Cari Farver | The Pattern Everyone Missed (Part 3)

On November 16, 2012, 37-year-old Cari Farver was reported missing by her mother, Nancy, after she suddenly stopped showing up for work and answering calls. No one had seen Cari since the morning of November 13, but her phone was active, sending messages and posting online, making it seem like she hadn’t disappeared at all. Still, Nancy was adamant something was wrong. The messages didn’t sound like Cari. As detectives began looking into Cari’s disappearance, they started receiving reports that she was stalking and threatening multiple people. For more than two years, the behavior continued, growing more intense and dangerous than anyone could have imagined. And by the time detectives finally uncovered what was really going on, they were left trying to untangle a case so complicated, and so bizarre, that prosecutors worried a jury wouldn’t believe it was true.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derek Levasseur.

• 0:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And we are diving into part three of the Carrie Farver case today.

• 0:21Derrick Levasseur?

  You know what's weird, though? Like, I feel like inception right now because as we're recording this, we're recording it early, you and I are literally standing together right now at CrimeCon, talking to some of you guys.

• 0:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I don't get the inception reference because I never really did get inception, like-

• 0:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Inception's awesome.

• 0:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  A world instead of a world or something.

• 0:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, like, I feel like we're inside the world we're talking to because right now, there might be people who are sitting at CrimeCon waiting to come downstairs to hang out with us, but are also watching our video.

• 0:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And did anybody get inception?

• 0:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Everybody did.

• 0:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, if you got it, you're just pretending to get it.

• 0:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Have you? You gotta watch it again. I don't want to make it about inception. You gotta watch it again. It's really, really good. But yeah, if you're at CrimeCon, we're super excited. As of today, if you're listening on audio, it's Friday out there. And so today, we are doing our live show, which is going to be a really fascinating story. Stephanie's familiar with, um, what's the name of that case?

• 1:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Stephanie Wassalition.

• 1:17Derrick Levasseur?

  I can never say that last name, but-

• 1:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's hard, but I've said so many times. It was hard at first, but I've said it so many times.

• 1:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Wassalition.

• 1:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Second name Wassalition.

• 1:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Wassalition.

• 1:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wassalition.

• 1:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Wassalition?

• 1:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep.

• 1:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, and her daughter Nikki.

• 1:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep.

• 1:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Right? She's going to be there with us. And then on Saturday, we're going to have, we're doing, we're officiating a wedding-

• 1:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, we are.

• 1:36Derrick Levasseur?

  For one of you guys, a Crime Weekly fan who's going to be out there. And we also are doing something super secretive that we have been keeping under wraps. It's going to be in a later episode, but we're going to be doing that as well.

• 1:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Saturday morning, yep.

• 1:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, we think you guys are going to be really surprised by that. So a lot of good things in the works. And, uh, yeah, now we can dive into the episode.

• 1:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, so I'm going to give you a quick recap, all right? Because it's part three, but a lot's happened. And, and I remember at the end of, um, part two, Derek was like, hey, this is, this feels like where it should end. Like, they've identified the person. And but but it's not because there's two more parts because it's a case within a case.

• 2:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's crazy to me.

• 2:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's inception.

• 2:17Derrick Levasseur?

  We were saying it. Yeah, there you go. Another reference. And we were saying it on C W N like it's it's interesting because I did think that was going to be the end. And not only is it not the end, but there's a part four to this. And I was saying in Crime Weekly News, how is there a part four to this story? We know who did it. We've known who did it for a while now. And yet you keep proving me wrong that there is so much more that we haven't covered.

• 2:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, Liz can't go out like that. All right.

• 2:41Derrick Levasseur?

  I feel like she's going out guns blazing, but.

• 2:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's complexities to Liz. Liz is an inception.

• 2:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, all right. Well, we'll see.

• 2:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, for more than two years, 37 year old Carrie Farver appeared to be missing but alive, right? Her phone stayed active, her Facebook page continued posting, and the people closest to her, including Dave Krupa, the man she had briefly dated, he was receiving thousands of texts, emails, and threats that seemed to be coming directly from Carrie. So police believed Carrie had become obsessed with Dave, which caused her to launch a relentless stalking campaign against him and his sort of trauma bond to girlfriend Liz Goiler and anyone else who got close to him, like anyone else he would date. But Carrie's family never believed it. They knew something was wrong. By 2015, after years of unanswered questions, detectives Ryan Avis and Jim Doty reopened Carrie's case

• 3:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  and started from the beginning. And they brought in Digital Forensics Administrator Anthony Kava to help. And as they reviewed phone data, emails, and thousands of digital files, disturbing inconsistencies began to emerge. Then they found something that changed everything, and that was a photo of Carrie's missing Ford Explorer on Liz's phone. And this was taken after Carrie vanished, but before the vehicle had been recovered. And if you remember, it was recovered in Dave Krupa's apartment complex parking lot. And it was covered in snow and everything. And Dave was like, it definitely was not there before the blizzard.

• 4:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, right. So that's not good for Liz. And that kind of ties it together where how would you have access to this photo? If nobody knew where the car was?

• 4:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  So detectives then came to a shocking conclusion. Liz Goiler was not another victim in Carrie's stalking campaign. They believed Liz had been impersonating Carrie, stalking both herself, like Liz was stalking herself, and Dave, and was responsible for Carrie's disappearance and suspected murder. And for the first time in more than 900 days, which please understand, it's over two years, basically.

• 4:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 4:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's in cra- it's crazy. It's just incredibly crazy. Finally, after two years, a thorough investigation was underway.

• 4:46Derrick Levasseur?

  And I, and I will say this, it's easy for us to sit here and go, yeah, this is, this is obviously what happened. But I'll tell you internally for Doty and Avis, this is something you have to be very certain about because essentially what you're doing is you're accusing the quote unquote victim, right? And this is someone who probably had a lot of sympathy coming their way, someone who everyone felt bad for. So for you to turn around and go, wait a second, you're no victim. You're actually the offender. You better be right because this is the type of thing. If you're wrong, you're getting demoted to basically the crossing guard duty.

• 5:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, especially after two years of nothing happening and, and other police officers being on it, Avis and Doty are probably like, wait, how did they miss this?

• 5:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes. And, and that's the other thing, right? That's a great dynamic you're bringing up. Like there's been other people who've worked this case and completely missed it. So now you're not only accusing the victim, but you're second guessing the work of your peers. And for us not, obviously it has to be done, but we also have to acknowledge that dynamic. And regardless of what workforce you're in, it applies everywhere. When you go over to your colleague and you say, hey, I think you got this one wrong, it can create some problems. And so you're seeing these people every day. So shout out to Doty and Avis for doing the right thing.

• 6:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Avis and Doty, dynamic duo.

• 6:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. That sounds like a TV show.

• 6:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. I was thinking, I was like, like a company, you know? Shout out to Avis and Doty.

• 6:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Avis is a company.

• 6:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Rental car.

• 6:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. So detectives Avis and Doty looked closely at the timeline. They tried to figure out exactly when Carrie had been murdered because by now they believed, yeah, she would have to be deceased in order for Liz to be impersonating her and having access to her social media and her phone and her car. So as we've talked about, on Monday, November 12th, 2012, Carrie started staying with Dave. She was working on a special project at work and she was having her mom watch her son Max for a little while. So she went to the office that day. She left later that At night sometime between 8:00 PM and 9:00 PM. Records from her work laptop and phone showed that at 6:15 the following morning, Carrie called work from Dave's place to provide an update.

• 6:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  That would end up being the last time anyone ever heard Carrie's voice. Then at 6:39 AM, so not long after she calls work, her laptop logged onto Facebook and then logged off just three minutes later. So Carrie should have gone into work within the next few hours, but she never showed up. There was no additional data until 9:54 AM when Carrie's phone logged onto Facebook and Dave Krupel was immediately unfriended. Then, just a few minutes later, Dave got that unexpected text, remember? Where he said Carrie texted him when he was at work? And she was like, "Hey, we should move in together." And he was like, "No." And almost immediately, another message came from Carrie saying like, "Well, I hate you and we're done. I don't want to see you anymore. Don't call me."

• 7:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  So detectives Avis and Doty noted that while no one ever heard Carrie's voice again, her phone continued reaching out to people. The problem was, these messages sounded completely different. So I almost, when I'm looking at the timeline, 6:39 AM, her laptop logs onto Facebook, logged off a few minutes later. Carrie should have gone into work within the next few hours. She never showed up.

• 8:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 8:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then it was 9:54 when her phone logged into Facebook and then unfriended Dave. This is when, I believe, she's no longer in charge.

• 8:15Derrick Levasseur?

  This is already in possession of the phone. So we're looking at a window from 6:40 to essentially 9:50.

• 8:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:21Derrick Levasseur?

  The window where whatever happened occurred.

• 8:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. These messages that are going out after this do not sound like Carrie. She's not the sweet, caring person that everyone knew. In her place was someone mean, angry, and harassing people in ways that were completely out of character. No one who knew Carrie well, at least, believed it was actually her behind those messages. Because at this point, Dave doesn't really know Carrie all that well, you know? He thinks he does, but they've been dating for a few months. He likes her, but he's also seen that, you know, people can switch up on you. So the people who knew Carrie well, though, they knew something was wrong. But like we talked about before, the original detectives on the case did not agree. Basically. On the timeline they had so far, detectives Ava and Doty believed that Liz had killed Carrie sometime after she called into work and before 9:54 a.m.

• 9:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  When activity resumed on her phone. Liz then tried to become Carrie, but Liz didn't just impersonate her. Detectives believed she killed Carrie, then used that impersonation to stalk Dave, Carrie's family, and even herself over the next three years.

• 9:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow, sicko.

• 9:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so Ava and Doty had made progress in building out this new theory, but they still had no idea exactly how or where Carrie had been murdered. Had Liz broken into Dave's apartment and done something to Carrie there, which would have been my theory. Did Liz wait until Carrie walked out to her vehicle to go to work, or was it something else entirely? And at that point, they weren't sure.

• 9:42Derrick Levasseur?

  This is definitely a question I have too at this point, right? Like it's I, I, you would think it would happen in Dave's apartment because that's how Liz would get access to her. But then you would think forensically, there'd be something there at minimum because Dave's not in on it, up to this point at least. As far as I know, Dave would have come into his apartment and seen some signs of struggle, something that was out of place. That wasn't like that before he left, so.

• 10:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, no, because remember the first date they had, Dave brought Carrie back to his apartment. And they were, you know, like putting on the candles, drinking the wine. And then Liz shows up and she's like, I need my stuff. And Dave's like, oh, it's just a crazy girl I used to date. Like, let me take care of this. And then Carrie walked out past Liz. So now A, Liz knows what Carrie looks like. Carrie knows what Liz looks like. Carrie knows in some context who Liz is. So maybe Liz shows up, knocks on the door. And Carrie answers it and she's like, I forgot my coat here or I need my medicine.

• 10:37Derrick Levasseur?

  She goes in the apartment?

• 10:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so Carrie's like, okay, yeah, come in like, because what's she gonna do? What's she gonna say? This isn't her apartment, you know?

• 10:43Derrick Levasseur?

  And she would know if there was security cameras or anything there because she's been there before. Okay.

• 10:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you're right. The smartest way would be for Liz to wait for Carrie to leave.

• 10:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 10:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then be maybe waiting in her Explorer. Because now we know she has a picture of the Explorer and the Explorer goes missing with Carrie.

• 10:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. Wait in the backseat or whatever. Yeah, I'm interested to see how that plays out because we always thought. Whatever happened, happened in the proximity of Dave's apartment, but nothing was out of the ordinary. No blood, nothing. I don't know. I'm, I'm, that's one of the parts I'm interested to hear about.

• 11:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Liz would have to be watching Dave and Carrie pretty closely to know that Carrie was spending the night at Dave's apartment for more than one night because she was staying there for a project.

• 11:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Not a shock. She's stalking this dude for sure. And probably stalking Carrie as well.

• 11:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Stalking Carrie. She knows where she works and everything, right? So as detectives kept digging, they learned that on Thursday, November 15th, Liz filled out an application for Carrie's job using her legal name. So this is two days after she goes missing where now Liz is filling out a job application at the place where Carrie works.

• 11:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Crazy. Crazy. I don't know what the rationale is. I'm looking, I'm looking forward to hearing that excuse.

• 11:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the following day, Carrie's mom Nancy reported Carrie missing. Then just one day after that, Nancy received that strange text from Carrie's phone with a photo of the $5,000 starter check made out to Carrie with bedroom sat written on the memo line. The message said Nancy should let a friend come pick up Carrie's furniture. Nancy said no and passed all of that information along to the original investigators. But like so many other things in this case, it didn't go anywhere. Now with fresh eyes on the case, detectives looked at that check again and they immediately noticed something that stood out. The person who signed it was none other than Shayna Goiler, who we know as Liz. Remember that's Liz's real first name, but she goes by Liz.

• 12:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  So to detectives, the whole thing was really bizarre. Liz had tried to get Carrie's job and she used her real legal name and now she appeared to be trying to get her furniture too. And she's signing with her real legal name. So it almost felt like Liz believed she could somehow step into Carrie's life and take over.

• 12:50Derrick Levasseur?

  As herself.

• 12:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  As herself because it was even stranger that Liz had done all of that using her real name and somehow, once again, the first detectives on the case never put two and two together.

• 13:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Call him out. Phillips.

• 13:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 13:03Derrick Levasseur?

  And amongst other, I mean Phillips, man, he's-

• 13:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Sergeant Phillips.

• 13:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Sergeant Phillips, who is, from what we can tell, in a leadership or managerial role overseeing Doty and Avis.

• 13:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  As far as we know.

• 13:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Let's get some uncomfortable conversations, huh?

• 13:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. So based on everything they were uncovering, Avis and Doty felt like they were finally on the right path to figuring out what happened to Carrie, but feeling confident and having enough evidence to arrest someone for a murder are two very different things. Like you said,

• 13:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Not what you know.

• 13:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's been a victim. She's been a victim for two years. A horribly harassed victim. Somebody tried to set her house on fire. They called her kids ugly. Okay. Bad, bad stuff happening here.

• 13:41Derrick Levasseur?

  I'll tell you what, it's, it's scary. I've never had something like that come up while on the job where it turns out that a victim was actually a, uh,

• 13:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  A perpetrator, yeah.

• 13:50Derrick Levasseur?

  The only example I have is traitors and is I called out a guy on the show and I was very certain about it, but I was sweating bullets because I knew if I was wrong, it was going to be one of the most embarrassing moments in reality TV as a former detective. So the, the, the risk here and the, the weight of what they're doing is so much higher than that. And I was shitting bricks. So I can't imagine what this is like. Not only to call this person out, but to essentially say, hey, boss, Sergeant Phillips, you did a terrible job on this case.

• 14:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I mean, we have seen multiple instances in true crime.

• 14:28Derrick Levasseur?

  All the time.

• 14:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Where the victim turns out to be the perpetrator, right? Uh, Casey Anthony allegedly, in my opinion, Gypsy Rose Blanchard, what the Sherry Papini, right?

• 14:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 14:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Sherry Papini.

• 14:39Derrick Levasseur?

  To a lesser degree, we're just talking about it, but like Mackenzie Shrilla.

• 14:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. All of these cases where, or something happens to the children and then it turns out to be the parents who did it. And they were, you know, sitting there crying in front of the cameras, Chris Watts. Okay. This is pretty common.

• 14:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 14:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it was very strange, but at that point detectives, Avis and Doty, they still didn't have enough to charge Liz. And the last thing they wanted to do was tip her off that she was under suspicion. So they kept digging. All right. So that's kind of where I think they did the right thing here because if I was Liz, even from the beginning, when I was dealing with Phillips and, and all the other people, I would have been nervous. Like, how are they not putting two and two together? Like, how are they not figuring this out? And these two detectives are kind of picking up the case and they're not really Lys or anyone that they're looking into it now because she thinks at this point she's in the clear. She's gotten away with this for two years.

• 15:33Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know how big this department was. I almost have a feeling that Avis and Doty may not have been directly under Phillips and were working this laterally.

• 15:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  I almost wonder if they told anybody that they were doing it.

• 15:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they they might have been just doing their thing and they may have had a different.

• 15:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe they didn't want to alert anyone in the department either.

• 15:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Because they don't know who knows and who's in on it or whatever. So they keep it under wraps. They work it kind of laterally with whatever other cases they're working until they start to actually get some substance to what they're thinking and then.

• 16:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Especially when they find out someone in the digital forensics department is kind of connected to Liz, right? So now they're like, okay, who else is a mole here?

• 16:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, I agree.

• 16:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who else is a traitor?

• 16:12Derrick Levasseur?

  I would love to talk to them because I bet this is a story within a story. That there was some stuff going on internally that that would be like, yeah, that would be a frigging Netflix special where there was some, there was some power dynamics there that Avis and Doty had to navigate as they were doing this. It sounds like.

• 16:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  I feel like there always is anyways.

• 16:29Derrick Levasseur?

  There, there is. There absolutely is. And it's unfortunate because these are, there's people's lives on the line here. It shouldn't be like that. This should be the job it shouldn't be.

• 16:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is honestly why I don't like working in kind of systems like this. Where like what we do is great because it's like you and me and we are responsible for everything that happens. And there's not like some hierarchy we have to check with or be careful or tiptoe around. I don't, I don't function well in that. And I feel like in general, the results of anything that comes out of a system like that are always watered down and sort of based on politics or like work dynamics. I don't like it, but we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 17:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know what's weird? People will sleep badly for years and then they kind of just decide that's normal. Like something unhealthy becomes normalized.

• 17:21Derrick Levasseur?

  I was there. I was 100% there before we got Helix waking up sore. I'm overheated and I'm just tossing around all night. And I'm thinking, ah, you know, it's just me. I'm a bad sleeper.

• 17:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  When we switched to Helix, the difference was immediate. I stopped waking up. Constantly during the night, which is also a big thing because I'm getting so much better quality and quantity of sleep. My back feels better. I actually started feeling rested in the morning instead of exhausted before the day even started. And it was kind of like being a kid again, like bright eyed, bushy tailed, ready to go.

• 17:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And one thing that I think is underrated is the cooling upgrade. That really helps me as well. I'm a hot sleeper. So having that, I feel like I sleep better at night just because of it.

• 18:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  What I really like about Helix is they don't do the one mattress fits everyone thing. They have over 20 different mattress models. So whether you sleep on your side, back, stomach, whatever, there's something that actually fits your sleep style. I mean, we both have the midnight lux, I think.

• 18:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And we've had it for years and it's still, there's no like sag in it, nothing.

• 18:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. And the process is super easy. You're going to take this sleep quiz, which takes a couple of minutes. Well, do you sleep on your side? Do you like a firmer mattress, et cetera, et cetera. And then it ships right to your door for free. The setup takes minutes and you get a 120 night sleep trial, which means you can sleep on it at home for 120 nights. If you don't know by then, whether or not it's for you, we got bigger problems. Plus you're going to get a limited lifetime warranty. So there's really no pressure and Helix has these lifetime warranties on all of their mattresses, which is cool.

• 18:47Derrick Levasseur?

  And definitely check out the cooler upgrade option. That's someone, if you're a warmer sleeper, you're going to love it. It made a huge difference for me. And right now, if you're looking to upgrade your sleep, it's a great time to do it. All you have to do is head over to helixsleep.com/crimeweekly for 27% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com/crimeweekly for 27% off site wide.

• 19:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So like we talked about in part two, when the digital forensics guy, Cabal, went through Liz's phone data, which she'd let them download, he found a photo of Carrie's Ford Explorer during the period it had been missing before it was officially found. So Avis and Doty decided to go back to the vehicle evidence and see if they could tie Liz to the Ford Explorer more directly. Now, previously, remember, a single fingerprint had been recovered from inside the Explorer. Everything else was wiped down. Carrie's fingerprints weren't even found in the Explorer, but the single fingerprint had been found on a mint container. And they said that the fingerprints weren't on file, meaning nobody had left the fingerprint who had been in

• 19:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  the system, who had committed a crime and been fingerprinted. So detectives had that print tested against Liz's fingerprints and it came back as a match. Surprise, surprise to no one.

• 20:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Love it.

• 20:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which, once again, though, this could have been done when the Ford Explorer was found. Like, this could have, this could have been done.

• 20:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, at that point, they, Liz wasn't on the radar.

• 20:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but how did, how did Avis and Doty get Liz's fingerprints, right? If they're not asking her, it makes it sound like they already had access to them.

• 20:26Derrick Levasseur?

  They could have had access to them, or again, maybe there's more to this story where they met up with her, or they found something that she was holding on to a mug.

• 20:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or they like sat outside her house and waited for her to throw a coffee cup out or something.

• 20:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Something like that, but they could have her come in and say, hey, we just need a little bit more information on this case. We're trying to track down Carrie. We know she's stalking you. You know, you put a couple bottles of water, some mugs in front of her, whatever. You do something where she's going to have to touch something. Or you even just say directly, hey, we need to take your prints, just as exclusionary prints. You know, just so we have them on file, so if we find your print anywhere, we can rule it out as a.

• 21:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  What would you feel if you found out that somehow the police department already had Liz's fingerprints at some time around when the Ford Explorer was taken into custody or shortly after?

• 21:15Derrick Levasseur?

  It'd just be an oversight.

• 21:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  That would be, would it be an oversight?

• 21:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, oversight in the, like, a bad way, right? Like, that's, they should have done that. It should have been something that was ruled out to say, okay, just, we're just canceling everywhere. The same way you cancel out detectives' prints in crime scene texts that are on scene. You do that to say, hey, we know for certain that this print doesn't belong to anybody else that we've already talked to.

• 21:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 21:37Derrick Levasseur?

  So, no, that'd be an oversight. I would want to know how they got that print, because I don't think she has a previous criminal history, so.

• 21:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, they, she didn't, right? Because they said, well, they weren't in the system.

• 21:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. She wasn't in AFIS, so I don't know how they would have gotten them.

• 21:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Here's what I'm thinking. Because she was the quote-unquote victim of all this stalking. So remember, the fire was set at her house. And I wonder if they came in, like arson investigators, and fingerprinted the house to see who, who set the fire, and then obviously they have to take Liz's fingerprints to exclude her fingerprints because she lives there. So maybe that's how they got the fingerprints.

• 22:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, exactly. The exclusionary prints, just have her come in and. Say, hey, you know, we just were doing the crime scene stuff and we just got to have your prints on file. So we can say, yeah, it's definitely, this isn't a suspect print because that belongs to Liz.

• 22:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, but I don't think they did that like surreptitiously, like we're going to get her fingerprints so we can compare them. I think that was already done as part of the arson investigation because it would have had to have been. It's a criminal case.

• 22:34Derrick Levasseur?

  How would they know if they had an unidentified print that they didn't ask her about or didn't get a comparison print?

• 22:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, so listen, the fire getting set at Liz's house and then the, the Avis and Doty checking the fingerprints are two separate things. So the fire gets set at the house and Liz is saying Carrie set this fire, right? So they have to go in and fingerprint it anyways, like even the insurance company will have to.

• 22:57Derrick Levasseur?

  So you're saying they got those prints out of my file?

• 22:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Those prints and then they had to say, Liz, we need your fingerprints because we have to exclude whatever fingerprints are yours. So we can figure out which ones aren't yours. So we can see who was in your house. So they already had her fingerprints on file. So now Doty and Avis are able to pull those and check them.

• 23:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, if that's what happened, that's again, why wasn't that done initially?

• 23:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why wasn't it done initially? Right? Or as soon as they had Liz's fingerprints, why wouldn't somebody be like, hey, let's check that against a random fingerprint that, you know what I mean? So that's interesting, but we now have the match of Liz's fingerprints in Carrie's Ford Explorer. The only fingerprint there on a random mint thing that nobody.

• 23:38Derrick Levasseur?

  And someone she does not have a prior relationship with, no excuse for her fingerprint being inside that vehicle.

• 23:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Somebody who claims they're being harassed by her. So what the hell were you doing in her car?

• 23:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 23:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it still wasn't enough for charges though. Okay. And so Avis and Doty, they kept investigating and they learned everything they could about Liz and her background. And this is when the story starts to unravel. This is when the real darkness rears its head. So Shayna Elizabeth Goiler was born on June 28th, 1975 in Kalamazoo, Michigan to her mother Dee and father Al. Around a year later, after her birth, Dee and Al welcomed a son named George, but things were not good at home. Al was abusive and by early 1978, things had gotten bad enough that Liz and George were removed from the home. Then just a few months later. Tragedy struck again when Liz's mother Dee was hit by a car and killed by the driver.

• 24:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So this was especially heartbreaking because she had just broken off things with her abusive husband Al and she was in the process of getting her kids back. In fact, at the time she was killed, Dee had been walking to a laundromat to wash their bedding because she was going to be having her children live with her again. It's very sad, actually. Now, following their mother's death, Liz and George entered foster care. And Liz later alleged that she was abused in at least one of the homes she was placed in. Eventually, when Liz was around four or five years old, she ended up with a family in Battle Creek, Michigan, where she would end up staying. And not much is known about the rest of Liz's childhood. What we do know is that when Liz was barely 20 years old, she married her first husband.

• 25:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  They did not have children and they divorced within two years. By that point, it was 1997 and Liz was 22 years old and working at a plastic factory. She soon began dating a fellow coworker named Ray. Now, things were fine with Ray for a short time, but Ray quickly realized that Liz was unreasonably jealous about female coworkers. For example, one time Ray had an innocent conversation with a woman at work and Liz snapped at him, asking, quote, "What did that bitch want?" End quote. This is something every man that Liz dated would later report, that she was incredibly jealous. But Ray really liked Liz and by that point, they'd already been living together, so it felt easier to just keep going with the relationship.

• 26:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Less than a year into dating, Liz got pregnant and Ray bought a house for them to raise their family in. He expected Liz to be happy because he was settling down with her. They were having children. They were having a home they could build this family in. But Liz wasn't happy. So instead of moving into the new place with Ray, Liz moved into the home of a man named Neil. And she said Neil was just a roommate, but Ray didn't believe that, which is kind of crazy because it's very hypocritical for Liz to be mad that Ray's talking to a female coworker. Yeah, she's living with a guy. But then she's like, "I'm pregnant with your child and you bought a house for us to live in." Been together, but I'm gonna live with my roommate Neil.

• 26:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, talk about a double standard.

• 26:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. So obviously after the move, things became complicated. Sometimes Liz would stay with Ray, her boyfriend. Sometimes she stayed with Neil, her quote unquote roommate.

• 26:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Roommate, the roommate.

• 26:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  The roommate and.

• 26:55Derrick Levasseur?

  The one they told you not to worry about.

• 26:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, yeah, she's like, well, it's always the most, the extremely jealous ones who are also kind of doing something, right?

• 27:03Derrick Levasseur?

  They say that. Why are they extremely jealous? Or why are they extremely possessive?

• 27:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's projections, because like, they know what they're doing, yeah.

• 27:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly. They know the ins and outs. They know how easy it is for them to lie to someone's face and to cheat. And so when they see their partner being around people of the opposite sex, it's like, oh, well, I know what you're doing because I'm doing it.

• 27:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not always. I will say, to be fair, and I want to be fair, not always, sometimes when, when someone's been with someone who lied and cheated. And, you know, they got gaslit for it with for years and then they found out that everything they thought was true was true. That can cause some like.

• 27:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this could, there could be some scar tissue there, but I think, I think more times than not, i- if you are. You almost are, should be a little naive to these ins and outs because you haven't experienced it, but when you're very familiar with it, I do think there's something to be said for. Thinking everyone's like you.

• 27:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm. Oh, yeah. That's a human condition, actually. Yeah, yeah. Thinking everyone thinks the same as you and, yes. Exactly. So, so, so sometimes Liz is with Ray, her boyfriend, who she's having a baby with. And then sometimes she's with her quote unquote roommate Neil, and other times she would stay at a women's shelter. So at one point, Ray started wondering, is this baby even mine, you know? But when their son Cody was born, those doubts quickly disappeared because Cody looked exactly like Ray. So Ray was like, all right, this is, this is.

• 28:25Derrick Levasseur?

  All right, it's mine.

• 28:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's gotta be mine. I mean, unless. Maybe Neil looked like Ray.

• 28:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Neil looked just like Ray, and she has a type.

• 28:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, it's like, oh, Cody's got brown hair and brown eyes, just like me, Ray. But Neil also has brown hair and brown eyes. So, you know, it's a baby. They're babies. We don't really know. But Ray loved Cody instantly and wanted to be around him as much as possible. But Liz kept him from the baby, who by that point, she was clearly raising with a roommate, Neil. It was obvious that Neil and Liz were dating. And over the next few months, Ray only got to see Cody a handful of times. And instead of letting Ray help raise his son, Liz had other people caring for Cody, who was colicky. Cody was colicky and, you know, cried a lot. And, you know, it's a hard thing to deal with a baby like that. And probably Cody, as a colicky baby, would want to be with his mother or father.

• 29:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  But Liz was like, no, I'm gonna make sure that Ray doesn't get to see his child as often as he would like. And Liz also had other people paying her bills, too. And this would soon become another theme with Liz. She always seemed to have someone doing something for her. She always seemed to have more than one man in her life. Sadly, in January of 1999, tragedy struck when Cody died. And he was just five months old. His cause of death was ruled shaken baby syndrome. And Liz's boyfriend Neil was arrested. At that time, though, many people questioned whether Neil was actually responsible. They didn't think he was capable of killing Cody. He had helped care for babies in the past, including his own. And people who knew him described him as very caring.

• 30:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  And because of that, some believed it was much more likely that Liz herself was responsible.

• 30:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Considering the context of what we're talking about here and what it appears she's capable of, I think, I think those assumptions are valid.

• 30:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know. That's rough. That's hard. Why did they blame Neil? There had to have been some evidence.

• 30:22Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know what the context was behind that case, but I would imagine... In many circumstances, when you have a woman there with a boyfriend who's not the father of the child, more than likely, it's going to be the stepparent who has the capacity to kill, kill that child because it's not their own. And you look at Liz, and I'm sure she's a good actor. We know she's a good actor. She puts on a front where maybe she did it, put the baby back in the crib, and now Neil doesn't have an alibi, doesn't have an excuse. So

• 30:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe she made Neil believe he had done it, right?

• 30:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe.

• 30:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  We know she's manipulative.

• 30:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Or maybe he did. I don't know. But, you know, we all believe, I mean, it's not a secret by this point, we believe that Liz murdered Carrie.

• 31:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, we do.

• 31:05Derrick Levasseur?

  So she's clearly capable of taking life.

• 31:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. And she's also seems to be kind of selfish, right?

• 31:11Derrick Levasseur?

  A hundred percent. And maybe this baby to her, Cody, was quote unquote, a nuisance in her mind.

• 31:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  He was colicky. You know how hard a colicky baby is to

• 31:21Derrick Levasseur?

  She wanted to be free.

• 31:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 31:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Allah, Casey Anthony, wants to be free, wants to be able to do, go out and do what she wants, and there's something standing in her way, her child.

• 31:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, and I mean, we know how nice she is to her own children that we, that she had when she, you know, was finally trying to capture Dave, and she's sending him messages like, look at these ugly children. Even you were like, whoa, I could never, you know, even in, in that scenario.

• 31:45Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, it's like, that's bad karma.

• 31:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's not, that's not good. So, yeah, I agree. There's, there's something going on there. And this was not just a theory that people were like, you know, whispering on the outskirts, the theory that Liz was responsible for her child Cody's death. It even came up during trial when Neil's attorneys argued that Liz was the one who had killed Cody.

• 32:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, surprise, surprise.

• 32:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then Liz testified and read a series of letters. She claimed Neil had written to her from prison. The letters were well-written, and they talked about how much Neil loved her. And they also asked Liz if she would take the blame for Neil so he wouldn't have to go to jail for Cody's death. But the problem with Liz's testimony was that Neil had a learning disability. And according to his family, he was incapable of writing such long, eloquent letters. They did not believe the letters were real. And once again, given what we know about Liz and her, her seemingly like very, you know, quick penchant to

• 32:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  impersonate people and write messages from people who she is not, you know, to pretending to be other people.

• 32:53Derrick Levasseur?

  And she appears to be a pathological liar.

• 32:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  To get what she wants, yes. That's, that's pretty likely. I would say that's definitely likely those letters were not.

• 33:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Now I'm not too much of a stretch here.

• 33:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, those letters were not from Neil. So Neil's family and the people who knew him, they were like, no, we don't think Neil wrote those letters. Just like Carrie's family was like, she's not writing those messages. But the jury believed that Neil had written the letters. And in the end, Neil was convicted and spent nearly 10 years in prison. And to this day, multiple people, including Neil's family and Cody's father Ray, and Cody's father Ray, believe that Liz was actually the one responsible for Cody's death.

• 33:27Derrick Levasseur?

  And well, now they know about all this other stuff, too.

• 33:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's pretty damning, I think, because Ray has a, a motive or a reason, it would be understandable for him to be mad at Neil and not like Neil. Not even if it's logical, just like this is another man and my girlfriend who was carrying my baby was living with him and they were definitely dating and something was going on and then this man was raising my child and this man was in, you know, the vicinity when my child was killed. And if I'd been there, like I should have been, this wouldn't have happened. So he has a reason to really not like Neil. But he's defending Neil here. And he's like, yeah, Neil didn't do that. It was Liz. So that's interesting.

• 34:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I, I think, uh, my money is on Liz.

• 34:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, if you, if you had to, if you, you asked me, like, you gotta say, do you think it was Neil or Liz? I'm gonna say Liz.

• 34:16Derrick Levasseur?

  I see, I say Liz. I think he was colicky. I think he was a tougher baby to handle. She wanted to be out there doing her own thing. She probably got sick of Neil, just like she got sick of everybody else.

• 34:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  She got sick of Ray and, yeah.

• 34:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. And I think at some point.

• 34:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Seems like she gets sick of the men who want to be with her, right?

• 34:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, right. Yeah, exactly. They gotta play hard to get. But once frustrations rose and she got angry, I think something happened. And I don't think she was that upset about it.

• 34:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 34:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  I feel like skincare has gotten so overwhelming lately. Every time you open social media, someone's telling you that you need 17 different products layered in a very specific order.

• 34:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and for me, honestly, I want to make sure that I have a product that has been tested, has been researched, because like you said, you're putting it on your skin, and so it starts at first like a chemistry experiment where you're just trying to figure things out, and I don't like that. I don't like playing games or guessing with my body.

• 35:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's exactly why I was drawn to OneSkin, because it's not about hype or complicated routines, it's about actual science, and it actually works. So the company was founded by PhD longevity researchers, and instead of just trying to temporarily cover up signs of aging, they focus on what's happening beneath the surface.

• 35:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's where the OS1 peptide comes in.

• 35:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, exactly, and this is the whole science of it. So what OneSkin figured out was there's these things called sentient cells, and they actually also call them zombie cells, and these are the major driver of visible skin aging. So OneSkin's OS1 proprietary peptide, it's designed to target specifically these cells. So instead of just moisturizing the surface, you're supporting your skin barrier and collagen at a deeper level.

• 35:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and I'll tell you guys, no joke, Stephanie talks about OneSkin all the time. She was just saying how she missed her month because she forgot to change her credit card. So this is definitely something you're using, right Stephanie?

• 36:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're going to Vegas next week for CrimeCon, and what if I don't have it with me? What am I gonna do? I love their eye cream so much, it has been the only thing that's really worked and shown a visible difference in my eyes. I can say that hands down.

• 36:22Derrick Levasseur?

  The product's great, and it's not just Stephanie saying it, it has a lot of studies behind it. They've been peer reviewed in clinical studies, they have over 10,000 5-star reviews, and they've been recognized as a leader in skin longevity, so it feels a lot more grounded in real research than some of the other skincare products out there.

• 36:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep, born from over a decade of longevity research, OneSkin's OS1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age. And for a limited time, you can try OneSkin with 15% off using code CRIMEWEEKLY at onescan.co/crimeweekly. One more time, that's 15% off at onescan.co with code CRIMEWEEKLY. And after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you.

• 37:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  So not long after Neil went to prison, Liz moved to Nebraska and had another child, this time a daughter. Now, very little is known about who the girl's father was. What we do know is that when the daughter was around two years old, Liz started dating a man named Dirk. Not long after they got together, Liz got pregnant again. So Dirk later told author Leslie Ruhl that he didn't particularly like Liz because she was extremely jealous, but he wanted to stay together for the sake of the baby. Okay, so here's, let me break this down. Liz moves to Nebraska, she's pregnant again.

• 37:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I need a Venn diagram for this.

• 37:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  We don't really know who the father of this, this daughter was. Then she dates Dirk, gets pregnant again by Dirk. So now technically, over the course of just a few years, she has dated Ray, Neil, and then Cody was allegedly Ray's son, but she was also dating Neil, and now she gets pregnant by someone else, and then she's not dating that person anymore, she's dating Dirk, and then she gets pregnant by Dirk. So it, it almost kind of feels like maybe does Liz feel like the way to trap these men or get them connected to her is by having a child with them?

• 38:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely.

• 38:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 38:22Derrick Levasseur?

  100%.

• 38:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 38:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Either that, or she just doesn't believe in contraception. That's also an option as well. Like, maybe, I mean, maybe she's just out there and she's just like, oh, oh, you know, she, we're all adults here. She's just maybe a really bad at the pullout method. I don't know.

• 38:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know, man, because back in the day before there was contraception, you know, there would be, women knew. They were like, hey, I can't have 55 kids, you know, like, we can't afford it. It's the Great Depression, whatever. Like, they knew how to make sure that those things wouldn't happen. And they, they were certain methods. Like, if you, if you don't want to get pregnant, there's, it's,

• 38:58Derrick Levasseur?

  There's a thing called birth control.

• 38:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and condoms and things like that. But there's also other things you can do, right? There's other things you can do.

• 39:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Last time I checked, it works pretty good, too.

• 39:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and yes, accidents happen, but this doesn't seem like accidents.

• 39:10Derrick Levasseur?

  This is not, no, exactly.

• 39:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I don't,

• 39:11Derrick Levasseur?

  It's like 90, what's success rate for birth control? Like 97% or something like that?

• 39:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know. Like, if you have to be taking it correctly and stuff, but,

• 39:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not even that, like, there's the morning after pill and things like that, so. I know, I feel like there's gonna be, of course, people who are like yelling at me and mad because I say you don't get pregnant. I don't, I don't mean people don't get pregnant if they don't want to. I mean that like they don't get pregnant this often if they don't want to in this short amount of time.

• 39:37Derrick Levasseur?

  If you get pregnant once and it's an accident, you probably learn from that and take more precautions in the future. It doesn't seem like that's the case here.

• 39:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is three pregnancies in the course of a few years.

• 39:48Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and real quick, just because I don't want to be confused here. It was Ray, then Neil.

• 39:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ray and Neil.

• 39:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Then there was another person.

• 39:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Another dude, and then Dirk.

• 39:55Derrick Levasseur?

  And she got pregnant by him.

• 39:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  She got pregnant by other dude.

• 39:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Got, got rid of other dude and then Dirk.

• 40:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then got rid of other dude and then has, gets pregnant again with Dirk. Yeah.

• 40:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Got it. Got it.

• 40:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  So what, that's what I'm saying. Just a few handful of years, lots of pregnancies happening. Okay. But I'm, I'm sure somebody will still be mad at me. So, but remember Dirk told author Leslie Rule, "I didn't really like Liz, you know, she was very jealous, but I wanted to stay together for the sake of the baby." And isn't that kind of what Ray said too?

• 40:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

• 40:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  So as you would expect, after their son was born, things did not improve. Dirk stayed for as long as he could, but after around two years, he couldn't take it anymore. He moved out. A few weeks later, Dirk met someone named Melissa and they started dating. Almost immediately, Liz started showing up unexpectedly at Dirk's place. She also sent threatening messages, keyed Melissa's car, and did whatever she could to interrupt their relationship. Okay, so we've, we've seen this story before, but it kind of stops at the showing up unexpectedly at Dirk's place. We saw Liz show up unexpectedly at Dave's place when Dave was with Carrie. But there was really, you know, and then after this, Carrie got some, you know, had some spray painting happening on her car, but she didn't really think anything of it. But it

• 41:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  looks like with Liz and Carrie, Liz was almost like, okay, I'm not gonna do all this stuff as me because that didn't work out for me last time with Dirk. I'm gonna do it as Carrie and maybe she does something similar with Melissa because as time passed, things escalated into full-blown stalking. Liz enrolled in the same college program that Melissa was in and she got hair extensions so her hair looked more like Melissa's. She also bought a Mitsubishi, just like Melissa drove, and took it to the same auto shop Melissa used and told employees her name was Melissa. It was like Liz was trying to become Melissa. Dirk and the real Melissa were freaked out but undeterred. They continued dating and eventually got married and had a baby, but even that didn't stop Liz.

• 41:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  She continued stalking Melissa for years, escalating to the point of taking out a loan in Melissa's name. And eventually, out of nowhere, Liz stopped stalking Melissa. And it's unclear why, but if I had to guess, it's because she shifted her focus to someone else. But here's what I'm interested in. Was there police reports filed when Liz is stalking Melissa and doing all of this? Because this is pretty extreme, you know, like going in the same college program, taking out a loan in her name? At that point, you've reached criminal activity.

• 42:26Derrick Levasseur?

  That's significant, yeah.

• 42:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Were there police reports filed?

• 42:29Derrick Levasseur?

  If there had been, you would hope... Now, here's the thing, even if there had been reports, if it's not something that rises to a level of a criminal matter where they take it to trial, she's not found guilty of anything, more than likely, these files, these reports, would be in this internal database. And unfortunately, and I don't even know the answer to solving this, but...

• 42:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because it wouldn't be the same city.

• 42:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so I'll just give an example where I'm from. So, we're talking about Providence, Rhode Island, but if you are in Newport, Rhode Island, which is a different police department, we don't have the connection to their internal databases. So even if there's a ton of history where if I searched her name at the time... And it's in that other database, it would not flag on my end. The only way to get that information would be to literally call around to every municipality in your state, if it even happened in your state. And that's like, it's impossible to do that. It's impossible to just say, do you have any, do you have any record for Stephanie Harlow? And then knowing that you could check every municipality, but if they, if she did something over in Connecticut

• 43:34Derrick Levasseur?

  or Massachusetts, you have to do those municipalities in those states as well.

• 43:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  And there's nothing that connects these, right?

• 43:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Unfortunately not.

• 43:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Should there be? Like with where we are, 2026 and AI and like all of that, like?

• 43:48Derrick Levasseur?

  It can be done. There's reasons it isn't, right? So there's a lot to it. And some of it is privacy, right? Like, well, some of it's logistics, right? Like different departments use different systems, like Central Falls uses IMC. I know that Providence uses, I believe, Guardian. Like there's all these different brands. It's almost like Google Drive, right? But the other issue is those databases will also contain files that aren't, that shouldn't be shared publicly. So you could have juvenile cases, cases involving women who don't want their information out there. And if you have someone who's nosy in another department, they would have access to that information. So there are certain reasons for it, because it's really hard to track who's going into your databases. But I agree with you. I wish

• 44:33Derrick Levasseur?

  there was a way to quickly identify if someone else has had contact with other jurisdictions, because as of right now, only if it gets to the level of NCIC, right? Which is our national crimes database, where if they've been arrested or there's a restraining order, would you have the ability to search that?

• 44:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, because this helps with your pattern recognition, right? So if what was happening with Liz was happening with Liz, and what was happening with Carrie was happening with Carrie, and the police had looked into Liz, and they were like, oh, hey, she stalked an ex-boyfriend. And then she took over his new girlfriend's identity and did this. And it's like, this is the same thing that's happening that Carrie is doing, but nobody's heard from Carrie. You know, this would have made this a lot quicker and easier. So it feels like with technology, the way it is today, like there should be some way to put a bridge between these local police departments.

• 45:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Municipalities. I will say, when I was leaving in 2017,

• 45:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Other departments that had the same program, IMC, there was something where you could put it in a different search, where you could see the reference number and call them.

• 45:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then be like, hey,

• 45:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Hey.

• 45:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is there, I got this happening. Is anything similar like that in your database?

• 45:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, you're, it's even like if I have you come into my station and I type your name in for a report. When I type your name in for a report, it would say to me, hey, uh, Newport Police Department has had an interaction with Stephanie. Here's the case number. If I wanted to look into it, I could call over there and say, hey, Detective Levasseur, can you pull up this case number for me? I'm working with Mrs. Harlow and I wanna, I wanna see if there's anything there that I should be aware of. Um, so there was something in 2017, but again, being on different systems, it's hard to connect everyone.

• 46:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, for things like this, I understand privacy reasons and all the other things you gave up for things like this.

• 46:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 46:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  That would have made things a lot easier, right?

• 46:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, let's be honest. I don't want to go off on a, a, a tangent here, but you have cops that aren't doing the right things, right? You have some stalker cops.

• 46:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're gonna talk about one of them in a second, yeah.

• 46:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. So, and I don't even, I haven't even read the script, but there's stalker cops out there where they got a girlfriend in another municipality and they're running, they're checking her name to make sure she's not out with anybody or having interactions with someone.

• 46:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  True, yeah.

• 46:42Derrick Levasseur?

  So that's like the other issue for this too, like not all cops are good and they're using these systems to, for bad reasons. So it, it's a lot. It's a lot.

• 46:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, this is kind of where we talk about like Liz stop stalking Melissa. We don't know why, but we do know in the fall of 2010, Liz was in her mid 30s and dating Todd Butterbough. And we know that name because he worked in the IT department for the sheriff's office. And Liz told Todd that men had mistreated her and used her in the past. So she had become disillusioned with relationships. And Todd was like, not me, not me, Liz.

• 47:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Poor baby. I got you.

• 47:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  I am the exception, not the rule. I will never hurt you. He said he would be different. And as far as he knew, they then started an exclusive, monogamous relationship. He had no idea that Liz was seeing other men. Men at the same time and would continue doing so throughout the entirety of their relationship. And like she had with other men before him, Liz quickly showed Todd her jealousy and her insecurities. But because she said she'd been mistreated in the past, Todd tried to be understanding and he brushed a lot of it off. Todd felt so bad for Liz that he often paid her bills and watched her kids at night. While she said she was working her house cleaning business.

• 48:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, man. Todd.

• 48:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  I kind of feel bad.

• 48:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Todd again played, bud.

• 48:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kind of feel bad for Todd.

• 48:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Todd.

• 48:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, man.

• 48:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's like, I'm gonna go clean some houses.

• 48:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she's cleaning something.

• 48:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why, why you need Todd to pay your bills if you have, if you have your own business? Jeez Louise.

• 48:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Hey, maybe she was cleaning houses, but the houses of the other guy she was dating.

• 48:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm sure she was cleaning houses. I'm sure she had a French maid outfit and everything.

• 48:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, man.

• 48:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's why, that's why Dave liked Liz so much. She was the best house cleaner there ever was. Uh, so Todd Butterbough and Liz, they never moved in together though, at least not during this timeframe. Then in the summer of 2012, Liz met Dave Krupa on a dating website and she started seeing him too. And then you gotta look at like Todd Butterbough, right? He works in IT for a sheriff's department. And he's like, just so trusting and he's not using his IT skills to check on Liz and see if she's on dating sites. He just blindly believes her like you should be able to do in a relationship. I feel bad for him. So obviously Liz kept this relationship a secret from Todd Butterbough while at the same time pressuring Dave to date her exclusively.

• 49:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  But Dave and Todd were not the only men in the picture. Liz was dating multiple men at once. And during that same time period, she also spent months catfishing a woman online while pretending to be a man. She is out of her mind. Liz was so convincing that she let this woman to believe she was in a committed, loving relationship. And even convinced the woman to send nude photos to Liz, who she thought was like her male boyfriend. And this is just another example of how manipulative Liz could be and also like just messing with people for the fun of it. Kind of seems like, right?

• 49:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 49:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, like. Did you want Dave to be exclusive with you? Or was it a game you were playing to see if you could make someone who didn't want to be in a committed relationship, be in a committed relationship with you, only for you to be like, psych, I'm dating like 12 other guys? Like, what's the, the thing here? What's the, what's the motive? Why would you catfish a woman online and make her think you were a man that was in love with her?

• 50:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, she's a sick individual.

• 50:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  It seems like she gets a kick out of it, right?

• 50:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, there's a gratification there that is not normal. She's, there's some enjoyment in this. I think like the, the anxiety that comes with it, like the, oh, I could get caught type of thing. She probably embraces it. I don't know. I'll also say, and I'm quick to judge the appearances of men. I'm a little bit more cautious with women, but I just gotta say, I was looking up Liz a little while ago while you were talking and I'm, I'm not seeing it. I'll just say that. I'm not seeing why all these men are like so apt to, to sleep with her and have kids with her. I, I'm not seeing it. You guys can be the judge for yourself when you look it up, but not my, not my type. That's for sure. Just saying. I see your face, you're like cringing.

• 51:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I just, I don't know. I don't know how to like, I don't know how to say this without making everyone sound bad, but remember the guy who was in our comment section and he was like, men will take sex? And then if they didn't, you know, the weirdo, I was like, you're a weirdo dude?

• 51:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 51:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's a lot of men like that where like,

• 51:23Derrick Levasseur?

  It doesn't matter about looks.

• 51:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  It doesn't matter.

• 51:26Derrick Levasseur?

  That's fair.

• 51:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're so sexually driven, they're so lustful. It doesn't matter to them. Like there's no discernment and I don't, I'm not, I'm not trying to talk negatively about men and I'm sure.

• 51:37Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't get uncomfortable in my chair.

• 51:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you're like, you're like, I have discernment.

• 51:42Derrick Levasseur?

  I have to like defend this somehow.

• 51:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not trying to speak badly about men, but like, once again, and we talked about this, I think in episode one of this case. For women, I like to believe, at least for me, like, there has to be more than like a physical attraction. There has to be some sort of like, I'm safe with you.

• 51:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Emotionally driven in some way.

• 52:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  We vibe on like, a different level. Like, there is a relationship here where I feel like we are, where there's multiple things connecting us. For the sex to be good, right? Otherwise, it's just like, random sex. And then like, but, but men don't care. They like, they, random sex is fine, for men. A, a lot of men, not, or some,

• 52:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Allegedly.

• 52:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Some men, allegedly. I'm not trying to speak in generalities, but, yeah, they don't care. Liz was down for anything, alright?

• 52:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Here's, here's, here's my gripe. There may be people I know of who have had random encounters with a woman, and the sex is good, so you'll keep doing it, but a- as soon as there's a problem, it's not worth it anymore. It's like, okay, you know what? Not that good. Where with Liz, once these behaviors started showing themselves, I would think that, at that point, you'd be like, you know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna step away. I wasn't that attracted, I wasn't that into it anyways. My, I don't know why they kept coming back, including Dave. I don't know why they kept coming back. Maybe-

• 52:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cause she was putting it out there. They can't-

• 52:59Derrick Levasseur?

  So it was just that good?

• 53:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  These freaking men, they can't say no, when it's right there.

• 53:03Derrick Levasseur?

  It was just convenient?

• 53:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  They don't even have to work for it. The, men used to be hunters, where it was like, the whole, um, you know, like, like motivation, and the feeling of success afterwards was like, I went out and I got something, like a, a good game that was worth getting, and it, and it was challenging. And now, these men, they want princess treatment. They just want everything served up to them on a platter. And it doesn't matter if it's, if it's a steak being served to them on a platter, or some like, McDonald's chicken nuggets that we don't even know are real meat, to be honest.

• 53:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Not Liz being a chicken nugget, not even a real chicken nugget. Not even a Chick-fil-A chick, chicken nugget.

• 53:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, Liz is a McDonald's chicken nugget. You don't really know where it comes from, but you're hungry, so why the hell not? You know, why would I wanna cook something, and go out and, and pick some vegetables, and hunt a boar, when I can just eat these fake chicken nuggets that are, are presented to me and appear suddenly in front of me?

• 53:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh no.

• 53:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is, and listen, I, I don't like to talk badly about people in general, but if, if social media has taught me anything, men these days, man, they just don't care.

• 54:06Derrick Levasseur?

  They're, they're, the girl was hot, so they put up with it, but like, I don't know.

• 54:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  They put up with it maybe in a relationship way.

• 54:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 54:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  But these men don't want her for a relationship, you know, but.

• 54:16Derrick Levasseur?

  They just want a chicken nugget.

• 54:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  When she, when they come over to their, to her house and she's jumping on them and they're like, well, it's here, the chicken nuggets here and I am kind of hungry. I mean, I just ate, but I could eat again. It's, this is why men are, are too driven by sex and lust now. And it's, it's a problem. It's a problem. Okay. I don't respect it. I don't respect it. Anyways, yeah, this is, you know, Liz is manipulative, but men, a lot of men are easy. Man, you see men, and you see this in the celebrity world. These men, Jude Law and Sienna Miller is the perfect example. Jude Law had no business ever being with

• 54:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Sienna Miller. She's a goddess and he cheats on her anyways. He cheats on her anyways with the nanny. Okay. They just want their egos to be fed. They just want to know that somebody wants what's between their legs and it makes them feel good about themselves because they don't have self-esteem and they don't have confidence and it's gross and it's not.

• 55:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Your honor, I object.

• 55:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's gross.

• 55:23Derrick Levasseur?

  I object, Your Honor.

• 55:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  It has nothing to do with the woman. It has to do with how they feel about themselves.

• 55:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Two percent of the men watching this show, I'm here for you guys.

• 55:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Look at Jude Law now, okay? You could have still been with Sienna Miller, who is still a goddess, but you messed up because you.

• 55:38Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sure Jude's doing all right.

• 55:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, if you say so.

• 55:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Jude's a good looking guy.

• 55:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Jude Law now?

• 55:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Listen.

• 55:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Listen, Jude Law in the day. He could get it.

• 55:50Derrick Levasseur?

  It's called, it's called aging, Stephanie. We all do it.

• 55:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  But he didn't age well. Now, Henry Cavill aged well.

• 55:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Jude Law is a lot older than Henry Cavill. We're getting off.

• 55:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Jude Law's hairline ran away with his marriage.

• 56:01Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, listen, it happens. It happens.

• 56:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I don't like, I don't, I don't, I don't respect it. So, yeah. It's like when men cheat on their beautiful, gorgeous goddess wives with women who it's just like they're throwing themselves at them and they're just like there. It's like, what are you doing? But, you know, that's, that's what men do. It's a man thing. And I'm not saying.

• 56:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Hey, we're talking about Liz, alright?

• 56:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not saying it's just a man thing. I'm, I'm sure some women.

• 56:24Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know how this came up.

• 56:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm sure some women do it too. I'm sorry. It is mostly a self-esteem confidence issue, but men are more driven by sex, I think.

• 56:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Cause we, Liz is the, is the bad guy here.

• 56:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Liz is definitely the bad guy here.

• 56:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 56:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm sorry, don't get it twisted. Liz is definitely the bad guy. Okay.

• 56:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Just making sure.

• 56:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, we know that Liz is out here manipulating men, catfishing and manipulating women. She's just doing it for the thrill of it. But Liz's behavior would only escalate when Dave started dating Carrie Farver in late October of 2012. And just like she had done with Dirk and Melissa years earlier, Liz did whatever she could to interfere with Dave and Carrie's relationship. She called Dave incessantly while he was on dates, showed up at his apartment demanding her things, vandalized Carrie's car. And two weeks into Carrie and Dave seeing each other, Carrie started staying with Dave for her work project. Now detectives Doty and Davis believed that was the fact that kind of pushed Liz to the breaking point, right? Because in their minds, stalking and harassing Carrie the way she had other victims was no longer enough.

• 57:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because now it seems like Dave is committing to Carrie in a way that he never wanted to do with Liz. And the detectives believed Liz decided she had to get rid of Carrie. And that's exactly what happened on the morning of November 13th. Then Liz had to cover up the murder and so she began impersonating and stalking Carrie. So, we've talked about a lot here. We've had some good stimulating conversations that will probably get one or both of us canceled.

• 57:53Derrick Levasseur?

  I feel like I got undressed for a minute there. Jesus.

• 57:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I have opinions.

• 57:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Clearly.

• 57:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Let's take a quick break. We'll breathe. You can resettle in your seat. We'll be right back.

• 58:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Get comfortable again.

• 58:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So using her Carrie impersonation, Liz contacted multiple people in Carrie's life. We know this, including Carrie's mom Nancy, Carrie's son Max, and of course Dave. And for around six weeks, though, Liz did not use the impersonation to contact anyone in her own life, like in Liz's life. But that changed on January 1st, 2013, when she decided to take things a step further and she started texting and emailing her own boyfriend, Todd. Now, the messages claimed Carrie was one of Liz's friends and that Liz had given her Todd's information in case she ever needed an emergency contact. And Todd thought the whole thing was strange and he asked Liz about it and Liz told him that she and Carrie were friends and said it was completely fine for them to talk.

• 58:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Weird. Now, of course, Todd had no idea that Carrie was really Liz and over the next nine days, the two exchanged more than 200 texts. Most of the messages from the Carrie profile were flirtatious and critical of Liz, saying things like she was a bad girlfriend and Todd deserved better. The whole situation was bizarre, but when Avis and Doty reviewed those conversations, they believed Liz had a plan. In their minds, she was trying to get Todd emotionally invested in Carrie so he would stop demanding so much attention from Liz. That way Liz could focus more of her time on Dave. This feels like hard work, really?

• 59:34Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree that that's what she's trying to do. She's trying to basically get rid of him, putting him on, putting him on Carrie.

• 59:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  I was kind of trying to, like, maybe she's trying to see if Todd will, like, engage and will, like, talk crap about Liz and, like, flirt with Carrie.

• 59:50Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sure that's part of it. And if she did, then maybe Liz would want him more again.

• 59:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, right?

• 59:54Derrick Levasseur?

  But I think that was part of it. I think it's like trying to put him on Carrie, also trying to fish to see if he talks shit about her. All of it. I think it's all encompassing.

• 1:00:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why don't you just break up with Todd? If, I mean, I guess he's paying her bills.

• 1:00:05Derrick Levasseur?

  He's a sicko.

• 1:00:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's paying her bills and watching her kids so she can do her house cleaning jobs, so.

• 1:00:09Derrick Levasseur?

  And by the way, if he, if he quote unquote emotionally cheats on her with Carrie, now she has an argument to say, oh, you need to take care of me. You betrayed my trust. I gave you permission to talk to her, not flirt with her.

• 1:00:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why would Todd flirt with Carrie if, if Liz told her Carrie was her friend? Like, why wouldn't he think he was being set up, I guess?

• 1:00:29Derrick Levasseur?

  I would definitely be like, something ain't right here. Yeah, this is definitely a setup.

• 1:00:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  So by this point, Liz needed as much free time as possible because stalking Dave and herself had essentially become a full-time job. She was sending dozens and dozens of texts and emails every single day, using various phone numbers and more than 40 email addresses. Digital forensics administrator Anthony Kava determined that some messages had been scheduled in advance through apps, so Liz could be physically with Dave while making it appear that both of them were receiving threatening messages from Carrie at the exact same time. Then, there was everything else she had to keep up with. Vandalizing property at Dave's place and her own, showing up to jiggle doorknobs, throwing bricks through windows, doing whatever she needed to do to make it seem like Carrie had shown up and caused problems.

• 1:01:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And this was a lot, and it wasn't really working the way Liz wanted. No matter what she did, Dave would not commit to being with her exclusively. He continued dating other women and maintaining an amicable relationship with his ex, Amy, all of which made Liz very angry because her methods weren't working. But once again, it's like, I know I'm trying to logically make sense of a person who's not being logical, but it doesn't seem like you really want committed relationships, and when you have them, they are a burden to you. So is this just a game? Is this a game to just, once again, like, see how many people you can collect who fall in love with you, only so you can be the one to be like, "Uh, you're too much"? You know, like...

• 1:01:58Derrick Levasseur?

  I definitely think that's part of it. You know, you talked about men, and like, they're the same, you know, men can be the same way where it's just about like, how many women can you sleep with? Right? It's like an ego thing. So that could be something here, too, as well. It's not just, it's not just as specific to men, women can do it as well.

• 1:02:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I suppose, yeah. I mean, they definitely can, but... Is, I don't know, but have you ever known a-

• 1:02:23Derrick Levasseur?

  She's like collecting infinity stones here.

• 1:02:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, have you ever known a man to do that much work? Because-

• 1:02:27Derrick Levasseur?

  No, probably not this much work, but I do think there's something to be said where it's like-

• 1:02:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Men, I think they don't want you to be committed. Like, they don't want you to fall in love, so they're gonna do the most to make sure that doesn't happen.

• 1:02:37Derrick Levasseur?

  But I, but I'll also say, in your defense, or women's defense, there are men who are like, don't want you until you don't want them.

• 1:02:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 1:02:45Derrick Levasseur?

  And so it's like, they just want it to be casual, but as soon as you start dating someone seriously, now they want you every day.

• 1:02:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, yeah, then when they, then when they have you, they, yeah.

• 1:02:54Derrick Levasseur?

  You're disposable.

• 1:02:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so.

• 1:02:55Derrick Levasseur?

  So it does work. I don't think it's gender specific.

• 1:02:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is weird to me. This is weird to me. So during the first week of January, Liz escalated things, taking Carrie's Ford Explorer and parking it at Dave's apartment complex. Now, it's unclear where it had been before that point, and I would be very interested to know. There's still so much about what Liz did that we don't know. It's unclear where she'd hidden Carrie's Ford Explorer, but either way, we know she wiped it down to remove fingerprints, but we know she missed that one spot, the mint container. So like we talked about earlier in the series, the Explorer was found on January 8th, and that same day, Liz and Dave went to the sheriff's office and let detectives download their phones.

• 1:03:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, this was back when the police still believed Carrie was the stalker and Liz was a victim, so they didn't do anything with that data, even though they should have. Until detectives Avis and Doty took over, and when they were investigating, they learned that just one day after Liz had her phone downloaded, she went to lunch with Todd Butterbough. So during the conversation, when she's at lunch with Todd, Liz mentioned for the first time that someone had been harassing and stalking her, but she didn't mention Carrie's name. Because remember, as far as Todd knows, Carrie and Liz are friends, okay, and he's talking to both of them. Now, despite having just told the sheriff's office one day earlier that Carrie was to blame for everything, Liz was not telling this to Todd.

• 1:04:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  All Liz told Todd was that the detectives were helping her and had downloaded her phone. Then she asked a question. What exactly could detectives get off her phone?

• 1:04:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And probably this was a question she should have asked Todd before she gave the police her phone and let them download the information off of it, but Todd obviously didn't think much of it because he's not really understanding the depth of what's happening. So he answered and he told Carrie and he told Liz what they could get off of her phone. But not long after that lunch, the original detective on the case brought Todd in for an interview because they had found out he was talking to Carrie and they wanted to warn him about her.

• 1:04:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, Jesus, this is, I understand now why this is three parts. This is, this is, the fact that this hasn't been a Netflix documentary is crazy.

• 1:05:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  It might have been. It was a book. I mean,

• 1:05:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, well, that would make sense.

• 1:05:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. They're like, they bring Todd and then they're not like, Todd, did you do anything? Or, you know, did you do anything to Carrie? Or they're like, we gotta warn you about this girl. And I wonder, like, did they ask him, how did you meet, you know, Carrie? And then he would have said, well, my girlfriend Liz, you think that things are going to be put together at this point. But according to Todd, detectives told him at this time that his girlfriend Liz had been cheating on him with Dave Krupa. So the detectives at this time knew that Liz was dating Todd and Todd was talking to Carrie and Liz was also dating Dave and they're still not thinking this is weird? Wouldn't you at this point think this is weird?

• 1:05:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I would like to think I would. Yeah, I'd like to hope that if I were the one working this case, I'd say something is off here.

• 1:06:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. Like, hey, what's, who's the person in common with all these people? Person in common with Dave, person in common with Carrie, person in common with Todd, it's Liz.

• 1:06:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's what I was saying earlier. We need like basically a Venn diagram because they all intersect and they all the crossover where they all meet in the middle is Liz.

• 1:06:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the police told Todd that Dave had briefly dated Carrie and then Carrie began stalking him and Liz. And that had gone on for weeks. So Dave and Liz came up with a plan to redirect Carrie's attention towards Todd so Carrie would fall for him and leave Dave and Liz alone. And that's why Carrie started reaching out to Todd and flirting with him. So now the police are like, sorry, Todd, you're basically like, not only are you being lied to and betrayed, but the people who are lying to you and betraying you, not only are doing that, but they directed a stalker in your direction.

• 1:06:57Derrick Levasseur?

  And that might be something too to this as well, where conversations were happening with Liz and Dave, where they were talking about, you know, working together to push Carrie on to Todd. And so it was something, again, Liz could bond with Dave over, like, oh, look what we're doing. We're putting this, this crazy person on Todd, not telling Dave that, hey, I'm also sleeping with Todd, and obviously not telling Todd, I'm sleeping with Carrie's boyfriend, Dave, who's, you know, Carrie's now longer here. Like, the web here is crazy.

• 1:07:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree. It's getting pretty, getting pretty tangled. Now, obviously, I want to, I want to be really clear, this is based on what Todd told Leslie Rule, so that she could write this book. I want to say, take it with a grain of salt, but something about the, the way the investigation was initially handled by the initial detectives, I kind of believe it, you know, I kind of believe it.

• 1:07:52Derrick Levasseur?

  There might be some creative liberties taken to make yourself look better. I think a human instinct is a lot to do that. And Todd might be looking at this after the fact, going, I'm going to manipulate or maybe alter a couple of things, or maybe from his perspective, he just felt like it was different. But I think that's understandable to have that, like, reaction to want to protect yourself and your, your name. And so, yeah, I would listen to what he had to say, but understand, I think it's important that you mentioned that, that that's the source of it. I think that's something that should be considered.

• 1:08:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, absolutely. But it's, you know, something to be considered, but also, this is crazy. And we know the original detectives didn't really do the best job. So it kind of just seemed like they thought Carrie was this crazy stalker. So that's the way they would approach it.

• 1:08:36Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree.

• 1:08:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, the original detectives could not have been more wrong about what was really happening. But obviously, Todd didn't know that. At that point, he was mostly upset that Liz, who he had been dating for more than two years, was cheating on him. That was kind of the main. Thing in his head. So he confronted Liz and she immediately denied everything. She claimed detectives had been wrong. And she said she had dated Dave years earlier, but they were just friends now. And then she flipped things around on Todd and asked like, how could you even believe something like that about me? You know, if you think I'm cheating on you, then you're just as crazy as Carrie. Who she now claimed was her stalker, not her friend. So it's like you crazy people deserve each other. You should be together, you know? Like, how could you even think that about me?

• 1:09:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now Todd chose to believe Liz, but as time went on, he started feeling like something wasn't right. And it didn't help that Liz was a pretty terrible girlfriend. She was cold towards him. She didn't seem to care much about him at all. Mostly Todd felt like he was there to help pay her bills and take care of her kids because that's what he was there for. And then as the summer of 2013 approached, Liz started telling Todd she was struggling financially and she might end up homeless. And Todd had already spent years helping to pick up the slack, but this time he did not immediately step in to help.

• 1:09:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Good for you, buddy.

• 1:09:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Todd's all right. Yeah.

• 1:09:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Good for you, Todd.

• 1:09:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, it feels like as soon as he's like, for sure. You know, something's not right. Like, what are these house cleaning jobs you're going on? He was starting to listen to his instincts.

• 1:10:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Better late than never.

• 1:10:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  So without Todd's help, things got so bad that Liz ended up receiving a 30 day eviction notice. Around the same time, Dave was pulling away from Liz in a big way. So suddenly Liz became much warmer towards Todd. She smiled more, listened more closely when he talked and was more affectionate than she had been in a long time. To Todd, it genuinely seemed like things between them were finally getting better. God, Todd. Why? Now, because of that, because Todd thought that Liz was being nicer to him, he offered for Liz and the kids to move in with him. And Liz accepted, though she took her time moving things out of the old house, knowing the eviction process would likely drag on through August of 2013. So Liz is a con artist, essentially. She's a user and a con artist.

• 1:10:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, almost immediately after getting what she wanted, Liz went right back to being cold towards Todd. She didn't move into his bedroom and instead stayed in the basement. She rarely spoke to him. Unless she needed something and whenever Todd questioned the sudden shift and like her energy and her mood Liz reassured him they were still exclusive meanwhile Todd continued watching her kids at night while Liz supposedly worked her cleaning business except detectives Avis and Doty believed she really wasn't working much at all instead they believed Liz was spending time with Dave trying to convince him to be exclusive or continuing her impersonation of Carrie yes I don't think Liz was doing much house cleaning I agree with the detectives

• 1:11:28Derrick Levasseur?

  She didn't pick up a mop?

• 1:11:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, no.

• 1:11:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Not once.

• 1:11:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  She would probably like have cleaning jobs and she'd go in which first of all what cleaning jobs are you doing at night unless they're offices okay?

• 1:11:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Probably okay.

• 1:11:40Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a good point.

• 1:11:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  If they are offices she's probably going in sitting there not doing anything just like you know bringing her laptop in so she can impersonate Carrie and then the next day the businesses are like hey Liz you know were you here yesterday because you invoiced us but it doesn't look like anything was clean and she would gaslight them into believing that she had cleaned the office and that she'd be like I'm really offended that you think I would charge you for something I didn't do like how could you believe that about me?

• 1:12:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I do think that's an important point to make here like we were talking about these quote unquote house cleaning visits and I'm sure a lot of them were to meet up with other men but I also think it's important to mention that this was a full-time job her doing all the stalking and planning everything so she can't do that with Todd present so there were probably times where she left to go quote unquote clean houses but in reality she's somewhere in a library or at a gas station somewhere on a laptop on her phone making all these moves.

• 1:12:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, or you know she was scheduling messages so that they would show up when she was-

• 1:12:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Todd's not in on it Dave's not in on it so she has to do that when she's alone and so she was probably using the public wifi to send a lot of this stuff.

• 1:12:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh for sure or even you know when she was at her own house because remember she still was like taking her time she could have been doing it at Todd's house because it doesn't sound like they were sharing a bed or really sharing a life at all right so she could have been doing a lot of that at night when she should have been in bed with her boyfriend but she was you know in the basement like a little troll because that's where internet trolls stay anyways the basement. And that's what she was doing. So now we have detectives Avis and Doty starting to recognize and notice a pattern. Whenever Dave pulled away again, Carrie would suddenly do something big, vandalize properties, send threats, or create some new crisis. Then Dave and Liz would end up pulled back together because of their mutual fear and frustration surrounding Carrie. And so by mid-August of 2013, Dave's pulling away again. So this

• 1:13:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  time, this is when Liz decides to go big. This is when she sets fire to her house. But remember, she's already moving out of her house because she's getting evicted. So there's not like, a ton of stuff on the line here, besides the fact that she left her pets there, which I think she left her pets there to make it seem like it was serious. I think she intended, she could have moved her pets out and brought them to Todd's house by now.

• 1:13:53Derrick Levasseur?

  There's also, when we go back and we look at everything now, these pets, in her mind, may have been viewed as an inconvenience, right? Maybe having to move these pets into Todd's house, or anybody's house for that matter, maybe something that was a little bit of a barrier to entry in doing so. So because they were inconvenient, she decided to dispose of them. And when you think about that, in relation to her history, it brings me back to Cody. It brings me back to him being viewed, in her eyes, as an inconvenience, and having to get rid of him.

• 1:14:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, she doesn't-

• 1:14:30Derrick Levasseur?

  If you're not, if you're not adding value to my life, you're disposable.

• 1:14:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Doesn't really seem like-

• 1:14:35Derrick Levasseur?

  If she's killing her kids, she's definitely willing to kill some pets.

• 1:14:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  That was dark, Derek. That was dark.

• 1:14:41Derrick Levasseur?

  But it makes sense.

• 1:14:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Derrick Levasseur?

  If you're not contributing to what I want to do, I'm gonna get rid of you.

• 1:14:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, like I said, she sets her house on fire, but it's not really her house, because she's being evicted. And detectives believed that Liz had doused the home in gasoline, set it on fire, and once again, to make herself look like the biggest victim possible, she didn't take her four pets out beforehand, right? Because, yeah, you'd look as an arson investigator and be like, you're already moving everything out, you already moved everything important out. You know, was this like to get back because you were being evicted? Because then it might look like that. But to leave her dogs in there, most normal people are gonna be like, who would do that to their own pets?

• 1:15:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Who would do that, exactly.

• 1:15:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oof. All right, now that it's got, now that it's got dark, let's take our last break. We'll be right back.

• 1:15:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So after the fire, obviously Liz blamed everything on Carrie and called Dave for comfort. She told Todd about the fire too. And with him, she played the victim, saying that her pets had died, her belongings were destroyed, even her cleaning equipment had been ruined. So, well, she could no longer work because she can't be a cleaning lady. She can't be a fake cleaning lady with no equipment. And it gave Liz an excuse to continue relying on Todd financially and also more time to focus fully on her mission of getting Dave to be with her and only her. And she absolutely took advantage of the time. Liz continued stalking Dave and herself through texts, emails, vandalism, and in-person incidents. Even after Dave moved to Council Bluffs, she kept it going. Now, around the

• 1:16:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  same time that Dave moved, Avis and Doty began reopening Carrie's case and uncovered everything Liz had been doing. And Liz had absolutely no idea she was under the microscope, so she kept going right on with business as usual. But by the summer of 2015, Todd was done with the games and asked Liz to move out. She refused, saying she couldn't afford it. They broke up, but Liz stayed anyway. Todd later said he let her stay because he was afraid of what she might do to his house if he forced her out. So Todd recognizes the red flags, but now he feels almost like what trapped, basically. Like, what is she gonna do? You know, she's not a stable person. He kind of sees this. Now, at the same time, Dave was getting fed up too, more than usual. Liz was still incredibly jealous, especially

• 1:16:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  when it came to Dave's amicable relationship with his ex, Amy. And things finally came to a head around Thanksgiving of 2015, when Dave helped take care of Amy's sick baby, which wasn't his baby. This was a baby with the person she was with after Dave. But he did this instead of spending time with Liz. And after Liz freaked out on him, Dave told her it was over, and this time, he meant it. So a few days later, Dave came home and discovered someone had broken into his apartment and stolen his gun. His shotgun, which had been stored right next to the handgun, had not been touched, and nothing else was missing. So Dave reported the theft to police in Council Bluffs, but detectives Avis and Doty were with the Potawatomi County Sheriff's Office. So at this time, they had no idea the gun had been stolen.

• 1:17:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  And see, this is what I'm talking about.

• 1:17:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that that communication.

• 1:17:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Communication system.

• 1:17:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, there is. That's that is a problem that still goes on to this day. Where there could be something happening in neighboring towns or cities. And the other department not even know about.

• 1:17:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but would it have made sense for Avis and Doty? Knowing that Dave had moved to Council Bluffs and he was kind of involved in all of this. To notify the Council Bluffs Police Department and be like, hey, like keep it on the down low. But Dave and his girlfriend Liz are they kind of the focus of an investigation right now. We're keeping it under wraps. But if something goes down with Dave or Liz, or there's some stalking incidents or whatever, or he reports something to you, can you please give us a call?

• 1:18:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Possible. The the concern there would be they appear, at least from what we've been reading. Doty and Avis appear to be keeping this under wraps from everyone, as you had said earlier. They just don't trust anyone with it. They don't want to get him out. They don't want Liz being tipped off. So is it possible that at this point, they didn't know if Dave was in on it as well? I'm sure at some point, I know if I was working it, I would be considering the fact that Dave was an accomplice in all of this, especially because they're quote unquote, both being stalked. So my concern would be tipping off Dave, tipping off Liz by reporting something to this outside agency who I don't have a relationship with. And maybe it getting back to him, but I'm on board with you.

• 1:19:03Derrick Levasseur?

  It's like, there's got to be something where we can have access to that system, where we could put a flag out there that if this person's name pops up in your agency, or their address pops up in your agency. I, as a detective in a certain, you know, a neighboring agency will get a notification.

• 1:19:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, it just to say, like, even if you don't know if Dave's involved technically, he's still involved in some way. So like, if something happens or there's a new stalking incident that Liz is trying to attribute to Carrie, it would happen now in Council Bluffs where Dave lives. So they'd want to know about that, right?

• 1:19:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. So here's, here's the thing, and this has happened, right? The concern, and this is like, super deep layer, like, not something you're going to be see reported. In the news, but I've had cases where I've been working with a neighboring agency, right? And it's in their internal databases and uh uh overzealous or ambitious patrolman gets access to that. And they show up to a call for a drug dealer's house that I was investigating. And not realizing it, they say something stupid like, yeah, that's why narcotics in Central Falls are looking at you. We know what you're doing. Where's the drugs?

• 1:20:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you're saying if somebody says something stupid?

• 1:20:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, cuz they wanna make the, they wanna make the collar. They wanna get the arrest. So there now, there's also a problem where I've had incidents where we flag a house in a neighboring city. And again, some patrolmen who are trying to make names for themselves will start monitoring that house and driving by more consistently than they usually do. And they actually tip off the guy that we're looking at. So it's, it's a lot. I'm not saying it still shouldn't be done cuz there's risks with everything. Just looking at it from the outside, I agree with you. Like, there's gotta be better communication.

• 1:20:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and there should have been, but.

• 1:20:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, how that works, I don't know.

• 1:20:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  With a gun, you know?

• 1:20:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, that would be reported. That would be, that would be an NCIC, right? That would be in the system, but I'm with you. In a perfect world, we would develop a system where everyone can talk with everybody and it'd be just this sharing of information that would kept in-house and nobody who wouldn't or shouldn't have access to it wouldn't, you know? But then you have the Todd, Todds of the world who are in there and they're telling their girlfriend about things, you know, allegedly.

• 1:21:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  I gotta say, like, I give Todd credit because he's like, hey, we, she, he knew that Liz had given her phone to be downloaded to his unit, basically. And then the police were like, she's been cheating on you? And Liz was like, no, I haven't. He could have technically gone and checked the downloaded data from her phone, I think.

• 1:21:26Derrick Levasseur?

  He could have, but there might have been metadata showing he was in there and he knew that he would know that. Like, he's been tampering with evidence.

• 1:21:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but I mean, some men would have done that, not caring, you know?

• 1:21:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely. Yeah, no, there's, there's a lot there. There's a lot of. There's a lot of layers to it where we've already said a million times, not everyone working for a police department is doing the right thing. And who are they talking to? Who are they communicating with? If you have a family member or a friend of someone you're targeting in another neighborhood, another jurisdiction, they could tip them off. Now they see that you're looking at Derek. Hey Derek, listen, man, Central Falls PD is looking at you, man. You better, you better clean, clean it up. Like, things like that happen all the time.

• 1:22:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, things took a major turn just days later. Because now, of course, we have a gun being stolen. And this was on December 4th, when Liz showed up at the Potawatomi County Sheriff's Office, saying she wanted to file harassment report against Amy. So this is, this is Dave's ex, who he has kids with.

• 1:22:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 1:22:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Detective Avis actually ran into Liz while she was there. So he followed her out to the parking lot and told her he had been appointed to help with the case. Man, I love this guy.

• 1:22:32Derrick Levasseur?

  He's good. He's good.

• 1:22:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Then he followed her home to take the report. Now by that point, Avis knew quite a bit about Liz's life, including the fact that she was living with Todd Butterbough. But when he asked who lived in the house, Liz said it was just her and her children. Later in the interview, he asked again.

• 1:22:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, just setting her up.

• 1:22:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  But got the same answer. Also, Liz is probably like, hey, I can add another person to my collection of boyfriends. A police detective would be great.

• 1:22:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, man. Yeah.

• 1:22:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't let him know I have a boyfriend.

• 1:22:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. That could be part of it, right? But I also think it's part because she doesn't want him to know she's got someone on the inside.

• 1:23:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe. Or maybe she's like, I can't tell a guy that I might be flirting with that, that I have a boyfriend that I live with. Yeah.

• 1:23:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  So as Detective Avis took the report, Liz told him that for years, she believed Carrie was the person stalking her, the one who vandalized property, sent threatening messages, broke into homes, committed arson, ruined lives. But now Liz said she had realized Carrie was not responsible, and that it had to be Amy instead. And according to Liz, she came to this realization after Dave's gun was stolen, something that Detective Avis was hearing about for the first time. Liz said Amy had a key to Dave's place. So to her, it made more sense that Amy was the one who stole the gun. And on top of that, she pointed out that Carrie and Dave had only dated for a few weeks. So in her mind, it no longer made sense that Carrie would still be obsessed over him years later. Amy, on the other hand, was the mother of Dave's children and had been in his life for years.

• 1:23:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  But Liz, you said, you said it was Carrie, and she was sending you messages from her phone. So how did Amy get Carrie's phone? So later Detective Avis said he was fascinated by how quickly Liz shifted blame after spending years accusing Carrie, but he didn't push back. He's playing good cop, right? He played along. He acted as if he believed Amy could be responsible. And Liz told him that if detectives needed proof Amy was harassing her, she could provide it because her phone was full of threatening messages. Avis asked if he could download the phone and to his surprise Liz agreed.

• 1:24:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Brilliant.

• 1:24:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  So he downloaded everything. Before leaving, Avis told Liz he would talk to Amy about the harassment. He also gave her his number and told her to reach out if anything happened over the weekend.

• 1:24:40Derrick Levasseur?

  He was probably doing a little undercover flirting himself.

• 1:24:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, I think he was too. He was like, you can call me for anything over the weekend.

• 1:24:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 1:24:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Off business hours. Yeah.

• 1:24:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I love it.

• 1:24:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, he's seen her pattern, right?

• 1:24:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, he knows what she, she knows what she likes.

• 1:24:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  He knows what she likes. He knows what she's, what her, her whole like pattern and motivation is.

• 1:24:59Derrick Levasseur?

  And that flirtation may have been the reason she gave him the phone. Like, hey, more reason to talk with you.

• 1:25:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's like, if I see any pictures in there that I shouldn't, you know, I'll pretend I didn't.

• 1:25:10Derrick Levasseur?

  I'll look away.

• 1:25:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the very next day Liz texted Detective Avis additional messages she claimed were from Amy and Avis responded, acknowledged her concerns and reassured her that he would be speaking with Amy. Then just hours later, things took another dramatic turn. At 6:41 PM, police were dispatched to Big Lake Park in Council Bluffs, Iowa, the same city where Dave lived. When officers arrived, they found Liz sitting on the ground near the driver's side of the only vehicle in the parking lot. She had been shot in the left thigh. Liz was asked who shot her. She said it was Amy.

• 1:25:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  My God.

• 1:25:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow. Yeah, this is a sicko.

• 1:25:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're, you're calling your kids ugly, killing your own pets. Now you're shooting yourself? Holy sh- man.

• 1:26:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  And obviously

• 1:26:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Insane.

• 1:26:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Based on Liz's statements, because this isn't Padawatami Police Department, this is Council Bluffs. So based on Liz's statement, Council Bluffs Police went to Amy's house believing they would be arresting an attempted murderer. But that and everything else that happened next, we'll have to wait for part four, because we're not done yet. We're not done.

• 1:26:22Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I cannot believe by part four, we're ending with Liz on the ground, more than likely shot herself. And now she switched gears and Amy is the offender. This is wild. Yep.

• 1:26:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, cuz, cuz Carrie's not technically around to be a threat anymore, right? Amy's the clear and present threat to Liz, getting the love and commitment of a man that she doesn't even want love and commitment from. She just wants to say she could. This is crazy. I have, I have thoughts, but.

• 1:26:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I, I can't wait. Can't wait for part four. You were right. It's four parts. I want to end on a positive note real quick. I'm not going to say their last names, but an act of kindness happened this week with one of our, our two of our fans who are also Patreon members, and I just wanted to shout them out because it's incredible. Stephanie and Christina reached out to me. They unfortunately have some issues going on in the family, some health issues, and they're going to be unable to make Crime Con. We're currently at Crime Con, as you're probably seeing this. And instead of getting a refund, which they probably could have done, they gave the tickets away for free. I put it on my Instagram. They said, hey, we want two other people to experience this. Let me tell you, the passes are not cheap. So for them to do this, that's incredible. And I wanted to thank them

• 1:27:34Derrick Levasseur?

  and give them a personal shout out in the episode. They did not ask for it, but they deserve it. And the Patreon community we're building is incredible. We thank everybody for being over there. We're in the discussion boards. We have ad free episodes you can check out. We do the bonus episodes. We have our, our live that we do every single month with our Patreon members. In fact, we have one coming up, I think Monday. So we got that one coming up soon. And we just appreciate everybody over there. We love getting to interact with you guys. A shout out again to Christina and Stephanie for, for, for doing that. You didn't have to. And I was very, really. Proud of you to see that.

• 1:28:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's awesome.

• 1:28:11Derrick Levasseur?

  So that's gonna do it for us, guys. We're gonna be back next week for part four. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.

• 1:28:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.