Men Aren't Having Enough Sex - Zack Telander

Zack Telander is a weightlifter, coach & YouTuber. Serious problems are afoot. The number of men reporting no sex in the last year has tripled since 2010, MonkeyPox is running rampant and Amber Heard is able to get into the bottom of a squat on an unstable surface but hasn't tried to take up the sport of olympic weightlifting. Expect to learn why men's and women's beauty standards are diverging in 2022, what a 200kg Greek man can teach us about training for the difficult, whether we can find patient zero for monkeypox, why men can't get laid, my experience not being kidnapped in Guatemala, why Jonny Depp wears cooler sunglasses than you and much more... Sponsors: Join the Modern Wisdom Community to connect with me & other listeners - https://modernwisdom.locals.com/ Get 2 weeks Free Access to the State App at https://bitly.com/statewisdom (discount automatically applied) Get 15% discount on Upgraded Formulas Test Kit at https://upgradedformulas.com/ (use code: MW15) Get 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D and Free Shipping from Athletic Greens at https://athleticgreens.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Extra Stuff: Subscribe to Zack's YouTube Channel -https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC94_fvLx7abZgs9LIkM7jxw Get Zack's Program for $1 - https://www.patreon.com/zacktelander Follow Zack on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/coach_zt Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #jonnydepp #monkeypox #beautystandards - 00:00 Intro 04:31 Training For The Difficult 09:49 David Goggins 20:01 Monkeypox Patient Zero 25:10 Insights into Hollywood from Johnny Depp’s Trial 37:37 From #MeToo to #MenToo 46:19 Why Men Are Having Less Sex 53:13 De-incentivising Long Term Happiness 1:03:22 The Gender War 1:13:00 Where to Find Zack - Join the Modern Wisdom Community on Locals - https://modernwisdom.locals.com/ Listen to all episodes on audio: Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Zack Telander?

  The fact that she took a shit in her own bed, but it was on Johnny's side. Like, I just want to know, like, what position she was in. Like, was she squatting over the bed, like, her feet were on the floor? Or was she on the bed squatting?

• 0:13Chris Williamson?

  You've got to be-

• 0:14Zack Telander?

  Maybe she was holding on to the backboard?

• 0:15Chris Williamson?

  You've got to be on the bed in full squat. That's the only way to do it.

• 0:19Zack Telander?

  Okay, so what? So she's an experienced third-world squatter? Because that's not an easy task. If you've never shit-

• 0:25Chris Williamson?

  She's got good mobility. Maybe she should consider transitioning to the sport of Olympic weightlifting, if she can get herself all the way down to the bottom of a squat.

• 0:32Zack Telander?

  Honestly, her mobility is good enough now to work with her. I will DM her and see if I can start working with her.

• 0:41Chris Williamson?

  How are you feeling after your weekend gig? Playing Champagne Supernova to a massive crowd of 18 adults and five children?

• 0:50Zack Telander?

  You know, I feel like a celebrity. You know, just walking into a party, picking up an instrument, and singing an absolute classic. That's, by the way, like, I said that that night. Like, that has got to be a staple if you're trying to just have a sing-along song. Really, any Oasis song, we've determined. Champagne Supernova-

• 1:10Chris Williamson?

  In the UK, if you were to ask it in the UK, it would be a bit cheesy, because everybody already thinks that. Like, to put "Wonderwall" or "Don't Look Back in Anger" or "Champagne Supernova", it's so obvious. But I said it in America, and everyone was like, "Yes, amazing idea." I'm thinking, hmm, was the first thing that came to mind.

• 1:29Zack Telander?

  "Wonderwall"? "Wonderwall" is, it's like that here. Okay, so that is a corny one to choose. If you've got to pick up a guitar and you start playing "Wonderwall", you're going to get shit for it, 100%, because it's just like, you know, you know the meme where it's like the conversation ends and you go, "Anyway, here's 'Wonderwall.'" You know?

• 1:49Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 1:50Zack Telander?

  Yes. So it is a widely-known thing, just like, "Don't play 'Wonderwall.'" But Champagne Supernova, that's not off limits.

• 1:57Chris Williamson?

  You crushed it, man. It was good. Yeah, I had a great Saturday. I went to LiftATX, this new indoor-outdoor gym. That was fantastic. It's a bit hot. Well, it's very hot. Austin generally, man, I went away to Guatemala, right? So I'm in Guatemala, getting the visa thing. And then I come back, and something's happened. Someone's flicked a switch in Austin, and this place is disgusting now. And it's about, everyone's like, "Oh, just wait until summer arrives." And I don't want to wait until summer arrives. This is already far too much for me.

• 2:25Zack Telander?

  Yeah, it's at a certain point, it's either like you go from AC unit to AC unit. Or AC unit to pool.

• 2:34Chris Williamson?

  You know. To shower, to AC.

• 2:36Zack Telander?

  Yeah, to shower. You don't want to, you're not just like doing outdoor activities and not having like air conditioning near you.

• 2:43Chris Williamson?

  Well, for sure. Like, everyone in England knows, most people in cold places understand that you want to dress appropriately and spend as little time in the cold as possible. Moving from, you know, a heated car to a heated house to a heated office to a gym or whatever. But the reverse just is so bizarre. It's like, oh, you don't want to go outside. It's too hot. It's never been a problem. I've always wanted it to be more hot. But yeah, so I did lift ATX. That was cool. Went to see Everything Everywhere All at Once with Sky because it's, it's to do with Asian stuff. So Sky was in love with it. And for the people that haven't seen it, it's pretty cool. I don't think it's the best film ever made, which tons of people are sort of giving it that accolade, but it's pretty good.

• 3:26Zack Telander?

  The one assessment you said was like, it wasn't

• 3:30Zack Telander?

  like, like deeply sci-fi enough, right?

• 3:34Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, well, I just thought it was going to be more like Tenet or Interstellar or something that was going to blow my face off. And it was funny and quirky and it had charisma and stuff. But that, for me, that detracted away from the serious, whatever philosophical undertone of it. And then I asked a bunch of the guys, everyone had a different idea about what it meant. And no one agreed with anyone else about what the under, like the subtext of the, of the plot was. And then we went to our boy Chase's birthday. You played Wonder Walt. And then I went to a new nightclub. So this weekend was pretty, pretty fun, man. I got a lot in.

• 4:07Zack Telander?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's just going to be the typical weekend for someone who's now a visa holder in the States.

• 4:12Chris Williamson?

  Yes, sir.

• 4:13Zack Telander?

  That's a big deal. You can't just, you can't just glance over that. That's a big deal, man. You're here now.

• 4:19Chris Williamson?

  Can come and go as I want, man.

• 4:20Zack Telander?

  Fly in and out, right? Yeah, there you go.

• 4:21Chris Williamson?

  Literally. Yeah, I mean, that was, getting the O1 is, is such a, um, it was such a journey, like 700 pages to get that portfolio submitted. And you need signatories and you need offers of work and you need a sponsor here in the US and all of these. It's so weird. Like, it literally would have been easier for me to fly to Mexico and walk over the border. I'm pretty sure that that would have been a simple solution.

• 4:46Zack Telander?

  Just being illegal.

• 4:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that would have been an easier solution.

• 4:51Chris Williamson?

  It's done, man.

• 4:52Zack Telander?

  Yeah, probably.

• 4:53Chris Williamson?

  I'm here now. Um, I was watching that Karikos Grizzly video that you did, where he talks about training for the difficult.

• 5:03Zack Telander?

  Yes.

• 5:03Chris Williamson?

  What, what is that?

• 5:06Zack Telander?

  Well, I, I think, first off, Karikos Grizzly is, he is, he's an enigma. He is very, very strong, but he does these unusual movements that are not very functional, I guess would be the definition. He, he, he does like zircher shrugs. So he'll like, literally stand with weights in his elbows, like a barbell in his elbow, with an obscene amount of weight, and he'll just like shrug it up and down two inches. Okay. And then he'll put it down and start screaming. He's also a very, very large individual. Like, part of his training is just like getting on the scale and it says like 195 kilos body weight. And it's like, you know, it's like a, a thing that he's passionate about is how heavy he is.

• 5:51Zack Telander?

  He's, and what, what's interesting is, what happens with a lot of the fitness industry around YouTube, and I can, I can list off examples, but these guys, they're kind of, you know, enigmatic, like I said, but then they kind of get memed. And maybe someone thinks they're stupid or foolish at first, but then they just keep going long enough to where it's, yes, it is this under said joke, right? It's like Karikos Grizzly, like, we all know what's going on. But at the same time, the joke has been going on so long that like, you're an asshole if you don't go along with the joke. And I absolutely love it. Like, I can't get enough of, of this guy. So what he says is two things.

• 6:36Zack Telander?

  He says, you have to live it. And you, and then the other one is training, someone says, why do you train so hard? He goes, for the difficult. Okay. Which is.

• 6:48Zack Telander?

  It's amazing. It's amazing. If you can, if you can think of like a Greek accent, someone going like, "For the difficult," you know, it's not like grammatically correct, but yes, it's for the difficult. And I perceive it as, you know, just giving yourself adversity, adversity, so you can create a better version of yourself. Uh, but what I did was I kind of deconstructed that and, and tried to make a video that I could help people with. And, um, there was this really good example that I used of Jack White, who's like one of, if I look up to anyone in music, it's, it's Jack White. And one of the things he said in this documentary, it's a great documentary, it's called Under These Great Northern Lights, and it's him and Meg White and the White Stripes, and they're going, uh, through

• 7:33Zack Telander?

  Canada, and they just go through like, really random places and play live gigs. But one of the things he says is like, um, convenience is the enemy of creativity. And being, if, if you are given all of these opportunities, it's, it's less likely, or if things are made easier for you, it's less likely that you're going to make something that you're going to see as worthwhile. And one of the things that he says is like, you know, for instance, you know, book four days in the studio and make yourself make an entire LP, which is a full-length album. And a couple, you know, one of the things he says is like, if I go up on stage and I just kind of play what we

• 8:14Zack Telander?

  usually play, and I don't show that effort, people know. Whether they, whether they say that they know it, there's something inherent where they can tell that you're just kind of, just going through the motions. So what I try to do is make things difficult, you know, Allah for the difficult. And so he's like, I play these 15-year-old piece of shit guitars that go out of tune, their strings snap, I play them because it's an added challenge. I put my picks on the amp behind me rather than on the microphone stand. So if I drop a pick, I have to, during the song, find a point where I can sprint back and get a pick. I make the piano, uh, a distance away from me,

• 8:55Zack Telander?

  so when I switch from the guitar to the piano, I have to sprint over there. I have to time it up just right. And if I don't, I'll miss it. And he's like, I add all of these challenges in, so that I can create something beautiful for people to watch. And I liken that to for the difficult. I try to, you know, I try to take something that's meme worthy and see what we can learn from it. I usually do that sort of, sort of thing with my videos. Another example of this is actually, I think it was David Goggins on Rogan. And he, I believe he said, he's like, I'm going to go back to work, Joe. Like my hands are getting too soft. And he, and he said he wanted to do like smoke jumping,

• 9:36Zack Telander?

  which is like forest fire fighter or something like that. I can't remember the exact, and if he actually ended up doing it, he's like, you know, my life has gotten too easy for myself. He's like, I gotta make it hard. And so like, I always think about those things. It's like, am I making life too easy for myself? Are you out there making life too easy for yourself? What can you do to make it so it's more difficult? But still able to move forward.

• 10:04Chris Williamson?

  Goggins hasn't done any media in three years. I found this out last week. He hasn't done any new media like in three years. He's done little bits for his own channel. But he hasn't, you know, someone like him breaks onto the scene and you would expect to see him on Rogan once a year. And he would be doing rounds sort of constantly. And he hasn't done anything for three years, which is pretty wild. So maybe he has been training for the difficult. Maybe he has been doing whatever it is.

• 10:31Zack Telander?

  Knowing that guy, he has to be, he has to be.

• 10:34Chris Williamson?

  Have you read his book? I've only, I'd never read it when it first came out, but I'm, I'm listening to it now, dude, it's so good. And this guy had such a fucked up childhood. It was ruthless. His dad was a pimp that ran a roller skate rink and he used to make the kids sleep in the office because they would be cashing up and oh dude, it was, it was terrible, absolutely awful. And then his mom was about to marry this guy and this guy dies. And he was finally going to have a family and then he doesn't. And then just an endless number of catastrophes that happen. And then there's all of that stuff about him cleaning out cockroaches. It's a super inspiring story. I get that he's not everyone's cup of tea because of the way that he communicates, but

• 11:16Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Chris Williamson?

  He's, he's fantastic, man. I'm really looking forward. I think he's going to be doing more stuff this year. I think he's going to be back on it this year. And if that's the case, it's like, There aren't many other people that do what he does, even Jaco, who's, you know, kind of close to him in terms of his rhetoric. It's not the same, like Jaco does a Jaco thing and Goggins does a Goggins thing. So I'm glad that he's, he's maybe coming back.

• 11:42Zack Telander?

  What are your, hold on, what are your thoughts on poking your head out every once in a while? When you're, when you're at that level, maybe David Goggins isn't quite at that level, but what are your thoughts on the less is more approach to maybe social media to whatever that may be?

• 11:57Chris Williamson?

  Well, Robert Greene talks about the fact that a little bit of aloofness creates a sense of mystique and sort of attraction around who you are, because if people always know that they can get a hold of you as much as they want, I don't know, it doesn't seem as special anymore.

• 12:15Chris Williamson?

  It seems to me that it's probably just like any other normal distribution, right? That if you're going to post very, very consistently online and put out tons and tons of content, you have to be an outlier in terms of the quality. So James Smith's a good example of this, right? He has, I wouldn't like to guess the last time that he went 24 hours without his story being up, and it's always tons and tons of stories and they're always face to camera and they're always, there's always something happening, right? But he's an outlier because he's interesting, like he's a, he's a funny guy that has great delivery online, so he can get away with that. Now, I think it would probably be a bit of a waste if you had James's skill and decided to only do it every three years, do a little batch of, of runs.

• 12:55Chris Williamson?

  There's definitely something exciting about only getting like a, a limited run of access to someone's ideas. And something tells me that maybe with Goggins, he's, he's probably the sort of guy that's going to have enough stories and enough amazing insights to maybe do that, to do like a condensed run every three years and then go away and then prove himself for the difficult and to then come back and be like, look, here's what I learned, having done the difficult, here are some more things for you to learn about. But if it was just consistent, I don't know whether that would work quite so well. You know, I mean, there was that period when Jordan Peterson came back after he'd had, you know, basically two years off from his recovery and all of that stuff.

• 13:38Chris Williamson?

  People were excited because they hadn't seen him for ages. And yeah, absence can sort of make the heart grow fonder, maybe like that. What do you think?

• 13:49Zack Telander?

  Well, I like to think about Tool, one of my favorite bands. Maynard Keenan being the lead singer, like even when, even when they perform, he's in the back. So it's like the only lead singer I've ever seen that goes to the back of the stage.

• 14:05Chris Williamson?

  Behind the drummer?

• 14:06Zack Telander?

  No, it's like kind of to the left or right of the drummer.

• 14:10Chris Williamson?

  But in line with him?

• 14:11Zack Telander?

  Yeah. And sometimes actually behind the drummer. So like Danny Carey, I believe, I can't quite remember because I saw them live. It's probably one of my top three favorite shows I've ever been to. And Danny Carey's more center stage and he has two boxes that he goes to that are to the left and to the right of Danny Carey. And maybe even slightly behind him. So you can already get that mystique from him. You know, and he was also saying like, as far as sound goes, it's easier for me to sing. And it makes more sense. Just because I'm a singer, it doesn't mean that I should have my back to my band. But, you know, he's a type of guy, like that band to me is so massive.

• 14:54Zack Telander?

  But yet they have like almost zero pop culture. What's the word?

• 15:00Chris Williamson?

  Exposure.

• 15:01Zack Telander?

  Yeah, they're relevance, right? They're just not relevant in pop culture and yet they can sell out arena after arena after arena. After taking a massive break from album to album. And he goes and he takes this money from this tour and he fucks off to Arizona to his winery. And he just, all he focuses on is, is making good wine. And now he's gotten into like this industry of trying to sell his wines to other restaurants in Arizona. He's trying to build like this hub. That's what he's passionate about. And I think, I just find it so interesting when your art is that good. That no matter what you do, if you start a tour, people will go crazy for you.

• 15:45Zack Telander?

  And I almost revere that because I'm in the position of the opposite and I believe you're probably the same, right? Where it's like, if we don't, if we don't show poke our heads and yeah, if we don't feed the beast, we are disappearing. And so it's almost like, yeah, the grass is always greener, but I do respect it. I think it's very, very interesting to talk about.

• 16:07Chris Williamson?

  I also think, especially with Maynard Kenan and Tool, and who's his other one? Perfect Circle, right? That's his other one.

• 16:13Zack Telander?

  Yeah, and Pussifer and but yeah, Perfect Circle, yeah.

• 16:17Chris Williamson?

  Those guys are people that have done the work and got themselves to the very top. Something tells me that when he was first starting out, that he wouldn't have been able to be quite so aloof. They were probably playing more shows, releasing more records, being more available for doing press and for doing stuff like that. This is a conversation I had yesterday in the, at the pool party of the W Hotel, like not the place that I thought I was going to have a great philosophical conversation, but I ended up having a great one with Joshua. And we were talking about the fact that a lot of the time, people look to those that are successful and have made it, ask them what their advice is or what the ways that they operate are now, and then try and map that to someone who's not at the

• 16:58Chris Williamson?

  same stage of the journey. So it's like, look, Maynard Kenan probably nailed shows. He had to learn how to tour, to perform live, to deal with onstage nerves, everything, right? The logistics, the sound, the quality, all of the things that you need to do. You only really get that from iterating on your craft, from doing things over and over and over again. But if you were to ask him now, or if you were to try and model his behavior now, you'd go, oh, there's this sort of aloof thing that's going on. It's like, bro, no one knows who you are. But Maynard Kenan can do that because he's Maynard fucking Kenan. Right? You don't get to do that as starting out band member that nobody has a clue what you do.

• 17:37Zack Telander?

  I've seen the same thing if you want to learn how to do something like so for instance in the sport that I'm involved in Olympic style weightlifting, people look at the elite and they base their training off of what they perceive the elite are doing now, right? They may not even have an understanding of exactly what the elite was doing. They might have a few clips of what they're doing and say, "Oh, they do this. I want to do that as well." Two of my most successful videos in YouTube history for me, both over 3 million views, are exactly about this thing, is modeling your movements, your behaviors off of the

• 18:16Zack Telander?

  top is actually one of the worst practices you can do, rather than trying to model your behaviors over someone that might be slightly more successful than you, because that's much more attainable and that's much more realistic of a direction for you to go. And then you just keep on taking those small leaps and you make realizations about your process and how you would get better over time, rather than looking at Dmitry Klockov or Liu Xiaojun, both of like the most famous weightlifters on YouTube and on Instagram, and saying, "Oh, they do this. I want to do that." Well, it's like you didn't see what they did for decades before.

• 18:55Chris Williamson?

  Do what they did when they were at your stage, not when they're at that stage.

• 18:59Zack Telander?

  Exactly.

• 19:00Chris Williamson?

  I mean, there's that same, I can't remember the example. I think it was Warren Buffett, where he talks about how, I think 60% of Berkshire Hathaway's wealth has come from 10 trades in his life. 10 trades, bro, to make more than half of the gains from Berkshire Hathaway. I mean, one of them is Coca-Cola and there was this wild story where he worked out the proportion of real estate inside of people's stomachs that Coca-Cola needed to take up in order to be able to get itself to the place that they wanted it to be. So he, you know, he really, really, really researches this thing and he takes forever to make a decision and blah, blah, blah, blah. And you go, "Well, yeah, that's, that's really,

• 19:43Chris Williamson?

  really great." But I also seem to remember that he did a ton of businesses when he was in his teenage years. He was selling newspapers and cleaning cars and doing loads of stuff. And you go, "Okay, like that's what he did when he started out. What are you doing when you're starting out?" And I really think there's something that... About mapping the journey, not mapping the successful strategies of people once they've reached that end destination or that that sort of pinnacle thing. Speaking of which, monkeypox. Worried about monkeypox?

• 20:20Zack Telander?

  I haven't, I've only seen just like memes.

• 20:23Chris Williamson?

  Monkeypox monkeypox is real. So monkeypox outbreak is primarily spreading through sex, world health officials say. European nations have confirmed dozens of cases in what's been the largest outbreak of monkeypox ever on the continent, according to the German military. I don't know why they're involved in this. The US has confirmed at least two cases and Canada has confirmed at least five. So has the Belgium. Belgium has introduced a mandatory 21 day quarantine for monkeypox. If you get monkeypox and COVID, you're fucked. The most recent surging cases appears to have been spread among men who have had sex with other men. So the first place that this came out of was a sauna in Madrid. So it's obviously,

• 21:05Chris Williamson?

  I don't know, a bunch of guys, maybe having a bit of fun in the sauna. And then one of them is, I mean, I want to know, this is always the question, like, who was the person that ate the pangolin or whatever, or the one that escaped from the lab or some shit?

• 21:19Zack Telander?

  What is it? Zero?

• 21:20Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, patient zero.

• 21:21Zack Telander?

  Patient zero.

• 21:22Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I want to know who, I want to know how monkeypox come, because it's not interesting.

• 21:26Zack Telander?

  Are you sure? Are you sure you want to know?

• 21:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I kind of, I kind of do. I don't want to see it graphically, definitely not. But I do, I'm pretty, pretty intrigued. But yeah, so vaccines are available. But it's just fascinating that you're talking about how many cases there are in Europe. And then there's this, it's sexually transmitted, a new sexually transmitted infection. While the virus itself is not a sexually transmitted infection, which generally spread through semen and vaginal fluids, the most recent surging cases appears to have been spread amongst men who have had sex with other men, emphasizing that anyone can contract monkeypox. Many diseases can be spread through sexual contact. You can get a cough or a cold through sexual contact, but it doesn't mean it's a sexually transmitted disease. Okay, so that's

• 22:11Chris Williamson?

  interesting. So it's not actually an STI, but it's just, it's just one of the ways that you can, that you can contract it. But yet now this is the new, this is the new current thing that everybody needs to be concerned about.

• 22:24Zack Telander?

  Okay, well, clarify that for me, because maybe I'm just an idiot and didn't understand that. Can you get it if you are not sexually active with other men or sexually active at all? Can you get monkeypox?

• 22:37Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 22:41Zack Telander?

  Okay. All right. So it's a chickenpox, it's a, it's a, it's now a virus. Is there a potential for a cure? Or are we looking at a

• 22:53Chris Williamson?

  They've already got a vaccine. They've already got a vaccine. There's a vaccine that already exists for it. Um, monkeypox is a disease caused by a virus in the same family as smallpox, but not as severe. Monkeypox can kill as many as one in 10. The vaccine used to prevent smallpox appears to have an 85% effectiveness rate regarding against monkeypox in observational data and research in Africa, world health officials say. The vaccines aren't widely available, so it's important to reserve them for populations that are most at risk. What does that mean? What does most at risk mean? Like, the people that are just like the biggest players? Like, the ones that are able to slay? Like, hey, hey, who's the chad in this city? Come over here, we gotta inoculate you.

• 23:34Zack Telander?

  Like, yeah, I gotta head to CVS, man, get myself a vaccine real quick, because I've been getting a lot of action.

• 23:41Chris Williamson?

  Your boy fucks, that's why.

• 23:43Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 23:43Chris Williamson?

  Cause your boy fucks. Uh, I don't think that it's going to be an uncontrolled spread in the same way that we've tolerated the COVID-19 epidemic, uh, but there is a possibility that this has gotten into the community. If, in fact, it's more pervasive than we're measuring right now, that becomes hard to snuff out. And they were concerned that this summer, because of all of the different festivals and stuff that were going on, uh, that people were just gonna be spraying their monkeypox everywhere.

• 24:09Zack Telander?

  Yeah, they're just gonna be gooing everywhere, spreading that, spreading that pox.

• 24:17Zack Telander?

  Did you get chicken pox?

• 24:19Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, I've had it. Did you?

• 24:20Zack Telander?

  So, yeah, so I had it. So there's something about the dormant, uh, what's, I don't know what the, um, the virus is actually called, uh, but it's like, it stays dormant in you and then it can, like it can wake up, I guess.

• 24:34Chris Williamson?

  Is that not what shingles is? Is that not what happens? Yeah, but I thought that, I thought that shingles was adult chicken pox. So if you hadn't had it as a kid and you don't have immunity.

• 24:42Zack Telander?

  Ooh.

• 24:43Chris Williamson?

  I'm pretty sure that that's what it is. Cause it's kind of dangerous to not have had chicken pox as a kid.

• 24:50Zack Telander?

  Yes. No, I think, I think either one. So it, it's, it's pretty much dormant for the rest of your life. Certain circumstances can make it, you know, wake up and then you get shingles. But I don't know, dude, monkey pox just, I mean, sorry, it sounds funny.

• 25:07Chris Williamson?

  Well, it's so, it's so weird. Cause like chicken pox, we've just accepted that as, oh, that's just the name of it. Monkey pox? Oh, what a ridiculous name. How dare you put an animal in front of the word pox? Yeah, exactly. It's a, it's a new one. Uh, Johnny Depp trial, man. Have you been watching any of this?

• 25:25Zack Telander?

  Uh, mainly again, dude, this is, this is so pathetic because I feel like all of my answers, oh, have you heard about this? It's like, oh, either I heard of it through a meme or I saw a 25 second clip to maybe a three minute clip on Instagram or TikTok. Maybe I am just one of the, the herd.

• 25:42Chris Williamson?

  You do know that that's how.

• 25:43Zack Telander?

  Pun intended.

• 25:44Chris Williamson?

  That is how most people get their news. Now, in fact, that probably makes you better informed than most people.

• 25:52Zack Telander?

  Okay. Well, you know, I like to consider myself, you know, above, a cut above.

• 25:57Chris Williamson?

  A connoisseur, yeah.

• 25:58Zack Telander?

  So, so, oh, yeah. What I've seen is actually I've somewhat loosely followed the herd, uh, Depp controversy for a while. Um, I know, I heard like some horror stories earlier on and then as far as the trial goes, I've again, just seen clips like the clip of Amber Heard supposedly snorting cocaine during, which is, you know, maybe she's doing that, maybe not. The fact that she, uh, took a shit in her own bed, but it was on Johnny's side.

• 26:28Chris Williamson?

  That'll teach him.

• 26:30Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Chris Williamson?

  That'll teach you.

• 26:32Zack Telander?

  Krista Lee had a, had a, had a great bit on that. Krista Lee is like, hey, don't shit in your bed, your own bed.

• 26:44Zack Telander?

  The funny thing, like, I just want to know, like, what position she was in. Like, was she squatting over the bed, like, her feet were on the floor? Or was she on the bed squatting?

• 26:54Chris Williamson?

  You've got to be-

• 26:55Zack Telander?

  Maybe she was holding on to the backboard?

• 26:56Chris Williamson?

  You've got to be on the bed in full squat. That's the only way to do it.

• 27:00Zack Telander?

  Okay, so what? So she's an experienced third-world squatter? Because that's not an easy task. If you've never shit-

• 27:07Chris Williamson?

  She's got good mobility. Maybe she should consider transitioning to the sport of Olympic weightlifting if she can get herself all the way down to the bottom of a squat.

• 27:14Zack Telander?

  Yeah. Honestly, her mobility is good enough now to work with her. I will DM her and see if I can start working with her.

• 27:22Chris Williamson?

  Amber, look, I know that you've got- I know that you've got some bigger fish to fry at the moment, but once you've completed this court case, have you ever considered entering into the sport of Olympic weightlifting? Ms. Heard, this could be your journey back into it, because, I'm not sure if you're aware, there is 4.5 million signatures on change.org to get Amber Heard replaced in Aquaman 2.

• 27:50Zack Telander?

  Really?

• 27:51Chris Williamson?

  Dude, nearly five-

• 27:52Zack Telander?

  4.5?

• 27:53Chris Williamson?

  Nearly 5 million people. I think if it breaks, it's already one of the top petitioned-

• 28:00Zack Telander?

  Petitioned?

• 28:01Chris Williamson?

  Changes ever, right? And I don't know what the title is. In fact, like, I'm gonna work this out. What is the most petitioned change.org?

• 28:13Zack Telander?

  But to, you know, Ms. Heard, look, I just realized that in order to have shit on your own bed-

• 28:18Chris Williamson?

  Oh, fuck, it was just, sorry, sorry. It was justice for George Floyd, perhaps unsurprisingly. 19, but that was 19 million people. Dude, 1/4 of the number of people that wanted justice for George Floyd want Amber Heard to be removed from Aquaman 2.

• 28:35Chris Williamson?

  Oh my god. Come on, world.

• 28:40Zack Telander?

  Yeah, uh, Miss Heard, I realize that in order to shit in your own bed, uh, you would have to have the mobility to, you know, stand on a relatively unstable platform, mind you, uh, and, and squat in what we would consider a deep squat position, something that's very optimal for the sport of Olympic weightlifting, uh, in order to defecate on your own bed. So, given that information, you have the prerequisite to be a very fine athlete. Um, how would you mind coaching from me? Uh, we'll take you to the top of the sport.

• 29:14Chris Williamson?

  Miss Heard, if you are listening, if you are listening, you got it. But dude, I, I, here's another thing as well. This has happened before that people want, because it takes so long to film a movie and then to edit a movie and then to publicize a movie. It's like, do you realize how much work it would be to replace Amber Heard, shot for shot, in a movie that's already been filmed? What do you want to do?

• 29:38Zack Telander?

  They did that with Cristalia.

• 29:41Chris Williamson?

  Well, yeah, but he wasn't one of the central characters, or was he?

• 29:44Zack Telander?

  True. Yeah, that's true. I, I guess I didn't care enough about Aquaman. Like, again, bringing up Cristalia, this is a Cristalia one. This is a great bit. You go, someone's like, hey, man, I watched Aquaman. And, and my response is, what plane did you take? Cause you only watch Aquaman on the plane. And that's actually how I feel about it. It's like, I don't really care about it that much. I had no idea that Amber Heard was in it.

• 30:10Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 30:11Zack Telander?

  Because, because to me, it's, it's, you know,

• 30:14Chris Williamson?

  Me neither. There's a bit in the, um, there's a bit in the trial where Johnny Depp suggests that the only reason that Amber Heard got the role was because of him. So the, the prosecution, the other attorney is saying to him, you didn't want Amber Heard to do any movies, did you? You didn't want her to go out and have meetings, did you? And Johnny's like, no, didn't say that at all. I mean, how do you think she got the role for Aquaman? Of course I'm supporting her. And you're like, Fuck. So he's suggesting basically that the only way she got it was through that. And, uh, yeah, dude, I, it's, this whole thing is wild. Think about the fact that they're both constantly recording each other. Think about that. Like, there's all, always recordings of each of them talking about stuff.

• 30:57Chris Williamson?

  Can we please bring up evidence number 32217? You're like, okay, where's this come from? Oh, it's one of them recording the other one, like some secret agent shit.

• 31:09Zack Telander?

  Oh, wait, audio, like audio recording?

• 31:11Chris Williamson?

  Yes, throughout the whole trial.

• 31:14Zack Telander?

  So they knew, knew this was coming?

• 31:17Chris Williamson?

  I don't know why they were recording each other. That's my question. Like, what is it?

• 31:21Zack Telander?

  That's, you know, no, look, look, this is it. It's a, it's, you know, when you get into some sort of a toxic relationship, it's more important to show burden of proof of the other person's wrongdoings later on. You know, if you get into-

• 31:34Chris Williamson?

  Really? I mean, if Johnny Depp was supposed to be off his face all the time, I don't know whether he's got that. I, I don't know what they were doing it for. Maybe it was in case there's a court case. But there's recordings from 2015 and shit.

• 31:45Zack Telander?

  Yeah, I mean, when, I don't, dude, people change when they get into really, really bad relationships. They do. They do things that they can't even, I mean, I've been in bad relationships and I've done things where I'm like, that is not who I am. Like, you know, raised my voice, like, something like recording someone else to, to then garner some sort of, uh, advantage-

• 32:07Chris Williamson?

  Leverage.

• 32:08Zack Telander?

  On them later on? That's absolutely possible, especially from someone who's not the manipulated one. It's like, oh, well, this is the standard that we've set for this relationship.

• 32:19Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 32:19Zack Telander?

  You know, it's like, I can go sneak and look on your phone because that's just what we do now. I can yell as loud as I can at you because we've done it once, we've done it a couple of times, we can all do these things. I, I really think like, that's the mark of- The worst possible relationship is saving issues so that later on you can use them as ammo.

• 32:39Chris Williamson?

  Agreed. Yeah, I mean, you're also seeing now what happens behind the doors of people that Johnny Depp seems to have come out of this. He's super charming. He seems like a really sweet guy. Amber Heard seems super manipulative. But you can't say that it's a healthy relationship from either side. This isn't, this isn't a very nice relationship or a good relationship to be in. But you're right. What happens when someone does something, when there's a first mover and you begin to think, oh, well, this is the tone of the relationship that's been set now. Okay, so she did this, I'm gonna do that. And then I'm gonna keep this one in my back pocket in case she brings up a different thing and then we can start. That tit for tat game, I did a video about Sam Harris ages ago about

• 33:21Chris Williamson?

  how I thought that this was a, this was a big deal, that you have this sort of ever increasing intensity spiral of tit for tat and worse for worse for worse for worse. And that's how relationships end up, like tons of relationships I've been in, end up like that. But it's just what happens when you see people who are super, super highly strung. Johnny, it sounds like was on a, a good bit of drugs and all sorts of different other addictions and shit that he had too. And he was falling asleep by the side of the bed and doing all sorts of things. You go, well, when you layer all of this together with some ego and a $300 million net worth, what do you expect?

• 34:02Zack Telander?

  Shit's gonna hit the fan.

• 34:03Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, or the bed. Yes, nailed it. Also, Kate Moss is giving evidence this week. And Amber Heard apparently was dating Elon Musk at one point. And then there was another time that James Franco came around to the house. It's just a litany of, I don't know, weird famous people that are getting drawn in. So what do we, what do we think? Why don't we get Pamela Anderson in? Pamela, what do you think about this? We'll get you in as an expert witness for this particular case. People that I didn't think would have anything to do with it, but apparently they do.

• 34:36Zack Telander?

  Yeah, well, you know, like, it's just that I love the take that I see. It's on so many comments. It's like Hollywood is not real. These people are egotistical narcissists and no one really cares what they do. It's almost like we watch to see the demise of it, you know, but there's always someone who's like, why do we give a shit about the Hollywood elites? They're not real. They're the scariest people on earth because they're, they like, they're just represented, they're just all, everything they do is caricature of something.

• 35:11Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, well, I think I would, I would go, I would probably say that what I've seen at least of Johnny Depp, either Johnny is one of the finest actors that's ever graced the planet, or that's really the way that he is. He seemed very consistent throughout the trial, like he's super calm, super chill. But with Amber Heard, you do see that real discordance between maybe the person she thinks she's supposed to be, the person that she's playing. All of that was really uncomfortable. And I don't know, there's this whole group of people at the moment.

• 35:42Chris Williamson?

  Who's Machine Gun Kelly scene at the moment? Who's that chick? Thingy Fox? Megan Fox?

• 35:47Zack Telander?

  Jennifer Fox.

• 35:48Chris Williamson?

  Megan Fox.

• 35:50Zack Telander?

  Megan Fox.

• 35:50Chris Williamson?

  Megan Fox, Jennifer Fox. So like, they, they were in the news the other week because they were doing blood rituals, like swapping blood.

• 35:58Zack Telander?

  Yes, yes.

• 35:58Chris Williamson?

  Um, yeah, I'm pretty sure that Johnny Depp said that they'd done something similar early on in the relationship. And then, dude, it wouldn't surprise me. I'm, if I could put money down right now, Jared Leto is going to have something come out about him within the next five to 10 years.

• 36:17Zack Telander?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, it already has become that for sure. There, um, the way I was made aware of it was, uh, Philly on.

• 36:26Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I saw the same video.

• 36:28Zack Telander?

  Yeah. So that, that's where I was made aware of it. He is wildly creepy when they, uh, compile all of these interviews and these weird things he said. And

• 36:41Zack Telander?

  yeah, I would not be surprised either. That's a great call. That's, I, I would give you, you know,

• 36:47Chris Williamson?

  Shitty odds. Yeah, I, uh, I don't know, man. There is something about this that just makes me think. But then you also think about the fact that the, uh, who is Epstein's enabler? Who was the chick that he did that with? Uh, Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell case, not publicized at all, no, uh, daily trial, no video, none of that. Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. It literally is just like someone waving the big red flag like, "Look at this, look at this. Don't look over here, don't look over here. Not allowed to look over here."

• 37:21Zack Telander?

  That stuff pisses me off so much, man. It really, really does. Like, just the silencing of things that can damage and hurt people that aren't in Hollywood but are in majorly powerful positions, not just in the US but, you know, worldwide, being the economy that we are, the powerhouse economy. It's, that, that stuff is ridiculous. When you start going down that rabbit hole, it's just only frustration from, from there on out.

• 37:49Chris Williamson?

  Do you know what's really frustrating as well is how quickly the internet seems to pivot from, uh, hashtag Me Too to hashtag Men Too. That, that now, I understand that Men Too is a response to the Me Too being over, like, potentially overblown in some people's eyes, and that the Amber Heard-Johnny Depp trial is, look, men can be the victims of DV as well, they can be the people that are being socially manipulated, psychologically manipulated, they can be hurt. He nearly had his finger chopped off when she threw a vodka bottle at him. But it doesn't add in, what people haven't realized is, look, that particular style of thinking, "Believe all women," was maybe a little bit too low resolution, right?

• 38:30Chris Williamson?

  As has been shown in this case in front of us. Doing the opposite doesn't suggest that it's any better. Like, that's just as low resolution thinking.

• 38:41Zack Telander?

  But see, that, is this not just how everything in the world works? You can't just go, "Absolutely, this is the team. Absolutely, this is the team," and just let the pendulum swing back and forth. I love to call it like-

• 38:54Chris Williamson?

  Those are the only two options.

• 38:55Zack Telander?

  Yeah, like, like, uh, foam finger holding. That's what I call it. You know, the people that go to the game and they just go, "Woo, that's my team. The liberals, the Democrats, or, you know, the Republicans, conservatives, like, that's my team. I root for them no matter what."

• 39:09Zack Telander?

  Yeah, and then the pendulum swinging is just nauseating. You know, um, I saw this movie, Men, yesterday.

• 39:16Chris Williamson?

  Was it any good?

• 39:20Zack Telander?

  I, I don't know. It was by, it was by Alex Garland who made Ex Machina and Annihilation, two of like, movies that I really like. It was pretty good. It was, you know, thrilling, but the story behind it, or what it was mentioning was, you know, the faults of men that aren't being taken by men, you know, so it's, it's more along the lines of the Me Too movement. It's like, there are characters in it that treat the main character like every, you know, patriarchal trope. Like, the nice guy, you know, the nice guy trope?

• 40:01Zack Telander?

  There's like the gaslighter, there's like the sexual worshipper, and it's very obvious in that way. And the funniest thing is, I'm watching this, and from my perspective, I could see seven different characters of females, because I've been in situations where the opposite has happened to me. Right? So, it does not, it's not, "Oh, believe all men, believe all women." It's like, believe some men, believe some women, but you know, like, or don't believe any of them until they prove themselves. Or, how about this? Things are not storyline. Things will always remain gray. The best stories, or actually, the best movies are the ones that are like, "This must be the good character," right? "This must be the good guy. This must be the bad guy." And then all of a sudden, you're

• 40:45Zack Telander?

  like, "Wait, the bad guy? I kind of understand why he did that. Oh, the good guy, like, why is he doing that shitty thing?" You know, it's like, those are the best, the ones where you question the characters, and in doing so, you question yourself. And I've always found that sort of thing fascinating, but it's infuriating. Like you said, to just see the pendulum go from one side to the other. I see it on every social media platform.

• 41:09Chris Williamson?

  But it's easier, right? It's easier to have low resolution thinking. All that you need to do is go, well, here is a one size fits all answer. You see this in the red pill community as well. They've got their answers for what it is that women are after. You go, well, I don't know, man, like that doesn't fit with my experience of women in the real world. And maybe I just happen to have managed to live 34 years and have a really unrepresentative experience. Or maybe there's something about me that's selecting for a different type of people that I speak with. But I've met a million people stood on the front door of nightclubs. That's a pretty big sample size. Met a lot of women, right? Working in nightlife. And they would be the ones that would be thrown under the buses. Oh, well, they're the most club bratty, hoey,

• 41:52Chris Williamson?

  low moral girls that you're going to find. I'm like, well, didn't seem that way to me. So what do you think? But no, no, no, no. It's significantly easier to just have a one size fits all answer because you never ever have to question your assumptions again.

• 42:07Zack Telander?

  Yeah, and the the boys versus girls, girls versus boys on TikTok, Instagram, you know, anything is just incessant. It is nonstop. It is, you know, it's always a one size fits all thing. And what's problematic is if you do it, if you disguise these things, these binary understandings of, you know, left, right, whatever. If you disguise it with memes and with clever, funny and timing, it's all about timing, doing it first and being funny, or it's all about being contrarian.

• 42:49Zack Telander?

  If you disguise all of those things and someone calls you out and says, hey, man, what about this gray area? You go, oh, it was just a joke, dude. Take it easy. You know, are you really going to say that all men aren't bad at a time like this? It's like, well, why can't I, you know, or vice versa? Not all women are bad at a time, you know, when something comes up. So I always think that that that happens and it's just so prevalent in social media. It's like, You really got to cut through all of that.

• 43:16Chris Williamson?

  Well, you got to think certainty and black and white thinking and a pithy, well-rounded, snappy tagline sounds a lot like wisdom and insight and understanding. Like, that's a good proxy for those things. It's not those things, but it sounds like what someone that actually knew what they were talking about would say. And I think that that's one of the reasons that it catches fire online because a platform like Twitter or TikTok specifically isn't built to have longer form discussions. It's built to optimize for pithiness, right? It's built to be optimized for shortness. So what you end up with is not necessarily the argument which is the most right. It's the one that is the most believable or sounds the most right.

• 44:00Chris Williamson?

  And that gets filtered through all sorts of things. People use fluency as a proxy for truthfulness. So that's why the people that have great delivery, presidents that have amazing, I did not have sexual relations with that woman. Like, Bill Clinton got away with all sorts because he had fucking great delivery. So, okay, how do you sort of pull these things apart? And yet you have an entire internet of people that are able, they have way too much spare time, but people still get seduced by the same things.

• 44:32Zack Telander?

  Do you feel like the internet has evolved into this thing where it's all about relatable? It's all about, oh, haha, like, my face when, you know, like, my face when this happens? Or like, I feel like almost all of TikTok is relating a life experience to other people. And maybe that's how things have always been, but it's meme and meta culture has literally taken almost every single aspect of the internet at this point.

• 45:03Chris Williamson?

  You're the expert on TikTok, man. That is one of the things I'm so glad.

• 45:07Zack Telander?

  I'm not.

• 45:08Chris Williamson?

  That I didn't, I haven't developed that compulsion. You know, of all of the other.

• 45:15Chris Williamson?

  Addictions online that I've got, I'm so glad that TikTok wasn't one of them.

• 45:20Zack Telander?

  I'm slowing down for sure. I'm definitely slowing down. It was definitely really intriguing at first, but I always observe it through a critical lens. Like, I'm always criticizing whatever the idea is. But the girls versus boys, boys versus girls thing, there's problems on either side of that debate. And what I'm able to do when I look at TikTok is observe the comments, see where I disagree, decide what I, you know, rather than a lot of people, it's just confirmation bias, right? It's just, oh, I believe that thing. They did a really funny video that was quirky and timed up really nicely with my life. Let me just repost it to my Instagram story really quickly. Okay?

• 46:02Zack Telander?

  That, I believe that things like that can eventually do more harm than good. And that's not why I use TikTok. I just use it to just observe and see what's going on in the internet. There are some really funny, just stupid comedy viral videos still, so I'm always down to watch stuff like that, but it is a good platform for observation. Twitter, on the other hand, is something that I don't think I could ever get into.

• 46:30Chris Williamson?

  Interesting.

• 46:30Zack Telander?

  I don't even know if I really tried.

• 46:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I quite like Twitter. Speaking of which, I got sent this thread by Rob Henderson earlier on, which is really interesting. "Could the matching imbalance on Tinder and other dating apps be a factor in the rise of the incel movement and young men reporting low sexual activity?" So there's a graph here that says the young men, share of men and women between the ages of 18 and 30 reporting no sex in the past year, and that has gone up from 10% to 30% for men since around about 2010 to 2020 to now, right? So over the last decade, the number of men reporting no sex in the last year has tripled. And the line on the graph has got where Tinder's introduced,

• 47:14Chris Williamson?

  and it is exactly when men, where that inflection for men beginning to go from the 10% to the 28%. Women also actually stay flat for a little while, but have increased. Which is also very interesting. Wealth in Tinder is not distributed equally. Attractive guys have more wealth in the Tinder economy. They get more likes than unattractive guys. That's the bottom 80% of men, bottom 20% of women, top 80% of women, top 20% of men thing, which a lot of people are familiar with. There's a thing called a Gini coefficient, or a Gini coefficient, which works out how much inefficiency there is within a system. So it's used to look at economies within countries.

• 47:57Chris Williamson?

  And the lower that the number is, the more equality there is within wealth distribution. So if modern dating apps were a country, it would be one of the most unequal in the world. The Tinder economy has a higher Gini coefficient than 95.1% of the countries in the world. It's just below South Africa. It's above Venezuela.

• 48:20Zack Telander?

  Disparity of wealth.

• 48:22Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's above Venezuela and just below South Africa. That's where it sits. According to Open Source Data, a man of average attractiveness can only be expected to be liked by slightly less than 1% of females, 0.87% on Tinder. This equates to one like for every 115 females. And men in the bottom 10% see just one match per week at most. Ultimately, most women only swipe on a handful of men per day, while men are more freewheeling with their swipes. So yeah, men, females pass on 95% and like on 5, and men are basically 50/50 left and right.

• 48:59Chris Williamson?

  It's just...

• 49:00Zack Telander?

  So we had talked about Tinder before, and one thing that I think is actually really interesting was, before Tinder, there were websites like eHarmony. You remember that?

• 49:14Chris Williamson?

  Match.com.

• 49:15Zack Telander?

  Match.com. And the way that we looked at it, you know, the guys in my friend group, the people my age, we looked at it as like, oh, what a weird fucking idea. Online dating, super weird. You're weird, like it's, it was just kinda like, what the hell? And then here's Tinder, this fun little swipey thing. It's kind of about hookups. It's everyone, it's a meme, right? It's a, it's a, it's like a meta-commentary. It's just like, this is hilarious. We're, we're swiping, it's hilarious. We match, oh, what's up? Like, and then almost immediately after that, online dating becomes something serious. It becomes something like, well, I haven't gotten

• 49:57Zack Telander?

  any dates, let me go online. There was really, there's really not much resisting to whether it's cool or not. You can resist whether you want to do it, or whether it's legit or not, or if the masses are doing it. But if someone says, hey, I'm on Hinge, or I'm on Tinder, they're not gonna get made fun of, because it's just the masses are doing that. Whereas eHarmony and Match.com, like if you had done that at the time where they were very prevalent, for I think, older generations, it was definitely seen as a weird thing.

• 50:29Chris Williamson?

  That's the same as anything, though, right? There's adoption, adoption curves happen slowly.

• 50:33Zack Telander?

  But it wasn't like eHarmony, it wasn't like we all jumped on eHarmony. We all jumped on the hookup app that required zero effort.

• 50:42Chris Williamson?

  That made this.

• 50:44Zack Telander?

  The location services was, I think, the thing. You are in the same location as that person, here's a picture of them, do what you want with it. Rather than this kind of weird,

• 50:58Zack Telander?

  almost like MySpace-y type of AOL vibe to it, which you would get from eHarmony and Match.com.

• 51:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 51:04Zack Telander?

  Maybe on the Tinder thing, you get this more, you get this handheld, you know, location services, this app on your device.

• 51:12Chris Williamson?

  Good user experience, less boomer-y. Well, why do you think it would be that the introduction of Tinder would?

• 51:20Chris Williamson?

  Increase the number of men reporting no sex. You think it's just women? Do you think that what this guy's implying in the thread is because of this high inequality? That women are sort of wistfully chasing after the eight out of tens and above for guys and they're not giving any attention to the dudes at the bottom? Because you would have presumed, maybe if you hadn't been able to work out what was actually going to go on. Everyone's talking to everyone more. That should facilitate more casual sex for everybody overall. But what it seems has happened is the gains have been sort of accrued to the very few super chads at the top. And then there's this big sexless underclass of men that is now 30% of men reporting no sex within the last year.

• 52:02Zack Telander?

  Yeah, I mean, more matches for the female would mean, uh, you know, why would you take the male that you're less attracted to? Right? Like, why would you take the opportunity if you know you can match with more and more and more and more people? You're going to leave out a very large chunk of other people where men apparently do not have that option. So, yeah, I mean, it's they're just chasing after the potential match that they know is more likely going to happen. Maybe if those two people meet, like, this is also another thing. Women are and men are now looking at their potential mate through the lens of looks.

• 52:42Zack Telander?

  Whereas before, you might not think someone is attractive until there's some sort of action that makes them attractive. Whether that's someone in your class or, uh, you know, someone you go to the gym with or whatever. That interaction is what makes them attractive and then you're looking at someone who, if you saw their Tinder profile or if you saw their Hinge profile, you would not have swiped. So maybe that's occurring less, you know, potential mates like.

• 53:13Zack Telander?

  You just had on a guest who said that the worst quality to look for for a long term relationship is looks.

• 53:20Chris Williamson?

  Conventional attractiveness, yeah.

• 53:22Zack Telander?

  And that is exactly what people are looking at when they get these apps.

• 53:26Chris Williamson?

  Well, I think that this probably explains a big chunk of why relationships are now increasingly short, and this is something that people don't necessarily see. So it's easy to say there is now a global sexual marketplace. Anybody with an Instagram account or a Tinder account can basically be in the entire world's sexual marketplace, right? They can be dating somebody in Guatemala, or Bali, or Germany, or wherever they want. And therefore, that means that people are mate switching more easily because the friction of doing that is lower, and because the number of competitors for whoever your mate is, is significantly higher now, and that women will lily pad from one guy to one guy, from

• 54:08Chris Williamson?

  one chad to one chad to the next one. Now, the thing that Seth Stephens Davidowitz said that was really interesting is that the algorithms can predict what you're going to click on unbelievably well. They will be able to predict with like insane accuracy whether you'll swipe left or right on someone, and the algorithms can do basically nothing to work out whether or not you'll have long term happiness and whether a relationship will last long term. So for the people that didn't see the episode, the things that are most often used as cues for whether or not someone will swipe right or left are things like height, conventional attractiveness, wealth level, and job, right? Those are some of the most common things that

• 54:51Chris Williamson?

  are used. These have zero, basically zero correlation with whether or not a relationship is happy long term. Those things were psychological stability, conscientiousness, a growth mindset, a bunch of other things, none of which can be displayed on a Tinder profile. I can't tell whether you've got a growth mindset, or whether you're somebody that's psychologically stable.

• 55:14Zack Telander?

  Mentally stable.

• 55:15Chris Williamson?

  Yep, precisely. In fact, you might be able to try and signal precisely that through your looks, and then have the complete opposite. You can put window dressing up as much as you want. So my point being that What people are doing now is optimizing for the wrong parameters. People are optimizing for things which are completely arbitrary when it comes to long-term relationship happiness. For girls, things like height, I think it's something like 80% of women on Hinge have their height limit set to six foot or above for men. That's less than 10%, I want to say, less than 10 or 15% of men in the United States are above six foot. And yet that, and height has zero predictive ability when it comes to looking at long-term relationship happiness.

• 56:00Chris Williamson?

  Imagine you saying to me, dude, I only date girls who are a size four and a half shoe. I'd be like, why? Why? I know that this has no bearing on whether or not you're going to be happy in this relationship, but you just pick this arbitrary thing because it's become captured by the culture that girls that are size four and a half feet.

• 56:19Zack Telander?

  Do you know what? I have a great, I almost have a reasoning for that having, and this is anecdotal, but I feel as though girls hold more of an enemus towards these dating apps. So they say, look, if I'm gonna get on Hinge, I'm gonna get the best of the best. And if it doesn't work, no problems for me. I don't give a shit. I don't give a shit if I get one match, if I get 10 matches, I don't care. I'm on this thing to not get fucked over, but I, if I'm gonna get someone, they better be tall, they better be good looking, they better be this, this and this. Where maybe it's not the same approach for men. Right? I can honestly say that I've heard many, many women just say like, it's almost like

• 57:04Zack Telander?

  the dating app owes them for being on.

• 57:06Chris Williamson?

  Because they resent the fact that they maybe have to be on there.

• 57:08Zack Telander?

  They resent the idea that they're there, yes.

• 57:10Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting.

• 57:12Zack Telander?

  That's absolute, that has to be it, right? I mean, and then men are on there because it's like, well, fuck, I haven't gotten laid.

• 57:17Chris Williamson?

  I'm not sure that it has to be, I think that would be a really interesting.

• 57:20Zack Telander?

  Or I'm lonely and I want to mate or something like that, and I really hope this works. You know, I don't think, I think it's less likely that a male is going to be on there and be resentful for it.

• 57:30Chris Williamson?

  I don't know, man. A lot of guys seem to be very resentful of online dating as well now.

• 57:34Zack Telander?

  Well, they don't, they don't like it, but I think their approach to it is less of, uh, well, if I don't get the best looking girl, I don't give a shit.

• 57:42Chris Williamson?

  Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that's inevitable because of the fact that guys are the, um, they're the protagonists and girls are the gatekeepers. Right. That's always the way that it, that it's going to be. It, you know, I mean, hinge, hinge is designed. Hinge is designed, the whole novelty around hinge is that it flips that imbalance on its head. Because typically it's the guy that messages first and on hinge, it has to be the other way around. I think.

• 58:08Zack Telander?

  No, that's Bumble. That's Bumble. Bumble is, Bumble, yes, Bumble.

• 58:13Chris Williamson?

  But you know what? That's the one I meant.

• 58:15Zack Telander?

  Right. Yeah.

• 58:16Chris Williamson?

  Well, you go, well, the power dynamics been shifted because for precisely this reason, because to avoid girls from having too many incoming messages from guys that they, whatever, like erroneously accidentally swiped right on or some shit. But yeah, man, it's, um, it's really interesting. I, I just don't feel very positive, I think, about the world of online dating at the moment. I just don't see it getting any better. You know, I even had Logan Urie, I had Hinge's Director of Relationship Science on. So she's a lady that's in charge of looking at how the apps facilitate relationships long-term. And she had some great points to put across. She's very keen into intentional dating, being deliberate with what am I looking for? Why is it so on and so forth?

• 59:02Chris Williamson?

  But the apps simply can't get around the fact that people tend to optimize for the wrong parameters now. They tend to optimize for stuff that doesn't have any predictive power. And how would you create an app that was able to gauge someone's growth mindset or their psychological stability?

• 59:17Zack Telander?

  So did you see the Black Mirror episode?

• 59:20Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 59:21Zack Telander?

  Where, okay, so this is fantastic. They, basically it's two people that go to this. This or this camp thing or whatever it is. And what that what happens is the algorithm or the the machine pairs you up with someone. And then based off of your date, they determine how long you are to spend with that person. And sometimes it says you will be with this person for the next six months. You will be with this person for the next six years. You will be with this person for the next 12 hours. And at the end of it, you absolutely must change partners. And I'm spoiling it, so I don't care. It's been out for like seven years.

• 1:00:00Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:00:00Zack Telander?

  It's an episode of Black Mirror. And what happens is this guy ends up falling in love. And then they say, you are only to be together for like the next four months or something like that. I can't, I don't know the exact thing. And if you break the rules, like you, you are not allowed to break the rules. It's kind of like this sci fi feeling to it.

• 1:00:21Zack Telander?

  And then what happens is they have to break up. And he says, fuck the rules, fuck all this, we're gonna escape together. And so he grabs her and they make this big run away from the camp or whatever. And then they climb this big wall. And then everything just dematerializes around them. And what they realize is, or what you realize at the end, is that they were just a couple of AIs that were running through a machine to see if two couples in real life, not in this AI world that they created, were meant to be together. They they went over all of the things that the intangibles that can't be done in an app. So this is, this would be something that you would have to do. You'd have to create a very scalable AI version of other people and be able to match them

• 1:01:05Zack Telander?

  and put them through the real test. The longing for one another when they can't be together, like put them through the real test. And if they, and if it ends up working out in that little AI world, you'll say this person is a 97.1% match. So on and so forth.

• 1:01:21Chris Williamson?

  You want to do?

• 1:01:21Zack Telander?

  That would be the only way to do that.

• 1:01:23Chris Williamson?

  Simulated Tinder?

• 1:01:25Zack Telander?

  It would be, yeah, but the problem is that you, you know, you have the, these AI, they live these conscious lives only to fulfill our needs to, to find the right mate. But I, I, I mean, you're right. It's we, as of right now, we can only look at these simple ass metrics that really aren't that important. It's usually just what they look like. Like you said, their height, physical attractiveness.

• 1:01:51Chris Williamson?

  What they can write in a bio.

• 1:01:53Zack Telander?

  And what they can write in a bio. Is it clever enough to make me giggle? Can they break the ice right when they message me? All shit that doesn't matter two years into a relationship and you gotta figure out who's gonna, you know, take care of certain things around the house and all these things. None of that shit matters.

• 1:02:09Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, or it's a pandemic. It's a pandemic and you, you need to work out how you two are going to deal with being apart from each other or living in a house together with each other. Like going back and looking at someone's Tinder profile and comparing that with the.

• 1:02:22Zack Telander?

  What you know now.

• 1:02:23Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, precisely.

• 1:02:24Zack Telander?

  Oh my god.

• 1:02:25Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And it is, it is so bizarre when you think about it. You're like, it's all window dressing and none of these things that you're looking at in the window are actually things that matter for long-term happiness. Conventional attractiveness has zero predictive power for long-term relationship success. Like, what the fuck? What the fuck?

• 1:02:45Zack Telander?

  It doesn't matter how loudly you say that. It doesn't matter how loudly or how many times you say that. I'm pretty sure it's been said many times before and it's only getting more and more important.

• 1:02:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And also there's like the, on both sides of the fence here, like it's increasingly, for all that, the sort of body positivity movement and that Sports Illustrated cover has come out and this is what fitness looks like from self.com and the future of healthiness or whatever it was on Cosmopolitan. For all of that, like, I don't really see anybody on the apps actually changing their personal preferences. It's like, oh, okay. So you're happy to share this front cover on your Twitter account and yet you're still swiping left and right on exactly the same people when it comes to your own personal preferences.

• 1:03:34Zack Telander?

  Be careful what you say, Chris, because you're spitting facts and it is very funny. It's like, oh, you, you really are accepting of all body types, but when it comes to dating apps, all of a sudden. You don't want any part in that. But yeah, I mean, look, this is really funny because I just saw this today. It's Tim Dillon. Basically, he's saying it doesn't matter the organization. They don't. When they grow to have enough power and enough eyes on them, they can never care about you as an individual. And you know, those people that are putting out, you know, the this is beautiful and all these virtue signaling things is like, if you are truly about that cause, give all your money to charity.

• 1:04:19Zack Telander?

  If you are truly or or show, you know, you they just utilize it purely as something that would drive clicks. That will, you know, Jordan Peterson did more for that Sports Illustrated magazine than anyone else could have. They dude, the CEO or the editor in chief for Sports Illustrated should go and thank Jordan Peterson. They probably haven't had that many clicks in ages. For fuck's sake, I clicked on it. I was like, whoa, oh shit, the the this the swimsuit edition is out. Let's see what's going on here.

• 1:04:57Zack Telander?

  I want to see who the woman is that he thinks is is not attractive. Of course, I'm going to do that, you know?

• 1:05:03Chris Williamson?

  It is. It is. You're so right, man. Like, they must be split testing what gets the most clicks for this. The fashion companies that are using plus size models, you'll notice that they never use skinny fat guys. So they'll have normal dudes. Oh, my God. Did you see this the other day? So it was so funny. One of my guys, one of my guy mates tweeted this from the UK about how it was different types of underwear. One was for men and one was for women. And the women was women of all sizes and the dudes were shredded out of existence. And it was just like a comparison of the women's underwear and the guys underwear and all of the guys were absolutely ripped.

• 1:05:47Zack Telander?

  Bro, that that kind of sucks, dude. That kind of sucks. Like, look, I guess maybe it's not masculine of me, but to have that be the standard for men and to not be like, hey, it's accepting. It's acceptable for a man to do that because, hey, look like. Someone, you know, said this the other day and it was a woman. She said like, you know, I sometimes misinterpret this. We can give as much shit as we want to men because they're men. You know, it's like we misinterpret it. It's like they should be able to handle that. You know, we have looked at a society where, you know, we look at through the lens of the quote unquote patriarchy. And so we-

• 1:06:29Chris Williamson?

  Dude, I've just put it in the chat. Have a look at this thing. So have a look at the difference between it's Meyer and the women's lingerie and the guy's lingerie.

• 1:06:39Zack Telander?

  Holy shit, wait, this is the exact same. Is this the same page or did they cut it?

• 1:06:43Chris Williamson?

  No, this is the same page.

• 1:06:52Zack Telander?

  You know what? What does that fucking say, man? What does it say to men? It's like, oh, yeah, like, you guys don't need to be babied at all, ever. You don't need compliments, you know? Oh, your feelings are hurt? Well, you're a man.

• 1:07:06Chris Williamson?

  Can you, for the people that are just listening, can you describe the image?

• 1:07:10Zack Telander?

  Alright, so look. So look, we have the women of all sizes on top. We have women of all ages for sure on top. You know, we have an older lady on the right. Couple older ladies in the middle.

• 1:07:21Chris Williamson?

  And ethnicities as well.

• 1:07:24Zack Telander?

  All ethnicities. Men shredded shredded shredded chicken. Absolute dick skin peeled. Uh, okay. Well, it looks like we have a couple of different races here and then shredded.

• 1:07:39Chris Williamson?

  Well, no, it's not a couple of different races. There's only one like slightly caramel guy, but that's the same dude twice.

• 1:07:45Zack Telander?

  Oh, that's the same dude. That's the same dude twice. Great.

• 1:07:48Chris Williamson?

  Homeboy in the middle is ready to step on stage. He's peeled out of his mind.

• 1:07:53Zack Telander?

  Yeah. This is not, uh, yeah, the acceptable, but this is interesting. They have, um, this is different brands. So are they pulling from, are these like Meyer, uh, models or what's the deal here?

• 1:08:08Chris Williamson?

  I'm not sure. Cause sometimes, sometimes e-commerce sites will have their, they'll get products from a bunch of different brands, then they'll shoot it in their style, right? Like ASOS does this. ASOS has ASOS models, even though they might have Nike clothes. So it doesn't really matter that it's different brands.

• 1:08:23Zack Telander?

  This is fucked up, man.

• 1:08:25Chris Williamson?

  How fucking wild is that?

• 1:08:30Chris Williamson?

  It's so blatant.

• 1:08:32Zack Telander?

  But anyways, to finish what I was saying is just like this, this idea that, you know, this woman had brought this to my, my attention. She's like, you know, I, I do tend to just not really give as much of a shit about men's feelings because it's always, we're worried about, we are worried about women's feelings and a lot of times we can brush it off. And that is a mistake that I've, I've made and I try not to make anymore. And, you know, it's the same thing here. It's like, well, we have to absolutely worry about body dysmorphia in men. Because the moment that men begin to think that their bodies aren't as acceptable as they could or should be, they can develop problems that, you know, they usher out into, to real life. We've seen this in, in bodybuilding, in, in my world, in fitness, like,

• 1:09:16Zack Telander?

  the people that are constantly commenting on another dude's body, like they do have problems within their, their own worlds. This isn't just men towards women. It could be women towards women or men towards other men. And it happens a lot of men towards other men.

• 1:09:33Chris Williamson?

  But dude, think about what, what we said on the last one, which is slut shaming, the amount of slut shaming that goes from women to women, the amount of people who are anti-abortion or pro-life. By and large, it's women. The vast majority of comments that are done about other women's appearance is done from women to women. And yeah, like, this is where the whole battle of the genders thing.

• 1:09:58Zack Telander?

  Yeah, you can't, you, it's can't just be this thing where it's like, men.

• 1:10:02Chris Williamson?

  Versus women or women.

• 1:10:03Zack Telander?

  Men versus women or women versus men. It really is problematic. And I, it's so fucking weird. It's like, I had this realization on TikTok. Because it's like the Gen Z kids, the kiddos out there. Like, you're noticing a lot of women who are just like, they, they're playing on it. They're not actually serious, but they always vocalize it's like having a crush on a woman now. Like, women are much more vocal about being sexually interested in other women because of their disdain for men in general.

• 1:10:36Zack Telander?

  Because we have the men versus girls, girls versus, or sorry, yeah, men versus girls, girls, whatever. You know, that, that war going on between the two of them, it's just so apparent. And the same could be said on the opposite side. Like the, the, the idea of, oh, she's for the streets. You know what I mean? Like.

• 1:10:54Chris Williamson?

  What's that mean?

• 1:10:54Zack Telander?

  The, the, it's like, um. If a, if a woman, you know, does something that's slutty, she's for the streets.

• 1:11:01Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:11:02Zack Telander?

  Pick your hea- pick your head up, King. Like, focus on yourself.

• 1:11:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:05Zack Telander?

  As it's, that's like the, the meme language that's kind of surrounds it. And they both have their flaws, you know, but it's, it's, it's always, it's, for me, the only reason I'm bringing it up is because like, I don't see that changing. And I think you, you told me this before, like, uh, that's where you, you have your issues, Zach, is that you call to action a culture shift, which is just like an almost impossible task.

• 1:11:30Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:11:30Zack Telander?

  I do that a lot on my videos. I go, I, I wish as a culture, we could do this thing better. Um, or, or I'm pointing out this flaw in, in some sort of fitness charlatan and I'm, I'm wishing that we could do this thing better. And for some reason, I forget what your point was or who brought it to your attention, but it's like, calling to action this match, massive cultural shift is not always the answer. Where it's, it's not even remotely the answer. It will never work.

• 1:11:55Chris Williamson?

  I just don't think that it's realistic because you don't have like a god's eye coordination for this. You know, what you would need to do would be able to sit everybody down and say, look, here are some interesting insights, guys and girls, about where you think your repression or your vulnerability or your difficulties come from. And a lot of them are calls that are coming from inside of your own fucking house, right? Women who will, for the most part, presume that, I, I would guess if you were to do a survey of women, they would think that slut shaming, anti-abortion rhetoric and body shaming mostly comes from men. It doesn't. It comes from women. And guys, like, most of the guys that are having the piss taken out of them about the way that they look or about how strong they are, about how noodly their arms are and stuff, that,

• 1:12:37Chris Williamson?

  it's not girls that are saying that. It's your bros. It's your bro friends or the people that aren't even your friends, right? Like, that's where the vast majority of attention, but this gender war thing that we've got that's going on at the moment. It gets clicks, right? Because it creates an easy in-group and out-group. You know, maybe after race, it's the most prevalent and most obvious in-group and out-group that there is.

• 1:13:02Zack Telander?

  Yeah, and then, you know, you would, you would assume that is part of like the, you know, the non-binary discussion as well. You can create in-group, out-group easily there.

• 1:13:10Chris Williamson?

  Well, there's a million different in-groups and out-groups if you do that. Look, Z, let's bring this one home, man. People want to keep up to date with the shit that you're doing. Where should they go?

• 1:13:20Zack Telander?

  Uh, please go to my YouTube channel. Um, I discuss things, all, all things fitness. A little bit of a, you know, a focus on Olympic-style weightlifting, but I try to focus on general fitness. My Instagram, coach underscore Z T. If you want programming, uh, I have general programming. I have squat programming for what you want to do in the gym. Go to patreon.com slash Zach Telander. And I think that's it. That's all.

• 1:13:49Chris Williamson?

  That's it, man.

• 1:13:50Zack Telander?

  Thanks for the cameras. Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all keep the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:14:08Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped going? You stall, you freeze to death. That's what.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:14:16Speaker 03

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only appears October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17.9 minutes without parent.