Why Men Don't Understand Women with Professor Chesko

This one may ruffle some (male) feathers, but that's par for the course with Professor Chesko – award-winning communications professor, podcaster, husband, father, and feminist. We talk with him about the manosphere and why men taking advice from other men is such a problem. We're chatting about why (some) men have it all wrong when it comes to women and money, men pursuing women when they don't actually understand or respect women, and men who only date super young women and why. Chesko tells us about his haters and why they call him a "pick me," but also how he's been able to have productive conversations with some of them in the DMs. We are also going off about all the ridiculous stuff that's considered "gay" in those toxic corners of the Internet, and then we break down some bad behaviors like ghosting, breadcrumbing, and other red flags. Before our guest joins us, Rayna shares two crazy things that happened to her before and on a flight, and Ashley's bachelorettes are beginning. Enjoy! Follow Professor Chesko on Instagram at @thespeechprof and listen to his podcast Mr. Pick Me and the Manhater. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Shopify: Go to https://shopify.com/gge and start building your own empire today. Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. Bilt: Get points by paying rent at https://joinbilt.com/GGE. Quince: Get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order at https://quince.com/GGE. Live Conscious: Get 15% off at https://liveconscious.com with code GGE. Liquid IV: Get 20% off your first order at https://liquidiv.com with code GGE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  It's getting to the point, I think social media is amplifying it so much, where the things that are not manly are absurd.

• 0:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back. Rainie, you've been living in your denim kool-aid. Every damn day.

• 0:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, you see them twice this week, but tell me the last time you saw them before this.

• 0:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  The week before that, twice.

• 0:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  You just can't stop, won't stop.

• 0:44Rayna Greenberg?

  I love it. I love them.

• 0:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  And a flip-flop, you did not use to show your toes. I mean, you're a new woman.

• 0:49Rayna Greenberg?

  She's a different girl these days.

• 0:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, a year ago even, if you would have been like, Rayna Greenberg, the next year this time.

• 0:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Thighs in, toes out.

• 0:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're gonna be in a knee-length denim short and a flip-flop, you would have been like, bitch, please.

• 1:02Rayna Greenberg?

  It's the summer of free the toe, okay? Toes are having a real summer.

• 1:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I-

• 1:07Rayna Greenberg?

  I was gonna ask you, you had a Band-Aid on your toe yesterday.

• 1:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, girl.

• 1:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, you didn't address it. Why was there a-

• 1:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  I cut my toe, I don't know how, in Denver, like, we were going to brunch, we had taken scooters there, I was wearing a sock and a sneaker, and I get, we went to Softe, and I, my sock, like, came off in my shoe, like, you know, like, slides down, the worst feeling in the world. So I sat down, I went to, like, take my shoe off and put my sock back on, slide it up over my heel, and I was, like, bleeding out in my-

• 1:34Rayna Greenberg?

  What?

• 1:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm, like, exaggerating, but, like, the toe of the sock was, like, soaked in blood.

• 1:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Which toe was it?

• 1:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  This toe. I'd somehow-

• 1:42Rayna Greenberg?

  The big toe. Is it possible that your little toe cut, your toe next to it, cut it? Your toenails aren't that long. You need a pedicure, but so do I.

• 1:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, Rainie, it's so bad, stop. We've been through this. It's not even a funny bit anymore, don't.

• 1:54Rayna Greenberg?

  They grow at different rates. Like, one of them looks like a French manicure.

• 1:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  You think these are all, haven't been snapped? I gotta be cutting them because they wouldn't give me, I wouldn't be able to fit my shoes.

• 2:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I have to cut my toenails so often. Like, I don't know what it is. Nothing on my body grows faster than my toenails.

• 2:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just, a gel pedicure, I mean, the polish lasts for three years. So it's like, I feel like, but I somehow, so somehow sliced my toe, didn't recognize it, put on shoe sock, took a scooter, went to brunch, bleeding out the whole time.

• 2:22Rayna Greenberg?

  You rolled in here with the brightest Band-Aid I've ever seen yesterday.

• 2:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  So anyway, guys, send me thoughts and prayers. Send me healing thoughts and prayers.

• 2:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but it's, it's summer, free the toes. Flip flops really had a-

• 2:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm really proud of you.

• 2:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you. I mean, I have ugly feet and it is the wor- it is my worst quality. Like my worst physical quality. Name a worst physical quality on me. You can't.

• 2:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, I think you're, everything is beautiful on you, but if I had to pick a thing, it is them.

• 2:49Rayna Greenberg?

  I've always said if a man can love my feet, that's how I know he loves me. If he's like, they're so cute, that's how I know he loves me.

• 2:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I've said this before, but you had an ex and he wanted to know what you should do for your birthday? And I told him to get you like a bagel spread and all this stuff. And I told him to come on your feet. I said, make her think you love her feet.

• 3:11Rayna Greenberg?

  And he decided to do none of it, didn't he? We went to dinner and he forgot his wallet. So I had to get the restaurant to comp the bill and come back.

• 3:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can we just talk about the whole forgetting of the wallet?

• 3:26Rayna Greenberg?

  When he forgot his wallet on my birthday, thank God we were at Ozatar in New York City, one of mine and Ashley's favorite restaurants. And we know the owner and he was gonna comp the check anyways, I guess. And I was just like-

• 3:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  I miss Ozatar.

• 3:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, me too. I was just like, you got out of this easy.

• 3:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  My fiance lost his wallet. It was, it ended up being at work, but he lost his wallet, which I had bought him, which was Goyard. So that was my main concern and I made that very clear.

• 3:55Rayna Greenberg?

  How do you know your close, you know your best friend's fiance's wallet brand?

• 3:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, because I had to go fucking wait in line. I had to sit in the car.

• 4:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was fucking on Rodeo waiting in the one in one out line and you were just watching me from your Jeep.

• 4:11Rayna Greenberg?

  That's crazy that anybody would know your partner's wallet brand.

• 4:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  But like, it's not, though. Like, you're my best friend and obviously you were like, what are you getting him for Christmas? And I was like, I'm fucking dropping a stack on this dumb little wallet.

• 4:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Right after Botox.

• 4:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  When he told me he like, lost his wallet again, it turned up. Like, I had to be like, do I stay true to myself and let him know the main concern is the wallet?

• 4:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Definitely. If I lost my wallet-

• 4:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  You can get a new license, you can get a new credit card.

• 4:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I'd be way more upset about the wallet.

• 4:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's not a passport, that would have trumped the wallet, but you can get new stuff. The wallet, you're not gonna get another one of those. I didn't insure this wallet.

• 4:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure.

• 4:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  I insured his wallet. But it was one night out, because he usually pays when we go out, it was one night out that I paid for everything. And it was just like, I was like, was this the plan?

• 5:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Was it the most expensive place?

• 5:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  He saved like 50 bucks. We went to like, a comedy show. Okay, let's talk about our partners and we'll get into it.

• 5:08Rayna Greenberg?

  All right. Thank you to Shopify. Go to Shopify.com/GGE and start building your own empire today. And Rocket Money, cancel your unwanted subscriptions at rocketmoney.com/GGE and Bilt. Get points by paying rent at joinbilt.com/GGE.

• 5:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Quince. Get free shipping and 365 day returns on your next order at quince.com/GGE. And Live Conscious, get 15% off at liveconscious.com with code GGE. And Liquid IV, get 20% off your first order at liquidiv.com with code GGE. Let's just do a quick update. So, last week, we talked about this DM we got from a listener about her fiancee going to Vegas. It was so unhinged. And as was ChatGPT's response to Reyna in her voice. And we talked about it with Ian Finance and it was hilarious. And if you missed it, definitely go back and listen. But just the TLDR is this woman found a message that her fiancee had sent to ChatGPT asking if he should not wear underwear

• 6:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  in Vegas, so when he's getting lap dances, he can bust quicker and save money.

• 6:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  ChatGPT broke down the math, but as we worked through it, the three of us, we were like, this probably was a joke. And it was probably like, you know, sometimes like in a group chat, like you'll write something like kind of snarky and you'll write it and then screenshot it and send it to your friend and not send it. You gotta be really careful. It's a risky move.

• 6:31Rayna Greenberg?

  It's the scariest moment of my day, but have you ever sent by accident?

• 6:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  I've never sent it by accident. I'm so careful when I do this, but like it's almost like he's did this to show his friends to be funny.

• 6:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, I like that call.

• 6:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So she did give us an update. I had asked, like, we want more details. And she said, she confronted him about it. She said, I don't know. He said it was a joke. In his defense, he didn't have any clean underwear in his drawer. So I don't know when he devised this joke or planned, but I went and got him some out of the dryer and he packed one pair for the weekend, the whole weekend. And then he was like, I'm not gonna need these because you know what I'm doing. I told him, ew, and that would, it would be, would be so uncomfortable. And I put more in his bag. I do think it was a joke. I hope I did not take it as a joke because that whole exchange earlier, the whole thing is so embarrassing. Oh, my God.

• 7:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Also, one pair of underwear like doesn't prove anything to me because men are just gross. And they would wear one pair of underwear all weekend. Like women are just, we're just here to like, make sure you guys like stay alive.

• 7:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And again, like, our whole thing is always like, is your relationship great and healthy outside of this one thing that embarrassed you, then great. But if it's bad and he lies to you and you feel like he's dishonest and you can't trust him, then don't marry him. So she can make that decision for herself.

• 7:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I think you're right. I asked ChatGPT some ridiculous stuff. There's all this stuff about like whether that's like shareable now, like whether your searches can be shared to Google and turning this toggle on and off. And I am still on the, on team, I don't, I don't, I don't ChatGPT any questions that I wouldn't mind having shared. We want to do like a whole AI episode about different things.

• 8:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I just assume anything you're typing or speaking or doing at all on any device is out there in the world. Obviously it is. The thoughts you have, you get served an ad about them moments later.

• 8:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Literally. You were telling me about this bra the other day.

• 8:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my god.

• 8:26Rayna Greenberg?

  For like smaller breasts and just verbally telling me about it. And I got an ad for it yesterday. And it's certainly not because they went through my camera roll and saw how big my boobs were. It's just.

• 8:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was telling you about it. Yeah. My ads are an attack.

• 8:40Rayna Greenberg?

  It's not all wedding stuff now?

• 8:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's mostly aging stuff. It's mostly like gray hair, crepey skin, saggy titties.

• 8:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I'm like, yup.

• 8:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Droopy knees?

• 8:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yup, yup, yup. I buy everything.

• 8:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Losing all your hair. Nipples point to the ground.

• 9:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Seriously? Yeah. So, they get me.

• 9:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  My explore page on Instagram, which not that I'm usually checking it for content, but like, you know, you hit your search, whatever. It was all wedding for so long. And it was just like a no, after I'd bought my dress. It was just all wedding dresses for a while. I had to try to like, clear that shit out.

• 9:20Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it takes a while because when I was furnishing my house, it was hundreds of ads for home furnishings and renovation companies, lighting. I mean, there's no end to the amount of shit they'll serve you. And it took me months to get my shit out.

• 9:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  To clear it out. Yeah. Like Instagram is so delayed. Like TikTok is immediate. TikTok is like, you search one thing, here's 20 videos. And we forget what you searched last week.

• 9:41Rayna Greenberg?

  You can't.

• 9:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're a different person.

• 9:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Break up TikTok. They're like, oh, you want one of these? Here's 19 of them.

• 9:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  TikTok is scary. Like, I don't look up anything. I don't want that to be my whole algorithm.

• 9:52Rayna Greenberg?

  It knows what I need, though. Sometimes I just need some mantras, like, don't text him, sis. And then I'll get like 15 of them.

• 9:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  True. Okay, just a quick life update. So I am in Charlotte in Atlanta this week, Thursday and Friday. They're both sold out. So sorry if you missed out. So I can't wait to see all you guys there. It's been so long since I've been to, since we've been to Charlotte.

• 10:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Since the Zone? No, we did one of the things.

• 10:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  We did the Fillmore a few times. It's been so long since we've been in it. Well, actually.

• 10:17Rayna Greenberg?

  The Zone lives in my heart.

• 10:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So I'm going to the Comedy Zone. And I actually love that club. And we first played Charlotte there. We had a blast.

• 10:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you remember that charcuterie board they gave us?

• 10:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, they go all out.

• 10:27Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it was not. It was these little pepperoni cups.

• 10:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  It fucking slapped, is what it.

• 10:33Rayna Greenberg?

  It was a silver serving tray that they put, they put plastic wrap over it.

• 10:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think about every day and I can't wait and they better have that for me. Like I was talking with another comic about the Comedy Zone, like they really treat you so well.

• 10:44Rayna Greenberg?

  I love the zone.

• 10:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, I'll be in Atlanta and then it is the first of my like bachelorettes. I say that in quotes, I just don't want them to all feel like bacheloretty and.

• 10:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I think you should lean in. I'm done with you not leaning in.

• 10:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Fine, this is my first bachelorette and this is with some of my Atlanta friends and my college girlfriends. So again, I just had to kind of divide up my friends and, because there's so many. And this will be like, you know, the southern, southern girlies.

• 11:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, you know, I like, you and I've talked about this recently, like having one huge bachelorette and a couple of small ones. And I like the idea that you have like a more focused group. Most people know each other, you like actually get to feel like you spent time with people. And listen, I know that everybody doesn't have an infinite amount of money and time to travel around. Like two bachelorettes is not like plausible for everybody, but like it's nice to have a more focused group. And I don't know, I just, I find it more enjoyable.

• 11:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, whatever you want to do is fine. If it's your dream to do a thing with 20 girls, fucking do it.

• 11:43Rayna Greenberg?

  I think most people do do that.

• 11:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like this like 10 ish, 12 is like, I'm tapping out. I can't, I don't want to run around with 15 girls. And my list of like people that I would invite to my bachelorette like was 30. So I was like, I kind of need to do two to three.

• 12:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Do I count as two people because I'm going to go to a few of them?

• 12:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 12:04Rayna Greenberg?

  But 30, am I like number like 29 and 30 or I'm one person?

• 12:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  30 and 31.

• 12:09Rayna Greenberg?

  It's hard to remember to count yourself into stuff.

• 12:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. I just kind of did this with my, my college girlfriends. It was like, I'm already going to be there, they're going to come to the show. And then we have a fun little weekend in Atlanta planned and I got this great house. And so that's going to be really fun. And then heading straight to Delaware after that. And I'll be there for the week and then another bachelorette next weekend.

• 12:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm so excited.

• 12:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're really doing it.

• 12:28Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm just like so excited for all the activities.

• 12:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  So we're going to do this game and we'll recap it after we do it. We're not going to give it away and also we don't know exactly what's going to happen. It is the thing I'm most excited about, even more than my special or my wedding, is this game we're going to play. Raina has been in, in charge of it. Like you've really been organizing it.

• 12:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, you decide how you want to do it.

• 12:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's an idea I came up with and we'll report back.

• 12:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm having a blast.

• 12:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  We should like livestream it.

• 12:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Some of the stuff is so crazy. Like, I don't know that our friends would want that getting, like, a lot of them are married.

• 13:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm kidding, of course not.

• 13:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't think they want that stuff getting out there.

• 13:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, no, no.

• 13:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I am particularly impressed by the married ones. And just so you, I guess, I thought that I was gonna be like, I'm gonna blow all you bitches out of the water. All you girls have been married all these years.

• 13:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I'm a slut. Okay, so we're teasing it too much, but we'll talk about it 100% after.

• 13:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I can't wait.

• 13:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  In a couple of weeks. Okay, so Raina, you have a story.

• 13:24Rayna Greenberg?

  So we were in Denver this weekend, which was so fun, me and Andrew Collin. Andrew and I opened for you at your shows at Denver Comedy Works.

• 13:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Unreal.

• 13:30Rayna Greenberg?

  It just was so much fun.

• 13:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  That room. It's the best and loudest comedy club. It takes you by surprise. Like, there was one show, I think it was Friday, when I came out and it was so loud, it like jolted me. Like, every show was amazing, but.

• 13:45Rayna Greenberg?

  It has you up there, me specifically, being like, am I the funniest person that's ever been alive?

• 13:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, if you bomb there, you have to quit comedy.

• 13:52Rayna Greenberg?

  It's like.

• 13:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  You cannot, it's just, that's the rule.

• 13:56Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it's like a single cute guy coming to one of our live shows and not getting laid.

• 14:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, you should quit trying to get pussy. If you can't get laid at a girl's gotta eat show, but yeah, it's, I mean, I think that we all did an amazing job, obviously.

• 14:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course, yeah, you absolutely crushed.

• 14:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Thanks.

• 14:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you had such a fun set and it just got better every time and we had four shows. And so it was just like so much fun to see you up there and really like work the crowd and get into your little crowd work things.

• 14:24Rayna Greenberg?

  It's really fun. I think people are surprised by it and I have to have self-talk because people were like, oh my, somebody sent me this message. It was like, maybe you have like a side gig. It's like Ashley's opener. And I was like, do you guys understand I've done hundreds of live shows? Each one of them for like two hours. I write a set, we improvise.

• 14:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 14:39Rayna Greenberg?

  People come on and off the stage. I think stand-up is very hard and it's his own skill. And I don't do like an hour of stand-up comedy like you, but I'm a performer and have been for seven years. It would be crazy if I couldn't do this.

• 14:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I know. Like, I always, people understand the difference. But there is a little part of me that's insulted on your behalf when they're like, Raina, you should do comedy. And it's like, she's been doing comedy. And it is different to go up there with your podcast co-host. And it's different for me in terms of the way I feel about it and even prep for it. But it still is just like, yeah, you have been speaking onstage, telling stories, writing punchlines and jokes for a long time.

• 15:20Rayna Greenberg?

  People don't see it as that. And I understand that. And yes, if you want to get technical about it, but I'm really proud of it.

• 15:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 15:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I would love to do more of it. And I think it was just like, really fun.

• 15:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, okay.

• 15:29Rayna Greenberg?

  And you were great.

• 15:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  You did amazing. So did Andrew. He crushed. But, okay, you have the story.

• 15:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, so you know, we love like airport and airplane stories. So I have one airport, one airplane story. Something happened with the airport that has never happened in my entire life. I don't even believe this is like a thing. So Andrew and I-

• 15:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Obviously, it would happen at Denver.

• 15:45Rayna Greenberg?

  At that fucking airport.

• 15:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, Denver Airport. It's like Illuminati, the horse, the whole thing.

• 15:50Rayna Greenberg?

  We looked it up. I think it is the busiest airport in the country, more than Atlanta. I thought Atlanta might be biggest, but like more people go through Denver every day.

• 15:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  I actually wanted to look that up, too. Okay.

• 16:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Andrew and I, just to like paint the picture, the lines were so long. You go round and round and round for so long, and they split you into 16 sub-lines at the end of that line.

• 16:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  We didn't have any lines.

• 16:11Rayna Greenberg?

  You didn't?

• 16:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  What did you fly back on?

• 16:13Rayna Greenberg?

  We flew on United.

• 16:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  You did?

• 16:14Rayna Greenberg?

  And it was 6 o'clock in the morning. I couldn't believe how long these lines. And it didn't take super, super long, but it's the, it's your volume-

• 16:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  We didn't see that at all. But we had a weird 3:30 is a weird time. Anyway.

• 16:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I didn't think 6 o'clock in the morning would be that busy.

• 16:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 16:28Rayna Greenberg?

  It was really busy. So just so you understand how busy it was. So I brought a carry-on. All I had in the carry-on was like three pairs of jeans, two t-shirts. I had a makeup bag, a toiletries bag, which is not my normal toiletries bag, not that much in it. It was just, I was taking one shower. I was doing one hair shower.

• 16:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 16:43Rayna Greenberg?

  And then I had my skincare. So not that much stuff. And all of them are under 3 and 1/2 ounces or 4.2, whatever the fuck it is. Everything was under that. So we get to the front and they flagged my bag and they pulled it. And the guy opens and he goes, oh, it's a lot of toiletries. And I was like, yeah, everything is around 2 ounces or less. And he was like, it's the volume of toiletries you have. And I was like, what? And he goes, "One liter per person." And I go, "Liter? How do you know? Are you eyeballing a liter?"

• 17:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, are you doing the math?

• 17:16Rayna Greenberg?

  And he's like, "It's too much stuff." So I take my makeup bag out and I put it in my purse and I go, "How about, is this okay?" And he goes, "Makeup counts. It's one liter per person. Makeup counts."

• 17:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is not-

• 17:27Rayna Greenberg?

  My eyeliner pencil counts. So I was like, "What?" So I'm with Andrew, I was like, "Well, can my, can my friend take some of this?" And then it's dibbied up and he goes, "Now I know you're a couple and it's one liter per couple."

• 17:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, we didn't, that's not real.

• 17:41Rayna Greenberg?

  And I go, "This is not a thing." And by the way, I flew here on this airline with the exact same amount of stuff. So-

• 17:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, that's irrelevant. The amount of stuff I fly, I mean, you and I travel for a living. Like, I have never been, early days, put it in a bag, this and that, whatever. Like, I travel with tons of toiletry, tons. Tons! I have a huge, like, bag full of it. They're all the right size, but tons.

• 18:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I went around Europe with twice this amount of stuff.

• 18:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it's never been flagged in how many years?

• 18:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I, I looked at the guy, I go, "I've-"

• 18:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  20 years?

• 18:17Rayna Greenberg?

  I go, "I've been to a hundred-plus airports. I have never heard this before." And he, it's one of those, I look at Andrew, this is so rare that I'm actually at a loss. I look at Andrew, I go, "What do I do?" And the guy was like, "You can go back out and go through security and check your bag." And I was like, "So we can get on the plane, it just can't get on with me?" And he was like, "That's the rules, ma'am. What do you want to do?" And I, I'm like so mad, I'm like getting so hot in my body and like-

• 18:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Was he telling you to like throw some stuff out?

• 18:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, he goes, "So just throw some stuff out." So I'm like, "Okay."

• 18:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  But how do you know it's over? Like, Andrew goes, "What, you're just gonna eyeball it? You know how much a liter is." So I go, "Okay, you throw my shampoo, my lotion, my body wash, my conditioner, all that, throw that out." Here's the thing, though, like, so let's just picture a liter. A two-liter is a giant thing of Coke from when we were kids. A liter, a half of that, I know for certain all your stuff would have filled half of a two-liter bottle. Like, with room to spare. I know all your stuff was under a liter. And now that I know that that's the limit, I know my stuff is always under a liter. That's a ton of liquid.

• 19:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I've just, I've never heard of this before. And so he, he turns around, I take the makeup bag and I slip it in my purse. And he just forgets that this exists.

• 19:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh shit.

• 19:26Rayna Greenberg?

  So I start pulling stuff out, my pills, my razor. He's like, "These aren't liquids, it doesn't count." I'm like- What do you want me to do, brother? And he's like, if you could fit all of your liquids from this one bag into the main bag, then you can go through with it.

• 19:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's not even, that doesn't make any sense.

• 19:39Rayna Greenberg?

  I was like, it's still the same amount of stuff. What are you saying to me? I was like panicking. I was gonna miss this flight. I was so fucking tired. I'd slept for like four and a half hours.

• 19:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my god, right.

• 19:47Rayna Greenberg?

  But he did like let me through. He forgot about the makeup. I've never heard of this in my entire life.

• 19:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  I guess there is technically that limit, but when I really think about how much a liter is, it's significant. You'd have to have a full suitcase full of liquids. I used to like split up my two, like my makeup bag with my other toiletries bag and like my carry on and my roller, just in case. And then I stopped doing it because I've never once been questioned about this.

• 20:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Never. I mean, you and I have traveled a lot, more than most people. I've never heard of such things.

• 20:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  There did used to be those rules and they wanted you to have, some early days it would like take it out, put it in a freezer Ziploc bag. That hasn't been a thing in so long.

• 20:24Rayna Greenberg?

  I know, it was crazy. And the airport is like the one place I won't like pitch a fight because it's like, what are you gonna do?

• 20:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, they'll just put you in like detainment.

• 20:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I mean, it's the peak of like, follow the rules and fly, or don't follow them, just let me know what you're gonna do.

• 20:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. Yeah. Didn't you hear someone say that?

• 20:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. She said, follow the rules and get on this flight, or don't follow them and don't fly. You just let me know what you're gonna do. And I was like, that's how the airport is.

• 20:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my god.

• 20:48Rayna Greenberg?

  So I did get on the flight and then I had this interesting experience. I just wondered like what you thought about it. So this woman, I'm sitting next to her and I'm trying to get my bag up and I put my smaller bag down and she was like, oh, do you want me to put it on your seat? And I was like, sure. It's nice. She's maybe a little bit older than us. And I sit down, I notice she has just like all the things. She has like a neck pillow, headphones, a fan. She's sanitizing everything around her. She's just really engaged with the community around her. She looks at her friend, she's like, I have compression socks if you need any. The girl's like, I'm fine. And I don't know, she's just like fussy with everything. And I'm like falling asleep, I'm in a tank top, I'm freezing. I actually meant to buy a sweatshirt, but didn't have time.

• 21:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  So you gotta bring that blanket scarf. You always make fun of me. You gotta bring your shawl.

• 21:28Rayna Greenberg?

  I was like, I really wish I had.

• 21:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  I travel with a blanket scarf and a shawl.

• 21:32Rayna Greenberg?

  When you put it on, I didn't even laugh at you out loud. I like laughed across the aisle when I saw you put on your little blanket.

• 21:40Rayna Greenberg?

  But I put on, I was wearing a tank top. I meant to buy a sweatshirt, but I didn't have time. So I was like actually freezing and I was like trying to go to sleep. And as I'm like falling asleep, they came by with these like cinnamon buns, which were gross. And I hear her say, I hear the girl next to me say to the flight attendant, she's sleeping, but give me an extra one for her. So that when she wakes up. And I was like,

• 21:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so cute. Wait, how old was this woman?

• 22:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe 45.

• 22:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, it's like a mom.

• 22:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it was, it was mom vibes. And then I'm half awake. I open my eyes and I look at it and she goes, I noticed you're shivering. And she goes, they have blankets in the cabin. And she flags the first.

• 22:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Could she come on the road with us? Is this our tour manager?

• 22:20Rayna Greenberg?

  It was, she flags the flight attendant down. And I go, thank you so much. Like, I'll handle this. And she goes, excuse me, I saw the blankets. Can you give her one? I put the blanket on. I was so comfy cozy. I went right to sleep.

• 22:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm glad to know blankets are back and they don't always have them. They got rid of the blankets during COVID and like it's a toss up whether they'll have them or not.

• 22:39Rayna Greenberg?

  United did not have screens, but they had blankets.

• 22:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  New United plane, we flew back.

• 22:43Rayna Greenberg?

  We flew back on a new one. Yeah.

• 22:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, the screen was big. It was nice. Yeah. Yeah. I had a good United experience. I hate to say it. I went in the new lounge, paid for it. I was like, I gotta see that lounge. Cause I'd seen a Tik Tok about it. I was like, I gotta get that lounge. We paid for it.

• 22:58Rayna Greenberg?

  But I just, it was so nice. And my first, when she asked the lady for the food, I was like, this is, my first initial reaction was like, mind your own business about like what I'm doing. And she gave me the blanket, the blanket thing too. I was sort of like,

• 23:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Really?

• 23:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Why is she involved with like, what's going on with my body? And then, then I was like, this is the nicest person and so unlike me.

• 23:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel like it's, it's the New Yorker in me. That's like, mind your own business about someone else's body, what they're doing. Like I would never, you're right. It's very motherly. Like I would never try to like parent another adult. It's none of my business. If they're cold, they'll flag somebody. But like, I had such a nice experience on this plane because of her. It was thoughtful. Like doesn't even cover it.

• 23:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. It is, you know, I'm thinking of someone like my sister in law who would think all those things. I'd wonder if she would act on them. I know for certain that Stephanie would be like, ah, that might. The passenger next to me is sleeping. Maybe she'll want to sim and roll. Oh, she looks cold. Like her, that's her natural instinct. I'm curious if she would actually act on it. That's an interesting choice. I'm wondering what that woman is like in real life. Like, I'm wondering if it's like, everyone loves her. She's the mom of the group. She's always got everyone covered. Or everyone is like, Carol is so annoying.

• 24:09Rayna Greenberg?

  So much. When she like yelled across at her friend, like, I brought extra compression socks. That girl just kind of rolled her eyes. She was like, I've had enough of this. She's like, Carol, get out of here. Shut the fuck up. I do think it's, it's a lot.

• 24:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 24:22Rayna Greenberg?

  But you're right. Somebody who is that thoughtful, those personality traits don't marry together. Somebody who's gonna like be, it's not like type A. It's just, it's really assertive to flag the flight attendant down for a blanket.

• 24:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 24:35Rayna Greenberg?

  For a stranger.

• 24:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, that is crazy that that happened on, on the flight. You need to write a letter to Kristi Noem and tell her. Be like, ma'am, I thought we were done with this.

• 24:43Rayna Greenberg?

  I thought we were done with shoes. Like, I thought we were all just like together. Yes.

• 24:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, speaking of liquids, Liquid IV, you guys.

• 24:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Liquid IV doesn't count in your liquids, just so you guys know.

• 24:56Rayna Greenberg?

  It doesn't count. But eyeliner counts.

• 25:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Because it can be liquefied.

• 25:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Seriously?

• 25:03Rayna Greenberg?

  He said makeup counts. I was like, you motherfucker.

• 25:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Then do not quote me on Liquid IV. Counting. Some TSA agent would be like, it says liquid right on it.

• 25:11Rayna Greenberg?

  If you like.

• 25:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Open it up.

• 25:12Rayna Greenberg?

  You have to add the liquid.

• 25:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, we just love Liquid IV and this show is sponsored by Liquid IV. We have loved it for years. I am a little under the weather right now. I am just kind of rundown from the travel and, you know, being on planes with people who don't cover their mouth when they cough, which is just such a treat. And I just, I took a Liquid IV this morning. Really, I'm going to be taking one daily for the foreseeable future, just to make sure I get those electrolytes. And we're just such fans. And if you guys don't know, it's just this packet. You rip it open, you dump it into 16 ounces of water. I really like ice cold water and it's going to hydrate you better than water alone. Great for summer, great for anytime. I'm going to put these in my little welcome bags for my wedding, of course. We've talked about that numerous times. You guys can visit liquidiv.com and use code

• 25:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  A checkout for 20% off your first order. Such fans of this. I love the lemon lime flavor. One of their new flavors that we're loving is the orange vanilla dream. It reminds me kind of that like creamsicle summer treat. Yeah, so we love that. And again, this is going to keep you hydrated in the heat. Fuel up for sports workouts or for next day recovery. It's powered by live hydro science and optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink. Eight essential vitamins and nutrients, always non-GMO, vegan, gluten free, dairy free and soy free. So you guys can savor the last bits of summer with Liquid IV. Tear, pour, live more. Go to liquidiv.com and get 20% off your first order with code GGE at checkout.

• 26:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's 20% off your first order with code GGE at liquidiv.com.

• 26:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, and a lot of people are not aware of how much they spend each month and all the subscriptions they pay for. I sign up for so many subscriptions because when we do the snack, I have to be able to read so many different articles. So I have subscribed to like a million publications. And I honestly forget. So Rocket Money is what helps me. And Rocket Money is a finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. The interface is really easy, clean, nice to use. They show you all your spending in one place. They can help find unwanted subscriptions and cancel them for you. They can even help try to negotiate lower bills for you. And the dashboard just kind of lays out your total financial picture. So you know what you're spending, when your bills are due. And I think a lot of people, this is really what stops them from writing a budget, is that you don't really understand the whole financial picture.

• 27:33Rayna Greenberg?

  So I love this app. I think it's fantastic and really easy to use. Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, with members saving up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com/GGE today. That's rocketmoney.com/GGE. Rocketmoney.com/GGE.

• 27:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and I am telling you about Quince. Okay, so I just got these new pants from Quince. I am buying a lot of white lately, a lot of events that I'm gonna try to wear white. I got these Bella Stretch Wide Leg Jeans. I had not done denim from Quince.

• 28:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh.

• 28:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  I've done everything else. I do like dresses and skirts and sweaters and shoes and bags. And so I just love these and they just are so comfy. Fifty bucks.

• 28:23Rayna Greenberg?

  That's crazy. Their prices are crazy for the quality.

• 28:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So summer is winding down and you guys want to refresh your wardrobe. Fall, love fall fashion, living for it. So you're gonna get cashmere cotton sweaters starting at just forty dollars, washable silk tops. And of course skirts and dresses. We love their washable silk. You truly just like put it in the washing machine and I hang dry it. And their classic denim pants and everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. They work directly with top artisans and cut out the middleman to give you the luxury without the markup. And they only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. So we're just loving everything. I mean, you can just get anything there. I mean, they have bedding, they have luggage. I mean, the jewelry is great, but like I love my cross body bag. I've been carrying around all summer long.

• 29:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  You have like those white sneakers that are so great and just all the clothes, of course, we're such fans. And again, the affordability, it just, again, it surprises us years later. We've been shopping this brand and you're always just like, I can't believe that something this quality, again, cashmere silk, premium denim is so affordable. So you can elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with Quince. Go to quince.com/gge for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash G G to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash G G E. And let's get into it.

• 29:42Rayna Greenberg?

  All right, guys, we are very excited to welcome our guest today. He is an award-winning communication studies professor. He co-hosts the podcast Mr. Pick Me and the Man Hater, which offers comedic and insightful commentary on internet culture and dating dynamics. He's amassed over two and a half million followers under his handle. The speech prop analyzing topics like masculinity, emotional intelligence and modern relationships. In 2025, he was honored with the educator of the year award at the Cheer Chorus Awards, recognized for his impactful work both in the classroom and online. Please welcome to the show Professor Chesko.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Hello.

• 30:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Hello. Hi.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  Hi, happy to be here.

• 30:16Rayna Greenberg?

  We're so happy to have you. We've been having so much fun with you already.

• 30:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  We call you Prof.

• 30:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Prof, Prof C?

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Prof, no, don't do that.

• 30:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, things like that, don't do that. No, Chesko, we love it.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Chesko's fine. Most people know me as Chesko.

• 30:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 30:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  You told us your name, we won't announce it, but we're in the, we're in the circle.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Right, yeah, you are in the inner circle.

• 30:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, subscribe to the Patreon.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  And about 10,000 of my students.

• 30:37Rayna Greenberg?

  And your wife, and that's it, in the trust tree.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  My kids don't even know.

• 30:42Rayna Greenberg?

  That's such a funny concept to me. Like, when do you let your children know that you have a name?

• 30:45Speaker 00

  They still have trouble with it. You know, my oldest is 10 and they still, he's like, no.

• 30:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  They know that my real name is that, but they don't like it.

• 30:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Just dad, that's the.

• 30:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, like rappers, and like, when do they tell their kids?

• 30:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, like, that's not my name. Okay, so yeah, so you're a husband, a father of three?

• 31:03Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  A feminist?

• 31:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Have you kind of been like this your whole life? We'll talk about it. What you stand for and what you speak about, and has it been like a lifelong journey?

• 31:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I was raised by a single mom and my grandmother, and they always, my mom is like this old 70s San Francisco hippie. And she always taught me, if you see something wrong in the world, say something about it. And so I, you know, I've always been into it. I ran for prom queen in high school because, so it was very misguided, but I was like, we were breaking the gender norms that anybody could, as a 17-year-old, thinking I was doing this groundbreaking thing.

• 31:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did you win?

• 31:38Speaker 00

  I, well, that's, it was a long story. We, it was a short story, yes, but I didn't get the award because

• 31:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  You were wrong.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  The people behind it did not think a guy should get the prom queen award.

• 31:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I can see.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Now in hindsight, I'm like, yeah, it was very special to the person that got it.

• 31:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Tiffany and Jessica and those girls were upset, yeah. But I get like the point of the gender roles, but it's people are like, you're taking something away from women.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 32:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  We don't need this man.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Misguided as this young guy. Then I went to college and I took a class in feminist rhetoric, which was, you know, just learning about feminist theory and all that goes into that. And it just kind of made sense, everything that talked about the structural systems in our society, about oppression, about intersectional, about how race and class and gender and all these things play into it. Ended up getting a degree in gender and communication. As I joined a speech and debate team, I got a full ride to grad school where I studied feminist rhetoric again, and where I wrote about hate crimes in World of Warcraft, which is a whole

• 32:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like the video game?

• 32:35Speaker 00

  The video game World of Warcraft. And so it was, it actually has a lot more to do with social media now than at the time, it was an excuse to play video games and get a degree out of it.

• 32:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 00

  But it was just talking about structural systems of oppression and how they function in virtual worlds, which is absolutely applicable to how it functions in social media and how it functions online nowadays. But at the time, it was like, okay, that's fine.

• 32:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'll play video games for work. I mean, I often think about video games and how like violent and even the show we were watching, we love it, but the video game they play is like Watch out. overcompensating. They're like killing hookers. Have you watched their show?

• 33:12Speaker 00

  No.

• 33:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  And the show is very evolved. I mean, it's like, it's with Benito Skinner and he's this, he was in the closet and it's about his journey going to college and it's, it's very, it's progressive and evolved, but they still play a video game where they're like killing hookers.

• 33:25Speaker 00

  But even along those lines, that was what I talked about. Now, we weren't even going to talk about this, but my thesis was about how when people are behind a mask of the internet, when people have this online presence, they do and say really horrific things and they write it off as, oh, that wasn't me. That's just online.

• 33:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  That was a character.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  That was a character.

• 33:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, okay.

• 33:41Speaker 00

  And you see this in the comment sections. They'll say the really horrific things and when they're called out on it, well, I didn't know you'd see that.

• 33:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, we could talk about this forever. Like, it's, it's really crazy. Why did you think that?

• 33:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, like, it's, it's public. It's so crazy to me, the difference between like a troll account, like, and a real person who's using their, that's high level. Your real name, sometimes you're public. Yeah, you meant that.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Do you all post your podcasts on Facebook? Facebook blows my mind because that's, they'll have their face, their business.

• 34:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  There are family members linked to it and they'll say the most horrific things. And then, why would you do that? Like, there's no, there's no sense to it and they have no regret about it either.

• 34:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  The thing that I find so fascinating is like, we're really lucky. We don't get like a lot of hate online, but

• 34:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Once in a blue moon, I'll clap back at somebody and I'll get a DM from them apologizing. Like they, they were like, I didn't, some girl told me I dressed bad and I was like, who the fuck asked you? And then she DM'd me and apologized and was like, I was in a really bad place. I'm really, I shouldn't have done that. I'm like, you didn't even mean it and you still felt the need to write that. My outfit was not good that day.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  I'm sure it was great. But speaking about DMs though, that's actually where I think a lot of the, the most impactful work I do goes on that nobody sees. I get, cause I'll get a hateful DM from, I get a lot of them, uh, from guys that are upset about something I talked about. They'll, they'll call me some sort of name and my usual response and above, I used to just block them. But then I got interested and bored one day and I was like, why, what did I say that made you so upset? And they're like, well, your video. I'm like, well, what specifically did I say? And they're like, well, you hate men. I'm like, I, this is gonna blow your, I am a man, right? I'm, I'm also a father of a son.

• 35:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, right. I've been raising men.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, I, I don't, I don't hate men. I think the stuff I talk about harms men and women. But when you speak up about anything about misogyny or about the patriarchy, God forbid you say that word. Uh, or anything that involves something that men are doing, then you, the assumption is you must hate all men because it didn't say not all men.

• 35:47Rayna Greenberg?

  So to give an example of like your content, that Ashley and I really love your content. A lot of it is about like, I, I was particularly attracted to this clip that you had where some guy was talking about what it is to be like an alpha man and giving advice to other men. And you did a voiceover talking about like, well, why would men take advice from this person rather than women? And I think that some people watch that and they think that you are criticizing all men, but you're literally, you're just criticizing the tone of that type of man. And what they hear is that you hate all men, which I find interesting.

• 36:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  But you just want men to be better.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know. I mean, I talk about, it's not the exact comparison, but we talk about this sometimes with white women. There's a lot of white women giving us a bad name, you know, the, their beliefs and their values and the way they vote. And it's just like, I, I, we'd like them to be better. We can be angry and talk in a certain way, but like ultimately you want to kind of.

• 36:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Be a little more gentle and hopefully convince people and like have them get curious about their own way of thinking and hopefully like change for the better. That's what I hope.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  And that's exactly it. And they'll, they'll get mad at me. Well, why aren't you calling out women? I'm like, well, I'm a man. Right? I have this sort of experience. I went through what these guys are going through. Like, all the advice they're giving out isn't new.

• 36:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  Right? This was the same advice I received over 20 years ago from the pickup artist scene. And all these guys, oh, you gotta do this X, Y, and Z. It's just repackaged. It's just the exact same thing. And they, they listen to these guys, taking it to your question, because it's easy. It's an easy answer to a complex situation.

• 37:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Yep.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  Right? Instead of accepting that women are complex individuals with different likes, different turn-ons, different aspirations. They wanna know, okay, all women are one thing, one object, that if I do this one thing, or these three things, whatever it is, then, then that's how I'll get into a relationship.

• 37:34Rayna Greenberg?

  That's really interesting. I never really thought about it. This alpha male advice, it is giving you advice on how to date one very specific type of woman that wants that very specific type of man. And I don't, the, the toxic alpha male, I don't want that. Nothing is attractive less to me. And why would we take advice on this for a one size? It's like a one person.

• 37:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I love what you said about it's just easy. I mean, masculinity is complex. Dating is complex. And so that's why I love people like you or Dr. Terry Real, I was just listening to recently on the daily, like this advice, it's like, it can be hard. And it can be hard to be vulnerable and self-reflect. So sometimes it's easier to just be like, I don't know, I'll just be Andrew Tate.

• 38:16Speaker 00

  Right. And they, and they think, okay, so if I do, if I put enough tokens in the machine, then I'll get a prize of a woman.

• 38:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Uh huh.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  Right? And that's really what it comes down to. Cause it blows their mind. Cause I remember, we talked a little bit before about the, the word pick me.

• 38:30Rayna Greenberg?

  You said people do kinda call you a pick me.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  But that's actually the, the title of our podcast, Mr. Pick Me and the Man Hater, came from a hate comment saying, alright, Mr. Pick Me and the Man Hater. And we're like, that's the greatest.

• 38:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Shut up.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, literally, it was, they called us that. And we're like, we need to do a podcast.

• 38:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I love, I mean, we have capitalized on the things people have said. Like, someone once wrote an email and said, I literally don't care about your stupid live shows. And we made, I literally don't care merch and titled the tours, stupid live shows. Anyway, back to you.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  No, but, but it's, they, they give the great, I'm like, that was so creative.

• 39:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  So smart, I know.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  I don't want to go on a tangent, but if you'll, let me.

• 39:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Go for it.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  My, one of my favorite, I'm going to make merch out of this. Somebody said, you're not an alpha male, you're an eat a lot of pie male. Like, P I.

• 39:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:15Speaker 00

  And I was like, that is brilliant. I can't even be upset. That is great.

• 39:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, the, the meanest DM someone sent to me is, it's still going viral, weeks of going viral, comments every day. And it's, this girl went on a rant that she called me a big fupa twat. She called me a trash horse bitch. She said my vagina was long. Like, and the people in the comments are like, she really got creative. It's just like, we need the merch.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Thanks for putting in effort. At least if you're going to come at me, put a little effort into it.

• 39:42Rayna Greenberg?

  She spent some time on that message, yours long.

• 39:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  She kept going. Yeah. Okay, Mr. Pick Me and the Man Hater. Love that.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  So they called us that. And it's, it's upsets them often. And it's the joke in our, our intro to our podcast is that they call me Mr. Pick Me. I've been married for 15 years. We've been together 17 years. Like, I've already been picked. Right? There's, there's not, was a, there's no point. I'm not trying. That's the point of it is the idea is performative. Well, she's not gonna fuck you, bro. I'm like, I don't know. Like, we have three kids. She's done it at least three times.

• 40:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so true.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  It's such a weird thing. Like, they assume, and it's all from videos that are literally just saying the most basic things, like, women are people. Right? I was like, alright, pick me, alright, buddy.

• 40:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Too far.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, you shouldn't emotionally manipulate women. Alright, pick me, cook, right? The white knight to the hero. It's, it's, it's absurd. And I'm like, what? And that's where I always go back. I mentioned earlier the DMs. I'm like, what did I say?

• 40:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  That made you feel that it's so absurd? What, what was this outrageous thing that you? You thought was the most horrific thing that made me a pick me and they're like, that's what they're talking about.

• 40:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Oftentimes, at least in your clips, you're literally just commenting on things that other people have said and breaking it down. And so I'm, I'm, I'm trapped in this algorithm where I get served this really toxic stuff sometimes about like by the year 2030, 45, but you can give me this, this, that, but 45% of women will be like, single, unmarried, no kids. And it was like, talking about how the women are the problem essentially, and you broke down that clip talking about like, let's look at these stats, let's look at why, let's talk about like, you can't just blindly feed the world this stat that half of the women in the world have rejected men and children and then like move along and blame women. And so you're taking things that other people are saying and just breaking it down.

• 41:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love the work you're doing in the DMs, by the way, you're doing the Lord's work. A lot of people really wouldn't take the time and you can change people's minds with a, with a brief conversation, not always. And it's just so funny when we actually think about pick me, the whole thing is that you're trying to attract a member of the opposite sex and be chosen. And you're like, I don't need to do this. Why would I be doing this? I'm actually, and doing this authentically, what would be the other reason?

• 41:44Speaker 00

  Can I say, that's the funniest thing about this whole, the alpha male scene?

• 41:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Is that like, you like women, gay, right? You, you're like, you want to spend time with women? All right, pick me. Like what's, that's the worst thing in the world. You want to be friends with women? You want to be around women?

• 42:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Respect their boundaries, ew.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  Girls are gross.

• 42:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's so true. Like, yes, that whole manosphere hates women. Yes. You're the gay ones.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I'm, I'm the problem because I actually like women because I like being around. I married my wife because I liked being around her. I was attracted to her because I like women.

• 42:22Rayna Greenberg?

  These people also don't want a wife or girlfriend, they want a prisoner.

• 42:24Speaker 00

  Right. And that's the issue.

• 42:26Rayna Greenberg?

  They want a maid and a servant. They don't want a partner.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  They want a new mommy.

• 42:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  They need replacement mommy is what it is.

• 42:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Absolutely. Okay, so why are men so triggered by this? I mean, especially when you're overall, but even the ones you're talking to personally in the DMs, like, let's just start there. Like, what is the issue?

• 42:44Speaker 00

  I think we are going through a cultural shift, right? And any, any cultural shift is going to have a big backlash. You've seen this historically racially, you've seen it. With feminism, you see it with all these sorts of things, you're going to have this big backlash. And I think the reality is, not to get too far in the woods, but now that we, you know, with capitalism the way it is and wealth the way it is, it's not enough to just be a man anymore, right? And it's not enough to, and most households don't have a single provider anymore either. And so they're still expecting the same benefits of when women couldn't have bank accounts, right? When they had to pretend they were thankful for these sort of things, because if they didn't,

• 43:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  their life was going to be literally impossible.

• 43:26Rayna Greenberg?

  People have this idea that like our grandparents had a better handle on having relationships. No, women just couldn't leave. Women could not get bank accounts until 1979. You just couldn't leave.

• 43:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  One of the craziest stats to me is that when no-fault divorce was introduced, female suicide dropped by 20% immediately.

• 43:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and the Republicans are trying to bring it back.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  Of course, that's the horrific thing. But that's the world that they like to pretend like, oh, that's when everyone was happy. That's when, that's when everybody, that's when things were great. Let's go back to that time. Who was happy? And you find happiness when you, when you don't have options. You know, I grew up in poverty, you know, and, and we, I still had a great childhood, I think in a lot of ways, because I, I found things that made me happy. I found things that made me, because the, the reality is the structural components of it were beyond my control. And so either I just get, go into depression, which happens, you know, which is often very hard. Even back then, a lot of, a lot of women were, you know, having to use meds and things just to survive.

• 44:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  The lobotomy, that's when the lobotomy came into play.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, but that's, that's what they're aiming for. They're like, things were easier back then. And they were easier back then.

• 44:32Rayna Greenberg?

  They're easier when you have no options.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  All you had to do was be a paycheck. And it's, they're getting upset because they're not being treated like objects anymore. Right? Men are upset that like, and they, they'll, they'll say, oh, women only want me for my money. That's what you are claiming you want them to want you for, though.

• 44:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  You're saying, oh, I, I, men should be the providers, they should be doing X, Y, and Z. The woman should be in the home. Oh, but why do all these women only want me for my money? Why did you leave me for someone that made more money than I did?

• 45:01Rayna Greenberg?

  But guys are saying this that don't have money.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Right, well, that's, that's, that's the issue of thousandaires, that wanting,

• 45:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  and, and claiming that women are all gold diggers.

• 45:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Well, where's the, is the gold in the room with us right now?

• 45:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  It actually doesn't really matter for you. So that's just that deep rude misogyny.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, yeah. And there was, there was a dating coach that gave advice about how to trick somebody into thinking you have more money than you do. And then it's not surprising that you also see literally across the board with all these coaches in the manosphere that are talking about how women cheat all the time. Right. And, and if you are only offering money, but then you don't have money, why are you shocked when they seek something elsewhere?

• 45:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  Why are you shocked when the person that wanted you for your money doesn't want you anymore? When they find out you don't have money.

• 45:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  Right. And then they'll be angry about it and they'll blame women. A lot of that also comes down to the fact that they, they can't see beyond the idea of like, well, I want you. What can I do to get you?

• 46:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  Like, what, what is it that I can do to, to, uh, and if, and if the reality is, oh, well, you're interested in somebody that doesn't have what you have, they could, but they're like, well, but I want you.

• 46:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:10Speaker 00

  I don't get it. Why can't I have you? Like, well, because we're not, we don't click.

• 46:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  And, and, you know, everyone that's gone through dating for more than a year knows that, you know, everyone you go out with is not going to be perfect, you know? Just because you're attracted to someone doesn't mean you click, but that when you are not viewing the person as a partner, as a friend, as someone you want to spend time with, then you don't understand that. You're just like, she's pretty though.

• 46:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, like I'm entitled to her.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  I'm entitled to her.

• 46:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  We go down a dark road with being entitled to a woman's body even. But when you talk about Andrew Tate and those type of guys, like they're telling you, you're an alpha male. You, you want something, go get it.

• 46:45Speaker 00

  Go get it.

• 46:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're supposed to be able to have it. And sometimes I'll, every once in a while I'll see like a message that a guy sends a woman, she'll DM it to us. And the tone is really that entitlement that I'm like, I think it's a red flag.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 46:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  You, he doesn't think you have autonomy.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 47:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  He just thinks he's deserving of your time.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  You know, they'll have advice about what she means when she says no. You know, they'll literally will, how to tell if she actually means no. And the answer should be, she said no. That's how you know she means no, because she said no. But, and they'll, they'll say, there was one video I responded to of a young woman at a bar that was getting angry at a guy. And she was like, you know, I said, no, leave me alone. What's your problem? And all these guys were like, well, you know, she didn't have to be that mean. She didn't have to be so rude about it. He would have just left. And like, would he have though? Because we hear stories, if she is nice at all, what happens? It'll stick around like, oh, she's playing games. Oh, she actually wants me. Because they can't accept that. And that's why so many women will say, oh, I have a boyfriend. Because they can't accept that it's not enough that you don't want them.

• 47:49Speaker 00

  It has to be another man that might be a barrier there for you.

• 47:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, do you know how many times I've said that in my life to somebody who was just bothering me? I've had to say that to somebody, I have a boyfriend, no, thank you. Like, no was not enough to, because you're a bitch, you're yelled at, people get aggressive with you. I haven't had a ton of really bad experiences where somebody gets super aggressive. But I've almost always had to say, I have a boyfriend. And I was lying.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  Well, I didn't like you anyways. I didn't think you were attractive. I was doing you a favor.

• 48:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Then you're presumptuous, but you say I have a boyfriend, and like, I wasn't into, you know?

• 48:19Speaker 00

  What are you talking about?

• 48:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Remember that guy? He stalked me, literally was showing up at my comedy shows. He was in my DMs for years. And then I finally was like, hey, I'm not interested. Like, I just ignored it. And I was like, using it for content. And then finally, I was like, I'm not interested. And he was like, I was just wanting to be friends. I was like, oh, okay, yeah, I can tell. Showing up where I was at, showing up at my work.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  Really think, I'm your number one fan. I have a fan club for you.

• 48:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's even weirder.

• 48:43Rayna Greenberg?

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• 49:27Rayna Greenberg?

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• 49:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. If you have, if you have any ideas, you want to start a store, sell anything, just start there. If you were literally like, how do I start? This is where everyone started. This is where you start. Again, I think I got my first Shopify store when I was in, when I was, when I was 14 in 2014. And I've never looked back.

• 49:58Rayna Greenberg?

  It's the one stop shop for everything. There is so many things you can do to just build your company, be an entrepreneur, start your empire. So if you're ready to build your own empire, whether it's merch, products, or the next great idea, get on Shopify.com slash GGE and make it happen.

• 50:12Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 50:57Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 51:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Again, liveconscious.com and that is code GGE for 15% off.

• 51:46Rayna Greenberg?

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• 52:30Rayna Greenberg?

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• 52:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did you see Marie Foster's Bilt ad? I'm not gonna send it to you. She's walking down the street.

• 52:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I think she does.

• 52:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  And she says, I had to go pick up some checks to pay my rent. And immediately you're like, what? What year is this? And then she says that she saw a woman proposing to a man in the park and she almost dropped her checks. And she tells this whole wild story. And then it ends with Bilt helping her pay her rent. It is the best ad I've ever seen.

• 53:07Rayna Greenberg?

  No shock there. Everything she does is so good.

• 53:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I did not see it coming. I was like, this is genius. All I'm gonna send you right now. Anyway, guys, Reezy, R-E-E-E-Z-Y. She's one of the funniest people. She was on this podcast so many years ago. We should get her back. Okay, let's get back into it.

• 53:21Rayna Greenberg?

  I want to talk about those videos that get served a lot. They'd say like, half of women will be single and childless by, what is it, 2030? Do you remember what the stats are?

• 53:28Speaker 00

  It's allegedly. I mean, it changes depending on what argument they're trying to make. So I don't think the stats are really that genuine as much as they've been repeated so often that now we just accept that they're genuine.

• 53:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Uh huh. So I find it like interesting that those videos, they blame women for their expectations of men and that's why women are going to be single. They're choosing to be single because their expectations are so high and you you push back on that.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  The idea that the expectations are high is absolutely absurd to me because if you actually know women, I think that goes back to so many men not having women that are friends. With them and if you've had known women that are dating, you know very well that the expectations are not that they have to have all these sorts of things. And I I even want to push back a little bit. I think they only will choose examples of women that want all of these things. And then once again, apply them to all women. But even the women that want those things, that's fine, right? The the same with a man that is only attracted to certain, that's fine. Just don't be a dick about it, right? And it goes for it for anybody, right? If you're only attracted to someone that is tall, that's fine. Don't be a dick about it, right?

• 54:35Speaker 00

  If you're only attracted to a woman that is X, Y, or Z.

• 54:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Twenty-two-year-old model.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  I mean, fine, but well. We can get into the whole weeds of of the.

• 54:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Barely legal is a whole different.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Preferences in for most things, I think, are are just preferences, right? I do think, just since you brought that up, though, that that is that is the thing that I get a lot of negative pushback from guys. When I'll speak out against someone my age that is dating eighteen-year-olds. And they're like, well, good for him. I'm like, that's so weird. That's so weird.

• 55:12Rayna Greenberg?

  It really, really is and needs to be studied more.

• 55:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:15Rayna Greenberg?

  We're like not talking about it enough.

• 55:16Speaker 00

  Right. It's not even like it's a happenstance thing. Like I I will, I don't think this this happens, but I will I will give that it's possible. That there was a situation where there was that you were working with somebody or in a play with somebody and you found love and there's an age gap there. And whatever, so is life, right? It's when they're seeking out only.

• 55:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Always.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  That age group where there's clearly something going. The metaphor I use, this is years ago now in a video about a guy that was like, uh, that men only want to date eighteen, nineteen, twenty year olds. I was like, was when I was a, I do photography on the side. I used to be a professional photographer. When I was starting out, I only liked working with brand new amateur models because they were just thankful that I showed up.

• 56:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  Right. They were, they didn't care that the quality was bad. They didn't care that the pictures weren't edited well.

• 56:10Rayna Greenberg?

  They didn't even know. I, I remember my relationships in my early twenties. I didn't even have the language to call out behavior. That's great. You know, there's like this funny clip. It's like the man talking. He's like, women in their thirties are actualized and they know what they want and they're confident and they can say the things that they mean. And that is why I date girls in their twenties. You know, like that's this man.

• 56:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Is that your, is that your photography example?

• 56:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, and that's exactly it. Because they, they can tell if you're bad in bed. They, they can tell if you have no ambition. They can tell if you, because they've actually have lived experience. They, they've actually been alive in this world outside of high school and can tell that you're actually just a loser.

• 56:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  But like, but I mean, this is a tangent, but what about the guys that are losers? Like, I mean, and that, those are just some, also some weird Hollywood people, but like forty, fifty, sixty year olds, rich, famous dudes that do it. I mean, let's not forget that like, I totally understand the example of you're a fucking loser and someone in their thirties is going to call you out on it. But it's just like the whole landscape of that. But that always, again, like I said, just weirdo famous people.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  But I think that goes back to this, this performance for other men, right?

• 57:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Right. The younger, the better.

• 57:15Speaker 00

  It's not necessarily that they're not attractive. Cause like, I, I refuse to believe.

• 57:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 57:19Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't think I'm weird, but I don't, I refuse to believe that they think an eighteen year old is better looking than an attractive thirty year old.

• 57:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 57:26Speaker 00

  There's just no.

• 57:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Or a twenty five year old.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  What is even twenty five? There's just no, like, but that is absurd to me. That, that's all. But what it is, it's impressive. They can say, hey, look, I, I pulled a twenty year old.

• 57:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  I pulled a twenty one year old. Same thing with weight. I, I was talking to, I didn't get permission to share this. But I was talking to a creator at a conference I was at recently, and she used to be very overweight. And she said, men used to hit on her constantly, right? They were in love with her, but they just didn't want to, there are other guys to. See it.

• 57:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Hmm.

• 57:54Speaker 00

  Right. So it's not that the attraction is there, but it's all about the performance.

• 57:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Uh huh.

• 57:58Speaker 00

  Of it. And now that she's thinner and more traditionally beautiful, then now it's okay.

• 58:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Hmm.

• 58:03Speaker 00

  Right. Not because they were less attracted to her.

• 58:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, right.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  Because they're less afraid of what the judgment is. And it's such an absurd thing.

• 58:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 58:11Speaker 00

  Like never once when I was dating, and my wife, you know, admittedly is can is stereotypically beautiful. Right. But the I never thought like when I was dating her like, oh, man, the boys are gonna love this. I cannot wait till they see this when I post this picture and they're gonna be so excited for me. It was like I, she's really fun. She's great. I like her.

• 58:33Rayna Greenberg?

  I have to assume correctly that somebody, a man, adult man who was a who was seeking out women that are like under twenty two is seeking out people that are incapable of calling them out for their adult behavior. And that's not to say that people are eighteen, nineteen, twenty.

• 58:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Jordan and Bill.

• 58:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, well, she's running that show.

• 58:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bill Belichick.

• 58:50Rayna Greenberg?

  But like I, it's not to say people that age aren't smart, but it age is not just a number. It's actually your age. And it's your lived experience and there's no alternative to it. And so I have to assume you are seeking people out only because they do not have the agency to challenge you on the way that you are.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  Absolutely right.

• 59:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it's, I mean, we all like our partner to look good. I I I get off on people thinking my fiance is hot. But if it's not the reason why I'm with him, I'm obviously attracted to him. But when you really want somebody for those reasons and that validation only, I mean, it's gotta be rooted in like the deepest insecurity. And you just live and die by validation. And I mean, I guess that makes sense for a lot of the famous people we're talking about. But it doesn't have to be just famous. It's, you know.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Anybody, yeah.

• 59:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Anybody. And you've commodified your relationship at that point, right? You're only dating them because of how they look. It has nothing to do with really and their age. And that's sort of it.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  Which is why they don't then understand how you can actually like your partner, right? How you can actually be friends with your partner. Right. Cause I, well, I only got with her because she was pretty because because the other guys liked her.

• 59:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  And then after a certain point, then what is that relationship ten years from now?

• 59:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  What does it look like?

• 59:56Speaker 00

  Twenty years from now.

• 59:57Rayna Greenberg?

  You break up? Look at Scott Disick. You just trade him in for the next college girl.

• 1:00:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  What does it look like in the home? Like, that's what I'm dying to see. Because I'm, you know, I'd live with somebody like we're together all the time. How did, how do you not enjoy each other's company? How do you not laugh and have fun and have conversations?

• 1:00:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, because that's what you value. Like you value, you want to be friends with somebody. You want to enjoy his input and his take on how you spend your day. You want to tell him things and hear what he has to say about it. They're not shopping in that pool.

• 1:00:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  But what does it look like? As I'm saying, I just want to be a fly on the wall. I'm just curious, you know?

• 1:00:26Rayna Greenberg?

  She's shopping, she's out with the girls.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  But I think even with attraction of a male partner, right? They always talk about there's only three things women want. They want a six pack, six inches, six figures, right? It's always those kinds of things that they're looking for. And, and they, when they, this may shock you. I'm not the thinnest guy in the world, right? But, and I was never, uh, now I make pretty good money. But when I was younger, when I was in the dating scene, I did not have any money. I was, I made, when I met my wife, when we started dating, I was a graduate student making $13,000 a year. Right? There was no money there.

• 1:00:59Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, right.

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  But we had fun together.

• 1:01:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  And that didn't, and I, could I take her out to expensive restaurants? No, but she accepted that there were other things I brought to the relationship that were not.

• 1:01:10Rayna Greenberg?

  You are tall, you've got hair.

• 1:01:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  The six pack is, you said six pack and it's not that. It's six feet.

• 1:01:15Rayna Greenberg?

  How tall are you? You're like six three.

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  I'm six five.

• 1:01:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh shit.

• 1:01:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  See, don't even, you see, you're doing no room to talk.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  Because that's one, that's one attribute.

• 1:01:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Six five cancels out bank account, okay? It does not matter.

• 1:01:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I mean, I, it's interesting, we're all over the place here. But I rarely hear a woman talk about wanting like a jacked dude anymore.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, because it's not women that talk about it. It's other men telling that are talking about it. Traditionally, in my experience, I'm agreeing with you that it's the, the stare. There was, oh, I can't remember the guy's name. I just did a video about him.

• 1:01:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Dan Balzerian. Couldn't be shorter.

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 1:01:49Rayna Greenberg?

  He's like five seven.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  It was not a bad guy. It was not a, yeah, I know.

• 1:01:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  It wasn't a bad one.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  It was, it was like some like pop star in the UK that everyone was like, you don't know who, I don't know. Samuel Tuppence is? I don't remember his name. But they, uh, they, he had a picture of him when he was just a fit guy. And then a picture of him when he was just sculpted. And they asked men and women, what do you think is more attractive? And all the women chose the before.

• 1:02:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  And all the men over. When you chose this idea of this fully sculpted, and it's not to say that there aren't women, obviously, that like guys that are attacked, and there's nothing wrong with that. But the idea is there's all women, once again, are a monolith and want the exact same thing. If they acknowledge that women are not that way, then they have to acknowledge that the reason that they're single has to do more with the fact that all women are evil.

• 1:02:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  Right, it has to do with something that maybe there were other things they could have been doing along the way that wouldn't have given them that red flag of being this horrific person that a woman has to cover their drink around because that's what they were told, that's what women like. They like toxic guys.

• 1:02:51Rayna Greenberg?

  It's so interesting because you have these men telling other men how to be, how to look, how to act, and then they attract to these women that they genuinely hate.

• 1:02:58Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:59Rayna Greenberg?

  And that like want them for their money or their bodies, and then they're mad about that too, and it's like the road, where's the happiness at the end of this toxic masculinity that you're saying you should aspire to?

• 1:03:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  So let's circle back to this whole, all these women are going to be single and childless by this age, and this can kind of lead us into something that you talk about in your content of men needing women more than women need men.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  Right, and it's never, it's not that men are useless, it's not that women are useless. And I know you are hearing what I'm actually saying as opposed to what the guys will yell at me in the comments that I'm saying, but I think a big part of it comes down to this, and this kind of ties into other than we've been talking about where they don't want to be around women, so the only emotional intimacy they get in their life is their romantic partner.

• 1:03:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  Right, because the guys that they're hanging out with, it's very surface level, it's very much about, once again, this alphaness of like still trying to power yourself or position yourself as the most powerful one in the group, how impressive can I be? Let's talk about X, Y, and Z that are very surface level things, and the only time they get to feel any emotional intimacy, because God knows they're not going to therapy, is with a woman in their life who they're relying on to be their mom, their therapist, and their best friend without ever acknowledging that they like them. And so when I, the reason why you see, you know, the male loneliness epidemic is, you know, you hear that term all the time, and I do think it's a legitimate thing, but there's just as many women that are single. That are you're not we're not talking about because women have friends.

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  Right that they can actually still talk to women have other people in their life that they don't they aren't fully reliant on. Men for and so it goes back to why everything's interrelated when you're expecting a man to be more than just a paycheck. Then they get upset about that because that's the the lie that they were told growing up. Is that that's the role as long as they provide a paycheck they're going to get this woman to be. Their mom their therapist their their friend and their lover which is such a weird combination of four things but that's. What they're asking for without saying those words in all of these these videos.

• 1:05:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and there's so many. Men that aren't like this by the way we can't stress this enough. You're not the only one in the world I mean it's it's truly like that so it's like is this just. Parenting you know it's interesting like where do you what do you attribute to the divide.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  There's a lot of conversations that in this space of kind of how do we counter this right now and it's it's you talk about grooming. That's the legitimate definition of grooming is what they're doing when a guy a young guy is like I wanna I wanna work about my think about my fitness. And all of a sudden then they're being shown videos from Andrew Tate. Right or I I got broken up with I'm feeling sad then all of a sudden you're seeing Sneako or. One of these other million you know insert generic name X that wants to be the next Andrew Tate there. And so they have this pipeline of information that's being spread and connected to all of these things. And the issue the problem I think comes in is that when you have men.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  In the healthier space that actually do like women they get this such negative feedback from other men that they stop talking about it. They're like oh it's not worth it I don't want to deal with it when the reality is women in this space that are saying the exact same things I am. Are are met with violent reactions I don't get violent I get I get called names. It's so sad right it's not it's not but women in this exact same space saying far less than I am are met with like death threats. They'll find their phone numbers their address they do really really horrific things to them. And they're still speaking up because they can understand that it's it affects them personally whereas it's it's a. privilege of a man to be able like, well, I'll be fine. If I don't talk, it's easier if I don't talk about this, so I'm not going to.

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  I mentioned I was at a conference in Washington DC this past week about reproductive health. And one of the panels I was on is about what role do men have in the conversation about pro-choice, about abortion? And you always hear, well, you're a man, you shouldn't have an opinion, but we know what opinion they're talking about. Right? It's about controlling women's bodies. It's about the idea that a group of, of, of predominantly white men in a small room can decide what is better for all the women in the country. Any man that is speaking up, though, is going to be met with negative vitriol from other men. Cause you're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed to talk about these sort of things. And it's uncomfortable, you know, most men are uncomfortable with the word vulva. Right? Or let alone even knowing what that is, right? And so

• 1:07:25Speaker 00

  the idea of talking about reproductive health makes them feel icky because they've been told that women are gross. Women are coo- have cooties, right? Women are something different. That's their problem. When the reality is, it's not their problem when it's affecting all of us. Right? It's not just a woman's problem when we exist in a world together. That's there when women are dying in parking lots, right? When we have daughters and sisters and wives and mothers that are also having to deal with the repercussions of this. It's not just a woman's issue. It's a human rights issue. But because it makes them uncomfortable, that's enough for too many guys to just kind of stay silent about it. And it's not having a platform. It's not going on TikTok and making videos about it. Ninety-nine percent of change is not from a video that I or another person has made, right?

• 1:08:09Speaker 00

  It's from hearing a guy saying something at the gym that is really problematic and saying, hey, that's fucked up, right? Hey, that, that's, why do you feel that? Why, why, why are you saying that? And that's why, why I said some of the most change happens in my DMs. You see the real person then in the DMs, because it's not performative. It's not showy. They're, they're no longer, when I'm questioning them, they'll, they'll end up apologizing to me because of the fact that it's no longer the eyes of the world seeing them and they're not afraid of it anymore.

• 1:08:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  To your point, like the grooming and that content, that manosphere type content comes in at like a vulnerable place. And then there's like a weakness there too. Cause there's plenty of guys out there that would be like, I want to be stronger. I want to get over my breakup and they wouldn't fall victim to that type of thing. So it's just like, I don't know, like where do we, where do we start? I mean, I'm so happy for that people like Rena's brother and my brother are like having boys. So at least they can like, you know, raise some good ones. Cause it's like, how do we combat this? I don't know. Like, I mean, I think there's men that get served, certain women on the internet that are like, oh, men are terrible. And then they feel marginalized and put a box like, well, not me. And then they start getting served the Andrew Tate

• 1:09:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  tone. And they're like, I've found somebody I can listen to. And look who the president is, you know, men overwhelmingly voted for him because that is their picture of masculinity.

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  Which is terrifying.

• 1:09:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's so, it's so insane to me. Cause it's like the real men that I know in my life, whether they're family, friends, I mean, the man I'm marrying, I mean, that are real men that are like secure and successful and have good relationships with women and their families and have children like hate Donald Trump. They're sickened by him, you know?

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  As they should be.

• 1:09:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Yeah. Like it's, he's given us a bad name. So.

• 1:09:59Rayna Greenberg?

  My brother said to me once, I was looking at a video of somebody we both kind of know that their whole personality is like working out, looking jacked and like being a man. And my brother was like, my brother was very masculine, played college football, worked in finance, very masculine guy. He was like, I could never hate myself enough to make that my whole personality.

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  I would have used that. That is the greatest.

• 1:10:20Rayna Greenberg?

  He's funnier than I am. Yeah.

• 1:10:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Both of our brothers are too funny.

• 1:10:23Rayna Greenberg?

  They're so funny, but it really reframed that for me. Somebody who like really needs to make like the way their body looks and acting alpha and being better than people and above them and the true picture of masculinity. Like at their core, like why, why do you think you, they need those things? They have to hate themselves on some level.

• 1:10:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like I said, it's systemic. It's the same issue, the same stuff that's making men feel they can't talk about their feelings are the same thing that's causing them to. To enact violence and feel like the one feeling they can't talk about is anger.

• 1:10:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:51Speaker 00

  Right, yet the blame that'll come out from them, not, not all men, all right, keep on saying it. Is, is the, it's the fault of women without acknowledging that it's us doing it to each other.

• 1:11:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:03Speaker 00

  Right, it's, it's not, it's, it's not us doing it to each other, but it's us doing it to each other.

• 1:11:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's male on male crime. It's, you know, growing up and everything you think and feel is one of your peers says that's gay.

• 1:11:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:11:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, and not wanting to appear to be that way.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  Well, and it's getting, it's getting to the point, I think social media is amplifying it so much, where the things that are not manly are absurd. Like, I don't know if you saw, I did a whole series last year, literally five different videos on it, and I could have done more.

• 1:11:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:11:33Speaker 00

  About how men are not wiping their asses, because that's, they don't want to touch their asshole, because that's gay. And it was the comment sections of women sharing, let me tell you about this guy I dated, about like underwear full of like, this is, I don't know if you put a warning on this for the video.

• 1:11:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, no, no.

• 1:11:52Speaker 00

  Well, underwear just like literally caked and shit, they're, they're getting, a guy being on top of a woman and her having like a streak on her.

• 1:12:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, no, no, I'm not okay.

• 1:12:02Speaker 00

  It is, I know, this is, this is.

• 1:12:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  What are some other ones?

• 1:12:05Speaker 00

  The way you open a water bottle, there's a, there's a special way you have to open it, and the funny, I made fun of this video.

• 1:12:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Republicans drinking straws, that's the, the Fox News won't shut up about men drinking out of straws. Stop, sometimes you want a straw, grow up.

• 1:12:17Speaker 00

  You can't do that, and I've never personally thought of a straw and thought, that's too phallic, right?

• 1:12:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:23Speaker 00

  That's just, oh man, someone's gonna think, we're eating a banana in public, eating a hot, there, there's all, I mean, there's, you can keep on going, there's just so many of these weird things that are, that are so terrified of doing because, oh, then people are not gonna see me as a man. And really, it's, one scan, it's not women, I, I don't, I'm sure they're, they exist out there, there are women that don't like those things. And they'll sign the one video and be like, see, women are terrible, because they don't like this thing.

• 1:12:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  But there is nothing. Hotter, sexier, more masculine to me than a man that is secure in whatever he's doing.

• 1:12:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 1:12:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, why do you think so many women like Harry Styles? Because he's just gonna do him and wear whatever. And it's just like, again, not all women either. I mean, I don't speak for us all, but it's just like, it's just so crazy to me. Because the hottest trait to me is a man doing him and owning it. And like, the grossest, most insecure thing is like, I don't want to touch my own asshole because it's gay. It's just crazy.

• 1:13:22Speaker 00

  And even, even less extreme, like the fact that I let my daughters paint my nails. Because they wanted to paint my nails. And they'll see it on my videos sometimes. I don't have them right now, but, and they'll be like, oh, why would, and no man would ever, you would stop your daughter from doing that because real men would teach her that that's not the way men are. I'm like, yes, because that's clearly, I'm harming my children by giving them a memory.

• 1:13:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:46Speaker 00

  Anything like that. And it's, I can't, it must be exhausting, right? And you go back to like, how it harms men, all the things you can't do.

• 1:13:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  All the things you can't do.

• 1:13:53Speaker 00

  Having to think about before I do anything in this world.

• 1:13:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, welcome to being a woman.

• 1:13:57Speaker 00

  Well, I guess so, yeah. That sounds exhausting. I guess it's maybe they're, they're trying to make it the same thing. But it's, I can't imagine living that way where I'd have to just think about, is everything I'm doing? I mean, the, the dating videos about like, oh, you have to wait a certain amount of time before texting. You can't, don't show her that you like her too much on the first date. Don't ask too many questions. Don't blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Don't pay for the full bill. Don't do this. Oh, there's so many of these different things. No, I know. There's, there's, there's this collection, but they'll also say, oh, no, but real men should pay for the bill. And it's, so they'll have these contradictions that going on there that are all the one truth and one reality. Because they have the answer, and if you want more, buy my course.

• 1:14:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 1:14:35Rayna Greenberg?

  There's just, there's too many microphones in the world. There's just, there's a lot of information. Sometimes I just, I swipe through reels and I just get really overloaded with like, the amount of opinions. And listen, we're part of it too. We've lost some opinions to start a podcast. We think our opinions are great.

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:14:47Rayna Greenberg?

  But there is a lot of it on the internet. It's hard to tune it out. And I do feel for everybody of all genders that it is hard to be like, I don't know what the fuck to listen to.

• 1:14:55Speaker 00

  Right. And especially if you're a young guy. I, I can't even fathom being a Seventeen, eighteen year old guy trying to date and not knowing what is real? Who is telling the truth?

• 1:15:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Get a friend, get a girlfriend.

• 1:15:09Speaker 00

  And that's exactly, I had friends that were women my entire life.

• 1:15:12Rayna Greenberg?

  If you don't have a sister, get a friend.

• 1:15:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that was how I learned about what I had asked them questions because there was platonic friends that weren't interested in that I could be like, hey, what should I? Do you think this is a good idea? How should I respond to this?

• 1:15:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:15:24Speaker 00

  But don't know, but don't listen to women. That's the whole thing. You don't ask a fish how to catch a fish. You ask fishermen, right? Because if a woman will tell you what is actually they want in a relationship, but they're, they're lying. That's what every one of their videos, I have total, I have like over two million women that follow me. And if you watch any of my comment sections of any of these videos, they're filled with women saying, yes, this is what I want.

• 1:15:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:15:48Speaker 00

  This is what I would like. This is what I want. And they'll be like, no, it's bullshit.

• 1:15:52Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that if you ask the average woman, myself and Ashley included, what do you want in a person? If you can pick 10 things, sure, two of them might have to do with money or I'm attracted to a certain height. I would like you to make a certain income, but the other eight things are all personality driven. How do you make me feel? What? How are you intentional? Or, you know? I, I think that if you really boiled it down, you could listen to women and it's personality driven that we are looking for. It's not this toxic masculinity.

• 1:16:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  A hundred percent. A question that we had on our list was, are there healthier ways for women to communicate their needs without falling into caretaker roles? Rain, you wrote that question. Do you want, can you break it down more? Did you get that from chat GPT?

• 1:16:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cause now I'm like, does that make sense?

• 1:16:37Rayna Greenberg?

  It makes sense. So, I mean, like every interview we do like this, it's like, okay, well, if this, then what, right? Like if we're saying that we want men to be better, how can we ask them to be better in what ways? And I guess like, I don't like to just, Ashley and I never like to be like, this is the problem. We're going to see ourselves out now, you know? So like, is there anything women can do?

• 1:16:56Speaker 00

  Well, I think, I think the problem is, this is the problem, all right? And so, but I think there is a, this is the problem is that there, that women are saying what to do online. It's easy to find.

• 1:17:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Exactly.

• 1:17:07Speaker 00

  It's not like there are no women out there giving genuinely great. Dating advice, great relationship advice. There's like, like fantastic. That mirrors exactly what I'm saying. But for some reason, the only person that's listening was when another man says it.

• 1:17:20Rayna Greenberg?

  And no, women are like, you know, what you should do is be taller and richer.

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:17:23Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, some.

• 1:17:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, the guys that listen to this show, I mean, you know, every, every once in a blue moon, we will get a really wonderful message from a guy that's like, this helped me find my partner. Like this made me into a better partner, which also there is hope. You know, people do change. I, I really like that you have been able to change some people's minds with your work and even privately in the DMs. And so, you know, there is hope.

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  I get the same thing. I get a lot of men. If I have more men than people, once again, if you look at it from a numbers perspective, a half million men follow me. They're not all hate follows, right? There's some of them are, because I know from their comments and I have a lot of women that will say, oh, my husband actually likes your stuff, like listens to your stuff. He loves when I show him your videos, but he's not on social media, right? Or though, it's usually people in happy relationships. And it's not that I'm a guru. I'm not a dating expert, right? I'm not some person that has done this for a living. I just like women, right? That's where I'm in a happy and I, and I can give it examples from being in a 17 year relationship now with three kids. And they're always like, oh, well, do you film in the corner when your wife is with it? I'm like, I'm not worried about that, right?

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  Because it goes back to they, if you, oh, if you're too nice, if you care about your wife too much, she must be cheating on you. You must be worried about her leaving you. Like, what is wrong? Why are you so broken?

• 1:18:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. How are you so broken?

• 1:18:40Speaker 00

  It's so sad.

• 1:18:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  And a lot of it is, it's deep. Again, it's, it's how you grew up. I mean, I'm, I'm fascinated by it.

• 1:18:47Speaker 00

  Who hurt you?

• 1:18:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, who hurt you? But it's probably, some of it's probably pretty bad.

• 1:18:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, again, and this isn't male apologist stuff, but it's, there was probably for a lot of these men, really bad home situation of some abandonment, abuse, maybe. It, it doesn't always have to be the one girl that broke your heart in college that turned you into this way. So, you know, I want to acknowledge that too, but that's with anyone, male, female, whoever.

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  Dating is hard.

• 1:19:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:09Speaker 00

  Right. And I think that's the issue is that we're fed that it's, dating shouldn't be hard. But it is because you're seeking someone theoretically, if you want a long-term relationship, right? You're seeking out somebody that you want to spend the rest of your life with. Rest of your life with, it's not gonna happen on the first try. It's probably not gonna happen on the 20th try. You have to continue dating and get to know somebody and meet them and and be willing to be vulnerable. Right? As opposed to the self fulfilling prophecy is if I'm putting on this mask and pretending to be this fake person. To be with somebody and then when they meet the real me, they don't like me and we break up with each other. You just wasted your entire time.

• 1:19:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Absolutely.

• 1:19:44Speaker 00

  Right? I I'm friends with literally everyone I've ever dated. Before I'm not close and we don't hang out, not like, you know, we're not DMing each other like what you do last week. But like I'm I'm on good terms and it's because I dated women that I liked. Right? And there was never a situation in our, when we were dating each other where they were like, like, oh, you've changed. You're someone else. They were, they knew who I was. We tried it out. Didn't work out. We moved on with our lives and we were able to be positive and have a positive reflection on that reaction. I've had exes. That were, uh, set me up with other women because they're like, you know, we didn't click, but I do think there's somebody that, uh, that you would like that way. Because of the fact that when we broke up, I didn't all of a sudden burn the house down.

• 1:20:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:22Speaker 00

  And and treat her like she was the worst person in the world because she wasn't. She was a good person that I dated.

• 1:20:26Rayna Greenberg?

  That I chose. I also, I I sends bells off immediately to me when I'm talking to a man and he says negative things about his ex to me. She says she's crazy or narcissist. I'm just like, run. And I just, my, my hope is when I date somebody that they say, I have no feelings about that person anymore. They were nice. It ended. They were a nice person, which is how I mostly feel about most of my exes. I feel in the middle about all of them and that's what you hope for. When a man says terrible things about their exes, I'm just like, what, what did you do?

• 1:20:54Speaker 00

  And it's rarely one ex too. It's always like every single one.

• 1:20:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, I totally agree with that because I feel like a lot of people have one crazy ex.

• 1:21:03Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 1:21:03Rayna Greenberg?

  But if it's the whole pattern.

• 1:21:05Speaker 00

  So after a certain point, you have to accept that what's the common denominator?

• 1:21:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you think there's anything that women that you see in your work that are getting wrong about men out there? You know, not the bad ones, but you know, that are just kind of like. Cause I'm always learning, you know, I feel like I'm always learning how to be a better partner. You, you want to make your partner feel like needed and loved.

• 1:21:27Speaker 00

  I think if we're gonna talk generally. Not to get too professor-y and like so.

• 1:21:32Rayna Greenberg?

  No, go off.

• 1:21:33Speaker 00

  So one of my, one of my research areas is something called feminist standpoint epistemology. And it's the idea that you have your lived experience as someone on these structural power structures in society. You know much more about the people above you on, on that structure, but know far less about the people that are below you in these structural power things that go on. Right. And so I think women understand men pretty well.

• 1:21:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:56Speaker 00

  I, I think as a general rule, they get it because of the fact that, you know, we, we do have a misogyny based culture. And as, as a woman who is affected by so many of these political policies, by societal things, the, the dating life that's out there. It's much easier, I think, for women to see what it's like to be a man in the dating world than it is for a man to understand.

• 1:22:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 1:22:17Speaker 00

  What it's like to be a woman.

• 1:22:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I love this concept and Sarah Silverman has a new comedy special and she says something to the effect of that, that women understand men because we've had to, to be a part of society. To assimilate into these cultures and be respected. We've had to understand what makes you tick, how to get your respect. Men have, have not had to do that as much for as long.

• 1:22:35Speaker 00

  I mean, I, I joke that I have a, I mentioned earlier, I have a bachelor's in gender, a master's in feminist rhetoric, and that allows me to have a conversation with a random woman.

• 1:22:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:45Speaker 00

  I could have a good conversation with a woman who has lived her life as a woman. And like my, my, my podcast co-host, she doesn't have a theoretical or academic background. She says most of the brilliant things on our podcast. I think I set her up and she, I'm like, yep, that's, that's it. And she knows it not because she read it and took a, a graduate seminar on it, but because she lived it. Right. And she, she's a lesbian, but she dated as a, as a straight woman before she realized that. And so she has experience on the, on the whole spectrum of dating. Right. And so when she brings things up, she just knows it because she lived it. Right. And she's been able to see it, whereas a lot of men, I think, are able to be, it's a privilege to be blind to what is happening to the people around you. And I think that's really what it comes down to. So I think as a whole, women are saying that they get it.

• 1:23:31Rayna Greenberg?

  I do feel like I'm, I'm always learning, but like my knowledge is just kind of, it's, it's basic shit. It's stuff I pick up on a podcast or on a TikTok or Men are for Mars, Women are for Venus, which that book's a little misogynistic, but I read.

• 1:23:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  A long time ago.

• 1:23:42Speaker 00

  At the time it was good, but now, yeah, it's problematic now.

• 1:23:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  But a lot of just, it's basic principles that people are just different, you know, and like trying to understand someone, understand that they're built different and wired different. And this is what their needs, their love languages and all that stuff. It's just basic shit.

• 1:23:55Speaker 00

  It's not hard and that's the, the bar being low. I have a whole playlist on Tik Tok of the bar being so low. And it's all the most basic stuff like, like women have feelings. Don't lie to them, right? The, like, sometimes it's helpful to change a diaper when your daughter or your, when your child is born, right? It's, it's nothing that's groundbreaking. Nobody should be watching my videos and being like, this guy gets it. No, they, it's, it's embarrassing that people are saying that about me because nothing I'm saying is above and beyond basic human empathy.

• 1:24:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Women have feelings. Don't lie to them. There it is, you guys. We solved it.

• 1:24:32Speaker 00

  We did it. We did it.

• 1:24:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  You did this video where like you're sort of duetting this guy that's talking about how women's standards are too high. And I'm like, the bar is in hell. Our standards are literally so low. Can you just like show up to a thing you commit to? Like that, like if you ask me to do a thing and you make a plan with me, can you just come to the plan? Like that's the bar, like just be nice to me.

• 1:24:54Speaker 00

  Well, it's the list that they're going off of that's just really hard to, to hit list is the one that other men are telling them.

• 1:25:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, yes. Our list is easy. It's pretty much being a person.

• 1:25:05Speaker 00

  I think, and this is, this is kind of a funnier aspect of this. I really do think goes back to the age thing. When they're looking at videos, like I, so I teach, uh, community college. Most of my students are fairly young, even as little as 13. And so my classes and we'll do group projects where we do budgeting and things like that, just to do random interactions. And it's always the younger ones that have no idea how much anything costs, right? It's, it's the, how much is my, I need $20,000 for groceries every month, or even vice versa. I need $20 for groceries every month. Because they haven't lived it. They don't have the experience. And so these guys will be like, all women, uh, want X, Y, and Z. It's because they're looking at 18 year olds who are fresh out of high school, who have, haven't lived and been disappointed by, by the, how low the bar is in so many times. And they're like, oh, that's clearly all women. But if you actually talk to women.

• 1:25:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:51Speaker 00

  You find out that once again, as a multifaceted human being, that, you know, I'm not going to be every woman's cup of tea. There's plenty, there's many women that would never want to date me.

• 1:26:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Six, six, five.

• 1:26:07Rayna Greenberg?

  What's the clip I sent you?

• 1:26:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  The beard, yeah.

• 1:26:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Trey Kennedy. Trey Kennedy, he's a comedian. He has this clip and he's like, 6'3", like, you can get away with life. 6'5", you can go to prison. Just don't tell me about it. Like, I don't care if you speak English. You killed a person. I bet he was a bad guy.

• 1:26:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  But then 6'6", well, you're tall.

• 1:26:22Rayna Greenberg?

  6'6", it's too much.

• 1:26:24Speaker 00

  So I got right on the...

• 1:26:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, it's, honestly, it's 6'5", that's perfect.

• 1:26:28Speaker 00

  All right, so maybe I have a skewed vision of this, but I do think...

• 1:26:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, we're not just fucking with you, but yeah.

• 1:26:33Speaker 00

  I do, I think there are, the fact is, I'm not...

• 1:26:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is why men hate you, by the way.

• 1:26:36Speaker 00

  I'm like, you may be like, I'm like, no, this is weird. I'm not used to this. I'm just being yelled at online.

• 1:26:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  They're like, I hate you, and you're like, wait till I stand up, motherfucker. Yeah.

• 1:26:44Speaker 00

  Well, that's also, that's the, that is a funny thing, though. It's like, I fit the roles that they say I'm a masculine, alpha guy. Like, I take care, I'm a, my wife's a stay-at-home mom. I make good money. I protect my family. I take care of my kids. I own my own business. You know, I'm 6'5", yet I'm apparently the most beta, you know, guy that exists out there because of the fact that I care about women, because I like women.

• 1:27:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, let's like, talk about a few little dating things, see if you have some, some takes on this stuff. So, we obviously see bad behavior. We, you know, experience it and we hear about it constantly from our listeners. When guys are doing things like ghosting, or breadcrumbing, or keeping a roster and all of that, do you discuss that and like, where that kind of comes from psychologically?

• 1:27:32Speaker 00

  I mean, I think a lot of it is just trying to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. They, they think, because everything's failing for them, so like, oh, this must be the reason for it. Breadcrumbs is the funniest thing to me, because it makes no sense whatsoever. It's like, well, I gotta keep something hidden and just slowly string them along, as opposed to you're gonna run out of stuff to, to be that person for them and kind of...

• 1:27:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you think it's conscious? I mean, I guess every person is dynamic and has their own set of problems, but like, do you think when people are like breadcrumbing you, they're like, I'm gonna get her, but I'm gonna fuck with her, I'm gonna do what I say, I'm gonna pull back?

• 1:28:05Speaker 00

  But, yeah, I don't think that's natural. I mean, ghosting can be out of fear if you're like, just, you're terrified of talking to somebody. I could see that might be, but, but I think most of these things are... Very clearly, they've heard it, they've thought it, because I, once again, I was told these things. When I was a single guy in my twenties, all of these exact same advice was being given. You have to do X, Y, and Z, even things like nagging, even though those sort of things. Those were all given out, and obviously I didn't follow them because I'm not a horrible human being. But I was like, in my mind back then, I was like, I'm probably, I probably should be doing these things. Right? And, and that's probably why I'm not, you know, you buy into it and you assume that that must be the reason that's there.

• 1:28:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Ghosting as a young guy is, is more understandable than ghosting as a millennial, elder millennial, Gen X.

• 1:28:49Speaker 00

  One hundred percent.

• 1:28:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Because you would like ask girls out in person, you would to call their house and talk to their parents on a landline. Like, it's actually so crazy. Like, if you grew up and you were to pick up a landline and call and not know who was going to answer the phone, you should never be ghosting someone. I give a little more grace to like a twenty something dude, also just age in general. But like, I just think about that so much, like, guys that are thirty five plus, how the fuck?

• 1:29:13Speaker 00

  No, that's, it's embarrassing.

• 1:29:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  You grew up differently. You know, you should be better than this.

• 1:29:19Speaker 00

  I mean, a lot of these things are, I don't understand how it's not embarrassing to, to do these sort of things and to navigate the world, knowing that that's how, how you're treating other human beings.

• 1:29:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  I agree. What if you run into them? Like, you just want that on your conscience? I don't.

• 1:29:35Speaker 00

  Oh, God, I can't even imagine. Yeah.

• 1:29:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so we wrote down just a couple of red flags. We'll wrap up with this, just debatable red flag behavior. We want to see what you, what you think about it. Okay, what about somebody with no social media, no online presence?

• 1:29:47Speaker 00

  As being a red flag for a man with it?

• 1:29:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 1:29:50Speaker 00

  I think some, some guys just don't do social media. So, yeah, I think it's, I think it's fine at all, yeah. I, I don't see that being a red flag. I'd see, I mean, unless there's like, once again, it's a red flag only if the person is a red flag doing it. Right? If they're doing it because.

• 1:30:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Actively hiding.

• 1:30:06Speaker 00

  Or they can't, they can't trust themselves to be online because they're going to do, you know, liking stuff they're not supposed to like, or sending DMs or harassing people.

• 1:30:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:14Speaker 00

  Like, if that's the reason, but once again, that has nothing to do with not having a social media presence.

• 1:30:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Pete Huxley. He should not be online.

• 1:30:22Speaker 00

  Certain guys are probably better off not having any internet presence, yeah.

• 1:30:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're doing a green flag episode coming up and so many women prefer no, like, I think the red flag is the too much social media, like too many mirror selfies and the whole thing.

• 1:30:35Speaker 00

  It is, it's also, social media is a very weird place. I know this, as someone that's, I mean, obviously on there, but if I was a, if I had gotten this level of fame as a single guy, I'd like to believe I would have handled it well, but I'm in a much better space, like being in a secure relationship where I'm not having to, to do that, I do think, so I could see why that's definitely what could be a green flag.

• 1:30:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Preferring to split the bills fifty fifty all the time. Where'd you get this from?

• 1:31:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I've read it.

• 1:31:02Speaker 00

  No, that's a big one. The fifty fifty one is a huge manosphere talking point right now.

• 1:31:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  What do you mean? What are they saying?

• 1:31:07Speaker 00

  Oh, they're saying you should never pay for, some of them are even going as far as you shouldn't spend a cent on her for the first ninety days.

• 1:31:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  What?

• 1:31:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I see a lot of this.

• 1:31:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I thought it was, that seemed so contradictory to the alpha male.

• 1:31:17Rayna Greenberg?

  No, because they're like, women that want this are disgusting, they're using you.

• 1:31:22Speaker 00

  And it's, well, it's definitely, it's not a red flag.

• 1:31:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  This makes no sense to me.

• 1:31:26Speaker 00

  Here's one of the, I think there's nuance to this one, right? Because I think it's a red flag when, once again, you're doing it as a test, right? You're doing, and you're doing it as a surprise, right? I've invited you out to this dinner and I'm going to, but you know, I mentioned, I was broke when I met my wife, right? But I was, she knew I was broke, right? And so we did other things that didn't cost money. We went to poetry readings, we went to theater, like, of a community theater events, we went to out for coffee with each other, but the, I knew for a fact that I couldn't afford to take her out to luxurious restaurants, right? And so, and that was fine, because I was, when I was in my twenties and I, you know, she was, that's not why we're together, but it's, I wanted to spend money on her, though, you know? And what money I did have, I liked by, I liked showing up to see her with coffee, with her favorite coffee. I liked buying her, you know, for

• 1:32:11Speaker 00

  our first Christmas together, I, I went, once again, didn't have money, I wanted, but I wanted to get her a good gift, and I went to, I'm from San Francisco originally, and I went to all my favorite spots and got like a little knickknack for her, and it was just, I gave her like, I gave her my home was, was our, was our first Christmas gift I got her. The Christmas after that, I'm big on Christmases. At the time, but she, we went to an art show together and there was this painting she really liked on the wall. It's too expensive for me. I went up to the artist and I was like, hey, what can I give you? What's the lowest I can give you for that? And I, they, they liked my story. They gave it to me. I hid it in my closet for six months. And that was there, but you don't have, it's the, I don't think a lot of guys realize it's not about the money. It's about the mentality.

• 1:32:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  I thought this was really interesting. I've never told you. So I was talking to a good friend of ours who makes plenty of money, good looking guy, was really nice. I'm assuming his interactions with women on dating apps are always really pretty positive. He said that more often than not, he's seeing women in their profiles saying, I'm not splitting a bill with you. Don't even ask. He said he sees it constantly over and over and over again. And I'm, I'm wondering what men are doing on dates that has made women like have to put that out there.

• 1:33:13Speaker 00

  It's because of, it's the advice that's being given to do it.

• 1:33:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is blowing my mind. I didn't, I mean, I, I see it now. Again, I'm not in the manosphere. Maybe I should dab a little bit more.

• 1:33:22Speaker 00

  It's a dark place.

• 1:33:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't look and I, it's like, well, I can't watch Fox News. I guess you should know.

• 1:33:25Speaker 00

  I get tagged and sent so many videos that my algorithm on Instagram is just that as well.

• 1:33:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like I get too angry. I know what's going on over there. I don't need to watch it and let it get in my brain. But yeah, some women are like gold takers, but it's just, that's not most of it. It's just so crazy. Cause like the normal women and normal, healthy men, I think we all kind of know as if you're a man and you asked a woman out, just you pick up the tab for the couple of drinks you had.

• 1:33:51Speaker 00

  And also if, if I'm asking you out, if I'm inviting you out, when a company asks me to come meet with them or something like that, I'm not expecting to pay, right? You know, when I asked somebody, when I asked my wife to go somewhere with me, I was, when we were dating, even though I was broke, if I knew I was inviting her somewhere, I was still doing my best to pay for it. If I could, because I was inviting her to somewhere that she would not have gone to if I didn't do that.

• 1:34:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  And if you're a guy and you are dating a woman and you feel that like she never grabs for her wallet, she'll never pick up the coffees or the ice creams or the whatever, like she's really using you for your money, you'll know it and then end it.

• 1:34:28Speaker 00

  And that's, that's, that's fine. Then move on.

• 1:34:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:34:31Speaker 00

  Why would you even want to be there in that relationship if that's all that comes? Well, adding to that, I made a video on this a while back, kind of making fun of this idea and all the women were like, well. I don't want him to pay because then the expectation is there for something after and they get really pushy then well I bought you dinner. I bought you this nice thing. So a lot of the women in my comment sections were especially early on though. They're they're like, no, no, I'd rather go for coffee, which is a weird thing because that's also their fantasy or saying, take her for coffee, don't spend money on her. But they're like, I'd rather do that because then there's no expectation.

• 1:35:02Rayna Greenberg?

  There's a million ways to look at this. I mean, everybody has a different opinion about it. I if I'm never gonna see you again, if I go on a date with somebody and I don't like them, I all I put my card down.

• 1:35:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just the friend zone. Here's a 20.

• 1:35:12Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, I'm not fucking you if I put my card down. But I I don't want somebody to be on the hook on the hook for giving me money and I'm never gonna see you again.

• 1:35:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  But we don't go to dinner on first dates and we've we've done tons of content on this. I mean, that's just meet and see if you vibe.

• 1:35:26Speaker 00

  That's a hundred percent.

• 1:35:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  And how much is it if you each had two drinks, if you drink, if you do coffee, whatever, if you go on a walk, but like, how much really is it?

• 1:35:34Speaker 00

  But I I think that's the advice that most women are saying, like, at least from my comment sections as well. That's exactly what they're saying. But once again, if you're not listening to women and you're only listening to the the guys that are saying, no, they're they're gonna want you for this. And so this is how you catch them. Then this is how you'll find out about them, as as if it's shocking to expect that if you're asked on a date. And also, who made that norm that men pay on the first date? It wasn't women necessarily originally they were doing it. And so, I don't know, it's it's just, it's it's all, they they get caught up from this. It's men talking to other men and ignoring women.

• 1:36:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's so funny to think of these men that are like, women just want me for my money. And we're like, what money?

• 1:36:15Speaker 00

  I know, that's that's a guy.

• 1:36:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  If you are a guy with tons of money and you're not paying, that's even fucking weirder.

• 1:36:23Speaker 00

  That's why there's also the men is for talking point of you don't men don't want successful women, right? Because that takes away the one edge that they might have. In doing this, when the reality is who, why wouldn't you be attracted to someone that's successful, right? Wouldn't you, well, because of the fact that you have to offer something else.

• 1:36:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 1:36:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, you can't financially control them and you actually have to offer something else other than a paycheck.

• 1:36:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Okay, I like this one. Insisting on natural women, women that don't wear makeup. Have you seen this in the in the manosphere?

• 1:36:49Speaker 00

  I I haven't seen a ton of this one, but I. I do think I don't think most men know what they're talking about.

• 1:36:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that's so fascinating, men that are like, I would never let my girlfriend get botox. You would never know I had botox and I've had botox for 10 years and you're welcome.

• 1:37:04Speaker 00

  And when they're talking about natural, they're not actually meaning natural because they also are the ones that say, women are catfishing men. This is what you look like without makeup because they've never seen a woman in the morning. Right? Because it's usually they're, they're, yeah, they never spend the night, right? And so, or they run out. They don't know what they're saying, right? And it goes, but once again, their understanding of makeup is from other men's understanding of makeup.

• 1:37:24Rayna Greenberg?

  They don't know what they're talking about.

• 1:37:26Speaker 00

  But also, men wear makeup. They just don't call it makeup. Like I have a beard, right? This is my, this is male makeup, right? If I were to shave off my beard, I li- I wear, I wear this makeup because it gives me more of a jawline, right? Same reason any woman would do certain things. And so if I shave it off, of course, somebody would be like, you look so different because that's what we do.

• 1:37:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. Oh, well, what a convo. This was great. Yeah. Thanks so much.

• 1:37:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, we're on the right side of the internet because we got served your content just randomly and we love it.

• 1:37:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Any final thoughts? Think there's anything we missed or do you feel good to wrap up?

• 1:37:56Speaker 00

  I think we're good to go. Hopefully, hopefully people don't get too angry at you.

• 1:37:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, no, no. Our audience loves this. They really, really do. And like a lot of men that we've had on say that and there's never any pushback. So we have a really open, intelligent audience.

• 1:38:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, thank you for this and tell people where they can find you, your podcast, any, any other things you're working on.

• 1:38:14Speaker 00

  Sure. Uh, our podcast is, uh, Mr. Pick Me and the Man Hater where we kind of really kind of, it's a comedy podcast where we make fun of all the toxic guys on the internet and, uh, we go off on tangents. We do get serious sometimes, but usually we try to keep it very lighthearted. I'm the speech prof on Instagram is my main one. I'm also on all the other ones, but my name's a little different on all of them because I didn't plan on being a content creator. It was accidentally happened and my name was taken everywhere, but look for the speech prof and you can usually find me somewhere.

• 1:38:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. Amazing. Well, thank you for being here.

• 1:38:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  This was great. Thank you so much. And you guys know where to find us, girlsgottaeat.com, girlsgottaeepodcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess, Reina is reina.greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday.

• 1:38:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a good week, guys.