SotN#15 w/ Jordan Lyall - $MEME is Hot, Why EIP1559 Isn't Here, UNI: Buy, Sell, or Hold?

Episode: #31 September 21, 2020 ----- Tools from our sponsors to go bankless: 🌐 UNSTOPPABLE DOMAINS https://bankless.cc/unstoppable - GET A HUMAN READABLE CRYPTO DOMAIN https://bankless.cc/unstoppable 🌈 ZAPPER - ULTIMATE HUB FOR DEFI http://bankless.cc/zapper - ZAP INTO DEFI 💳 MONOLITH - GET THE HOLY GRAIL OF BANKLESS VISA CARDS https://bankless.cc/monolith 💸 AAVE - LEND AND BORROW DEFI ASSETS https://aave.com/ ---- State of the Nation - $MEME, NFTs, and EIP1559 $MEME is the main topic of conversation in this state of the nation. We bring on Jordan Lyall (@jordanlyall), the accidental founder of $MEME, to help us understand how MEME accidentally became a thing by memeing itself into existence. 1) $MEME IS HOT RN 2) WHY EIP1559 ISN'T HERE 3) IS UNI A BUY, HOLD, OR SELL? RESOURCES: 1) DON'T BUY MEME https://dontbuymeme.com/farms 2) EIP1559 AMA https://crypto-ama.herokuapp.com/messages_eip_1559.html 3) UNI TOKEN CLAIM DASHBOARD https://explore.duneanalytics.com/dashboard/uni-token-claims Rate the Podcast 5 Stars ----- Subscribe to podcast on iTunes https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bankless/id1499409058 | Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/41TNnXSv5ExcQSzEGLlGhy | YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/bankless | RSS Feed http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ Leave a review on iTunes https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bankless/id1499409058 Share the episode with someone you know! ----- Don't stop at the podcast! Subscribe to the Bankless newsletter program http://bankless.substack.com/ Watch Bankless shows and tutorials on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/bankless Visit official Bankless website http://banklesshq.com/ for resources Follow Bankless on Twitter https://twitter.com/BanklessHQ Follow Ryan on Twitter https://twitter.com/ryansadams Follow David on Twitter https://twitter.com/TrustlessState ----- Not financial or tax advice. This podcast is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. Do your own research.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00David Hoffman?

  The.

• 2:10David Hoffman?

  The.

• 5:10David Hoffman?

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• 5:54David Hoffman?

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• 6:39David Hoffman?

  making it really easy to compare and contrast different places as to where you can deploy your capital. Check them out at zapper.fi.

• 6:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. Welcome, Bankless Nation. This is State of the Nation number 15. We've got a special guest for you, Jordan Lyall, who is the creator, maybe the accidental creator of meme, which is our main topic that we're going to talk about today. If this is your first State of the Nation, David and I do this every Tuesday, and what we do is we talk about the things that are going on in DeFi, in crypto, in the Bankless Nation that you should know about. And we relay those things, relate those things to some of the big picture topics that we talk about on the Bankless Podcast and in the newsletter. So this drops every Tuesday. It's live. We're doing it an hour early, but generally,

• 7:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  it's going to be 2:00 PM Eastern. If you want to catch it live, you can also catch the recorded version on Bankless YouTube. And of course, we release these on our podcast stream on Wednesday, if you are more of the audio sort of person. Just some quick announcements before we get in. We had an epic episode with Hugh from the Nexus Protocol that dropped on Monday. We also have an NFT episode that's coming out the following Monday. David, what did you think about that NFT episode? Are NFTs going to be the next big thing, my friend?

• 8:05David Hoffman?

  You know what? That's kind of what it seems to be shaping up to be. NFTs seem to be really hot right now. And I'll be honest, it kind of caught me by surprise. I was not on the ball with that one. Turns out that there's a world of NFTs that I kind of haven't been paying attention to. And that's kind of getting to what the State of the Nation is, right? There seems to be a lot of excitement around NFTs. And so we have an NFT themed episode today. And then we also have an NFT themed podcast coming out on your feed on Monday.

• 8:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Absolutely. Yeah. So NFTs are maybe the next up incoming thing in DeFi. So you got to check that out. Also, we have an article coming out, much demanded article actually on taxes, with all of this farming revenue coming in the door, like, how do you, the IRS is going to want their cut. How do you manage those taxes? That's coming on the Bankless newsletter as well. As lastly, an AMA this Thursday with Hugh Carp again, where you get to ask your questions of Hugh. But I'm going to start with a question I always start with at the beginning of these State of the Nation episodes, and that is this. David, what is the State of the Nation this week?

• 9:13David Hoffman?

  The state of the nation this week is memeing, which has only a little bit to do with meme the asset, which is a topic that we're going to get into, but the memes have been strong lately. I think this effort is perhaps spearheaded by Blue Kirby, who has been doing a fantastic job memeing into existence so many memes, such as few and weesh, which I don't yet understand, but I'm trying to. It makes me feel a little bit like a boomer, but the memes are flowing, the memes are flowing.

• 9:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  This whole episode is going to make me feel like a little bit of a boomer because I haven't fully been been keeping up on meme, the actual asset. And Jordan's going to get us up to speed on that. But like, is it just me, David? Or have you noticed an uptick in Ethereum's and DeFi's ability to come up with memes? Like last, like the last few couple of years even, it's been all Bitcoiners. Like if you, if you want the great crypto memes, they came out of Maximo's territory and Bitcoiner territory. But now, I don't know if it's just me, but it feels like the meme game has shifted and the Ethereum's and the DeFi's are like picking it up.

• 10:19David Hoffman?

  Yeah, really well.

• 10:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Maybe they're ahead of the Bitcoiners.

• 10:22David Hoffman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right now, like.

• 10:23David Hoffman?

  Big lead.

• 10:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  You think so?

• 10:25David Hoffman?

  There's a, there's a lot of memes that like I only understand because like I can go to a friend and ask them like, all right, what does this meme mean? And then I explain, then they explain it to me and then I understand it and then I'm a part of it, right? Like as soon as you understand a meme, you're a part of the meme, right? And so, and, and the, the way that I think memes work, that first off, they're highly correlated to asset appreciation. Right? And so that like a token number goes up, then the meme culture begins, right? Like that, these things are linked together. And when DeFi fun times happen and there's a bunch of assets all going up in price, you have like a decentralized production facility of memes coming out of every single corner of DeFi, every single corner of Ethereum. So like the meme factory has like started to churn out some really quality memes.

• 11:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's super impressive. Well, aptly aptly named state of the nation than David. So why don't we get to our first topic? And this is one of three topics. So we're going to talk about memes, the asset today and get caught up to speed on what that is. We're also going to talk about EIP 1559. And like, is it just me? Or did we enter a bear market? Is the bear not fully dead? We'll talk about that. And then thirdly, we're going to talk again about the uni airdrop, which I think is warrants a another conversation this week as well. But first, let's talk about memes. Let's talk about NFTs. We're bringing on Jordan Lyall, who is the accidental creator of the meme asset.

• 11:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Jordan, welcome to Bank of the Nation, or State of the Nation. How are you doing, sir? You got me all flustered with this meme stuff.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  There you go. It's it's flustering for sure. I'm doing well. How are you guys?

• 12:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  We are doing fantastic. You know, so David and I, you got a confession to make. So we try to keep up with everything in DeFi. And like, we do a decent job, right? But there's a lot to keep up with. And meme is one of the things that we haven't yet fully kept up on. And so so we're kind of relying on you to explain this thing to us, explain what this thing does and what it is, and how you got involved. And maybe, Jordan, we could start with kind of the the Genesis tweet, right? So I'm going to actually share this and maybe you can explain how this whole thing started with this Genesis tweet. So I'm sharing right now a tweet that you made. When was this?

• 12:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, August 14th. So a little over a month ago. And this was meant to be a joke tweet. You said, introducing the degenerator, spin up a new DeFi project in as little as five minutes. And then you show this like mock up UI. Like some kind of a yield farm wizard user interface where you kind of select your governance. You select all the money Legos and then, you know, out pumps a, I guess, a new yield farm. Is that is that right?

• 13:16Speaker 02

  You you got it, man. Yeah, that's it.

• 13:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  So what happened with this with this tweet? And then what happened afterwards?

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Well, how much time do we have?

• 13:28Speaker 02

  So, so yeah, just like quick intro, I I'm a products guy building on DeFi, right? I've been full time Ethereum for like three plus years now. I'm at Consensus at the moment. Prior to that, I was at Total, the Dex aggregator as as chief product officer. So I've been living and breathing Ethereum and DeFi since it's been a thing, building products in this space.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  Pulse, thanks to you guys, in fact, you know, my finger on the pulse of what's going on. And this this this seems like so long ago, but it was it was five weeks ago. This was not not that long ago in in any normal person's calendar, right? But this was just as YAM happened, right? This is just as the curve token was deployed by O X Chad, right? On on Twitter. This was just as based was was coming out.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  And what we started to see was like, a lot of these guys were using, you know, the synthetics token for for staking. They were using this, or sorry, not the token, the the governance contract. The synthetics contract for this, the compound contract for that, they were just kind of mashing together contracts, right? Making some changes and they always told you, you know, like inconsequential changes to to this code that justifies not getting an audit. And, you know, my my background at Consensus, one of the projects that I that I was pretty proud about that that I that I led was the DeFi score. And it was all about like ratings agency on a blockchain. What does that look like? Ratings. It's awesome, by the way. Thanks for that.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  And so I'm always coming at it with like, as a user, I love this stuff, right? I I'm right in there with with you guys in the in the pools. I'm a I'm a D Gen by by night, but by day, I. You know, I've been thinking about like, how do we bring some credibility? A new user is just going to look at the highest APR and they're going to jump in. How do we start to become a better, just a better, more accessible banking or bankless infrastructure? So it's, it's kind of ironic, right? So I was kind of poking fun at the YOLO nature of test and prod, of pre mine, of get some

• 15:51Speaker 02

  rando to deploy the contracts perfectly for your entire, your entire protocol on main net first try. So it honestly, it, it, it occurred to me that this would be a fun project to build and we can probably build it. But of course, as like the, the lean startup MVP approach, I'm like, well, let's see if, if anybody would resonate, if this would resonate with anyone. And then it just became like, oh, I can squeeze in all these in jokes. So there's like lots of little Easter eggs in here. Just having a ton of fun with it. I just so happened to pick the pineapple emoji in this, in, in this screenshot. It was pure like, well, the Yam was taken, some of these other, like what's, what's cool, what's still food, but what's a little bit more, more fun?

• 16:35Speaker 02

  That, that's the, the, the, the source of the pineapple. And that was it. I posted it. I thought, I thought a couple of people, a couple of friends in the space would like it. I thought Anthony Sisana would retweet me. I thought we'd get some, we'd get some likes and then we'd be done. But that's, that did not happen. It actually got a ton of, of interest, as you can see by.

• 17:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. Okay. So shortly after, I think this is on the 15th, I think you, you posted a reply to your own tweet that says, what have I done? So what did you do? What happened, Jordan?

• 17:12Speaker 02

  So you'll see there's a, you see there's a hidden tweet in there that, that I, that I took down in between. If you, if you scroll up kind of in between there, maybe it's not showing. But anyway, so what had, what had quickly happened was. I said, well, I don't have a SoundCloud. How do I, how do I use this, this, this attention on Twitter? How do I use this momentum and do it for something good? So I, I created a Notion page. I, I, I bought a website, domain name, created a Notion page, sent users to that, sent users to Telegram for there. And I started a Telegram group. I thought it would just be a handful of us, like that, that, you know, those of us that had the same sense of humor,

• 17:54Speaker 02

  that, that loved DeFi, and we could do something fun in there. Maybe it's build a product for real, or maybe it's just share some laughs. But that's, that's kind of how things took off, is this Telegram group that was created.

• 18:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't want to fast forward too much, but I do want to give our listeners and watchers a, I guess, a perspective on what happened. And, you know, the, the way in crypto, we look at things a lot is price, right? So this is an actual, the actual meme token that was created on the back of this joke, as you said.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Thirty minutes, yeah, thirty minutes after creating the Telegram group, not me, someone else had the bright idea of creating an ERC20 token just for the lols.

• 18:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Just for the laughs. So somebody on the 15th, after you tweeted, what have I done? They created the ERC20 token, called it meme, right? And the price then was kind of funny, you know, $11, 180K, right? You know, good, good, good market cap for a joke. Now, here we are, and something has happened in between, because here we are five weeks later, as you say. The market cap is no longer $11 and 186K. It's now $1,400 and close to 13 million.

• 19:13David Hoffman?

  Just FYI, that's volume, Ryan.

• 19:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, my God. Sorry. All right, no, this, this is price.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's about 30, yeah.

• 19:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Ah, I was saying, okay, cap is 30 million. Ah, thank you for correcting me. So I was quoting, um, volume instead of cap, market cap. So we went from, let's see, um, we went from about 300K when it was launched to 31K. Thanks, that's better, guys.

• 19:41David Hoffman?

  31 million, yeah.

• 19:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  31 million, excuse me.

• 19:45David Hoffman?

  Which, which is partly why the state of the nation is memeing.

• 19:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right. So, so what happened, Jordan? How did this happen?

• 19:55Speaker 02

  It was this this magical moment where off the silly tweet, a Telegram group was created. A small group of people formed just for laughs, as you had mentioned. One thing led to another. The meme came first. It was, "Hey, we should we should have fun with this. Let's create an ERC 20 token. Let's fairly distribute it to everyone that's this early participant in this community. Fair, even distribution, no whales, everyone has equal share. Everyone got the airdrop that were that was in this early group. Part of the genesis was adding liquidity to Uniswap for ETH slash meme. And then, of course, in full meme, we sent the LP tokens to Vitalik's public address.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Essentially, essentially burning, essentially burning those tokens, right? So we could they can never rug pull because there will always be liquidity.

• 20:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  Why is that burning the tokens?

• 20:52David Hoffman?

  Because Vitalik's never gonna go get them.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  He could if he wanted to. That's a meme, though. Like, you could you could look it up. A lot of people have done this with their token, but.

• 21:01David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it's it's it's a meme because it's instead of sending it to like the burner address, the 0x000, they made a meme out of it to send it to Vitalik's address.

• 21:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, I wasn't even aware that was going on.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  It's just one meme in a in a long stream of memes here. Yeah.

• 21:19David Hoffman?

  It's memes on memes on memes. It's memes all the way down.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  All the way down.

• 21:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, but Jordan, you you guys literally checked all of the boxes like of what sort of the memiest thing you could create for this kind of a token, you know, was, right? Including this. So if you go to, yeah, I don't, was this the URL that you registered? "Don't buy meme"? Was that part of the joke or is that a different one?

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Not originally. I bought the degenerator.com, but quickly turned it into, you know, once we had a, once we, you know, day, day, day two. I settled on don't buy meme dot com.

• 21:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. So don't buy meme dot com, kind of like a reverse psychology thing, I guess, that is going on.

• 21:58David Hoffman?

  Or just another meme.

• 21:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Or just another meme, who knows, but what instructs you to do is, is don't buy it, don't farm it, don't join the telegram, don't have anything to do with it.

• 22:08David Hoffman?

  Although they are buttons.

• 22:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, they are buttons that allow you to do things they tell you not to do, but.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  This is compliance. This is how the SEC won't get after us.

• 22:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, yeah, because it's, it's basically the, the Andre from Wifey Play, right? Meme has zero value, right?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  That's it. Everyone was freaking out. Of course, this was before we had a product. This was before we had a website. We didn't, at the time, it was, hey, we're the Doge for DeFi, right? Like, this is just a meme coin. And people were, were fomoing hard and it was spreading around Twitter. It was spreading around all these P and D groups. And I have a reputation, or at least, you know, one that I'd like to maintain. And I work for consensus. I got to make sure that, that we're good there. So I was kind of distancing myself at the time, like dudes, like let's, let's ease off. This was just a joke. This was satire. You guys know this, right?

• 23:02Speaker 02

  So the, the meme became early on, don't buy meme, hashtag, don't buy meme. That's, it's been, it's been the meme all along. And when we got listed by Poloniacs yesterday, the meme was, don't, um, don't list meme. Like, please, please stop. Don't list us.

• 23:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, my God. So, so centralized exchange listed meme at this point, Poloniacs.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

• 23:23David Hoffman?

  Okay, so, so I have to ask, is there any?

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Tech level meme now.

• 23:27David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that we're, it, we're, yeah, it's in memeception over and over and over again. So I have to ask, like, is there any sort of fundamental value proposition to this? Or is it just a meme? Okay, so what's the fundamental value proposition to meme?

• 23:43Speaker 02

  So early on, it was just a meme, but it's long since been just a meme and in itself, that's a meme, right? So, so yeah, early days, pump and dump territory. What do I do? What do we do? Do I, do I distance myself? Do I, do I get more involved?

• 24:03Speaker 02

  It got, it got going into that territory. A lot of, a lot of people had dumped because of this, this early FOMO, you know, early days, we were able to, the token price is starting to get up there in price. A lot of people dumped. In fact, I'm not going to call them out here, but if you search for Twitter, there are a handful of people that have, that have publicly.

• 24:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Anthony Sisano.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 24:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  He dumped. And he regrets it.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  He was on Form 2, which is another meme, but he was on, he was on the airdrop that received the early, yeah, 355.55 meme. He dumped it pretty early on for a couple of years and why would you, why wouldn't you, right? This, you know, few grand for a funny joke, why not? But after all, the dumpers had dumped and moved on and I, and I'm trying not to take it personally that.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  My name attached to this thing, but, but we, but we can, we can move on.

• 24:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  After all, the dumpers had dumped. Uh, it was like, okay, what, what do we do? A few of us, we're, we're like, dude, this is, this is lightning in a bottle. Like this is magical. This is like, this doesn't come around very often that like we have something like we have the meme first. And then we have the brand or the community and then the brand. And now it's like, well, now what do we do? You know, I'm a product guy. Uh, so it was like, okay. If we are the Doge for DeFi, we would be composable, right? Like we would be a Lego brick.

• 25:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Of course.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  So what, what does that mean? And then a bunch of ideas floating to the top, you know, being discussed in this early group. This was 2:00 AM my time. I'm having a blast. Everyone, and this is all meanwhile, people are throwing memes, they're memeing each other, they're memeing me. But bunch of like, again, memeception memes on me, like this, it was just an insane ride. I wish, I wish we had filmed this thing.

• 25:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Meme fractals.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  If it become like this was, it was just, it was amazing 12 hours. But it was.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  An idea kind of floated to the surface and that was, hey, what's the, what's the meme is product that we could build, but actually provide some value and something that would, that would be worth our time, right? Like, we, we wanted to build something. I didn't, we didn't come all this way to just, to just fizzle out. Okay, yield farming was huge at the time. This was right after YAM. This was pre pasta, pre sushi. It sounds, it sounds weird to say, right? But this is pre food.

• 26:27David Hoffman?

  Forever ago.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was like, um, it was,

• 26:33Speaker 02

  it was early days and then the thought was, okay, yield farming. They haven't done NFT yield farming. Let's mash the two together and let's see what happens. A lot of things you can go that went in that direction, right? Like, a lot, a lot of different directions we can go. Fortunately, the, the engineers that happened to be in this small group of people that didn't sell their airdrop,

• 26:56Speaker 02

  they, they picked up and ran with it. And 10 days later, so 10 days after that tweet, we were live in production on mainnet doing pioneering, uh, NFT mining or NFT farming.

• 27:10David Hoffman?

  And to be clear, you didn't have that idea, nor did you execute anything, right?

• 27:17Speaker 02

  I didn't have the original idea. It was a community thing. Uh, at being a product guy and, and you know, UI focused, I wanted to get involved and help, and help get this out the door.

• 27:27David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  But it was a primarily a lift done by a couple of engineers that are, that are pretty amazing that, that continue to push this thing forward.

• 27:35David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  So yeah, always, always a custom, you know, community, community thing.

• 27:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Jordan, I'm showing on my screen. So if you're not familiar with this, this is a, it's kind of like the eBay-ish for, um, NFTs, non-fungible tokens. Um, if you're not familiar with, with what those are, but they're basically collectibles, crypto-based, um, crypto-registered collectibles. So most of these are registered on Ethereum. And, um, here are some that were recently listed, I believe by Meme Limited, as it's called. Um, so we've got what, the, these are yours, right, Jordan? We've got this Andre. These are not yours?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  No, they they they belong to me, but yeah, they're not mine.

• 28:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, okay. I know they're not yours. Sorry. They they belong to me, the Dow, and you guys have created these like different cards. And was that is that the first product that that you mentioned like? And this is kind of, I guess, crypto subculture, right? So we've got an Andre rare card. We've got a I saw some Vitalik cards in here. I saw some Hayden Adams cards that are newly minted as well. That we can see. Let's see here. Meme Grail Relic. Here's the Hayden legendary card. Okay, Hayden's card, he's the creator of Uniswap. For those that are not familiar, it's listed for over 944 ETH right now.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Sure is.

• 28:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  What are these selling for? Like, are these really selling?

• 29:01Speaker 02

  So we skipped over a big piece, and that's the actual like farming pools. So if you go back to it, we're we're we're much more than just like creating funny pictures and putting them on OpenSea, right? So it'll it'll make you connect the wallet. But if you if you were to jump into the farming stuff, you'll see.

• 29:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  I have to click Don't Farm to farm, right?

• 29:21Speaker 02

  I I can neither confirm nor deny.

• 29:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna click it. I'm just gonna do it. YOLO. All right, and I've got choose a farm Genesis or LP Genesis.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  So Pool one is Genesis. Pool two is LP Genesis. Pool three is Artist Series. So jump into jump into one of these. It may make you connect the wallet. I don't know if you're if you're connected here.

• 29:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  I am going to go against my better judgment and connect to the Genesis NFT collection.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  So the first batch included metallic, both rare, common and legendary. Sergey and then CZ from Binance. That was that was and then and then the relic, the meme grail. And that's it. That's all it was, was different rarities, a set of three for each crypto celebrity, each crypto OG. And that's that's what it was. We we worked with an artist and we built these awesome graphics, these trading cards essentially, right? And they had different rarities. But what you do, so the the mechanics here is if you click Manage Stake right there, you're assuming you had meme in your wallet, you'd approve it. And then you deposit, just like just like farming, just like locking up, just like staking, right?

• 30:36Speaker 02

  You you'd stake your meme token that you didn't buy. And you would, you would start accruing. So it's you earn one pineapple point for every meme locked per day. Minimum is one and the maximum is five. So we did not anticipate a token price of 1500 or whatever it is. At the time we built this, the token price was $15. So the barrier to entry was pretty low. But the reason we kept a maximum of five meme on there is to just prevent the whales from coming in and minting everything. Wanted to give some, some love to the little guy. But essentially, that's what you do is you lock up your meme.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  You're earning pineapples and then over time you come back and then you can exchange those pineapples for, for NFTs. And it's only minted when you click mint. Like these things don't exist until you, until you redeem them and mint them for the first

• 31:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wow. And then you can go and you can take that NFT and then you could go sell it on somewhere like OpenSea.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can sell it on the aftermarket and, and that's what those are there. People have been selling these things. People have been holding these things, you know, why not hodl? We're, we've kind of hinted at like down the road at it, giving extra utility. Potentially long-term, there's a trading card game. So there, there's a lot of different strategies in play here. But there is certainly a secondary market. The, the largest so far was the legendary and you're on the legendary would be another tab on there. If you go back to Genesis, and then you click LP. Now, in this case, you're not locking up meme, but you're locking up LP tokens, which is Uniswap. You know, you're, you're, you're essentially your tokenized share of liquidity on Uniswap. So

• 32:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  With what? What's it paired with? It's ETH and meme?

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Yep. And we, that was really just an experiment in, in like liquidity, right? Could we incentivize liquidity here? And it, at the moment, you know, at the time we launched, it went from maybe $40,000 USD in liquidity to $400,000 USD in liquidity. So we, we proved that, that that experiment worked. But yeah, so these are the legendary cards where only 10 exist. 10 will ever exist. The cool thing about 1155 is that you can, you can do a bunch of things like that where it's impossible for us to go burr, right? Like we can't, we can't add anymore.

• 33:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  1155s, you're referring to an ERC. These are not, these are not ERC 721s, which is an NFT. These are 1155s, right, which have some other feature sets related to them.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  A little bit, you know, it's, it's almost like a, a mix between a ERC 20 and ERC 721, where you can do some cool things. You can batch them together. You can create some additional rules. But the, but the, the one thing that's really interesting.

• 33:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  The blue Kirby?

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Got the blue Kirby, of course. So, so some of these have been, have been topping out. Right now, the record buy is the rare Sergey from Chainlink at the top there.

• 33:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  This one?

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it sold in, in one day. It sold for 7.7 ETH. The buyer turned it around and sold it for 77.7 ETH.

• 33:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  Are you kidding me?

• 33:57Speaker 02

  In the same day, 20K USD.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  30, no, 30, 30K, I think, something closer to 30.

• 34:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  That is absolutely insane.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  And, and why is that? I mean, there's, there's a lot of value here. There's only 10 that'll ever exist. At the time, it was the only one minted, right? And it's, it's kind of interesting to see like which.

• 34:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, this is like, this is like art, right? This is like collectibles art, but it's, it's a shared participation, you know, as well. So like, why does this have value? The same reason the Mona Lisa, I suppose, has, has value, right? Just like this shared social fabric and the shared history behind it. And the interesting thing I think too is you've got a lot of folks who are doing fairly well in crypto, right? So like, art always requires a rich, you know, patronage to, to pay for the art. And you kind of have that in, in crypto and in DeFi. Like, there's a lot of money floating around and not a lot of newly, newly won money that people apparently are, are throwing at things like that.

• 35:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is, you know, does that take resonate with you, Jordan? Or why do you, what's your explanation for why this card sold for 30 ETH?

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, what you were describing is is like NFTs in general, right? And and I I know you just did a podcast and I don't think it's live yet, but there's like that whole untapped thing, really, which is like DeFi is just now waking up to NFTs in general and all the and it's more it's more than just CryptoKitties. It's more than what meets the eye. What we did, and we can dive into that, but what we did is is is build on top of that. Instead of just being, you know, we could have easily sold these cards and maybe someone would have bought it. But we we created this economy where, I mean, it's a it's a meme sync to David could probably explain this better than I can. But you're

• 35:54Speaker 02

  the total value locked of meme locked across all our pools is up to like 12 million USD. Like, we're top top 20 or whatever it is in in TVL if if if we were on the list. People see value. They're locking up their meme to mint these things, whether it's because they they want to hold on to these things because they do. They do genuinely value like scarcity of these assets. Or they think there's some utility that may come down later. Or they have a ton of money and they want to tell their friends or they want to put it on display. Or they want to sell it like a lot of the these DeFi folks that are coming in. They see the aftermarket or the secondary market sales.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  So there's a 70 Andre Cromier went in and bought his own for for 32 ETH. We had another sale for 60 something ETH. All the rares sell for at least two or three ETH. Commons are starting to increase in value. This is the Genesis collection. You can you can strap extrapolate, right? If this is a platform that kind of leads the charge in the next bull run. But these these things are valuable.

• 36:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  So when you said meme sync, right, Jordan, you're referring to basically the ability of meme to essentially take memes that are going on in the crypto and DeFi space and essentially create products like cards out of that, collectibles out of that. And that can be kind of your your end product, but you're able to tap into all of the popular memes that are happening right now across crypto and DeFi, but but later in other places and sort of capitalize on that. And that's that's what the product is. Now, is there like an organization kind of? You know, that I guess a rudimentary skeleton kind of organization like, do you have graphic designers that you pay? And do you have developers that that are, you know, employed or contracted? Or like, how did, how's that shaping up?

• 37:44Speaker 02

  So yeah, that's been probably one of our interesting things is that

• 37:49Speaker 02

  early on, we created the Citadel, of course, right? And in order to join the Citadel, you needed to possess 100 meme, 100 meme tokens. At the time, it was easy to get in, very, the entry was low. Now, a token, let's just say, token price of 1500, it's $150,000 just to participate.

• 38:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  My god.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  But anyways, this is like the, it's like the DAO, it's like the Diet DAO, right? For now, it's just a tokenized, a, there's, there's proof, we're using, we're using this bot, Collabland, that allows you to monitor a Telegram group and really gated to only users that possess a certain number of tokens. So that's, that's the DAO and we're making.

• 38:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  And there's 80 members now, who are locking up at least 100 meme. This is what you quoted, oh, that's from the 16th, so there's probably more now.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, there, there, there, things have adjusted, you know, and for some people, we've hit moon. So, so people found their moon. And right now, it's around 50 or 60, yeah. But as, as a product guy, and there, there may be some, you know,

• 39:03Speaker 02

  contention here, but it's, it's decentralization is a sliding scale, as is another meme. But so certain things get up, put up for vote, other things, especially as it relates to the product. I, I would like a little bit more input, being that that's my background, I feel I can provide a lot of value. It's creating products and, and, and doing that, and my face. And I'm one of the only non-anonymous people in like the leadership role. So I need to make sure that it, it matches my, my standards. So certain things, we make, we make, you know, small teams make the decisions. Other things, we put up for a vote.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  It's just been in a few weeks experimentation in NFTs and DeFi in governance, in memes, in like the personalities of multiple people coming together all at once. It was a, this was gets used a lot flash mob token distribution. And, and I think we start like this, it was, it's a joke, right? Like this is a huge amount of money that now our market cap for silly memes. If you look at the surface, this is why I think it took so long for you to respond to my Telegram messages, Ryan. It looks like a joke on the surface. I would not fault you for thinking

• 40:23Speaker 02

  that it's a meme coin. First product, it looks like CryptoKitties for DeFi. I would not fault you for looking down on it. We missed a whole section there, the third pool, which is the Sven Pool. He's this amazing graphic or 3D fine artist that I, that I, that we found, who we got connected with. And he's doing more than just like caricatures of Twitter personalities. He's actually doing fine art, things that you might find on super rare or rarrable or sites

• 40:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  like that. Yeah. Meme'd itself into fine art. This is Sven right here. I think I'm sharing my screen. Artist Drop Zero. That's the next thing.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  This was another experimentation. Okay. So we, we kind of catered to the DeFi folks. What if we went after the NFT folks, the collectors, the art enthusiasts? So if you click on Explore, you'll see some of his stuff.

• 41:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wow.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  And these are all animated works. This, this is like legit people in this space are

• 41:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  I like this one.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  This. There's about a four, four million USD locked up at first, at first glance. And this is, there's, this is just another thing here where you're earning pineapple, pineapple points. Anyone now after, after a couple of days, they can go mint that first one.

• 41:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  By the way, Jordan, is there, is there a, is there a market for pineapples too?

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Not yet.

• 41:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Not yet. But there probably will be, or there could be, it's just New York C20 of some sort, right?

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Lots of ideas, it's not yet tokenized.

• 41:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  It's just kind of digits in a, in a smart contract.

• 41:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so if I want this bottom one of like a pineapple smashing into a wall, this, this gif, if I want that, then the way to get it right now is either someone mints it and I buy it on a secondary exchange like OpenSea, or I start staking my meme, collect enough pineapples, looks like I need 60 pineapples. That's gonna take a lot of meme, um, you know, in a while, so it, so it'd be like, you know, 60 days with one meme or something, right?

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  To get that, to, to, to get that, um, to farm 60 pineapples and then I could mint one and then I'd have it in my wallet. Is that right?

• 42:30Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah, once you hit 60 pineapples, you'd be able to claim. Now you're probably out of luck at the moment because people, because we did this like timed release on Twitter and we teased it and, um, people were lining up for this thing. So a bunch of people got in early, which means that they'll have more pineapples once, you know, once, once the time has elapsed.

• 42:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Um, and it's not. Oh, oh, wait, maybe I was missing, so why couldn't I enter now? It's because there's only a certain amount of.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  You totally could enter now, you, you totally could, I'm just saying, um, there's a lot of attention here to earn that, that, that they'll just earn faster because they started earlier.

• 43:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, the farm is saturated. The farm economics, just like other farms.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  And now it becomes this Nash equilibrium, or whatever you want to call it, where do I go mint like the lower rarity cards? Because I can lock that in, do I hold out and wait for this legendary or this one of 10 card?

• 43:29Speaker 02

  But if those all get bought up, if I'm not, if I don't happen to be like F5ing the site at the time I earn, I may miss out completely or if I don't pay enough gas. So I call it the pineapple dilemma, where you may need to just, just bank it, you know, cut your losses, go for the one in 100 instead of the one in one, one in 10. So it's, it's just fascinating, I, I can't wait for. More and more people to think to to realize what's going on here. Um, but again, after launching, stop, stop me if we're going too long because I could talk for hours on this. After launching this Fend stuff, some of the top uh NFT artists lined up, hit me directly like.

• 44:07David Hoffman?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  I I'm not gonna say names because I want to release those um, but some of the like the top five people on rareables in terms of sales. Like, hey, let's collab. Hey, let's do this.

• 44:18David Hoffman?

  They see this as distribution, basically, that you're giving.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Distribution, it's more than just. It's distribution, but it's also engagement.

• 44:27David Hoffman?

  Right, so so the the most fascinating thing about this is its bottom up nature, right? And like, Jordan, like tip of the hat for either like for accidentally or or on purpose, like creating a a literal meme token. And like, there there is, we we all know there's energy in memes, right? Like memes have been a thing for like a almost a decade now. And like now, on and and I'm sure that you are not, or many people are not the first people to try and like, hey, let's try and tokenize memes, right? Let's try and turn a meme into a token, right? Except that doesn't work from a top down perspective. Memes aren't top down, memes are bottom up, right? And so the only way that anyone could ever tokenize a meme is it is by accident, right? There's only because that is the meme.

• 45:12David Hoffman?

  The meme is that it accidentally tokenized itself. And now the meme token is this shelling point for this meme community. And so if you tell me that you have like the top five NFT like creators coming to say like, hey, let's collab, like I I want to get in on this. Like, that is the the best, most successful case study of like how this whole entire industry operates, right? It is a bottom up industry, it's by the people, for the people. And memes are something that we as a collective unconscious, like all organize and and uh, you know, adhere to. And so so, Jordan, like, congratulations on creating the shelling point of memes, like, that's just fantastic.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  I'm just a humble pineapple farmer.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  This is an amazing community, you guys really got to get in this community, look past the uh, the the craziness of the of the of the general gen pop Telegram group. Uh, this is, it's just an amazing confluence of skilled people that kind of came together and didn't sell right away when they totally should have, uh, stuck it out. Um, continuing to just.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  Just believe in this silliness, believe in each other. These devs are amazing. The artists are amazing. We haven't yet worked through the economics of how do we automate and like build into the contract payment, royalty payments to the artists, but that's coming soon. We're partnering with other, other brands, other protocols in this space that want to reward their users or engage or create their own branded NFTs. The, the, the long-term vision, and, and I, I think you'll identify with this, but the road to mass adoption in DeFi will be built on memes.

• 46:56David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  So this is how we bring in.

• 46:58David Hoffman?

  Community generated value.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  Bottom up. Yep.

• 47:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  We should, Jordan, we should maybe do something, talk about doing something with the, the bankless POAP token and memes. That would be a really interesting like cross-section, especially I, I feel like David and I, and maybe the bankless community just have to wrap our heads around what's going on with these NFTs, right? So we just did our first NFT podcast. We put it out. That made me more bullish. I think like David, I'm seeing not his head, yes, too.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Andrew was on your podcast. He's amazing.

• 47:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, he's amazing. That's coming out on Monday. And then honestly, I felt like kind of a boomer, like, like in trying to understand what was going on with memes.

• 47:42David Hoffman?

  Right. There's a comment in the YouTube saying, the guy with glasses looks like is talking like a boomer.

• 47:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, exactly. See, they can smell it.

• 47:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's just like, maybe, look, I'm, I'm millennial, but maybe just born too late. Maybe this is a zoomer thing. But after this, Jordan, you've given me hope. I feel like I understand what is going on with meme. So, you know, boomer no more. The glasses come off. I'm now, I'm now with it.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Can't see, but.

• 48:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  NFTs.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  See the future, but you can't see I R L. Um, that's uh, what, yeah, I mean, what you said is is spot on is like, it's funny, just the last couple of days, it's it's taken over crypto Twitter, right? Um, and you see certain people, even like hardcore Ethereum people, just like not see this. And I, a lot of people just bash on them. I'm trying to take the approach that like, hey, there's there's a tipping point for everybody. Not everyone got crypto right away. Not everyone got Bitcoin right away. Even those of us that are like waist deep in this thing, it took a couple of times, a couple of people telling us that this is a thing. You guys got to check it out. Once you get into the rabbit hole, though, like you realize it's more than just silly silliness, right?

• 48:55Speaker 02

  There's real value we saw with um, with Andre and tokenized insurance. Well, one of one of one new thing that we'll be announcing shortly is a pool, a brand new pool that allows you exclusive access to an online um, virtual summit, virtual blockchain summit that's coming up soon. So by by staking and then holding these N F Ts, you're able to, you have the utility of accessing V I P groups of attending certain closed uh, Zoom calls. So like this, it's, there's so many things that beyond this cute graphic, we can now tokenize and distribute and put on chain. All this, all sorts of activity and value.

• 49:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's, it's, it's super exciting, Jordan, and it's also like, it's also fun. That's what I love about it, right? It's just.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  It always comes back to the memes, man, like.

• 49:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Absolutely.

• 49:49David Hoffman?

  If it wasn't fun, there would be no value.

• 49:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's, it's fun. Well, guys, um, of course, none of this is investment advice, of course, but.

• 49:58David Hoffman?

  It says, don't buy.

• 50:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  We, look, yeah, exactly. Can't argue that. But, okay, so, but, but, um, if you're watching this video, we are so early in the N F T space as a subset of kind of everything that's going on with DeFi, right? Like, so I feel like N F Ts are almost what DeFi was in twenty nineteen or twenty eighteen. And it's going to use the DeFi rails to propel. itself. So anyway, it's super early. You haven't missed anything, but just start immersing yourself. I'm going to more in the in the NFT space. And I think bankless listeners will will find some opportunities there as we go. Jordan, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on, my friend. Thanks for educating us. I'm no longer a boomer when it comes to meme token. So mission accomplished.

• 50:45Speaker 02

  I did my job.

• 50:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  We appreciate it. Take care.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  Bye, guys.

• 50:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Take care.

• 50:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, guys. Well, that was that was fantastic.

• 50:54David Hoffman?

  Crazy.

• 50:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. What do you think, David? Do you get it now?

• 50:58David Hoffman?

  Maybe, maybe. I I I generally understand the pattern, but like, again, my fascination is just how it it organically just coalesced around itself, like no one person had any particular idea. Like, no one person could contribute anything. No one person had the plan. The plan, it felt like there's that old.

• 51:18David Hoffman?

  I can't remember the name of the the cartoon movie, but it's like of the Wallace and Gromit, where where Gromit, the dog, is on the little toy train. And he's laying the tracks as the train is going. That seems to be what what the meme culture is doing. They're just like, all right, so like, where where does this track?

• 51:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  What's next?

• 51:33David Hoffman?

  Like, like, let's keep on laying the tracks. We we don't know where it goes, but let's keep on laying tracks. And it turns out those tracks led to a $30 million market cap.

• 51:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Crazy, right? But also those tracks also like bootstrapped the entire thing. So it really was nothing in the in the very early stage, but the community made it something. And then actually created utility on the back of that. Now it's like, it's turned into like a meme production house. With actual NFT products that it sells. Bootstrapped from a tweet.

• 52:01David Hoffman?

  Came into existence. It memed itself into existence.

• 52:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Crazy. All right. Let's talk about something we do understand a bit more. It's the second topic today. And that's EIP 1559.

• 52:14David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we're going to totally get into the subject, but first we're going to talk.

• 52:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, thank you.

• 52:19David Hoffman?

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• 52:21Ryan Sean Adams?

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• 54:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, we're back. David, we're here to talk about EIP 1559, but we also have to address something that I think is closely related. And that's, are you feeling like the bear is still out there? Like in the rearview mirror? I mean, it still feels like we're in a bull market, but we can't shake the bear right now. What's your take?

• 54:27David Hoffman?

  It's like when you're trying to escape the black hole and you're like just on the cusp and you don't know if you're going forward or backwards. Feel like we're going forwards, but like you said, like the bear, the bear is in the rearview mirror, but he's still in the rearview mirror, right? He's still right there, right? And you know, as much as DeFi fun times is, as much as yield farming has been fantastic, the low liquid, low market cap DeFi tokens are not the market cap of Ether, right? And at some point, like we need the market cap of Ether to go up to validate the, the bull market, right? Like number needs to go up and it needs to be Ether and Bitcoin needs to help. Um, but uh, unless Ether can keep on like churning out the number go up, like, you know, that you can still see the bear market and it's still like right there.

• 55:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's the, that's the way I feel too. Like DeFi's had a fun summer, like a really good fun summer, but now it's time to get back to school. Right? And um, like now we're down 40% for the past 30 days on DeFi tokens. Uh, some people are saying like the bubble has popped, all of these things. I don't believe that for a second. I mean, I think we're still fundamentally in a bull run. These kind of pullbacks, these kind of drawbacks are totally normal. We, we see this in every single uh, bull market cycle. But at the same time, there is a point like, uh, with all of these DeFi tokens, including things like meme, it's all so far appealing mostly to people who are already here, right? It's kind of the, the DeFi crowd, the insiders, the people who stayed after 2018, 2019.

• 55:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's who's using these, um, like doing the farming and pursuing these assets and getting the, the uni drops. We still haven't found that fresh crop of mainstream users to come aboard yet. And I do think, um, the price of ETH somewhat reflects that too.

• 56:12David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 56:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  But like, I guess the question is David, what do you, what do you think? What's it going to take to, um, get that next crop of mainstream users? What's it going to take to get the next leg up on the price of ETH?

• 56:24David Hoffman?

  Right. Well, so we evaluate these DeFi tokens and the reason why we, why we think that they're valuable is because of their, uh, the cash flows, right? Like the protocols have cash flows, the tokens govern over the protocols, therefore the govern, the tokens govern over the cash flows, right? Uh, and the tokens give you upside access and the upside access, the upside exposure is because of the cash flows, cash flows, cash flows, cash flows. Have I said cash flows enough times? And so like, and this is what is missing with Ether. EIP 1559 is the cash flow mechanism towards Ether, right? And where is it?

• 57:00David Hoffman?

  Where is it?

• 57:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, okay, so what do you mean? What is that? For people who don't know,

• 57:04David Hoffman?

  Sure.

• 57:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  EIP 1559. What is it? And why does that provide some kind of cash flow? Or maybe a cash burn?

• 57:09David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 57:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  To ether the asset?

• 57:12David Hoffman?

  Right. And so, okay, so EIP 1559 changes the way that we pay gas on Ethereum, right? And so when you've been farming, you've been opening up MetaMask and you've inputted the gas number, you know, slow, medium, fast, or maybe you go to the advanced tab and put in the actual GUEI number, right? And, you know, that's inefficient, right? We know that these markets are like relatively inefficient. And people overpay for gas when they don't need to be. And a lot of people underpay for gas because we don't know what, how much gas to pay, right? Like, it's a constant auction.

• 57:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right, so like, I do that all the time, right? So I see like a GUEI price of 205. And I'm like, well, I want to make sure I get in, right? Because this transaction is super important, so I put 220.

• 57:51David Hoffman?

  Right. You bump it up.

• 57:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Instead.

• 57:53David Hoffman?

  But you didn't need to, because probably 180 could have done it. You and you didn't know. And neither did your wallet. Like, your wallet is just estimating the right gas to pay to, right? And so like, your wallet is kind of doing this estimation for you, and it could also be wrong. And the reason why this is so difficult is because like, each 12-second block is an auction, right? So every 12 seconds, there's an auction. And, you know, blocks have different things inside them that can make them more or less valuable, right? And so wallets have no way to predict this, right? And so what EIP 1559 does is it formally instantiates how much gas you need to pay to get into a block into the protocol, right? And so the Ethereum protocol will develop a number saying like, okay, you need to pay this much gas to get in the block. And then you pay that much gas, and then you get in the block.

• 58:38David Hoffman?

  And so like, there's no more auction anymore. And so this, this number is generated in a similar way to Bitcoin's difficulty adjustment, right? And so if, and, and so it uses a variable block size. And so if a lot of people pay the, the gas fee to get in the block, the block gets bigger. And then it targets a lower, smaller block size into the future to balance that out. And so a variable block size to accommodate for a variable load. And then as block size get too big, price of gas goes up until the block size comes down, right? And so that's how gas fees go up in the future.

• 59:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so what we get from that is more efficient, like, you know, I'm not overpaying for gas. Users are not overpaying for gas, so that's good, that's bullish.

• 59:22David Hoffman?

  And that will actually also make gas fees come down to a decent degree because like in these gas markets, like, there's been models that have estimated that we are overpaying for gas by about two thirds. Two thirds, and so like just as a more efficient mechanism, gas prices could come down by two thirds.

• 59:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Miners are getting wealthy.

• 59:39David Hoffman?

  Miners are getting wealthy.

• 59:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  For sure, because we are overpaying them, we don't need to be paying, we're just like over tipping, overpaying them.

• 59:45David Hoffman?

  Yep.

• 59:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so, but what about the, the part that you're saying, which like makes cash flows or cash burns? What, what were you talking about there?

• 59:53David Hoffman?

  Right, and so in the current form, we pay the gas fee and then it goes to the miners, right? And that's, that's their reward. In EIP 1559, the gas fee gets burnt, right? All, like, almost all of it, like 95, 97%. And the reason for that is to control for some game theoretic moves. If it went to the miner, then the miners could do things to congest the chain, so that everyone's paying more and they would, that's a rational thing for them to do, and then that wouldn't work. And so instead of paying the miners, we just burn it. We just burn it, no one gets it.

• 1:00:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Send it to Vitalik's address?

• 1:00:29David Hoffman?

  That's a good joke, good meme. And, and so, okay, so, so we delete it from the supply, right? And so, instead of paying the miners, what you're doing is you're paying everyone, basically. You're paying everyone an equal commensurate amount to their ETH holders. And when I say everyone, I mean all ETH holders, right? And so, this is reducing the supply of Ether.

• 1:00:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Because, essentially, you own a greater percentage as an ETH holder. You're, it's reverse dilution, so you own a greater percentage of the network when ETH is burnt.

• 1:01:00David Hoffman?

  Yes, yes. And so, yeah, sorry, accidentally hit the starting soon button, but now it's done.

• 1:01:07David Hoffman?

  And so, yeah, so, so every block, if, if we are paying like miners two ETH, three ETH, four ETH in fees per block, that means instead, per block, two, four, three, I don't know, Ether is getting burned per block, like it's getting deleted. And, and the way that we incentivize miners in Ethereum We have the social contract of issuance. So miners get paid regardless. They just don't also get the fee on top. Who gets the fee on top instead is all the remaining fee holders. So every single block, the demand for Ethereum block space is producing a basically an ETH buyback for ETH holders. Right? Like it's a buyback and burn program, right? It's like if Apple generated a bunch of money and they decided to buy back their shares and then the stock price goes up.

• 1:01:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Or even the Fed. Imagine if the Fed was like, hey, your taxes this year, because we've had this big inflation problem. When you pay your income taxes this year, we're just going to take that money and burn it.

• 1:01:59David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're going to remove it from circulation.

• 1:02:01David Hoffman?

  We're not going to reissue it.

• 1:02:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're not going to reissue it. That's supply going down. Okay.

• 1:02:05David Hoffman?

  And so then if that happens, you're like, hmm, I'm going to keep some more dollars in the bank account because I have more dollars proportionally.

• 1:02:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right. So you're you want then you want to hold dollars and then inflation could go down.

• 1:02:15David Hoffman?

  This is what deflation is.

• 1:02:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  By the way, the Fed will never do that. But that's what we could do with crypto economic systems. Okay. So so we've got that issuance, by the way, is about four and a half percent on Ethereum right now. So four and a half percent new supply gets issued every year. If EIP 1559 was active, we've, you know, done some analysis in bankless articles about this. But we could even get to like negative issuance, right?

• 1:02:39David Hoffman?

  Absolutely, especially with the demand like we've had.

• 1:02:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right. So that would mean that would mean like lower, like 1% issuance per year or possibly negative issuance. So it would be a big deal. So, okay, all of this sounds awesome. Improve usability, improve scarcity of ETH. Why don't we have it?

• 1:02:59David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's a really good question. And this is kind of why this is part of the state of the nation is because like from from my tentacles in Ethereum, like who I talk to, there's been some grumblings about like, all right, like, who has ownership over this project, right? Like who who is responsible for getting EIP 1559 out the door? And that's kind of like the problem. I don't really think that there is any one particular problem or one particular person that is responsible for getting EIP 1559 through, right? And so like, that's kind of the current state of the conversation is like, who's going to do it? Like who like the the core devs are like somehow in the in the most recent core dev meeting like Prague pow was a bigger

• 1:03:39David Hoffman?

  topic than EIP 1559 so you know the community doesn't like that community likes EIP 1559 they hate Prague pow but somehow like a decent amount of the core devs are still interested in Prague pow and not EIP 1559 right so this there's this friction between the core devs and what the community wants like Ethereum is a merit a meritocracy right and so the core devs have been there because they can they are stewards of Ethereum but that doesn't mean that they are in a completely in complete alignment with a community right we don't have the same priorities and so that's and when when the community gets frustrated they start to speak up right and so lately the community has been getting frustrated and they've been speaking up

• 1:04:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  this is DC investor speaking up it will take years before E2 will fully deliver the scalability we desire so we have to keep ETH one a top priority top priority according to DC is EIP 1559 when's it coming right Hsu as well a research analyst who's written a lot about EIP 1559 we've had him on bankless and he he's tweeting support for ETH how it for EIP 1559 how that will mean there's always utility to holding ETH you know I've tweeted about this you've tweeted about this it's really the conversation like if not having EIP 5 this is Harry Glenn not having EIP 1559 is

• 1:05:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  costing ETH holders millions per day and burning it really is

• 1:05:07David Hoffman?

  we're leaving money on the table

• 1:05:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  why are we not funding 10 teams to get this done ASAP

• 1:05:13David Hoffman?

  and it's a rational thing to do right this is kind of like a coordination failure of the Ethereum hive mind right like

• 1:05:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  okay well here's a core dev right here Justin Drake

• 1:05:21David Hoffman?

  alright

• 1:05:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  fee burning is tweeting supportive EIP 1559 he says fee burning would have burnt

• 1:05:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  half a million ETH over the past five days half a million ETH

• 1:05:32David Hoffman?

  yeah

• 1:05:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  that's you know half about half a percent of ETH supply over the past 50 days

• 1:05:37David Hoffman?

  right yeah

• 1:05:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  that's a core dev speaking about this

• 1:05:39David Hoffman?

  right and so and so yeah this is kind of kind of where we are

• 1:05:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so I guess one thing that's important to realize is when we talk about core devs, there are kind of two groups of core devs, right? There's sort of the core devs that are still maintaining ETH 1.0, and then there's the core devs that are pushing ETH 2.0 forward. Those seem to be in separate, like, separate tracks.

• 1:06:01David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  One is more conservative than the other.

• 1:06:04David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, naturally.

• 1:06:05David Hoffman?

  Yep.

• 1:06:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  But like, there's no, there seems to be, there doesn't seem to be a core contingent of ETH 1 core devs really pushing EIP 1559. And we've been talking about this for like 18 months to 24 months, right?

• 1:06:20David Hoffman?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:06:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so do you know what is going on? Like, do you have kind of a latest of what's being implemented? Because I read an AMA just late last week with some people who are working on 1559.

• 1:06:33David Hoffman?

  Yeah, and I don't want to suggest that like no one's working on it, or people are being lazy, right? There is work being done, right? And so like, the latest I've heard is that like, Dan Finley put out like a, an EIP for wallets, like in the Metamask category, right? Because, you know, wallets are going to have to like rebuild their product in order to fit this new, like, we're changing a very deep thing about the Ethereum protocol. So like, EIP 1559, it's not like this trivial thing. And so like, a lot of infrastructure will need to change. And so the latest I heard is that like, things like that are happening, and there's also a bunch of like testing and audits that need to happen. But that's kind of what I've been hearing for a while.

• 1:07:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so I think what we're gonna do at Bankless is dive more deeply into this. So Spencer Noon had a fantastic AMA on Telegram, just kind of a private AMA that he does on Telegram, with some people who are actually working on it. First of which is Tim Baker. Am I butchering his last name? Sorry, Tim, if I am. So Tim is a developer at Consensus, working on an ETH 1 client as well as an ETH 2 client. And he has been, I guess, kind of almost volunteering the role of central coordinator lately on EIP 1559. And Hsu and Georgios, this this other person in the AMA are like analyst contributors as well, kind of weighing in. And what I took from this AMA, we'll include in the show notes,

• 1:07:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  is I guess a couple of things. First, there is actual work being done on two clients. The first is the Bezu client, which is essentially the consensus ETH1 client. And the second is, oh, sorry, am I confusing that? Oh, yeah, no, the first is the Bezu client consensus client, Starbord says this. But the second is Geth and a team called Vulcanize, a development team called Vulcanize, is contracted to work on that. So that's the first thing. Actual implementation work is getting done in testnet on EIP 1559. In this AMA, when pressed for dates and timelines, Tim said, look, timelines are tricky. He's personally aiming for the fork after Berlin.

• 1:08:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  So right now, there is a, I'm not sure if Berlin is scheduled as a fork, but there are hard forks of Ethereum.

• 1:08:50David Hoffman?

  In February, question mark?

• 1:08:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, maybe February, right? So let's say that fork happens early next year. Tim says, well, then the one after that could be the EIP 1559.

• 1:09:03David Hoffman?

  You know, you're in Ethereum, Maxi, when you type in Berlin into Google and it auto-populates as Berlin hard fork.

• 1:09:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, that's hilarious. Also, Google knows a lot about you, David.

• 1:09:14David Hoffman?

  Oh, man.

• 1:09:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so, so, I mean, possibly that means next year, right? But, okay, I mean, it just, and anyway, the answers in the AMA were great. They also talked about how the question came up of how would this look in MetaMask, right? Is this going to totally change the user experience? Someone actually threw up screenshots of how this would look in MetaMask, which I think you're kind of great.

• 1:09:38David Hoffman?

  No, no hard time on Berlin hard fork.

• 1:09:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so we don't have time for that.

• 1:09:44David Hoffman?

  Oh wow, that is really cool. Yeah, so that graph that goes up and down, that's what I was talking about with like how EIP 1559 is similar to Bitcoin's difficulty adjustment. Like what you are seeing is a protocol.

• 1:09:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Block sizes.

• 1:09:56David Hoffman?

  The protocol knowing the demand for its block space, right? Like this is kind of what EIP 1559 does is like it informs Ethereum, the protocol of the demand for its block space, which is pretty cool in of itself.

• 1:10:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Exactly, exactly. So I think, you know, the message for wallets is you have to implement some things, but the user experience shouldn't really change. In fact, it should get easier if you're a user because you don't have to kind of guess what the price will be in sort of this auction and risk overpaying, which you're doing right now is essentially it'll be more like buying something on Amazon. Like here's the price, you pay it, maybe you'll, maybe you'll want to tip some to get it done faster, but that's it. Yeah, so the UX will be better. Anyway, there's a lot of wins here. This is the biggest change that's probably ever occurred to ETH 1.

• 1:10:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  And I think there does seem to be some momentum building for it, but just again, per these tweets, and I think some of the reaction on Twitter is just for the amount of value it provides to the ETH community and the ETH economy. It doesn't seem like it's weighted correctly.

• 1:11:00David Hoffman?

  Right, yes, yes. And also as a community, we are rationally incentivized to like fund this way more than we have been, right? Because like if you're an ETH bag holder, then you should be, it would be rational for you to like give up some of your ETH to fund the EIP 1559 so that the rest of your ETH is more valuable.

• 1:11:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Exactly, exactly. So I think it's going to happen, but you know, how long will it take is kind of the question? And I do think, by the way, this is implemented off the bat, is going to be implemented off the bat in ETH 2.0. So that's like the worst case fallback, right? For ETH economics, it will happen in ETH 2.0, it doesn't happen in ETH 1.0 already.

• 1:11:43David Hoffman?

  But that's in like two years, it happens. And then also it's, there's also sharding, right? And so there's more scale and so there's less burning. It would be nice to have it now, right?

• 1:11:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Totally nice to have it now.

• 1:11:55David Hoffman?

  Like let's, let's keep this bull market going. Like this is why we started off this conversation with like, you know, the bear is still in the rearview mirror. Like what is the thing that slays the bear? Like it's, what's our weapon? It's EIP 1559.

• 1:12:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, we asked that in the podcast, the NFT podcast that's coming out Monday, right? It's like we were talking to Andrea and Jake about ETH price predictions. They basically said, well, here are price predictions, right? And they were fairly conservative, but if EIP 1559 comes, then like, blow that out of the water, right? It's a catalyst for the bull. So anyway, I guess the message is it is being worked on, not as fast as we would like. It's still definitely an area that the bankless will continue to cover and wherever possible, lend support to the developers who are actually taking action on this. So we're going to have Tim on an AMA, an upcoming AMA, and get his take, have him give us an honest assessment of where EIP 1559 is

• 1:12:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  and where the bankless nation can help with that.

• 1:12:55David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I expect that to be a very popular AMA.

• 1:12:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so we just got to get Tim on. So he's writing a post this week and we'll get him on shortly after that. David, we've gone a little long on this as we are want to do, my friend, but we've got one last topic to cover and that is the Uniswap airdrop. Now, you wrote a great editorial on Monday of this week, talking about the, like the airdrop and comparing that to the Corona stimulus package.

• 1:13:23David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:13:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  The $1,200 each American received in airdropped money from the Fed for like Corona damages, I suppose.

• 1:13:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  And you compared the Uniswap airdrop to that. What was like, what was going through your head with that comparison? How are they similar?

• 1:13:39David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, so there is like this trifecta of things that are going on, right? Like there is universal support for universal basic income, right? Both inside like the United States and in greater in Europe as well. Like people like universal basic income for obvious reasons. Like, do you want free money? Like, yes, yes, I do. And so like that's, that's obvious. And the having it go from less like not being a known thing to being a very well, like a household named like, like phenomenon is that happens so quickly. Like the people of the world are hungry for a wealth distribution event, right? Like, and hopefully reoccurring. Right? And meanwhile, the conversation behind that is just the extreme discrepancy between like

• 1:14:24David Hoffman?

  the capital owning elite and the laborers of the world, right? Like I, in my political opinion, like it's not left and right. It's like it's it's capital versus versus labor. Like it's always been capital versus labor, right? And so what UBI is is saying like, hey, let's get the all the value, all the money that the capital is is sucking up. And like, let's redistribute it out to the people so that they can actually live their lives. And then end up, end up supporting like all the capital in the beginning, right? And so that's kind of like the conversation outside of crypto. And then, and then the Uniswap airdrop happens, right? And like in stark contrast to what is going on in the real world, in the DeFi world, in the crypto world, there is an intersection of capital and labor, right?

• 1:15:08David Hoffman?

  And that's what the Uniswap airdrop was, right? The uni token is a airdrop of a capital asset that was distributed to the people that provided labor to the protocol. Now, supplying liquidity to Uniswap doesn't feel like supplying labor, but that is what that niche is. Like if you supply liquidity, you are the laborer to the protocol, right? And so then you got this.

• 1:15:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  And even if you trade.

• 1:15:31David Hoffman?

  And you also got.

• 1:15:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Trading is labor too.

• 1:15:33David Hoffman?

  Right? And so like, this is like if Uber airdropped a bunch of equity to its Uber drivers, and then also a little bit of equity to Uber riders, right? And like, that is just like blurring the lines between capital and labor. And like, that's something that I feel really passionate about. And that's kind of how I think this world is going to like overcome this like, this very chaotic, very like class warfareish type times, right? We're going to, we're going to need to like reintegrate capital and labor together. And this is something that Chris Bernisky talks about a lot as well, who I also really respect. Uh, and so I, I think there's a theme going on here. And I think Uniswap is like kind of the first to really get this going.

• 1:16:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  And so this went to uni tokens went to about 180,000 180,000 users of the Uniswap protocol. So not, not an insignificant amount.

• 1:16:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hey, David, are you there?

• 1:16:30David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  I've lost you.

• 1:16:32David Hoffman?

  No, I still have you, but your video is off. I think your computer's a little sluggish and your video is off, but.

• 1:16:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, yeah, I think Zoom slowed me down. Alright, so yeah, so it went to 180,000 users of the Uniswap protocol, which is absolutely amazing. And it's not an insubstantial amount, right?

• 1:16:47David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:16:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  So you compare this to the stimulus package, it's about $1,200 at current uni uni prices, $1,200 to 180,000 potentially people. Of course, these are all accounts. So some people in more than one account. Not an insignificant amount and comparable to what the Americans received as part of the Corona stimulus package. So I mean, I guess pretty amazing from that perspective, but like, what did you do with yours, David? So there's this discussion question we threw out last week about, so should you hold your uni? Should you sell your uni or should you buy more? What, what side are you on there?

• 1:17:26David Hoffman?

  I'm on the hold. I have not bought anymore. I haven't sold any. I'm on the hold side.

• 1:17:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Why, why are you holding?

• 1:17:32David Hoffman?

  Well, the scream up to $8 was nice, but then it has fallen back down to like $4, $4 because we're in a little bit of, of a local bear, right? That's why it's what the topic of IP 1559 was about.

• 1:17:46David Hoffman?

  This is Uniswap, dude. This is like the most beloved protocol of all time with like the most insane amount of cash flows, with the most insane amount of token distributions, right? And so like, I'm holding, right? Like, why would I ever give up my, my ownership over Uniswap, right? That's, that's mine. I don't want to give that up. No way.

• 1:18:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  It does feel like Uniswap is a blue chip. And so if we're in a wider bull market, if you believe we are, then maybe not the time to sell your blue chips, but who knows? I mean, maybe something could happen from a macro perspective and turn us back into a full bear market. So I guess you're hedging your bets there.

• 1:18:21David Hoffman?

  I mean, when you, when a bunch of people just received like 12 $1,200 and actually now it's 1,400, uh, 1,600 dollars because Uniswap's trading around $4 now. So four times 400, like people could receive the minimum 1,600 dollars. Some people received way more.

• 1:18:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35David Hoffman?

  I feel like a lot of people were kind of quick to the trigger and to, to sell, right? Because, oh, free money, let me lock in my profits.

• 1:18:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  I kind of feel like that too, and I know, I know you've read this book, right? You remember that book, um, Red Notice?

• 1:18:46David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bill Browder.

• 1:18:47David Hoffman?

  Totally unrelated to crypto and DeFi, so if you're, if you're into that.

• 1:18:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  Totally unrelated.

• 1:18:51David Hoffman?

  But.

• 1:18:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. But, but, but here's how it is related. So, um, it talked a little bit, of course, not the only book to talk about this, but it talked about the, the privatization of former communist Russia companies, private companies. So like everything was state owned communist Russia in the early 1990s, like energy, gas, all the sectors. Every industry was state owned. What they did, this is very popular at the time, was they issued vouchers. These are actual like stock certificates to citizens and 98% of Russian citizens received vouchers. So they got airdropped essentially capital assets in the same way Uniswap is airdropping its capital asset.

• 1:19:29David Hoffman?

  So to double down on this, what the voucher enabled you to do, so Soviet Russia was going through its reorganization, right? Like it figured out communism wasn't going to work. And so it was going to hand over the basic, because the state owned everything, like every single thing, right? And it needed to turn it into companies so that the free market could take over. And they needed to figure out, how do we get all the state owned assets into the hands of the people, right? And so they gave people vouchers that would allow them to trade in for ownership over companies and businesses, right?

• 1:20:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  And so. They airdropped it.

• 1:20:01David Hoffman?

  They airdropped, they airdropped ownership, uh, like something that you could redeem to own part of Russia, right? And so it was, it was like very, it was, it was one of the maybe the most fair airdrops of all time. Except I think what we're about to get into is that at the end of the day, it wasn't that fair in result.

• 1:20:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so what happened, and this didn't take very long to happen, a period of like eighteen to twenty-four months to maximum three years, is most of the citizenry, the like the vast bulk of them were like poor, hungry, didn't understand fully what they received. And capitalists, the large capital pools came in and essentially bought them from the citizens at like super low prices, right?

• 1:20:44David Hoffman?

  They're like, hey, do you want, I like, do you want like a free weeks of pay? And people are like, is that what this is worth? Fuck yeah, give me a free weeks of pay.

• 1:20:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Exactly. Yeah, they had no idea what it was worth.

• 1:20:56David Hoffman?

  Right, remember, they had been in communism for the past forty years, like they were not educated about how capitalism works.

• 1:21:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right.

• 1:21:02David Hoffman?

  And so they were like, yeah, free, free, free meals? Fuck yeah.

• 1:21:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, popular airdrop, all the citizens received it, but then immediately just took a couple of years and it was consolidated back to these large capital pools. And the plutocracy reign that we've seen until today kind of, you know, kicked off at that point in time. So I, you know, again, this is a little different, of course. But part, but part of, part of me wonders if some of the Uniswap sellers, like I saw a lot of trades going through. And it would be like four hundred uni to a wallet that has just purchased, you know, ten thousand uni, right? With ETH, I'm like, okay, well, you know, some of these capital pools are taking big bets and these whales are taking big bets on uni at these prices. Uh, and expecting that to pay off.

• 1:21:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  So anyway, it reminded me a little bit of that, and it's also why airdrops are hard, but this is probably the most widely distributed in DeFi today. And one of the fairest launches I think we've seen as a result of that, so pretty cool stuff.

• 1:22:00David Hoffman?

  I, I think what is different about this one versus like the, the nineteen eighties or nineties reorganization of Russia is that it was airdropped to people that are like seeking profits, right? Like if you used Uniswap, you were trying to trade in for a profit, right? So like, you're probably a capitalist, you probably understand how these things work. So like on an educational level, way better off than like the average, like, I don't know, Russian surf or whatever.

• 1:22:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and for sure, because like using Uniswap prior to September 1st, 2020 took a little bit of Yeah. You had to know some things in DeFi in order to do that. So, but anyway, there's an element of that. Certainly an echo of that. David, I think that's kind of what we have time for today, man. This is the state of the nation. So it's certainly feeling very meme-y. But we don't think the bull run is over. So, you know, maybe don't, maybe don't rush to sell those DeFi tokens. That's what you're doing. But this is not financial advice. Definitely not. All this stuff is risky and we always, we always end with this. Eth is risky, so is crypto, so is DeFi. You can absolutely lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier.

• 1:23:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's not for everyone, but thanks for joining us on another episode. This is episode 15 of State of the Nation.