a lot of cortisol this, this summer.

• 18:39Andrew Manganelli?

  I know you're watching. I know you are. I know you've heard us.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  You can delete that comment and just get to work on the phone.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  All right. There's one more thing that Apple announced. And it was the final thing that they saved for Wednesday, which is a MacBook Neo, new name.

• 18:56David Imel?

  Cool name.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  We've never heard that word from Apple before. We thought it would just be the MacBook. So MacBook Neo is a $599 MacBook. It's a 13 inch display. It's powered by an A18 Pro chip. So not quite Apple silicon M series chip, but that was a chip that was in the iPhone 16 Pro and it seems to be right around the level of performance of M1. Probably a little better in single core, a little worse in multi-core. But anyway, A18 Pro inside, eight gigs of RAM, 256 gigs of storage and four colors. It's incredibly inexpensive. And so they've done all the things they have to do to get a MacBook, which is still made of metal all the way down. Like the keyboard's not backlit anymore. It's only

• 19:39Speaker 01

  two ports. Both are USB type C. One of them is USB 3, one of them is USB 2.

• 19:44David Imel?

  And they're not labeled.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  And they're not labeled. The back one is USB 3, the front one's USB 2. You probably figure that out sooner or later.

• 19:50Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't know if people will, bro. I don't think they, I don't think they will. If you figured it out, you shouldn't be buying this.

• 19:55David Imel?

  I think most people are just using these ports to charge and not using them for

• 19:58Speaker 01

  One to charge, one to plug something in, a mouse, a keyboard, some random accessory.

• 20:03David Imel?

  I don't know. Everything is wireless now.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  It's true. I think, cause this is for people that are doing every, it's the, like you said, you guys both said this, the Safari book, right? So like people are using online services almost exclusively with this computer. So like, why plug anything in except for charging it?

• 20:16David Imel?

  That's totally true.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. What else is true? Oh, so the keyboard, yeah, not backlit and the trackpad is not a force touch trackpad. It's an actual clicking trackpad and it's a little bit smaller.

• 20:25David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:26Andrew Manganelli?

  You said it felt good, though?

• 20:27Speaker 01

  It felt good. Felt totally fine. No issues with that at all. And the last thing I noticed is the keyboards were white and they had, so the, on the side, they had like moved the speakers to the side of the laptop.

• 20:38David Imel?

  Side firing.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Like side firing. I got a couple demos to listen to them. They do not sound good.

• 20:44David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  That's okay. They're just baseline out laptop speakers at this point.

• 20:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, before you move on, this is something I want to clarify on here because I asked you this question. I was reading in the review before you even got back or what you were writing and you say all the keyboards are white, but like on the picture, they look...

• 21:01David Imel?

  They're tinted.

• 21:02Andrew Manganelli?

  They're tinted, but like on apple.com, they look like colorful, very colorful. And then I did see some of your footage. You said the lighting wasn't great, but like it seems like they're closer to white.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're, they're, yeah, to, to be fair, I think apple.com pumps the color a little bit. I think they look light and tinted. So on the indigo laptop, for example, the keyboard looks light, light, light, light, light, light blue. Close to white, not quite white.

• 21:29Andrew Manganelli?

  On the website, it looks like dark purple almost?

• 21:32David Imel?

  Yeah, it looks dark.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not quite that.

• 21:33David Imel?

  So it's like La Croix blue?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  A breath of, exactly.

• 21:37David Imel?

  Yeah, like a truck passed by with a blue in it.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Somebody whispered blue at the factory.

• 21:41David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so slightly matching keyboards and even like matching wallpapers and UI elements by default out of the box. So like on the yellow laptop, the menu items are yellow and the keyboard is slightly yellow and it's like, okay, you got the citrus theme.

• 21:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I love the citrus one so much.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Are you into citrus? I was thinking about that. They asked me, what's your favorite color? There's citrus, there's, that's the yellow one. There's indigo, which is the blue, dark blue one. Then there's a pink one, which I think is called blush. And then there's silver.

• 22:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Andrew, what is it with you and piss colored tech?

• 22:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Yellow. I do like yellow a lot.

• 22:14David Imel?

  It's piss.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, they got him on the yellow.

• 22:16Andrew Manganelli?

  It looks good. Also, I just thought, where's Project Red?

• 22:20David Imel?

  Oh, yeah, that would be cool. The red would be sick.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:22David Imel?

  I don't know.

• 22:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Product red. Product red.

• 22:24David Imel?

  Yeah. In all the videos, I know the lighting was kinda [BLEEP].

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 22:27David Imel?

  The piss one looks like kinda, it looks like neon green.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  It, yeah, because the lighting, it's so tough. It, in person, it, it's giving lemon lime.

• 22:39David Imel?

  It's giving lemon.

• 22:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Like the Gatorade?

• 22:41David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Andrew Manganelli?

  It's like the best Gatorade flavor.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  So like a tiny bit of green, but not really.

• 22:46David Imel?

  The other morning.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  It's mostly yellow.

• 22:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Y'all haters.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  It's mostly yellow. It's my favorite flavor of Gatorade.

• 22:51Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't wanna hear that one. You probably should not say my favorite flavor while he's saying.

• 22:55David Imel?

  Wait, lemon lime is your favorite Gatorade flavor?

• 22:57Speaker 01

  I like orange and yellow, yeah.

• 22:59Andrew Manganelli?

  It's such a boring pick, but I think I agree with yellow. It's so good.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  The Gatorade?

• 23:04Andrew Manganelli?

  And then glacier cherry. What, what's your favorite flavor of Gatorade?

• 23:07David Imel?

  Like the red one.

• 23:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay, you can't, you can't call it boring and then go fruit punch. I agree with you.

• 23:13David Imel?

  Fruit punch is delicious.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  That's the default. That's the NPC Gatorade.

• 23:16Andrew Manganelli?

  No, the blue one.

• 23:17David Imel?

  Yeah, but.

• 23:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Which blue one?

• 23:18David Imel?

  Oh, god, I hate that one.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Light blue.

• 23:20David Imel?

  No, the problem with the blue one and the yellow one is that they make my sel- like saliva glands fire.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  They all do that.

• 23:26David Imel?

  The red one doesn't.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  It's so full of sugar, really?

• 23:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, are you drinking a zero?

• 23:29David Imel?

  I'm talking because they're a little bit sour.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Background. Anyway, there's four flavors of Gatorade here with this MacBook Neo.

• 23:38David Imel?

  The silver is the absolute best color because it looks just like the old 12-inch MacBook. It looks very clean.

• 23:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Everyone buying the silver is why we don't get fun colors on things anymore.

• 23:47David Imel?

  I know.

• 23:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Because they're giving us fun colors and y'all are like, I want silver.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  That's actually, I wanna see this distribution here. Because there's a silver one. You can get the boring one or a colorful one, and I wanna know what the spread ends up being for different colors.

• 23:58David Imel?

  Regular people will buy a color, schools will buy a thousand of the silver ones.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:02David Imel?

  And that's it. Everyone I know that pre-ordered one, pre-ordered the piss color, but I think it's just because they like.

• 24:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Have taste. Who do you know that pre-ordered a MacBook Neo?

• 24:09David Imel?

  Three people. It's do they know?

• 24:14David Imel?

  It's really, I mean. It's Project Linda. It's a phone. No, think about this. The A18 Pro is is about the M4 single-thread performance. Multi-threaded it's not, but for single, single-threaded tasks, it's about the M4.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  We should talk about what this computer is gonna be capable of, right? Okay, everyone sees it's the the smartphone chip. And to be fair, it will be not as good, especially with the eight gigs of memory. I think that's actually the real bottleneck, but it will not be good for video editing. It won't be good for gaming. They were bold enough to do a gaming demo for me on this, on a 60 Hz display.

• 24:49David Imel?

  Was it iPhone game though?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  It was basically an iPhone game. It didn't look that great. This is not for that. But if you think about who's gonna be buying this, it's a lot of schools, it's a lot of students, it's a lot of young people's first computer who you're getting them a Mac instead of a tablet or something, or like a cheap, a random HP or a Chromebook.

• 25:06David Imel?

  Yes.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  This, for those people, is a web browser, and it's, uh, spreadsheets, word processing, texting, basic stuff like that. Email. It's gonna kill it, all that. It's super good, and most of these things are single-core tasks that this chip is gonna be totally fine for. When you ask more of it, that's when you're gonna, you know, feel like the edges of performance of like, oh, wow, I can't play Fortnite on this laptop.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  I mean, you can play it on a phone. So like, you can do a lot of stuff at 60 Hz on this laptop. But I think us, like, looking at it, like, thinking, ooh, no, it's not Thunderbolt. Oh, no, it's not, like, higher refresh rate. Like, this isn't a, this isn't gonna be for that anyway. So I think it's actually a perfectly reasonable performance envelope. I think the eight gigs of memory is going to be like a time thing. Like, how long before apps are just using too much memory for this eight gigs?

• 25:57David Imel?

  I had an 8GB M1 MacBook, MacBook Air when it came out.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:01David Imel?

  And it's great up until your storage starts filling up, because it uses the swap memory.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:07David Imel?

  And the memory's very fast, so it's like, it's generally fine, but as soon as your storage starts filling up, it starts getting slow.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13David Imel?

  So, I don't know. I go back to the story with my sister, how she bought the, uh, she bought the Mac Mini. And the next day, the double storage model was the same price, so I told her to return it. She was like, why would I do that?

• 26:25Speaker 01

  I don't use storage. I just browse the web.

• 26:27David Imel?

  That's exactly what she said. What am I gonna do with storage?

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:30David Imel?

  And I was like.

• 26:34David Imel?

  Because regular people, like, we have so many things on our desktops and, like, locally on our computer, because it's video files and it's big photos and it's all this stuff. Regular people just do everything on the web browser.

• 26:44Speaker 03

  I know, but that web browser is usually Google Chrome, which demands 64 gigabytes of RAM.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Safari book.

• 26:50David Imel?

  This is why this is the Safari book.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Safari book.

• 26:53Speaker 03

  Which I, you know how I feel about Safari. I'm like the biggest Safari evangelist of all time, but like, I don't know, man. Yeah, I love Safari. I'll never use anything else.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Here's an interesting spec about, like, what might make this a Safari book. The battery size on this laptop is significantly smaller than a MacBook Air. MacBook Air has something like a 55 watt hour battery. This has a 36 and a half watt hour battery. But they're quoting almost the same battery life as a MacBook Air. I guarantee that's mostly like video playback and using Safari, because the second you throw Chrome on this thing, it's going to tank through that half-sized battery. So this is, this is specifically like you're using Apple's apps, you're using Safari, you're using iMessage, you're using Apple Music, and that's, that's gonna be great.

• 27:36David Imel?

  It's also lower TDE, because it's a, literally the phone processor. But like, an M processor is just a big phone processor. They're pretty much the same architecture.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  I think it also comes with like a 20 watt charger, because it's such a small battery, it doesn't need a big charger. And that's, yeah, lower, total lower power envelope.

• 27:52David Imel?

  Wow.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  It is so crazy that you can run macOS on an A18.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. What's also crazy is we've been running iPadOS on an M4.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  That is also crazy.

• 28:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Now an M5, right?

• 28:05David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 28:06Andrew Manganelli?

  No, no, no, sorry.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  M4 iPad, yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 03

  Like, what else could we be doing? You know? Can I run Linux on a toaster? Like, are we?

• 28:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 28:15David Imel?

  Absolutely.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Isn't there an A19 Pro in the Studio Display XDR? Like, they just print these chips.

• 28:21David Imel?

  Yeah, they put the iPhone in that display just for the camera.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  This chip is so cheap for them to make, it's unbelievable.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  To Ellis's point, though, that was the one takeaway that I had from this MacBook Neo thing, was like, oh, so you can run macOS on these phone chips, they just choose not to.

• 28:35David Imel?

  For sure.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  So you think I can plug in the iPhone fold and have a macOS experience? Because it's possible, clearly.

• 28:41David Imel?

  They might do that. I don't know. Especially if Google's doing it.

• 28:44Speaker 04

  That would be freaking awesome.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  I think that's a philosophical thing, because what you're saying makes perfect logical sense. And we are the consumer, and so we're thinking logically about this. But if you're Apple, and I've thought a lot about this recently, like the super, super powerful iPad is still not good enough to be your full-time. That's a $2,000 M4 powered iPad.

• 29:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  And it's still not your full-time laptop.

• 29:04David Imel?

  For some people.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  It could be.

• 29:05David Imel?

  For a lot of people.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  If I could plug in an iPad and have Mac OS, there it is.

• 29:10David Imel?

  It just depends on what you do.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  There's some evangelists, and there's a small fraction of people who are like iPad sickos that are like, "Yes, I got rid of my laptop. Yes, this is the thing." And you can do that if you're really dedicated.

• 29:21David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  But I think for most people, they're specifically designing these products to live alongside each other. Apple's like, "Please buy a MacBook and an iPad."

• 29:30David Imel?

  Buy everything.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Use Sidecar, use Continuity, use the sync across the devices. They are perfect for each other. Michael, our graphics guy, he uses an iPad, he said, "Just for the pencil and to draw things and then for Sidecar."

• 29:43David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, but he also uses a Magic Mouse, so like.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:47David Imel?

  I mean, if you buy like a used iPad Air for pretty cheap, having an external display that you can just have at any time is pretty awesome, too.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, for your Mac.

• 29:55David Imel?

  For your Mac.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  So they're like, "Please buy both."

• 29:57David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  And so for as powerful as they're willing to make the iPad Pro, they are not willing to make it powerful enough philosophically to be your full-time computer. They want you to use it alongside a Mac.

• 30:07David Imel?

  It's an artificial limitation.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  It is, 100%.

• 30:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 30:10Speaker 04

  So Apple specializes in it.

• 30:11David Imel?

  I know.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  It's their specialty.

• 30:13David Imel?

  But they also let you plug it into the display, and they talk about how with the new displays.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  I loved that.

• 30:17David Imel?

  Yeah, they talk about how with the new displays, like you can plug the iPad, the new iPad Pro into the 120 Hz display, and it'll like run at 120 Hz, and you can do all the things. And I think if they're letting you plug the iPad into that display with the Thunderbolt cable and like run iPadOS on the display, they will probably let you do that with the fold. That's my guess.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Have you ever noticed the demos, though, that they run? Whenever they do that, I pay very close attention to the demos that Apple constructs to demo their products, right? And whenever they do the like iPad plugged into the Studio Display, they immediately open Procreate, and they just start like doing the artist thing.

• 30:50David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  They never do file management.

• 30:52David Imel?

  No.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  They never do multitasking. They're doing like the very simple like, "Oh, here's the big display so you can view your work" thing. That's on purpose. I think if they wanted you to do all that like computer stuff,

• 31:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  They'd be selling you a computer.

• 31:04David Imel?

  I will say, uh, really quick with the new display, the, the really good one, the XDR one, they have the camera in it now. So they can just get, you should, you guys should just get rid of continuity camera. Cause every, there's many times when I get on a video call and my feed is just black and I don't understand why. And then I realize it automatically connected to my phone. It's in my pocket and I'm like, oh, this is annoying.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  That's true, but please don't. Actually, hmm. Because.

• 31:28David Imel?

  You don't have to get rid of it. I'm just saying it's.

• 31:30Speaker 03

  Like when I'm in the audio room and you need to take a call, there's no webcam in that room, right? And I, I have so peripheralled up in that setup. Like I really don't want to add another one.

• 31:38David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  But I recently added my iPad as a third monitor with sidecar.

• 31:43David Imel?

  You can use that camera?

• 31:44Speaker 03

  No, but I just closed the, the sidecar window and take the call on the iPad.

• 31:50David Imel?

  Oh.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:50David Imel?

  That's cool.

• 31:51Speaker 03

  It is cool.

• 31:52David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  So I, yeah, I guess you could get rid of it.

• 31:54David Imel?

  Marques, I want to know, cause you actually played with, uh, these laptops. People are talking about the thickness.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:00David Imel?

  Can you talk about that?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Sure. So.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  Are you down with the thickness?

• 32:04Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people will be totally fine with it. So technically it is a little bit smaller than the iPad, uh, than the MacBook Air. It is a 13 inch display instead of 13.6, right? But it is basically the exact same weight and it is actually slightly thicker because of the lack of wedge shape. And that's not to hold more battery. It's not even like a bigger battery. It's just like, this is a not engineered for maximum thinness air. So it feels like an air to me when I'm holding it.

• 32:30David Imel?

  It does.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  I didn't worry about like extra weight or thickness. It's, I think technically on paper, a 10th of an inch thicker than the MacBook Air.

• 32:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  So like, not a big deal.

• 32:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 32:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Is it, I'm assuming it's not wedge shaped because now the speakers are down here, right?

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not wedge.

• 32:43Andrew Manganelli?

  If you wedge it all the way down to there, you can't have the speakers in the bottom corner. And also the headphone jack there looks really strange.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is weird.

• 32:50Andrew Manganelli?

  It is really weird.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  It's really low.

• 32:51David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 32:52Andrew Manganelli?

  It kind, it makes more sense to be honest.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  I was trying to figure out why it makes more sense.

• 32:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Cause it's just closer to you and when you have actual headphones you're plugging in, the further, I mean, it's like.

• 33:02David Imel?

  Three inches closer.

• 33:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Eight inches, it would probably be

• 33:05David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 33:05Andrew Manganelli?

  The difference, but yeah.

• 33:06David Imel?

  I will say, uh, the refurbished 13 inch MacBook Air right now on Apple's website is $750.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  This is how I think I need to review this computer.

• 33:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Is if you are thinking about buying a MacBook Neo and you want to be a little bit like, you want to like, look into it a little bit, there's actually two other things you could do for $600 is you could get an M1 MacBook Air.

• 33:30David Imel?

  M1.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Right?

• 33:32David Imel?

  That'd be really cheap.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  That would be a potentially just as good computer for you, but it's an M chip. Um, you get more software support from buying a Neo today because you're starting today at day zero and have years of software, but you know, maybe you think an M1 Air will have a better display, more multi-threaded, whatever. That's a choice you could make. Uh, and the other is you could still buy like a 500, $600 Windows computer or a Chromebook for that price.

• 34:00David Imel?

  That is.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  It's, and I think it's, we all have this reaction because we're like, well, why would you do that? If you could get macOS, but I think that's the comparison that I need to put it all, I need to put these things all in line and see like, what's the advantage? What's the best Windows laptop I can get for $5.99? For students, $4.99, that's going to be tough, but I want to actually figure that out.

• 34:20Andrew Manganelli?

  I think it's like, if you're watching or listening to this podcast right now, that might be a something you look into. Most people buying this, they, and those people might find your regular channel review, going to buy it. They just like, to me, the MacBook Neo is, it's a laptop. All of us don't have laptops anymore. We have full-blown workstations that happen to be in a laptop now because we got to that point. Maybe workstation's not the right word, but like, these are insanely powerful for this, but when you think about what we just used to do with laptops, we would never sat at a desk with them and like plugged it into something. We would sit on the couch or a chair or a coffee shop and like, that's what the Neo is.

• 35:01David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 35:01Andrew Manganelli?

  It's just a laptop.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  That's a world I've never known.

• 35:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Like what?

• 35:04Speaker 03

  My first, oh, my first laptop was like a plug into a, a workstation desk and like, and do it. And I remember. Being like, yo, why are laptops not as powerful as computers until M, the M series?

• 35:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 03

  And it's just like, why would we go back?

• 35:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Like Claire has a laptop. It's never, she's never sat at a desk with it. She uses it on the couch or maybe at the dining room table or like in the, like, and she uses it at work sometimes. I guess that's at a desk. But like, those are laptop things. Should we just do laptop things or?

• 35:35Speaker 03

  We need to do like a studio video that's like a competition between a MacBook Air, a Neo, Windows PC and an iPad. Cause I'm, I'm so curious where the edge cases that one category, one of those cannot do.

• 35:51Andrew Manganelli?

  I think this is that point though, where if you're watching a video of like a competition between a Neo and something else, you're out of the Neo range already.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  No, but like even for like, like genuinely, what can you not do on an iPad that you can do on a Neo? You can get a keyboard. You can Bluetooth any keyboard to an iPad.

• 36:09David Imel?

  I know, but.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Here, so that might be one thing to add to my discussion because the base iPads, 329.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  The keyboard and trackpad they make for it are $250. So that's 600 right there.

• 36:19David Imel?

  Sure.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  So you could get, you could get that and you can do file management and multi-window and most stuff.

• 36:26Speaker 03

  It's modular at that point too.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  And you have a touchscreen if you want it.

• 36:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  And you could pop it off. Yeah. It's, it's maybe that's one more option.

• 36:33Andrew Manganelli?

  Can't put it on your lap.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  And I, I would also.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  That's very true.

• 36:38Speaker 03

  I would also argue that the people, the, the market for the Neo is more likely to use cloud storage.

• 36:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, yes.

• 36:47Speaker 03

  Just almost all. The file management doesn't matter really on like the iPad. I don't know, man. I think.

• 36:52David Imel?

  I just like integrated laptops more than two in one touchscreens with detachable keyboards.

• 36:59Andrew Manganelli?

  I also think we're overthinking this.

• 37:00David Imel?

  Yep.

• 37:00Andrew Manganelli?

  I think if, if a parent walks into Best Buy and sees three laptops and an iPad that are all $600, they're buying the Neo because they're familiar with Apple. It looks like. This thing is going to sell.

• 37:11David Imel?

  Yeah. Also, education discount is a hundred dollars off. So it's $500 with the education discount.

• 37:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I ask a question? If any of you guys might know? I asked this to Marquez and I wasn't like, when I always think of getting an educational discount. It's usually with a dot edu email address, which is college, but like very clearly this is great for high school and.

• 37:29David Imel?

  It might work if you have like a high school ID. I'm not sure.

• 37:31Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I guess a high school ID, but it's harder to prove you are a student. And if you don't have to, then I'm just going to walk into an Apple store with a kid and be like, look at this student over here.

• 37:40Speaker 03

  It's been a long time since I was in that world, but I believe Apple partners with a company called Unidays to do educational status verification. Like for the past, ever since I was in college, like even my freshman year of college, to get any Apple edu discounts, you needed to first go through the Unidays verification.

• 38:00Andrew Manganelli?

  And that's just like high school students?

• 38:02Speaker 03

  No, that's why I'm saying like, I don't know how you would do it as a high school student. You need to like, you need to give them a bunch of documents, like your, your transcripts and like your.

• 38:10Andrew Manganelli?

  I guess.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  But also I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of high schoolers are getting edu emails now.

• 38:16David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 38:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Possibly. I feel like also a lot of middle schools, high schools are the ones supplying the computers for the classrooms, at least in the US from what I've seen, but I'm sure there's plenty of.

• 38:25David Imel?

  How do schools work in 2026? I don't really know how.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  You go and then your open claw teacher tells you some lies about George Washington and then you go home and like play Fortnite and drink caffeine all night, right?

• 38:38Andrew Manganelli?

  I remember in like eighth grade when we got a smart board and the thing just never worked. So they just used the whiteboard instead. And we were like, damn, look at this technology.

• 38:45David Imel?

  You guys had a smart board in eighth grade?

• 38:47Andrew Manganelli?

  It was called a.

• 38:47David Imel?

  It never worked though.

• 38:48Andrew Manganelli?

  It never worked.

• 38:49David Imel?

  It never worked. We just watched movies on the CRT, baby. That's all we did.

• 38:53Andrew Manganelli?

  The smart board wound up just being the projector white screen essentially, and they never used the fake markers on it.

• 38:58David Imel?

  Seventy pound TV.

• 38:59Andrew Manganelli?

  The overhead projector, not a projector.

• 39:01David Imel?

  This might be, I might be at the end of people who had these transparencies. This is like maybe the end of high school.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  I had transparencies in middle school.

• 39:09David Imel?

  Okay, yeah. So that like the projector with the transparent thing.

• 39:13Andrew Manganelli?

  The overhead projector. That's what I just said. Yeah.

• 39:15David Imel?

  The overhead projector. Overhead? No, no overhead. It's on a cart.

• 39:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, it's on a cart, but it's for some reason it's called the overhead projector because I think the mirror, whatever that's above it is over top of it.

• 39:24David Imel?

  Shine a light.

• 39:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Leads into it. Yeah.

• 39:26David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah, that thing.

• 39:27Andrew Manganelli?

  That was always funny when they erased and just wiped stuff all over the place.

• 39:31David Imel?

  That is an evolution of slide film, by the way, which was used specifically for slides like that. So they could draw on it.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Anyway, stay tuned for the Neo review.

• 39:38David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  I do think this is, yeah, I do think this is potentially one of the most disruptive products of the last couple of years. I think a lot of Chromebook sellers and Windows laptop OEMs who have been feasting in that price segment are very worried about that one.

• 39:54David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  But we'll see.

• 39:56Andrew Manganelli?

  Can I throw one other like pro of this out here, which is the pro to all Apple products in the US at least is like-

• 40:01Speaker 01

  It's not a pro, it's a Neo.

• 40:02David Imel?

  That's, I was gonna make the joke and then I thought it was-

• 40:07Andrew Manganelli?

  No, it's just like, when we're looking at cheaper products that are specifically not for tech people, the biggest pro of me suggesting this is when it breaks on you, I can tell you to go to an Apple store and get it fixed and I don't have to diagnose everything over the phone. Like, it's so much easier to just be like, "Hey, you can get the help here."

• 40:24David Imel?

  I was thinking that because I've bought my mom computers before. Like, I bought her like a Chromebook before. I think, "Oh, it's Chrome. It's just Chrome. She can't mess it up. I was wrong."

• 40:35David Imel?

  There are just infinite ways. And, you know, if she could just go to a store and I don't have to be her son, then I guess that, you know, it's great. Anyway, I want to make one more thing. The closest analogy to this is the Surface Go. Do you guys remember that computer?

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Oh, they tried a Snapdragon one?

• 40:51David Imel?

  It was not Snapdragon. It was Intel Pentium Gold 4415Y.

• 40:55Speaker 04

  Bless you.

• 40:57David Imel?

  Thanks. And if you remember, Dave 2D just shat all over this computer because it was so bad. And it started at 400 bucks just for the tablet and then you still had to buy the keyboard and the pen, which were more expensive. I believe altogether it was probably about the same price as this Neo device. And it sucked. It really did. It was seven years, it's seven years old now, obviously. And they made a better one that made it better, but it was still expensive and bad. So, I'm just saying-

• 41:29David Imel?

  Look, all the tech PC channels, Linus Tech Tips. Linus is slowly, like, has been making videos being like, "Oh no, oh no." "Mac is better value than Windows in like, almost every way now." Like, there is no, it's very hard, unless you're a gamer at this point, to recommend yourself a Windows computer. Also, like-

• 41:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Also, everyone's mad at Windows, so that helps.

• 41:54David Imel?

  Yeah, because Microsoft is a legacy corporation that doesn't, anyway, I'm gonna get so yelled at, but I'm just saying-

• 42:00Andrew Manganelli?

  That's okay.

• 42:01David Imel?

  I'm just saying-

• 42:01Andrew Manganelli?

  The Surface Go, if you look at it from the side, just looks like a bad math problem. There's so many angles going on. The keyboard is like, slightly flipped up-

• 42:11David Imel?

  Oh yeah, it flexed a lot.

• 42:12Andrew Manganelli?

  And then it's got the stand and like, everything about this. I don't know.

• 42:15David Imel?

  Again, it was, it's seven years old, I get that. But there just hasn't really been anything, except for like, a Chromebook, that is this price and can do this many things. And a lot of people, especially in the United States, own iPhones and the integration and all that stuff. Yeah, I mean, this is a pretty, this is a pretty serious computer from Apple. I'm still, I'm very interested to get it in and have us like, test it and play with it and see what it ends up being like. But, being M4 single-thread performance, when that's what everyone wants most of the time, single-thread performance, is like, you know?

• 42:47Andrew Manganelli?

  It's just yellow, too. It's sick.

• 42:49David Imel?

  It's piss, Andrew.

• 42:50Andrew Manganelli?

  It's so good.

• 42:51David Imel?

  The silver is the best.

• 42:52Andrew Manganelli?

  I want the yellow keyboard so bad.

• 42:54David Imel?

  I'm happy for you.

• 42:57David Imel?

  I think we have to take it to trivia.

• 42:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 42:58David Imel?

  Stay tuned.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  But first...

• 43:07Speaker 03

  I messed up.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  I was so diligently researching when the Galaxy Buds actually came out, because it was a more difficult thing to research than you would expect.

• 43:20David Imel?

  You mean the Galaxy Gear Icon X?

• 43:21Speaker 03

  No.

• 43:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Try AI overview?

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Eh, I would never try AI overview. Dude, okay. AI overview almost messed me up for this week, too. I spent way too much of, if you saw me on my phone and on my computer, on the computer, I'll... Anyway, Marquez, you stated yesterday that the Buds came out before the fold, or, I don't know what you stated. Yesterday, last week. Last week.

• 43:43David Imel?

  Last week.

• 43:44Speaker 03

  But you said the opposite of the other two boys, and you were actually correct, and I was wrong.

• 43:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Who, I just want, whoever put the comment correcting them, uh, please unsubscribe.

• 43:58Andrew Manganelli?

  That was the first point David and I got in what felt like weeks.

• 44:01David Imel?

  Hey, man, I got another point last week.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Wow, that's a huge sum. One point up and y'all are both one point down. That's huge for me.

• 44:08David Imel?

  No, I'm not. I'm like-

• 44:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Huge for the program.

• 44:10David Imel?

  I got the other question correct, though, so it's okay.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  I know, but you both have minus one point and I have plus that point now. So it's a two-point, two-point spread.

• 44:17Speaker 04

  I just want to say shout out to Alex Waddell, who sent us that. I'm Blue Sky.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Appreciate that.

• 44:23David Imel?

  I'm Blue Sky.

• 44:24Andrew Manganelli?

  See, you can admit- We need to nuke Blue Sky.

• 44:25David Imel?

  You can admit that there's value to Blue Sky.

• 44:28Speaker 04

  Make a way for my ca-

• 44:29Andrew Manganelli?

  You just got a point taken away.

• 44:30Speaker 04

  Make a way for my ca-

• 44:31David Imel?

  Yeah, okay.

• 44:33Speaker 03

  So, the trivia question for this week is one that I hopefully cannot get wrong. So I wrote a crazy question that honestly, let's go for it. I will give each of you one point for every tech product that you can name that has the word Neo in it.

• 44:51David Imel?

  Okay.

• 44:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Assuming MacBook Neo does not count.

• 44:53Speaker 03

  MacBook Neo does not count and, um, and the word, it doesn't need to have the words, like a space between the Neo and another thing.

• 44:59Andrew Manganelli?

  It just has N-E-O in it somewhere?

• 45:02Speaker 03

  Okay. Yeah, sure. Honestly, I don't, yeah. It just has the letters N-E-O consecutively in the product name. The reason I was gonna say AI over MSP up is because I was just making sure that there were enough tech products with the word Neo in the name to even have-

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Tech product?

• 45:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, it has to be a tech product. And tech product can be really broad, like uses electricity broad.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Oh, I know one. I don't even, oh Nero, nevermind. I don't even know-

• 45:25Speaker 03

  No, that doesn't count. There's an R.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  Um, but what was really funny is that when the MacBook Neo got announced, a bunch of AI slop videos came out um, that were fake Samsung product announcements for a phone called the Samsung S26 Ultra Neo that doesn't exist. Just because as people would Google MacBook Neo, this, this would also get served.

• 45:45Andrew Manganelli?

  See, back in my day-

• 45:46Speaker 03

  Of course, AI overview does not know that those are, that's AI slop videos. So when you Google Samsung Neo to see if that ever existed, you get this really in-depth overview with specs of the Samsung S26 Ultra Neo, a phone that does not exist.

• 46:02Andrew Manganelli?

  It slopped now. Back in our day, it was just small channels making the Pixel Ultra instead.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  All right, well, we will learn or we will know the answers. They'll be at the end like usual. We'll be right back.

• 46:21Speaker 01

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• 47:21Speaker 05

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• 48:45Speaker 01

  All right, welcome back. Let's talk about Nothing. Damn, I make a pun every time I talk about that company. Nothing came out with.

• 48:52David Imel?

  Not say anything.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry, I had to.

• 48:54David Imel?

  It's okay.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  But Nothing's coming out with three things. Nothing Phone 4A, Nothing Phone 4A Pro, and Nothing Phone Headphones. Nothing Phone, Nothing Headphones A, Nothing A Headphones.

• 49:05David Imel?

  Headphones A.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Headphones A.

• 49:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Headphones parentheses A.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. God, their naming is still kind of tough, not gonna lie. Nothing's a weird name for a company.

• 49:13David Imel?

  It is.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Anyway, so the 4A is the one that most of us are interested in. It's a 350 pound, AKA.

• 49:22David Imel?

  That's a really heavy phone, dude.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  I know, it's a joke. 350 dollar-ish phone coming out in a bunch of markets. I think it's, this is the one that's going global. New design.

• 49:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, which one? The 4A is UK, Europe, India.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Okay, so the 4A Pro is a global one. Got it. 4A is in those markets.

• 49:41David Imel?

  I guess.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Blue and black. Yeah, so it's a slight spec bump. It's got a couple new interesting things. I think people in this room have called it the best looking Nothing phone ever.

• 49:51Andrew Manganelli?

  We talked a lot about the design last week.

• 49:53David Imel?

  It's got pink.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Do you still feel that way?

• 49:55David Imel?

  I need to look at it again.

• 49:56Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll go, it's hard to say compared to the Pro. The Pro looks really nice, but not in the colors. Just the regular silver Pro looks really nice.

• 50:08Andrew Manganelli?

  I think 4A is still nicer looking.

• 50:10David Imel?

  4A, I think, is a more general, nice looking phone. The 4A Pro is really cool and kind of almost gamery, but in like a subtle way.

• 50:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, I don't, we can get into that soon.

• 50:22David Imel?

  Yeah, I think, yeah, true.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  I'll just jump into the specs of the 4A.

• 50:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, real quick though, but last week, we only talked about the pink and the white. There's also a blue and a black. So there's four colors for it.

• 50:33David Imel?

  The blue looks good, too.

• 50:34Andrew Manganelli?

  The blue looks really nice.

• 50:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  So this is running a Snapdragon 7S Gen 4. It has a 5,080 mAh battery with 50W charging, IP64, a pretty bright display. It says 4,500 nits peak brightness. I almost never know what to make of that. I kind of want to know just what the regular-

• 50:51David Imel?

  4,500?

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, like in peak HDR, like 1 pixel will be at 4,500 nits and then you can put that number on the spec sheet.

• 50:57Andrew Manganelli?

  One of the glyph LEDs on the back?

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, Gorilla Glass 7i. Uh, it's got triple cameras. It's got a pretty good looking set of specs for a phone that is this cheap.

• 51:09David Imel?

  I have a question for the audience that maybe you guys can answer. People still seem to care about processors.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:17David Imel?

  Hard stop. And I, I understand the gaming aspect of it, I suppose. Although I'm not really sure what mobile optimized games don't run at high frame rates anymore. Maybe like Genshin Impact or something. That seems to be the, the benchmark. But I still see people caring about the processors. And I'm like, if it, if the processor is lower tier, quote unquote, but it enables things like super bright, uh, 120 Hz, 50W charging, like all this stuff, why do you care? This is my question.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Great question. I think this is another thing where in the bubble that we're in of people over analyzing every little detail about a phone, like the enthusiasts.

• 51:57David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  They care about getting the most for their money. And so when a slightly better available part is out there, they want that one instead of the one they got. But I think for most people, a lot of people, especially even sometimes watching these, but who are just more casually shopping, they are not thinking about the difference between the Snapdragon 8 Elite or the Snapdragon 8 Elite Gen 5 or the Snapdragon 8 Elite Gen 5 for Galaxy. Like they're all a good chip and the phone performs well. Therefore I'm not getting ripped off.

• 52:27Andrew Manganelli?

  I, I agree with you. I use a tensor chip, so clearly I don't give a [BLEEP] about performance. But I think like what Mark has said in like this more range of things, when you're probably cross shopping, if I'm looking at two phones at the same price and one chip is better, then I'm probably going to go that for the longevity route.

• 52:45David Imel?

  Sure.

• 52:45Andrew Manganelli?

  That's when I, I'm hoping that's when people care about it more so here. But I also- As much as I love speaking for the audience, I'm probably wrong when I do it.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  No, there's two audiences.

• 52:56Speaker 04

  I think it's less like the people that care about the frame rates on the newest game. It's more so how long will this phone last me? I'm spending like $500, $600 after taxes. Like, I want it to last a while.

• 53:07David Imel?

  Well, Apple would say that running at a lower clock speed actually makes the phone last longer, which is why they force lower clock speeds, but they can't really do anymore.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  I think that's a perfect example of the two different audiences.

• 53:17David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  There's one audience who's like, how dare you? I want the highest clock speed so I have every single frame. I want the maximum performance. And then there's the other audience. Then there's the other audience who wants just the phone. Hey, it works, so make it last as long as possible. So if you were in the first bucket, who's like, I want to maximize and get the best possible performance, especially when you're buying a higher end phone, I think it makes way more sense to pixel peep and to really want the most out of your phone, then that makes sense. But if you're buying a $350 phone and it just works, and especially with, I think Nothing Software is pretty good. Like, it's smooth enough. I don't think it would even feel that different on a Snapdragon 8 Elite versus a 7S Gen 4.

• 53:54David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  So it's like, yeah, as long as it lasts me a couple of years and doesn't fall apart, seems like it's a good enough chip.

• 54:00David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:01David Imel?

  You know what I mean? So that's the regular three, the 4A. And we also got the 4A Pro, which I have to say, like, got announced this morning.

• 54:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Surprise.

• 54:10David Imel?

  You probably got some early stuff about it.

• 54:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 54:12David Imel?

  I did not know anything about it. It didn't leak online. This has got to be one of the first tech launches that hasn't leaked.

• 54:19Andrew Manganelli?

  They played us.

• 54:21David Imel?

  A very long time.

• 54:21Andrew Manganelli?

  I feel like they, the design video last week was to be like...

• 54:27David Imel?

  Look over here.

• 54:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, they literally like...

• 54:29David Imel?

  Slide him in.

• 54:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. And they did a good job at it. Yeah, this morning I came in, I was like, we have a lot to talk about the pod. I have a lot to write this morning because we also had to shoot S26 review. And then I sit down and there's two new Nothing products I didn't know about. I was like, oh my God.

• 54:42Speaker 04

  We did know about it technically. Marques told us last week.

• 54:45Andrew Manganelli?

  Marques did not tell me about, I asked earlier.

• 54:49Speaker 04

  He told us on the podcast. I left it in the edit.

• 54:51David Imel?

  He did ask, is there a 4A Pro? And I was like, yeah, probably.

• 54:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:57David Imel?

  He said, yeah, but I thought you were just speculating.

• 54:59Andrew Manganelli?

  Me too.

• 55:00David Imel?

  Exactly.

• 55:00Speaker 04

  Why are you hiding from us, Marques?

• 55:02David Imel?

  I only say what I'm allowed to say.

• 55:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Earlier this week, I said, hey, I'm writing podcasts. Can you send me the 4A specs so I can write it down? And you're like, sure. And dude sent the pro or the headphones.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't get the 4A Pro info. That was the thing. So, so, uh, so the event was in London. The literal hours after the Apple event in New York. So I couldn't physically be at both. So I made the decision to see the six Apple devices in New York and I wasn't able to teleport to London fast enough to also see the 4A Pro.

• 55:32David Imel?

  Bummer.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  Dude, what's wrong with you?

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I couldn't. There, I actually looked. I was like, is there a flight that takes off? And gets me there at like 3 o'clock in the morning so I can just show up and make a video? But no, there were, there were no flights I could make that happen.

• 55:48Speaker 03

  We're cutting that.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Why?

• 55:51Speaker 03

  Dude, because that's not [bleep] real.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  We talked about it, though.

• 55:54Speaker 03

  It's true. That [bleep] is not coming out. Are you kidding?

• 55:56Speaker 01

  That's why we couldn't take it. That's why we couldn't fly on it.

• 55:58David Imel?

  That's true.

• 55:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, that.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  But yeah, so anyway, this, this stuff was, uh, was sort of held in, in London for us to see from those who are actually there with cameras.

• 56:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  And it looks pretty good. The specs also look pretty good. So the 4A Pro, again, it's a 4A Pro, not a, not a full flagship. It's not a 4. So because it's a 4A Pro, it's got a Snapdragon 7 Gen 4 chip.

• 56:21David Imel?

  I'm gonna kill myself.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  I think this is just them coping that it's like, hey, if you want to put a mid-range chip in this, you can't call it a flagship. If this was a Snapdragon 8 Elite, then they could call it a flagship. But since it's not, all right, we have to call it the A Pro instead of the flagship. Fine. So Snapdragon 7 Gen 4, uh, 6.83 inch AMOLED. It's 120 Hz display, but it will sometimes get to 144 Hz, depending on the app, kind of similar to some other gaming phones have.

• 56:46David Imel?

  Okay.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Um, 5,000 nit peak brightness, which means nothing to me. 5,000 milliampere hour battery, 50 watt charging, triple cameras again, better cameras though than the 4A. So. And better looking. It's got the glyph on the back. It's got a.

• 56:59David Imel?

  It's got the Nothing Phone 3 like little display thing.

• 57:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, in a better way. So like, if you haven't seen it yet, it is an all metal body, which is.

• 57:10David Imel?

  Awesome. Beautiful.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Except for wireless charging, because it doesn't have that, because it can't.

• 57:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, I didn't even think of that.

• 57:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 57:16Andrew Manganelli?

  Pooh pooh. Um, it has like a large camera bump, similar to an iPhone in terms of footprint, but this is proof that you can do that like everyone else and make it unique, because this is actually sweet. Essentially, one main camera, top left corner, dual camera.

• 57:30David Imel?

  Below.

• 57:31Andrew Manganelli?

  What are we calling them again? Pills?

• 57:33David Imel?

  It's a pill.

• 57:33Andrew Manganelli?

  The pill? The bean. We got a bean, a double camera bean, under that horizontally, then to the right of that, a large circle glyph interface, which I believe has 137 mini LEDs, is 57% larger and twice as bright compared to the phone 3 glyph interface.

• 57:50David Imel?

  Wow, yeah.

• 57:51Andrew Manganelli?

  And, we still have the red recording LED on it, because that should be on every single phone ever.

• 57:57David Imel?

  Yes.

• 57:57Andrew Manganelli?

  But then, encased in that is a full metal, silver, pink, or black body.

• 58:04David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 58:04Andrew Manganelli?

  It looks great. It also has the like-

• 58:05David Imel?

  Cooking over there. It looks so beautiful.

• 58:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Has like the little circular like indent on the bottom that matches the new Pixel Buds, or, uh, sorry, not Pixel Buds.

• 58:14David Imel?

  Nothing.

• 58:15Andrew Manganelli?

  Nothing Buds, feels like that. It's just like-

• 58:17David Imel?

  Spin thing.

• 58:17Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, matches all together really well. Although-

• 58:20David Imel?

  The pink, I will say, um, okay, so like, in the camera bar, it is color matched on the silver, and it's color matched on the black, but the pink is still silver, so it looks really weird.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Actually, wait.

• 58:31David Imel?

  I kinda wish that they made that pink.

• 58:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Here's, my problem is, look at this picture on The Verge. That looks, this is the black phone, but it looks like a silver camera bump, and the black metal looks like it got like, plastidipped, instead of like-

• 58:46Speaker 01

  I think the silver version of this phone is the best looking on.

• 58:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Is 100%.

• 58:49David Imel?

  It looks great.

• 58:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 58:50David Imel?

  I will say, like, I miss the HTC Full Metal Body phones, and, um, if you're not gonna have wireless charging, which I still really love wireless charging, all metal is pretty awesome. I'm curious about, uh, heat, and how that ends up working out. Maybe because this chipset is, you know, a little bit lower performance, it's not gonna get as hot.

• 59:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Is there a vapor chamber in there?

• 59:10David Imel?

  Uh, probably.

• 59:11Andrew Manganelli?

  I don't actually know.

• 59:12David Imel?

  I don't know. I don't know. The renders might look better than these in person. I'm very curious to see them in person. Um, it's definitely more gamery than their other devices.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  It's a little more, I don't know, I'm not getting gamery as much as-

• 59:26Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm not getting gamer.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  I'm getting like, R2-D2-

• 59:28David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  It's like, a little playful, pill morphing-

• 59:32Andrew Manganelli?

  It feels like a phone that they took the Nothing Buds and just put it in the camera bump. Like, that's where all the Nothing design aesthetic is, the clear and kind of like, red accent and whatever, and then there is a little bit at the bottom. Bottom, but I kind of dig it because it's not trying too hard while also trying too hard.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Which is a hard thing to do.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Do we see the price yet?

• 59:52David Imel?

  499.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  499. So not flagship price?

• 59:56David Imel?

  No.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  I think a pretty good price, actually.

• 59:57David Imel?

  It's cheaper than the Pixel.

• 59:59Andrew Manganelli?

  It is interesting though, because it's 499 USD, 499 pounds and 479 euros, which if you do the, they've done this before where like they match the price, but when you do conversion rates on that is wildly different.

• 1:00:12David Imel?

  Yeah, it's a better. It's the same price as the Pixel 10A, right?

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Uh, 499?

• 1:00:17David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:17Andrew Manganelli?

  While you guys are looking, my favorite thing about the video was it says world's first 140x zoom asterisk, and then it says claims are based on publicly available data at launch, which I think is to claim that it's the world's first 140x zoom, which again just feels such a ridiculous.

• 1:00:33David Imel?

  It's gonna look really bad. If you zoom into 140x, what are you doing?

• 1:00:37Andrew Manganelli?

  Have you watched the video?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:00:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Even when it zooms in on the like perfectly rendered video of everything, this looks terrible.

• 1:00:45David Imel?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hey, at least they're honest.

• 1:00:47Andrew Manganelli?

  Here, real quick, it's 499 for the eight gigs of RAM, 128 storage.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:52Andrew Manganelli?

  Another hundred dollars for the 12 gigs of RAM, 256 storage. That's the only two options.

• 1:00:56David Imel?

  Just do 1000x and just make it look really bad.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, what's stopping you from going to 2000?

• 1:01:01David Imel?

  Yeah, exactly. You could just brand it that way. 2000x zoom.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  World's first.

• 1:01:05David Imel?

  World's first.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06David Imel?

  Um, yeah, I think it looks pretty good. I think the Nothing, uh, design team has been really cooking recently.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  I think they also did the thing where they kind of, uh, made the previous stuff worse so that we'd go, wow, they cooked this time. Look at the improvement. Probably not.

• 1:01:22David Imel?

  I. What do you mean, made it worse?

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Like how the iPhone 16E was so bad that when the 17E was what it should have been, we were like, wow, they really cooked. Is that, can you do that with design? Or is it just they tried something?

• 1:01:32David Imel?

  It depends how quickly you, you have turnaround, like.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  We hated the 3.

• 1:01:37Andrew Manganelli?

  We hated the 3, but not the 3A, so I guess that depends on theirs, like.

• 1:01:40David Imel?

  I mean, the analogy I'm making for the 17E is to, to the 16E is the iPhone 12 mini to the 13 mini, because the primary problem was the battery and that's the primary thing they addressed in the next one.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52David Imel?

  And with this one, the primary problem was the lack of wireless charging and the storage, right? For the price.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Versus the 3A Pro?

• 1:02:01David Imel?

  I was talking about the 168.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Oh, the iPhone?

• 1:02:03David Imel?

  Yeah. But so now with this.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:06David Imel?

  I think this is more analogous to the 3 than the, yeah, the 3 than the 3A. Because it uses the same kind of glyph interface, even though it's bigger and better now, apparently. The 3 still had a chipset that people were not that happy with.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  It was also super expensive.

• 1:02:22David Imel?

  It was also super expensive. Yeah. Like, I don't see a reason anyone would buy the 3 when the 3A Pro exists, which is kind of funny. I feel like maybe they should have just called this the 3 Pro, but I guess they couldn't because the chipset is technically not as good. I just hate, this is the thing, this is my thing. Why does everything rotate around the freaking chipset?

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  It's just because of the super, super, like, the nerds among us will be like, are you seriously making a new flagship with a worse chip?

• 1:02:46Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, but like. We've all said it and we've all done it also.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  So it's like, they can't, they cannot name this a flagship because everyone will say that about them. So they have to leverage this naming scheme of like, okay, it's not the A because the A was the 4A. But it is better than the 4A, but it's not a flagship chip. So we'll call it the 4A Pro. That's how they get away with this specific set of specs and this price. And when they inevitably try a flagship sometime later, all of us nerds will go, well, you better put a flagship chip in it. Otherwise, I'll spend my money on something else with a flagship chip.

• 1:03:16David Imel?

  Can't wait for the CMF Phone 3 Pro Lite that is better than a nothing Pro 4A.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would be tough.

• 1:03:23David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think they did a great design job.

• 1:03:26Andrew Manganelli?

  I love this phone. I didn't know, I didn't even think of no wireless charging, though. That makes me sad.

• 1:03:30David Imel?

  It makes me sad, but I don't know. If you're not gonna, I mean, I want it for sure. I always want it. But if you, if you're not gonna do it, Metal Body is sick.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  True.

• 1:03:41David Imel?

  Because I miss my HTC Thunderbolt, even though it burned my hand.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  What about, there's so many better Metal phones you could.

• 1:03:47David Imel?

  The HTC Thunderbolt?

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  The Thunderbolt was the worst one.

• 1:03:50David Imel?

  What are you talking about?

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  The Thunderbolt was the worst battery life of any phone I've ever.

• 1:03:53David Imel?

  Yes, I agree.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  They were like, let's do 4G and then burn it to the ground. Uh, what about the HTC One or the HTC One M7?

• 1:04:01David Imel?

  Yeah, okay. I guess, yeah, those are more legendary. I know.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Those phones were. Nexus 6P.

• 1:04:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09David Imel?

  We had good. Oh, Nexus 6P.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  That metal phones did exist.

• 1:04:12David Imel?

  Yeah, I guess, yeah. I only made that. It was my first smartphone, so I guess that's why, yeah.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  You didn't know better.

• 1:04:18David Imel?

  Yeah, I didn't. Well, they didn't have anything better at the time.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So they also made headphones. Nothing headphones A.

• 1:04:24David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  So now they have two tiers of headphones again. We can assume based on the name that the headphones A, again, I haven't tested them. I'm seeing the design and a hundred dollar lower price. We assume that this is a slightly lower end set of headphones, but it still has all the nothing design philosophy. There's some colors as well.

• 1:04:40David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Um, they still have some of those clever buttons too, that the original nothing headphones had. I think a lot of people forgot how interesting and nothing headphones were. They had like a.

• 1:04:49David Imel?

  I use them every day.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. So you know, they have the paddle, they have the roller as well, and the software that talks to them. So these headphones still have a lot of that stuff. And they have, uh, seems like a pretty decent, well, eight hours of playback. Oh, in five minutes of charging, sorry. We don't know what the battery life is total.

• 1:05:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Five day, battery lasts for five days.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  That's doesn't mean anything. How many hours of playback? This is the one thing where you can tell us the battery.

• 1:05:13Andrew Manganelli?

  After five days and you cannot use it and can't charge it.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, I guess that's a mixed use stat, but like with headphones, you can just be like, I turn them on, I hit play, when did they die?

• 1:05:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  That would be a useful number.

• 1:05:23David Imel?

  These, in my opinion, look significantly worse than the.

• 1:05:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Really?

• 1:05:26David Imel?

  Headphones.

• 1:05:27Andrew Manganelli?

  I think I kinda like them more.

• 1:05:28David Imel?

  I like these a lot more.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  The regular nothing headphones?

• 1:05:30Andrew Manganelli?

  I think I just like the clear part on the outs. So it's, if you remember the other nothing headphones.

• 1:05:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Andrew Manganelli?

  They're square and circle, square outside, circle bump on the inside. This time.

• 1:05:41David Imel?

  Is two.

• 1:05:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, yeah, but the circle part on the nothing ones, the headphone ones, is where the clearness is. And then on this, the circle part on top of the square is where the color is and the clear part's the square.

• 1:05:54David Imel?

  I just think it looks way worse.

• 1:05:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Opposite. Um, I think it's just trying to do less.

• 1:05:59David Imel?

  Yeah, but it looks way cheaper, in my opinion.

• 1:06:02Andrew Manganelli?

  I mean, I think both of them look pretty cheap. I don't really love either of them. I love my nothing. Your butt.

• 1:06:09David Imel?

  I will say I wear, I use the nothing headphone ones pretty much every day because I've been using them as earmuffs.

• 1:06:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, you just use them because the Stranger Things guys use them?

• 1:06:17David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Speaker 04

  They're fashionable.

• 1:06:19David Imel?

  No, but I get stopped by a lot of people asking me what they are and people are like, oh, it's cool. It looks like a cassette tape inside.

• 1:06:25Andrew Manganelli?

  What color do you use? And then they put their AirPods back in and walk away.

• 1:06:28David Imel?

  The black looks bad because it's glossy.

• 1:06:29Speaker 04

  I disagree. The black is the way to go because they're so minimal.

• 1:06:33David Imel?

  You can see the fingerprints so much more.

• 1:06:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, but no one knows you're wearing a crazy pair of headphones. The white ones are like, woo, I'm here. The same way with all these colorful ones. It's like they're so pick me energy. The black ones are the ones.

• 1:06:44Andrew Manganelli?

  You are all, just the color doesn't change the pick me energy on these headphones.

• 1:06:48Speaker 04

  I disagree. I think it totally does.

• 1:06:50David Imel?

  Bro, I don't know. I think we're all contributing to phone companies only releasing black and white at the moment.

• 1:06:57Speaker 04

  But these are four different colors.

• 1:06:58David Imel?

  Look at, you're telling me.

• 1:06:59Speaker 04

  No, it looks beautiful. I just would never wear them in public because it's like gonna get double takes. Like people are gonna look at you and then look away and then be like, wait, what are those?

• 1:07:07David Imel?

  Because of how bright they are.

• 1:07:08Speaker 04

  The black ones are just headphones. People will look at you and be like, oh, he's wearing headphones.

• 1:07:11David Imel?

  But you really think that the A looks better?

• 1:07:14Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:07:14David Imel?

  It'll look like nothing.

• 1:07:16Andrew Manganelli?

  I kinda dig the yellow one.

• 1:07:18David Imel?

  Ton.

• 1:07:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh my god, their website is infuriating.

• 1:07:21David Imel?

  Oh god, okay, what I didn't even know was that there's four colors. Oh my god, what is that? Holy mo, show Adam.

• 1:07:30Andrew Manganelli?

  He saw.

• 1:07:31David Imel?

  Did you see?

• 1:07:32Andrew Manganelli?

  You haven't seen the different colors?

• 1:07:33David Imel?

  The yellow and pink are just in the.

• 1:07:35Speaker 04

  So that's what I'm saying.

• 1:07:35David Imel?

  Oh, they're just in the center.

• 1:07:36Speaker 04

  The yellow and the pink ones, I think, I like the colors, but I do not like the headphones.

• 1:07:40David Imel?

  They look so bad.

• 1:07:42Speaker 04

  The white and black ones are fine.

• 1:07:43David Imel?

  They're unbelievably ugly.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Also, I just want to say, I just went to the PC Mag website where they have an article about these headphones and they're saying the five day battery life is 135 hours straight of playtime.

• 1:07:56David Imel?

  That's what it says on The Verge too.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  So, just for some context.

• 1:08:00Andrew Manganelli?

  With ANC off. Die in five days?

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Just for context, a normal, does this have ANC is the other question?

• 1:08:07David Imel?

  Yes, it does.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  So a normal ANC set of headphones, flagships are getting 30, 40, the really good ones 50, and in some insane cases 70 to 80. Like I think the Dyson headphones had a crazy big battery and did 80. 135 is unheard of for ANC headphones.

• 1:08:24David Imel?

  That does seem like a lot.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  I need to investigate.

• 1:08:26Speaker 03

  That's only with the AAC codec, though. If you, soon as you switch to LDAC or any other lossless thing that has built in, you're gonna cut that out.

• 1:08:31David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Okay. 90 hours is 62. So they cherry picked 135 hours with the lesser codec and ANC off. That's how they got this number.

• 1:08:37David Imel?

  If you do LDAC and ANC on, it's 62.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right. Okay. That, see how the context makes way more sense. Okay, that, that, okay, got it.

• 1:08:45David Imel?

  Yeah, so if you're willing to have it sound like ass, then you can get a lot better.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  Hot takes.

• 1:08:51David Imel?

  You can't tell.

• 1:08:53Speaker 03

  You, David, I guarantee you, you cannot.

• 1:08:55David Imel?

  I know, okay.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  I've been pumping AAC into your headphones this whole time. You have no clue.

• 1:08:59David Imel?

  Yeah, and you sound like ass.

• 1:09:01Speaker 03

  You're listening to AAC in your headphones right now, David.

• 1:09:05David Imel?

  I almost brought this, and I wish I did.

• 1:09:07Speaker 03

  I'm kidding.

• 1:09:08David Imel?

  Fender released a bunch of new stuff recently. They, I don't know if you remember this. A year and a half ago, you had me take a Fender briefing for you.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  These guys?

• 1:09:17David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:18David Imel?

  And they released...

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  My cousin's just an air guitar.

• 1:09:21David Imel?

  Air guitar.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  I've heard of Fender.

• 1:09:23David Imel?

  They were announcing, like, new headphones and some new speakers, like wireless speakers that are also amps. And they got bought by, like, a Chinese company or something, and they decided to make the brand, like, way better. And they said, a year and a half ago is when I had this briefing. And then yesterday, on my front porch arrives an enormous box. Enormous, like, huge. And I was like, what the hell is this? And one of them was a pair of headphones, wireless headphones from Fender. And inside of the left ear cup, they have a dongle, a USB-C dongle that you plug into any device, and it allows you to do, uh, it allows you to do lossless audio.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  When you say "inside the ear cup," you mean like?

• 1:10:07David Imel?

  Like, you take the, you take the ear plush thing off, and then there's a dongle inside that you can take out, and you can put it in your laptop or in your phone.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:10:18David Imel?

  And it allows you to listen to lossless audio.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:10:22David Imel?

  And there's three modes. There's like, there's like AAC, there's lossless, and then there's, um, OraCast, which allows you to basically transmit... The same signal like audio signal to multiple headphones.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  It's actually kind of interesting.

• 1:10:34David Imel?

  It's interesting. And then they they're also insanely repairable. Like the other side has a you can take this off and replace the battery like they're sort of trying to be like the Fairphone headphones, the Fairbuds XL in a lot of ways.

• 1:10:48David Imel?

  Why did I bring this up? I brought this up related to these headphones for a reason.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Is it because they're lossless and wireless? The battery life?

• 1:10:54Speaker 04

  Because of the audio codec. Like, is why you talked about it?

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  I guess so. Just wanted to flex on us.

• 1:11:00David Imel?

  No, I had a reason.

• 1:11:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Possible embargo information.

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  Because he's wearing the white headphones all the time, so.

• 1:11:06David Imel?

  I had a reason for this. Well, anyway, that it was interesting. I'll bring it in next week. I'll show you.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, that's cool. That's kind of like, yeah, you can do Bluetooth on the MX Master 4S, or you can plug in a dongle and get like

• 1:11:16David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  connection.

• 1:11:18David Imel?

  Right, right, right. So it was interesting.

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  I got something to say.

• 1:11:21David Imel?

  Say it. Say it.

• 1:11:22Speaker 03

  Last time we talked about the Nothing headphones, like when they came out and I wore them on the podcast and I was just sort of like, come on, guys, who cares? You know, I sort of gave him. I have revised that opinion. Because I personally feel that the wireless over ear ANC headphone space, since that conversation, has turned into such garbage. That actually, I find myself recommending the Nothing over your headphones more than most other things.

• 1:11:55Andrew Manganelli?

  They're 500 bucks?

• 1:11:56Speaker 03

  They're 300 bucks.

• 1:11:57David Imel?

  Oh.

• 1:11:58Speaker 03

  And and that's that's the first reason is that most things in this space are like crazy overpriced. The headphones that I use every day, the Focal Batiste.

• 1:12:08David Imel?

  I mean.

• 1:12:08Speaker 03

  Dummy overpriced.

• 1:12:09David Imel?

  Sure, but that's like.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  My Maserati that I drive.

• 1:12:13Speaker 03

  The Bowers and Wilkins, like PX 8, whatever.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Those are like.

• 1:12:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Speaker 03

  Way overpriced. They do not sound significantly better than these.

• 1:12:23David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:23Speaker 03

  I think every single year, the Sony WHX whatever sound progressively worse and worse and like the newest ones, whatever number we're on, I just think are like borderline unlistenable. They sound so bad.

• 1:12:35David Imel?

  Whoa.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Interesting. That's a hot take.

• 1:12:38David Imel?

  That's a hot take.

• 1:12:39Speaker 03

  I they.

• 1:12:39Andrew Manganelli?

  He's been whining about it for years.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  I consistently choose them over AirPods Max despite the worst connectivity because I think they sound better.

• 1:12:45Speaker 03

  If you're looking, you think they sound better than AirPods?

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  Especially for flying.

• 1:12:49Speaker 03

  I think.

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  Well, we gotta talk about that. To me, the the the Sonys are so mid forward and they have so much distortion in the mids that if you're trying to use them for like any sort of clinical listening, they're like, it's it's the equivalent of like rubbing Vaseline on a lens.

• 1:13:09Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, is that your problem?

• 1:13:11David Imel?

  Like a doctor podcast?

• 1:13:13Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no, no, like if you were trying to like, if you were trying to like, listen to something and be like, does this sound right? You know what I mean? For any sort of like, obviously, like, I'm coming at this from a different thing, but like, I don't, I don't enjoy listening to them.

• 1:13:25Speaker 04

  I think you enjoy listening to music differently than people.

• 1:13:29Speaker 03

  Sure, I think the Sonys probably sound excited. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is like, for the money.

• 1:13:34David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Speaker 03

  The

• 1:13:35David Imel?

  Unexpensive, too.

• 1:13:36Speaker 03

  For the for the money and the feature set, I think that nothing's actually like some one of the most competitive offerings. And you know something really funny? Because I obviously get asked way too often, like, what headphones should I buy? And so I've been recommending the Nothings more and more and more, and I have not gotten a single person to buy them.

• 1:13:52David Imel?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:13:53Speaker 03

  Because of the aesthetic.

• 1:13:54David Imel?

  The way they look.

• 1:13:55Speaker 03

  Every single person I've been like, I think this is the best bang for like, also because like Bose quality, like the, obviously, the noise cancelling Bose offers is still like really, really terrific, like sound quality. I can't really say the Quiet Comforts aren't super competitive anymore. So it's like, yeah, like, this is kind of the kind of the jam and no one wants the Nothing aesthetic.

• 1:14:15David Imel?

  The two thing I hate about the Nothing headphones is that the ANC basically does not exist. Like, is it is a feature that I don't hear it almost at all.

• 1:14:24Speaker 03

  The Bowers and Wilkins are the same way, and the Focals are the same way, and those are both twice the price.

• 1:14:28David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:14:29Speaker 03

  So it's like.

• 1:14:30David Imel?

  The I don't love the audio quality on the Nothing headphones either. It kind of, it feels like everything is like a very, it's like, it feels like it's trying to force like a spatial audio thing all the time.

• 1:14:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:14:40David Imel?

  And you can't turn it off.

• 1:14:41Andrew Manganelli?

  If there is a, sometimes they do.

• 1:14:43David Imel?

  Do you have the Nothing X app?

• 1:14:44Andrew Manganelli?

  That's on.

• 1:14:45David Imel?

  And maybe it's in the Nothing X app.

• 1:14:46Speaker 03

  It's probably. I feel like with the Nothings, it's like, you get clear highs that are not piercing. You get clear mids that are not like blurring everything else in this, in the the sound, the sonic field. And then you get good, decent enough lows, and the transient response is good, and music sounds like the way it mostly should on those things. So.

• 1:15:11Andrew Manganelli?

  Show me a graph or I don't believe you.

• 1:15:12Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no. And, and, uh.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Shoot, I wish I brought in these Fender, these, uh, these, uh.

• 1:15:20Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, the other headphones that I, I haven't tried, but I, people I trust say are like, pretty decent are the, the Marshall headphones. The, the Monitor 3s, which are about the same price as these. Anyway, this is all to say that I am excited to try these headphone A's just because the longer I've like, observed the space, the more I've been like, damn, I was really not fair to the original Nothing headphones. They really are a cool offering.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm gonna bring in the Fender next week for you to try, cause they look very normal and they also cost $300 and they have lossless audio and Aura Cast and all this cool stuff. ANC is way better than the Nothing headphones.

• 1:15:57Speaker 03

  The Sonys, the Sonys are, sound so bad that, um.

• 1:16:04Andrew Manganelli?

  How bad do they sound?

• 1:16:06Speaker 03

  That when I, I finally confronted Rich and I was like, you have to stop editing on these. Because you're, you're, because you're missing, you're missing so much. Like, you're missing, you're not hearing so much stuff. And I gave him the Bowers and Wilkins, which are not that much better headphones. Like, they sound pretty bad, in my opinion, too. And he, it was literally like, oh my god, like, I can hear the room, I can hear these qualities in their voices. Like, the Sonys literally are unable to recreate these sounds.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Interesting. Yeah, I would definitely not edit on them. I, I usually think of like, the types of headphones, I think of like, the, the music listening fun headphones. V-shaped graph, all that fun stuff. And then like, the more reference headphones. And I've, I firmly put the Sony ones in the like, music listening fun headphones thing.

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  I guess my, my brain is just different. Cause like, what, like, picture me telling you the video equivalent of this, Mark has. Like, picture me being like, dude, I have this display, the blacks are bright as hell, the whites are not bright. There's no color accuracy, but it's just so much fun to watch mov- you know, you'd be like.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  But that's actually how TVs are.

• 1:17:07Andrew Manganelli?

  Watch movies, yeah.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  That's how, I would never edit on a TV. I would never edit on a TV.

• 1:17:12Speaker 03

  Now, we, we don't like this. We, we all think this looks, everyone thinks this looks bad. There's entire subreddits that are like, here's like, here's how you turn off all the stuff on your TV.

• 1:17:21Speaker 04

  But if you walk into a store and they all have all those settings turned on, you buy the one that has all them turned on, cause it looks better.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, the punchy one.

• 1:17:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, they're like, they have their brighter.

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  That's why they turn it on. That's what people do. That's why it's turned on.

• 1:17:32Speaker 03

  Am I just like, so off base here that I don't know how to listen to music?

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  No, this is classic. No, you're too plugged in. You're a can't see the forest. You care too much. When you've listened to 30 pairs of headphones and you know the nuanced differences between them, it's easy to evaluate in that way.

• 1:17:48Speaker 03

  I know what I like, you know, there's that too. There's some personal.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  But I think there's, I think there's a lot of people shopping for headphones that are just like, alright, I'm gonna fly with these, so I need, uh, step one, good build, step two, good battery, step three, good noise cancellation, and then as long as they sound pretty good and happy.

• 1:18:02Speaker 03

  And that is kind of the Sonys, you're right. But are they selling like 500 or 600?

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  They've gone up, but they're not that high. I think they're under 4 still. I think they're under 4.

• 1:18:10Speaker 04

  I still think getting the older versions is a better deal, but.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  I agree with that. But they'd stopped folding for some reason for the last gen and I hated that.

• 1:18:19Andrew Manganelli?

  460?

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  460? The Mark 6?

• 1:18:22David Imel?

  Yeah, remember they went up, they went up in price this year.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  460?

• 1:18:26David Imel?

  Yeah, they're hella expensive.

• 1:18:28Speaker 03

  For headphones that sound like the music is coming out of a bee's [BLEEP] hole?

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  I remember when they were like 330, then they were 350.

• 1:18:38Speaker 03

  That is not what they sound like.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  They don't sound that bad.

• 1:18:47Speaker 06

  Next to [BLEEP].

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  That's what the Sonys sound like.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  They do not sound that bad. They sound pretty good.

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  Someone, I guarantee someone is listening to this podcast on a pair of Sonys, they're gonna be like, I can't hear the difference. That's just what, wait, that just sounds like what it sounds like all the time.

• 1:19:03David Imel?

  Oh my god, you are so hard on these things.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  I did forget that they were 460. I thought they were more, because again, the AirPods Max are like 550 and they don't lose their price, and then all the others start to creep up in price because they're all competing, and then Apple comes out and seems to enable $500 headphones, now the 350 ones are 400 and 450. So it's all creeping up, which is valid that the nothing headphones are only 300. That's really nice. But, yeah.

• 1:19:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, and the headphones they are 199.

• 1:19:29Speaker 03

  Headphones they are 199, and they.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  We gotta see how they sound.

• 1:19:31Speaker 03

  It's hard for me to tell exactly from the website, but it seems like you can bypass a bunch of the digital stuff with the 3.5mm connection, which is something that a lot of headphones actually you can't do anymore.

• 1:19:42David Imel?

  Let's not have one.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  I just want to say, if you want to yell, at Ellis Rovin on X.

• 1:19:48Speaker 03

  I'm so sorry. I'm like genuinely so sorry if I offended you and you like the Sonys. Like, I do really believe like, the best headphones are the ones that you like. They're the one, that's so true for headphones and earbuds. It's like the best, don't let anyone tell you that the ones that you like are bad.

• 1:20:08Speaker 03

  I personally just feel like you're missing.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  However, comma.

• 1:20:13Andrew Manganelli?

  Literally just went on a rant about them.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  They sound like a bee's.

• 1:20:18Speaker 03

  And it's quotes. But if they sold them for a hundred dollars, I'd be like, that's amazing.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  They have.

• 1:20:23Speaker 03

  You have to go buy these. These are the best one. But it's like.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  I've gone, I will say, I'm on a lot of flights and I tend to like, look around and notice all the headphones people are wearing. And there's first of all, tons and tons of AirPods and I know they're $500 headphones and I'm always amazed at how many AirPods there are. And maybe that's because I'm flying out of Newark, but then two, there's a ton of Bose and Sony. And I know they're not the, the Bose especially, it's like, I know they're not the best sounding, but they sell them in the airport vending machine and they're designed to be for flights.

• 1:20:49Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  And they have tons of ANC and they have the adapter in the box and they sound.

• 1:20:53David Imel?

  Apparently the newest ones actually sound pretty good now.

• 1:20:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, Bose, Bose is a historic, like Bose is an R and D company first.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:20:59Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Like they put a lot of effort into this.

• 1:21:01David Imel?

  But like the old Quiet Comforts had pretty ass audio quality with just really good ANC.

• 1:21:05Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, but were they bee's ass audio quality?

• 1:21:07Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't know if I can cosign that, that statement. Um, you know, there's a.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  I'm a normie, that's what I would say.

• 1:21:12Speaker 03

  There's a funny thing in audio where like, you know, the like, the like Mimi bell curve with like the angry dumb guy on one side and the angry genius guy on the other side. And like.

• 1:21:22David Imel?

  It's with everything.

• 1:21:23Speaker 03

  Well, no, but with, with headphones, it's like the, I don't know anything about audio, blah, blah, use AirPods. And then you have everyone arguing in the middle about what's best. And then like everyone I know who's like a super esteemed, knowledgeable audio engineer, like super techie, really knows their stuff. It's AirPods. It's like, and they wouldn't even consider using anything else.

• 1:21:42David Imel?

  No, it's, it's the same in pretty much everything and note taking apps, same with can't with photos. I'll have people that are like, oh, look at this awesome picture. And it's like the worst picture I've ever seen. Like the HDR is just like, bleh.

• 1:21:55Andrew Manganelli?

  Did you shoot this from a bee's?

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  What is this?

• 1:21:59Speaker 03

  It's that bee's because it sounds like the sound is coming out of a really skinny tube. That's what I was trying to.

• 1:22:05David Imel?

  I'm just saying.

• 1:22:06Andrew Manganelli?

  I can't wait for the new merch.

• 1:22:09David Imel?

  Bee's. The, the area under the curve of people that really like ass is high as.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  It is. Fact.

• 1:22:21Speaker 03

  People are talking about understanding what you just said because it's getting bleeped and tired.

• 1:22:27Speaker 03

  Leave whole. So people don't.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  All of the most, but you're right. Every category, all of the most mid products in the middle are all fighting each other. And then they're just like thoughtless product on each end is probably the one most people should get.

• 1:22:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  And that's fine. Cause you don't want to think about it.

• 1:22:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:22:41Speaker 04

  Ellis is just saying that thoughtless product on each end should be the nothing headphones. No.

• 1:22:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Carl, they will clip that.

• 1:22:50Speaker 03

  I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying Carl, you know, I got on, I got over there right where Andrew's sitting and did not give you a fair shot. And, and I apologize and I, and I have since.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  I still think they sound very good.

• 1:23:04Speaker 03

  But, but it's, it's a great, it, it fits in to the, the product lineup really well at a competitive price with competitive offerings. I don't know about all that. You gotta use the app stuff, but.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Okay. The new nothing headphones, eh? It looks like you have a pair of AirPods that are glued to the side of a square.

• 1:23:24Andrew Manganelli?

  It'd be sick if you could pull a pair of earbuds out of that.

• 1:23:27Speaker 03

  That'd be cool. That's what they look like.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  All this to say, we should get these here. We should listen to them. We should put them on Ellis's head and have him live react to them.

• 1:23:35Speaker 03

  Yes. Should see if we can get 135 hours of listening.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:39Andrew Manganelli?

  I want to try them because I want to see how often people stare at me with them and then just take them off and don't want to be the person being stared at anymore.

• 1:23:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. They're a hundred dollars cheaper. I don't know if we said that.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Somewhere in, in there, we did mention it, but.

• 1:23:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:54Andrew Manganelli?

  Probably got lost.

• 1:23:55Speaker 03

  All right.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  All right. Well, we do have a little bit more to talk about after the break. So before that break, trivia. I feel like nothing's, nothing's design team simultaneously cooked and like.

• 1:24:06Speaker 04

  Got cooked. Okay. Question two, speaking of nothing, the first video ever uploaded to nothing's YouTube channel was uploaded when? Closest without going over.

• 1:24:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Wasn't it just like a praying mantis?

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  It was a hype video.

• 1:24:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  It was definitely a.

• 1:24:21Andrew Manganelli?

  Like a ladybug and a praying mantis.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  It was like eight to 12 months before they launched their first product.

• 1:24:27Speaker 04

  What it was irrelevant, when it was relevant.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Is this closest delta or closest without going over?

• 1:24:34Speaker 04

  Closest without going over.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Fuck.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  We'll brainstorm that a little bit. We'll be right back.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

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• 1:26:57Andrew Manganelli?

  All right, welcome back. Really quick here because we spent a really long time talking about bees there. I got bees, boy. We've talked multiple times about how like AI overviews and whatever are going to really screw up page views and journalists getting paid and reviewers getting paid. And we saw that happen this week with the website Ratings or Artings is how it's spelled out, but they had to kind of make a huge change to their website. They're they're known for doing super in-depth reviews on a lot of things, tech included, one of the largest, but-

• 1:27:31Speaker 03

  Like so in-depth that when you're shopping for a printer, you can compare printers by cost per page or like pages per hour or cost per hour at max flow, you know, like, like they're the ones.

• 1:27:42Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, it's deep and it's like they're doing it with different equipment on a lot of different things to be able to test these. So that obviously costs money, but previously it was free and now they had to make a pretty large change to make the full in-depth reviews of everything behind a paywall.

• 1:28:01Andrew Manganelli?

  It is now $10 a month or $45 a year, but the most interesting thing about this announcement was a section of their release saying why we're making this change. It says, Ratings.com has historically relied heavily on organic search traffic from Google and affiliate links. That model is becoming less reliable. Fewer people click through Google organic results than they used to. At the same time, AI actively scrapes and reuses our test results, often without attribution and without the context needed to interpret them correctly. That's like a huge thing by itself, interpreting things correctly. Yeah. Meanwhile, performing lab-based and in-depth testing is expensive. We buy every product ourselves like normal consumers. No paid or sponsored reviews. Test them using standardized, repeatable methods and publish the full test results

• 1:28:45Andrew Manganelli?

  transparently. A membership-supported model reduces our dependency on Google, limits unrestricted AI scraping for our test results and gives us incentives that are more sustainable and aligned with our customers. So this-

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Sucks, but is necessary, I guess is the easiest way of putting it. It stinks for all the people who want to just go to their website and support them. But also like, I don't know, not many people are going to pay $10 to just go for a month or pay $45 a year for a reviewing website because you don't buy things that often. Lots of times you're just like in the pinch of comparing things and want to go check it.

• 1:29:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  So this is a tough look.

• 1:29:25David Imel?

  This is part of the inevitable death of SEO and the web. I mean, every website for the longest time, Adam and I used to work at Android Authority, and we were privy to a lot of the SEO bullshit that the people would have to talk about all the time. And it, it basically equated to, Google makes all of these changes constantly that you have to adapt to. Oftentimes, when you're adapting to it, making these changes makes your website worse. But if you don't, then Google will de-rank your website because you are optimizing the way that you show up in Google search.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:56David Imel?

  And with the speed of which this stuff is changing, especially with AI overviews and all of this stuff, now you have the additional factor of having to like adapt to what the AI overview shows. If it chooses your website to show in the AI overview, if it chooses to show in Gemini, when Gemini gives, uh, gives sources and stuff like that. And I mean, there's a reason a lot of websites are moving to pay it. The Verge moved to pay it about a year ago. That was a pretty major change. It made their web traffic really sink a lot, but they are making a lot more money on subscriptions. I just think the entire internet is moving more towards direct to creator payments because SEO is just kind of dying very rapidly.

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  So I think, I'm like thinking out loud here, this, I think this is my real beef with AI overviews. I know, I know Ellis, like it's the accuracy and there's a bunch of other things that are wrong about it. But I think it's because the, like, it, it so fundamentally removes the incentives to make good stuff, right? So before, and I, there's, you know, the ratings video kind of illustrates this perfectly, but like, when you make good stuff and you optimize for people to find that good stuff, Google and all the search engines, when people are in the buying process, will funnel you, will funnel those people to find your stuff.

• 1:31:08David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  And so you make this stuff because people find it and you get paid from the ads and the cycle continues. So you're incentivized to make good stuff so that more people find it. Now, you make good stuff, that stuff gets scraped by AI overview. And when people start to go through that buying process, they find the AI overview and they never find your stuff. So the only incentive you have to make good stuff is to be the source for the AI overview to be good. And you don't get any credit for that and you don't get paid for that.

• 1:31:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  So the incentive is effectively gone.

• 1:31:37David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  So, think about that, the effect, the incentive to make good stuff is gone. Now, why would you make any more stuff? It's almost like we've decided, alright, the entire corpus of human knowledge is complete. We need nothing more to be new. We will just be trained on the old stuff. That is, that is my, that's a bummer.

• 1:31:57David Imel?

  This is a concern that we talked about at the very beginning of this. We literally said, what happens when there is no incentive to go to a website? Because the answers are all on Google? And like, why would you make content if people are not going to go to your page and you can't get paid for it? And then the AI has nothing to grab from? Like, that, that is the question that we asked three years ago. And now it's actually hitting websites really hard.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we're seeing like The Verge and ratings and like adding membership programs. Because there are still enthusiasts willing to support the creation of good stuff. And you know, the membership program is maybe the most ideal way to do that. I subscribe to The Verge. I read a lot of these things. But it's often like, like Wirecutter, for example, I brought up earlier or off camera. But like, when I am about to buy a blender and I'm doing my six hours of way too much research to buy the perfect blender. That's when I'm deep in the ratings and the Wirecutter and The Verge and reading blender reviews.

• 1:32:50David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  And then, once that's over, I'm not going to read another blender review for years. That stuff, I'm not going to do that. So it's hard to get people to support and to, you know, spend regularly on something when it seems like there's, the incentive is gone.

• 1:33:03Andrew Manganelli?

  This is specifically hard because I don't think a lot of people are, yeah, reading ratings for fun. Like, we don't, we are part entertainment, right? So like, people see our reviews, but we're also entertainment. So, that's not getting hit as hard. But like, this kind of stuff that is just like, numbers and what prints per minute? Or Marquez's smoothies per hour in his blender, like.

• 1:33:23David Imel?

  Huge.

• 1:33:23Andrew Manganelli?

  This is not the stuff you read for fun. This is the stuff you read for a purpose. And when you don't have that purpose, it's really hard to pay monthly or yearly on it, even though. I don't know. If you were like buying a new house and equipping it for the next year, maybe 45 bucks for the year wouldn't be bad, but that's not a great business model to be like, cool, every time someone buys a house, we'll get one year of a subscription. So this, I feel bad for ratings. This is just absolutely probably tanking.

• 1:33:48David Imel?

  It's very tough for stuff like this. There's, there's an interesting graph and also a chart, as Marquez liked to call out, that shows the decline of peak traffic on tech websites year over year. And it's, it's pretty nasty. Like, all of these numbers are really high.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  It's not that long.

• 1:34:05David Imel?

  And it's only a one-year graph.

• 1:34:06Andrew Manganelli?

  2024, yeah, to now, I guess.

• 1:34:09David Imel?

  A year and a half, a year and a half. So, March 2024, digital trends got 8.5 million peak traffic. January 26, they got 264,000. That's a decline of 97%.

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  That was a rounding error in their previous number. Now, their entire traffic is crazy.

• 1:34:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, this is gonna decimate websites on the internet, because the same way that Facebook video, when it decided to not be a thing anymore, like ruined BuzzFeed, basically.

• 1:34:36David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:36Speaker 04

  This is what Google SEO is doing to all the internets that have built businesses being the source of information.

• 1:34:42David Imel?

  Well, what's crazy is like, I think a lot of these websites, like, well, services like Google, they, they just sort of think social media is free information. And I think in their head, if you take the average of all information about one topic, you get closer to a source of truth, right? Because there's signal to noise. Hopefully, you have more signal than you have noise. And if you take a billion sources, hopefully, you have the right data. And I think all of these services and websites are just kind of like, why do we have to pay websites when, you know, we could, social media is free, like, quote-unquote, journalism or information, and you can just theoretically get closer to a source of truth. But that really just, it destroys the internet as we know it currently. So, it's not good.

• 1:35:27Speaker 04

  We talk doesn't give good information, for the most part.

• 1:35:29David Imel?

  Yeah, I mean-

• 1:35:30Speaker 04

  There's a reason why there are certain trusted sources, because they have processes in place that will take away the noise.

• 1:35:35David Imel?

  I agree with you. But I, I think that they just think that on a, on a numbers basis, if you have 1 billion people talking about a thing, the average is always higher to truth. That, that's exactly what polymarkets, like, you know, all of these guys, they say like, oh, we can predict what's gonna happen, because people are putting their money towards this thing, because they, this many people think it'll happen, and that means it will probably happen. I don't know if that's true or not. There's a zillion problems with that, but either way.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  The average number of arms per human is less than two. That's taking all the data about all humans ever. The average number of arms. Just saying. Sometimes that logic can be flawed.

• 1:36:15Andrew Manganelli?

  It's, I just don't think.

• 1:36:18David Imel?

  That was a fire example.

• 1:36:20Andrew Manganelli?

  They don't all just think hard enough about stuff like this because they just want to get their.

• 1:36:25David Imel?

  I disagree. I think they know.

• 1:36:27Speaker 04

  I think they don't, dude.

• 1:36:29Andrew Manganelli?

  I think at a certain point, though, this is gonna screw themselves when their AI can't scrape things anymore because no one's making, no one can get paid to make the.

• 1:36:36David Imel?

  Everyone is making stuff all the time for free on social media.

• 1:36:40Andrew Manganelli?

  I guess, but now that that level of what we get is worse and then.

• 1:36:45David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:36:45Andrew Manganelli?

  And then it just all turns into nothing when the free stuff is that's being made is, doesn't mean anything.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  Nothing was the last segment. We're on our thing now.

• 1:36:55Andrew Manganelli?

  We've talked, I just remember we talked to somebody who made an AI product. I won't name them, but we brought this up to him and he said, I don't think you guys should have any worries. You make really good stuff. And I was like, I'm not talking about us.

• 1:37:09David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:09Andrew Manganelli?

  I'm talking about like these people, the people who are doing the in-depth web text-based reviews and like that. And it felt like he'd never heard that before.

• 1:37:18David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:19Andrew Manganelli?

  It's gone. It's, this stuff is going to be gone.

• 1:37:21David Imel?

  This, yeah. This feels similar. I went to ClawCon last night.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  Who?

• 1:37:26David Imel?

  You know Claudebot? We talked about Claudebot?

• 1:37:28Speaker 03

  Open Claw.

• 1:37:29David Imel?

  Open Claw, sorry. You remember how Open Claw would talk about?

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Is that the one where everyone dresses up as Santa and like goes to Santa's city?

• 1:37:35Andrew Manganelli?

  I thought that was somehow worse.

• 1:37:38David Imel?

  Somehow worse. Everybody did have lobster hats on.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:37:42David Imel?

  But the people I talked to primarily were like, oh yeah, well, you can just like create your own apps and blah, blah, blah and everything. And I was like, okay, but what happens when all the service, people don't need to use any services anymore because they can just spin up their own services. And they're like, well, that's fine. It's like, okay, but then how do people make money? Like, well, you can sell your apps that you make and like, but no one will buy it because they can all make. People get money so they can pay for housing and food. Those are the primary things I think you're forgetting that people need.

• 1:38:10Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:11David Imel?

  It feels similar to this.

• 1:38:12Andrew Manganelli?

  How often did you run into that, the like meme of like, you should try OpenClaw. It's awesome. Cool. What do you do? It's really cool. I use it every day. Oh yeah, but what are you making? You're gonna get left behind.

• 1:38:23David Imel?

  That's exactly why I went to the conference. And I did find some pretty insane use cases that people were using for. I did have to actually talk to people because the actual event where they talked about everything that was going on, they had a bunch of speakers. All of them were just OpenClaw rappers to try to sell you like an easier way to use it, which is very ironic. Yeah. They also did have a rapper there. They did have a rapper. It was very Silicon Valley. I will tell you. Anyway, there were some use cases. Either way, I'm sort of just equating that to this because it's like, I understand the revenue generation angle, but you're not thinking far enough into the future where it's like, why would people buy, use your service and buy your thing?

• 1:39:08David Imel?

  If you're taking away, if you're giving everyone the ability to have the service and the thing. You know what I mean? I know. Democratization in a way is like good, but also bad sometimes.

• 1:39:20Speaker 03

  We, uh, this is not, I guess it's sort of a unique situation, but I do have sort of like faith that God forbid, like we do lose things like ratings in The Verge and like these places that do give these like really important honest reviews, Tom Guide, Mashable, that the pendulum will swing back in the other direction. I'm mostly thinking about Consumer Reports, which I think is a little bit more safe because they're a nonprofit and they get a lot of money through donations.

• 1:39:52Speaker 03

  And, you know, a big part of the founding of Consumer Reports in the late twenties, early thirties was like this period of time where corporations could just, were literally killing people with their products. And, and there was like not really any like consumer protection ability. And I'm not saying like, we're gonna go all the way back there where like you don't know if you're the product, if this blender you're gonna buy is gonna end your life or not. Um, but I, you know, we, we could get close to back there and, and it'll necessitate like, we'll need some way to know.

• 1:40:26David Imel?

  I think Google would probably say enough people are truthful, but I don't.

• 1:40:29Speaker 03

  They're not, well, no, no.

• 1:40:32David Imel?

  I know, and I'm saying, I'm saying what Google would say.

• 1:40:35Speaker 03

  Especially like if, you know, God forbid, did you guys watch the Hank Green video, the hour long?

• 1:40:40David Imel?

  Yeah, I did.

• 1:40:41Speaker 03

  Like the thing that he said about how like, there's a world where we, we lose access to like all of Google and all of, and all of our information is gained through some sort of like LLM interface. And at that point, there's literally no way to know what's true because you'll have three sources of truth, you know, Anthropic, OpenAI and Google. And whatever they want you to believe, there's, you'll have literally no way to fact check it, you know? So when you're like, is this the best blender, you know, Google will decide what the best blender is and, and tell you that.

• 1:41:14David Imel?

  And OpenAI will serve you an ad.

• 1:41:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, there was like a period of time, remember, where like auto car companies were genuinely telling consumers like, your car will be worse with seatbelts in it. Like, remember, like, that was like, like, we've been there before. There's nothing stopping us from going back there.

• 1:41:29David Imel?

  For sure.

• 1:41:30Speaker 03

  I do have faith that eventually like, this is just a thing that we need in a developed society and somehow, some way, we as a, as a populace will hopefully figure it out.

• 1:41:40David Imel?

  People still do value quality and this has been sort of the ultimate debate that people have been talking about, like with AI slop, will that actually make quality more valuable? And people will gravitate towards the quality. We don't really know yet. We're still too early in the stage. I think that obviously people go towards the lowest friction generally. So there will be a lot of slop that will be consumed. But the big question is, will people also seek out the quality stuff, which will still find a way to exist?

• 1:42:09David Imel?

  Either way, it seems like most of these websites really are going to start moving towards subscription models. I see the value in the verge moving towards a subscription model. I think a lot of people like to read news.

• 1:42:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:18David Imel?

  This is like the moneymaker for them. I don't know how Artings or Ratings has a subscription model and uses that to exist.

• 1:42:26Speaker 03

  Do you know how farm co-ops work? I feel like this is, this is how we should figure this out. We're like, like, let's say, I'm, I'm not a farmer, so please let me know if I get some of this wrong. My understanding is like, if you live in like South Dakota, right? And you live in this place where like, there's a bunch of independent farmers and you all grow corn, you know, you could try to set up business deals. With corn distributors and people who are going to use your corn. Or you could establish a co-op and all the farmers drop their corn off at this mutually owned place. And then the co-op is the one that handles selling all the corn.

• 1:42:57David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:57Speaker 03

  And you just get paid off, you know, you, you, with the, the co-op consortium decides on how much they're going to sell the corn for. And then you divide the things. That'd be a cool way to do these sort of reviews, right? Is like, is like you have like one place you go for all of these sites independent testing, you know? And you pay for that collectively, we all pay for that. And then that money can get distributed.

• 1:43:18David Imel?

  There was a cool service that Twitter owned before it got bought.

• 1:43:23Speaker 03

  Vine?

• 1:43:24David Imel?

  No, well, I don't, I would, I don't know if that was cool or not. It created, it created the Paul Brothers.

• 1:43:33David Imel?

  Regardless of that, they had this service where you could pay like a $5 fee.

• 1:43:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:37David Imel?

  And it would allow you to, if you clicked a link on Twitter for a website that had a paywall, it would let you like read it without the paywall. Or like it would remove all the banner ads or whatever. And it was a super cool idea and I don't know if it was working or not. They had this scalable thing where it was like, the more websites that gone on, the more it would distribute the money. So obviously the more websites, the less money.

• 1:43:59Speaker 03

  Apple news is another great.

• 1:44:01David Imel?

  Yeah, Apple news is a good example of that too.

• 1:44:03Speaker 03

  I don't know if either of those services took advantage of these platforms, but to me, like, instead of being like, like with Mark Hesit, like, dude, I don't, I don't need to pay for Blender honesty 24/7.

• 1:44:14David Imel?

  Right.

• 1:44:14Speaker 03

  But if I, I do need to pay for product honesty 24/7. And so if there was some sort of consortium here.

• 1:44:20David Imel?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's sad that we have to start thinking about these things. Like this is what Sam Altman's always being like, is like, in a world without money, how do we give people UBI or whatever? It's like, I don't like to do, why are you forcing this world on us right now? Um, yeah, it's sad. Anyway, you should subscribe to I you should subscribe to news that you care about and websites that you care about. I think that's kind of the crux of it. If you're willing to subscribe to like Netflix or HBO Max, like, think about your con- like, the the quality of your content consumption and what actually matters to you in your regular life, and it's important to give news.

• 1:44:57Speaker 03

  Dude, we were, we were a few days away from those being the same company.

• 1:45:00David Imel?

  We were.

• 1:45:00Speaker 03

  And yet, something worse happened.

• 1:45:03David Imel?

  Oracle is now.

• 1:45:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, Oracle's son dad.

• 1:45:07David Imel?

  Yeah, sundad.

• 1:45:08Andrew Manganelli?

  I'll throw one more sad thing in here in the sad part of this.

• 1:45:12Speaker 03

  Let's get it.

• 1:45:13Andrew Manganelli?

  But of, uh, if you own, uh, Meta Ray-Bans, you should probably read the article, uh, that just came out about them and the video camera on it. We definitely don't have time to talk about it. In fact, the ratings thing I thought was gonna be the least depressing thing we could have talked about. Definitely was not true.

• 1:45:27David Imel?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:45:28Andrew Manganelli?

  But yeah, uh, if you have these, go read them. Maybe we'll talk about it next week, but just go.

• 1:45:32Speaker 03

  You probably cover the cameras. Yeah.

• 1:45:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:35Andrew Manganelli?

  But, uh, we probably should get to trivia because Adam and Ellis need to edit this very fast to come out by tomorrow.

• 1:45:46Speaker 03

  Trivia, dude.

• 1:45:48David Imel?

  I've got a marker.

• 1:45:49Speaker 03

  When the, when the death bots come for us, I'm gonna do a trivia question, like the band on the Titanic going down with the ship. That's gonna be, that's gonna be my final gift to humanity. Guys, the MacBook Neo is here. None of us knew it was coming until it came. And, uh, you know, so how many other tech products can you guys name with the word Neo in it? You get one point per product. You guys got mad at me because I made the questions too hard and you weren't scoring. So this is literally a waterfall of points available for you guys. You could literally bathe in the points.

• 1:46:25Andrew Manganelli?

  I only have one and it's the toughest thing possible.

• 1:46:28Speaker 03

  It doesn't matter. I'm gonna be really lenient. Hardware, software, if it uses electricity in any way, and it has the letters N E O consecutively in it, I will be fine.

• 1:46:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh my god. How many did you guys get? You guys were running pretty good. You definitely don't have the same thing I have. Flipperman Reed, what do you got?

• 1:46:49David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:46:50Speaker 03

  All right, who wants to go first? Who wants to go first? Go.

• 1:46:54David Imel?

  I wrote Neo Pets.

• 1:46:56Speaker 03

  I'll accept that answer. I wrote.

• 1:46:58David Imel?

  I didn't think about that.

• 1:46:59Speaker 03

  The Nothing Headphone won.

• 1:47:02Speaker 03

  N E. O N E. Dude, you know, at this point, whatever. It's yours, bro. Clever enough to deserve the points.

• 1:47:10David Imel?

  I wrote four things.

• 1:47:11Speaker 03

  Let's see it.

• 1:47:12David Imel?

  I wrote the Surface Neo.

• 1:47:14Speaker 03

  The point's yours. Great.

• 1:47:15David Imel?

  All right, I put A Neo, that like phone company, Aeon Neo, or whatever it is.

• 1:47:20Speaker 03

  A Y A N E O?

• 1:47:22David Imel?

  A N Neo, yeah.

• 1:47:23Speaker 03

  They make portable gaming consoles?

• 1:47:24David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:25Speaker 03

  Okay, I'll give you that point, even though you spelled it wrong.

• 1:47:28David Imel?

  NeoWin, which is the tech website.

• 1:47:31Speaker 03

  Yep, that exists. You got it.

• 1:47:33David Imel?

  And Neon. If you can tell me. The technology. You can tell me what.

• 1:47:38Speaker 03

  No, it's a noble gas.

• 1:47:41David Imel?

  It's a noble gas.

• 1:47:41Speaker 03

  No, I can't give you that.

• 1:47:42David Imel?

  What? Come on!

• 1:47:46David Imel?

  Really?

• 1:47:46Speaker 03

  It's a noble gas! If you could tell me how many electrons are in its outer shell, I'll give you that point.

• 1:47:51David Imel?

  Forty-seven.

• 1:47:51Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:47:53David Imel?

  A N E O.

• 1:47:53Speaker 03

  Guys, do you want to hear some of the ones that you missed?

• 1:47:56David Imel?

  Sure.

• 1:47:57Speaker 03

  You missed the 1X Neo Robot that's coming out soon. You missed the LG Neo Chef, a microwave, the Samsung Neo, which is a QLED TV. I should have just written Samsung Neo.

• 1:48:11Andrew Manganelli?

  LG Neo, Samsung Neo?

• 1:48:13Speaker 03

  The DJI Neo, a pocket-sized drone, the Realme GT Neo, a budget phone, or no, smartphone. The Motorola Edge 5G Neo, that's a budget phone. The old Kyocera Neo, a flip phone, the Nubia Neo, a budget smartphone. The Xperia Neo from 2011. And the Vivo IQ Neo 10R.

• 1:48:38Speaker 03

  The Vivo Neo.

• 1:48:39David Imel?

  Wow.

• 1:48:40Speaker 03

  I like it.

• 1:48:40David Imel?

  All right, damn. So not Neon, though, you're sure?

• 1:48:44Speaker 03

  David, if you can tell me how many electrons are in its outer shell, I will give you that point. Because Ellen said it's a noble gas!

• 1:48:51David Imel?

  It is a noble gas.

• 1:48:52Speaker 03

  Which means.

• 1:48:53David Imel?

  It has less than ten?

• 1:48:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, it does, but I'm not giving you that point anyway. If you can tell me what Neon smells like, I'll give you the point.

• 1:49:00David Imel?

  Sulfur?

• 1:49:01Speaker 03

  No, it's odorless.

• 1:49:05Speaker 04

  That was good. You had two chances. All right. Marquez gets 16 points. Well, he doesn't get. He has 16 points. Andrew with 18 and David now in the lead with 20. That was a free for all.

• 1:49:15David Imel?

  Oh, baby.

• 1:49:16Speaker 04

  All right. Next question. The first video ever uploaded to the Nothing YouTube channel was uploaded on what date? Closest without going over.

• 1:49:28Speaker 04

  Use your maths.

• 1:49:33Speaker 04

  Think, think.

• 1:49:39Speaker 03

  I guess this would be.

• 1:49:41David Imel?

  Oldest without going newer.

• 1:49:42Speaker 04

  Wait, sorry.

• 1:49:43David Imel?

  Right?

• 1:49:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Month, just year?

• 1:49:45Speaker 04

  I'll take anything.

• 1:49:46David Imel?

  Yeah, oldest without going.

• 1:49:47Speaker 04

  Year, all of it.

• 1:49:48David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:49Speaker 04

  Like pick a date.

• 1:49:50David Imel?

  All right.

• 1:49:53Speaker 04

  All right. Flip them and read. What do we got?

• 1:49:58David Imel?

  Oh.

• 1:50:00Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:50:02Andrew Manganelli?

  That's so.

• 1:50:02Speaker 04

  Oh, wait.

• 1:50:03Andrew Manganelli?

  Marquez, what'd you? No, I definitely wrote down incorrectly.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Uh, I wrote June 8th, 2021 at 5:55 a.m. London time.

• 1:50:11Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Andrew?

• 1:50:13Andrew Manganelli?

  You did not write London.

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  What I meant.

• 1:50:15Andrew Manganelli?

  I wrote March 2023.

• 1:50:17Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:50:17David Imel?

  I wrote March 1st, 2021.

• 1:50:20Speaker 04

  Damn, no one got the point.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  We all went.

• 1:50:22Speaker 04

  You're all too new.

• 1:50:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Damn, it's funny. I accidentally wrote 2020 and then put three over it. Would that have been okay?

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 1:50:30Speaker 04

  It was February 18th, 2021.

• 1:50:33David Imel?

  Ah.

• 1:50:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:50:34Andrew Manganelli?

  That was close.

• 1:50:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, that was close. I know. You guys got close, but you went over.

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:38Speaker 04

  Closest without going over.

• 1:50:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Like one day off.

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  I started here February 1st, 2021, and I remember it being soon after I started, but I didn't know it was like within two weeks.

• 1:50:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, good game. GG. All right. Take us out, Marquez, so Ellis and I can start this edit.

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  Dang. Hey, long week. It's Techtember slash March, uh, which means there's probably going to be much stuff next week, too. So get subscribed if you haven't already. Hit that like button down below. Leave us a comment and comment Iceberg lettuce if you made it this far on the episode.

• 1:51:05David Imel?

  Nice.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  Thanks for watching. Catch you later. Also, if you're at South by Southwest, see you there.

• 1:51:11David Imel?

  Next Friday.

• 1:51:12Speaker 04

  Merry Tarchmas.

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  Peace.

• 1:51:14Andrew Manganelli?

  Wave Famers produced by Adam, Alina and Ellis River and a partner with Vox Media Podcast Network. Our soundtrack music was created by Vane Sell.

• 1:51:19Speaker 04

  Bingo.

• 1:51:20Andrew Manganelli?

  Bingo.

• 1:51:22David Imel?

  Should we?

• 1:51:30David Imel?

  It's not a graph, it's a chart.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:51:33David Imel?

  A chart is just a graph in different clothing.

• 1:51:35Speaker 01

  I would like to see a graph.

• 1:51:36David Imel?

  There's a graph near the top.

• 1:51:39Speaker 05

  Support for the show comes from Jira by Atlassian. Your work lives in scattered places, and it's not only your team searching for context, your AI agents need it too. Jira taps Atlassian's teamwork graph to bring that context together. Across Jira, Confluence, Slack, GitHub and more. And makes it easy to share with the agents you already use. Like Claude, Purser and GitHub Copilot. Assign them work directly or connect your agents through MCP. Spend less time hunting for context, less time asking, wait, what did we decide? And more time actually shipping with Jira. Learn more at jira.com. That's J-I-R-A dot com.

• 1:52:26Speaker 06

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